TOP TRENDS to WATCH for game 5 of the NBA Finals + Grizzlies trade Desmond Bane to Magic + Kevin Durant’s preferred trade destinations | The Hoop Collective

Summary

Detailed Summary of "TOP TRENDS to WATCH for Game 5 of the NBA Finals + Grizzlies Trade Desmond Bane to Magic + Kevin Durant’s Preferred Trade Destinations | The Hoop Collective"

Release Date: June 15, 2025
Hosts: Brian Windhorst, Tim McMahon, Tim Bontemps
Location: Oklahoma City, at the Tipsy Tiki

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1. Introduction and Setting the Stage

The episode kicks off with Brian Windhorst welcoming listeners to the Hoop Collective podcast, recorded at their usual spot in Oklahoma City’s Tipsy Tiki. Windhorst introduces Tim Bontemps and engages in light-hearted banter about Tim McMahon’s cowboy hat, setting a casual and personable tone for the discussion.

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2. NBA Finals Game 4 Recap and Key Performances

Thunder’s Comeback and Series Dynamics

Brian Windhorst initiates the conversation by reflecting on the intense Game 4 of the NBA Finals. The Thunder faced a daunting seven-point deficit with approximately 10 minutes remaining but managed a remarkable comeback to secure the win. Windhorst draws parallels to the Thunder’s previous series against the Denver Nuggets, highlighting the resilience and strategic adjustments made by both teams.

Tim McMahon remarks on the series' repeating narrative:
“This thing is really following the same script as that Nugget series crushing collapse in game one at home.” ([02:30])

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander’s Historic Performance

A focal point of the discussion is Shai Gilgeous-Alexander’s (SGA) stellar performance in Game 4. Tim McMahon emphasizes Shay's clutch play, noting:

“Shai delivered. And the biggest thing down the stretch of that game was... Shay delivered.” ([05:23])

Windhorst echoes this sentiment, comparing Shay’s late-game dominance to historic NBA performances:
“He put the finishing touches on this. What it means is this is one of the all-time great seasons. And that was his signature moment.” ([06:16])

McMahon highlights the significance of Shay scoring 15 of the last 16 points, equating it to some of the greatest finals performances in history: “He had the most points in the last five minutes of finals win in at least 50 years.” ([05:37])

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3. Officiating Controversies: Scott Foster Under Scrutiny

Critical Analysis of Game 4’s Officiating

The hosts delve into officiating issues, particularly focusing on referee Scott Foster’s decisions during Game 4. They dissect a pivotal play where Shay hit a crucial baseline shot amidst a controversial hand check by Aaron Neisomith.

Tim McMahon provides a detailed breakdown:
“Shai puts his arm out... Neisomith tried again. Too little, too late.” ([09:00])

Brian Windhorst challenges the lack of a foul call:
“He made contact with his chest... That was a huge decision.” ([09:28], [09:33])

Rick Carlisle’s Defense of Scott Foster

Grizzlies' coach Rick Carlisle addresses the officiating critiques in a statement, defending Scott Foster’s professionalism and fairness:

“Scott Foster is a great official. He has done a great job in these playoffs. The ridiculous scrutiny that is being thrown out there is terrible and unfair and unjust and stupid.” ([14:08])

This defense sparks further debate among the hosts about the integrity and consistency of officiating in high-stakes games.

Anticipation of Game 7 Officiating

Brian Windhorst speculates on the officiating for a potential Game 7, emphasizing Scott Foster’s likely role as crew chief:

“Scott Foster will be doing game seven. And by the way, if you’re the Pacers, you’re going to feel pretty good if Scott Foster is the crew chief of that game.” ([16:17])

Tim McMahon adds:
“Scott Foster is not afraid to make any call against any player at any time, anywhere.” ([16:30])

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4. Trade News: Grizzlies Trade Desmond Bane to Orlando Magic

Details of the Trade

A significant portion of the podcast centers on the Memphis Grizzlies trading Desmond Bane to the Orlando Magic. The trade details include Orlando receiving Desmond Bane in exchange for Kentavious Caldwell-Pope (KCP), Cole Anthony, and four first-round picks, alongside a swap.

Brian Windhorst outlines the trade:
“Desmond Bain traded to the Orlando Magic for Kentavious Caldwell, Pope, Cole Anthony and four first-round picks.” ([31:30])

Analysis and Reactions

The hosts analyze the strategic implications for both franchises:

• Orlando Magic:

  • Tim Bontemps praises the Magic’s active approach, noting they haven’t engaged in significant trades since 2019 and now secured a player like Bane to bolster their offense and three-point shooting.
  • “They need shooting and offense, Desmond Bain fits.” ([35:39])

• Memphis Grizzlies:

  • Tim McMahon interprets the trade as a franchise reset aimed at building around Ja Morant, emphasizing that Bane was the odd man out.
  • “This is a franchise reset for the Grizzlies. It is not the first step of a rebuild.” ([44:25])

Brian Windhorst further discusses the value of the trade:
“They were also trading away Kentavious Caldwell-Pope who just had his lowest output season in like 10 years and had two years and 44 million on his contract.” ([35:32])

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5. Kevin Durant’s Preferred Trade Destinations

Durant’s Trade Preferences and Potential Transfers

The conversation shifts to Kevin Durant’s rumored desire to be traded, with his preferred destinations including the Miami Heat, Indiana Pacers, and Houston Rockets.

Brian Windhorst introduces the topic:
“Kevin Durant... really wants to be traded only to the Heat. Pacers or Rockets?” ([52:32])

Tim McMahon provides insights into the feasibility of these trades:
“If Phoenix gets the offer they got for Desmond Bain, good for them, God bless them. I don't see that happening.” ([56:22])

Challenges and Speculations

The hosts discuss the complexities surrounding Durant’s potential trade, including team alignment, financial considerations, and the attractiveness of offers from interested franchises.

Brian Windhorst expresses skepticism about the Suns’ willingness to trade Durant for less than what Memphis received for Bane:
“It’s gonna make his team worse.” ([57:17])

Tim Bontemps reflects on Durant’s impact and the realistic expectations of trade returns:
“If they get six first-round picks back... it’s probably gonna be a deal where you go, man, that’s all they could do.” ([56:54])

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6. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the podcast winds down, the hosts recap the major topics discussed, affirming their anticipation for Game 5 of the NBA Finals and expressing enthusiasm for future episodes.

Brian Windhorst concludes:
“Thank you to Jackson and Rafa and Blair, our producers here in Oklahoma City... We'll talk to you in a couple. In a day or something.” ([59:20])

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “Shai delivered... he made the most points in the last five minutes of finals win in at least 50 years.”
  — Tim McMahon ([05:37])

• “Scott Foster is not afraid to make any call against any player at any time, anywhere.”
  — Brian Windhorst ([16:30])

• “They need shooting and offense, Desmond Bain fits.”
  — Tim Bontemps ([35:39])

• “This is a franchise reset for the Grizzlies. It is not the first step of a rebuild.”
  — Tim McMahon ([44:25])

• “Kevin Durant... really wants to be traded only to the Heat. Pacers or Rockets?”
  — Brian Windhorst ([52:32])

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Key Insights and Conclusions

• Thunder’s Resilience: The Thunder showcased impressive resilience and strategic prowess by overcoming significant deficits, underscoring their status as formidable contenders in the Finals.

• Shai Gilgeous-Alexander’s Emergence: Shay's exceptional performance could be pivotal for the Thunder’s championship aspirations, potentially elevating his status as one of the league’s elite players.

• Officiating Scrutiny: Scott Foster’s officiating in high-stakes games remains a contentious issue, with significant implications for perceptions of fairness and game outcomes.

• Strategic Trade Moves: The Grizzlies’ trade of Desmond Bane to the Magic exemplifies a strategic reset, aiming to build a more cohesive and competitive roster around star player Ja Morant.

• Durant’s Trade Speculations: Kevin Durant’s potential trade adds another layer of intrigue to the NBA landscape, with significant implications for the franchises involved and the broader competitive balance of the league.

• Future Game 5 Outlook: The hosts anticipate Game 5 to be a crucial turning point, with both teams’ strategies and key player performances likely to shape the series' momentum.

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This episode of The Hoop Collective offers an in-depth analysis of pivotal moments in the NBA Finals, significant trade developments, and the ongoing saga surrounding Kevin Durant’s trade preferences. Through expert commentary and detailed breakdowns, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the factors influencing the current NBA landscape.

Transcript

[Sponsor]

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[Brian Windhorst]

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Sunday afternoon at the old Tipsy Tiki. Back to our home away from home here in Oklahoma City. Joining me right here, Tim Bontemps.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hello, everybody.

[Brian Windhorst]

Happy Father's day to you, Mr. Bontemps. Your first Father's Day.

[Tim Bontemps]

Thank you, I appreciate that.

[Brian Windhorst]

And you guys, the guy who's practically got a name on a bottom his barstool. And I wanted to say if you're, if you're watching us on YouTube, you can see this. If you're listening to us, you know, you can't see that he's wearing a cowboy hat. And I just want you to know two things. One, he looks good in this cowboy hat. I'm saying this as a secure man. The second thing is he keeps that hat here. He stores it here. It's Ben McMahon.

[Tim McMahon]

Howdy, partners. As usual with Wendy's storytelling, there's a little creative license in there. This is the hat that our beloved sports center producers, Melinda show busy got when we went to old Langston's Westerwear last time we were in town. Couldn't fit in my luggage. You know, I got all those kicks, all those suits.

[Brian Windhorst]

Couldn't fit in. There's no room in there.

[Tim McMahon]

So Big Rich was kind enough to store it for me.

[Brian Windhorst]

Isn't that what I said?

[Tim McMahon]

But at the house, not here. I just asked him to bring it up because I figured we're gonna be sitting on.

[Tim Bontemps]

You didn't. You just said it was here. It was in Oklahoma City, that's all.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Tim McMahon]

Not at the Tipsy Tiki.

[Brian Windhorst]

When you arrived here, was the hat being stored here?

[Tim McMahon]

I asked him to, to bring it back up because I figured this would be.

[Tim Bontemps]

I would say you said it exactly right. So I'm glad we had this. Not.

[Tim McMahon]

Oh, wow, here we go. Bunch of kissing going on right now. Bon Tips. Trying to move on.

[Brian Windhorst]

A lot of relief here in Oklahoma City. There was a lot of tension a couple days ago on Friday night. Was it Friday night? Yeah, Friday night. When that was a seven point deficit.

[Tim Bontemps]

Long 12 minutes to end.

[Brian Windhorst]

That game, seven points with about 10 minutes left.

[Tim McMahon]

I mean 10 minute, 10 point deficit in the last minute of the third quarter.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's right. It was looking pretty tough for the Thunder, but you know, it was kind of like where they were in the Denver series. You were at that McMahon, they were down nine in the early part of the fourth quarter on that one. They came back and got game four, got game five here and then won that series in seven.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah, I mean this thing is really following the same script as that Nugget series crushing collapse in game one at home. You know, you get beat in game three, you know, really just get outplayed in crunch time in game three on the road. And then Shae Gildis Alexander comes through in crunch time in game four. The exact same script. Two, two very different teams, very different styles. You know, obviously the Nuggets are a team that revolves around joker play. Much slower style, proven championship team. You know, the Pacers are as up tempo as any team in the league. What we have found out though, you think fast, you think maybe, maybe you thought finesse about the Pacers before these playoffs. The Pacers are anything but a finesse team.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's true.

[Tim McMahon]

A tough Indiana team. And I think when you talk toughness, you start with that other Canadian, Andrew Nemhard. And I thought it was an awesome adjustment by Mark Dagenault down the stretch of that game where they go two man game with Jayden Williams and Shai Gildis Alexander, they hadn't really done where Shea setting the screen for Dub to, you know, to run pick and roll or pick and pop, whatever the point there is to get Nim hard the hell off of Shea. And Niecemith is a very good defender who had no hope in the last five minutes of that game.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, look, I mean the Thunder were really worn out in game three by the intense pressure and physicality of the Pacers, which what we saw the Pacers do to the Knicks and the Cavs and the Bucks all throughout the playoffs. And like you said throughout Game 4, Mark Daignault did a great job of making sure Segues Alexander would be ready to go in the closing minutes. And he, he made sure that he was ready to go. And Shay delivered. And the biggest thing down the stretch of that game was like you said, getting Andrew Nemhardt off of Shea and getting Aaron Neesmith on him. Aaron Neesmith's a bigger defender than Nemhardt, so you think, well, why would he want him on him? But every time Shea has gotten Niecemith on him in this series. He's known he can get to his spot and get his shot, and that's what he did every time he needed too late.

[Tim McMahon]

Yep, maybe with a little help above.

[Tim Bontemps]

A little bit of that, but it.

[Tim McMahon]

Was a hand check before the forearm, but go on.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I mean, look, he, he knows how to create space and how to get to his spot. He did. And you know, this is a series that's been, you know, a couple of these games has come down to the margins. And like in that game four against Denver, when their backs are against the wall, they got some help from some other guys and then Shay delivered down the stretch at the end. That's exactly what happened in game four here. And now it's best of three with two games at home, and the Thunder are back to feeling pretty good again. And, you know, we all saw everybody from the Thunder after that game. And for a bunch of people, especially on the front office side, who've been through a lot of playoff games in the past, you could see the relief that was.

[Brian Windhorst]

They tried to downplay it, but their.

[Tim Bontemps]

Body language, they didn't have to say anything. You could just see in their body language how exhausted they were from going through that game. Because that, you know, if you're down 3:1 in the series, it's not over, but it's incredibly hard to come back.

[Tim McMahon]

And Shay said was at stake there and Shea basically said, hey, you know, we knew what it was if we lost that game. And as he said, if he was going down, he was going to make sure that he was going down punching, swinging. And the man had 15 of their last 16 points. That's the most points in the last five minutes of finals win in at least 50 years. I mean, there's, you know, there's some Jordan stats that come up in that convo as well. We've talked about, like what Shea has done to this point and what it means if he puts the finishing touches on this. What it means is this is one of the all time great seasons. And that was his signature moment.

[Brian Windhorst]

Here comes the story. So on this exact day, maybe not in the calendar, but the day before Game 5 is in a 2:2 series in 2022, Tim Bontemps and I were doing television in an empty arena at a Chase center in San Francisco, and we ran into Mike Dunleavy, who was then, I don't know what his title was with the Warriors.

[Tim Bontemps]

He was the. He was Mike. He was Bob Myers, number two, whatever the title.

[Brian Windhorst]

He was walking through the tunnel with a player that they had just worked out a draft eligible guard out of Gonzaga named Andrew Nemhardt, who the warriors worked out, ultimately didn't draft.

[Tim McMahon]

Whoops.

[Brian Windhorst]

Pacers took him at 31 a couple of weeks later. And here we are three years later. Andrew Nemhardt's playing a big role. You know, these teams are having workouts right now. Might be somebody here, but it just shows you how things change. And everything in the NBA shows you.

[Tim Bontemps]

That there's a lot of business going on during the finals.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's true.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's beyond the games.

[Brian Windhorst]

I was talking to a Pacers official today and he's like, you know, I. I know that there's teams that do business that are in the finals. You know, two years ago, the Nuggets, you remember they made a trade in the finals.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yep.

[Brian Windhorst]

He's like, I know that.

[Unknown]

That's right.

[Brian Windhorst]

He goes, I know that. That there's. There's teams that do business in the finals, but I don't know how the hell they do it.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah, boy. I mean, this is. This has been such a stressful series.

[Brian Windhorst]

I do want to talk about at the very end of the game because it's been a big talking point since we last had a podcast. The shot that Shay hit from the baseline, the go ahead shot that you wrote about in your. In your. While we were doing the last podcast, McMahon, you were writing about it where he got separation from Aaron Neesmith and hit the shot in the baseline to put them ahead. A vitally important shot in the game. It might end up being a vitally important shot in this series. I wanted to.

[Tim McMahon]

The most important shot of Shay Gildas Alexander's career.

[Brian Windhorst]

Agree. Let's just. I want to talk about that real quick. Even though I want to look forward, I do want to talk about that play because we didn't talk about that night on the podcast. Shay, let's just set it up. Shai puts his arm out.

[Tim McMahon]

Hold on. Before we get to that point, they bring. Shai brings the ball up after Caruso gets a block. So it's like the defense is still getting set, bringing it up to the left side of the floor. All the help's to the middle. He's got Neesmith on an island. All the help is to the middle. All the other Thunder players are on the other side of the floor, clearing it out, letting Shay go one on one. Shea attacks left where he's got knee. Smith on an island, away from the help as he's attacking. Niecemith's hand. Checking. Okay. I'm just telling you Nisma's hand. Checking it is what it is.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm just enjoying the forensic breakdown, that's all.

[Brian Windhorst]

No, my point, it's an important shot.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm not. I'm just enjoying it.

[Tim McMahon]

But my point is the reap niece Smith is hand check. And I believe if there can't be a review because there wasn't a call, I believe if there was a hand check would have been called. Okay, okay.

[Brian Windhorst]

First of all, now niecemith has five fouls.

[Tim McMahon]

Yes. Now, Shay, usually Shea is a master at creating contact with the shoulder that bump and creating separation without pushing off. This was a full on forearm shiver across the pacers on or into whatever.

[Brian Windhorst]

He made contact with his chest.

[Tim McMahon]

A full on and Naismith landed flat on his ass.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, now wait a minute. He made contact with him.

[Tim McMahon]

Oh, yes.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, let's obey that. Whether Neesmith needed to go down is another question.

[Tim McMahon]

Did he flop? I don't know.

[Brian Windhorst]

But well, well, don't just run past that. That was a huge decision. He, you know, if he went down to get. Try to get a foul, sure.

[Tim Bontemps]

He was selling a foul.

[Tim McMahon]

My point is this.

[Tim Bontemps]

He's a very big and strong guy. He didn't get knocked over by create space, but he was trying to draw it off.

[Tim McMahon]

He's 6, 5, 2, 15. Shane's a strong, wiry, strong guy, but he's not putting him flat on his back.

[Tim Bontemps]

He's trying to draw an offensive.

[Brian Windhorst]

Shay lost his balance a little bit.

[Tim McMahon]

Right. Regains his balance, goes into that baseline, step back. Nimhard tries to scramble over, but it's too little.

[Brian Windhorst]

Too little. I know that there are people who also say that that was should have been a travel, but I disagree with that. By the way, the NBA calls that play, even though if you look at it in slow motion, it doesn't look great.

[Tim McMahon]

He gets the gather step and the 1, 2. And that's what he took. He had to kind of regain his balance with it.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm just saying it was not a travel by the letter of the line.

[Tim McMahon]

Correct. And I thought the best defense played on that particular play. Help me with the name Tyrese Halberton's girlfriend who's sitting right there courtside wearing the jeans with Tyrese's picture on them. She played, she was up, she was active. Hands yelling and screaming.

[Brian Windhorst]

She was the help defender on that play.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah, Shea Nimhard tried it again. Too little, too late. And then look, man, Shea, that's what he. Shea. And I've got a story that'll be out in the Morning on. Shea is a mid range master and so it's fitting that an off dribble, step back, mid range shot, that's what he does better than anybody in the league, was the biggest shot of his.

[Brian Windhorst]

Career and Scott Foster was standing right there and he elected not to make it a no call.

[Tim McMahon]

And I don't mind that. I don't mind Scott Foster swallowing his whistle on that play because again if you're going to call the push off, there was the hand check before the push off. Whatever let the players decide the game. I don't now it was not in the last two minutes. So it wasn't on the last two minutes report. If there was a decent pool reporter, we probably would have gotten a pool report.

[Brian Windhorst]

No, we don't need a pool report on that play.

[Tim Bontemps]

You don't really likes to call for pool reports more than Tim McMahon. Dallas Mavericks have more pool reports against.

[Tim McMahon]

Well, nobody likes to say they're the pool reporter and not do any pool reporting.

[Brian Windhorst]

Tim Bondes, real quick, let me just explain that every game there is a one reporter designated that if there's, there's, there's some sort of play that needs to be questioned by the officials that that reporter will go act as the voice of all, all the reporters covering the game and then provide the answer to all the reporters. It is something just chosen by the NBA. And that individual with, because of his gravitas in the play in the entire finals is Tim Bontemps. Now I also don't agree because of what he did.

[Tim McMahon]

Gravitas. No, that's not why. It's because everybody else is doing actual work and Bontemps ain't got squat to do.

[Brian Windhorst]

So you don't, you don't, you don't make a pool report on a judgment call like that. The reason I'm bringing it up is because Scott Foster and his officiating was called into question by a lot of people after this game.

[Tim Bontemps]

Deservedly so. It was a rough game for the crew the first three games. There were zero questions about the refs. That was not a clean game for the refs.

[Brian Windhorst]

I would just say this our guy, Tom Haberstrough, Yahoo. He keeps track of this stuff. Scott Foster blows the whistle more than any if he calls the most fouls in the league. Sean Wright was also on the crew calls the fourth most fouls in the league. It is not surprising that we had a lot of fouls.

[Tim Bontemps]

A lot of fouls.

[Brian Windhorst]

However, on that call on the play there was no call. Now the reason which I, we're all.

[Tim Bontemps]

In agreement was the right call to make there too. Let.

[Brian Windhorst]

Let the players agree with that. That's my.

[Tim McMahon]

I agree. And, and I, I think it is whiny and embarrassing that people are trying to say Scott Foster won this game for the Thunder. The. The players decided to shake Els Alexander. Thunder defense.

[Tim Bontemps]

Somebody agrees with you shot more free throws in the meat of the game.

[Brian Windhorst]

I know and I don't even like talking about this, but I'm building towards something.

[Tim Bontemps]

I understand. I'm just making the point. It isn't game six.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay. This is what I'm building.

[Tim Bontemps]

It is in Game 6 of Kings Lakers back in the day from the foul shot disparity.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's fine. You're fine. The reason I'm building towards this is that today Rick Carlisle, whose team lost, came out with a statement about Scott Foster.

[Tim McMahon]

Well, and he was asked about the officiating and the meat of his quote. He's asked about kind of the mental, you know, the challenge of turning around mentally and how much role do you think officiating played in the game. And he kind of talks about tough losses, whatever, move on, blah, blah, blah. This is where it got good. He said as far as officiating, I think it's awful. Some of the things I've seen about the officiating and Scott Foster in particular. I've known Scott Foster for 30 years. He is a great official. He has done a great job in these playoffs. We've had him a lot of times. The ridiculous scrutiny that is being thrown out there is terrible and unfair and unjust and stupid.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well.

[Tim Bontemps]

And there's a simple reason why this happened. And no offense to Rick Carlisle who is a great coach and recently said some very nice things about Doris Burke in similar fashion, which I appreciate it.

[Brian Windhorst]

Hold on, hold on. Before you go on. I know what you're gonna say and I'm going to let you say it, but let me just say I think I believe he feels this way. Either way. Yes.

[Tim McMahon]

I'm not saying he feels this way.

[Tim Bontemps]

And I'm not saying he's not saying it's made up feelings.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, go on.

[Tim McMahon]

He feels this way.

[Tim Bontemps]

He's saying this because There's a probably 75% chance there'll be a game seven in this series and there is a 100% chance that if there's a game seven in the series, the crew chief of the game seven refereeing crew will be Scott Foster.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. And do you know why he will be very likely be the crew chief?

[Tim Bontemps]

Because the NBA thinks Scott Foster is their best referee and they set it up so that. So as the finals go on, for people who are home and don't know how this works, typically the crew that's doing game one in game two, they're the crews that make up the games five and six. Refereeing crews in some form or fashion. Not always exactly, but close. And then from games three and four, that's your crew for game seven?

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes.

[Tim Bontemps]

So James Capers, who was the crew chief of game three, we'll be doing game seven.

[Brian Windhorst]

A friend of the pod.

[Tim Bontemps]

Friend of the pod.

[Brian Windhorst]

He doesn't listen, but he came on.

[Tim McMahon]

And he's not 6ft, despite his claims.

[Tim Bontemps]

Scott Foster. Scott Foster will be doing game seven. And some other ref, maybe Tony Brothers, maybe our guy Tyler Ford, maybe somebody else, but some very high quality ref will be doing game seven of this series in Oklahoma City.

[Brian Windhorst]

And Ricardo.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's right.

[Tim McMahon]

Right now.

[Tim Bontemps]

And by the way, if you're the Pacers, I'm just going to say this because there's been all this talk about, oh, you know, all these things about Scott Foster. If you're a road team in game seven, you're going to feel pretty good if Scott Foster is the crew chief of that game. Because if there's one thing you want to say about Scott Foster is he's not going to be afraid to make some call because of the home fans.

[Brian Windhorst]

I've said this many times before and I shall say it again now. Scott Foster is not afraid to make any call against any player at any time, at any time, anywhere.

[Tim McMahon]

And to do it in demonstrative fashion.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, that's something I'm not as big of a fan of. Now, I would also tell you this one more thing, and then I really. You can say, you can say one more thing and then we're gonna move on. If you asked the Pacers and Thunder, probably blind, they wouldn't say it on a microphone. If they could choose a Game 7 official, I'm telling you, not saying they would admit this. I'm telling you, they would choose Scott Foster.

[Tim McMahon]

Well, that depends on the last time that Shay talked to Chris Paul.

[Tim Bontemps]

Look, I, I would agree. I think, look, Scott's a really good ref. He's a really good ref. There's a reason he's doing it.

[Brian Windhorst]

I said we're gonna let McMahon say.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah, yeah. You're always interrupting. Sure, go for it. I also had a great Chris Paul joke and you stepped all over. No, I. I had a little quick chit chat with my old pal Rick, my Co pilot. Actually, I was in the back seat, but anyways, I wouldn't let you in.

[Brian Windhorst]

The front seat either.

[Tim McMahon]

No, no, I did. See, Gosh, I'm blanking on his name, but his co pilot, his flight instructor was at game forward. Super nice guy. Anyways, I told Rick, I said, listen, man, I think the NBA should give you a bonus in your next check. How many times do coaches get fined for ripping the refs that kind of praise? He should get 50k as the next check. He said he didn't anticipate it happened. I said, you should at least ask for Tim Frank's credit card. Right. And take, you know, Mahogany. Yeah. Take the coaching staff out to a.

[Tim Bontemps]

Nice dinner to get back to the game.

[Tim McMahon]

Oh, wow. No fun.

[Tim Bontemps]

We wanted to move forward.

[Brian Windhorst]

I do.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh, move forward to get back to the game. We saw the first two games. The Thunder absolutely dominated play here. Yes, the pacers won game one. Thunder led like 94 and a half of the 96 minutes we saw the pacers largely control. The two games in Indy wasn't quite as dominant, but they were in control for most of those two games. What do we think the chances are the Pacers can do that here? Because there were some things they did in those games in Indy that I think could translate. We sat together and watched most of Game 4. The Thunder's offense was really stuck in the mud. They couldn't get anywhere. Really. Yeah, I think there's some things like that that could translate. Obviously, the Thunder missed every shot. You expect them to hit some shots, but what do we think the chances are India can do that here in.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, well, let me say something that's happening in this series is that the thunder is three point people are. So. They were three of 17 in game four on threes and one, which is amazing.

[Tim McMahon]

Both shockingly low attempts and obviously makes.

[Brian Windhorst]

Let's talk about the attempts the Thunder. The Thunder were. They averaged 39 attempts, three pointers per game in the regular season. In the series against the Nuggets, which was obviously a tough series, they averaged 38, three pointers a game.

[Tim McMahon]

Tough series till game seven, which was officiated by Scott Foster. Go on.

[Brian Windhorst]

I thought we were moving on.

[Tim McMahon]

I was just pointing something out.

[Brian Windhorst]

In the Western Conference finals against the timberwolves, they averaged 34. So it's going down a little bit, but still pretty high. In this series, they are averaging 27.

[Tim McMahon]

And that's interesting. The rotation is tightened. One guy whose minutes have been squeezed a little bit. Yeah. Who's their. You know, most Volume three pointer, three point shooter. We all think highly of Casen Wallace. He's looked like a young player in the series.

[Brian Windhorst]

So you guys know my Pat Riley ism. When the chips are down, you play eight and trust seven. I'm not sure Mr. Wallace, he's on the bubble.

[Tim McMahon]

It's been rough. He's obviously still a super impactful defensive player but offensively right now it is.

[Brian Windhorst]

Like I'm not, it's not an insult. This happens over the course of decades in the NBA.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

When you first got to be in his second or third year in the league and struggle in the finals. That's right. It's a thing. And look, the biggest thing about game four, that's a killer for the Pacers for the same reason that Oklahoma City was plus three in the three point department in game three and lost. You say, man, if you're losing a game where the Pacers aren't making less threes than you, that's really bad. If you're okc. Same thing for Indiana. We talked about it going into the series. Any game they're plus 20 or more from the three point line, they're going to feel pretty good about their chances. They were like I think plus 21 in game one when they came back and won. They're plus 24 in game four. They're plus 24 from the three point line. You expect that they're going to either be right there or win the game, especially at home. That's to me the key stat to watch in every game in the series. Can Indiana, who's a much better shooting team, get that 15 to 24 to 30 points at the three point line? Because they probably need to do that.

[Brian Windhorst]

You know, their magic number is 111. I get 111 points. They're 4, 14, 0 in the playoffs they get under 111, 110 or less. They're 0 and 6. I don't know why it's 111. It just is, but it just is.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, they're an offense, first team. While their defense has gotten much better.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I think they're. Let me tell you something, they're taking the thunder out of what the Hunter want to do.

[Tim Bontemps]

They are, but they're a team that's built on their offense and when they're hitting shots and they're getting out and running, Halliburton's playing well and then they're a different team. Well, it's a 105, 100 game. They're probably not winning that there's a.

[Tim McMahon]

There's a couple ways that like one of the main ways the Thunder generate offense, including threes, is transition, which is fueled by their turnovers. The Pacer. The Pacers have done a decent job, not up to their usual standard, but considering the opposition, a pretty good job protecting the ball since the first half of game Game one. And their transition defense has been absolutely on point throughout this series. Even when I don't have the numbers in front. Oh, I remember it was even game one. When the Thunder force 20 first half turnovers, they're only able to generate nine.

[Tim Bontemps]

Points, 11 points on 25 turnovers.

[Tim McMahon]

That was a shockingly low number. So that's God.

[Brian Windhorst]

Game one feels like it was a month ago.

[Tim McMahon]

And it sounds crazy to say this, but they have done a spectacular job on Sheikh Alexander. It sounds crazy to say it because he's had 38, 34, 24 and 350 assists in game four, which I don't.

[Brian Windhorst]

Think was a bet. Can I give you a strange stat? This year the Thunder are 60 when Shai has 2 or less assists.

[Tim McMahon]

That is a strange one.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'd have to go look at which games there were to make sure there wasn't like weird outlier games where they played the Wizards or something.

[Tim McMahon]

Zero assists in game four, only four in game three. So we. When you're making it tough on him, making him take tough shots and he's not able to, you know, spray it out like obviously they're showing help and doing a lot of things and able to take away. It's not just the assists are low, the assist opportunities are low. That's impressive. Again you get back to that adjustment that Daggeron made down the stretcher and the adjustment throughout the game. Jalen Williams was their point guard last game.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yep.

[Tim McMahon]

And again I get back to the Scottie Pippen comparison. Stay tuned on ESPN.com if the Thunder and clinching position. I might just have something coming on that.

[Brian Windhorst]

Whoa.

[Tim McMahon]

No. There's so much though.

[Brian Windhorst]

Seriously, as if you're. As if you don't do that.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah, right. Frickin go. Go do a straw poll for Finals mvp.

[Brian Windhorst]

Listen, listen. Hey, but if the Pacers, it might be interesting.

[Tim McMahon]

Jalen Williams like track is so pippinesque, even to the point of unheralded. No names coming out of high school who had big growth spurts before they go to college, like after they graduate high school.

[Brian Windhorst]

You were talking to a bunch of people today about him playing point guard.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

And because that's essentially what he did the Reason that she had no assist wasn't because he was hogging the ball. It was because. Well, he's known to do that occasionally though. It was because he. Because Jalen was playing point guard and Jalen wants everybody to know that he was a point guard until he got to the NBA basically.

[Tim McMahon]

Yes, he was. And even, even his junior year at Santa Clara. And the way the Pacers, Nimhard in particular playing Shea where, okay, you want to bring the ball up the court like you are going to be smelling hot breath for 94ft.

[Brian Windhorst]

Like hot Canadian breath.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah, yeah. So you know, to be able to say, okay, Dub, you're running point, Shay's playing off the ball. And then again the two man game between then I'm going to read some stats Williams specials that. I mean look at this organization by Jackson. It was like bullet points.

[Brian Windhorst]

Jackson turned up his game, he's like Nemhard in the playoffs.

[Tim McMahon]

This is like a Syracuse education coming to life here according to genius iq.

[Tim Bontemps]

Which is takes one to no one given this amount of time we spent at North Texas.

[Tim McMahon]

So I'm twice as smart as you. I took twice as. I had twice as much time in college.

[Tim Bontemps]

You know what it takes.

[Tim McMahon]

SGA was the on ball screener five times in the fourth quarter. All of those in the last six minutes. The most on ball screens he's ever set in the last six minutes of a game in his career. Those were all Dubs got the ball. Setting the screen for Dub, I mean.

[Brian Windhorst]

That'S not a hard. There probably haven't been too many times in the last five years where Shai was called to set a screen like one. Might be his ties record for three years.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't think they've done much of that in the playoffs at all. But it was. They used it at the right time and it worked out great for him.

[Tim McMahon]

Those five on ball screens led to nine points for the Thunder. I can do that math. 1.8 points per possession. That's pretty damn good. You'll take that by the way you talk about the threes, that huge three that Shea hit with just under three minutes left where they're playing that two man game and he backs up and gets the spot up three that's coming off of that action.

[Brian Windhorst]

We don't, we don't. He doesn't shoot like that.

[Tim Bontemps]

He doesn't back up, back to back possessions down four. It's the three on the wing. It's the shot on the baseline. The Thunder never trail again. The Pacers never make a basket Again, long what decides the finals.

[Tim McMahon]

And again, the whole point of Shay being the alum ball screeners to force the switch, get Nimhard off him, get Neesmith on him for whatever reason, Shay just eats Niecemith alive. Nine points in the final five minutes with Neesmith as the final or as the primary defender. Tied for the most points by one player against another in the last five minutes of a finals game since that tracking started in 2013.

[Tim Bontemps]

For as much as we talked about the Thunder here, I just think this game five is going to be all about Indiana's offense. Like, can they do. Can they do what they did in games 3 and 4?

[Brian Windhorst]

What happens when Indiana has the ball? That's the story.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah.

[Tim McMahon]

The story of the series is what happens in crunch time.

[Brian Windhorst]

True.

[Tim McMahon]

That's the story of the series, sort.

[Brian Windhorst]

Of with Indiana having the ball because sometimes Halliburton doesn't get it done, sometimes he does well.

[Tim McMahon]

And. And that is. But my, my point with the whole SGA screener stuff, I wonder how much do the Thunder go to that in game five and obviously Carlisle and those guys have been talking about how can we counter that? I wonder what that kind of will look like. But to your point, when the Pacers have the ball, obviously that means when the Thunder on defense, as brilliant as Shea was in those, as historically brilliant as he was in those last five minutes, especially the last three minutes, it was stop after stop after stop after stop. It was Lou Dort's on ball pressure. It was Caruso doing all the Caruso stuff. You know, he. The biggest stop of the game was the block he had on Nimhard to see set up Shai's go ahead shot.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, one of the things I was thinking about as I was leaving the arena the other night is we've said a lot of words here, but when you're in a close game when all the chips are down, you want that guy. It's helpful to have the best player.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. No, and look, the best player won. And look, that's the thing. I think this game is all about Indiana's offense. And so many times in these playoffs, all these huge games Tyrese Halberton has had, very few of them have come on the road. Most of them have been at home. The 32, 15 with no assist, game or no turnover. Game was at home. The 22 and 11 in game three was at home. First two games of the series. Yes, he hit the shot at MSG. Yes, he hit the shot in Game 1. But in those games, he didn't have huge numbers. And when he scores 20, the Pacers generally win. Just like when they get to 111, they generally win. That's partly because it tends to mean Hal Burton is aggressive and scoring. Can he on the road have a big offensive game? Because I think they're obviously got to win another road game to win this series. They're probably not going to win one in the fashion they won game one. He's got to have a huge game here and you know, let's see what they can do tomorrow. I think. I think what they do on offense is probably going to dictate how the.

[Tim McMahon]

Game goes well and they've got. He's got to do it against the best defense in the league by a wide margin against arguably the best perimeter defender in the league in Lou Dorrit. And we haven't mentioned Chet Holmgren. Chet had a tough impactful performance in game four. Fifteen rebounds, two huge putbacks and was awesome on the defensive end of the floor. The the biggest shot of the game for the Pacers was the three step back three where Tyrese is dancing. He got it, but it was a tough step back over Chet on a switch that he met did he air ball airballed it. Chet not just as a rim protector, but as a guy who at 7 foot one can switch on to, you know, a superstar guard with the drives.

[Tim Bontemps]

Chet and they trust stop with the drives.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, lots to talk about after Monday's game. You can join us in the hip collective. When you're on a business trip, you know what goes completely off the rails? Your workout routine. Especially when you book a hotel that doesn't have a gym. So what ends up happening is you do a few push ups and sit ups in your room, run around the block or just skip it entirely. Lame. If you just stay at a Lanta by Wyndham, you'll discover there's a fully equipped fitness center at every location. Now you can wake up and power your buys and tries right away or de stress with some cardio. The choice is yours. Tonight La Quinta. Tomorrow you shine. Book [e-mail] for men, dealing with ED.

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[Brian Windhorst]

We had a trade on Sunday, a.

[Tim McMahon]

Pretty damn big one.

[Brian Windhorst]

At least they agreed to it. I don't think they've announced it yet.

[Tim McMahon]

Can it be a blockbuster if there's not an All Star?

[Brian Windhorst]

I don't think it's a blockbuster.

[Tim McMahon]

It's at least a buster.

[Tim Bontemps]

Blockbuster trade when four unprotected picks and a swap are involved, it's not a blockbuster trade.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's a buster anyway. Desmond Bain traded to the Orlando Magic for Kentavious Caldwell, Pope, Cole Anthony and.

[Tim Bontemps]

Four.

[Brian Windhorst]

First round picks. Not really future picks because one of them is in this draft. The Magic pick in this draft. The most important. You're right. Plus the swap. The most important pick.

[Tim McMahon]

Yes.

[Brian Windhorst]

And the pick where as I've talked to people in the league today, they've been like, whoa.

[Tim McMahon]

The crown jewel of the return to.

[Brian Windhorst]

Memphis is the either. It's the lesser. So the higher pick. Higher or lower? I always get that confused. The pick that's farther down the line.

[Tim Bontemps]

It'S the lower pick of Washington and Phoenix's pick in 2026.

[Brian Windhorst]

But what it is, there's a decent chance that's gonna be a lottery pick.

[Tim McMahon]

It's 95% likely to be the Sun's pick because Washington's pick is top eight protected. I mean, well.

[Tim Bontemps]

But talking about jumping up too, I think they're saying. I would say it's less than 95% chance.

[Tim McMahon]

95% chance.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay.

[Tim McMahon]

The Wizards pick.

[Brian Windhorst]

I don't know how he got there.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't either.

[Tim McMahon]

I didn't make that number up. The Wizards pick is top eight protected.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay.

[Tim McMahon]

Okay. So likely you can just remove the.

[Brian Windhorst]

Wizards are the number five pick this year. It's not like they have to go that far.

[Tim McMahon]

Right. So you just remove the Wizards from the equation is my point. And then it's 95% likely that the Suns finish.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay. We don't need to spend any time on this.

[Tim McMahon]

The Grizzlies believe they traded for the Sun.

[Tim Bontemps]

Eight years of college math.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, what if the Suns are the 12th pick and they jump up to four and the Wizards, like this.

[Tim Bontemps]

Year when a certain team jumped up.

[Tim McMahon]

From 11, the Wizards are five and their pick's not involved in it.

[Brian Windhorst]

Whatever it is, it's a good valuable pick that they.

[Tim Bontemps]

Then they would get the Wizards pick. But that's fine.

[Tim McMahon]

No, they wouldn't. It's top eight protected. You fart sniffer.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right. Anyway, we'll talk. I want to break this into two spots. We're going to talk about the Orlando side of it. Then we're going to talk about the Memphis side of it. I think the Memphis side of it's more. More interesting from Orlando's perspective. Many people in the league have scratched their head for a long time as to why the Magic, who very badly needed shooting and very badly needed offense, I was very impressed by that 12 year old F150 driving across the road there. I'm very impressed.

[Tim McMahon]

That might have been a motorcycle, but go on.

[Brian Windhorst]

That was a pickup truck.

[Tim McMahon]

Oh, yeehaw.

[Brian Windhorst]

Anyway, thank you, hottie partner. He just tapped his head. Desmond Bain is exactly the type of player the Magic have needed. They didn't do anything at the trade deadline. I'm not expecting them to trade for a player like Desmond Bain at the trade deadline, but they didn't do anything. They had all their picks, plus they had a Denver pick this year. They have the 25th pick in the draft, which belongs to Denver, which is belongs to them from Denver. And they had this future pick that they Also traded. So they had two extra first round picks, expiring salary and they just didn't do anything right. And when they faded down the stretch and then we're an easy out in the first round, I think that that was not well received and I think finally the Magic had to get off of the sideline and they went after a player who they didn't have to give up. Now I know everyone's going to freak out about the four picks and the swap. Let me just say two things and I'll turn it over to Bontemps.

[Tim McMahon]

By the way, it is official. It has been announced.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's official. Okay.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes.

[Brian Windhorst]

Let me say two things. One, they weren't just trading for Desmond Bain who has averaged 20 points and shot 41% over the last three years. They were also trading away Kentavious Caldwell Pope who just had his lowest output season in like 10 years and had two years and 44 million on his contract. I wouldn't say that was a toxic contract, but you certainly wasn't a value contract. So you're offloading kcp. That was, that took some sort of call lost. And they're also getting Desmond Bain who is a borderline all star two way wing player. That is why it cost four first round picks. You can debate about whether that price is right, but just stop short of saying it was four first for Desmond Bain.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I would say, I mean, look, I don't really care about, you know, what the calculus is behind the trade. Right. At the end of the day, this trade.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I do because people are going to say four first for Desmond Bain better be 12 first for Kevin Durant.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's why I'm saying, that's why I don't, I mean I don't care what people in the ether are saying. The bottom line, bottom line is this trade is going to be through one of two prisms. It's either going to be viewed like the Pascal Siakam trade or at the time the Pace was traded for Pascal Siakam, there were plenty of people who questioned whether the value made sense, whether the fit made.

[Brian Windhorst]

They traded three first round picks for him.

[Tim Bontemps]

People were like, ah, the fit's okay. But like, you know, is this really worth it? Or it's going to be viewed like the Mikhail Bridges trademark where they gave up essentially the same kind of package for another guy that hadn't made an all star team. That's a good two way wing. And Pascal Siakam was the trade that unlocked his Pacers team, got them to the Conference finals last year got them to the finals. This year, there's zero people that would say anything other than that. Trade for a young team with a young star and Tyrese Haliburton allowed them to level up and turn them into a true contender in the East. If the Magic next year are in the conference finals or top two in the east and contending for a final spot next few years with this young team, this trade will be viewed that way because this is a finishing piece trade. You get Desmond Bain because you think with him, Jalen Suggs, Franz Wagner, Paolo Banchero, you're good enough to win in the east and get to the finals. Especially now that Boston's out of the way. If they don't get there, if they're losing in the first round again, if they're losing in the second round, if they do kind of top out, this is going to be viewed like, at least for now, the Mikhail Bridges trade looks like, which is the Knicks gave up almost all of their draft ammunition to get a nice player in. Mikhail Bridges, but one that while they did make the conference finals, this year was not a deal that really puts them over the top. And they still look like a team. I mean, they just fired their coach. They have. They have plenty of flaws still, Right? That's the only thing we can find out. That's the thing we can only find out in time. But to me, this trade happened not just because of the lack of action from Orlando, which, by the way, this is the first time Orlando has actively acquired a player in a trade since Markelle Fultz in February of 2019. That's how inactive.

[Brian Windhorst]

And I mean, even that one has an asterisk on it. They bought ridiculously low, right?

[Tim Bontemps]

They bought low on a former number one overall pick who had a shooting problem. So, like, they have not. Jeff Weltman's regime has typically been extraordinarily cautious with their assets. They have now gone all in because clearly they view Desmond Bain as a perfect fit, which I think in a lot of ways he can be. And this goes back to the Jason Tatum injury. The Celtics are not the dominant force in the east anymore. And no disrespect to the Pacers, who I. I'm going to have them as the favorite to get out of the east going into next season, deservedly so, barring crazy changes at the top, but teams around the east are going to look at it and say we can do what Indiana did. Indiana is not an insurmountable force.

[Brian Windhorst]

Agreed.

[Tim Bontemps]

And clearly Orlando looks At this and says, we've got Palo Becero, we've got Franz Wagner, we've got Jalen Suggs. This is our team. We add Desmond Bain to it. He's under contract. This is a move where to me, Orlando should be a top three or four team in the East. They should have home court advantage and they should be pushing to make the conference finals and finals. Like you don't make this trade if you don't believe this puts you in that kind of position. Yeah.

[Tim McMahon]

So listen, there are people who believe Orlando overpaid for Desmond Bain. That's fine. But this is a case of the Orlando Magic sensing an opportunity and seizing the. The seizing the moment.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yep.

[Tim McMahon]

And getting a guy he is Bane will be a great fit in Orlando. Orlando desperately needs offensive creation and three point shooting.

[Brian Windhorst]

And they gave up a lot of picks, but they gave up none of what you would call their young core.

[Tim McMahon]

None of their young core.

[Brian Windhorst]

No Franz Wagner, no Jalen Suggs. Obviously Paolo Banchero is not getting traded. No Anthony Black.

[Tim McMahon]

No Anthony Black. The Magic not only were dead last in three point shooting last year, but according to Jackson Agello, who stole this from Stas, Williams had the worst three point percentage in a season since the Lakers in 1516. Desmond Bain is an elite 41% career shooter, an elite volume three point shooter. And he can, he can shoot it, catch and shoot. That's how he came in the league. He developed a new guy who can shoot it off pick and roll, he can shoot it off all kinds of movement and he's, you know, he's, he might be. They've got three, I would say, very good creators now. They, they don't have that elite creator, but they've got three very good ones now with Banchero, Wagner and Bain. Suggs is really a 3 and D point guard. And you know, I think you might look and say, hold on. The, the magic went 41 and 41 and got bounced early. And like they think they're one splashy move away. And I would say don't judge them on 41 and 41. Obviously there was the, you know, they were just, I mean, Suggs missed most.

[Tim Bontemps]

Of the season, but Jalen Suggs was on the court. They were really good.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

Even when the other guys were hurt.

[Tim McMahon]

20 and 15 when Suggs was on the floor, and that was with Ben Caro and Franz both missing a lot of time. Again, we might, time might prove this to be an overpay, but I love Orlando pouncing on the opportunity in the east and with their roster to add a guy who I think is going to be a great fit and I think he's a great fit with their two best offensive players and with Suggs. Bain's a good. He's a solid defensive player. He needs to have the second toughest assignment in the back quarter.

[Brian Windhorst]

One other thing, I'll say Bane had a slightly down season this year. His scoring dipped, shooting dipped, not massively, but he has slightly down season.

[Tim McMahon]

I think like Ja, that system wasn't great for Bane. The system they shifted off of late in the season.

[Brian Windhorst]

Fair enough. Yeah, fair enough. Okay. Now let's talk about Memphis. Memphis, we're fine in the west, et cetera, et cetera, has gone to the wayside. Yeah, they have been. They have gone out either earlier than they should have been or been sidelined by injuries, what, four straight years now.

[Tim McMahon]

And finding the West 1A playoff series.

[Brian Windhorst]

All I know is this.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yep.

[Brian Windhorst]

When I was in Oklahoma City and the Thunder beat the Wolves in five games last round. Nice catch.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yep.

[Brian Windhorst]

The moments Chris Finch, Wolves coach came in and he goes, I, I don't know. I don't know about. He's talking about how hard it is to get back to the conference finals. There's going to be like 13, 14 teams in the west who think they can win next year. He's like, it's going to be really tough. I started thinking about that a lot and I was looking at each team and I was looking at Memphis and I'm like, how, I wonder how Memphis is going to do that. How is Memphis going to do. Going to go up? And so Memphis makes a trade. Now, look, kcp, they may have gotten, they might have bought low on him.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, they are buying low on. Okay, we'll see if he stays low. They're buying low.

[Brian Windhorst]

They are on paper less talented today than they were yesterday.

[Tim McMahon]

Correct.

[Brian Windhorst]

Their season isn't done, but they are in an absolute arms race in the Western Conference and they have on paper gone down a little bit.

[Tim McMahon]

This was a.

[Brian Windhorst]

What does this mean?

[Tim McMahon]

Well, number one, Zach Kleiman in his exit interview right after they got swept as an eight seed by the Thunder. I don't remember the exact quote quote, but essentially said, we can't act like we're close, like the results are what they are. This is a trade by a general manager who looked at his team, looked at his core and said, I we're not close to contending. This is a. And this is a franchise reset type of deal. It's also a value Proposition trade where, wow, four picks plus a swap.

[Brian Windhorst]

Couldn't say no.

[Tim McMahon]

That Suns pick being the crown jewel of the package. That is great value.

[Brian Windhorst]

I wonder if Jeff Weltman, the. I don't know if he's general manager or president, whatever his title is. I wonder if he heard. I wonder if he heard Jeff. He heard Kleiman, Zach Kleiman say that and went, hm.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, they were. I mean they should give him a call.

[Brian Windhorst]

This guy that I loved for years.

[Tim Bontemps]

They were aggressively, they were aggressively interested in Desmond Bane and for all the reasons we just talked about, he's a perfect fit for the Magic. And look, we've talked a lot about it. The Grizzlies have a lot of wing players. They have Jalen Wells who was his third rookie of the year. They got Gigi Jackson who's a talented player, who's obviously a bit of a mercurial fit. We'll see what he develops. Like they've got Vince Williams who barely played last year. Now they have kcp who I think will look much better there. Not saying he's going to be great for them, but I think he'll be better there. Playing in under Tomasi Salo is going to be a fast paced three point shooting pace and space kind of system which is much different than the Magic who were just basically running into a wall on offense all the time and didn't have anybody to set him up like Nikola Jokic was setting him up in Denver. John Morant's not Nikola Jokic, but he's going to get better open looks. I suspect he will play better.

[Tim McMahon]

So what I will tell you is this, this is a franchise reset for the Grizzlies. It is not the first step of a rebuild.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, so stop right there. When this deal happened, the reaction in the league is okay. The Desmond Bain thing, it's a big, big price they got for him. Is this the start? Because this has reminiscence of trading Royce o' Neill ahead of trading Gobert and.

[Tim McMahon]

Then why would they do that?

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, so very quickly the Grizzlies got it out there. That's not what this is.

[Tim McMahon]

So I'm just going to tell you. But the Grizzlies still firmly view John Morant as the face of that franchise.

[Brian Windhorst]

Got it.

[Tim McMahon]

Everything they've done over the last helped.

[Tim Bontemps]

Me out on time.

[Tim McMahon]

More like few months, you know, going back to the coaching change, going back to these scrapping the system. Remember they brought Noah LaRoche. Noah LaRoche. They brought Noah LaRoche in paid him a seven figure salary. Let him implement a very unconventional system that in some ways worked. But it took away from Ja Morant. Ja hated it. Ja was not going to be happy. Ja was not going to play in that system long term. Noah LaRoche is gone along with, you know, with Taylor Jenkins, who the writing was on the wall for Taylor. Iassala wants to play a pick and roll heavy system. John Moran is still the. He's the son of the Grizzlies universe. The only way that John Moran is getting moved is if he pounds on the door says get me out of here. I don't have any information saying that that's a likelihood.

[Tim Bontemps]

Neither do I. And this trade makes it even easier to get Jaylen Jaren Jackson Jr. Signed to a renegotiation and extended big contract to have him in Memphis long term, which the Grizzlies expect to do.

[Brian Windhorst]

They offloaded salary in this deal and it opens, it makes it there is it.

[Tim Bontemps]

They already had the ability to do it. Now they have even more ability.

[Brian Windhorst]

All signs point toward Jaren Jackson Jr. Being able to get a contract extension this summer and therefore not being traded.

[Tim McMahon]

This is about. Let's figure out how to best build a contender around their big two.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's.

[Tim McMahon]

Desmond Bain was the odd man out.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's it. John Moran is extension eligible this summer.

[Tim McMahon]

We'll see on that.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay.

[Tim McMahon]

There's got to be a two way.

[Brian Windhorst]

Street there and then. And we agree that they're probably farther away with this roster.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, I would say they're taking a small step back. Yes, with the potential to be better in the future, but they haven't taken the step forward.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's a step back.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, but again. Well, again, I mean you're being very, you're being very demonstrative about that. I would say what it is is smart and a smart recognition of where the team is. Like, I think this trade makes a lot of sense for both teams. We have talked about for going on two years that like you said, why isn't Orlando doing something? They need to upgrade this roster. They need to get shooting on the team. Desmond Bain is a great fit. He makes a lot of sense there. As you said, McMahon, you covered that series. You watched the way this Memphis season ended. They fired Taylor Jenkins at the end of the year. The fit there was not great across the roster. The team was not nearly good enough.

[Tim McMahon]

Right.

[Tim Bontemps]

They get an absolute massive return for Desmond Bain and they have guys who can do, I would say probably 60 to 70% of what Desmond Bain was doing. They're not as good as Desmond Bain but they, but they can do some of it.

[Tim McMahon]

Here's the thing and they also have.

[Tim Bontemps]

Going forward especially in this pick next year a very high level asset now and they have you know, future draft picks, future swaps.

[Brian Windhorst]

By the way they got a lot.

[Tim Bontemps]

Of stuff they could do to augment the roster going forward to try to have a higher ceiling.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Magic with who will have Franz Wagner's max contract and Jalen Suggs big contract and Desmond Baines already max contract contract. Is he a max just under. Just under the max.

[Tim McMahon]

No, he's a max guy. He's. He's a fun max guy.

[Tim Bontemps]

I thought it was just under but.

[Brian Windhorst]

Either way the Magic are are now an apron team which has been a long time since they've been had a high payroll.

[Tim McMahon]

The one thing I want to mention on Memphis, this is certainly a step back for them offensively. What it does though Jay, the Wells they see as a potentially premier type of 3 and D role player. He's going to be a starter on the wing alongside kcp. They, they, they want size and length and defense around around John Moran.

[Tim Bontemps]

Obviously they went last year to try to get Dorian, Finney Smith. They ran on all those kind of guys last year.

[Brian Windhorst]

Everything I just, I just want to say this, everything that you guys are saying is a message from Memphis. Okay. I hear skepticism, criticism from else from elsewhere.

[Tim McMahon]

Again I'm not I the only way I could see anything happening with Jaws if Jaw were to force it and I don't have information saying that's like I know.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm just saying that teams in the league watch this move and we're like this is an indication of going one way, not the other. That's all. I'm not saying that's my opinion.

[Tim McMahon]

I'm saying I think it's a reset, not a rebuild and they've got big time assets now like that feature Phoenix pick in particular has got significant value.

[Brian Windhorst]

To where as the Phoenix picks keep getting traded. These Phoenix picks that have been traded out are starting to get traded elsewhere. I feel like there's going to be lots of people who are putting them in big deals.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean yes, it's an acknowledgement of a direction but it's also like again it's an acknowledgment of where they sit in the West. If you said to every team in the league basically hey you can get four unprotected firsts including one that's just outside the lottery in a good draft, this Year and one that's got a very good chance of being, at minimum, a lottery pick. Probably a top 10 pick.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay. I can get 10 unprotected. First for Shai. I'm not trading him.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, but that's. Again, no. So that's a silly straw man thing to say because Shay Gillis Alexander is not Desmond Bain, and the Thunder are not the Grizzlies.

[Tim McMahon]

Can I ask a question?

[Brian Windhorst]

I know, but it has to do with value of players versus the players you actually have, which is.

[Tim McMahon]

Is.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, but it's. Again, if you're Memphis, why would you. Goes back to what said two months ago.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes. In 2020, the Thunder were focused on trading players for pick value because they were going one direction. So when you're an organization that trades a player for pick value, you're not. You're going one direction. That's all I'm saying.

[Tim McMahon]

It damn sure ain't a win. Now move. It's the opposite. It's the opposite of DeMarcus.

[Brian Windhorst]

Smart trade stuff over and over.

[Tim McMahon]

Oh, no. I got an important question.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah?

[Tim McMahon]

Do you guys like each other?

[Brian Windhorst]

It's still up in the air. All right, one more thing before we have to go, because I'd like to watch some of the US Open if you want to.

[Tim McMahon]

Oh, well, gee whiz. Priority.

[Tim Bontemps]

I gotta pick a basketball player. I thought it was gonna be 12 minutes.

[Brian Windhorst]

Me too.

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[Brian Windhorst]

Kevin Durant Sham's report over the weekend that Durant really wants to be traded only to the Heat. Pacers or Rockets? Pacers.

[Tim McMahon]

Pacers.

[Brian Windhorst]

Breaking news by Wendy Heat, spurs or Rockets? When Matt Ishbia named Brian Gregory the general manager he came out and said 34 different times. However, alignment, alignment, alignment, alignment. We're going to have alignment. I'm not so sure they're worried about alignment with Kevin Durant and where he's going to get traded.

[Tim McMahon]

Well and that's the thing they were letting people know we will work with kd. But it's I think it's becoming clear that doesn't necessarily mean KD is in charge of the, of the trade destination stuff. And there's a few things that go into this. Number one, are any of those teams going all in with their Katy offers? I would say no. Or trade probably would have been done or would be on the on the goal line right now. You know, I know like I'm best sourced in Houston. I think they would really like to have Kevin Durant at what they consider to be a reasonable cost which I don't think the Suns are would consider.

[Brian Windhorst]

I don't think he's on sale to.

[Tim McMahon]

Be an appealing return. And then you get to okay, you know, if you're a Minnesota, you know you've mentioned the Clippers, the Raptors. If you're one of these teams who aren't on KD's preferred list of destination nations. How much are you willing to pay to get a guy who the threat is he's a rental. Now Toronto's had a hell of a lot of success with the rental before.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, but not with this.

[Tim McMahon]

But this is a different like that Toronto does not have that infrastructure in place as they did when they, when they got Kawhi. You could argue Minnesota may hey conference finals team the last two years.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well the thought process, if you're trading Durant without a firm understanding that he wants to be there is that we're gonna offer him a two year hundred million dollar extension and he can't get two years $100 million from everybody out there.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

And that, that's what you're gonna say. You're gonna say we're gonna be better with you. We're gonna be great with you and we're gonna pay you a lot of money. I don't know where Durant is on that.

[Tim McMahon]

I mean, and he's eligible for what it's like 2 years, 122 is the max, I believe, whatever it is. And you can buy a lot of winter coats with that.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm gonna be supposed. If the Suns get an offer like the one the Magic gave for Desmond Bain for Gavin Durant. And so my question the entire time with this trade has been what are the Suns going to do when they get to the finishing line? And it's a middling return, which I think this trade, whatever it ends up being, I think definitionally it's going to be a middling return. And are they going to do that or are they going to say this is not enough because Kevin Durant is 37. We saw last year the Suns were a mediocre to bad team and he and Devin Booker were pretty healthy all season. They have a lot of issues with the roster, but also those guys did not lift them up in the way they were supposed to. And so when you couple that with having to give him a two year extension for somewhere north of 115 or 20 million dollars, that's a lot of things to take on in a trade for a guy who at this point in his career also not sure he's going to able to play more than 55%.

[Brian Windhorst]

I think you're exactly right. I think it's, I think the tough is the alignment. It's not just the alignment between Durant and the Suns. It's.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

Does a team who's trading for him, depending on what he says, like depending on how firm he might slam the table and say I don't want to be there. How does the team feel about giving what they feel is a good offer for a player who's saying I don't want to be there.

[Tim McMahon]

Well, and you're, you're trading for Kevin Durant so he can be the finishing piece to a contender. So you like, you can't, you can only give up so much if he's gonna be the, you can only give up so many pieces if he's the finishing piece.

[Brian Windhorst]

There's a lot of. To your point, there's a lot of people who need to try to feel good about this and it's gonna be hard to get everybody to feel good about this.

[Tim McMahon]

The Suns paid a premium for him. They're not getting close to that in return.

[Tim Bontemps]

The experts have been thrown out in Phoenix. So the one person that matters, I'm going by Matt Ishbia's words. Listen to the experts. The experts didn't lead me in the right direction. It's more of me. Okay, what is Matt Ishbia going to do when the trade that's put in front of him is less than what Memphis got for Desmond Bay? Is he going to say this is the best we can do, we've got to move forward, or is he going to say that's not good enough? Because look, if Phoenix gets the offer they got for Desmond Bain, good for them, God bless them. I don't see that happening.

[Brian Windhorst]

By the way, Phoenix, it would be smart for them to trade him for just pure draft picks, but they won't.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, they have to trade him for the most they can get, whatever that is, whether it's players or picks or a combination thereof, because they just have no assets at all. They have barely any players that are worth trading and they have barely any draft picks to trade. So they've got to get the most stuff. And the problem is.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, but I'm going to tell you something. I don't know if Matt is wants a trade, well, that's going to make his team worse.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, here's the saying. If you look at any of these offers they're going to get, it's. You're, you're not going to. I guarantee the average fan listening is going to hear the offer for Kevin Durant and go, man, that's all the Suns could get for Kevin Durant. I mean, I will be the first to say if they get six first round picks back, basically replace what they got the first time, it's probably going to be a deal where you go, man, that's all they could do. And they have to stop digging. They have to start going another direction. They have to start building something out. I'm just fascinated to see what that conversation is like once this deal gets to the finish line because I think we all expect this deal to be done by the draft. Like it seems like it's headed that way.

[Brian Windhorst]

There's a decent chance there's going to be picks in this draft in the, in the deal.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah, the best thing they could do is to make a deal with Houston where they get youth, athleticism and their picks back. The Rockets aren't trying to make that deal.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's right. They're not. I don't think they're pick. So the Rockets have two firsts, one of them.

[Tim McMahon]

The Rockets have three. They had this one this year the lottery pick this year and two more going forward.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's a product of a swap. This year. It's a product of a swap.

[Tim McMahon]

Right. And then they have two future unprotected going forward.

[Brian Windhorst]

There's two unprotecteds out there. They won't necessarily end up in Houston. It's a long story. But the problem, the point is they've got two plus one, plus a swap. So we will be talking probably about a Kevin Durant trade soon, I think. All right. Going to go watch us open. Oh, Bon Temps has to go right about the Desmond Bane trade.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's true.

[Brian Windhorst]

McMahon has to. I got polish his hat.

[Tim McMahon]

No, I got to get ready for pickup basketball. I've got my hyper ice back. I left it in okc. I'm going to go. Little treatment, some icy hot, some hyper ice. And we got pickup hoops, six o' clock tonight.

[Brian Windhorst]

Nothing but the full faith in you that your basketball experience will be fulfilling, rewarding, and that you'll do great.

[Tim McMahon]

Well, I want you to come sit court side so I can do that ball your face trick again. Wait.

[Brian Windhorst]

Thank you to Jackson and Rafa and Blair, our producers here in Oklahoma City. Thank you, Tipsy Tiki, for hosting us yet again. Will we be here before game seven?

[Tim Bontemps]

We're gonna be here for game seven.

[Brian Windhorst]

By the way, who said they were gonna be two back? Come back. Two, two.

[Tim McMahon]

Hey.

[Brian Windhorst]

Thank you to McMahon and Bonsem.

[Tim McMahon]

We'll be sitting right here with Scott Foster.

[Tim Bontemps]

Should make more predictions. You actually got one more.

[Brian Windhorst]

God, Scott Foster, be a great guest. Thank you for watching and listening to the Hoop Collective. We'll talk to you in a couple. In a day or something.

[Tim McMahon]

Adios, amigos.