Wild Start To NBA Season + Why The East Is Wide Open

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Wild Start To NBA Season + Why The East Is Wide Open"

Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
November 17, 2025
Host: Brian Windhorst
Guests: Tim Bontemps, Ben McMahon

Main Theme

This episode dives into the unusually dramatic and competitive start to the NBA season. The crew marvels at a week packed with overtime thrillers, discusses breakout rookies and surprising team performances, and examines why the Eastern Conference feels more open and unpredictable than ever.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Chaotic & Entertaining Week of NBA Action

• String of OT Games & Comebacks (00:34 – 06:12):

  • Several games went into overtime, including Dallas vs. Portland, Jazz vs. Bulls, and Rockets vs. Magic.
  • The Celtics barely survived after James Harden's 11 straight points and a missed buzzer-beater.
  • The Hawks pulled off a wild comeback against the Suns, erasing a 22-point deficit in the 4th quarter.
  • “Basketball was basketballing.” (Brian Windhorst, 07:30)

• Star Individual Performances (04:19 – 05:12):

  • Utah’s Keonte George with a 33-point, game-winning double-OT performance.
  • Lowry Markkanen scores 47 for the Jazz; Kobe White returns with a strong showing for Chicago.
  • Cooper Flagg (Dallas) puts up a monster 21/8/5 line as an 18-year-old rookie.

• League Pass and Viewing Experience (08:21 – 11:36):

  • Discussion about the value of League Pass, new streaming experiences, and gripes with the Amazon quad-box setup.
  • “There is a routine greatness that is happening in the league and you can make fun of it all you want… there’s a routine greatness happening.” (Brian Windhorst, 11:33)

2. East is Wide Open: Who’s Arriving and Who’s Vulnerable?

• Atlanta Hawks’ Surprising Run (13:46 – 24:22):

  • Hawks finish a 4–0 Western Conference road trip.
  • Defensive improvement since Trae Young’s injury; 7–2 in his absence, with Jalen Johnson emerging as a breakout star.
  • Speculation: Hawks’ trial period without Trae Young may have future implications for his role/trade market.
  • “If you go from Trae Young, who’s one of the worst guard defenders in the league, to Nikhil Alexander-Walker, who’s (in the) top 20%... they’re rolling out a massive lineup now.” (Tim Bontemps, 21:28)

• Detroit Pistons Hot Streak (17:17 – 18:03):

  • Pistons win 9 straight (many without Cade Cunningham), jump to 1st in East.
  • Danis Jenkins looks like a “legit rotation player” and “might be better than Dennis Schroder right now.” (Tim Bontemps, 17:44)

• New York Knicks Injury Troubles (25:23 – 28:57):

  • OG Anunoby (hamstring) and Jalen Brunson (ankle) both sidelined.
  • “They don’t, you know, they’re a top-heavy team...if multiple of those guys are out, they’re going to have some stuff to answer for.” (Tim Bontemps, 27:29)

• Cleveland Cavaliers’ Efficiency Issues (29:49 – 35:46):

  • Evan Mobley’s improved counting stats belie a drop in efficiency, mirroring team-wide issues.
  • Cavs are scraping by thanks to Donovan Mitchell’s stellar play, but missing Garland and lacking bench offense.
  • “They are not the team they were a year ago… their margin for error has really shrunk.” (Brian Windhorst, 33:08)

• Orlando Magic’s Progress and Setbacks (37:51 – 39:52):

  • Magic look improved, but Paolo Banchero’s groin injury and a dramatic OT loss to Houston.
  • Game recap: “That was the final five seconds of this game, which was crazy.” (Tim Bontemps, 38:27)

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3. Spotlight on Individual Stars

• Kevin Durant’s Impact on Houston (39:16 – 44:34):

  • Thriving as Houston’s go-to scorer; Rockets now boast best offense in NBA.
  • “He’s the best mid-range shooter in the history of the game.” (Ben McMahon, 41:36)
  • “If you went in a lab and created the ideal person to be a scoring machine… you would spit out Kevin Durant.” (Tim Bontemps, 41:46)

• Cooper Flagg’s Historic Rookie Campaign (46:05 – 54:11):

  • Comparing Flagg’s 18-year-old production to LeBron, Kobe, T-Mac, Giannis; only LeBron had similar early impact.
  • “The only comparison to what he’s doing as an 18-year-old is LeBron.” (Ben McMahon, 47:26)
  • Addressing criticism and trade speculation: The talent is real, expectations should be age-adjusted, comparisons to Hall-of-Famers.

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4. Other Team & Player Notes

• Phoenix Suns:

  • Optimism about young coach Jordan Ott and Devin Booker’s happiness, but note their success comes against weaker opponents (14:23 – 16:25).

• Golden State Warriors’ Developmental Wins (54:40 – 55:57):

  • Moses Moody (32 pts, 7 threes in a quarter) breaks out; Will Richard and Quentin Post also noted as late-pick success stories.

• Thunder’s Ascendancy (57:27 – End):

  • Discussion about OKC’s 70-win pace, depth despite injuries, and playoff readiness.
  • “It’s the Thunder and then it’s everybody else…13 and 1 on the season… point differential is astronomical.” (Tim Bontemps, 59:25)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Hawks’ Big Week:
  “This was just a Sunday night and arguably the third best night of basketball of this week.” (Brian Windhorst, 06:05)

• On League Pass Value:
  “If you just enjoyed League Pass, got your money’s worth this week.” (Tim Bontemps, 08:40)

• On Jalen Johnson: “I would bet on it being Jalen Johnson [for Player of the Week].” (Tim Bontemps, 20:36)

• On Kevin Durant’s Scoring: “He’s the best mid-range shooter in the history of the game.” (Ben McMahon, 41:36)
  “If you went in a lab and created the ideal person to be a scoring machine in the NBA, you would spit out Kevin Durant.” (Tim Bontemps, 41:46)

• On Cooper Flagg: “There’s literally never been an 18-year-old who played a significant role on a playoff game. The closest… was Kobe… Cooper’s now done [20 pts, no turnovers] twice.” (Ben McMahon, 47:26)

• On Thunder’s Dominance: “Should I make hotel reservations for the Finals in Oklahoma City?” (Brian Windhorst, 59:56)

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Important Timestamps

• [00:35] Start of actual basketball discussion
• [01:50] Recap of wild NBA week starts
• [04:19] Double OT Jazz/Bulls and Keonte George’s game-winner
• [06:12] Steph vs. Victor in San Antonio; crazy highlight nights
• [13:46] Hawks’ 4–0 road trip sparks East discussion
• [17:17] Pistons’ resurgence and Danis Jenkins’ emergence
• [25:23] Knicks injuries and upcoming test
• [29:49] Cavs efficiency drop, Donovan Mitchell’s workload
• [39:16] Magic-Rockets wild game, Kevin Durant’s impact
• [46:05] Cooper Flagg’s stats vs. LeBron as a rookie
• [54:40] Warriors’ young rotation successes
• [57:27] Thunder’s 70-win pace, playoff projections

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Tone & Style

Conversational, energetic, and occasionally irreverent. The hosts mix detailed analysis with friendly ribbing and offhand anecdotes, keeping the basketball conversation both profound and accessible to diehard and casual fans alike.

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This summary captures nearly all essential content, player analysis, team narratives, and standout moments from the episode, providing a thorough and dynamic guide to a wild and wide-open NBA week.

Transcript

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[Brian Windhorst]

Hello. Welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we are doing just about at midnight on the east coast on Sunday night slash Monday morning. Joining us from New York City on the east coast is Tim Botteps.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hello everybody.

[Brian Windhorst]

And joining us from the American Airlines center in Dallas, where he was at an overtime game, one of about seven overtimes that were played in the NBA on Sunday. Seeing the Mavericks beat the Portland trailblazers, it's Ben McMahon.

[Ben McMahon]

Howdy, partners. It was a much needed win for those Dallas Mavericks. You don't want to bleed out too long and, you know, not sure there'll be too many of those, but heck of a night for old Cooper Flag.

[Brian Windhorst]

With all the TV you've had to do in the last week, I'm sure you were glad you didn't have to wear a suit to the game tonight.

[Ben McMahon]

Glad I didn't have to wear a suit and glad I didn't have a double overtime like the Friday night, Friday night's Crisis bowl when the LA Clippers snapped a long losing streak here.

[Brian Windhorst]

Crisis Bowl.

[Ben McMahon]

I stole that one from Steiny.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, that was good. Well, there was some double overtime action in the NBA on Sunday. We'll talk about that in a minute. And actually, I just want to start right there. So if you remember, was it last Monday?

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes. We had all these crazy games.

[Brian Windhorst]

There was three shot, three buzzer beaters and people talked about how like, man, it was one of the great nights in the NBA. Then Wednesday was like a truly great night in the NBA. That would have been like normal, been like maybe the best night of a month or best night two weeks. And there was actually discussion like what night was better, Wednesday night or Monday night. And then I want to present you with Sunday. And I know that, you know, a lot of folks were probably watching the NFL. Of course there's America's favorite sport and it's fine. There was no national television. You know, none of these games were made for TV matchups. It was just a batch of NBA games and In Boston, the Clippers had a shot in the air at the buzzer. It was James Harden. They missed. The Celtics beat him.

[Tim Bontemps]

James Harden scored 11 points in the final 11 seconds. And that shot didn't go in.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's right.

[Ben McMahon]

Wow.

[Brian Windhorst]

And they were. The clippers were down 24 in the second, I think the third quarter, the third quarter and had a, had a shot in the air to, to, to force overtime. The Magic, I thought, had the game one against the Rockets couple times. Yes. And they led the entire game. I was, we actually, I was, we were texting on our chain about how, you know, it's been a pretty amazing week for the Magic and now that would have been a big win. But the Rockets, which we'll talk about later, they exit. You know, Durant hit an incredible three and then Alpi Shangun executed a post up play with less than 2 seconds left. That forced overtime after a crazy scramble that where the Magic got a dunk where they thought they won the game. That was, that led to overtime, which the game was won by the Rockets. The Mavericks game that you were at, McMahon went to overtime. I really don't know exactly what happened at the. I know the Mavericks were behind in the fourth quarter, right? Yeah.

[Ben McMahon]

Honestly, Cooper flag was incredible in crunch time of this game and you know, just your normal 18 year old, 21.8 rebound, 5 assist, you know, a couple blocks in a steal and you know, come up big as a, as a closer type of performance that you see all the time. You know, the kind of thing that might make people reconsider that he would be the sixth player picked in next year's draft.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, don't get ahead of ourselves. Don't get ahead of ourselves. All right then. In Utah on Sunday night, the Jazz beat the Bulls 150 to 147 in double overtime. The game was won by Keonte George. We talked about, I think last week hitting a game winner with, with under a second left in double overtime to finish with 33 points. And Lowry Market only put in 47 in that game. Kobe White coming back from injury and playing, I think. Was that his first game, Bontemps?

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes. First game he was, he was supposed.

[Brian Windhorst]

To have a minute restriction and hit the game. Hit, hit a lay, a driving layup where he shook. I think he shook one of the big white guys. I lost track how many of them.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, listen, Kessler's gone, so there's not as many or not gone, but another.

[Brian Windhorst]

There was another big white guy, I can't remember which one that he shook and hit a shot at the buzzer of the fourth quarter to force overtime. He was so exhausted he could, he could barely walk, but he was making plays all the way down the touch. He played 30 minutes and he had 27 in his first game. So that was in, in Utah. Double overtime game in Utah and then in Phoenix. The hawks won their fifth consecutive game and won by two points over the Suns. Coming back from 22 points down in.

[Tim Bontemps]

The fourth quarter, 953 to go. They were down 22 points. That closed the game on, I believe a 4:43-19 run to win the game.

[Brian Windhorst]

That was just a Sunday night and arguably the third best night of basketball of this week.

[Tim Bontemps]

And you also didn't count the game Friday in San Antonio where Victor and Steph went back and forth down the stretch and each had about six wild highlights.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes. Individually you didn't count the back to back 40 point games that Steph had in that Steph had in San Antonio.

[Tim Bontemps]

Product's pretty awesome.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's all I'll say. Also I made one just because I just to correct the record slightly because I said it incorrectly before. Harden scored the final 11 points for the Clippers in a little over a minute in that game, that game this afternoon in Boston, including one of the greatest plays with a second left that I've ever seen to get a, a wide open three at the buzzer but just missed. And what would have been an epic comeback for the papers, I will say.

[Brian Windhorst]

Markkanen missed 18 shots tonight, which is a lot but not the most shots missed tonight. Jaylen Brown missed 19 shots today, which is a lot. It's a lot but not the Most tonight. No, McMahon, that was your game where Shaden Sharp missed 20 shots.

[Ben McMahon]

He made a lot too. 12, not 20.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, this is a lot of basketball.

[Tim Bontemps]

One of them was a late dunk that he tried to throw down and missed would have been pretty epic highlight.

[Brian Windhorst]

Basketball was basketballing and so look Bontemps, I know on your social media this year you've been talking about just the routine interesting things that are happening in the league and you know I'm a big believer. I'm a trust just in, in my everyday life. I'm a big believer in the, in the, the satisfaction and the, and the appreciation of what I call ordinary time. I like you know, seriously, I like, you know enjoying ordinary time is a philosophy.

[Tim Bontemps]

Window's a simple man McMahon.

[Ben McMahon]

Listen, I do enjoy, I enjoy Bond Timps enjoying the awesomeness of NBA basketball. It's like the, his, his Push away from the USWB Persona on a daily. It's good stuff.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. I mean, seriously, like, I mean, when I'm not trying to be hokey, but like, if you had league pass, which by the way, is 100 bucks. I know there's a lot of things that cost a lot of money, especially by media. I'm not saying it's nothing, but if you just enjoyed league pass, got your.

[Tim Bontemps]

Money'S worth this week.

[Brian Windhorst]

For this week.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

Which, by the way, on Saturday night, I got to enjoy a Minnesota Timberwolves Denver Nuggets game.

[Ben McMahon]

How'd you do that, by the way?

[Brian Windhorst]

Where the court was. It had the Prince court. Where? I don't know. I don't know. The Purple Rain court or whatever. Yeah, Bon Temps. I think they should have done that when the 76ers were in town because the biggest Prince fan in the NBA is Nick Nurse.

[Tim Bontemps]

That is. That's true.

[Brian Windhorst]

Nick Nurse plays in a Prince cover band in the off season.

[Ben McMahon]

What concert was he at when Kawhis signed with the Clippers?

[Brian Windhorst]

That was the Arkels.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think it was an Arkels concert. They're a Canadian band.

[Brian Windhorst]

Nick plays in a Prince cover band. Like, I don't think they do like 10 gigs, but I mean they get together and jam.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's true.

[Brian Windhorst]

So I just want to say. But the reason that's remarkable is because when I got it on my television, like a tear fell down my cheek because I haven't been able to watch Timberwolves or Nuggets non national television games.

[Tim Bontemps]

You had to get the millionaire jailbreak McMahon to break through the blackout rules.

[Ben McMahon]

Is that what happened?

[Tim Bontemps]

I think so.

[Brian Windhorst]

Also, do you pull some strings?

[Tim Bontemps]

High level tier.

[Brian Windhorst]

I was able to execute it without getting help.

[Ben McMahon]

Was the phrase do you know who I am? Uttered?

[Brian Windhorst]

No, No. I just maneuvered.

[Tim Bontemps]

Didn't need to phrase. Didn't need to utter.

[Brian Windhorst]

I just did maneuvering. Also, I will say using the new Amazon, I. I have. I get it on Amazon Prime. That's new for me. But when a game ends, they will just go to another game. That's kind of close. They'll just roll you. You can just hang there and they'll. They'll bring you the basketball. You don't even have to mess around.

[Ben McMahon]

Now they don't have the quad box that you could get on YouTube TV.

[Brian Windhorst]

I can't take that.

[Ben McMahon]

But. But hey.

[Tim Bontemps]

Or on. Or on the NBA app, I have.

[Ben McMahon]

To say the NBA apps app. But on Amazon they'll do a little where you've got one big old one and then you got two off to the side.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I don't like. That's the, that's the. I really don't like that about the Amazon setup. If there's any Amazon people listening. Give us the ability to just have four games on instead of this thing where you've got two little games over here and then one extra big game. I can't give me ability to have four on screen.

[Ben McMahon]

I would agree.

[Brian Windhorst]

McMahon is able to do like, he's able to watch like six college football games at once.

[Tim Bontemps]

I love the quad box. Sign me up for the quad guys.

[Brian Windhorst]

You guys are smarter than me. I can't take in all that information. I can't do it. But anyway, the point of all of this is there is a routine greatness that is happening in the league and you can make fun of it all you want. And you know, if you don't, I mean, chances are if you're listening to our podcast in November, you don't have.

[Tim Bontemps]

To enjoy the games.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, but there's a routine greatness happening.

[Ben McMahon]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

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[Brian Windhorst]

For example, this last game we talked about the Hawks, the Hawks just completed Western conference road trip at 4 0. How many eastern teams are going to go 40 on a now it was not I've seen many tough road trips. This was not one of them.

[Ben McMahon]

What were the stops?

[Tim Bontemps]

Clippers, Kings, Jazz on a back to back and then this game against Phoenix, who's been playing well and I thought we were going to come on here and say the Suns have been rolling and playing great up until they have been 10 minutes. Well, I know, I mean at the 10 minute mark of the fourth quarter I was like, man, we're going to be giving the sons their flowers on the pod. And then the game just completely flipped around on its head.

[Ben McMahon]

Hey, this isn't an ESPN research tidbit, but I did confirm it. I was told Devin Booker has smiled more this season than the last two years combined. And I asked him and with a big smile he said it's probably true. So there are some good things going on with Phoenix. You know, they just came through here.

[Tim Bontemps]

They've been playing well.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. Jordan Ott, who is their first year head coach by the way, I just want to say I think the Cavs are missing him. That's not a shot at anybody. I just, I think the Cavs are missing him. He's done a good job of getting them to to, you know. And listen, that ISHP now they have not played a tough, difficult schedule I think at the start of the weekend. I don't remember who they played on Friday at the start of the weekend. I think they'd only beaten one team with a winning record. This would have been their second.

[Tim Bontemps]

So so far they've beaten the Jazz, the Spurs, the Clippers twice, the Pelicans, the Mavericks and the Pacers.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, so one way they have it against the spurs. They beat the Pacers. So the spurs, okay, which, and by.

[Tim Bontemps]

The way, their upcoming schedule is at Portland, Minnesota, San Antonio, Houston, then at Sacramento, and then at Thunder Denver at Lakers at Rockets at Wolves, back to back games at Golden State and then the Lakers. That's up to Christmas. So between now and Christmas we'll see where the Suns are at on Christmas that they'll be. That's a lot of games to against.

[Brian Windhorst]

I agree they'll have a proof of concept but listen Mattish be a promised improved basketball like they've been taking care.

[Tim Bontemps]

Of business against who they should be beaten like that. There's no, there's no crime in that like that's they're doing what they need to do. They don't. It's not like they are in a position to try to you know lose as many games as possible to take advantage of their draft pick. So like you know they've got Devin Booker back playing like an all NBA player and they've got sound defense around them and like they're, they're looking like a solid team but this is going to be a brutal stretch. Like we'll see where they're at in six weeks.

[Ben McMahon]

Ishba promised a pesky hard playing squad that their fans would enjoy watching. They've delivered that so far and the early returns on their young unproven head coaching hire are very encouraging.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right well so on the Hawks so they, they go for no on this road trip. Now their next game they played the Pistons at home on Tuesday.

[Tim Bontemps]

Wednesday.

[Brian Windhorst]

Wednesday.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh wait a minute. I'm sorry, you're right. I.

[Brian Windhorst]

My.

[Tim Bontemps]

I was. I didn't realize it was after midnight. No, I was looking at my thing and I had to move.

[Ben McMahon]

I had to move to correct Bond Timps correction.

[Brian Windhorst]

Hey gotta love that sometimes happened for me.

[Tim Bontemps]

I had to move my thing two days over. I was thinking it was Wednesday but we waited a long time for McMahon.

[Brian Windhorst]

So is that potentially a no? You did.

[Ben McMahon]

No you didn't. You waited a long time.

[Brian Windhorst]

A mid to late round Eastern conference playoffs matchup. Hawks, Pistons.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I mean listen the Pistons. By the way the Pistons didn't play on Sunday. Pistons won again on Friday without Kate Cunningham beat the Sixers. I know Paul George and Joel Embiid didn't play. Paul George might play against the Clippers on Monday. We'll see. He's questionable. Not a play would be his season debut. Pistons have won nine in a row. Talk about guys doing a good job. JB Pickerstaff has Pistons playing great. They're in first place in the East. Danis Jenkins their two way is looking.

[Brian Windhorst]

Dan just had a great week.

[Tim Bontemps]

He. He had an incredible week. He looks like a legit rotation player. I mean, might make an argument he's better than Dennis Schroeder right now. And they're not missing Dennis Schroeder, sir.

[Brian Windhorst]

This is the MVP of EuroBasket. The reigning MVP of the world cup.

[Tim Bontemps]

Who just got benched by the reeling Kings, who are 3 and 11.

[Brian Windhorst]

They lost.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes.

[Brian Windhorst]

On Sunday. We didn't even mention them.

[Tim Bontemps]

That was not one of the awesome games on Sunday.

[Brian Windhorst]

No.

[Tim Bontemps]

The spurs blowout win for the spurs over the Kings without Victor Wembanyama.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, Victor Wembanyama, by the way, with calf tightness. It sounds like he's headed to the mri, so hopefully not serious.

[Ben McMahon]

Did, Did Doug Christie have any good press conferences?

[Brian Windhorst]

I will say I didn't see if Doug said anything after this game, but in the same like 30 hour period earlier this week, he crush the haters. He's, you know, we're gonna, I don't have the exact quote in front of me.

[Ben McMahon]

Just Harry High School. Rah rah.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Tim Bontemps]

Ridiculous.

[Brian Windhorst]

Harry High School. You know, he's just like, we're gonna show you. This is going to be the King show. We're gonna get all you haters.

[Tim Bontemps]

Sad cloud.

[Ben McMahon]

He was like spewing cliches and hashtags.

[Tim Bontemps]

He went from hating on the haters to hating on his own team in about a day and a half.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, Dana. And like I was talking to a, an executive who was watching their game and he goes, I goes, look, he can say whatever he wants. I, I thought that they quit on him that game. And so he must have, I don't know if he thought that, but he must have not liked what he saw because afterwards he came in and ripped his team and it was like, it was like.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, that was a game also against the Hawks where they lost by about a trillion.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, the Hawks laid waste on this trip.

[Ben McMahon]

Sure did.

[Brian Windhorst]

So anyway, I will just say the Hawks, they are number two in the league in defense behind the Thunder since Trae Young went down and they had another injury. Zach Risache had a ridiculously nasty looking fall on his hip going up for a dunk. I think in the second quarter or third quarter of the game. He only played 15 minutes, so he's got to make sure he's okay.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think those slight, those stats might be slightly, slightly delayed from before today's game. They're currently, I think they're tied for. They're 7 and 2 since Trey went out. They're tied for third defensive rating with Toronto Raptors over that span. Toronto Raptors are also playing Very well.

[Brian Windhorst]

Seven and two and that's.

[Ben McMahon]

The Raptors.

[Tim Bontemps]

Also playing very well. As I said before the season started. Listen. No, I just, I remember we were like five games into the season and McMahon had him going 20 and 62. That's all.

[Brian Windhorst]

I didn't realize they hadn't played. I didn't realize it was nine games without tra. I thought it was eight games.

[Ben McMahon]

So.

[Tim Bontemps]

So, yeah, well, they didn't. I don't think the. I don't think by. When you looked at it, they, they counted the sun scan.

[Brian Windhorst]

Anyway, they've been playing very good defense. Jalen Johnson, I don't know who's going to win player of the week in the Eastern Conference. There's some really good candidates, but Jalen Johnson has got a case.

[Tim Bontemps]

I would bet on it being Jalen Johnson.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, his number. He just, he had one of the best weeks of his career this week.

[Tim Bontemps]

And not a lot of 31, 18, 14 and seven steel triple doubles. That's pretty good.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes.

[Tim Bontemps]

That was what he did against the Jazz on Thursday.

[Brian Windhorst]

He's been, he's been really picking up the playmaking more. I mean, the Hawks numbers offensively are up across the board because they have to be. It's not necessarily their defense. It's when you know of Trae Young, your defense is going to have a little bit more of a chance because they have to cover. Their entire defensive scheme is designed to cover for Trey Young. That's not meant to be an insult.

[Tim Bontemps]

They also, they replaced, they replaced Trey Young in the starting lineup with the key Alexander Walker, who's an outstanding defender. Like this is.

[Brian Windhorst]

He missed. He, he's missed a, a handful of those games.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm just saying. They, yeah, they. If you go from Trey Young, who's one of the worst guard defenders in the league, to Nikhil Alexander Walker, who's one of the, he's in the top, what, 20% of guard defenders in the league? Something like that. Maybe higher. Like if you make that flip with the other guys they have there, like, they're rolling out there now with a massive lineup with him and Dyson Daniels at 6, 8 in the backcourt, and then Jalen Johnson and either Rishay or Anwu and Chris Dasporzingis. Like they've just got a ton of size out there all the time and athleticism. And it's a proof of concept for what this scene could look like without Trey for an extended period. And we're going to see how that looks for another several weeks with Trey out. When they start to play some better competition. We'll see where it goes.

[Brian Windhorst]

The game that I was at for this last week, I saw him play in la. A couple days ago they started Keaton Wallace at point guard, Case's big brother. That is when I learned that he was Casen's brother. I did not know that. I'd hate to sound like, you know, who he played for.

[Tim Bontemps]

Richard, a good story for them went from a two way to a full contract and it's been a good story for him.

[Ben McMahon]

I did not know that those Wallaces will guard you.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's the thing. They play very few guys. I mean, Luke Canard is obviously not a lights out defender, but basically every other guy they're putting out there is either neutral or most of them are plus defenders. That's a pretty interesting lineup.

[Ben McMahon]

So Bon Tims, you hit on this though. This is basically a trial period for them without Trey. Right. And they were not close to getting an extension done. If you're not close to getting an extension done, then I think the trade.

[Tim Bontemps]

Could get one done at any time. Just for, just for clarification sake, because he can be a free agent this summer, so they could in theory do an extension anytime.

[Ben McMahon]

Typically though, when you're not able to get an extension done with a star trade, discussions are at least on the table, you know, as, as a possibility. And this kind of gives them a chance to, to see what their team would look like without Trey Young as the centerpiece. You know, the other piece of that puzzle's got to be obviously what kind of value can you get? I still, you know, I, I don't think you can trade Trey Young unless you are getting some value in return. But it's a, it is an interesting little unintentional trial period that the Hawks.

[Brian Windhorst]

Are going through right now for sure and they're winning. And look, just because you have a winning streak in November doesn't mean that you're going to have that winning streak when it matters. But you know, they definitely open some eyes and that game on Tuesday is now a game that deserves to have attention paid to it. We'll see if. I know Duran's been dealing with minor injury as well.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, yeah, he and Kate have both missed the last couple games of Detroit's winning, but they've had, they've had a couple days off, so in theory they should be ready to go. And then the Hawks play. They're at San Antonio on Thursday and then they've got New Orleans, Charlotte and Washington before they play. Cavs corner on Black Friday. So like they've got a chance to rip off a bunch more wins and really put themselves in a pretty decent spot in the East. And yeah, like we've talked a lot about these, you know, whether it's John Morant or Trae Young or Lamelo Ball, like there's a lot of these guys who are in sort of interesting spots with their teams and the common denominator is I'm just not sure what the market is for any of those guys. And you know, it's, it's all going to be interesting to see. And to your point, if they, if the Hawks can continue to play well playing this way, Jalen Johnson looking like an All Star, well, that's, it's going to be an interesting data point going forward to see what happens with Trey and that option and what his future is with the Hawks.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, as you take a look at the state of the east and you look at the team, the two teams that were, you know, expected to, to be at the top of the east, the Knicks are beginning a five game road trip a Monday in Miami. It is not the most demanding road trip that you will ever see. However, it's still a five game road trip and they are going to.

[Ben McMahon]

I'll see him in Dallas. What do you mean it's not demanding?

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, that's true. The Mavericks are hot. The it starts in Miami, then it goes to Dallas and Orlando, at Brooklyn, at Charlotte. The Knicks are going to be without Jalen Brunson. He's dealing with an ankle injury, you know, indefinitely, but going to definitely miss that Miami game. And then OG Anunoby Shams reported on Sunday, OG left on Friday's game against the Heat, which the Knicks and their number one ranked offense put up 140 points in a game you were at. Big NBA cup win there. Bon Temps. But OG Anunoby, who's been a terrific catalyst for them, he had put up great numbers and I think was expected to put up really big numbers because when Jalen Brunson was out last year with an ankle injury in March, he had the most prolific offensive run of his career. He pulled his left hamstring and is going to be out at least two weeks. So certainly this whole road trip and longer. And so the Knicks are deeper than they have been in the past, but you lose two of your best starters, it's going to stress you out. So the Knicks are going to get tested over this next seven to ten days.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I mean I like the depth. I think I'm actually being Deeper than they've been in the past is a little bit questionable considering part of that depth is Jordan Clarkson, who I just don't think is that useful a guy for them at this point. And there's no replacing OG Anunoby like or Mikhail Bridges.

[Brian Windhorst]

Clarkson's gonna score 38.

[Tim Bontemps]

Clarkson had an incredible game on Friday and Landry Shammit went for 30 in the second half.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

That's true.

[Brian Windhorst]

Landre.

[Tim Bontemps]

Those guys can shoot it, but they have nobody to replace OG or Mikhail Bridges. Now Mikhail Bridges never gets hurt and plays every. Obviously he's played every game of his career so that hasn't mattered. But you know it's going to be a big test. Like they don't, you know, they're a top heavy team which is what happens when you have five guys in your starting lineup all making big money. So it's not really a surprise that if multiple of those guys are out they're going to have some stuff to answer for. But yeah, it will be interesting to see what that looks like. And you know, hamstring strains are tricky and you figure OG is probably going to miss a month if you're just doing the math on it. Like he's not going on this trip. So you figure that's already, he's getting evaluated in a couple of weeks. It's probably a four week injury. And you know, Jalen Brunson had this same ankle sprain last year and he missed 15 games in March and looked hobbled at times in the playoffs. So you know, it's not ideal that.

[Ben McMahon]

Like that one last year was especially nasty. Like that one was gruesome the way that his ankle fell.

[Tim Bontemps]

I know, but it's the same, but it's the same ankle. Like it's concerning.

[Brian Windhorst]

When they announced that was a grade one, I was pleasantly surprised. That looked like, you know, typically when you see a guy's ankle not to get gruesome here, when you see a guy's ankle bone kind of hit the floor there, you're looking at, look, he.

[Tim Bontemps]

Checked out of the game immediately and he was walking out of the arena in a walking boot. So like it, it was, it was certainly, I think a good piece of good news that it was only a grade one. But again, it's the same ankle sprain last year. That's a concern. Hopefully it's not too long but you know, it is, it is something to monitor for a Nick team that was starting to get some rhythm and playing better, particularly offensively and now they've got to kind of go Back to the drawing board with some of that while they wait for these guys to get back.

[Ben McMahon]

By the way, number one offense in the east, there's a couple offenses in the west that are better than the Knicks. But that's a, that's a, that is a correct. That's a correct correction. I did check you. If I don't, I'm gonna hear from my, from the folks in Houston, hey, those red hot Houston Rockets still have number one offense. Even better than Joker and the Nuggets.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's remarkable. Okay, so also on Monday, another team that is at the top of the east and they're, they're 9 and 5. So I wouldn't say that the Cavs are in any sort of trouble, but really sort of an underwhelming 9 and 5 to this point. And they are dealing with an injury to Darius Garland, who re injured the toe he had surgery on in the off season. He avoided respraining the toe. They said it was just a contusion. So he's day to day. They played the Bucks on Monday, a team that they have owned over the last couple of seasons and the Bucks are annoyed by it there. I've already wanted against them this year. They swept him last year and Giannis has talked about this a few times like he's, he's not thrilled about it. Then Wednesday the Rockets come to Cleveland. So that'll be a good test. The Cavs. The way I've described it is what's happening with Evan Mobley is happening with the Cavs. He is sort of epitomizing what's happening with them this year. You look at Mobley's basic statistics and it looks like he's doing Great. He's averaging 19 points. That's the most points he's ever averaged in his career. He's averaging nine rebounds. Seems good. He's averaging four over four assists. That's the most assists he's ever averaged. He's averaging one and a half steals a game. That's the most he's had. You'd be like, oh man, this guy is, you know, he's putting up. You know he's going to challenge for another NBA, all NBA second team. But the truth is that Evan Mobley hasn't been as efficient at all as he was last year. His percentages are all down, his efficiency numbers are all down. And that is what's happening with the Cavs. They are still putting up okay numbers, but their efficiency is plummeted. They've gone from the number one offense in the league in terms of efficiency, which is points per 100 possessions to not even being in the top 10, I don't think. And they've basically gotten by on Donovan Mitchell being awesome. DeAndre Hunter's had some moments too, but their, their defense has just been okay and their offense has just been okay and their margin for error has really, really shrunk compared to where they were last year. And they've had a few nights where they have just gotten their backsides kicked on the glass and they just aren't as good offensively as they were last year. And you know, they're still up there. You know, last year they led the league in three pointers made, they're still up there, but their bottom five in the league and three point percentage defense, which was a problem for them last year. When you're making more three pointers than everybody in the league and you're going to win the three point battle every night, the percentage is less important. But when you're not as efficient offensively, you not being a great 3 point percentage defense team starts to show up more. It's just everything about them is showing up more. And long story short, yes, they're injured, but a lot of teams are injured. They are not the team that they were a year ago. And look, the team they were a year ago was out in the second round. They're not looking to be the team they were a year ago, but they, they're, they are not a dominant team right now. So. And you know, Darius Garland, who's been proven to be a very important part of their offense is, you know, is banged up again with it, with this injury.

[Tim Bontemps]

So yeah, I mean look, they, if you, if you dig into the numbers, right, like you said, Brian, they're not the same team they were last year. They chose to replace Ty Jerome essentially with Lonzo Ball, which is a move that we all agreed at the time and I think still do gives them a higher ceiling in the playoffs. But Lonzo is a worse regular season player. Now Ty Jerome has been hurt from Memphis this year because everybody's been hurt from Memphis this year. But last year Ty Jerome was an offensive dynamo off the bench. He was a six man finalist. He gave them another guy to create shots whenever Donovan Mitchell or Darius Garland wasn't on the court. And this year Darius Garland's played 73 minutes. Obviously Ty Jerome has played none. And when Donovan Mitchell has been on the court, Cavs have had an offensive rating of 120, which is very good. It's up in the top five somewhere in the league when Donovan Mitchell has been off the court, the Cavs offensive rating is 106.9, 13 points lower and would be one of the worst in the league. And the Cavs are, I believe, 18 points per 100 possessions worse when Donovan Mitchell's on the bench. Pretty obvious. It's pretty obvious that, like you said, Brian, he's had to have some herculean efforts for them to win some of these games early on. And when he's not on the court, they have an extremely hard time scoring, which is not rocket science when you don't have Darius Garland and you don't really have another guy to generate offense in the backcourt. But it is putting an awful lot of wear and tear on Donovan Mitchell early on in the season. And I think that's really the biggest concern. We've talked about it some before is we've seen Donovan Mitchell wear down late in the season and in the playoffs in the past and last year, the Cavs did everything they could to mitigate that, and it still happened anyway. And I think, you know, yes, they're off to a solid start. They've survived some of these games, but it's putting a lot of strain on him. And I think going forward, that's the concern is, are they putting too much strain on him in November?

[Ben McMahon]

Well, and Lonzo Ball, you can make a strong case, is a better fit for that roster when they have Darius Garland. They haven't had Darius Garland basically all season. And so you don't have Garland, you don't have Jerome. You basically have one guy to be a primary creator. And I'm sure there's going to be times throughout the course of the season where they're going to have, you know, they're going to have to pick some games to kind of punt. Like, you can't expect Donovan to have this kind of workload.

[Brian Windhorst]

They actually picked a game to punt last week in Miami and they won it.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, there you go.

[Brian Windhorst]

And then they came back on Friday and lost, lost to Toronto.

[Tim Bontemps]

And then they were down. They were down a lot of the game in Memphis and then had a crazy fourth quarter turnaround and led by Don, led by Donovan, who was great.

[Ben McMahon]

You know, but the goal for the Cavs isn't to win 60 something games and be the number one seed. They've. They did that. You know, the goal for them is to be positioned to make a deeper playoff run and to win the Eastern Conference. And, you know, obviously it's not like you want a worse regular season record. But you know, again, if you have to work through stuff now and to be better positioned in April, that's life. More HOOP Collective podcast after this.

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[Brian Windhorst]

We also mentioned the Magic a minute ago. The Magic had won three in a row before they lost in Houston, you know, looking like they were finding their footing. Now Paolo Ben Carroll has missed a couple of games with a groin injury that he suffered in New York earlier this week, so that's a thing. It's not expected to keep him out for an extended period, but you know, that would have been a really big win for them tonight. Instead, the Rockets had Durant and Durant had 35, I think maybe 12 or something like that in the fourth quarter in overtime.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, for people that didn't see it, this game was tied with five seconds to go and the Rockets had the ball in the front court and tried to inbound the ball to Kevin Durant, who fell down. And so the Magic guard, Anthony Black got a wide open dunk or Layup with a second left that got fouled by Alpechen Goon to put them up by two. He then missed a free throw and then Rockets called timeout, inbounded the ball to Shangoon. He hit a bucket at the buzzer to send the game to overtime. So that was the final five seconds of this game, which was crazy.

[Brian Windhorst]

Before that they had had a three point lead and Durant hit this wicked.

[Tim Bontemps]

Crossover step back to tie the game.

[Brian Windhorst]

To tie the game.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes, it was crazy.

[Brian Windhorst]

It was a highlight.

[Tim Bontemps]

The overtime was wild too. There was some hijinks with Des Bane. He was getting into it. Reed shepherd, there was all kinds of stuff going on.

[Ben McMahon]

Oh, Reed Shepard did the old, you know, you block my shot mean mugged me and you know, let me stick my leg out and try to trip you. I think that was before the overtime. But that, that was the fourth quarter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was in the fourth quarter, dude. Can we talk about the fact that KD is still like an elite scorer in year 19 and then there's been very little drop off there and now he's in a situation in Houston where he just fills this glaring void as a go to guy. I mean he's off to an incredible start.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean look, there's, there's some other things that have changed in Houston, but last year, the Rockets last season in offensive rating in the regular season were 12th. This year their first and other things changed. Shangun has played great, et cetera, et.

[Ben McMahon]

Cetera, but Reed Shepherd's really starting to play.

[Tim Bontemps]

Reed Shepherd's played well. A lot of other things have changed. But Dylan Brooks is an inefficient shooter. And Jalen, Jalen Green's a very inefficient shooter. They swapped him out for Kevin Durant and that's a, that's a pretty giant part of why they went from being a up and down offensive team that really needed to offensive rebound to have any success to having the best offense in the league. Still offensive rebounding like crazy, but also having Kevin Durant out there to make shots.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, Kevin Durant, Everton, averaging 26 on 51, 40, 89 shooting.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's pretty good.

[Brian Windhorst]

Let me just say something about Kevin Durant. So he has played. This is his 19th season. He's, you know, he missed the one year with Achilles injury. Still, 19th season he has taken in his career. Let's see here, 27% of his shots in his career have been three pointers. 20% of his shots have been from 16 to the three point line. So almost 50% of his shots, or about 50% of his shots are mid to long range jumpers. Right? Most of them have been contested. I don't, I don't have that stat, but I'm going to guess a lot of them have had a guy in his face. He is right now shooting over 50% for the 15th consecutive season.

[Ben McMahon]

He's the best mid, best mid range shooter in the history of the game.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'll go beyond that. I think he's the best scorer in the history of the game.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes, he is. LeBron, would you on that if you.

[Tim Bontemps]

Went in a lab and built the ideal. I've said this before, if you went in a lab and created the ideal person to be a scoring machine in the NBA, you would spit out Kevin Durant. He's got a perfect hook and jump shot. He can handle the ball. He's 7ft tall. He can do, he can go anywhere on the court. He, he can shoot over anybody. You can't really contest any shot that he wants to take because he can get anywhere he wants. Like, and he only didn't score like 38 or 39 in a game or something during his career because he was always, never really trying to do it.

[Brian Windhorst]

In that 15 years, he's only averaged 20 shots twice.

[Ben McMahon]

And he doesn't hunt shots. No, he doesn't take. Now I say he doesn't take bad shots. He takes shots that would be bad shots for most human beings, but he does not take shots that, you know, there's obviously some late shot clock things he has to get up, but he doesn't take shots that analytically are poor shots for him.

[Tim Bontemps]

And he's always played within the flow of a team. He's never like, tried to dominate the ball or hijack an offense or anything. It's like he, I mean, he's. Yeah, I don't think there's ever been anybody that's been more complete at being able to score in the, in the history of the sport than before he.

[Brian Windhorst]

Left for Golden State. He'd won four of the previous five scoring titles. I mean, if he had stayed there, I mean, a lot of things would be different. But, you know, he, you know, he might be right there with LeBron for the scoring. I mean, he, I mean, he's, I.

[Tim Bontemps]

Mean, he's missed a lot of time with injuries. I think that's the reason he isn't there for the scoring.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, but he's, he's, he made a conscious decision not to keep winning scoring titles. He tried to prioritize different things. Some of it's worked out, some of it hasn't.

[Ben McMahon]

Did once make a wager with Eddie Sefco, who's now in the Mark Cuban semi retirement home for sports writers with the Mavericks, but it was with the morning news at the time. Anyways, I made a wager. This is back when I think it was pre Jones fracture, even for Katie. I, I bet that he would finish his career with more points than Kareem. And I bet a thousand dollars on it.

[Brian Windhorst]

A thousand dollars?

[Ben McMahon]

Well, it was, there were, that's a.

[Brian Windhorst]

Big number back then. That's.

[Ben McMahon]

There were, there were, there were beers on the table and you know, a few on the tab already, but I negotiated down to 100, I don't think. I think I probably have to pay it off. I did say Kareem because I said LeBron's also going to break that record. I ended up being right on that one. But dude, Katie's gonna end up being a top three or four, like all.

[Brian Windhorst]

Time scorer just statistically, man, a thousand dollars, that was.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, my, my blood alcohol level looked like a three point percentage at the time.

[Tim Bontemps]

I still wouldn't rule out, by the way, him catching Kareem now.

[Ben McMahon]

If he does, then I'll collect.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I will say that, you know, he is heavily motivated to play. Like he's, you know, like he's, he definitely wants to play on the Olympic team in 28.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, Kevin's 37. Like he could, he could easily play several more years as long as he doesn't have any other significant. I mean he's already had a significant injury, but like, I mean he could, he's going to be able to shoot the ball for as long as he wants to play over people. It's not like he's blowing by people now. Like, he's still athletic, but I mean he's still going to be a seven footer with skill and the ability to hit a jumper as long as he wants to do it.

[Ben McMahon]

You know, there was, there was a clutch situation. I believe it was in the overtime of that game. And Amend Thompson came up to set a screen and I've told you, Katie's told those young guys, like, hey, when, when I want the ball, I'll let you know. You know, be aggressive, do your thing. But. And Katie said, nah, back up. I forgot, I forgot who was going to be like, I don't need to. Oh, it was Tristan Da Silva. Yeah, I don't need a screen here. Get out of the way.

[Tim Bontemps]

I got this. A man was Trying to bring Des Bane, I think over into screen and Kevin just like, get out of here. I'm good.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

It was almost the exact same shot that Cooper Flagg took a few minutes later in, in the fourth quarter of his game. And he didn't, didn't quite make it, but it was basically the same move. Got to 15ft and Kevin's made that move a million times. Like again, he gets to 15ft and rises up like he can get to where he wants and shoot that shot every time without a problem.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, Jackson says Tonight was the 174th game in Durant's career that he had 35 and 5, which ties Westbrook for ninth most in NBA history. And Westbrook's, you know, a stat stuffing machine, so. All right, so you mentioned Cooper bond temps McMahon, Cooper Flagg, you said earlier with a high quality performance in this game tonight, 21 points at 9 of 16, shooting at 8 rebounds, 5 assists, steal 2 blocks and you identify that. You know, obviously the Mavericks have had a turbulent first.

[Ben McMahon]

You don't serve.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's one way to put it.

[Brian Windhorst]

Some people have, have deigned to like criticize Cooper.

[Ben McMahon]

And here's the thing. Look, have the Mavericks been disappointing? Yeah, I mean, they're 4 and 10 now. Sure. Has Cooper Flag been a disappointment? That's ridiculous.

[Tim Bontemps]

Again, I will remind everyone that McMahon was the one leading the charge to talk about other people for rookie of the Year about a week and a half ago. Okay, I will just kindly point that out.

[Ben McMahon]

It was a little bit more. I just said that there was other. Other rookies were off to a sizzling so. And by the way, VJ Edgecomb is, you know, he's calmed down, but yes.

[Tim Bontemps]

He'S calmed down some.

[Ben McMahon]

Here's all I'm going to say is 18 year olds don't step into the NBA and impact winning. It doesn't happen. It literally. There's literally never been an 18 year old who played a significant role on a playoff game. The closest that's come to that was Kobe, who averaged 7.6 per game as a rookie and shot 41.7% from the floor. Now Cooper, flag the line. He put up tonight 21 points, 8 rebounds, 5 assists, a couple blocks and steal. Never been done before by an 18 year old. If you want to take the blocks out, There's a few LeBron games in there and that's it. 20 points, no turnovers. Cooper's done that twice now as an 18 year old. Kobe did it once. Nobody else has ever done it before. I mean and I can go down a long list, like 20 point games. That's his fourth. Kobe had four, LeBron had 14. And like dude, the, the comparison, the only comparison to what he's doing as an 18 year old is LeBron. And there have been, you know, like.

[Brian Windhorst]

Allow me to point this out because you know, I keep talking about how Cooper's situation reminds me so much of LeBron's. LeBron's first month of his career. He played 17 games. Here were his stats. Now I'll get through.

[Ben McMahon]

I have through 14. But you can go, oh, go ahead.

[Brian Windhorst]

Because that. Is that what Cooper.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, I have through 14. And just to put this in perspective.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Ben McMahon]

Kobe, T. Mac and giannis. Kobe had three DNPs. T. Mac had seven DNPs, Giannis had five DMPs. They were all single digit scorers.

[Brian Windhorst]

I don't think that's, I don't think those are fair comparisons.

[Ben McMahon]

I'm just pointing out just like these are hall of Famers and they all had more turnovers.

[Brian Windhorst]

They were all string beans not prepared to play in the NBA. LeBron and Cooper were prepared to play in the NBA and told you're going to be the point guard.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, although I think Cooper's going to fill out a lot over the next few years.

[Brian Windhorst]

But yes, well, LeBron did two, but just go ahead.

[Ben McMahon]

Now the point guard. Okay, just. We'll get to the stats first. They both have four and ten records. Okay, LeBron Summerson, by the way, LeBron.

[Brian Windhorst]

Lost the next five. He started four and 15. Go ahead.

[Ben McMahon]

The Cooper might. Anyways, through 14 games, LeBron averaged 17.4 points, 6.6 rebounds, 6.1 assists, 3.4 turnovers, shot 42.4% from the floor. Cooper 15.6 points, 6.7 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 2.3 turnovers, his shootings up to 44.7. So LeBron's numbers a little bit better. Pretty comparable, same records. And I know the Mavericks had higher expectations, but like AD has been out. This roster is terribly constructed. I think we can all acknowledge this is not a team built to win now and again. Just like yes, we are going to grade him on an 18 year old curve because guess what? He is 18 years old. This kid's mustache and goatee don't connect. I think he's had armpit hair for about four years. Like he's not a man child. He is an 18 year old kid and he isn't scared of the moment at all. Like you saw tonight in crunch time, he's he sees Donovan Clingan's on the bench. Okay, man, I'm getting in the paint and I'm going to make things happen. And again, just like I'm not trying to hate on Kevin o', Connor, he talks to people around the league, but he put out there that Cooper Flagg, according to people he's talked to, would be maybe the sixth pick in next year's draft. I strongly encourage those people to hit up KOC and say, hey, just to be clear, that's on the. Or that's off the record, right? My name's never going to be attached to that because that is a fireable comment. It's an insane thing to say.

[Tim Bontemps]

There's a lot of things that are growing in Dallas. That's why Nico Harrison no longer has a job. The one thing that is not wrong in any way is Cooper Flag. He's going to be just fine and the Mavs are going to be just fine with him. And, well, I agree with the first point.

[Ben McMahon]

I would say there's a lot of work to be done.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, no, no. What I mean is that. What I mean is that long term, Cooper's going to be just fine in Dallas. Like, it's all going to be good. Now, again, the Mavs have work to do. I'm talking about Cooper's development as a player. Cooper is going to be a megastar in the league and he's going to be awesome. And I think a lot of the commentary over the last month has been insane.

[Ben McMahon]

And by the way he started off, he played the first, what, seven or eight games at point guard, a position he had never played at any level in his entire life. And I asked him about it the other day and he basically admitted, you know, hey, I was not ready for that. You know, I wasn't comfortable doing it and said, doesn't mean I won't be able to do it in the future. But, like, since they've started a point guard, few games with d' Anto Russell, which a few games for a reason. Since then, Brandon Williams, just a point guard, any point guard, basically let him play his natural position. He has looked a lot more comfortable. I have a conspiracy theory about starting him at point guard, but I don't know if I'm going to bite my tongue on that one. I'll share it with you guys, but I won't. I can't go public with. I do have a conspiracy theory on it, though.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, in the month where The Cavs got LeBron, a point guard he averaged which Was January of that year. He averaged 23 points, five rebounds, five assists. His, his numbers, his assist numbers came down because he was. His usage rate came down. When his. LeBron's usage rate started going down, his efficiency numbers came up.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, because.

[Brian Windhorst]

And I think the same thing will happen with Cooper.

[Tim Bontemps]

Already is.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Ben McMahon]

And the thing about Cooper, like, remember the reason he was considered a special no brainer, number one overall pick was. Wasn't because people said, hey, that guy's going to be an elite offensive engine. Like he's not, he's not Luka Doncic. It's a, it's a different type of prospect. He profiles as maybe like a 1B on a championship game offensively and an elite defensive player, you know, I mean.

[Tim Bontemps]

Profiles like a Kawhi Leonard or Kevin Garnett or somebody like that who's a pretty damn good player.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Ben McMahon]

And maybe, maybe he can be a 1A. I don't know. But like the reason he was special is not because he was going to be some 30 something point per game score.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. Anyway, if anybody sell their Cooper flag stock, I'm prepared to.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'll buy it. I'll buy it. It's going to be okay.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay. So there was another team struggling that made a change, which was the Pelicans let Willie Green go start the weekend play some with James Borrego. I think Borrego's first game was against the warriors on Sunday.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yep.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yesterday. Von Thames. It's after midnight.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's fair.

[Ben McMahon]

True.

[Tim Bontemps]

Bell, Sunday night.

[Ben McMahon]

Correction.

[Brian Windhorst]

Just teasing you. Which, by the way, Moses Moody.

[Ben McMahon]

This.

[Brian Windhorst]

Is the way it's going for the Pelicans right now. Steph had a terrible night. He had nine points. He was two of 11. You're thinking, oh man, this might be a chance to get him. And Moses Moody hit seven threes in the first quarter.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, it's, it's, that's funny. Obviously, Moses Moody had a great game. He had 32 points. One of the interesting subplots of the warriors season was back in October, he had a great training camp and it looked like he was going to start. And he hurt his calf like right before a couple days before the season opener. And he missed the first couple games. He came off the bench for a while, but he, it's taken him a little while to like get in, get familiar with the league. I shouldn't say get familiar with the league, like grow into this role with Golden State, but he was pretty good for them last year. He's had a very good deal and he's Been awesome for them to start this season. And by the way, the other guy starting with them for them on the wing is Will Richard, who is a guy picked in the 50s. And for the third straight year, Mike Dunleavy's gotten a rotation player in the 50s in the second round, which is a nearly impossible thing to do. So, you know, for a Warriors thing that's had some developmental issues at times, those are a couple of good ones.

[Brian Windhorst]

For Quentin Post, the other guy, Trace.

[Tim Bontemps]

Jackson Davis two years ago, Quentin Post last year. And then, by the way, I have.

[Brian Windhorst]

A correction to make.

[Ben McMahon]

Oh, I like corrections, especially correct corrections.

[Brian Windhorst]

I heard from a high ranking executive of the Oklahoma City Thunder.

[Ben McMahon]

Ooh.

[Brian Windhorst]

In the last podcast I talked about the process at which The Thunder acquired AJ Mitchell. And I said they started with the 52nd pick and then they made two trades and got him with the 38th pick. Even though the Thunder have like 37 second round picks to their name in the next like eight years, they actually did not have a second round pick.

[Ben McMahon]

Oh.

[Brian Windhorst]

Going into the 2024 draft. And they started by trading Lindy Waters, the third for the 52nd pick and then made. It was a process of three trades where they got in to get AJ Mitchell to 38th pick.

[Ben McMahon]

No, that's okay. I called him AJ Johnson for like the first half of last season because I kept.

[Tim Bontemps]

My excuse.

[Ben McMahon]

When I was confronted by it, when I screwed it up for like the eighth time by a high ranking Thunder executive, I said, well, this guy plays like a. This guy plays like the first rounder. So it was a reasonable mistake.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. So just to. I want to correct the record now.

[Ben McMahon]

He plays like a lottery pick.

[Brian Windhorst]

They. They didn't even have a second round pick and they worked their way to 38 over the course of the day. And because I think it was the second round, it was the second day. I don't know when they made the trade, but it was. It was day two of the draft.

[Tim Bontemps]

You know who's also going to be fine? The Oklahoma City Thunder. They're also.

[Brian Windhorst]

We'll talk about them a little bit more later. I think McMahon's. They're about to block them up there.

[Tim Bontemps]

Somebody's coming after them.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, they're packing up. They're packing up around here.

[Brian Windhorst]

Maybe. Maybe we should pack up too. Was that it? I can't remember what else we had.

[Ben McMahon]

We were going to talk about the Thunder potential pursuit of 70, which I will tell you is not a priority for them.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's true. But I want to point out that they pretty much have been playing at a 70 win pace for the last two regular seasons.

[Ben McMahon]

Dude, it didn't have to be a priority for it to happen. But I asked Shea, I saw him in LA when they won their eight straight to open the season and I asked him, I said hey, like, is this something that you guys might shoot for? And he kind of was like, eh, I mean it'd be cool, but we don't really care about that.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, they do have a. They do have a bunch of TV games later. I mean they have some. Their bigger matchups are later in the year because of, you know, tv. Mute your line there.

[Tim Bontemps]

I was going to say you could hit the mute button there, boss. Do you know how to do that?

[Ben McMahon]

You sure as hell don't.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's, that's not true.

[Brian Windhorst]

Anyway, I will just say this. This last week the both the Thunder. I mentioned this on the last pod. Both the, the Lakers and the warriors had a little bit of an unnerving post game sessions you can't take. It's like, it's like McMahon making a thousand dollar bet at the bar. You, you got to be careful evaluating your team after you play the. Especially when you play him in Oklahoma City.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, the Lakers then went out and beat the Bucks by about a billion points on Saturday.

[Brian Windhorst]

We're up 65, 34, 72 on the road.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, so are the Hawks and LeBron. I think they're tied for the best record in the league other than the Thunder on the road.

[Brian Windhorst]

And LeBron is practicing on Monday. So, you know, nothing is guaranteed. But that's a good sign.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, they've had a really good start. But it's the Thunder and then it's everybody else, which is why they're whatever they are. 13 and 1, 13 and 1 on the season and their point differential is astronomical. And they've done it all with Chad Holmgren being in and out of the lineup and Jay Lewin is not playing at all. I mean last year they outscored teams by 12 and a half points per 100 possessions and that's at a record. This year they're outscoring teams by 15 and a half and Jalen Williams hasn't played yet.

[Brian Windhorst]

I know they look deeper. Should I make hotel reservations for the finals in Oklahoma City?

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, why wouldn't you? I made them reservations. I made them in June for next June.

[Ben McMahon]

Hey, we've already, we've already got got time slots of the old Tipsy Tiki.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's hard to get in.

[Tim Bontemps]

Of course you should.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's hard to get into the. But the Tiki. One of my most enjoyable days of the whole summer was watching the Sunday of the US So we did a podcast. And then I went in the back of the Tipsy Tiki. Tipsy Tiki. And they set me up with the tv.

[Tim Bontemps]

No one's ever been happier to sit in an empty bar. Empty room in a bar by themselves with a Coke and watch golf. Brianhurst was at the Tipsy Tiki in June, by the way.

[Brian Windhorst]

They were out of Diet Coke and they went out. I can't remember the young lady who made the special trip for me, but they went out to the store because they were. They had just, you know, McMahon. Juan McMahon doesn't. Doesn't do mixed drinks. But, you know, McMahon and all of his buddies, they had been celebrating the Thunder win the night before, and, you know, they drank the bar dry of mixers, and so they went out to the store. I mean, I didn't ask them to do it. They went to the store and took care of me in the back. Was glorious. It was just JJ spawn with an incredible finish. I was just cheering in the back. Nobody had any idea what the hell I was doing back there. It was, you know, like five o' clock on a Sunday afternoon. People, most people were just, you know, recovering from the night before, and I was having an absolute blast. It's taken care of wonderfully there. I'd love to go back for that next year's U.S. open.

[Tim Bontemps]

You'll be back.

[Brian Windhorst]

Maybe I will make these reservations. All right, McMahon, you got to get out of there. Bond temps. You got a baby who probably needs to be fed here pretty soon. Thank you, Jackson, for staying up late.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hopefully he stays asleep.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. Thank you for listening and watching. The Hoop Collective will be talking to you in a couple of days.

[Ben McMahon]

Adios, amigos.