A (2:34)

That's a lot.

B (2:34)

I know. That's why we're here today. So.

A (2:36)

Well, well, it is a joke in the show. We're about to talk about the changing of names because, Bobby, baby, what musical are we covering today?

B (2:45)

We are covering A Chorus Line.

A (2:48)

Ever heard of her? The. The biggest Off Broadway to Broadway transfer until probably Rent and then Hamilton after that. Robert, what is your history with acl?

B (3:02)

ACL means so much to me. I think over the years, I've seen it countless times. It's a little wild because I'm definitely a strong mover. I'm not a dancer, and yet this is one of my favorite musicals of all time. Sure. And it was definitely championed by my grandma, my nanny, who took me to see A Chorus Line at the Paper mill Playhouse in 2001. I think I was 10. So, you know, when you're a budding musical theater kid, you fall in love with the cast album and then you see the show. And most of the time, at least for me, when you're starting out, you're expecting to just be dazzled. And I think seeing A Chorus Line at such a young age was wild because it's so bare bones until the very end, you know, when they do, like, the big. The big production number. And so it was. It just stuck in my mind. It was so different. And then over the years, when I saw it, I fell even more in love with it. And now I really get it. And I can relate to it on so many levels. So it has a special place in my heart just because of my grandma and then my now wife. What?

A (3:59)

Matt? What? Oh, he's married my mom. Sorry about it, everybody. Yeah, he's got the hardware and everything.

B (4:05)

Sorry, guys. It's here. It's locked down. She. She's been in A Chorus Line a bunch of times, and so I became a super fan. I saw it every time she was in it. I've had friends that have done it, and it means so much to us that actually at our wedding, we played what I Did for Love on the piano as we were coming out. Yeah. So it was.

A (4:21)

Oh, God, I don't think I'm going to like you. I don't think I'm going to like you by the end of this episode.

B (4:26)

Is it too much? Is it too much?

A (4:27)

No, it's fine. It's great. First of all, it's your wedding. I wasn't there.

B (4:30)

Who cares?

A (4:31)

I mean, I know when I get married, when I get married to myself, because Lord knows it's never going to be anybody. At this point. I want, like, the stupidest Broadway song played. Like my girlfriend who lives in Canada or something like that. Yeah. Just. Just to screw with people. Yeah. No, that's great. I love that. Who has your wife played in Chorus Line? Okay.

B (4:53)

And then by the end of this, I would like an invitation to your wedding to yourself. And I think I'm gonna earn it, and I think I'm gonna win you over. But my wife, she played Val, so, you know, super fun to see her do that. And what I think I love most about the show in general is just the songs are so, like, story driven. And so seeing her do that every night was kind of wild. Especially when I sat next to her dad and she's singing about her tits in her ass, you know, but yeah.

A (5:16)

Yeah, well, she's an actress that her character's singing about tits and dance. True, true, true, true. It's so interesting you mentioned that about the score, because in my research, you know, I read through a bunch of on the Line and the Michael Bennett books, and I, you know, did other research and stuff like that. When the show opens, like, the show opened at the Public, and we'll talk a bit about the history in a bit. You know, the reviews were ecstatic, but they all were kind of like basically saying that what made it so great was the feeling you got from it and, you know, Michael Bennett's work of the staging and the. And the dancing and that the performances as a ensemble were so stellar, but they're all like, you know, the score is fine. It's not like a score you can necessarily hum, but it's like it gets the job done. And then when it transferred to Broadway and the critics had to see it again, and it opened In July, in 1975, like, it was a two, three week break in between, like I mentioned, on a few other episodes, we had shows that, you know, transferred very quickly. Rent was like a month from New York Theater Workshop to the Nederlander Chorus Line was like two weeks. And they couldn't print the reviews when it opened because there was a newspaper strike, I think, and I think even a musician strike. But the critics finally were able to print the reviews in September, and they all, for the Broadway run were like, you know, we. I kind of slept on the score at the Public, but, like, on a second listen and listening to cast recording, I gotta say, like, this score slaps and it's like really complex and story driven. I'm like, yeah, the score is incredible, but it's not a score that draws attention to itself. The whole show is just like one big. I don't want to say machine, because that sounds so clinical and cynical, but, you know, it's like it. It's so hard to pick things apart because it all just kind of comes together as a. As a unit and that's partly because of how it was developed, which we'll also talk about. I mean, I'm assuming you know a bit about the developmental process of Chorus Line.

B (7:14)

I was there. No, I took copious notes, and I did. I did a whole deep dive of research, and I was surprised at how much I kind of knew already. But it is such an interesting story, and I think you kind of hit the nail on the head with it's just like a musical ride. And I think, too, that's why it's hard to kind of pick out individual songs, even with the montages.

A (7:33)

And.

B (7:33)

And by the end of it, I was listening to the score again, the soundtrack. Like, one of the newer ones had a karaoke bonus track, and I was listening to one, and I was kind of surprised at how many songs from the whole show are actually, like, dabbled into one. So the one is, like, the true culmination of having all the music all together. And it flows so well, I think, like, you're saying, because it is that. That ride. But, yeah, I've got a lot of fun facts about the. The start of it. As do I. Was. Was brought together by Michael Bennett. We should compare notes.

A (8:05)

We should compare notes. Before we get to the notes, though, Robert, for anyone who's as. Who is as I like to call my listeners, an uncultured fuck. What is A Chorus Line about?

B (8:18)

I was thinking about this, and I know you already hate me, so you're gonna hate me even more because I am just a cheese ball. But I think it.

A (8:26)

I didn't say that I hate you. I said, I'm probably just not gonna like you by the end of this. Or did I say hate? I don't remember. That was 10 minutes ago. I was a different person then. Bobby. I know.

B (8:33)

I know it was a joke, and I know you're. I know you love it.

A (8:36)

How dare you. I've never joked a day in my life. I am super serial. I am the Al Gore of Broadway podcasts.

B (8:42)

He's gonna bling up a sign that says, I love you, Robert. And I know it's the truth. I think this show just. It boils down to being about love. I mean, it's a love story, I think, to anybody with a dream, obviously to artists and dancers. But, you know, I guess for anybody who's uncultured out there and doesn't know, the logline would be. It's a group of dancers at an open call in New York City vying to book the gig. And as the story unfolds, you Learn more and more about each person. It's not your typical audition scenario.

A (9:13)

Well, it's more psychotic than that. It's not that they just, like, reveal themselves. They are told to reveal themselves. The final 17 that make it to the final callback cut, they're on the line, literally. And the director, choreographer Zach, says to them, I want to hear more about your life. Tell me about you. Because he says, I've got, you know, it's going to be a ensemble of four and four. Four boys, four girls. To which Sheila Bryant asks such an iconic line. No, they don't need any women.

B (9:42)

Need any women.

A (9:43)

Yeah, yeah. And he said, you know, they're gonna. There's gonna be a lot of dancing in the show, but I know they're also going to be. There's going to be some scene work. And it's not about necessarily if you can act. It's about who you are. I want to see your personality. I want to see what you bring to the table, which on paper, I get, because you want to know sort of who you're going to be spending the next year of your life with. And also, if it's a show that's sort of in development, it's not about who can read the lines the best. It's who can bring ideas and energy to the table, who can contribute, not just take, you know, dictation, which I appreciate what Zach does is a little more psychotic because he really pushes these people to reveal some of their really harshest, most vulnerable truths and dangles the opportunity of employment over their heads to get them to do it. I love it. It's great.

B (10:33)

Yeah, it's a great story. But I wonder if it was being developed today, because obviously.

A (10:37)

Oh, Actors Equity would be all over it today. Yeah, yeah.

B (10:40)

I mean, he would be dubbed a toxic director, especially because Michael is so parallel to Zach and the things that he did when they. Developing the show. I mean, you. You can't really put people through that emotionally, but we do reap the benefits as an audience.

A (10:52)

So Michael Bennett is interesting to me in the same. So he falls in line with Bob Fosse and Jerome Robbins of these director choreographers who were geniuses, like true geniuses, in a way that I don't think we have many currently. The problem with genius is that it can also lead to a bit of madness, because it's something. It's people who are so incredible who have this innate sense of what they do. And part of your brain kind of has to be broken for that other part to shine so brightly. And I've also always said, like, to be in the arts, to tell stories of mankind, you do have to be a tiny bit of a sociopath. Just because you are bottling the human experience into a two and a half hour packaged product and, and, you know, trying to find truth in it. But in order to find truth, you kind of have to steal from your life, from other people's lives. And you're kind of trying to make something packaged feel organic. And if you're an actor, you have to kind of channel those emotions eight times a week. And in order to do that and protect yourself, like a little part of you has to compartmentalize. It's a whole process.

B (12:00)

Now, Michael Bennett, puppet mastering, being a master in a lot of ways.

A (12:04)

And some of the best directors have been able to get their actors there in a very safe, cathartic way. People like George C. Wolfe, Nicholas Heitner, you know, Bart Sher, we hear stories about how. And Joe Mantello, people who are actors, directors who create a safe environment for actors to fail to be vulnerable and figure out how to get the results that we need without, you know, causing more damage to them. Michael Bennett, Jerome Robbins and Bob Fosse did not have higher education. They did not go to college, they did not go to acting school. They did not have the vocabulary to get the results they needed. They just knew what it was they wanted. And so they would do these really awful, harsh and manipulative power plays to get out of their actors what they needed. Jerome Robbins was the ultimate, cruelest. Because Jerome Robbins never said what it was he wanted. He would just make you do it over and over again and many different ways until you did what he wanted. Fosse knew exactly what he wanted and basically would drive you crazy until you did it down to the minutiae. Very David Venture. Michael Bennett knew what he wanted, he didn't know how to get it. So he would say what he would want and then he would do these psychological games of people to get them emotionally there because he. None of them knew how to like do Stanislavski or Alexander Technique. They didn't know any of that shit. To get the actors there in a healthy way. Yeah, so that's, it's, that's sort of the interesting thing with Bennett, in addition to his connection to Zach.

B (13:32)

But yeah, there's so many stories about that too. Throughout the rehearsal process of these things. It was interesting to read that he did to get people's reaction from. I mean, I don't want to jump.

A (13:41)

Ahead but there's no structure here, Robert.

B (13:45)

In that case.

A (13:45)

Here we go. Here we go.

B (13:47)

I was, ooh, I'm swimming in the pool. He's. He apparently, at one rehearsal just like, pretended to fall and break his knee and, like, cry. And everyone's reaction he, like, mentally recorded. And that was how he got the moment with Paul. That's in the show, which I thought was wild and so manipulative. But then you're. I'm reading up on him, and I don't know if it's just a public interview situation where he's saying what he thinks he should say, but he is quoted as saying, the nicest thing any creative can do in an audition is be businesslike and not raise any hopes and let the candidate walk away with their dignity. And I kind of laughed at that because maybe he was being snarky. I don't know. That's not the exact quote. But maybe he just didn't have a firm grasp of what he. His morals and what he thought was okay. And he's just so technical about it that he thought manipulating people in this very specific manner was artistic and fine.

A (14:42)

Yeah, he's. There's a difference between what he says and what he does. Like.

B (14:47)

Yeah.

A (14:47)

So, like with Fosse, for example, I mean, say what you will about the man, he was very self aware and he knew he was awful. And you could argue there's like an extra negative component to that. It's like, well, if you know, why don't you change it? And I think he tried. He was just so damaged, but he was. He had no fantasies that he was actually misunderstood. He's like, no, I'm a dick. He's like, and I wish that I weren't. I try not to be, but I always end up being a dick. He's like, that's just who I am. If you want to know more, you can watch all that jazz. Michael Bennett always kind of thought that he was sort of this impish boy, misunderstood, like he. In his biography, in interviews about him, people always say, like, you know, Michael always just kind of thought of himself still as a chorus kid, even when he became Michael Bennett. And he always kind of grappled with that authority because he wanted to prove himself, he wanted to do stuff, he wanted to make something of himself. And he had these visions, but he also didn't want to be, like, the person in charge all the time. He just wanted everyone to kind of, like, be along for the ride with him, which is not really how it goes once you get you know, command of the ship. It's up to you. And you kind of have to step your booty up. And he did, but, like, in a really messy way. That left a lot of carnage.

B (16:00)

No, he steered that into really choppy waters. And I want to point out, Matt, that I think you just created a great title. You might laugh at me. A great title for like a biopic about Michael Bennett. A chorus kid.

A (16:11)

A chorus kid. There you go.

B (16:12)

I mean that.

A (16:13)

There we go. Ryan Murphy. You hearing me? You hearing me? Because you know he's doing that.

B (16:17)

I know I have that in my notes. I'm like, what do we want to dive into that? What's the update?

A (16:20)

What's going on? Because no one knows what's going on with that shit. He, like, I think it's supposed to be both the show, but also, like, the. The creation of the show, which let's. We can talk about the creation of the shoe. So, like, the basic idea came from Michael Bennett, and the truth is no one really knows when the idea came. Is speaking. You were talking about, like, in an interview, Bennett said, like, what it sounds like he should say. And that's true of Chorus Line as well. When the show opened, he would say in a lot of interviews that he came up with the idea while watching the Watergate hearings. And he's like, I was just so sick of all these lies. And I wanted a show about truth. And. And it's like, been documented that he was. Had an idea for this show even before then. So he's just totally full of it.

B (17:04)

I don't know if you. The parallel. The two. Their names are escaping me, but there were also two dancers on Broadway simultaneously over the years who wanted to form their own troop and start their own.

A (17:15)

So. Yeah, so we will get to them. Yeah.

B (17:16)

Oh, okay.

A (17:17)

But so I don't know if you read the book. Everything was possible. By God. What's his face?

B (17:23)

Ted Chapin musical.

A (17:25)

No, I wish. It's about Follies. It's not the creation of Follies, but.

B (17:29)

I'm gonna write it down and I'm gonna read it now.

A (17:32)

Absolutely, read it. It's one of the best. I don't. I mean, I don't know how familiar you are with Follies, but it's just an incredible book. Definitely one of the best backstage musical books of all time. Anyway, because Michael Bennett choreographed Follies and co directed it with Hal Prince. That was his first Broadway directing credit. And it was the show that sort of broke him up with Hal because They had done Company together and it worked out so well. And then Follies really was a fight between them because. And it's important to talk about Follies because it ties to Chorus Line. Bennett wanted Follies to be a big success because his only real big success pre Follies was Promises Promises, where he, you know, made a name for himself finally doing that show because he had sort of made a name for himself in the 60s, breaking out of the chorus and doing these dances for musicals that were. The musicals were bad, but his dances were good. So he would constantly get Tony nominated for flops. And everyone's like, it's just a matter of time. It's a matter of time before Bennett, like, breaks into something great. And he does Promises, Promises with Donna heading, you know, Turkey Lurkey, Time in Bay or Gleesed, also in that. And Carol Bishop, AKA Kelly Bishop. And that was, you know, he finally had a hit. He had a name for himself. He took over the reins of Coco and all these other things. But with Follies, he really wanted to do something groundbreaking, but also crowd pleasing. And Hal Prince was like, I couldn't give two shits about the audience. I want to do what I want. Michael Bennett's like, there are people paying money out there. We need to, like, think of them. And so he wanted the Follies to be lighter and make more sense. And Hal Prince was like, never. It's a Broadway Fellini fever dream. And I love Follies.

B (19:01)

Think of them finally.

A (19:03)

Yeah, I love. I love Follies. But, like, it has its issues. But in. In the book, Ted Chapin talks about how. Because that show, huge, like, cast of 50 and, like, chorus kids who, you know, they would be, you know, work to death one day and then not do anything the next day. Because sometimes they'd be ghosts, sometimes they'd be dancing. And sometimes Hal Prince was like, I just want to work with the old people today. And so there was, like, one day. It's in the book. So this is like February or March of 1971, and the chorus kids are just, like, sitting around doing absolutely nothing while Hal Prince is, like, working on Waiting for the Girls Upstairs or something. And. And Michael Bennett sees them and just very nonchalantly says, don't worry, one day I'm going to create a musical about all of you. And Bob Avian, his associate, said the same thing that, like, you know, even back from, like, Promises, Promises Days, he, like, had this idea for a musical about the chorus. So the Watergate stuff is bullshit. But no one knows exactly when the idea came. Uh, you bring up the two dancers who wanted to do something. That was Michonne Peacock and Tony Stevens. They had just. Yes, Tony Stevens was a dancer who wanted to become a choreographer. He had choreographed a Broadway flop that closed before opening night called Rachel Lily Rosenblum. And don't forget. Don't you forget it.

B (20:15)

I read it as Rachel Bloom when I first read it, and I was like, she was around back then.

A (20:19)

Rachel Bloom is Evergreen. She sleeps in the cocoon of Vaseline. That's how she looks so good.

B (20:25)

Listen.

A (20:26)

Yeah, it's one of those infamous shows that it never made its opening night at the Broadhurst Theater. Like, everyone was high on poppers and. And it starred Ellen Green, so that's fun. You can see the poster at Joe Allen's. But it was just Michonne Peacock was the ensemble. Tony Stevens choreographed it. And it was just, like, such a disaster for everybody that it was a relief when it closed. And the night it closed, Peacock and Stevens went to a bar, got very drunk, and, like, we gotta take control of our lives. Because, like, the people in charge don't know what they're doing anymore. Because you can't just wait around for when Sondheim and Hell Prince are gonna do the next musical. Like, we can't just rely on them. Everyone else in this business doesn't know what they're doing. So they decided to come up with a dance troupe, a company that would create works like dance pieces, maybe like musicals, too, but definitely dance focused. And they came up with a list of people in the business who they thought would be interested. Interested. And they reached out to Michael Bennett to put him on, like, the board. And the very first day, they did the troupe just to sort of, like, try things out. It was just gonna be like a dance class, and everyone's there, and all of a sudden, in walks Michael Bennett and Donna McKechnie, and everyone's like, oh, what's this about? Exactly. And then Tony Stevens and Sean Peacock are like, we thought it was just gonna be a dance class. But then, like, we do, like, an hour or so of that, Michael and Donna show up. And then Michael whips out a tape recorder. He goes, so let's sit in a circle, drink some wine, and talk about our lives.

B (21:47)

Yes. So I read that this was actually at midnight. This started. Yeah, midnight at this exercise center in New York. I think it was, like, January 26, 1974. Just to set the scene. Not that I'm reading it specifically.

A (22:01)

January 1974.

B (22:03)

And could you, like, okay, there's wine, it's midnight. You're with these prolific people, and then you're just talking for hours. I mean, that's in itself quite a manipulation, in my opinion. Even if you don't know what you're doing, quote, unquote.

A (22:18)

Yeah, well, it's. It's. It was. It was the. Late at night. I think everyone had just finished their shows. I'm not sure, like, what time of day, what day of the week it was. I want to say it was like a Saturday, which is crazy, because then they all have to go do a matinee the next day. But, like, a lot of them were in Broadway shows, like, had to finish their two show days, then go to this dance studio, do a dance class, and then sit around, you know, two in the morning, whatever. And something they all talk about is, like, everyone and everyone in Broadway was finally getting into therapy, and everyone was also getting into Buddhism. So this idea of being honest and truthful and, like, speaking about yourself and tapping into your emotions and your trauma. So people were very interested in revealing parts of themselves and not sort of bottling things up, which is very important, because if they weren't, we would not have the raw material that we have. And. Yeah, and like, Michael Bennett always said, oh, I don't know what I want to do with this. I do think there's, like, a show in our lives, but basically, I'm just recording all of us to see if there's anything there. And a lot of the material that's in A Chorus Line came from that recording session. They did one more, like, a couple of weeks later because that first session was so successful. But everyone says most of the stuff in the show came from the first ones. Like Kelly Bishop talking about her life is basically Sheila in a Chorus Line, Maggie Winslow, and at the ballet. That's Donna McKechnie's life. And just a lot of overlap and people talking about their stuff. And one of my favorite ones is Candace Brown, who would eventually become the character of Richie because she had done the workshops, but then she went off to do Chicago. And so they brought in a male actor and made the role Richie. But I think, like, Candy might have been the only black woman at the taping, but everyone kind of, like, turned to her and was like, so Candy, like, what's your trauma? Like, thinking it's 1970s. You grew up in, like, the late 40s in California as a black woman. Like, clearly, you've got bad stories, right? And she was like, My parents are happy that I'm happy. And I went to school and it was all good. And I had friends and I had a boyfriend, and then I didn't have a boyfriend. And I had a pretty relatively sane childhood. And then everybody just, like, went up and hugged her because they're like, oh, my God, someone had a normal childhood.

B (24:33)

You know, I just worked on a workshop to show where a very similar situation happened. And it's interesting to contrast it against that time period because this director was singling out the people of color and trying to pull their trauma, and it just was not okay on any level. And it. They put a stop to it. It ended.

A (24:52)

Because that's. Because it's fetishization. You're fetishizing the. Your bipoc artists and. And basically only using them for. And defining them by the quote, unquote, bad things that happen in their lives. And then if something that didn't happen in their lives that was traumatic, they have less value to the. To the process. No, that's. That's no good. But that's. That's a story for another day. That's another story. Never mind.

B (25:16)

Anyway, different pod. I know, but it is interesting because it is this, like, white man who's. Even though it's everyone's story, is he is the one that is taking it and piecing it together along with the team. Maybe.

A (25:26)

Yeah.

B (25:26)

Well, so saying just his perspective is.

A (25:29)

Well, so the thing that kind of clinched the whole thing was Nicholas Dante at this taping. His story was the Paul monologue. And everyone says, like, because Nicholas was a dancer who was trying to become a writer. He had. He had very well. He had crafted very well his story in a way that it, like, just flowed very beautifully. And that basically the Paul monologue, as it is in the show, is nearly word for word what he said that day.

B (25:53)

Oh, wow.

A (25:54)

And it's pretty much the only reason why Dante is still credited as a book writer, because he. He was the book writer when the show went into development, because it was like, from those tapings in January and February, it wasn't until about September that they did the first workshop at the Public. And there it was mostly just monologues and dance to, like, drum beats with, like, little pieces of music here and there. I don't think there were really any songs of that first workshop.

B (26:18)

Sounds like a Saturday night.

A (26:19)

Absolutely. And it was like five hours long, everyone. It was a big old mess, but, like, there was clearly something in there very deep down. And one of the major changes they made in between the first and second workshops was they brought on James Kirkwood Jr. Who was a novelist and aspiring playwright, and, you know, came in and really shaped the book. And Dante had to be kept on because without Dante, they couldn't have the Paul monologue. And Michael Bennett knew they needed the Paul monologue.

B (26:47)

That's interesting, too, because every actor that contributed all this other stuff basically signed away the rights to their stories and didn't get any credit until after the show, you know, was doing well, and they renegotiated a deal. But I think it's. It's wild that this one guy was able to kind of cling on to the. The monologue. Maybe he was just smart enough to know.

A (27:05)

Well, I think because he wasn't in the show, he was part of writing the show. And I think you could probably claim as a writer, you know, like, that monologue that is in there is part of his intellectual property as a writer. But, yeah, because the. The signing of everyone's life away for, like, a dollar each, that was sort of a technicality that Bennett had to do. And no one knew it was going to be anything. And again, it depends on who you talk to. Like, I was watching a Theater Talk interview with John Breglio and Bob Avian when the Chorus Line revival was coming out, and they talked about that, and they were like, listen, Michael did not have to go back and, like, renegotiate a contract with the actors. He did that out of the goodness of his heart. No one thought this was going to be anything. And then when it blew up, he came back and negotiated a deal. I'm like, yeah, for the lowest possible offer, where I think the entire cast shared, like, 1 point of 1% or something like that. And so they all got, like, three.

B (28:02)

Tiers that funneled down.

A (28:04)

Yeah. Based off of, like, their contributions. It was the original company. It wasn't even everyone, I think, involved in the tapings, but it was everyone in the original company. And it would. It was based off of. Yeah. Like, were you at the first reading, or were you at the day we did the tapings and got everyone's life stories? Okay, that's. That's one tier. Next year is, did you do one of the workshops? That's the second tier. Are you in the original Broadway company? That's three tiers. So, like, you got more money or more percentages based off of, like, each tier, but still, it wasn't a lot for anybody.

B (28:31)

Yeah.

A (28:32)

And Michael was, like, raking in the dough, you know, bought himself a Rolls Royce and, like, this giant penthouse apartment and just really kind of did all the wrong things. That first year of Broadway success.

B (28:45)

I wonder if now, with his estate, if they could almost renegotiate some kind of deal where the people that are still living can get more money. I don't know how that all works.

A (28:54)

But I think at this point. Yeah, I think at this point, it's a lost cause. And, like, you just kind of have to accept and maybe take value, take stock in the fact that, like, the thing you are a part of has continued living on. So in a way, you are still immortal.

B (29:08)

Yeah.

A (29:08)

Which is a great thing. In a weird way, I think that's even better than money in its own way, because, like, eventually you will die and your bank account won't matter, but the show that you're a part of will live on.

B (29:22)

Yeah. And you were brought there by somebody else. It wasn't like you started this idea on your own necessarily, as a person, performer. And it happens all the time, even now as actors auditioning. I mean, how many times do I get self tapes for things, which I'm thankful to get, but then it's like, improv this scenario, or, you know, here's the structure. Improv the lines. They're not casting the thousands of people that are submitting, but they're probably taking some of the lines and then using it in the commercial. I mean, you watch these things and you're like, that sounds familiar. I auditioned for that.

A (29:48)

What's going on?

B (29:49)

You know, so it is nice to just get that exposure. You're right.

A (29:52)

Yeah. It's. It's a. It's a weird. It's a weird situation. So, like, I don't know if you've read as well, like, kind of how the choreography went for the show is for the developmental process with a lot of the.

B (30:06)

The improv and.

A (30:08)

Yeah. So, like, in. In those workshops, what would happen would be, like, while Bennett and the writers would kind of go off and shape the script, he would tell the dancers, like, okay, like, you're gonna go into a groups of four and everyone come up with an eight count. And he would watch and then, like, pick which ones he liked and move things around and then tie it together with his own stuff. And I know we're sort of in a time right now where it's all kind of got to come from one mind. And, like, you know, if you're the choreographer, you're the one coming up with the steps. If you're the director, you come up with all the staging. Like, you have all the ideas. And it goes against the other argument that actors like to make of, like, we're valuable to the process because it's a collaboration. And it goes into the argument of the workshops and honestly, why, you know, labs then started happening and why actors trying to fight back and have workshops be a part of it again and get proper compensation. We talked about this with the Hamilton episode as well, and. And it. It's tied into A Chorus Line. There's. There's a lot of arguments on both sides. The raw material for the script came from these dancers, from their lives, and some of the lines even came there. And a lot of the dance steps you see in Bennett's choreography came from the dancers. Where Bennett comes in and shows his genius is being able to take the 24 hours worth of tapes with his writers, with his composer and his dance arranger and all that, looking through all the different eight counts and recognizing when there's something and then expanding upon that, that is. That is what makes him in charge. You know, like, Priscilla Lopez did not write nothing. She wrote. She lived the life that nothing is about Edward Cleban and Marvin Hamilton wrote songs in the whole show, the great song and that. And they. And when you read books, because there are so many books about this show and, like, the process of it, and everyone likes to take credit for everything or. Or highlight the importance of what they did. And the truth is, you know, Cleban would look through the. The transcripts and just be like. And like, every 30 pages, he would finally find something. So, you know, it's a lot of work.

B (32:12)

I mean, it's a lot of work. I worked on the Other side of the table on an ethnodrama, and it was, you know, with a local arts program. And we compiled all these hours of interviews from these young kids, and it. It's just insane going through it and picking what to. What to put out there. But it's usually the things I feel like, at least when you're interviewed, that you think are so boring and simple, that are the most telling and wind up in these shows. I'm sure, like, the people that are inspiring these characters maybe didn't originally think, you know, their lines or the stories they were telling were that wild. Like, I mean, one of the craziest, to me is Judy Turner's. You probably know this story about how the sisters auditioned together, and then ultimately the one that got it was not the sister who told the story about the little brat. It was the actual little brat. So the woman that wound up in the show, I think Jackie Garland was the one that did the interview, and then her sister that wound up in the show was singing about herself, but she ended up getting cast. And it's just. It's like you sit there and you think to yourself, oh, is it that interesting to say my sister's a little brat? Like, half the people in America are saying that.

A (33:13)

Yeah.

B (33:14)

It just works so well in the show. And the way they were able to piece that together and have these moments, it's very balanced.

A (33:19)

Yeah. And that's. And that's sort of what makes the whole show work so well. And again, the fact that it's a collaboration. And this workshop where it's like the line, little brat. That's what my sister was, a little brat. And that's why I shaved her head. Like, that's funny. That's a funny moment. But it's funnier when it comes out of nowhere in the montage sequence with Hamish's music, which punctuates, that's why I shaved her head. I'm glad I shaved her head.

B (33:46)

Exactly.

A (33:47)

And then it becomes extraordinarily funny, and it's. Yeah. I mean, so, like, I'll. I'm gonna say this as vague as possible so no one can know what show I'm talking about. I have a friend who is in rehearsals for a show right now.

B (34:02)

Okay.

A (34:02)

And there is a sequence where the choreographer told all the actors to, like, it was a Michael Bennett situation. Everybody come up with, like, eight counts on your own. And they all did. And then the choreographer went, okay, we're gonna do this person's first four, and then this person's second four. Now let's put that together. Now let's see if we can. Let's see how many times we want to repeat that. Okay, now we'll have this group start, and then this group start four counts later. Now let's do it at this angle. Now let's do it in a circle. Okay, now we're going to start with blah, blah, now. And a couple of the actors were a little po. Because they were like, well, you're not choreographing. We're choreographing. You're editing. And then I kind of sit there and I go, go. That's. But that's choreography. Like, you're not. You are not the one who saw the movements that would work and figured out how to shape it into the story. You know, you kind of came up with your own thing in the moment, and that's great. As an artist. You want to be free. You want to be open and uninhibited. It took the choreographer's perspective to see what was there and build upon it. And I. And again, we talk about, like, how everyone's saying, you know, you're not a good actor unless you're incredibly versatile. You got to play all the different things. You can't. You're not a good singer unless you go with the highest and the lowest. And it's like, well, no, you know, there. There's. There's more to it than that.

B (35:15)

It harks back to kind of what we were saying, too, which is giving credit. I mean, people in this industry don't love to give people credit. They love to stand on the carpet, and a lot of people will take the credit. But I'm all about, like, shout those people out. I mean, we do these award shows where people get, like, one minute to go up there and maybe rattle off, like, five names, and it mostly is their mom and their wife and their husband, whatever.

A (35:34)

And their agent. Yeah, yeah.

B (35:36)

And their agent. It's like, you know, give them a little scrolly where it says all the names. But the truth is, it's all collaborative. I think I was listening to my. Give my Shout out my friend Alana Levine, her podcast and the award goes to, which is also on our network, by the way. She has this episode with Alison Jani out, and she was saying when she won her Oscar, I think it was, she had this speech prepared that one of the writers on her show, mom, wrote for her, which was just go up there and say, I did it all myself, and then mic drop and walk away. And it was obviously so clearly supposed to be a joke because nobody does this stuff on their own.

A (36:11)

So.

B (36:12)

Yeah, it's an interesting argument, but I think it's like, if you're. It's different if you're not even crediting people. I mean, that's where it's nuts to me.

A (36:19)

Yeah, it's. There's so many people who are a part of a Chorus Lines DNA and. And should absolutely be, you know, shouted out to. It's the. It's a bit of the ego on both sides, though. It's. It's the Michael Bennett ego of, like, the. It all comes from my brain conceived. It's the dancer's ego of, like, well, if it weren't for us, the show wouldn't exist. And for both sides. I kind of want to paraphrase Jesse Eisenberg and Social Network, which is.

B (36:44)

Go for it.

A (36:46)

When he. When he says to the Twinkle, Voss, whatever their names are, the twins in Social network. If you guys had invented Facebook, you would have invented Facebook. And it's true of everyone with the Chorus Line. It's like if you had written a chorus line, you would have written a chorus Line. And the truth is they all wrote A Chorus line together. And it's when they all kind of acknowledge that and give everyone their due is when we all kind of can breathe and move on.

B (37:07)

Yeah. And that's why it's interesting. I mean, I actually took this out just for this. I got it out of my little playbill bin. But when you're looking at, like, recent productions of A Chorus Line, like, this was the 2018 city center that I went to and had Robin Herder.

A (37:19)

Was Cassie in that one, right?

B (37:21)

Yes.

A (37:21)

Did you see what I would have given to see her play? Cassie?

B (37:25)

It was amazing. And I had a few friends in it. My friend Jay, it was Bobby. And I mean, it was. It was so beautiful. The production was amazing. And I think what hits me over the head like a nail, and it's not what I was going to say, but I'm going with it because I have ADD is that there's so many things in A Chorus Line that are just landmarks that you don't touch and you don't change, even if you're tweaking little things here and there. There's so many things that have just stood the test of time.

A (37:50)

Yeah.

B (37:50)

And it's still relatable. I mean, this was a brand new production. I think the point of me bringing it out was that looking through it, I'm not seeing everyone that was in the original production getting credits. You know, I'm still seeing Michael Bennett's name is here, obviously. Marvin Hamlisch. I mean, there's certain people that are given the credit. Although Biorc did, I think, direct this one, which is cool. She's so lovely. She actually came up to us after the show and was the kindest person because I went with a bunch of people that did a course line together and gave out her email. And it's just so excited to keep the legacy going. So I think there are those different camps with people that have certain opinions about getting the credit and all this stuff after all these years, but she keeps that legacy alive in such a beautiful way.

A (38:33)

Well, I think also it matters with everyone in the original company where their lives went. And there was a lot of glory at the time when the show came out, so. And a lot of them did not necessarily go on to great things afterwards or as great things afterwards. And there can still be some, you know, bitter resentment about that. And so I feel like not to, you know, generalize, but you got like, people like Donna McKechnie, who still had a very strong theater career afterwards, and Kelly Bishop, who went on to, you know, become a TV star, and BayArkley, who basically made it her life's journey to keep A Chorus Line going all over the world. They have no issues with their ties to the show and are very open about it and candid and objective and recognize the good and the bad because they don't have as much to prove by saying otherwise. And it's sort of like when that's the one thing you've done and you haven't been able to hold up since then, it's like, well, I am resentful now. That's the one thing I remembered for. And so I don't want to talk about it as much. Whereas I'm sort of like. But you're remembering. Remembered for something. Not everyone gets to be remembered for something most of us don't. I actually want to go back for a second to the development of this. It's an interesting. Because the development of the workshops is just so fascinating. I don't know how much you read about.

B (39:50)

Oh, yeah, I'm dancing back.

A (39:52)

Yeah. One of the first songs that made it in that, like, stayed in the show was at the Ballet, which is beautiful song. It's a beautiful song. And as a Red Shoes fan, I love that it gets a major shout out. Because the truth is, the Red Shoes was a major pivotal moment for dancers at that time when it came out in late 40s, which is so funny because that movie is sort of like a cautionary tale of being too devoted to your craft.

B (40:19)

Well, Kelly Bishop says she is the Red Shoes. She's.

A (40:23)

Yeah. When. Yeah, when she talks about when they went in the beyond the golden age clip, when they're all sort of talking about themselves, everyone's like, yeah, she was more sheer in the Red Shoes. She had red hair, beautiful. Best dancer on Broadway.

B (40:37)

Yeah. And her confidence in that clip is so amazing.

A (40:41)

Well, because she has nothing to prove. She's like, I knew I was great. She's like, no one could out dance me. But have you seen the Red Shoes?

B (40:49)

I haven't.

A (40:50)

Are you aware of it? Do you, like, know what it is?

B (40:52)

I'm aware of it, yeah. I'm aware of the. It kept coming up too, when I was looking into this.

A (40:56)

Yeah.

B (40:57)

But I think it can Symbolize a lot of things when you're watching the show. I mean, I think. I don't think you have to have seen it to realize it's.

A (41:03)

No, no. I mean, I think it was. It was a bit more of a Punchline in the 70s because the movie was about 27 years old at that point. So, like in. To like, you know, give people perspective, that's like, you know, audiences today hearing a joke about Jerry Maguire in a show. It's like, oh, yeah, we all saw that movie. Like, great movie. The Red Shoes is a ballet movie, obviously. And it's basically about a ballerina who all she wants to do is dance. Like that is her life's mission. And she happens to fall in love with the composer of the ballet company who creates this ballet of the Red Shoes by Hans Christian Andersen, which she stars in. And it's like this big artistic triumph for both of them. And the artistic director of the ballet company, it's like the greatest in the world. He's very, you know, he finds a kindred spirit in her because they're both like, it's about the art. It's about the art. It's about the art. Art. And the composer is sort of like, yeah, art. The art's great, and I want to be an artist, too. He's like, but also love. And she's like, yes, but also love. And then she gets sort of torn between the two. And everyone always sort of mistakes that it's about, you know, she. She ends up killing herself. And everyone thinks it's because she's choosing between two men. That's not what it is. It's that she can't bring herself to give up either. And life without either is meaningless to her. Like, I want love, but also I can't give up what I love to do, which is dance. And. And it's just so funny to me. Like, all these little girls go watch the Red Shoes and they're like, I want to dance. And the reason they see the movie and want to do that is because it's famous for having this 18 minute ballet in the middle of the film where we watch the ballet of the Red Shoes. And it's incredible. It's like amazing music, gorgeous color. It's all on YouTube. I highly recommend you watch it.

B (42:44)

Okay. And so I think content.

A (42:48)

I love it. You're welcome. Here's what I'm here for. I'm teaching the children and Robert. But we all. We all watch that ballet and we're like, oh, my God, that's Just so incredible. And I'm sure, like, in 1948, no one had ever seen something filmed that way before. It's just so inventive and innovative. I feel like everyone just sort of. All those girls then just, like, forget the last five minutes of the movie where she kills herself. Yeah.

B (43:09)

Well, it's such an interesting theme that we keep exploring over and over again, and it's certainly in A Chorus Line, but it's still today in movies like La La Land. I mean, Tick, Tick Boom, which just had its own film adaptation, which is like that struggle between your passion, but also your life, you know, your home life, your. Your love, but then also following your dream. And it's such a hard thing to balance. And most of these movies don't. Don't show people how to balance it. They usually end pretty badly.

A (43:38)

Yeah, Whiplash and Black Swan, too. It's very much about, like, Black Swan.

B (43:42)

Yeah.

A (43:42)

Yeah. It's. It's. You know, you can be great, but you have to give up some stuff. And we're kind of in a place with the theater community, with a lot of artists, I would argue, where many people want to do great work, but they also want to have a life. And I think that's very understandable and commendable. But you. We have to ask ourselves, like, how much of the work we're seeing is really great in the way that, like, people still talk about, you know, Patti LuPone in Evita. We have shows like A Chorus Line and Oklahoma. And, you know, Ethel Merman and Gypsy and, like, things like that that really kind of just have these marks that are always just going to like, be a part of history. And I think we have a lot of excitement and love and support for the things that we all do. But, you know, I think about shows from four years ago that had these very passionate fan bases for a brief period of time and aren't talked about anymore. This isn't me throwing it under the bus. This is just a very prime example that I can think of. I remember when Bandstand came out, I did not care for Bandstand in any way, but I remember the fan base for it was so intense. Yeah, it was that, like, it. Basically, that's part of reason why it got filmed was because they're like, well, we have this passionate fan base. Yeah, that was six years ago. Seven, five years ago. Six years ago. No one talks about Bandstand now. And everyone I remember thought, like, Laura Austin's RIP was gonna have a Tony nomination because of how she's Saying welcome home. And that's not a moment that anyone talks about anymore. Not in the way that we talk about. Like, Patty doing everything's Coming Up Roses or contracting. Like Victoria Clark in Piazza. Like, these performances that really, like, just keep on holding on.

B (45:27)

I wonder if there's. And I would love your thoughts, too, like, based off of tracking, what you're saying is if there's a correlation between the fact now that we expect stars to always be stars across the board. So what I mean by that is, on social media, we want to follow them and we want to see their life, and that's almost as important as seeing them on the stage. And so we have that. Which is so different now from when these classic shows and iconic things came out. I mean, the stars of A Chorus Line weren't on Instagram. Patti LuPone, I don't even know. She's probably still not on Instagram, but it's like, probably not.

A (45:59)

Yeah.

B (46:00)

Also fun fact. Random. I just wanted to throw this in here. I did not know her brother was in A Chorus Line, which kind of blew my mind.

A (46:06)

Yeah.

B (46:06)

Until researching it.

A (46:07)

But they were both nominated that year on the Tony Awards.

B (46:10)

That's wild.

A (46:11)

Isn't that crazy?

B (46:12)

Well, this. This business.

A (46:13)

Well, because you know that. So it's so funny if you actually watch the Tony ceremony. So Patti wasn't there because she was on the road with the acting company, but she was nominated for the Robert Bridegroom. And when they announced her name as a nominee, they show Ann Reinking. And you can look. See Ann Reinking, look at the. The tv and, like, basically look at. Like, look to Bob Fosse and be like, the fuck. Like, I'm not Patti LuPone.

B (46:36)

Shows do crazy things. I just watched the speech where Joe Pesci was nominated for an Oscar because I keep going for Jersey Boys. And I was like, I should hear what his voice sounds like if I'm gonna audition for him. And so I was watching this clip, and for his Oscar for. I forget what he was nominated for.

A (46:51)

He won for Goodfellas.

B (46:52)

It was Goodfellas. That's what it was. They didn't show a clip. They showed a clip from Home Alone.

A (46:57)

Seriously.

B (46:58)

And I think it was maybe because his Goodfellas lines were, like, too controversial for television probably. But anyway, these award shows do wild things, so I'm not surprised they did that. That's a bad one.

A (47:08)

I mean, and, like, it was still relatively early in the years of them airing the Tony Awards. I think they were, like, 10 years in at that Point. So they didn't really. I guess I didn't really know what to do when a nominee wasn't there. So they're like, oh. And like there are also other years where the nominees are there and they show someone else. Like it's.

B (47:26)

Yeah.

A (47:26)

Messy. Messy, messy, messy.

B (47:28)

Yeah. I mean, it's hard. Shout out to all the directors out there calling live shows. I've worked on them.

A (47:31)

Well, it's gone a lot. It's gone a lot better now. It's a lot better now. I think I, I still don't think they've necessarily filmed the performances that well these days, but they're. They've got a lot better about at least having the camera on the right nominee when their names are announced.

B (47:43)

Well, the fact that these shows have to pay for this too, I think is wild. That always blows my mind. You have to pay to perform.

A (47:49)

And, and it's also why the performances sometimes are so short. Like Chorus line had a 9 minute, 8 minute performance and it opened the ceremony. It's, it's, it's so crazy because it's so clear that Chorus Line was going to dominate and was, you know, the big favorite that year. It was at the Super Theater where A Chorus Line was performing. They opened the show with. God, I hope I get it, a shortened version, but still like a solid seven to eight minutes. And then they closed the ceremony with one. And it's very Hamilton in that way. Like where Hamilton started off the telecast, they did their performance, then they closed the telecast.

B (48:24)

You're so right. They should have changed 1 to, to W O N. Sorry, I just said because they won. They won.

A (48:29)

Yeah. They won so many. One.

B (48:32)

Nine, right? Was it nine?

A (48:33)

I think so. They won. Musical score, book, director, choreographer, lighting actress, supporting actress support. Yeah, they won nine.

B (48:42)

Yeah. And you know what, Speaking of numbers, I know I'm bobbling all over the place, but I, I did when we were.

A (48:46)

Welcome to. Welcome to my theater. Robert. This is.

B (48:49)

Thank you. I'm glad to be here. I think it's so crazy, as we were talking about the development process, that the fact that they balance. I think there's like 19 actual characters, but there's only, what, 17 on the line. Name another. I mean, you probably can, but I don't know if most people can name another show or even movie or film, TV show, whatever, where they balance that many characters. And by the end you feel like you kind of really know each one and know who they are. I mean. Yeah, that's quite a feat to me.

A (49:15)

I think absolutely I mean, I think there are some characters that maybe fall a little more by the wayside than others.

B (49:20)

100%. Yeah.

A (49:22)

Yeah. Like Alan, Christine, like Chris. They had. They get the sing number. But I think Christine makes more of an impression than that, than Al does. And then I'm already forgetting his name. There's the guy who sings about, you know, having worked in strip clubs. I forget.

B (49:38)

Oh, not Bobby, Not Gregory.

A (49:44)

No, those are. You know what?

B (49:45)

I can actually look it up right here in my.

A (49:47)

Look it up right now.

B (49:50)

Don.

A (49:50)

Don, yeah. Don is, I think, one of the characters that sort of falls by the wayside. He's not unmemorable. And also, part of the reason I forgot his name is because Don is just such like. Like. Yeah, I know. Don't he get. He get. He gets some stuff, but he. Like, there are some characters that get, like, a song, right? Like, you know.

B (50:08)

Oh, yeah.

A (50:09)

Val gets a song. You know, Cassie obviously gets a song. Sheila is like the core about the ballet. Maggie gets to be the high note about the ballet. Diana gets a song. Paul gets the monologue.

B (50:21)

And Cassie, I think, are arguably the leads. I mean, if you're gonna. I don't think there are leads, but.

A (50:25)

Yeah, well, there was controversy at the time when the Tonys happened, when Donna was put in lead because everyone thought it was an ensemble show. And there was also a lot of tension backstage because Donna was, you know, Michael's muse and collaborated him so much. And, you know, she was never really a chorus person. She was in the ensemble for one Broadway musical and then pretty much was playing parts after that. And all the. I know, like, Kelly Bishop talked about that in beyond the Golden Age. When Donna sort of showed up to that class that day for the taping, she was like, why is Donna here? This is supposed to be for chorus people. Donna hasn't been in the chorus in 12 years. And Donna had just, like, come back from LA, where she had made a movie and all this stuff. But, I mean, I think depending on how the show works, and I think with Donna McKechnie, Cassie absolutely was the lead for that year. Because the way that Donna does that role just leaves such an impression. But, I mean, I think they're not so much who's the leads. Like, I think there are certain roles that are just, like, so meaty that even though I would have no problem being in any of those roles, like, if. If you're to be like Matt, the five roles you would want over anything else, I'd be like, yes, Cassie, Sheila, Val, Paul, and then probably Bobby, because I think Bobby's stuff in the. And number is just so good. But everyone gets a moment. Everyone gets an absolute moment.

B (51:43)

They certainly do. I mean, I know they. They had to obviously balance it, but even reading about how Richie and Connie had their own song, I think, called Confident or Confidence. Yeah. That was ultimately cut because it was too comical, they said. But it kind of dealt with their specific journeys. There are definitely people that aren't as spotlit, but I think just the fact that you feel like you kind of know each one a little bit by the end. Except for maybe Don. By Don.

A (52:07)

Sorry, Don.

B (52:08)

It's wild.

A (52:09)

Well, I think because. Sorry. You're gonna say no. You're gonna say no.

B (52:11)

No, you go.

A (52:12)

No, you go. You go.

B (52:13)

Oh, okay. Thank you. We're excited. Well, I mean, this is so random again. But Cassie, you know, bringing her up, I think she also pops because she's in red. Like, the red shoes. And I did. I don't know if now is the right time to do it, but I did want to make sure we gave that lovely costume designer a shout out, because Ms. Theonie.

A (52:28)

Vi Aldredge.

B (52:29)

Yeah. Yeah. She. Her costumes, again, have stood the test of time. How many times do you see A Chorus Line where it strays? I mean, it might stray a little bit, but everybody's using those same costumes. She also, I read, is the one who pretty much made up not all the blocking, but she decided that there was going to be a line on the stage they actually stood on.

A (52:47)

I read again, it's a. Everyone has a different concept, different things. Yeah, Bennett. So, like, Bennett was very obsessed as a director to start making musicals move like movies, which is something he's. That's not original with him. That's. That was going on since, like, the forties. If you watch. There are certain shows each decade that push along the fluidity of Broadway staging. So, like, South Pacific was the first Broadway musical to not have any blackouts, but they did that by basically just having, like, three separate scrim curtains that were, like. Would go back and forth so they could just go from one scene to the other. It wasn't like, highly movable scenery. Promises, Promises was just. Was described as another show that moved things forward because Michael Bennett would stage people around the scenery as scenes would change. Like, no curtain would come down between scene changes. But everything was sort of choreographed together. So there were. There were transitions and then a chorus line. There being no scenery. It was all just a bare stage with lighting. It was realistic with the mirrors and with the line itself. But once we got into the black box situation in the black. Not Mylar, but where the black, like the black backdrop, it allowed fluidity for everything because it just was this sort of malleable piece. I know Aldridge had a lot of issues with the costuming because she was like, how do you make statements with dance attire? And the two things that we. That I know and I know, you know, like Cassie all in red. Like Cassie's. I think one of the only characters to wear a solid color that's that bold. Because characters like Sheila or not Maggie, but. Oh, I think, like, maybe. Yeah, I think, like BB Maybe they have more like solid colors, but they're kind of basic. Like Sheila's. A skin colored. Also, Sheila's leotard is always meant to be, like, a little bit too small to show that Sheila is more vulnerable than she lets on. And also is, like, pushing the phrase of her youth. She's not. She's, like, on the edge of it. Exactly. So it's always going to be just, like, slightly ill fitting. Cassie also is, like, while she's all in red, she also has, like, that little skirt. None of the women are wearing skirts. They're wearing sneakers and leotards with tights and, like, a crop top. Like, Cassie looks elegant.

B (55:10)

Yeah. She's got that little bathing suit cover up. And it's funny, too, because she also designed Annie. And Annie is in that big, bright red. So it may be something with her, I don't know. But it could also just be the red shoes thing.

A (55:21)

She loves red.

B (55:23)

Yeah. And we're in his. His, you know, we're in kind of Zach's, like, mindset. So she's the one that's always popping for him in a lot of ways. But I think that in the set, I mean, have you read anything about the set design? And if it was because they didn't have enough money or whatever it was, I think that has just again stood the test of time and makes it really easy for these other theaters to put it on.

A (55:43)

It wasn't due to lack of money, although most of the money spent on A Chorus Line was on the workshops. Certain things were done because of budgetary constraints. For example, it has three orchestrators, which was very rare at the time. And it was because they could not afford to pay one orchestrator for the entire time. So they would pay each one differently for blocks of time. So each orchestrator did different numbers, which is insane to think about because the whole orchestration sounds unified, but it's I know it's. It's Bill Byers, Jonathan Tunick, and I think Harold Wheeler, maybe Hershey K. Maybe too. I don't know. But. Because Harold Wheeler did the orchestrations for Music in the Mirror, and he did that during previews at the Public, which originally Cassie had, like, boys as backup dancers. And it was this whole other thing and they were like, let's.

B (56:33)

Oh, wow. Yeah.

A (56:34)

Basically. What brought it down, you asked? Because of the set design, it all just came back down to simplicity. Like, the simpler the better. The simpler the better. Yeah. So originally they were putting into the budget, like, things to pop out of the stage and from the wings. Like there was going to be a bobsled for Diana for nothing and all this stuff.

B (56:51)

Oh, wow.

A (56:51)

And they just kept saying, like, no, like, simpler the better. And Michael wanted. Michael Bennett wanted mirrors and he wanted black. And then he's like, well, then we have the finale. And so it's got to make an impression. And originally it was going to be this grand staircase and these curtains. And Robin Wagner, the designer, was like, well, what if we just did a big sunburst at the end? He goes, because we can do. And it was called the periactoid, which is a scenic concept from Greek Theater, which is basically a pillar with three sides and with a simple shift, you have a new backdrop. And so one was black, one was mirror, one was the sunburst. And he's like, let's just do the sunburst. And makes it easy. And you can get your black and get your mirrors anytime you want, Michael. And Michael. Ben is like, great. There we go.

B (57:37)

I've turned those many times in Non Union Theater over the years.

A (57:41)

Yeah. And oh, boy, do they turn. But we talk about these contributions. I mean, so many things in this show happen really, by committee. For example, do you know that when the show was in previews at the Public Theater at the Newman, first of all, for like the first two weeks, there was. There nothing was said about who got the job. Bennett would pick at the end of the night who had done the best job on stage, and that was who got the job in the end.

B (58:06)

The anxiety that produces, which is palpable in the show and so relatable. Yeah. I think that is so wild. And that had quite an evolution, which I'm sure you're getting to.

A (58:15)

Yes, well, yeah, it came down to the wardrobe department basically confronted him. They're like, so that's a nightmare backstage now because you have it set. Who comes on for the finale? He goes, and we don't know who gets the job until you announce it. He's like, so we're scrambling backstage. Like, you got to set it. So he said it. But originally, Cassie didn't get the job because something that Ben had always really wanted for the show was, like, the truth. What's the truth? It's gonna get the truth. And he's like, truthfully, Cassie would not get the job. She's too overqualified. And, you know, they kept on toying with the role of Cassie. Originally, she had a star entrance because they wanted to give Donna a star entrance. So she showed up late in a fur, needing money for the taxi, and, like, had a. And talks about, like, having a mental breakdown. And they cut it because they're like, if Cassie was truly desperate to get this job, she would have been there on time, she would have been there early, and she would have not drawn attention to herself. In fact, you talk about her costume popping. They gave me the line, don't pop the head, Cassie. Which is. We'll absolutely get to that. But which. Have you seen the movie A Chorus Line?

B (59:17)

Unfortunately, no. Yes, I have seen it, but I get. Compared to the show, it is. Is not good.

A (59:24)

It's awful. And one of the biggest things they do wrong is they revert back to having Cassie be late for the auditions. And I'm like, that's. No. She's so desperate to get this job. She would have gone there so early to make it. Like, oh, she was stuck in traffic. I'm like, no, she would have gone on the flight the day before.

B (59:43)

Yeah.

A (59:43)

Yeah.

B (59:43)

And it is because they're like. I think B said that. She was like, it was the first piece of theater to be a reality show. It was like a reality show on stage because they were always, like, harking back to that truth.

A (59:55)

Very much so. What ended up making Michael Bennett change it so that Cassie got the job was Neil Simon was brought in to watch the show a couple of times and contributed some dialogue. He has a couple of sprinklings here and there in, like, the Bobby monologue. Supposedly, he wrote Val's monologue before Tits and Ass. And he's the one who came up for Sheila. I'm a Leo. It means the other months of the year have to watch out.

B (60:22)

That's such a good line.

A (60:23)

It's a great line. It didn't rewrite the book, but a couple of Neil Simon isms are in there. But while he was there, his wife at the time, Marsha Mason, who he wrote Goodbye Girl for, she had seen the show a bunch with him and was a huge champion of it. And she would offer feedback sometimes. And Michael Bennett kept on being so perplexed because he was like, that first night, the invite address we had with all the chorus kids, like, it was explosive. And now we're sold out and like the audiences are going really crazy for it, but not as crazy as I want. He goes, and I don't know what's wrong. Marsha Mason said, it's because you're not giving Cassie the job. She has to get the job. And he said, no, I can't. It's so unrealistic. And she looked him in the face and she goes, she's done everything right. She has done everything that's asked of her. She hasn't made a scene. She's. And she's like. And everyone wants to know that there can be a second chance. We relate to her the hardest. We want it to be her. She's done everything right. You have to give her the job. And so he gave her the job. And there's a moment in the show when Zack makes his final decisions and he calls names and they all come forward and it's revealed. The people at the front have actually now been cut. And Sheila has this very life still.

B (61:31)

Sometimes, by the way.

A (61:32)

Oh, absolutely. Sheila. Because in, because at the beginning of the show and God, I hope I get it, the people he calls are the people who've made it it. So he does the reverse this time, which is just cruel. But Sheila gets cut and she walks up to get her dance back and walks off stage. And as she does, she's watching Zach. It's clear that, you know, they have a. They've worked before in the past and they know each other and you know, she's. Everyone needs the job. Everyone wants the job. And he made her vulnerable that day. And for what? For nothing but that walk off she does. That was originally Cassie. And I can imagine that stung a lot harder for audiences. As opposed where like, Cassie wasn't vindictive. Cassie was vulnerable from the word go and really needed this second chance and did everything that was asked of her. And Zach still pissed on her face and called it rain. As opposed to Sheila where like, yes, she needs it, but she's not quite as open hearted. We, like, we relate to Sheila, but we don't necessarily connect with her. And it sucks that she was vulnerable for quote, unquote, nothing. But it's, it hurts a little less when it's Sheila as opposed to Cassie.

B (62:34)

Yeah. And it Works so well, too. I mean, the whole show is screaming rejection. So you kind of need that redemption story. Especially because the show, if we're talking about truth, is literally giving all these dancers a redemption story. It was at a time where, like, dancers weren't as respected, and it was even credited with saving Broadway, like, with all these dancers in this hit show. So to have that actually in the show is truthful. You know, it's not.

A (62:57)

Absolutely. And I mean, it ends on that wonderful note of them getting the job, and they're all excited, but it's. It. It's so crazy how your. How your mood switches so quickly because we've. We're tense knowing that it's gotta be only eight of these. 17. And we've related to so many of them, and we want. No, we want certain ones to get it more because we relate to them and we feel the pain when those dancers get cut. But then we feel elated and we watch, you know, Mark finally get his first Broadway show, and he gets to hug Val, who's the only one who's nice to him on the line, or, you know, and we see Cassie get her second chance and all this stuff, and it's so lovely. And then we get the finale. Finale, which is an interesting combination. 1. Have you read a bit about what Michael Bennett was trying to convey with this finale?

B (63:47)

A little bit.

A (63:48)

Tell us. Tell a bit what you.

B (63:50)

Well, I don't know if it's. There's so much out there, which I think is wonderful about this stuff, but the finale for me. For me, what I was getting from a lot of the stuff, I don't think. I don't know if I read directly about Michael Bennet, but it was just the fact that they're trying to show, obviously, like, the Broadway show in its entirety and, like, the big spectacle at the end, and they're kind of giving audiences what they want. But I think what comes through is, like, the. I don't know if manic is the right word, but just the addiction and the high of, like, booking the part and being a part of that show. For me, I think it goes back to that eerie moment of one where they're rehearsing it. It's like you see them at the end, and there's something eerie about it.

A (64:26)

Yeah. Yeah. We watched them rehearse the number for the. For the audition, and then we see the number in its entirety.

B (64:34)

Yeah.

A (64:35)

What Bennett wanted to do, he wanted to make it kind of a depressing finale by saying, we've just gotten to know these 17 dancers and by the end they're all just part of a line and they're all indistinguishable. They're in the same costumes, they're in a line kicking. You can't tell one from the other. I think that's partly true, but I think there's a subconscious reason why audiences always would go crazy for it. In addition to the fact that just musical theater chemistry makes you go crazy for it. You know, we in like my own, at least in my way. What always makes me feel so happy watching that number is like, it kind of feels a bit like a fantasy where they all got the job and they all got to do the number together and they all got to be in the Broadway show together. Yeah, because we're watching the number as it's supposed to be on stage, but obviously it's only supposed to be eight of them.

B (65:20)

Them.

A (65:20)

And they're supposed to be a star in the front. But I just view it as like, they all got the job and it's a celebration of their own talents and they get to do the thing they love, which is dance and perform with no threat of unemployment, with no need to be vulnerable, just pure joy. It's a celebration of their artistry. And yes, they are a little indistinguishable from each other, but that's sort of just the double edged sword of it. I don't look at it as like, oh, and now they're just part of being a chorus. I'm like, and now they get to be a chorus together. Like, yeah, exactly.

B (65:52)

I don't read it that way either because I do remember people talking about how you want to just be blending. And some people are saying they fade away at the end and it literally does fade, which is interesting. There's not a button. But I don't, I don't see it that way. I see it how you see it, which is that they're getting to do what they love. And we spent this whole show hearing them talk about what they want to do and what they love and how they want it so desperately and then they're doing it at the end. So it is like a very exciting moment.

A (66:15)

Yeah, I think it's. I mean, it's a little bit of both. And yeah, you're right, it does fade out because the finale is the bows. They each come out and get their one individual bow and then they're just a part of the chorus line and then it fades out as they kick. But yeah, I've always, I always Found it more of a celebration of artistry and a paradise where they all got the job. That is how I always feel.

B (66:36)

There is a little bit of that eerie thing like I was talking about before too, when it's just fading out and they're kicking and they're all together and it's like. Like, oh, this is. Like, this is an addiction. There's something there for me when I watch it, but it's also overall inspiring. So I'm not like walking away feeling like it was the end of watching the end of Cabaret or something like that, where it's a total switch. You know what I mean? Especially because they have that dark stage the whole time that's so, for lack of a better word, sparse. And then by the end, you're treated to this beautiful, rich finale and it's what you want. So if he wanted it to be the other way, he should have, you know, made sure maybe the dancers that didn't book it weren't in it. Which brings me to these cut dancers. What's your feeling on. On the cut dancers who are just kind of waiting around? I get. Some of them are probably the dance captain. The swings. It's employing people. I don't know.

A (67:26)

I think it's. You need to have a couple of people at the start, not. Not make it to the second cut just to sort of show.

B (67:34)

You do it.

A (67:36)

You do. You need it. It's. It seems superfluous until you don't have those dancers and you just have the 17 that make the cut.

B (67:42)

Yeah.

A (67:42)

And you don't see the rejection at the start. That's going to come again at the end. There's a. If you watch the Tony performance from 1976, Michael Bennett directed that performance with the cameras himself and insisted on a close up when Zach Robert Lupone makes the cuts and he says other male dancers. Thank you so much. I'm sorry. And there's a little close up that's very short of one of the dancers that didn't make it. And you just see how distraught he is. But he has to. It's very quick because he's got to get his bag and he's got to.

B (68:13)

Get out of there.

A (68:14)

And it's just like. It's heartbreaking and you need that at the start. And I know that those dancers were the understudies as well in the swings. I don't know how we would do that now. I'm sure we'd have those dancers as. In addition to like three other swings and should like five people and the 17 principals be out and all those extra dancers have to go on, then we'd only have three swings that get cut that day. But you still need at least somebody cut.

B (68:42)

Yeah, no, you're right. And it's brilliant, too, in the fact that they each kind of get their own moment. I mean, there's like, the headband dude. They all have names, actually, which I didn't realize. It's kind of. I think his name is Butcher, depending on who's playing it. But it. They all kind of do get their own moment in that little short amount of time. And it's fun as the audience because you don't know who's actually going to make it unless you've seen the show a million times like us.

A (69:02)

But absolutely, because, yeah, we have.

B (69:04)

So bad.

A (69:05)

Yeah. There's head handbag, headband boy. There's girl who has no ballet training. And Zach tells her to stop dancing. Yes. Don't dance. Don't dance. And when he's. When he's making his final decisions and he points to two different women and says, any Broadway shows? One says no, and the other one says, touring companies. And I don't think either of them make the final cut. I love, which I love the fact that they make it that, you know, he asks someone if she's had any Broadway shows, and she says no, which is probably a clinching decision for Zach. Of like, well, you know, I. I see potential, but, you know, let me see if she's had any Broadway shows, because if she's done Broadway shows, that means she can take the pressure in rehearsals because I'm not seeing it here. But she doesn't get called back because she doesn't have any Broadway shows. But how do you get called back for a Broadway show if you need to have a Broadway show and you've never done a Broadway show? You know, like, I think Nicole Byer kind of talked about this of like, you can only, like, book a. A gig on a talk show as a comic. If you've been on a talk show as a comic. Like, they'll show us your work on other talk shows. She's like, how do I do that if I can't, If I haven't been booked yet? Yeah, yeah.

B (70:16)

It's so hard. It's just like a circle of hell sometimes. And it's the same with. With an actor. It's like, you can only book a gig if you have a reel. You can show me from your other projects. It's like, well, I need my first project. Yeah. Yeah.

A (70:27)

Oh, before I forget, we have to take a break.

B (70:29)

Oh, really?

A (70:30)

I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. And we're back. So I keep forgetting, Robert, that I. I'm on the Broadway podcast network and we have to do break sometimes, especially because I do a long form interview. So I have to do. I have to do a second break pretty soon after this one because I waited about an hour and 10.

B (70:59)

I don't even tell people. I just like wait for a pause and I slot my little ads in. So I like that you give people a warning maybe.

A (71:05)

Yeah, I have a couple episodes where I just totally forgot to do it. And so it is. It just comes right in there. But I tried, I tried to do. I try to do the warnings. I'm professional that way. I'm considerate.

B (71:14)

Okay.

A (71:15)

Okay. What is a favorite moment of yours in Coruscant? What are a couple of favorite moments almost that come to mind?

B (71:22)

Reading my mind.

A (71:23)

Yes, I am.

B (71:23)

I was thinking of. This isn't necessarily my favorite moment. I'll tell you my favorite moment after this because I'll never shut the up. But I love the iconic moment of the resumes of putting the headshots over their face and holding their resumes.

A (71:36)

Iconic.

B (71:37)

My favorite because I think it's just become the iconic image and it's so overdone now and referenced. But I wonder just how that started. And I think it's just so brilliant because they're just standing there, literally. Am I my resume? Yeah, you are. And holding up your headshot and it's something you kind of have to do as an actor and a performer. And now it's a moment like when I saw this revival at City center that gets applause and people freak out for it. And it's one of the stillest moments of the show because there's no movement. So I think that's. That's such a cool thing. I don't know. I don't know who.

A (72:07)

It's almost like a police lineup, you know? Yeah, it's. It's so. Because it's such a harsh image. They're not people in those moments. They are hiding behind their resumes and they're. And their headshots. It's. The show is so earnest, but. And it's. And it is a love letter to show business while also being very truthful about the hardships of it. And you know, they. It's so crazy. They talk about the. You Know how Broadway's dying. The chorus is shrinking. And, you know, we've been talking about this for years, and it's still kind of that way. And A Chorus Line is coming at a point in Broadway musicals where, you know, New York was struggling and there were hit Broadway shows, but nothing that was, like, really kind of grabbing America and saying, like, come to New York and see this show. We had shows like Company and Follies, which was taking New York by storm, at least culturally speaking. And we had shows like the Wiz and Shenandoah, which, like, would run for a few years and did well, but they weren't. Like, everyone across the country had to come and see it. Like, it wasn't. All of America was talking about these shows.

B (73:11)

I know we forget that in the Broadway community sometimes. It's like, we might know the truth about what happened with Funny Girl, but this person across the country doesn't give two craps and just knows maybe it's playing somewhere.

A (73:21)

Well, I. I would. I think. I think a lot of that Funny Girl drama actually has become. I think a lot of the Funny Girl drama has actually become national news in a. In a weird way. Like, I think that's the first Broadway show probably since, like, Hamilton, where people who aren't necessarily in theater, like, oh, I heard that there's drama there. Or like, oh, I. Yeah, that has come up in my conversation example because.

B (73:42)

We have a huge celebrity in the lead. But, you know, most of the time, it's like, people aren't thinking that. And I. That's why I loved reading, too. When A Chorus Line was a big hit, people would show up and it was sold out. But it was good for Broadway because then people would walk down the street and see what else is playing and maybe grab tickets for that.

A (73:56)

Yep, absolutely, it was. Having a big hit of a hit of that magnitude is always good for Broadway because it draws attention to other shows. And it. It just. The only thing it doesn't do is, you know, when there's a sweep at the Tonys and nothing else can get awarded. And that's sort of, again, you know, why people kind of always had issue with Donna McKechnie winning actress, when there's no real lead in the Chorus Line. And, oh, by the way, you know, she beat out Gwen Verdon and Cheetah Rivera in Chicago. And how is that fair? I'm like, oh, no, it's what it is. You know, Gwen already had four Tonys by that point. She didn't need any more. And, you know, Cheetah would get her two later on. It's the good things come to those who. Who wait and. And continue to do the work. It's fine.

B (74:39)

Jennifer Coolidge is getting awards now, guys.

A (74:41)

Remember, finally. It took forever.

B (74:44)

It did.

A (74:44)

Yes. But now she is best in show.

B (74:47)

Oh, I see what you did there. Made it through high school without growing tits.

A (75:07)

I am the adolescent line has a bunch of that. And one of my Favorites is in Hello 12, hello 13, hello Love, aka the Montage. It's so much of it. But it's when we get to the. This. The second part after Greg's monologue of the. Do you want to feel anything else? And I thought of myself, no, I don't. Which is a great moment. And if you listen to the opening night audio on Broadway, the audience loses their mind for that joke. It's great. But we get to the cacophony part, the diaphragm, and live as an ashtray. You hear like, the drum just. It's so many times the drums has gone like, bada, bada, bada. And they get to that. My only adolescence. Where did it go? Oh, so. And. And it's so good. It's like you hear the orchestra getting. It just keeps growing in pitch. It goes. It's orchestrations where it goes up the scale subtly and you don't realize it.

B (76:16)

Yeah.

A (76:17)

And all you just feel is the excitement is so great. Like, they do the same thing in Music in the Mirror when Cassie's singing, they'll play me the music. And you just hear orcs are like, ba, ba, ba, ba.

B (76:26)

Yeah.

A (76:26)

I think it's also in the part of your world's reprise in the Little Mermaid movie when she's singing the. I don't know when I don't know how. It just.

B (76:31)

Oh, yeah, yeah.

A (76:32)

Up, up, up, up.

B (76:33)

It's.

A (76:34)

It's so good.

B (76:35)

Viral on TikTok. It is so good. And I think it's. It's. We've become a society where everything has to be showy and like, they really make a big thing out of that. And so to do it subtly, I think just proves the fact that musically the show is working on so many different levels. I mean, even something else that randomly comes to my head. That's one of my favorite moments is a musical moment. And it's so simple. But it's just when Val is like.

A (76:56)

Tits, where are my tits?

B (76:58)

And it's like, that's funny because it's a funny line, but also because she's singing in a way that that's traditionally, you know, more operatic and in her, you know, higher range, that wouldn't. You wouldn't sing a line like that. Like, maybe a rocker would say that. And there's just all these moments, and they come at the right time. The pacing is so wonderful. It's like, right when you need that laugh, it comes in there for you. So it's a constant drumbeat of fun.

A (77:21)

Yeah. There's a drive to it. There's a tempo to it. And Michael Bennett was a master of building something. I mean, I talk about all the time. And it's a famous story with turkey lurkey time, right? Like, they go out of town because he, you know, again, always about the truth, Michael. So turkey lurkey time takes place in a Christmas party at the office. So he's like, oh, everyone's drunk. It's gonna be sloppy. The secretary's gonna put on a little show. They do it in Boston, and it dies. And they're like, well, we're gonna cut it. He goes, no, no, I can fix it. I can fix it. He's like, I tried to go for truth. Scrap that. Pure musical theater know how and just made it build. So it just started with Donna Bayork and Margo Sappington. And it's them, and they're a tight little unit, and it's cute. And the choreography gets a little bigger with the three of them. And then slowly, like, other people start joining them. And so the whole office is joining them, and everyone's doing it in unison. It's this great big moment. And I always say, like, turkey lurkey time should be a case study for any aspiring choreographers on how to build a number. And that's also the truth of A Chorus Line, because you talk about, like, the tits. Where are my tits? Like, it's funny because we hear Val sing it first. Acapella. So we hear the line, and then she sings it again in that legit. Tits, where are my tits? But the whole montage, like, it's sort of piecemeal, right? Like, it'll build. It'll build, and then it'll come back down. And then it'll be a legato moment, and then it'll be a fun moment. And then we get to the part where it's the cacophony and everyone's overlapping. And we have Maggie going live. There's an ashtray.

B (78:47)

And.

A (78:48)

And. And it deals with the Paul, Paul, what am I gonna say when he calls on me? And then the. Over the. My Only Adolescence. Where did it go. It's a 13th morning. And then we explode to that final. There's a lot. Boom. I am not. And connects also to the finale one in this way, which is, again, Michael Bennett knowing how to build a number, give an audience what they want, but not give it to them up front. Stephen Schwartz does a. Has a video on YouTube where he talks about. I swear, I'm all over the place, but there's a point to this. He talks about when he wrote the wizard and I for. For Elphaba.

B (79:30)

Yeah.

A (79:31)

She had another song called Making Good, and it wasn't working. So they got back to, like, okay, it's the Wizard. He goes, okay. He goes, I have Idina Menzel. I'm writing a song for Idina Menzel. What do we know about Adina? And this is, you know, fresh off of Wild Party in Aida. And he's like, she belts. She's a. She's a big old belter. He goes. And he goes, I thought about when I saw A Chorus Line downtown to the public, and I kind of went in and, you know, and this was in the 70s when Stephen Schwartz thought he was hot because he had three hit shows. He had Godspell, Pippin, and Magic Show. Because I'm sitting there crossing my arms like I'm liking the show. But I get to the finale, and I see that they're all, you know, together and like, oh, of course they're gonna kick. It's gonna. It's gonna be them kicking all the time. And they got into this line and they didn't kick. They went back and they did a new moment. He's like, oh, okay. He goes, well, like, the next chorus, they're gonna kick. And they get to the front, and it didn't kick. And he goes, oh. So, like, they, like, the number just kept going and building, and they still didn't kick. And he goes. So I started the number being like, they're gonna kick. It's gonna be so stupid. And then each time they didn't kick, he would be like, when's the kicking gonna happen? Until the end. They finally do kick. And he goes, they're kicking. They're kicking. Yay.

B (80:34)

Yes. Yeah.

A (80:36)

He's like, if I could go from cynical to joyous about that. It's like, I did the same thing with wizard, and I'm like, I'm not going to have Adina belt until the very end of the. With me. And I'll stand there with a wizard.

B (80:46)

Yeah.

A (80:46)

And it's a great. It's a great Example, building.

B (80:50)

You got to build. And people. I'm reminded of it too. You know, a lot of good acting teachers will talk about that, even with a monologue or an audition scene, while, you know, you want to hook them in the beginning. If you blow everything right in the beginning, there's going to be nowhere to go. So you gotta. You gotta build up. And I think they do that brilliant. Brilliantly, too, with even just the blocking and the choices of when someone's gonna be alone on stage. I mean, there's only certain moments when the line actually leaves. You know, they do that very strategically. What's Is the first one? Nothing. Is that the first time everybody leaves?

A (81:20)

The first time, I think, is at the ballet when Sheila begins singing.

B (81:24)

Oh, yes, I've seen that. Sometimes they're behind them, sometimes they're in it, sometimes they leave, Sometimes it's just. Just the three.

A (81:29)

Yeah.

B (81:29)

I feel like when there's one person, it might be.

A (81:31)

I don't think the line. Yeah, the line doesn't leave the stage. They just walk away from the line. And the lights are low enough that you don't see them because then they have to start dancing on Maggie's big line. I think everyone leaves the stage when Diana starts nothing. When they go, okay, go. Yeah. And they hold hands and they, like, jolt up Christmas.

B (81:47)

I mean, even the way they leave is. Is brilliant. They're making use of everything like you were kind of talking about before, or even the one they're on stage and they have to pass their hats down the line without anybody seeing when their backs are turned. So I just think that is so cool how they. How they do that. And that is one of my other favorite moments is nothing. I mean, I'm just obsessed with that song. I think it's so beautiful. It's a great way. It's like she's trying to be this great actor and feel something, and she can't feel it. She can't be the ice cream cone and do this, like, whatever. And then by the end, she has a moment where she should feel something, but she feels nothing. And I think that just speaks to, I guess, the truth of life to get back to his truth. It's like when you are in these actual moments, you never feel how you think you're gonna feel. So if someone gives you a scene and you're whoever just died, you think you would cry. But then when that moment maybe happens in real life, you're laughing because you're so, like, unhinged. I don't know what it Is so. I. That song, to me, on so many levels, is. It's just beautiful.

A (82:42)

Yeah, well, I mean, let's be real. She feels nothing because the guy's a dick.

B (82:46)

Well, there's. There's that too. But I think on a. On a deeper level, when I was, like, re. Listening to it, I was. I was just making up my own interpretation, which is that it's like that. That acting choice is. Is never what you think it is. It's never the truth. But then on a funny level, it's obviously because he's an. And that's also very relatable because, you know, maybe that was Michael's way of putting his own music in the mirror, his own mirror image in the show.

A (83:10)

It's. They. So I know that that number comes directly from Priscilla Lopez, I think, at LaGuardia. And the teacher she had. And when someone told her that the teacher died, she said, good. And, like, everyone at the circle was like, how can you say that? That's a person who died? And she was like, yeah, and he wasn't a good person. And, like, especially not to me. It's that number. I think we all can relate to it. If you're an actor and you went to school for acting, having, like, a teacher who you just did not gel with, and rather than them acknowledging that it was. That it's oil and water being like, oh, you're not on. On my plane, then. Then you're never gonna make it. It's like, because I know. I know more. I know better. And, like, obviously teachers teach because they have. They have the knowledge, but for something like performing, it's a very. No person is the same. No person gets the. The to a point the same way. And everyone has different styles and everyone has different tastes. I don't know if I'll have this in the Avenue Q episode with Sam C. Mock or not, I haven't edited yet, but we had a teacher at Emerson who everyone was, like, super in love with. And. And it's very Mr. Carp from nothing, where it's like, everyone's like, oh, yes. I very much feel all the things you're telling me to feel. It's wonderful. And you're the lone asshole being like, I'm sorry, I'm not getting any of this. And I. In fact, I kind of think this is all stupid. Can I do something different? And rather than, like, embracing the idea of, oh, maybe this method doesn't work for you, it's like, oh, you don't like this method? Well, you'll Never make it.

B (84:40)

Exactly. We've all been in those classrooms where it's like, close your eyes, you're in the bathroom, you're brushing your teeth. That's not what you do when you're brushing your teeth. But when. When you. It doesn't fit your method. And like what you said, the truth is that. And I think it's true with anything else in life. Everything's subjective, and we all have our own ways. And unfortunately, in the arts, I don't know if you feel this way, but I find that in a lot of classes across the board, there are so many people that make the classroom their show and make it about them. Like this Mr. Carp versus making it about the students and teaching. And I have immense respect for teachers. And the best teachers are the ones that actually care about fostering their students and seeing what works for them, not the ones that are, you know, telling you the story about how when they were on set with this person and just giving you a monologue for an.

A (85:24)

Hour, you know, my Mr. Carp would not shut up about when he was on a soap opera. And I'm like, I couldn't give two shits.

B (85:30)

There you go.

A (85:32)

The best teachers, the ones who have a passion for the craft and want to share it with you, knowing that in the arts, we all have different ways of getting there. It's those who are like, my way is the only way and my taste is the only taste. Now, of course, I am, famously, I stick to my guns about my taste, but I'm also aware that my tastes are not everyone's tastes. So when I tell you have a.

B (85:53)

Podcast where you interview people, and so you're open to having conversations and listening to other sides too, you know, of.

A (85:59)

Course, at this moment, no one has either disagreed with me or changed my mind about anything.

B (86:03)

He just muted me, for the record. No, I'm just kidding. He's like, exit zoom.

A (86:07)

Exit zoom. No, I. No, I've definitely had guests who, you know, are not as either passionate about a show that we're covering as I am, or like, maybe they're more passionate than I am, and that's totally fine. It's always interesting to hear those perspectives because it can make you think differently about something. And a voice from down at the bottom of my soul came up to the top of my head. And a voice from down at the.

B (86:29)

Bottom of my soul here is a.

A (86:31)

Voice, what it said, this man is nothing. This course is nothing.

B (86:39)

If you want something, go find a better class. And when you most talented, I guess singers for the way we hold these screaming belters and mean girls and things to such a high standard these days. There are shows like A Chorus Line where you don't necessarily have to be, quote, unquote, the best singer. There are the. I guess I don't want to name people because I don't want to throw anyone under the best. But there are these really famous Broadway stars that don't technically have the best voice, but it comes down to the best storyteller. And so to see Glenn Close get so cracked out, I'm not knocking her voice.

A (87:13)

I'll say names. Bernadette Peters is not the greatest vocalist in the world, but the. But the emotion with which she carries through into her voice is what makes her so special. Yeah, no, I agree with you. I mean, the. My issue with the high belting singing, and I. I had a whole post about this that might have gone viral a year ago. No, no.

B (87:36)

Oh, snap. Crackle pop.

A (87:37)

Not crackle pop. It started with, I like to play a game when I see a Broadway show. It's, is this a good score or is the actor just singing high and.

B (87:44)

Or do they have notes or do they have nodes?

A (87:46)

But so much of, like, performance today for audience members and. And young fans, it's, you know, when it comes to acting, we're talking about this, like, with the acting teachers. It, you know, you can. Everyone can make a case for, you know, who's acting does this and who's acting does that. Because there's no metric system to measure it all. Singing, you can go like, well, they're a better singer because they hit a higher note much longer. It's like, are they a better singer? Like, they have a wonderful instrument. But, like, singing is more than just the notes you hit. It's the quality of your voice, the sound of your voice. The if there's anything behind the words you are singing. Everyone on this podcast knows how much. Carousel is my favorite musical. I hate singer firsts on that show. Even though it is a big score, it is an acting show. So the Billies I've seen, like, and I will throw him under the bus. Like, when I saw Nathan Gunn do it at Lincoln center with Kelli o' Hara as Billy Bigelow. I hated him. Him because there was absolutely no emotion behind any of his words. Like, soliloquy was just a vocal display. And I hated every second of it. Like, I need connection to it. And everyone in this show, in this original company of A Chorus Line, bringing it back to our topic.

B (88:59)

Yes.

A (88:59)

Very few of Them. Yeah. Very few of them have great voices. I mean, I think Donna has a wonderful voice and is definitely, like, one of the best vocal Cassies of all time. Like, Kelly Bishop doesn't have a great voice. Pamela Blair has a fine voice. That's not great. Priscilla Lopez has a very strong voice, but she's like, you know, she's not Patti LuPone. But there's a quality to each of their voices. There's an energy and a connection they have with the material that just makes it all work so well.

B (89:27)

You know, I think it's that storytelling first, like. Like we're saying, and audiences can sniff that from a mile away. I mean, I would even argue screaming now is kind of the trend. And everybody's singing so high, the pendulum always swings back the other way. So I'm sure we'll go way, really, really, really down, down Patrick Pagetown one day. But. But I feel like audiences, they can hear your range. So if you're singing at the top of it, it's impressive to them because you're at the top. If you're singing at the bottom, whatever. But if you're telling the story, it's just a whole different connection and a whole different level. And, I mean, there are people that remember Ben Platt, I guess, in Dear Evan Hansen breaking down and can't even sing the notes because he's not crying. And that hits you more than if he was maybe shedding a tear and belting it out, in my opinion, because it's.

A (90:11)

I was like, a little halfway. Like, I want. I always want everyone to be at a Ruthie Henshaw in the Les Mis concert level of, like. It's enough emotion that I believe it, but the notes are coming out, and they sound quite good.

B (90:22)

Yeah. See, I like a little snl. Kristen Wiig Friend Armisen on a Weekend Update. They're giving me the fake song that they're making up, but they're also cracking up and hysterically laughing. Absolutely.

A (90:33)

I. Oh, I will. I'll throw Mean Girls under the bus. Like, there are songs in Mean Girls that I. I don't like because it is them throwing it all out there at the beginning. And the poor actresses have to worry about the instrument rather than the craft because Jeff Richmond is like, okay, Apex predator. Barrett and Erica, here you go. D's and E's right out the gate. And I. I think the one number he does that actually builds in vocal pyrotechnics is World Burn. Like, starts off very low, and it builds to a higher. I don't I don't like how it ends. I think it ends a little, kind of, oh, I watched the world burn. Bam. Yeah. But it gets to that moment very, very nicely. I just think the button is bad. But she is on an elevator. She is on an elevator.

B (91:23)

They have her go up and down. Yeah, they do deal with that in A Chorus Line. These things we're kind of talking about, which are the standard artists are held to at these high levels, like Broadway. I mean, on a different level, it deals with just in entertainment in general, how they need to get surgery and look a certain way. I mean, there's all these standards that people have to deal with. And I think, too, that makes to get back to Chorus Line, you know, relatable, because they're showing how it's not really sustainable in a way, or people are telling them it's not sustainable and they'll have to retire by age 35, whatever it is. So it's interesting that it's still. It's still going on. I'm like, who's making these trends? Okay, taste makers, let's calm down.

A (92:03)

I know, but it's so interesting to see how they all sort of approach it. So, like, we get to. That we're talking about. The moment we're talking about is at the end of the show when Paul, who has had, you know, a very dramatic monologue, which hasn't aged as well, only because Intermission.

B (92:19)

Intermission. You mean just actually Paul's monologue. Some people call it intermission because that's when people go to the bathroom.

A (92:25)

But I go to the bathroom during that monologue. Oh, for the cast.

B (92:31)

Audience. I don't. I always find it to be very powerful. But there is a joke that people are like, if you've seen the show, that's intermission because it's just long and sad.

A (92:39)

Oh, if you. Oh, if you've seen the show. Yes.

B (92:41)

Maybe I've just heard. I've heard that I've heard.

A (92:43)

I can't imagine it's me. Yeah. I can't imagine seeing the show for the first time and going out at that monologue, because the show is it. The show teases Paul and the show teases Cassie. Really? Well.

B (92:52)

Yeah.

A (92:52)

Up until that moment. Like, we get hints that Cassie is someone different than everyone else in the line. And we get hints about Paul's life. That's not great. When? Oh, yeah.

B (93:02)

From the start.

A (93:03)

Yeah. Like when, you know, when he's singing who Am I Anyway? And then when Zach asks about his life and Paul's like, I don't want to talk about it. And you get, like, little pieces. Like, I had a sister who died. Like, I don't want to talk about this. And we have the. What am I going to say when he calls on me? Yeah. So, like, we. The show hints that, like, Paul's got something that's not as cute and it's not. But. And a lot of Paul's life still holds up as very tragic. The one thing that doesn't hold up as tragic is the drag, because now drag has become this, like, internationally recognized art form. Yes.

B (93:31)

I actually saw A Chorus Line with someone who's on Drag Race right now, which is really funny. Just at, like, a community theater.

A (93:37)

No way.

B (93:38)

Yeah, I see. I've actually never watched Drag Race, but I appreciate it. Amethyst. Amethyst. I don't know if you watch that sounds familiar.

A (93:46)

Yeah, I don't think. Yeah.

B (93:47)

And they play Paul.

A (93:48)

Good for them. Good. Good for them.

B (93:51)

Sorry.

A (93:52)

But so, you know, Paul, you know, dropped out of school young, was openly gay, was sexually abused by these strange men at the movies when he was a kid, and goes into drag. That was his entrance into show business. And his parents find out and all this stuff, and it's very sad. And then while they're learning a tau combination, because Zach is still stalling, he's not sure yet who he wants. He doesn't know if this audition has gone the way he wanted it to. Paul has the injury, the famous injury that Michael Bennett mimicked to get a reaction out of everybody and has to go off. And the question comes, what do you do when you can't dance anymore? And everyone has different responses? And it goes not beyond just dancing, but also, like, the career that they've had. Right. You know, who's gonna try to keep going in the line in the journey that they've had so far? And, like, Sheila's aware that there's an end to the road, but she's still gonna kind of try to ride it out as long as she can. She's, you know, she's about to turn 30. She's real glad. And I think she knows at this point she's not gonna become a Broadway star, but she can keep being employed in this line of work only for so long, get her eyes done, things like that. But then you have people like Val, or, first of all, you have someone like Don who's like, I want to go into directing. I don't want to just sing and dance anymore. I want to create stuff.

B (95:12)

Yeah.

A (95:12)

Then you have someone Like Val, who's like, truly a survivor. You know, she comes to New York and she knows that she's good, she's better than so many other people and realizes, okay, it's the way that I look. And rather than get upset about it, she goes, I can do something about that. I can change how I look and do that.

B (95:29)

That's the difference with people. That self awareness will get you so far. Because there are people that just won't admit to themselves. And if you won't admit that there's a certain problem, and I'm not saying look should ever be a problem, I think that's kind of like.

A (95:42)

That's a whole other conversation.

B (95:43)

Sure. But in general, you know, you can't fix the problem and work on it. Work on your notes or whatever it is if you're not aware of it.

A (95:51)

In order to. In order to make updates to the table, you have to first get a seat at the table. And someone like Val, who comes from the Midwest and you know, we learn an aunt was raped at a very young age and was an orphan. Like, you go through that stuff and you make it to New York and you're like, what am I gonna do? Go home? That. No, I'm gonna make this work for me. And I can't get pissy. This is the system that's in place. I'm gonna get myself in the system. Which she does. And it works. And she gets the job in this show. But she's taught when they're talking about, like, dancing, and she was, maybe I'll open up a studio. And other people are like, oh, I just want to get that.

B (96:26)

Yeah.

A (96:27)

Val goes, it's so great. But Val goes, yeah, you start taking acting class. She's like, I'm taking acting classes. And she's very honest. She goes, I'm not very good right now, but I am getting better.

B (96:36)

And you can talk, too, I think.

A (96:38)

Such a great line. She goes, no, it's fabulous when you learn you can talk too. Yeah, that was a great role, and I wish.

B (96:44)

A great role.

A (96:44)

And I wish people knew how to play her. Have you watched the documentary? Every little step.

B (96:50)

A long time ago. I was trying to re. Watch before this, but you got to pay for it and.

A (96:54)

Yeah, no, no, no, ma'. Am.

B (96:55)

He cheap. Not when I pay for all these other platforms. You know what I'm saying?

A (96:58)

Oh, no, ma'. Am.

B (96:58)

But I think it's on.

A (96:59)

I think it's on Broadway, hd. But I don't have that subscription, and I don't need It.

B (97:02)

Yeah.

A (97:03)

I don't need it. I don't need her.

B (97:05)

You're there. You're. You're in.

A (97:06)

We're in it. But it's so fascinating to watch them audition for the revival of A Chorus Line. And ironically, that documentary ended up was the sort of movie version of A Chorus Line that Michael Bennett wanted to make, because the movie that they made, they made absolutely without him because, you know, he sold the movie rights and had this developmental deal. Developmental deal at a movie studio, but basically just learned all they wanted to do is make a movie of A Chorus Line. They didn't really want him. And so when he was trying to make the movie, he wanted it to sort of be a meta version where it was people auditioning for A Chorus Line. So all the material from the show would be in the movie as audition project. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And the studio was like, no, we want A Chorus Line and the documentary. Every little step basically is the movie Michael Bennett wanted to make. But it's interesting watching people audition for these roles. And, you know, some of them have it in this in the rehearsal room, and then they get to the final callback and they just don't have it. And ultimately the role of Val comes down to. Oh, God, it's Nicole. I forget her last name, but she was Brooke Windham in Legally Blonde. I don't remember her full name. Forgive me, Nicole.

B (98:12)

No. But she's fantastic.

A (98:13)

She is great. And then the other one is Jessica Lee golden, who does get it.

B (98:17)

Yeah.

A (98:18)

And she's no. Comes from, like, New Jersey with no credits or whatever. She's an amazing dancer, but what ends up making person.

B (98:22)

Yeah.

A (98:23)

So kind. What makes her end up getting the role is Nicole thinks Val, because Val curses all the time. Val's got to be, like, a tough bitch. That's not who Val is. Val has the mouth of a sailor, but she's got the heart of a good person. Like, she's not tough. And the way that Pamela Blair plays her. And when you watch the video of the original company online or you listen to the audio of opening night, all the things she says, she says it with such earnesty. She's like, I look like a fucking nurse. She, like, realizes it to herself when she's. When she's talking about showing up to New York all in white, and she goes, I look like a fucking nurse. And Nicole, in the audition, she says it so, like, aggressive. She's like, I look like a fucking nurse. And they're like, you're not, like, street tough, you know, like, You're a survivor, but you're, you're, oh, you know, hyper energetic and you're positive. And then the way the Pamela Blair says about acting class, she goes, no, it's great. I mean, it's fabulous when you learn you can talk too. And that's what makes it funny. And I think that's what made Jessica Lee golden get it, is that she just was very simple about it.

B (99:25)

So good. And it's leaning into that opposite, which can be hard as a performer because you're like, it's all right here on the page. So it's hard not to just lean into that. But the best characters are the ones that lean into the opposite. They have the hard exterior, but on the inside that means there's something really tragic going on. Which they don't really tap into with Val in, in the show. They don't get into how like tragic her life or the person who it's based on might be a couple people, but whatever that life really was. But I think that's again, because she's at this one audition and maybe she's not necessarily going to go that far. So she goes to the. It's actually interesting. She doesn't go inward, she goes outward and she talks about her looks because it's too maybe tragic inside.

A (100:02)

Yeah, well, so that's in that number and. Which is never on any cast recording. It's not on the original. It's not in the revival cast recording. And the revival cast recording has the whole montage, which I love. Although the cuts to the montage and the OBC are still pretty iconic.

B (100:18)

But they always change the names too. Even in the City Setter version, they don't, they don't call them montages. They give them all different names, which is interesting.

A (100:25)

Yeah, I think it's like, hello, 12. Hello, 13. Hello, love. Yeah, nothing, mother, Nothing. Yeah, give me the ball. But when in. And while Bobby's doing his bit, which is so good, and we, we get into the inner monologues of people on the line figuring out like, okay, he wants to hear about my life. Like, what, what, what do I got? What do I got? And so we have Judy Turner, real name Lana Turner. She's like, she's like just trying to think of like, okay, like, any stories? Do I have any stories? And Richie's just thinking like, okay, like, if I'm next, what do I do? And Val reveals like a very tragic life, very matter of factly. Orphan at three, mother and dad both gone. Raised by a sweet ex con. And Then tied up and raped at seven.

B (101:07)

Yeah.

A (101:07)

And then she goes, nope, nope. Gotta keep it clean. Nothing too obscene. And so she does tits and ass. Which is it. It's, you know, about plastic surgery. And she's cursing, which was very. No. Revolutionary for the time to talk about it so openly in a musical. Yeah, but she's not talking about anything traumatic. It's that surgery is something that led to success for her. As you said, she's leading outward, not inward. And it's not that it's a lie. She's being very truthful and honest, but she's being very careful about what she reveals.

B (101:38)

Yes. Which so many people are in these scenarios, in these auditions or interviews or whatever it is. And that moment does get kind of brushed over. And I think it goes back to what you were saying. The truth about being raped and tied up and raised by an ex con. I think it all depends on who's playing it, because some people actually will laugh at that part. It's a funny thing. And then they hear the word rape and they're like, oh, wait, what just happened? So it's a very quick moment that I think a lot of people don't even remember about her. They just remember the tits in the ass. Cause it's this huge, funny number and so needed. I mean, it comes at a great time again.

A (102:09)

Yeah, it's so. Yeah. And I mean, I guess you could also, like, argue if you played it. Is Val actually going through her life in that. In that number and as it is, or is she just trying to think of a tragic backstory to tell? I think it's the truth, but I'm sure someone could be like, no, she's, like, trying to pitch in her head, like, okay, something. Yeah. What's like, the most. What's the most heartbreaking thing I could tell him? But that's not really who she is or what she's about. So.

B (102:36)

Yeah.

A (102:36)

And then, I mean, a lot of people share their truths that are embarrassing if not necessarily traumatic. Paul's is the only one that's, like, something that, like, stayed with him in a negative way.

B (102:45)

Yeah. And he gets actually used to something before that clicked with me, which is that him and Cassie are the parallels of the. Not necessarily the leads, but the people that they're teasing and that you're building up to. And it's interesting because I think Cassie getting the job works also because you need that yin and yang. So if she doesn't get the job, it's the same ending as Paul. He gets injured and it's also tragic. And you can't have those two tragic endings with these characters you've been kind of building up to.

A (103:14)

Yeah, that's absolutely correct. If Paul can't get the job, we at least need Cassie to get it 1,000%.

B (103:19)

Yeah. I think it's the Paul injury that makes Zach actually come down. Right.

A (103:24)

The first time Zach comes down after the opening is after Paul's monologue, and he gives him a hug. And then Zach is on stage.

B (103:30)

Yes. Okay.

A (103:31)

When they begin one, and then he goes off that. He goes back to the God mic while they're doing one. And that's when Cassie pops the head and keeps saying, stop popping the head, Cassie. Don't pop the head, Cassie. Because Cassie is trying to sell it. And she's been. We find out she's been a featured dancer. She went out to California to be a star, but she's not a star. She can't act. But she's had success, right? Yeah. Almost squeezed the roll of toilet paper. And she's a special. She's a. She's a dancer. She's a special dancer, but she's a dancer, and she's trying to sell the number. And Zach makes it very clear, I need everyone to blend. So every time she just extends it a little too high or she pops her head, he yells at her. He goes, nope, don't do that. And so he makes her do it again with the boys and then has her do it again until she's doing it like everyone else. And that's when Zach comes downstage to talk to her. And, you know, basically she berates him, being like, stop torturing me. Like, either, you know, treat me like everyone else or, you know, or cut me.

B (104:27)

And.

A (104:28)

And we. And everything that, like, he's having a problem with at the audition with her is his problem, not hers. She's just trying to book a job. She's really not trying to bring up the past of their relationship and his success.

B (104:39)

And.

A (104:39)

Yeah, and when he's. And he. He. It's clear that he treats the ensemble, the chorus, kind of at the bottom of the food chain like someone else of Broadway. Because when he shows Cassie, everyone dancing goes, is this what you want? And you kind of see them all marching forward, kind of like a Nazi kick line. It's meant to sort of be. Yeah, it's meant to be sort of be, like, tragic. But then Cassie looks at it, and she looks at him. She goes, yes, I'd be proud. I'll dance with any of them. They're all wonderful. I would be so happy to dance with them. And I love that she's done everything right.

B (105:08)

She has. And that's almost maybe why Michael Bennett himself didn't want Cassie's character to get it in the end, because he almost saw that as a tragic ending. Maybe if we're relating him to Zack, because this lead is like in the chorus line in that creepy way.

A (105:21)

Bennett looked at Cassie going into the chorus as a step back, but audiences looked at it as a starting over, like a. It's like a respawn. It wasn't, you know, losing a level and having to go back one. It was just a respawn of the whole game and starting anew.

B (105:32)

Do you think anyone's tried to make the musical that they're auditioning for?

A (105:39)

That's fascinating. What if someone wrote a musical and, like, this is what I imagine the musical A Chorus Line is auditioning for.

B (105:46)

Yeah, it's like Anne, Cassie, like, and Juliet kind of. It's like starting from the ending and birthing something from there. Maybe with Michael Bennett and I don't know. Who else could be the Shakespeare and the Anne Hathaway for going down the and Juliet route. I don't know. I think that's interesting. I also would love your thoughts on the. I happen to think A Chorus Line is one of the few shows that would really work and be fun to watch. And I guess it would depend who makes it, but would be great as a live musical. A live TV musical.

A (106:15)

Yeah. I think. I think you would have to alter some of the dialogue. Unfortunately for network tv, which I hate. I just haven't really liked any of the live musicals. But I would absolutely watch, like, a taping of it, like a professional films taping of that production in a theater, like a movie, like the way that Spike Lee did Passing Strange or something like that. Like, really just get in there and capture all of it. I would. I would. I would be there for that 1,000%.

B (106:41)

Yeah. And then I envision by the end, when they transfer to do the finale, they walk onto a different soundstage that actually. Well, it's a theater and actually is filled with an audience and a live audience, and then you kind of get to watch that. I don't know. I think that's one of the few ones that would be really fun to see up close.

A (106:54)

Yeah.

B (106:55)

It also would depend on how it's filmed. And my thing is, a lot of these musicals, they're too. I mean, I get it. You got to keep the musicality and the way it's cut, but they're too quick to kind of cut to these. These random shots of dancers. I want to see, like, I want to see the dance, you know, I want to see the choreo.

A (107:09)

Yeah, it's. You have to kind of look at it the way that Fosse would edit his dances in his movies of It's Less about. You want to keep the energy, obviously, in the editing, but also really remember where the focus is at, because there are some movies where the quick editing works. Like, I think the editing in Chicago makes sense. The editing in Dream Girls and Nine do not. Yeah, it's. It's just about finding, like, cool shots and cutting into that for a second. I'm like, but is that where our focus should be? You know, what's our focus?

B (107:40)

Yeah.

A (107:40)

Yeah. Where's the focus? Where's the energy?

B (107:42)

Chicago simply cannot do it alone. I'm like, why don't they slap that song into the Broadway productions? That's one of the best. I think that's one of the best moments in the movie when Catherine Zeta Jones is doing that whole number.

A (107:52)

Oh, yeah. Well, it's a great number. Wait, did you ask why they didn't put it in the show? It is in the show.

B (107:57)

I simply cannot do it alone. Is that in the Broadway version?

A (107:59)

Yes.

B (108:00)

Oh, maybe I blacked out when I saw it. I saw it a couple times.

A (108:03)

Yeah, you black out every time you see Chicago.

B (108:06)

It's hard.

A (108:06)

I'm seeing Chicago again for the first time in 24 years next week.

B (108:12)

Is the star power drawing you in? Is it a certain person?

A (108:16)

It is indeed. Speaking of Drag race, it is Ms. Jinx Monsoon, winner of All Stars 7 and Season 5. On that note, we have to take one more break. Oh, bye. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. And we're back. So, Bobby, Chorus Line competed in the 1976 Tony Awards. It became the longest running show in Broadway history until Kat's overtook it. Do you know the other three shows that were up against A Chorus Line that year? I don't think one. We just. We literally just mentioned one of them five seconds ago.

B (109:03)

Did we? Oh, Chicago.

A (109:05)

Chicago was one. Yes, one. Winning zero Tonys.

B (109:08)

No, Company was like, a year early.

A (109:10)

Or two early when he was five years earlier and won the Tony. But we have another. We do have another Sondheim musical this year.

B (109:17)

Oh, it's Sandy.

A (109:18)

It is Sandy wouldn't.

B (109:19)

It wouldn't be. Ah, give me a hint.

A (109:25)

It doesn't take place in America.

B (109:27)

I'm bad on the spot. It doesn't take place in America. It's Stephen Sondheim.

A (109:33)

It's a divisive one. It's not one of the most beloved.

B (109:37)

Ooh, Okay, I have a couple in my head. Should I just start shouting Sondheim shows on the rooftops?

A (109:43)

Yep.

B (109:43)

Not Assassins. Not Sunday in the park with George. Because that's kind of in France. Kind of? Well, I guess.

A (109:50)

I don't know.

B (109:53)

Sweeney Todd.

A (109:55)

Nope. Sweeney Todd is three years later.

B (109:58)

Damn, I'm bad with my ears. What is this?

A (110:00)

It is Pacific overshares.

B (110:03)

Oh, see, that's one of the ones I don't know. So I would never have gotten that.

A (110:07)

Yeah, yeah, it did win set design and costumes. Well, yes. This is how my brain works. Unfortunately, the fourth show is a four. Is a show called Bubbling Brown Sugar. I believe that's what I want to.

B (110:17)

Do after this bubble.

A (110:18)

You're gonna bubble brown Sugar? Yeah.

B (110:20)

And eat it. I'm a sugar fiend.

A (110:22)

I love sugar, especially brown sugar. It's so tasty. Makes good caramel with butter.

B (110:28)

You put that over some saltines or some crackers, then melt some chocolate, put it over that, put in the oven, you got yourself toffee.

A (110:35)

Absolutely. Oh, God, I love that. I also will do. If I'm making, like, waffles or pancakes and I have a banana around, I will take brown sugar, butter, and some sliced bananas and melt that together, and that becomes, like, a banana syrup. It's so good.

B (110:49)

Banana foster situation. You can put some chop, some, like, cinnamon on that. I love that. I'm gonna try that.

A (110:54)

Hallelujah, baby. Different show. Bubbling Brown Sugar was the fourth show. Corsine did have a revival, as we all know, in 2006 that ran for about a year and a half. It was decently received, but it was just such a museum piece. It was like that. And I know people who went into that revival later on, and they said that, like, Bob Avian and Biore basically were like, okay, so then you put your hand here on this line and. And do this at this moment. And it was, like, very meticulous. And I. I don't want to, you know, project. But I think when Bayork did the City center production, maybe she learned a bit from that Broadway revival. Like, I'm gonna still give the staging as it is, but, like, let, like, the actors, like, find their way into it rather than be like. And then Here, you put your pinky out on this moment.

B (111:39)

It was a brilliant production, I think the City center one. And there's rumors that it's going to come back for the anniversary, right?

A (111:45)

Yeah, there's rumors for the 50th anniversary. And I guess 20, 25, it'll come back, which I wouldn't be upset about. People talk about like, well, shouldn't we have new directors try it and new choreographers try it and. Yes, but again, because of the workshop creative process on this show, you know, all that staging is part of the. It's as. As vital to it as any of the writing because, like, moments in music would be written to partner with a piece of staging and a line would hit for a certain moment of lighting. Like, it's. There was no moment in the development of A Chorus Line that was like, okay, here's the full scene in song. Now let's stage it. It was like everything just sort of kind of happened in this weird orgy of creativity. And that original staging, it's not just iconic, but it's. It's just part of the fabric of the show.

B (112:39)

Yeah.

A (112:39)

And I just.

B (112:40)

I don't tangle that DNA.

A (112:42)

You really can. And like, I'm sure people have tried and I would love to see what they do, but you're never going to be able to unweave it. But I think people just want to make their mark, and I get that. But I think this is just a show. It's one of the few shows where it's like, just bring yourself to it and let. Let the show ride it out, you know?

B (112:58)

Yeah, exactly. I have seen it done with different choreo, and it's not my favorite. I haven't. I mean, it depends where you see it, but I haven't hated it, but I just think if you're gonna do that show, it's either you're doing it to uphold the story and tell the story and show the beautiful art to people, or you give it a totally new take. I mean, I don't know if there's any medium. I guess you could just do little changes in between, which I think City center maybe was like kind of that medium bridge, but I don't know. I wouldn't know until I saw it, I guess. 2020, I suppose.

A (113:31)

Yeah. I mean, still within the structure of. Of what's there. You can't really.

B (113:36)

I don't know.

A (113:36)

I'm just like, what would you reinvent? Like, the show just. It's there, it's there and you have to keep It. You have to keep it in the time period it's in. The sound of the show is very much the time period it's in. And the references and the way they talk about the industry, while it's universal, it's still rooted in that time. You wouldn't update Fiddler, right?

B (113:54)

No. But maybe that's why we can do the. The show of A Chorus Line.

A (113:58)

Maybe.

B (113:58)

Maybe we should run with that, see what it is.

A (114:01)

The show that's being auditioned for, auditioning for. Yeah.

B (114:04)

Yeah.

A (114:04)

They don't.

B (114:05)

I don't think they say the name of the show, do they?

A (114:06)

They sure don't. What would be a good name for the. For the fake show in A Chorus Line?

B (114:12)

Oh, it's got to be her.

A (114:14)

I don't know.

B (114:15)

It's glitters and gold. Yeah.

A (114:19)

Well, because. Yeah. This is what you call traveling. I don't know. I'm trying to find lines from one and be like, golden hour.

B (114:26)

Yeah, I guess just one or.

A (114:28)

Yeah.

B (114:29)

Sensation. I don't know.

A (114:31)

Singular sensation. I don't know.

B (114:37)

I mean, it could really be anything. The Golden Age.

A (114:41)

The Gilded Age. Now we're just getting. It's a Christine Baranski, here we go territory. Yeah.

B (114:45)

Oh, when's that coming back? Come on.

A (114:47)

I can't come late enough as far as I'm concerned.

B (114:50)

See, you know what it is? I. I call that a do something else while you're watching show. Like, it's easy to have it in the background. It's comforting. Not much happens quickly. So you could still stay up to date on it.

A (115:01)

Absolutely.

B (115:02)

It's like a Broadway red carpet. I mean, come on. You got all these amazing. You got burn. You gotta. Not Bernadette. Maybe she'll show up. Season two.

A (115:09)

Oh, my God. What would I do if part of the. Peter showed up?

B (115:12)

Did we just cast asked her. Why isn't she on that show?

A (115:13)

Actually, what is. What is Bernadette, Peter, so goddamn busy with that? She can't go into the Gilded Age and make me waste an hour of my life watching.

B (115:20)

She does a lot of. A lot of animal work. Okay. She's working with a lot of animals.

A (115:23)

I know.

B (115:24)

They're absolutely an amazing person.

A (115:26)

Oh, she's. She's a. She's a star on and off stage. We love her very dearly. Oh, yeah. And she doesn't go out in the sun. She's the palest of all time. Yeah. Palestine of all time.

B (115:36)

She's got that hair. That hair is ready. The hair has been the same since she came out. I don't know if she wears wigs or what, but she looks great.

A (115:43)

Well. And there's some dying going on there. Let's just be clear. There's a. That there's some dying in that. In that hair. It's fine. No shame in it. You do. You do. You. Sheila's gonna get her eyes done. Val got her boobs and butt done. No shame in it. If it's. If it's what you want, if it's your journey, that's your path. Yeah.

B (115:58)

Yes.

A (116:00)

If you were to be in A Chorus Line, do you have a role that you would like most? Want to play all of them?

B (116:06)

I would. See, I listen to that show, and I feel like I can be in it, and then I come back to reality. It would take a lot of work. Maybe I could do it one day. I don't know. But I think. I mean, Bobby seems like he would be so much fun. I think the female roles, depending on who's directing and what happens there, are definitely juicier and in my opinion, better. So listen, I don't know if they would.

A (116:33)

Well, the women have more. But the women have more songs, when you think about it.

B (116:38)

Yeah. It's like me. I mean, you know, from nothing to Vows, like, indelible song that just hits you over the head. Obviously, as an actor, I think Paul is. He's got the longest monologue. There's a lot to do there.

A (116:50)

Yeah.

B (116:51)

But I don't know how much more you can do that hasn't been done already. So.

A (116:55)

Yeah, I don't.

B (116:55)

Any of them.

A (116:56)

Yeah. I don't like it when actors openly weep during Paul's monologue, which is if. When you watch the documentary, that's what, like, Jason Tam does in his audition. And, like, it's. It's effective. It gets him the job. But I don't know, it's one of those things where, like, you gotta. We were talking about this earlier. Like, you don't come out at an 11. It's, you know, save the tears until the very, very, very last line when he says, that's the first time my dad called me his son.

B (117:23)

And what is true to that? I mean, what actually actor auditioning for a show wants to fall apart in front of this highly regarded director? Yeah, it's a lot of, like, I'm trying not to cry. I'm trying not to cry. I'm trying. And then you get lost in your story and whatever.

A (117:34)

One of the things that I take away from my high school drama teacher is he's. He said Very early on, and it's always stuck with me, is like, watching someone openly weep is not as interesting as watching someone try really hard not to cry. Like, yes. It's. They're on the brink and they just can't. And they, like, they're like. They won't do it. They won't let themselves do it.

B (117:52)

It.

A (117:52)

But do you know that they're fighting it.

B (117:54)

Exactly. It's the same with even. Like I mentioned SNL before. Watching them break and try not to laugh is the most entertaining thing. If they were just cracking up, it wouldn't be funny. But it's like the. Someone's doing. You're doing something, then you're acting. It's an action.

A (118:09)

Yeah.

B (118:09)

Trying to cry. Trying.

A (118:10)

Well, it's a famous Debbie Downer sketch where they're all cracking, but, like, they're trying so hard to soldier on with Lolo. With Lilo. Yeah. For sure. Who came back to us. Finally. She has returned.

B (118:22)

Merry Christmas. Jingle Bell Rock. Yeah, she is. Did you see it? How was it?

A (118:26)

What? Falling for Christmas. Yeah.

B (118:28)

Did you watch it?

A (118:28)

Of course I watched it. It's insane. It's stupid and insane. I loved every second of it.

B (118:33)

That's what I thought.

A (118:34)

Yeah. Oh, God. And, like, Santa might, like, be the reason why she gets a concussion slash amnesia. It's all wild.

B (118:40)

Damn.

A (118:42)

No, she doesn't have a twin. Just, you know, she. She gets proposed to on the top of a mountain in the middle of a snowstorm because that's what you do. And she falls and almost dies, but it just gets amnesia. And Court Overstreet, like, has an adorable daughter who's precocious and talks about how Christmas is a time for miracles. And I'm like, oh, God, here we go with the Jesus talk again. This girl that said, robert, this has been a delight. Thank you for coming on today. Thank you for having me. Of course. I can safely say we made it to the end of the episode and I still like you.

B (119:13)

Okay, good. I was wondering the whole time, and I. I have some hives that did break out on my thigh here that you can't see. But that's. That's good. That's the lotion I need. Okay.

A (119:20)

Maybe I want to be part of your world. So we close out with a game. It's two games, different names, but they are the same game. One is called Six Degrees of Sally Murphy, and the other one is called who Lives, Who Dies? Janine De Sori. They're both just six degrees of separation. So what, we're. What we got to do is we got to do a Six degrees of separation from the original production of A Chorus Line to both of these women now.

B (119:46)

Oh, wow.

A (119:47)

I can do selling.

B (119:48)

I'm familiar with these people.

A (119:50)

It's fine. I'll help you. I'm gonna do selling Murphy first because it's very easy, because. So we can't do replacements and we can't do the revival, but we can. We can do the original cast and we can do the creative team. So like Michael Bennett, Arvin Hamlisch, Robin Wagner, all that stuff. So I will say there's a pretty direct line to Sally Murphy in that. Robin Wagner, the set designer for A Chorus Line, also designed the set for the Wild Party on Broadway, which Sally Murphy was in. Bing bang boom.

B (120:17)

There you go. Bada bing, bada boom.

A (120:19)

Bada bing, bada boom.

B (120:20)

Thank you so much for playing for me. I'm gonna need your help.

A (120:24)

Of course. That's what I'm here for. Now. Now, unfortunately, we could. We could do a very easy one, but Kelly Bishop. With Kelly Bishop, but I don't think we can.

B (120:38)

Is this sacrilege? Am I. Am I a bad theater kid? What's this person's name?

A (120:41)

Kelly Bishop.

B (120:42)

No, I know Kelly Bishop.

A (120:44)

Janine Tesori.

B (120:45)

You're like. We've just been talking about Kelly Bishop for, like, two hours. Janine?

A (120:49)

Yeah, Tsori, the Tony winning composer of Fun Home.

B (120:54)

Oh, see, I. I haven't seen Fun Home, but I know who she is now. I know what she looks like.

A (120:59)

I've seen Kimberly Akimbo, Caroline. Or Chains. Sorry. Modern Millie. Shrek.

B (121:03)

What? It's Violet. Thoroughly Modern Millie. Loved it, saw it.

A (121:07)

But you didn't know her by name. Robert, you are what my listeners would call an uncultured, now bad. It's okay.

B (121:14)

Only fit so much up here, and there's a lot of, like, you know, dumb actor things, like, am I moving my face too much?

A (121:19)

You're. You're learning. You're learning, kid. It's fine.

B (121:23)

That's why I'm here.

A (121:24)

So we gotta. We gotta connect to Janine, to. Sorry. Part of me wants to do Kelly Bishop because I know she did Anything Goes with Sutton Foster, who did Millie and Violet with Janine, but Kelly was a replacement, and anything goes, and that does not count.

B (121:36)

That's not a direct line. Okay.

A (121:38)

Yeah, we could do. Well, actually, no, another easy one. Michael Bennett directed Dreamgirls with Sherri Lee Ralph, who is in Thoroughly Modern Millie, written by Janine Desori. So that's an easy one.

B (121:49)

That Definitely works. I'm literally Googling right now just so I have a cheat sheet and try and help you, but I don't think you need my help because, you know. Quite well versed.

A (121:57)

Thank you. Okay.

B (121:58)

You're a cultured.

A (121:59)

I'm a cultured do. Let's. Let's try one more.

B (122:02)

Okay.

A (122:02)

Do I want to do a cast member or someone on the creative team again, like Marvin Hamlisch, or do I want to do a cast member?

B (122:07)

Let's do a cast member.

A (122:09)

Okay. I don't know all of their work, so I'm gonna. Let's do Donna, because that's just. Donna's easiest.

B (122:17)

She's there.

A (122:18)

Yeah, she. Donna. Donna is around. Okay. Okay. Okay.

B (122:30)

Also, can you. You should develop an app for this. This is six.

A (122:34)

Six degrees. Okay. I'm sure there's something here. Okay. Donna McCackney.

B (122:41)

Actually, I don't know if that. That's not a direct way, but didn't.

A (122:45)

Yeah.

B (122:45)

Didn't Fun Home also win a Pulitzer Prize?

A (122:48)

They were a finalist. They did not win, unfortunately.

B (122:50)

Oh, okay.

A (122:51)

They lost to the flick, and I'm still pissed about it. Whatever.

B (122:56)

They didn't ask me that, but I read it. It was fun. But it wasn't a home.

A (122:59)

No, it wasn't a home. It was not a home. You know what they say. A flick is not a home. Okay. Donna McKechnie was in on the Town with Bernadette Peters. That's. That's one degree. Bernadette Peters was in. Okay. Was in. You want to do Sunday, or do I want to do into the Woods? Or do I want to do Goodbye Girl? Okay, we'll do Sunday. So we have. Okay, we have Donald McKechn, who was in on the Town with Bernadette Peters, who did Sunday in the park with George. In Sunday in the park with George, we have. Oh, well, actually, no, here we go. We have Robert Westenberg, who was in Secret Garden, and Randy Patinkin, who was also in Secret Garden. Oh, okay. And Janine Desori did, I believe, the dance arrangements, as well as music, directed Secret Garden. So that is our Janine Dsori connection right there. And I will not. Yes. I will not hear any words against it. So.

B (124:05)

I mean, you literally won't, because I. I just told you. Yes, I did Google her name and A Chorus Line, and she's. She's done shows where Chorus Line started. I mean, there are some things that come up. Yeah, but I think you handled it, and I think.

A (124:21)

Yes, well, yeah, she has done. I think now three Shows at the Public. She Did Caroline or Change, Fun Home and Soft Power. But we don't really do that kind of connection. We have to make it people. The people.

B (124:33)

Yeah, it's, it's more intelligent than that. I get it.

A (124:36)

Robert. Where can people find you if you want them to find you?

B (124:40)

They can find me on 54 West. No, you can find me on social media everywhere. Pretty much. Instagram at Rob Peter Paul. Twitter at Rob Peter Paul. I am on the Tic Tac, the Tac Tac. I've got a little cuckoo on there at Robert Peter Paul. I think you can also find the Art of Kindness podcast on the Broadway Podcast network or anywhere you stream podcasts, which is a, a fun, weird, positive time. So come on down and see us there too.

A (125:07)

Come on down. You can follow me on Instagram at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, give us a nice 5 star rating or review. It's been a minute, but then again, I also know it's been a minute since we recorded some episodes. Join us next week when we cover God knows what because we're doing this whole thing out of order. But it will be a wonderful time none the less. Robert. We close out every episode with a Broadway diva. I'll put her in post when I edit this thing. Yes. And I'd like to kind of connect it to the show. So we could always close out with Priscilla Lopez or with Donna or we could close out with somebody else from the show or connected to the show. Who would you like to have us close out with? Or it doesn't have to be connected to the show in any way. Who would you like to close out with today?

B (125:52)

Oh, it doesn't have to be connected to the show.

A (125:54)

It doesn't have to be. I, I usually like to make it connected. It also, it narrows down the options because the options are so many.

B (126:00)

I know there are so many options. I mean, we, we've got a lot of big Broadway divas coming into my head. I would say let's connect it to A Chorus Line. Why don't we close it out with Robin Herder?

A (126:12)

Oh, okay.

B (126:14)

Since she was in the version I kept talking about this whole time and I think she's going to be a Broadway diva one day.

A (126:19)

I mean, she's a Broadway diva in my head. She just needs the right vehicle. I guess you found a way for me to include A Beautiful Noise onto this podcast. Ah, yeah, yeah. Because she, she do have some solos in that show. A Beautiful Noise is what I like to Call it a beautiful way to waste. Robin Herder.

B (126:36)

Oh, she also did my friend Jay's Hocus Pocus Halloween show, which every. Everyone should check out is a great time. She has a great solo in there that you could maybe pull something from.

A (126:44)

She is so incredibly talented. She is. She dances like a motherfucker. She's such a good singer. She's a really wonderful actress. And she's got these eyes where she looks at you and you just know she could break you in half sexually. And I'm like, do. Please do.

B (126:58)

Yeah, she's intense. I actually, at that Halloween show, her mic wasn't working, and the look she gave to whoever was running sound, I was glad I was not that person. But it was. It was a moment. It was the scariest thing at that Halloween show, I should say.

A (127:10)

Did you see Beautiful Noise? Have you seen Beautiful Noise? Will you see Beautiful Noise? You don't need to. You don't need to.

B (127:15)

I'm a fan of, like, the music, but yeah. Yeah.

A (127:20)

There'S a lot. There is a lot to see. There's other. And everyone in the show is very talented, but we look forward to their next gig. Point is. So let's close out with.

B (127:31)

Yeah, she just popped, and I knew you liked her, so I think that's a good choice. I do.

A (127:36)

She's great. Yeah. Thank you so much again for listening, guys, and have a great rest of your week. Take it away, Robin.

B (127:41)

Bye.

A (127:58)

And forever in blue jeans.