← Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Worried About Warriors? Detroit To Make a Move? + Knicks Stepping Up & Flagg’s Future
01:00:14
Hoop Collective: Worried About Warriors? Detroit To Make a Move? + Knicks Stepping Up & Flagg’s Future
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- [00:00]
Anthony Slater
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Brian Windhorst
Welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Thursday. Late morning on the west coast, early afternoon on the East Coast. Joining us from the west coast in Sacramento, where he attended the Sacramento Kings Golden State warriors game on Wednesday night, is our man, Anthony Slater. What's up, Slater?
- [00:26]
Vincent Goodwill
Felt like I was in 2015, 2016, a decade earlier. I even said something to Russ post game. I'm like, I'm writing about you. I'm writing about you having triple doubles. It was a flashback. I mean, because, you know, as you know, I covered him way, way back in time.
- [00:42]
Brian Windhorst
Joining us from New York, actually, you might be in New Jersey. I don't know which side of the river you're on, but you were at the Knicks game last night. Vincent. Vincent. Vince. Vinnie. Goodwill. Vinnie. I. Before you say anything, I. He's talking about throwbacks to 2015. I. I took my head. Went back last night. I took. I took some shrapnel last night because it was a Cavs throwback night. The Cavs had a throwback night last night.
- [01:10]
Vincent Goodwill
Jerseys, right?
- [01:11]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. To 2009 when they had blue jerseys. I was like, holy bleep. That was like the middle of my career. Like, I was six years into covering the NBA and that is now qualifying for freaking throwback bleep. I had to sit down, you know.
- [01:34]
Anthony Slater
Put on we old. That's all we owe.
- [01:39]
Vincent Goodwill
I'm just happy to get you two on a podcast together. I'm ready for. Can we do it like as a Juna Solgauskas flashback? Like, what was that 09 season like? You guys probably covered multiple games together that year.
- [01:50]
Brian Windhorst
Oh, my God. I think the. The Cavs might have played the Pistons in the first round.
- [01:57]
Anthony Slater
Swept them. That was the end of. That was the end of that era.
- [02:01]
Brian Windhorst
Chris Weber.
- [02:02]
Anthony Slater
No, no, no.
- [02:03]
Vincent Goodwill
There you go.
- [02:03]
Anthony Slater
07.
- [02:05]
Brian Windhorst
Okay. Right. That's right. You're right. Yeah.
- [02:08]
Anthony Slater
09 was the post Chauncey Billups trade. The. The Michael Curry coaching, the disastrous Chauncey Billups Allen Iverson trade and all that stuff.
- [02:17]
Brian Windhorst
Oh, man. Yeah. I lost track of how many times I dragged my ass up to Auburn Hills, man.
- [02:22]
Anthony Slater
Troy Marriott. Troy Marriott. Funny times. Fun times. Wendy. I'm sure.
- [02:28]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, I could go on. Literally, I could take this podcast on a 45 minute, talk about my time in Auburn hills in the 2000s. But we're gonna move it forward. We're gonna talk about today's NBA Slater Westbrook.
- [02:41]
Vincent Goodwill
Yeah.
- [02:42]
Brian Windhorst
Well, this has been an interesting week for Westbrook because he fired some Shrapnel across the aisle at the Nuggets, basically saying they kicked him out of town. And he's like, you know, Bennett Durando from the Denver Post was asking him the questions and he was like, well, didn't you have a player option? Because he did. He opted out of 4.3 million and signed back for 3.6. Yeah, you tell me that Westbrook is notoriously frugal.
- [03:11]
Vincent Goodwill
That's giving up money.
- [03:12]
Brian Windhorst
I assume he didn't enjoy that $700,000 trade out, but he said, I don't go where I'm not wanted. So he fired a missile over at. At Denver, and then he had some things. By the way, I thought you might have to play for the warriors last night. But hey, listen, it's an NBA game. The Kings are missing some dudes to Westbrook.
- [03:36]
Vincent Goodwill
Kings weren't just missing some dudes. I mean, both sides were severely. They were missing Sabonis Levine and Keegan Murray. Russell Westbrook's been basically starting at the four for them. Power forward, he's guarded. Lori marketing, and he's got a Giannis. He's been awesome. And he signed a week before camp. You mentioned, you know, giving up the player option Denver for a little less money. He also walked himself into a very unknown summer.
- [03:56]
Brian Windhorst
Right.
- [03:56]
Vincent Goodwill
He didn't sign until, you know, September, whatever it was. But he's been great. He's been one of their, you know, three, four best players. Starting now. Playing 35 minutes a night. You mentioned it, 23.6 assists, 10 rebounds last night. It's a win the kings needed and 204th triple double 18 season turns 37 next week. I mean, it is. Those nights are reminders of, like, the accumulation of his career and how unbelievable it was. Including in the press conference, he makes the statement, I'm the greatest rebounding guard ever. And I just asked like, hey, is that like, statistically driven? Or like, when did you, you know, try to claim that? And he was basically looking at me like, look, I've always claimed it. But then Josh Dubeau from AP is in there and he literally had the stat up for his story, saying, actually, tonight you passed Jason Kidd for the most rebounds ever by a guard. Tonight was history. And he's like, I didn't even know that. But again, it's just like this. He is the greatest rebounding guard ever. And I think sometimes within what the later stages of his career has been, this is now his seventh team. We kind of forget a little bit of just what he statistically has meant historically.
- [05:04]
Brian Windhorst
Vinny is he the greatest rebounding guy? I'm sure Oscar Robertson might have something to say. I'd have to. I'd have to. I saw that. I mean, I didn't just hear in this second. I just haven't. I haven't really thought about it.
- [05:16]
Anthony Slater
I mean, didn't. Not to. Is Magic Johnson, like, do we not count Irvin in this? Like, didn't he average like seven and a half rebounds for his gander?
- [05:27]
Brian Windhorst
Having a statement there. Okay, listen, that's. I don't.
- [05:30]
Vincent Goodwill
Yeah. I don't know how much you guys, like, you know, the numbers matter more than just eye test or whatever. But like, his PER 36 rebounds are. Are number one. I think Magic's two and Fat Leavers three. But like, you know, oh, fat lever.
- [05:42]
Anthony Slater
Fat lever. That's a name. That is a name. That is.
- [05:45]
Vincent Goodwill
But the numbers again, I mean, I think some people would argue, like, he's. He's hunting the numbers in a lot of ways.
- [05:51]
Brian Windhorst
Well, remember Stephen Adams in that year, Stephen Adams, part of his job description was to. Was to block everybody out of the way so Russ could get free throw rebounds.
- [06:02]
Vincent Goodwill
I mean, beyond just the numbers it produced in the triple double, it's like, that's actually a pretty wise strategy. You wipe the defenders out and your fastest guy on the floor gets the rebound.
- [06:12]
Anthony Slater
Or. Or how about outlet passes? Like, what would Wes Unsell say about Russell Westbrook saying, hey, how about you just clear out and let me grab the rebound? I think, I think because I was one of those people in 2017 that did not vote for Russell Westbrook for MVP because I felt like we as a voting bloc, mass of people, we fell in love with the number 10. Like, I asked so many people, if Russ averaged 31, 9 and 9, would he have one MVP? And people said no. Like, so what we doing if we're falling in love with a round number? But on the opposite end of that, the effect of, shall we. Like, his spirit. Like, the effect of like, he's an ass kicker, right? And he walks into a locker room and that sort of thing permeates. And I think with the Kings, you have very docile personalities, like Zach Levine, Demada Sabonis, you know, Demar DeRozan. He's a vet, but he's not a get in your face sort of vet. Russell Westbrook is the guy that is operating with, getting, organizing team dinners, mandatory team dinners on the road, and you better show up and if any other players doing that are you showing up. But if Russell Westbrook is telling you to show up for a non optional team dinner. You're showing up because you don't want that smoke on the other end. So I think there's a, like a duality to the way that we talk about it. Yeah, there's the stat hunting and everything else and that's kind of cringy because that came to define him for a few years. But there's also this dogged leader that people genuinely respect, especially for a team like the Kings that needs it. Like, Russ can't fit on every team, but for a team like the Kings, he almost fits perfectly with what they need right now.
- [07:57]
Vincent Goodwill
It's very purposeful. That was done by Scott Perry, the new GM with Doug Christie as the head coach because they're, that's how they're trying to build this team. And this is in some ways, in many ways is kind of going to be a lost season for the Kings. I mean, I think we all agree it's not necessarily going anywhere, but this is year one of a regime that is trying to reform the image kind of opposite of what the roster says it should be in a lot of ways. And the idea of adding Russell Westbrook is what you were saying. They want an edge. They want to become like this defensive like grit team again. I think they're going like, it's going to take some years and some retooling and some roster change. But this is a mindset thing, defensive grit.
- [08:36]
Brian Windhorst
Let's trade for Zach Levine. I like Zach Levine.
- [08:38]
Vincent Goodwill
Hey, that's why I said the new regime that you know, again, although I, you know, the same owner still sits at top. Who. Yeah, I think we can all say green lit the Zach Levine deal.
- [08:48]
Anthony Slater
But you got, you got, you got to think. Scott Perry is a son of a Pittsburgh Steelers, you know, executive and was an executive himself with the Detroit Pistons during their era. Like, this is a tough minded dude who views basketball through a certain prism and he's going to build a roster that has a certain element of toughness. He's not shying away.
- [09:10]
Vincent Goodwill
Steelers camp every year. I was talking to him the other day. He went to, he's like really friendly with Mike Tomlin and Mike Tomlin opens the doors every year and he goes for like multiple days. And this year he brought BJ Armstrong as assistant GM and Doug Christie and they like stayed out in the dorms of wherever the Steelers.
- [09:26]
Brian Windhorst
St. Vincent College, right?
- [09:27]
Vincent Goodwill
I think, yeah, they spent like five days out there. And so, you know, that's why you got Russell Westbrook. This is the type of team he's trying to build.
- [09:34]
Brian Windhorst
Look, Scott Perry was my teammate for a couple of years at espn, so I rooted for the best. I just think the roster is in a tough spot. Slater, can you update us on where the warriors are? Like Draymond. Draymond. And then Jimmy Butler hurt his back. Draymond was out. Steph's got an illness. What's the status there?
- [09:56]
Anthony Slater
Was it wine? Was it wine flu?
- [09:58]
Vincent Goodwill
No, it was like a legitimate. He sounded horrible post game, after the. The Pacers game, like cough and sniffling. Instead, it was getting worse. I talked to him in the locker room afterwards. You know, it's like, stay back 8ft unless you want to get this. He stayed home. He was like. They did a pregame huddle yesterday in Sacramento. He was on FaceTime. I don't know which player. Somebody had the phone up and he was on FaceTime in the huddle. But he's. He was legitimately sick to the point that he told Steve Kerr yesterday the symptoms were still worsening. And I, you know, I wonder about his status. Friday against Den. Went up for a dunk in Indy. Kind of back tightened up. You know, that's. It's kind of the age of this team. Tried to play through it, you know, on the. In the Suns game. Had to ask out after 14 ineffective minutes. I expect him to still try to give it a go Friday in Denver. Draymond, you know, I think it was. It was. They just utilized the mass rest type night. Draymond actually was the one of the three that made the trip to Sacramento, was on the bench. So that they're generally fine as far as you'll see them soon. But I will say if you're going to ring some alarm bells, it's eight games into the season and you know, Steve Kerr's on the podium talking about how wiped out their stars are. I know it is a condensed early season schedule. They're about to go on a six game trip. It's. They've already played three backs to backs, most in the league, but it's November 6th and they're talking about being wiped out for a stretch. Not. Not a great sign.
- [11:21]
Brian Windhorst
I have two warriors comments. The first time. The next time I see Steph Curry, I don't know when that's going to be, but I am going to talk to him about what I think is one of the greatest feats of his career, which just happened.
- [11:35]
Vincent Goodwill
Okay.
- [11:36]
Brian Windhorst
In this golfing thing that he did with Bryson.
- [11:38]
Anthony Slater
D. Sh.
- [11:39]
Vincent Goodwill
Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.
- [11:40]
Brian Windhorst
You're acting like it's like, I'm joking.
- [11:42]
Vincent Goodwill
He was really proud of the way.
- [11:44]
Brian Windhorst
He played that day, rightfully so. Do you have any idea what I'm talking about, Vinnie?
- [11:49]
Anthony Slater
I heard it on a podcast that Steph was on, which asked me, which brought to me if he had a wine hangover. No, I didn't know exactly what he was talking about.
- [11:58]
Brian Windhorst
This was. This was a. A badass hangover from being a badass. Because I'm telling you, first off, it's just. It's this web series of Bryson D. Sham Go Goes. And I'm not endorsing the series. You don't have to watch it. But this particular episode, it was an hour and 10 minutes long. I wanted it to be three hours long.
- [12:16]
Vincent Goodwill
You watched all at 110?
- [12:18]
Brian Windhorst
Hell, yes, I did. I enjoyed every second of it. And there's this one moment where, you know, Bryson DeChambeau, he's like the. One of the longest hitters in the world. Certainly amongst the professional golfers, there's guys out there who are specialists who, like, only swing like, you know, who aren't real pro players who can hit it longer. But amongst the pro golfers, Bryson's like, top three. And there's this one hole where Bryson hits it and he's like, oh, I got that one pard. I got that one. Whoo. It was a par five. They were trying to get there in two and he's like cracking his knuckles like, I got that one real good. And so the concept of the show is, you know, they're in the cart and they're, you know, they're shooting the. The bleep while they're driving. And so they're driving up and, you know. Yes. Bryson still admires, like, yeah, I've been. I've been waiting. I've been the whole day, I've been holding back for that, this drive. And they get up there and he's like. And it's best as you can see it in real time. He's like, wait a minute, Steph. Steph, you might have got me. Steph, you might have got. First off, he hit like seven jaw dropping shots in the. In the round. And it was a scramble. And I think they used more shots of Steph's than Bryson's. And to be that good and to play that way in that setting, amazing. Second thing I'm going to say about the warriors, you saw this little flare up this week between Draymond and KD about whether defense or offense wins championships. And I know that there's aggregation involved. And KD's, you know, doing his thing on social media. The warriors were the best offense and the best defensive team in those years. End of discussion. Either you got anything to say about that?
- [14:04]
Vincent Goodwill
I mean, it's just true.
- [14:06]
Brian Windhorst
Okay, so like, I'm over. I'm tired of it.
- [14:10]
Vincent Goodwill
I mean, look, Draymond is going to get his takes off, you know, including on the NFL. You know, I think he made some headlines this week. Talk about Dak Prescott. And Kevin Durant is going to respond to take CCS on online. And, you know, your assessment is correct. I mean, that's, that's why they were dominant in that era. Like, you know, think about, you know, the front line with prime. Kd Prime. Draymond in like late prime. Andre Iguodala with Klay Thompson. Prime. Klay Thompson is like, you're just like hound on the perimeter. Yeah, they, those were pretty good defensive teams.
- [14:46]
Anthony Slater
I mean, that's called, that's why it's called a death lineup for a reason. And it wasn't called a death lineup because of how great they were on offense. Like, that was a byproduct, but because you were able to cause like hell on teams for 10 minute stretches where you just prevented them from scoring and you could run away and hide because you could turn defense in the offense better than any team in NBA history. Better than. I mean, look, man, that 2017 warriors team might have, might be the greatest single season team.
- [15:19]
Brian Windhorst
Number one in offensive rating, number two in defensive rating, and it was close enough to the spurs that if there had been a different last week of the season where they maybe played, they might have been number one in both. Okay, then 17, 18, where they already knew they had everybody beat like they knew no one was touching them. So they were three in offense and like six in defense. And that was when they knew that if they just had to tap the gas, that they could just take anybody down. So I'm just saying, number one. Number one. All right, sorry. Detour.
- [15:56]
Vincent Goodwill
More Hoop Collective podcast after this.
- [15:59]
Brian Windhorst
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- [18:17]
Anthony Slater
Well, by all right it depends on what we mean, right? Like I think we're going to get to if, if the rundown is correct. I think I might have a take for you later on. But as far as the Knicks are concerned, Mitchell Robinson last night played 16 minutes, had nine offensive rebounds and two block shots. Like the fact that you can control in today's NBA, if you can control possessions, they shot 53% from the field and like 40 from three and he had nine offensive rebounds in 16 minutes. Like the fact that you are able to control that many possessions in that little stretch of time in a game where you're offensively efficient. And it's not the Jalen Brunson show, it wasn't the Carl Town show. Like OG Anunoby and Mikael Bridges are really sort of having great years. Like OG Anunoby is, I want to say career high shooting. Career high shooting from three career career high rebounding. Career high steals. Career high steals rate. Career high scoring so far. Small sample size, right. But I think A, they play really well at home, Wendy B. They're kind of a bit of. Don't say front running team, but if they get some positive reinforcement, they're going to be fine. And even though they don't necessarily scare anybody in the Eastern Conference like per se, they are bonafide like, this is a good rock. This is a really good top seven. I don't think anybody can deny that.
- [19:41]
Vincent Goodwill
Mike Brown wanted OG Anunoby with the Kings. I remember, remember when Anunoby was with the Raptors. It's, it's one of the things he kind of like craved and never felt like he got in Sacramento, which was like length and power and like veteran, you know, juice on the wing and just the fact that I know he's loving coaching OG Anunoby and Mikhail Bridges is like, you know, this kind of, you know, next stage of his coaching career. What do you. I mean, where are you guys at on like his. The way he's implementing change there. I felt like there were some maybe kind of awkward moments in the first few games, obviously the town stuff, but it's. It seems to be going well. I think it sounds like the three point shooting is, is way up from the role players and you know, it's only however many games in, but they seem to be shifting a little schematically.
- [20:26]
Brian Windhorst
They're so. And I was there a little bit in the preseason and it was pace, pace, pace, pace, pace, pace, pace. You know, it's like every single team was like, we got to have so much pace. I just looked it up. They're 23rd in pace. So it's not like, you know, relative to the league. Last year they were 26th when Jalen Brunson was leading the league in dribbles. So it's not like they're flying up the court. But here's the thing, they've got like, I know this is going to sound like surface level analysis. They've got like eight really good players and like for the last couple weeks most of them have been healthy and so they put eight good players out there and Mike Brown does have them. You know, the Knicks probably have some stats that show that within half court offense they're moving a little bit faster, that they're dribbling less. Because I do think that, you know, that is the case. So maybe there's different ways to define pace, but this is what Mike was hired to do. Was hired to make over their offense. And what you're talking about, Vinnie, with an anobi being sort of activated offensively, like that's what they want. They want less reliance on Jalen Brunson. They got some guys to come off their bench, you know, Jordan Clarkson and no miles McBride's back and he's been doing, been doing good. Like they want that, that sort of stuff off their bench. But, but the point was to get other players going. And OG's a case where that's, that's definitely been the case.
- [22:00]
Anthony Slater
I mean, I will say this, guys. It took Mike Brown 40 minutes to come and talk to us last night in a post game press conference. And I don't think he was addressing the team right. I wonder how much. And this is after they scored 83 points in the second half in a game where Anthony Edwards had just come back from injury, Julius Randle was back at Madison Square Garden again and everything else. And I'm like, I'm curious. Okay. Was Jim Dolan talking to Mike Brown after the game? Like, there's always something around the corner.
- [22:35]
Vincent Goodwill
Did the players talk first?
- [22:38]
Anthony Slater
By the time we. They. And I didn't realize this, but they did wind up opening the locker room while Mike Brown was talking. Like it's a.
- [22:48]
Vincent Goodwill
They did this in Sacramento. Like, Mike would talk after the players and I mean, you said 40 minutes. I'm like, Doug Christie was probably like 1:20 last night. Like Monk went, Westbrook went 1:20 probably. But he was like the last to go. How about it's rare.
- [23:02]
Brian Windhorst
Come on, come on, media. Get, get on that. Correct that.
- [23:06]
Vincent Goodwill
I mean, well, it's, I mean, come pretty quick.
- [23:09]
Brian Windhorst
All due respect, Doug Christie hasn't been coaching like Phil Jackson out there. Like, you know, let's go coach. Come on, Come on. You're a rookie coach.
- [23:16]
Vincent Goodwill
Well, so, so it is new. Like the idea. I've always, it's always been coached first and pretty quick. And then sometimes the players really can linger. And I guess I was asking because, like a lot of times with Mike in Sacramento, it would be players first and then, you know, he'd go. So maybe he just learned that habit or maybe to your point, he's, he's breaking down film with. With Dolan and then, you know, going through picket.
- [23:36]
Brian Windhorst
Definitely Tom Thibodeau did routinely. I don't know what happened. This ain't Vinnie's first time at the Garden. Okay, that's number one. Number two, I don't know what happened. Let's just say that sounds very plausible because Tibbs was known to make sure that he. If. If Mr. Dolan wanted to talk about the game, he did. In fact, years ago, before the Garden renovation, you could, like, there was like a. A room that you could sort of see into, like the coaches area, and there was like a. A window on the door. And the media started noticing that Dolan was going in there and talking to. Talking to the coaches after the game. This is like literally like 10 years ago and maybe even longer. And one day after, one or two days after it was in the paper, they mirrored. They replaced the glass with mirrored glass so that you couldn't see in there.
- [24:27]
Vincent Goodwill
Well, Brian, you said this was Vinnie's first time at the Garden. It also isn't Mike Brown's first time dealing with an owner who might want to talk some strategy post game. He dealt with that somewhat recently in his last stop. So I'm sure he. And you guys know Mike, I'm sure he's sitting there, he's like, what do you want to go through? You know, let's, let's go through rotation patterns or whatever.
- [24:46]
Brian Windhorst
All right, story time.
- [24:47]
Vincent Goodwill
Yeah, here we go.
- [24:49]
Brian Windhorst
I'm sorry, I apologize.
- [24:51]
Vincent Goodwill
Can this, can this take place at the palace of Auburn Hills, please?
- [24:54]
Brian Windhorst
No, it was in Houston. So the late, great David Benner, who is no longer with us, unfortunately, because of cancer, he was the, the PR head of PR for the Pacers for decades. Okay. And he was old school. And back in the 2000 and tens when the heat and the Pacers were going through their wars, I spent a lot of time around Indy. I loved covering those teams. Roy Hibbert, David West, Paul George, Frank Vogel was a coach, and David Benner. There used to be this rule. I think it's still technically the rule, but nobody's pay attention to it for decades, which is that you're supposed to be 10 minutes after the game, there's a 10 minute cooling off period, and then it's supposed to open the locker room. Well, gosh darn it, the Pacers followed the darn rules. And 10 minutes after the game, they would open up the locker room, which, to be honest with you, probably was a little too soon, especially with that team. So one night In Houston, Pacers are there. By the way. This meant that the coach and the block room open at the same time. Vogel would come in right away and a lot of times you wouldn't get the coach. But I know where I would go. I would go that locker room. I got some great stuff out of that was Pacers locker room.
- [26:05]
Vincent Goodwill
Houston great Rose locker room also, by the way.
- [26:08]
Brian Windhorst
All right, agree. So this was sort of the last year of that, that rivalry. The, the, the Pacers had like declared at the beginning of the season that they were going to get the number one seed because they lost in seven at the Heat the year before. And they got to a huge super fast start. Like they, I don't know, something like 25 and 5, like jumped way out in front of the Heat. And the second half of the season, the Heat were walking them down, walking them down, walking them down. And they were struggling. And so they had this, you know, they had lost, you know, they had probably lost like five or six out of seven or whatever. And they had this bad game in Houston where they got blown out. And so locker room opens up right after the game. So in I go. There's only like two people in there. You know, the Indiana doesn't have a big road traveling crew. I don't remember who the beat writer was for the indie star at the time, but they always, always had good beat writers. So I'm sure it was a good one. Anyway, the, a meeting, a players meeting was called while I was in the locker room. Okay, like, like, hey, we're going to have a meeting. So David west calls over who he thinks is like the important players calls over. Hibbert calls over. George Hill calls over. Paul George calls over. You know, I don't remember if Jeff Foster was still on the team.
- [27:31]
Vincent Goodwill
You know, Danny Granger, still a vet.
- [27:33]
Brian Windhorst
On that Danny Granger, I think they traded him that year. I think they just traded him. That was sort of an indication of their concern. He calls over this, this players only meeting and starts having a meeting in the corner locker room. And like Paul George, it may not have been Paul, it may have been somebody else. Notices that Lance Stevenson hasn't been called over to the meeting in the corner because Lance is over there talking, you know, some trash with somebody else. And David west is like, yeah, forget about him. We'll tell him what he needs to know. It was like, ah, forget about him. I just saw Lance a few months ago. Always love seeing Lance. But like literally I was in the locker room so fast after the game That I was there when they had a team meeting, a players only meeting.
- [28:21]
Anthony Slater
So that's pretty.
- [28:22]
Vincent Goodwill
Did you write about it that night?
- [28:24]
Anthony Slater
That's what to say. Did you write about it?
- [28:26]
Brian Windhorst
I definitely talked about it. About how they like, you know, got the. It was pretty much the starters plus whoever the lead. It was like six. It wasn't like the whole team, obviously. It wasn't like the whole room, but it was taking place right there. I mean, I, If I wanted to, I probably could have. I didn't get too close. I didn't want to get thrown into the shower.
- [28:44]
Vincent Goodwill
Just dropped your, like microphone in the middle.
- [28:46]
Brian Windhorst
They gave it West. I wasn't messing with. With David West. Those days are long gone, stuff like that. So anyway, the Knicks are playing better. The whole Eastern Conference. Like, I, I got a hard time figuring out the east right now, Vinnie. Like, yeah, you know, Milwaukee is, is. Is doing really well. They're hitting a lot of threes. They're actually making more threes than they did last year. They led the league in three point percentage last year. And then Brook Lopez walked and then Dame blew out his Achilles and got released and Miles Turner, who they brought in to kind of shoot a little bit to replace Brook Lopez, is having so far not a good shooting season, but A.J. green is hitting everything in sight. So they're doing good. Chicago is continuing to win. There was. They had a really good come from behind win over Philly the other night where the last seven minutes of that game, Philly basically did nothing offensively and the Bulls, Josh Giddey and co. Got him. So that was good. But like, do I trust Milwaukee to keep shooting this way? Do I trust their offense to keep being top five? I don't know. Giannis is dunking five times a game. Lily's dunking five times a game. Maybe.
- [29:59]
Vincent Goodwill
Ryan Rollins looks fantastic also, by the way. That doesn't just look like, oh, he's a nice little story. Like, he looks like a rising guard in the league.
- [30:07]
Brian Windhorst
Props to John Horst for stitching that team together, you know, like, so I don't know, Vinnie.
- [30:13]
Anthony Slater
Like, this is a Doc Rivers team. This is a Doc Rivers pulling a 50 win season out of your keister when you expect absolutely nothing. Like, this is what this is. Looks like that 2019 Clippers team, right? Like before they got Kawhi.
- [30:29]
Vincent Goodwill
Oh, I covered the first round of that series. That's rookie Shea Gilgis Alexander, he was like defensive specialist for that team. They took the last Durant warriors team to six in the first round. That is The I'm Kevin Durant, you know who I am series. Because Beverly was, was, you know, bothering a Montrez Harold. That was a, that was a fun Clippers team.
- [30:48]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, Steve Ballmer loved that Clippers team. He, he was, he was rocking that arm on that sideline all the time. He loved watching that Clippers.
- [30:56]
Vincent Goodwill
And then that summer they, they.
- [30:58]
Anthony Slater
That's what he, that's what he was doing. Kicking the legs.
- [31:01]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. In his plaid shirt. You know, he, you know, he's worth $170 billion and he wears like $40 shirt. Jerry west, his, the late great Jerry west, his last great act. Maybe, maybe I just disputed on this, but one of his last great acts was getting Shea Gildrich Alexander on that team. Because Jerry west and Thad Fauchet, who is Shays agent, essentially guided Shea from Kentucky to the Clippers. And that was an extremely. And I'm sure it was more than just. I'm sure there were other Clipper scouts who liked. Back then, he was just Shea Alexander, but was known as. He was Shea. Always Shay Gildas, but always known as Shay Alexander. That, you know, that, that, you know, talk about an all time what if, you know. But you know, Doc, is, you know that that team ever competed every single night. It's one of the reasons they were so lovable. In fact, when the, the, the, the sort of, the newer Clippers teams happen, like that was sort of the issue, you know, Montrez and Beverly kind of irritated them that they didn't compete every night like that team does. And I mean, look, the Bucks are competing every night too. Doc. Doc believes that, you know, like I, I've heard Doc say, like, I think this team can win the East. Like, I didn't believe it, but like I, you know, he, he sold that, he sold that to Giannis. Giannis believes that on some level.
- [32:23]
Vincent Goodwill
So that part of that is like the lack of a juggernaut in the East. Right. I mean, I think we'd all agree it's wide open in a sense. So.
- [32:30]
Anthony Slater
And not just that, my, my general question is, and I don't know if you were going here, Wendy, but there's no second tier or defined tier two in the Eastern Conference where you were talking about, well, how does Milwaukee look? How does Cleveland, I mean, not Cleveland, how does Chicago look? How does Philly look? How does Detroit look? I'm sure, like, there's no defined team that's behind Cleveland in New York as like, okay, this is who's chasing those teams. To me, that's what Makes the next two and a half months really interesting in the Eastern Conference because Milwaukee doesn't have the assets to make a move like they're up against the second apron. Right. If you are one of those teams, if you are, say, maybe the Detroit Pistons. And I'm not saying it's because it's.
- [33:13]
Vincent Goodwill
That's a segue and everything else, that's a segue.
- [33:15]
Anthony Slater
But, but just in general, if you are a team that has the assets, the picks, the players to go and make an impactful personnel move because you see an opening, because you're not afraid of Cleveland and New York, one of those teams is going to step up. Like the rosters that we see now not going to be the rosters that we see come to trade deadline. Like, let's say Orlando gets their stuff together, Atlanta's a team to watch. That's because of the Trey Young stuff. But if you are a team like Detroit, do you say, you know what, let's call Danny Ainge and see and see if we can get Danny Ainge on the phone and see what it would take. It would take everything. Right. Because Danny ain't just going to rob you. Right. But what would it take for Lowry Marketing?
- [33:56]
Brian Windhorst
All right, See, Slater, we were having a nice little early season podcast.
- [34:02]
Vincent Goodwill
Yes.
- [34:03]
Anthony Slater
I'm sorry, did I do something?
- [34:05]
Vincent Goodwill
No, no, he just, he deadlined it up.
- [34:08]
Brian Windhorst
No, he just, he poured some. He, he's like, listen, we're going to, we're going to downshift. Yes. Yes. This is not the first time I've had this conversation. Could Detroit. Okay, so first off, Detroit is 6.
- [34:21]
Anthony Slater
And 2 and not playing well offensively.
- [34:24]
Brian Windhorst
Cade is, is. His numbers are ordinary. I mean, they're good, but they're like ordinary. Jaden Ivy's not really doing much.
- [34:33]
Anthony Slater
He's not playing yet.
- [34:35]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, Jalen Duran and, and Isaiah Stewart are having some games, but they're six and two and they kind of have to look around and say what you say, what, what you just said. And like, it's not the first time it's been raised. To me, they control their draft picks. Right. They've got tradable contracts on their roster. You know, the, for example, the Duncan Robinson contract was, you know, they, they signed him. You know, it was a sign and trade maneuver. It was an effort to, to fill in some of their three point shooting loss. I mean, but that contract was signed to be able to be used in a trade after December.
- [35:11]
Vincent Goodwill
It was basically a quiet, quiet version of the Kaminga contract.
- [35:14]
Brian Windhorst
Right.
- [35:15]
Vincent Goodwill
I mean, it's not, not as much bluster but kind of the same tool.
- [35:19]
Brian Windhorst
Well it's, it's, it's a contract that you know that I don't think I've ever really seen before which is that maybe it's happened before but It's. It was three years and like 45 million but only the first year was guaranteed. You very rarely, I mean you see some big non guarantees out there but you rarely see only the first year of a three year contract that level be guaranteed. And then of course and by the way I think I don't want to.
- [35:42]
Anthony Slater
Buy Sarah is a similar deal.
- [35:43]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. Tobias Harris. I don't want to like say like oh yeah, yeah just trade him because he plays an important role there. He's really helped them. But.
- [35:51]
Anthony Slater
Right.
- [35:51]
Brian Windhorst
Real talk. Tobias Harris on an expiring $26 million contract. If you want to talk about something that might happen, you know you talk about that also contract they signed Caris Levert to in the summer. It was a two year contract if they had to. Very tradable. So you know, Trajan Langdon and Dennis Lindsay like they think this team might be able to do something but if you're looking for a team that can, they can, that might be sniffing Detroit's on the list and so now you're bringing it up on November six. Vinnie. So like you know, but, but I'm, I'm in agreement with you. I'm in agreement with you.
- [36:26]
Anthony Slater
I, I think in the last two fourth quarters K. Cunningham in Memphis and last night home in Utah. So take it with a grain. 19 in the fourth quarter in both games like he's the overall numbers he got to a slow start especially shooting but that whole clutch thing and recognizing oh a game is here for the taking. I'm going to take it like that is an element that of maturity that you're seeing in him and he's doing this without a second guy like Duncan Robinson is shooting 40 from three but on very low volume relative to today's game just because he's older and can't get to the open shots the way that he, that he needs to. And their defense I think is really really, you know, really good. You can play bigger now in today's NBA like you can play Jalen Duran and Isaiah Stewart together and you know, Ron Holland and Asar Thompson. Asar Thompson. I think guys we're, we're going to be seeing something here. We can pay a lot of attention to Amend Thompson but Asar Thompson ain't far behind. But I think there's a way. There's a world for them to keep the Assar Thompsons of the world and the Ron Hollands of the world and to get a bonafide second score that can aid Cade Cunningham. And the question you just generally have to ask Cade Cunningham and not just Kate Cunningham, Trajan Langdon and J.B. bickerstaff and owner Tom Gores is, are you happy with the internal growth from everybody and maybe get into the second round this year, or do you want to go for it because you are looking at the east and saying this is for the taking.
- [37:53]
Vincent Goodwill
Should maybe ask Cade Cunningham, too. He's probably rising to that level where he should be management.
- [37:59]
Brian Windhorst
It's kind of comparable. I mean, Orlando doesn't have a player like Cade. They don't have an all NBA. Well, I don't know.
- [38:06]
Vincent Goodwill
Well, Paulo's supposed to be that.
- [38:07]
Brian Windhorst
Okay, okay, let me take a step back. They might. Cade has proven to be, I think, a cut above Paolo. I think Paolo can get there. But Orlando had this same sort of set of circumstances, and they went out and got Desmond Bain. Now they like Desmond Bain because he, they liked how he fits. By the way, Orlando's off to a very rough start. They are. They're getting. No offense. We'll talk about them at a later time. But Orlando had the same sort of circumstances and they, they were like, okay, we're going to go get a guy that we think matches with our group of players. You know, they've got Palo signed long term. They've got Franz Wagner signed long terms. They've got Jalen Suggs signed long term. They go, let's go get a guy who signed long term who fits our group and does that. And so I think Detroit, like, I don't think, like what you're saying. I don't think you go rent a player.
- [38:55]
Anthony Slater
No.
- [38:56]
Brian Windhorst
You know, you're not going to go say, hey, let's try to do this in 25, 26, necessarily. But if you can find a player that you think fits next to Cade and next to Duran and you know those young guys, today is not the day where this would happen, but this is a conversation that other people are going to be having. I think, let's put it this way. This is a conversation that Vinny brought up that smart people in the NBA are having. And I'm not that smart. It wasn't me, like, somebody who I think is really smart said it to me this week. What about Detroit? Could Detroit get, you know, you know what should happen? Detroit should go for player X, which I ain't going to say right now because I ain't looking for aggregation.
- [39:34]
Vincent Goodwill
But is Player X a pretty spicy name? Would it.
- [39:38]
Brian Windhorst
No, no, it's not a spicy name. It's a name like Desmond Bain, who you didn't necessarily see being traded, but would, would fit and you know, would fit with them. So, like, because, you know, we didn't see Bain getting traded, that can kind of came out of nowhere and they paid a premium. Well, Detroit's in position where they could pay a premium and because they're in good position on the aprons and because they control all their assets and they got expirings, they can do, they could do something, something like that. But you just had it. You just. Hey, Slater.
- [40:07]
Vincent Goodwill
Yeah.
- [40:07]
Brian Windhorst
Vinnie is a verified ESPN guy now because he had a sit down interview. Oh, you had a sit down interview with Cade Cunningham.
- [40:16]
Anthony Slater
That's cute.
- [40:17]
Vincent Goodwill
Tell us about it.
- [40:19]
Anthony Slater
Oh, well, I mean, I guess that was a segue.
- [40:21]
Vincent Goodwill
No, he's, he's not quite certified ESPN yet. That was, that was the promoted. Come on.
- [40:26]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, yeah.
- [40:26]
Anthony Slater
Oh, yeah, that's, that's a new thing.
- [40:28]
Brian Windhorst
No, days ago now.
- [40:30]
Anthony Slater
But no, yeah, it, it came a few days ago. I did the sit down like a couple weeks ago actually. So it kind of left. It was, it was one of those weird sit around for four hours days. It was, it was a day that a bunch of rallies were being held nationwide. I'm not sure if y' all remember that day. A lot of, a lot of, a lot of things were held that day.
- [40:47]
Vincent Goodwill
But no head coach of the team I primarily cover went to one of.
- [40:51]
Anthony Slater
Those, one of the questions that I posed to K. Cunningham and I don't know if it made the final cut, so maybe this whole thing can be repurposed. But I asked him like, hey, you're not happy being one of the most improved guys in the league? He's like, it's not beneath me, but I consider myself somebody who should be in the conversation for mvp. Like, I'm not shy, you know, to say that. And I think when you look at this guy in his pedigree, number one pick only worked out for one team going into that draft. You know, the Kevin Durant's, the LeBrons, the Steph Currys, they've all, all giving him the certified stamp. Like he is of a pedigree in a way that we don't see guys being in a pedigree anymore. Like homegrown American born players. Like that sort of thing doesn't really exist as much anymore. And I think he. I will say this, guys, and you guys see if you guys rock with me on this one. Players of today's generation who come up through the AAU program are by and large so exhausted that they don't want to be team leaders and franchise guys when they come to the NBA. There's so many me, it's too much basketball. It's too much of the system. I think that's kind of why you see the John Morantz, the Zion Williamson sort of are just out of nowhere, burned out. Cade has like this diplomat element to him where he understands I'm the franchise guy. Everything revolves around me. Not in like an arrogant way.
- [42:17]
Vincent Goodwill
Oklahoma State. Gotta be Oklahoma State.
- [42:20]
Anthony Slater
Maybe that's what it is. Them Cowboys, right? The only problems from Kate is that he's from Dallas. Like, that's the only issue with Kate is that he's a Dallas guy and, and he's a Cowboys fan. Like, that's, that's the only thing other than that he fits the profile of everything that we say we want out of an NBA superstar. Go to college for a year, take your team to the tournament, go to a bad franchise, lift them up year after year and get there. And he's kind of on this trajectory where, I mean, he's, he's. If you think about him in the mode of a Shea or Luka Doncic in terms of big guard volume, can dominate a game from a bunch of different ways. He's in that category. Maybe not at that level, but he's.
- [43:02]
Vincent Goodwill
At that category now improving significantly, too. I, I'm not ashamed to admit I really watched the NBA through a Western Conference lens. And I tuned into two Pistons games.
- [43:13]
Brian Windhorst
Coastal Elites, there we go.
- [43:16]
Vincent Goodwill
I tuned into two Pistons games recently. Not because of the Pistons, but they were in Mexico City facing the Mavericks. And I wanted to see this situation in Dallas, which I think Windhorse is probably. You got, you got a segment maybe coming up on the, on the Mavericks game.
- [43:29]
Brian Windhorst
Guys, don't. Don't be getting ahead on the rundown here, okay? This is all organic. Nothing is talked about beforehand. This is just. We just have all this information ready at our fingertips, so don't pull back the curtain.
- [43:42]
Vincent Goodwill
You know, I watched them, you know, close out the Mavericks in Mexico City. It was like a late night game. And then I want to see what's going on in Memphis. It was, it was Jaws. First game, post suspension. And so I'm tuning into the fourth quarter to just see the jaw situation that, you know, that's why I'm watching the game. And, and within that game, I think it was like a pretty fascinating juxtaposition of two teams and two star guards going in opposite directions is like, you know, that fourth quarter was going on. You just kind of just feel the Ja Moran era in a lot of ways slipping. And within that, they were. It was slipping that night because Cade Cunningham just seems so stable, you know, and, and so on the rise and just like in control of his team and his franchise and his situation. And again, I'm watching this because I'm trying to watch a franchise that it feels like it's. It's kind of going the opposite direction. And, and just within that, you're like, man, like, I'm just like, wow, Cade looks unbelievable in this fourth. And it's not this stat line that we're all going to talk about the next day, but it's just. You can see where it's going and you can see it's going that way because of control.
- [44:43]
Anthony Slater
That's where you see.
- [44:44]
Brian Windhorst
You see the control jaw is shooting 14 on threes. He was a 1 of 7 on Wednesday night.
- [44:50]
Anthony Slater
All right, he's a top 10 point guard.
- [44:53]
Brian Windhorst
You guys were at games working on Wednesday night. He is. Are you. Are you. You're disputing Bon Temps. You don't. Von Temps is.
- [45:00]
Anthony Slater
I. I get you. I get your point that he's a top 10 talent. He's just not playing like a top 10 point.
- [45:05]
Brian Windhorst
Well, that's right. Now, there's not a debate on that. You know, Bonteps and I have our Friday intel file that comes out every Friday, and we have a big section on John Morant coming on Friday. And I spent a lot of time this week talking to people about Tuomas Asalo, and I spent a lot of time talking to people in Europe about him who know about him and know what he wants. And that's somewhat in there. And the thing is, like, a Salo's system and Asalo himself thought this, like, he thought this was absolutely perfect for Ja. He thought this was going to work out great. Like when they made the move off of Taylor Jenkins and the. And the Nola Roche system to the way Asala wants to play. They thought this was going to be perfect, and it's obviously not. And I will just say that I've seen this before with guys who come from college or overseas who have these systems or these temperaments that work over there, and there's no reason why they shouldn't work in the NBA. But for the Most part they don't. And we're still very early into it. And I'm not saying it's not, but I've been around long enough to see the Cavs wear blue uniforms so long ago that it's now a throwback. I've been around long enough to see stuff like this, so we'll see more.
- [46:20]
Vincent Goodwill
Hoop Collective podcast after this.
- [46:28]
Brian Windhorst
Anyway, before we go, while you guys were working at games on Wednesday night, I was watching pretty much from start to finish, but definitely every second of the second half. The Pelicans Mavericks game. This was not a Western Conference finals preview. I want to just say that right now. Props to the Pelicans, who've crawled up off of the mat and gotten back to back wins. And Zion is now out indefinitely with a hamstring. It's his fifth significant hamstring injury, which is another topic for another day. This was a brutal game to watch down the stretch. I'm going to tell you, I wouldn't, I can't say this like unequivocally, like every possession, but generally without being an advanced scout who knows all of the play calls and whatever, I'm here to tell you. Dallas ran nothing in the fourth quarter of that game. Nothing on offense in that game. Look, I got it. I know AD is was is out and that he would be a leveraging point for their offense. I know. I know that their star point guard is recovering and they're sort of in this intermediate zone where they might be getting him back sooner than imagined. And so they can't. They ran nothing and got beat on on their home court by the Pelicans, who were, okay, Sadiq Bay, like, pretty much willed at home. Trey Murphy made a few plays. They were running like they were giving the ball the Cooper flag and saying, cooper, see what you got. And the only way the game got down to the last minute was Daniel Gafford had a couple of put backs. He saved her. Best offense down the stretch of the game was Daniel Gafford put backs. Despite all that, Cooper had a wide open 15 footer at the buzzer to force overtime. And there was actually a funny moment. So Derek Queen, who I'm. I'm still learning about, I learned about these rookies. I don't have this long. I mean, I'm not Jonathan Gavoni, okay? I'll never be Jonathan Gavoni. I'm still learning about these guys. But I'm learning that Derek Queen is kind of a goofball. As I watched Pelican Swiss, you're The.
- [48:36]
Vincent Goodwill
One that gave me, like an AJ DebonSA, like, deep breakdown.
- [48:40]
Brian Windhorst
That is different. I've spent some time getting to know AJ and. And yeah, that's different. But I certainly wouldn't tell you. Like, I could analyze his game in the case, you know, I'm still learning. Derrick Queen's kind of a goofball. So Derek Queen, I don't know what he was supposed to do, but he kind of botched the last possession. I think he was supposed to step up and defend Cooper, but instead he, like, backed up to defend, like a lob or something. And he, like, gave Cooper Flag a wide open, like, 15 foot shot. Even though they ran nothing down the stretch, they ended up with a chance to send the game to overtime. Cooper missed it, and he was furious. The one thing I do know about Cooper Flag, he's a crazy competitor. He was furious that he missed that shot. Okay? And Derek Queen was his teammate at Mount Verde Academy in Orlando two years ago.
- [49:25]
Vincent Goodwill
And this guy's got deep background. Breakdown. I don't know what he's deep cut.
- [49:29]
Brian Windhorst
He comes up and he's like, you know, you know that thing that people do, they do the shoulder rub, like, you know, the bottoms, the botanics is known to do it. I will agree. Bontemps is known to do it. But Cooper Flag did not want to be touched by anybody in the world in this moment. And he sure didn't want to be touched by the guy in the other team, even if he was his high school teammate. And so he comes up, he has just missed the last shot. And this fourth quarter has been crap offense by the Mavericks. And he's. He's rubbing his shoulder, rubbing Cooper's shoulder, like, hey, man, how's it going? I got you. Seriously, Cooper might have hit him. And another time in place, Cooper might have swung. If this was 1975 instead of 2025, Cooper, he might have given it to him. And then after the game, and this was on. This was on NBA. NBA put this on their Twitter. They did a jersey swap. And Derek was just. Derrick. Queens had a good week, by the way. You know, he's finished the last two games they've won. Derek Queen was in a great mood. He was swapping jerseys, you know, high school friends, you know, this is great. And Cooper was not amused. Like, go, go watch. You can go see it. Cooper's face says it all. And he got to the post game press conference. He's like, I've never lost like this. And I'm telling you, like, I don't know what's going on. Dallas's situation right now is unacceptable.
- [50:45]
Vincent Goodwill
Well, can I say something about that quick, though? Because it's, it is kind of funny where the short term goals of the organization and certainly of the general manager who's like under constant fire are to win now. And they have a bunch of veterans who are going to be extremely upset about the fact that they, that they're two and six. But couldn't you take the long view? And I know you guys have at times on this podcast and say, might be good to be 2 and 6 and to give your first overall pick a bunch of battle scars like miss jumpers. And because you're building around him, is it better for them to sneak in the playoffs? I'm sure the veterans would love that. Nico Harrison would love that for his job security. Or would it be better to just get a top four pick and a loaded draft and rebuild around Cooper long term and get Cooper a bunch of battle scars? You tell me.
- [51:26]
Anthony Slater
Look, didn't we, I will say this, I will just zoom out just a little bit. Jason Kidd put the hand, the ball in the hands of Giannis Antetokounmpa, I think it was 2016 or 17 and said, Giannis, you're going to be my point guard. And it was rough at times, but it aided greatly in the development of Giannis Antetokoun to the point where two years later he's an mvp. But by that point, Jason Kidd had lost his job and there was all this controversy around that. Right? But he got the battle scars from it. It just looked ugly in the moment. Is that what we're seeing with Cooper flag right now? Like, no, he's not a natural point guard or anything. Like people know that's, that's not what he is. And let's be honest, Kyrie Irving ain't a natural point guard either. And I'm not saying that to crap on Kyrie. I'm just saying even once Kyrie comes back, if he comes back this season, it's not like they're just going to hand the ball to Kyrie and Kyrie's going to handle the ball for the 35 to 40 minutes a night. Setting up the offense like that's not the best use of his talent either. Maybe you're just, maybe you're trying to hold water. Maybe it's a bad plan, right? It could just be an overall bad plan. But I understand the thought of, hey, if you going to have to make these decisions one way or the other anyway, and it's going to hurt whether you're on the wing or whether you're at the top of the key, it's going to hurt. Last night's game was going to hurt either way just because of the rosters that have been compiled. Wendy, I'm not that hurt about Cooper flag getting the scars now. I'm okay with that because I think it pays off later.
- [52:56]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, generally I think you're right. Although Giannis wasn't 18 when they asked him to do it. I keep comparing Cooper flag situation to LeBron's situation when he was a rookie where that team was just, you know, up a creek and they handed LeBron the reigns and he was totally ill equipped. And by the way, that team started 4 and 15, but that team didn't.
- [53:16]
Vincent Goodwill
Mind starting 4 and 15.
- [53:17]
Brian Windhorst
So that's, that's, that's where I was going. So that's the thing. Like, and by the way, Cooper's comment, like Jackson put up the numbers. His, he lost, he lost three games and all of, he lost three games, three or four games in all of high school and then he lost four at Dukes and the Master 2 and 6. LeBron, I think, lost seven games in high school and the Cats, I said, started 4 and 15 that year and there was just. LeBron had a mess. There were a lot of nights like this that LeBron, you know, but the circumstances of the team were completely different. And so I'm just saying, like, and by the way, what ended up happening with that team was midway through that year, LeBron's rookie year, they went out and traded for a point guard and everything worked so much better. And yeah, down the line LeBron was ready and I guess he learned some lessons from that. But you know, I'm, I'm not going to say that a game in the first week of November defines the season. I'm just telling you, like, that was a rough situation there and Cooper was out there trying to do something and he was in the deep end of the pool, thrashing around, which again, it's fine for an 18 year old. Like, that's all cool, but like give him some help somewhere, somehow, otherwise you're going to be 4 and 15.
- [54:26]
Vincent Goodwill
Yeah, and, and that would be really, really bad for a lot of the current employees of the Dallas Mavericks players front office. All that for sure. But I could hear an argument that the ten year plan of this franchise is, it might not be horrific for the direction that the, for the franchise.
- [54:45]
Brian Windhorst
Well, you're talking about a ten year plan.
- [54:48]
Vincent Goodwill
They're on like a ten minute plan.
- [54:49]
Brian Windhorst
I know they're two. Their two best players are in their 30s. All right, guys, I really enjoyed it. Thank you very much for. We're gonna. We're gonna make this a thing. I like you too. I might keep you guys around in the collective.
- [55:01]
Vincent Goodwill
I'm. I'm making it a goal. Anytime us three are on a podcast together. I'm gonna somehow get y' all to do at least one Central Division story time.
- [55:10]
Anthony Slater
I'm not that old. Slater.
- [55:11]
Vincent Goodwill
I wouldn't have predicted the Pacers were going to be the one today, but that's it.
- [55:15]
Brian Windhorst
I loved covering that team. You know, another quick story from.
- [55:21]
Vincent Goodwill
Got two.
- [55:23]
Brian Windhorst
I don't remember which year it was. It might have been that year, but the Heat played the Pacers in the conference finals. And on the last play of the game, I think it was game one, LeBron got a layup to the rim, Remember? Yeah, Was at the, like, right within a second to win the game.
- [55:42]
Vincent Goodwill
And off an inbound, it was like, yes.
- [55:44]
Brian Windhorst
And Frank Vogel had taken Roy Hibbert out of the game. And once again, the Pacers, much respect. They've been there 10 minutes. That locker room is open. And in Miami, there is not really a. There's a coach's office, but it's really small, and it was back then. And the, The. The video coordinator was set up in the middle of the locker room. And so I come in the locker room and Frank Vogel is with the video coordinator on the screen watching the play, watching the last play for the first time. And I go, he goes, he's watching it. I'm watching him watch it. He goes, run it again, run it again, run it again. And I'm watching him take in watching how they botched the. The design of the last play. And he just, Just put his head as a championship head coach. Now, I'm not trying to take a. You know, this guy got him to the conference finals and he just puts his head in his hands and he was like, f. Because. And I, you know, I got to see that role. I mean, it's really awesome that I got to see that. And by the way, there's another. You remember a couple years ago when the, When Derrick White was with the Celtics and the Celtics pulled that game out of their rear end when he hit that, that put back layup.
- [56:55]
Anthony Slater
Yeah, yeah.
- [56:56]
Vincent Goodwill
I was on the Heat, right?
- [56:58]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, he was on the Heat in the conference finals. And that was where both, you know, Jimmy Butler, like, they went up to Boston and had that amazing win. And they come down to Miami and it looks like they're dead. And they win game six. Force game seven. So Jarrick White hits this put back layup and everybody goes to the post game press conference. And they open the locker room. And I'm now in the Celtics locker room and there's nobody in there. And the layup happened like seven or eight minutes earlier, maybe 12 minutes earlier. Okay. These are rare times. And I know so many of those Celtics players well because those guys were on Team usa, You know, Marcus Smart and Derrick White and Jalen Brown and. And Jason Tatum. I know all those guys from hanging out with him in China. Okay. You know, being in Manila and stuff like that. So I'm in there and Derek White hasn't seen the play yet. He hasn't seen the play. And Worldwide Wob, our man, our man on X had tweeted out like a four box of four different angles. And I remember giving Derek my phone and getting, letting him see the four different angles of the play. He hadn't seen that. You know, they didn't, they didn't have the replay there yet or the guys hadn't seen on their phones yet. He got to see, see the four angles of like the, the shot of his life to that point. It's like those moments are cool. They're few and far between because they don't open locker room. And there's reasons for that. But I'm just saying that's pretty cool.
- [58:23]
Vincent Goodwill
It's not, it's not as bad as people think.
- [58:25]
Brian Windhorst
There's.
- [58:26]
Vincent Goodwill
It's still open. It's still raw, still fresh.
- [58:28]
Anthony Slater
You cover the Golden State Warriors, Anthony Slater, That's a World 2025 come cover.
- [58:37]
Vincent Goodwill
A Warriors road trip.
- [58:38]
Brian Windhorst
Listen, I'm just saying, like all the, and I told all these. I wrote all that story that night. Like, you know, the storyte gets better with access. That's my point. So. All right, thank you, Slater. Thank you, Vinnie. Thank you to Jackson, our producer. Thank you for watching. Listen to Collective all week long and we'll talk to you guys next week.