With Key NBA Stars Injured - Who Can Stay Afloat?

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Episode: With Key NBA Stars Injured - Who Can Stay Afloat?
Date: November 19, 2025
Host: Brian Windhorst, with ESPN’s Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon

This episode dives deep into the NBA’s rash of high-profile injuries early in the 2025-26 season, asking how teams—and the league landscape—are being reshaped as stars drop out. The hosts discuss which teams can “stay afloat” with depleted rosters, analyze statistical impacts, debate the shifting conference strengths, and check in on the most intriguing teams in the league. Particular focus is given to the Bucks’ future without Giannis (at least short-term), the Spurs’ woes with Victor Wembanyama's injury, a surprising Raptors hot streak, and the transformations of the Rockets, Cavs, and Sixers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Injury Crisis Among NBA Stars

• Rapid-fire recap of All-Star injuries

  • Windhorst lists nearly half of last year’s All-Stars either missing games or being sidelined—Jalen Brunson, Giannis, Wembanyama, Tyler Herro, Dame Lillard, and more (02:07-08:43).
  • Many issues are calf/groin injuries; the hosts note an unusual uptick in calf strains.

• Speculation on reason for injury surge

  • Pace of play is cited as a possible reason: “Pace of play is just super high. It's way higher than it was, than it was 10, 15 years ago and it's showing up in those injuries.” (Windhorst, 09:22)
  • Ja Morant’s issues with mass substitution patterns and its connection to coach Yusalo’s speed-up strategy (10:08). “It’s a way to play at an extremely fast pace but not wear guys down…then boom, he’s on the shelf.” (MacMahon, 10:08)

• Notable quote:

  “When I first covered the league a calf injury was reasonably rare…now it feels like you see a handful a week.”
  — Brian Windhorst, 09:22

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2. What Giannis’ Injury Means for the Bucks

• Statistical drop-off without Giannis

  • Bontemps highlights the drastic split:
    • With Giannis: Offensive rating 123.5 (best in league)
    • Without Giannis: Offensive rating 102.1 (would be worst by over 2 points) (14:19)
    • “When Giannis is off the court, they're outscored by 12 points per 100 possessions.” (Bontemps, 14:19)

• Implications for standings and Giannis’ future

  • Windhorst worries about both playoff position and Giannis’ patience:

    “If the Bucks get to mid December or January [and] are not viewed as a contender, how is Giannis going to feel about it?” (Windhorst, 13:28)

  • Bontemps challenges the view that the East offers a “grace period”—actually, the middle of the Eastern Conference is more competitive than the West, so a Bucks losing streak is more dangerous (16:04-19:50).

• Debate about Bucks’ real goal

  • “What's the Bucks’ real goal this season? …To keep Giannis happy. That's right. So that's what I'm saying. I'm saying that's in trouble right now.” (Windhorst, 20:22)
  • MacMahon is skeptical of speculation, pointing out these rumors have swirled for years with little to show.

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3. Conference Strength Debate: East vs. West

• Bontemps: Middle of the East is a gauntlet
  • Points to projections: “The Bucks right now are projected by our BPI to finish 10th in the East with 41 wins. That would be the 8th seed in the West. Seven teams in the West are projected over .500; in the East, the 11th seed Bulls project to 39 wins.” (16:07)
• Windhorst/MacMahon counter: Top of the West is still loaded, but the bottom is weaker
• Conclusion:
  • If you want a good seed, a star’s injury hurts more in the Eastern Conference right now.

Notable exchange:

“If you're a team like Milwaukee and you need some time to try to sort things out with Giannis out, it's going to be a lot harder to do that in the Eastern Conference…”
— Tim Bontemps, 17:43

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4. The Spurs and Wembanyama: Flash to Fragility

• A week ago, the Spurs were flying high (8-2, second in the West), but have since been humbled (25:18).

• Wembanyama out at least two weeks, Dylan Harper and Stefan Castle also injured—“Other than their three high lottery picks from the last few years, they've gotten healthy.” (MacMahon, 28:04)

• Schedule analysis: Not a brutal stretch, so they should hang in, but “if three of their four best players are hurt” it could spiral (29:18-31:02).

• Windhorst: “If the Spurs make the top six, will have done great...Even the play-in would be a step forward.” (29:18)

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5. Surprising Contenders and Quick Hits

Raptors’ Unexpected Success

• Bontemps: “Depth is their strategy.”
• After starting 1-4, they’ve been red hot (now 8-1) by leveraging a deep, healthy rotation (34:23-35:50).
  • “If you’ve got 8 or 10 guys who are playing every night...with so many stars out, that’s a big leg up.”
• Still doubts about ceiling: projections have them only 7th even at this pace due to Philly/Miami/others’ higher upside if they’re healthy (35:54).

Sixers’ Upbeat Vibes Despite Injuries

• Embiid out recently but expected back soon; Paul George working into the lineup; Tyrese Maxey and Quentin Grimes both outstanding (41:14-43:19).
• “They keep finding ways to stack wins and just hang around…much better mood around the team.” (Bontemps, 42:02)
• Maxey is now second in the league in scoring (“32.5 ppg, right above Shai, who never plays in the fourth quarters,” —Bontemps, 37:12)

Cavs & Rockets: Statistical Standouts

• Cavs: 10-5 despite injuries, “second-best record in the East” (46:39).

  • Donovan Mitchell’s numbers: 31 pts, 51% FG, 39% 3PT, 8 FTA, 5.5 ast, 34 mins/game (49:31)
    • “He’s playing point guard—when it matters, he’s playing point guard.” (Windhorst, 49:31)

• Rockets: Now the NBA’s best offense (!) with a monstrous offensive rebounding rate (40.8%).

  • “They’re rebounding two out of every five of their own misses in a game…the gap between Rockets and 2nd is as large as between 2nd and 16th.” (Bontemps, 47:36)
  • Steven Adams: 5.1 OREBs/game in 22 minutes; Clint Capela: 2.5 OREBs in under 10 minutes (D: 48:58).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On injuries:

  • “We just talked the other day about how the league is in such a good place, but the injury situation is just really kind of out of hand…” — Windhorst, 01:23
  • “I mean, like, to keep Giannis happy. That's right. So that's what I'm saying. I'm saying that's in trouble right now.” — Windhorst, 20:22

• On Giannis' absence:

  • “When Giannis is off the court, they have an offensive rating of 102.1. That would be the worst offensive rating in the league by over 2 points...” — Bontemps, 14:19

• On unexpected stats:

  • “Stephen Curry, 47th career game with nine plus made threes.” — Windhorst, 26:15
  • “Your face level that I get is zero. McMahon, zero.” — Windhorst to MacMahon, 26:20

• On Raptors’ celebrity:

  • “She’s entertaining because she supports her man [Brandon Ingram]. When Brandon scores, she’s going to let the whole arena know about it.” — MacMahon on Glorilla, 38:19

• On conference dynamics:

  • “It's much harder, actually, to stay afloat in the middle of the East if you have an injury like this.” — Bontemps, 18:39

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Important Timestamps

• Injury rundown: 02:07–09:22
• Theories on calf injuries: 09:22–10:08
• Bucks struggles without Giannis, stats: 14:19–16:04
• East vs. West debate: 16:07–20:22
• Wembanyama/Spurs segment: 25:18–31:13
• Raptors analysis and Glorilla moment: 34:23–39:43
• Sixers outlook/maxey scoring: 41:14–43:47
• Cavs/Rockets advanced stats: 46:39–49:31

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

The hosts’ characteristic blend of in-depth stats, banter, and straight-shooting skepticism gave the episode energy, humor, and insight ("Let me ask you this, both of you. When's the last time you guys hugged?" — MacMahon, 24:37). The outlook for the NBA’s injured elite is sobering, and the ripple effects are being felt up and down the standings—especially for the Bucks, but ripple out to teams like the Spurs, Raptors, and Rockets.

For teams with their stars healthy, now’s an opening to seize. For the Bucks and Spurs in particular, how well they tread water may shape the rest of the NBA season, and possibly the futures of key superstars.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA which we're doing on Tuesday afternoon Eastern time. I'm out here on the West Coast. It's still the morning. There's some interesting basketball that is happening tonight that you will know about but we won't. So let's just keep that in mind guys. I don't know why I did that. Joining me from New York City is Tim Bontemps.

[C]

It's a windy sleep update off the bat folks. He's in fresh from Omaha Morning flight. He's all discombobulated. Had trouble getting set up today.

[B]

I actually am well rested on this occasion. I just brain farted. Joining us from Dallas, Texas is Bam McMahon.

[D]

Howdy Partners. A good hair day for Wendy. Just had to get it fixed up. Took the cap off on Mike Bontems and got all fixed up. Fresh off the plane.

[B]

Looking good. Yeah, this is what I look like. 6:45am Flight straight from LAX. This is the experience that you're getting. No makeup today if you are a little alarmed, but I'm in better shape than about half of the All Stars from last season because with this rash of injuries we're having. We just talked the other day about how the league is in such a good place, but the injury situation is just really kind of out of hand and two more injuries early in the week. Giannis goes down. We should have information later today. He's having an MRI following a groin injury that he had in Cleveland on Monday night.

[C]

Seems very unlikely. It's a short term absence though.

[B]

Well, yeah, there's no such thing as a minor groin injury. And then we've got Victor Wembanyama out at least two weeks before being reevaluated with a calf injury, which we know how sensitive those are. Guys, I'm going to read you the All Stars from last season. Okay? It's going to go right down the list here and we can count how many have missed or are missing significant time. Jalen Brunson on the shelf. Donovan Mitchell has missed some games, but thankfully healthy. Playing very well. Had another very good game on Monday. Jayson Tatum. Don't remind me. Giannis Antetokounmpo Groin on the shelf. Karl Anthony Towns, fortunately, Cats still contributing, although The Knicks what, 8 and 1 at home. Buntemps04 on the road.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Not good in the standings. Cade Cunningham, dealing with an injury right now. Pistons still winning. They've won the last two without him. Jalen Duran, playing like an all Star, but you know they've got a two.

[D]

Way guy playing like an all Star.

[B]

Dennis Jenkins.

[C]

Yes, man, they've won the last three without him. We'll see if he plays tonight against the Hawks and try to go for 11 in a row last night. I should say we're up to ballpark on the shelf.

[B]

Keep counting. Darius Garland, toe missed the first seven games. Re injured his third game back to Tyler Herro, still hasn't played. Absence is further extended for Miami. Had off season foot surgery.

[D]

Dame Lillard, another Achilles. Yeah, we're up to seven.

[B]

We're still in the Eastern Conference.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Trey Young.

[D]

I've forgotten what he heard. What he heard again.

[B]

He sprained his knee out.

[D]

His knee's right out.

[B]

Weeks, months, maybe. All right. Evan Mobley, thank goodness. Still healthy for the Cavs. Pascal Siakam, trying like crazy to carry the Pacers, who are in deep trouble.

[D]

They're wanting a whole lot, actually.

[B]

You know, Tyrese Halliburton is an All Star level player. He did not make the All Star team last year, has been an All Star in the past, but for this point isn't on the All Star team. But essentially he's included on this list.

[D]

My finger.

[B]

Jalen Brown, thankfully doing well. Making news for other reasons this year. Shay gilders Alexander scores 30 every night.

[D]

Yeah, now he gets to sit out a lot of fourth quarters because they beat everybody so badly, but played every game.

[B]

Yeah, I saw the stat yesterday. I don't know who to give a credit to. Bronnie James has played in more fourth quarters this year than Shay has. It's just an unbelievable stat.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Steph Curry has been dealt with illness, but luckily no serious injury. LeBron, who is making his debut, is scheduled to make his debut tonight against the Jazz. I'm going to be at the game here in la. Kevin Durant, everything's going good with him. Jokic, he's doing awesome. Jalen Williams, we're up to 10. Has him played on the horizon.

[D]

His return, he's now missed 15 games. 17 is a key number there because of the supermax eligibility. But he will be back very soon, I believe. But we're up to him.

[B]

I would say that supermax thing's probably out the Window. Unless he wins defensive player of the year or something.

[D]

He's all in. Dude, first of all, you're naming all.

[B]

These guys, oh, he can make all NBA.

[C]

Well, you can't make all NBA just 15 games.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[C]

Because he's going to not qualify because he doesn't play enough games, bro.

[D]

Okay, that's what I'm saying. If he comes back this week, he's still going to have a chance. If he plays the rest of the season.

[C]

I mean, yes, if he. If he plays every game the rest of the season, which I would say is unlikely.

[B]

Anthony Davis.

[D]

We're up to 11. I'm out of fingers. I got to start again. I won't put my toes up. Plus I don't know how to put toes down. So we're on my third hand.

[B]

And so much for being questionable, McMahon.

[D]

Well, I told you guys. Yeah, basically what happened is his people cleared him. The mas. His people who are on the MAS payroll. But the director of the MAS medical group threw up the caution flag. Patrick Dumont weighed in and then eventually after a few questionables said, hey, you're not playing again until there is clear medical data saying there's no risk of aggravating this. Or as we saw with Tyrese Halliburton, worse. And so now it's. They announced, well, I don't know, days run together. They announced a couple days ago that it's seven to 10 days before he'll be reevaluated again. Anyways, we're up to 11.

[B]

Ant Edwards thankfully back, but dealt with a. Dealt with a hamstring injury. James Harden is back and is not back. He's playing through, but his team is just can't win.

[D]

Honestly though, Harden is the one good thing going with the Clippers right now. If it wasn't for him, they might be, you know, one and yeah, I.

[C]

Just saw him Monday night. I just saw Monday night in Philly. He played, you know, he didn't hit a lot of shots, 7 for 25, but had him only reason they were in the game and nearly had a chance to win a second straight game for him and fell just short.

[D]

It took a 40 point hardened triple double for them to beat the Mavericks in double OT the other night. That's the state of the Clippers. But he's healthy, right?

[B]

Okay. Jaren Jackson Jr. Off season surgery came back. The team is also struggling. John Moran also not on. John Moran is out now with. That's a calf injury too, correct? Yeah, he's out Multiple weeks, at least.

[D]

A couple of weeks.

[B]

He's not on the, he's not on this list because he didn't make the all star team last year. But you know, an all star level player, he's out used to be. Well that's true. Victor Wembanyama.

[C]

That was a ball you said earlier.

[B]

Just in case you thought you were done counting. McMahon, Kyrie Irving, 13 and Alpish Kyrie.

[D]

Is making great progress in his recovery. I would say his return this season is very much in question for other reasons.

[B]

And Alpish Shengoon, healthy as a horse.

[D]

And hooping so but 13 and 24s and as you mentioned multiple other former all stars and it's a lot of calves which I'm by no means a medical expert. No medical degree despite eight years in college. I'm sure there's a lot of smart people around the league and employed by teams that are studying why so many calf strains and then obviously the concerns that come along with those.

[B]

Yeah, I mean non scientifically. I mean you know what I've, you know I've had this conversation with people in the league and I will tell you what they speculate, can't prove it, don't have a white paper on it or whatever. Pace of play. Yeah, pace of play is just super high. It's way higher than it was, than it was 10, 15 years ago and it's showing up in those, in those injuries. That's what they believe. I don't know but I mean I know that when I first covered the league a calf injury was reasonably rare. I mean you'd see a handful in the NBA a year. Now it feels like you see a handful a week.

[D]

Yeah. And you know, interestingly one of Ja's big beefs with Tomas Yesalo the new coach was he hated the substitution pattern. Basically this mass substitution pattern. In, out, in, out, out, in, out. And it's a way to be able to play at an extremely fast pace but not wear guys down. Ja hated it, other guys hated it. Didn't let him get a rhythm. Well Yusalo kind of backed off that with Ja after they had their little blow up and jaws minutes were up over a five game span and then boom, he's on the shelf.

[C]

More hoop Collective podcast after this.

[B]

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[E]

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[B]

So I think the one to watch as we are here is Bontem's the Fallout for the Bucks. The Bucs, being a team that desperately needs Giannis, obviously he's having a spectacular season. They did a reasonable job to keep their head above water against the Cavs on Monday. They ended up losing by 12, but it was a closer game than that. Ryan Rollins, who's been one of the good success stories in the east, had a big game. Giannis went out in the second quarter of that. But the Bucs, after a pretty promising start, they've lost three out of four. Their next two games are against Philly and Detroit, two teams that are winning teams in the Eastern Conference that you know they are home, but they're going to be a challenge. Bonsem's the, you know, like in the Western Conference like you feel like if you have a five or six game losing streak that you're going to be battling uphill the rest of the season and the Easter is more of a grace but you use you, you lose Giannis, it's going to be hard for them to win any games I think. And so you know, with, with the Bucks we're also it's not just Giannis, it's not just oh where are the Bucks in the standing. It's this undercurrent which is if the Bucks get to mid December or January are not viewed as a contender, how is Giannis going to feel about it? And this is Giannis is going to potentially watch the team for a while without him to see what they have and maybe they reel off some wins but I think they're in a tough spot.

[C]

Well, a couple things here. First of all, when the Bucks have Giannis on the court, they have an offensive rating of 123.5. That would be the best offensive rating of any team in the league. When Giannis is off the court. He played played 414 minutes so far. Giannis is off the court in 311 minutes. They have an offensive rating of 102.1. That would be the worst offensive rating in the league by over 2 points. It's 21 points worse per 100 possessions. Overall they are 19 points worse per 100 possessions. When Giannis doesn't play. They are arguably the worst team in the league. When Giannis is off the court, they're outscored by 12 points per 100 possessions. They have a horrible offense and the problem is it's going to be hard for them to do a lot to change that. There's just they don't have a lot of levers to go to really like they have a team. John Horst has put a lot of guys who can hit spot up jumpers around Giannis and it's allowed them to have a hell of a team when Giannis is out there with the ball. But if Giannis doesn't have the ball, we talked about it going back to the summer. They, it was slick business in a way to get Miles Turner for Dame Lillard. However, they never replaced Dame Lillard and Ryan Rollins has that been a great story and Ryan Rollins is a good player but if Ryan Rollins has to create all of your offense, which is basically where they're at now, it's you're going to be Struggling. And the other thing that I think has not been talked about nearly enough is what you just said before about there's a lot more grace in the east and more of a glide path. I frankly think that's completely wrong. And people are really overlooking the fact that the bottom of the west stinks bad. Like right now. The Bucks are.

[B]

Take a look at the bottom of these, sir.

[D]

No, no.

[C]

But.

[D]

But here's it. Let me finish.

[C]

Let me finish. The Bucks right now are projected by our BPI Basketball Power index to finish 10th in the East. As of right now with 41 wins, they would be the 8th seed in the west with 41 wins. There are currently 7 teams in the west that are projected to be over.500. The 8th seed in the west right now is the Clippers. By our system, with 38 wins projected. If we were talking about the eight seed in the east being projected to win 38 games, we'd be doing a laugh. We'd be having a laugh routine about how bad the east is.

[B]

Yeah, but you're. You're reinforcing the point. Just. Just the part of the reason why there's fewer wins is because the competitiveness of it. Like, if you look at the. If you look at the. The east, the number 17.

[C]

No, that's not.

[D]

No, no, let's not. Here's the problem.

[B]

The number seven team in the east right now is the Heat. The number seven team in the west is the. Are the Warriors. Who's the best?

[D]

Okay, fine, here's. But. But dude.

[C]

And I would say they're about the same.

[D]

We thought, obviously, the top of the west is. Is loaded.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

We thought there were going to be 11 or 12 legitimately good teams in the West. There's not. The Mavericks stink. The Clipper stink. The Grizzlies.

[C]

Dude.

[D]

Breaking news, sir. Mavericks. The Mavericks are going to be a lottery team this year.

[B]

Okay, well, that is. Okay, well, if that isn't the case, then that makes room for somebody.

[C]

You're glossing over the point.

[D]

The point is the jazz are in 10th place, right? At 5 and 8.

[B]

I know. I think the Jazz are winning too much for their own good.

[C]

The top of the west is obviously far above right. The Thunder are miles ahead of everybody. Denver and Houston are ahead of everybody else after that. Right. Point is, if you're a team like Milwaukee and you need some time to try to sort things out with Giannis out, it's going to be a lot harder to do that in the Eastern Conference, where the Bulls are currently projected to finish with 39 wins and be the 11 seed. So this is stunning.

[B]

Bulls that have 39 wins.

[D]

Those bullies went to Denver and pulled one out when Joker had a monster triple double.

[B]

It was a great win.

[C]

I mean it's. That was one of the craziest games of the last decade that a team would win second night of a back to back of the Utah Denver back to back after playing double overtime in the first game. And maybe the Nuggets with Denver rested.

[B]

Maybe the Nuggets thought so too.

[C]

I, I mean that was. There was a wild game scheduled.

[D]

Loss of the Bulls won. Let's.

[C]

Let's back off the BU for at least temporary 100%. But the point, the point is, was not a criticism of the Bulls even is that again, 39 wins would get you the 8 seed in the West. Like if you're the Bucks, there's. You're. It's much harder actually to stay afloat in the middle of the east if you have an injury like this. That's. That's what I'm trying to say. Like if they were in the west and Giannis was out for a month, they'd have a better chance to salvage things. But we've talked about how much of a disaster the Clippers are. The Clippers could still be sitting in the play in after all this.

[B]

I think your point, which is that there are three teams that have had that we thought were going to be contenders at least for some level of the play in have been much worse than we thought, which were the Clippers, Mavericks and Grizzlies. So that's a fair assessment that you know that that's the case. However, I will just say that there's a, there's a, you know, there's a big difference between hanging on to 10th or 11th and doing what the Bucks need to do. You know, the Bucks don't need to finish ninth. The Bucks need to finish like fifth.

[D]

Or fourth or what.

[C]

The middle of the east is just much more difficult and it's going to be harder, I think, to stay in the realm of where you can look at it in a month and say, oh yeah, the Bucks, like the Bucks could have a bunch of losses pile up right now and be sitting there in a month and be. If I don't know how long you ought to sell. Let's say he's just out a month. Just for argument's sake.

[B]

Oh my God. Maybe they're not. I hope not.

[C]

I hope not too. But if he is, maybe they're five games Back of all these teams that's hard to make up. Like, even though they're already right now around 500, they could quickly lose ground.

[B]

Let me ask you this. What's the Bucks. What's the Bucs real goal this season? I mean, like, to keep Giannis happy. That's right. So that's what I'm saying. I'm saying that's in trouble right now.

[D]

Okay. And was he happy going in the summer? No. And there was a whole bunch of huffing and puffing and nobody's house got bored.

[B]

But there wasn't that much huffing and puffing. That's the thing. Like, there was a little bit, but, like, if he was mad he was huffing and puffing, he would have done it in June, not August. So I don't understand what's going on there either.

[D]

He was forgetting about meetings that he had with the billionaires.

[B]

I know, but that's a passive thing. Like, he said that, like, after something else happened. He didn't.

[D]

But there wasn't any houses blown down.

[C]

Giannis, up until yesterday when he got hurt Monday, I should say, was playing out of his mind and arguably might have been the MVP of the league through the first month of the season. I would say it's been mission accomplished for the Bucs in terms of keeping him happy and playing well and being in a good place for where they're at now. I don't think the Bucs are a championship team. I don't think there was a way for them to be a championship team. I don't. I think that's the case even in an Eastern Conference that at the top is not very strong. However, because of the depth of the middle of the east, if he does have to miss a decent amount of time, they could quickly be in a scenario where when he comes back, they're sitting in 10th, they're sitting in 11th, and they're going to have to dig just to get into the play. Well, yes, but that I. You were ignoring the initial point I was trying to make, which is that for all of the talk that the west is so great and so much better than the East. Well, it is outside. No, it's not outside of the top three teams. The east is much deeper.

[B]

I know, but it's more important for the Bucks to be in that top, be knocking on the top three than.

[C]

It is more important for the Bucks to have a chance to make a run in the playoffs. If they're sitting in seventh, it's a better. They can talk, they can talk themselves into that more than if they're sitting in 11th.

[B]

Do you believe that Giannis will give them until the end of the season?

[C]

Look, I. I don't think you can have any conversation like this, sitting right now at 1:30 in the afternoon on Tuesday when we don't know how long Giannis is going to be out, nor where the Bucks will be when he comes back.

[D]

Also, honestly, I'm kind of tired about speculating on the whole yacht. When's Giannis going to act? It's been seven years now.

[B]

Listen, I get what. I get what you're saying there, McMahon. I don't prefer it either, but if the dude changes teams, it could potentially change the whole balance of power in the freaking year.

[D]

I understand, but like, at this point, honestly, like, I thought it was going to be last summer. He had every reason in the world to ask out last summer. I think there's nobody.

[B]

Ask out. He just did it in a really under effective way.

[C]

Extraordinarily difficult to make a trade in the middle of the season. I would be surprised if a trade happened for many reasons in the middle of the season. We saw with the Luca trade last year that you can't say no to anything anymore in the league. So I will not say no completely to it, but I'm just much more interested in the fact that a guy who was leading candidate to be MVP of the league is now out for a determined period of time and the Bucks could fall off a cliff.

[B]

And he was a leading candidate. I wouldn't say he was the leading candidate.

[C]

I mean, I would say. I would say he probably was the leading candidate as of right now. But again, wait for the Bon Temps.

[B]

Would you have voted for McMahon? I would have voted for Jokic.

[D]

With all due respect, bond temps, your MVP expertise is asking other people their opinions. You haven't done that. We don't want to hear it.

[B]

Let me just ask you this. Your points are all fine. Bontemps, let me just ask you this. If you were one of the owners of the Bucs, how would you be sleeping about the situation?

[C]

But that is. I mean, I would not be happy because one of the three best players on the planet has a groin injury. I'm not worried. I'm not. It's not about his whether he's going to ask for a trade in two months.

[B]

I think it is. I think every day. I think that's the whole thing for the season. If they get to. If they get to the end of the season and Giannis is still on the team, they'll have had a good year.

[D]

Let me ask you this, both of you. Let me ask both you this. When's the last time you two guys hugged?

[B]

It's been a while.

[D]

It kind of feels like it's time. You guys are really just funny.

[B]

We mentioned earlier one of the depressing injuries that just came up to Victor Wembanyama a week ago. The spurs were 8 and 2 in second place in the west. Feeling good about themselves. And you know, the NBA is a fragile place. They get walloped twice by Steph Curry. Can I just say, did I see this stat right? I don't know. Maybe Jackson can back me up. Steph, I think on Friday made nine threes in that game. In that terrific game, he and Victor both had over 40. I think I saw that. That was the 47th time that Steph has had at least nine threes in a game. I, I 47.

[C]

I think you're mixing up stats. I'm pretty sure the stat was. It was his 47th time with over a certain number of points. But I will double check that.

[B]

Well, he's had over 40 points more than 47 times.

[C]

Wow. But I think it was since 30.

[D]

Which is whatever, I mean it's a ridiculous night by.

[B]

That can't be right. Right. I got that wrong. Right?

[C]

Yeah, he had, he's had 44, 40 point game since turning 30.

[D]

That's nuts.

[C]

I can't.

[B]

I thought I saw something.

[C]

I don't think, I'm not sure. There's been 50. I. I'll look up on st. Yeah.

[B]

That can't be right. Like that. I had to got that wrong.

[D]

Let's just assume that was wrong where we just spew incorrect statistics.

[C]

I. Yes, I think you're confusing it with the, the number of 40 point games over 30.

[B]

Excuse me, sir. Excuse me, sir.

[D]

Incorrect.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Stephen Curry, 47th career game with nine plus made threes.

[D]

Bam.

[B]

And your face level that I get is zero. McMahon zero.

[D]

No more bond corrections.

[C]

You always say you can't remember anything. And it is basically the same stat as Steph passing Michael Jordan for most 40 point games over 30.

[B]

So I want to go back to what I said. 47 games over three pointers. By the way, I will say this. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it either. Like it did make it through the fog of the weekend that that showed up.

[D]

I wonder how many other 93 point games there have been in NBA history.

[B]

Okay, well, Jackson has that. Well, not that totally, but second place. You might look on the chat here and see second place.

[D]

I don't know how to.

[B]

Is Dame Lillard. You want to take a guess, McMahon, since you haven't looked. Oh, now you're looking.

[D]

No, no, I haven't hit it yet. I haven't hit it yet.

[B]

All right, well, don't just. Okay. Lillard is second with nine. Three point games.

[D]

I was going to guess. Oh, with nine. So you haven't told me the number. No, I'm going to say 11.

[B]

Good guess. Your low was 14. Okay, so that's a good guess. So, Steph, 47 games of at least nine threes. Dame second all time.

[D]

14 with less than as many.

[B]

Yeah, 14 is damn impressive. 14 like that. That's a lot of unbelievable nights. Okay. Anyway, the spurs were running great. Steph comes in for a baseball series, wallops him twice. Victor's hurt. Dylan Harper was already hurt. Now Stefan Castle hurt.

[D]

Yeah. And Castle's a hip. I believe that's going to be more week to week than day to day.

[B]

Well, and Harper is week to week.

[D]

So other than their three high lottery picks from the last few years, they've gotten healthy.

[B]

Yeah. So. Well, this is. Unfortunately, this just backs up Bon Tempson's point about the West. Unfortunately. I'm sorry to admit it.

[D]

Now, their schedule coming up is not Murderer's Row. They've got the Jawless Grizzlies, the Trailless.

[C]

Hawks, the Scrappy Scotts, who are hot.

[D]

The Trailblazers behind. We didn't mention Jrue Holiday, also dealing with a calf injury.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

By the way, all these injured All Stars and also the fact that we need a whole bunch of international guys. I say that. Denny Avia, can you, you know, oh.

[C]

He'S got a shot at being All Star this year.

[B]

I think he's got a strong shot. Go ahead.

[D]

Then to round out the month, they got a tough little weekend at Nuggets at Wolves.

[B]

Well, let's just look at the next two weeks. We know Victor is going to be out.

[D]

That's where I got you. I just got you through that.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. This road trip they've got coming up, where they've got to, they finish it in Denver and at Minnesota. I don't know what they're going to have when they get there, so. But you know, the spurs have to fight through it. Every team has a stretch like this. If the spurs, you know, the spurs, you know, to me, if they make the top six, will have done great.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And you can get, you know, if you can get Victor for sure. Into a playoff setting. That's great. And you know, I wasn't sure at the start of the season that they were going to be a top 16. I felt they would be a play in team which I think would still be a step forward. And then Victor decided he was going to, you know, turn into, you know, half man, half Wilt Chamberlain going to the basket. And I was like, well, maybe not. But you know, look, every team is going to be dealing with this, but it is, it is. You know, it's an opportunity for some of these other teams that you mentioned it, you know, at the beginning of the season, you know, we scoffed a little bit at the Suns and you know, I wouldn't have necessarily thought that the Blazers could do it, especially with the Chauncey Billup situation happening. But those are two teams that can look in front of them, behind them and say, you know, if we can put something together, they can get in there.

[C]

Right now those two teams are projected to finish 9th and 10th with 37 and 36 wins, which is a full 10 less than the Spurs. So again, like there's real cushion now. Obviously Victor's out for two months, then they maybe it's a different story, but if it is actually a couple weeks, I don't think it's really going to change much of the trajectory for them other than if there are seventeens for six spots at the top. You know, if you want to avoid being in the play in potentially seeing Oklahoma City or maybe Denver in the first round, like that's a real thing. But you know, I think it would take a lot for them to not be in the same, the same category as these other teams that they're fighting with, you know, to try to.

[B]

What if three of their four best players are hurt?

[D]

Well, and I just watched the Blazers lose to the Mavericks, which is hard to do. So I'm going to hold off on too much praise for Portland. You know what Portland's record is as we speak?

[B]

Six and seven.

[C]

Oh my gosh. Good job.

[B]

Good job. Good job, McMan.

[C]

There you go. More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[F]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast. Smart move. Being financially savvy. Smart move. Another smart move having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer, customer availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

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[A]

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[B]

McMahon what happens if the Atlantic Division leading Raptors, one of Bon Temps's preseason darlings. Oh, like make the conference finals and.

[C]

Make the conference finals.

[B]

Hold on and make the conference semifinals and Anthony Davis gets traded? Will he. Will Bontemps just float down 6th Avenue? I think there's a chance.

[C]

Why would I be floating 6th Avenue?

[B]

Because you called the Raptors to start the season. You said that the one even said.

[C]

They won a playoff series.

[D]

Listen, if the Raptors get too hot, I'm going to show up and watch them because they are winless this season when I'm in the building. Lost by 10 in Dallas. That's extremely difficult.

[B]

They started the season one and four and I think they're eight and one.

[C]

Since one win was on opening night when they beat the Hawks by a trillion. It's been an interesting start in Atlanta.

[B]

If I'm not mistaken. I think it was in Atlanta.

[C]

That's correct.

[B]

Now they have not played the Murderer's Row of the Eastern Conference. That said, they are playing against the 76ers in a game on Wednesday night. I think Bontemps might go down I95 to see it. Okay, Bontemps, the Raptors playing with depth. Yes, depth is their strategy as Bontemp filled them.

[D]

They've got a whole bunch of okay players and that's certainly come to fruition.

[C]

I mean, that's a, that's a, that's a formula to be a solid team, which is what they are like, you know they're, they're kind of like the Suns in the East. I think they have more talent overall than the Suns. Obviously, you know, you could debate Scotty Barnes probably isn't as good as Devin Booker, but I think they're certainly deeper than Phoenix. But they have gone out and after that rough start, have generally done what they should, which is beat a lot of teams that they should, you know, to. Monday night was a good example. They messed around with Charlotte. Probably shouldn't have been a two point game, but they make a couple plays at the end. Scotty Barnes gets a block at the buzzer. They win by a couple. They get a win and they're stacking up wins and they have a bunch of guys playing pretty well. Brandon Ingram's fit in well. Manu Quickley is playing better. Scotty Barnes is playing well and like Jerry Stalin. Yeah, he's been solid. So if you've got eight or 10 guys who are playing every night, especially when like, I mean we spent the beginning of the pods, 10 minutes going through all these guys who were hurt. If you can just be healthy with a, a solid two deep rotation. But that's a formula to rack up a lot of wins and you know, it certainly seems like Toronto is on pace to have that kind of a season though. Even still with all that, they're still only projected to finish seventh behind Miami, behind Philly, behind some of these other teams.

[B]

Now I think it's too early for projections. I know you've been saying them all the way through. I don't like it.

[C]

So I think it's, it's. Well, I mean, that's fine. It's just, it's a good reminder of some of these hot starts are, you know, they're probably either hot or cold starts are more fluky than they would seem. And I would. But I also think there's a world like we've talked about, you know, we're going to get into Philly's injury situation, like. So I think we said this when we talked about Toronto before the season. Probably more times out of 100, Toronto's going to have a better record than Philly because Joel and Paul George and these other guys are not great bets to be on the court on a regular basis. But if Philly has all their guys available, their ceiling's probably higher and you.

[D]

Know, well, and Tyrus Maxi is a bonafide superstar taking a big leap.

[C]

Has been, has been, has been big. No question.

[B]

He had a big game, another big game on Monday.

[D]

Yeah, the rap throw it away at.

[C]

The end with two horrific turnovers in the final 20 seconds.

[D]

He's averaged him, what, like about 30 a game? I mean.

[C]

Oh, he's been. He's been awesome.

[B]

Second the league. Luke is leading the league in scoring. Is he second in the league in scoring? I think he's got to be top.

[C]

Yeah, he was right there with Giannis and Luka for just. He's been right there with them for the season.

[D]

He is second league in scoring at 32.52 and a half behind right above Shay, who never plays in fourth quarters.

[B]

Yeah, he's.

[C]

He's shooting 40, 41% on nine attempts to get him from three. It's pretty good.

[B]

Well, the Raptors are, you know, as we're recording this, maybe some variants after Tuesday night, but the raptors are top 10 in both offense and defense.

[D]

Not a bad place to start.

[B]

You know, it's. It's 14 games, but it's not nothing.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Here's a prediction. If the Raptors make the playoffs, the casual NBA fan is going to become very familiar with Glorilla. Are you guys familiar with Glorilla?

[C]

I am familiar with Glorilla.

[B]

No.

[D]

You're not a Glorilla fan?

[B]

I don't know. Maybe. I am.

[D]

A legendary Memphis rapper, she has frequently been seen courtside of Grizzlies games over the years. Well, she is dating Brandon Ingram. When they were in Dallas, she had the best seat in the house. Courtside, right by where the. It's one of the seats they take out when the national TV table comes in. And let me tell you, she's entertaining because she supports her man. When Brandon scores, she's going to let the whole arena know about it.

[B]

That is kind of a little bit of an insight. So there's. How many seats do you think, at center court? Maybe six or eight seats that are kind of fungible because she put the.

[D]

Pun in fungible that night.

[B]

Because when there's national TV games, they, you know, that's where the, the broadcasters go. So they take those seats out so that.

[C]

Especially in Dallas, some places have seat. Have seats there all the time. Like at msg, they've always got seats on that spot, whereas in Dallas they're at the score stable. So that's. That. That spot's open.

[D]

Anyways.

[B]

I'm just saying I don't, I don't. I don't know if that's true, that they would have. I don't actually. I don't want to get in. I don't want to go down that.

[C]

We got a lot of seats, that's all.

[B]

Just a little insight into the NBA is that those seats that are at center court typically are controlled by the team every night because they take them away in the biggest game. So they're a hard sell. So teams will sell them individually and that does happen a lot. But also when you get a big celebrity like Glorilla.

[D]

Yeah, you might recall Glorilla when. When Dane.

[B]

I love that sentence.

[D]

You may recall Glorill Dane market. She expressed public interest. She's now happily in a relationship with Brandon, who is playing very good basketball for the Toronto Raptors.

[C]

He's playing great. He's playing Great.

[B]

He's shooting 49%. The three point shot isn't going great, but he's a guy who does better when he gets the ball in his hand and can playmake. And they're letting him do that a little bit. They let Scotty Barnes do that a little bit. You know, Barnes is having a good year. Barnes, you know, The Raptors are 2 and oh against the Cavs. And whenever Barnes and Evan Mobley play against each other, there's extra, a little extra spice. They were drafted side by side. Barnes won rookie of the year. You know, they both made the All Star game, I think for the same year. And then Evan came back last year and had a. I think Barnes had the better third year. Evan came back last year, made all NBA defensive player of the year. And they always get up for each other. And Barnes whipped Mobley when they played last week in Cleveland. Totally won that round. But yeah, I mean, the good thing with Toronto, Knock on wood. Knock on wood is they've been healthy. You know, they've pretty much had the same starting five pretty much in every game. Maybe there was maybe. Maybe purdl. Jakob Poeltl missed a few.

[C]

Yeah, he's missing time with the back issue. But yeah, they've been, I mean, just. Just being able to have mostly rotation is a big leg up on the competition and you know, Toronto has been able to take advantage of that.

[B]

The team that they're playing on Wednesday night certainly knows about injuries, but they're getting better. Bontemps. So Philly will be hosting them. Joel Embiid has missed, I think three games now with the right knee.

[C]

Yeah, four in a row. Three right knee soreness. First one was second night of a back to practice Tuesday. See if he plays Wednesday. Not an official update on him yet. Paul George came out of Monday's game looking good and I think the expectation is he'll be out there on Wednesday.

[B]

Paul George played his first game, didn't shoot the ball great. I think he was 2 of 8 or 2 of 9. And I do think, you know, so for them he's, they're going to play him at 4. Is that their intention Pontes is that he's going to be there for.

[C]

I mean I think he and Kelly Oubre were going to be their starting three square em. But Kelly Oubre's out for a while with a knee injury. Probably had a nasty fall the other day in Detroit. So I think Paul will probably slot in at the three. As you know, classic Philly. You have one guy come in and you have another guy immediately go out.

[B]

Exactly right.

[C]

But you know, they keep again like they found a way to scrap through these games. They're 7 and 4 in clutch games. They're tied with Dallas in the most clutch games in the league. Max. He's been great down the stretch of games. He was great in the fourth quarter on Monday against the Clippers. Clippers playing second night of back to back look like he got a little tired and you know, Sixers didn't play well but they managed to win. And they keep finding ways to stack wins and just kind of hang around and if they can get everybody on the court. And again it seems like Joel Embiid is not far away. Nick Nurse said that Monday, practiced Tuesday. We'll see if he plays Wednesday. You would have thought a back to back in Milwaukee was a loss two days ago now might be a different story. So you know they're, they're plugging along and Vijay Edgecombe has been good and you know, it's like we've said a few times, it's, it's a far different vibe than last year when they came in the season with these massive expectations. But it's a much better mood around the team because you know, instead of being way below expectations, there were frankly no expectations coming into this season with the way Maxi's played and with the way Edgecomb is played and the way Quentin Grimes frankly has played. I mean McMahon's brought that trade up a couple times. I mean he has been incredible for.

[B]

Moment in another good Philly.

[D]

I've got, I do have good news for the Mavericks on that trade. Yeah, it is no longer true that Quentin Grimes is averaging more points per game than Caleb Martin has scored all season, but it's 22 for the season for Caleb Martin to 17 per game for Quentin Grimes.

[C]

I mean Quentin Grimes got an argument for six man of the Year he's been great. So. Yeah, but they're playing fast and playing fun and you know, it's like the vibes are pretty good.

[B]

So when it comes to Paul George, you know, I talked to some scouts and one of the things that they say and look, they don't know if he's going to be able to, he's coming off knee surgery. I don't know. But you know, two years ago when he was in, when he had that really good year with the Clippers, the reason that the, that the Sixers made him the four year max offer. You know, it's funny, you talk to people with the Clippers who are not running their mouth about anything right now.

[D]

But they, no victory lapse right now.

[B]

But they don't want a victory lap. You know, when you talk to them about Paul George, they're like, you know, yeah, he left for a four year max and it's, you know, he got injured, you know, twice or whatever. Right away they're like, by the way, we offered him three year max or, you know, they offered him three years at some big number one. Like they said, paul, we're done with you. Like they offered him a big number, you know, like they wanted him back just on those terms. They did. It wasn't like they didn't want him back. But one of the reasons why he got those offers, he had this really good year that last year in la, he was an all star. He was actually an all star his last two years in LA. And he shot 41% on threes that year and he shot over 40% a couple of times in his career. It wasn't like it's never heard of, but he shot the highest volume in his career. And that was one of the things that really opened up his game. He crushed it from three. And so what the scouts are saying is, is that still there, is Paul George still a type of player who can shoot 40% from three on six or seven a game? Maybe the answer is no.

[D]

But can he do what Tobias Harris has done for Detroit?

[C]

Well, I think, I mean, yeah, I mean again, comparing it to Tobias Harris, amusing on a variety of levels based off Tobias run in Philly right before.

[B]

That and him essentially Tobias Harris, they.

[C]

Used his cap, which is why McMahon made the comparison. And it's a fitting one. But I think the thing to look at to me is when Kelly Oubre is back and, but when Embiid is back, like, look again, I, I, I, I repeatedly said the idea of Philly being some championship contender with with these guys is not the way you should look at it. But if they're rolling out there with VG Edgecomb and Tyrese Maxey Grimes coming off the bench, Paul George at the 4 and Embiid at the 5, they are going to score a gazillion points. Now, they're going to give up a lot of points and they're going to struggle to get any rebounds, but they're going to fly up and down the court and shoot a ton of threes and you're going to have to guard all of them and they're going to be fun to watch and decent. Which again, go back to a year ago and the absolute cesspool that their season was to come out of that with Vijay Edgecomb and this season that they're having and Maxi taking a step and like just the general tenor around the team, they're in a far better place than they were then, even if it's not the place that they were hoping it would be when they signed a B to that extension and they signed George to that contract a year ago.

[B]

Okay, we got a ESPN national television game Wednesday night in Cleveland. Rockets at Cavs Cavs, despite all of their injuries and various woes, are 10 and 5 and have the second best record in the East. Rockets continue to be one of the more impressive teams in the Western Conference. Key road game McMahon for the Rockets to see how their defense works against Donovan Mitchell. He's having an absolutely spectacular season.

[D]

Yeah. Also, let's see how the Cavs defense deals with the number one offense in the NBA.

[B]

That's true.

[D]

Even with the addition. Yeah, even with the addition of Kevin Durant. I don't know that anybody anticipated that Houston would be the league's best offense. I did not anticipate 20% of the way into the season. But again, Katie's cooking. Alpi Shingoon's taking that next big jump and they got some dudes around them.

[C]

Well, listen, the Rockets, we talked the other day about Kevin Durant and the impact Kevin Durant has had. And obviously him replacing Jalen Green and to a lesser extent, Dylan Brooks is going to help their offensive efficiency. But I just want to point this out. The Rockets have right now a 40.8% offensive rebound rate. That means they're just for just so people understand what that means. That means they're rebounding two out of every five of their own misses in a game. The second highest offensive rebounding team in the league is Portland at 35.8% 5%, which is great. Which is very good. That's celebrating the gap from Portland to another five points down is the Nets in 16th. That is what we're talking about in terms of the separation for the Rockets at the top, in terms of how they've been. Well, and Shangun like they are just when they're in there. Like in that Magic game, there was a possession in either late in the fourth quarter and overtime when he and Shangoon just took the ball away from the Magic, I think five times in a row before Shingun made this ridiculous behind the back pass for a layup. And like, they're just unstoppable on the glass. So even when they do miss and they're making more shots than they normally have been, they're rebounding it half the time. It's unbelievable.

[D]

Stephen Adams is averaging 5.1 offensive rebounds per game in 22 minutes, by the way. But get this, their third big man, Clint Capella, is averaging 2.5 offensive rebounds in 9.8 minutes.

[C]

It's crazy. And they're just a machine.

[B]

I'm in Thompson with a couple of games.

[D]

They've got a point guard who is an elite offensive rebound. And that point guard, a lot of times will bring the ball up, get him in their stuff and relocate to that dunker spot where he is a problem as a finisher and as a rebounder.

[B]

Awesome, awesome start for them. These are Donovan Mitchell statistics. You know, if you had to take a straw poll right now, the tough one would be who you're putting at fifth. Probably wouldn't make the top five because of how awesome Victor's been and even Cade. But here's Donovan Mitchell's stats through 13 games. 31 points, 51% shooting, 39% from three, which is significantly above his career average. He's getting to the free throw line eight times a game, which is vital for them. Five and a half assists, one and a half steals, and just. He's playing point guard, guys. I mean, maybe not the entire game, but he's. When it matters, he's playing point guard. And his rebounds, he's. He's lamenting that he's not rebounding more because the Cavs are struggling. Rebound. But when he does rebound, he gets it and runs and is like, you know, playing super high tempo. Like he has been awesome for them. And he's also playing 34 minutes, which is three minutes more than he played last year and is not ideal. And that is a number that you got to keep an eye on.

[D]

I think he's been a top Three guard in the Eastern Conference. Cade Tyrese, Maxey, Donvan Mitchell.

[C]

Yeah. And again, to go back to what we talked about the other day, it's only 73 minutes, it's only three games. But when Darius Garland's been on the court this season, Cleveland's offensive rating is 128.3. Like, they really need that second creator on the court. And look, like we talked about, they're 13 points worse on offense when Donovan Mitchell is on the bench. Like, he's been awesome for them. But what turned them into a supercharged offensive team last year was having two of him, Donovan Mitchell and Ty Jerome out there all the time. And basically they've played this entire year with one of them. And so naturally the offense has been worse. So, you know, we'll see how long Garland's out. They've only called this toe thing a contusion. We talked about the concerns we have about that. But I think until they get him back out there on a regular basis, they're going to be what they've basically been, which is they've again grinded out wins, which is important, and found ways to win these games. But it's also putting a ton of strain on Donovan and it hasn't been pretty at times.

[B]

One thing that Kenny Atkinson has been trying to get them to do is to go to the rim more because that's something that they were, they were good at last year and that has been eroded this year for various reasons, primarily because Evan Milby's had to handle the ball more than go down there and dunk. But they did get 54 points in the paint against the Bucs. Now, okay, Giannis went out in the second quarter. He's a rim defender, but that was a step forward in the right direction. But Houston's going to make it very hard to get down there. I mean, you want to talk about having difficulty getting to the rim, try getting to the rim against those trees. So it'll be interesting to see whether or not that strategy can hold up. But there'll be a good game on ESPN on Wednesday, followed up by McMahon show down there. The Knicks visiting. Looking forward to your great reporting on that. McMahon. Can't wait.

[D]

Thank you for the back end.

[B]

You're wearing a suit to the game. All right, thank you very much to McMahon and Bontems. Thank you to Jackson. Thank you for watching. Listening to the Hoop Collective. We'll catch you guys later this week.

[D]

Adios, amigos.

[C]

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[G]

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