Juju Chang (2:22)

Absolutely. I mean, you know, it's one of those things where you look at footage of her talking in Google hangouts with her friends. You look at her picture, which is still memorialized on the bridge. She was a young woman who clearly had a lot of light in her life. But you also get a sense from a lot of the audio that we were able to delve into how the investigators approach this story. You know, we had all these 2020 interviews with the search crews who went out initially when they thought maybe when they found her car on the side of a bridge, maybe she jumped, maybe she had fled to Canada and they were searching frantically for her body. Then you start getting the audio of the investigators interviewing all of her closest friends and family, trying to get to the bottom of it. And then, of course, the mystery starts to un. And you get real police interrogations. And I went onto the bridge where, you know, her car was found. And it's a really big, tall bridge. It's a working class town. Everybody in the town sort of was riveted by the story because when she disappeared, it was such a mystery.

Brad Milke (3:23)

What's it like there?

Juju Chang (3:24)

Well, when you drive through the neighborhoods, it's a classic sort of working class shore town. You know, small, little, neat gingerbread type houses. And she came from an area called Neptune City. The suspects that emerge during this case are childhood friends of hers. They went to elementary school together. They hung out at the pizza shop. They were, you know, local kids.

Brad Milke (3:47)

Hey. And when we think about Sarah, like, she was very much part of this online community, kind of ahead of her time. If you look at how, like, just influencer driven the media landscape is now. She was at the time following people that we would probably call content creators. It was clear that back then, police did not know how to categorize, like, this world. She fancied the idea of becoming kind of an online personality herself. And your team, you mentioned, actually found Google hangout videos that she and her friends would publish. Like, what did you kind of learn from these?

Juju Chang (4:14)

So we were able to uncover a lot about her. We found her old tweets and her Tumblr posts. We really got a sense of her humor. I mean, also we figured out how she decorates her bedroom. And she had, you know, dimples when she smiled. And there are all sorts of, you know, details about how she loved Disneyland and, you know, Just getting a sense of who she was. The cool thing about these Google hangouts was that you get to see Sarah being a normal teenager, kind of being silly, kind of chill, hanging with her friends. And with this YouTube channel, you get to know her and the sound of her voice. But we have a little bit of tape, actually, of Sarah Googling her name to see what pops up. If you look up Sarah Stern, there's, like, no dance. You'll see me. Sarah. Sarah Silverman. And then there's, like, sarah. Sarah Palin.

Brad Milke (5:01)

Just like, what, Juju, it's wild hearing that, because in some ways, the Internet is a reflection of what the world knows about you. And, you know, you Google yourself and you hear these Google searches bringing up other Sarahs, like Sarah Silverman or Sarah Palin. She just sounds, like, almost disappointed.

Juju Chang (5:17)

Absolutely. You know, you also hear her voice. She's 19. She's, you know, she's a kid as far as I'm concerned, because I have children that age, and I feel like you. You get a glimpse into what her friends were doing at the time, and that is where a lot of the investigation is centered, is with her friends and how much they hung out, what they knew, what she trusted, when she told them secrets, and that is how the mystery unfolds.

Brad Milke (5:44)

As a journalist yourself, like, what made this sort of a unique story? Like, were there particular aspects or components here that made you go like, whoa, this actually stands out in a different way than I'm used to.

Juju Chang (5:56)

So Sarah's mother died when she was younger, and it was the source of two issues. One was that obviously she was sad, but the other thing is that she then, after her mother passed, she discovered some cash. Actually, a lot of it, some of it that had been damaged because it was so old.

Unidentified Male (possibly Anthony Curry or another male involved in sting operation) (6:14)

Right.

Juju Chang (6:15)

That became a focal point of the investigation. Obviously, what that cash did was incentivize the people who betrayed her. The thing that stuck out to me, though, Brad, which is your question, is that there was another young friend who was in this same group of friends who decided that when this happened, his conscience made him step forward and say, you know what? I had information on what happened, and that is what led to this sort of daring sting operation. And he risked his life, you know, getting in the car with a suspected killer. And that, to me, really sort of hit my heart.

Brad Milke (6:53)

I gotta tell you, Juju, like, listening to this episode with the sort of hidden camera and microphone in the car. I was walking my dog, and I'm just, like, stopped there on the sidewalk listening to this tape. Because how often have you just heard a suspect bear it all like that? Like, what was it like when you heard that tape for the first time?

Juju Chang (7:10)

I felt the same way you did. It stopped me in my tracks. Because there are a couple of things on that tape, and that's what makes it such a great podcast. Right? It all is audio. Right. You hear him kind of nervously singing as he's on his way to the rendezvous point. His friend pats him down, bro, right before he starts to confess. Then the investigators say, I've never heard a confession spill out so fast because

Brad Milke (7:34)

it barely took any prompting.

Juju Chang (7:35)

It barely took any prompting. He admits to all of it and he describes it in such horrible, gruesome detail. Then he talks about how the dog witnessed all of it, which was really left me cold. And then finally the sigh at the end where he gets out of the car and he knows he's got the goods and he just exhales. And the sound of that, literally thinking about it gives me goosebumps.

Brad Milke (8:02)

Well, and it feels like all of us in that moment is like, what did I just listen to? But obviously so much more high stakes for him completely. And by the way, Juju, we edit it down in Bridge of Lies, of course, because it's like a 45 minute video that they took from that car and there is material that did not make it into the episode. Anything that stuck out to you?

Juju Chang (8:21)

Absolutely. I can't imagine how much adrenaline is going through Anthony Curry's body right. During this 45 minutes, but at one point, they're parked on a dark beach parking lot, and they're, you know, the glass is getting foggy, and they're in there together and he's sitting with his friend who he thinks may have killed another friend. And then somebody knocks on the window. Somebody comes up to them and knocks on the window of the car and they have to, like, deal with this woman.

Unidentified Male (possibly Anthony Curry or another male involved in sting operation) (8:52)

How do you roll this window? Then it's over. Can you guys do me a huge favor?

Juju Chang (8:55)

Give me a ride, like, right down the road?

Unidentified Male (possibly Anthony Curry or another male involved in sting operation) (8:56)

Nah, I can't. I got so much in my back. I'm sorry, I can't.

Juju Chang (9:00)

Really?

Unidentified Male (possibly Anthony Curry or another male involved in sting operation) (9:00)

Yeah.

Juju Chang (9:01)

Please.

Unidentified Male (possibly Anthony Curry or another male involved in sting operation) (9:02)

Nah, I really can't. I'm sorry about that. What the. Yeah. Nah, nah, hell no. I'm not giving you rush. You could steal my equipment and out of here. You don't know who you're talking to about killing people. You're gonna ask me for a ride. Get the out of here.

Brad Milke (9:25)

That's wild juju. They're just getting interrupted in the middle of, like, kind of the height of this.

Juju Chang (9:30)

Absolutely. And he even says, I'm sitting here talking about killing people. And she knocks on the door, and it's just so real because she says to them, really? You can't give me a ride in the middle of. I mean, it's just such drama. And the thing is, in that moment, Anthony later tells us that he thought that it was part of the operation, that maybe the whole sting was about to go up in smoke.

Unidentified Male (possibly Anthony Curry or another male involved in sting operation) (9:52)

I always thought that was like a detective, but everybody's saying it wasn't. It was just some random lady. I thought it was like they were just checking up. I didn't know how this works. I never had to go through something like that before. I thought they were, like, checking up, but it apparently wasn't. It was just some random lady.

Juju Chang (10:06)

It's wild. What are the odds, right?

Brad Milke (10:08)

Unbelievable moments. And when we're talking about stuff that was sort of on the cutting room floor. When we come back, let's focus on our host. Let's talk about Juju Chang and where she kind of fits into this whole story. We're back after this.

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Unidentified Male (possibly Anthony Curry or another male involved in sting operation) (14:21)

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Juju Chang (14:22)

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Juju Chang (15:08)

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Brad Milke (15:17)

And we are back. And I'm extra excited for this part because, Juju, I want to talk about you because you've been with ABC News since well before me. You've been covering huge stories. You've been the face of the network in so many ways. You're a pro now with Bridge of Lies. You add something new. You're podcast host all of a sudden. How different is an audio podcast from the TV work that you've always done?

Juju Chang (15:38)

Well, I have to say, hats off to the podcasting team here at ABC Audio. This is my, as you say, my first voyage into the world of podcasting. And it's such a different kind of storytelling, which I respect so much because, you know, I love the idea of sound design. Right. Because you're just sort of able to layer it with sound and music and audio, and you get to live in the audio of it in a different way. And you know, the one cue that I kept getting from our producers, like, Juju, slow down. Like, you know, at think about what you're saying. Build a visual picture. And it was really helpful because I'm used to doing it in a broadcast voice where you can see the picture that I'm describing. Right, Right. But now we're slowing down and asking you to create those images in your own head. And it's a stirring, different kind of podcast. And you know, Brad, I'm a huge fan of podcasts. I listen to start here every day. I'm constantly emailing you.

Brad Milke (16:34)

You text Me after episodes? You like, right?

Juju Chang (16:36)

I constantly text you after episodes. And I'm a girl who listens to podcasts on my dog walk every day, so I understand and appreciate this level of detail when it comes to this kind of storytelling.

Brad Milke (16:47)

Yeah, but juju for people who don't know, like, what is the actual process? Like. Like, how does the actual pod come together in your eyes?

Juju Chang (16:54)

Well, to my mind, I am incredibly impressed by our producers because they're leapfrogging each other on episodes. Right. And they know this material cold. I mean, I've worked on a lot of 2020producers are phenomenal as well. But these podcast producers have literally read every transcript. They've read every court document. They're constantly, like, schooling me on, no, no, you can't change that word juju. And it's incredibly layered, Right? Not just the editorial, but the sounds and the music and everything else that helps create this richness of the scenery that goes into this kind of podcasting.

Brad Milke (17:33)

It is interesting how much of a team operation it is that I think people don't quite understand. Right?

Juju Chang (17:37)

No, absolutely. Plus, I get to sit in the studio and wear sweatpants and not worry about what my hair and makeup look like.

Brad Milke (17:45)

Yeah, exactly. Hey, and in a broader news sense, because you've covered lots of different types of stories, what draws you to a true crime story? Like, what do you look for?

Juju Chang (17:54)

You know, it's interesting. I have done a lot of 2000s, and I've done a lot of true crime for Nightline as well, which is the show, as you know, that I co anchor. But I've always looked for true crime stories as a means to an end, like to talk about mass incarceration or to talk about criminalized survivorship when domestic violence survivors get over penalized, or talk about consent or talk about different types of crimes or redemption arcs. Right. But I recently signed on to help develop a comedy about true crime, and I was googling up, why do people love true crime, including myself? And I think I know the answer. But then when I Googled it up, it said, actually, women like it because they like to be able to find the sort of COVID narcissist in their lives. So it's called a defensive posture. Psychologically, they're watching to protect themselves because,

Brad Milke (18:53)

like, I see these behaviors in my life, right?

Juju Chang (18:58)

The husband who is accused of trying to pummel and throw his wife off of a Hawaii cliff, the husband who this, the husband who that, or frankly, the wife who was convicted of maybe, fentanyl poisoning her husband with a Moscow mule. I mean, these are things that you kind of are taking mental notes on, but also for women who are true crime enthusiasts, and I count myself among them. You also love the, the stories. To me, the heroism of the investigators. I have interviewed so many investigators, Brad, who've left me with tears in my eyes because their dedication and their desire to do what's right and to find justice and to get some comfort for victims families and to be able to bring these people to life. You know, Sarah Stern's life was snuffed out at 19. And to be able to talk about her art and to be able to talk about the scholarship they endowed in her name, to be able to talk about who she was, she wanted to be, is really a gift. And so for me, the podcast allowed us to delve into all that.

Brad Milke (20:07)

But, yeah, I think it's so valuable that what you described is so many of these stories that we think of them as individual stories, but they do have these sort of universal. I don't know if they're lessons or just like reflections of the culture. And that's so valuable even in this. Like, you're hearing somebody with, like, these psychopathic tendencies that you might not have known about in real life, and yet it's there, lurking the whole time.

Juju Chang (20:28)

Totally.

Brad Milke (20:28)

That tells you something.

Juju Chang (20:29)

Totally. And that is drama, that is pathos, that is, you know, King Lear. That is Shakespearean or Greek epic tragedy. It is storytelling as it has been for millennia. And podcasting is just a modern view of that. And I think true crime is, you know, it is expanding for a reason. I think it allows us to dive into psychology. And sometimes it's a psychopath, and sometimes it's a cold blooded killer who's trying to do something, you know, and thinks he or she can get away with it.

Brad Milke (21:02)

You kind of just mentioned several examples, so I don't want to put you on the spot, but I mean, if you had a Mount Rushmore of sort of true crime stories in your time at abc, what are they like? There's been so many.

Juju Chang (21:14)

I mean, honestly, I recently went to LA and did the story of the Menendez brothers appeals. Right. And that is a story that has been in our media echo chamber for

Brad Milke (21:29)

35 years and like our collective consciousness.

Juju Chang (21:31)

Right, exactly. And I think that the reexamination of that prosecution, the reexamination of what sex crimes against children do, the trauma of that is seen in a different light today than it was 35 years ago. And I think, again, it brings up all these issues. I have gone to Bedford Women's Prison and talked to Pamela Sea repeatedly because, as you know, before the O.J. simpson trial, her trial was the trial of the century. It was at the dawn of Court tv. She was convicted of aiding and abetting a group of young men, one of whom she had an affair with, who killed her husband. And that now, again, 35 years later, that redemption arc, or the attempt at a redemption arc is really fascinating because she has been a model citizen behind bars for 30 plus years. And my name is Pamela Smart. I'm accused of being an accomplice to the murder of my husband Greg. But I am not guilty. You've been through many appeals processes. Your new lawyer is arguing that your constitutional rights were violated. They were. During trial. And that you didn't get a fair trial. I did not. So it, again, it raises a lot of questions in our minds when we tell these stories.

Unidentified Male (possibly Anthony Curry or another male involved in sting operation) (22:50)

Right.

Juju Chang (22:51)

The other one is the Murdoch story. We interviewed the stars of the sort of scripted series based on it. And the level of attention. Talk about knowing the trial details. They knew every iota of that case. But also talk about Shakespearean. That was an epic family that was brought to its knees with this controversy. And you could see the decline of this, the House of Murdoch, as it were. And then finally, I think near mythological. And that is the Black Dahlia case and the Zodiac Killers case. And I interviewed Alex Baber, and he is the true crime sleuth, you know, an amateur detective on some level who set out to crack the zodiac code. What does all this circumstantial evidence say to you?

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Juju Chang (23:45)

the Black Dahlia Avenger. And believe, you know, to his mind, he has proven that the Zodiac Killer was also responsible for the Black Dahlia killing. Hear that? Sure. Without sounding cocky or arrogant, I have

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Juju Chang (24:01)

that this is the right guy. And he has made all sorts of breakthroughs and he has law enforcement interested. And that story was told on Nightline and also on Impact by Nightline, which shameless plug moment was also gives us an opportunity to dive deeper, kind of like this podcast does, to go behind the headlines, to go deeper and more layered into this kind of storytelling.

Brad Milke (24:27)

And featured on Start here, of course.

Nikki Glaser / Shopify Advertiser (24:28)

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Brad Milke (24:29)

Just like such good reporting in this podcast, in particular on Bridge of Lies, Juju, really impressive work and thank you so much for doing this. I think it really helps us learn a little bit more about the host who's been guiding us for these six episodes.

Juju Chang (24:42)

Thank you so much Brad for having me. But honestly, one of my favorite parts of the podcast is being able to read the credits because it's so fun to like say my friends names and my colleagues names and give credit where credit is due.

Brad Milke (24:53)

All right, well with that in mind, I should say Juju Chang is the host of Bridge of Lies. She's the co anchor of Nightline. Congrats on the series. And if you are listening to this right now, you've probably listened to the rest of the series. But make sure to rate and review the show wherever you're listening. Juju and the whole team will thank you for it. You want to listen for the next true crime series from ABC Audio? It's called Blood and Water. It's the story of a mother who's murdered in the suburbs of the Washington, D.C. her case remained unsolved for two decades and the shocking truth about the killer stayed hidden until very recently when new technology allowed investigators to do what had once been impossible. Blood and Water, hosted by Stephanie ramos. It's coming April 28th. I'm Brad Nilke. Thanks for listening.

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