Warriors Legit Contenders, Mavs Disaster To Include Forfeits??

Summary

Hoops Collective Podcast Summary Episode Title: Warriors Legit Contenders, Mavs Disaster To Include Forfeits??
Release Date: March 17, 2025
Hosts: Brian Windhorst, Tim Bontemps, Bobby Marks

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1. Golden State Warriors: Solidifying Their Contending Status

The episode opens with an in-depth analysis of the Golden State Warriors' impressive performance following the recent trade that brought Jimmy Butler to the team. Host Brian Windhorst highlights the Warriors' outstanding record since the trade, noting they are 13-2 (or 14-2, as mentioned) in their last 15 games. Tim Bontemps adds context by sharing key statistics:

“The Warriors have an offensive rating of 120.5, which is fifth in the league, and a defensive rating of 108.2, second only to Detroit over the past several weeks. Their net rating of 12.4 is second only to the Cavs corner” ([09:12] Tim Bontemps).

Bobby Marks complements this by emphasizing Butler’s role:

“Jimmy ... gives them a major dose of toughness. Another IQ guy. And he's fit great there” ([07:28] Bobby Marks).

The trio discusses the Warriors' high assist rate of 74.5%, the best in the league, attributing it to excellent ball movement and the emergence of Tyrese Haliburton as a key playmaker.

2. Miami Heat: Struggling Post Trade Deadline

Transitioning to the Miami Heat, the hosts express concern over the team's dramatic downturn since acquiring Jimmy Butler. Tim Bontemps presents alarming statistics:

“The Miami Heat have been outscored by 28.9 points per 100 possessions in the fourth quarter. Their offensive rating is 92.9, which is beyond horrific, and their defensive rating is 121.8” ([06:57] Tim Bontemps).

Brian counters with the context that a similar decline isn't unique to the Heat, drawing a parallel with the Celtics’ fourth-quarter struggles.

3. Houston Rockets: Navigating a Troubled Season

The discussion shifts to the Houston Rockets, who have been plagued by injuries and roster constraints. Bobby Marks points out the team's reliance on young talent:

“Jalen Green ... he's not going to get close [to superstar status], but ... he's putting up good numbers” ([07:28] Bobby Marks).

Tim emphasizes the Rockets' challenging path due to limited depth and the impact of key players like Fred VanVleet and Amen Thompson returning from injuries.

4. Dallas Mavericks: On the Brink of Forfeiture

A significant portion of the episode delves into the Dallas Mavericks' dire situation, where they face the possibility of forfeiting games due to insufficient active players. The hosts explain the complexities surrounding the Mavericks' salary cap and roster management:

“At the trade deadline, Dallas became $50,000 below the first apron, leaving them unable to sign additional players even in the face of multiple injuries” ([26:52] Tim Bontemps).

Bobby Marks elaborates on the roster issues:

“They have three two-way guys and are running out of available two-way spots. They're in a position where they might have to forfeit a game” ([29:25] Bobby Marks).

Tim further explains the implications of the Mavericks' financial constraints, highlighting the team's inability to secure a hardship waiver:

“The league can't offer them relief because teams must adhere to hard salary cap limits. Dallas' lack of foresight has compounded their predicament” ([30:13] Tim Bontemps).

5. Personal Anecdotes and Light-Hearted Moments

Amidst the heavy discussions, Brian Windhorst shares a humorous story about his seven-year-old son's basketball teams, showcasing the lighter side of the podcast:

“My wife ... brought in three ringers ... now they're 3-0 and holding their medals” ([34:58] Brian Windhorst).

This segment adds a personable touch, engaging listeners with relatable family moments.

6. Celebrating the Memphis Grizzlies’ "Grit and Grind" Legacy

The podcast concludes with a heartfelt tribute to the Memphis Grizzlies, focusing on the legacy of Tony Allen and the "Grit and Grind" era. The hosts admire the team's cultural impact despite not securing a championship:

“The Grizzlies ... epitomized what it means to have an unstoppable drive and are shaking up the status quo in their community and beyond” ([13:33] Snoop Dogg Advertiser).

Tim Bontemps reflects on the unique appreciation for the Grizzlies:

“I wish there was more celebration for teams that are good but aren't quite enough to win championships. The Grizzlies resonated deeply because of their unique style and character” ([53:32] Tim Bontemps).

Brian Windhorst adds:

“They have great fans and have been one of the best examples of organically building a team's persona to match their market” ([55:06] Brian Windhorst).

7. Closing Remarks

In their final moments, the hosts briefly touch upon recent performances from the Cleveland Cavaliers and upcoming matchups, maintaining the episode’s focus on current NBA dynamics. They also address a humorous interruption from Tim's Broadway experience and wrap up the episode with camaraderie and anticipation for future discussions.

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Notable Quotes:

• Tim Bontemps [01:07]: “In the first month of the season, he won coach of the month. The second month of the season, he got fired.”

• Bobby Marks [07:28]: “Jimmy ... gives them a major dose of toughness. Another IQ guy. And he's fit great there.”

• Tim Bontemps [06:57]: “The Miami Heat have been outscored by 28.9 points per 100 possessions in the fourth quarter. Their offensive rating is 92.9, which is beyond horrific, and their defensive rating is 121.8.”

• Bobby Marks [29:25]: “They have three two-way guys and are running out of available two-way spots. They're in a position where they might have to forfeit a game.”

• Tim Bontemps [53:32]: “I wish there was more celebration for teams that are good but aren't quite enough to win championships. The Grizzlies resonated deeply because of their unique style and character.”

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This episode of Hoops Collective provided a comprehensive examination of the current NBA landscape, highlighting the resurgence of the Golden State Warriors, the struggles of the Miami Heat and Dallas Mavericks, the challenges faced by the Houston Rockets, and a heartfelt appreciation for the Memphis Grizzlies’ enduring legacy. Through engaging discussions and insightful analysis, the hosts delivered a rich and informative episode for NBA enthusiasts.

Transcript

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[Brian Windhorst]

Hello, welcome to the Hoops Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Sunday evening. Joining us from the Barclays center in Brooklyn, New York, it's Tim Bontemps.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hello, everybody.

[Brian Windhorst]

You know when you're in the, you're in the press conference room there. Two of my favorite moments from that press conference room, Bud Thames. One you were, I think maybe one you were there for. One was when Mikhail Prokorov fired Avery Johnson. Avery Johnson had been named coach of the month in November or December. And then like a month later, he fired him.

[Tim Bontemps]

And in, no, in, in the first month of the season, he won coach of the month. The second month of the season, he got fired.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. Okay. So I don't know, it was like a Tuesday and somebody asked a question about, you know, procrast holding this press.

[Tim Bontemps]

Conference and standing against the wall over here because he's not just stand, he.

[Brian Windhorst]

Was wearing a sweater that I ballparked the retail value of to be about $4,000. So he was asked, when did you make this decision? He goes, oh, I made the decision last Friday. And he kind of said a few things. And then somebody asked a follow up, wait a minute, if you made the decision last Friday, why did you not fire him until like yesterday, you know, four days later?

[Tim Bontemps]

He had a very good reason for that.

[Brian Windhorst]

He goes, oh, I was hella skiing in, in British Columbia and the drifts were up to here.

[Tim Bontemps]

He held up to his shoulder and he's six, eight. I'll remind everybody.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, which I loved. I also loved P.J. kimo became the interim head coach and he said he was having a meeting with Broker off the next day to talk about the job. And, and they, and we said, pj, what are you hoping to get out of the meeting? He goes, lunch. The other thing was when we were in there for media day one year and I'm coming and I sit down. It was the year that, it was the, the year right after like the first normal year after Covid and we found out like five minutes before that. Kyrie wasn't going to be there because he hadn't gotten vaccinated. And so I'm working with Woj on the story. We're trying to get the story out or whatever. And I sit down and I look to the left of me because and, and like they were spaced out. The chairs were spaced out, you know, social distancing. So it was, you know, like four feet to my left. And I looked to my left and I looked again. I was like, God damn, that looks like David Letterman. But it can't be David Letterman in the Brooklyn Nets preseason media or the, you know, the media day. But it was David Letterman, which is another story. All right, joining us from Dallas, Texas, where soon he's off to the west coast to see the Golden State Warriors. The red hot Golden State warriors is Ban McMahon.

[Bobby Marks]

Howdy, partners. Yeah, I've got a little west coast swing coming up and I was DNC rest today. Did not cover due to rest. The Mavs versus Sixers.

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean, this is an absolutely flagrant abuse of power that you are going to just take the day off and then fly to the west coast instead of being in the locker room writing about Mav Sixers, which ABC also dropped.

[Bobby Marks]

Yeah, once ABC dropped it. Once I took a little look at first my travel itinerary, then the injury list. I'm like, eh, we don't need me there today. So skip that one.

[Brian Windhorst]

I saw someone from the Mavericks and maybe this was multiple people of the Mavericks media. There was only 18 active players between these two teams today or something like that.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm surprised there were more than 16.

[Bobby Marks]

I was gonna say were there 18. That's. The Mavericks had eight, which is, as you know, the league minimum. And not the first time they've been just, you know, the skin of their teeth able to feel the roster.

[Tim Bontemps]

Although the Sixers did actually play 10 guys today. They only played eight on Friday against Indiana. Another game and I was at.

[Brian Windhorst]

I think there were 18 active. I mean, there were.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean There were definitely 18 active. There were definitely 18 active.

[Brian Windhorst]

There were only 18 players between the two teams that are. That were able to play, I guess.

[Tim Bontemps]

And they all played.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, well, you're going out to see the Warriors, McMahon. The warriors on Saturday night. It was a bit of an ugly game, but they beat The Knicks by 3. The Knicks keeping their head above water with. Without Jalen Brunson. They're 2 and 2 on this west coast trip, but that made it. Well, actually, you know what? Let's go Farther back on February 6th, which I believe was the trade deadline. They might have made the.

[Tim Bontemps]

That is correct.

[Brian Windhorst]

Was the Jimmy Butler trade go down that day or the day before, whatever.

[Bobby Marks]

It was, I believe.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, they were 25 and 26 when they made the Jimmy Butler trade. They are now 39 and 28. So that's 13 and 2 since that time. And I think that's correct. I think they're 12 and one with Butler actually in the lineup. And it's not like he's putting up enormous numbers. But this has been, you know, one of the stories of the season, this Jimmy Butler trade. First off, the Miami Heat have taken it. I mean, Jimmy wasn't playing beforehand, but the. The trade did not help them. The Heat of nosedive. They've lost seven games in a row and.

[Tim Bontemps]

Can I. Can I interrupt you to give you one truly unbelievable stat?

[Brian Windhorst]

At least he asked to interrupt McMahon.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes, you may like to interrupt me without asking all the time.

[Bobby Marks]

He went to some sort of Broadway show today. So he has manners.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes, that's why he's dressed so nicely.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I'm dressed this way because I was working, but the Miami Heat in the fourth quarter. Well, first of all, after losing very badly to the Memphis Grizzlies. We'll talk about later Saturday night, The Heat are 4 and 14 since the trade deadline. The main reason for that is the Miami Heat have not played well at all in the fourth quarter over the past five weeks. You guys want to take a guess at the net rating of the Miami Heat? Over 100 possessions over the past five weeks is in the fourth quarter.

[Brian Windhorst]

So just in case our listeners don't know, just to refresh. Net rating is per 100 possessions, the difference in the score, how much are being outscored by.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yep. Yeah, I'm gonna say that only in the fourth quarter.

[Bobby Marks]

Minus 16. I'm gonna go big. Minus 16.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, we got Brian.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, they only scored 91 points against the Grizzlies on Saturday, so my guess is it didn't help.

[Bobby Marks]

No, the fourth quarter didn't matter, though.

[Tim Bontemps]

The fourth quarter. They were blown out in that game. Most of the games have been competitive, and then they've been slaughtered in the fourth quarter. What do you think their net rating in the fourth quarter has been since.

[Brian Windhorst]

The trade deadline when you. You sort of moved past that, McMahon. 16. Like you were unfazed. So I might take the over, but only because I'm just trying to guess because I don't know.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, so it is over. Ironically, the Celtics are negative 16.

[Bobby Marks]

It's definitely over in Miami, but go on.

[Tim Bontemps]

The Celtics have the 28th worst net rating in the fourth quarter since trade deadline. They're 13 and 3. They've been outscored by 16 points per 100 possessions in the fourth quarter.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. But some. Some of that's garbage time, but sure, go on.

[Tim Bontemps]

The Miami Heat have been outscored by 28.9 points for 100 possessions in the fourth quarter. They have an offensive rating of 92.9, which is, like, beyond horrific, and a defensive rating of 121.8.

[Bobby Marks]

Okay, so we can say the warriors appear to be winning the Jimmy Butler trade.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm going to be honest with you. You might. If you had four competent NBA players and you played four on five, you might be able to do better than.

[Bobby Marks]

Negative 20 -28.9 is pretty impressive.

[Tim Bontemps]

And the crazy thing is for the Heat. Not to turn this into a, like a long Heat discussion, but their. Their numbers, like, in the other three quarters are fine. They just. They have gotten repeatedly obliterated in the fourth quarter against. Which is why they have had an awful month.

[Bobby Marks]

That was a.

[Tim Bontemps]

Don't say worries. Have not an awful month.

[Bobby Marks]

That was a brief interruption. Wendy.

[Tim Bontemps]

Sorry, I just. I was looking that up yesterday.

[Brian Windhorst]

I thought that is a flabbergasting.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I thought it was worth. I thought it was worth the dimension.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, my God.

[Bobby Marks]

And then the warriors just. I covered their lone loss with Jimmy Butler in the lineup. It was against the Mavs, you know, when Kyrie was healthy and. But, you know, like you said, it's not like Jimmy's come in and is, you know, going for 28, 8 and 8. He's putting up good numbers, but it's like 16, 6 and 6. But like, he just. He has just fit and everything blows and hums and he gives, like, he gives them a major dose of toughness. Another IQ guy. And he's fit great there. I thought, I wonder if the shooting, the lack of shooting with him and Draymond specifically playing together would be a problem. It certainly has not been. And I think if you're talking about kind of intangible value of Jimmy Butler, the spark of, you know, enthusiasm and life that this gave Steph Curry has been huge. And this was. You remember, Steph was the one who's like, hey, basically, if. If there's not a move there that makes sense, fine. But it was almost like if. If we don't have a chance to contend this year. Okay, I agree with not Morgan Mortgage in our future for something that doesn't make sense. They didn't have to mortgage their future. They got a move that makes sense and Steph is playing as well as he ever has.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, some numbers on Golden State really quick warriors since the trade. As Brian mentioned, they're now 14.2offensive rating 120.5 which is fifth in the league over the past several weeks. Defensive rating of 108.2, which is second only. Detroit over the past several weeks. A net rating of 12.4 which is second only. The Cavs corner over the past several weeks, including Cavs corners. Untimely defeat this afternoon to the Magic.

[Brian Windhorst]

Untimely.

[Tim Bontemps]

And it's untimely that they didn't keep their winning streak going into the play.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's funny.

[Tim Bontemps]

And the warriors have. I was going to check and see what the difference is before the trade, but since the trade they have an assist rate or assist percentage of 74 and a half, which is by far the highest in the league. Way ahead of Indiana, which not surprising with the way Tyrese Halberton is playing is in second. So they're moving the ball, sharing the ball. They're playing great at both ends and they've been on an unbelievable hot streak.

[Bobby Marks]

The only reason they're not running away like and safe As a top 16 is because the Timberwolves aren't losing games right now either. Both these teams have seven game winning streaks. I don't know if either of them play tonight, but both of them have seven game winning streaks which the longest in the league right now.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. And Golden State is in the middle of a seven game homestand. I'm not sure how many they've got left. But you talk, you know, you talked about the defensive rating. This is what has gotten them actually truly excited because you could have a hot streak where you're playing a bunch of home games and maybe Steph is red hot or a couple of your role players are red hot. They're winning this, they're winning these games over this last 15, this 13 and 2 or it's 13 and 2 or 14 and 2. I looked up the last 15.

[Tim Bontemps]

14.

[Brian Windhorst]

I looked up the last. Okay, I looked up the last 15 games. They were, you know, second in the league in defense in that time. And so that's the basis for doing something. They teams haven't punished their lack of size. They're able to get away with that. I don't know if how much they're going to be able to get away with the medium term.

[Tim Bontemps]

But well, it is, it is interesting if you look through the teams they've played, there haven't been a whole lot of real challenging opponents in this stretch and it will be really interesting. You know, McMahon is going to be at this Denver game Monday night. I am really curious to see how the warriors look against the Nuggets and Nicole Jokic because to me, I feel like if they play anybody in the West, I would feel pretty good about picking them except for Denver and Oklahoma City because of the size those teams have inside. And I, I don't really like Golden State's ability to handle that over seven games and it will be interesting to see how they look against Jokic and against the Nuggets and get a decent look at what that might look like if they match up.

[Brian Windhorst]

They have three, three games left on this home, on this home stand right.

[Bobby Marks]

And right after the Nuggets, they'll get another great chance to measure up against a big team.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's Milwaukee. Yeah.

[Bobby Marks]

With, with the Bucks coming in, obviously with, with Giannis is the headliner of a huge front court.

[Brian Windhorst]

So they're I you know, a week ago I was looking at everybody who was in front of them and I saw a bunch of teams that were banged up and specifically the Rockets who Fred Van Vliet had been out for a while, he'd come back and then got re injured and Amen Thompson, remember last weekend we were saying Amen Thompson, you know, sprained his ankle and he's been such a key piece for them. And I was thinking maybe they could make up some ground on Houston because they were like three games back.

[Bobby Marks]

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[Brian Windhorst]

You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries. You wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns. McDonald's breakfast comes first. They have made up no ground on Houston because the Rockets have gotten Van Vliet back and lifted their offense. They're still not a great offensive team, but he's helped them and you know, they win games with defense. It helped that they played the Mavs the other day. That always will help you out.

[Bobby Marks]

Well, it'll help if they play the Sixers tomorrow.

[Tim Bontemps]

Also true.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right.

[Bobby Marks]

And help if they played the Suns before the Mavericks, if we want to.

[Brian Windhorst]

Be honest, and the Pelicans twice before that. But that's their win streak. They have won six in a row, by the way.

[Tim Bontemps]

They've got the, they've got, yeah, they've got Philly, Orlando, Miami, then one game against Denver and then Atlanta and the Jazz and the Suns. They could rip off a whole bunch of wins in a row here and put themselves in really strong position going into a pretty tough closing couple weeks in April to legitimately have the two seed, which would be a heck of an accomplishment.

[Bobby Marks]

And amen. Thompson is not like he, he'll be out or, I'm sorry, he'll be back in March. When exactly I couldn't tell you. But like he's not going to be out long.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's very good news given how that initially looked.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. Van Vliet had his first. He had 23 points against the Bulls on Saturday night. That was the first sort of game he looked kind of right coming back.

[Bobby Marks]

Also helped to play the Bulls.

[Brian Windhorst]

But yes, that's true. That's true. You have to play who's in front. A lot of.

[Tim Bontemps]

There's a lot of those games right now.

[Brian Windhorst]

Hey, but listen, you know, like that's what, that's what you have to have 100%.

[Bobby Marks]

And for the Rockets, it's really, it's still, you got to look at them with a big picture view. Like the great thing about them competing for this seating right now and you know they're going to be a playoff team is that their young guys are going to get experience and it's a phenomenal chance to be able to evaluate those young guys. So, you know, and by evaluating, a lot of this is like, hey, is that star potentially already on the roster? Is that number one guy that they can build around, the kind of guy you need to be able to contend for a championship? Is that on the roster? And I just spent a week in Houston. I'm working on a story along those lines. I can tell you that from Emea Doka on up through the top, you know, to the, to ownership, the hope is that that guy is on the roster. And there's a really high bar as far as if they're gonna package stuff this summer and go after somebody. I'm not saying, like, look, they'll have at least internal discussions about, you know, obviously Kevin Durant could be on the block. If we can go down the list of other star level players who might be on the block, they'll at least have internal discussions how aggressive they'll be. They need to evaluate their guys first and foremost, and that'll tell you a lot of that. But they feel like, you know, there's maybe four or five guys on that roster who have a chance, including Bon Tim's favorite shooting guard, Jalen Green.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I think the, when, when the Rockets signed Jalen Green to that innovative or at least unusual big contract last summer, it was partially because they believed in him, but they didn't know what his ceiling was. It was sort of like, we want to reward him because he had a great finish to last year, but we're not sure he's a superstar player, so let's give him a contract.

[Bobby Marks]

And it's not so much not knowing what a ceiling is, it's just like, okay, you can say a guy has superstar potential, but if the reality is he's not going to get close to it, that's one thing. And the efficiency and consistency is still not there. I'm going to say something that might sound a little blasphemous, but compare Jalen Green's first four years statistically to Devin Booker's. Just put the numbers up. It's not that different. Jalen Green.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, no, man, they're. They are not similar players.

[Bobby Marks]

Okay? I'm just telling you, it's the stats, the first four year stats, when, you know, starting in their teens, going on, on rebuilding teams. You know, Jalen Green has started for a team that last year went.500. This year is maybe going to win 50 games. We'll see. You know the other thing they love about Jalen Green, the guy does not miss games. He Plays every single night. He's not missed a game under email. Doka but you know, they'll tell, they'll tell you that maybe their most talented offensive player is Reed Shepherd. He's hurt now, but he's not a rotation player.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right.

[Bobby Marks]

I still think he has a chance. Somebody there asked me with Amin Thompson who obviously like he's, he's going to be a star, can he be that offensive engine? They said, tell me what Russell Westbrook and his peak could do that this kid doesn't have a chance to do. It's an interesting question.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm gonna, I'm a big Amend Thompson, Blake. I'll just leave it at that.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Rockets love their players. That I can, that I can verify. I verify that. I will say, you know, you know they need offense and since the All Star break, Alperin Shingoon has been playing his best offensive basketball, some of the best stretch of his offensive basketball his career. He's averaging 2110 and a half on 55% shooting since the All Star break. So he is strengthening as the season goes along. And look, I am not going to overreact to strength of schedule rankings because you can have a tough schedule, then you play two games and all of a sudden you have like a easy schedule because we're getting down closer to the end here. But I will say this right now, the Rockets are in a, are in a three way tie for the second seed and the Lakers are one game back. Lakers won on Sunday, Luka had a good game. They beat the Suns. The Suns continue to be ridiculous but anyway, so I'm going to call all four of those teams roughly tied. The Lakers are one game back. The Rockets have the easiest strength of schedule amongst those four teams coming in. Doesn't mean that they're favored. I haven't talked to BPI and listen to their mumbo jumbo. It should be noted however, if you're looking to try to figure out how that's going to go and Bontemps read off their upcoming games. The Rockets have have an easier path. And you said the outlook on Amend Thompson. You know, I think Sean said today LeBron's at least a week away.

[Bobby Marks]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

So Lakers are starting to get some.

[Tim Bontemps]

Of their guys back and there are some tests later. They have the Lakers, they have the Lakers twice over the final two weeks of the season. Got a game against the Thunder, game against the warriors, game against the Clippers, game the final day of the regular season against the Nuggets, which could be a very important game. For everybody involved, there's, there's some, you know, there's some real tests down the stretch, which is why they got to take advantage of these soft games coming up because, you know, it's going to, it's certainly for a young team, it's going to matter a lot if they can get home court in the first round and be able to start a series at home instead of going on the road to play one of these veteran teams.

[Bobby Marks]

And they want their guys to have those tests. You know, Rafael Stone and Patrick Vertida and Ime Adoka want to see their guys in big time pressure situations. They want to see how all those dudes that we just mentioned, you know, Reed Shepherd's probably not going to be part of it this year, but the other guys who are, you know, even your Jabari Smith juniors, Tari Eason's, you know, these, this young core, they want to see how they play in high pressure, high stakes situations. It's, it's again, great experience for them and a great way to be able to evaluate them.

[Brian Windhorst]

Of course, you could never, no matter what, you could never assume anything in the NBA because, you know, you would have assumed strength of schedule wise, that the Nuggets would have a layup on Saturday and that they would still be ahead of the Rockets. They lose at home to the, to the Wizards.

[Bobby Marks]

Hey, the Wizards, they've earned, they've earned their W against the Nuggets this year. Have swept the Nuggets.

[Tim Bontemps]

They started playing better lately. Oh, yeah.

[Bobby Marks]

Great timing.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, really nice, really nice game for Alex Sar on Saturday night too. Had 24 in the first half. 34, 6 and 5. Like, you know, he's. Yeah, obviously everybody remembers the game in summer league when he missed all the shots right off the bat, but he, you know, he's starting to have some moments for them and they're playing a little better and winning some games and you know, making it interesting with Utah for who's going to have the worst record in the league.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, Jordan. Jordan. Pool hit a 35 footer to win the game. Was that the buzzer or was it right before the buzzer?

[Tim Bontemps]

I saw the buzzer.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. Okay.

[Bobby Marks]

Yeah, it might be 2.1.

[Tim Bontemps]

Sorry, 2.1.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. I thought there might have been a tick left. The wizards have won six out of their last 10 games and I have not watched a single lick of it other than I watched a little bit.

[Bobby Marks]

Of the Nuggets just because I'm like, are you kidding me there? It's like I watched most of the fourth quarter because I'm like, it's.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm not allowed to watch games in Denver. I'm not sure you've heard that. Didn't know that unless I'm in la. When I'm in la. Like a couple days ago I was watching Thunder Nuggets and it was like, oh my God, this is a revelation. I didn't know these two teams. I didn't know these two teams were in the league. It's amazing.

[Bobby Marks]

Felt like you were getting away with something.

[Brian Windhorst]

Like, I know I was looking over.

[Bobby Marks]

My shoulder when those pay per channels came in. A little bit clearer than usual back.

[Brian Windhorst]

Exactly. You've got it all figured out as usual. I will say that. You know, so they're six and four in their last 10. And I think the Wizards, obviously, they were tanking this year. I do not think that they planned on losing whatever it was. I think they've had two separate 15 game losing streaks or something and they, and they for a while had the worst net rating for, for a whole season. They were worst on record. They were threatening with that for a while. And so I think they said, you know, it's losing is one thing. Let's not threaten history. And so at the trade deadline, getting Marcus Smart and Chris Middleton and then holding them, yeah, I think they kind of wanted to turn the corner just a little bit.

[Tim Bontemps]

Chris Middleton being in that room with a bunch of young guys is going to help them immeasurably. You know, however, whether he's there for three months or whether he's there for summer all next season, having a guy like that around will help them a lot.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's kind of like what you quoted Matt Ishbia the other day in your story. Man, the rebuild process is hard. And it's one thing to say you're going to do the rebuild, but when you are getting kicked in the teeth 15 straight games, it can be a little bit hard on the stomach and.

[Bobby Marks]

I think more on the stomach. But you have to worry about like developing losing habits and like an acceptance of losing in your young guys like you.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right.

[Bobby Marks]

Honestly, the Rockets have been able to turn it around, but that was a major threat for the first, you know, for a three year span in Houston. And like Eme had to get there and basically like, I'm not gonna say beat the young, the losing habits out of guys, but you know, metaphorically at least. Yeah, and listen, nobody like it's rebuilding is a miserable process. It's so miserable that Daryl Morey got ahead of things and you know, bolted Houston and landed in Philly where he was going to have a chance to win big.

[Brian Windhorst]

I thought he was spending more time with his family.

[Bobby Marks]

Oh, he took that gap week and then he got to, he got to Philly where he's going to have a chance to compete for championships and Sixers at, at Rockets on Monday night.

[Brian Windhorst]

Top Sixers. It's a, it's a great, it's a great clean. And listen for you.

[Bobby Marks]

Tough win for the top Sixers. The old Mavericks is like, look, there's the only eight we got. We can't. What, what do you want us to do? And oh, Quentin Grimes revenge game was a tough win for the Sixers.

[Tim Bontemps]

Quinn Grimes. Quentin Grimes has been balling.

[Bobby Marks]

Quentin Grimes has been balling. And Caleb Martin has not played much. And Caleb Martin makes a pretty significant chunk of more salary, especially once that 15% trade kicker got put in there than Quentin Grimes does, which has put the Mavericks $51,000 from the first apron, which is the.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, let's talk about that. So today. So, you know, speaking of getting kicked in the teeth, the Mavericks lost for the ninth time in 10 games.

[Bobby Marks]

It's a whole bunch.

[Brian Windhorst]

And yeah, they did squeeze out a win over the spurs this last week, which frankly was unexpected.

[Bobby Marks]

Got a split against the Spurs.

[Tim Bontemps]

They remain ahead of the Suns.

[Bobby Marks]

Hey, they, they prove. They prove Michael Thompson wrong. Clay's dad, when he was on LA radio said they're going to win 10 in a row or lose 10 in a row. I can tell you, Clay, Clay didn't appreciate his dad making that sort of a prediction.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, for a fact, he wasn't exactly out of line. Maybe pissed off his son. All right, McMahon, can you. So before we detail. The Mavericks are, are on the. Have been close to on the verge of needing to forfeit in the last week. Can you.

[Bobby Marks]

They're. They're a player away from having a forfeit.

[Brian Windhorst]

Can you explain why you gotta have.

[Bobby Marks]

Eight to play, right? And if you don't have eight available players, then by league rule, you're not able.

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean, they wouldn't actually forfeit, right? They, they would just put, they would just dress a player who wasn't going to be.

[Bobby Marks]

I would assume so. I would assume so.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't.

[Brian Windhorst]

So just to be clear.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, hold on. The reason this has never happened, this like this, the reason this is a thing is because of the new rules that have been put in with these hard aprons in the salary cap. So as McMahon said, everybody focused on the big trade that the Mavs made, but they made this other trade where they traded Quentin Grimes out and took Caleb Martin in. There was a $7 million difference in their salary, especially with Caleb Martin, who obviously didn't get nearly as much as he wanted in his contract last summer. Kept his 15% trade kicker got some extra money in the deal. Because of that trade, Dallas is $50,000 below the first salary cap, which they.

[Brian Windhorst]

Are hard capped at.

[Tim Bontemps]

Which they're hard capped at. So typically in the past, if a team like Dallas had a ton of injuries or guys got sick or whatever, you would get a hardship waiver like the, like the Sixers just did the other day.

[Brian Windhorst]

We saw this happen during COVID There'd be eight guys in health and safety protocols and they would sign guys off the street and play them two games.

[Tim Bontemps]

The Sixers literally signed O'Shea Brissette on Friday afternoon and played him both Friday against Indiana and Sunday against Dallas. That they, they had a bunch of injuries that said to the league, hey, look, all these guys are hurt. The league said, okay, go ahead and sign a guy.

[Brian Windhorst]

I think I saw that the Sixers for the game on Saturday or Friday or Saturday had 95% of their salary inactive or not inactive, but unable to play. Unable to play. All time record. Yeah, as long as records of such.

[Tim Bontemps]

Have been kept, yeah, it was way over 150 million. So because the Mavs only have $50,000 below the first apron to spend, they don't have the money to sign a player.

[Bobby Marks]

They can't sign a hardship.

[Brian Windhorst]

Even if the NBA said, okay, you can have a ninth because you have 15 players plus three, two ways, you have 18 guys. Also. How many?

[Bobby Marks]

Well, and right now they have, they, they have an open roster spot that they can't fill with even attendee. Remember Moses Brown? They signed, they could. They basically had one enough to have one full 10 day contract. They signed Moses Brown his last two games. He averaged 18 points and 10 rebounds and they had to let him go despite the fact that every other big man on the roster at the time was hurt.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right. Dallas stayed at 14 players because they wanted to get Caleb Martin in this trade. They got him. And because they got him, they didn't have the ability to add a 15th player at the time. So yes, Dallas, if Dallas had the money available, they could, they already have enough guys injured where they could sign a hardship guy. Now the problem is you can't just have an injured player sit there and say he can play. So if Dallas has another injury or if they run out of days for Their two way players which they're running out of and they can cycle through them a little bit, but they only can do that to such a degree. They're still sitting here with all these guys out in a couple weeks we could legitimately be looking at a situation where they'll have to forfeit a game, which would be an incredible thing.

[Brian Windhorst]

Here's the problem. They have three two way guys and other. You're as you're a two way player. You're only allowed, oh yes, you're only allowed to play 50 games.

[Bobby Marks]

Be active for 50, be active for 50.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. On the roster for 50.

[Bobby Marks]

And so I think Kessler Edwards is down to two more. I mean it's, yeah, it's tight and Brandon Williams doesn't have a lot more than that.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. So they're in. It's. He doesn't have enough to be on the active roster the rest of the season. That's the key. So they have two guys who within the next couple of weeks in theory could run out of two way spots.

[Bobby Marks]

Will run out.

[Tim Bontemps]

Will run out. Not good.

[Bobby Marks]

And a two way to replace them. It's too.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. So that's the thing. So like, so like I, what they, I, from what I understand, they have asked the league for relief and the league to this point has not offered them relief. And so what they would have to do is they would have, here's the.

[Tim Bontemps]

Thing, the league can't offer him relief because this is why you have hard salary cap limits. If you say, oh well, hey, you had all these injuries so we're going to let you get away with skipping past this apron to sign players. All the other teams are going to understandably go, hey, wait a second, why are they getting any breaks? Everybody's got to follow the rules. That's, that's why you leave yourself cushioned with these kind of deals and don't put yourself $50,000 below the apron. And you know, obviously it's a crazy set of circumstances that get you here, but it's still a set of circumstances.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. What they can do is they can, we can wave Kessler Edwards and Brandon Williams. I'm sorry, you had, you were going to have a chance to have those all these minutes, but you're going to be waved and they could sign new two way players.

[Bobby Marks]

It's too late to sign two way guys.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, is that right?

[Bobby Marks]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

Huh. That was to subscribe. That was suggested to me as the way to do it because I believe.

[Bobby Marks]

I need to double check with Bobby.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, well look but even if they regardless, even if they do do that, they still don't have any wiggle room with injuries.

[Tim Bontemps]

You know, there's a limit to the, they can do a little bit of horse trading with the two way days but there's only a limit to they can do with that and it can't get them all the way to the end of the regular season.

[Brian Windhorst]

Beyond going into all the weeds on this. I know too late. The Mavericks are, you know, have put themselves in such a pickle because they've had a set of circumstances that is never been before seen. However, some lack of foresight has compounded the issue and put them into this situation.

[Bobby Marks]

And again the Quentin like forget the fact Quentin Grimes is averaging 19 and change efficiently for the Sixers now it's like a a tank situation. But Quinn Grimes is also playing well offensively for the Mavericks. That trade is what's gotten them right up with their backs against the wall and these financial handcuffs put on them. And they could have gotten out of that trade because Caleb Martin was more injured than they thought when they made the trade. They ended up getting a second round pick in return as extra compensation. By the way, he missed today because of a hip thing. That was what he missed all that time with and it was like a game time decision. But the Grimes deal in addition, just like the production is like. But they didn't want to pay Grimes what he wants on his next contract and so they dumped him right up against the wall here.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, and it did all. It all goes back to the irony of the initial trade that was made. Right. Which is, well, we're worried about Luca's durability. They trade for Anthony Davis, not the most durable guy. He gets hurt. Then they make this other trade. As you said at the time, it almost, you know, it got modified like the Laker trade could not get modified with the Hornets because it was after the deadline. The Sixers and Mavs did the trade before the trade deadline so they could go back and say hey, we want an extra draft pick and they got one. But they still did the deal and he's barely played since and obviously AD has played 20 minutes and 31 minutes. Sorry.

[Bobby Marks]

Now I my understanding is AD is ramping up and nearing his return. He's going to play like 4 on 4 or 5 on 5 this week and so he like he could be back as soon as the last week of March and you know, which is.

[Tim Bontemps]

They'Re going to need them.

[Bobby Marks]

Well, here's the thing. There are people who've Kind of said ad, like, why, like, why take the risk? He wants to play. He wants to play. Derek Livey the second is also ramping up. I don't think he's quite as close. You know, there's a similar conversation we had there, but he wants to play. Now, obviously, Kyrie's out for the season. Daniel Gafford, they haven't ruled him out for the season, but he's not expected to be able to return. Dante X. And breaks his hand in the first half against Houston the other night. They announced the next day that he will be reevaluated in four weeks. Hey, that means there's a slim possibility that he could come back for the final game of the regular season.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, or the plan. I mean, yeah, you know, they've lost, they've, they've lost all these games, but they remain a game and a half. Well, they're a game in the lost column. That's all I care about. They're a game ahead of the Suns.

[Bobby Marks]

And the Suns can't win more than the occasional game. As, as, as miserable as it's been for the Mavericks, the Suns have barely made up any ground. And you know, Bradley Beal has a little, you know, he missed the second half of the hamstring day. He's kind of been in and out. But like their stars have been healthy. The vast majority of that roster has been healthy. And the Suns can't make up any ground. On a maverick scene, the Mavericks. It's like my boys play in like, you know, in a summer rec team. And it's one of those things where you're calling around seeing if you have enough to play every single week because everybody's on vacation, right? Yeah, that's what the Mavericks feel like right now.

[Brian Windhorst]

By the way, can I just say, something happened in my household this weekend.

[Bobby Marks]

Oh, go for it. They're gonna get you in trouble.

[Brian Windhorst]

Probably could. This could launch an investigation. My son played on two teams this winter. My seven year old son. One team never lost. One team never won. All right, I'm not going to go into the details about that, but he's 500 about. So there was this weekend to finish. The team that never won was going into a weekend series. Okay, A weekend tournament. The regular season was over and they have a little weekend tournament where they play games on Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And look, spring break three days in.

[Tim Bontemps]

A row at seven.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's correct.

[Bobby Marks]

Load management at seven.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, there's no load budget on this team because they were down to like six and maybe even Five guys. Because spring break has hit for some of these schools and some of these kids have gone. Well, my wife was tired of watching this team lose. So guys, my wife took matters into her own hand and brought in three ringers, okay?

[Bobby Marks]

Little recruiting going on.

[Brian Windhorst]

She, this is amazing. She asked permission from the team. Hey, I don't want my, you know, I'm, you know, I don't want my son to play in three straight games with no rest. So can I bring in some players? And they said yes. And so she went and got three of the best players from the team that was undefeated.

[Bobby Marks]

Well, there you go.

[Brian Windhorst]

Hey, listen, it wasn't like they were 12. They were just other better coached.

[Tim Bontemps]

They were just better players.

[Brian Windhorst]

Better players. And what's the issue earlier today? Well, I don't know. I mean, I don't know the league rules. Earlier today there was, there was photos of the team holding their, their medals for winning the tournament because they went 30 after not winning for months. They went 3 0. And our new teammates who had been with the team for 72 hours were holding their medals. And I had nothing to do with it. My wife was a GM and she just stood back and smiled.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, get her one of these college GM jobs. Everybody's going.

[Bobby Marks]

I was gonna say it sounds to me like she, you know, ought to be getting at least as many executive your votes. Is Nico Harrison.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I face potential sanctions because I've told this and now there could be an investigation. The medals could be stripped.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, by the way, so just, just to remind people about the Suns. So they play the Raptors on Monday, one of the hard tankers. Then they play the Bulls on Wednesday, both at home. Two team, two games. They they really ought to win. Even amid their misery.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Bulls can't even tank correctly. They just had a four game win streak.

[Tim Bontemps]

This is correct. This is the remainder of the sun schedule. Home for Cleveland, Milwaukee and Boston on the road for Minnesota. Home for Houston at Milwaukee, Boston, New York, Home for Golden State, Oklahoma City, San Antonio and then finishing at Sacramento.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, there's not a lot of W's, buddy.

[Tim Bontemps]

Schedule.

[Bobby Marks]

I mean, they're going to send a lottery pick to the Houston Rockets.

[Tim Bontemps]

Certainly seems that way.

[Bobby Marks]

You know, I mean, I tell you and, and blame Brooklyn for that. The, the trade the Rockets made with Brooklyn last summer has not aged well for the Nets.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, that's too, that's way too strong to say, brother.

[Bobby Marks]

It's way too strong. Are you serious?

[Tim Bontemps]

If the.

[Bobby Marks]

Okay, they have three of the Suns. This year's A swap. Oh, I see why you say it. Because you got Nets executive looking over. Hey, we're talking about how bad that trade was last year.

[Tim Bontemps]

That is not. That is not correct on any level. I was. I would have. I'd have Aaron come over here and say something if he wanted to.

[Bobby Marks]

No, dude, they got back 25 and 26 control and they gave them Phoenix 25, 27, 29, the Mavs 29, which. The value of that has gone up massively.

[Tim Bontemps]

Fr. Sure.

[Bobby Marks]

And the Rockets held on to the Nets 27 swap.

[Tim Bontemps]

And if the Nets win the lottery and get Cooper flag, it's worth all those picks and. And then some. So that's why you can't sit here right now and say one way or the other what it means about anything the Nets got. The Nets had the ability to get to the bottom of this year's draft, which is loaded. And next year's draft, which is loaded. Now maybe they'll end up bad job of that too. Well, look, right now they're in fifth place in the lottery standings. They could easily jump up and look, they could wind up with the 6 pick in both drafts. Maybe Phoenix ends up sending a top four pick to Houston. That would obviously be a wild outcome. But the Nets made the deal and those picks were much more viable to them to have control of their draft the next two years. So.

[Bobby Marks]

I understand. At least get control of all three years.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I'm just saying you, you can't write the book on the trade in any form until we see beginning with what happens in May. Because if the Nets win the lottery. Yes.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right.

[Bobby Marks]

With another trade.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh my gosh, it's the other trade.

[Tim Bontemps]

The book can already be written on the other tray beyond the book that you have written. That will come out in eight days. Go buy your pre order copy.

[Brian Windhorst]

This is going to be so exciting. We're going to. We wait. You guys think there's been promotion? Just, you know, we're just gonna. We're gonna have McMahon just on here reading.

[Tim Bontemps]

McMahon is a shameless promoter in a normal time, let alone when it's putting money in his pocket. It's going to be a remarkable. It's going to be a remarkable thing to watch the book sale.

[Brian Windhorst]

Just real quick about the Nets. Did Cam Thomas re aggravate his hamstring injury or did he just.

[Tim Bontemps]

He hurt. He hurt his. He got. You did a. He took a step back three at the end of one of their last couple games and re aggravated the same injury.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay. Because you know, like anytime he plays. He's liable to shoot them into victory. And so he's also liable to shoot them into defeat, but he's liable to shoot them into victory. And he's done. Now.

[Tim Bontemps]

He's had. He's had three or four of these recurrences in his hamster injury this year or two.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I will just say this. The Nets have gotten their act together because they've lost, let's see, four.

[Bobby Marks]

What are you doing? Math.

[Brian Windhorst]

They've. They've lost 10 of their last 11.

[Bobby Marks]

Yeah. And I'm telling you, man, that. That Sixers, the top Sixers, getting that win in Dallas today was good for Brooklyn. Bad, bad, bad for the Sixers.

[Brian Windhorst]

Great. They're obviously playing the Hawks tonight, which Bon Temps is about to go to this game. If I think it's. Maybe it's already started. I don't even know.

[Tim Bontemps]

It is. It has started.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay.

[Tim Bontemps]

They're down a couple at halftime.

[Brian Windhorst]

Their last five losses have all been by five points or less or maybe six points or less.

[Tim Bontemps]

So they had a crazy comeback Saturday night against Boston. Nearly came back and won the game against the Celtics.

[Brian Windhorst]

They've got. The message has. You know, I don't know what the message. You know, players don't tank, but maneuvers are made to lessen your chances.

[Tim Bontemps]

Jordy Fernandez has done a hell of a job and this team has played super hard, have been competitive every night. Now, you could argue to McMahon's point, they've been a little too competitive, maybe, but he's done a great job. And again, we'll see what happens in May. Because if these guys wind up with the number one pick in the draft, then that trade was 100% worth it. Sure.

[Bobby Marks]

And as we speak, there's a 10.5% chance of that happening. More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[Brian Windhorst]

I was never really a runner. The way I see running is a gift. Especially when you have stage four cancer. I'm Ann. I'm running the Boston Marathon. Presented by bank of America. I run for Dana Farber Cancer Institute to give people like me a chance to thrive in life, even with cancer. Join bank of America in helping Anne's cause. Give if you can@b of a.comSupportAnn what would you like the power to do? References to charitable organizations is not endorsement by bank of America Corporation. Copyright 2025 My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big roaz man.

[Tim Bontemps]

Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day.

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[Brian Windhorst]

What up everybody?

[Tim Bontemps]

It's your boy big Snoop D O.

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[Tim Bontemps]

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[Bobby Marks]

Up out of here see how you.

[Brian Windhorst]

Can save on wireless and streaming versus the other big guys.

[Tim Bontemps]

@T mobile.com/apple intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later.

[Brian Windhorst]

We mentioned that the Cleveland is going to come to Phoenix soon. You're going to see Cleveland in a couple of days. McMahon I should mention their 16 game win streak came to an end today. A very big win for the Magic. Who are they needed that one. They in need of it. And look, the Cavs have wiggled out of the noose a number of times during that 16 game win streak, especially at home against some teams they were heavily favored against. The Magic made a bunch of plays down the stretch of this game. Kentavious Caldwell Pope hit a clutch three, Paolo Banchero hit basically a clutch jumper that really provided them separation and they got some stops. You know there was one play where DeAndre Hunter had a good look from the corner that would have tied the game and Bancaro came sprinting out at him. I mean he was busting his backside to get out there or Hunter just missed it. The Cavs had actually you know the Magic are one of the worst scoring teams in the league, one of the worst shooting teams in the league. The they made three more threes in the Cavs who were the number one.

[Tim Bontemps]

Three point and the crazy thing is Cleveland actually had a bad shooting game for a change. 10 for 40 from three. Yeah it was like they're 17 for 40 every game.

[Bobby Marks]

Donovan had a possession late. Was it were those had two threes on a possession. I think it was to tie but missed them both. Donovan had a really rough one 9283 of 14 from 3.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah he had he had missed last couple games with a groin injury. Evan Mobley missed it. But look forget about all that the magic executed down the stretch of the game. They held the high powered CAVS to like 103 points. Excellent win for them. And now Cleveland goes on a west coast trip. So whatever it's worth, maybe might be.

[Bobby Marks]

A first round preview to the seeds hold as they are now for sure.

[Brian Windhorst]

And that was a team that, you know, they went seven games with last year. Obviously the two teams are different. I will say Cavs are going on this west coast trip. It's not the most demanding west coast trip ever, but it's still a west coast trip. And they are now, I think.

[Tim Bontemps]

Why are, why are we breaking down the Cav schedule? Because eight game lead.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, maybe you should just wait till the end of the paragraph. They are. They are whatever spice.

[Bobby Marks]

Little spice.

[Brian Windhorst]

After the loss, they have a. They have a one single game lead. Oh, that's right. There's more than just the Eastern Conference there. Bontems.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh, there it is.

[Brian Windhorst]

One game lead on.

[Tim Bontemps]

Already looking ahead to the NBA Finals, folks.

[Brian Windhorst]

Write it in.

[Tim Bontemps]

Predicting Cavs in the NBA Finals.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, wow.

[Bobby Marks]

This is an interruption clinic.

[Brian Windhorst]

In the event that Oklahoma City plays Cleveland in the final. What happens on this west coast trip could be a difference. The Cavs, if they take a couple more losses, could slip behind. They. They've been ahead of the Thunder for weeks, but the Thunder never lose either.

[Bobby Marks]

So Pontips, would you like to apologize to Wendy? That was a great point that really.

[Tim Bontemps]

Called a good setup.

[Bobby Marks]

There's a lot of effort. It wasn't. There was a lot of effort that went into making that point unnecessarily. So because he was kind of just cruising along and then you like, he.

[Tim Bontemps]

Had to like good setup.

[Bobby Marks]

He had a, you know, a lot of fouls were committed on that drive to the basket. That's all I'm gonna say.

[Brian Windhorst]

Do I get an and one?

[Bobby Marks]

I mean, Lord, and one and a flagrant two on Bon Temps. He's house.

[Tim Bontemps]

Sure, sure.

[Bobby Marks]

Bon Temps is like Nick Claxton. If there were flagrant points, he'd be suspended by March.

[Tim Bontemps]

There's a person who's flakered on this pod. It ain't me, I think it's safe to say.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, before we go Bontemps, you were moved today, I think. What Broadway show did you see, by the way?

[Tim Bontemps]

I went to see Othello with Jake Gyllenhaal and Denzel Washington, which was, excuse me, awfully good.

[Brian Windhorst]

McMahon. He was.

[Bobby Marks]

No, I thought he was. I enjoyed like, he was a nice little lefty big man from Georgetown Back in the day.

[Brian Windhorst]

Go on. Ostello. Harrington. Yes.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's what we're going to.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, it took me a second.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right. Anyway, you were moved earlier today when you watched the Memphis Grizzlies retire Tony Allen's number. And I will say this, he had a. He had an amazing quote talking about the Grit and Grind Grizzlies where he says, we weren't no glitz and glamoury team. You come in here, we might slap the bleep out of you.

[Bobby Marks]

No, it was definitely most profanity ever in a Jersey retirement ceremony. I mean, listen, the Grindfather is who he is, and that's why he will always be beloved in Memphis. And, you know, like Bon Temps, you. You pointed out, like, the cruise this. They didn't get to Finals. They obviously didn't win a championship, but they were a very good team for a long time. That epitomized kind of the. The culture of the city they're in. And, you know, I think. I think you could almost even make the argument that the Grit and Grind Grizzlies are more beloved in Memphis than the Toronto Raptors title team is in Toronto.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I didn't make any point because I haven't said anything, but I would.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm not to stop you there. I want to. Let's talk about it. But I know a team that does not advance to the Finals, even does not.

[Bobby Marks]

Well, because the reason I say that is because the Raptors, there were obviously guys there who were there for a while, but a mercenary led them to that championship.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, we're gonna set that aside and make room for Bon Temps here. I'll be back with you on that one.

[Tim Bontemps]

A lot of Canadians are going to get mad at me when they. They listen to that comment. No, I just. I just. I've long found this, Matt, this Memphis team, really fascinating because in this era we live in, where you either are a champion or a failure in the eyes of many people. I feel like that Grizzlies team is the only one that's sort of properly celebrated for being an iconic, awesome team that had a great run together and, you know, didn't made the conference finals once, but didn't have some kind of, you know, championship equity or making it to the Finals. And I would. I wish that there was more of that around the NBA, because I. I just think there's an ability. I think we should be sell a little more celebratory at times of some of these teams that are good but aren't quite Good enough. And I just think it's cool how that Grizzlies team has resonated the way it has there and they did an awesome job with the Z Bo retirement and the Marcus all retirement and Mike Conley will inevitably get the same treatment. And like that team was just a super fun, different team, played a different style. You know, Tony Allen, you know, embodied that more than anybody. And it's. I just wish there was a little more of that around the league where it was like less of if you, you know, if you don't get to the finals or you don't win with a team, it's a epic failure and you know, a pox in everybody's house.

[Bobby Marks]

Well, I think a lot of it is about continuity. And that core four was together for years and years and years. You know, at the teams that, that I could think of that were like, are like beloved despite not getting over the hump. Like the, the, the Kent Payton Sonics.

[Brian Windhorst]

How about the We Believe Warriors?

[Bobby Marks]

The We Believe Warriors. That was like, that was a very specific team.

[Brian Windhorst]

I know, but still, I mean you say We Believe in, in Golden State. I mean people know who you're talking about when you say buying too much many drinks and that is more of.

[Tim Bontemps]

A one playoff series.

[Brian Windhorst]

But this is true.

[Bobby Marks]

This was like a whole era. So. But like the, the Kent Payton Sonics went to a couple Finals. You know, the, the Malone Stockton Jazz went to a couple of finals, you know, hard. The Harden era Rockets. There was a lot of change around him, but Harden was obviously the middle of it and you know, obviously it was kind of a messy ending with Art. Not kind of like the guy, you know, was going to strip clubs and, you know, handing out honey buns to little baby instead of going to training camp. For the Rockets it was a very messy ending. But Harden's still beloved in Houston. That might be as close as I can kind of.

[Tim Bontemps]

But this is, but that's what I'm saying though. I'm not talking about in Houston. Right. Like most people, I would say almost universally people clown on that Houston team and I don't think they should probably.

[Bobby Marks]

Yeah, there's more shade thrown than there should. And honestly, especially on Harden.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes.

[Bobby Marks]

Because it's like a, it's like a, A failure for.

[Brian Windhorst]

They were going up, they were going up against an all time.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right. That's what I mean.

[Bobby Marks]

That.

[Tim Bontemps]

That team had an awesome run, got to multiple conference finals, pushed Golden State to the brink. Like Harden was one of the two or three best players in the league. For a several year stretch, right. Was first or second an MVP four or five times. Like, that's an awesome, iconic run for that team. They're. Nobody talks about them like they talk about this Memphis team, the Lob City Clippers, another example. That team had been a moribund disaster for decades. And then they have DeAndre and Blake and Chris and Redick and those guys. And yes, they lost in the second round, but like that was a super fun run for a few years and like nobody talks about them. Like everybody again, just like pokes fun at them for. You know, everybody remembers the Chris Paul meltdown against OKC or these other games.

[Bobby Marks]

That they lost and they remember the, the Donald Sterling just disaster.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right. Obviously that's a separate part of it, but I, I just mean I, I just find it really interesting that this Grizzlies team that made the conference finals once is universally everywhere liked and respected and I just wish there was more of that.

[Bobby Marks]

It's about being like the tough, gritty, nasty, but lovable underdogs, you know, and it's, it's almost like the fact that they were a small market with and they had guys who were all stars, but they didn't have guys who were superstars. And you know, Zebo is an all star, I think a couple times, you know, Gasol, however many times. Conley actually never was in, in Memphis. No, Tony. And Tony Allen was. Is funny. Like the face of it was a guy who. Did he ever average double figures in Memphis? If he did, it wasn't often.

[Tim Bontemps]

It was barely. Yeah, yeah.

[Bobby Marks]

You know, the face of it was a guy who just had just nastiness and toughness, but also just this like. I mean, if you ever have a conversation with Tony Allen, like, you're going to be smiling, you're going to be loud.

[Tim Bontemps]

I was just gonna say I was just thinking about character. Yeah, I just started smiling thinking about having a conversation with Tony, let alone having one.

[Brian Windhorst]

His Persona was not the way it was enjoyable. It is enjoyable. To talk to him is against his Persona on the court, which is a complete nasty, complete nastiness.

[Bobby Marks]

Yeah. And you know the story of how grit and grind was coined, right?

[Brian Windhorst]

I don't remember it.

[Tim Bontemps]

You should tell the story. It's a good story.

[Bobby Marks]

So. And I don't remember the player who sat out and. But I probably leave his name out of. Anyway, so they're going to play Oklahoma City, and this was TA's first year in Memphis and the player who's supposed to be matched up with kd not too Long before the game was like, oh, yeah, you know, I'm banged up, can't go tonight. You know, he gotta. He had a little Katis. And so Tony Allen, who's like, he's, he's not just a hell of a defender because of natural ability and all that. Like, part of it is the man prepares and he digs in, in his preparation. He's told not too long before the game that he's matched up with kd and he wasn't happy about it. Not that it wasn't happy, not that he didn't want the challenge, but it's like, I got to be prepared. Anyways, the Tony Allen ends up having a crazy game, like, scores 20 some odd points, fills up the box score, does a good job on kd. The Grizzlies win the game, and then Rob Fisher, who comes from the Craig Sager school of sartorial splendidness.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes, his, his shoe collection is legendary.

[Bobby Marks]

Yes. Well, another, another great character down there in Memphis, you know, Rob Fisher is, is interviewing Tony Allen for the, you know, the post game walk off. And that's when Tony Allen growled, you know, all heart, grit, grind. And that, that written grind was born that night. So it wasn't like a, it became a marketing thing. Right. It became something that the franchise latched onto.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, that's. I will say this. It was, it was organic for years, despite not being a great market relative to its size and wealth. It's a, it's a. They have great fans, but it's, you know, it's not gonna confuse itself with the Bay Area. Okay. Memphis has had tremendous operations with their organization. They absolutely make the most of their market. They've won numerous awards for, for, for, you know, front office operations. The way that they married that, the, the Persona of that team to that marketing was one of the best I've ever seen in my 20 plus years. The only other thing I can compare it to in Detroit, when the Pistons had their big run in the 2000s, they had this, you know, we're going to work type thing. And it was perfect for that team with Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton and Tayshawn Prince. They were very defensive, latent team. They used to have games where they would give away, you know, vests, you know, like the vests and hard hats. And they would have a steam whistle that would go off at the start of the game. And their intro, the. Ben Wallace would go, it's time to go to work. And he would break the other team with a Sledgehammer on the scoreboard. Now, let's point out that Auburn Hills is hardly a blue collar area. And there was not exactly like it was in downtown Detroit with a bunch of people who were coming out of the factory. But nonetheless, that was perfect for that, that team in that city. It's perfect for the way the grit and grind team, the grindhouse and all that stuff and stuff they did during the game. I'll say something else. The greatest compliment I can give to Tony Allen involved Kevin Durant. And that was. I've talked about this series lots. One of the greatest series I've ever covered, covered 100 playoff series as one of my most memorable seven game series between the Grizzlies and the Thunder. Very intense. A lot of stuff happened in it. But I remember game six. It was in, it was in Oklahoma, it was in Memphis. Tony Allen for five and a half games had hounded Kevin Durant and Durant had some bad games in that stretch.

[Bobby Marks]

Well, that was the, the famous headline in the Oklahoma Mr.

[Brian Windhorst]

Unreliable. But I think that had to do with more free throw shooting. But whatever. So it's game six, and for 10, 12 days at that point, Tony Allen has been hounding Kevin Durant. Now, Kevin Durant is 6 inches or so taller than Tony Allen. Maybe more. I don't know.

[Tim Bontemps]

I was going to say. I bet it's more.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, so I remember this play where Durant comes from the baseline and comes up to the foul line and runs through two screens. They're trying like crazy to get Coney Allen off of Kevin Durant. Durant runs around, catches the ball at the foul line completely wide open. There is nobody within five feet in any direction because Tony Allen's got caught up on the screens. The play works perfectly. As soon as Durant catches the ball, the first thing that he does is cover up and turn. Because he was so used to Tony Allen being on top of him at all times that he was convinced that Tony Allen was still there. And when you are a great defender that you can make Kevin Durant, who was, who was at the absolute peak of his powers. This is not a commentary on Durant, it's a commentary on Tony Allen. Yeah, but you can, and you know, he could rise up over Allen. But when, when you can defend, when you're such a great defender and so physical and so great that you can defend when you're not even there because of your reputation and what you've done over the course of six games, I couldn't think of a better compliment. And I'll never forget that play. And I remember talking about that play to Patrick Beverley one time because I've always thought about it. It's like one of the quintessential things about a playoff series when, you know, two teams. And I swear to God, when I was telling Beverly this story, he got misty eyed because that's the kind of stuff that Beverly, you know, like dreams of doing.

[Bobby Marks]

Oh, yeah, Great player field goes. By the way, I'm looking up Tony Allen stats. He never averaged double figures in Memphis. The most he ever averaged was 9.8 points per game. But like when during the heyday of the original Grit and Grind Grizzlies, literally the first thing, one of the first things you would see when you arrived at the Memphis airport was a huge ad with Tony Allen in the middle of it. He was like the unofficial mayor of Memphis. That's how beloved he is in Memphis.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. And, and to speak of Beverly, you know, Russell Westbrook obviously had his run into Beverly and obviously, like Katie was guarded by Tony Allen. And in this video that they did for Tony Allen's jersey retirement, they talked to Katie, they talked to all these guys. And Westbrook, who's not exactly the most effusive and praise of people, was quoted several times in the video, including at the end where he said there's not a lot of real ones in the NBA, but Tony Allen is absolutely one of them.

[Brian Windhorst]

Which, well, from Westbrook is.

[Tim Bontemps]

From Westbrook is about as high praise as you're going to get.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right? I will cats off to the Grindfather. You deserved it. And I, I always did enjoy covering that version of the Memphis team, so. All right, thank you to Bontemps, thank you to McMahon, thank you to Jackson, who's here, and thank you for watching and listening to the Hoop Collective. We will talk to you later this week.

[Bobby Marks]

Adios, amigos.

[Brian Windhorst]

Foreign.

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