What’s Wrong In Cleveland? Lakers Stumble, Knicks In Trouble Without Brunson?

Summary

Episode Summary: “What’s Wrong In Cleveland? Lakers Stumble, Knicks In Trouble Without Brunson?”

Release Date: March 24, 2025
Hosts: Brian Windhorst, Tim Bontemps, Marc Stein
Podcast: Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective

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1. Introduction

In this episode of Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective, hosts delve into the tumultuous landscape of the NBA as teams navigate late-season challenges. The discussion kicks off early on a Sunday morning, with insights spanning from the Chicago Bulls' resurgence to the Cleveland Cavaliers' ongoing struggles, the Los Angeles Lakers' surprising stumble, and the New York Knicks grappling without their star guard, Jalen Brunson.

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2. Chicago Bulls’ Resurgence and Josh Giddey’s Stellar Performance

The conversation begins with a focus on the Chicago Bulls, highlighting their recent dominance over the Los Angeles Lakers. Josh Giddey emerges as a pivotal figure in the Bulls' late-season turnaround.

Josh Giddey’s Impact:

• Josh Giddey delivered an impressive performance on Saturday night, achieving what is described as "maybe the 15th triple double in NBA history" (01:30).

Statistical Breakdown:

• Since the trade deadline, Giddey has been averaging 20.3 points, shooting 51% from the field, and an astounding 50% from beyond the arc.

Marc Stein notes, “Josh Giddey was messing around on maybe the 15th triple double in NBA history” (01:30), emphasizing his critical role in the Bulls' success.

Bulls’ Strategy and Draft Picks:

• The Bulls have been actively rebuilding, trading to secure their own draft pick, which is now projected to land them at the 10th spot in the draft.
• Tim Bontemps raises concerns about the Bulls' long-term plans, questioning the sustainability of their current strategy amid a 9th place standing (05:30).

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3. Los Angeles Lakers’ Unexpected Struggles

The Los Angeles Lakers, traditionally a powerhouse, have faced an unexpected downturn despite having their full lineup available for the first time in a month.

Performance Highlights:

• The Lakers were convincingly beaten by the Bulls with a score of 146-146 (03:26).
• Brian Windhorst points out, “The Lakers had their whole lineup for the first time in like at least a month,” but their performance didn’t reflect their lineup strength (01:26).

Key Player Performances:

• Luka Hachimura scored 29 points in the first half, yet neither he nor LeBron James delivered standout performances.
• The Lakers have endured a taxing schedule, playing their seventh game in 10 days, which has likely contributed to their dip in form (09:34).

Upcoming Challenges:

• The Lakers are embarking on a four-game road trip against formidable Eastern teams like Orlando and Indiana, posing significant challenges to their standing (10:13).

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4. Cleveland Cavaliers’ Struggles Without Jalen Brunson

A central theme of the episode is the Cleveland Cavaliers’ current predicament, exacerbated by the absence of their key player, Jalen Brunson.

Injury Impact:

• Jalen Brunson sustained an injury and will be evaluated in a week, casting uncertainty over his return (35:19).

Performance Decline:

• Without Brunson, the Cavaliers have lost four consecutive games, with their star guards, Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland, underperforming since the All-Star break.
• Tim Bontemps highlights, “Donovan Mitchell shooting 39% from the field and 28% from three on eight attempts per game” (24:25), underscoring the offensive struggles.

Defensive Issues:

• The Cavaliers’ defense, particularly against three-point shooting, has faltered, placing them 30th in the league during the recent stretch (23:56).

Future Outlook:

• The hosts express concern over whether this performance slump is a temporary blip or indicative of deeper issues within the team’s core dynamics heading into the playoffs (27:50).

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5. New York Knicks Facing Turmoil Without Brunson

Parallel to the Cavaliers’ woes, the New York Knicks are also grappling without Brunson, who plays a crucial role in their offense.

Performance Fluctuations:

• The Knicks narrowly defeated the Wizards in a closely contested game, yet their overall performance has been inconsistent without Brunson (35:19).

Standings and Play-In Implications:

• The Knicks are predicted to finish third in the lottery standings, but their playoff positioning remains uncertain as they face a tough stretch with five out of six games at home (36:35).
• Tim Bontemps remarks, “They are still the favorites to finish third, but I wouldn't say it's a lock” (37:14), indicating the volatility in their playoff hopes.

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6. Phoenix Suns’ Steady Performance Amid Challenges

The Phoenix Suns have been maintaining a solid performance streak, crucial for their playoff positioning despite facing a grueling schedule.

Recent Wins:

• The Suns secured victories against the Cavaliers and other teams, showcasing improved defense and consistent play (17:21).

Coaching and Team Dynamics:

• Marc Stein comments on the Suns’ defense, noting, “Their defense has not been there, but they've been playing better recently” (18:29), highlighting a positive trend in their gameplay.

Upcoming Schedule:

• Phoenix faces a challenging road ahead with tough matchups against higher-ranked Eastern teams, making their continued success imperative for securing a favorable playoff spot (22:35).

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7. Boston Celtics’ High Payroll and Potential Team Restructuring

An intriguing segment addresses the Boston Celtics’ recent sale and the implications of their staggering payroll.

Payroll Concerns:

• The Celtics are approaching a $500 million luxury tax bill, the highest in NBA history, prompting discussions about potential team restructuring to manage financial penalties (44:35).

Owner’s Statement:

• Brian Windhorst quotes Celtics’ governor Wick Gruesbach, stating, “It's not the luxury tax bill, it's the basketball penalties,” emphasizing the need for strategic financial and team management (44:35).

Future Strategies:

• The conversation speculates on whether the Celtics will maintain their current roster or make significant changes to mitigate financial strain while aiming for championship success (48:54).

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8. Miscellaneous NBA Updates and Injury Reports

Throughout the episode, the hosts provide updates on various other teams and player injuries affecting the season's dynamics.

Injury Updates:

• Denver Nuggets’ star Nikola Jokić has missed four consecutive games due to a hamstring strain, impacting their performance and playoff aspirations (11:52).

• Memphis Grizzlies’ John Moran also faces a hamstring strain, exacerbating the team’s struggles (11:55).

Clippers’ Schedule Challenges:

• The Los Angeles Clippers are navigating a tough eastern road trip, facing fatigue and competitive teams, which could influence their playoff positioning (43:05).

Pacers’ Resilience:

• The Indiana Pacers have demonstrated remarkable resilience with four comeback victories in six games, a rare feat since 2000, indicating their potential as a formidable playoff contender (40:58).

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9. Closing Remarks and Upcoming Events

As the episode wraps up, the hosts share personal anecdotes, upcoming travel plans, and promotional mentions, maintaining the camaraderie and dynamic engagement that characterizes the Hoop Collective podcast.

Brian Windhorst encourages listeners to stay tuned for next week’s episode, hinting at deeper dives into players' backgrounds and team strategies: “If you're a Luca fan, you have to have it” (51:33), referring to the upcoming book on Luka Doncic.

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Notable Quotes

• Marc Stein on Josh Giddey’s performance: “Josh Giddey was messing around on maybe the 15th triple double in NBA history” (01:30).

• Tim Bontemps on Bulls’ draft strategy: “I would still like to know what the Bulls plan is in our rebuilds” (05:03).

• Brian Windhorst on Cavaliers’ defense: “Their two star guards for the past month have been way below where they were the prior four months” (27:50).

• Wick Gruesbach on Celtics’ payroll: “It's not the luxury tax bill, it's the basketball penalties” (44:35).

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Conclusion

This episode of Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective offers an in-depth analysis of the current NBA season's pivotal moments, focusing on struggling teams like the Cleveland Cavaliers and Los Angeles Lakers while spotlighting standout performances from players like Josh Giddey. The discussion extends to the strategic maneuvers of teams like the Chicago Bulls and Boston Celtics, providing listeners with a comprehensive overview of the league's evolving dynamics as the playoffs loom.

Transcript

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[Brian Windhorst]

Foreign welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing much earlier on Sunday morning than we normally operate. But whatever it takes. Joining us from New York City, Tim Bontemps.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hello everybody.

[Brian Windhorst]

Joining us from Dallas, Texas before?

[Marc Stein]

Actually, no.

[Brian Windhorst]

Where are you, McMahon?

[Wojciechowski]

Houston, Texas.

[Brian Windhorst]

Join us from Houston, Texas before 8 in the morning wearing a suit, just.

[Wojciechowski]

A sport coat, got some hoop shorts on. Don't you worry. Howdy partners.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, please stop describing your attire after that.

[Marc Stein]

I'm just saying I'm impressed you're up.

[Brian Windhorst]

Before 7:30 in the morning and on a Sunday and you're nicely dressed.

[Wojciechowski]

Wendy, there are some strange things that a contract year will make a man do.

[Brian Windhorst]

We've seen that throughout the NBA. Speaking of contract here, did you guys see what Josh Giddey did on Saturday night?

[Wojciechowski]

Oh yes, yes, yes. Almost a quadruple double.

[Brian Windhorst]

And look, we're doing this early so a lot of games have happened on Sunday. You know, we're going to be a little bit out of the loop here. But the Bulls absolutely demolished the Lakers on Saturday night. The Lakers had their whole lineup for the first time in like at least a month. And Josh Giddey was messing around on maybe the 15th triple double in NBA or quadruple double in NBA history. By the way, before we talk, can I just speak about Josh Giddy, which is always, you know, I'm going to get off to.

[Wojciechowski]

I mean the man has good hair. You like to talk about those good.

[Brian Windhorst]

Hair guys because you know, Bon Temps. And I always like to talk about Josh Giddy. Since the trade deadline, Josh Giddey is averaging 20.3 points, shooting 51 from the field, shooting 50 from three point line.

[Marc Stein]

Four attempts a game. He's basically going two for four per game.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's not Steph Curry, but you know, it's not like he's taken 12 threes in that time. He is averaging 8, 9.2 assists, 7.9, I'm sorry, 9.2 rebounds, 7.9 assists, 29 and 8 on 50, 50, 83% from the foul line.

[Wojciechowski]

Well, I mean you remember when that trade happened. Everybody asked how did Sam Presti not get back Picks in that deal mean giving up Josh Giddy, FORMER LOTTERY pick.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, look, we see teams, Bon Temps. We see teams every year in March and April make these late season runs and you've always got to be careful because you got to look at who's who they're playing and all this stuff.

[Marc Stein]

The Bulls have won seven their last nine games.

[Brian Windhorst]

We don't have to track them like.

[Marc Stein]

The top Sixers anymore because at the deadline is part of the Zach Levine three way trade.

[Brian Windhorst]

They got their full rights back to this year's draft pick, but they have.

[Marc Stein]

Won seven of nine bond temps. And yes, you can probably find some.

[Brian Windhorst]

Games in there that are not great wins. Not, not great wins like the Jazz, they beat the Lakers. They split up 146 on the Lakers playing their seventh game in 10 days.

[Marc Stein]

But there have also been out west.

[Brian Windhorst]

You know, pounding people on this trip and you know, some of their guys are putting up terrific numbers. I'll give you Kobe White's numbers since the, since the trade deadline as well. He's averaging 24 points on 46% shooting and averaging not, you know, not so great from three point range. But bon temps, the Bulls, something or nothing.

[Marc Stein]

They're in ninth place.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, it's something amusing because they're doing what McMahon has said all the time that they were going to do, which is wind up in 11th place in the lottery standings. Now they made a bad trade and got back their own draft pick that was top 10 protected from the spurs at the deadline in a deal that didn't really get them anything because they could have very easily stayed in the top 10 in the draft and not gave up Zach Levine and saw the Kings in the same deal get Zach Levine two first and five seconds from the Spurs. But I mean, I would still like to know what the Bulls plan is in our rebuilds. Tears. The other day we didn't talk about it. I had the Bulls 11th out of 11 teams. And you're right, the Arturis at the trade deadline had a rather amazing quote about the situation that the Bulls are in. I'm pulling it up really quickly. This, this was his quote about where they could go. I think there's different structures that you could try to get to a championship. There's two or three star players and then a lot of role players. Or you could build it with nine, 10 very good players. And I think now we're leaning towards having a lot of solid good players. 9, 10, that could last through a season because there's going to be injuries. I think more and more teams are doing that.

[Wojciechowski]

I like depth, but the star free championship contender is not a thing.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, that's what you say when you don't have a star.

[Tim Bontemps]

That is. That is correct. So we'll see where the Bulls wind up. They now have their draft pick. They are slated to pick 10th. They are ninth in the lottery ahead of the absolutely cratering Miami Heat, which are ninth in the playing stands. I should say not in the lottery. But yeah, I mean they've had a nice run here in a meaningless stretch of the schedule. But where are the Bulls going?

[Wojciechowski]

They're, they're not doing exactly what I said they do because what I said they'd end up doing was sitting the San Antonio spurs fair the 11th overall pick. So by finishing a distant third in the three way trade. Three way trade with the Kings and the spurs again for the second time.

[Tim Bontemps]

And that's right, second time, eight months.

[Wojciechowski]

They eliminated the possibility of sending that 11th overall pick to the Spurs. But, and you look, if you want to be like optimistic, you can say, hey, you know, Gideon, Colby, White are showing they can be a backcourt tandem. That, that works. Okay, great. They're just. Chicago has extreme and the rookie is looking, you know, he played really well last night. It's just hard to see much upside long term for the Bulls despite a nice little stretch here.

[Brian Windhorst]

Let's, let's talk, let's, let's toss out Matas Pizzilis, who. Okay. Before the trade deadline. And I think that's where you gotta draw the line. Cause that's when the Bulls kind of.

[Marc Stein]

Punted or tried to punt.

[Brian Windhorst]

Cause they've been winning. He wasn't doing great. He was having sort of a classic rookie season where he wasn't playing super a lot and he wasn't shooting the ball super well. So before the trade deadline, he averaged.

[Marc Stein]

15 minutes a game.

[Brian Windhorst]

He averaged six points. He was shooting 44% from the field.

[Marc Stein]

Since the trade deadline, he's averaging 26 points.

[Brian Windhorst]

Clearly they moved out Levine to give him playing time. He's moved into the starting one.

[Wojciechowski]

26 minutes, not points.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm sorry.

[Wojciechowski]

Yeah, big difference.

[Brian Windhorst]

Still early. You're on there 26 minutes.

[Wojciechowski]

I've had coffee.

[Brian Windhorst]

12 points. He's shooting just 27 on threes in that stretch. But he did make five of them. He's every. Okay, so he's, you know, start. He's moving the starting lineup. He's averaging 12 points. He did have five threes in, in LA on Saturday. So that was good.

[Marc Stein]

And so if you're a Bulls fan.

[Brian Windhorst]

You, you're, you're looking at that and.

[Marc Stein]

Considering how poorly the Heat are playing.

[Brian Windhorst]

Behind them, you know and look in, in a, in a one off game, you know, maybe Miami wins but if you're Chicago and you're looking at the play in, you know they're, they're not terribly far behind Orlando, Orlando is not playing great. In the last 10 games they've picked.

[Marc Stein]

Up three games on the Magic.

[Brian Windhorst]

There's about 12 games left. Probably not going to catch them for eighth.

[Tim Bontemps]

But only two back. They're not two back.

[Brian Windhorst]

I thought they were three in the. No, no, two back. You know, I just, you know, look, we haven't talked about the Bulls that much and when we have it's been derisive which you know, I don't apologize.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean I would argue this should also, I should argue this has been and should be a derisive conversation also.

[Wojciechowski]

I hear you but like we gotta at least look Giddy's been playing well, the rookies showed signs like there are some little morsels of, of positivity.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, Josh is, Josh is gonna be going to the Bulls and trying to do this this summer.

[Wojciechowski]

Listen, he's.

[Tim Bontemps]

This, this to be clear, was McMahon doing the money side?

[Wojciechowski]

Ye. He's got precedent for asking for a player option, that's for sure.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's the thing about the Bulls, like.

[Wojciechowski]

You know, I need one.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well that's the thing about the Bulls, like you know, they didn't extend Giddy when they traded for him. Okay, fine. They, you know, he didn't play that much early in the season. They made the. Well, he was, he was playing but he wasn't playing like full starter minutes even though he was starting.

[Marc Stein]

Now he is playing full minutes.

[Brian Windhorst]

He's you know, sniffing around, averaging a triple double and now what are they going to do? And you know again they had an A restricted free agent last summer and Patrick Williams, boy, boy who they gave 90 million guaranteed in a player option to Wowzers. And you know, so we'll talk about that in July. Anyway, LeBron and Rui Hachimura came back on Saturday night. Neither of them played that great. Luca had a 29 point first half.

[Wojciechowski]

McMahon, I tell you, he was shooting that rock. And you know what scary he is going both ways on his step back and knocking him down and the both ways. It's something he'd been working on. You hadn't seen much of it. Famously the game Winner. He hit over Gobert in the west finals. Was going back to his right. But he's doing it fairly often now. Clearly has his legs under him and you know the. Lucas put the ball in the hole. Now the, this vaunted Lakers defense, we got to chit chat about it. They just gave up 146 to the Bulls.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, Bontemps, they played seven games in 10 days. They lost four of them and they have lost position. When, when LeBron went down, they were in second. Now they're in fourth by two and, and the warriors, now the warriors are missing. Steph, I think, I think the Lakers.

[Tim Bontemps]

Survived this stretch fine.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I agree.

[Wojciechowski]

They punted a couple of the games. They almost had Denver despite. Yeah, you had to.

[Tim Bontemps]

They had six and eight. They had six and eight and I think went three and three in those games.

[Brian Windhorst]

They did.

[Tim Bontemps]

And LeBron didn't play in any of them.

[Brian Windhorst]

They got the warriors and the Clippers, you know, coming hot on their tail. So. And they start a four game road trip.

[Marc Stein]

They're going out east for four games. It's not the most brutal trip in.

[Brian Windhorst]

The history of the NBA but you know, this is trip is.

[Tim Bontemps]

The trip is Orlando Monday, Indiana Wednesday at Chicago, Thursday at Memphis Saturday.

[Brian Windhorst]

Just say Chicago and, and Indy are two of the hottest teams in the east right now. I just, I just want to point that out. But you know, they are in fourth place and they're right now whole basically So a key 10 days here for the Lakers where they actually get a couple of days off. But have to, they have to win like they need to, they need to get back to where they were otherwise they're going to lose position.

[Marc Stein]

And look, if you're in the west.

[Brian Windhorst]

Obviously you want to stay out of the plan, which they're, they're okay with that. But you know, there is. Which side of the bracket you're on is going to be important, you know, and so it's a little bit hard to completely identify it, but I know.

[Marc Stein]

If Houston holds onto the two seat.

[Brian Windhorst]

And, and you'd rather in your pick.

[Marc Stein]

In the side of the bracket, you'd.

[Brian Windhorst]

Rather be on Houston side of the bracket. I mean that's just, that's just reality, right? I'm not.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, it's more, it's more not being on Oklahoma City side of the bracket even than being Houston side and yeah, I mean it's interesting. So Denver, Nicole Yoka just. I know McMahon's in Houston. Nicole Yoke is going to miss his four straight game with this ankle thing. Today. Careful, Brandon. Brandon Clark is now out for the season with a PCL injury.

[Brian Windhorst]

That was a blow, another injury Saturday night. Medical update, by the way, there was.

[Wojciechowski]

There has not been an official Memphis Cruises medical update release on this, but John Moran has missed four straight. And the first three, it was listed as hamstring soreness. For the fourth, that was changed to a hamstring strain.

[Brian Windhorst]

Sounds like somebody got an MRI is what that sounds like to me, by the way.

[Tim Bontemps]

So Denver's lost, you know, going in this Sunday morning, obviously, but Denver's lost a couple in a row. Lakers have lost four, six of the last 10. Memphis has lost three in a row. And like you said, the Warriors, Clippers and. Right, and the Warriors, Clippers and Wolves have all been pretty hot. And you know, like you said, all three of those teams, they're probably, I shouldn't even say probably. They could be okay avoiding the play in, but they're only a couple losses ahead of those teams behind them. And that's where we talked about it earlier in the week. Minnesota kicking away those games against bad teams earlier this week. Those are the kind of games where if you're trying to dig out of this hole, you can't kick away games like that.

[Brian Windhorst]

So it looks, what it looks like.

[Marc Stein]

In the west right now is whoever.

[Brian Windhorst]

Finishes seventh, you know, there's seven teams that, you know, could look like they could do something. Whoever finishes seventh is going to be. Have sort of lost that derby. And that derby is on full scale right now.

[Wojciechowski]

Why?

[Tim Bontemps]

Why hold on, there's eight teams, I would argue.

[Wojciechowski]

I was going to say because the.

[Tim Bontemps]

Clippers, unless you're disregarding the Clippers or someone else.

[Brian Windhorst]

I am not disregarding the Clippers. Okay.

[Wojciechowski]

Was playing as well as anybody.

[Brian Windhorst]

No, the Clipp in the west right now, really.

[Tim Bontemps]

And by the way, Houston, Houston has a fairly reasonable schedule down the stretch. They've got a lead. I mean, you mentioned that these teams have fallen away. They've got a lead on the two seed. And I think right now you have to look at Houston, incredibly, based off where they, where we would have thought they were at the start of the season as the favorites to finish second in the west, which would be a remarkable accomplishment for the beginning of phase three, this win.

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean, there's no bad time for a win streak, but the win streak that they've gone on has come at an incredibly good time because it's come at a time where Jokic had to finally sit down some games. And it came at a time where LeBron was down and the Lakers just.

[Wojciechowski]

Took some losses and Memphis is struggling.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, yeah, I never liked Memphis's chances to get the two. Just, I mean, you know, maybe you could dispute that. But you're right, you're right. But right, yeah, right, right. As Memphis got JJJ back then jaw went out. They just, they can't, they just can't maintain health.

[Tim Bontemps]

So as of Sunday morning, just so people have a sense of it, per our projections, obviously the Thunder are going to finish first, 67 wins. Rockets will be second with 53. Nuggets will be third, Lakers will be fourth. Grizzlies will be fifth.

[Brian Windhorst]

You have the win projections there. How many?

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, Nuggets. Nuggets are Nuggets and lakers both have 50 wins. Nuggets like slightly ahead percentage wise for third. Grizzlies fifth with 49, warriors six with 48. Clippers seventh, 47 and a half. Wolves eighth at 47.

[Wojciechowski]

Well, and the Nuggets projections, like tell me how much longer Joker is going to be out and obviously I'm gonna, you know, inquire about that this evening when I see the Nuggets.

[Tim Bontemps]

I wonder if this is the first time his career he's missed four games in a row.

[Wojciechowski]

Sounds like a good thing for you to have researched before the podcast.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, it is very early on Sunday morning.

[Wojciechowski]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[Marc Stein]

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[Brian Windhorst]

Speaking of losing four in a row, Time.

[Tim Bontemps]

For Cav's corner and it's now time.

[Wojciechowski]

For Cav's corner with Brian Windhorst. Oh boy.

[Tim Bontemps]

I thought we were gonna duck it McMahon. Oh boy.

[Brian Windhorst]

First off, let me say that the Phoenix Suns who whipped the Cavs on Friday night. The Cavs are playing in Utah on Sunday. So for all we know by the time this posts they'll be they'll be back on the right side of the the column.

[Wojciechowski]

But that would not satisfy both teams missions, right?

[Marc Stein]

If not, that's a different story.

[Brian Windhorst]

But the Cavs have lost four games in a row and that Let me.

[Marc Stein]

Just start real quick.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Suns Durant had 42 on Friday night and Beal's been out during the streak with a hamstring. The Suns of the Sun's offense is churning, which is what we've seen throughout the season. The Sun's defense has not been there. The Suns have played better defense in this stretch. It's still not been great. They're not, you know, shutting teams down, but they're getting for the first time in a really this is their best streak they've had in two plus months and they're getting some level of consistent play at both ends which they haven't been able to achieve.

[Wojciechowski]

And what got Them turned around. I think there was a story written by yours truly and I'm not going to take credit for it. Just like you wouldn't give me credit for the story. It was all about the SBA quotes, among others. But I've called the man Microwave Matt before. I'm going to call him Motivational Matt now. When he said in that team, baby, they saw that, they read those quotes. My print, I don't know. I haven't been in the son's locker room since. Perhaps there's some printouts of some of those motivational quotes from, from Matt Ishbia. But hey, the man, people are still.

[Brian Windhorst]

Printing stuff out these days.

[Wojciechowski]

The man said he wasn't giving up on this season as as well as things looked. And here they are turning things around and they've managed to pull even with the tiebreaker with those Dallas Mavericks ad's coming back though. Sun still got a tough schedule down the stretch. Ooh, we've got to fight for that 10 seed in the west, baby.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, the Mavericks have put together some victories and the other guys are playing so like, you know, you're, you're, you do, you're doing a little tongue in cheek there, but that, I'm serious.

[Wojciechowski]

Like they're hanging in there. And the obviously the Suns are trying to get the 10 seed. Yeah, the, the Mavs actually had a win over the Pistons the other night at home and you know, not only did the Mavericks have home court advantage, but the Pistons were coming off of a lengthy stay in Miami. I'm not sure that that aided their cause, but yeah, old J.B. bickerstaff, you know, plus 25 wins. The Pistons are going to win three times as many games and then some as they did last year if Cav's corner doesn't turn it around. Oh, JB is going to zoom right past Kenny Atkinson for that. Coach of the year, baby.

[Brian Windhorst]

You think so?

[Wojciechowski]

Should be on ballots, I'll say that.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. It's going to be an interesting race for that.

[Marc Stein]

I will, I will say this.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Mavericks have a significantly easier schedule than the the Suns coming down the stretch, including for Dallas, two games left with Brooklyn and a game left with the Raptors. By the way, Brooklyn, whatever we've said about them during the season, their captain Tank job has been immaculate over the last couple of weeks. They've played 10 consecutive games that have gone into clutch time, last five minutes, five points or less. So every single night you watch them, they are playing highly competitive basketball and they have lost eight of those 10 wow.

[Wojciechowski]

And here they are sitting right there, fifth in the lottery standings right above. Right above who?

[Brian Windhorst]

The top Sixers.

[Wojciechowski]

The top Sixers, baby.

[Brian Windhorst]

You race for that fifth spot in the. In the Eastern. When I say fifth, you know, the inverse standings. The fifth pick standings is. Is a drama on it of its own.

[Wojciechowski]

I mean the. The Heat ain't gonna catch them, but the Heat have moved. Heat. The Heat had fallen so hard. Udonis has on NBA today the other day praising them for playing hard all 48 minutes. Like, dude, the guy who was the enforcer of paragraph in the paint. Heat culture is passing out orange slices and participation ribbons on national TV after they lost their I don't know how many straight game.

[Brian Windhorst]

The paragraph in the paint is beautiful.

[Wojciechowski]

Well, and I can say that now because I'm no longer in the same city as ud.

[Brian Windhorst]

So yeah, I wouldn't say.

[Tim Bontemps]

You're not saying that in la.

[Brian Windhorst]

Phoenix.

[Marc Stein]

Phoenix has two games left with the Celtics.

[Brian Windhorst]

The. The Mavericks have two games left with the Nets.

[Marc Stein]

That's how I can define the two way the schedules.

[Wojciechowski]

Now when are those Celtics games though? Because we all.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's.

[Marc Stein]

Yes, of course.

[Brian Windhorst]

I haven't done that.

[Tim Bontemps]

They're before. They're before the last two days of the season. Okay, so they're before one is tomorrow or not tomorrow this week.

[Wojciechowski]

The way Cavs corners go on the Celtics.

[Brian Windhorst]

The.

[Wojciechowski]

The one seed might be in play.

[Brian Windhorst]

Listen.

[Wojciechowski]

Oh, Cavs can't turn this thing back around, baby.

[Brian Windhorst]

Phoenix also has two games with the Bucks who are.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, as we've talked about. Phoenix has, you know, if not the hardest schedule, they and the Mavs and our. And our projection system are currently projected to finish tied. So we'll see where that.

[Wojciechowski]

I would go to the Suns.

[Marc Stein]

So this.

[Brian Windhorst]

So the. So I'll just make it the 4th hardest schedule.

[Tim Bontemps]

Mavs have the 10th hardest schedule per our stuff.

[Wojciechowski]

Just by winning percentage. The Suns have the hardest. But go on.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's hard to know who's going to play in all these games. And I'm not going to try to guess right now. I'll just say this way. The Suns have 11 games left and 10 of them are against teams that have winning records. Okay, that's. That's. I mean, bottom line. All right, back to the Cavs.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh, I thought he was going to just go right by the cast. McMan thought we were gonna go. Forget mention it. Go to the quick little diversion to the Suns and then just glide right by.

[Brian Windhorst]

They have lost four games in a row.

[Wojciechowski]

We don't like to interrupt Wendy, on this pod, we kept it. Sorry.

[Brian Windhorst]

Four games in a row. In those four games they are DFL in three point percentage defense.

[Marc Stein]

This has been a little bit of.

[Brian Windhorst]

Their bugaboo during the, you know, one of the, the flaws in the team is that they tend to get a little. And it's been, obviously through much of the season they've, they've managed it, but there's been times and stretches in the season where they just haven't defended the three well. And you know, sometimes it's been a matter, you know, I listen to the experts like Pelton and Kurt Goldsberry and Tom Haberstrough on 3 point percentage defense. Sometime there's a, there's a happenstance. You can play the same defense and one team can shoot great. So you got to be careful about looking at small sample sizes. So. And this is all four games on this losing streak. But they have a, they have a bugaboo about not getting out to three point shooters. It. When they're not fully locked in, which they haven't been on the stretch and.

[Marc Stein]

They'Re 30th in the league in this stretch in giving in a three point percentage defense.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's been a big thing. And look, this is Donovan Mitchell's last four games. He, he had a hamstring or a groin injury and he missed a game. But his last. Here's his shooting percentages, actually. Well, here's the shooting percentages since the groin injury. 9 of 28 and a loss to Orlando, 5 of 18 and a loss in the Clippers, 8 of 17, which qualifies as a very good game right now in sack two of 18.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh, well, these are the numbers since the All Star break.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

Mitchell and Darius Garland, which, no disrespect to the three point defense, which it is very heavily influenced by variance. I think this is the problem for the Cavs overall since the All Star break. At 13 games. Donovan Mitchell shooting 39 from the field and 28 from three on eight attempts per game. Before the All Star break, you're shooting 45 and 39 since the All. Since the All Star break. Darius Garland shooting 39 from the field and 31% from three on seven and a half attempts per game. Before the all star break, you're shooting 49.8 and 43 from the field. That is the problem with the Cavs. Their two star guards for the past month have been way below where they were the prior four months of the season. And that is, that's the thing. I think you have to monitor going forward, especially with Donovan because we have seen in the past when he's had these core muscle injuries, it's given him a lot of trouble and you know, obviously them losing three or four games in March with a bazillion game lead in the East, I'm not really too concerned about, but extended struggles for those guys going into the playoffs, that, that is something I think that's a little more concerning.

[Wojciechowski]

Yeah, you know, Donovan hadn't played well since he had that awesome performance against the Celtics, you know, when he, when he had 41 on them. I'm a little bit, I guess a little bit surprised simply because like the Cavs very intentionally dialed back their minutes and you know, Donovan's leading the team in minutes, averaging 31 a game, which is a, you know, not a high number. And you know, the, the load on him hasn't been nearly what the load was last year. You know, if he's got to take some more time off, like they still have a five game cushion and I, I'm not gonna. Their defense has stunk. Like right now the only teams that are worse defensively than them in this stretch. Well, I got off the thing, but it's like three tanking teams over these last four games, including the top Sixers. But you know, I don't think this is like Donovan is completely out of gas or something. He's, you know, just got to find a way to, you know, get right and get his rhythm right. And I still, you know, the other thing is quite frankly they get to have a warm up series. You know, like it's not like they've, oh, you got to be peaking when the playoffs start. No, they get a buy like they get a first round buy.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, Orlando is a possible opponent and they.

[Tim Bontemps]

Playing teams are, are terrible. We can't be. If we're talking, if we're going to talk about the Cavs as a serious championship caliber team, which Cavs corner has established is the position we can't be going off. Orlando could be a problem.

[Wojciechowski]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

This sub 500 team though, like physical play is. That is a deficit.

[Wojciechowski]

They should get a nice little rest between the first and second rounds.

[Brian Windhorst]

If things go the way you think they would go. Yes, I would agree with you.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean look, let's just, let's see where, let's see where those two guys are at over the next month. Like I think that that's one of, to me one of the more interesting and important questions in the league over the next few weeks. Like you know, Is this a 10 game blip or has something shifted a little bit? Because if those guys are not going to be shooting 40 plus percent from 3 on high volume, which was the thing that was really driving the Cavs forward, then the whole formula just starts to look a little different.

[Marc Stein]

Right.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Cavs have generally on a night to night, at one point this year, I think they had seven guys shooting over 40% from three point range on the season. And that was not like in December, that was like right in late February. So you're not going to have seven guys shoot over 40%. So some of this is coming back to the pack. But as you said, Bon Temps. One thing to come back to the pack and have a bunch of guys shooting 38, it's another thing when Donovan shooting 28 and Garland shooting 31 and they're taking 15, 16 a game. And then all of a sudden the math starts to get wonky, especially if you're not going to defend the three, which is kind of what's come together.

[Marc Stein]

Now I have a long rule that.

[Brian Windhorst]

I've, I've, you know, just developed and stuck to over 20 years. You never evaluate a team on a long west coast road trip. You know, just happens just you know, like or east coast road trip. And I'll present the Clippers. The Clippers went on east coast road trip, got pounded regularly. They've come back and play the normal living conditions and they, they've responded. So.

[Wojciechowski]

And especially in March, you know, and especially when they've got a comfortable lead correct. In their conference. So like yes, Cavs corners hit a, hit a little rough patch here that.

[Brian Windhorst]

This happened to the Nuggets two years ago. The Nuggets were pounding everybody the year they won the championship.

[Marc Stein]

And they had a stretch in March.

[Brian Windhorst]

Where they were just very, very average. And I think, I think the warriors even three years ago when they won the title, you know that they, they were like dominant throughout the whole season. I think they had a stretch in March. I think Steph might have gotten hurt.

[Tim Bontemps]

The stretch of the schedule for good for teams playing well or poorly is always pretty wonky.

[Wojciechowski]

Well, I, I learned this lesson in 2011 when the Mavericks took a west coast trip. It was, it was March, I don't know, maybe early March, but it was, it was in March and they got completely blown out by the Lakers. And I don't remember exactly what Cuban said, but he said something explosive while I was nagging him on, on the way to the bus after the game. And then they went up to the Bay. And this is when the warriors stunk and got beat by a bad warriors team. And then they went up to Portland and got handled by Portland. And you know, I remember overreacting, saying, you know, the Mavericks, like, they're clearly not a contender. And you know, a few months later there was a parade in downtown Dallas. So not saying that a, a March swoon guarantees success, but it certainly isn't.

[Tim Bontemps]

Like a reason, guarantee failure.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, that was the year Bontemps, where McMahon was like the only person on the ESPN ecosystem that was picking the Mavericks to win the Finals. And I didn't know McMahon very well. Just everybody thinks, yeah, I was like.

[Wojciechowski]

I've returned to my roots. According to, according to angry folks on Twitter, I'm somehow Nico's mouthpiece. Despite the fact that I've said many times I've talked to like 50 something executives and, and scouts and not one has said it was a good trade for the Mavericks, but go on.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. Let me just say I could say a lot of things about you. Nico's mouthpiece ain't one. There was some interesting injury news that came out.

[Wojciechowski]

Wait, hold on. I thought we're going to talk about our, the roots of our friendship in 2011. There's going to be a sweet tale here.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I will say this Bon Temps, I've never told you this story, but like, you know, it was my first. It was my first year with ESPN.

[Marc Stein]

I knew who Tim McMahon was, but.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'd never met him.

[Wojciechowski]

Oh, I knew who Wendy was. He was a big deal, baby, going into that.

[Tim Bontemps]

He's already a big deal going into that.

[Wojciechowski]

Buzz cut, Wendy, at the time. Go on.

[Brian Windhorst]

So, you know, we had the heat index, which was our Miami based ESPN operation, and wasn't eyewear ESPN Dallas, which was the first ESPN regional site. And so like during the Finals, like, we were doing some stuff, like we were specifically like recording some stuff.

[Marc Stein]

I have a vivid memory of us standing out on the bay next to.

[Brian Windhorst]

The arena, McMahon recording videos and things at the time. So anyway, we spent those two weeks.

[Marc Stein]

Working side by side.

[Brian Windhorst]

You know, obviously we met before that, but, you know, we spent those two weeks working side by side. And then the lockout happens. Okay, so then the next start of the next season is messed up. I did come to Dallas for ring night.

[Wojciechowski]

Oh, yes. When the, when the Heat blew the Mads out on Christmas.

[Marc Stein]

Yes.

[Wojciechowski]

It was a Christmas start for the season.

[Brian Windhorst]

And yeah, they started the season and they brought the heat in there and that was. Well, David Stern was there and he had just finally gotten through the lockout and he was sort of a little loopy. That's another story for another day. But you know, it was a busy day for McMahon. I don't think I talked to him much that day. I flew in day up because it.

[Wojciechowski]

Was Christmas Day when he didn't talk to me much. Miami or Dallas during the final. Go on.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right.

[Brian Windhorst]

So it was, it was just because I was so busy. So any. And he was busy. He was covering ring night.

[Marc Stein]

So the season goes along.

[Brian Windhorst]

I don't see the Mavericks again. It's a reduced schedule. I don't see him again. And I don't think I communicated with Man McMahon during that season. But of course I work side by side with him.

[Wojciechowski]

So side by side is a little extreme. Go on.

[Brian Windhorst]

So yeah, the following year.

[Tim Bontemps]

Knowledge, your presence.

[Brian Windhorst]

Maybe it's the first get the, the season now the 201213 season is beginning and we have our annual get together preseason get together in Bristol.

[Tim Bontemps]

I gotta say, this is, this is quite the, this is quite the tale over multiple years.

[Marc Stein]

I know.

[Brian Windhorst]

And it's not gonna have that big of a payoff. We get together for the, for the social on the first night and we all come together and I go, hey, how's it going? He goes, hi, Tim McMahon. Like he was introducing himself to me.

[Wojciechowski]

I literally don't think Winnie had ever talked to me before.

[Brian Windhorst]

That is not.

[Marc Stein]

We worked.

[Tim Bontemps]

I believe you.

[Wojciechowski]

We work. I don't think you actually like made eye contact.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's not true.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm not going to look at the ski on. I'm going to look at the camera. Then I'm going to. Come on, let me say this. Better things to do.

[Wojciechowski]

Like if Yimi met LeBron, then John would probably say, you know, former Mac.

[Tim Bontemps]

Mr. James. Mr. James. John Mahimi. LeBron. Good to see you.

[Wojciechowski]

King. King. I'm y'all Mahimi. I don't know if you remember me. I was kind of a Yan Mahimi at the time.

[Marc Stein]

I had to reevaluate at the time.

[Wojciechowski]

I mean I've, I've worked my way. I'm a starter now. I'm still.

[Brian Windhorst]

He's a J.J. berea. He's now progressing.

[Wojciechowski]

Mi amigo Jose Juan. Old Jose Juan came through and did some games on Mavs TV this year. I saw that. Hey, still ain't tall enough to ref a game, but he's doing well.

[Brian Windhorst]

Don't judge me on my time with the Heat index.

[Wojciechowski]

No, he was very, very like above the fray like us. Normal little city Slick espance.

[Brian Windhorst]

The idea that we hadn't met is preposterous.

[Wojciechowski]

No, we had met, but we had not. Like you had not made Icon. We had.

[Marc Stein]

There's no way.

[Tim Bontemps]

You sort of nodded at him.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm acknowledging it now.

[Wojciechowski]

I mean, he kind of like, you know, Wendy, when he kind of did the little, you know, like. Little. Little.

[Brian Windhorst]

You had picked the Mavericks, it was hard to.

[Wojciechowski]

Yeah, I think, hey, I wasn't the only one because my man Steiny was not picking against Dirk at the time.

[Brian Windhorst]

Fair.

[Wojciechowski]

Also, the funny thing is about that. This is part of the reason I stopped picking, because there's no, like, it's a no win situation. But you know who I picked in the first round that year? The Portland Trailblazers to beat the Dallas Mavericks.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, my God.

[Wojciechowski]

I think. I think what happened was I picked against them the first two rounds and I said, well, hell with it.

[Brian Windhorst]

What happened was you saw them play in March and you were like, this team can't win a championship. They're never. They're never getting out of the first round.

[Marc Stein]

There was some injury news on Saturday night. The Knicks gave an update on Jalen.

[Brian Windhorst]

Brunson and they said he'll be evaluated in a week. Which is, in other words, is. He's not close. Yeah, they did eke out a win.

[Marc Stein]

Over the Wizards at home.

[Wojciechowski]

They more than. They let it get close.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm making a joke because it was.

[Marc Stein]

They were up by 30 and they.

[Brian Windhorst]

Let it get down to like six.

[Wojciechowski]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

And then they pushed it back out to like 17. But they're.

[Marc Stein]

They're back from.

[Brian Windhorst]

They had this long road stretch. You know, Madison Square Garden gets used a lot in March, and so they're always going on these road trips. But they went. I think they played seven out of eight on the road and, you know.

[Marc Stein]

Most of it without Jalen.

[Brian Windhorst]

Jalen got hurt in the first game of that, and they've just been up and down. Town's had another good game, but they're sort of ensconced on temps. You've been so focused on, you know, going to Boston and Philly for two separate reasons. You haven't spent much time around the Knicks recently, especially because they've been on the road. But that's.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's sort of, sort of not true. I was at this barn burner on Saturday.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, you were there last night?

[Marc Stein]

I was.

[Tim Bontemps]

I didn't know you were there. Yeah, I was there.

[Brian Windhorst]

Was that.

[Tim Bontemps]

I was there where I thought for a moment that the. The Tank and Wizards were going to potentially be the third tanking team to beat the Knicks in a week after they lost to the spurs and Hornets. And then.

[Wojciechowski]

Wow, that would have been established.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes, that would have been a very bad week. And then the Knicks re established their position in the fourth quarter.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

And so did the Wizards.

[Wojciechowski]

You gotta, you gotta do too much lately. It's now neck and neck for number one in the lottery odds. It doesn't matter for like the odds of the number one pick, but it does matter in terms of, you know, you can fall. Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Knicks are going to be the third seed and they do have what looks like they're in a stretch of five out of six at home.

[Tim Bontemps]

Have made it a little interesting, Brian.

[Brian Windhorst]

But they've got, they've got a cushion.

[Wojciechowski]

They got a three game cushion still.

[Tim Bontemps]

They're, they've got a three game cushion. But Jalen Brunson is not gonna be evaluated for another week. That's the injury news that came out Saturday night. He's not gonna get looked at.

[Wojciechowski]

Pay attention.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, he's not gonna get, he's not gonna get revalued till at least next Saturday, which I would say means he's probably not going to come back for a couple weeks. He maybe plays a few games at the end of the season as a result of that. But you know, there's, there's enough of a window there where you can at least say if the Knicks do scuffle a bit more, there are only three losses up on Indiana. They're four losses up on Milwaukee. Yes, those teams have to get hot. But like I said, the Knicks just lost to San Antonio and Charlotte. They are not playing great. So I, I think they'll finish third, but I wouldn't say it's a lock.

[Wojciechowski]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

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[Wojciechowski]

The Pacers keep pulling out crazy wins. Like they keep pulling out these wild comebacks. They Halbert hits hits a wild three obi toppin nim hard. I mean like hold on, here's a, here's a good one from our guy Stats Williams. The Pacers now they won a close one against the Nets, what, a couple nights ago. But before that, the Pacers were the first team since at least 2000 to win four times in a six game span when they trailed in the last 20 seconds of the fourth quarter in each win. And some of those, like against the Mavericks, they came back from like seven down in the final minute.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah.

[Marc Stein]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

So I don't know. I mean what do we take from that? Do we take from that the Pacers are going to keep winning at an 800% clip or no, I. I take.

[Wojciechowski]

That the Pacers are are going to be the first team in consideration for the Cajones fact. Can there Can a team be the boss?

[Tim Bontemps]

The rules change every month.

[Wojciechowski]

I've got to do Some considering. I've got a. We've got a. We've got a Bricktown consultant that maybe I'll, I'll call to ask about that.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, well, the Pacers, I will say this. I do not. I know this is sort of a nebulous thing that somebody can say.

[Wojciechowski]

Nebulous.

[Brian Windhorst]

I don't want to see them in the playoffs. They're. They're a team that beating them four times is going to be difficult. It's going to be their style of play and they have depth and Halliburton's.

[Tim Bontemps]

Book, more like himself.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, he's had a string, I think he said five straight games of 10 plus assists, something like that.

[Wojciechowski]

Yeah, but he's banged up now.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, now he's banged up again.

[Marc Stein]

Well, he's back.

[Brian Windhorst]

He came back on Saturday. But anyway, just, you know, I watched, you know, I spent the week with.

[Marc Stein]

Them in Paris this year and.

[Wojciechowski]

Oh, did you? We, we.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I enjoyed it.

[Marc Stein]

But you know, I spent a bunch.

[Brian Windhorst]

Of time with them last year in the, in the playoffs and it's just watching the way they play, I just.

[Marc Stein]

They have a wearing effect.

[Brian Windhorst]

You know, they wore the Knicks to the Nub in that seven game series and I watched them wear this.

[Marc Stein]

The spurs out in two games in three days.

[Brian Windhorst]

This, by the end of that game.

[Marc Stein]

The spurs were tired.

[Brian Windhorst]

So they just, they have a, they have a way of wearing the teams out the way they play. So let's point that and look, the.

[Tim Bontemps]

Knicks are still projected to finish third by a couple games for our stuff. I think they are still the favorites to finish third, obviously. But again, we talked about the Cavs having a concerning stretch. I mean, with Jalen Brunson out, the Knicks have not surprisingly not looked great and he's not coming back seemingly in the near future. So let's see.

[Marc Stein]

The Cavs and the Knicks have two.

[Brian Windhorst]

Games left against each other. So we'll see, we'll see how those two, how those games play out. By the way, Wednesday, interesting game coming up for you. Bon Temps. Are you going Wednesday night?

[Marc Stein]

The Clippers are in town.

[Tim Bontemps]

I will be at the Clippers next game.

[Brian Windhorst]

Check in on those red hot Clippers.

[Tim Bontemps]

Clippers are going to be out east for a minute. I'm going to see them a couple times, I think.

[Wojciechowski]

Yeah, I just saw them bond. Timps, are you on on Mavs? The Mavs beat for me these next couple nights. Little Nets, Knicks back to back.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yep, I'll be, I'll be on hand for the, for both Mavs games. Finally, I haven't seen him since the trade deadline went a lot. I saw him right after the trade, but I, I saw him right after the trade, but I haven't seen.

[Brian Windhorst]

I was talking to somebody from the Clippers earlier this season and they were like, you know, our schedule really hasn't improved that much with getting our own arena because they thought it was like going to be a world of difference. And you know, they got rid of having to play Saturday and Sunday afternoon games or they have to play like these half back to backs where play Friday night and then like Sunday at noon. But they're like, I don't think that the league really adjusts our schedules that much. We're still trailing, we're still like on the same schedule as the Lakers. And this is an example.

[Marc Stein]

The Lakers come on an east coast.

[Brian Windhorst]

Trip as if Staples center is being used for like, I'm sure it's being used for something.

[Marc Stein]

And the Clippers are on the East Coast.

[Tim Bontemps]

Clippers are too. Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

So anyway, before we go, I just want to point, you know, we talked at the last podcast. The, this, the Celtics sale had just happened like within an hour or two. I just want to point out some interesting quotes from Wick Gruesbach, who's the Celtics governor and apparently will remain the Celtics governor. That's what the, the statement from Bill, Bill Chisholm said.

[Tim Bontemps]

We will see. We'll just put it that way.

[Wojciechowski]

All right, well, if the statement from Bill Chisholm said it, that's, you know, a little bit.

[Tim Bontemps]

We will, we will, we will see.

[Marc Stein]

All right.

[Brian Windhorst]

Anyway, so Wick went on Wei powerhouse Boston radio station and gave an interview talking about the sale and what's going forward. And you know, he hasn't given interviews in a while because the team's been for sale. And again, the thing about the Celtic sale, it's, it's more interesting than the average team sale because of what their payroll looks like going forward next year. Including luxury tax approaching 500 million, the highest payroll in the history of world sport. So here's what he said on Wei. It's not the luxury tax bill, it's the basketball penalties.

[Marc Stein]

The new CBA was designed by the.

[Brian Windhorst]

League to stop teams from going crazy. They decided it's not good enough to go after the wallets because fans can be like, find someone who can afford.

[Marc Stein]

To spend $500 million a year, whatever it is. Which there are a couple of NBA.

[Brian Windhorst]

Owners who probably can do that. The basketball penalties, this is quote, the.

[Marc Stein]

Basketball penalties mean that it's even More.

[Brian Windhorst]

Of a premium now to have your.

[Marc Stein]

Basketball general manager be brilliant and lucky.

[Brian Windhorst]

Because you have to navigate. You can't stay in the second apron.

[Marc Stein]

Nobody will. I predict for the next 40 years of the CBA, no one is going.

[Brian Windhorst]

To stay in the second apron more than two weeks.

[Marc Stein]

Years.

[Wojciechowski]

Mattish Pierce says hold my beer, baby.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, this, I would say a couple things. One, I would say that if you're, if you're going to eventually make moves to save money, it is a lot better to frame it. It's not saving money, but for other.

[Brian Windhorst]

Reasons I would say that in this case it's saving money and the penalties.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I mean the other thing I would say is that, you know, there rarely have been in the, in the time that the league has been operating in the manner it is currently. There have been very few times or more than a couple teams have been over this sort of threshold of money at a time anyway. So I don't think like, yeah, I don't think there's going to be more than it. Most teams are going to spend a year or two over it and then duck back down. I think that's, I agree how it's going to work, but I also think that's how it's.

[Brian Windhorst]

Let me ask this. Yeah, technically, and this is the follow up question and maybe Wickle could ask this at some point. Is this the second year that the Celtics.

[Marc Stein]

Is he deeming this the second year or is he deeping next year?

[Brian Windhorst]

The second year because technically the second.

[Marc Stein]

Apron existed last year. It didn't have the full penalties in it. They phased the penalties in.

[Brian Windhorst]

But technically this is the Celtics second year in the second apron.

[Wojciechowski]

Well, we will find out.

[Tim Bontemps]

By the way he is, by the way he is saying that it's if you're, if again if you're just focused on the basketball penalties which. Yeah, we'll see. It's the first year. Okay. Now I, I will maintain the same thing that I've said the whole time, which is that I think if the Celtics win the title this year, I find it very hard to believe this team will go on cost saving measures. However they want to frame them when they have a chance to be the first team to three peat since the Lakers 25 years ago. I think if the Celtics don't win the title like they fall short in any fashion, I would suspect then that financial looking at things at least through some financial prism will be on the table. Now the Celtics can make a move to save some money and still be an awesome team.

[Brian Windhorst]

They don't have to disassemble the team.

[Tim Bontemps]

They don't have to disassemble the team. There's a lot of ways that can look as things go forward, but I think that will be, that's obviously going to be a huge question this summer as to what they're going to do. And I just still believe that if they've won two in a row, I don't think this guy's going to assume the team in July and assume control of the team in July and then have it go, yeah, we're now we're going to start saving money. That would not be great.

[Wojciechowski]

I've seen owners do wild things in their first year. Listen, that's all I'm going to say.

[Brian Windhorst]

About, I would just say that yes, structurally that makes sense, but we've never seen anybody have to deal with this kind of payment before. And also I want to be clear, they're not breaking up Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum. You know, that's those guys are staying together. The question is can they keep Al Horford, can they keep Chris Eps Porzingis, can they keep Darren Drew Holiday?

[Wojciechowski]

Get moved.

[Marc Stein]

Yes.

[Brian Windhorst]

Like these are the questions. So. And again, it's not like the most important thing in the NBA, but they might be winning, they might be winning their second title here with a team that's beautifully been put together. So.

[Wojciechowski]

And all those guys we just mentioned, you know, are obviously guys who can help. Contenders also say this.

[Brian Windhorst]

I think I don't 100% know, but I've asked and I think Brad Stevens has two years left on his contract. Brad almost never speaks to the media. He is very cautious with all of that. He keeps all of that under wraps. His agent is his wife, so mine too, rightly so. And, but I think he's got two years on his contract. I would highly advise and I'm sure that this is going to be on the table. I would highly advise the Celtics to lock Brad Stevens up because he is a very valuable piece of what they've got going.

[Wojciechowski]

Wendy sees a 6.1 billion dollar price tag. He's trying to weasel his way into a high priced consultant role. Look at this.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, thank you gentlemen for doing this early. I've got a travel day from Ohio back home. Thank you to Jackson for getting up early. Thank you for watching. Listen to Collective and we talk to.

[Wojciechowski]

You next week right after Luka Doncic and the Curse of Gravy is available in bookstores and everywhere you can buy books.

[Brian Windhorst]

Amazing. It's Tuesday. Release date is Tuesday.

[Wojciechowski]

Not to toot my own horn, but.

[Brian Windhorst]

Hey, I just lost track of this. That's okay.

[Wojciechowski]

Don't worry. I'll plug myself.

[Tim Bontemps]

We've only been plugging it for months, so it's a.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's a really gigantic accomplishment. McMahon. Real talk. Is that your name? I can't remember. Have we met?

[Wojciechowski]

Hey, you. You know me now because you got a quote right there on the COVID of it, baby. Collective plug. On the book cover, too. So it's like a mutually beneficial thing.

[Brian Windhorst]

Spectacular. Well, listen, if you think that you like McMahon's quips, dry humor, and cutting analysis on this podcast, where do you get a load of him after he's been in Slovenia tracking down Luka Doncic history? Because there's a lot of that in here. And really, in a real talk here, maybe there's been stuff written in Slovenian about Luca. There's never been anything written about Luca's background. This is the most complete text that's been done. Obviously, McMahon's been there for all of his exploits on the court, but McMahon went to find his roots and spent a lot. I don't even know how you got some of those Slovenian. I got some of this information out of Slovenia, but you got. You went over there and got it done. And if you're a Luca fan, and.

[Marc Stein]

I know right now there may be.

[Brian Windhorst]

More Luca fans than there are Mavs fans, and there's a lot of new Luca, probably.

[Marc Stein]

This is not just a book about.

[Brian Windhorst]

Luca and the Mavericks. This is a book about Luca and where he came from and how he became steppe of player and his rise and his dynamics. So if you're a Luca fan, you have to have it. I don't know how you. I don't know how you know. And again, real talk. I'm not just saying this because McMahon thinks he's going to, like, make a bunch of money on this book. He's already made all the money he's going to make. Like, I told him that, like, you're. The money that you get up front is what you're getting, even if you're on the bestseller list, you know, unless you sell movie rights, which, if you do, we'll have another conversation. So I'm not even.

[Marc Stein]

I don't even really.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's. I'm not even trying to sell it for him. I'm just telling you because I've read it. So that's. That's. That's my. That's my commentary. It's not even a pick.

[Wojciechowski]

Well, that. That's a much Better plug than the don't buy the book chance at the February 8th protest outside of the so. I appreciate that. Wendy, you want to weigh in? Oh, no. Wendy's got to go catch flight.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm very proud of you for getting the book done. It's a great book. Everybody should obviously read it.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. It was still being written, like, two weeks ago.

[Wojciechowski]

Oh, God.

[Tim Bontemps]

The guy's been. Man's been working his tail off on it for a long time. It's a great book. It's a great read. Like I said, very proud of you for getting it done.

[Wojciechowski]

Yeah. There's a. There's a plot twist at the end. Not to. Not to spoil.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, we'll talk to you in a couple days in the hoop collective.

[Wojciechowski]

Adios, amigos.

[Brian Windhorst]

Had to tee it back up for you.

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