Wemby’s Outrageous Skillset On Display, NBA On-Court Product Best It Has Ever Been

Summary

Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective: Episode Summary

Episode Title: Wemby’s Outrageous Skillset On Display, NBA On-Court Product Best It Has Ever Been
Release Date: January 24, 2025

In this riveting episode of The Hoop Collective, host Brian Windhorst engages with ESPN insiders Ben McMahon and Tim Bontemps to dissect some of the most pressing topics in the NBA today. From Victor Wembanyama’s sensational performances to the NBA’s strategic moves in Europe, the conversation is both insightful and passionately delivered.

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1. Victor Wembanyama's Spectacular Performance in Paris

The episode kicks off with a deep dive into Victor Wembanyama's extraordinary display during an NBA game in Paris.

• Atmosphere of the Game:
  Brian Windhorst describes the event as an All-Star weekend centered around Wembanyama, noting the "theater lighting" and "immense pageantry" that made the game feel like a showcase event.
  “It felt like an All Star game because the court is lit with the theater lighting... there’s just immense, you know, pageantry around the game.” [01:02]

• Wembanyama's Dominance:
  Ben McMahon lauds Wembanyama’s dual impact on both ends of the court, highlighting his shot-blocking prowess and offensive versatility.
  “How about Giannis is attacking the rim more ruthlessly, more relentlessly than anybody has ever done it. We’re talking about a two-time MVP, Finals MVP.” [03:19]

• Historical Comparisons:
  The trio compares Wembanyama to legends like Bill Russell and Akeem Olajuwon, emphasizing that Wembanyama is poised to reach monumental defensive milestones.
  “I think he's reached 400 blocks in 108 games. I believe that’s pretty four blocks per game.” [05:37]

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2. NBA's Strategic Expansion into Europe

The conversation shifts to the NBA’s ambitions regarding European markets, spurred by Adam Silver's recent press conference.

• Adam Silver’s Vision:
  Brian Windhorst recounts Silver’s remarks about the potential launch of a European league, citing Silver’s acknowledgment of Europe's talent pool.
  “While Europe continues to develop some of the very best players in the world, many of our most recent MVPs are European.” [12:00]

• Financial Disparities:
  Ben McMahon criticizes the financial differences between the NBA and existing European leagues, pointing out the NBA's higher player salaries.
  “There are three players in Europe who make more than 3 million euros the whole year, and they all.” [17:35]

• Potential Impact on the NBA:
  Tim Bontemps questions the practicality of the NBA creating a rival European league instead of focusing on marketing existing stars abroad.
  “I would say nothing has changed on that front... the NBA is spending a lot of time on expansion.” [15:11]

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3. Debate on NBA’s On-Court Product: Efficiency Trap and Mid-Range Shots

A heated debate ensues about the NBA’s current offensive strategies, particularly the reliance on three-point shooting versus mid-range jumpers.

• Ben McMahon’s Stance:
  Ben passionately defends the current state of NBA offense, arguing that it represents the most entertaining era of basketball. He vehemently criticizes the notion that mid-range jump shots are out of favor, likening them to "toes" in terms of aesthetic appeal.
  “This is the best offensive basketball of any era in the history of the game. It is the most aesthetically pleasing basketball that has ever been played.” [20:20]
  “Mid range jump shots are like toes. There's a select few that are really pretty. What? Vast majority of them.” [21:31]

• Tim Bontemps’ Perspective:
  Tim counters by emphasizing that concerns about the league feeling too "cookie-cutter" despite diverse team styles, suggesting that the NBA should focus on promoting its star players rather than altering game mechanics in response to viewership trends.
  “The NBA should be focused on pushing and marketing these young star players and not worrying about things like getting rid of corner threes.” [27:51]

• Brian Windhorst’s Position:
  Brian introduces the "David Stern rule," advocating for betting on the beauty of the game and defending the current NBA product.
  “I've decided this is my mantra, the David Stern rule, which is bet on the beauty of the game.” [34:26]

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4. Phoenix Suns’ Unconventional Trade with Utah Jazz

The episode examines a unique trade wherein the Phoenix Suns exchanged their unprotected 2031 pick for three later picks with the Utah Jazz.

• Trade Breakdown:
  Brian explains the intricacies of the trade, detailing how the Suns traded away less valuable picks from Cleveland and Minnesota in exchange for a potentially higher lottery pick from Utah.
  “It’s like taking a 20 bill and breaking it into two fives and a 10... you got to pay the bellman $5 and the cabbie $10.” [37:02]

• Implications for the Suns and Jazz:
  Ben analyzes the Jazz's motivations, suggesting they're positioning themselves for high-reward picks, while Tim critiques the Suns' desperation move, comparing it to risky financial strategies gone awry.
  “This is the 2007 mortgage crisis with credit default swaps in the NBA on steroids.” [47:16]

• Long-Term Consequences:
  The discussion touches on the potential risks of such trades, including the possibility of teams ending up with fragmented rosters and diminished draft capital.
  “We’re going to have teams stuck in no man's land... getting left holding the bag.” [48:07]

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5. All-Star Game Selections and Controversies

The panel discusses the latest All-Star selections, spotlighting debates over player inclusions and omissions.

• Lamelo Ball’s All-Star Chances:
  They deliberate on Lamelo Ball's prospects of making the All-Star team, considering his performance and competition for backcourt positions.
  “It’s not surprising, possible closer we'll see what happens in the second game. But it's not surprising to see Victor step up...” [07:05]

• Jalen Brunson vs. Lamelo Ball:
  Ben expresses surprise over Lamelo Ball not being selected as a starter, emphasizing the depth in the Eastern Conference backcourt.
  “And that was a wild stat, right?... Well, I think he’s not going to make the All Star team.” [54:10]

• Fan and Media Influence:
  The conversation highlights how fan votes and media perception play significant roles in All-Star selections, sometimes overshadowing player performance.
  “I'm telling you, the league is a fun freaking league now... need to have some confidence that the star that I'm going to see is actually going to be on the floor.” [33:58]

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6. Dallas Mavericks’ Struggles Amidst Injuries

Ben and Tim provide updates on the Dallas Mavericks’ season, focusing on key injuries and their impact on the team's performance.

• Injuries to Luka Doncic and Clay:
  Brian reports on Luka Doncic’s ongoing calf issues and Clay’s ankle fracture, underscoring how these injuries have disrupted the Mavericks’ gameplay.
  “Luka is hoping to get back before the All Star break. We'll see about that.” [55:28]

• Trade Strategies and Roster Adjustments:
  The panel speculates on potential trades to bolster the Mavericks’ defensive capabilities, suggesting they may seek to acquire primary defenders to compensate for their weakened roster.
  “They miss having Derrick Jones Jr. as a guy who one through three, really I would say more so than one through four.” [58:27]

• Future Outlook:
  Ben anticipates that the Mavericks may have to navigate the play-in tournament due to their current standing and continued injuries.
  “They’re trying to stay in the top... but it’s not a guarantee, it's not a guarantee it’s going to be a lottery pick.” [45:11]

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7. Final Thoughts and Humorous Wrap-Up

The episode concludes with light-hearted banter, humorous exchanges about foot jokes, and a nod to upcoming topics.

• Humor and Camaraderie:
  The trio engages in playful teasing about foot aesthetics and inside jokes, showcasing their chemistry and making the discussion enjoyable.
  “I just don't see how… Mid range jump shots are the toes of basket.” [21:35]
  “Ben McMahon: I have my idea? The Ishbia rule...” [48:56]

• Closing Remarks:
  Brian Windhorst wraps up the episode by thanking the guests and hinting at future discussions, leaving listeners eagerly anticipating the next installment.
  “Thank you for watching listening to the Hoop Collective. We'll be talking to you next week.” [64:07]

---

Notable Quotes:

• Ben McMahon: “Mid range jump shots are like toes. There's a select few that are really pretty.” [21:31]

• Brian Windhorst: “I've decided this is my mantra, the David Stern rule, which is bet on the beauty of the game.” [34:26]

• Tim Bontemps: “The NBA should be focused on pushing and marketing these young star players and not worrying about things like getting rid of corner threes.” [27:51]

---

This episode offers a comprehensive look into the current NBA landscape, blending analytical insights with lively debates. Whether you're a die-hard fan or a casual observer, Windhorst and his guests provide a nuanced perspective on the league's evolving dynamics.

Transcript

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[Brian Windhorst]

Welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Friday morning here in Paris, but Thursday evening in New York City, where Tim Bontemps is a rare night with no game.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's true. Hello everybody.

[Brian Windhorst]

Joining us from Dallas, Texas is Ben McMahon.

[Ben McMahon]

Howdy.

[Brian Windhorst]

Partners usually have a little quip commentary.

[Ben McMahon]

All I got is it's, it's Friday morning. I want to get you to bed as soon as possible. So let's get. Fine.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's fine. We're not afraid to work here on the Hoop Collective. So I went to a NBA game tonight here in Paris and it was a ended up being a 30 point game. And Victor Wembanyama was absolutely, he described his night in French. I'm trusting the translation that I got as perfect the crowd. So first off, I would describe what's going on here right now as an All Star weekend built around one player around one person. And Chris Paul actually said when he was out there pregame and the game was about to start, it it felt like an All Star game because the court is lit with the theater lighting, with the heavy theater lighting like you get on an All Star Game. And there's just immense, you know, pageantry around the game. It is a huge media contingent, I honestly believe. And this could be a function of just credentialing for the what it takes to get a credential for the Olympics. This is the same arena that I was in for the gold medal game or the, you know, knockout. The media contingent is larger for this than it is. You know, there's people from all over Europe, reporters from all over Europe who've come and the league said that they had, they sold tickets. There's this capacity is 15,000 for this arena. So it's a good size arena for Europe. But for the two games, one on Thursday and one on Saturday, that they sold tickets to people from 53 different countries, wow, I wonder how many of those are bots that are buying for the resale market.

[Ben McMahon]

But I wonder how many of those were from Indiana because this was a Pacers home game.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh my God, was it not? Victor came out and said, you know, bonsoir, Perry, you know, good evening. Paris was like, you know how he, you know, we took the mic before the game and Rick Carlisle was like, I don't know what he said to that crowd, but it worked well. Yeah.

[Ben McMahon]

And he could have said pretty much anything you said. It was like an all star game.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Ben McMahon]

Doing some things you see in an all star game, like, oh, driving, throwing the ball off the glass and dunking it, but doing it like in the course of like legitimate competitive moments. Wimby had two different like multi possession sequences in this game that had me, a grumpy old man, guffawing while sitting on my couch.

[Brian Windhorst]

Was. That was one at the end of the third quarter.

[Ben McMahon]

Oh my God, Are you serious? The man, just. The man blocks a shot at the rim in one motion, grabs the rebound, leads the break. Boom. I think was Stefan Castle, you know, lob pass to him, seven foot five, blocking it, grabbing it. However many dribbles, probably like two dribbles, as long as strides are three, three or four, whatever, into a lob pass for a teammate. Comes back, blocks another shot. Those, the outlet pass, ends up getting it back on the right wing. Pump, fake, drive, kick to a teammate for an open three. And then what does he do on the next defensive possession? Blocks another shot. This one was like a freaking volleyball spike again. Ends up getting it outside the three point line. Pump fake drive kind of got stuck, kicks it out. I think it was Sohan drives right into a lob to Wimby with a finish. And it would have been a four straight block, but the fourth one was a goaltender. But like I've really never seen somebody dominate defensively and make plays on the offensive end for that long of a sequence before, like just flat out swatting everything and making plays on the other end. And in the first half he had one where crosses half court is a trailer, a catch and shoot three from the freaking logo from one of the twos in the pairs. 20, 25 swish. Next possession comes up and sets a screen, slips it, dives to the rim, catches dunks and then the. God, I don't remember what the possession was after that, but it was something ridiculous. And I don't remember what it was. I just remember it was three straight. Three straight things. I think it might have been a drive or whatever. Three straight possessions, three different ways to, to score. Just like the, the, the Ability of this guy to dominate the game in completely different ways on consecutive possessions is amazing. And then like the shot blocking, I mean, I, I don't want to say we've never seen anything like it because Akeem blocked 3,800 some odd shots to telling you this.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I mean, Bill Russell back in the day, we don't have stats, but one assumes that there was a lot of domination before wimby.

[Ben McMahon]

I thought Akeem's record would never be approached. I don't think that anymore.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, it's our research group, I think, said he's reached 400 blocks in 108 games. I mean, even I could do the math on that. I believe that's pretty for a game. So what I thought was interesting, you know, in the end of the third quarter, his. Probably his most mundane play that he had was at the buzzer. He had a putback, but it put him up 25. And the crowd, you know, gave him a standing ovation, sending him to the bench. And there's a scout that I know who's at the game. There was a French All Star game earlier this week for their teenagers. They sort of did a display for all the NBA personnel here. And so he was in town for that. So he went to this game and he sent me a text at the end of the third quarter. He's like, I got some breaking news for you. Or in big freaking 12 trouble in LA 28. Because I don't think he'd seen Victor play live before.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, by the way, I reminded myself, the third play in that sequence in the, in the first quarter. So 32 footer from the logo, dive to the rim for a dunk. Oh, just lead the fast break and you know, a look ahead, dimed at castle. The guy's seven foot five, jacking up 30 footers, dunking, leading the break and swatting everything. It's insane.

[Tim Bontemps]

We have seen over time that Victor is a guy who really lives up to the big stage and really embraces the moment. And obviously this is the first time we've seen two, two games played back to back in a city over in Europe like this. And at least in Paris, I think it's the first time anywhere. And as you said, Brian, this thing is clearly built around, hey, let's un. Let's, you know, bring our new European superstar over here and make a whole week about him in one of the big, you know, big glamour cities in the world and try to enhance the European market, which I think we'll get into some more conversation. About that in a minute. And it is not surprising. We'll see what happens in the second game. But certainly it's not surprising to see Victor step up in the first game and have an absolutely monster performance and delivery in every way, shape or form. Every way, shape and form. Like, we've already seen him do a bunch of times in his career, whether it's on Christmas Day, whether it's this summer in the Olympics. You know, he. He has a flair for the dramatic and an ability to step up in the moment, and it's one of the many reasons why he's got a chance to be the face of the league for a long time.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. You know, before the game, Adam Silver had a press conference, and he said, it's a pleasure to be a part of the league with Victor Wembanyama.

[Ben McMahon]

And that's one thing he said during that press conference that I agreed with. There's no.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, we'll get to that after the game. Rick Carlisle, a Pacers coach, was like, france should be very, very proud. I mean, like, this is a guy who's 21 years old. Like, I mean, you know, it's a. That's what I mean by, like, it's an all star game for one person, you know, like. And he delivers in it, like, you know, crazy. And, you know, it wasn't a particularly good NBA game. The Pacers had actually been one of the hottest teams in the league, I think.

[Ben McMahon]

Right.

[Tim Bontemps]

They won by 30. Of course, it wasn't a good NBA game. I mean, come on.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's not a good any game.

[Tim Bontemps]

One team won by 30.

[Ben McMahon]

It was a brilliant individual. Yes, the spurs played well as a team, don't get me wrong. But this was a brilliant individual performance. Oh, yeah, of course. I'm just.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Pacers, just so you know. And I. And I mean, we're over. You know, they had to travel and everything like this, but the Pacers, since the new year had been, like, the number two defense in the league that, you know, they surrendered 40, 140, and 45 in the third quarter.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

So it was an incredible show. You know, Victor said it was one of the top five performances he's ever had. Well, Christmas is on that list, and Victor is not. How about the 4020 game? This is the first time I've seen him.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, I'm not even sure Christmas is on that list. He had a nice game that day, but, I mean, he missed a ton of shots. Oh, my God. No, I'm. I mean, the guy's Got an impressive list. That's all I'm, I'm saying his numbers.

[Brian Windhorst]

In this game weren't unbelievable. He was a good game, numbers wise. But I think the reason he's saying that is just because everything was there.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It was a ho hum. 3011, 6 and 5.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. I mean, what's.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm saying it was, it wasn't ho hum, but like, you know, he's had a lot of games like that statistically.

[Ben McMahon]

And if it was a closer game, he would have stayed in and played more minutes down the stretch.

[Tim Bontemps]

Sure.

[Ben McMahon]

I mean, just the two sequences that I described was, I mean they were real time Victor W highlight reels where he's just crazy. Possession, possession after possession.

[Brian Windhorst]

You guys know what I say? We put no ceilings on victory. Women. Yama. This was, this was a night where that felt real.

[Ben McMahon]

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[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, so before the game, Adam Silver had a press conference. It was a long press conference, went about 45 minutes and it was a huge media contingent. I really, I can't believe how much media were there. And he was getting, he got questions from media from all over Europe and a few Americans. But really what the, what the focus was, you know, and I'm not, guys, I'm not sure. I mean, we do have quite a few listeners over here. I had a number of people in the last couple of days ask me how my voice was doing. Thank you. It's back, just back in time. But, you know, I'm not sure how much the American fan cares about the NBA's European plans. But Adam Silver, I mean, it's not official, but he's basically saying what they're intending to do, which is, and this is what he talked about in this press conference that the NBA is seriously considering or I would even so far go far as to say planning launching a European league.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, I honestly don't know that Americans care much. I would imagine that I, and you mentioned this in your story, but you obviously been on the ground there. I would imagine there's a lot of people in Europe who aren't especially thrilled by this. Like it's kind of saying, hey, you guys don't know what the hell you're doing with this league that you've had for decades and decades and decades. Let some professionals take over.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, the, the Euroleague, which is an 18 team, 18 team league which has teams from Spain to Israel, has been in existence since the 50s. You know, the NBA came in in the late 40s, so this has been around a long time. And the NBA used to partner with the Euroleague. That is obviously over for the time being. And you know, it hasn't been official. It could, it's possible won't happen, but the NBA is going to come for it. And Adam Silver basically said, actually, let me get the quote because I don't want to be flippant, but he said, while Europe continues to develop some of the very best players in the world, many of our most recent MVPs are European. We think the commercial opportunity has not kept pace with the growth of the game. And what we do at the NBA is we run leagues. We run the wnba, we have the basketball Africa League, we have the G League, we have a 2K video league. So we operate five different leagues. And we think we, and we think it's an expertise that we have. So basically what he's saying there is they got great players over here, but their league ain't getting it done. And we think we can make a bunch more money now. We can parse all this. What I would say is the most important thing, Bontemps, is that expansion indeed is about to come to the NBA. And just to be clear, these teams would not play the NBA teams, different leagues, maybe down the line there would be some sort of crossover play. But the expansion that's coming to the league, what the league is looking at, at expansion right now, the league is spending a lot of time on expansion. And by the way, the entire NBA front office was here. And I know it's Paris, I know people like to come to Paris, but this is a working trip. There was, it was like a finals or an all Star game. All of the brass, all of the top executives, all the top lieutenants were all here because they're all having meetings. But what it means, Bontemps, is that they're not really focused on NBA expansion. So if you are a Seattle or Las Vegas fan, I don't, I mean, I don't think that was off the table. It's not going to happen. But I think the timeline for that is definitely out because this is what the focus is.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I mean, I, I wouldn't quite phrase it that way. I would say that nothing has changed on that front. Right. Which is that, as we've said for a while now, the timeline for expansion in the NBA is going to be determined by what happens with the sale price. In particular, the Boston Celtics, who it seems like we're approaching, you know, we should know, could know as soon as this week. I think we're going to know fairly soon at least what the next stage of. I shouldn't say this week, but I think we're going to know fairly soon what the next stage of that bidding process is like. And if that number is, you know, north of $5 billion, I think that could very easily help along the expansion process. But look, like you said, when you, when you look at this NBA Europe league that Adam talked about today and that we've been reporting on for a while, you and I, I come back to the same question McMahon had before and it's the one I've had privately for a while, which is I just don't really understand what the point of this league is. I mean, the NBA would, I assume, say that, well, you know, we'll get a bunch of expansion fees for creating these new teams, but there already is a Euroleague that exists. There's already a bunch of teams that are playing high level basketball in Europe. And by the way, as anybody who's ever talked to anybody who's played in Europe or has covered European basketball knows, these are not the European soccer teams that are awash in cash all the time. There's all sorts of issues with these teams on a regular basis. So I am very curious to see what the ultimate financials are of this thing and whether it actually gets off the ground. Because I've struggled for the last while, now that we've reported on it, to really see what the logical path is to this league making sense for the NBA to do. But there's no question they're heavily interested in doing it. As they showed with having everybody there and the way they've talked about it and the way they're clearly spending a.

[Ben McMahon]

Lot of time thinking about it seems to me like the classic Aryan American sticking his nose where it doesn't need to be.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, look, they've obviously put a lot of time. And I don't. We don't need to, you know, break. Break it way down. I would just say just to understand the finances of Europe. There are, you know, the average NBA salary, the euro and the dollar are pretty close to one to one right now. Maybe it's a couple cents over for the euro.

[Ben McMahon]

96 cents to. To a dollar.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay. It's 96. I think it's 1, 1, 1. $1.04 per euro, I think is what.

[Ben McMahon]

You'Re saying a dollar's worth. I don't know. Whatever.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right. Anyway, the average NBA salary, literally the average salary is $12 million. There are three players in Europe who make more than 3 million euros the whole year, and they all. None of them make more than 3.7 Euros. Million.

[Ben McMahon]

I just like to.

[Brian Windhorst]

So, Just to. I mean, just to illustrate the finances of the two. I mean, not that you're comparing it, but the finances in Europe for these teams are just. It's not that, you know, it's. It's. There's not. Silver is basically saying that they're underperforming. And that may be true, but just to understand, like, this is what they're paying their top players.

[Ben McMahon]

I'd be much more interested in marketing the NBA in Europe than trying to build a rival league to the Euroleague. But, hey, what do I know? I don't have fancy degrees.

[Brian Windhorst]

I don't have all the understanding of everything. And I've spent a lot of time over here. I've spent time going to these games and everything like that. What I would say is, and I hate to be them saying, get off, you know, my lawn. But I would spend the time developing the NBA in America, you know, is, you know, to help that. Sure, sure. By The. By the way, the. You guys want to guess who the highest paid player in.

[Tim Bontemps]

I know, so I'm not gonna.

[Ben McMahon]

Is it, is it still Mirror Titch?

[Brian Windhorst]

No, it's not. That's a good guess.

[Ben McMahon]

He was when he went back.

[Tim Bontemps]

He's in the top.

[Brian Windhorst]

He's in the top 10. Who is it, Pontems?

[Tim Bontemps]

It's Sasha Vankov who just left. Who just left the Raptors after getting traded from the Kings to go over there.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, he, he got a buyout. His contract, I think.

[Tim Bontemps]

Walked away from the money.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes, right.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. To go back.

[Brian Windhorst]

He had a game like 2 weeks ago real quick, just as a. Sasha. He, he, he plays in Turkey, doesn't he? I think Pontemps.

[Tim Bontemps]

I believe he plays for Olympiacos now.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, he plays for Olympiacos. That's right. In Greece. This is an interesting little factoid and you can, you can Google it. It's worth googling just to see it real quick. He had a 45 point game two weeks ago and 45 points in a, in a FIBA style game is like worth 56 points, give or take. Because the shorter game and the style of the game.

[Ben McMahon]

Oh, you can't convert euros to dollars, but you can.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's right. Anyway, he had 45 points and I believe he dribbled like 12 times.

[Tim Bontemps]

He's a terrific.

[Ben McMahon]

He's a terrific shooter.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, he's a terrific shooter. Always has been.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

So it was, that was, that was. I actually watched that because it was.

[Tim Bontemps]

It was crazy speak at a three point shooting.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, yes. Okay, so this is what fired up McMahon. Go ahead, McMahon.

[Ben McMahon]

Okay, so I don't know who asked him the question. I don't know if it was an American or European, but it was an American. Okay. And the question was, commissioner, do you.

[Brian Windhorst]

Feel like the NBA has kind of reached an effect, reached an efficiency trap that baseball reached a few years ago where teams were behaving in a way where they were trying to maximize winning, but it ultimately hurt the product. And baseball took a number of measures to try to fix that. And if you feel it has. Does basketball does. Does the NBA need to do something small or big in that regard?

[Ben McMahon]

Part of my fringe. But what the bleep are you watching, folks? Don't listen to the blubbering idiots out there on the Internet and maybe even on your tv. This is the best offensive basketball of any era in the history of the game. It is the most aesthetically pleasing basketball that has ever been played. I do not understand why there's this fetish for mid Range jump shots. Like when did mid range jump shots become some kind of fun thing to watch? Let me just tell you. Mid range jump shots are like toes. There's a select few that are really pretty. What? Vast majority of them.

[Brian Windhorst]

That was a curveball I was not expecting.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, yeah.

[Ben McMahon]

How many ugly ass feet do you see?

[Tim Bontemps]

Those are all right. You're out of here. You're all right. Enough.

[Ben McMahon]

No, no, I'm just telling you that's the simple fact of the matter. That is for those of you who can't understand elementary school math. That's how you should translate. Well, listen Boogeyman, I'm not done. Do not interrupt the commissioner, okay? I told you I'm giving my answer. He gave us like gentlemanly lawyer.

[Tim Bontemps]

Just, just continue.

[Ben McMahon]

I'm going better call saul on that ass. Listen, if you don't think like this is the most talented, skilled, diverse set of superstars in the history of the world is because you're whining and not watching. Shay Gilda. I'll just go down the list, just the top scores. Shay Gildas Alexander. You love mid range jumpers. He has one of the most efficient. Oh yeah, efficient's a bad word. He's one of the best damn mid range jump shooters in the history of the game. The guy scores at every level. You want mid range jumpers and tough defense turn into Oklahoma City Thunder games. You have to go on league pass because we never put them on national tv including Christmas. But we'll probably fix that next season.

[Brian Windhorst]

They are. They've multiple Thunder games have been added to national team.

[Ben McMahon]

Don't interrupt the commission.

[Tim Bontemps]

You hate that we don't with this. Just don't make this a 15 minute Adam Silver.

[Ben McMahon]

Mute Bond temps. I have power at the commissioner's office.

[Brian Windhorst]

I really hate Tony Reali.

[Ben McMahon]

Just move along three pointers. I will give you a double fisted bird. Double that. That's how many times Giannis has made a three this season and he's averaging 3111 half points per game. You know you oh guys are just shooting all these long jumpers. Giannis is attacking the rim more ruthlessly, more relentlessly than anybody has ever done it. We're talking about a two time mvp. Finals mvp. Who's the most dominant paint attacker that we have seen. How about you don't like threes? You know who shoots the fewest threes in the NBA? The Denver Nuggets. Now if you live within like 600 miles of Denver, you can't watch them because our league pass is all jacked. Up. Maybe we should worry about that instead of Europe.

[Brian Windhorst]

Not that many people in Denver can watch him because of the altitude, the altitude network issue.

[Ben McMahon]

But Nicole Jokic, dude, this is a 7 foot, 280 pound Serbian blend of magic and bird who makes 30 point triple doubles look easy. The best paint touch we've ever seen. One of the best passers we've ever seen. This is a team that flies up and down the floor. I mean, just scoring all different kinds of ways. The guy averages 30 and scoring is not even what he does best. Now lamello ball. Okay, that's the fourth leading score. He does just jack up a bunch of crap playing pickup basketball. Whoever crosses half court with the ball has it. That's the exception though. He's Adam. The Celtics. Oh, the Celtics shoot way too many threes. The Celtics had the best offense in NBA history last year. You want to whine about how they shoot so many threes, you think there's jacking them up, Watch how they create threes. Like give credit to some skill and some scheme is the best era of offensive basketball we've ever seen. You sit here, you whine about analytics, I'm going to go out there and watch wimpy and you tell me who has more fun. That should have been the damn answer without bontemps interruptions.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, he has been waiting for this one.

[Tim Bontemps]

He has been waiting for this one. So I think, I think while I agree with everything you said, I think you're missing the point of what he is saying and the concern that he has, which I don't agree with, but I'm going to explain which let's go back a month ago to when Adam Silver talked in, in Vegas at the NBA cup and got asked basically the same question, are there too many threes in the NBA? He gave a long answer about it. But the end of the answer is the most important part. Whether there's some tweaks we should make. And my sense is I do think we should take seriously this notion of more diversity in offense to the extent that there's. It's not so much a three point issue, but that some of the audience, some of the, to some of the audience, some of the offenses start to look could he cut cookie cutter and teams are copying each other. I think that's something we should pay attention to. Now, now, hold on, hold on, hold on. I completely agree with everything you said. If David Stern had been sitting there giving the answer to the question, he would have said you aren't watching Denver and Oklahoma City and Milwaukee and Golden State and Cleveland and Boston and New York all play because they all play wildly differently and they have different styles. But that's not what the concern is, right? The concern is the NBA, which at times lives in an echo chamber, as we know, sees the online discourse about the league and sees the drops in television ratings for the league and is going, what is the problem with the league now? Just recently we saw the college football national championship game with Ohio State and Notre Dame have a drop in ratings. We saw the NFL divisional round of the playoffs have drops in ratings. There are drops and ratings across the board. That's because the TV industry is going through a decline in ratings. So to your point, McMahon, building your business around trying to address the combination of echo chamber concerns and the drop in television ratings by saying we need to potentially change the geometry of the basketball court, I think is a ridiculous way to go about this. It is not what I think the former commissioner and the LA commissioner would have done in this circumstance. And I would go back to what Brian said, where you have a league full of these young, exciting star players. The NBA should be focused on pushing and marketing these young star players and not worrying about things like getting rid of corner threes, which I think would be a disaster, that caused more problems and it's good. Or you know, doing these other like, you know, baseball type changes to the sport. Baseball had a problem where a generation of fans was bored with the product. I do not think that is the case with the NBA. I think the NBA is just dealing with the drop in television ratings that everyone else is. And if they react to that by changing the product on the court, I think that's going to be a very bad long term. It's got a very bad long term impact on the league and that should not be the place from which they are coming.

[Brian Windhorst]

Guess who else kind of agrees with you? Sounds like. So first off, to just put. I want to be. To be clear what Adam today, Adam Silver said today to this question. He said, the answer is, I'm not sure what we need to do.

[Ben McMahon]

Promote your stars. The product's not broken. The product is good. Promote it. That's what you need to do.

[Tim Bontemps]

And by the way, the NBA made a nice, I think, a good holistic change overall last year, allowing teams to be more physical defensively and creating a product that isn't just, hey, you can do whatever you want on the perimeter and if you get blown on, it's a foul. Like, I think that has been an improvement for the league across the board.

[Ben McMahon]

I. I just don't see how It's a cookie cutter league. The. The three best players. I'll throw again that.

[Brian Windhorst]

But.

[Tim Bontemps]

But that's where. That's where the product. That's where. That's where he should have to your point, defended the product and he instead was responding to the echo chamber.

[Ben McMahon]

Shea and Giannis and Joker and a healthy Luca are uniquely awesome players that there's like those guys are all so different. How is this a cookie cutter league? The way teams generate threes. Like you don't just like snap your fingers and get a three. You have to generate the threes. You're discrediting the coaching and the skill development. The fact that the Celtics put five guys out there that can all shoot it in space and share the ball and have, you know, usually three guys who can get downhill and attack that space and create like it's not just a math equation.

[Brian Windhorst]

So the, the guy who agrees with you sounds like is Mike Krzyzewski, who by the way has become as an in retirement from Duke, is now a special advisor to the NBA. And this is what Adam Silver said about this. He said something I've learned and this came directly from one of our advisors, Mike Krzyzewski. He said to me in our competition committee, be careful not to overreact. I mean sometimes as adjustments happen, teams may swing a little too far in one direction, then they may pull back. And then he cited that the Celtics recently have been pulling back in their threes. Although I say the sample is kind of small on that. Maybe they will not. But Shezewski agrees with you, McMahon. It sounds like Krzyzewski is like, let's not take away the corner three just yet.

[Ben McMahon]

Hey, I loved basketball growing up in the, in the 80s and 90s. It was not a better product. We don't want to go back to the 90s where games are 86 to 82 played at a glacial pace and guys are spotting up at 16ft. Seriously, go watch even like watch the Showtime Lakers go back and watch those games and you're gonna be like, dude, space out. Get out of the way. It is. The game is better.

[Brian Windhorst]

Get out of the way.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, yes, but that's why, that's why for as much as I enjoyed your impassioned argument, just outside of the bizarre foot divergence.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, the toe thing is potentially going to get lit up in the comments. I don't read the comments.

[Ben McMahon]

Mid range jump shots are the toes of basket.

[Tim Bontemps]

I understand that, but that's pretty ones.

[Ben McMahon]

But those Are the exceptions.

[Brian Windhorst]

How often is, is he, is he looking at toes? Bon, I don't want to know.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I don't know how often you.

[Ben McMahon]

Get on an airport and some guys wearing flip flops, you're like, damn, dude, like those toes ain't men. Those toes ain't meant for public consumption.

[Tim Bontemps]

I was in New York City for the Rex Ryan thing. I don't, I don't want to even get into any part of this. All I'm saying is if you look at what he's talking about, this is not about mid range jumpers. It's the league reacting to the drop in viewership and somewhere between having concern and panic about the main driver of all of its business, which is the now soon to be much larger television deal potentially being impacted in the future.

[Ben McMahon]

And what was that television deal?

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh, listen, it just got much bigger. I am, I'm on your side here. I agree with you completely. I think that the league should be just very focused on pushing its next generation players. Which by the way, let's go back to what we're talking about here, right? Why was this a week in Paris with Victor Wembanyama? Because the NBA awesome. Well, yes, he's awesome, but also LeBron James, who sometime in the next little while here is likely going to be voted a starter. But in the All Star game again, he is on the way out. Steph Curry's on the way out, Kevin Durant's on the way out. So Victor Wyama is sitting there as the guy who is probably going to be picked first to carry the mantle forward as the face of the league. So as Adam Silver saying, hey, we need to generate more revenue in Europe, well, gee, we're going to bring our bright young European star here for a week. We're going to plop him down and we're going to turn this into a one man show for a week where it's just, look how incredible this guy is. That is what the league needs to be doing in America all the time. They need to fix the league pass situation. They need to focus on promoting the.

[Ben McMahon]

Products, networks, the local TV situation.

[Tim Bontemps]

All of it. All of it. They need to, they need to fix all of that and they need to focus on promoting the product, not worrying about changing the court.

[Ben McMahon]

Basketball fans should not have to jump through hoops to watch basketball games. That, that's a ton bigger problem. But dude, I watch basketball every single night. Either I'm at a game or I'm sitting on the couch with two TVs fired up. And I'm telling you, the league is a fun freaking league now. There's problems, but it's not the pro, it's not the, the quality of play, certainly not the, the star level in this league. Shay, Gils, Alexander, amazing Joker, Giannis and Edwards, we can go on down the list, load management, that whole thing. And league's trying to get its arms around that. I think it's made a little bit of progress. That's a problem. You know, if I buy a ticket, I need to have some confidence that the star that I'm going to see is actually going to be on the floor.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, the 15,000 fans that bought tickets tonight saw the star. And before we move on, I just want to say this, and there's, you know, recordings of me talking about how I feel like the three point is a little bit out of balance. And I stand by that. But I'm also going to stand by this. And this is, I've decided this is my mantra, the David Stern rule, which is bet on the beauty of the game. 100 and I'm betting on the beauty. And that's, that's just, you know, that's.

[Ben McMahon]

That Adam Silver needs to hear that and repeat that. That should have been his answer to that. The game is not broken. Analytics is a. People don't. It's a boogeyman for all. Analytics is. By the way, analytics is not saying nobody should ever shoot mid range shots. I'm telling you, the OKC analytics department is not talking to Shay. Shay. Well, no, don't shoot. He's shooting 54% on those.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, one thing that Adam did say tonight, and I don't want to read his whole answer, but one concern that he voiced was he's talking to some players who have, have said, look, sometimes I've got a wide open shot, you know, at the rim or something and you know, I'm being taught that that's not the good shot.

[Ben McMahon]

Then that's either bad interpretation of analytics, bad coaching, or a player who doesn't know what the hell he's being told.

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean, McMahon is, McMahon is strong on all this. I'm. I mean, no, seriously, have you talked.

[Ben McMahon]

To a coach that I want my players passing up dunks to kick it out for a 3? No one's coaching that. That's not happening There.

[Brian Windhorst]

There's some actions that imply that that's being coached. We, I mean, we don't see it every night, but we do see guys pass up open shots.

[Ben McMahon]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this, since.

[Brian Windhorst]

You'Re New to H and R Block. We'll look at your returns from the last three years for any money your last guy might have missed for free.

[Ben McMahon]

I could get money back from last year.

[Tim Bontemps]

You could.

[Brian Windhorst]

We'll find any mistakes. Could have really used that two years.

[Ben McMahon]

Ago when I dated that mistake for five months.

[Brian Windhorst]

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[Ben McMahon]

Switch to H and R Block and get a free Second look review.

[Brian Windhorst]

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[Ben McMahon]

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[Brian Windhorst]

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[Ben McMahon]

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[Brian Windhorst]

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[Ben McMahon]

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[Brian Windhorst]

Factor is dietitian approved. Chef prepared and you plated. Pretty smart, huh? Refresh your routine and eat smart with factor. Learn [e-mail] okay, your point has been made, McMahon, and that is that you are looking at a lot of feet. There was a trait.

[Ben McMahon]

I'm very selective about the feet that I look at and I'm right now is just help me out.

[Brian Windhorst]

Passed out Jackson's on the floor.

[Tim Bontemps]

Brian, change the topic. Change the topic.

[Brian Windhorst]

We had a trade since we since we last podcast we had a trade and that trade involved draft picks. And it was the most unique trade for a draft pick trade that I can remember where the Phoenix Suns traded their 2031 pick unprotected for three picks with the Utah Jazz. And I actually want to to point this out because I didn't completely understand what the Jazz exactly the Jazz motivation here. The Jazz own the Cleveland Cavaliers picks in 25, 27 and 29 that is a product of the Donovan Mitchell trade. They own the Minnesota Timberwolves picks in 25, 27 and 29 from the Rudy Go Bear trade. And they own the Los Angeles lakers pick in 27, which I think is a product of protected top four protected. And that was.

[Ben McMahon]

That was the Russell salary.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, Mike Conley.

[Brian Windhorst]

Mike Conley. Of course they didn't get Mike Conley in that trade. But anyway, free agency, baby. That was the. I would. You could argue that was the D'Angelo Russell trade if you're a Laker fans.

[Ben McMahon]

Right. But. But the Jazz got it giving up Conley and correct eating Russell's salary.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Jazz also have their own picks in those years 25, 27, 29. So they had a situation where they had these years where they had three or four picks, and, you know, it's not ideal. And so by giving this three for one, they get a pick farther out. So they push some of those picks at least, you know, they push it out a little bit, and they protected themselves because what they gave the. What they gave the Suns was the worst pick of all those in each of those years, except in 27, where they didn't even include the Laker pick. They did include their pick in this year's draft. Like, it's almost certainly going to be the Cavs pick that goes to the Suns. Right now, the Cavs have the best record by a game or so. And if it's not. If The Cavs aren't 29, aren't 30, they're probably going to be 29, maybe 28. But they did put the Minnesota pick and the Jazz pick in there. I think the Jazz pick is safe. Yeah, but.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, not by. Maybe not by then. Let's see what happens.

[Ben McMahon]

No, we're saying this year.

[Brian Windhorst]

No, this year.

[Tim Bontemps]

This year was just Minnesota and Cleveland. It was just those two picks.

[Brian Windhorst]

I think it was Utah's.

[Ben McMahon]

Whatever. It doesn't.

[Tim Bontemps]

Doesn't matter. The pick this year is going to be the 29th or 30th pick in the draft. Probably could have just been the Cleveland pick.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. And so I think there was sort of a belief that, as they say in the. In the financial media, they say this is. This was deal heat. You know, this was an indication that there was another deal potentially for Jimmy Butler. Like, why would you do this trade, you know, break down the one pick for the other three if you didn't have another. Something else? And, you know, as far as I know, and I think Shams has reported the same thing, that's not true. There very much could be a deal.

[Ben McMahon]

It's deal. It's deal kindling. But they still got to build the logs on that thing.

[Brian Windhorst]

Good job. This is. That's much more rational than where you've been going.

[Ben McMahon]

So they're just dipping their toes in the trade market.

[Brian Windhorst]

This is the greatest. Just terrible. Bon temps. This is a, you know, this is a trade like I've never seen before. What I would say is what I would compare it to. And I've said, is it. And I'm sure I'm not the only person to say this, but it's like taking a 20 bill and breaking it into two fives and a 10, and you got to, you know, you got to pay. You got to Tip the bellman $5 and you got to tip the, the guy at the airport $5 and you got to tip the cabbie $10. That's all fine. They're all lesser than to make up the hole. But my, my thing is, I don't think a $20 bill is getting them Jimmy Butler. I think they need a $50 bill or $100.

[Tim Bontemps]

This, I would argue this is like going to the bank and saying, hey, listen, I need $50. And they say, how many euros we'll give you? You have €45. And they'll say, all right, we'll give you two twenties and a ten and several years from now you're going to give us 100. You say, okay, sure, I'll do it because I need the $50 right now. I got to have the $50. So I'll give you 100 down the road to take the 50.

[Ben McMahon]

Now.

[Tim Bontemps]

Now look, I'm not going to say there's no chance that they get a deal done because it's the NBA and we've seen weird things happen. However, Justin Zanuck, who we all know and is a very bright guy, went on the Jazz Thunder broadcast, GM of.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Jazz, just to be the Jazz.

[Tim Bontemps]

Just to be clear for listeners, and talked about the trade. And Justin Zanuck said, look, we had a pick, we had three picks that we gave away that could not be the best pick in the draft, and we got a pick back that can be the number one pick in the draft. And he went on to say, I think this is the most valuable asset in the market right now. I would agree with that. If you look at where the Phoenix Suns are at, it's not a guarantee that the pick is going to be the number one pick. It's not a guarantee it's going to be a lottery pick. But if you look at where the Phoenix Suns are at, where they don't own their pick for the next seven years and for the next six years, they are guaranteed to have a pick somewhere in probably, well, they're in the.

[Brian Windhorst]

Draft, they do own their pick, but they don't control it. In other words, it can be swapped.

[Tim Bontemps]

They don't control their pick. Fair. I was, I meant that they don't control their picks.

[Ben McMahon]

They torched their draft capital for through 2031 now.

[Tim Bontemps]

Correct. So perhaps they'll be a good team in 2031, but whether they are or not, it's a massive high upside swing. And by the way, every smart team in the league was going, hey, the Suns are really desperate to try to make a deal. This 2031 pick is sitting out there. We should go try to get that.

[Ben McMahon]

Pick, including the Oklahoma City Thunder. And this is kind of out of the Presti playbook. It's not. You hadn't pulled off this exact, exact kind of a deal. But like Presti has done the, hey, we've got more picks than we can use right now. Let's push them back and sacrifice quantity for swings at high, high quality. And the Jazz still have 11 picks over the next seven drafts with, by the way, a team that the roster is more than, more than half the roster right now is college age. They didn't need a third first round pick in this draft. It's much better for them to push it back. And again, this is a swing that I'm sure there. I don't know this for a fact, but I will wager that their projections of the Suns in 2031 is that this will be a lottery type of pick potentially. And I mean Zanik said it potentially an extremely high lottery pick.

[Tim Bontemps]

Sure, it's a big, it's a big swing. It's a big swing. And for it, like you said, for a team that had a ton of stuff already. And again, this is a trade you make if you're the Phoenix Suns, if you're way in the hole at the table and you're going back for more. Right. Like this is a team, I saw them last night. You know, they won handily against the Nets, but even against the Nets like they were, they kind of wheezed their way to that game. They were up a little bit in the first half and then pulled away as the game went on. But they're, they're just so behind the eight ball in so many ways with this roster. And by making this trade, it's a clear admission that, well, we're going to the bank for the last thing we can possibly get and then we're going to turn around and do whatever we can to try to improve the roster between now and the trade deadline in a couple weeks. But fellas, I mean, you look at this team right now and They've got the 29th pick in this year's draft now probably or 30 from Phoenix or from Cleveland. They've got the Nuggets second round pick, which ain't going to be very valuable. They got nothing else they could trade besides these three late picks. And they're sitting in 10th place as of right now in the West. This is not like some team that's in the top six and locked into trying to get home court advantage. They're trying to stay in the top.

[Ben McMahon]

10 short of the Suns is a popular strategy. I mean, hey, the Rockets did it last summer and are very happy. The Rockets gave Brooklyn back a swap and a pick over these next couple years to get a boatload, you know, all the KD to get two picks.

[Tim Bontemps]

And two swaps on from the Suns.

[Brian Windhorst]

Which by the way, that was a very unusual, I mean it was very, the strategy was very clear, but that was an unusual trade. And so what you're seeing here is people falling all over themselves. As you said, to short the Suns, there's a line to short the Suns. Yeah.

[Ben McMahon]

And the Rockets, when they did that, they didn't imagine. Well, maybe, I don't know. I don't think they anticipated getting a lottery pick from Phoenix this year. But that's absolutely in the cards now. And the Suns are desperately trying to make sure it doesn't happen. And they feel like they've got to move heaven and earth and convince Beal to accept a no trade clause and find a team willing to take them to make that happen and bring in 36 year old Jimmy Butler.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, listen, the other thing now Jimmy.

[Ben McMahon]

And Jimmy and KD will both be in their 40s when this pick, you know, when this pick comes up for.

[Tim Bontemps]

The Jazz, it's just, it's a desperation move. Whatever way you want to look at it, it's clearly a desperation move by Phoenix. And when you look at the situation that the Suns are in right now, and you look at the situation the Milwaukee Bucks are in right now, where they don't have control of their pick for years and years in a small market and obviously they have yon city coupo. They want a title, they're trying to win another one. But like Brian knows, Cavs corner Stepien rule was created in the 1980s because Ted Stepien, the owner of the Cavs, traded four first round picks in a row to the Dallas Mavericks. And the rule was created to prevent teams from not having control of their pick for seven, eight years in a row. Specifically because the NBA didn't want a situation where a team was stuck in no man's land, had nothing to do with their team for a long period of time, and now it's all how.

[Ben McMahon]

The swap became a popular thing.

[Tim Bontemps]

Exactly. Because you had to find a way to fill the gap. Right. Because you could only trade first every other year. Well, now you could trade your control your draft for seven years by doing the swaps. You just basically nuke the step in rule.

[Brian Windhorst]

I would argue that if the NBA needs to examine something that's being maybe overcooked, it's not the three, it's the trading away of your draft capital.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes. So now like again, let's go back to Phoenix. Phoenix has double swapped.

[Ben McMahon]

I was going to say Phoenix has. Phoenix has swapped their swaps. They're, you know, I mean they've, all their picks are gone.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean not ISB owned. Owns a mortgage company. This is the 2007 mortgage crisis with credit default swaps in the NBA on steroids.

[Ben McMahon]

And you got the Rockets and you got the Jazz just waiting for that bill to come due among other teams.

[Tim Bontemps]

And look, I don't know if the league's going to change something on it or not, but like the next will.

[Brian Windhorst]

Have some of the stuff too, by the way. Like they still have it. Yeah, they have some of it.

[Tim Bontemps]

And you look around the league and there's a handful of teams that have the vast majority of these picks and then there's a whole bunch of teams that just don't have any. And it's made it more complicated to do business and it's put some of these teams in a position where, you know, there's just sort of. We've seen this cycle where teams like the Nets and we'll see what happens with these other teams. Oh well, we'll trade all our picks and we'll burn the house down and then we'll turn around and trade our stars later if we have to and get a bunch of picks back.

[Brian Windhorst]

But that's what the Nets did.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's, that's what I said. The Nets did that. But at some point we're going to see one of these teams get in this position and they're going to get left holding the bag with like, oh, they get one first back or something and then they're just going to be.

[Brian Windhorst]

Stuck in no man's we're also going to. So you know, the catastrophe in the last 20 years is the, the Nets who traded everything and then ended up tanking because their owner gave up and they watched multiple top five picks go Brown.

[Ben McMahon]

Here's the foundation of a championship team, right?

[Brian Windhorst]

And so you know, that's what, that's the worst part is when you're, when you, when you're that. So I don't know mentioned the Mavericks.

[Ben McMahon]

I got an idea here what they got to come up with an an ish be a rule to get all this stuff under control. You call it the ISHB rule and Then since the league's trying to create.

[Brian Windhorst]

All this revenue, they call it the Stepien rule. After Stepien sold and he was, can.

[Ben McMahon]

I have my idea? The Ishbia rule. And then you sell a sponsorship to it. The Ishba rule. Presented by Rocket Mortgage.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, my God.

[Ben McMahon]

Hey, what would Dan Gilbert pay to.

[Tim Bontemps]

That was a very deep cut.

[Ben McMahon]

What would people listen to? Hoop Collective? I bet at least.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes, I know.

[Ben McMahon]

Analytically, I bet 76 point he's back on analytics. Oh, God.

[Brian Windhorst]

I would just say that I remember the first time I met Mattish Pia, who by the way, I like. And he had done the Durant trade. And a few weeks later I was in Phoenix and I went to a game and he was there and I went to meet him and I said to him, you know, it's amazing. Like, you know, you could own this team for another 20, 25 years and not make a trade as big as you made your first, you know, six hours of the ownership owner. And he fundamentally rejected that premise. Well, he's like, no, we're going to make a lot of big trades. I'm going to make. I'm going to make big trades all the time. And I was like, okay, you know, cool. And like, you know, to his credit, that is how he's operated. He's like, yeah, you know, he has.

[Ben McMahon]

A chronic case of new owner syndrome.

[Brian Windhorst]

I really like him. And, you know, there are, There are people who love.

[Ben McMahon]

Would love an owner like game under my guidelines, but he is quite a character.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, he played college basketball, won a national championship.

[Ben McMahon]

Just so he won a national championship as a member of a college basketball team. Yes.

[Brian Windhorst]

He was on the. He was on the roster. I didn't see you on that roster.

[Tim Bontemps]

Let's just think about it this way. He hasn't owned two years.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's true.

[Tim Bontemps]

He hasn't owned the team for two full years. And they've made a lot of moves.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, and maybe, maybe he's like, we keep figuring out how to do these moves and we'll keep figuring it out. In 2031, we'll figure it out. You know, every year you can you get access to another.

[Ben McMahon]

The counterpoint to that would be. You haven't figured it out real well so far, buddy.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, listen, but you know what? We operate in the world where we analyze and talk strategy. That's the world we operate in. If we all were really good players, we would probably be talking about fundamentals of the jump shot. We're not really good players. I thought that was on a tee for McMahon. I thought he was.

[Tim Bontemps]

I was waiting for him to. I was waiting for him to shoot.

[Brian Windhorst]

So I would just say that I.

[Ben McMahon]

Could definitely post a bishop.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's true. You could. I'll bet you could score on him. Although he probably would. He probably believe he could shut you down.

[Ben McMahon]

He. No, he's a flopper. He'd flop. I've seen him. He did it to Joker.

[Brian Windhorst]

Forgot about that. That happened in the first couple of months.

[Ben McMahon]

Joker teed up.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh my God. That's not even the top last playoff.

[Ben McMahon]

Win for the Sun.

[Brian Windhorst]

I would just say that is that.

[Tim Bontemps]

Now that is a wild. That is a wild stat, right?

[Brian Windhorst]

Last year was a rough year for them in the playoffs. I would just say that there are a lot of fans, maybe not a preponderance of fans, but a lot of fans who love their guy going for it.

[Ben McMahon]

No. 6 to 29 fans on average. Love it.

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean, if you're a Utah Jazz fan, are you excited that you got the Suns 30, 20, 31 pick, or would you rather have your team, you know, fighting all out to try to make the playoffs this year, which is what this is?

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I mean that's, that's really not, that's really not the right way to frame it though, because.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I believe that's not the way to frame it if you're owning a team. But.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, but even if you're a fan of the team, like, it's like saying, it's like saying to a seven year old kid, would you like to have ice cream for dinner every day for a week or not? The answer is, yeah, of course that people would rather have the team be good right now. But that's not, that's just not a realistic way to look at this. Even if you're a fan, would you, the question should be, would you rather have your team be good at and consistently good for a long time or would you rather be good for two minutes? Because that's what we're talking about here.

[Brian Windhorst]

Some people would say as a, as a fan of the newly crowned national champions in the college football playoffs.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes. That they won a championship.

[Ben McMahon]

And that's Ohio State getting their two minutes of fame here. Give me a break, dude.

[Tim Bontemps]

This is not a, this is not a, this is not a commentary on Kevin Durant. It's just a statement of where the teams are at. The Nets traded everything they had nailed down to get Kyrie Irving, Kevin Durant and James Harden. They won one playoff series. The Suns have done the same thing to get Kevin Durant and Devin Booker and Bradley Beal. They've won one playoff series. They may not win another playoff game.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, they haven't won anything with Beal.

[Tim Bontemps]

If you win the title, as you have always said, you never have to say you're sorry, the flag flies forever, then it's great. But if you're going to go all in like this, you better win because if you don't, you're going to be a lot of trouble. And by the way, because this is another favorite topic for McMahon. The All Star starters in the east have been announced and Lamello Ball is starting or not.

[Ben McMahon]

And he's not and he shouldn't be.

[Tim Bontemps]

He is not starting Jalen Brunson. The only real drama was so that Jalen Brunson would get the second guard spot. Mitchell. And he did.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

Mitchell Donovan. Mitchell Jason Tatum, Yaseen A Coupo, Carl Towns and Jalen Brunson.

[Ben McMahon]

Wendy, were you about to make a Zaza Patchouli a joke?

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, that's why they split the vote up to give the media and, and you know, Zaza Patchouli almost got voted in as a starter one year in Dallas.

[Ben McMahon]

I just talked to Zaza the other day.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, how's he doing?

[Ben McMahon]

He's doing great, man. He's got mellow.

[Tim Bontemps]

Is also averaging 30 points a game.

[Brian Windhorst]

I wouldn't, I know. But he's not an all Star.

[Tim Bontemps]

Quite put him in the Lamello the, the category.

[Brian Windhorst]

He's not going to make the All Star team.

[Ben McMahon]

So that, that, that's going to actually be very interesting whether he, I'm tell.

[Brian Windhorst]

You, I, I'll tell you what. He didn't, he didn't get the media or the fit or the, or the player vote.

[Ben McMahon]

Right.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm doubting he's getting the coach's vote.

[Tim Bontemps]

So I'm just, it is interesting because Jalen, I'll be curious to see what the final ballot is because Jalen was fourth behind Damian Lillard in the last round of voting and for that to be 50 of the vote and him to end up as a starter, it means he got a ton of player and media votes or he leapfrog game or both.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, just. Did we read the 5 East voters yet or east starters yet? Okay. And, and again, I, I, I think these are the five guys who deserved it.

[Tim Bontemps]

They only, the only question was whether it would be Jalen or Jalen Dame or Lamello as the, the other guard. So the other, the west will be out in a minute after I believe by the time we're done. Talking about the Bulls and Mavs, we'll know.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I want to talk about the Mavs because they got dealt with another blow to this season. They had such an incredible run in the last season and this season has had just from Luca getting dinged up in training Camp Onward McMahon. It's just, it's just not going their way. The latest being Derek Lively with a fracture in his ankle two to three months. The guy is a vitally important player for them.

[Ben McMahon]

I mean, he's their third most important player. No question. This one's a big time kick. You know, Luka's hoping to get back before the All Star break. We'll see about that. You know, the, and, and they've taken on a ton of water since l went out. You know, going back to Christmas when he was hurt. They've lost 11 to 15 now. You know, the schedule is not very forgiving over these next few weeks. Like it's, it's, you know, they've, they've fallen into the bottom half of the, of the playing picture in the, in the Western Conference and it's, it's tough. You know, the one like thing I will point out, and obviously this was a team last year that made two major trades. Picking up Daniel Gafford, picking up P.J. washington. So that was part of them turning their season around. But even after the trade deadline, you know, it gets forgotten about. But, you know, this team lost, I'm finding right here in late February, early March, this team lost five out of six games and was, you know, did not look anything like a contender. Boom, flipped the switch and that's when they went on that 162 run and everything came together. Lively, though, missed time during that run. You know, he had a sprained knee towards the end of last year, missed the last two or three weeks of the regular season, was able to come back for the playoffs and play a major role. So I guess the point is last year wasn't like it was smooth sailing for them, you know, before the final quarter of the season.

[Brian Windhorst]

True.

[Ben McMahon]

That's, you know, and it's now, this is rockier, don't get me wrong. It's, and I don't know if you're Nico Harrison, who's always made a significant trade before the trade deadline. Three years, three times or three years, four trades, really, I don't, I don't think you can react to your medical situation because then you, you're probably putting yourself in position. You're going to end up playing whack a mole, creating one massive void to fill, one that might be more temporary. But you know, again they're, they're taking on water and the schedule just gets tougher. And it's not like I don't think it's reasonable to think Luke is just going to come back to the rescue and they've got to be careful making sure he's in decent condition. They're not putting too much on him because the last thing you want is for him to come back and for him to re aggravate that calf injury that he's had four times in four years now.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I had two questions for you McGren about the Mavs. One was to your point, let's set aside. I obviously agree with you they shouldn't react to the injury stuff. If they are going to be aggressive like they have been under Nico Harrison typically, what do you think makes sense for them to try to do in terms of changing the roster like positionally. And I've also noticed of late that it seems like they've gone away from Clay at the end of games on more than one occasion, which we've obviously talked about going back to the summer. Is that sort of a gradual shift toward that happening on a regular basis now that we're after the year?

[Ben McMahon]

Listen, Clay closing is a, is a game by game kind of a situation now and obviously everybody wants Clay back or wants Luca back. Clay, by the way, is out himself right now with a, an ankle. They're playing in Oklahoma City tonight. Second end of the back to back. He'll have missed both games. But Clay really needs Luca back because his numbers are much better with Luke on the floor, which makes sense. Like he's the guy who needs looks created for him and Luke is as good at creating open threes for teammates as probably anybody in the league. You know, it's no secret like they've been calling around and kind of exploring a way to get that primary defender type of guy. They've put that on PJ Washington this year and it's probably asking too much. You know, I think Najee Marshall's been good for them but they've missed having Derrick Jones as a guy who one through three, really I would say more so than one through four. But one through three, like Derrick Jones Jr. Would take the toughest assignment and would, you know, just compete there. They miss having that on ball defensive presence. So I think if the Mavericks do something in the trade market, that's the most likely scenario and you know, we'll, we'll see if there's something out There, that makes sense for them.

[Brian Windhorst]

There's a lot of time left in the season is what I would say about the Mavericks. And you know, if you don't have the number one seed, which you're not getting anyway, you're going to have to do some something on the road anyway.

[Ben McMahon]

So they, they were on the road to start every single series last year.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's true.

[Ben McMahon]

Certainly not ideal. You know, they were playing well before Luke went down and you know, they've had a lot of misfortune since then and you know, again, I don't think there's gonna like this is going to be a sudden turnaround starting right now. And I mean there's, I would say it's, it's pretty likely they're gonna have to fight their way in via the play in.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, listen, the other thing, the other thing you're looking at if you are a team like Dallas, right. We just talked about how the Suns are all over the place. We'll see what happens with them over the next couple weeks. Seth Curry and Shea are starting in the backcourt. Steph Curry, the Warriors in a lot of trouble. They just lost last night in Sacramento. We'll see what happens in their game tonight against the Bulls. The Bulls are coming in rested. They're playing the second night of the back.

[Brian Windhorst]

They're in free. They're in free fall big time.

[Tim Bontemps]

Listen, Steve Kerr played G.I. santos and Quentin Post down the stretch. Quentin Post, if you haven't heard from it's of him. It's fair. He got drafted late in the second round this year. And Steve talked openly about the fact that they just need more spacing on the court for Steph. And if you watch, I watched the final few minutes of that game, the, the Kings essentially just double teamed Steph the second he got to half court, made him pass the ball and the warriors had no answer for that. So if you're the Mavericks and you're looking at this, you're saying, all right, Golden State's in trouble, Phoenix is in trouble. Yes, we're banged up, but if we could just tread water. It's not like they, I don't think they're in a ton of danger of falling out of the 10. And as long as they're in the 10, obviously you want to be higher. But if they are healthy come playoff time, as you said, McMahon, they're not going to be afraid of going on the road to play a playoff series. They did just fine doing it last year.

[Ben McMahon]

No, and listen, Thunder Mavs, I think is Going to be a really good rivalry over time. Started last year. I'm not saying anybody's scared of anybody on either side. I'm just saying if you're the Thunder and you win 70 games, have the Mavs as the 8 seed as your reward, that, like, that's probably not the one that they would draw if they had a choice. I'll put it like, no, no, for sure.

[Tim Bontemps]

And just to fill out the rest of the west starters, no surprise, Steph, Shea, jokic, Durant and LeBron James in the All Star Game for the 21st time in his career.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, those were very strongly the voters choices. The fan vote, by the way, the starter thing, I'm. I'm not even gonna. I think I'm gonna pass a rule here that we're not going to talk about the All Star Game. Like, even while it's going on, we may talk about the.

[Ben McMahon]

I'll be on a tropical island.

[Brian Windhorst]

That'll be great for you because there's really. There's going to be 15. There's actually going to be 20 starters because there's going to be a bunch of rookie slash sophomores. There's going to be 15 starters because there's going to be three different teams made up of these guys.

[Tim Bontemps]

The interesting thing about today was, as you said, this was the best chance for Lamelo Ball to make the team. We'll see if he does make it as a reserve, but he had a better chance of making it with the fan vote, him leading the fan vote than he did with the coaches getting him in, probably because frankly, like we talked about, we did the rosters a couple weeks ago. The strength in the east is in the backcourt, and there's a ton of options to choose from in the backcourt that are going to make it challenging for him to get in even with.

[Brian Windhorst]

Jackson wants you to take photos of your favorite feet from the beach when you're on the island.

[Ben McMahon]

Oh, my God.

[Tim Bontemps]

We're gonna have a whole new crew of people watching.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, God. What are you doing? Oh, my God.

[Tim Bontemps]

We're gonna have a whole new crew of people watching on YouTube now.

[Brian Windhorst]

You know.

[Ben McMahon]

I got bad toes. I got.

[Brian Windhorst]

There was. McMahon just showed his toe.

[Ben McMahon]

My right big toes are. It's in tough.

[Brian Windhorst]

This is on camera. And, you know, they. They would tell you, you know, never, never give your feet away for free. Okay. Thank you to Jackson. Thank you to Jackson, our producer. Thank you to Bontemps, who just painted his. His. His podcast room there and got back in despite the fumes. Yes, I'd like to say thank. You know, McMahon had great takes in this pod, but I'm not sure I should thank him.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, you should not.

[Brian Windhorst]

I will thank him. Thank you, McMahon. Thank you for watching listening to the Hoop Collective. We'll be talking to you next week.

[Ben McMahon]

How did you say that French thing again?

[Brian Windhorst]

Bonsoir.

[Ben McMahon]

No, no, the. The adios amigos version.

[Brian Windhorst]

Au revoir, mon ami.

[Ben McMahon]

Au revoir, mon ami. And adios amigos. Oh. In case you didn't know, these young men are driven.

[Tim Bontemps]

Quite remarkable.

[Ben McMahon]

Magnificent and unmistakable. These are the prodigies, the savants, the ones we've been waiting for. And they are not asking for you to pass the baton. They are methodically planning the perfect moment to take it. A new generation of Toyota drivers are here, and they want you to know one thing. You can't stop my drive.