2026 Tony Awards: Final Predictions w/ Richie Grasso and Jeff Malone

Summary

Broadway Breakdown – 2026 Tony Awards: Final Predictions

Host: Matt Koplik
Guests: Richie Grasso, Jeff Malone
Date: June 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

With the Tony Awards just days away, Matt is joined by Broadway podcasters Richie Grasso and Jeff Malone for a no-holds-barred, marathon-style breakdown of every significant category in the upcoming Tonys. Known for their sharp opinions, deep Broadway knowledge, offbeat humor, and a healthy dash of backstage tea, the trio offers listeners not just predictions but also spirited debates about the narratives and politics behind this season’s nominees. They bring receipts, inside stories (especially about the Ragtime drama), and plenty of memorable, unfiltered moments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Broadway’s Tumultuous Tony Season

• The Shape of the Season: The group reflects on how quickly (and sometimes tediously) this awards season passed. Matt notes the impact of limited engagement runs and the batch of shows opening or closing right at the eligibility deadline.
  • Matt: “It’s both gone by in a blur and also has felt endless, so I’m very happy for it to be done.” [01:31]
• Myth-busting Tony Trends: Richie and Matt challenge popular misconceptions about the wave of closings and box office “records”—pointing out many are due to preplanned limited runs and higher ticket prices, not deeper market factors.

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Opening Tea: Ragtime & its "Creative Consultant" Drama

• Clarification: Matt corrects a previous statement about Marsha Norman’s Pulitzer status, showing his commitment to accuracy.
• Ragtime’s Backstage Story: A major segment centers on the behind-the-scenes turbulence of the current Ragtime revival, particularly director Lear deBessonet’s fraught leadership, the involvement of Chris Catelli (credited as “creative consultant”), replacements in the design team, and Bart Sher’s late intervention as an uncredited crisis manager.
  • Matt: “Allegedly, by the time they got to tech, things got worse and they fired...that’s why there are two lighting designers. Bart Sher was brought in as a Hail Mary.” [13:56]
  • Richie: “I keep seeing Lear winning...but I really, really think the directors of Cats, for what they’re doing with that source material, should be winning this.” [10:03]
• Voter Perception: The group ponders whether inside-theater chatter will impact Tony voters’ willingness to award Lear, compared to the broader awards (like Outer Critics Circle or Drama Desk) where awareness of these dramas appears much lower.
• Industry History as Context: Matt reminds listeners that co-directors, show doctors, and producers stepping in is a Broadway tradition.

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Technical Categories: Sound & Lighting

Sound Design of a Play

• Front-Runners: Death of a Salesman and Oedipus are seen as the top contenders.
  • Matt: “Ultimately, I do think it’s down to Death of a Salesman and Oedipus—with Death of a Salesman coming out on top.” [03:53]
• Influence of Recency: Shows still running have a voting advantage due to Tony voters tending to award what’s fresh in memory.

Sound Design of a Musical

• Consensus is that The Lost Boys is the likely winner—impressing with its immersive, ambient sound (but some complain about the overbearing volume).
  • Richie: “I’m the old man about this, but it was so loud!...But I could see Cats winning over Lost Boys for not being overwhelming.” [08:01]
  • Jeff: “I put Cats for this one. I just think, filling that space, they did a great job.” [08:52]

Lighting Design (Play & Musical)

• Death of a Salesman is the easy pick for lighting in a play, for haunting, memory-driven effects.
• In musicals, The Lost Boys is again favored for the technical challenge and artistry of lighting multiple flying actors and complex set pieces, but some side-eye Michael Arden’s double credit as lighting co-designer.

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Directing: The Power Struggle

Director of a Musical

• Deserves to Win: Jellicle Ball (Cats), co-directed by Jaelyn Livingston and Bill Rauch
• But Might Win: Lear deBessonet for Ragtime, due to prior awards momentum, though skepticism is rampant
  • Matt: “My prediction is still Jaelyn and Bill for Jellicle Ball, if only just because everyone I’ve spoken to has said the same thing...‘it should be.’” [22:16]
  • Jeff: “It’s very rare for a director to win without their show winning revival or best musical.” [22:19]
• Catelli’s work on Schmigadoon is considered an outside shot, in part because of his behind-the-scenes work on both Ragtime and Schmigadoon.

Director of a Play

• Consensus Pick: Joe Mantello for Death of a Salesman, praised for reinventing the revival, actor-driven focus, and maintaining his “signature style” of psychologically detailed productions.
  • Richie: “If I leave a revival and feel like I saw a new play for almost three hours, that’s how you do Death of a Salesman.” [34:16]
• Possible Upset: Whitney White for Liberation; if the play racks up more than just the likely Pulitzer/Tony combo, she could benefit.

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Design & Choreography Predictions

Costume Design:

• Play: Likely Queen Jean for Liberation (historical/period detail), but Fallen Angels is the glitzy upset pick.
• Musical: Queen Jean’s “out-there, experimental” work in Jellicle Ball is the favorite; Linda Cho for Schmigadoon is the alternate, lauded for meticulous vintage detail.

Scenic Design:

• Play: Down to Dog Day Afternoon’s shifting, tech-driven bank set versus Death of a Salesman’s stark memory home.
• Musical: The Lost Boys is the predicted winner, for its scale and immersive design; Schmigadoon seen as a possible dark horse.

Choreography:

• Tooth-and-nail fight between Jellicle Ball (for its truly innovative movement and vogue-heavy ensemble work) and Schmigadoon (classic Broadway/Golden Age, pure precision and nostalgia).
  • Matt: “I think that Jellicle Ball is going to walk out on Tony night with, like, five Tonys, minimum...and I think one of those is choreography.” [87:44]
  • Jeff: “I’m sold on the voguing to Jellicle Ball—dip after dip after another dip.” [88:07]

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Performance Categories – Major Talking Points

Leading Actress in a Musical

• Unanimous Choice: Casey Levy, Ragtime
  • “She’s handed an incredible role, but also it’s her time...the dots lined up for that for her.” – Richie [49:32]
  • Narrative: The role of Mother has never won a Tony despite legendary prior performances, giving extra “due” factor.

Featured Actress in a Musical

• Likely: Shoshana Bean, The Lost Boys (“her time”)
• Possible: Ana Gasteyer (Schmigadoon), but only if Schmigadoon sweeps big
• Personal pick: Hannah Cruz for Chess, “completely steals it,” but seen as longshot. [104:18]

Leading Actor in a Musical

• Lock: Joshua Henry, Ragtime (“not a nervous tummy in sight”)
• Close second: Nicholas Christopher for Chess; praised as “belter face-off.”

Featured Actor in a Musical

• Hope & Hype: Leighton Williams (Titanique, the Iceberg), for delivering a showstopping star turn that voters are buzzing about.
• Likely: Ben Levi Ross (Ragtime), for a strong, consistent performance and the “non-controversial” pick.
• Legacy Factor: Andre De Shields is beloved, but unlikely to repeat just seven years after Hadestown.

Leading Actor in a Play

• Showdown: John Lithgow (Giant) vs. Nathan Lane (Death of a Salesman)
• John Lithgow may squeeze through due to not wanting to sweep Salesman, plus it’s a more clear tour-de-force vehicle.
  • Matt: “Once you start racking up a certain number of wins, it becomes harder for people to give you another one, as Audra is now learning.” [124:13]

Leading Actress in a Play

• Favorite: Leslie Manville (Oedipus), the only “locked” win for that production.
• Upset Watch: Susanna Flood (Liberation); if Liberation sweeps, she might ride the wave.

Featured Categories in Plays

• Actress: Laurie Metcalf (Death of a Salesman) is seen as likely for her transformative work.
• Actor: Split between Alden Ehrenreich (Becky Shaw), Reuben Santiago-Hudson (Joe Turner’s Come and Gone), and Christopher Abbott (Salesman). No consensus, a true toss-up.

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Score & Orchestrations: Where Will the Love Land?

Best Original Score

• Closest Race: Schmigadoon (by Cinco Paul) versus Two Strangers Carry a Cake.
• Schmigadoon makes the category by stretching the “new song” rule (a mix of TV material, new lyrics, new arrangements).
  • Richie: “It’s the golden age score that we haven’t had in a very long time for an original golden age S score.” [64:42]
• Wildcard: If voters want to “throw a bone” to Two Strangers, this is a likely place.

Orchestrations

• Jellicle Ball expected to win for rejuvenating the Cats score; Schmigadoon is an alternate.
• Matt: “Jellicoe Ball’s orchestrations have reminded people—hey, she’s always been a bop!” [59:14]

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Book of a Musical

• Personal Preference: Titanique (“bullseye comedy, pure fun”).
• Predicted Winner: Schmigadoon, by virtue of mainstream cleverness; Two Strangers likely runner up.
  • Matt: “If Titanique does win…you’re not gonna hear a peep out of me. I’ll piss myself.” [93:50]

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Revival Categories

Revival of a Musical

• Clear Consensus: Cats: The Jellicle Ball is predicted to triumph, blending classic material with inventive direction and choreography.
• Ragtime, while beloved as a musical, is seen as a more straightforward, less revitalizing production.

Revival of a Play

• Obvious Winner: Death of a Salesman
• Becky Shaw and Oedipus are admired but don’t match Salesman’s blend of vision and gravitas.

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Best Play & Best Musical

Best Play

• Likely Winner: Liberation, hot off a Pulitzer win, following a strong history of new Pulitzer plays taking the Tony.

Best Musical

• Schmigadoon is the favorite, especially after announcing an extension that invigorated voters.
  • Jeff: “As soon as they extended, the game has completely changed. I’m in a world that Schmigadoon is winning.” [140:45]
• Lost Boys: Could win if technical achievement and scale resonate, but its divisive Act 2 is a sticking point.
• Two Strangers is all but faded; originally hoped for a Gentleman’s Guide trajectory, it now seems to be running limp.
• Titanique: A beloved and unexpected nominee, but little chance of major wins beyond a potential book or supporting actor dark horse.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I do want to say thank you to everybody who came to the live show on Monday…I assume I didn’t kill any or piss on anybody.” - Matt [03:12]
• “I always call it the Hal Prince effect…You just be very lucky and count your blessings because you’re working, working, working.” - Richie [26:14]
• “The problem is, is that the roles that tend to require {Casey Levy’s] emotional commitment are roles I don’t always think she’s the right vocal fit for…” - Matt [52:07]
• “Sometimes they will do quantity over quality. I would argue Bob Mackie won his Tony for the Cher show for recreating Cher outfits, because you better believe that man did not dress his ensemble at all.” - Matt [46:12]
• “If you’re a road presenter, how are you voting? Are you voting for the thing that would need the Tony win to help sell it, or the thing where you’re like, this is such an easy win?” - Matt [72:23]
• “I’ve never laughed harder than at the end of Ragtime, so, Casey, Joshua, come get your comedy awards, baby.” – Matt [131:47]
• “Bob Crowley won a set design for designing a bar for Once; sometimes it’s not about me, it’s about best.” - Matt [84:04]
• _“Gay white men can be homophobic all the time”—Matt, after a dig at Lost Boys Act 2 [140:00]

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Performance Highlights & What To Watch For

• Tonys Show Expectations:
  • High anticipation for The Book of Mormon original cast reunion performance.
  • Curiosity about what Lost Boys will choose for its Tony performance, given the spectacle of its staging.
  • Hope for comedic, fourth-wall breaking performances, especially from Titanique.
• Host Pink: The panel notes a surprising lack of promo for this year’s host, but is optimistic she’ll focus on quality.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:50 – Sound design predictions begin
• 10:54 – Ragtime directing scandal deep-dive
• 22:16 – “Director almost always matches revival/musical winner” statistic breakdown
• 25:40 – Lighting design (play/musical)
• 41:30 – Costume design categories
• 48:27 – Leading Actress in a Musical: Levy vs. The Field
• 57:44 – Orchestrations & Score predictions + Schmigadoon eligibility debate
• 76:50 – Set design categories
• 84:29 – Choreography: Jellicle Ball vs. Schmigadoon
• 90:29 – Book of a Musical
• 97:02 – Supporting acting categories
• 119:50 – Best Play, Leading Actor in a Musical
• 123:09 – Leading Roles in a Play (Actor & Actress)
• 133:42 – Revival of a Musical
• 140:17 – Best Musical predictions
• 146:44 – What are they most excited to see during the broadcast?

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a top-tier, insider’s guide to the 2026 Tony Awards. Matt, Richie, and Jeff provide not just predictions but insightful commentary on the forces influencing voters: narratives, show politics, award trends, and yes, who’s pissed whom off backstage. They make a passionate case for a spread-the-love approach to Tony voting, despite history suggesting voters tend to reward what’s fresh, buzzy, or simply too big to ignore.

Closing Diva: Jennifer Holliday (“in honor of Dreamgirls coming to Broadway”), with a quick fantasy about her belting “Edelweiss.” [151:42]

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For More:

• Follow Matt on Instagram @mattkoplik
• Listen to “Half Hour Podcast” with Jeff & Richie
• bwaybreakdown.substack.com for podcast substack and Discord

Enjoy the Tony Awards and stay tuned for post-show reactions!

Transcript

[Matt Koplik]

Max, I just want to speak up.

[Richie]

Why not?

[Matt Koplik]

Think of the prestige.

[Richie]

No. Think of the respect. No, no, no.

[Matt Koplik]

Think of the Tony.

[Jeff]

Tony. Tony.

[Matt Koplik]

Tony.

[Jeff]

Tony.

[Matt Koplik]

Tony. Hello, all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history un legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And this is our final Tony Awards predictions before the goddamn day itself. And joining us today are friends of the pod, bringing it full circle from half hour with Jeff and Richie. Please welcome back Jeff and Richie.

[Richie]

Hi. We're here. We're here.

[Matt Koplik]

We're. You're here.

[Richie]

Still here.

[Matt Koplik]

And we are so used to it.

[Jeff]

Thank you so much for coming back, guys, to.

[Matt Koplik]

To close out this chapter of Tony. Well, it's not fully closed because we still have an award ceremony to get through and talk about. But until then, speculation, spec, speculification, innuendo, outuendo, all. It all comes to a close today with this episode.

[Richie]

Yeah, right. There we go. We're excited. This is a. What, What a season.

[Jeff]

I feel like we just recorded the other episode.

[Richie]

Yeah, I know.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. It's.

[Richie]

It's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's both gone by in a blur and also has felt endless, so I'm very happy for it to be done. And since we last spoke about all of this, you know, all the shows have opened, they've had their receptions, and we saw the nominees and we have our thoughts and it's.

[Richie]

And we were saying as we were going through our decisions, like, so many shows will be closed in a couple weeks, a couple months, like, and it's going to be like a whole new. Not every show, but so many. It's crazy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, not a lot of. Lot of limited runs as well. I mean, that's the thing. I always hate when playbill's like, like, 12 shows are going to close the next three weeks. What's Broadway up to? And I'm like, well, 10 of those are Manhattan theater club.

[Richie]

So, like, scheduled already.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, 1,000%. Just like, when they're like, oh, we broke box office records this season. I'm like, yeah, because the tickets have been $1,000. Yeah. Anyway, any who's all. I do want to say this one quick thing before we get into our dives of the Tonys. We had an episode last week with Robbie Roselle. I was correctly corrected by a listener on the Discord Channel. I wrongfully said, just boldly, that Marsha Norman was the first woman to win the Pulitzer for drama. She wasn't. There have been other women who've won. Mary Chase won the. Won the Pulitzer. Susan Glass Bell also won the Pulitzer. But, yeah, I don't know. I'm usually pretty good about this stuff. I've had a few slip ups in the last couple of weeks. It's been a very difficult time, you guys.

[Jeff]

Okay, listen, everyone.

[Matt Koplik]

We're human, right? We're human. No, the big. The thing is that Marsha Norman, I believe, was the first woman to win the best book of a musical, Tony solo. So I think that was the thing. I messed up.

[Richie]

Yep. I think you're right there. Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So, I mean, it's all. It's all connected because, you know, we're talking about Tony's and. Oh, and then other thing. I just want to say thank you to everybody who came to the live show on Monday. That was a wonderful time. I'm assuming I'm recording this before that, so I don't know how it's gonna go, but I assume it went well. I assume I didn't kill any or piss on anybody.

[Richie]

You're here and you're alive and you made it through that show.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Here we go. Here we go. All right, so, Jeff, Richie, we're gonna start off. We like to do sort of two small categories and one large category. Okay. So we're gonna start off with, you know, the categories that everybody loves. Sound design of a play and musical. And we're gonna pair that with director of a musical.

[Jeff]

Mm.

[Richie]

We like this. Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

In there, early sound design of a play. We have Joe Turner's Come and Gone, Oedipus, the fear of 13 bug and death of a Salesman. Not gonna lie. This one I'm sort of. I have my gut. And then I also have a little bit of like, what I would I vote for. I'm not sure. Ultimately, I do think it's down to Death of a Salesman and Oedipus with, I think Death of a Salesman coming out on top. A, it's still running. B, be. The sound design of Salesman is fantastic in many ways. So that's what I'm predicting. I think I would vote for. You know what I would vote for? I would vote for Salesman as well on this one. But I don't. Oedipus could upset. People seem to think Bug could upset. I don't buy it. What do you. What do you guys think?

[Richie]

What do you have?

[Jeff]

I also have mine down to those two of Oedipus and Death Of a Salesman, but I am going with Oedipus.

[Matt Koplik]

Go for it. Yeah.

[Jeff]

I don't. There's something about that clock ticking and that still sticks with me, but I really. Death of a Salesman could totally just take it, so. Yeah, well.

[Matt Koplik]

And also, you know, the TV's going on at different points, so, like, it is very beautiful. Layered sound design, for sure.

[Richie]

Appreciate what you do. I put the same, too, and I put Death of a Salesman just beating out Oedipus just because I think there was something about the musical and those scene change. The musical moments with the scene changes in that and the ambient sounds that just were so haunting. And I. I just. And I loved that revival overall. So I think. I think that's. It's interesting we both. We all three of us put those two.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, it helps to have seen the season, you know.

[Richie]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I do. Yeah. I think it. I think it is down to these two ultimately. And however anybody picks, I. Well, I think Salesman is going to win. I don't think it's so obvious. So if Oedipus wins, like, no one should be gloating in front of me because I'm here to tell you I'm not super confident.

[Richie]

Yeah, right. Right. And Oedipus is all over this ballot, and I feel like that's great. And it's. You know, it comes down to that conversation of just because it closed doesn't mean it can't win things. But there's all these Tony voters going now to vote on things that are playing now. And so that just becomes why. That's why so many shows open the week before the deadline. It's just that. That's just how this industry has become and I don't know, it's just how it is now.

[Matt Koplik]

I think it's important to remember that the last two Tony seasons we have had supporting performances in plays when that were in closed shows, but those performances were also filmed through pbs, which broadcast during Tony season.

[Richie]

Yes, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And that helped Francis Jew and that helped Carrie Young a lot, which is not to discredit their performances. I'm very happy they won. But like, yeah, you know, Oedipus isn't. Doesn't have a PBS broadcast. I mean, I'm not sure how much the producers on that show are helping the show's case with Tony voters. But, yeah, like, I think Oedipus nominations prove that clearly did something right. How many it could possibly win is really up for. How many of the Tony voters remember it and aren't subject to recency? Bias.

[Richie]

Yep, I hear you.

[Matt Koplik]

Which brings us to sound design of a musical. We have Cats, the Jellicle Ball, we have Ragtime, Kai Harada, double nominated. Here we have the Lost Boys, we have Richard o' Brien's the Rocky Horror show, and we have Schmigadoon. Honestly, I think this one is the Lost Boys in a bit of a cakewalk with maybe Jellicoe Ball. Surprising. I think. Jellicobal. Absolutely. Could. I just think when you see Lost Boys, it's such a vast production, and the sound design for it is so crisp and. And like you said about Salesman Richie, like, it's. It's an ambient design. It's all around you. And I think that's something that sound designers of late have really been awarding. Whether it's MJ or whether it's Hell's Kitchen, they really appreciate the. It's not just, how good are you. Is your. Is your body, Mike? It's also, how are you surrounding me with sound?

[Richie]

And. And I. And I actually had Lost Boys with Cats too, as a neck and neck. The only thing I'll say about Lost Boys is. And this is, like. And this is, I guess, part of the sound design, but I'm bec. Like the old man now that. Get off my lawn kind of a person, I guess, in my life. But it was so loud, it's not even funny. And I know that, like, I know, like, the literal volume of the sound is not what we're talking about, but I can't help but, like, ignore that elephant in the room because it was extremely, extremely loud the whole time. And I just am like, okay, sure, maybe I'm just getting old. I didn't go to a rock concert at msg. I didn't. I was at a Broadway theater. And so I'm just getting, like. That was just so loud that I just thought. Thought maybe I put Cats might win over it just because Cats wasn't that loud. But I could be completely. I don't know. I mean, was it just me, or was it, like, the loudest thing you ever heard?

[Jeff]

I. I put it that it was loud, too.

[Richie]

So, like, is that bad?

[Jeff]

And I go to concerts. Yeah, I. I put Cats for this one.

[Richie]

Yeah.

[Jeff]

I just think, like, filling that space like you're talking about for Lost Boys. I thought that they did a great job with Cats as well.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, listen, it's. It's. It's ultimately down to these two again. And I think. I mean, I think Jellicle Ball, considering it is such a raucous Party. It is very impressive that it's not overwhelmingly loud. I could see it happening. I think with Lost Boys, it's not just the volume, but it's all the effects that it does, which Cats doesn't really have the benefit of. Like, Jellicoe Ball is very much music forward, so they don't get the echoing of Ali's voice through different speakers of the palace and things like that.

[Jeff]

I would have loved so much more of that.

[Matt Koplik]

I would. I would love. Would be. It would be great. But no, that's. What.

[Richie]

That's.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I'm gonna stick with my Lost Boys. I'm gonna stick with my loss.

[Richie]

Yeah, I can see it's still going that way. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Richie]

There you.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And now I said director of a musical.

[Jeff]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Richie]

Yeah. This is really tough because I have thoughts, but you go first. Or should.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm not going first. I'm gonna go.

[Richie]

All right, here's my thoughts. My thoughts are this 1000% should be going to Jalon Livingston and Bill Rauch for Cats, the Jellicle Ball. But I really think, because I just keep seeing Lira debezenet winning for this in a lot of other categories, that that's the way the voters are gonna go. And I don't agree with it at all, because I really, really think the directors of Cats, for what they're doing with that source material, should be winning this. But I wouldn't be a bit surprised if I just see that Lear wins, because Lear's been nominated, and Lear's now the art. I don't think there's anything really going on in the direction of Ragtime that I would even put her on as a nominee for, let alone a potential win. But I just think that's where we're leaning with these voters right now, because I keep seeing her winning in these smaller awards categories. So I don't know. I. But I really think it should go to Cats.

[Matt Koplik]

Jeff.

[Jeff]

Oh, I'm just 1,000% saying Katz, Jaylon Livingston, and Bill Rauch, because, yeah, I think that was my favorite direction that was happening this season.

[Matt Koplik]

May I set the stage for a second, gentlemen?

[Richie]

Mm.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you. So it's no. It's no secret that I was whelmed by this production of Ragtime and that I have consistently been underwhelmed by Lear's work as a director since into the Woods. Pretty much everything I've seen her do, I just have not agreed.

[Richie]

I agree with you.

[Matt Koplik]

Now, granted, she doesn't need my praise because she has gotten accolades in the Past. And people have enjoyed her work. Fine. Where things get a little muddier for me with Ragtime is not just the work on stage, but also the drama behind it all.

[Richie]

Sure, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Which I have sort of. I had alluded to on this podcast in the past. And I've had listeners kind of yell at me. Not like, don't come for her. More like, no, say it. Like, we don't know what you're talking about. And I've been keeping my mouth shut, mostly because I don't want any allegations that I'm trying to smear her or have a smear campaign against her. In fact, I did spill the tea on an earlier episode that I then cut most of it out because I'm like. But now we are. This is coming out the day before voting closes.

[Richie]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

And I also learned that voters. That there are voters, I don't know who've been listening to this podcast. I would assume that they voted by this point, but if they haven't, cover your ears or whatever, I will say. May I share the story?

[Richie]

Sure. We're all here.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, first of all, I know you guys know the majority of it, but I don't know if you.

[Richie]

Yeah, I think we know a lot, just from the grapevine and whatever.

[Matt Koplik]

But, yeah, so I. I'm going to say allegedly in front of a lot of words, because while. So the way this was happened is that this story about Ragtime's direction was broken to me by a Tony Nominator back in, like, November. And I then went to multiple contacts I had at Ragtime. People who are in that building every day have been since the beginning of rehearsals through tech, like, saw it all. So this is directly. These are directly firsthand accounts. Multiple. But none of them are going to go on record. So I have to say, allegedly, everybody looks in that program, they see the Chris Catelli creative consultant. I've had listeners be like, I don't know what that means. I'm like, okay, in layman's terms, in the industry terms, people see creative consultant, and they're like, oh, show doctor person who came in and, like, kind of took over. That's not exactly what happened here. But it is true that Chris Catelli, allegedly, at the beginning of rehearsals, allegedly was there to help Lear out. By the time they got to the theater with tech, allegedly, things got worse and they fired. You'll notice, by the way, that there are two lighting designers credited for Ragtime. One of them was fired. And that's why there's a second one, because they were Brought in during tech because allegedly, Lear was very unhappy with the lights for the all black set. Because allegedly, she was like, why is there no color? And everyone was like, allegedly, it's an all black set, girl. You need what? This is what you asked for.

[Richie]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And so allegedly in tech is they brought in Bart Sher as sort of a Hail Mary.

[Richie]

Yes. He's on the playbill, too.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, now he's on the playbill.

[Richie]

He wasn't on the playbill on the inside cover. It's. His name was in there. I could have.

[Jeff]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Because he wasn't in there in 2025. 2020. They might have had him in 2020.

[Richie]

Maybe. I could be wrong. I could be wrong.

[Jeff]

Allegedly.

[Matt Koplik]

Allegedly. But only because by that point in tech, Bart was brought in to basically be the liaison for the company.

[Richie]

Mm.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And tweak certain things. And so Bart allegedly was the one who was giving notes during tech, during previews, post opening. So when people talk about, like, well, you know, Lear's direction isn't just about her staging. It's about how she sort of maps the company. I'm sitting here going, well, people are talking like, not only is it, like, if you're underwhelmed by the stage pictures, fine, blame her or blame Catelli. But if you're appraising the performances, you can't thank her because allegedly, someone else was there to helm all of that.

[Richie]

And there's a ton of great stuff happening in Ragtime with performances and obviously the score and the. What that story is and all of that. Right. I just don't see. I don't understand all of the wins that she's getting in these smaller awards categories.

[Matt Koplik]

So this is where I'm connecting the dots here, because I talked about this two weeks ago. I was at the drama desks, where she won again.

[Richie]

Yes. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

The awards for everybody kind of freaked out was because she and Ragtime won at drama leagues.

[Richie]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And that was the only time where Jellicoe Ball was really up against Ragtime. Every other. The Outer Critics Circle Drama desk, Jellicobal has not been eligible. And having seen all the other revivals this season, nothing has been really special enough to beat Ragtime in terms of just like Ragtime is a musical that people have a lot of love for. This revival does get some stuff. Right. And so ultimately, you know, having just seen Spelling Be Nice as it is, it's not quite special enough to beat Ragtime. Baker's wife was not special enough. Chess was not special enough. And so Ragtime has sort of been winning everywhere, and Lear's been winning everywhere just because the Jellicoe Ball as competition is not there against her. Yep. And at the Drama desks, she. She won. And the reception in the room was very tepid, and everyone in my group was like, that was a very frigid response from the audience, was it not? And I ran into a voter who had said, like. Like the Outer Critics Circle Drama desk voters, like, they don't know the shit that went down at Ragtime. Because the whole point of the outer Critics Circle awards is like, those are critics who are not necessarily on the New York theater scene. Drama desk has some people in the theater scene, but mostly nominators, not the voters. And so there's a lot of talking. And so with the Tonys, there is a lot more of actors who've worked with Lear, designers who've worked with Lear, directors who watch Lear. And I just keep talking to people and getting. And maybe it's because I've been very open that I don't. That I'm whelmed by her, But I do feel like a lot of these folks come to find me, and they go, girl, can I talk to you?

[Richie]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so that's why I'm sitting here going, I'm not buying that she's winning, because everyone I speak to has says what you said, Richie, which is like, she might win, but, like, God damn it, it should be Jellicoe Ball. I'm like, if enough fucking people say that and vote that way, right, Then why wouldn't they win?

[Richie]

Right. I just have never seen something reimagined like Jellicoe Ball. And I mean, yes, of course, some things have been completely reimagined, but I just think that that is just really smart. And I think. I don't know what Lear's doing with Ragtime other than just staging it on a mostly empty stage like a concert.

[Matt Koplik]

We're giving it AI sets for sure.

[Richie]

Right? So, like, that's where I'm sitting. And of course, listen, you also have, you know, Michael Arden in this category, too. But also, I don't think there's anything to me going on there. That's what he just won for the second time. I don't think we are going that way with this.

[Matt Koplik]

That's why, in my opinion, Lear has been winning so much outside of the Tonys, because, like, for all these other directors in these ca. In this category, other than Jellicoe Ball, there are these major caveats. Like, Michael has done amazing work on Lost Boys. I maintain that Second act as kind of a mess as you said. He also did just Wayne. Are we really going to give him his third, third Tony in four years? Like people are mid on. Probably not. I think if anyone has a chance of beating Lear and Jaylen and Bill, it would be Chris Catelli for Schmigadoon. And we'll get to that in a second.

[Richie]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

Partly for the Schminga Doon is, you know, got high stock. Also a lot of people talk about how Catelli is the unsung hero on Ragtime working part two. Also I also gotta say this, and this is not super Shade. It's an open sequel secret that like Bart's not like the most open conversationalist with his actors on his shows. Like he's got a short temper. He's known for it. So when people and I have been like talking to me about the Bart share in Ragtime of it all, they're like for Bart to be the Hail Mary for the company tells you kind of how bad tech was.

[Richie]

Right. And there's also this like umbrella of like Lear is the artistic director of that theater company now. So now she's leading for an X amount of time. Does that mean she's directing every show? No, but she could be directing some of the big ones. So she could be around in the Tony circuit for a while. Just because of the position she holds.

[Matt Koplik]

I think, I think it's in her contract that she directs one show a season, whether it's main stage or off Broadway, I don't know. And listen, like, if she does a show that I love in the future, like I'm going to call it like I see and be like, that was fantastic.

[Richie]

Right? Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

But if we recall a year ago I was on a similar train with Audra's Gypsy and I got, I got fucking dragged through the dirt about it and I. When I just was openly saying I've yet to speak to a person on Broadway who likes this production and they goose egged that night.

[Jeff]

So like I know, yeah, like look what happened.

[Richie]

So it's very interesting and I would. And that's why, you know, I mean, and I just think that's where it's. That's what my vote would be going towards.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry, that was a very long thing. But I asked you if I could set a stage.

[Richie]

I knew we were going to talk about her at some point and I think that was the times.

[Matt Koplik]

That was the time I. And I'm glad you guys knew about Bart as well. That way the listeners won't Think that I'm just like, no, I've heard that.

[Richie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Richie]

Well.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's the other thing about the allegedly of it. All. Right. It's like, guys, people know I'm not the one making this up. It's around. And if people go like, well, who leaked? I'm like, there. There were 90 people in that room with you on that day. 100 people the next day. Like, any one of them could have said it.

[Richie]

Sure. And this industry is sometimes, I think, smaller than we think. I think a lot of people talk and know each other more than we think. And so even though it's the big Broadway.

[Matt Koplik]

And last thing I will say, and then we'll move on. I alluded to this in the episode two weeks ago, but I had cut the whole story out, so people weren't quite sure what I was talking about. Sometimes people need help. It's okay. It's a community effort. It's never about having authority and being a total visionary. Best idea always wins. You're the tastemaker as the director. And Bob Fosse won a Tony for a pajama game. And we all know Jerome Robbins choreographed half of that show. But to help him out, that also is Bob Fosse's first show. He went on like, he learned very quickly. And by his second show, he was doing the thing. But still, it's not like.

[Richie]

Well, there's also the. I always call it the Hal Prince effect of the industry, too. Cause hal Prince directed 75,000 million shows. And it was like. And he just worked and worked and directed, and it was hit. Mostly hit, hit, hit, hit. And so I think there's this like, oh, my gosh, if that guy could do it, anybody can be this huge, successful director. And it's like, no, like, we learn. We co. Look at. We just said Katz is co directed. That's probably awesome for them that they were able to bring two ideas together. Co directing.

[Matt Koplik]

And Hal Prince and Michael Bennett had to co direct. Follies was such a big task. And, like, Prince famously, like, struck out a couple times as director before he really started to get his groove. And then even then, he. He had a Valley like, in between Evita and Phantom. So, like, everyone has it. I'm not. It's not about a. A target on anyone's back so much as, like, we're talking about this category. So, yes, my prediction is still Jaelyn and Bill for Jellicoe Ball, if only just because everyone I've spoken to has said the same thing. You two have said, which is like, it should be. That's what I would vote for. And I'm like, then why wouldn't it be?

[Richie]

Why wouldn't it be?

[Matt Koplik]

But, yes.

[Jeff]

I've always had this, like, theory too, that I say to Richie a lot is, like, it's very rare for a director to not win in either revival or best musical that the show has not also won. Yeah. So I think it was only, like, one time. We looked. It was like, come from away, I think. Was it the.

[Matt Koplik]

The only time it's happened with a revival is John Doyle with Sweeney Todd.

[Richie]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

E1 and Sweeney Todd to not win. It's happened a couple of times, but over the course of, like, 50 years, we're talking like six or seven times. So that's like once every 10 years.

[Jeff]

Yeah. Like, one of the directors of either the best musical or the revival will take home the award. And that's the other thing. When we get to what we think is winning revival. So.

[Richie]

So we'll talk about that in a minute. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, we'll talk about in a second. So, yes, my. My. My prediction is still Jaylen and Bill. I think Lear is probably second. But also, I'm sitting here going like, watch Katelli. Just, like, out of nowhere.

[Richie]

I know, right?

[Matt Koplik]

And I was like, but love it.

[Jeff]

I mean, why not chaos?

[Matt Koplik]

We love chaos. Okay, gentlemen.

[Richie]

All right, let's go. Lighting design of a play. Lighting design and musical. And then director of a play.

[Matt Koplik]

Great.

[Richie]

Do you wanna do that?

[Jeff]

What do we got?

[Matt Koplik]

What are we doing?

[Richie]

All right, so we're gonna do. Let's first.

[Matt Koplik]

All right, our nominees are Dog Day Afternoon, Oedipus, Joe Turner's Come and Gone, Boog, the fear of 13, and death of a Salesman. Hey, Heather Gilbert, nominated twice here for Bug in fear of 13. Richie, what you got?

[Richie]

I did put Death of a Salesman for this because I just thought it was a cool set to light, and it was just a. I'm just. That production is really sticking with me, and I just really loved the way it was with the car and just the kitchen in the corner and just the way we were just showing this ghostly haunted lighting. That's what I would go for. For me.

[Matt Koplik]

Do you think anything could upset that, or do you think it's pretty locked in?

[Richie]

I don't. I mean, I don't. Fear of 13. Maybe I'm getting a lot of Tony buzz, unfortunately, that show. But I don't know, for me, it's seeing pretty strong at Death of a Salesman. That's what I'm saying, were you, were

[Matt Koplik]

you a fan of the fear of 13?

[Richie]

At times I thought it was kind of cool.

[Matt Koplik]

You just said unfortunately. So I was like, is Richie a fan?

[Richie]

I mean, I didn't hate that show. I thought there was some cool moments. I just didn't leave there thinking it was this huge hit. And then the Tony voters clearly didn't think so either. So I was like, okay, yeah, it was an interesting story. I didn't hate it, but I didn't.

[Matt Koplik]

I think the lighting design nomination here is very earned. I think it's a well designed show for sure.

[Richie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. What do you.

[Jeff]

Yeah, I'm going with Death of a Salesman as well for best lighting design here. And I don't know if I really have an upset for that.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't either. I, it's, I think it's Salesman easily. Again, similar to sound design. I think this, the sound and lighting design of this revival really help Joe Mantello's vision of just being such a memory piece. Yeah, it's just pretty, it's pretty stunning. But I will also say this is a solid category. Yeah. Anyway, okay. Lighting design of a musical. We have three.

[Richie]

What?

[Matt Koplik]

We have six nominees in both of these categories. That's crazy.

[Richie]

Isn't that crazy? I know, I know. And great. So we, I mean, what do we have?

[Jeff]

Especially when in some of the bigger categories they did not.

[Richie]

I know.

[Jeff]

So, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You got Chess, the Lost Boys, Richard o' Brien's the Rocky Horror Show, Schmigadoon, Ragtime, Angelica Ball. I love that Adam Monterey is nominated for both Ragtime Angelicle Ball, and Donald Holder is nominated for Schmigadoon and Ragtime. It's like,

[Richie]

like they were just crossing the street every day going to different theaters.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like, where are you off to? I'm off at here. Well, why don't we meet at Ragtime for a drink and do some lighting together? Yeah, no, it's.

[Richie]

And I always look at things like that. I'm like, I, I, there's, there's so many incredible lighting designers who would like, kill to be in one of those slots. And when you see them in multiple, it's like you are very lucky. You know who's. Linda Cho is multiple costume nominee. Like, when you see multiple designers and multiple. I'm like, you just be very lucky and count your blessings because you're working, working, working. And there's thousands designers who would love to be in those shoes. So they're lucky.

[Matt Koplik]

Usually the multiple lighting design nominations goes to Natasha Katz.

[Richie]

She's always on there. I know. I actually. Shocked.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's like the one year she's not on here.

[Richie]

She's actually just sitting home on the Tony Awards this year.

[Matt Koplik]

I guess I was like, did she not have a show? Did she decide to go to Barcelona for the year?

[Richie]

Right. She just took a year off, I guess, probably. So. Lightning design and musical. I'm really going strong on the Lost Boys for this. I was blown. I'm not. We'll talk a little later, maybe more about Lost Boys. I'm not blown away by that show. In general. I've liked it, but I wasn't obsessed. But that lighting is really, really good. And I know that to light flying actors and to not see wires and to light scenery flying in from every corner of that, it was just really, really impressive. Now, I will say I don't. I didn't know Michael Arden had lighting design experience. I know that I always look at it like, when you're a design director, you're already getting the directing credit. Did you need the lighting design credit? I'd love to know the story there, because I'm just. I was saying this on our podcast, like, that's cool like that. If you actually, like, know a lot about lighting design and actually sat there and designed the line, line designer, great. But I also know some directors that, like, help out with the lighting and claim to be a lighting designer. I hope that wasn't the case here because now if that wins. Look, he's getting another Tony Award. But I know Gent Driver is an amazing lighting designer and I hope that this is not like a stepping on toes thing because in general, it's great lighting design. And I, I was really blown away by that.

[Matt Koplik]

From what I understand. It's not, it's not that I, I. Because I understand that it was a more collaborative effort, but I hear you for sure. I think this is sort of like how, like, Kip Williams designs the. The productions of, like, Dorian Gray and things like that.

[Richie]

Right, right.

[Matt Koplik]

But, yeah, I feel you. I feel you, Jeff.

[Jeff]

Yeah, I'm going with Lost Boys on this as well. And I had said on our podcast as well, it just feels like he may have said, I'm not going to win direction this year, so I'm going to put myself in another category.

[Richie]

It just feels like, I hate to say that. I just feels like that. I don't know. It's a little, you know, like.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, let me ask you, why Shady?

[Richie]

Why did he not put his name as lighting designer for Queen of Versailles or maybe Happy. Where did this come from? I'd love to just know the.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, maybe he has always wanted to be in lighting design and maybe the way his career went, it wasn't something he was allowed to pursue both of. But then with the two Tonys and then also working on Lost Boys, he was like, you know what? Now I'm going to use my cachet and demand to be a part of the lighting design. Now I want to get involved and maybe the next show we're going to see, it's going to be directed and lit.

[Richie]

Right. I mean, I also know sometimes, a long time ago in history used to be like, sometimes the set and the lighting designer, the set and the costume designer is the same person. And I have seen that plenty. I very rarely feel like I've seen the director also at a show of this scale. I would think that you didn't. You wouldn't have had. Also need to co lighting design it. But I don't know the story.

[Matt Koplik]

So I'm just ready for like the next Casey Nicholaw show where he's also the sound designer. So he's nominated for choreography and sound design. Like.

[Jeff]

And starring in it.

[Richie]

Yeah, yeah. And starring. Right. He hasn't been on stage in a while, so. Right, I know. But anyway, what do you got?

[Matt Koplik]

Same bitch.

[Jeff]

Lost Boys.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, from. From the. From the opening. Oh, yeah, from the opening scene. I. It's. It sounds so perfunctory and basic to say this, but, like, when that security guard comes in with a flashlight.

[Richie]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Immediately you're going, oh, this is a mood. And this is because I can't recall the last time I saw a flashlight on stage where it was such a strobe effect like that.

[Richie]

It was high powered. I know. I'm like, this is cool. It's like out of a movie. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's out of. Straight out of a noir film. It was. It was stunning. And it. And it's like that all the time. For a show that's so maximalist. I thought it was very impressive how focused, at least on a design level, the show always was. Because, I mean, I have now seen the show a few times, not out of undying devotion, but just because of logistics. I was brought once in previews and it was too early for me to review it, so I was like, I gotta go back and see the final product. So I did that and reviewed it. Do that. And then I got invited back again by someone on the team and I was like, it's gonna be My third time, like, yes, but you haven't seen

[Jeff]

it from, you know, house seats.

[Matt Koplik]

And I went, okay, okay, daddy, if you in sales. But my first time seeing it, I remember going like, jesus Christ, this is a lot of musical. And then by my third time seeing it, I still feel that way, but I was like, okay, you know what? Like, I will say, design wise, staging wise, they. At that very level, they are very focused on what they're doing. And so that is. I think the show would be unbearable if the design were not so disciplined. You know what I mean?

[Richie]

And it's almost like the opposite problem. If we're talking about Lost Boys for another second. There's a part of me that's usually. To me, the design was so strong for a show that didn't have that out of town or an off Broadway run. And yet I wish they had put more work into the score and the book, because that was what I found more weaker than the design, and it's usually the opposite. And I'm sitting here like, wow, you would have thought this was on the road for six months. And they. And they just. Cause it's, like, so well designed.

[Matt Koplik]

And.

[Richie]

And then I look at that Act 2 script and score and plot, and I'm like, I don't know what's happening here in Act 2. I just. Just. I don't know. I just lost. I was a Lost boy in Act 2 because you.

[Matt Koplik]

You.

[Richie]

I had to throw in the dad joke there.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. It's. Yeah, we'll talk about Act 2 with Lost Boys in a bit.

[Richie]

Yeah, okay. All right.

[Matt Koplik]

But we have a week now. You guys got to pick me a big category. Daddies.

[Richie]

Oh, we were gonna do director of a play. Right. Next. Okay, that's direction of a play. Go.

[Jeff]

You're first, right?

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I'm first this time. Okay, so we have Nick Heitner for Giant, Robert Ick for Oedipus, Kenny Leon for the Balusters, Joe Mantello for Death of a Salesman, and Whitney White for Liberation. Before I make my prediction, can I just say in this moment, I fucking love this category. I think it's Baller. I have no notes.

[Richie]

Okay, great.

[Matt Koplik]

Perfect. I mean, the only. The only two people missing for me are Tripp Coleman for Becky Shaw and Ann Kaufman for Marjorie Prime. But it's five. It's five nominees. It's. That's what it's supposed to be. So I. Yeah, I don't know what. What people want from me.

[Richie]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

I. I love this category. I think these five Are all amazing.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I do ultimately think it's Joe Mantella for Salesman with Whitney White, a potential

[Richie]

upset literally said the same thing.

[Matt Koplik]

Mostly because I think this is the strongest chance Liberation has to win a second Tony. Queen Jean could win in costumes. We'll get to that. But I think that Whitney probably has a better shot than Queen Jean does for Liberation. Part of it is that Liberation has closed. Part of it is that Whitney White's direction is much similar to, like, Nick Heitner's for Giant or Kenny Leon's for the Balusters, where it's much more about the ensemble and keeping the tone and the pacing and less about the bold vision of it. She's not imposing on Bess Wall's text, and Mantello is not imposing on Salesman, but this is a salesman unlike any other. Oh, yeah. Without. Without feeling disrespectful to the text, which is really, really hard to do.

[Richie]

Of course. Of course. I mean, I had the exact same thing. And I just think I left Death of a Salesman, and I said to Jeff, we were literally standing on the street. I said, I turned around. I pointed that marquee. I said, that is how you do Death of a Salesman. And we've seen so many different versions. And I've read the play a thousand million times in this film adaptations, and I get it, but that felt like a new play. And I mean, if I leave a show of a revival and I feel like I saw a new play for the. For almost three hours, I'm like. And Joe Mantel has directed a lot. I've not liked everything he's always done. That was amazing.

[Jeff]

He also kept his, like, signature style, which, like, sometimes directors don't. And I find anytime he directs something, he really keeps his style.

[Matt Koplik]

What do you consider his style, Laurie Metcalfe?

[Jeff]

Definitely. Basically very dark.

[Richie]

No, you know, he finds. I always find he finds heavy moments, and they don't feel heavy. And we then move and the show is moving. And then we get to Glass Menagerie with Sally Field. Right. Am I right that he directed that?

[Matt Koplik]

He didn't direct that. He was in it.

[Richie]

Oh, he was in it. Okay. I'm thinking of that. But that's another heavy play at times. But I felt. I just feel like he knows how to move a plot and a piece, but then find the moments. And I know Nathan and Laurie were finding those moments as actors, too, but I just think that's. It's gotta be the win for him.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I think with Mantello and also Jeff you never fully got to tell me the signature style. I wanna hear more about that. Sometimes when I see a production that he's directed. Cause I think for me his signature style is more just like he's notoriously wonderful with actors. Like, he gets performances out of his shows and there are some plays he's done where I'm like, I don't think the text is that strong. And so there are moments where it's supposed to be powerful and the acting is great, but like, I don't buy it. One for me was Hillary and Clinton and then another one was. It's in the news right now. Other Desert Cities, a play that I saw on Broadway right after it transferred. And the buzz off from off Broadway was so amazing that when I saw it on Broadway I was like, acting's incredible. That's the play.

[Richie]

Yeah, okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, it's fine, it's fine. But I remember like Rachel Griffiths had this really big moment, like a very like Leslie Manville and Oedipus moment. And I was just like, that seems like a lot of energy for this task right now. And I think it's just because the text for me did not justify that kind of drama. But Jeff, how would you describe a Joe Mantello production?

[Jeff]

It seems like a lot of people are very excited about that Other Desert

[Matt Koplik]

City because of the cast, Jeff.

[Richie]

Jesus.

[Jeff]

No, but they're like, this is my favorite play.

[Matt Koplik]

Who's saying that?

[Richie]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Jeff]

That's what they're posting on their Instagram.

[Matt Koplik]

Some 19 year old from Wisconsin. Yeah, well, who got to do it for actors class. Like, who's saying that?

[Jeff]

Yeah, but I will say, going back to Joe Mantello, like, what you. I find his style, like you're saying, to be very actor focused, pulls it in, but then it also has like a maybe like a dark eeriness to it that really brings you in and know that like you're really at a play. And Yeah, I mean, I find that with his work.

[Matt Koplik]

I think it's also interesting to note he has not won a Tony in 22 years. And so it's. So even though this would be his third, it's not like it's. Oh, well, he just won. No, he's been around forever and he won for Take Me out and Assassins, but hasn't won since Assassins. And this is.

[Richie]

So he didn't win for Wicked.

[Matt Koplik]

He wasn't nominated for Wicked.

[Richie]

Oh, he wasn't even nominated for Wicked.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't, I don't believe so.

[Richie]

Well, and that's interesting because that show's probably making more money for him than anything combined. And that's his biggest show. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

But, yeah, he knows it. He knows it. And he's not exactly. I don't think he's looking back on his lack of Tony nomination for Wicked and going should have been me. I think he's sort of like, I'm grateful that I own my home.

[Richie]

Yeah, right. Or multiple homes at this point.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, absolutely. No, he. He won for Assassins, and rightfully so.

[Richie]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jeff]

Like, he.

[Matt Koplik]

There are Drum and Tello shows that you. That have been very directory, and I don't think we've really seen that in a long time. Like, Assassins was very directory. Take me out. Love, Valor, Compassion, and this salesman is, like, very directory in a way that doesn't feel empty. It, like, feels connected to everything. So that's really fun to see.

[Richie]

Yeah, I agree.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, great. So that's direction of a play.

[Richie]

Where are we going next?

[Matt Koplik]

Wait, I. You guys gave your predictions, right? You said. You both said Mantell. Joe.

[Richie]

Joe. Yeah.

[Jeff]

Yeah. I don't even think there's anyone else that's beating him.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, so Richie and wait, did you both pick those three categories or did.

[Richie]

I did. I kind of did. So Jeff did. No.

[Matt Koplik]

So, Jeff, you go now.

[Richie]

Go now.

[Matt Koplik]

Too small and big.

[Jeff]

Sure. Let's go down the list here of the two costumes. Costume of a musical, costume of a play, and then big one.

[Richie]

Do it. Do it.

[Jeff]

Big. Big. Let's go. Leading actress in a musical.

[Richie]

We're going there already. Oh, my God.

[Jeff]

You said big.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, my God. Jeff. Wow. Ready for this?

[Richie]

That is really big. Okay, so. Well, last year was not as big as last year.

[Matt Koplik]

Last year, big.

[Richie]

Last year was the Audra Nicole. Audra Nicole was all we talked about for months. Right. So it's a little different this year.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's definitely a different race this year, for sure.

[Richie]

All right. Costumes, costumes. So we should do costumes of a play first. All right.

[Jeff]

Okay, let's do it.

[Matt Koplik]

We have Dog Day Afternoon, Liberation, Fallen Angels, the Ballisters, and Joe Turner's come and gone. A lot of legends here. Paul Tazewell, Emilio Sosa, Queen Jean. Jeff, who do you have winning?

[Jeff]

This was tough because I'm going back and forth between, like, the musical and play, and I just. My gut is telling me Queen Jean for Liberation is winning this one with, like, maybe Jeff for Fallen Angels as my second runner up.

[Matt Koplik]

Jeff Mashi. Richie.

[Richie]

I would. I'm going Queen G and Liberation. There was a lot of costumes in that. That were very period. I mean, they're all period shows in a way, for the most part, besides Ballisters. But I feel like it could be a Fallen Angels, too. There wasn't a ton of, you know, costumes.

[Jeff]

They had beautiful gowns.

[Richie]

Beautiful gowns. They were beautiful gowns.

[Jeff]

They had beautiful gowns.

[Richie]

And it's not about the number.

[Matt Koplik]

Underestimate beautiful gowns. Rishi.

[Richie]

I know. Yes. I loved what the women were wearing. Oh, everyone was wearing in Fallen Angels. But it's Queen Jean with a. It's Liberation with a backup of Fallen Angels for me, too.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I'm gonna reverse that with mine and say Fallen Angels with Queen Jean as a. As a backup. I think that this is the only thing that Fallen Angels will win if it wins anything. Like, it may be set maybe, but I ultimately think it's. It's gonna be costumes. And I do think people really like this production. I think that Kelly and Rose, God bless them, are just. I don't think they're winning. I don't think they're winning revival. And this is sort of a thing where people can go, you know what? Good for you. Here, Here you are. Roundabout. Here you are. Here you go. But because it's also. It's a little bit of my cynicism, I guess I'm gonna say that's predicting Fallen Angels as well. It's the. It's the Linda Cho winning for Great Gatsby for me, of where I go. Right. Period glittery gowns. I would. I would also vote for Queen Jean and Liberation. I think her design on that show is spectacular and. And lived in. When we had Juan Ramirez on for pre nomination predictions, we both were talking about how, like, the costumes in Liberation feel like clothes, not costumes, and that's really hard to do. And the same thing with Ballisters as well. And. And it's. I'm. The nominations are huge already, but, like, I don't know. It's. You want to award that too, So I do. My cynicism is saying Fallen Angels with Liberation as a second option, but I would vote for Liberation.

[Richie]

All right. There we go. Love it.

[Matt Koplik]

Costume design of the musical twice nominated Linda Cho, Ragtime and Schmigadoon, Queen Jean for Jellicle Ball, Ryan park for the Lost Boys, and David Reynoso for Richard o' Brien's the Rocky Horror Show.

[Jeff]

So I feel like this is where my selection for Queen Jean for play happened, because I just feel like Linda chose schmegadoon costumes. There's so much detail happening in Those pieces that, like, down to the shoe that they're wearing, and it's like. And then, like, Queen Jean's cats are amazing. And I'm like. I go back and forth between the two of them, but I just feel like I could see voters saying, like, oh, we're gonna award Queen Jean for Liberation, and then we're gonna give it to Linda Cho for Schmigadoon Possible.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, that's just my feeling.

[Richie]

I'm a little bit of the opposite, because I think I love Linda Cho as a designer. I've always loved everything she's doing, and I think Ragtime and Schmigadoon, she's doing such great stuff. But I think what Cats is doing and what Queen Jean's costumes is. Is just something different and out of the box and experimental, but also lavish and gorgeous. And then there's people in simple looks and then over the top look and color schemes and color palettes. And I just think that that's. If I had to choose, it's that over anything else. And I think that's hard for me to say because I love Schminga doon, and I love what he's saying. The sock color of the dancers and the tap shoes. No, every little thing is so designed. And schmigantun and Ragtime for that matter, too. I know we're not talking about Rocky Horror and Lost Boys, which are also different.

[Matt Koplik]

They're at the table, but they're not there.

[Richie]

Yeah, I don't think that's really going there. They got nominated, so, I mean, I just. If I had to, My gut's telling me Queen Jean for cats. I just think that's where it's going for me.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, it was today that I learned that Richie has a thing for feet, so thank you for that, Richie.

[Richie]

No, I'm just saying, like, the shoes, the socks. We were sitting really close to Shingadun, and then the top number, I was like, wow, the color. The different colors of the socks and the shoes are so cool. I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

I just noticed that there's a lot of dramaturgy in the design of Schminga doon, and I think that's important to know.

[Richie]

Yeah, totally.

[Matt Koplik]

It's interesting, Jeff, because you and I have the same thought, but inverse of each other. Because part of the reason why I'm not convinced that Queen Jean's winning for Liberation is I'm kind of convinced that she's winning for Jellicoe Ball. And listen, could win both. It could entirely imagine.

[Richie]

Why not be amazing? I mean, that would be amazing.

[Matt Koplik]

We would love to see. Every time. I feel like the Tony Awards could really vote in a fun way. They almost never do.

[Richie]

I know.

[Matt Koplik]

And so that's where I'm like, God, who has the balls to vote for her twice and have her give two amazing speeches? Wouldn't that just be cunt? But I don't. I don't have faith in them.

[Richie]

I know. It would be very cool, though. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But so. And I think if anyone is upsetting Queen Jean for Jellicoe Ball, I think it is Linda Cho for Schmingadoon, which I do think the costumes are quite fantastic. The designer, Schmigadoo. And I have almost no notes on. Oh, I have notes for that script and a score, but I don't have notes on the design. Yeah, I think. And also, like, you know, don't, don't you underestimate Linda Cho at your own peril. But then again, I also said the same thing about Jessica Hecht getting about a potential nomination for Dog Day Afternoon. Because every time we're like, who's going to nominate Jessica Hecht for that? And then she does, you know, like summer 1976. But this one, I'm, I'm getting a bit. Whereas director of musical was giving me. And we'll talk about this with Rival as well, like Sunset Gypsy PTSD costume design. For this, I'm getting a little bit of 6 Paradise Square PTSD, where Paradise Square was the period opulent costumes and 6 was more like the. A spin on the thing you thought you knew. And it's not a lot of costume, but it's detailed and it's weird. And then Six ends it up winning costumes.

[Richie]

I know. We talk about that all the time. You know what, the other show that

[Jeff]

he was not upset about paradise, it

[Richie]

wasn't part of Square because I'm such a golden age boy that I just was blown away by the costumes of Music man, even though it's Music Man. I know, I know. But the fact that they all came out in white at the end in a white look, like just to design 40 something people in that look at the end with all the. I just love the costumes of that show. And so, like, it's not about numbers. It's not. It's about. Yeah, there was six women that won a costume design for six characters and there were 40 or 50 costume more for Music Man. It's not. And Paradise Square, another one great costume. So it's not always about, oh, well, you designed a hundred shows with this Period piece. You should win. It's not always that way. And I get that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Sometimes. Sometimes they will do the quantity over the quality. I would argue Bob Mackie won his Tony for the Cher show for recreating his Cher outfits, because you better believe that man did not dress his ensemble at all.

[Richie]

Right. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

He put them in fucking. He put them in cat suits and had them roll around in glitter and called it a day.

[Richie]

Right, Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I had so many thoughts about your Music Man. First of all, who's throwing shade at the Music Man? The Music Man's a wonderful, almost perfect musical.

[Richie]

Right. I. I agree. I really do. It's an almost perfect. Oh, it's about a con artist. I know, I know.

[Matt Koplik]

But he has a change of heart. He has an arc, Jeff.

[Richie]

It's a dramatic arc putting everybody in a marching man costume and all white marching man costumes. At the end. I was like. I think I was crying at the end of Music Man. That's how. Like, that's the gayest thing you'll hear on this podcast is crying at the end of Music man because of all white marching costs here.

[Matt Koplik]

That's Richie in a nutshell. I just watched that and went, wow, what an expensive high school production this is. So.

[Richie]

But I will say, yeah. And Schmiga Dune gets that Golden Age look. Linda understood the assignment of the homage and the spoofy, but also not just spoofing, but really drawing to what brilliant costume designers did for many years before her in Golden Age cinema and in Broadway. So I thought Schminika Dune got that right with the costumes. And that's why it's tough. That's a tough one.

[Matt Koplik]

It is. Somebody had written recently that Schmiga Dunes is not necessarily an exact send up of Golden Age shows so much as it's a send up of Golden Age shows as you remember them. And I. Whether that's actually what Tinkopolo is going for or not, who's to say? But if that is the case, that's actually fascinating. And I do think that the design reflects that. Like, what what Linda chose costumes does, and the set design. It does. It is steeped in Golden Age musical just from the construction and the aesthetic. But there is a tinge of, like, it's a little too bright, it's a little too sleek to be authentic. And that's okay because that's sort of the point.

[Richie]

Right? Totally. Yeah. I totally get. I love it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I. I'm gonna. I'm gonna stick to my guns and say Queen Jean, but, like, Linda Cho Schminga. Dune could happen. Which leads us to leading actress in a musical.

[Richie]

My gosh. All right, read them off. Read them off.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, we have Sarah Chase in Schmucka. June Stephanie Shue in Richard o' Brien's the Rocky Horror Show. Casey Levy in Ragtime, Marla Mindel in Titanique, and Christiani Pitts in Two Strangers. Parentheses carry a cake across New York

[Jeff]

end parentheses carry a cake.

[Matt Koplik]

It just. And I wish that Two strangers is abbreviation. Wasn't Two strangers. It was just cake or like across. Like, oh, my God. Have you guys seen across yet?

[Richie]

That was funny. See, I like things. All right.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you. Sometimes I make a joke and Richie laughs. It's okay.

[Jeff]

Should we all say it at the same time?

[Richie]

Oh, you think we're all saying the same thing? Oh, gosh, maybe. All right. But I don't want to go first.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, ready?

[Jeff]

Casey.

[Richie]

Casey. Okay. We knew that was going that way. Okay. Okay.

[Jeff]

Wait, where's Lea? Michelle? No.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, we're not. So Leah. Michelle.

[Richie]

Here's my thoughts on that. It just makes the most sense out of everyone. Everyone's working really hard. I believe everyone is a first time nominee in this category.

[Matt Koplik]

They are indeed.

[Richie]

Which is fascinating that we came from last season to this season and what one year can do. They're all doing wonderful stuff. I really enjoy all of them. They're doing really different things, all five of them. I think Casey's handed a incredible role and I think Mother in Ragtime is just like the role of roles for, like middle aged women. Maternal, belting ballads, but acting. And so I'm not saying she's not also deserving of her acting in it. I'm just saying, I think that just the dots lined up for that for her and then she's giving a good performance. And I think that's where we're going with this. And I think it's also her time. If I had to say, it would

[Matt Koplik]

be disingenuous to disregard narratives. They are as important to your Tony campaign as the quality of the work you're doing itself. Jeff, any other comments?

[Jeff]

I would have put Jessica Vosk in this category. That's just me. But yeah, I think Casey, I will

[Richie]

say that was the biggest snub, more than the Lea Michele snub for me was Jessica Vosk, as much as you could say whatever you all want about Beaches. And I get that, that she is. She was singing in that show and acting. I thought she was amazing in Beaches. But yeah, I digress.

[Matt Koplik]

No, it, it, it. I've Been very vocal that I have no qualms with this category. I think everyone in here is who I would have put in when people were going off about the Lea Michelle snub. I'm like, girl, if I was gonna put anyone in here instead of Leah, it would be Jessica Voss.

[Richie]

Totally. Totally.

[Matt Koplik]

Honestly, I would even put in Kristen over Leah. Or, like, Kristen wasn't fully successful in Versailles, but it was a very new thing for her, and I thought she was more successful than not in a show that was not successful. But we. No, it's. It's Casey. I think it is. It's a combination of things. It's. Casey has a really great role in a show that people really love. With a role that has yet to be awarded, it always gets nominated, has yet to actually win. In a weird way, it's like, kind of honoring the legacy of the role and the women who've come before her, like Marin. And Casey's also just really, really, really well liked. She is a kind person, a hard worker. She is consistent. She shows up for the community. She works all the time. I have been very vocal that, like, I think she might be the most misused, talented woman on Broadway where, like, I think she's so tal. And I think she's miscast, like, 60% of her career.

[Richie]

I. Well, I will say that.

[Jeff]

How do you think she would have done in Lost Boys?

[Richie]

Well, it could have been a supporting role, but it wouldn't have because Shoshana isn't supporting. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I think I. I mean, I think she would have been a double nominee if she were in Lost Boys, but also, I wonder if we can talk about that more with. With supporting as well.

[Richie]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

There's the thing about Casey that I love about her and I wish more people took advantage of is, like, she's really good at pouring in 100, like, emotion and commitment into something. And the problem is, is that the roles that tend to require that of her are roles that I don't always think she's the right vocal fit for. Like, I. Much as I think she's strong in ragtime vocally, I just. I don't think it's quite the fit. She's got such a contemporary sounding.

[Richie]

Right. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And sounds lovely, but, like, like, you think about what a Carmen Cusack could sound like, it's like, you want those thick Marin folds. And then when there are roles that, like, are a vocal fit for her, like Frozen or Ghost, it's like, girl, they don't give you any acting to do. She unfortunately has to stand there and like, worry about her placement. Yeah, but so you watch her in Next to Normal, you. If you saw her in Murder Ballad, you know that she can give it to you. And I think of all of the roles I think she's not quite right for Ragtime is the one she's most right for and is platformed well enough for a win. I probably personally would vote for Marla, which may be less of a heavy lift in some people's eyes, but is more of a fit. I would describe it similar to when Marissa Jarrett Winokur won for Hairspray over Bernadette for Gypsy. Rose is the more impressive role, but Marissa was the better fit for her role. But also, I don't think Casey's act as controversial a fit in Mother as Bernadette was as Rose. I think more people just find her successful. And also, Kayce has never been nominated or won. So if Bernadette had never won before Gypsy, she would have probably won. But as you said, Richie, it's Kayce's time and I will not be mad if she won for this. I think this is a less egregious win than, like, for me, than Stephanie J. Block in Cherishou.

[Richie]

Right, right. No, I agree with all of that. I think. I also think Casey. I do think Casey was robbed of a nomination for Frozen. I think those vocals are really hard and I thought she was good and I didn't like that show overall for the most part, but I thought she had some tough moments. And the vocals, that's a big second act song. One of the.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I'm just trying to remember who. Who was nominated over her because I think. Oh, I think that was the year we had. We had more than one. I think we had six in that category that year.

[Richie]

Yeah. And she wasn't even nominated for that. So that's why I thought that was. I don't. It was. That was.

[Matt Koplik]

That was 2018. That was Katrina Langford Band's visit. Who won? That was Taylor Louderman for Mean Girls. I. I stand by both of those nominations. Haley Kilgore for Once on this island, stand by that. And then we had Lachanze for Summer. We had, oh, Lauren Ambrose for My Fair Lady. I stand by that. And Jesse Mueller for Carousel. Yeah, Honestly, I would. I would have had no problem kicking out Lachanze or Jesse Mueller for Casey in that case, in that year.

[Richie]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Not that Casey would support that. Casey's like, no, let those girls have their nominations because she's A kind soul. But, yeah, you brought up a subject, Richie, there.

[Richie]

I did, I did, I did.

[Jeff]

And you went deep dive.

[Richie]

There we go. That was good, though. That was good.

[Matt Koplik]

That was for people who aren't watching this on YouTube, Jeff. Richie, was I reading anything? When I said, not at all.

[Richie]

We're looking straight into the camera. That was actually really impressive because I cannot do that. I can do that sometimes, but not like that.

[Matt Koplik]

That.

[Richie]

That was cool.

[Jeff]

It's just.

[Matt Koplik]

That's my freak party trick.

[Richie]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Matt Koplik]

But, yeah, I will also say, by the way, I just want to say one more time before the season closes out and the episode before the nominations came out was right before. It was right after they had announced the final eligibility rulings and Stephanie Shu was deemed lead. And I had said to everybody, do we think this could mess things up? Because I think she's quite good in the show.

[Richie]

She is good in the show. And I was blown away by two. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

When. When Luke Evans seduces her in the bed, that singular horny leg she does, It's. I'm like, girl, she was great.

[Jeff]

She gave us. We were talking about this, too.

[Matt Koplik]

She.

[Jeff]

At first we were like, a little. In act one, we were like, all right. And then she fully came into that role.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Jeff]

And we were like, okay, now we understand why she was nominated.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I mean, that's sort of the. The arc of the role, though. Like, Janet is. Has so little in Act One, so it's really. You have to kind of see the small things she does in Act 1 to even know if she knows what she's doing, because she does. And then when Janet becomes freaky, that's when Stephanie shoes. Like, I'm in control. I know what I'm doing.

[Richie]

Right.

[Jeff]

And then she. When she comes down in the final scene with that wig and that, like, I was like, come on, give it to us.

[Richie]

She was great. She was really great, Stephanie.

[Matt Koplik]

Watching Andrew Duran get his ass eaten out.

[Richie]

That was a trip, that show.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm sorry. Everyone out here is talking. Sarah, come down to me. I'm like, can we talk about the. The salad tossing of Andrew Durant? Why is the Internet ignorant, Evans?

[Jeff]

I'm pretty sure everyone in Hell's Kitchen would want that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, everyone in Hell's Kitchen would play either role. They would. They would true us. Friday night, they're Andrew Durand. Saturday night, they're Luke Evans.

[Richie]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Jeff]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

White Lotus. Truly everywhere on Broadway this season. Okay, so now it's my turn. Let's do. I'm going to skip Scenic design. We're going to throw us for a loop here. I'm going to do orchestrations and score. So for best orchestrations we have Schmidtoun, the Lost Boys, Cats, the Jellicle Ball, Two Strangers Carry Cake Across New York and Chess also very solid category. There's nothing here I would really deny. I do want to. Once again, I feel like such a queen of Versailles apologists. But I do think this orchestration is kind of slouching.

[Richie]

They were, they were pretty good. Yeah, I didn't, I, I. It was a lush score, that show.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I think that, I think Schwarz's score is like a 4.5 out of 10. I think those orchestrations are 8.5 out of 10.

[Richie]

Yeah, I would say so.

[Matt Koplik]

The thing about orchestrations is that the rule tends to go with tied to the best score winner or usually a revival that has like a major rearrangement or sorry, not even arrival. It's usually the best score winner or any kind of show that has a specific musical rearrangement. So sometimes it's like a jukebox musical that does something crazy or it's a revival that does something crazy. So like Sweeney Todd winning for its, you know, insane asylum actor, musician, shit or girl from north country taking Bob Dylan and turning it into, you know, Great Depression era style music. There are exceptions. Some Like It Hot winning orchestrations, Billy Elliot and X Normal tying for orchestrations from Billy Elliot to not win score.

[Richie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So like, you know, there's, there are caveats but if you're looking for an easy cheat, that's the way to go. So if you are thinking of like what's the most likely score winner, you could go with that. I think Chess and Jellicoe Ball are our revival nominees of those two. Jellicoe Ball I think does something more interesting with the music. So I guess. Yeah.

[Jeff]

Because it makes you want to listen to it.

[Richie]

Wow. Cats shade. I for one like the original Broadway cast recording of Cats. Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Cats has bops.

[Richie]

It does have bops.

[Jeff]

I know, but I'm saying like I think many more people would want to listen to a new cast recording of Cats.

[Matt Koplik]

The Jellicle Ball. Yeah, I think we want it. I think we want it. It's, it's. I think that Jellicoe Balls Orchestrations has reminded people, hey, she's always been a bop, but now we've given her a new coat of paint.

[Richie]

Right?

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[Richie]

And I will say, and that's why

[Jeff]

I'm picking it for best orchestrations.

[Richie]

There we go. That's your Bullish statement.

[Matt Koplik]

Reggie, are you doing the same?

[Richie]

I'm doing the same. And the only thing I'll say to piggyback off that is when we go into score, there's something about Schmigadoon and the score and the orchestration and something golden agey and that kind of being married together that, like. Yeah. Could I see it going, like, score, schmigadoon, orchestration, Schmigadoon, Sure. But also, I could also see them just doing the complete opposite and going with Cats. But I would say Cats is the. The one. It just sounds like it was just reinvented in a. In a smart way from the orchestration perspective.

[Matt Koplik]

So, yeah, I think I'm. We'll talk about this in a second when we get to score. I'm still struggling with how much I buy Schmadoon could win score. And because of that, I'm having a hard time buying it for orchestrations unless it's a. Some like a hot situation where they're like, you know, there's a better score, but you dress up your music quite nicely.

[Richie]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, and so I think I'm gonna go with you guys, and I'm gonna say Jellicoe Ball. But I wanted on the record that I'm seeing Schminga Doon in the corner watching me kiss her.

[Richie]

We go into score, we'll talk more about Shimmy Doom, because I have thoughts on that too.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I don't think it's happening for Lost Boys, and it's not happening for Chess, Although I do think that Brian Useford does some really lovely work there.

[Richie]

Yeah, it's an. I think the musical orchestra.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, the. The music, I think, in chess is given, you know, first rate care by everybody. And so that's really nice. But for this, I think the nomination is. Is the win for him. So I hope he takes that as a blue chip for future endeavors.

[Richie]

Yeah, totally.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Okay, so that's orchestrations. We're all saying Jellicoe Ball, although I feel like I'm the only one being like, hey, guys, Schmegadoon's over there.

[Richie]

We're going there next.

[Jeff]

It could. It could be Schmegadoon, too. But no, I really think it's going to Cats.

[Matt Koplik]

But so now we have. For original score, we have Joe Turner's Come and Gone, Two Strangers Carry a Cake Across New York, Schmigadoon, the Lost Boys, and Death of a Salesman.

[Richie]

Can I ask something? Well, first of all, we have two plays in here, so that's okay, because that's part of the. That's best original score for the stage. But then I was going through the whole season saying Schmigadoon's not even gonna be eligible. It was written for the television, right? It was written for tv. And I'm asking this. Cause I don't know. And I'm wondering if, you know, what made the Tony Committee make this eligible. Are there enough new songs in this that were not written for tv? Like I'm asking. Cause I don't know.

[Jeff]

I think we looked at enough that there was enough.

[Richie]

It just seems like there's so many from the Apple TV show. I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, do you want me to tell you what I think is the PR statement for why or why I think why?

[Richie]

Well, both.

[Matt Koplik]

The PR statement is ultimately like that Schminga Doon has kind of been peddling is that single Paul actually wrote like a dozen new songs for Schmigadoon. And it's a combination of things, I think. I don't know the TV show well enough, but from my own sleuthing and a lot of other people's sleuthing, the quote, unquote, 12 new songs include a lot of songs that were in the TV show, but have new lyrics or have, like, a new arrangement of. Of a song. Okay, so he's done work on the score. It's not a total copy paste. And there are two or three actual new songs, right?

[Jeff]

And they did change. He did change a lot because we did watch the show. And I was like, oh, that song's not the same anymore.

[Richie]

Yeah, so there was. So.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah, he definitely redid some stuff. And. And part of the reason why this category is sort of prickly is, like, there's a history of best score winners going to scores that had been around for a few years before the show came along. Like a certain show that's sitting behind you on your shelf right now of Evita. Evita, Tommy. Evita was a. Was a concept album.

[Richie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So it was. And so. And same thing with Jesus Christ Superstar.

[Richie]

Jesus Christ. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so up until Tommy, the idea was, well, if it was written for that property, then when the property comes to the stage, it can still be eligible. And then Tommy was a really big to do because everyone's like, Tommy's 25 years old. How is this a new score? Even if Pete Townsend wrote a couple of new lyrics, you know, and, like, wrote one new song? And so they altered the rules a bit, and that's always been in flux. My cynical Take is, if this were a stronger year for new musicals, Schmigadoon would not have been eligible for score. Ultimately, it was such. It was such a wasteland that they were like. Like it. Who cares?

[Richie]

Well, the fact that.

[Jeff]

Well, I can't believe they didn't nominate Queen of Versailles, but especially being Steven Schwartz, that's all.

[Richie]

Yeah, people didn't like.

[Jeff]

I mean, when you really look at it, I was like, all right, the score was not that bad. There were some duds in there, but,

[Matt Koplik]

oh, yeah, Lizard song is a dud. Every Abraham song is a dud. But also, I'm sitting here going, I think the 11 o' clock number is actually decent. I think have your dreams is good. I've said it before. Worse scores have been nominated. Urban cowboy, where you at? See me with them hands?

[Jeff]

You know what I mean?

[Richie]

I mean, with this. I mean, my. My gut and my votes going with Schmigadoon, I think it's getting a lot of love right now. It's the golden age score that we haven't had in a very long time for an original golden age S score. I know maybe Happy ending had elements of golden age s, but it was more jazz and more pop jazz. It wasn't really like that lush orchestral that I just. And I just think there's some funny numbers in there. I just. I do have a personal love for that TV show and the score. So that's just where I go. Because I like it, and that's just kind of where I'm voting.

[Matt Koplik]

When in doubt, go with what you like. Gf.

[Jeff]

I am also going with Schmiga Dune, but I could see possibly two strangers winning for original score.

[Matt Koplik]

That's kind of where I'm at right now. I. Cause I'm asking myself, do I see Schmigadoon winning the triple crown of musical score and book? And right now, I can't fully bring myself to see that world. Yeah, I can see it winning book. And if. And then I ask myself, okay, well, Matthew, if. If you don't see it, winning score, what do you see? Winning score. And it's not the Lost Boys, and it's not Joe Turner's come and gone. And there ain't enough Tony voters in the world with big enough balls to vote for Death of his Salesman over three eligible musicals. Right.

[Richie]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

None. Or Sorry Or. Or. Or Uterus is big enough. Sorry. Or Ovaries big enough. I want to be equal footing here.

[Richie]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

So ultimately, I come down to Two Strangers, which is a show that I thought was Cute. Not great, but same, same. But I do ultimately think that the score for me worked better than the score for Schminga Doon. Schming of Dune is a show that I thought was pretty funny, but I didn't laugh a lot, especially with the songs. Okay, but that's just, you know, not that the songs are bad. It's more sort of when it's so obvious to me what the parody of the song is. I'm like, well, now I just want to listen to the title song from Oklahoma. Like, now I just want to listen to do re me. Right, but that's. That's. That's me in a nutshell. Like, there. I think the Two Strangers has some good lyrics. It's got some clunky lyrics, but you know, what scores these days doesn't. So it's not even like, think it's the best score. I'm just thinking if Two Strangers is going to get thrown a bone anywhere, it's going to be this category or. Listen, I was. I was wrong earlier. I thought that, like, a couple of voters were going to throw some bones at Queen of Versailles and give them, like, a pity set, costume and score nomination also because, like, those categories are sort of also like wastelands, and they didn't do it. So it's entirely possible that voters are going to be ruthless and they're going to say, sorry, choose Strangers. That's one too many stranger for me. And that's not enough cake. And you're not carrying it nearly across New York.

[Richie]

I kind of lean that way with that show, too. But I digress because I do think

[Jeff]

it has, like, the effect of, like, there are some memorable songs in there that people like and are listening to.

[Matt Koplik]

So maybe you said that with such a pained look, Jeff. You're like, no, because it just, like,

[Jeff]

it didn't fully sit with me, that show, but whatever.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I. I liked it fine. I. I had heard such delightful things about it, and of course I. I try to go into everything putting that at bay. But then, listen, it's not the show's fault, but, like, the Two Strangers fandom got as annoying as the Operation Mincemeat fandom. And I'm like, whatever. I thought of the show, I now am starting to hate it because of you, so you need to just shut the fuck up.

[Richie]

I feel like that with. I. I'm also took Two Strangers really literal. I don't know if it was just the mood I was in when I was seeing it that day, but it was like. Like no one would ever be asked to carry a cake in different boxes like that from a bakery. Like, I was sitting there, like, spoiler alert for anyone who hasn't seen it. Why did the top fall off? The cake would never be given from a baker to someone in five different boxes like that and expected to. And I was like, that's where my brain was. I couldn't get over it. And everyone's like, richie, it's a musical. I'm like, I know. But, like, that bothered me.

[Jeff]

And someone with a black American Express is not buying a cake that way either. So.

[Richie]

Yeah, right.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, I just like not having it personally delivered by professionals.

[Richie]

Yeah, I didn't buy that at all. So that was like a real. Like, that weighed me down a lot. I'm like, no. But then there was cute moments. I kept saying, it's cute, it's cute. It's so cute. It's cute. And that was about it, you know?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I need. I need. Maybe it's because I. I just saw it yesterday, so it's on my brain. But I really do need a lot of musical theater dramaturgs and book writers to watch movies like Obsession and Get out and where was the other one? Those are the ones you on my brain right now. But, like, these more modern horror films that, like, give you just enough answers that you understand what the setup is, but don't give you. You too much information, because the more information we get, the more questions we have. Oh, weapons. That was the third one I was thinking of. Like, you can't give us too. You can't say too many specific things to explain whatever, because then we're gonna have questions about other shits. Like, give us enough of a setup. Have us buy into the world and keep that moving. And Two Strangers is a show that should be 90 minutes, in my opinion. Part of it is that, like, when you stretch it out that way, like, you start to see the thinness of the taffy. And. Yeah, then, like, they. There are all these things about Christiani Pitts's character that we learn to, like, answer whatever questions we have. And I'm like, okay, but Now I've got 30 more questions.

[Richie]

Yeah, totally. I get that.

[Matt Koplik]

But also, like, I think what it has in its corner is the true originality of it all. It is a. It's a fully original story. It's a fully original piece. I think that a lot of voters will enjoy that element of it. It is. It does still have an underdog quality to it. It's had an underdog quality all Year long. The biggest problem, besides what you. What we all think about it, you know, no one's listening to us and going, well, those three gays said so. So I feel good writing it off.

[Richie]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

But it's ultimately that they have not been able to recreate buzz during the Tony season. It's. It still has a leg in the race, but it's not really grappling people right now in the way that Schmigadoon kind of has.

[Richie]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And so whether Schmigadoon is worthy or not, in my eyes, it is objectively capturing voters in a way that just two strangers isn't. So I still. This isn't a gut feeling. This is me overanalyzing and going, I'm thinking, two strangers for score. But my gut's like, I don't know, Matt. Are you really that prejudiced? And you can't see Schmigadoon winning the triple Crown, especially when we've had quite a few musicals in the last few years, like, do that. We've had a maybe happy ending. Kimberly Akimbo, you know, Hamilton, Fun home, what have you. Evan Hansen, Band's visit. But, yeah, I don't know. Know. I don't know. Actually, I'm trying to think for a second. Since COVID we've had. I think we've had two musicals since COVID win score without winning musical, but nothing. And.

[Richie]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

And only suffs winning book and not musical. So if you're gonna win, I.

[Richie]

And I wonder if I. I do wonder more and more in the world of the post Covid world of, like, trying to sell tickets, trying to keep Broadway alive and, like, keep the Broadway art form going. I wonder if there's this sense of the spread the wealth mentality of, like, if everybody wins one or two Tony Awards, then everybody can board up on the title that says we're a Tony winning musical, even if you won one. Is there anything wrong with that? I don't. I mean, it's marketing. Marketing, marketing.

[Matt Koplik]

But.

[Richie]

But I don't know. Voters care like that or vote like that. I would love to know if some do because. No, let's spread the wealth here because every show needs this. I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, I think there are some voters who think that way. It's not nearly the large percentage that people like to think it's right. The road vote that people like to talk about that. I've. We've debunked it enough times on this podcast that if you're a regular listener, y' all know that the road vote is real, but it's not a deciding factor. It's really only the deciding factor when it's, like, down to the wire.

[Richie]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But even then, you have to ask yourself, if you're a road presenter, how are you voting? Are you voting for the thing that would need the Tony win to help sell it, or the thing where you're like, this is such an easy win. Give it a Tony and I can jack up all the prices? I don't know. I don't know your life. Daniel, who's the name, I'm assuming, of that Tony Road voter? I think. I think most voters genuinely just think about what they liked the most. And I think when they come to spreading the wealth, it's more about asking themselves, do I like this show enough to give it all of these awards? I don't know. If I do, who am I sort of iffy on? Oh, I can give that to so and so. You know, like, because no maybe happy ending that no problem giving it six bands. They said they had no problem giving it nine or ten. There are exceptions. But I don't think there's any new musical this season that all that. That a large number of voters are, like, absolutely down the. Down the line. So that's why. That's where I'm thinking, like, book and score could go in different directions, but I'm going to stick to two strangers. I'm probably going to regret it once we go off mic, but that's where I'm at in this moment.

[Richie]

All right.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay.

[Jeff]

And I. I do want to make one comment about the Lost Boys score.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, love.

[Jeff]

Because I do feel that it had great potential for an original score here. If they kept the style of Act 1, and they kept more of this eerie, like, angelic harmonizing with the vampires, and they kept it going throughout the piece. And it just kind of makes me make this comment around, like, when we don't really have musical theater writers that are, like, from that time where they read, like, they wrote, like, through themes. It's like, we are seeing that in the new scores now that they're not writing how we know musical theater. It's like something that. It just stuck out for me. It stood out for me. Cause I was like, oh, wait, that was a really beautiful moment, but we never got it again. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Motifs are important, y'. All. Yeah, they have, like, there's some of that in Lost Boys. Like, Michael has his whole, like, I don't want to be alone. I want to find my something or whatever that Is like, they use that a little bit. Then the finale of the whole show is like kind of a one day more ish sort of thing. No more monster superpower and I'll be with you. Like, it's all of that and then and whatever. But I think for a first score from people who have never been in this world, the rescues did a very commendable job. There's stuff there. But yeah, it is sort of the. You know, Sarah Bareilles didn't write a good musical theater score by accident. She's a musical theater freak who knows her writing and it's. And like, found a way into fame and money through a certain career, but has proven herself time and time again. Like, she's a musical theater girly.

[Richie]

Right? And not everyone, not all the pop people are. I mean, the Ingrid Michaelson not getting nominated for Notebook score she was pissed about. I remember her being like reading about and she hasn't been back since. And me.

[Jeff]

But she ended every song on the same note.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, what's going on here? I mean, the opening song was literally just time, time, time, time, time, time, time, time, time, time, time.

[Richie]

But.

[Matt Koplik]

But like the be music in. In the Notebook. But I remember when she wasn't nominated, I. I kind of nodded my head. I was like, good. Like, she needs to write a second score now.

[Richie]

Yeah, yeah, now. Right now. Go and work at another one. Right. Like, don't just say I'm done now, because you didn't get nominated. But it seems like that's what she did. But who knows? But, you know, no, I mean, she was. She was hurt.

[Matt Koplik]

She worked very hard on it. I understand that. But I would love it if she came back with something else at some point because there were songs in the Notebook that I really liked, but other songs, like I'm so. I've said it before. For me, my Days is the Let it burn of that season of like, it's a song where the. That make that people love is that the actress just goes higher and higher and higher.

[Richie]

Right.

[Jeff]

Like everyone in the Lost Boys.

[Richie]

Wow. Good one, Jeffrey R. Wow.

[Matt Koplik]

Jeffrey Lee hates gay vampires. Okay.

[Richie]

All right, where are we going next?

[Matt Koplik]

Wait, you're done. So, okay, we have so far done lighting, costume and sound design of musicals and plays. We've done orchestrations and score. We've done director of a play and musical, and we've done leading actors of play. A musical.

[Jeff]

But you didn't do a big one. You only did orchestrations.

[Matt Koplik]

I think orchestrations and score combined is.

[Jeff]

Okay, fine.

[Richie]

All right, we're gonna. So, all right, so I'm gonna take us back to where we're. Can I go? Am I next?

[Jeff]

Go for it.

[Richie]

I'll do. All right, so I'm gonna do scenic design of a play, scenic design of musical, and then we're gonna jump to Choreo.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay.

[Richie]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

So scenic design of a play. We have Oedipus Bug, Dog Day Afternoon, Death of a Salesman, and Fallen Angels. There's a reason to vote for any of these guys.

[Richie]

Totally.

[Jeff]

Yeah, there really is.

[Richie]

Totally. I, I, I'm, like, blown away by what that Dog Day Afternoon set and how fast it was moving and, like, how intricate we were in and out. And I know that's technology and it is part of the design, but I was just kind of really, like, fascinated by that. It was one of the best parts of that. That show, for me, was just how extremely quickly it felt, like I was on a ride in Disney or something. Like, it was just moving. But I also loved, loved, loved the Fallen Angels set. And so I'm kind of just torn between those two completely different sets. I don't know, just sitting on those two right now. I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, Dark Day Afternoon set didn't move fast enough for me. Those, those scene transitions, I was like,

[Richie]

yeah, I just was kind of cool that there was no track. It wasn't like, I don't know the technology behind that, but it was really cool.

[Jeff]

I was just kind of like, there's something about Death of a Salesman's scenic design here that's just like. It's really what brought me into the show. And, like, I found so many details happening on that stage where I'm, like, looking around and I'm saying, oh, look, that's part of a memory. That's this over here. Like, let's see this actor over here. And it, like, worked in so many different ways. So I'm like, a toss up between Death of a Salesman and Fallen Angels, but I just feel like there's just a vivid memory and, like, piece of Death of a Salesman that stands out for me in the.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, there's something here for everyone. Like Fallen Angels is a beautifully opulent art deco set. Death of a Salesman is stark but striking and serves the purpose of the production. And while it may seem simple, it holds a lot of surprises within Dog Day Afternoon. Very literal, but impressive, and as you like, does move very fluidly. It's a very detailed and impressive set, Bug. Also very detail oriented with a major reveal in the second act. And then Oedipus you know, again, stark and sleek, but very intricate and very well spaced out.

[Richie]

It's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a very good. It's a very good category. I'm going to go with Dog Day Afternoon here. I feel it in my fingers. I feel it in my toes. That said, because I think part of me is also going, like, how many wins can Salesman actually have? Similar to, like, the Schmidt Goodoon of Can I get the Triple Crown? I'm like, right. Can, like, could Salesman genuinely just get, like, eight Tonys that night? It could, it could. I just. I'm. I'm not. I'm not sure yet. Yet. And so I'm more sort of looking at, like, where. What are the weakest Jenga pieces that, like, could easily get pushed out? And I do think that score scenic, and we'll get to it. But like, featured actor in a play, I think those are its three weakest categories and could win. But it's a thing where, again, voters, like, I already have it in six slots. Must I give it a. A seventh?

[Richie]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So that's the only thing for me where that I'm like, that's kind of keeping. Afternoon. But, Jeff, didn't you say Oedipus for Sound? Was that your thing, or was that Richie's thing? Or do we all say salesman for sound?

[Richie]

You were doing sound a little bit because of the clock ticking and all that for Oedipus.

[Jeff]

Yeah, yeah, I. I put Oedipus for Sound.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So, like, if Oedipus wins sound, like, I don't know, Salesman could then win Scenic design. Like, this is how we balance it out.

[Jeff]

It could, yeah. I mean, I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, I. I don't think it's happening for Bug. I don't. I don't think it's actually happening for Oedipus. I do think it's down to Afternoon and Salesman, and I. I think Fallen Angels has a much stronger chance in costume. That's why I don't. That's why I don't think the set's going to happen. Beautiful as that set is, Dave Rockwell knows how to design an apartment. Honey.

[Richie]

Yeah.

[Jeff]

I was like, can we live there?

[Richie]

Yeah, I know. Beautiful. Cool.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. Seeing this design of a musical. Richard o' Brien say what now?

[Jeff]

I was just. I think this is easy, but.

[Richie]

Okay. Okay, go.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. Richard o' Brien's Theraki Horror Show Two Strangers Carry a Cake Across New York. Cats, the Jellicle Ball, the Lost Boys and Schmigadoon. While I think that the Winner is rather easy. I also want to say, I think this is a really good lineup. I think everyone's serving a little something different and very worthwhile. I'm gonna go with Lost Boys with a potential Schmigadoon upset.

[Jeff]

Oh.

[Richie]

Oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, I. Lost Boys, too. I didn't think Schmigadoon, because I think I actually saw they did a video somewhere about it. A lot of it's hand painted, and, like, it's really just. I always appreciate that. And I think, you know, it's interesting when you look at all of these. Like, there's almost. No, Let me look again before I say what I'm about to say. There's almost no projections used in any of these designs. Nothing wrong with the projection design. But we've had some shows that are so projection heavy that I think we're dealing with five literal use sets.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe Jellicoe has a little bit. But that's. But it's part of the thing. Like the overture. They do a projection of. Of that, but.

[Richie]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

No, it's. But yeah, it's a literal. It's. It is overall a literal set. It's not projections in the way that Ragtime's doing projections.

[Richie]

Right. I think Lost Boys.

[Jeff]

I really think.

[Richie]

I think so.

[Jeff]

While I thought that the Rocky Horror was cool in, like, bringing some stuff out there, some of it felt a little clunky, like on the actual stage. And then Jellicle Ball, I don't. I'm comparing the set to it off Broadway, and I just feel like I was a little bit more immersed into it when it was at pac. So, I mean, I love what they did with the Staircase on Broadway, which was cool. But I don't think that's bringing it to the level that they're gonna award it.

[Matt Koplik]

So Jellicoe Ball is not winning for this. I agree. Like, I think everyone who saw it downtown and on Broadway, I think overall, it is an improvement on Broadway. The one thing that's kind of lost is the length of that Runway. And just by the sheer design of pack, you are environmentally in it. But I do think they do a really strong job of keeping that energy alive for Broadway.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And. Yes. And. And while the Runway may not be longer. Yes, the staircase is an improvement. Thank you for saying her name, Jeff.

[Jeff]

She's a character.

[Matt Koplik]

She is. And then you had choreography. Next.

[Richie]

Was that Choreo next. That's where we're going.

[Jeff]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, no, wait, Richie, what did. What did you have? You had Lost Boys as well.

[Richie]

I put Lost Boys and I, I had put a shout out to Dots. Rocky Horror Show. I don't think that's going to win. But I do love everything Dots does. I've just always. When I received scenic design by Dots, I'm like, this is cool. I just like what they did.

[Jeff]

Just not. Didn't they do.

[Richie]

They did Omar, right.

[Jeff]

At Lincoln center last year, they did Floyd Collins. Yeah, yeah.

[Richie]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I. I liked it.

[Richie]

I know. You know nothing like a musical about crawling through caves, but there's nothing on stage anyway. Continue.

[Matt Koplik]

Bob Crowley won a set design for designing a bar. For once, I'm just saying, sometimes it's not about me, it's about best.

[Richie]

You're right.

[Matt Koplik]

No, but I hear you. I know why people didn't like the design for Floyd Collins. I think it ultimately was the double edged sword of them being in that theater of it's such a cavernous space. Like if they were do. If that. If they had the same design in the booth, I think everyone would have gone.

[Richie]

Right, right. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But I, but I hear you. I hear you. All right. Okay.

[Richie]

Choreography.

[Matt Koplik]

Christopher Catelli for Schmiga. Christopher Cree Grant. Christopher Cree Grant. And Lauren Yolango. Grant for the Lost Boys. Arturo Lyons and Omari Wiles for Cats. The Jellicle Ball. Eleanor Scott for Rectime. And then anitaj for Richard o' Brien's the Rocky Horror Show. I love that Anitosh is in here.

[Richie]

I. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

The choreography for Rocky Horror is messy, but like.

[Richie]

And also it's just when you have the time warp where you have to do the choreo that the time work is literally saying in the lyrics and the. I. I also thought Rocky Horror. I know the script and score doesn't really call for it, but I would have loved if there was like 15 people in the ensemble. I don't know, like beef it up.

[Matt Koplik]

It needed some more people. There's a reason why Sam Pinkleton ultimately wasn't nominated, even though the production was nominated for a lot. And it's that there are a lot of individual things about it that were work, but there's something about the production as a whole that doesn't fully congeal.

[Richie]

Yeah, we've talked about that. Yeah, yeah. Yep, yep.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[Richie]

But this. So this choreo is really tough for me. Maybe it's not as tough for y', all, but for me it's between two and it's really tough.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm assume. I think I know the two you think it's between.

[Richie]

Okay, what do you think?

[Jeff]

Definitely Rag Time.

[Richie]

Yeah. No, get.

[Jeff]

No, I'm kidding.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, I thought Eleanor Scott did a really lovely job with Crime of the Century, but that's really the only number where I'm like, good for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. But, like, there's. There are certain moments in Ragtime where I'm just like, we missed it. I hate how success is done.

[Richie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But I. But, yeah, she's. Yeah, but. So, yes, it's.

[Jeff]

We just watched the performance of Cats on the View, and I'm like, I rewatched that choreo now, and I'm like, no, like, they have to win. Yeah.

[Richie]

But, like, I mean, I. I just. It's. To me, it's between Cats and Schmigadoon. It's really, really completely like no other. But I just think what those people are doing in both those shows and the design and how effortless it looks in both shows, I'm just. It's hard. I don't know. That could be. That could come down to a couple votes.

[Matt Koplik]

I think it could both. Both shows nail their assignment.

[Richie]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I think I am ultimately going with Jello Ball.

[Richie]

Yeah, I think so, too.

[Matt Koplik]

That's. That's because it's my gut. It's not even what I. It is what I prefer, but that's not why I'm picking it. It's just. I'm going with my gut of, like, there's something within me. I don't. I feel like I'm starting a Disney song right now. A Disney I want song right now. But something within me that just truly believes that Jellicle Ball is going to walk out on Tony night with, like, five Tony's minimum. Maybe four, but I think, like, four or five Tonys, and I think. Think one of those is choreography, and if anything is beating, it is absolutely Christopher Catelli for Schminga Doon. It is down to those two. What could get Catelli the award is just the momentum that Schminga Doon has and a chance to vote for it in other categories. But also, like, I think that, like, if they're winning the Triple Crown, I don't think Itelli is gonna win choreography because it's like, it's got the three big ones.

[Richie]

Great.

[Matt Koplik]

You have to ask yourself, like, how. How large is the percentage of voters who, like, are on board with the new of it all of Jellicobal, and how many. How large is the percentage of voters who are, like, I love a pivot turn and a. And an aerial lift.

[Richie]

Right, right, right. And it's and it's so tough. I never thought I'd be sitting here talking about two of the most completely opposite shows for choreo and that they'd be neck and neck. But that's the beauty of the arc art form, Right?

[Jeff]

So I'm sold on the voguing to Jellicoe Ball on its own, where we got dip after dip. After what? Another dip? Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I think the what would be this isn't a ding against it, but what I could imagine being an obstacle for certain voters is because the choreography is so seamlessly integrated in the cast performs it so well. It could seem to the untrained eye that it's all improv and, like, nothing's really set in stone.

[Richie]

They.

[Matt Koplik]

They work around the choreo like it's more like it's more of a guideline, and they do what they want on the day that shit is locked in.

[Richie]

Oh, yeah.

[Jeff]

And it's like doing it at the exact same time. I don't think. It's not messy at all. So, like, when I see this, I'm like, wow. All of their hands are moving at the exact same time. That's like, come on.

[Matt Koplik]

I think that Jellicoe ball deserves orchestrations and choreography for the hand claps and the opening number alone. When they go. The Jellicoe Cats are queens of that

[Richie]

night on two and four.

[Matt Koplik]

Jellicle Cats are queens of the nine singing at Astronomical. Okay, I can't. I can't keep calling.

[Richie]

I love it. All right.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So there we go.

[Richie]

Cool. Where are we next? That was mine.

[Matt Koplik]

So who's you, Jeff?

[Jeff]

Sorry, is it me?

[Richie]

You gotta choose. Well, there's small and big left anymore. Unless we do the supportings as well.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I guess. Who? It depends on who you consider small. I think now we're in the bigs, so you can do two bigs. We'll each do two big ones.

[Jeff]

We're doing two bigs. Let's do Book of a Musical and Revival of a Play.

[Matt Koplik]

Love it. Revival of a Play. Which one do you want to do first?

[Jeff]

Book of a Musical.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, our nominees are. Our nominees are Jim Barn and Kit Buchan for Two Strangers, Parentheses Carry a Cake across New York and Parentheses Also across for Short, Marlon Mandel and Constantine Rasooli for Titanique, Chris Hawk and David Hornsby for the Lost Boys and Cinco Paul for Schmigadoon. I will just say I'm a fan of Chris Hawk. I love that. David Hornsby, AKA Cricket from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia as a Tony nominee. And yeah, there you have it. My personal vote. My personal vote would be Titanique. However, I know that it has a snowballs chance in hell. So that's not what I'm predicting.

[Jeff]

Huh.

[Richie]

Interesting.

[Jeff]

I think I'm gonna put it as mine.

[Richie]

So I, I put it as mine because I really think it is the most different thing. It's just so different and it's so funny and I know not every Tony voter is gonna find it to be that funny and different. I get that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Richie]

Maybe it is just my personal choice, but I really could see Tiny Tuck. Tiny coming out with one Tony Award and it's for book. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe that world exists.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, I would love it. I would love it so hard.

[Jeff]

I would love.

[Matt Koplik]

Part of me is like, I can't imagine a book with the line eggplant in her ass appealing to voters. Granite. We also have the same voters who voted for a Strange Loop winning book and that has the line, oh, so you think you're too good for aids. And I think Strange Loop had the benefit of the Pulitzer and you know, other larger themes at its disposal, which is not to. To negate Strange Loop. Everyone knows I adore that show, but I do look at that with Titanic. I'm like, okay, that gives Titanic a case to, to potentially win. But I just think that, I think it's the best one of these four, I think. And granted, I think the Broadway iteration is a little weaker than the off Broadway iteration. They added some material that is not as good. Like they added some stuff for Jim Parsons that I just think is sort of fluff and, and weak. Some jokes have now added like an extra butcher them to them for Broadway audiences. Like they, they, they did a. They have the spread eagle line in the show which just it off Broadway. It was just. Did they, did he do number 17, this Red Eagle? And now they've added Marlon M. Coming out and going, he had it coming.

[Richie]

Right? They have to. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm like, that's. That's for Betsy from Long island who's like, oh, right. That is Chicago.

[Richie]

Right, right, right. And they needed to do that because it's going to tour now. Right. I mean, they have to. You know, there's audience.

[Matt Koplik]

I get why.

[Richie]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

But although ultimately of all of these four, I think it's the one that hits the closest bullseye of the target it has set. But this is where I'm like cynical and I go, I think that they're going to go for Schmiga Dune.

[Richie]

I Think they could, too.

[Jeff]

Okay.

[Richie]

What did you put, Jeff?

[Jeff]

I put Titanic.

[Richie]

Oh, you put Titanic as well.

[Matt Koplik]

So I want to live in reality.

[Jeff]

Boys are like.

[Richie]

I will say. I will say it would be really cool for Titanique or Schmigadoon to win as these, like, wild comedy shows. And a lot of times, not always the best. The top musical of the year is the, like, raucous, like, silly slapstick comedies. Not really always when you look at the history of it. So to see that Titanique and Schmina Jun are in there as these, like, silly, outlandish comedies, good for them, you know, for getting up there.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. I think Titanique, I have it as third of most likely. I do think it's Schwingadoon followed by Two Strangers followed by Titanic. Just in terms of likelihood.

[Richie]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

Two Strangers. I feel like Two Strangers is kind of second place in both score and book right now in terms of like. Like, it's kind of a soft situation where I don't. I don't see it winning both. I see it could potentially win one while also not winning musical, but also, again, I think because so much air has been deflated out of that balloon moon, I don't necessarily see it happening. Listen, if Titanic does win, gentlemen, you are not going to hear a peep out of me. You know, I'm gonna be thrilled. I'm gonna piss myself.

[Richie]

All right. I'm just.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm just. I'm be.

[Richie]

I'm.

[Matt Koplik]

My cynical self is taking over. And I don't think that this. That the script for Schmigajun is bad. I just think that Titanics is better. And I just see too many, many silly people who will go. I'm like, yeah, I did.

[Richie]

Right, right, right. I still think the Beauty and the Beast moment is so funny. I find it funny every time they do it, and I've seen it a million times, and I just think it's so funny.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. I will always. I'm sorry. I will always laugh at favorite color burnt sienna.

[Richie]

Yeah, there's just moments where you laugh every time.

[Matt Koplik]

I get it every fucking time. It's also. Do you trust me? Trust you? I barely know you. Oh, okay. Like, it's witty.

[Richie]

And I'm so glad they kept the Patti LuPone bit every time. I was hoping that was not going to get caught. I'm glad they kept that.

[Matt Koplik]

No, they're too lazy to cut it.

[Jeff]

For your life.

[Matt Koplik]

Both. Oh, yeah. The time to lip sync. For your life. Life Boats. Yeah. Okay. So you guys think it's Titanic. I think it's Schmingadoon. Do you have Schmigadoon as your number two or Two Strangers as your noon's?

[Richie]

My number two.

[Jeff]

I don't think Two Strangers was a complete book, so I don't know how I can win, but. Hey.

[Richie]

Okay, well, wow.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, they gave it to Cats, so, you know. Okay.

[Richie]

They gave best book of the musical to Cats a long time, but it's

[Matt Koplik]

the same year as Merlin. Like, what were they gonna do?

[Richie]

Oh, yeah, yeah. They literally.

[Matt Koplik]

They were given the option of a man and not a bear, but an animal. And. And they. They went with the bear, you know? Yeah. So. Okay, my turn now.

[Richie]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I am going to do featured actor in a play and featured actress in a musical.

[Jeff]

Oh, wait, we didn't do my second one.

[Matt Koplik]

What was your second one?

[Jeff]

The revival of a play.

[Richie]

Oh, right.

[Matt Koplik]

We didn't so long talking about the goddamn book.

[Jeff]

I'm sorry, everyone listening here.

[Matt Koplik]

They're leaving me in the corner.

[Richie]

Best survival.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's gonna be pretty quick. Becky Shaw, Death of a Salesman, Every brilliant thing. Fallen Angels, Oedipus. I just want to say, take out every brilliant thing and put in Marjorie prime, and we have a perfect category. I'm done. Okay, so clearly, it's. It's every brilliant thing. No, it's. It's. It's Salesman. It's Salesman.

[Richie]

It's Salesman, which on Salesman.

[Jeff]

On the record here, we'll say, we did not see every brilliant thing.

[Richie]

We did not see every.

[Jeff]

That's the only thing we didn't see.

[Richie]

See, we didn't get that.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, they're not winning, Jack, so that's not gonna matter.

[Richie]

Right. It's the only thing we didn't get to. It could eventually get to it now that it's new cast.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Now we're gonna have. A couple of listeners will be mad. What do you. They didn't see every brilliant thing. They're illegitimate, but it's.

[Jeff]

Okay, well, did they want to buy our 400 ticket?

[Richie]

Because the last row of the rear mezzanine is like $250 or something

[Matt Koplik]

for 40 bucks. So.

[Richie]

Yeah.

[Jeff]

And many. We asked many people, do we need to see it? And they said. Said no. So, yeah, it's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. That's. The revival of a play is super egregious for me. We'll get to this with actor, like Daniel's nomination. I. I was predicting, and I think it's very earned revival, I think is silly. But yeah, it's Salesman. We all know that.

[Richie]

Totally. Salesman. A thousand percent. That's gotta be the win.

[Jeff]

1000.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, so featured actor in a play and featured actress in a musical. Featured actor in a play. We have Christopher Abbott in Death of a Salesman, Danny Burstein and Marjorie Prime, Brandon J. Dearden for Waiting for Godot, Alden Ehrenreich for Becky Shaw, Ruben Sant Hudson for Joe Turner's Come and Gone, and Richard Thomas for the Ballisters. I have it down to three, which sounds lame.

[Richie]

No, that's okay.

[Matt Koplik]

It's better than All Sex because we have, like, we have Christopher Abbott for Salesman, which who I think is a possibility, but I think he is the weakest chance in acting they have for that revival. Alden Ehrenreich for Becky Shaw, who I think is a very strong chance. But also, like, would be the only win for Becky Shaw. And then we have Ruben Santiago Hudson, who's playing a role that has won before. So there's precedent. And Joe Turner's come and gone, but similar to Alden, like would be the only win for his show. Now, Granite Featured is a category where voters have no problem making it like the solo win in the past. Last year was Francis Jew for Yellowface. The year before that was Kara Young for Pearly. Sorry, Pearly victorious. We also had Jack Malone last year for Operation Mincemeat. Like, when it comes to featured, it's like, yeah, sure, they can be the long alone.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So I can. I think I'm in my gut. I have it down to Alden and Reuben. I'm going to say Alden for I think that Becky Shaw is a show that. It feels to me, people really. Most people have really enjoyed it. And the vote for Alden is also a vote for the company for a show that's not going to win revival because Joe Turner's not nominated for revival because no one else from the company is nominated. Like, I. Ruben also is a previous winner. So I don't. I don't know. I think right now I'm saying Alden. I think tomorrow I'm gonna say Reuben. So on this mic right now, I'm saying Alden. But for anyone who's like, you were wrong, just know that I woke up the next day and I said, Reuben, what do you.

[Jeff]

I have it down to two as well, but mine is for Christopher Abbott and Elden. Evan, Rick and I would love a world that Alden wins.

[Matt Koplik]

Were Al Alden wins or Abbott wins.

[Jeff]

No, Alden. Alden.

[Matt Koplik]

Alden. I said Alden. Alden. Alden.

[Jeff]

Alden. Alden.

[Matt Koplik]

You say Alden. I Say Alden.

[Richie]

What if his name was Alden Abbott?

[Matt Koplik]

Then I would tell him to jump in the river, Richie.

[Jeff]

Because he was actually my favorite part of Becky Shaw. And I thought, like, that his acting just. He brought it throughout the whole piece, and I was blown away by him. So, yeah, I would love that. But I also see a world where Christopher Abbott wins as well.

[Richie]

So, Richie, I have Ruben Alden and Christopher Abbott, too. I think Christopher Abbott's given incredible text, and I know that. That it's not always about that. And Ruben is, too. I just think. I just was really captivated by Christopher Abbott's performance in Death of a Salesman. But I do see this going towards Ruben. I know he's a Tony winner. Before, he had some great moments. I. That was. He was one of the strongest parts of that show. And I can see the Tony voters going that way for a show that didn't get much else, you know, too. That's a tough.

[Matt Koplik]

He's absolutely the best performance in that production, as is Alden. Honestly, I think that's kind of. Maybe. Maybe that's kind of why I'm leaning away towards Abbott, where, granted, I saw it early in previews, but at the time, I did not think he was this. One of the strongest performances in the show. As I understand it, he has grown a lot over the course of the run. But whereas, like, Alden and Ruben really stick out in their production, I feel like Alden. Chris Rabbit is like a part of a tableau with Laurie Metcalfe and Nathan Lane and the whatnot, you know?

[Jeff]

Yeah, we saw it after it opened,

[Richie]

like, a few weeks after we did Becky Shaw.

[Jeff]

No.

[Richie]

Oh, what?

[Jeff]

Death of a Salesman. And that's why maybe we're having a different feeling on him.

[Richie]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, then my track so. So down to the wire. Richie, you're saying Reuben. Jeff, you're saying Christopher Abbott.

[Jeff]

No, Alden.

[Matt Koplik]

You're saying Alden. You're saying Alden, and then I'm saying Alden as well.

[Richie]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

What happens when Brandon J. Dearden wins and everyone's like, well.

[Richie]

Or Danny Bursty?

[Jeff]

No, because when we saw Brandon on here, we were like, okay, I will say.

[Richie]

I will say. I'll give a shout out to Richard Thomas in the Ballsters. He plays this kind of interesting guy, and I'm like, you're playing a character that is a step ahead of everyone at all times and has a. That, like, breakdown, 11 o' clock moment.

[Matt Koplik]

And I'm like, you're good to be

[Jeff]

charming, but you're the villain.

[Richie]

Yeah. You're like, that's hard. And I was like, I don't think he's going to win. But shout out to him. I thought that was great that he was nominated.

[Matt Koplik]

I. I love this category, and this is the only acting category that has six. And I'm like, I'm sorry. They all deserve to be here.

[Richie]

Yeah, yeah, Danny.

[Matt Koplik]

Danny's wonderful. In Marjorie prime, it's not happening. And I don't think it's happening for Richard Thomas either, that that nomination is the win. Same thing for Brandon, who is the only performer in Waiting for Godot that I fully enjoyed. So I'm happy for him. But, yeah, I fucking. I'm gonna say Alden. Okay. Featured actress in the musical. We have Shoshana Bean for the Lost Boys, Hannah Cruz for Chess, Rachel Dratch for Richard o' Brien's the Rocky Horror Show, Ana Gasteyer for Schmigadoon, Nichelle Lewis for Ragtime. I just want to say I feel like I vision boarded Hannah Cruise's nomination. I feel like I might have spearheaded Rachel Dratch's Tony campaign for Rocky Horror. And there were people who were thrown that Rachel was nominated. And I'm like, I'm.

[Richie]

Well, I'm a little thrown. I would love for you to convince me. Only because I love Rachel Dratch. Like, I truly do. Don't get me wrong. I'm just, like, not sure what this role is giving. Like, she's funny. She's the narrator. She's all over the stage. I get it. I just didn't think it was Tony nomination. I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I think for me, once. Once Shu was put in lead, that's when I went, okay, like, I'm. Rachel Dratch is my featured for Rocky Horror. And it's. I think that she and Luke Evans and Shu are probably the only performances that I find fully realized in this production. So that's one thing. She's also the. I hate to, like, you don't want to use the word grounded for Rocky Horror show, but, like, she's the grounded center of that show. She kind of keeps it from going off the rails all the time without ever. For being a wet blanket about it. She. I find her consistently funny. Just every time she was on stage, I was like, unlike the arbiter for Chess, I was like, yay, she's back.

[Richie]

Right? Right. Unlike the arbiter for justice. Yeah, I agree.

[Matt Koplik]

And she's the one who has to deal with the heckling the most. And I understand she had a hard time at the beginning of previews. By the time I saw it, which was like two days before they opened, I thought she had it fully together and figured out how to work it and was. I found her very, very delightful. There are other women who were not nominated who have moments that I know impress, but ultimately there are. They. They had parts that were lacking in Act 1 or Act 2 or. Or whatever. So. I'm happy Dratch is in here. I'm thrilled. Hannah Cruz is in here. My God.

[Richie]

Yeah, she's.

[Matt Koplik]

She owes me a bouquet because I'm telling you, I was. I was vouching for that for like six months.

[Richie]

I love her.

[Jeff]

She walks into this show and she completely steals it. So she totally deserves.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. She's the only one on that stage who you believe has fucked anyone before. Like, for a show that's like allegedly all about how no one can keep their hands off of each other. She comes on, I'm like, oh, someone who's been fucked, like, fantastic. That's a woman who's seen things and done things.

[Richie]

She's amazing in that. And I mean, to me. Well, we didn't say who we were. Do we go say who we haven't said who we.

[Matt Koplik]

Who we think is winning or.

[Richie]

I really think this is Shana Bean. Yeah, I think it's her time. I think this is her.

[Jeff]

I do think she really love a world where Hannah wins.

[Richie]

Right.

[Jeff]

But totally.

[Richie]

I know it's not happening.

[Jeff]

I love a world where she wins,

[Matt Koplik]

but no, I would love it too. And I hope she would thank me and her hair designer, but, like, it's.

[Richie]

I, I, I also think I wasn't really the Anna Cast iron. Yep, I get that. I didn't think that was going to be the nominee of everyone in Schminga Doone.

[Jeff]

Like, I really thought, because, you know, we're big Mackenzie Kurtz.

[Richie]

We love.

[Jeff]

I don't know why she's not.

[Matt Koplik]

I know her character is like non existent in the second act, but Anagasire

[Richie]

is that big 11 o' clock number. Right. And I get it. He blows the roof off the corn pudding. Yeah.

[Jeff]

What a.

[Richie]

And Nichelle Lewis is great at ragtime. I'm not saying Michelle isn't. I just think this is Shoshana's time and it's her win and she's got a few great songs on this and she's the mature woman in that show that kind of carries them. I don't want to say she's carrying the whole show, but in a way she kind of is. And I get just. I. I felt good every time she came on stage. I don't think it's the most perfect role for her, but I think this is definitely, like, her time, and it's her Tony time. I think.

[Matt Koplik]

I think it's down to Shoshana and Ana Gastire, to be perfectly honest, would love Hannah to win. It's not happening, Rachel. It's not happening. Nichelle.

[Jeff]

We can manifest. Manifest Hannah winning.

[Matt Koplik]

We could manifest it. I would love to. I would love to see that happen.

[Richie]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

But I think. And Michelle has it. I think Michelle has a shot as well. I think Michelle would win in sort of like a major sweep for Ragtime. But there's. There's a narrative of, like, what if Ragtime wins all four acting awards, which has only happened once in the entire history of the Tonys, which was South Pacific in 19. Fucking fake 50 or 49.

[Richie]

Isn't that wild?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And. And has never. Has never happened at the Oscars. And so you have to ask yourself, like, are you. When you're a Tony voter and you're thinking about, like, spreading the wealth and. And unless something just is so undeniable, just the most undeniable, you.

[Richie]

You.

[Matt Koplik]

Are you going to sit there and then vote for one show for all the acting when, like, there are other performances you could absolutely, you know, give awards to? And Ragtime has two leading performances that I think think are just going to get it. And I think among between Ben and Michelle, I think Michelle is the most vulnerable in the same way that I think Abbott is the most vulnerable in Salesman. The thing is, between Shoshana and Anna, Anna has campaigned very well and is been doing a really good job. I think Shoshana could win without Lost Boys winning musical. I don't think Anna can win without Shmiga Dune winning musical, which doesn't help

[Jeff]

my argument because I ultimately think Strika tunes, funny music.

[Richie]

Yeah. Yeah. And I. I mean, in a world where Anna.

[Jeff]

Spoiler alert.

[Matt Koplik]

Spoiler alert.

[Richie]

I know I wouldn't know. If I was sitting. Watching Anagaster win over Shoshana Bean, I would be sitting there saying, well, Shoshana Bean is singing a lot more than Anna Gastar. I mean, I would be, like, disappointed for Shoshana in that way, because. And I love Anna's character. I don't think she's doing just what Kristin Chenoweth did in the TV show. Right. I think she's doing her own thing, and I love that. And good for her. And she's done Broadway before, and she knows what she's doing up there, I just. That would be shocking to me if Anna won, and I love her, but

[Matt Koplik]

I think Shoshanna has the benefit of it's her third time. It definitely feels like, oh, we could really give it to her for this, the part. She and Anna actually kind of have similar trajectories with their characters, which is, like, they are more prominent in the second act, or rather, their bigger moments are in the second act, which is important. Shoshana has the larger role. Shoshana also, like, since COVID has really started making a career out of being the, like, normal one in a musical full of wild personalities, whether it's Mr. Saturday Night or Hell's Kitchen or this. And I think that that's been a really fun side to her of, like, these insane vocals and then, like, just the most dropped in actress.

[Richie]

I know.

[Matt Koplik]

Jack F. Did you say yet?

[Jeff]

Oh, I think it's Shauna.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, so you both think it's Shauna, then I'm gonna say Anna, just because I need this podcast to have, like, some balance in case. In case you're wrong or I'm wrong. Both sides of the coin are represented.

[Richie]

Love it.

[Jeff]

I'm Shoshana with I want Hannah. That's my yes. That's my yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, listen, the truth is, like, you guys are MacKenzie Kurtz fans. I loved her in Heather's. If I'm nominating a woman and featured for Schmegadoon, for me, it's Izzy Mich.

[Richie]

But, oh, yeah, she's great too.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I've been banging that drum since the prom. One of these days, they're going to recognize me in the same way that one of these days we're going to give Paul Alexander Nolan a real goddamn role in a real goddamn musical.

[Richie]

Yeah, he's playing a lot of smaller. Like, he needs, like, a more prominent. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He's a good understatement, Richie.

[Richie]

But moving on, you're a big fan.

[Matt Koplik]

I am. Okay, so, Richie, you're all right.

[Richie]

We're going actress in a featured role in a play and actor in a featured role in a musical.

[Matt Koplik]

Great actress in a featured role in a play. Our nominees are Betsy Item for Liberation, Mary Louise Burke for the Ballisters, Aya Cash for Giant, Lori Metcalf and Death of a Salesman. And June Squib for Marjorie Prime. My only note about this category is we had six and featured actor in a play. I needed a tie so we could got six for this category so Cynthia goddamn Nixon could get in for Marjorie Prime. And Then this category would be perfect. Yeah.

[Richie]

And that's a shame that she wasn't nominated for this. I look at this and I say, I don't know. June Squibb being the oldest Tony nomination in history, and she's got the. I mean, I always say everyone's like, who's June Squibb? Like, oh, well, there's amazing things about June Squibb. But did you know she was in the original Broadway cast of Gypsy? And everyone's like, what. What year are we in? And I'm like, no, she was in the original Broadway cast of Gypsy with Ethel Merman. And I think that blows people's minds every time I say that. So I don't know if it's gonna be like, oh, give it to June. Give it to June. But personally, it's Lori Metcalfe's Tony. To me, I think that's just. That's where I sit with this.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I don't think giving it to June Squibb just because she's older than radio is. Is enough.

[Richie]

I don't know. Sometimes the Tony or Academy Award does that sometimes, too. I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, June was also phenomenal in Marge Free Prime. I. I wouldn't be mad, but.

[Jeff]

Yeah, Jeff, I'm also going. Lori Metcalf on this.

[Matt Koplik]

We.

[Jeff]

And also we. We did not get to see Mary Louise Burke in the Actor. She was out for us, so. But the understudy was great.

[Richie]

Yeah. And the character.

[Jeff]

The character's great, but we can't compare it. So that's why I'm.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a great role. Mary Louise Burke does great. Again, it's. I love this category. The only thing keeping it from being perfect is no Cynthia Nixon for me.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I cannot tell you how happy I am that Aya Cash is in here. Adore her and adored her in Giant. Yeah. No, it's. It's Lori.

[Jeff]

Bang, bang, boom.

[Richie]

And one day, I want Betsy to win a Tony Award. I really like her. I just like her. I think she's amazing.

[Matt Koplik]

She's been around, but also, like, we're just getting the ball rolling on her Tony life. Like, this is her second nomination in three years. It's happening, baby, but it's slow.

[Richie]

And what do you think about in this category not having. Oh, my gosh, I'm blanking on her name. We mentioned her, like, an hour ago in Dog Day.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, Jessica Hecht.

[Richie]

Yeah. Is that weird that she wasn't. I was just thinking, yep, that's an instant one for her.

[Matt Koplik]

But no, I'm sleeping fine at night. Knowing. Knowing she wasn't nominated for Dog Day. I like, I like the hecht. I'm a heched head, but, yeah, I like her too.

[Richie]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Dog Day. Dog Day Afternoon is, is cutting off most of those actors at the kneecaps. So, like, anyone who I think could be nominated isn't because the show's no good. Same like, Carry Young is lovely in Proof. But, like, that production of Proof is not great.

[Richie]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I was like, junior year, the first

[Jeff]

thing people said to us, they were like, are you mad about the shutout for Proof? I was like, no.

[Richie]

I mean, like, it was okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Are the people who, asking you, asking you that having, have they seen this proof?

[Jeff]

No.

[Richie]

No, because everyone bases it off of the original production, which was great and yada, yada. And I'm like, great.

[Jeff]

But they'll be like, oh, well, I'm seeing it, like, after Tony's. I was like, well, you don't really need to, but.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, they, they can go and see Adrian Warren. That would be nice.

[Richie]

Oh, yeah, she's going in.

[Matt Koplik]

She's doing a play.

[Jeff]

Interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

It's, it's. It'll be interesting.

[Richie]

I, I, Yeah, I think Lori, Lori's got it. I mean, I would love to see that. I think that's. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry. I had a. For some reason, my brain went to an SNL moment. You know, Sarah Sherman on snl, on Weekend Update, she always is, like, roasting Colin Jost. She has one sketch where she's like a psychic, and she's saying, like, you're rewatching the teleplay from tonight's broadcast. 20 lasts for Michael, four for you. You're improving, but it's slow. In my mind, I just like Betsy Items. Tony rollout. She's improving, but it's slow.

[Richie]

Betsy item. Like, we. I don't know what her next role could be. I wonder if she does musical theater. I don't know if she could do a starring role, leading or instead of supporting or.

[Matt Koplik]

I think if she doesn't win on her third nomination, it's because whatever her third nomination is in is like some play where she doesn't, like, get the monologue or it closed before Tony's. And then it'll be the fourth one, which is like, okay, here, here we go.

[Richie]

Yeah. Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

But, yeah, I think, I think she, for some reason, she's now starting to bubble as this. Like, we're gonna give her one soon. Right. And, and so, yeah, right. Writers, write her something good. Okay. Featured actor in a musical. We have Ali Louis Borsgi. Bors guy in the Lost Boys. Andre de Shields. Angelico Ball. Bryce Pinkham for Chess. Ben Levi Ross for Ragtime. And Leighton Williams for Titanique.

[Jeff]

Yeah, okay.

[Richie]

Oh, this is hard.

[Matt Koplik]

It's difficult. I'm not gonna lie.

[Jeff]

I'm going with the iceberg, bitch.

[Richie]

What a world would it be if Leighton Williams wins this Tony for that? I would love it. I would love it.

[Matt Koplik]

Part of me, similar to people being like, listen, everyone, Everyone. I feel like, you know, Lear's winning because of all these other awards. You know, people like Richie. But then everyone going, but, like, I'd vote for Jellicoe. I'm like, yeah, well, then wouldn't Jellicobal win if that's what everyone's voting for? I keep hearing from people going, like, not gonna lie. Like, Lane Williams really fucking knocked my socks off. I'm gonna vote for that. And so I'm like, could it happen? I know who I would vote for.

[Richie]

And I have.

[Matt Koplik]

I would.

[Richie]

I have Leighton in neck and neck with me for Andre De Shields, only because I think Andre is Andre. And Andre had that incredible Tony speech last time he won, and he's so admired in the industry, and I just. I know his Tony legacy came much later in life for him, and I wonder if the second Tony for him is this time. And he's just commands a space and owns the space, and he's got the respect of the industry and then that show. So to me, it's just between Andre and Leighton. That's just where it sits.

[Matt Koplik]

For me, I think it's between Ben and Leighton. But Andre, I think Andre also is a possibility. I mean, I think Ali, the nomination is the winner. Bryce, God bless him. This is his purple Heart for surviving that book. Yeah.

[Richie]

Yeah. I don't see this for him. And I like Bryce. I actually really like Bryce in, like, Holiday Inn.

[Matt Koplik]

We all like Bryce. I think that's why he's nominated. We love you. Yeah. You had to deal with this. Here's your nomination.

[Richie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jeff]

I've. I'm definitely all the way. Team Layton for this. So I think winning and who I want to win, I mean, I do see a world. Maybe we're Ben, but I don't know. I. I don't think so.

[Matt Koplik]

I think. I think Ben has a. Has a shot. But also, again, it's sort of like the how when you're sitting there with a ballot and you're going like, can I really give Ragtime three acting awards? Like, I think there are some people who think that way. Not. I think they think that way more than they think about, like, box office or touring. They, like, look at it and they go, can I really go? Although I think it's online now, so they can't even look down. It's sort of like each category, it

[Richie]

is an online vote now, I think. Yeah.

[Jeff]

I feel like Ben's performance when it was at City center felt. Felt more authentic and better, and it kind of like left in when it went to Lincoln Center. So I don't know. And, I mean, I'm probably with Richie too, where it goes between Andre and Leighton, but I do feel like Andre winning the last Tony was for a better role than what it is for Cats, so. And I think Leighton really steals a lot of the show. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I think also Covid has really, really people's brains in terms of timeline, because a lot of people go, well, didn't Andre just win? I'm like, that was seven years ago.

[Richie]

I know. Yeah, Covid did throw people off.

[Jeff]

Like, and if we were saying the same thing, then Lori Metcalf would never win another Tony again.

[Matt Koplik]

Literally. Like you, it is faster to go through all of middle school and high school than it's been since Andre de Shields. Last one, a Tony.

[Richie]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Just, you know.

[Richie]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

But, yeah, I think my cynical ass is going with Ben, who, like, is not a bad win. But I agree with you, Jeff. I thought he was strongest at City Center. I felt something got a little lost on Broadway. But he is a talented guy, and I don't think he's bad in the role. I would vote for Leighton. I don't see Andre happening. I think the only way Andre would happen is a combination of he is such a legend, and he is. I think he is good in the show. People go, oh, well, he's just playing Andre. I'm like, okay, well, can you be you on the spot a times a week?

[Richie]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I can't be me right when I'm sleeping. But I think also, like, a vote for Andre is like voting for the company in a. In a way for some voters.

[Richie]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm gonna say Ben is my prediction. Ladies, my vote, though. Leighton is my vote. So if. If I get similar to book, if Leighton wins, I'm gonna get a text from both of you guys, and you're gonna be like, how's your underwear? I'm like, girl, she drenched.

[Richie]

I mean, what an incredible thing for Leighton if that happened. I mean, and that show just, like, especially if you don't know Titanique very well and you don't know the iceberg bit is coming, and Leighton's in the, like, normal sailor suit in the beginning, right? And, like, okay. And then to come out like that in Act 2 and do that number like that, I was like. And I. I was like, oh, my God. Wow.

[Matt Koplik]

Lip sync for your lifeboats is, I think, objectively the best part of the show. And it's such an adrenaline shot because, like, it's not that the show is sagging by that point, but it's a little less. Less bubbly, tight, like, campness. You're like, okay, we're settling in. We're getting to the end, towards the end. And then he just comes in as Tina Turner, and just, like, he's a. He's a sniff of cocaine in human form. And. Oh, God, just so good.

[Richie]

I. I'm obsessed.

[Matt Koplik]

Got a standing ovation the day that I saw it. Okay, very nice.

[Richie]

I love that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Okay, so that's that. Jeff, is it your turn or my turn?

[Jeff]

Oh, did you just do these?

[Richie]

I did. I did, too. No.

[Matt Koplik]

What are we doing? Jeff, it's you. It was me, then Richie. Now it's Jeff. It's you.

[Jeff]

One, two, three.

[Richie]

We have four. Six left.

[Jeff]

Six left. All right, so what do I want? Let's do best play and best performance by an actor in a leading role in a musical.

[Matt Koplik]

Great.

[Jeff]

Okay, which one first? Best play. Let's go best play. First.

[Matt Koplik]

Best play. Okay, whatever you want, daddy. Okay, best play. We have the Ballisters by David Lindsay, Aber, Giant by Mark Rosenblatt, Liberation by Bess Wall, and Little Bear Ridge Road by Samuel D. Hunter.

[Jeff]

Gentlemen, what do you got? I really feel like Liberation is taking this for best play.

[Matt Koplik]

Rachi.

[Richie]

Because of the track record of the Pulitzer Prize, not always winning the Tony for best play, but many times winning. And because of Liberation winning the Pulitzer Prize, I'm going Liberation just because I think that's the root of it. I totally see a world that Giant wins it to, but I just think that I always try to follow the. When I see they announce the Pulitzer Prize, I'm always like, okay, that's nine times out of ten, that's the Tony winner. Usually.

[Matt Koplik]

What's interesting is that there have been a lot of. There have been Pulitzers that did not win play, but I'm realizing now, in retrospect, those have been plays that won the Pulitzer Off Broadway, and then, like, a year or two goes by, and then they go to Broadway, and then they lose Best play.

[Richie]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

This is Liberation is. Is the purpose route where it just Won the Pulitzer right before Tony voting for play.

[Richie]

I think that's where it's going. I do.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. It's. I think. I think that's correct. So I think we now for leading actor performance by leading actor in a musical. We should. It'll take just as long. We have Nick Christopher in chess. Choose, as we like to call it on the podcast. Luke Evans in Richard o' Brien's the Rocky Horror Show. Joshua Henry for Ragtime. Sam Tutti for Two Strangers Carry a Cake Across New York, AKA Across. And then Brandon Uranowitz, Ragtime Richie.

[Richie]

Oh, it's Josh Henry. A thousand percent. And. And with a really close Nicholas Christopher, in my opinion. But I think it's Josh's time. It's Josh's Tony. It's Josh, Josh, Josh.

[Jeff]

It's definitely Josh's Tony. I mean, when I saw Christopher's performance, Nicholas Christopher's performance, I was. Was like, wow. Belcher Face Off. That's amazing. And definitely is giving Joshua a run for his money. But I. Or run for the Tony. But I think Joshua's winning.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I think if anyone doesn't have nervous tummy that night, it's Joshua Henry.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Everyone else is, like, taking nervous poops to the bathroom during commercial breaks. And Josh Henry's like, what's hard? Yeah, it's just.

[Richie]

And shout out to Luke Evans. I think he's pretty cool in that role. And it's just. That's.

[Matt Koplik]

This is. It's a tight five. When. When it was originally four, I was concerned of, like, amongst Nick, Luke, and Brandon, who was going to be left off the ballot because I felt that Salmon and Josh were the only real locks in this category for a long time. And then when they said, oh, well, Andrew Durant is. Is lead. There are going to be five nominees. I'm like, oh, we have our five. Bing, bang, boom.

[Richie]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

Zip, Zap, Zop. Yeah. No.

[Richie]

Oh, it's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's Josh. Okay, so next up. Okay, so we've done all the featured directors. Okay. I think now we just have musical and revival of a musical. Those are our final two.

[Richie]

Oh, we have no actor in a leading role in a play and actress in a leading role in a play.

[Matt Koplik]

How could I forget? Okay, I'm gonna do. I'll do the actors, then I'll do actor in leading role in a play and actress in a leading role in a play. So leading performance by a leading actor in a play. Will Harrison for Punch. Nathan Lane for Death of a Salesman. John Lithgow for Giant. Daniel Radcliffe for every brilliant thing. Mark Strong for Oedipus. Ultimately, this is down to Nathan Lane and John Lithgow.

[Richie]

Totally.

[Matt Koplik]

I think, in a weird way, because I don't predict Giant winning play, that it gives me a stronger case for John Lithgow winning. I think he's the lone win for this show. It is a while Nathan Lane is, you know, doing masterful work in Salesman. Giant is a bit more of a tour de force for Lithgow.

[Richie]

It's just.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like. It's a bit more of a focus on him in a weird way. You know what I mean? In a way that I think that will be impressive for a lot of voters. Doesn't make it necessarily better than what Nathan Lane is doing. But I do think also, once you start racking up certain number of wins, it becomes harder and harder for people to give you another one, as Audra is now learning. So while this will be John Lithgow's third Tony, it would be Nathan Lane's fourth. And so one would ask, like, do I give Nathan Lane a fourth? I don't know. And we'll give John a third.

[Richie]

Yeah, right. It's like, what are we talking?

[Jeff]

What would Lori Metcalfs be third? Third.

[Matt Koplik]

She would. She would be third. Three is an easy number for people to go with.

[Richie]

This is because John. John won the Olivier, I believe, for this role. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

He sure does go.

[Richie]

Yeah, I. I think it's going that way. And it is tight. It is neck and neck for Nathan and him. I just think, you know, talking about what you said earlier about Death of a Salesman getting all. If they're going to just keep giving Death of a Sales and all this stuff, I wonder if that's like. Okay, and we pause here now to kind of give John. Let's go. The Tony. Yeah, I think. I don't know.

[Jeff]

It's one of those things.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Because it. I. I believe with the online voting, I. Now that I'm thinking about it, I do not think you go down a full ballot and then submit. I do think you go category by category. And, yeah, like, I think once you get to. I don't know how. What the order is going to be, but let's say actor in a play is towards the end, if you're voting and you're like, jesus, I just clicked Salesman for, like, five, six. I. I'll go for Lithgow. I'm gonna get.

[Richie]

Think that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you got, Jeff?

[Jeff]

I have Nathan.

[Richie]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Because Jeff believes in the consistency and the vitality of the voters who are like, yes, I will vote for it a ninth time.

[Richie]

Yes. Which there are some of those.

[Jeff]

I do. I. I don't know. There's something about, like, I feel like people are gonna have a hard time, like, not only separating, like, John Lithgow's performance from like, it being Roald Dahl. And like, if they have any, like, anger towards that in the play, they might be like, I'll just go with Nathan on this instead.

[Matt Koplik]

It's true. I mean, every. Basically the only people in this category who don't have, like blood on their hands in terms of what they're working on are Mark Strong and Daniel Radcliffe because, like, even he kills a man in his show.

[Richie]

But yeah, yeah, I don't know if it's the world good for them are getting nominated. I don't, I don't see it. It's just the Nathan and John. And I saw, there was a clip somewhere on Instagram. It was like Nathan and John at like the. What do they do? The breakfast or the lunch when they all get the nominate. And they were like, hey, one of them was like, hey, how's it going? What are we gonna do a play together? I don't know. Let's start. And it was just the most like, you know, two dads on the street corner outside their Elon, like, how's it going? And it was just. That felt good. Like, it doesn't even matter who wins because they're gonna like, do some star studded play in like two or three years on Broadway. I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, yeah, that's what I love about those guys and these things is like, they've been doing this for so long and they both have their awards and they both like, obviously it means stuff, but you get to a certain point in your career at a certain age where you, like, you've had enough success that you're not necessarily worried that people think less of you. And so not winning isn't important anymore. Like, they have enough awards to know that, like, they're good at what they do. And so it's like, yeah, oh, we, we're gonna have a free meal and I'm gonna talk to people and ask them about, like, their show today because I can't go see it. So I'll, I'll ask. I'll ask a question. I love that. Yeah. Yeah.

[Richie]

All right, we're on to actress in a leading role in a play, huh?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, we are. We've got Rose Burn in Fallen Angels, Carrie Coon and Bug. Susannah Flood in Liberation, Leslie Manville in Oedipus, and Kelly o' Hara in Fallen Angels. Of these five, only Kelly and Rose are in an open show right now. So I think it goes to conclusion that we're going to get a performance in a closed show in this category, probably the one this season that we'll have. And I do ultimately think it's Leslie Manville and Oedipus. I think it's the one award that Oedipus really has locked. They could win one or two more. But, like, it's. It is honoring that show. It is a phenomenal performance. She remains on our consciousness from, you know, she's in London right now doing Les Liaisons and saying what she said about people on their phones at curtain call.

[Richie]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And is in, you know, a revival nominee like Rose and Kelly, whereas Carrie Coon is not. And while Susanna Flood was wonderful in Liberation, I think. I do think she actually probably poses the biggest threat to Leslie Manville, weirdly, because there's a world where Liberation wins play and only play, but then there's also a world where it could slightly overperform. And if that were to happen, Susanna Flood could benefit from that.

[Jeff]

Yeah, but. But I think, yeah, I put between Leslie and Kelly o'.

[Richie]

Hara.

[Jeff]

Leslie.

[Matt Koplik]

Interesting.

[Jeff]

Yeah. I completely agree with everything you said about Leslie in there. I don't know. There's something about the comedic timing and acting that's coming from Kelly in this, that it's something that I haven't seen her done in the past, so it

[Matt Koplik]

just stood out for me.

[Jeff]

So I wonder if it's something that might get awarded.

[Richie]

Richie, I'm in the same place because I think Leslie's probably got it, but there's something about Kelly doing that role, and I was like, okay, I've never seen this side of you before. Like, you're working up there a little more than Rose Byrne. I think Rose Byrne was great, but I think if I had to choose between just those two, I would go Kelly in that. And I think. And Carrie's great, and Susanna's great. I mean, this is tough. They were all really great. But something. I do think Leslie's got the edge up on everyone else with. With that role.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a good category. Sorry, I sound like Jim Neglek. It's a good category. What I love about Kelly and Fallen Angels is I feel like with Days of Wine and Roses and this, Kelly's kind of gotten back to a messier place as an actress where I felt post South Pacific. She had gotten a little too refined and rigid. I mean, not bad, but just. I. I'll never forget Kiss Me Kate, where I was just like, why are you not going for the jugular with this? You're so. You're way too safe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I like the Kelly that's doing Fallen Angels. I wish was the Kelly that did Kiss Me Kate, because there's. There's a go for brokenness that she's doing in this show that I applaud, like, and a lack of vanity on both her and Rose Byrne's side that just, like, I'm obsessed with. There's something about, like, really beautiful people having no vanity and allowing themselves to look grotesque sometimes.

[Richie]

Like. Like Rose Byrne's wig at the end of Act 2, and she comes in, and the hair I like was like, oh, yes. You're like, you're. You're a Hollywood star walking on stage in that wig, like, good for you.

[Jeff]

And then, like, Kelly's coming down the

[Matt Koplik]

stairs and, like, falling.

[Richie]

And, like, it was just. And that's just, like, testament to Noel Coward's brilliant writing too. But, I mean, it's just. They were great. I thought they were very enjoyable on that.

[Matt Koplik]

Kelly gets dragged over a couch and onto the floor. Like, face down over a chair and onto the floor.

[Richie]

And the whole, like, lighting the cigarette and moving away with it and that whole bit. I was just thought it was so funny. Funny.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, this production, for me, kind of solely exists for Rose and Kelly to, like, I hate to say, you know, Judd Apatow it out, but, like, you know, like. Like, to Brides made it out, you know.

[Richie]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And they do it. And I think the reason why this revival is as successful as it is is solely because of them. That sad.

[Richie]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Matt Koplik]

I do ultimately think it's Leslie Manville. I just. I. In my gut, I do. I listen, if Kelly. If Kelly won again for this, I think that would be for real.

[Richie]

It would be another, like, comedic win. And when we're talking about things like Schmigadoon and. And Titanique and. And then Fallen Angels, this is like a. This has been a year of, like, the crazy, wild comedy. Although, oh, Mary won a lot last year, and that was a wild comedy, too. To see that win as much for the comedies are, like, there right now.

[Matt Koplik]

I never laughed. I never laughed harder than at the end of Ragtime. So I'm like, casey, Joshua, come get your comedy awards, baby.

[Richie]

At least you didn't say Death of a Salesman, because that is.

[Matt Koplik]

There's nothing funny about young Biff and Death of a Salesman when he shows up in those pants. There's nothing funny about that. That is, that is the face of God that you're looking at. No, I, I do also. I, I think it's Leslie. I think Susanna has a chance to upset. I think, like, yeah, if anyone is not going to upset, is gonna upset Leslie. That's not Susanna. It's Kelly. I think she has more material than Rose. So it was interesting to me when people, like, for nominations, I think Rose is going to get in and not Kelly. And I understood why. Because on a physical level, Rose allowed herself to go so grotesque with the wig and the makeup and all that stuff. But similar to Death becomes her and, you know, war pain, I, I said I and wicked. I was like, I don't know how you nominate one without the other.

[Richie]

I know.

[Matt Koplik]

They succeed off of each other.

[Richie]

Yep, yep.

[Matt Koplik]

And I'll tell you that both of

[Jeff]

them right into Death becomes her Rose Byrne.

[Richie]

Imagine. Wow, what a world that would be

[Matt Koplik]

if, if, if we could, if we could dub Rose Burns singing with like an audio track of, of, of Jennifer Simard. And then Kelly could just do Kelly. I, I, yeah, I would fucking pay for that shit.

[Richie]

I'm just shocked. I meant side note that not this season, but I am just shocked that death becomes her is not like doing more stunt casting or they're just going to be like, we're closing.

[Matt Koplik]

They can't. It's. That show is so hard to stunt cast because the vocal and physical demands are such like, you're not going to get Whitney Levitt to do it.

[Richie]

Right, right, right, right. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Although I'm okay. Ooh, Ooh. Okay, I'm sorry. I don't know why they haven't done this yet, but Kelly Rose and I guess Tracy Chimo need to do a lip sync to tell me Ernest. And Tracy is Christopher Seaver and Kelly is Megan Hilty. Rose is Jennifer Simard. I'm like, I'm sorry, TikTok, where are you at, Kelly? Yeah, come on, girl. I'm helping you out.

[Richie]

Right?

[Jeff]

You heard it here first, right?

[Richie]

Exactly, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Do it for me. Sing for me. Okay, that's as actress in a play. Now we have revival of a musical and best musical.

[Richie]

Yes. We're down to these two.

[Matt Koplik]

Revival of musical. We have cast the Jellicle Ball, Ragtime and Richard o' Brien's the Rocky Horror Show. Clearly Mamma Mia. Is winning.

[Richie]

But and, and just the fact that we, we do we always only have

[Matt Koplik]

three in this category not always. It depends on how many contenders there are. We'll see. Say this again, because it. People have been confused this year. The way that it works is when it is five or fewer contenders, it is three nominees. When it is six to eight contenders, it is four. When it is nine or more, it is five.

[Richie]

So that's why Chess didn't make it in.

[Matt Koplik]

And, yes, so I would need you to tell the children that who listen to your podcast because Reddit, Twitter, which, because I refuse to call it X, And. And Broadway Instagram accounts are all like, I can't believe they removed a slot just so they would nominate Chess. I'm like, no, you need to know how the math works, sweetie.

[Richie]

Yep, yep, yep. Now we know.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, now we know, boys.

[Richie]

What do we got, Jeff?

[Jeff]

Cats. I think the Jellicoe Ball.

[Richie]

I think it's going Cats. The Jellicoe Ball, too. I don't think Ragtime's getting it. I don't.

[Matt Koplik]

I.

[Richie]

It could. It could, but I. I.

[Matt Koplik]

But that's also why I'm not picking Lear as my prediction, because I don't. I could. While I could imagine Bill and Jaylen winning and Cats not winning, I can't imagine a world where Cats wins and Lear wins.

[Richie]

I agree. I agree with that.

[Jeff]

Yeah, totally.

[Richie]

Yeah. And that's why I think. I think the Cats directors with the Cats winning revival just seems. That just seems like a married win right there.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I agree. I agree.

[Jeff]

We had a fun staging of Ragtime put at Lincoln center, but that's all it really was. So I don't understand why it would win. Okay, that's it. I mean, you have to separate, I think, what people like about it as a musical versus, like, what's actually on the stage.

[Matt Koplik]

That's the thing that's kind of been crazy to me is seeing people talk about how they would vote for Ragtime for revival because it's the better musical. And I'm sitting here going, but it's. But it's about. It's called best revival.

[Jeff]

Right? It's not about musical production. People like, let's.

[Matt Koplik]

Lynn and Steve won their Tony already. They can't win another for this revival. This doesn't fall under the classics rule, Right? Like, yeah, they can't win a second one for this. And so you're at. You're talking about the revival. Now, there are some people who genuinely think this is the better revival, and if they vote that way, so be it. But you also have to look at the history of how this category has gone and we talked about this last week. Very, very rarely in the last like 23, 24 years have, have the Tonys given a revival the award when it's like kind of a standard production. When they have there's you. In retrospect, it may seem standard, but at the time it was unique. Like, in retrospect, people would maybe look at South Pacific as a standard revival. That at the time, that's not how it felt at the time it felt like it revitalized a warhorse that people thought couldn't be done anymore. And it was, was on a scale that we hadn't seen in years. And so that was that, that was,

[Richie]

that was setting the stage for the golden age revivals in 2007, 2008, whatever that was. That was, yeah, South Pacific. I was like, my gosh, I feel like I'm jumped 50 years back in this gorgeous. Yeah, yeah. And I, I, I get that.

[Matt Koplik]

And then, and then you have something like hello Dolly, which you could look at as kind of standard, but that also, like, very lavish, was a show that was needed in that time as an antidote for our sadness, for our cynicism. Major candy colored Golden Age revival. And also hello Dolly, not to knock it, but like, it was up against Miss Saigon, which, like, no one thought much of that revival other than Eva. And then Falsettos, which had long closed. And for a while people thought Falsettos might put up a fight. And then it, ultimately, it could not beat the Scott Rudin machine.

[Richie]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

But in the past, usually you're looking at something like a Sunset Boulevard. You're looking at a Marian Elliott Company. You're looking at Woklahoma, where, where it's.

[Richie]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which that's not a dig. That's what people call it.

[Richie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Is, is good. But like, even like once on this island, that was a very different interpretation of that show. While also not being disrespectful of the material itself. I think that sometimes you can swing a little too close to the sun and that can go against you. But I don't think anyone's feeling that way about Jellicle Ball. Everyone's genuinely finding it to be a revitalizing revival and more importantly, a genuine revival.

[Richie]

Right. And is that where your, Was that what your vote would be, Cats?

[Matt Koplik]

No, I'm voting for Mamma Mia. No, it's, it's, it's. I would vote for, I would vote for Jellicle Ball, but it's not. Even again, when we're doing these predictions, I only go with What I would vote for when I'm so at a loss and I don't know where to turn and I'm like, let me just go with my personal choice and maybe that'll be win for. Otherwise, I'm genuinely trying to think of history, precedent, narrative, and just the energy I've been hearing. And I. I don't know about you guys. Like, I just keep hearing from everyone, I would vote for Jellicobal.

[Richie]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And as you said, Richie, like, it's can sometimes be with a caveat of, like, well, I think Ragtime's probably going to win, but, like, I'm voting for Jellicobal. Like, I haven't heard anyone say, I think Jellicobal is winning. So I'm voting for Ragtime.

[Richie]

Right, right, right. And then poor Rocky Horror doesn't get really mentioned here, but I mean, she's

[Matt Koplik]

the Carrie Coon of the table.

[Richie]

Poor.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, I mean, one's the other one. So say what?

[Jeff]

I probably would vote for Rocky Horror second over the Ragtime production.

[Matt Koplik]

So I don't think I would. I. Ragtime, I think maybe is a little less of an interesting production than Rocky Horror, but I think it. It clears years. It's far more what I give Rakuhara a lot of credit for, especially dots is like, way to introduce Party City and not have it be a dig, you know?

[Richie]

Oh, are we also speaking of Party City, are we talking about those Dracula costumes in Act 2 of Lost Boys?

[Matt Koplik]

No, we're not. No, we're not. We were having a really nice time.

[Richie]

Or the superhero costumes in Act 2?

[Matt Koplik]

We were having such a nice time. It's about to be Pride, and I really don't want to be homophobic yet.

[Richie]

I just don't understand. I'll Never understand Act 2 of the Lost Boys, but can we be homophobic?

[Jeff]

Homophobic?

[Matt Koplik]

Did you ask if you can be homophobic, Jeff? Absolutely. Have you not met Ryan Murphy? Gay white men can be homophobic all the time. Finally, we have Best Musical. Gentlemen, we have the Lost Boys. Schmigadoon Titanique. And across. What is our winner here?

[Richie]

I.

[Jeff]

Okay, so I feel like when Schmegadoon was limited, I was like, okay, it's no, not winning Best Musical. And then as soon as they extended, I said, the game has completely changed now, and I'm in a world that Schmegadoon is winning.

[Matt Koplik]

Can you say that again, like a reality show host? The game has changed. The game has completely changed.

[Jeff]

Has completely changed. Yeah, I definitely think Schmegadoon is Winning. If the Act 2 of Lost Boys had the same momentum as Act 1, I would have said easily Lost Boys was going to win, but I just think it fell flat in act two. So yeah, yeah. Schminga Dune's my, my win here.

[Richie]

I, I think Schminga Dune too. I think it's, it's tight, it's tough. I do. If I see that Lost Boys wins, I might be like, okay, not shocked. I kind of could see maybe it just kind of drift in that way by a couple votes. But in my gut's telling me Schmingadoon. I just think we're going that way. I think when's the last time we've seen a with a Golden age feel win best musical? It's been a while. We've had a lot of folk shows, pop shows, jazzy shows, but to have that orchestral golden age look and feel, even though it's spoofy, I think is also a love letter to that time too. And I think people might just want something fresh and different like this for the best musical win. So I see it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I think the last time we had a show win best Musical that had maybe like a classical edge to it was Gentleman's of guide.

[Richie]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Similar to Schmigadun. That's like a classical style with a modern edge to it. And I think that while I can't always say that Schminga Doon was laugh out loud funny for me, I did find it clever frequently. And there's something to be said for that. And I think that's something that a lot of voters also go for is they, they do enjoy the clever of it all. Yeah, I, I, I think the last time I did like a semi prediction, I was like, I guess it's down to Schmigadoon, Lost Boys and Two Strangers at this point. I really just think the Two Strangers is out of the game. To the point that as we're finishing this recording, I'm not sure how much I believe anymore that they're winning score.

[Richie]

Yeah. And I don't even know if they win much. And then maybe they just announce a closure. I think they really pushed through to get to this moment because they could have closed and they didn't and so,

[Jeff]

but are they making the money that they need to, to run that show?

[Richie]

Probably. I mean it's got about, it's, it's,

[Matt Koplik]

they have one of the lowest running costs on Broadway right now. I think it costs about 500k, maybe 450 a week to run and they've been maintaining that, but they have not been overflowing with surplus. And so. And I. And what's interesting is I think they were hoping for a maybe Happy Ending Gentleman's Guide narrative of, well, you know, we're struggling now, but once the nominations come through, we're going to win. And. And that's going to. The nominations haven't really boosted their sales in the way that I think they were hoping. I mean, I don't think any of the best musical nominees right now are setting the box office on fire. Shmiga, Dune and Lost Boys definitely have had the biggest boon. Titanique is. Is improving a bit. But yeah, two strangers, like, I don't know. It's just. It hasn't had the critical love that Gentleman's Guide and maybe Happy Ending had and it doesn't have the undeniable. We're the one identity that they had when it comes to the nomination. The nominees. So I feel like there. There's. There feels to be less of a duty by voters to vote for it. It also. And I. This may sound like a conspiracy, but it does. It is a West End transfer and we have not had a British transfer win best musical since Billy Elliot, which was 17 years ago.

[Richie]

Wow, wow, wow.

[Matt Koplik]

It's been a long time we haven't had. And I think the last one before Billy Elliot to win from was Phantom Feels Sunset.

[Richie]

Sunset. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So we're looking 14 and 17.

[Richie]

Right.

[Jeff]

I'm sure you have a big contender next year, next season. West End.

[Matt Koplik]

He's a. I think we have a tiny contender with a big old heart

[Richie]

and a big old jar of marmalade. I. Next year is. Look, I mean, we could do a whole nother episode on that, but I mean, revivals alone.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I believe you two have a podcast where at the beginning of the season, you look ahead at the season and saying someone hasn't been asked back.

[Richie]

You're gonna. Well, August. We usually do that around August. So we're gonna be getting.

[Matt Koplik]

Clearly, I. I guess I offended the ladies of the house since I haven't been asked back in almost two years.

[Richie]

You're gonna come over to our Pond and Half Hour World and we'll do a little pre. It's in interesting because usually there's always one or two shows that are like, now we start the next Tony season in July and August. And other than that one show where they're like reading stories at the.

[Jeff]

Well, no, they just announced Paranormal Activity.

[Richie]

Oh, Paranormal Activity will be August. Right. But there was this. What's this?

[Jeff]

At the celebrity.

[Richie]

The celebrity. I don't know what that is. Yeah. I'm like, am I not even really the celebrity thing? Yeah, but like usually we've had like Gray House started in the summer and Call Me Izzy started in the summer. There was like always. There's not really that right now. So other than paranormal activities.

[Matt Koplik]

So yeah, Come Easy did start previews like in the middle of Tony season. That was kind of wild of them. I forgot about that. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't forget that much because I, I think I talked about at one point. But yeah, I, I remember the cottage. I was like at a Tony like I was like at a Tony party and then went from there to see Call Me Izzy. And that's not a show you want to see after two drinks.

[Richie]

Oh my God. And with something like Jean Smart, you have to kind of probably put it on Broadway when she's not filming or whatever. You know, they have to work around all these schedules. I got that.

[Matt Koplik]

Jean Smart can do whatever the she wants. I just wish she bit. She picked a better play.

[Richie]

That's, I know.

[Matt Koplik]

That's all. But listen, speak. Speaking of women I love who should pick better players? Julia, we Dreyfus. You're really going to make your Broadway debut in other desert cities. Do it in the goddamn the goat. I mean that is so Selena Meyer co coated. You could the freak out. You get to have. My God.

[Richie]

I know, I know.

[Matt Koplik]

I need to tell all these women what to do. It's, it's and you can put that on a T shirt.

[Jeff]

New job for you.

[Richie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Gentlemen, what are we most looking forward to in this ceremony? Is there a performance we're really looking forward to seeing? Is, are we excited to hear what Pink has to say? Sure.

[Richie]

I, I, I find seeing the original

[Jeff]

cast of the Book of Mormon back on stage.

[Richie]

Yeah. Because that's coming. I mean I, I will, I will say first of all, I find it odd. Maybe I'm just living under a rock. I haven't seen much like Pink promo, like photos, video reels of like watch the Tonys. I mean we're only two weeks out at this point.

[Matt Koplik]

But maybe because she's too busy making sure it's a good show to go on TikTok and do a viral dance. She's like, I am sitting with my writers and I'm making sure that opening slaps. I don't know.

[Richie]

I mean I feel like, you know what we've been seeing with Schmigadoon and Cats and stuff on the Good morning, Americas and the views and all that. I feel like that's just what we're going to basically see. We're not getting the like Audra moment and the Nicole moment. Really this season we're getting ensemble work. There's a lot of ensemble based production numbers. Other than Two Strangers, which is literally two people.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, it is the whole ensemble.

[Richie]

Yeah, that is true. So I feel like, I don't know, I'm just looking forward to the whole night in general. There's not one specific thing. This season is just all over the place in terms of style. And so I'm like, all right, let's just see what happens.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, I say I'm most excited to see what Titanique does. I'm most intrigued to see what Lost Boys does. I'm like every other show I can think of at least two options. And Lost Boys, I'm just sort of going, what are they gonna do?

[Richie]

Yeah, I. I know. I don't know. I mean, and then it's.

[Jeff]

And how does it fit the mold for tv? Like you go, what? Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

That's the thing that a lot of these shows don't think about is it's not just what works out of context from your show, but fit the medium of television. And how are you going to stage in a way that does? Because I think the best Tony performances. Think about that. The Hadestown performance was very much edited and staged for the cameras.

[Jeff]

Yeah.

[Richie]

And then you wonder, like, will Marla do a whole, like, improv bit with the audience as Selene and do a whole thing? I mean, there's probably gonna be something like that. Like, I'm thinking, you know, Ragtime could just do the whole opening. That's what they've done in the past. That's usually a get everybody on stage in a moment moment. But I don't know. I mean, Shmiga Dune could just do one of their top dance numbers, tap numbers. I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, watch Megadoon do Max's number.

[Richie]

Like just the whole Max.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's all of Max's number. Now watch them do Sarah Chase singing about vagina. That's going to be the song that they do. No, Ragtime, I imagine, is doing. They're either doing the opening or they're gonna do Till we reach that Day. I'm gonna assume the opening. Opening and. And probably the same cut of the opening that they did in 98 because it's a very.

[Richie]

Well, I do like that cut. Yeah. And that's a nice clip from that

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I guess it gets the job. I mean, listen, once on this island did the almost the exact same cut of Mama Will Provide that they did in 91. Because they're like, why mess with perfection? They figured it out.

[Richie]

Yep, yep, yep. Yeah, I'm curious too. It'll be interesting. And what stars, you know, what they. You know,

[Jeff]

I think we'll be getting like an appearance from like Meg Stalter because she's going to be an old Mary. And I also petition now for her to host the Tonys next year. Let's get the prettiest girl in America to do that. And it will be funny, but.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, she's got a whole year to get 35 more famous. That's all I gotta say.

[Jeff]

They're like, who is she?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, because she's like, she's on the. She's become becoming. She's extremely famous for the niche crowd and she's becoming famous for mainstream, but she's not quite there yet. So I'm like, listen, Cynthia Erivo, we all know the reason why she got to host last year is because she was riding off of Wicked, which was one of the biggest movies of the year. If Wicked had done like a third of that business, she would not have been asked to host the Tonys.

[Richie]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

So Megan, Megan Stalter just needs a Wicked now. Tomorrow.

[Richie]

I think it's completely coming. You never know.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a coming. Gentlemen, this has been delightful. Where can people find you if you want them to find you at half

[Jeff]

hour podcast, you can find us on the Broadway podcast network and on Instagram, Spotify.

[Richie]

Yeah, all. But yeah, just at half hour podcast.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. I mean, that's pretty standard. Pretty simple. Guys, if you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram only at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. Give the podcast a nice five star rating or review on Apple Podcasts. Five star rating rating on Spotify. We also have a substack. We have a discord. Guess what? I'm not promoting another live show because we just did the last one for a while. So congrats. You're not going to hear me pedaling my lame ass about that for a while. But those of you who did come, we really appreciate. Can you believe I went fully nude. When you got a body like this? Why? Why not show it off? So yeah, yeah, boys, as you know, we close out with a diva every episode. Who do you want to close out with tonight?

[Richie]

Oh, I think I chose last time.

[Jeff]

No, I did.

[Richie]

That's my turn again.

[Jeff]

I picked Mackenzie Kurtz.

[Matt Koplik]

Right.

[Richie]

Oh, didn't you?

[Jeff]

Well, you did. I did.

[Richie]

In honor of. I'm looking behind me in honor of Dreamgirls here coming to Broadway. Let's go. Jennifer Holiday.

[Matt Koplik]

Jennifer Holiday. Fantastic. Jennifer Holiday singing Edelweiss.

[Jeff]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

He imagined Jennifer Holiday singing.

[Richie]

Yeah, that would be a loud version of that song, man.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, great. We'll do that. Okay, so we'll see you guys in a few days. Enjoy the Tony Awards. We're going to record our reactions to that almost immediately afterwards. Competing episodes, I'm sure.

[Richie]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So, you know, you can listen to Jeff and Richie first. They're going to be half hour and then you can listen to me. I'm.

[Jeff]

I'm.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm the big cheese after that.

[Richie]

Yes, yes, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, you're the amuse bouche. Okay, so that's it. Take it away, Ms. Holliday. Bye. Were his days a little dull? Were his nights a little wild? Did I overstate my plan? Did I stress the.