Wemby & Spurs Dominate The Thunder + Knicks On The Brink Of Historic Finals Run & All-NBA Selections

Summary

Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Wemby & Spurs Dominate The Thunder + Knicks On The Brink Of Historic Finals Run & All-NBA Selections
Release Date: May 25, 2026
Panel: Brian Windhorst (host), Tim Bontemps, Tim MacMahon

Episode Overview

This episode of The Hoop Collective features in-depth analysis of two pivotal NBA playoff series: the San Antonio Spurs’ dominant performance against the Oklahoma City Thunder to even the Western Conference Finals at 2-2 and the New York Knicks’ commanding 3-0 lead over the Cleveland Cavaliers in the Eastern Conference Finals. The panel dissects tactical adjustments, injury impacts, standout individual performances (notably Victor Wembanyama and Stefan Castle for the Spurs), and the Knicks’ historic run. The episode wraps with a discussion of the All-NBA team selections and their broader implications.

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Spurs vs. Thunder: Game 4 Western Conference Finals

Main Discussion: 00:44–19:48

Key Points & Insights

• San Antonio’s Defensive Dominance

  • The Spurs evened the series with a 20-point win, overwhelming a depleted Thunder offense.
  • Notably, both teams shot poorly, but San Antonio’s defense set the tone (Spurs: 38% FG, 27% 3PT, led most of 2nd half by double digits).
  • Stefan Castle’s relentless on-ball defense against Shai Gilgeous-Alexander was a major storyline.
    • “Stefan Castle was absolutely elite all night as the primary guy on Shea.” (Brian, 05:44)

• Injury Issues for the Thunder

  • Thunder missing key creators: A.J. Mitchell (calf strain) and Jalen Williams (hamstring).
  • Offense stagnated; too much burden on Shai Gilgeous-Alexander against aggressive double teams and elite rim protection from Wembanyama.
    • “A lot of burden just planted on Shea’s shoulders … you got a seven and a half foot alien back there, waiting to reject your stuff.” (Brian, 02:31)

• Chet Holmgren Under the Microscope

  • Holmgren’s production nosedived against the Spurs compared to earlier playoff rounds.
  • “He can’t have an okay game. He’s got to be good … they can’t have him being borderline invisible, which is what he’s been through the first four.” (MacMahon, 07:19)
  • Lack of aggression noted: “He had as many buckets as he did turnovers. That ain’t going to cut it.” (Brian, 08:01)

• Victor Wembanyama’s Spectacular Two-Way Impact

  • Notable highlight: effortless half-court jump shot at the halftime buzzer.
    • "He shot it alarmingly easily. It looked very smooth, quite frankly." (Tim, 01:50)
  • Multiple jaw-dropping defensive and offensive plays; showed little sign of fatigue after playing 49 minutes in Game 3.
  • Wembanyama’s ability to dominate set the Spurs’ emotional tone.
    • “The guy hits a comfortable, good form pull-up half court shot…and then...catches a lob in traffic and gets an and-one dunk. Get you a big man who can do both.” (Brian, 12:15)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Thunder’s Offensive Woes:
  “The Spurs are an elite defensive team. The Thunder are a wounded offensive team.” (Brian, 02:13)
• Wembanyama’s Uniqueness:
  “He really is, he’s a hilarious player. Like you will laugh out loud multiple times a game watching this guy play.” (Brian, 17:19)
• Castle Setting the Tone:
  “The MVP of the game was Stefan Castle with the way he set the tone right from the jump.” (MacMahon, 10:18)
• Turning Point Sequence:
  The half-court shot by Wembanyama at the end of the first half—“that was just a soul crushing minute...a massive moment in the game.” (MacMahon, 18:15)
• Panel’s Outlook:
  “This was a huge moment for them. A young team down 2-1 against the champs...they were like, ‘yeah, we’re going to win the game today and we’re going to set the tone and we’re going to get in your face and make life miserable for you.’” (MacMahon, 18:52)

[Key Timestamps]

• 01:45 – Wemby’s half-court shot
• 02:13 – Thunder injuries
• 05:44 – Castle’s defensive MVP
• 08:01 – Chet’s struggles
• 11:35 – Wembanyama’s wild highlight reel
• 17:01 – Wemby’s deep shooting range
• 18:12 – Halftime swing; momentum shift

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Knicks vs. Cavaliers: Possible Historic Finals Run

Main Discussion: 22:34–49:17

Key Points & Insights

• Knicks’ Ten-Game Surge

  • Knicks are on a 10-game tear with a +225 point differential, the best over 10 games in NBA history, becoming far more than the sum of their parts.
    • “Unbelievably, the Knicks have ripped off one of the best 10 game stretches you’ll ever see ... and hardly any games have been close.” (MacMahon, 24:34)

• Cavs' Collapse & Fatigue; Knicks’ Desperation Advantage

  • Cavs look physically and emotionally spent — due to prior series going 7 and their inability to close winnable games.
  • Panel skewers Kenny Atkinson (Cavs’ coach) for blaming “shot luck” and referencing analytics as excuses.
    • "Saying 'we are down 0-3 but really we're up 2-1 is a patently insane thing to say.'" (MacMahon, 28:59)

• Knicks' All-In Roster Construction

  • Discussion of the Mikal Bridges mega-trade and the logic of locking in the current core for multiple years, especially against the backdrop of changing NBA salary cap rules (aprons).
  • “Their play was…we will outlast the Celtics and the Bucks…right now that strategy is coming home.” (Brian, 47:48)
  • “If the Knicks make the Finals…you can make a credible argument that those trades were worth it because you get to the Finals and you give yourself a chance. And that’s what you’re trying to do.” (MacMahon, 45:49)

• Future Outlook / Finals Chances

  • Knicks roster is set to remain strong for several years, poised as an Eastern Conference power.
  • If they close out Game 4, they’ll secure valuable rest and (hopefully) health advantages entering the Finals.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “If you lead by more points than minutes are remaining, you should win that game.” (Tim, 31:07)
• “City doesn’t feel like…there’s not like super amounts of signage…building didn’t have the juice…what I’m wondering is if everybody here truly believes in this run.” (Tim, 34:09)
• On Knicks fans reflecting on the Bridges trade:
  “Winning a championship means never having to say you’re sorry.” (Tim, 44:49)

[Key Timestamps]

• 24:34 – Knicks’ historic 10-game run
• 28:04 – Atkinson’s “analytics” excuse
• 30:14 – Cavs’ fatigue and why
• 37:54 – How quickly the Knicks/Cavs diverged in these playoffs
• 44:45 – Knicks’ all-in trade debate
• 47:48 – Knicks’ apron/roster construction strategy

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All-NBA Team Selections & Discussion

Main Discussion: 51:57–58:47

Recap of All-NBA Teams

• First Team:
  Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Nikola Jokic, Victor Wembanyama, Luka Doncic, Cade Cunningham

• Second Team:
  Jaylen Brown, Kawhi Leonard, Donovan Mitchell, Kevin Durant, Jalen Brunson

• Third Team:
  Tyrese Maxey, Jamal Murray, Jalen Johnson, Jalen Duren, Chet Holmgren

Panel’s Analysis

• Minimal controversy: Most picks mirrored MVP balloting and season-long narratives.
• Jaylen Brown missed first team by a relatively narrow margin; expressed discontent on Twitch, but panel feels media largely fair.
  • “Jaylen went on his twitch stream and said…the media doesn’t like him so he got robbed…I would say the media voted for Jalen for a conference finals MVP and finals MVP two years ago…likes Jalen fine.” (MacMahon, 54:10)
• Holmgren gets his spot despite recent playoff struggles—awards are based on regular season.
• Some debate about process vs. results for All-NBA (and All-Defense), particularly for fringe players.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Expected shot numbers win you zero games.” (MacMahon, 41:28)
• “If you’re a Knicks fan, you’re going to feel a certain way. I’m not going to talk you out of it…I just know that it wasn’t, none of these were really close.” (Tim, 57:38)
• On voting:
  “There are a lot of really good players. You have to cut off somewhere. It’s a very difficult decision.” (MacMahon, 57:18)

[Key Timestamps]

• 51:57 – All-NBA team rundown
• 54:10 – Jaylen Brown second team, controversy addressed
• 56:33 – Chet Holmgren’s playoff vs regular season rationale

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Tone, Style, and Memorable Moments

The episode maintained a conversational yet analytical tone, blending humor (especially about Wembanyama's "alien" skills) with grounded basketball insight. Panelists didn’t shy from calling out “coach-speak” or avoiding hard truths about underachieving teams.

Standout Moment

• The panel’s reaction to Wembanyama’s half-court shot and Castle’s defensive pressure elicited laughter and awe, showcasing genuine excitement for “unicorn” talent.
• Extended back-and-forth on whether the Knicks’ aggressive roster construction is vindicated by their run, with a nuanced assessment of “all-in” NBA team-building philosophy.

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Summary for Non-Listeners

This episode covers:

• How the Spurs’ tenacious defense and elite performances (from particularly Wembanyama and Castle) overwhelmed a shorthanded Thunder squad, shifting series momentum.
• The Knicks’ transformation into a playoff juggernaut—why their recent surge may be sustainable and how off-court roster moves set up current and future contention, with pointed critique of the Cavaliers’ fatigue and strategy.
• An All-NBA team discussion that clarifies why certain stars made (or just missed) the list and what the process signals about regular-season vs playoff performance.

Listeners come away with a nuanced view of two playoff series at dramatic turning points, a sharp analysis of modern roster-building strategy, and a context-rich review of All-NBA honors as the postseason heats up.

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Transcript

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[Tim Bontemps]

Hello, welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which you're doing a little past midnight on Monday morning slash Sunday night. Joining us from New York City, where the streets are about to explode with Nick's main mania is Tim Bontemps.

[Ben McMahon]

Nobody happier band McMahon than our buddy Brian Windhorst at the parties around MSG at the shutdown.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, you know, it is what it is. Joining us from San Antonio, Texas to Frost Bank Arena, Frostbank Center. Can't remember Frostbank Center. Frostbank center. Following San Antonio's 20 point victory in game four to even this series, the Western Conference finals, two two is Ben McMahon.

[Brian Windhorst]

Howdy partners. Yeah, those Knicks fans who tend to ball up trash and throw it at people, they're a lot more accurate than the Thunder shooters were tonight.

[Tim Bontemps]

All I'm going to say about this one is that The spurs shot 38% overall and 27% on threes and were ahead by 20 most of the second half.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, listen, man, Victor Wembanyama threw in that half court shot was like, here's

[Tim Bontemps]

the thing, he didn't throw it in. He shot it alarmingly easily. It looked very smooth, quite frankly.

[Ben McMahon]

It was a jump shot from half court. It wasn't quite.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's exactly what it was.

[Ben McMahon]

But when that went in after neither team had made a three the entire second quarter before that, I was like, yep, I think this one's going San Antonio's way. And second half certainly was nothing but spurs from there. Listen, man, the Thunder, they've got some,

[Brian Windhorst]

they've got some problems right now. You know, A.J. mitchell has a calf strain. He hasn't been ruled out officially of the series, but common sense tells you it's probably pretty unlikely that he'll be able to play again in the series. Jalen Williams. J Dub has the hamstring. They're still calling it soreness, not a strain. You know, we will see if he's able to.

[Tim Bontemps]

Seven minutes since he walked off the court the other day.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, well, so we'll see if he's able to come back in the series. But that's a lot of creation, a lot of playmaking, sitting on the bench in street clothes, a lot of burden just planted on Shay's shoulders. And Shay's got enough to deal with. He's got to deal with Stefan Castle up in his grill. He's got to deal with all these double teams he's got to deal with. If he does find a crack in the defense, you got a seven and a half foot alien back there, you know, wait, waiting to reject your stuff. The spurs are an elite defensive team. The Thunder are a wounded offensive team. And the Thunder, even under those circumstances, did not play well. You know, as, as Mark degenault said, the spurs physicality was much more impactful than the force that Thunder played with. And that's how you have their highest turnover game in the playoffs and their worst shooting game of the playoffs.

[Ben McMahon]

When the Thunder are getting out turnover in a game like they did tonight, when they had more turnovers than the spurs did, that, that is obviously not a recipe for success for them, particularly when they're missing A.J. mitchell, even though he struggled in this series before he got hurt. And Jalen Williams and I, I thought it was really smart of San Antonio. I mean, you mentioned the double teams, but man, there weren't a ton of those today. It was, I mean, there were a couple, but it was a lot of just, we're going to make you go at Stefan Castle and score, and we're not going to allow you to make these easy passes to open guys for three point shots. Now, Jared McCain was very bad today. He was as bad today as he was good the other night. Jalen Williams was great the other night. Couldn't hit the broadside of a barn today. Obviously those guys missing open shots hurts. But I thought it was a smart strategy for San Antonio to say, all right, the other two main ball handlers are not on the court. Let's just make Shea try to manufacture points on his own and not let these guys start the blender and get easy looks. I thought that was a big part of what allowed San Antonio to really build that early lead. Because if those, as soon as those guys stopped hitting shots and it was like, all right, where's the offense coming from? And, you know, it quickly became, like you said, even on a night like Brian Said where San Antonio didn't hit shots. It was the spurs physicality really winning the day.

[Brian Windhorst]

Felt like more than eight minutes into the game. Isaiah Hardenstein floaters were the only thunder buckets and he came out and he hit a worry but he, he hit four floaters and they didn't score other than that in the first eight plus minutes of the game. And they've had bad starts both these last couple games. You know, the, the bench. I don't, I don't let's. I don't know what the exact bench scoring was, but it sure wasn't 76 in this game. I mean they got, well, there was

[Tim Bontemps]

a lot of garbage time.

[Ben McMahon]

So yeah, they got some garbage time.

[Tim Bontemps]

Still compute it. But I will say that, you know, Bontems talked about this. I, we'll see what the, what the report is on the double teams. I, I still feel like they brought double teams to Shay, but instead of double teaming him like when he came over half court and it made it easier to create four on three scenarios, they made him commit to his drive and then brought help. It's a subtle difference, but it makes it easier for your players to help and recover.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. And listen, I thought like Stefan Castle, you look at his box score line, it's nothing special. I thought he was awesome third quarter tonight.

[Tim Bontemps]

He was the star on the court.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. And I thought even the first half, like he didn't do a whole lot offensively, but I thought defensively, obviously you're always going to talk about Wimby when you talk about the spurs defense. I thought Stefan Castle was absolutely elite all night as the primary guy on Shea and he set the tone. Yeah. Shay is, Shay's not a like a real like powerful guy in terms of like, you know, he's not a huge guy, but you don't see him get just manhandled very often. And I thought Stefan Castle was up in him and you know, was, was dictating the terms of engagement all night that matchup.

[Ben McMahon]

Yep.

[Tim Bontemps]

One other thing for the, for the Thunder, obviously no Jalen Williams and no A.J. mitchell, you're losing. Incredible perimeter scoring, perimeter shot creation against, you know, against the Lakers, Chet Holmgren dominated. Now I know that the Lakers front line and the spurs front line. Comparing the two is really a fruitless maneuver. But Chet had some huge performances in those games.

[Ben McMahon]

Okay, Look, Chet was 37 for 38 within five feet of the basket in the first two rounds of the playoffs. 37 for 38. I don't care who you're playing against. That's dominant stuff.

[Tim Bontemps]

He had a five game run against Phoenix and the Lakers. These were his numbers, 24 and 12, 24, 12, 22 and 9, 18 and 9, 16 and 9. He has failed to crack 10, I think twice.

[Ben McMahon]

He's just not been good enough. I mean he's just not been good enough. And it's looked like a mental thing frankly. I mean it.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I think number one has something to do with.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, but that's the mental thing. It's that guy wants to take his head off every time he plays him. And Chet has not risen to the moment on that. Like and they. And going into game five, I mean I said it after game two, even though the sport we haven't fought in the last couple days. But like Chet was really bad in the first two games. He had an okay game in game three. But like with these guys out, he can't have an okay game. He's got to be good, he has to be effective for them. Isaiah Hardenstein's been really good, but they, they need Chet Holmgren to be an impactful all NBA caliber player the final three, two or three games this year. So however long it goes, they can't have him being borderline invisible, which is what he's been through the first four.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, and he's by default. He has to be one of their primary creators now. He only got eight shots up tonight. That's not enough. He had as many buckets as he did turnovers. That ain't going to cut it. Honestly, the biggest surprise me when I'm looking at the box score. His Chet was a plus two because he was completely unimpactful. I mean offensively he was damn near invisible. And he was a third. He was a third team all NBA selection I thought deservedly so. He's got to play to that level. He has to play that. And look, he did like he went and he tried to dunk it on Wimby early in this game and Wimby returned that thing to cinder. And I thought Chet was a very hesitant player the rest of the game.

[Tim Bontemps]

I have to say it's a great point. I have to say the thing in the box score that made my eyebrow go up was the fact that Alex Caruso, who has been the X factor in the series was shooting 60% from three. He played 14 minutes tonight. He was minus 22. He's obviously been the plus minus star of that series until tonight. McMahon, he got one shot off.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, and look, that tells you that the spurs are no longer you know, they're not putting Wimby on him anymore. Right. He. He shot him out of that. You know, Wimby was, Was guarding the bigs tonight. So they. He shot the spurs out of that strategy. I mean, I would say the only silver lining is Caruso playing 14 minutes. You know, you would think his legs would feel fairly fresh.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. Dagon wave the white flag in the fourth quarter.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, but this was. I mean, listen, man, Isaiah Hardenstein is really the only guy on the. If you want to say Kenrich Williams who got minutes for the first time, really all series, those are the only guys I thought were halfway decent for the Thunder tonight.

[Ben McMahon]

Everyone else, Kayson Wallace was. Had some stretches where he was pretty good, but everybody else, hey, during that

[Brian Windhorst]

stretch when Shea was out with the AB injury, Casen Wallace, if you remember, he was putting together like 20 point high assist type of performances. They, they. He's got to be able to get.

[Ben McMahon]

They need that too.

[Brian Windhorst]

He's got to be able to give him something offensive. He's got to be able to give him something creation. And you know, he like a lot of guys, when he does get in the paint and Wimby's on the floor, he ain't looking at the rim. He's not looking at the rim paint scoring tonight, 50 to 36. 36 ain't gonna cut it, man.

[Ben McMahon]

No, I mean, it's. I mean, again, the Thunder live off points, off turnovers. They have more turnovers than they created today. The spurs had a ton more free throws. The Thunder didn't hit any threes. I mean, they didn't check any of the boxes. And we should, and we should say too, the spurs played like a team that was down 2:1 at home. Right. Like they came out and from the opening tip, they were insanely aggressive. I think you were spot on. Like, yes, Victor had some incredible plays like he always does. I thought the MVP of the game was Stefan Castle with the way he set the tone right from the jump. No, no, Victor was incredible. But I just mean in terms of, in terms of like, the tone was set by the ways to find. Castle got into Shea from the second the game started. And Shane never felt comfortable the whole game. Like you said, he looked rattled the whole game. He's losing the ball. Getting knocked away from him, committing turnovers. Like he never was comfortable the whole game. And that was because of the unrelenting pressure that Castle put on him. And I thought that really did, from the opening tip set the tone for what the level of desperation, the spurs needed to play with to make sure they didn't go down 3:1. And I mean, obviously Victor made like 19 insane plays. I mean, Brian texted us the, the one where he dunked on the fast break. I thought it was like his fifth or sixth best play of the game. Like he did just wild stuff.

[Tim Bontemps]

I just couldn't believe how he got from outside the, the foul line to the basket with his left hand. It was just a.

[Brian Windhorst]

He had another one. Had another lefty dunk like that where he cast on his back and transition and Wimpy was like, oh wait, I thought you were going to finish.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, I'm not even, I'm not even sure who Castled. He, he. It was a three on one fast break and Castle just threw it behind his back and he was like, one of you two guys get this.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, somebody will get it. Well, how about the one where Victor tipped the ball? Victor was on the, I think the left side of the basket. The ball went up and he went under the other side and like reverse tapped it in like a volleyball. Yeah, I mean that was insane too. I mean he tried to throw it to him off himself, off the backboard two or three times again.

[Brian Windhorst]

So the guy, the guy hits a, a, like a comfortable, good form pull up half court shot in the first half and then 30 seconds in the second half catches a lob in traffic and gets an and one dunk. I mean like get you, get you a big man who can do both.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, just completely insane.

[Tim Bontemps]

I felt that in game three. I felt that ch. That, that Victor looked a little fatigued. And if you looked at the rebounding, particularly the offensive rebounding, which is a real effort thing in a lot of cases. He had nine in game one, aided by overtime, but still I think he had seven in regulation. Then he had five offensive rebounds in game two. Then in game three, he had no offensive rebounds and only four rebounds. And if you watch, I just felt in that game, McMahon, he looked, he looked tired. He was much more refreshed tonight.

[Brian Windhorst]

Sure. And, and I, I think he was completely off his feet. Yesterday we went to, to the spurs availability. They had a film session and then, you know, most guys got out there and got some shots up. Wimby wasn't in workout gear. He was in like a Nike, a Nike tech suit. I think it was a recovery day.

[Ben McMahon]

Whatever he did on Saturday, do it again on Monday, do the same thing.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's understandable that he was fatigued again. 49 minutes, the most he played in his life. As great as he finished that game, you know, and proved he could run through the finish line in a double overtime game, there's an effect of a 49 minute performance that that physical. And then a Hartenstein really was just leaning and grabbing and pushing and shoving all over him in game two. And the Thunder are able to send waves of guys at him. You know, it's like Chet said between games three and four, you know, he was talking about the advantage of having fresh legs to wear guys down. He said, but we're not just putting guys out there just for the sake of having fresh legs. The dudes going into the games are dudes. You know, the Thunder have a lot of dudes now. None of those dudes made shots tonight. That was a. A pretty big difference. But you know, Jaylen Williams J. Will says, hey man, when I go in there, I know I'm not going to play nearly as many minutes as Wimy. So basically his job is to be as physical with him as possible. To go all out balls to the wall and try to try to wear him down. Wimy did not look like a worn down guy. And the other thing is the other stat that really stood out. I don't have his exact dunk total right now from tonight's game. I don't know if you guys do, but he had six dunks in game one. He only had two combined in games two and three. He had several tonight.

[Ben McMahon]

I don't know how many. He had at least a two or three tonight. I don't know how many wound up with, but it was I think several.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'll take a look at the Bucks were here.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I mean he was, you know, he was throwing it down tonight.

[Ben McMahon]

A lot of this I think does go back to the, to game one where I think the play better adjustment is probably the, the thing that the Thunder have to lean into. But you know, for like we talked about coming out of game two with the injury to Dylan Harper and the injury status of De' Aaron Fox, like no A.J. mitchell and no Jalen Williams puts a ton of pressure on Shay to have to deliver. And Shay's gotta be the best player on the court in game five. And that's a tall order when you're out there with Victor and you're out there with Stefan Castle in your face and Dylan Harper and all these guys who can. Carter Bryant, who they can throw at them. But the MVP's got to have an MVP game in game five probably without either of those guys playing. Obviously they need the other guys to hit Shots, they need the other guys to play better. They need to do a lot more of the stuff they did in game three. But Chase gotta be awesome in game three for these guys. Like that's, that's, it's stating the obvious, but it, it is pretty clearly what needs to happen.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, and look, Wimby has been the most dominant force on the floor in two of the four games and the series is two, two. You know, and I said after game one, he's going to have to do it four times. He's halfway there, you know, and you know, Shay Shays, honestly, Caruso has probably been their best player in at least one of their wins. But Shane, he understands. And it's even more amplified just by the fact that he is really the only big time creator that they've got healthy right now. You know, Case Wallace can do a little bit there. You know, they need Chet to do a little bit. They need the Jared McCain from Game 3 to show back up. But Shea is carrying as heavy an offensive burden as you possibly can right now against just a loaded defense.

[Tim Bontemps]

Four dunks tonight, one alley oop layup, which is, was like, kind of like a dunk, but four official dunks. And by the way, since I was just looking at the play by play, they gave him a 43ft on that shot at the halftime or at the threat second in the second quarter there.

[Ben McMahon]

Might have cheated him a couple feet. Thought he was right at right at half court.

[Brian Windhorst]

I got to figure out why does he ever go inside the like 30 something feet. Like every time I've seen this guy in the series takes him from 30 plus feet.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's, I think he's got two 30 footers already and then he's got a 40 footer in four games.

[Ben McMahon]

It's just crazy. It's just.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, he really is, he's a hilarious player. Like you will laugh out loud multiple times a game watching this guy play just because some of the things he

[Ben McMahon]

does I did tonight sitting on my couch, it was unbelievable.

[Brian Windhorst]

I also cracked up when he hit the half court shot and Stefan Castle like jumped in his arms.

[Tim Bontemps]

Careful.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, it's like, hold on, he's tired.

[Ben McMahon]

That is the Thunder plate in this game. Down 5, I believe with the ball with about a minute to go in the first half. Right?

[Tim Bontemps]

That's right.

[Ben McMahon]

That, that was the whole game, that final minute of the second quarter because.

[Tim Bontemps]

And the first like three minutes of the third quarter.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, but, but at that point it was already back to double digits at halftime. Right. Like if if they, if they able, if they close the half, well, it's a one or two possession game. And you're thinking, man, the Thunder are on the road without these guys. They're playing like crap. And they're right there like that, that's just. And then, and there would have been

[Brian Windhorst]

a ton of pressure on the spurs because you go down 3:1, it's, it's all but over.

[Ben McMahon]

And instead they have a 7:0 run capped off by Victor hitting this half court shot. And you could see, you could see plainly on the broadcast, that shot goes in and Jaylen Wiens, a couple other guys are just like, come on. Like, are you kidding me? This half court shot goes in without touching the rim. Like that was just a soul crushing minute. And then of course, like you said, they come out the start of the third quarter, the spurs are feeling good, they go on a run, the game's over right there, right? But like that, that was a, a massive moment in the game. And the spurs rose to it and, and 8 foot 8. This was a huge moment for them. A young team down 2:1 against the champs. And they came out and from the opening minute of the game just were like, yeah, we're going to win the game today and we're going to set the tone and we're going to get in your face and we're going to make life miserable for you. And they succeeded on every front. Like it was awesome.

[Tim Bontemps]

There was a kind of a quasi elimination game because if you go down three one, your chances of beating the Thunder, I don't care who's healthy, your chances of beating the Thunder three in a row with two games in Oklahoma City. I just don't like them. They came out tonight like a team that had to win to stay alive. Which is the exact inverse of the way the Cavs came out against the Knicks in Cleveland on Saturday night, which we'll talk about in a second. McMahon, you have to go to work and go do some writing. And so we appreciate you joining us.

[Brian Windhorst]

Do I get my audio some Migos now or do we like, do I come back and get a cameo at the end?

[Tim Bontemps]

Talk to Jackson about that.

[Ben McMahon]

Gotta do it now.

[Brian Windhorst]

Adios amigos.

[Ben McMahon]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this bus. Rolney here for La Quinta by Windham. Summer work, travel can feel like extra innings, long days, late nights, and not a lot of room to stretch out. Especially when your hotel room feels more like the dugout than the clubhouse. But when you stay at La Quinta by Wyndham, you can step up to spacious suites that give you room to relax, recharge and get ready for the next day. I always feel like I need that when I'm traveling on the road covering ball games. Plus, you can earn Wyndham Rewards points with every qualified stay because when you've got space to unwind, you're always playing at your best. Tonight La Quinta. Tomorrow you shine. Book your next work [e-mail] Terms and conditions apply.

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[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, McMahon went off to do some work. Our editors will be happy. He will get them some copy eventually. So now let's turn towards what's going on here in Cleveland. Fun temps, where The Knicks have a 3.0lead and will attempt to close out the Cavs on Monday night and go to their the first finals since 1999, which, you know, was. He was a lockout year and they were the eighth seed and that was kind of a wonky playoffs, but whatever, it counts. But basically this is, you know, most of the Knicks players, or many of the Knicks players weren't even alive or certainly aware last time they went to the finals. It is a big accomplishment to be in one win away. And I will tell you that I. The feel that I got from being around the Knicks last night was that they are very much focused on the bigger picture. Having said that, getting one more win is a major accomplishment for the Knicks and so I do think that should be acknowledged. But they have been far and away the better team in this series. They had a pretty thorough beating of the Cavs. There was essentially no drama in that game. You're expecting a team down.02 playing at home to really fight back. The Knicks scored 37 points in the first quarter and maintained a comfortable lead throughout and pretty much had their way with the Cavs. And I will tell you that there's two ways to look at this. You can certainly look at it from the Cavs perspective, but I really think that the Knicks are just proving to be a very good team with a very potent roster that has come together at the right time. We've seen this occasionally over the years where a team hits its potential and a lot of people judge teams on, you know, what their potential can be. This team was judged throughout the year and what its potential could be. There was frustration when they didn't live up to it. Well, they're living up to it now and now is when you have to live up to it. And so they are going to. They are a very formidable team and one win away from being a very formidable Eastern Conference representative in the Finals.

[Ben McMahon]

I think, yeah, I mean we've talked about it a lot during this 10 game run where they now have a plus, I believe, two, 25 point differential, the greatest point differential over 10 games in the history of the NBA, regardless of the regular or post season, which is a pretty remarkable statistic when you look at the way the Knicks have played. And, and look, the Knicks were a team that was less than the sum of their parts for the better part of two years. And that was the frustration that people had with the Knicks basically all of last season. It was a frustration that people had with the Knicks basically all of this season. And after game three against the Atlanta Hawks a month ago, unbelievably, the Knicks have ripped off one of the best 10 game stretches you'll ever see. And it's been remarkable. And hardly any of the games have been close. I mean, obviously they had the huge comeback in game one where they should have lost, and the Cavs blew that one. But, you know, and they obviously had the close game in game two against the, the Sixers at home in the last round. But other than that, pretty much every one of these games has been a very comfortable victory. And the way they're playing on a string, totally locked in, different guys stepping up and contributing, it's incredibly impressive. And you know, we just got done talking about the spurs and the urgency with which they played in this game four, and I thought, you know, watching at home, I thought our broadcast crew did a great job of emphasizing the pretty clear lack of desperation from the Cavs and what I thought was a pretty clear feeling of desperation from the Knicks. To go back to what you talked about on the pod after game two, which was this is a golden opportunity for the New York Knicks to get this series done and dusted and get rest and avoid injury and wait to see what happens in this war on the other side, right? And the Knicks came out from the opening tip of game three and looked like a team on a mission to put a hammer lock on that series. And the Cavs, frankly, never seemed to get out of second gear the entire game. It was a very weird performance, I thought, from a team that was down. 02 coming home where they'd been very good in the playoffs, and they just didn't really have much life in them the whole game. And like you said, it was sort of a ho hum, 15 point game. The entire game it felt like, yeah,

[Tim Bontemps]

you know, the Cavs. So. All right, let's, let's deal with what happened on Sunday, which is Kenny Atkinson, you know, had availability of practice and, you know, he has talked throughout this series. He's talked throughout the season, but particularly throughout the series. He's been talking about expected shooting percentages and whatnot, which is, you know, an analytic metric where you take, you know, what a certain shooter, you know, should shoot based on his average for the season, based on how open he was, et cetera. It's a complex, multi layered analytic device

[Ben McMahon]

and it has essentially just accounting for shot luck, if you want to just boil it down, right?

[Tim Bontemps]

It's an attempt to quantify luck. Basically what Kenny Atkinson is saying is the Knicks have been lucky, we've been unlucky, and the Knicks have been lucky. And he has been referencing this during the series. And he went for the holy grail of it on Sunday when he said, analytically, we should have won two of the three games.

[Ben McMahon]

And, you know, not a smart thing to say, like, whatever the stats say, like, I, I understand what Kenny's doing. It's kind of the same thing as after game one when he just had this fairly ridiculous attempt to try to make James Harden into a good defensive player. Like, I understood what he was doing then, too. But you just don't have to say anything. Just say, we've got to play better in game four. That's all you have to say. You're down all three in the series. Don't try to say you're actually up to one on paper because you're not.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right? It's just like, look, regardless of what the. The. The. The readout might say, regardless of what you might believe, it's just. It's an impossible sell right now.

[Ben McMahon]

Right? It's one thing to say. It's one thing to say, look, we've gotten unlucky in the series. We feel like we can generate good looks if we hit open shots, we can get ourselves back in this series. That totally reasonable thing to say.

[Tim Bontemps]

Correct.

[Ben McMahon]

Saying we are down.03, but really we're up to one is a patently insane thing to say.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right? It's frankly, I had a friend text me like, is this an AI video? When he saw. He's like, is this an AI video? Like, is it. Is it a. Is this a skit? Is this a Saturday Night Live skit? Was this written?

[Ben McMahon]

It's a tone deaf thing to say. Just like the James Harden stuff was a tone deaf thing to say. You don't have to say, James Harden stinks on defense, but you also don't need to say, oh, man, listen, James is great. And it was everybody else's fault that he was getting roasted by Jalen Brunson. Like, no, you don't have to say that.

[Tim Bontemps]

Again, that his comment on that was, we were. We were lousy on offense and our help defense was just as culpable as James for giving up all those baskets to Brunson. There is some truth to that.

[Ben McMahon]

Yes.

[Tim Bontemps]

There is some truth to both of those statements.

[Ben McMahon]

But again, not say there. We have to play better. Just say that.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right?

[Ben McMahon]

Cause this is just throwing fuel on the fire for absolutely no gain at all.

[Tim Bontemps]

Exactly. Exactly. It's just an impossible sell. Here's the other thing. The Cavs are just fatigued. They're just Fatigued and your models about shot luck and what you should be shooting. Don't count into the fact that the Cavs legs are dead.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, let's drill into that. Why are the Cavs legs dead?

[Tim Bontemps]

Because they've played four.

[Ben McMahon]

No, four.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, they're a whole series, more games than the playoffs. And the Knicks.

[Ben McMahon]

But that, that's over. You know where I'm going. The Cavs. The Cavs legs are dead because they blew game four against Toronto. Game they had in the bag should have won and didn't, to be clear

[Tim Bontemps]

on that, that they were. It was in Toronto. They were up by, I believe, eight in the fourth quarter with 5ish minutes left or nine with six.

[Ben McMahon]

The Raptors made like two threes. The whole game worked. She had no business winning the game and came back and won the game at all.

[Tim Bontemps]

As a rough guide, I've always thought, and this is not backed up by anything, it's just me watching a lot of basketball. If you, if you lead by more points than our minutes are remaining, you should win that game.

[Ben McMahon]

It's a reasonable theory.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, so I think they were up 8 or 9 with 5, 4 or 5 minutes left.

[Ben McMahon]

More than enough to win the game. They don't win the game. That series goes seven games. They have a chance to close out the Detroit series. In game six at home, they get absolutely demolished. Yes, they come back and win Game 7 in advance, but if they win that Game 6, yes, they would have had to come back and play Game 1 on Sunday, but they would have had three days off in the middle of this series and it would have had a chance to get some rest. Then in game one, they're up by 22 or 23 with eight minutes to go in the game, and they completely implode, have one of the worst collapses I've ever seen and lose that game going away in overtime. Like, it's one thing to have one of those games in the playoffs. To have three of them in the playoffs. You're just not going to come back from that. And they managed to survive the first two, and they are not going to survive the third.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right. And if you, I mean, you know, look, the. In the playoffs, the other teams are good. I could see you losing in one of those spots, but you lose in all three. Like I said, they've played four more games than the Knicks have. Okay. They. I keep referencing their playoff record because it's an indication of their, of where they are as A team. They're eight and nine in the playoffs. Okay, so they're shooting 29% on three in the series and their legs, I think, are dead. I mean, you look at people, look at Donovan Mitchell and they're saying, what's his injury? What's his injury? He has no burst. Well, he may have something nagging him, but he has no burst because his legs are gone.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay. And Harden is the same way. And their other shooters are the same way. They have played incredible amounts of minutes more than the team that they're playing. And I would just say, as we see the injury reports stack up and put more players play through injury. And now, like, look, I mean, I'm certainly taking. If you're asking me if I'm taking, you know, either this. If you're taking. If you're asking me how many games the Spurs Thunder series is going to go and you set the over under at six and a half. What are you taking? Bon Temps.

[Ben McMahon]

Kind of tempted to take the under and think the spurs are going to win the next game.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right, well, I'll take the over.

[Ben McMahon]

I'll say seven. I'll say seven.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay. I think that series got a real reasonable chance of going.

[Ben McMahon]

Seven should go. Seven. It should go.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, so, you know, if you're the Knicks plunge the dagger, finish it off and go do what you just did. Right. Again.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, and that's what they look like in game three for the moment the game started. Right. They came out on a mission to put that series away. And the Cavs, the Cavs look like a team that was up too, all on the road. Like they just had no emotion, no real fight, no energy. Like, you know, they just, I mean, I mean, hell, with two minutes in the game, they just quit. I mean.

[Tim Bontemps]

Thanks.

[Ben McMahon]

What I'm about to say, it was wild to see.

[Tim Bontemps]

I feel like could get me in trouble.

[Ben McMahon]

All right, let's go say it.

[Tim Bontemps]

But, you know, I've covered many playoff runs in Cleveland. Many, many. You know, I've covered, I think, five different teams that have gone to the finals.

[Ben McMahon]

You've covered every relevant playoff run for the last 20 plus years.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. The city doesn't feel like, you know, there's not like super amounts of signage around town. The building last night, I mean, it was good. But, you know, I've been to so many playoff games where that building is. I mean, that building is truly a great playoff building. You know, I was talking with some of the Knicks folks last night and, you know, it's a uniquely designed building where there's like three decks where the first two decks are sort of closer than normal. There's like. It's sort of a unique. There's no other arena in the league designed like it. And Even though it's 30 years old, it doesn't feel old. Like, you know, some. There's some arenas in the NBA that are 30 years old that are worn the f out for sure, and this one is not one of them. But anyway, the building didn't have the juice that I normally. I just. What I'm wondering is. I'm wondering if the. If everybody here truly believes in this run.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, those fans have seen great teams, like, truly great teams, and this. This is not one of those teams. Like, they. I mean, look, they've had one of those.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't want to take anything away from them. I just. I'm just telling you, I don't. Being in this city for so many big games, I just don't feel it.

[Ben McMahon]

Look, the fact of the matter is, it's one of the least impressive conference finals appearances we've seen. Like, they wheeze their way through two series.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't like parsing conference finals runs.

[Ben McMahon]

Listen, I'm just. It is what it is, man.

[Brian Windhorst]

They.

[Ben McMahon]

They played a injured Raptors team and struggled to beat them, and they played a. A young and what felt like an overmatched Pistons team and were lucky to beat them in some ways. Like, you know, it. It is what it is. Like, they won the games. They got to the conference finals. It's a big accomplishment for Donovan Mitchell and Kenny Atkinson and James Harden had been in the conference finals and I think, what, eight years, I think since that 2018 series against Golden State. Yeah, it's not nothing. It's not nothing to do that. But if you, if you. If you come into this series, like, was anybody really thinking. It was like, I picked the Knicks to win in five. I think the general consensus was the Knicks were going to win in five, maybe six games. The Cavs are certainly talented enough to win the series. I think the Cavs are talent enough to win a couple games now in the series. I. I don't. I'm not certain it's going to be a sweep.

[Tim Bontemps]

If the Knicks were playing below their. Below their level, like, not just. Not at their best. If they were playing a little bit off, like, the Cavs have been a little bit off from their. From their best. Their Cavs have been a little bit off from their average. Frankly, if the Knicks were playing a little bit off from their average and the Cavs were playing their best, they absolutely could win. They could beat the Knicks. But that's not the case at all. It's the exact inverse.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, no, for sure. And I would even say if. If the Cavs are just playing well, because look, the Cavs have a ton of talent. I mean, for most of the season, the Cavs and the Knicks were in the exact same spot. They came into the season as two teams that were favored, the two co favorites to make the NBA Finals. This was the projected conference finals matchup before the season started. And throughout the season, both the Knicks and the Cav, I mean, you follow the Cavs more than anybody. Both these teams were sort of in the same spot. They were less than the sum of their parts. They were kind of disjointed. They had weird losses. They were kind of frustrating to watch. Nobody was really sure what to make of them. Right. And the first round starts and the Knicks are down 2:1 and the Cavs are 2:2. I think it was that afternoon when the Cavs lost to Toronto to go to 22 of game four for the Knicks. So like at through the first three or four games of the playoffs, these teams were in the same spot.

[Tim Bontemps]

Weren't the Knicks down at the half of game four?

[Ben McMahon]

I think so, but I don't remember. I think it came out and played well in that game. But the point is, yeah, I remember

[Tim Bontemps]

like the second half of game four is when there is when they took flight.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, the point is, through the first half of the first round, both these teams would have been seen as underachieving disappointments. The difference is the Knicks turned into a supernova that hasn't cooled off since. And the Cavs have remained an underachieving disappointment that has like wheezed their way through these series.

[Tim Bontemps]

Look, they've executed in the game sevens like you game sevens.

[Ben McMahon]

They've survived in advance. Yeah, they've survived in advance. And if, and listen, if the Cavs again, it's a what if. But if the Cavs had taken care of business in game one and just close that game out, like everything could be totally different because the Knicks had all this pressure on them. They looked like it for the first 40 minutes of game one. They were a total mess. The Cavs played incredibly for about 20 straight minutes. They had the game under control. And if Cleveland wins that game, I mean, you know what? It would have been here for 48 hours. It would have been in sheer panic. Oh, man. Are the Knicks going to lose again? They lost game one to Indiana last year. They're going to lose Game two again, like they did last year. Is this just going to be another, you know, Lucy in the football moment for the Knicks? Right? But they escape, they get the win, they come back and play well in game two, get another home win, keep home court. And then, like I said, it was just, it was so striking to see how the Knicks approach Game 3 and how the Cavs approach Game 3, because the Knicks played with the desperation the spurs did tonight. Down two one in game four. And the Cavs just didn't have that. Whether it's a legs, whether, whatever it is, they didn't have that kind of urgency really at any point in the game. And you know, I, I thought the Cows are going to come out like an absolute house of fire in game three. I thought the Knicks could win, but I, I thought, like, I thought the Cows were winning that game. And it was, it was very surprising to me that the Knicks just were basically in control the entire time.

[Tim Bontemps]

By the way, Mikhail Bridges is shooting 65% in the playoffs.

[Ben McMahon]

I mean, some of the shooting for the Knicks is truly, truly out of this world. It really is, though I will say it is. Like they are just running solid offense and taking open shots and they're moving the ball and like Mikhail Bridges is getting open jumpers.

[Tim Bontemps]

Excuse me, sir. I just checked with Kenny Atkinson. The Knicks are lucky. Andrew Shammat is 7 of 8 on threes in the series. Like, you know, he's, he's running hot. But Carl Towns, Carl Townes is actually, his numbers are, are mildly down in this series from the last round. He's shooting under 50%. He's not really needed as much in this series. The ball is way more in Brunson's hands. Brunson's. By the way, Jalen Brunson is 2 of 17 on 3. I mean, like I have, I don't see the same numbers that Kenny Atkinson is seeing. You know, I'm just saying.

[Ben McMahon]

But Jalen Brunson, I mean, listen, it's very easy to draw up how, how, how he would say the Cavs, how he would get to that point. I mean, in game two, the Cavs were 9 for 35 from three and they're good three point shooters. Missed all of them. And Josh Hart, who is not a good three point shooter, made every three. Right. Like, that's, that's.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay.

[Tim Bontemps]

Having said that, Josh Hart is 8 of 23 on threes in the series. Correct.

[Ben McMahon]

Brunson is basically all of them in that game. I, Listen, I know that's, I'm not trying to defend Kenny Atkinson on how what his comments.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's just also there was a lot of.

[Ben McMahon]

I could see where the expected shot would say it's 2. 1. I've also heard a lot about expected shot numbers being around the Celtics a lot over the past several years and expected shot numbers win you zero games.

[Tim Bontemps]

So I saw some Knicks reaction in the last, you know, yesterday certainly. But just in general, you know, in reference to how well Bridges has been playing, you know, bleep them picks, you know, concept. I do just want to say this about the Bridges trade. When it comes to the picks and you know, the picks go out through 28, I think. Or actually 31. I think the farthest one out is 31.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah. So I was going to say it's a lot farther than 28.

[Tim Bontemps]

But let me just, let me just say the picks that the Knicks have sent so far, I think picks 19 and 26 in last year's draft, which were Nolan Traore and Ben Seraf. I'm not even worried about the players they pick. Let's just move away from that. But it picks 19 and 26 and this year the pick is in the mid 20s. I'm not sure which pick it is now. The picks are unprotected in, in 29 and 31 and there's an unprotected swap in 28.

[Ben McMahon]

It's not about where the picks land.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, it is right now, I think,

[Ben McMahon]

but, but that's not, that's not what you judge. Again, this, this goes back to the discussion we had all season about the Hawks trade. Like the, the process of the Hawks Pelicans trade from the Pelican standpoint was awful. There's just no arguing that now. They didn't get the bad luck of getting the Hawk. Having the Hawks jump up into the top four, but they gave up the 23rd pick and a lottery pick for the 13th pick in the draft. Like that's just bad process that I think the jury is out on whether the McHale bridges trade ultimately winds up being good process because a, the, the only result to me that matters is not where the picks land. It's do the Knicks win a title? Because you make that trade to win a title. And this has been an unbelievable season. And it, I don't think it should be denigrated if the Knicks get to the Finals and lose. And I'm not saying the Knicks are going to lose necessarily because they're playing out of their minds. But you make that trade not to make the Finals but to win a type or to win titles. So if we get to the end of this run and the Knicks have one Finals appearance and don't win a title, you could make an argument that by making that trade and shutting the door on really any other opportunity to use picks to go get some other star player, be it Giannis or whoever, right? You could argue the opportunity cost wasn't worth doing that trade at the time. But a lot of that is also revisionist history. And at the end of the day, the Knicks have made the trade and wherever the picks land, like, you know, that. That is less relevant to me than what was the point of it, like, to go back to the, the way back to like the first one of these mega trades, right. One I covered when the Nets and Celtics made the Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett trade. If, if that Nets team had won a title in 2014 and then the Celtics had gotten the third pick in the draft in 17 and the third pick in the draft in or 16 and 17, right. That trade would have been a win for Brooklyn. But they didn't. They got to the second round once. Like, that's not good enough to trade off.

[Tim Bontemps]

You know why it would have been a win?

[Ben McMahon]

Because you never have to say you're sorry if you win a title, as a very wise person has said, because

[Tim Bontemps]

winning a championship means never having to say you're sorry.

[Ben McMahon]

But that's, that's. Look, the whole, the whole debate about both the Carl Towns trade and the Mikhail Bridges trade in tandem, right. Is it basically locked the Knicks into this team and this group, and the question always was going to be, is this group good enough? And I. You can argue, like, the Knicks win one more game, which I think they are. I would now think they will win that Monday night, but we'll see. Maybe it'll be Wednesday or Friday or

[Tim Bontemps]

Sunday, but maybe the luck will turn. Will turn drastically.

[Ben McMahon]

Maybe it'll turn all the way around and the Cavs will win the series six one. Maybe that'll happen. But. But assuming they do and they make. And they make the final. Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

What if they win? Actually, we should. As Kenny Atkinson holds the Eastern Conference. We actually should have won this six. Six. Well, we should have won this in four.

[Ben McMahon]

It'll be the first six. It'll be the first six one series in NBA history if that happens.

[Tim Bontemps]

But.

[Ben McMahon]

But if, if the Knicks make the Finals, like I. You, I think you can make a credible argument that those trades were worth it because you get to the Finals and you give yourself A chance. And that's what you're trying to do.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, the, the Knicks fans that were revelrying in the euphoria of going up 30 were, were deciding that it was worth it.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, sure, and I get that.

[Tim Bontemps]

And, and also decide that yet obviously if they win five more games, you decide it. But as you just said.

[Ben McMahon]

Oh, for sure.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm just, I'm saying when you have the scorecard and they say five first round picks, just remember that the first three picks are 19, 25 and whatever this is, is 25, that's fine.

[Ben McMahon]

But the, the, and I, I anyway, the, the other thing, the other thing to account for too, and what the Knicks were doing and you, you've written about this, as have I. When the Knicks made those two trades going into last season, they basically were saying, all right, we're going to have this team for the next four or five years and where all this chaos is going to happen around us. And the second aprons, which the Cavs are now in. The Celtics have had to sacrifice players because of the second apron. You know, the Pistons are about to have to spend a lot of money, all these other things going on. The Knicks have their core guys all under contract and locked in for basically a five year stretch and their bet was if we can keep this group together and not be in the second apron, which they're not to, not to this point anyway, they're going to get opportunities and they're going to get a couple bites at the apple and they could maybe get one. And what I would say is, whatever your opinion is on Mikhail Bridges, that thinking in year two looks pretty good because they're sitting one win away from the finals and they've got a team that should be able to repeat this for the next couple years. I'm not saying they're making the finals the next couple of years, but they're going to be right there the next couple of years. Whereas Cleveland and Boston and Indiana and Detroit and all these teams have a lot of questions.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right. And I will say this. You know, they, I know that Leon Rose didn't say this publicly because he doesn't say anything publicly.

[Ben McMahon]

Publicly. Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

But their play all along, when they saw, when they evaluated the, the incoming aprons and what they had was to win the long game against the Celtics and the Bucks to a lesser extent, was that they believed that, especially when Jalen Brunson took that contract that freed them up just to put this team. Together. Their play was will because of their, because of the aprons. And the situation that we, meaning the Knicks, will outlast the Celtics and the Bucks. And they have that looks right now that strategy is coming home.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, they have. And look. And they might outlast the Cavs, too. Like, let's see what happens with the Cavs this summer.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, the Cavs sort of built this team a little bit after the Knicks, you know, went all in. You know, I don't know. We'll talk when the Cavs lose another game, we'll talk about whether what will happen with them in the off season.

[Ben McMahon]

Right. But you got Indiana. You know, Indiana's obviously got an interesting summer ahead. Detroit's got interesting summer ahead. You know, the Knicks, yeah, they got to get Mitchell Robinson signed. But the Knicks have their team and they're, they're, they haven't been in the second apron yet. They're set up really well. Yeah, I mean it's, and you know, now that they, I mean, the way they're playing now, I mean this is, it's, it's something to watch. It's, it's pretty, it's pretty wild and it's pretty fun.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right, we'll be talking more about that come come Tuesday.

[Brian Windhorst]

More HOOPP Collective podcast after this.

[Tim Bontemps]

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[Ben McMahon]

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[Tim Bontemps]

All right, the all NBA team came out on Sunday. There are obviously going to be certain fans who have their favorite players who feel a certain way about this. Again, based on the regular season. You know, it coming out six weeks into the playoffs always makes us a little bit dicey because you're saying, well, how can you say this when this guy's been gone for weeks? And that's all.

[Ben McMahon]

There was a lot of chatter about Jalen Duran on Sunday when there was no chatter about Jalen Duran being an all NBA player a month and a half ago when the voting was done.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right. So let me go through the teams real quick in case you didn't see them. The, the first team was Shai Gildas. Alexander was all on, on all 100 ballots. Jokic on all 100 ballots. Victor Wembanyama on 99 ballots, Luka Doncic on 91 ballots. Those are all, you know, quasi unanimous. Cade Cunningham was on 60 first team ballots and 38 second team ballots. So, you know, very high up. There's your five. That's pretty much how just to be

[Ben McMahon]

clear, Victor and Luca were on 100 ballots, but they had one and nine second team votes. But they were, they were. Those four guys all got a hundred votes.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right? I'm sorry, yes. But I'm just saying there was unanimous for.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, no, I was just, I was just clarifying.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right, so like, you know, there, there, it was relatively close between Jalen Brown. I mean there's only a few things that Were close on this. Jaylen Brown was, you know, Kate Cunningham had 414 total points. Jaylen Brown had 384. He was close to second. Kate Cunningham had 60 first place votes, first team votes. Jaylen Brown had 44. It was somewhat close, but 12 guys

[Ben McMahon]

had 95 votes and Jalen Johnson had. Well, don't go.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't want to get too, don't get too far ahead, please.

[Ben McMahon]

Sure.

[Tim Bontemps]

But you know, like again, if you're a Jaylen Brown fan, you could say that Jaylen Brown got screwed. And like I said, the vote was relatively close. I just don't think this vote is controversial.

[Ben McMahon]

First team all NBA ballot was everybody's top five for mvp and Jaylen Brown, who was sixth in MVP was sixth in voting. It's not. Jalen went on his twitch stream and said that the media doesn't like him so he got robbed. I would say the media voted for Jalen for a conference finals MVP and finals MVP two years ago and likes Jalen fine. And he had a fantastic year and

[Tim Bontemps]

he also made all NBA a couple years ago.

[Ben McMahon]

That's what I mean.

[Tim Bontemps]

You know, when he got his, his

[Ben McMahon]

bonus, when he got a supermax extension, he, he's, he, he had a great year.

[Tim Bontemps]

Like I said, if you're a Jaylen Brown fan, I'm not going to talk you out of it. I'm just saying I don't think it's controversial.

[Ben McMahon]

I think it's not.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay. The second team was Jalen Brown. Kawhi Leonard got slightly one little more vote than Donovan Mitchell. So you know, so Jaylen Brown got the sixth most votes. Kawhi Leonard seventh most votes. Jalen, Donovan Mitchell, eighth most votes. And then Kevin Durant, very close.

[Ben McMahon]

And Jalen was on 100 ballots and all those guys are on at least 97. So it was pretty much the top 12 or 13 guys are pretty much unanimous.

[Tim Bontemps]

And then Jalen Brunson is the last second team member. He got no first place votes, but was pretty much in everybody's second or third.

[Ben McMahon]

99 out of 100 bouts.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, he had a fair comfortable making second team ahead of Tyrese Maxey, who had the most votes on the third team? The third team is Tyrese Maxey, Jamal Murray, Jaylon Johnson from Atlanta making his first all NBA team. This is Maxey's first all NBA team?

[Ben McMahon]

I believe so, yes.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay. And then two guys who will certainly be debated in the coming days based on their playoff performance, which is Jalen Dern and Chet Holmgren who made his first ever All NBA team and he had a pretty significant lead. It was not that close. The first guy out was Denny Aviation, but it was not that close. For example, Chet had 63 third team votes and Denny had 23. So Chet won it. You know, got that spot relatively comfortably. Obviously Duran did not have a good postseason and Chet is struggling in this series, to put it mildly.

[Ben McMahon]

Chet, the two series before this was 37 for 38 from the field or inside of 5ft. I mean, Chat was great. I mean, he struggled against Victor. But again, this isn't a, this isn't a award on postseason performance. It's on play across the regular season. And so like, look, I, I had Jalen Duran and Chet, I had these 15 guys. This was my ballot. My. One of the tougher decisions on my ballot was choosing between Scotty Barnes, who hardly got any votes and Danny Abia and Kevin Durant, who was the last guy I put on as the, my final third team guy. But you know, like I say with these things all the time, there are a lot of really good players you have to cut off somewhere is a very difficult decision. I always spend a couple of hours on all NBA trying to figure out who to vote for every year because it matters a lot. I think about it during the year a lot. A couple hours on the literal day I'm doing the votes. I mean, I think about lot. But yeah, like it's, none of this is particularly controversial to me this year.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I mean like if you're a Carl talent, if you're a Knicks fan, you can say, well, you know, OG Anunoby, you know, the other day the defensive team, all defensive teams came out and OG Anunoby didn't make first team. You know, you can say, boy, you know, the, the media hates the, the Knicks because OG Anunoby made second team and Carl Towns, you know, finished basically 17th in the voting. I mean, you know, again, if you're a Knicks fan, you're going to feel a certain way. I'm not going to talk you out of it. I just know that it wasn't, none of these were really close.

[Ben McMahon]

I had OG first team, all defense, but I didn't.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think I did too. I can't actually remember. I can certainly check, but I thought OG was, was very, very potent this year. I thought this was the best year of OG's career and he's been having the best playoffs of his career and

[Ben McMahon]

he's been even better in the playoffs. No question.

[Tim Bontemps]

After, after a rusty game one, he's looked pretty damn good in games two and three for the Knicks.

[Ben McMahon]

And the reason why it's critical for them to win is to make sure he doesn't do anything to that hamstring and he gets another week off. I mean, that would be gigantic if they could get another eight or nine days for him to just sit back and rest that hammy and make sure he's 110% for whoever they face in the Finals.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, that's that. Thank you very much to all of our producers, to Tucker and Mark and Miles and Jackson. Thank you to McMahon for coming on earlier. Thank you for listening and watching the Hoop Collective. We'll talk to you later this week.

[Ben McMahon]

Bye everybody.

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