Too Reliant On Giannis? Cavs Major Injuries - Central Division Preview

Summary

Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective

Episode: Too Reliant On Giannis? Cavs Major Injuries – Central Division Preview
Date: August 29, 2025
Host: Tim MacMahon (filling in for Windhorst), with Tim Bontemps and Dan McMahon

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Overview

In this episode, ESPN's crew dives into the NBA's Central Division ahead of the 2025-26 season, focusing on major injuries to Cleveland, the heavy reliance on Giannis in Milwaukee, and the shifting landscape for the Pacers, Pistons, and Bulls. They break down each team’s prospects, injury concerns, expectations, and notable offseason moves, all with their usual mix of insider knowledge and humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cleveland Cavaliers' Major Injuries and Implications

Timestamps: 02:26–13:37

• Darius Garland & Max Strus Injuries:

  • Garland underwent offseason surgery on his turf toe, likely sidelining him for the season's start.
    • "It's never good when two of your starters have foot surgery in the offseason." – Tim MacMahon (02:28)
  • Strus suffered a Jones fracture, with a best-case return to basketball activities in 3–4 months, but playing again before the All-Star break would be considered fortunate.
  • Comparison made to Kevin Durant’s prolonged recovery from a similar injury.

• Depth and Rotation Concerns:

  • Cavs in the luxury "second apron," limiting their moves.
  • Lonzo Ball, DeAndre Hunter, Dean Wade, Sam Merrill, and rookie Jaylon Tyson will be crucial in filling gaps, but many have injury histories themselves.
  • Emphasis on the need to keep Donovan Mitchell fresh after two postseasons of playoff fatigue.

• East as an Advantage:

  • "If this was the Western Conference...you'd probably have some real alarm bells going off." – Tim Bontemps (07:20)
  • Importance shifts from seeding to playoff readiness, echoing late-LeBron-years philosophy: more about health and less about standings.

2. Milwaukee Bucks: Giannis Reliance and Roster Concerns

Timestamps: 13:38–21:15, 23:09–24:32

• Offseason Moves:

  • Dame Lillard and Brook Lopez are out; Miles Turner is in.
  • Bucks “putting a massive burden on Giannis” as their sole high-level creator and engine.

• Health & Depth Worries:

  • Giannis has missed 15+ games most recent seasons and carries a heavy load both offensively and defensively.
  • Team is “projected to finish eighth or ninth” – a far cry from previous Bucks squads; any absence from Giannis makes them a bottom-5–6 roster.

• Outlook:

  • Best-case goal: Top-6 seed and a healthy Giannis in April.
  • “If they could finish in the top six, I think that's a very successful year.” – Tim Bontemps (20:45)
  • MVP case for Giannis possible if he stays healthy and lifts a mediocre roster ("sort of like the Russell Westbrook MVP season").

3. Indiana Pacers: Surviving Without Halliburton and Turner

Timestamps: 24:34–32:44

• Post-Halliburton, Post-Turner Reality:

  • Nemhardt steps up as starting PG; T.J. McConnell will play increased but still monitored minutes.
  • “Rick Carlisle’s come out and said Benedict Matheran will be in the starting lineup.” – Tim MacMahon (24:45)
  • Matheran is now extension-eligible—his inconsistency, on-ball-heavy play, and fit with Nemhardt are closely watched.
  • Pascal Siakam expected to have a greater scoring role.

• Development & Competitiveness:

  • Pacers have depth, including Isaiah Jackson, James Wiseman, draft picks Ben Sheppard and Jarace Walker.
  • “Indiana is not a team that we expect to be trying to lose games. They're going to want to make the playoffs... My hunch is they find a way to get in.” – Tim Bontemps (30:11)

4. Detroit Pistons: Tempering Expectations After Last Year’s Leap

Timestamps: 34:03–47:05

• Offseason and Roster Moves:

  • 47-win projection met with skepticism: “When you see a team have that kind of a leap, there's a bit of a consolidation the next season...they did lose some key pieces.” – Tim Bontemps (39:41)
  • Out: Malone Beasley, Tim Hardaway Jr.; In: Caris LeVert, Duncan Robinson, return of Jaden Ivey.
  • Emphasis on development for Jaden Ivey, Ausar Thompson, Ron Holland, and Jalen Duren.

• Cade Cunningham’s Emergence:

  • “Cade Cunningham was second team all NBA or third team all NBA last year. Made the all star team. Got some MVP votes...” – Tim MacMahon (42:25)
  • Piston’s trajectory “a wager on Cade Cunningham.”

• Extensions Looming:

  • Jaden Ivey and Jalen Duren both eligible, echoing past cautionary tales (e.g. Steph Curry’s pre-breakout extension).

5. Chicago Bulls: A Team Drifting, Awaiting a Tipping Point

Timestamps: 48:22–65:41

• Front Office & Direction:

  • Bulls have “about $85 million in expiring contracts this year,” but lack of strategic direction or discussion.
  • Vucevic quote from Eurobasket: “Fans just have to stay patient with the results...when [AK, the GM] got here I thought he made some very good moves...It just did not work out after that. Sometimes it is hard to figure out what to do next.” – read by Dan McMahon (54:02)
  • FO commended for not doubling down on mistakes (e.g. not overpaying Giddey).

• Josh Giddey Contract Stalemate:

  • Bulls are “negotiating against the qualifying offer” for RFA Giddey. (See full negotiation mechanics at 58:52–61:59.)
  • “It's not as simple as, well, there's no money out there — get the lowest number you can get him on and go forward. Doesn’t always necessarily work that way.” – Tim Bontemps (63:42)

• Kobe White’s Status:

  • On a team-friendly deal, likely to be traded for assets if Bulls get strategic, as extending him may not make financial sense.

• Fan Perspective:

  • “I think if you're a Bulls fan, you're rooting for as many losses as possible and a shot at AJ Daban or Darren.” – Tim Bontemps (64:54)
  • Silver lining: “They got a great broadcast. They got the best mascot in the league.” – Tim Bontemps (65:35)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Cavs' Injury Luck:
  “It's never good when two of your starters have foot surgery in the off season.”
  – Tim MacMahon (02:28)

• On Bucks’ Giannis Problem:
  “They're putting a massive burden on Giannis to be the sole engine of their team for 82 games. Any game Giannis doesn't play, they've got a bottom five, six roster.”
  – Tim Bontemps (15:54)

• On Pistons’ Expectations:
  “When you see a team have that kind of a leap, there's a bit of a consolidation the next season.”
  – Tim Bontemps (39:41)

• On Bulls’ Status:
  “Bulls have one winning season in the last nine years...just enough to not get a franchise-changing lottery pick.”
  – Tim MacMahon (56:45)

• On Chicago's Mascot Bragging Rights:
  “They’ve got the best mascot in the league...Benny the Bull is iconic.”
  – Tim Bontemps (65:41/66:14)

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Segment Timestamps

| Segment & Discussion | Start | End | |------------------------------------------------------------------------------|-----------|----------| | Cavs injury breakdown, depth issues, playoff outlook | 02:26 | 13:37 | | Bucks: Giannis reliance, rotation, seeding debate, MVP odds | 13:38 | 21:15 | | Bucks roster outlook, Pacers as next topic | 23:09 | 24:32 | | Pacers preview: Life without Halliburton/Turner, Matheran, Siakam | 24:34 | 32:44 | | Pistons: Projected win total skepticism, roster changes, player development | 34:03 | 47:05 | | Bulls: Asset hoarding, Giddey negotiations, Kobe White, mascot banter | 48:22 | 66:20 |

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Tone & Style

The episode is candid, fast-paced, and laced with banter, in typical Hoop Collective fashion. The analysts mix granular on-court breakdowns, front office analyses, and sharp-witted commentary (“laying the bricks” for excuses, lovable mascot debates). Regular call-backs to recent NBA history and the panel’s shared inside jokes make the talk both informative and highly entertaining.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode serves as a primer for the Central Division's storylines ahead of the 2025-26 NBA season. Injury fallout, offseason moves, and player development are viewed through both a stats-based and strategic lens. The Cavs’ depth and playoff strategy, the Bucks’ “Giannis-or-bust” approach, the Pacers’ and Pistons’ focus on development amidst roster flux, and the Bulls’ asset purgatory are all dissected with humor and candor, making this a must-listen (or -read) for anyone trying to understand the state of these five franchises as the NBA tips off again.

Transcript

[Tim Bontemps]

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[Tim MacMahon]

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on late Thursday evening. Later than normal for August, but, you know, it's the way it goes. Joining us from New York City, where he's solo dad this week and growing a beard to prove it. Tim on temps.

[Tim Bontemps]

That is true. Shout out to the Georgian national team. Huge win over Spain today. My old pal from the Brooklyn Nets, Tokos Angelia. Huge game. It's fun to watch those guys win. Going away this afternoon.

[Tim MacMahon]

Yeah. Eurobasket is in effect. How did Turkey do in their first game, gents?

[Tim Bontemps]

Turkey. Turkey had a win. Nice win over Latvia. The home. The home. The homestanding Latvians got smoked.

[Tim MacMahon]

Not bad. Wait, 8,000 to 1. That could have been a nice bet. All right. Joining us from Dallas, Texas, wearing Salt Lake City Summer League gear is Tim bunt is Dan McMahon.

[Dan McMahon]

Howdy, partners. Get a little fresh shipment of the Salt Lake City Summer League swag. Always appreciate the fine folks who run that tournament, run that league, I should say. I'm hoping somebody will send Bon Tim to Razor because it's a rough situation. Razor and some clippers. I mean, the hair is really like poking out underneath the backwards ball cap.

[Tim MacMahon]

Well, it's the summertime.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes. That will be rectified soon, hopefully.

[Tim MacMahon]

Okay, so as we go through the next few weeks, we're going to take a look at the league, division by division. And we were trying to figure out where to start and, you know, Bontemps wanted to talk about tears and I said no more tears. Have any more tears. But we were trying to figure out where to start and unfortunately, I think we need to start in the central division because we have scorner significantly melancholy calves.

[Tim Bontemps]

Corner. Bad cat's corner.

[Tim MacMahon]

Yeah. So it's never good when two of your starters have foot surgery in the off season. That's my analysis of that.

[Tim Bontemps]

Seems less than ideal, really.

[Dan McMahon]

Never good with any do, but yeah, certainly not when you double up on it.

[Tim MacMahon]

Right. So earlier this summer, Darius Garland had surgery on his turf toe that was really limiting him in the playoffs last year and definitely, you know, caused him to miss several games against the Pacers. And he later gave an interview to cleveland.com saying he was basically playing on one foot. And so he. He is going to be out. You know, they. Their timetable they put was a little squishy, but most likely is going to be out for at least the start of the season. I mean, at the end of the day, you don't need your All Stars in October, but still, they're going to miss him at the start of the season. And then this was a pretty significant setback. This week, the Cavs announced that Max Strus had suffered a Jones fracture. It's a particularly difficult type of fracture to the fifth metatarsal, the outer edge, outer side of your foot. If you remember, about a decade ago, Kevin Durant had a Jones fracture, and.

[Tim Bontemps]

He ended up famous example of it, for sure.

[Tim MacMahon]

He ended up needing three different procedures to. Now it obviously was healed because he's gone on to have great next 10 years. But in Durant's case, he came back after a couple of months and then needed the screw taken out, which sometimes happens with Jones fractures that the screw bothers you, that they have to put in to fix it, and you have to get that taken out. Then you got to recover from that. And in the case of Durant, he had a rebreak. I. I remember there's a family, a doctor in the family who's a. Who's a. You know, does orthopedic work. And do you remember when Russell Westbrook, like, got elbowed in the face and. And there was, like, a dent in his face? Do you remember that? So I was with him that night, and this doctor is in the family, and he goes, boy, I'm really worried about this guy from Oklahoma City. I go, yeah, I know he's got a dent in his face. He goes, oh, no, no, no. That's an easy fix. We see that in the ER all the time. They just use a little suction cup. I bet he doesn't miss any games. I go, really? He's got a dent. He goes, yeah, he's fine. He goes, no, I'm worried about the guy with the Jones fracture. He's like, they're bringing him back way too soon. And sure enough, Westbrook missed no games. And sure enough, Durant re had the Jones fracture happen again and ended up missing the rest of that season, needed a third surgery. Now, the reason I bring that up is the Cavs are putting Max Struse's timeline at three to Four months.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, it's three to four months to return to basketball activities. That's not three to four months to play, which I think is important to note.

[Tim MacMahon]

So this is a. Look, there's no broken foot that you're like, oh, it's just that kind of broken foot. No problem. But this is a real setback for. For the Cavs because, you know, they're in the second apron, you know, and there were some reports recently that the Cavs were maybe looking for another wing player. And I was like, that's kind of surprising. And then now you can kind of see why, because this is, you know, they have an open roster spot, but, you know, they're in the second apron. This is. This is difficult. So look, at the end of the day, he's not out for the season, although he's going to be out for a big chunk of it. You know, last year, Streuss missed 20 the first 27 games when he sprained his ankle in a workout where he was just working out with an assistant coach and took a terrible sprain of his ankle in a freak injury. And the Cavs said in their release that this also happened in a workout. So very bit of unfortunate news for the Cavs. And look, the Cavs are the favorites in the east, and ultimately, you know, Garland and Strus are not, you know, expected to miss the season or anything, but bon temps. This is. This is not what you want to see for a team that's trying to, you know, make what they hope is a Finals run season.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, it's obviously not ideal, particularly this Max Drew Snooze. I mean, Darius Garland hopefully will be ready for the start of the season. But, you know, like you said, if you just do the math, if you want to be charitable, Max is going to start working out again at the start of December. So, you know, that's on the early timeline of the three to four months. And that I assume, going to require a good amount of time to get back up to speed for. He's going to play. So you're probably talking about missing close to the first half of the season, if not more than that.

[Tim MacMahon]

If he's back before the All Star break, they should be happy.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, and. And they are. And look, let's also be real about it, right? There's not a lot of competition at the top of the east this year. There's at most five or six teams that we think have a real shot. It's probably three or four. So if this was the Western Conference and you were Talking about a key team losing a starter for half the season or more, you'd probably have some real alarm bells going off. But what, what have we seen over the last couple of years, in particular with Donovan Mitchell? We've seen him wear down as the season's gone on, even as the Cavs have tried to keep his minutes down and he's run out of some steam in the playoffs and had injury issues in the playoffs. So to me, a huge challenge for the Cavs this season was to try to get to the playoffs with everybody fully healthy and ready to go, and then give themselves the best chance to get through what should be an advantageous bracket for them. And it's going to be that much harder for Cleveland to do that when you start off with Max Struse and Darius Garland either out or coming back from off season surgeries. And you've got a guy in Lonzo Ball coming off the bench who, while we all agree is a really good player and was good when he was on the court with Chicago last year, is another guy that your, your goal is to have him get through the season healthy and be ready to go to play a key reserve role when the playoffs start. Not a guy you're hoping to rely on to be playing significant minutes throughout the year.

[Dan McMahon]

As much as they will miss Darius Garland's production if he's not ready to roll early in the season, and even if he needs to be ramped up early in the season, which I would assume is maybe the best case scenario, I do think wearing down Donovan Mitchell is probably the biggest concern. Last year they really were able to kind of ease the burden on him, limited minutes, so it wasn't, you know, nearly as bad as the year before. But last year Darius Garland was healthy for the vast majority of the regular season. Unlike the previous year where Donovan was completely on fumes and doing all kinds of issues by the time that the playoffs rolled around. And you know, they do, they've got some depth at wing, but you know, you mentioned Lonzo Ball and he can, you know, he can kind of be your primary initiator. Some, also some, some wing depth but you know, he's not playing back to backs. He's not playing heavy minutes. You know, DeAndre Hunter, nice addition for them last year. He's not been the most durable guy.

[Tim MacMahon]

That's true. They got to keep an eye.

[Tim Bontemps]

You know, Dean Wade is another good player on the wing who's had injury issues. You know, it's a big, it's going to be a big year For Sam Merrill. They obviously signed him, they kept him, they lost Ty Jerome and free agency. Sam Merrill is going to be a key piece for Cleveland either way. Like, he's going to have to be good and productive for them and available early in the year. I mean, the cat. Like I said, the Cavs feel fortunate they're in the East. They should have a lot of wiggle room. But you know, I'm sure Cleveland would love to have home court advantage in a series against Orlando or New York or maybe even Atlanta, depending on how they look or some of these other teams. And this could be a year where, at least as of now, it might be like the later LeBron years in Cleveland, where it's less about where the Cavs are in the standings and more about making sure when they get to the playoffs everybody's fully amped up and ready to go for the run.

[Tim MacMahon]

That's true. And so one other factor here, you know, the Cavs traded Isaac Okoro for Lonzo Ball, and this is a situation where Okoro would have been the guy to get a lot more minutes here for Streuss, most likely. So there will be, you know, they really had DeAndre Hunter play a lot of four like last year. So I think you would see him play more 3 as natural here and more minutes for Dean Wade, who can play three or four.

[Tim Bontemps]

So, you know, more minutes too. The other thing, a lot more minutes for Larry Nance, who our guy who was just on the pod because to your point. Well, the two guys who are very durable on the Cavs always, right. Are Evan Mobley and Jared Allen. Those guys are available and play a lot. And if you, if you're going to have like, what's an easy way to extend your minutes is to get more game time with the three of those guys rotating through. And then like you said, you can play DeAndre Hunter down, you can play Dean Wade down, you can, you know, Jaylon Tyson, who was a rookie last year and didn't play much.

[Tim MacMahon]

So that's the guy I was going to mention. So Jaylon Tyson, who was their 2024 first round pick, you know, he had some moments last year, was derailed with injury for part of the year, so he probably will get more of a look. So. Yeah. So probably the most significant news for the Eastern Conference, you know, if you're the Knicks, you know, what you're hoping for is to get home court advantage. And you know, the Knicks were owing four against the Cavs last year in regular season, obviously didn't matter. They Got even farther in the playoffs. But if you're the Knicks, you're like, hey, you know, Boston's banged up. Indies banged up. Now the Cavs are a little bit banged up. Sounds good. You know, I would say that the two things about the Knicks that are. That are most interesting. I mean, we know who's on their roster, but two things about the Knicks that are most interesting going into the season as we sit here now. Number one, they're healthy, which is their rivals. Can't say. Number two, they're not in the second apron. Actually, I think they might be a nose over it, but they've got some on under Ungar, non guaranteed contracts. I think they will be a non second apron team when the season starts. And that means that they have the ability to be flexible in a way that the Cavs cannot be.

[Tim Bontemps]

And we're already making excuses. Damn, we're not even to September. We got excuses and Cavs going because.

[Dan McMahon]

You know what happened? We had the big old brouhaha in the spring about. Was that second round exit. A disappointment. I just remember a Cavs corner mayor getting awfully mad.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's right.

[Dan McMahon]

You know, that's right. I got in full blown jackass mode. So he's just trying to lay the foundation for this not being a disappointment.

[Tim Bontemps]

Laying the bricks.

[Tim MacMahon]

So moving on. In the Central Division, one of the Central Division's most relevant players played today. Yumpo played for Greece. I believe they were in Poland. I think they were in Poland.

[Dan McMahon]

I don't think they were in Poland because they were playing the same time as Slovenia.

[Tim MacMahon]

Who? Oh, okay.

[Tim Bontemps]

It wasn't Poland.

[Dan McMahon]

Yeah.

[Tim MacMahon]

Okay. Well, anyway, they were somewhere.

[Dan McMahon]

Hey, Jana said. Hey, bro.

[Tim MacMahon]

You said.

[Dan McMahon]

I was gonna. You said, this fever stuff's tough on me. The man was what had 31 on 20 shots.

[Tim MacMahon]

Yeah, 31 today. Seven rebounds. Yeah, well, let's not overreact there. They. They beat Italy by nine. I believe so.

[Dan McMahon]

Giannis, Nicole Melli, a man who's represented my underwear drawer. Wow. Still playing for Italy. You have to have attended the live pod to get that one that was in the Q. Oh, God, yeah.

[Tim MacMahon]

Giannis. 14 of 20 from the floor. 14 to 20 from two point range. No. Three pointers, seven rebounds, two assists.

[Dan McMahon]

They were in Cyprus, which could you.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes, I was gonna say.

[Tim MacMahon]

Yeah, of course I could.

[Dan McMahon]

You're a man of the world, I'll tell you.

[Tim MacMahon]

Five turnovers, one steal. Yeah. So very good start for Giannis. And here we are about to be September, and Giannis is very much planted on the Bucks. So I still think it's something that people are going to be keeping a.

[Dan McMahon]

Close eye on, as they have been for seven years.

[Tim MacMahon]

Yes, but especially now. But you know, the Bucs obviously make the big move by cutting Dame Lillard and bringing in Miles Turner. They are. They're a team that I think their goal should probably be, can we get a top four seed and make sure that Giannis and our core players are healthy in April? Do what you can to make sure those players are healthy. They've had horrible injury luck for three consecutive years in the postseason, and that's the best thing that they can hope for. The.

[Tim Bontemps]

I would say they should just hope to be top six. I mean, I think they're projected to finish eighth or ninth by the, by the odds in the East. So I mean, I think if they.

[Tim MacMahon]

Agree with that, I mean, assuming you get a reasonably healthy.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, let's say their roster is not very good. I mean, it's a massive. They're putting a massive. They're putting a massive burden on Giannis to be the sole engine of their team for 82 games. And any game Giannis doesn't play, they've got a bottom five, six roster. Right.

[Dan McMahon]

And he's not playing 82 games.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right.

[Dan McMahon]

He's played 70 games one time, you know, in the last one, two, three, four. One time in the last six years he's played.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's my, that's my concern.

[Tim MacMahon]

Here are giannis's games since 2019. 20, 63, 61, 67. 63, 73, 60, 67.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. So you're talking about missing 15 games.

[Dan McMahon]

A year, and in none of those seasons did he average more than 35 minutes per game. 23, 24 is when he played the 73 games average 35.2. That's the most. So you're telling me he's going to need to play likely more minutes and harder minutes and harder minutes being these know, the. Not just primary facilitator, but pretty damn close to like the sole facilitator. Look, Giannis might have an MVP season again next year. That's certainly within the realm of possibility. But, man, you know, as he, he's. He's over 30 now and how many like, are they going to try to play this guy? 36, 38?

[Tim MacMahon]

No, no, because they have to protect April and, But I will say this part of what you.

[Tim Bontemps]

When you're for, they also have to get to April. That's the thing.

[Tim MacMahon]

Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying. They have to. Well, but look, if you're projecting the Bucks, part of the Bucks projection is you're trying to figure out how good the Pacers and the Celtics are going to be.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I don't think it's that. I mean, let's just do the teams quick, right? They're going to be what's. They're behind Cleveland. They're behind New York. They're behind Orlando, they're behind Atlanta. I would say they're behind Miami after they added Norm Powell. Like, I think Miami's going to be better. Maybe this year. You want to say maybe.

[Dan McMahon]

Maybe.

[Tim Bontemps]

He's fine.

[Tim MacMahon]

Now we're in the maybe zone.

[Tim Bontemps]

I would say Detroit is. Should be probably projected to finish ahead of them. They're a lot deeper. Like, I don't know if they will for sure, but I would say. I'd say it's a maybe leaning towards yes. Yeah, we'll see about Boston. We'll see about Indy. Like the one team. I will say that's been very discounted in our forecast stuff, which is look ahead to something we're going to talk about a couple of days probably is Toronto's not losing 50 games this year. Like, they're going to be trying to win games. They have at least a representative roster. They added Brandon, play for him last year. They've got him and Scotty Barnes and Manual quickly. Like, they're going to be in the mix for a spot in there. Like, they're. I'm not saying they're finishing ahead of the Bucks, but I think the Bucks are going to be. Like, they're going to need Giannis healthy to stay ahead of a lot of these teams.

[Dan McMahon]

You're higher on Toronto than I am.

[Tim Bontemps]

I just don't think Toronto is going to be 32 and 50. I think they could be 41 and 41. And the Bucks.

[Tim MacMahon]

The Bucks have had.600 winning percentage. Basically, I'm rounding up on last year was. 550, 590. The Bucks have had a.600 winning percentage for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 consecutive years.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right. And the Bucks turned Brook Lopez and Damon Lillard into Miles Turner.

[Tim MacMahon]

I understand, but that. I'm just, you know, I'm just, just pointing that out. I agree that this is a weaker team, but, you know, Giannis is that kind of a driver.

[Dan McMahon]

He is. But who other than Giannis on this roster can do any kind of damage off the dribble?

[Tim Bontemps]

Kevin Porter Jr. And Kyle Kuzma are your two answers.

[Dan McMahon]

I mean, I was going to say, are you going to tell me Cole.

[Tim Bontemps]

Anthony, again, this is like I look if, if Giannis, to your point, McMahon, if Giannis could play 75 plus games, which he obviously has not done in a long time, he, he's got a chance to win MVP because he's going to put up astronomical numbers. And if he does that, they could finish third or fourth, they could win a lot of games and he will get a lot of credit for that. Sort of like the Russell Westbrook MVP season. It's not exactly the same, but I'd say it's got some parallels to it. But again, that's assuming he can hold up under that load of playing time and player usage because he had an insane usage down the stretch of the season. And, and any game he misses playing point guard well. Right. But he's. Any game he misses, they're going to be pretty heavy favorites to lose.

[Dan McMahon]

Well, and the other thing is, Giannis obviously has been a defensive player of the year. He has the ability to be a massively impactful defender. But how much is he going to have to give you on the defensive end if you need him to to go for 32, 12 and 8 and have the ball in his hands for 37 minutes a night?

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, it's like to me, if they could finish in the top six, I think that's a very successful year for the Bucks. And if they can, to your point, if they can sort of like we were just talking about with Cleveland, if they can be in the top six and have Giannis healthy at the start of the playoffs, then yeah, they'll take their chances going up against anybody and hope Giannis can do Giannis things in the playoffs. Like that's a, that's a bet worth making.

[Dan McMahon]

Although Giannis did they gotta get things. Giannis did Giannis things against the Pacers last year and it a competitive series. He was ridiculous.

[Tim Bontemps]

You could also argue there's not a team like the Pacers last year and this year's East. More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[Tim MacMahon]

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[Dan McMahon]

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[Dan McMahon]

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[Tim MacMahon]

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[Dan McMahon]

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[Tim MacMahon]

All right, well, speaking about the Pacers, they're in the Central Division and dealing with the loss of two starters that they're not going to get back, which Miles Turner goes to the Bucks, which didn't you know, Much to the SA grin of the Bucks, who think that Miles Turner is a game changer. Bon Temps didn't change your feeling on them at all, but I didn't hear you. I don't think I even heard you. Do you think he's.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, adding Miles Turner is good. It's just like they had Brook Lopez and they had Damon Lillard last year, and the two of them became Miles Turner. Like, that's a downgrade. And the rest of the roster was already rough.

[Dan McMahon]

Miles Turner is an upgrade from Brook Lopez at this point in Lopez's career, but he's not like just some drastic math, you know, just like, oh, my.

[Tim Bontemps]

God, Dame was really good last year. Like, he averaged 25 and 7. Like, that guy's just gone from their team. You know, it's. It's just, it's going to be fascinating to see how it goes. Very curious.

[Tim MacMahon]

Well, the Pacers are not getting Turner back. He's gone. And obviously Tyrese Halliburton is out for the season. You know, the. They have some guys who I do think can shoulder a bigger load. I'm certainly not saying anybody's replacing Halliburton, but, you know, Andrew Nemhart is going to have a bigger role, and in the past, he's had a bigger role in the playoffs and has shouldered it. Well, you could see TJ McConnell having a bigger role. Finals darling TJ McConnell. I don't think they're going to all of a sudden start playing him massive minutes because I think they need to control his minutes for various reasons. But T.J. mcConnell will have a bigger role. They possible Johnny Furfy who was a bit of a standout in the summer. Their first round draft pick or was he second round draft pick, early second.

[Tim Bontemps]

Round pick or late second round guy? It was a potential. He's projected to go in the first round. Really highly rated analytics guy who fell into the second round and got scooped up by the, by the Pacers.

[Tim MacMahon]

Johnny Furfee, you know had a interesting summer league. He could but you know and then a big name would be Benedict Matheran. Now Matheran is interesting for two reasons. One, Matheran is extension eligible and the Pacers it's unclear how much more they're going to invest in this roster. They certainly drew a line in the sand on Miles Turner and that sent a message of course because they didn't spend money on re signing Miles Turner. In theory they could have money to extend Benedict Matheran but also they're going to you know Rick Carlisle's come out and said Benedict Mather will be in the starting lineup and, and so he will get this big boost. And so if he has a big step forward year he may, he may even want to wait to sign because you know he may have a breakout year. You know he's been a player who's been a little bit erratic where he. We saw it in the finals last year. He had. What he have in was a game four, Game five. He had the big.

[Dan McMahon]

What we saw was you know, Rick Carlisle didn't fully trust him because he had the big game. I'm looking up real quick. He had.

[Tim MacMahon]

It was in Indy. I think it was game four.

[Dan McMahon]

Yeah, he had the huge game in game three when they. Game three when he scored, he was nine and 12 from the floor and scored. My damn thing ain't scrolling over. I think it was like 27 and 23 minutes. Damn basketball. Yeah, 27, 23 minutes and only played 14 minutes in the, in the next game. So listen, actions over words. You know, Rick can say he trusts them all he wants but the guy just had a huge game. Was a massive factor in a finals win that gave them the series lead and regained home court advantage at that point. And then in the very next game didn't play a whole lot.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's a. He's a fascinating case because he's a, he's a ball dominant. 2 that's a pretty inconsistent and I would say overall under below average 3 point shooter career 34% shooter and is a streaky guy like you said. He can have games where he goes crazy like he did in game three and he can have a lot of games where he doesn't. He's at times been an awkward fit playing with Tyrese Halbert who obviously, even though he's hurt going forward, is the guy they're going to be building the roster around. And we've seen over the last years in the playoffs. Andrew Nemhardt has been a great fit next to Tyrese Halliburton and seems to make a lot of sense as the long term answer at the 2 and they've got Aaron Neesmith at the 3. So it is going to be very interesting to see how this Nemhard Mather in backcourt this year looks and what direction that causes the Pacers to go in going forward. Like Benedict Matheran has a great year. Is he a way for the Pacers to get a replacement for Miles Turner long term in some sort of deal? I don't have a deal in mind but like is he some team want him? Does that turn into a big allow them to reorient their roster and then go forward with something like the group they had this past season? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe he plays great and they find a way to make it work long term. But both of those guys in particular, like I'm fascinated to see what Nepar can do in a bigger role. Like could he have 18 and nine this year as a starter? Like I don't know, maybe. Like he's really good. And you know Mather in Last year in 40 and 70, 49 starts, almost 30 minutes a game, he averaged 16 points. If you told me he averaged 20 points a game this year and was a, you know, their second leading score behind Pascal. But sure, I could see that. Like I could have seen about Matheran.

[Tim MacMahon]

You know, he has started quite a few games in his career, about maybe 40 of the time.

[Tim Bontemps]

Almost exactly 40, 85 of 209.

[Tim MacMahon]

He, he actually is a more efficient scorer coming off the bench than he is as a starter I think because when he's in the second unit they feature him a little bit more well.

[Dan McMahon]

And he gets to play against second unit defenders as well.

[Tim MacMahon]

For sure. For sure. So that's going to be a, you know, a role change for him. But you know, it doesn't have Matheran.

[Dan McMahon]

Physically like dude, he is 66 with enough like perfect NBA wing physique, phenomenally explosive, completely fearless, has some real guard sums to him. Yeah, like there is a lot Interesting player. There's a lot.

[Tim Bontemps]

But he is kind of a ball stopper and he doesn't feel like a great fit long term with the Tyrese Halliburton Pacers.

[Dan McMahon]

So yeah, the fearless doesn't know, you know, sometimes there should be an appropriate amount of, if not fear, like recognition of the flow of the offense maybe.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, that, that backcourt, that backcourt. I'm really curious to watch this year and see what it means for both those guys going forward because there's going to be opportunity. And I think we all agree that Indiana is not a team that we expect to be trying to lose games. They're going to want to make the playoffs, they're going to want to get playoff games. So again, going back to what we, what you talked about before, Brian, like the way they play with the system they run and the pressure they play with, they're. They're probably still going to be a fairly competitive team in the middle of the east. And my hunch is they find a way to get in the playoffs.

[Tim MacMahon]

I would have them pencil, you know, health of Pascal Siakam, etc.

[Tim Bontemps]

Who's typically a really durable guy. Yeah, plays a lot and plays a lot of minutes and is really good.

[Tim MacMahon]

And you know, he is. He's had a somewhat limited role in their offense since he got there. He scored more when he was in Toronto. He's sort of been more of a middleman at times. They haven't, they don't run as much stuff from the balls in, you know, you know, the ball.

[Tim Bontemps]

More of a play finisher than a play than a, than a play creator. So they'll be doing more of that this year, I'm sure.

[Tim MacMahon]

Yeah, I mean, like if you look at three years ago in Toronto when he led the, he led the league in minutes a couple of two years in a row. He was averaging 24, 23, 24 points a game. Last year he averaged 20. So, you know, he could, he could score a little bit more and they're going to need it. They're going to need the scoring and, and you know, they're going to play fast and you know, you know, they, they are, you know, they have a couple of things going for them. They have two guys who were out last year with, with Achilles and Isaiah Jackson and James, James Wiseman is coming back. They traded for Jay Huff from the Grizzlies, who they're trying to find a diamond in the rough there. They have depth, you know, they still have depth. I mean, both Ben Shepard and Jerryus Walker young guys that they've recently drafted had flashes last year. They've got guys they can put out there. So they're going to need that depth to, to come through.

[Dan McMahon]

I am curious, you. You said McConnell have a bigger role. I'm curious to see if that is actually the case.

[Tim MacMahon]

I think, I don't think he's gonna start.

[Dan McMahon]

No, he won't start.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think he'll have the same role. I just think it'll. It'd be an important one.

[Dan McMahon]

Now Rick has already said Matheran starting. You know, Nimbard's going to play point guard.

[Tim Bontemps]

McConnell will come in and do McConnell things off the bench and like be the do the whole second unit thing which is going to drive a lot of regular season winning like that. That will win them that Obi Toppin McConnell playing fast, moving the ball, pressure group off the bench will you know Rick. And Rick knows how to scheme stuff up. Like they're gonna find ways to win games.

[Dan McMahon]

McConnell average 18 minutes a game last year, 17.5 in the playoffs. I just think he's one of these guys who is a great third down back who you don't want to hand the ball 20 times a game.

[Tim Bontemps]

Can't play him more than that, especially at this point of his career.

[Tim MacMahon]

Speaking of football like man, Dallas.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh, we got into Michael Parsons talk for the, for the algorithm. Jackson.

[Dan McMahon]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

Fired up.

[Dan McMahon]

Hey, they got twice as many first round picks as the Mavs did for Luke. I thought it was a great deal.

[Tim MacMahon]

That's a good joke. That's probably been repeated a few times today.

[Tim Bontemps]

I would imagine so.

[Dan McMahon]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

Is that seen in the same light as the Lucas stuff down there? In all seriousness, there's.

[Dan McMahon]

I haven't been outside, but I don't sense it.

[Tim MacMahon]

Do you need to be outside to. I don't sense you put your ear into the wind.

[Dan McMahon]

I don't sense quite that level of outrage. Certainly my mentions aren't as on fires after the loot. But I mean people ain't happy. People are not happy. And this is. It's a pretty classic case of Jerry letting his ego influence some major franchise decisions. And you know, I. Here's the thing. There'll be butts in the seats but people have been trying to fire Jerry for, you know, since Jimmy Johnson got run out of town.

[Tim Bontemps]

So that was a long time ago.

[Tim MacMahon]

All right, so this week ESPN like all of our panel of people we projected like what. What teams records would be like. This is one of these things like the crowdsourcing, you know, ask a bunch of people who do this for a living, what their opinions are of wins, which by the way, the Bucks came in with 46, six in that group. So that's what, that's where they came. The Detroit Pistons came in with 47 wins. By the way, this, this projection, which is of course completely unscientific, it is an indication of how little faith there is in the Eastern conference because only three teams in the east were projected by the ESPN Group to have more than 47 wins last year. There were five and five in the standings, you know, in the real standings. So there's not a lot of excitement about the teams in the East. But the Pistons, I could see their fans grumbling a little bit that, that, that our group didn't feel that they would, they would be more improved, especially with some of the teams around them with weakening.

[Dan McMahon]

They made a 30 win jump last year. You know, nobody saw that coming. But boy, that, that's a pretty, I mean it's a historically huge jump and they lost some key pieces from that team. Now they're getting Jaden Ivey back, but.

[Tim MacMahon]

And added Caris Lavert and Duncan Robinson.

[Dan McMahon]

Yeah, and you know, certainly I thought that Duncan Robinson, given the circumstances I, I thought they had to get a volume long range shooter that, you know, because the space we talked a lot last year about, you finally put spacing around Cade Cunningham and look what, look at the year that Kate Cunningham had. Look how he blossomed and basically just morphed into a superstar. And we'll see like Ron Holland, you know, how much better can he be in his second year? But look, Dennis Schroeder was a key piece for them. Malik Beasley, and we'll see how that plays out. Was a.

[Tim MacMahon]

Well, let me just say something real quick. So Malik Beasley, he played all 82 games. He averaged three or four three pointers, made a game, had the second most.

[Dan McMahon]

Threes made in the league.

[Tim MacMahon]

Right. And shot 42% on them. He's gone. Tim Hardaway Jr. Well, he ain't on the roster today.

[Dan McMahon]

He's not on the roster today.

[Tim Bontemps]

They replaced him with Caris Levert, who's a nice player but is not nearly the same kind of shooter. And this was a team that thrived on giving Kate Cunningham a ton of space to your.

[Tim MacMahon]

Okay, so Tim Hardaway Jr. Started 77 games.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, but there is a like for like replacement there.

[Tim MacMahon]

Okay, hold on. Tim Hardaway Jr. Started 77 games, made two threes a game, shot 37%. So between Tim Hardaway Jr, Malik Beasley they took what, 15 threes a game, made six of them. So 40%, you know, and they were replaced by, as you mentioned, Caris Levert and Duncan Robinson. And I will tell you what, those guys.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, Duncan Robinson, I think Duncan. Duncan Robinson is a good replacement for.

[Tim MacMahon]

Tim Hardaway, but 34% on threes last year. Actually, overall. Let me take his Cleveland stats, too. He shot 37% like he was part of that Cleveland crew that didn't miss for three months.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, look, I mean, they went from. They went from Dennis Shooter, Malik Beasley and Tim Hardaway to Duncan Robinson, Caris Lavert, and the return of Jaden Ivey, who had a very interesting start to the year and then had that rough injury and missed the rest of the season. He should be ready to go in the fall. And look, I, I have a story coming out Friday that we're going to talk about, I believe, later in the weekend with my thoughts on what teams could exceed or fall short of their projections. One of the 10 teams that I highlighted was, I think Detroit will fall short of 47 wins. And it's partially for the reason McMahon pointed out they had a historic jump last year. It was a great season. J.B. bickerstaff did a terrific job. Kate Cunningham became an all NBA player. They won their first playoff game in almost 20 years, had that fun series against the Knicks in the first round. But a lot of times when you see a team have that kind of a leap, there's a bit of a consolidation the next season and they did lose some key pieces. They do have to reorient the roster a little bit. And also, like they. I think Trajan Langdon, the president of basketball operations there, did a really smart thing this summer and didn't say, hey, we made this jump. We've now arrived. We're going to go throw money around and get veterans and try to, you know, show that we're a top four team in the East. I think they looked at their roster and as you guys mentioned before, they've got Jaden Ivey, they've got Ron Holland, who they drafted fifth last year. They've got Jaylen Duran, who is an interesting young big who made some strides with J.B. bickerstaff last year. And I think a lot of this season is going to be about can those guys kind of Sar Thompson, who got over the blood, I was going to say, came back like, can those guys continue to grow? Yes. Can those guys continue to grow and progress and get more development in minutes and shots and. And touches and be part of things. If Detroit wins 43 games and those guys all improve, that's a lot more important than playing some veterans more minutes and winning 48 games.

[Tim MacMahon]

Hey, McMahon, can I take you to an off ramp for a second here?

[Dan McMahon]

Yeah.

[Tim MacMahon]

Tim Hardaway Jr. Three years ago in Dallas, 71 games, 14 points a game, 39% on seven threes a game. Two years ago in Dallas, 79 games, 14 points a game. I know the guy's streaky, okay, But I'm just telling you his raw numbers. 14 points a game, 40, 30, 36% on threes. On seven threes a game. Last year in Detroit, 77 games, 11 points a game, 37 on threes. On six threes a game. How come he gets a minimum contract in Denver?

[Dan McMahon]

Well, he stinks defensively.

[Tim MacMahon]

He takes a lot, you know, so does Duncan Robinson. He got 16 million, okay?

[Dan McMahon]

He takes, he takes a lot of charges and he is, you know, just a turnstile other than that. And honestly, I thought he was great value as a minimum contract. So I'm not going to sit here.

[Tim MacMahon]

No, I agree. I'm just saying, like, like Duncan Robinson got $16 million. He averaged 11 points a game last year.

[Tim Bontemps]

Took, if you look around the league, a lot of players in the Tim Hardaway, Malik Beasley, who was on a minimum in Milwaukee before signing for 6 million the next year. Gary Trent Jr. Another guy in a similar sort of role, been on a minimum the last two years in Milwaukee. A lot of these, like kind of shoot first two guards who can maybe guard a little bit. That position has been pretty devalued, I would say, generally. And in a market this summer where there wasn't a lot of money available, like, I think for Tim, like, to me it was a smart move for Tim Hardaway to go play with Nikola Jokic this year on a minimum. And I assume he's going to get a ton of wide open threes. Probably like Billy Beasley last year, he's going to make a ton of wide open threes. And if he does, I think he'll have a chance to get paid somewhere next summer.

[Dan McMahon]

Yeah, the way things ended in Dallas for Hardaway weren't great. If you don't believe me, just ask his dad. He. I think he's still talking about how much they wanted to get the hell out of Dallas and the feeling was useful. But, you know, the guy came into Detroit and was a significant part in helping them make such a huge improvement. So I did. I thought he had a season that, you know, would kind of restore his value. Apparently that wasn't reflected in the free agency market. But again, as a minimum player, he is streaky, but you gotta guard him. And I thought he was a really good addition for that Denver bench.

[Tim MacMahon]

All right. Sorry. Just. I know we're talking about the Pistons.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hey. But those young guys are going to be really interesting to see how they develop this year around. Kate.

[Tim MacMahon]

Okay. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. We haven't really talked that much about Cade. Like as a reminder, Kate Cunningham was second team all NBA or third team all NBA last year. Made the all star team.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. Got the supermax because of it.

[Tim MacMahon]

Got some. Got some MVP votes, if I'm not mistaken. You know, put up.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think you're right. Let me check that while you're talking.

[Tim MacMahon]

And you know, look, if you're, you know, wager on the, on the Pistons. I mean, yeah, you can talk about what Jade Knighty might do, what Duncan Robinson might do, what Caris Laverd might do, all that stuff. Your wager on the Pistons reaching into that top four is a wager on Cade Cunningham. You know, if he continues to his. If his ascension continues.

[Tim Bontemps]

Kate Cunningham got a couple of votes last year. Tied Anthony Edwards for seventh in MVP voting.

[Tim MacMahon]

Have you seen. Have you guys seen some Ann Edwards videos from his trip to China this last year?

[Tim Bontemps]

I was amused at him and Bill Duffy, the longtime agent for Yao Ming and now Anthony Edwards agent, taking a picture together with Yao Ming. I thought that picture was.

[Tim MacMahon]

Every picture with Yao Ming is unbelievable.

[Dan McMahon]

Did you see what Ant said?

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes, that's why I was laughing.

[Tim MacMahon]

I saw it. But I forget what did he say?

[Dan McMahon]

I would dunk on. I would have dunked on. Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes, I was. I would have dunked on him too. I think.

[Tim MacMahon]

I know he would have tried to.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes, he would have. But yes, he's been enjoying himself in China.

[Dan McMahon]

Kid Cunningham's clearly the Pistons most important player long term. And now who's second on that list?

[Tim Bontemps]

I would say. I would say Assar Thompson, I think assert. I mean, I don't know. His offense is rougher than his brothers. I don't know if he's going to get to a place where he can be an impactful offensive player. But if he can, he's going to be an all star, like, because his defense is really, really good. And for all the same reasons as a men's. Like, he can be a massive disruptor. But I, I think, you know, it's a big year for Jalen Duran. He's gotta continue to Take us forward.

[Dan McMahon]

So you think Duran's third on that list?

[Tim Bontemps]

I would probably say, because of where the league is at, that the more it's more important for them to have a Sar Thompson and Ron Holland pop than Jalen Duran because there's a lot more bigs, and you can probably find another big. Obviously, if Jalen Duran can really pop, that would be good. But, yeah, look like. I think. I think those three guys, and to a lesser extent, Ivy, like, this year is about where are they at the end of the season, and if those guys have all taken meaningful steps forward. I think, like I said, If Detroit has 44 wins again or 43 wins and they're in the play in, I could see some Pistons fans being like, man, are we taking a step back? But if that is accompanied by those young guys developing and playing bigger roles and having impactful moments this season for the Pistons, then I think that's a successful year because to your point, it's about growing those guys going forward with Cade more than, like, we got to get to 47 wins this year or 48 wins this year, and maybe they'll do both. We'll see.

[Tim MacMahon]

Well, we talked about Matheran Jaden Ivey is also extension eligible. Okay. And he had 30 very good games last year before he got injured. And, you know, this is another one of those things. Do you extend him before the October deadline before he gets a chance to maybe have a pop season, or do you make him have the pop season? But he was on the way to that.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think it's pretty hard, and I think it's pretty hard to. I think it'd be pretty hard to come to a number that made sense for everybody.

[Tim MacMahon]

Hey, man, just. I just always think of. And I'm not trying to compare him to Steph, but I just always think of, you know, Steph Curry had all these ankle injuries, and they're like, man, do we give him the extension? What do we do? And, you know, not that he's going to become a superstar, but, like, you know, sometimes you can get a guy, you know, who just wants to lock in stuff, and next thing you know.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I. I think it'd be, listen, I. I would understand if they did. I just think for both sides, it probably will make more sense to wait till next summer. But it wouldn't. Wouldn't stun me if they get something done with him. But. And same with Jalen Durian. Like, he's another interesting extension guy. Like, what. You know, what. What happens. What happens with him? Do they get a deal done with him. But I off to me this year in Detroit it's about those four young guys and what do they, what do they look like in April and if they've taken big steps forward then that's going to be a successful year regardless of the record. More Hoop collective podcast after this. Gatorade is the number one proven electrolyte.

[Dan McMahon]

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[Tim Bontemps]

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[Tim MacMahon]

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[Tim Bontemps]

To tell you that Mints offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for 50 $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun.

[Dan McMahon]

If we made $15 bills but it.

[Tim Bontemps]

Turns out that's very illegal.

[Tim MacMahon]

So there goes my big idea for the commercial.

[Tim Bontemps]

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[Tim MacMahon]

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[Tim MacMahon]

All right, that wraps our central. Wait a minute. Is there another team in central division.

[Tim Bontemps]

Doubles.

[Tim MacMahon]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be insensitive.

[Tim Bontemps]

You don't sensitive right there.

[Tim MacMahon]

The Bulls.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hey, everybody in Chicago's fired up about the Bears. Maybe, maybe we'll have their first ever 4,000 yard quarterback this season. Could do more football talk now we can skip right.

[Tim MacMahon]

Can I just say real quick, am I did in McMahon. You're a football guy. Did I miss like that 4,000 yards is like. Is that long been the historic benchmark that if you're a 4,000 yard quarterback like you're a Hall of Famer? Well, I had never heard this 4,000.

[Dan McMahon]

Yards, no, but they just haven't had a 4,000 yard guy.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's just a way to. It's just a very good way to exemplify that the best quarterback in the history of the Bears is Sid Luckman who played there about 90 years ago.

[Dan McMahon]

Hey, also we got to give a shout out to Uncle Jim McMahon.

[Tim Bontemps]

Jim McMahon was a great quarterback for the, the Bears defense that won with a legendary or Bears bear scene. The one with a legendary defense. He was. Have I told you guys a great quarterback?

[Dan McMahon]

Have you, Have I told you my Uncle Jim story?

[Tim Bontemps]

You have.

[Dan McMahon]

Okay, good.

[Tim MacMahon]

I don't remember it but you could tell it again.

[Tim Bontemps]

I just. You have told it though.

[Dan McMahon]

Well, tell the quickie, the Cliff Notes version. Third grade, you know, the, the year of the super bowl shuffle. Bears told a couple kids in the playground Jim McMahon was my uncle.

[Tim MacMahon]

Oh yes, that's right.

[Dan McMahon]

Now they didn't check the spelling. Mc Mac. People screw that up all the time. I'm in Mac. He's mc. But I could, I could get away with it. Got away with it so well that every Monday that school year I was up at the front of the class giving reports on how old Uncle.

[Tim MacMahon]

Yes.

[Dan McMahon]

Right up until I believe it was week 11 12. It was. I remember, I think believe the bears went 11 and oh when they came down to Dallas and beat the absolute crap out of Tom Landry's Cowboys 44 nothing game. Well the week of that game my teacher asked my mom something along one.

[Tim MacMahon]

I'm sure it's never good. That's never a good.

[Dan McMahon]

Yeah, I'm sure.

[Tim Bontemps]

Is little Timmy going to the game?

[Dan McMahon]

I'm sure your brother in law is going to be busy this week, but are you guys going to get to get any time with him? You're going to be able to see him, you know. And my mom said I'm sorry, what, what are you talking about? I don't have a brother in law. Well, I was up at the front of the class the next day and it wasn't giving a report on how old Uncle Jim was doing.

[Tim MacMahon]

It was the beginning.

[Tim Bontemps]

McBan's many times in the penalty box and in school. It wasn't a life lesson.

[Tim MacMahon]

Lesson?

[Dan McMahon]

Yeah, a life lesson.

[Tim MacMahon]

Well, he didn't take the lesson but it was.

[Dan McMahon]

No, I'm honest now. The, the, the pro I got, I lied and then I either was going to fess up to the lie right away or just double, triple, quadruple down on it. And man, I rode that thing for damn near three months by the way I checked it.

[Tim Bontemps]

There is only one team in the entire history of the NFL including expansion teams it was not had a 4000 yard pass.

[Tim MacMahon]

My point is like I'd never heard this. You know, like okay, 20 wins pitchers, decades. It's. It's like a benchmark.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean obviously teams throw, teams throw the ball more now but it's just a shorthand Way to say the Bears have not had a good quarterback.

[Tim MacMahon]

No, I got it. I just, I'm just arguing about this 4,000 yard state that.

[Dan McMahon]

Yeah, I think the NBA equivalent is you have, you haven't had a 25 point per game score. Like it's not some like holy grail.

[Tim MacMahon]

But again, I haven't heard that ever said like oh, we've never had a 25 point.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's also because everybody's had one.

[Dan McMahon]

Exactly. I bet you if there's a franchise that had never had one, then you'd.

[Tim Bontemps]

Probably hear this won't come up again after Caleb Williams. Probably.

[Tim MacMahon]

Do you remember the Bulls were like known for like not having $100 million player. They were the last and the A team to have a hundred million dollar play.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, you know what? It's.

[Dan McMahon]

Hey, and now Patrick Williams damn near is.

[Tim MacMahon]

So. Can I just say something? Bun temps the Bulls, bro, have like $85 million in expiring contracts this year.

[Tim Bontemps]

Correct.

[Tim MacMahon]

That is not discussed at all. Because nobody looks at the Bulls as being strategic. Is that fair?

[Dan McMahon]

That's completely unfair. That is completely unfair being strategic. Well, hold on, I gotta find this quote. Nicola Vuchovic looks at the Bulls.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh God, I don't even know what this quote is going to be. I'm not even kidding.

[Dan McMahon]

He was just over there in you know, Euro baskets going on. So he's chit chat with the media playing for Montenegro and I've got to find it. But I know that. I know Vuch was singing old AK's praises. What, what's Vuch's contract?

[Tim MacMahon]

Well, it's big.

[Dan McMahon]

He's.

[Tim Bontemps]

He's got these 21 million this year. Expiring 21.4 million.

[Dan McMahon]

How did that, how did that trade go? Do you recall?

[Tim Bontemps]

Didn't go great. Franz Wagner and. Franz Wagner and Wendell Carter for Nick Vucevich has not worked out great for the Bulls. I mean the interesting thing about the Bulls expirings more than anything. I mean obviously the Josh Giddy situation remains unresolved. Like several of these restricted negotiations around the league. We'll see if they can get a deal done with him or if he takes the qualifying offer. You got the quote there?

[Tim MacMahon]

I got.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's still a mustering for you.

[Dan McMahon]

Yeah. This is from. From Basket News, which is a. A European based basketball.

[Tim MacMahon]

European aggregation site.

[Dan McMahon]

Yeah, well, and let's see. He knows not just aggregation. He was, he was talking with.

[Tim MacMahon]

Okay, I'm sorry, I apologize. Take it all back.

[Dan McMahon]

Okay. And hold on.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, so you haven't actually Found he's.

[Dan McMahon]

Saying the fans just have to stay patient with the results.

[Tim MacMahon]

That's what AK asked for.

[Dan McMahon]

I know it is kind of the position he's in. If the results are not there, we all get a little bit of criticism, but that just comes with the job. When he first got here, I thought he made some very good moves. Signing Lonzo, Caruso, Vuchovic and demar. I thought it was a very good team. It just did not work out after that. Sometimes it is hard to figure out what to do next. This is mean. I'm going to take a break from Vuchovic. One thing you don't do is trade out Caruso and then have the whole entire basketball world say, are you bleeping kidding me? They didn't get a single pick back, you dumbass. Okay, this is back to V. Sorry. We had a lot of energy, injuries and other challenges. But overall I think he has done a good job now.

[Tim MacMahon]

Well, they have had injuries. That is true.

[Dan McMahon]

Now is the part about he's done a good job true Mask?

[Tim Bontemps]

No, he obviously has not done a good job. All right. Okay.

[Tim MacMahon]

But the interesting extended.

[Dan McMahon]

Now they have decided to go slightly younger players and they did a good job in the draft as well. I think it is understandable that fans want results right away, but sometimes you need to be patient. Overall, I think he's done some pretty good things. So, hey, he's got a supporter in Vuch.

[Tim Bontemps]

Maybe trying to get another contract extension.

[Tim MacMahon]

Yeah, why? He couldn't believe he got the last one.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, the giddy situation remains unresolved. We'll see what happens with that. And I mean, I think the most interesting thing about the Bulls this year is the status of Kobe White, who is on a $12.8 million contract. Very good value.

[Tim MacMahon]

He's probably unlikely to extend.

[Tim Bontemps]

Unlikely to extend because they can't probably get to a high enough number to get him extended. And so again, when you talk about the Bulls being strategic, I mean, honestly the strategic thing to do would have been to trade Kobe White a year ago, but certainly to trade him now and to get some assets back for him. Probably a good amount of assets back for him given his contract and the quality of player he is and you know, lean into this youth movement around modest, pizzealous and what likely could be a very high pick in this year's draft. Because this, I don't think the Bulls are going to be very good.

[Tim MacMahon]

You know, had no essence.

[Tim Bontemps]

Who they just drafted last year with the 12th pick was the guy who.

[Dan McMahon]

Had the, the X's fry balls whenever.

[Tim Bontemps]

For Johnny Furfy dunk this summer. Yeah. So I, you know, but that, that situation going forward. Yes, that situation going forward is going to be interesting to watch to see what happens to Kobe White and, and yeah, I mean it was also, I mean we talked a lot about that Patrick Williams contract last summer and then he got hurt and it's, it was a absolutely catastrophic season for him. So we'll see if he can get back on track.

[Tim MacMahon]

Well, the Bulls have, Bulls have one winning season in the last nine years. One winning season last nine years. The last three years they have won 40, 39 and 39. And with that information, the ESPN panel said they will win 36 this year. Oh, I, I for one pick 39 because did the math but you know, just, just enough to not get a, a defining a franchise changing lottery pick.

[Dan McMahon]

You know the, but the Giddy situation is interesting because I felt like the Vuchevich thing, he made a bad trade and then he doubled down on it and gave him a bad contract, you know, after the trade. However, anyway, what was two, three years after the trade, whatever it was, this is a deal, it was a bad trade just because you didn't get value. But I think, you know, the 30 million a year that Giddy reportedly wants, that would be a bad contract. So he's not doubling down on it. Giddy's not a bad player, but I think, I think the 20 million years is pretty reasonable value for him. Now we'll see how it all plays out. But I at least give the Bulls credit for not doubling down on a, on a mistake just to I guess try to save face, which I felt like exactly what they did with this much of it's dealing with.

[Tim MacMahon]

Well, look, here's the thing. Over the last 15 games of the season last year, and I know March and April, you got to be careful overreacting to that. Over the last 15 games of the season, Josh Giddey averaged 25, 10 and 11.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't care, I don't care about that. That doesn't matter.

[Tim MacMahon]

Okay, fine. But I'm just going to say if you're going to, if you're going to, if he's going to take the qualifying offer and then you're going to play him the way you played him at the end of last season and he's out there sniffing around averaging a triple.

[Dan McMahon]

Double and one thing.

[Tim MacMahon]

How are you going to play him again? This comes down to strategy. What's your strategy?

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I mean, this comes down to Negotiating against the qualifying offer. And I think the difference between.

[Tim MacMahon]

Will you explain that? Negotiating against the qualifying.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. So obviously we are in a situation right now where there's no cap space around the league. Right. We've talked about the Jonathan Kaminga thing for months. We've talked about Quentin Grimes and Phil, Philly some. We've talked about this Josh Giddy situation some. All these guys have the same problem, right? They're all restricted free agents. They all would like a contract. They can't really go get another offer somewhere else. So if you're a team like the Bulls, probably the average person would sit there and think, all right, there's no other place for this guy to get paid. So we can turn the screws on this guy and give him as little money as you want. Right. Let's get the single best deal we can get. That's true to a point. But you also have to navigate the human part of the negotiation. You also have to balance how close you get to the qualifying offer. So in Josh's case, his qualifying offer because he was a starter last year is somewhere around 11 and a half million dollars. Okay, so let's say Josh takes the qualifying offer. I believe it's been reported out there. It's been talked about the Bulls are offering somewhere around 4 for 80. Either way, let's just say the Bulls are off in four for 80. Okay. Take the 11 million Josh make this year. He's got to sign a three year deal for $69 million to get his money back to a very nice deal to get his money back. Right. I think that's a reasonable deal for him to get.

[Tim MacMahon]

In other words, just, just because you sped over it. In other words, the delta, the difference between the $12 million that he would get or the $11 million he gets a qualifying offer versus what he would have gotten if he'd have taken the 20 million in year one.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right. His salary this year would be somewhere around 17, 18 million. It's 6, 7 million dollars. He can maybe make that back. The thing that's to get a little off topic. The reason the Jonathan Kaminga thing is, is a very hard thing for him to take. The qualifying offer for his qualifying offer is like seven and a half million. He's getting offered somewhere around the potential to make 45 million. And his first year, two years, over two years, but his first year deal is over 20, so.

[Tim MacMahon]

Right. The Delta on Kaminga is in theory, you know, 13, 14 million that he would leave on the table by taking the qualifying and for him to get.

[Tim Bontemps]

The number back, he'd have to have a salary next year that starts somewhere around $40 million, which is almost in any scenario extraordinarily unlikely for him to get to.

[Tim MacMahon]

Whereas Giddy, the delta between the qualifying offer and what the Bulls are offering, at least.

[Tim Bontemps]

At least what people have said they're offering is not. It's not that big. And so that's where in theory, if the Bulls like. To me, if this ended at like 3 for 75 or something, that would be a big enough gap where it would make sense and deal would get done. But I don't know if that's good.

[Tim MacMahon]

But just to be clear, you explained that it means that Giddy is. It makes more sense for Giddy, the qualifying offer, in theory, you know, in this game, it's just a matter of.

[Tim Bontemps]

The simplest way to put it is the qualifying. The whether you take the qualifying offer or not is about risk mitigation. And for Josh Giddey, if this is the choice to make, there's not a lot of risk to take the qualifying offer. Whereas in theory, in the Jonathan Kaminga situation, he may. We'll see if he chooses to take the risk. But there's almost no chance he would make that money back in a future deal.

[Tim MacMahon]

So that would be a much harder chance. It's just the mountain is higher the.

[Tim Bontemps]

Amount of money he would have to make it. I would say it's very little chance he would make it back. Like, he may make a lot of money in the future, but that's different about making the money back right away.

[Dan McMahon]

The other massive difference in their situations is if Giddy get is in a situation in Chicago where he's going to have the ball in his hands, he's going to be starting, he's going to be the primary facilitator. You know, he like he's in the situation he wants to be as opposed to if he just stayed in Oklahoma City, he's coming off the bench and honestly become more of a bit player where Kaminga is a complete bit player. And I mean, he was DNP CD in playoff games. You know, he's right. There's a coach there who clearly doesn't really trust him and want to play.

[Tim Bontemps]

Him and this team. To your point, Tim just acquired him from Alex Caruso and you would think would be. Would that valued him and would and did just start him all year at point guard, in theory is going to value him going forward. So it would make sense for the Bulls to find a way to get a deal Done. And I would guess they ultimately do get some deal done. But you know, it's not as simple as, well, there's no money out there. Get the lowest number you can get him on and go forward. Doesn't always necessarily work that way.

[Dan McMahon]

I, I do think we need to also mention that Giddy has maybe the most delightful collection of nicknames when you look at his basketball reference page. And they always have a.

[Tim MacMahon]

Any of them about his hair.

[Dan McMahon]

Well, one is. Okay, I'm going to go in reverse order. Vanilla Magic. Never heard that. Wizard of Oz.

[Tim MacMahon]

Because Oz. Oz is Australia. That's the.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, that's a good one.

[Dan McMahon]

Himothy Chalamet.

[Tim MacMahon]

Yeah, well that. He, he named himself that one, but it was a good one.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, that is a good. That is.

[Dan McMahon]

And then slob. Wizard. Slobline out of bounds.

[Tim Bontemps]

Our guy. Royce Young is the one who coined that. I believe, I believe that's a Royce Young special.

[Dan McMahon]

I think that was a Hollinger. I think maybe, I think that's even nerdier than Royce Young.

[Tim Bontemps]

I would agree.

[Tim MacMahon]

I mean Hollinger is somebody who would be talking about sideline out of bounds proficiency.

[Dan McMahon]

Yeah.

[Tim MacMahon]

Look, if you're a Bulls fan, you're, you're dream, you're, you're on the trade machine dreaming of what your expiring contracts might be able to get you and you're looking for modest pizzealous to have a, have a big step forward season.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I think if you're a Bulls fan, you're, you're rooting for as many losses as possible and a shot at AJ Daban or Nate or Darren.

[Tim MacMahon]

3,000, 940, sir.

[Tim Bontemps]

I didn't say, I didn't say, I didn't say the Bulls front office. I said Bulls fans, they try to try to get one of these high level players in this year's draft.

[Dan McMahon]

And hey, the best thing about charted course best thing about watching the Bulls is they have a really fun broadcast crew. Adam. They do nowhere near tall enough to referee an NBA.

[Tim MacMahon]

Oh my God.

[Dan McMahon]

Fun play.

[Tim MacMahon]

Neither is there any voice of their radio. Chuck Schwirski. Chuck Schwarzki might be able to post up. Adam.

[Dan McMahon]

Stacy King says all kinds of wild things.

[Tim Bontemps]

They had a great, they got a great broadcast. They got the best mascot in the league. That's what they got going for him.

[Tim MacMahon]

Is what they got going for. And they got a great home arena.

[Dan McMahon]

Is Benny the Bull the best mascot in the league?

[Tim MacMahon]

I don't know. He's a great. I don't know if he's the best. He's, it's a good, he's historically a good master.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'll say he's the best.

[Tim MacMahon]

Boy, you are pushing out there, buddy. You, you go to a lot of arenas, a lot of mascots who mess with you. I believe you better be, you better be speaking to Jackson, old Rocky the.

[Dan McMahon]

Mountain lion, the former ones, the one who showed me the middle of his three fingers after. But hey, I'm just, I mean, Benny.

[Tim Bontemps]

The Bull, Benny the Bull is iconic.

[Tim MacMahon]

I, I don't think this is iconic, but just be careful with best there as I'm just giving you some advice.

[Tim Bontemps]

I, I think it's fine. I, I'll live with it.

[Dan McMahon]

Who's in the conversation there?

[Tim Bontemps]

I, I, I don't think there's another person.

[Dan McMahon]

Oh, Rocky's in there. Rocky's definitely in there.

[Tim Bontemps]

There's plenty of great, there's plenty of great, there's plenty of great mascots. If you ask people name an NBA mascot, they're naming Benny the Bull the.

[Dan McMahon]

The, the Jazz Bear, except for he got GTA by freaking Gucci mane.

[Tim MacMahon]

If you know that reference, if you know the reference to Tim Bontemp or the Tim. I just, but if you know the reference that McMahon, you're gonna get thrown.

[Tim Bontemps]

Off your own pod.

[Tim MacMahon]

If you do, put it in the comments underneath and you get bonus points. We don't, we don't get.

[Tim Bontemps]

What are the bonus points worth?

[Tim MacMahon]

Who knows? Nothing. They're not worth anything. But if, but if, but, but listen, to be honest with you, if you're this deep into a podcast on August 29, you get bonus points and then double bonus points.

[Dan McMahon]

That inside of a joke. This deep into late August podcast.

[Tim MacMahon]

So, you know, somehow a true fan. When we do these live shows, there's like lots of merch, and then the merch disappears. I don't know where it goes, bro.

[Dan McMahon]

I got, I don't have one now, but those good, strong, you know, metal cups, the official Brian winners.

[Tim Bontemps]

They're great cups.

[Dan McMahon]

My boys went and collected every single one that we've got like 15 of them here.

[Tim MacMahon]

The twins were marching around thinking about.

[Tim Bontemps]

Me at every meal.

[Tim MacMahon]

I want you to be thinking about me at every moment. Yeah, maybe at some point we'll have mer, we'll send you merch for, for listening this deep in the podcast. You know, they used to do that. There was, you know, they still do them, but nobody actually ever looks at them. But like every, for every game, the NBA public relations staffs put together these things called game notes where they have all this stuff in there. And back when I was a kid, like in 2003, when I used to, you know, when I first started out covering the NBA, the Milwaukee Bucks PR staff deep in the game notes would put like, the first person to see this sentence and report to Sherry, who was the head of Prince, gets a $20 gift card to, like, the team store. So, like, you know, that's great. That's. That's a. I mean, I don't actually have a $20 gift card to give you, but it's. We're brainstorming the idea. All right, that's enough about the Central Division. Thank you. I got to go check and see what the Nebraska Husker score is. Thank you for watching and listening to the Hoop Collective. Thank you to McMahon. Thank you to Bontemps. Thank you to Jackson, our producer who's got an early flight and he thought he was his. Thought his sleepless nights were over in August, but, oh, he's wrong. Buddy couldn't do it till late.

[Dan McMahon]

Listen, he doesn't need to sleep to go watch the Orange get their asses whooped by Tennessee.

[Tim MacMahon]

How much money they getting for that game, Jax? All right.

[Tim Bontemps]

I asked him earlier, I said, are you really going down there to watch them get smoked? He said, ah, they're only a two touchdown dog. I said, okay, that seems like a questionable move.

[Tim MacMahon]

Let's go to. Who doesn't want to be in Atlanta in August anyway? All right, we'll. We'll talk to you early next week.

[Dan McMahon]

Adios, amigos.

[Tim Bontemps]

Months.

[Dan McMahon]

Years.

[Tim Bontemps]

When was the last time you saw a doctor?

[Tim MacMahon]

Too long.

[Tim Bontemps]

Join the club.

[Tim MacMahon]

But here's the great news. The time is now.

[Tim Bontemps]

No matter. Our reasons for delaying visits cost time, even fear, our doctors are there to help us.

[Tim MacMahon]

Let's talk to them. Building a relationship with the doctor is.

[Tim Bontemps]

Great for our mental health and well being. So no more waiting. We can make the appointment today for ourselves and to be there for our loved ones. Doctor, it's been too long.

[Tim MacMahon]

But it's not too late.