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Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Why Is A Giannis Trade So Challenging? + Chris Paul’s Odd Clippers Exit & Chet’s Development In OKC
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Hoop Collective: Why Is A Giannis Trade So Challenging? + Chris Paul’s Odd Clippers Exit & Chet’s Development In OKC
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- [00:01]
A
This episode is presented by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm.
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B
It's like needing the protection of an offensive guard on the football field, but.
- [00:11]
A
Getting an elementary school crossing guard. Sure, they're both guards, but you can only trust one to keep your quarterback safe when the game is on the line. So don't settle for just any insurance when there's State Farm.
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B
Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
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Time is something that cannot be bought.
- [00:32]
C
It cannot be wagered with God, and.
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A
It is not in endless supply. Time is simply how you live your life.
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B
Hello and welcome to HOOPP Collective Podcast. We talk about the NBA which we're doing on Thursday afternoon. Joining me from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where he is going to. I think Bontemps is going to be there tonight. Do you know that, Anthony?
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A
I do know that because I got like a combo hit with him coming up in.
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B
Oh my God.
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A
Hour and a half or so.
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B
Yeah. All right. The warriors are playing at the 76ers. You'll be at the Xfinity Center, I think it's called.
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A
You sound disgusted that I have to see Tim Bontemp tonight. I'm excited to see Tim Bontemp.
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B
I would never say that. How dare you. How dare you bring what we set off the pod onto the pod. How dare you join us From Detroit, Michigan, home of the fourth place Michigan Wolverines in the Big Ten, it's Vince Goodwill.
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C
I can't say go blue. There's nothing I can really say. You delivered an impressive and methodical ass kicking over the weekend. Congratulations to the Buckeyes.
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B
I just reported their, their positioning. I don't think that that's inflammatory at all.
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A
I didn't watch much of it, but I appreciated like the, the, the protecting of the M post game. I did see that. That was, it's very rivalry esque. I like that.
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B
Yeah, I don't, I don't know what to make of that, but I guess okay. It was one of the most embarrassing moments in Ohio State football history last year when they got. Got into a fight after getting embarrassed on their home field. But we'll move on. We talk about the NBA here, Vince. The Detroit Pistons had a, not a very good loss on Wednesday night because they were playing against the Bucks and Giannis got hurt in the first quarter. But I think we should start in Milwaukee and not with that game. I really am worried that the Giannis trade or non trade situation is going to become the bane of NBA media's existence. And I'm certainly, I'm Sure. Bucks fans existence for the next six weeks. I'm afraid of that, especially now that it looks like Giannis is going to be out for two to four weeks with a calf injury, hopefully sooner rather than later. But they did come out and beat the Pistons for their best win of the year. But beyond that game, my conversations, Vince, in the last 24 hours have been with teams. Actually, there's been two types of conversations. Teams that talking to me about whether I think Giannis would actually go through with this. And then this afternoon, people getting at my. At me about the ESPN story about the five Bucks deals that could be made and some of the teams that I didn't have anything to do with this, but ESPN projected five possible trades, and I had one guy from one of these teams go, we would never do that trade. Why are you even possibly putting it on there? But anyway. But mostly what I've heard is, do you actually think Giannis will go through with this? And I don't have a good answer, Vince, for whether or not he will. I can certainly make the case why he would, but I could have made that before, and he's gone to this precipice and pulled back. So now there's the injury here. I don't really know how this is going to go.
- [03:38]
C
Well, I will say this. It is very clear that if Giannis wants to go, he does not want to be the bad guy. Like, he has seen all of these things play out in other NBA cities, in other NBA situations, and he doesn't want to be a hypocrite. Like, I remember in 2021 when, you know, it's in the aftermath of the Bucks winning that NBA title over Phoenix in six games. And he's on the. He's on the podium and he's talking about how he could have left and could have gone to a super team. I stayed. We did it the hard way. I. I don't think he wants those words to come back and bite him in the butt, but inevitably, I think it kind of does, and it will. Like I was going to call you, Greeny. Wendy, we know how this plays out, whether it's Anthony Davis or Kevin Durant or James Harden or Kyrie Irving, all different degrees of get me out of here. It's a playbook. It's a calendar, so to speak. Giannis just doesn't want to be the bad guy. He doesn't want to make it seem like he's bailing on the Milwaukee Bucks. But the bott bottom line is this. They have won A grand total of one playoff series since 2021. One playoff series. And Giannis's body ever so slightly, if last night especially is any indication, is starting to give out on him a little bit. Like he's been playing not 82 games a year more. 65, 66, 70 games. You only have so many chances while your body is still.
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B
Yeah. By the way, this actually do something if it's closer to four weeks than two. Probably knocks him out of. Cause he's already missed some games with a groin injury. He probably knocks him out of all NBA stuff.
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A
Well, and it might knock the Bucks out of like, reasonable, you know, not playoff contention because the play in just everybody's, you know, eligible basically through March. But I want to ask you about the injury, though, because it's not just, hey, he tweaked an ankle, he's out a few weeks, like, but he's going to be backing himself. Like, this is a scary injury, right? We've seen this over the last several seasons. It honestly reminded me I was covering that Warriors Rocket series, second round series when Dur did the calf pulled up lame. And people were wondering that night, like, hey, was that maybe the Achilles? And I remember seeing him in the locker room and talking to him postgame, and it was lower calf. And obviously he rehabbed back. But we know what happened in the Finals. Tyrese Halliburton is the most recent example. I'm just like, it's a type of injury that if you are going to just, you know, blow all your assets to go get Giannis, you probably want to make sure that, you know, it's not a ticking time bomb. And I just. I guess I would ask you, Wendy, how do you expect the nature of the injury at this time to impact potential trade discussions?
- [06:16]
B
That's a good question. I don't know. I don't know the answer. Slater, I will say this. You know, one of the things. So one of the. One of the conversations I've been having with. With folks is what the. There's this slate of players, star players in their 30s, okay? And some of them potentially could be available for trade. So maybe. I don't. I don't know what'll happen with Anthony Davis. You know, it's very hard to say, but Anthony Davis could potentially get traded again. Okay, this is a guy who's 32 years old. You know, Giannis is turning 31 on Saturday. These are studs. I mean, A.D. came back, he had 17, 17 and three blocks on. On Wednesday night. By the way, quick aside I'm known for this. Making these asides. Cooper Flagg, I got. I don't know if you guys are watching. Cooper Flagg is starting to put the feet on the ground. He had an amazing last minute of the game on Wednesday night. Watching the game against the Heat, I think, I don't think the Heat were going to win the game in Dallas. He made three consecutive plays, two on defense and one on offense that won them the game, like.
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C
And he's turning 19 this month.
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B
Yeah, he's. I, I hate to sound like a broken record. I don't want to be this guy. His rookie season is reminding me of LeBron by the minute. Like, this is what happened to LeBron. That team started 4, 15. They made him play point guard. He wasn't a point guard. They finally said, stop playing point guard right now. They got Nemhard, Nemhardt, Brian Nemhardt.
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A
That's an interesting development, but you mentioned it. Two defensive plays. To me, that's like the rarity of the rookie, right? The winning time plays on the defensive.
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B
LeBron was making offensive plays to do it.
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A
But, like, you were there making defensive plays too.
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B
Yeah, he was. But, like, you know, Cooper Flag's a better defensive player than LeBron was as a rookie. LeBron was a better offensive player. But like, at game, like 20, 25, LeBron started, like turning the tide and start, you know, like starting to say, no, no, no, I'm going to start winning some games. But anyway, that's neither here nor there, guys. Anthony Davis, like, I don't know what the value of Anthony Davis, some of the stuff that I have heard from executives talking to me about what they think Anthony Davis is, trade value. I'm not even going to say it because then I'd get aggregated and people would be jumping down my throat and I would just be repeating something somebody else said. When I have heard what people are saying Anthony Davis's trade value is right now. Not because of him as a player, to be clear, not because he's diminished as a player, but because of the idea of paying an injury prone 30, mid-30s guy 50, $60 million in the apron era is unpalatable. Like, so. So, like, the thing is, you say about Giannis and you're talking about his trade value and stuff like, this is a guy who is a top five player. You just don't get top five players in their primes potentially coming on the, on the blocks. I mean, you know, in the case of Luka, people were horrified at the return, right? Because luka is top 10 player, maybe you are your top five, but whatever. He hasn't won any MVPs so I'm not going to put him in the with those guys who have. And people were, were furious at the return there. Like Giannis just doesn't. You don't get top, top five players available in trade like in their primes very often. Giannis is still in his prime. But what you said, Slater is correct, he does have a history of injuries. And the first thing you're going to have to do if you trade for Giannis is you're going to have to get an understanding that you're going to extend his contract. He's, he's got one year left after this year and if you're going to trade for him, like I don't know how you don't do it thinking that you're going to give him 300 million in next summer. So like you'd have to not only be willing to trade for him, but you'd have to be willing. I don't see how you. Do you think I'm wrong, Vinnie?
- [10:01]
C
Because no, you have to extend them. You can't. For one, he'd be the first. Thank you Jackson, he'd be the first two time MVP to be traded in mid season. Like the precedent that that sets these guys, these historical players, like you can think of the players who at least in modern NBA history post 1984 we're talking about and I guess I could name them if I wanted to be an encyclopedia right now, but just trust me on this, these guys don't wind up being moved whether it's against their will or not. But if you are a team, the question I have is what team is built in such a way so that a player like Giannis who handles the ball, who's a two way force and, and also you have to be able to absorb the fact that he'll miss some games. What team is a Giannis away and will be willing to sacrifice everything that you have in your treasure trove to go get him? Like what does that look like to say we're going to give you adequate value and we're still going to be able to compete? I don't know the best way to sort of gauge his value because Mikhail Bridges wouldn't be traded for five first round picks right now. No, you know what I mean? Like, like the, the Herschel Walker, Shay Gilders, Alexander, that will be the last of its kind if teammark.
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A
Well, let me ask.
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C
No team will ever do anything like.
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A
That then his market won't be everything in your treasure trove. You know what I mean? I mean, it's not going to be like, Brian, if you pulled the same executives, it's not going to be Anthony Davis level of return package. It's going to be better than that. But it's not, you know, if you get into the discussions of an Oklahoma City, a Houston, a, you know, San Antonio, whatever, name the teams like, I don't think they would have to empty their treasure chest. Obviously you would have to open it up to a degree. But am I wrong to think that considering all the dynamics at play, it won't just be boom, take everything, name every single asset we have.
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B
Well, that's the thing. Like, you know, ESPN put up this. I don't know who to give credit for this. Did either of you take part in this? I didn't do it. I assume nobody put their names on it. Oh, here. You know, so it just says NBA insiders. I don't know who, who, who to talk about this, but it came up with five trades. Like, I, you know, these stories are really popular and, and you know, I can see it. But like, you know, some of these that we're, you know, like, for example, the first one out of the gate is a concept Hawks trading for Giannis and it was Trey Young, Zachary Richach and four first round picks. And what I'm telling you is when I talk to executives, and these executives are not in trade talks with the Bucks or another team for a star player right now. The mood in the NBA right now is not to give a four first round picks for anybody. Okay, maybe if Shay, you know, came on or Victor, I don't even know. Like, people don't want to do that because the aprons have spooked so many teams. All these teams are worried about getting into apron trouble where they can't win, reset their rosters and you get into a situation like the, like the Celtics were in where you got to rip your team down. I mean, you know, Josh Kroenke, the owner of the Nuggets got lit up because last summer he was talk, he was talking about the fear of the aprons and he's like, I don't want to get into a position where I might have to trade Jokic. And like, people freaked out. We're like, and I agree, you shouldn't have said it. It was like too, you know, the kids don't need to hear about that. You know, but this is how teams are thinking right now. They're they're a little freaked out about the aprons. And so I agree with you, Vince. There ain't going to be no 5 first round pick trades. I know that. We saw those for a while. That's just not going to happen. And so again, like, what we're talking about here is number one, Giannis getting to the point where he says, all right, I'll be the bad guy, want it. Or the Bucks saying, okay, we're going to trade you. Which I just. None of the Bucks action. So far, the Bucks have just quadruple quintuple mortgage down to keep Giannis. I just don't see a mid season where they're going to do that. But. And I.
- [13:59]
A
Okay, so he's about to miss, let's say. And if you're, if you're the Bucks, you should probably be cautious because this is the second calf injury for Yanis. So let's. It's two to four weeks as Sean's put out. Let's say it's on the more, you know, it's closer to the four side. We're talking about into January. They're 10 and 13. Actually kind of a big win they got last night, right, to at least stabilize things briefly. But if they are, you know, teetering and they're being cautious with Giannis and February is coming up quickly, they're going to be kind of put to the test. Because if they did decide to take it past the deadline, don't the packages that we're already talking about being weaker than probably the outside world would expect, get even weaker?
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B
I don't know. I'm just telling. So, okay, so it was Bobby Pelton, Zach Cram, and Jamal Collier who did this. Jamal, you know, covers the Bucks. Bobby and Pelton worked in front offices. Zach Cram basically could work in a front office. Jamal knows the Bucks as well as anybody we've got on our staff. I'm just telling you, these trade packages, like, you know, here's another one in theory, what the the Bucks could get from the spurs for Giannis. Stefan Castle, Harrison Barnes, Kelly Olenek, Jordan McLaughlin and three firsts. This is not matching what people in the league are telling me. The value is for us, even for a superstar player. It doesn't mean that those guys are. All it takes is one.
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C
All it takes is one.
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B
I know. You're right, Vince. You're right, you're right.
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C
Two, maybe two. Put it like this. If it were two, won't say rotation players. Cause that's kind of beneath. But maybe A team's second and third best player or second and fourth best player and one unprotected pick. And one pick with protection, maybe not three. First. First. Cause that ba. That ties you up with. That ties a team up for so long. But if you get one and you get another one with some level of, you know, some level of protection on it, not the New Orleans thing. And you get two players that are maybe on rookie deals, so their next max type deals are. Aren't even the big boy maxes, they're the rookie scale maxes. But even then, how do you get the money to match? Like, it feels so complicated. Like something. If it's going to happen, it's going to happen and the team's going to figure it out. But it's so difficult in the apron era to gauge what a trade value is. And once again, I. The question, I'm not asking it and saying, of course Houston could do it. I'm asking the legitimate question of who feels like, hey, we have enough that we can trade. We can trade for a guy like Giannis, absorb Giannis in the way and the style of which he plays, because it's not like he just fits into everybody's style with the way that the game is being played today, we can give up reasonable assets. Maybe not our best player. If you're Houston, you're not trading Kevin Durant or whatever, are you trading Twin Thompson? You know, like that. That's the questions. Are you going to.
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B
And again, I just want to clarify this discussion. We're talking about like guys in their 30s. We're not. I'm not talking about in a hypothetical, if all of a sudden Shea was available.
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C
Right.
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B
Talking about this is the difficulty that teams are having looking at guys in their 30s, basically, players who are. Have some injury history and you're going to have to pay like $60 million a year when they're in their. When they're 34, 35, 36. Like, I know I can, I can. I can hear somebody out there listening to this podcast saying, what are you talking about? This is Giannis. Giannis will go for two star players and six firsts. I am. Maybe that will happen. I am just telling you, I talk to the guys who make these trades every day, all day long. And I'm. The appetite is just different. Everybody is feeling a certain way. I'm just telling you I could end up being wrong. I'm just reporting back. Sorry, Vince.
- [17:41]
C
No, no, but that was my general point, is that you have to a. Have a team. Good Enough, Right. And if you're good enough, that means you spent money. Right. And then you're going to absorb a $50 million player that you're going to sign to subsequent 55, 60, 65. Who knows what the max is going to look like on the back end of this? Slater, right. Like Stephen Curry, seemly expensive as he gets older, even though he's nowhere near the best version of himself. That's just using step as a point of reference because you're here, but you get what I'm saying?
- [18:18]
A
Well, I want to ask a question, you know, because part of this discussion, you would say, hey, that creeks the door open for a team, a middle tier package team like the warriors, who are maybe more desperate at this situation, maybe would kind of unload the cupboard. But then I think part of the discussion we haven't talked about is like, how much does Giannis control the situation where he has to go to the place.
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B
So this is the thing, this is what I said to Vince earlier. I like, okay, Slater, you and I lived through the Jimmy Butler thing last year, right?
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A
Yeah. Yes.
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B
Where Jimmy Butler now is a little bit different because Butler had just a player option left. Giannis has one year plus a player option. And the reason that's important is that Butler could see sign a contract in conjunction with the trade, same time, whereas Giannis, I don't believe can. Giannis could extend his contract next summer, next season. Yeah, but certainly like I said to Vince earlier, you would have an understanding. So I assumed that this would be like Butler, like with Butler, like those teams that were negotiating with the Heat were also negotiating with Butler. Like, will you extend here? As you remember very well, the same day that Jimmy got traded to the warriors, he agreed to a new contract. Okay. It didn't happen after. Excuse me. I mean, let's just be honest, the late stages, investigation purposes, it happened after.
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C
There you go. There you go.
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A
Yeah. I mean, look, the late stages of that were a lot more about Butler and the warriors than Butler in the Heat or I mean, than the warriors in the Heat, I should say.
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B
Correct. So I would have assumed, especially a player like Giannis, who you may be going. I mean, just because people are telling me they ain't trading four or five first round picks for Giannis doesn't mean that they won't. But if you're tra. If you're going into that, you're trading best young players, all your draft assets, you're going to want Giannis. But guys, I'm telling you, I got multiple people from teams with rings. You know, these are not guys who've been in the job five minutes. Okay, telling me they don't necessarily know if that would happen. That with two, with two potential postseasons left, you got this year and next year with Giannis that you may not. That the Bucks may not have to have agreement from Giannis on where he would go. I would say the guy's been there 12 years. Like you're going to have to work with him. But I'm telling you, people are saying maybe not this whole situation. I don't know if what he's getting traded for, I can't tell what his value is. I can't tell this whole thing is off from the normal modus operandi. That's my bottom line that I'm. That I'm rambling through here right now.
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C
Hey, this is not Chris Paul and the Clippers. Like, this is the relationship between Giannis and the Bucks. Will never. Will say will never because we. You never, never say never. But the one thing that Giannis does have, and that can also play into what you said, Wendy, is let's say he nails it down to two teams. The one thing that the Dallas Mavericks did not do last year when talking to the Lakers was not even just opening it up, per se, but we are having serious discussions with two teams and we are letting you two teams know it. So put your blind bids in and then we go from there. If Giannis says, I want to go to New York or Golden State or New York and San Antonio or San Antonio, whatever it is, whatever iterations it is, and he's giving you a list of two, then you can extract a little bit more. But so much of that has to happen because, Wendy, he hasn't even issued a firm trade request.
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B
That's right. To this point, that's true. And I don't think one is coming in the short term. So, I mean, not to say they wouldn't get traded, but like I don't think, as you said earlier, I don't think he wants to do it.
- [22:10]
C
More Hoop Collective podcast after this.
- [22:14]
B
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- [23:49]
Okay, the Chris Paul thing, I It's been a couple of days. By the time this pod comes out, it'll been a couple of days. Vince. I'm not mean. The Clippers handled this horrifically. I don't even think that's controversial. Is it like, is that even a discussion point?
- [24:03]
C
No, I think it shows maybe the desperation of how they wanted to get out of the Chris Paul business. Like one thing that I was told was they had talked to him as much as maybe 10 or 11 times throughout the season about the stuff that he had been doing or saying or trying to hold. Like Shamshirani has said in his report yesterday about holding everybody accountable. Can you imagine how to some degree insufferable someone has to be in your eyes for you to say, you know what, we're stuck here in Atlanta. You could just go home. Like, we're not even going to wait. It's not like Chris Paul's playing 30 minutes a night. It shows you the level of exhaustion that the Clippers have taken felt from this. And we are only 20 games into the season. What was Chris Paul doing that they were had they were so dried up with him for them to do that? I'm not blaming Chris Paul. I'm saying it was handled poorly. I'm saying how desperate were they to do that, knowing that they were going to take a public hit?
- [25:09]
B
I know.
- [25:09]
C
Unless Lawrence Frank had no idea he.
- [25:11]
B
Was going to be. Do we actually believe that they decided on Sunday that they were.
- [25:15]
A
No, no, no.
- [25:16]
C
They didn't decide on Sunday. No, no.
- [25:18]
A
They, they were clearly apprehensive about it in the summer. Right. When did they sign him? It was like late July.
- [25:24]
B
Yeah. It was later than that.
- [25:26]
A
Yeah. They made it clear in like the Press release, press conference. Like, he's coming in without a guarantee of minutes. You know, he was a guy, he started off.
- [25:32]
B
Yeah. They announced in the press release he's coming in as a reserve point guard.
- [25:35]
A
Yeah. So I think this is an example of like, maybe trust in your gut and your instinct. I think they knew that the chemicals of the situation could lead to this if he was not playing that much, if they were struggling, if the personalities within the coaching staff and the team wouldn't respond well to a reserve player with star level opinions about, you know, an operation that, you know, probably doesn't mix with the way Chris Paul likes his operations to go. Like, if they kind of seem to have an indication it might turn out this way over the summer, maybe they should have just, you know, trusted an instinct that, that, you know, Lawrence Frank probably in a quieter moment would say, you know, we maybe kind of saw it coming.
- [26:15]
B
Yeah. Look, first off, Sham said that Ty Lue hadn't talked to him for some period of time.
- [26:22]
C
I have a theory why that is, but go ahead.
- [26:24]
B
I know Ty Lue a little bit. I covered him. Ty Lue does not shy away from confrontation. Okay. Ty Lue wants confrontation to a certain extent. Like, famously, in my world, ty Lue jumped LeBron at halftime of Game 7 of 2016 finals because he was pissed that LeBron, who was in the middle of a generational run, he thought LeBron needed to do more. In fact, LeBron walked out of the locker room at Game 7 of the seminal moment of his life, shouldn't say his life, of his career, pissed at Ty, cursing him out because Ty had no problem without a long term contract as the Coach.
- [27:11]
Getting into LeBron. This is. TY does not have a problem with confrontation. And yet he's like, I ain't talking to you anymore. So, okay, so that's number one. I would just say this, guys. They left on Sunday for a 10 day, five game road trip. Then they decided that they wanted to send him home. No, you didn't decide when the wheels hit the ground in Miami. Come on, that's. I got to throw a flag on that. But whatever. They got to say what they got to say, like, I don't begrudge Lawrence. He's got to say what he's got to say. He takes the blame. He doesn't want anybody else to take the blame. It's fine. I would just say that I'm pretty sure that Chris Paul was being Chris.
- [27:47]
C
Paul, and that's great. And here's the thing. Chris Paul is the Adult in the room. In every room that he's in, he's the adult in the room. You can be the adult in the room. You can't be the elderly man in the room.
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A
Well, you know, he started off.
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B
That's very well said.
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A
This is the first time he's ever been Chris Paul, to your point, while not being on the floor because he started 82 games for the spurs last year. The year before he was on the warriors, he played a major role to the point when they actually moved into the bench. It was the first time he'd ever come off the bench in his entire career. So he's always done that, but also been like, hey, I'm gonna play 34 minutes tonight. And everything I'm saying I'm gonna help do. If he's also doing that well, you know, sitting in the back of the room, he suddenly just is looked at as an assistant coach who doesn't seem to be meshing with the coaching staff. So.
- [28:31]
C
And you're. You're fostering that Jeff Van Gundy, Larry Drew, Tyronna.
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B
Talk about adults.
- [28:37]
C
And Brian Shaw. Wait, and then on top of that, you're fussing at Kawhi Leonard. You think. You think Kawhi Leonard. Trying to hear this. And. Do you really. And let's. And, guys, let's rip the band aid off. Do you really think. Damn. James Harden is trying to listen to Chris Paul? Do you think that Chris Paul wants to play on a team where James Harden is the starting point guard and I'm only getting a handful of minutes in a game? Come on, guys.
- [29:04]
B
Well, again, if you're 16 and 5 and everybody's like, hey, man, let's see if we can make a run, okay? But when you're 5 and 16, like, this is one thing I've been trying. I've been telling to people about this year, because people keep asking about LeBron. I'm like, guys, LeBron is doing, like, five things he's never done before. He's never played on a team where the other. Where another guy's been in the centerpiece. He's never played on a. You know, he had two injuries in the off season. He's never had an off season where he's had two injuries. He's never had a season where he's, you know, not had a training camp. He's never had a season where the team did really, really well when he wasn't out there on the court, where, I mean, there's teams that are, like, crawling along, you know, begging for him to come back out on the court. That's what he's used to. He's not, you know, he's not coming on a team where he's a leading scorer in the history of the NBA, he comes on, two of the top 10 scorers in the league are already out there. More to be at full speed. Like, what you're asking LeBron to do is completely, completely out of, of what he has done for 20 years. I offer you Chris Paul. He has never been on a team that has been 15 games under 500 six weeks into the season. He's never been on a team that's expected to be in the top two or three, that is in the bottom three. Like. And by the way, neither with the Clippers. The Clippers weren't planning on this. This whole thing is upside down. So it's upside down. And you're surprised that, that this didn't go the way that everybody thought. You know, I, you know, case closed. I don't know. But I know one thing, and you said it, Vince. I don't. I think a situation, a critical mass was reached where, Whether it was 11pm or 4am or 6am or whatever, Chris was not going to be, you know, with the team in Atlanta for the game. I think that was the bottom line.
- [30:44]
C
Y' all two are married. I'm not. So you guys can't hearken back to any reference that I'm going to say because your memory could not carry you this long. You have all reached points where I don't want to hear anything else that you have to say ever again. I could have loved you my whole life, but have reached a point where, lady, I don't want to hear from you anymore. And she's looking at me like, you know what, guy? I'm sick of you too. And it just has to. It is not even like a blow up. It is just, you have reached a point where you both are like, I give up. That's my love.
- [31:24]
B
Doctor, there was an amazing moment one time in a press conference with Slater.
- [31:29]
A
Uh, oh, oh, that's right.
- [31:32]
B
Was it Draymond or was it Clay?
- [31:36]
A
If you tell me what it is, I could tell you which.
- [31:38]
B
Well, I remember this was before you were married. And the. I think it was Draymond. You know, it was some, you know, tough situation he was going to probably with Kerr. And he was like, you know, he was saying to you, I think it was Draymond. Please correct me. Well, have you ever been in a situation where blah, blah, blah, and you're like, maybe with a female.
- [31:57]
A
That was Draymond.
- [31:59]
B
Okay, what was it? What was the.
- [32:03]
A
I'm trying to specifically remember.
- [32:06]
B
Happened so many times.
- [32:07]
A
Yeah, there's been some back and forth.
- [32:09]
B
But yeah, I think he was like talking about his relationship, I think, with Kerr or whatever, and he's like, haven't you ever been in this situation? He was talking to you and you were like, maybe with a.
- [32:19]
I remember Slater saying that that was before he can even grow a beard. So I'm not even. I was young Slater. All right. Speaking of the warriors, things aren't going great and Steph is hurting. They're on the road.
- [32:34]
A
Yeah. No, maybe they'll.
- [32:36]
B
Maybe they'll win by 30 tonight. That's what happens on this pod usually.
- [32:38]
A
But even if they do, they're 12 and 11, you know.
- [32:41]
B
Right.
- [32:42]
A
Just that it doesn't solve the offensive issues completely. I mean, to me, when they're at their worst, you can tell with when Steve Curry is just rotationally searching when you're going out of the game the other night. And there was some positive moments, but you also look like Seth Curry showed up on their doorstep, you know, two days ago, and he played 17 bench minutes. He played well. He shot it well.
- [33:02]
B
I mean, I know he was with him in the whole preseason, but that's usually not a good idea when you sign a guy off the street and he immediately plays 17 minutes. Yeah.
- [33:08]
A
And like Spencer played well enough in that second half, you know, rally where they came from 22 down to like briefly take the lead, that, you know, there's a lot of local criticism that Pat Spencer, a two way guard, should have been playing over Pajemsky down the stretch to the point that like, that is to me is always a signal of like, Steve Kerr's in a. In a search because things aren't working how they need it to. And the young guys are struggling, the old guys are, you know, hobbled to various degrees and there's building frustration. And you guys have probably seen it in the press conferences where Jimmy Butler and Draymond Green are just barbecuing the defense on a regular basis. Steve Kerr is going up and saying, yeah, that's an issue. But the offense is a bigger issue. Look at the stats, look at the turnover.
- [33:47]
B
I'll give you a stat right here. Okay. Slater of the teams, because they're. They're 23rd in offense right now.
- [33:53]
A
Yeah.
- [33:53]
B
Okay. And they're 11 and 11 of the teams in the bottom 10 in the offense. Okay. You know, for all we say about defense wins championships. Well, offense wins games in the regular season. Of the bottom 10 teams, the only team that is within three games of 500 are the Warriors. Every, I mean, we're talking about the 5 and 16 Nets, the 7 and 13 Jazz, the 9 and 12 Bulls, the 9 and 13 Grizzlies, the 9, the 3 and 19 Pelicans, the 5 and 17 Kings. I could go on. These are the bottom 10 offensive teams. And then you got the warriors, who are 11, 11. You could argue that they are overachieving considering that offense, that, that offense is everybody else who's this bad in offense is, you know, much worse off.
- [34:40]
A
They are extraordinarily bad right now when Steph is off the floor and that's when he's in a game and he's just on the bench or right now he's just out of the lineup. And I think more and more year over year, the way the roster's built and the way some of the younger guys want to play. And the second co star, they brought in, Jimmy Butler, who was, you know, good in the non step minutes last year, but they want to play a style that is not as conducive to the motion, the flowing, the, you know, pass first or, you know, like 300 passes a game type approach. It's more isolation, heavy pick and roll, stationary, you know, shooters in the corner. And it's just.
- [35:19]
B
Jimmy's having a good. Would you argue. I think Jimmy's. He's having a good year. Right. Would you, would you disagree?
- [35:24]
A
I mean, he's really like banged up because he's, you know.
- [35:27]
B
Right. He's questionable tonight. I don't know if he's playing.
- [35:29]
A
Yeah, well, he's got his knees or his back's been so. Or his ankles had, you know.
- [35:33]
B
Well, that's Jimmy. I mean, I don't have to tell you.
- [35:35]
A
Yeah, he had a rough fall the other night, but anyway. Yeah, I would say he has, but, you know, this is. I don't. We don't need to get too deep into the youth of this roster, but we can. I mean, that's been the problem. Right. You know, they were supposed to at least lift him to some degree. And the Jonathan Kaminga situation is completely unresolved and can't be resolved till at least January 15th. But there was the five game, you know, sunset to start the season where there was at least a, you know, slight belief he could be the wing they, they've wanted, but that's completely faded. Pajemski has not taken a leap at all. And this is what you have, an average team, you know, and you look, Steph has been sick, ineffective in some losses and now has a thigh contusion. If Steph Curry had played 20 of 21 games and, and had been, you know, as great as he's been in some of their wins, they would have a better record. But he's also going to turn 38 this season.
- [36:30]
C
It's weird. It's almost like if we told you, star player is hurt, team barely hanging on when he's there, team capsizes when he's gone. Doesn't that describe Warriors, Bucks, a couple other teams that came into the season hoping that this year was going to be the year where, you know what, if things break right, we'll have a shot at Oklahoma City. Things break right, we'll be in the Eastern Conference finals. You don't win with old anymore. The game is too fast for that. I think the game is too fast.
- [37:04]
A
They're also small, short. When you think about their best teams, right, you know, sure, they played small ball death lineup, but guess who was at the wings? Andre Iguodala, Kevin Durant, Klay Thompson, a huge two guard. Now it's, it's just small. It's positionally small and no center. And by the way, they tried the stretch center thing this year and said, hey, you know, they'll go away from the double big that has the looney, the Boguts, you know, kind of your bruiser inside because they just feel modern wise. They have to, to, to have a stretch center. Well, Al Horford has really been missing all, all season. You, he's had like two Al Horford type games. So that's another problem, right? It's, it get. You can get back to your point about the age, but it's also the, in a, in an upsizing NBA. It's, it's a really tiny team.
- [37:48]
C
No, and I think when it's, for me, when I think about the, the best teams in the league, the three best teams in the league, or record wise, let's say three or four. Oklahoma City, Houston, Denver, Detroit. It's whatever iteration, right? The thing that they have in common, they are all relying on their draft picks. They're high, high level, very young and very big draft picks because they got the draft right and it's just young. Like even Denver trending towards, I guess you could say older. But when you got the best player on earth, you can kind of flip it around a little bit. Oklahoma City's got Chet Holmgren playing the four like height wise he's supposed to be something. Like he's skinny, but height wise it's supposed to be something else. Like to your point, Slater, youth and versatile size wins in this league. And if you are old and you are limited, you're not going to be able to keep up.
- [38:47]
B
Yeah, especially you know, you really need to have depth if you're and your depth ideally cannot be old. Like that's what the issue with the Clippers was. The Clippers thought they had depth, but it was all old depth. So they had to go.
- [38:58]
C
I remember when Wendy came on here during training camp, it was like, guys, I'm telling you.
- [39:04]
I don't want to say it, but I'm ready to buy into the. I'm ready. I'm ready to buy into.
- [39:10]
B
I don't know.
- [39:10]
C
I don't know.
- [39:11]
B
You are so right. I have to raise my hand and take my medicine because like by the way, I've asked some scouts like hey, I feel like such the a hole because I just. And they're like no, they were good in the preseason. Like you know, no, no, nobody saw them. 5 and 16, 6 and 16 now.
- [39:29]
C
More hoop Collective podcast after this.
- [39:35]
B
Meet the computer you can talk to with Copilot on Windows Working, creating and collaborating is as easy as talking. Got writer's block? Share your screen with Copilot Vision to help spark inspiration and use Copilot voice to have a conversation and brainstorm ideas. Or maybe you need some tech help with Copilot Vision. Copilot sees what you see. Let Copilot talk you through step by step guidance so you can master new apps, games and skills faster. Try now@windows.com copilot.
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Experience a membership that backs your business journey with American Express Business Platinum. When you pay with membership rewards points for all or part of an eligible flight booked with a qualifying airline. Through Amex Travel, you can get 35% of those points back up to 1 million points back per calendar year. American Express Business Platinum there's nothing like it. Terms apply. Learn more@americanexpress.com Business Platinum.
- [40:34]
A
This episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios.
- [40:37]
B
Upcoming comedy Ella McKay from Academy Award winning writer director James L. Brooks.
- [40:42]
A
Emma Mackey plays Ella McKay, an idealistic young woman who juggles family and work.
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B
In a story about the people you love and how to survive them. Featuring an all star cast including Jamie.
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A
Lee Curtis, Jack Loudon, Kumal Nanjani, Iowa Debris Julie Kafner. With Albert Brooks and Woody Harrelson.
- [41:00]
B
Ella McKay in theaters December 12th.
- [41:02]
A
Get tickets now Foreign.
- [41:08]
B
Speaking of Holmgren, you just wrote a piece about him going back to your OKC roots.
- [41:15]
This week, Slater. And.
- [41:19]
You know, you described a little bit about what he went through with that broken hip, which was a year ago, like, pretty. Almost exactly a year ago. Maybe you timed it for a year ago or I don't know.
- [41:29]
A
But yeah, it was like early November when he broke it. He came back in like early February.
- [41:35]
B
But yeah, I mean, and he was talking about just how he, you know, I think you described it like, how he felt like he was laying in that bed and his body was wasting away. And like, I do, I do agree, I think people don't know and like, certainly an athlete is going to keep his recovery private, but, you know, nobody saw what he looked like when he was going and walking on that leg for the first time in weeks and months. And, you know, by the way, a few months later, you're expected to like, you know, body up in the, in the playoffs. So. But basically your point, not to take away from what you said, but was like, they won the championship and he got a max contract, but he was like, I'm not playing good basketball.
- [42:15]
A
Yeah. He watched film of himself this summer and was like, oh, you know, like, watch him try to drive on Miles Turner in the playoffs. Like, oh, man, you look slow out there. You look indecisive. And, and to the point of like when he broke the hip. Do y' all remember opening night last season? You might not. They played the Nuggets. He had like 25, you know, 12, five blocks. They, they beat Jokic. Jokic has 16 points. And it felt like, you know, an arrival. A little bit of like, ooh, this might be a different chat. And you look at those 10 games before the hip, he looked like an all Star. And by the time he got back, the Thunder was still rolling record wise, and he kind of had to fit in. And his, you know, he was in and out of the lineup and his, the way he termed it to me is he was crawling out on the floor on ibuprofen at times late in the season and in playoffs, and he spent the summer building the body back up to, to, to where it's at. And I think Jalen Williams missing the early part of this season has, has creaked open the door. But I would say, look, they're 21 and one. They got to have two all stars, right? He's currently also the Vegas defensive player of the year favorite because, you know, of, of Wimby being out of the lineup. But it's a unique spot in the career. And I would ask you two with your, you know, reservoir knowledge, maybe there was a 2005 Central Division story we can go to here. But young guy entering the fourth professional season of his career, right. I know he didn't play as a rookie. He's been paid, he's been a major starter, contributor to a title team, but he feels very underdeveloped, like he has so much personal growth that he's still looking at. But typically you see those early lottery picks and, you know, they, they haven't won a title, they haven't checked that box, they haven't got the big contract. But he has all that in his bag already. Yet it's like he feels like, you know, he's very, very early in his development. Individually, I agree.
- [44:04]
B
I think, you know, he's also a guy who, I don't know how much he actually weighs.
- [44:12]
But. And he's never going to be a guy who's going to be bulky, but he was a guy who on that frame was going to add to it. I mean, you look at how much Victor is added. You know, Chet lost his whole first year due to the foot injury and then was derailed in year four because of the hip injury. And he's basically just fighting back. So he's probably like, you know, I thought by the time I was going to be, you know, in my, you know, because I think he's 23, I'm sure. But I'm sure when he came into the NBA and he goes, well, in four years, I'm going to have gotten my body to a certain level and, you know, I'll have been an all Star and all this stuff. Like, you know, he hasn't been able to do that. You know, he hasn't, you know, gotten that sort of stuff. So I get it. And I also think this is what Sam Presti was talking about beginning of the season, where he was talking about how they had to have a growth mindset that they weren't defending. Can't remember. You know, he had a great line that I'm sure he crafted over weeks in the off season. Like, we're not defending a championship or, you know, whatever. We're trying to earn another one. And like, you know, for guys like Jalen Williams who are, he's coming back from his own injury, but still definitely carving his niche as a player. And Chad Holmgren, like, those are messages that land because I'm sure they're not players of the players they want to be. Shane looks Like a pretty much of a finished product. I think that dude is. The polish is shining on that dude with everything he's worked on his game. But like, that's what's so freaking scary about this team. Is that what you're talking about here? Which is that he does have all this stuff, but also has this growth mindset.
- [45:46]
A
What else with this team though is, you know, Sam Presti has, has tried to reinforce the asset base enough to where he, you know, maybe they can still keep a pretty full rotation three to four to five years down the line as Chad is 24, 25, 26. But at the same time, like when they step into these big extensions which next season him and Jalen Williams step into, and that two years from now Shay's goes, you know, into like the 60 million range, you're going to lose the ability in the apron era to have those well paid vets around them, right? The Hartensteins, the Carusos, the Dorts, potentially. I mean, we'll see. Like, you know, Sam is again trying to fight against this, but I think his growth is, you know, into more of a scoring talent. Particularly Chetz is going to matter more probably for the Thunder two, three, four seasons from now, but. But they're still going to like they're trying to build a dynasty here. So like, I do think it really, even if in the current confines of the juggernaut that they are like, you know, him exploding into a 23 point per game scorer that can get his own a little bit or some of that might not matter now. I do think for the arc of this potential dynasty, it is really big.
- [46:54]
C
You know, it's weird you asked the question. So I went into my mental Rolodex of players who won a championship, was not the main guy very young and still wanted to grow. And two guys popped up in my head like modern, modernly, two guys popped up and none of them actually, none of them completely fit what Chet is talking about. One of them was Rajon Rondo in Boston where he was like the fourth starter behind Pierce and Garnett and Ray Allen and was the young guy but still had a lot of room to grow. And by the time he became the Engine, those guys were already phasing and aging out. But he was still sort of, by the time 2010 came along, those guys were phasing out to the point that Rondo had to be way more of an engine in the playoffs than he needed to be. And that's why they dragged themselves to the finals and upset Wendy's Cavs along the way. The other guy, he killed them. He killed them, killed them. Killed like, like the triple double in game six. I think he had a triple double in game six against Cleveland. I felt like it was a triple double at home.
- [47:59]
B
I feel like he had a 20 rebound game.
- [48:02]
C
That sounds right.
- [48:04]
B
That sounds right. I'm go look while you're making your.
- [48:06]
C
Point, the other guy, and this is way, way on the other end of the spectrum is a very young Kobe Bryant, like just fitting the profile of what you said, gotten paid, had a hunger for more, won a championship. And after 2000, where Shaquille O' Neal was arguably the best version of any big man we have ever seen from 2001 to 2002, Kobe Bryant was his equal because Kobe's game had ascended so much that he didn't have to be sidekick. He became co star. Now has Chet reached that point where he's going to be co star to Shay Gilders Alexander at the absolute peak in prime of his career? Who knows? But to be honest, he may have to be in the playoffs. If this Denver team is as good as they can look when Aaron Gordon gets back or what Houston can look like when everything is put together over there, they may need Chet to be a higher version of himself. Even if J Dub is exactly who he looked like last year and taking minor steps himself.
- [49:12]
B
These are all great points. You want to hear Rondo's stats in the series against the Cavs in 2010? LeBron's last days as a Cav, the first time around. Game 1, 27 points, 6 rebounds, 12 assists. Game 2, 13 points, 4 rebounds, 19 assists. Game 3, 18 points, 5 rebounds, 8 assists. They lost that one by 20.
- [49:36]
C
They got rocked that game.
- [49:37]
B
I don't think he even played a full game. Yeah. Game four, 29 points, 18 rebounds, 13 assists. I remember watching the film from that game, Vince. Out of those 18 rebounds, I think he didn't even jump for like six or seven of them where he just saw where the ball was coming, plucked it off the ground and went tearing off to the other end. Just killed him. Game five, which was infamous in Cleveland, which they won by 30, 16 points, seven assists. Didn't play a full game. Game six, closeout game, LeBron goes off the court, takes off his Jersey, et cetera, 21 points, 3 rebounds, 12 assists, 5 steals.
- [50:18]
C
He was a monster.
- [50:19]
A
Good series.
- [50:20]
B
That dude was a killer. Killer at that point. Yeah. And by the way, like, I know you compare Kobe to anybody, it's you kind of get, get People's backs up. But.
- [50:30]
Kobe at the three peat was different than Kobe. When they made the, when they won the back to back. He was a completely different player. And I mean that's a long way to go for Holmgren. But you know.
- [50:43]
Holmgren is a guy who is being forced into a role a little bit. He can do more than he's shown because he's on a team where it's not needed. He stars in that role and he's being paid in that role. But I mean he is kind of a role player. If you can be a max contract role player. He's kind of a role player.
- [51:03]
A
Dagnall just kind of termed it Florida floor and ceiling last year. The playoffs are the floor that makes him so valuable, which is, you know, he met, he said there was. He took 10 really good shots away from the Pacers in game seven. They won the finals partly because of his rim protection. Five blocks, three deters, two times he counted. They just like kind of weaved out of the lane because he's there. He's like, we win the championship partly because he knocks 10 away as a rim protector. And then Chet even feeling his worst as a center or you know, a stretch four, stretch five, however you want to play the lineup can just go on the other end of the floor plan himself on the wing or the corner. And the other team has to respect the three point shot. So that is an immensely valuable floor player. But the ceiling is what makes it interesting long term.
- [51:45]
B
I felt like that's a great point. I felt like Chet was underappreciated in how good he was defensively in the finals last year.
- [51:52]
C
It comes to mind, Wendy, and it's not going to sound like blasphemy. Maybe it will. But I always got very young Kevin Garnett vibes from Chet Holmgren defensively just because that would make his day.
- [52:08]
B
Because he grew up in Minneapolis, you know, admiring kg.
- [52:13]
C
Just the space that he could cover and the fact that sometimes it's not the shots that you block, it's the shots that you prevent from being taken. And you just force a bad shot. You force somebody, you know, a swing, swing like he was legit everywhere. And he disrupted all of that in the way that if you dropped a 17 year old Kevin Garnett into the league and he doesn't have to play small forward and he can play power forward coming out, that's what I feel like KG would have looked like if he came into a team that was ready to win.
- [52:42]
B
Yeah. And look, if you Know, his stats in the finals last year were not great. He really struggled shooting the ball. And I think it was because he was being asked to do so much defensively, and that's probably what he was referring to. Slater.
- [52:57]
C
Well.
- [52:57]
B
And.
- [52:57]
A
Yeah. And also just did not physically feel like himself. You know, I think. I think that that's the main thing. And, Wendy, this is right up your alley. I mean, is he the likeliest American center and starting center in the 2028 Olympics?
- [53:11]
B
I have said that Grant Hill and Arab Spoelstra need to lock that down. What I. I said they got a lockdown. So the Thompson twins. There was some interview. I don't exactly have it. The Thompson twins gave some comments in some interview about maybe playing for Jamaica because they're of Jamaican descent and AJ Debancer is also of Jamaican descent. And there's been. I don't think they've actually had a real conversation about it, but I think, like Thompson twins and A.J. deBancer, that, you know, I was like. I was like, grant, go lock down Ahmed and Asar Thompson because we're going to need those dudes. I don't know if it's in 28 or 32, but we're going to need those dudes. And absolutely. The big. The big situation. You know, they basically beg, borrowed and steeled to. To rent him bead for Paris. And by the way, he was really important in the game against Serbia in the second half. It was all worth it because he played four or five very important minutes there. But I don't think he can count on Embiid. And so, yeah, you need Chet, if for no other reason, then you're going to have to deal with Victor. You know, the French. I remember the day after the gold medal game in Paris, I wrote a story where the. The lead. The story was, Hollywood loves a trilogy because we may see one. Because Paris or France versus the US In Tokyo. France versus the US In Paris could very, very well be France versus the US for all of it in. In. In la. And Victor's gonna be ready to go. So, yes, definitely need to activate Holmgren on the. On the national team.
- [54:56]
We do have some. Some obviously upcoming American stars that, you know, the Thompson twins to be excited about, et cetera. I would. I would lock down AJ Demands, too. Don't let him off the shore. We do not have the luxury. It's a lot closer international basketball than people give a credit for. All right, Slater, you got to go off to the arena. Vinnie, thank you so much for your insight. Thank you to Jackson for putting it all together. Thank you for listening and watching to the Hoop Collective. We'll talk to you next week.
- [55:36]
C
Hi there. Surprise. 30 for 30 presents. Booyah. Can I get a witness from the congregation? You can't stop authenticity.
- [55:46]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [55:47]
A
Stewart was exactly like you saw him on camera, off camera. He dialed it up 10%.
- [55:52]
C
Can you imagine the impact of young black boys and girls looking at that going? I feel seen. He changed the culture. He changed sports. Booyah.
- [56:01]
B
Presented by modelo. Premieres on December 10th at 9pm Eastern on ESPN.