A STREETCAR NAMED DESIRE w/ Juan A. Ramírez

Summary

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Broadway Breakdown — "A STREETCAR NAMED DESIRE" w/ Juan A. Ramírez

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Juan A. Ramírez
Date: October 31, 2024

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Main Theme & Episode Purpose

This episode of Broadway Breakdown, hosted by the passionately opinionated Matt Koplik, welcomes back theater writer Juan A. Ramírez to deep-dive Tennessee Williams’ immortal classic A Streetcar Named Desire. Part of the "Grab Bag" series where Matt covers listener-submitted, randomly chosen shows, this episode delivers an irreverent, analytical, and gloriously queer re-examination of “Streetcar,” its stage and screen legacies, acting challenges, and enduring queer appeal. If you love passionate tangents and spicy takes about Broadway icons, acting choices, and the messiness underlying American classics, this is a must-listen.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Opening Banter & Broadway’s Sweaty Men

• The show kicks off with a riff on Streetcar’s iconic “kindness of strangers” line, segueing into “streetcar as sweaty, sexy, violent men” territory.
• Matt and Juan reflect on their pattern of discussing shows with violent and/or troubled men (e.g., American Psycho, Jekyll and Hyde, West Side Story).
  • Quote: “Another show about, like, heaving, sweating men.” (Juan, 01:00)
  • “Some men be stabbing in West Side Story... Dreams are killed in this one.” (Matt/Juan, 01:43)
• They briefly touch on current Broadway casting news and gay Twitter lore.

2. First Encounters & Production History [03:10–08:36]

• Juan first saw the film as a teen with his mom and grandma: “Had a visceral reaction... affects my further engagement with it.” (Juan, 03:10)
• Shares a wild story from the Gillian Anderson London revival (St. Ann’s transfer): a physician was called onstage, and Anderson had to exit “like Grandpa Simpson leaving the brothel.” (Juan, 03:49)
• Both hosts reflect on encountering the play in high school, family quirks around censorship, and how teachers grappled with the play’s sexuality and violence.

3. Tennessee Williams: The Gay Appeal [02:06–07:15]

• Williams’ playwright status is situated in “the canon,” but he gets a special nod for his relevance to queer audiences.
  • “Trying to think of another playwright that does so much for the gays.” (Matt, 02:22)
• The hosts gleefully gossip about rumors of Williams’ wild personal life, gayness, and his particular brand of “melodrama and fucking.”
• Importance of fun, sex, and heightened emotion in Williams’ work vs. bloodless, cold, “serious” modern productions.

4. What A Streetcar Named Desire is About [12:08–15:20]

• Juan gives a sharp, funny plot synopsis:
  • “A beautiful Southern belle named Blanche pulls into the Elysian Fields... kind of aghast at the sweaty ground-floor apartment living... Immediate odds with Stanley, salt of the earth, Marlon Brando-type, tight T-shirt, getting naked. Doesn’t care... Follows their clash until Blanche loses her grip on reality.” (Juan, 12:08–14:07)
• Explores themes of class, sexuality, illusion vs. realism, mental decline, and misogyny.
• Notable motif: Blanche’s fear of harsh light, representing aging and the tension between illusion and reality.
  • “Famous line in the play: ‘I don’t want realism, I want magic.’” (Juan, 15:20)

5. Comparing Interpretations & Performances [15:31–30:50]

• Vivien Leigh in the 1951 Film: Universally praised as the definitive Blanche, with Brando’s “method” Stanley serving as a stunning acting contrast.
  • “It’s fabulous... the clash of a grand dame and new acting realism helps the story.” (Juan, 17:12)
  • “Vivien Leigh’s casting... is so meta and brilliant.” (Matt, 18:16)
• Discusses other Blanches: Jessica Lange (emergence of her “Ryan Murphy” Southern persona), Ann-Margret (too much grit), Nicole Ari Parker, and differences in acting methods.
• The infamous 2005 Natasha Richardson/John C. Reilly Broadway revival, which bucked the “hot Stanley” tradition.
• Importance of casting—how the character of Stanley is shaped by actorly choices, especially physicality and raw sexual charisma.

6. On Tone: Camp, Realism, and the Queerness of Williams [33:18–36:14]

• Williams is not just “serious” — he created high-literary melodrama with camp, sex, and “sweaty bad choices.”
  • “Trashiness… is part of his appeal. If you make it bloodless, you’re missing the point.” (Juan, 33:18)
• Poetic language, Southern excess, and the suggestion that Williams’ works are “molasses but sound like meringue” (Matt, 36:14).
• Tangents on later Williams’ works: Sweet Bird of Youth, Orpheus Descending, Night of the Iguana.

7. Legacies of Film, TV, & Stage Adaptations [41:38–54:13]

• The Hays Code–mandated change to the film’s ending, which softened the play’s ruthlessness and, according to Matt, “is anti–the point of the play.” (Matt, 25:57–26:11)
• How Blanche’s sexuality, mental unraveling, and trauma are depicted across versions.
• Wild audience reactions: the 2012 all-Black revival at the Broadhurst led to laughter at scenes, even rape, “which should not be a gotcha rape.” (Juan, 55:27)

8. The Role of Queerness, Sex, and Shame in Blanche’s Character [65:16–71:56]

• They examine Blanche’s backstory with her gay husband, his suicide, and her subsequent spiral into shame and sexual acting out.
  • “She blames herself for her husband killing himself because he needed compassion and she didn’t give it.” (Matt, 67:30)
• Compare Blanche’s “mental lock” on her husband’s youth/innocence to Humbert from Lolita.
• Blanche as proto-Norma Desmond, struggling with fading youth, delusion, and a toxic yearning for validation.

9. Casting Fantasies and Contemporary Stagings [81:20–90:06]

• Tangents on dream casting: Rachel McAdams as Blanche, Florence Pugh as Stella, and “dad bod” Andrew Burnap or Yahya Abdul-Mateen II as Stanley.
• Is sex appeal necessary for Stanley? What does it mean if he isn’t “objectively hot”? “To make an audience want to fuck Stanley and then not…” (Matt, 62:54)
• Discursive, hilarious debate on the shortage of magnetic male stars in the Broadway ecosystem and nomination lists (91:29-94:56).

10. The Musicality, Language, and Adaptational Reach of Streetcar [108:40–112:38]

• The poetic language, inherent musicality, and why the play’s atmosphere is so critical (“you need someone who can give you rawness and float the poetry” - Matt, 85:03).
• They touch upon operatic and ballet adaptations—including the André Previn opera and Audible’s Williamstown Festival audio play with Audra McDonald and Carla Gugino.

11. Key Scenes & Pivotal Moments to Nail Onstage [113:34–117:14]

• Stella/Blanche’s post-sex morning scene: “the most fun...if staged poorly, it hurts the play” (Juan, 113:34–115:07).
• Blanche’s entrance: “Hard to come in fragile and not seem mannered...The whole challenge of the role.” (Matt, 114:25)
• Blanche/Mitch date scene as a microcosm—sensuality, strength, vulnerability, illusion.
• Importance of “be good and keep my hands off children” moment, examining Blanche’s brokenness.

12. Stella’s Role & Legacy [132:31–140:21]

• Stella as “the most real” yet least debated, essential as audience’s anchor for Blanche/Stanley’s extremes.
  • Her choice to stay with Stanley—“What does that say about us as a society…if even our level-headed people stick with the toxic?” (Matt, 139:54)
• Noted that Stellasmay be more Tony-nominated than Blanches, as her steadiness offers a recognizable acting showcase.

13. The Larger Legacy of Streetcar and Williams [147:33–151:28]

• Williams’ work as an acting touchstone for method, character study, and American realism.
• The queer legacy: “Williams gave audiences hotties to ogle, but secretly put straight audiences in their place.” (paraphrased, 26:09)
• Discussion about how new plays haven’t matched Streetcar’s erotic energy, and a call for more sex (and messiness!) on Broadway.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Every time I check a Playbill, someone on it was in The Inheritance… Did they need to be there?” (Juan, 86:31)
• “Blanche is not a diva role… She doesn’t get to be the Princess Kabinova.” (Matt, 120:14)
• On Tennessee Williams: “There’s always something so fun and juicy… it’s always fun to discover that one of the masters was this huge faggot.” (Juan, 145:14)
• “Williams’ dialogue is like a sweaty rose that’s sitting in a vase of bourbon.” (Matt, 85:03)
• “Don’t play Stanley like ‘Hello, Little Girl’ from Into the Woods.” (Matt, 80:44)
• On Streetcar in pop culture: The Simpsons musical parody, Oh! Streetcar!—“You can always depend on the kindness of strangers…” (multiple, 00:00; 140:21; closing parody)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–02:02 — Opening banter; Blanchisms; intros
• 03:10 — Juan’s first encounter with Streetcar/early influences
• 12:08 — Plot summary & themes
• 15:31–18:39 — Performance comparisons (Vivien Leigh, Brando, etc.)
• 25:57–26:11 — On the Hays Code/altered ending
• 53:47–54:13 — 2012 Broadhurst all-Black revival and audience reactions
• 65:16–71:56 — Blanche’s tragic backstory—gay husband & blame
• 81:20–90:06 — Dream casting tangents; state of male stardom
• 108:40–112:38 — Musicality, opera/ballet/audio adaptations
• 113:34–117:14 — Pivotal staging moments and acting challenges
• 132:31–140:21 — The puzzle of Stella
• 147:33–151:28 — Williams’ legacy, method acting, and calls for more “lust” on Broadway
• 140:21–142:06; 00:00 — Simpsons musical references (“Kindness of Strangers” song)

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Tone, Style & Takeaway

Matt and Juan deliver the unpredictable, hilarious, explicit, and erudite conversation listeners have come to crave from Broadway Breakdown. The language is earthy ("fisting at the Ramrod," "Hot as fuck," "riding more hog than John Travolta"), with irreverent and incisive wit layered over scholarly takes. The show is unapologetically queer, opinionated, and deeply invested not just in Broadway’s history, but in what these stories and roles mean in the present.

If you’re new to Streetcar or just want a raucous, insight-packed queer theater salon, this is essential listening—and this summary has the juicy bits without the ad breaks.

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Final Thought

"Go see the movie. Go see the Lange. Go see it on YouTube...download it, because as soon as it becomes unprofitable for streamers to have old movies on there, they’re gonna take them away. So download onto a DVD and keep a DVD player." (Juan, 152:18)

Streetcar continues to demand new interpreters, new actors to be broken and break others, and a new embrace of all its lust, sweat, camp—and tragedy.

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Transcript

[Juan Ramirez]

I have always depended on the kindness of strangers.

[Matt Koplik]

You can always depend on the kindness of strangers to buck up your spirit.

[Juan Ramirez]

And shield you from dangers. Now here's a tip from Brad. You won't regret all strangers.

[Matt Koplik]

Just don't fret.

[Juan Ramirez]

You haven't met.

[Matt Koplik]

You have. Hello all you theater lovers, both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back. Welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Grab Bag and it is covering shows that you submitted and I picked out of a bowl. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is friend of the Pod. You know his writing in the New York Times for Theaterly. If you follow his Instagram, you know him from the thirst of that. Please welcome back Juan Ramirez.

[Juan Ramirez]

Hi, glad to be back. Discussing how you said it like another show about, like heaving, sweating men.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep, yep, Another. This is our second show together about sex and sweaty men who don't always do the best of things.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right, But. And also we're recording on the heels of a big Michael what's his name announcement. Oh, my God, he's gonna be an elf.

[Matt Koplik]

Michael Hayden.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, Michael Hayden.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh. Oh, you better believe my DMs were flooded. People were like, oh, are you so excited? It was like, why would I not be? It's also great casting. Yeah. I also realized that a lot of the shows that were picked out of the bowl for this, for this Grab Bag, there are a lot of shows where it's men killing people. And granted, Streetcar doesn't have a man killing anybody, but it is a violent man for sure. But we also have covered American Psycho, Jekyll and Hyde. We're covering A gentleman's guide to love and murder. Some men be stabbing in west side Story. Sure, yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Dreams are killed in this one.

[Matt Koplik]

Illusions shattered 1000%.

[Juan Ramirez]

The flowers strewn about for the dead.

[Matt Koplik]

So many flowers for the dead. So, Juan, what are we talking about today?

[Juan Ramirez]

Today we're talking about A Streetcar Named Desire by Tennessee Williams.

[Matt Koplik]

Ever heard of her?

[Juan Ramirez]

I was trying to think of a cute like Tennessee. All loads welcome Williams, but I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know. I mean, kinda which I would say other than William. How do you say his name?

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, from.

[Matt Koplik]

From Picnic and bust out like, I'm trying to think of another playwright that does so much for the gays.

[Juan Ramirez]

I had a semi viral tweet about Jerry Nolodes. Refused Herman. That's also and then people like old queens in my DMs were talking about like stories of him getting fisted at the ramrod back in the day. And I was like, that is great.

[Matt Koplik]

It's always the queens you don't expect. The ones who write the wholesome tunes for mother that are at the meat racket Fire island getting spit roasted.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right, Right. Well, you put mother to bed and then you have the whole evening.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. I don't know about Tennessee Williams getting spit roasted, but I'm sure that man was put on a lazy Susan and spun around at many of Harvey. That's just, that's like my go to image, which I think I stole from Di Mommy die. But that's just me being a gay. Streetcar Named Desire. What is your history with this show?

[Juan Ramirez]

Okay. I think I first saw the film late middle school, early high school, weirdly, a little past my phase of being a precocious like 10 year old watching movies I had no business watching. Washed it. I think of my mom and grandma. Loved it. I had to just sort of like visceral reaction to that text in a way that we can get into later about how that affects my like, further engagements with it. Loved it. And then I saw the Blair Underwood revival. Oh, on Broadway with my mom. Had a weird experience there.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I want to hear more about that later.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah. And then after that, well, I read it in high school, I think in between those two things. And then I saw the St. Anne's transfer of the Young Vic production with Jillian Anderson, which was crazy because the show is already like 2:45. Started half an hour late, and then it was so smooth how this happened. But there's maybe 30 seconds of play of like street sounds going on before Jillian makes her big entrance in a trench coat and like, you know, rolling her little away suitcase in. And then she rolls onto stage and immediately a PA comes out and says, I'm sorry, is there a doctor in the house? Like one of the people in the cast is just had a stroke or something and we don't have understudy. Can someone please come check on it? As this is going on, Jillian does the most, just the smoothest sort of about face and rolls right back out of the theater in a way that like, if you know the. The video of Grandpa Simpson like walking into the brothel and walking right back out when he sees the bar. Perfect. Then from that, I don't know, just Tennessee Williams. Stan?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah? Is this your favorite Tennessee Player? Do you have a different one?

[Juan Ramirez]

I think so. I mean, there's Things to be said about Suddenly last Summer, which is, you know, the one play I know of that where someone gets eaten by a pack of wild Italians.

[Matt Koplik]

It's also the. I don't know if it's the only. But it's definitely the first Tennessee Williams play to get adapted to a movie with basically no changes.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right, okay, interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because homosexuality gets punished in that one. You get eaten by locals.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, the locals.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah. And not in the way that you do at Fire Island.

[Juan Ramirez]

The locals are, of course, like the good people of Amalfi or wherever. The.

[Matt Koplik]

Like the good children and street urchins of Amalfi. Yes, it's. Yeah. I've never read Suddenly last Summer. I saw the movie, which I love. Just, it's. That movie is such camp, but like also gives the gays what they want. Like you give Elizabeth Taylor and Katherine Hepburn just like these diva roles and Katherine Hepburn having maybe the best entrance in a movie of all time.

[Juan Ramirez]

Sure, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Where she. Where you hear her disembodied voice from up above and then she just descends in a giant dumbwaiter.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I think I've loved. Well, you know what? I'm not going to say I've loved everything of his I've seen or every staging of his I've seen because I saw that God awful theater for new audience production of Orpheus Descending a year or two ago, which was. I don't think anyone should ever lean into the thought experiment of what did we did Williams, Seriously. And without sex and just, you know, the play. I'm like, no, no. Like there have to be, you know, heaving bosoms and like chest air.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. Who is in that Orpheus Descending?

[Juan Ramirez]

It was not Chris Abbott. I think he was supposed to be in it. And then I would assume he dropped out to be in Danny and the Deep Blue Sea.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

It was Pico Alexander, who I'd only known from this ridiculous Reese Witherspoon rom com. Home Again and Maggie. Maggie Siff is her name Right then. And she was in a stage play.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. You're great.

[Juan Ramirez]

It's just truly like the most bloodless cold production I've ever seen. And it was so boring.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Which is.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I've said this about Shakespeare, I've said this about Sondheim. I feel the same way about Williams. Like, you gotta have some fun with it. Yeah, it's definitely. The man did melodrama and he did fucking like that was his big thing. And when it worked well, it was just so incredible. This is not Long day's journey in tonight.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Everybody's sweaty, everybody's horny, and everyone's drinking whiskey and using language that no one actually uses. But it works in the world of the play. Yeah, my dad, I think his favorite play is Cat in a Hot Tin Roof, just for the use of the word tenacity.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right, Right. Wait. Mendacity.

[Matt Koplik]

Mendacity. Sorry, why isn't tenacity something else? Mendacity. He loves them. And anytime we have dinner, he always goes mendacity. Yeah. Streetcar. Is it my favorite. Williams. I've never gotten to see it live, is the thing.

[Juan Ramirez]

Really?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Okay. I was introduced to Streetcar pretty young as well. I come from the cultured family that had very weird moving rules of what was censored. For me, this was not considered one worth censoring, I think, because, like, objectively, it's not that upsetting. It was very scandalous for the time it came out. But the movie version, for like a 12 year old, there's nothing objectionable. Just making out in black and white. And then we read it in 11th grade and I still have my copy. If we end up using any video here today, you can see, here's my copy. I've held onto it ever since. And then I don't think I ever watched another version outside of people doing it in class and college until the Gillian Anderson broadcast of the production that you saw during lockdown.

[Juan Ramirez]

What scenes would people do?

[Matt Koplik]

It was usually the Stella Blanche scene the morning after the Stella bit where they're talking about Stanley breaking all the light bulbs with her shoe and stuff like that. That was done a couple of different times and never to the satisfaction of our teacher. And it was the epitome of a dude who actually was correct about what these students should be trying to reach out. But he was such a pompous piece of shit that he didn't communicate it well. And so they just kept getting more and more cerebral about it because he kept talking about it in all these not emotional but like technical terms. He was like trying to talk about emotion and sex in a very cerebral way. And so they just got more academic about it. And so the whole thing just got colder and colder and colder. And then they got frustrated because he kept being like, you're not getting it. I'm like 20 years old doing this scene. For this podcast, I did rewatch the original movie after watching the Jessica Lange Alec Baldwin Diane Lane TV movie and the Ann Margaret Treat Williams TV movie and doing some research on the Broadway revival in the 90s with Alec Walton and Jessica Lange. I remember in 2005, 4, when Natasha Richardson did it on Broadway, I didn't see it, but. But I went back to check out the message boards about it again, because message wars in the early 2000s were a wild time, and people had a lot of opinions about her casting, about John C. Reilly's casting as Stanley. And then everyone was very. It was like a line drawn in the sand when that show opened of, like, you either understand what the production is doing or you don't. And people being like, you either know that this is shit, or you're, like, spending hours trying to justify it for yourself.

[Juan Ramirez]

Interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And people are odd. People are very strange.

[Juan Ramirez]

The Playbill cover looks bad. I'll say that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And the photos look bad. And I love me some Natasha. But, like, the general thinking was she had a very specific group of people who were all for her Blanche. And then a much larger group that was like, absolutely not. And then also just like, absolutely not about this entire production. The only person who got across the board, positives was Amy Ryan as Stella.

[Juan Ramirez]

Totally. Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's like, one of the few Tony nominations that production got. But, yeah, when John C. Reilly was announced, it was this giant conversation of, like, who is Stanley supposed to be? What are we supposed to expect from the actor playing him? And ultimately, because that casting was viewed as a failure, we sort of just went back to the Brando mold.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right, right, right.

[Matt Koplik]

But I would be interested to see if we could try something different again with it.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right. Because do you think, like, that casting is everything with Williams? Because I was so hesitant and I didn't see it, but apparently everyone loved Paul Mescal did it recently.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, right.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah. I mean, I buy him and his strength as an actor, but I don't know if that's who would jump out at me.

[Matt Koplik]

It's not necessarily.

[Juan Ramirez]

He's not. Not Jack o' Connell or not Jack Connell. What's the name? Ben.

[Matt Koplik]

Ben Foster.

[Juan Ramirez]

Ben Foster. He's not. Not Ben Foster. So I could see it working.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's not so much that I don't trust that Paul could do it. I'm not sure if I trust Rebecca Frecknell as the director. But also, to be fair, the only other thing of hers I know is this curtain Cabaret. So maybe her Streetcar is great. Who's to say? I don't know. So for all of our uncultured fucks, one, especially for this episode, if they don't know, they are truly uncultured, what is A Streetcar Named Desire? About what is her plot.

[Juan Ramirez]

Okay. The Streetcar Named Desire. You start with a sort of very out of place woman in like, you know, her, like, her Southern belle attire. Pulling up to the. I almost said Harmonia Gardens, what is called Elysian Fields.

[Matt Koplik]

Elysian Fields, yes.

[Juan Ramirez]

She's looking. Her name is Stella. I'm sorry, Blanche.

[Matt Koplik]

Blanche dubois.

[Juan Ramirez]

Not only am I an uncultured fuck, I'm, you know, making everyone less cultured as I go along.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, to be fair to you, Stella is the first one in the play, but it's Blanche in the movie first.

[Juan Ramirez]

And it's perhaps the most famous name in the thing.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's the most famous character name in probably all of American theater, even though she's not the lead of the play.

[Juan Ramirez]

Well, anyway, a beautiful Southern belle named Blanche pulls into the Elysian Fields after having ridden A Streetcar Named Desire into it. She's looking for her sister Blanche, and she is sort of aghast at the sort of sweaty ground floor apartment living conditions that she has for herself with her husband Stanley, who is Polish, which I guess in the 50s was like, as just subhuman. I don't know from what she talks about him. She is there because her. Their mother has just died.

[Matt Koplik]

No, long dead. Yeah. Their whole family's been dead for a while. She's there because she got. We find out later, she got fired from her job and basically run out of town.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right. She got fired from her job, run out of town. This is on top of having lost the family plantation, Bella Reeve, which translates to, you know, beautiful dream, buried Tennessee Williams. So sort of like that. The dubois family has been in decline for a while, and Bland's just sort of desperately trying to hold on to that. She's still, you know, sort of like pearl clutching at, you know, Tella, how could you live in these conditions? And she immediately is at odds with Stanley, who's this very sort of salt of the earth, you know, Marlon Brando in a tight tank top, tight T shirt, like, you know, getting naked in front of everyone. Doesn't care. He's just sweaty. He's whatever. He's going through his day. And you just sort of follow them in the few weeks that she stays with them until there's inevitably a clash between Stanley and Blanche. And Blanche sort of loses her grip on reality.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

She also flirts with an affair with one of Stanley's friends, who's sort of this nice guy, bumbling idiot type. And that sort of, you know, hints at a salvation at like, a landing place for her to, you know, finally snap out of the fact that she doesn't. She no longer lives in the gallant south, but she must sort of make a living for herself.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And that she also is not the.

[Juan Ramirez]

Virginal, like, heroine of the thing.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Juan Ramirez]

She thinks herself to do.

[Matt Koplik]

She's not the debutante she once was and probably never really was.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Yeah. So that character Mitch, we sort of get the idea that he is a nice guy. He's a respectful guy in a lot of ways. He also is just like any other man. And ultimately, Blanche puts on the airs of, like, I only kiss men until, like, I know they want to marry me. And I do this whole thing. And she also has this thing about light. She never wants to be seen in bright lights, always in the dark, in the shadows. She puts paper lanterns over all the light bulbs. She says, oh, to create magic, to create mystique and illusion. But the truth is that she's older than she is willing to admit and doesn't want anyone to see her natural age. She wants them to see her through basically a filter.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right. Famous line in the play. I don't want realism, I want magic.

[Matt Koplik]

She wants magique. Yeah. Blanche would have loved Instagram filters and hashtag livingmybestlife.

[Juan Ramirez]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's fascinating. So of the versions you've seen, including research for this, do you have a favorite interpretation and then do you have specific performances maybe from different interpretations that, for you are like the ultimate.

[Juan Ramirez]

I mean, you know, like, God, the one we have on film is so incredible. It is pretty great. And I was reading this morning Arthur Miller's intro to, I think, like the widely available, not Samuel France, but just like the widely available version of the play you can find at bookstores anywhere. And he says that 60 years on or whatever, that's sort of the one that he could. The only one he could think of as the Real Streetcar, or rather just like a Tandy one. Excuse me, because she's the only one who didn't transfer from the Broadway premiere. And I think it fits because this play came at a time when acting was changing and plays were changing. So you have this sort of grand dom of the theater or film Lee, who did it on screen or just getandy sort of doing this very airy, like, ah, the light bulbs and then, you know, contrasted with Marlon Brando, who's sort of like, you know, in a way the father of, like, method acting and a new type of acting realism. So that's sort of so incredible to see those things. And I know that during the time of production, they were kind of worried the two acting styles wouldn't mesh well, and then they didn't. But in a way, that actually helps the story. I think that's fabulous. Having seen the Jessica Lange one yesterday, two days ago, she's. It's hard to think of a better actor to role match. And as you were telling me before this, and I'm dying to hear what you've learned, but apparently this. Like her performance in A Streetcar Named Desire with Alec Baldwin at the St. James.

[Matt Koplik]

No, it was at the Barrymore. The Barrymore that was, like, the big thing was that not only was it her Broadway debut, but they were doing it where the show had premiered.

[Juan Ramirez]

Okay, so it was at the Barrymore, and It was what, like, 92?

[Matt Koplik]

It was 92. Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

And the film was slightly adapted for camera. For a TV camera in 95. And apparently that was sort of what gave us the current version. We know of us, Jessica Lange as, like, this, you know, crazy Southern belle.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. That's what I was telling Juan beforehand was as watching that TV movie, I was like, oh, this is the impetus for the Jessica Lange we know today. Because there's a difference between Tootsie Francis, Jessica Lange and American Horror Story. Ryan Murphy. Jessica Lange, where she's always, like, a little Southern in every role she plays in a Ryan Murphy project, no matter who they are, and always has, like, a little bit of a light air. And then when things get serious, she drops an octave.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right, right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's.

[Juan Ramirez]

Well, it's also interesting, like, even in the same way that, like, the Vivien Leigh thing works, where it's like she also was this, you know, model who was just known for her looks and all that. And then all of a sudden, after playing Streetcar, I guess we. She's playing characters that are, in a way, trying to cling on to their beauty and cling on to their.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Their status.

[Matt Koplik]

Vivien Leigh's casting, so meta and brilliant because she was a British actress who became internationally famous for playing, at that point, the most famous Southern belle in culture, which is Scarlett o' Hara and Gone with the Wind, and won the Oscar for that. And that's when adjusted for inflation, that is still the biggest movie of all.

[Juan Ramirez]

Time, which is so crazy.

[Matt Koplik]

It is. Listen.

[Juan Ramirez]

I mean, the movie's, I think, objectively spectacular, but it's just so kind of scary that that's the most. The highest grossing movie.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's sort of the constant confusion. I think a lot of us have Is that objectively, that movie is incredibly well made. It's beautiful, it's wonderfully acted, beautiful to look at and like a good story. The things about it that don't hold up are. Some are parts of the reason why it was such a major phenomenon at the time. But with that, that was 39. And she did a couple more Hollywood movies after that, but she never really liked playing the game. She didn't like what she was being offered. All the roles that she wanted to play were going to other actresses. They kept being like, oh, no, you're going to play the beauty all the time. And she's like, fuck that shit. Like, she wanted to do. She wanted to do Rebecca. She wanted to play Joan Fontaine's role in Rebecca right afterwards. And you can watch her screen test, and she's amazing. And Hitchcock, who was one of the greatest directors of all time and actually had a pretty good imagination, he couldn't get Scarlet out of his head with her. He was like, I'm sorry. Like, you're more of a Rebecca. You're not the new Mrs. De Winter. And she was like, I'm a fucking actress. Let me do it. So she kind of went back to London to do stage work, and she was Blanche in the West End premiere of Streetcar, directed by her husband, Laurence Olivier. And that ultimately is what got her the role, because when they were making the movie, Ilya Kazan, who had done it on, who had directed on stage, got to direct the movie, and the studio allowed him to keep a lot of the Broadway company, but they're like, we need one movie star. And so they kept sort of experimenting with who that would be. And then ultimately with Blanche, they first offered it to Olivia de Havilland, who said, no.

[Juan Ramirez]

Wow.

[Matt Koplik]

And then. Yeah, who would have been good. But then they saw Vivian do it in Lang.

[Juan Ramirez]

A little too wounded, I think. Olivia de Havilland.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I think she would. I think she would have had the same problem that I have with the first half of Lang's performance in the TV movie, which is that she's sort of playing a bit too much of the end at the beginning. Okay. But that's. We'll talk about that as well, because that's. That is in the text how Lang is playing it. It's just. There's a line you can cross at that. At the beginning of Blanche. But I guess with Lee, they were just like, no, she. She nails it. She gets it. She is a movie star. And it has that meta commentary of, like, in a lot of ways, Blanche is sort of what would happen to Scarlet if Scarlet couldn't pick herself up by the bootstraps at the end when Rhett walks out and she doesn't have Terra anymore, it's like, well, what does she do? She turns into Blanche. So it does work out in a lot of ways. And I agree with you. I think that her acting style, being more technical and refined and a little more presentational, works not only for that character, but as a contrast to everyone else who is starting in that method. Ideology. I think my only two big issues with the original movie are a, the ending, which they had no choice. They had to do if they wanted that thing to get released. And it's a little fast. I think they could have added like five minutes of air in that movie of just every now and then there's dialogue where I'm like, no, no, let's. Let's bathe in this a little bit longer. But I'm not going to be mad at any movie that clocks in at two hours.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right. Do you want to explain to the. To the uncultured what the ending was and how it was changed?

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, my God, of course. Do I. Is that the time? Let me see. Before I talk about the ending. Yeah, let's do it now. Before I talk about the ending, let us take a quick break.

[Juan Ramirez]

Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

You're an Arrow caller. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the. The feet of.

[Matt Koplik]

And we're back. Yeah. So the ending of Streetcar Named Desire. So Blanche's sister Stella, who she comes to stay with, we find out in the second scene. Yeah, I think the second or third scene that Stella is pregnant. And by the. In the second to last scene of the play, she gives birth a little prematurely. But I think it's meant to sort of inform us that she's probably about like three to four months along when the play begins. And she's at about 8 when it ends. Because Blanche arrives before the school year is over, and I want to say May, and then her birthday's in September, so it's. I guess that's the period. And so Blanche gives birth. Stella gives birth. And at the same time, Blanche has sort of come to a crashing point with Stanley of their fights. And Stanley has looked up about Blanche, of what happened to her in Laurel, Mississippi, and why she's actually there, because he doesn't buy her original reasonings. He finds out, we'll talk about all that later, as we talk about Blanche, but then informs Mitch, the man that has been courting Blanche, and just sort of every. And then also gets Blanche this one way ticket out of New Orleans. He's like, you're leaving now. I can't stand you anymore. So she's kind of already deteriorating. And when Stella goes into labor and Stanley leaves Blanche on her own, starts to get drunk, and her mental health just really starts to crumble. And he comes back, they have it out, and he eventually rapes her, which is the ultimate crashing point of her mental health. That's where she really just fully untethers. And the final scene of the play is, I guess we flash forward like two weeks, something like that. And Blanche is a shell of herself. And Stella has made arrangements for Blanche to get taken to a psych ward. And we find out that Blanche informs Stella of what happened with Stanley. And Stella has chosen not to believe it. And she has a lot of conflict about sending Blanche away. But ultimately, when they send Blanche away, like, she's crying. But part of it is also like she feels free because Blanche has. Whether Stella's realized at this entire time or not, Blanche has actually been a burden the entire play for her and chooses to stay with Stanley. In the movie version, Stella grabs the baby at the end as they carte Blanche off to the psych ward. And Stanley starts yelling for her, Stella. Stella. And she says, no, no, not going back in there. Never again. Never again. And then she walks away and the music swells the end. And it's that way in the movie because we were dealing with the hays code. And in order for anything bad to happen on screen, it eventually had to get punished. So they first were told they had to cut the rape and just, you know, they can have, like, they can have a fight, but he can't assault her. And Kazana and Williams were like, did you see the play? Like, we can't cut that. I'm like, fine, keep that. But cut any mentions of homosexuality because that has to deal with Blanche's past with her husband. Ex husband. He's dead. Talk about them too. So they said, you know, cut the. Cut the gay. And Stella's got to leave Stanley. He's got to be punished for what he did. And also everyone's got to be mad at Stanley for what he did. Because in the play, the play ends with them playing poker like they always do. And Mitch is there and you. And in the stage directions, it's very heavily implied that Mitch has been informed of what happened. And he's also kind of grappling whether he believes it or not. And if he believes it, if he's willing to sort of just deal with it. He's very quiet. He's very antsy. And then in the movie, they have Karl Malden as Mitch, like, eventually attack Stanley being like, you did this to her. You're bleh. Like, just make sure that Marlon Brando gets it left and right. And it's just so anti. The point of the play.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, I don't. Or at least the point of the play is I was taught in 11th grade English. Maybe my teacher was wrong, but he was saying to us. And it was very big of him to say this to a bunch of English 11th graders in 2007. Granted, we are. We were a Manhattan bunch. But he was like, this play is an indictment on heteronormativity and. And what we consider, you know, the. The institution of marriage and. And relationships and, like, the toxicity at the root of that. And then went sort of on about to talk about how, like, Tennis Williams had a lot of fun at the expense of heterosexuals and. And managed to get very rich off of heterosexuals watching his stuff.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right. I think Cat on a Hausen Roof is maybe his most sort of if you're straight, you're stupid kind of.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Like, if you're adhering to heteronormative, you know, marriage rituals, et cetera, you're.

[Matt Koplik]

Or like, if you're enjoying it.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, like pretending to enjoy it.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Maggie.

[Juan Ramirez]

Maggie mendacious about it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Maggie the cat is using it for her own gain. She's not actually enjoying it, but that's sort of what he and his collaborators were so good at was that they would cast these actors who were first of all great actors, but hot as fuck.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right, right.

[Matt Koplik]

And light them perfectly and give them all this chemistry. So audiences were just engulfed with. With the heat coming off of that stage, not totally understanding that they were getting put in their place a little bit.

[Juan Ramirez]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I mean, Sweet Bird of Youth, which is. Which is a weird one, actually, when I come to think about it. Like, Sweet Bird of Youth has a lot of connections to Streetcar in terms of a main female character who's aging and trying to deny it, but also actually gets hers at the end, which is nice. But then also, I don't know if that plays necessarily an indictment of heterosexuality so much as it's just like, isn't everything awful?

[Juan Ramirez]

I think at that point he sort of. I'm not exactly sure where that comes in the chronology of all of his works. But I do think by that point, he's sort of having fun. And he's figured out that, like, all right, you know, like, fading hot woman, hot young, you know, stud. Like, let's put them together in a hotel bedroom and give them all this booze and see what happens.

[Matt Koplik]

Let's make sure everyone love it. Let's make sure we have an ingenue with a cool name. Heavenly.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right? Someone should say something about, like, the veranda. And then, you know, I'm gagging like, I love it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Oh, my police. Yeah. So, okay, so the original movie. Would you say that that cast is. Then everyone in it is your favorite performance of those roles?

[Juan Ramirez]

Ooh, I think so. I think so. I really loved Isaka in it, and I think hers is the most. I mean, to bring it back to that performance being what we now know of hers. It's the one that was truly just sort of like gagging at every other turn. Every other word she says. I was sort of. I'm never really mad when you lean into Tennessee Williams. The trash of it all. Yeah. I would say the original is definitive.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay.

[Juan Ramirez]

The original film.

[Matt Koplik]

The original film. But you do really enjoy Jessica Lange's Blanche?

[Juan Ramirez]

I think so, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I'm taking it you did not like Ann Margaret's Blanche.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, my God, no. And people, you know, so I sort of asked, you know, my gays, which one should I see? And people really pointed to that one. I again, that one's maybe the trashiest I've seen and I don't think. And it's also cut in a way that I kind of respect. It's under two hours.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, they trimmed a lot of it.

[Juan Ramirez]

It's trashy, it's fun that, you know, you can only see in this really ratty, sort of like Betamax copy that's on YouTube. I had fun. Tree Williams is one of my all time celebrity crushes and he plays Stan Lee. Yeah. She know. And there are things, I mean, especially seeing it so close to all these other interpretations, I think that are just line readings that you completely missed, you know, or just the way that it's shot. I remember the sort of first time that Blanche and Stella are, you know, having words about how. How he treats her and how, you know, how Stella could put up with this all. And there was just like times when the cat, they're fully just facing away from the camera.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

And I'm like, okay, well, what am I?

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, I feel the same way about the Jessica Lange One of the direction of that. Both. Both are TV movies. And you can absolutely tell by the budget and the way it's filmed.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

There's no artistry in that.

[Juan Ramirez]

What I appreciate, I think definitely this is a budget constraint, but about the Lang one is that it's the first I've seen that doesn't portray their world as like this, you know, ratty Southern sort of New Orleans, like, blah, blah, blah. It's kind of just like a working class home.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

There's like a fully. It kept taking me out every time they showed it, but there's a pennant for, you know, New Orleans, Mardi Gras or whatever. And I'm like, this looks like a college Dorm in the 90s more than anything else.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

But I think. I mean, I don't think that's how you should stage the play necessarily, but I think it's interesting to. To make it more of a. This could happen to you.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I think atmosphere is a major component of a successful Streetcar. And how you go about that is up to you. I find that from what I've viewed and then what I've read, the interpretations that go for more grounded realism tend, and at least in the environment tend to be less successful. It's more about what's. I'm looking for. Impressionism. Yeah. And then you have the actual acting be the groundedness or at least the rawness. It's very sort of like the concept of musicals. Right. Of the environment is not real, but the emotions of the characters are. So you don't want a Les Mis Tom Hooper where everyone's whisper singing because that's more realistic. It's like. No, no, no. Bombastic, please.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah. And I think as anime, he's a very grounded director, sort of in the same Marlon Brando camp. But there is a lot of, you know, the drapes in the film and there's a lot of flowy. A lot of fades in and out. And, you know, like, I guess it's mandated in the script. I should have checked. But that you have to hear the gunshots every time.

[Matt Koplik]

It is in the script, Blanche is.

[Juan Ramirez]

Thinking about how her husband, you know, her old husband or whatever, like this and that person got killed or sort of like a. And then he died. And you hear pow. You know, it's kind of ridiculous.

[Matt Koplik]

It is in there, like, specifically when it has to happen in between lines. And I'm sort of wondering what would happen if we didn't do that.

[Juan Ramirez]

I know.

[Matt Koplik]

Or play the Pokemon.

[Juan Ramirez]

Are we gonna stop?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, exactly.

[Juan Ramirez]

I think it's so interesting because, like, I mean, to go back to when I first discovered this play, I was not. I sort of took my time with my learning the greats of theater and just sort of like as things came up, I'd watch them. But I remember it was very much this came into my consciousness. And just after that, my mom and I, I think we saw Streetcar first. Then the year after we came back to New York, I grew up near Miami and we saw the Steppenwolf, Virginia Woolf. I had no idea what that was. I had no other title whatever. My mom and I went to go see it and we were just blown the fuck away. So that sort of cemented like, ah, okay, the greats of American theater. I think what's funny is that with, you know, like an o' Neill and Alby who was gay, but you don't really see that in his stories that much. I don't think there's this sort of tendency to, ah, these are the canonical great American playwrights. Thus they are serious and straight. And I'm like, those are not two things that Tennessee Williams was like. There are serious themes that emerge out of that. But like I said, I don't think you can ever go wrong leaning into the trashiness of a Tennessee Williams play.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

So anytime that you try to go straight or not, well, straight and, you know, make it less melodramatic, you're gonna run into the faults of the play. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I think what's so fascinating is that when the play was first produced on Broadway and then the movie came out, they were sort of considered these entities or audiences. Like, I've never seen a story and acting where it's basically real life. It's practically a documentary. And of course, that is the parent of what we know of realistic acting today. So, like, as time continues, we go like, ah, it's. It's actually kind of showy. It's brilliant. It works for the story, but it's showy. Which makes you wonder, you know, in 30, 40 years what we're going to say about performances from the 90s and 2000s. But I mean, I think you can find a. I don't think I know you can find a direct link between Streetcar and Woody Allen's Blue Jasmine. It's just there.

[Juan Ramirez]

Of course.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Like, it is his version of Streetcar, but so you watch Kate Blanchett's Jasmine and she's done Blanche on stage. I never got to see it, but she did it in Australia.

[Juan Ramirez]

Australia, directed by Leave Ullman, which I sal at the Thought, absolutely.

[Matt Koplik]

They brought it over at bam. And everyone says that she was incredible, which I truly believe.

[Juan Ramirez]

But you can the day after, so I missed that one.

[Matt Koplik]

You were born the day. Yeah. Famously so young. You are. But you watch her in Blue Jasmine, you absolutely can see what her Still. What her Blanche would have been like. Because I also firm belief that her performance in Blue Jasmine is like, maybe the greatest performance in film of the 21st century. It's just. It's mind blowing how good she is. And if Vivien Leigh is a brilliant performance that holds up today as like, 1951, presentational but still realistic acting, like Cate Blanchett is the 21st century version of that performance that a modern audience could watch and get what Vivien Leigh's doing through the lens of Cate Blanchett.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah. Cause she'll go big. She'll do. I mean, even in a much smaller sort of like, Woody Allen, you know, story. Like, she's going big. You know, I always think of, what is it? Oh, my God. She says to a child that she's entrusted with carrying. She says something like, you know, a person can only take so much trauma before they take to the streets and start screaming. It's like, so good.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

You believe her as a person that you would run into the street, but you still. You know, it's still big.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, so it's.

[Juan Ramirez]

And you have to respect. Sorry. Like the language of Tennessee Williams, which is something that Arthur Miller again, notes in the foreword. Like, no matter how you play it, you still have to contend with the fact that this language is very poetic. Very sort of like, you know, the sweltering heat in my veranda as I write this with my scotch. Not Scotch. Bourbon.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, always bourbon.

[Juan Ramirez]

So, you know, you have to. I think that the poeticism of the language, like, makes you lean into how grand these characters are.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I think there's a Tennessee Williams plays feel like molasses, but they sound like meringue.

[Juan Ramirez]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

And I. And so it's. You have to find a way to balance the two. Right. And I think that Streetcar is the perfect example of. Is the perfect opportunity to do that. As you said, some of his later plays, like, pretty much once he got his two Pulitzers and his Tony for Rose tattoo, he was like, yeah, I'm going to fuck around and find out. So sweet Bird of Youth. Night of the Iguana. I know. Oh, I know.

[Juan Ramirez]

I still have hope that I'll see a good production of that one day.

[Matt Koplik]

But I don't think so. I think we just have the movie and call it a day.

[Juan Ramirez]

I saw the James Earl Jones 1James Earl Jones ones at Art in Cambridge a few years ago that I think was heavily eyeing a Broadway transfer and just didn't happen. That was good. I saw this last one off Broadway which is not good. Yeah, yeah, maybe.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. There's the scene you're talking about with Blanchett. Yeah. She's babysitting her two nephews and she's telling, she's giving them life advice and the first thing she says is tip big to her 10 year old nephews like at a pizza parlor. And one of the recurring things is that she'll just sort of like go into a script she has for herself all the time that she tells people about like the first time she met her husband and oh, Blue Moon was playing, you know the song Blue Moon. And that's her line is all the time of like blue Moon, you know the song Blue Moon. And she says it to her two nephews and Alan to his credit, like cuts to their faces. So you understand like that's supposed to be funny. But also one of my favorite clips in that movie is when she arrives and she's talking to Sally Hawkins again. It's Everything is Streetcar Coded. And she's talking about how she wants to go back to school, she wants to do something and like my God, when I was in New York I lost everything and I had to be. I had to sell shoes and I just like friends. I had a dinner parties where I had to fit their shoe sizes. And then she takes a beat and she goes, Erica Bishop came into the store, she saw me, was so embarrassed for me, walked out thinking I didn't see her. Takes a beat and she just shouts at the floor, I saw you Erica. And it's such a big thing she does but it's so specific. And I, I've talked about this on the Once Upon a Mattress review episode and I think I said this again. I said it again definitely when I talked about big gay jamboree of it doesn't. It's not just comedy but like anything where you're going broad, you have to be big and you have to be specific. So someone like Blanche, she is larger than life in general. So you have to be very specific about who she is so we can buy it and understand when it's performative and when she's real. There's, I think most Blanche's are very good at the second, the second scene she has with Stanley when they go over the papers about Belle Reve.

[Juan Ramirez]

When she sort of levels with him and says, you know, I think I understand you better than my sister does.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, exactly. And tells Stella to go get her a lemon co, puts on her glasses, gives them all the paperwork. She's like, you think I've swindled my sister? I haven't. Like, here you go. And. And explains to him what happened with Belle Re. Because in Stanley's mind, and something that's a. It's not even a theme for the play, like, just really for the first 25 minutes. The Napoleonic Code, you take a shot every time you hear it said, which is just French civil law. Because Louisiana, I think it's still.

[Juan Ramirez]

When it was under French rule.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, French rule.

[Juan Ramirez]

They.

[Matt Koplik]

They implemented French civil law. And basically, to Stanley's understanding, the Napoleonic Code is what belongs to the wife belongs to the husband, and belongs to the husband belongs to the wife, which is essentially true, not the other way around.

[Juan Ramirez]

I thought it was the much more sort of egalitarian thing, but it's truly just the wife for the husband. I mean, I guess at that point it's like, if it was your husband's, then.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's also the thing about. About the Napoleonic Code is that it kept having amendments every, like, 20 years as, as people's understanding of civil rights evolved, they added more to it. So I don't know what it was like in Louisiana at the time of Streetcar. And there's also. I've also read articles that's like, that's actually not the case. They weren't under Napoleon, Napoleonic Code. And then other articles are like, no, actually, Louisiana does follow French civil law. So I'm like, who's correct?

[Juan Ramirez]

I think that works in the play, though. I think it's very much this thing that this, like, brute would just sort of say, you ever heard of the Napoleonic Code? You know?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Do you know what you're talking about?

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And, and, and it's, it's, it's this very basic interpretation of it. And then there's somebody else that he's quoting that's incorrect. The every man a king mantra, which is it was a Louisiana politician. Maybe it was the governor or something like that. I can't remember. It's Huey something, I think. And, and the whole point of every man a king was about distributed wealth. It wasn't about, like, the man is the king of the household. But Stanley Kowalski heard it and he was like, every man's a king, just like he said, and I'm the king of this house. It's like, no, he's talking about, like, not trickle down economics, but rather redistributed tax brackets. So it's again, as you said, a good insight into who Stanley is, that he hears that and he just takes it at face value for himself. Because he's not a smart dude. He's an intuitive dude, but he's not book smart. He's very, as Blanche calls him, common. But, yeah, that scene where he informs Stella, I totally think your sister's swindling you. She sold your giant estate and she's keeping all the money and not giving you any, and I'm entitled to some of that. And then Blanche is like, no, I didn't sell it. It was like, it genuinely was lost. We come from a long line of socialites who were bad with money who kept having to sell off the property to the government. And by the time that it came into my care, all we had was the house on, like, five feet of land.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

She goes. And she's like, and I'm bad at it. I have a teacher salary. I couldn't pay off the mortgages, and so the government took it. She's like, here's all the paperwork. And one of the times that she actually has a zinger at him because most of her zingers are, like, half singers. They're clever. But we're also laughing at her ridiculousness. But she gives him the papers, and he says, yeah, I'll have my accountant friend look it over. And she goes, give it to him with a bottle of aspirin. I'm like, good for you.

[Juan Ramirez]

Well, you know, I think Lang sells the sort of bitchiness and turns a lot of these lines into singers. Like, another line that I won't soon forget was her when she's talking to Stella about, you know, how she's sort of first processing her first interaction with Stanley and his friends, and they're all sort of these, like, brutes playing poker. And the line is like. She says, maybe we are a long way from being made in God's image. But Stella, there has been some progress since then. Every other Blanche I've seen plays that's, like, more earnestly and compassionately and, like, actually coming from a place of God and, like, no, we are being. You know. But, like, the way she delivers it is, you know, the predecessor to her American Horror Story.

[Matt Koplik]

1000% work. There's not gonna be a pool, you stupid slut. Or whatever that line is. Yeah, it's she. I will say so. Watching her in the TV movie First of all, it was three years after she did it on Broadway, so it was a little more in her bones at that point. And the reviews she got for Broadway that were negative or more like this is clearly, if not her first foray into stage work, definitely it was her Broadway debut. But if she has been on stage, it's been a while. You can't hear her. She's playing to a camera that isn't there, and Alec Baldwin is mopping the floor with her. So that was what everybody was saying. So I think by a. Having more time in the run to understand the character and then also being in a medium that she understands film, I think performance probably was more successful in that respect than it was on Broadway. I agree with you. I like a lot of the dryness she brings to some of those line deliveries. She also has a great line where. When she's talking about Shep Het Field. Is that his name? The former beau? Oh, I ran into him in Miami. Cadillac a block long. She goes, oh, and he could set us up in a shop. Stella, with all the money his wife throws away. And Stella goes, oh, he's married. And she goes, honey, would I be here if he wasn't married? And she has a little laugh about that. And I enjoy that. I enjoy it. Estella. A Blanche who can give as well as she has to receive it. You need. She can't be broken the entire time. There has to be some kind of up and down with her.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think.

[Juan Ramirez]

Well, because she's been fighting. She's losing the battle. But she has been fighting for however long.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And I think. But I don't. I say that regarding Lang, because I don't find that Lang's Blanche is necessarily a fighter. She has the bitchiness in her delivery, but in the first 45 minutes, I find her a little too wounded. Butterfly. And I think Ann Margaret might be a little too much of a survivor at the beginning.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, she comes in with a lot of grit.

[Matt Koplik]

She comes in a lot of grit. Ann Margret's Blanche. I keep. My instinct is always Stella. Ann Margaret's Blanche is very much.

[Juan Ramirez]

She's pissed. She's pissed.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, it's almost like she's a matriarch on the verge of losing it rather than like a fading ingenue, which is an interesting take to have. And at that point, you know, she was probably one of the oldest Blanches on record, because Tandy and Lee Both were 37, 38 when they did it. And this is prior to Lang. Most. Most blanches were between 35 and 40. I think Ann Margaret was like 42 at that point. Maybe I'm fetching the numbers.

[Juan Ramirez]

Maybe a little older. I was. I was surprised to even know she did this in the 80s. I would have thought she had kind of aged out.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Because I think this is 84.

[Juan Ramirez]

I mean, how old was. She was. She did the who's Tommy?

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, she was. Actually wasn't that old into who's Tommy. They just, they aged her up a lot. But also, quick shout out to Ann Margaret and the who's Tommy. If ever you question that woman is willing to go for it. She's. She just goes for it in that movie.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Oscar nominated too. And have you seen her in Carl Cardinal Knowledge?

[Juan Ramirez]

No, that's Bergman movie.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. No, it's.

[Juan Ramirez]

No, but Leave a Thing is what I'm thinking of.

[Matt Koplik]

It's Candice Bergen, Jack Nicholson, and it's directed by Nichols. Maybe Lee Vollman is in it. But so Anne Margaret, she was 43 when it came out. 42, I guess, when they filmed it. Yeah. Anne Margaret's older than older. Slash younger than we realize. But yeah, I think because she was so much older than everyone else, like objectively. So she went for a more matriarch kind of vibe of sort of presenting strength for as long as possible before the crumbling happens. And you'll see moments in her first half of that performance where you see things getting to her, but it's always 10 seconds of a. And then moving right along.

[Juan Ramirez]

I think some of that also is. Cause I think that production's a bit more abridged. And if I remember correctly, I don't think she spends much time in the house before she talks to. To Stella. She sort of meets them at a bowling alley and like, there's no time to her to, you know, sort of take in her surroundings and think, oh my God, my sister's living like this. She sort of just pulls right up to the bowling alley and says, how the fuck are you living like this?

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Well, that's. And it's the same thing in the original movie. They. They basically the whole point of that TV movie happening was Williams wanted another filmed version that had the original ending, that had the stage ending and included the homosexuality of the. Of the husband. But ultimately was like, yeah, we can keep everything else from the movie, but like, I want to implement these two things. And then specifically wanted Margaret for Blanche. And so that was sort of what that was about because he was gay, by the way. He was very gay.

[Juan Ramirez]

He wanted Ann. Margaret in the movie because he was gay.

[Matt Koplik]

He was very, very gay. And Beverly d' Angelo as Stella, who's, I thought, a very good Stella. And in fact, when it's weird when you prefer the Stella to the Blanche, because that's actually how I felt in the Lang one. As much as I half enjoyed her, I really liked Diane Lane.

[Juan Ramirez]

Diane Lane, who is the. If you want to look that up on YouTube, it's. It's under Streetcar Diane Lane, I'm assuming, because Streetcar Jessica Lane would be too obvious for, you know. Absolutely. Moderators. She worked for me sometimes. She was a bit too modern at others.

[Matt Koplik]

That's fair. I just. She and Kim Hunter are the only Stellas I've seen where when they come out in that famous scene with Stanley yelling for her and they come out at the top of the stairs where, like, their look.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, yeah, she ate that. Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. The looks that they give, it's like, it's both absolute lesson also of, like, you know, what you did, and, like, I'm gonna come down real slowly, but I, like, keep groveling. Boy, it's. It's hot. It's very hot. Lane is also. And it's not her fault. Like, she's just so beautiful and so.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And, like, so vibrant. And I. I. Because the whole point of Stella and Blanche is that they come from this old world of Southern gentility and seeming money, if not actual money. And Stella kind of runs away from home at 15, 16, and is in most manner, slumming it with Stanley. That's something. That's a major talking point with all of them. So you have to get a sense that she came from Blanche's world while also not feeling like she's actually of that world anymore.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah. Well, also, I think she's. I think the big thing, the break baking point between the two sisters is that Stella fell in love with this, you know, like, sexy, sweaty Marlon Brando, and she's like, fuck it, you know, my family empire is probably dying anyway. Like, I'm just gonna live my life with this hot man. Whatever arguments we might have, we're just gonna fuck it out, basically. And, like, life will go on. I'm chill. Whereas Blanche, you know, is a lady. And she would never allow that to happen publicly because come to find out, of course, like, she has had a lot of gentlemen callers, to use William's parlance, and she sort of moved into this disreputable hotel called the Flamingo that, you know, news of that reaches Marlon Stanley, who's been doing some, you know, sleuthing around. And it's interesting because, you know, I think. I think Blanche has the higher body count, if you will, but she's still sort of clinging to this idea of being a lady. And, you know, like, yeah, she's not having sex. She would never allow a man to treat her in any way.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, and that sort of.

[Juan Ramirez]

Of.

[Matt Koplik]

It's the hypocrisy of Blanche. And also William's kind of calling out the hypocrisy of all of it, Right. Like, she and Stella are probably having equal amounts of sex. The difference that Stella is married to a. To an animal of a man. Blanche is having many gentlemen callers. Part of it is just, you know, she was staying at a hotel that was known for bed hopping. But also she was a very lonely person who could never get someone to marry her and so would always put on the air of I'm a virginal debutante. Could only get away with it for like three or four dates before the guy found out about her past and would dump her. Because she. Laurel is not Grover's Corners, but it's not a big city. Like, eventually word gets around. And so the irony is that she keeps racking up all of these partners because she does want sex, but she also wants to be settled down. And she keeps putting out and keeps putting out and keeps putting out, getting what she wants, but not all of what she wants.

[Juan Ramirez]

That was the line that I thought Ann Margaret absolutely butchered. And I think the best delivery I've seen is of the. What is it? The 2012 production, which I'll talk to about in a second. I think my favorite delivery of it is Nicole Ory Parker. But, you know, she's talking Stella, sorry. Blanche is asking Stella how she could put up with his behavior or whatever. And Stella replies that, you know, like, basically, we're fucking, he's hot, we're into each other. And. And Blanche says, no, that's just desire. You're just talking about desire like the Streetcar I wrote here, or you're talking about desire. And Blanche Estelle replies, have you ever written that Streetcar? And Stella says, well, Blanche says, well, I wrote it here, didn't I? Yeah, and that's a perfect thing. I think Ann Margaret completely fucking missed it. And I think Nicole Ari Parker, who was in the 2012 production, sort of delivered it so deliciously, but that was kind of the only thing in that production that worked.

[Matt Koplik]

I have a lot of questions about that production because there's. That production is Very infamous in circles of people who know Streetcar. And I want to talk about that in just a second. But first, let's take another break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean?

[Juan Ramirez]

You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire.

[Matt Koplik]

And we're back. So that production, A Streetcar that we were referring to with Nicole Ari Parker and Blair Underwood and Daphne Ruben Vega.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

Is kind of infamous. It was at the Broadhurst Theater, where also there was another revival of Williams, Cat in a Hot Tin Roof, and that was with a very similar vibe because both of those were all black or all bipoc cast Williams productions. That Cat in a Hot Tin Roof was Felicia Rashad, Anika Noni Rose, Terrence Howard, and James Earl Jones, directed by Debbie Allen. And that was a really big financial hit, as far as I'm aware. But what everyone always said with that Cat in the Hot Tin Roof, that was sort of bothersome was that it felt like a sitcom for. For the majority of the play. And as we were saying, have fun with Williams. There's a lot of humor in there. When Stanley is going through all of Blanche's clothes to say how rich she clearly is, while Blanche is in the tub and throwing all her stuff around, not recognizing that all of her jewelry is costume jewelry, that all of her furs are the cheapest kind of furs that either she bought or someone got for her in her youth. And when Blanche comes out and sees the trunk, she was like, looks like my trunk exploded. And he's like, oh, yeah, we were helping you unpack. She goes, well, you did a quick job of it. Like, that's funny, but a lot of people don't want to play that. But so for that cat in aha 10 roof, everyone was like, this is a little too much. Like, audiences are laughing far too much. And then for that Streetcar, who directed it? Did you were able to find out?

[Juan Ramirez]

Emily Mann, who I think is a leading Williams scholar because she also directed the last year's revival off roadway revival of Iguana.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, well, directed and started. So here we go then. Because all people were talking about with that revival was how much inappropriate laughter was happening and that it was awkward. Including leading up to. And including Stanley raping Blanche. People laughed at that.

[Juan Ramirez]

So, I mean, yeah, I think. I think the laughter is inappropriate on the production side. I don't want to put it on the people I Don't remember. Like, I was not thinking critically. That was sort of back in the time when I was, you know, my parents and I would come to New York and we would see a few shows, and I was just happy to be there type of thing. But, yeah, I mean, it's interesting to play into the comedy of it all. Right. I don't think it should be more than a thought exercise, though, because, like, the scene of, you know, Stanley and Blanche's final confrontation, sort of Stella's away, I think, giving birth or having just given birth. Blanche has lost, you know, hopes for Mitch. Everything's sort of crashing. You can feel at this. Where you should be able to feel at this point. Point that everything's coming to a head. Blanche has no more, you know, cards to play, whatever. And then it just becomes a sort of cat and. Yeah, I guess cat and mouse. I don't want to put too much, like, the heat on the Blanche character, but you can tell something's gonna happen. Stanley's sort of eyeing her with this animal look, and right before he assaults her, he says, we've had this date for a long time. There is a sense of destiny that Blanchard yourself sells in the beginning. Something to the effect of, like, this man is going to destroy me or this man is going to, like, ruin my illusions.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

And I remember in this revival, I don't know if people weren't familiar with the play before, but my mom and I had just seen it, I think, the movie. So we knew what the hell was happening or about to happen. And just the scene was played for such laughs. And it was sort of like this woman getting her comeuppance, like, oh, she's. He's finally gonna, like, you know, put her in her place in some way. That the final sort of jump into a rape was when everyone was like. Which, like, works, I guess, but it should not be like a gotcha rape, you know?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

And it felt very nasty. And mom and I sort of looking around us being like, oh, God, do these people know what's gonna happen? And not in a. In a thrilling, you know, theater. So surprising. No, it was just felt very clearly misdirected.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I understand that Streetcar has become such a cultural institution, and if you are a theater person, like, everyone knows it. Everyone knows the premise of it. Everyone knows Brando, and it's hard to make it feel shocking anymore. We all. Most of us know what's gonna happen, so. But that also doesn't mean you have to look for a way to shock the Audience. Part of the fun is how you get there.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And we'll. We'll be along for the ride no matter what. If it's. If it's a good journey. Yeah. I don't know. What. Were there other things that production, like, jump out to you as Odd.

[Juan Ramirez]

It was very sick coming, as a good way of putting it. And. Yeah, I think just everyone was. Was playing to the. Was playing to win the audience. I feel like every line that. That Blanche said was very, you know. Do you know that? Do you know the, you know, desire. I wrote it here, didn't I? Sort of, like, want. Like, I don't really like waka waka. Yeah. It just felt very light. It felt very low stakes. It felt like, you know, the. The month my sister stayed with me and we had some. We had some times. Blair Underwood was good. He played Stanley. I think he was a little too, like, hot boy for the thing. Like, it was a lot of. And I mean, look like that role, obviously, Brando indelibly made it, like, arguably created our modern definition of hot. Like.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Just sort of brooding in the corner, slightly sweaty, slightly pissed. But he was always just more like, you know, like, hand on his chin, like, looking over at the women, like, licking his lips type of thing. It wasn't. It was. It was sexy in a way. It wasn't really a threat.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay.

[Juan Ramirez]

And I remember I had a decent night of the theater, I guess, but I remember the. The assault was very out of place.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. How did audience react to the final scene then, of. Of Blanche getting carted away?

[Juan Ramirez]

God, I think my mom and I were in such shock that everyone around us was cackling. I could not tell you. I genuinely couldn't tell you.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. Because I'm like, I'm genuinely trying to think of how you can play that final scene for laughter. It's just so.

[Juan Ramirez]

I don't think. I don't think they would have played that for laughter. If anything, I think they would have played that scene in a very, you know. Well, a rape just happened, so now we're all sad.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Which, like. Yeah. But. Yeah, you know, like, all of a.

[Matt Koplik]

Sudden a woman is officially and forever broken. It's just. And her last tether to this earth is choosing the hot dick.

[Juan Ramirez]

In a way, I think Nicole Parker's Blanche being such a, you know, like, playing so hard to the audience and being, you know, sort of winning you over with these. With these retorts. I think it did sort of nastily come across as, like. And now we put this mouthy bitch in her place in a way that, you know, it's like, yeah, did we understand this play?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I think there's so much to play with, with Blanche of when she can be strong and when she can be sassy, but ultimately knowing that she has to break and that there's so much that has to be broken about her at the start and, yeah, just figuring out, like, when is her being ridiculous. Okay, for us to kind of chuckle at when is it time for us to go and when is it time for us to sort of get annoyed? Because the truth is, like, everyone is pretty much in the wrong at some point in Streetcar, like, with the Blanche Stanley feud. They both have a lot of wrong. Like, she never comes in and acts like a guest in this home. She. She fully takes over and has no self awareness. She is rude to Stanley. The whole Polish thing. Like, it's just. She calls him a Pollock, to which he eventually starts yelling at her. I am not. People from Poland are called Poles, but I was born in America, so I'm American. Like, go fuck yourself. But it's, it's also sort of meant to show you that Blanche is not innocent. And it's not just her sexuality. Like, she can be.

[Juan Ramirez]

Bigoted on a plantation. Like, you know, she's not.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, she's bigoted.

[Juan Ramirez]

Family hands are not clean.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And, and, and there's always this. There's always this mentality for a lot of people of, like, well, we may be this, but like, we're better than that. And, and especially in old world America, like, the mental gymnastics that a lot of families did to prove their worth, especially if they didn't have any more money, if they had nothing tangential to hold onto, they would go off about their bloodlines and how pure it was. And, well, we come from French descendants and everyone knows that French are far more sophisticated than the Polish. And so it's that it's always just talking down to anybody like, we're a better white than you are white. And it's, it's, it's nasty. But Stanley then is also just, you know, there should be a moment for the audience to break away from the hotness supposedly of him. If you have a Brando or a Ben Foster or a Baldwin, like, no, he eventually makes a choice to do an evil thing and gets away with it. Someone in the Discord Channel, which, if you haven't joined yet, make sure to join. Someone wrote in and asked, sort of the connections between this in Carousel, because I mention a lot of, like, Carousel is, in a lot of ways like Streetcar. I mean that more in just that I've always felt Rodgers and Hammerstein are more of musical theater. Tennessee Williams, they deal much more with working class people. They deal with the toxicity and the messiness of human interactions and also, like, of just romance. And with Carousel, the ties to Streetcar, in addition to violence, it's also just people leading with their loins and. And not having that necessarily work out. Carousel is more of an optimistic story. It. It's about redemption. Streetcar is not about redemption. And thus we don't have to like Billy. We don't even have to root for him. But we have to buy the redemption. Stanley, we don't have. There's no redemption to buy. We don't have to like him. There's. All you really do is like. You can't help but watch him, I guess, is the point. And you. This is why I was sort of teasing out with the John C. Reilly casting. Prior to John C. Reilly being cast in Streetcar with Natasha Richardson, it was Brando, it was Treat Williams, it was Alec Baldwin and any other versions. I was Aiden Quinn on Broadway and very handsome men with good bodies, some more pretty boy than others. To make an audience want to fuck Stanley and then not. I'm not sure how many audiences at the end of the play weren't still kind of wanting to fuck him, but.

[Juan Ramirez]

Isn'T that sort of the right. You know, Stella stays.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but. So it's never said in the play like he's objectively a beautiful person. It's that he has a raw, animal power to him and that he and Stella have a very sexual relationship. So with John C. Reilly's casting, in a way it was who's, you know, listen, everyone's attracted to whatever, but he does not look like a Marlon Brando. He does not look like an Alec Baldwin. The question becomes like, okay, how much of Stan Lee's actions can we actually abide by when we're no longer blinded by the. The hotness of the actor? And I think there's something to be said about that. That's more of. I feel like a term paper argument than a production argument. But I don't know, I feel like there's. I would love to have someone like a Josh o' Connor who is like Josh o'. Connor.

[Juan Ramirez]

He's kind of in the mold of a Paul Mescal.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Of a hot. A fuckboy who has a sexuality to him, but is not pretty.

[Juan Ramirez]

You know, I think you could pull it off. That's somewhat his role in Challengers. Right. He's like this, like, nasty boy. But you're like. You're still attracted to him.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. He doesn't do a lot in Challengers. That's, like, objectively evil.

[Juan Ramirez]

No, no.

[Matt Koplik]

So it's. It's.

[Juan Ramirez]

He plays around a lot in a way that's like, please stay away from.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Me and my husband.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, in a lot of ways, I think I kind of want a Streetcar where Josh o' Connor is Stanley.

[Juan Ramirez]

I mean, Zendaya.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe Zendaya is Blanche. And Mike Faced is Stella. Like, that's Mike Feist is Stella. Like, that's what I want. I'm sorry. I think that's.

[Juan Ramirez]

And then.

[Matt Koplik]

And then they do a true west where like, every day they all rotate.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, yeah, sure, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

So one day Zendaya is going to be Stanley.

[Juan Ramirez]

I love the Rogers and Hammerstein comparison. I feel like those are all. Carousel and the Streetcar are both about misunderstanding in a way. It reminded me of this, like, Tennessee Williams quote I love from Suddenly Last Summer that says, like, we're all children in a kindergarten trying to spell God's name with the wrong blocks, which is so sort of, you know. Ha. Yeah, but, like, you know, it's all about misunderstanding. Because I think the best, Stanley, I mean, not to. Not to put too much of, like, a 2024 psychology lens on it, but also, Blanche is someone who should have had psychiatric help long ago. Yeah. Because she had.

[Matt Koplik]

She's.

[Juan Ramirez]

She's fully delusional, which I don't think we've talked about. Or she sort of lapses into, like, grand delusions at some points, and she really thinks that she's, like, in Gone with the Wind. But she also went through something that was, at the time, absolutely unspeakable, which is that her husband was gay and killed himself over it.

[Matt Koplik]

Well. And so. Well, so do you want to talk about the story of Blanche's husband? Because there's a specific. She thinks there's a very specific reason why it happened. Why he. Why he killed himself. Regarding her.

[Juan Ramirez]

Go ahead. Do you think I know what you're talking about?

[Matt Koplik]

Okay.

[Juan Ramirez]

There's subterfuge involved, but.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Buckle up, children. Gather round the fire, and let's talk about the faggotry that is the Mr. Blanche Dubois. So Blanche met a boy when she was 16 and fell head over heels in love with him. They got married pretty quickly after that. It's. The timeline is unclear. We know that they met at 16. If we're being generous, let's say between like 16 and 20 is their courtship, marriage and his death, probably shorter than that. I just couldn't tell you what. And she always had known that there was something soft about him, even though he wasn't effeminate. He wasn't anything that you. That would give you alarm. She was like, there was just always something off about him. She goes, and I didn't realize it at the time, but I was. He came to me for help. I was meant to be like a port in a storm, but I thought that we were like a genuine marriage. And she goes, and it wasn't until one day I walked into a room that I thought was empty but wasn't. It had the boy and an older man who had been his friend for a long time. And we acted like nothing happened. We all went to this casino drunk, laughing. She goes, and then he ran out of the room where we were all dancing and. And there was a gunshot and we all saw that it was him. And then there's a moment and she goes, what I have never told anybody is that I'm the reason why he ran out of the room. We were dancing and I said to him, I didn't forget what I saw. I know what I saw, and you disgust me. And that. She goes, and that's when he ran out. And so she blames herself for her husband killing himself because he needed compassion and she didn't give it. And so ever since then, she has always been looking for compassion. She's also always been looking for companionship. And in a weird Humbert Humbert way.

[Juan Ramirez]

She is kind of the lead of Lolita.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you. Thank you. She's looking to recreate the memory of her husband who died so young.

[Juan Ramirez]

Totally.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is why we have an incident on stage and an incident offstage with her and. And younger men.

[Juan Ramirez]

Sure. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So what we learn. One of the things we learn is the reason why Blanche was ultimately run out of town. It's not just that she was riding more hog than John Travolta. She.

[Juan Ramirez]

Is that a Wild Hogs reference?

[Matt Koplik]

Technically speaking, yes.

[Juan Ramirez]

Okay, off mic.

[Matt Koplik]

We'll talk about it more. But yes, that is a Wild Hogs reference. You're welcome. But. So she was fucking left and right, God bless and alt. And then was also teaching English at a high school and she got fired because it was discovered she was having an affair with one of her 17 year old students. And that was. And. And also according to Stanley, because she was. She was riding more dick than most people at her hotel.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right. And the hotel was Used to comings and goings. But even.

[Matt Koplik]

Even her behavior, they were like, give us your key. Like, we're. We can't abide by this anymore. Like, we are. When we're telling you you've done too much, you know that you've done too much. That hallway has nine hot dogs in it. But. So it's when she is starting to sleep with her student that she gets fired and the town turns on her and she's run out. That's not revealed until much later, but we have an inkling that there's something going on there, because before one of her dates with Mitch, she's had a minor mental episode with Stella. And when Stella and the rest of the gang leave, as. As Blanche waits for her date with Mitch, a young man, I want to say, like, 16, 17, who's collecting no money for the Evening Star newspaper, she holds him in the house for a while and then eventually kisses him. And then says, I wish I could have you stay, but I have to be good and keep my hands off of children, and says, now, run along now. And it's very odd when you don't know what the fuck it's about. And when you eventually learn about the teenage boy from her past, you're like, oh, okay, I guess that makes sense. But also, I do think that there's a connection between both of those boys and her dead husband.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, absolutely.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

And then, you know, just like, her husband needed compassion and she was mean to him, now she's sort of at her wit's end, and Stanley's not giving her that.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. There's. But, like, so. And I say this with Humbert Humber, because if you've read Lolita, this is something that has never been shown, I think, in any of the movie adaptations of it. Famously, in the 60s version of James Mason, they portrayed that Humbert Humbert was a normal man until he met Lolita. And then he was like, oh, I like young girls now.

[Juan Ramirez]

That was a loose adaptation.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. God, I'm already forgetting the name of the actress. And I was.

[Juan Ramirez]

So she was. She then played Baby Doll. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And Night of the Iguana. Yeah, she. But he. He. When he sees dolores in the 60s version, and she's, like, 17 in that version, she's not 12. 13. That's when he's like, oh, I think I like. I like this girl. But in the book. In the actual book, Lolita, Humbert Humbert was supposed to lose his virginity at, like, 13 with his childhood love, but she died, like, immediately. And that Gave him a mental break and a complex about young girls from then on. And so he was always like, mentally Sue Lyon. That's who it was. He was always just mentally locked on that fixation of young girls. And in a lot of ways, Blanche is mentally locked into being 19, 20.

[Juan Ramirez]

Wait, Sue lion was in Iguana?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

She was also a baby doll in.

[Matt Koplik]

Babydoll in the movie Baby Doll. Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Which I don't think was ever a play. I think Williams just wrote the screenplay.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I was mixing up her character from Night of the Iguana. My bad. What's her character's name in Iguana? Why did I think that was Baby Doll?

[Juan Ramirez]

I mean, I'm sure there's like a young.

[Matt Koplik]

She's the one that tells Richard Burton that she loves him. She's the like, huh?

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, well, there's also. So Richard Burton's also sort of like this Defrock priest who like, keeps like going after young girls.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well.

[Juan Ramirez]

And she's on his tour.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Every first different play. Every woman, every woman on that bus wants him, which, like, sure, we've all been there, but yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's all. It feels a bit like Williams did Burton a favor by writing that. It's like, what if I wrote you a vehicle where every woman in the world wants to fuck you and. And your problem is you don't have enough time.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right. Happens, Happens.

[Matt Koplik]

But, yeah, but I feel like that's sort of Blanche's big thing. She's also got a lot of Norma Desmond in her in that way. And she's actually. She predates Norma and the thing. And Mitch even says it to her when they have their fight. When he finally like asks, you know, forces her into the light, he's like, I only see you after 6pm and always like a dimly lit places. And he puts her in the light and he's like, you're older than I thought you were. That's fine. It's everything else that I can't abide by. Like, in the script, in my stage directions, Williams has Blanche listed as at 30, which I think is wild. And he also says, like, Stan and Mitch are like, are about 30. Somewhere between 25 and 30. Stella is 25. As time has progressed, we're like, you know, Blanche is 92, Stella's 30. But we keep casting actresses over 35 in the role. But with Norma, it's what Joe says to Norma. He's like, there's nothing wrong with being 50, unless you're trying to act 20. Nothing makes you look older than trying to act 20 years younger than your age. Very Jenna Maroney coded. And it's. And it's. The less that Jenna Maroney eventually learns in the final season of 30 arc of like, what if I say I'm 10 years older? Everyone will say I look amazing. And like, Blanche thinks that she's 19, 20. So she keeps dressing like she's 19 or 20. She keeps trying to powder herself into oblivion. If she embraces white, it does. Blanche dubois means white dream. No, White Forest.

[Juan Ramirez]

Dubois, yeah, dubois Forest.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Because she says like, think of like either Spring Bloom or Winter Forest, something like that. And then Stella means star in Latin. That's why she says Stella for star, which I imagine was like her childhood nickname for her. Stella for star. But yeah, I don't know, I feel like the. One of the other tragedies of Blanche is just like not accepting age with dignity and allowing herself to just be a hot 35 year old and, and trying sedesically be 20. You know, it just, it makes her more. I hate to use the P word, but pathetic.

[Juan Ramirez]

Sure. Wait, question. Okay, so I discovered in my research for this that Gillian Anderson did her and through young fake who did the original, her production, rather released a little prequel movie. It's 17 minutes long. It's sort of just her coming in and out of her room at the. At the Flamingo. Or maybe it's her room celeb or something.

[Matt Koplik]

It's the Tarantula. The Flamingo is the hotel. Yeah, well, but there are two hotels and I'm sure they both have the same reputation. But Stanley says that he heard that she was at the Flamingo, which is apparently known for having a lot of sex workers. And then when Mitch confronts her about it, she says, no, it was the Tarantula. Right, Tarantula, like spider was that.

[Juan Ramirez]

I always took that as her being as leaning into this nasty idea. It's like, no, it's the tarantula. I'm a black widow.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Are you meant to take that as like. No, I actually live the tarantula over at, you know. Know. I think you get 22.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I think you could go either way.

[Juan Ramirez]

Okay. Interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I think with, with Vivian Leigh, I got the concept that she was saying yes and to the bit of like. Yeah, that's right. I'm a Jezebel. Like, I was at the Tarantula. I'm a giant spider. Fuck you.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Lang, I got the idea that it was true.

[Juan Ramirez]

True. Okay, interesting. Well, so watching Lang for the first time. Because she. She does come in a bit. I don't think it's wounded. I mean, definitely wounded. But I think that her first few scenes, to me are like, oh, you're an alcoholic. Like, she is constantly looking at any bottle that's in the room. And for the first time, I thought, huh. Would there be any value in exploring a prequel for her? I'm usually of the mind of, like, we know we do not need a prequel for anything ever. But she had a colorful life, you know, her last few years in Laurel. Anyway, here comes this Gillian Anderson thing. It's not really, like, neither here nor there. If you want to watch it, it's well produced. You really just sort of see her coming in and out of her room. And, like, at one point, like, I think the hotel room comes in and is like, blanche, stop doing. And, like, whatever. It was cute. I'm glad. I hope Jillian had fun when she did it.

[Matt Koplik]

I would say I wouldn't mind a prequel of Blanche's life, even if it's a miniseries, just like I want to see, because it's essentially. It would just be poor things. Right. It's just an actress getting railed over and over and over again. Because you also learn, like, it's not.

[Juan Ramirez]

I guess it would be just Gone with the Wind.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Scarlet doesn't get railed that much.

[Juan Ramirez]

No, no. But it'll just be, you know, like a slumber and Bell losing everything.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure. For sure. For sure. Well, then building herself up, back from the ground again, she has a moment with Mitch's confrontation with her because, you know, as we said in the second half, Stanley tells him offstage all about Blanche's past, and he comes sort of back in a fury when Stella and Stanley or the hospital, and they have this whole confrontation about it, and Blanche starts to untether. She hears the Pokemon. She hears the gunshot. And she sort of is talking to herself almost. But she mentions how there was an army base near Belle Reeve. And when she was young, the soldiers on their, like, day off would go get drunk, and then, like, they would come to the lawn of her house and, like, shout her name to have her come out and them. And basically, she was like, my mom was practically deaf, so she never heard them. She's like. And I would. I would go out and. And then they would go home. And. And so, like, this reputation was already happening. And I think at that point, I don't know if it necessarily was her trying to look for connection, but we learn early on that she needs A lot of validation from everyone, especially men. Which makes it even the more heartbreaking at the end when she fully breaks in. They're trying to get her out of the house, and she's like, I don't want to walk past those guys because that's the first time she doesn't want men to see her. But, yeah, she's always looking for validation. And I think at that time of her life, pre. Pre homo, she looked at sex as validation, right? Yeah. If they want me this way, that must mean I'm desirable. That must mean I'm worth something. And maybe in her own twisted way, if I can't make. If I can't define my quality as a person by the longevity of their stays, I can at least determine it by the quantity of stays I've had with men, you know?

[Juan Ramirez]

Do you think. What do you think of, like, woundedness as it applies to Stanley? Because something I actually liked about Baldwin's performance, which I'm kind of on the fence about, I think I generally liked it, but not as a result, is that he at one point overhears Blanche telling Stella what she thinks about him. And I feel like Brando, who's sort of doing, like, for the first time ever, a man is being vulnerable. He sort of plays that as like a wounded ape, which I think confirms that. Whereas Baldwin's. Stanley is much more like, who is this bitch and why is she talking about this? Like, he's not. I don't think he's taking any of it to heart.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I. I mean, I think you need to find some vulnerability in there. Otherwise, it's a very long two and a half hours with Stanley if there's not a single moment of it. But I feel that way of any part of any show. Like, it's playing one color for two and a half hours gets. You get numb to it after a while. So I think that's what I like about Brando is Brando from all for. Also from all accounts, like was a very sensitive man behind the scenes. And so he brought him. Him being macho isn't even like the most machoey macho you've ever seen. You still have a lot of emotion to it. Like when he's talking to Stella during Blanche's birthday, when he gives Blanche the ticket and Blanche gets all upset and Stella's like, why are you being like this? And he grabs her and he's telling her, you know, when we met, you thought I was calm and yeah, I was. I took you off. Like, he's not saying it in a vindictive or a menacing way. He's, like, kind of hurt. And he's. He's funneling that emotion out as he's talking to Stella. And when he realizes that something's wrong, she's about to go into labor. Like, gets very sensitive with her. You see a lot of, as you said, wounded bird with him. I think I would like a little bit of it. I don't want. I don't want an actor to try to make us feel for him, to understand him, because he is still the man who does what he does in the last 30 minutes of the play. And there's got to be a reason for that. I don't like a villainous Stanley. It's why I kind of got very uncomfortable when you said that Blair Underwood was very like, mmm, these ladies. I don't. I don't like that it wasn't villainous.

[Juan Ramirez]

I'm just saying that, like, I think he was just portraying sexy.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure. Or, yeah. His version of sexy, I guess. It's like, I don't want anyone playing Stanley to watch hello, little girl from into the woods for inspiration.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right, right, right, right.

[Matt Koplik]

I think that. I don't know, like, it depends on the actor. If you're Bobby Cannavale, watch James Dean for inspiration, but if you're Mike Feist, watch, I don't know, John Wayne. Like, go for the furthest of who you are and you'll find some fine middle ground. Like, who would you want as Stanley these days?

[Juan Ramirez]

Well, I was fucking thinking of that watching the. The Lang version. Not because that one triggered anything in particular, but just, like, who do we have, Right. That I would want playing these people?

[Matt Koplik]

We've got fun actors in straight theater right now, fewer in musicals, but name a few. I don't know. I can't, off the top of my head. Mostly women. Honest. If I'm being honest, we could do.

[Juan Ramirez]

Like a pop girl version. And it's, you know, Sabrina, Olivia and that little gay boy they both dated or whatever.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, Josh. Joshua Bassett.

[Juan Ramirez]

Sure, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

I was actually just thinking, as I was saying, women in theater. And speaking of movie actresses on stage, I think I would like to see Rachel McAdams play Blanche.

[Juan Ramirez]

Interesting. She's so girl next door. That could work, though.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but I think that's type. Yeah, it's very. I think it's very Vivianly coated of Amanda Seifer.

[Juan Ramirez]

Stella.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. She might be a little old for it now, but, like, why not?

[Juan Ramirez]

She reads young.

[Matt Koplik]

I think she does. She does. And, like, they don't have to be that far apart in age, I think. I think having them be five years is actually a good match metric. Because when Blanche was in her debutante prime was when Stella would have been on the cusp of puberty and probably still has this view. Not this view, but, like, remembers Blanche at her best. So seeing her now at her worst makes her constantly want to take care of her and apologize for her and make excuses for her.

[Juan Ramirez]

Florence Pugh could fit into this at all.

[Matt Koplik]

Florence Pugh would be Stella. Okay. Actually, I would do. I would do a Florence Pugh Rachel McAdams Streetcar.

[Juan Ramirez]

Wow.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay.

[Juan Ramirez]

Rachel McAdams as Blanche.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And Pugh as Estella.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And then, I don't know, like, what.

[Juan Ramirez]

Stanley do we have? Like, who do you. Who do you.

[Matt Koplik]

I was trying to think. I. I think he's too.

[Juan Ramirez]

Who's hot and with, like, a modicum of gravitas.

[Matt Koplik]

At this point, my friend Josh is going to giggle at me for saying this, but I. Seth Numerich is a. Is a favorite. He. Now Josh is mad at you. He was the lead in Golden Boy on Broadway. He was the lead in War Horse. He was just in Leopoldstadt, but not a lead in that. He was in Travesties with Tom. What's his face? Hiddleston. No, Hollander. He. I'll show you. He's. He's actually more waspy than I would like. He was. He did Sweet Bird of Youth with Kim Cattrall in London a few years back.

[Juan Ramirez]

Wow.

[Matt Koplik]

He's more pretty boy. But he is. He's an actor who would be able to get to the stage of. Of rawness that I would like. So I'm just trying to think of. Yeah. I'm trying to find a photo of him at his prettiest that also doesn't look like. No, Matthew. That's not a Stanley. Because I'm not saying he should be Stanley, but I do think as an actor, he would be. He would. He would get the acting of it. That's not a great.

[Juan Ramirez]

Okay. I'm being shown a photo of a man in a white tank top smoking a cigarette.

[Matt Koplik]

So already Stanley coated.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

He just did a play at Irish Rep last year. I don't remember which one.

[Juan Ramirez]

Interesting. Yeah, there's a. Yes. Seth normbridge Tumblr. So that's.

[Matt Koplik]

He's got his. He's got his fans other than my friend Josh. And then he just did that play at Lincoln Center Off Broadway that Bartlett Share directed. I can't remember what it was.

[Juan Ramirez]

This Season.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Spring of spring of last season. Yeah. I don't know.

[Juan Ramirez]

Maybe.

[Matt Koplik]

What. Maybe we do the. The 47 Kazan bit and we find someone new to play Stanley.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right? I mean. Yeah, please. I'm trying to think, like, who do I.

[Matt Koplik]

Because I remember who is making me.

[Juan Ramirez]

Horny right now in film. Like.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, not. Not many, huh?

[Juan Ramirez]

Again, I'm leading from a place of. You said people and Williams lead with their loins. Yeah, yeah. They do casting with.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, they. It's. It's dip your junk in bourbon and.

[Juan Ramirez]

Have a good time and call the dogs out.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I've some. I said in the Inheritance episode, and I only know this because I had it quoted back to me on the Discord Channel, but I describe. I described Williams's dialogue as like a ro. A sweaty rose that's sitting in a vase of bourbon. Like, that's instead of water, you have it sitting in bourbon. So, yeah, like, it's just always. It's beautiful and dank, and so you need someone who can give you rawness and float the poetry without. But without making it sound like poetry. You know what I mean?

[Juan Ramirez]

You were saying that none of Matthew Lopez's dialogue did this.

[Matt Koplik]

I would say I was saying that. That is the feeling I was getting of what Lopez was trying to do a lot. I think the most lyrical dialogue and Inheritance works best when you read it and not when being acted.

[Juan Ramirez]

I have no interest in doing that. But if you. If you recommend it, I might.

[Matt Koplik]

I had. I had to. For Zapat, the best dialogue in Inheritance being acted is when he's not trying to be lyrical and he's just writing people and listen. It's like seven hours of content. So it happens from time to time. Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

Everyone can go back to that Inheritance episode if you want. It's both. It's me and Robbie Roselle arguing its merits while also being like, you cannot deny. Even if you like that play, you cannot deny its bumps. And if you hate that play, you cannot deny that there are things in it that are not garbage.

[Juan Ramirez]

What's crazy about it is that every time I check a Playbill, someone on it was in the Inheritance, and I'm like, damn, there were so many fucking people in this cast that did they need to be there? Because I don't remember them being in the play, in the story at all.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, that's the thing. There's so many boys on stage, and then those boys had to have understudies.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

I mean, if anything, keep the gays employed.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. The Inheritance Introduced me to Andrew Burnap. And I'll always be happy about that. I like him much. Who. He's a little too scrawny for Stanley, but he has. I was gonna say, yeah, he's a little too strong. I mean, he's got to put on some. Some meat.

[Juan Ramirez]

I think we could fatten him up.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. Are you asking me to feed Andrew Burnout? Because I will.

[Juan Ramirez]

Like, actual, you know, like, food. There's a chick fil A around the corner. Let's go.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah, I'm on Mike. So I'm say, I'll feed him food. Yeah, I'll feed entry food.

[Juan Ramirez]

Feeding him chick fil a will do about as much good as the inheritance being released on the world that's under the gays.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's what Ron Ramirez has to say about that. So we hear. We have. So I guess we're gonna say a slightly. It doesn't have to be fat. A slightly more dad body. Andrew Burnap for Stanley. Florence Pugh for Stella. Rachel McAdams for Blanche. Yeah, I like that. And then do we have.

[Juan Ramirez]

If you are a man who would like to be Stanley, like, dial in, Dial in.

[Matt Koplik]

And if. And if you have an uncle who could be Mitch, let us know.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I'll be the flower seller.

[Juan Ramirez]

What did you think of John Goodman's Mitch in the Lang one? It didn't really work for me.

[Matt Koplik]

When I saw that he was playing Mitch, I was like, oh, yeah, that's great casting. And then he didn't. He didn't do it for me at all. I mean, Carl Maltin is a hard act to follow. I actually really liked Randy Quaid in the Ann Market version.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I thought he. Because he was sweet. But you also. There was something about him that you're like, I can't put all of my faith into you. I feel like the other shoe's gonna drop at some point, even though you're giving no me no reason for that. And then John Goodman is just like a fucking teddy bear. No, but I thought he was.

[Juan Ramirez]

I mean, at least in his early scenes when we meet him during the poker game with the boys, I feel like he was trying to. He was acting a bit against type and trying to be one of the boys when he should have been more of just like, I'm John Goodman.

[Matt Koplik]

I think. But that's the thing is, I think because he. I. He was trying. I didn't buy it because I was like, you're. You're just too much of a teddy bear. Like Karl Malden. Is a. He is a. He looks like a man and acts like a wannabe gentleman. And I think that sort of Mitch in a nutshell, like he, he is trying to act good and yet at the end of the day still has impulses. Like when he. When Blanche and he have it all out and then Blanche starts sort of to untether. Most people would see this broken woman losing her grip on reality and would try to help or like, if you're being selfish, walk away. Mitch is like, time to make out now.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And she takes it as, oh, he wants to marry me. He's like, no, I'm gonna fuck you. You're too dirty to come into my house and meet my mom.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

And it's, it's just. Again, it just shows, like, no matter what his actions are, his instincts are always going to be there. But. But again, that's sort of the difference between him and Stanley. Stanley uses his instincts as the excuse for his terrible actions.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, sure. You know who would be a good Stanley? Yahya Abdul Mateen from Top Dog, Underdog and Watchmen.

[Matt Koplik]

He would. He was great in Top Dog. I have a bad taste.

[Juan Ramirez]

He was good. I think Corey Hoggins like ran laps around him.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, that's also the better part. That's absolutely the better part. It was same was true the first time around, but the. I have. I have a bad taste in my mouth with him after the Theater World Awards two years ago.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because he was. I think he was the. He wasn't the first one up. He was like the fourth one up to give. To give his acceptance speech and one. A Theater World Award.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because it was his Broadway debut.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And it was all. And it was the dude from the Kite Runner and they were the.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh my God, I forgot about that.

[Matt Koplik]

You're lucky. I still think about it from time.

[Juan Ramirez]

To time, but a summer lark if I ever saw one.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Oh, God.

[Juan Ramirez]

Take.

[Matt Koplik]

Take the kids and see the Kite Runner. Watch a boy get buck fucked at the end of act one. So the. Those two actors coming from TV, doing Broadway and being straight, they like had these 25 minute long acceptance speeches that I was. And they got angry when the piano player who was there to play them off was like, we gotta wrap things up. We've got 20 other people to get through. Like, you're making Jessica Chastain and Darcy Cardin wait for their awards while you keep talking. And then like Jessica and Darcy and. And Jodie Comer, like, to their credit, like, came up and they're like, they spoke for two minutes and they said, oh, my God, I'm rambling. I'm so sorry. Like, I know we gotta wrap things up. I'm like, you're fine. This motherfucker went off for 25 minutes and got mad when we were like, can you end it now? So he would be good. But I'm also like, maybe that's right for Stanley. That I'm like, I also just don't want to look at him for a minute.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yaya.

[Matt Koplik]

Yaya.

[Juan Ramirez]

You don't want to look at him because of this experience.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

I spent my whole life looking at.

[Matt Koplik]

Him because I'm just going to remember those 25 minutes where I was glued to my seat and listened to him talk about how when he was at school, he believed in him. And I'm like, okay, yes, great.

[Juan Ramirez]

There are. I'm sure there are better ways to spend 25 minutes with Yaya.

[Matt Koplik]

There are like 9 million better ways to spend 25 minutes of Yaya and none of them. You'll see my hand. So on that note, let's take one other break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean?

[Juan Ramirez]

You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Estee.

[Matt Koplik]

And we're back. So Juan is looking through his phone at every man who's ever been nominated for an Oscar on Tony, rather sorry or Tony. I'm looking through my Rolodex of any man who's been through my spank bank.

[Juan Ramirez]

Tony Shalhoub, Danny Burstein, Richard Kind.

[Matt Koplik]

Are you looking at actor in a musical?

[Juan Ramirez]

No, this is featured actor feature.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah, I hear Tony Shalhoub. I'm like, oh, yes. Lead actor in a musical. Yeah. I don't know. We don't have a lot of younger men nominated in.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, these Cat Horiscu old.

[Matt Koplik]

They do skew old.

[Juan Ramirez]

Interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

What about the dude who played the homophobe and Take Me Out Michael, what's his face? Would he be good?

[Juan Ramirez]

Oberholzer? I want to say. Yeah, why not? Maybe it's a bit too obvious. Maybe. What about what's his face? What about Jesse Williams?

[Matt Koplik]

Do you think he can get there?

[Juan Ramirez]

I really liked him in Taking Me Out.

[Matt Koplik]

I liked him too.

[Juan Ramirez]

I don't know if it was a perfect match of, you know, like. Well, that I remember the friend. The friend. I took the. I randomly saw that play three times. And not because of the dick. Everyone I Promise you, there were reasons beyond me, beyond my power. I had a friend who said, like, his performance is very Go girl, give us nothing. And I thought that was kind of a choice. Like, I don't think he just gave us nothing. I think he chose to be a very sort of guarded person.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, the character is a narcissist with a guard up. And I thought that he played that.

[Juan Ramirez]

But for my understanding, what's his face?

[Matt Koplik]

Daniel Zenyatta.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah. Was not that. And he was much more charismatic.

[Matt Koplik]

It's entirely possible there's also, you know, the first interpretation of that role. So it's entirely. It's also entirely possible that Jesse Williams wanted to go. Knew that and went a different direction. That's always the problem with revivals is people's heads go with I can't do the original and. And skew in a direction that's so off course sometimes that you're like, maybe there's. There are worse things than a carbon copy sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jesse Williams would be good. Honestly, Daniel Signata, during his take me out years would have been great.

[Juan Ramirez]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a shame that we didn't cast him instead of John C. Reilly with opposite Natasha Richardson.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And also maybe not have a British director just. Just saying.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, sure. Interesting. Because I know. Well, I never saw it, of course, but the. There was a Chichester production of Hotel Room.

[Matt Koplik]

Of Hotel Room.

[Juan Ramirez]

No, no. What's the Tennessee Limits where they're in the hotel room. We're just talking about it.

[Matt Koplik]

Sweeper of youth.

[Juan Ramirez]

Sweeper of Youth. That apparently was really good.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Well, I don't trust Brits anymore.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. It's very rare when I see a Brit do an American work. Well, when they. It's one of these things where, like when they do it well, it's a home run and changes everything. But like when they don't.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

It's painful. And I don't trust people who see it and say it's wonderful. And then I go see it and it's boring or garbage. Like one. How many times have you gone to see something that everyone in your friend group, all of the gays have been like, girl, you're going to eat and then you walk home hungry.

[Juan Ramirez]

All of the gays are ever in my friend group.

[Matt Koplik]

You have. Your whole friend group is gays. According to Instagram.

[Juan Ramirez]

But.

[Matt Koplik]

Is your Instagram a lie? Are you telling me social media is a lie? Cuz according to your.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, mine's painfully. Actually very truthful to.

[Matt Koplik]

I say, according to your Instagram you know, every single gay in Manhattan.

[Juan Ramirez]

That's not true. A lot of them in Brooklyn.

[Matt Koplik]

Even worse.

[Juan Ramirez]

Is there anything that I'm sort of. For a long time, I was actually the holdout of my friend group to be like, no, no, guys. Like, there is merit in Brits doing musical theater. And then my last. Actually, not this last one, notwithstanding this last one I was standing the past two years I've had over there. I'm like, oh, my God, we have got to stop theater in London and not do anything new before we figure it out. What is something that I've not liked that everyone else has loved in my Frank year, specifically?

[Matt Koplik]

Why'd you say Frank?

[Juan Ramirez]

I don't know. I mean, look, I'm seeing Sunset next week and me too shall see.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm going Tuesday. Okay. I'm not you. They. I. They just got back to me today and said that they couldn't get me press tickets, which makes total sense.

[Juan Ramirez]

We'll see. Have you. You haven't seen it?

[Matt Koplik]

I haven't seen it. I. I have friends who saw it in London. Everyone said it was worth seeing.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Not all of them said it was objectively great.

[Juan Ramirez]

Really? Wait, can you. I've. I'm. I feel like I'm losing my mind because Sunset is a musical that I love, but I'll be the first to say that, like, so much of it is bad.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay.

[Juan Ramirez]

But it works for me.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Juan Ramirez]

I have not heard a single bad thing about this. But I also. I also don't know if the people. I do know, some people whose opinion I trust and, like, who see a shit ton of theater and, like, who just write critics here and go there every now and then. Like, I do. Saw this one, came back, loved it. But I feel like I'm also hearing a lot of people who have no idea what Sunset is, and they're just gagged at Nicole Scherzinger and the blood and the nakedness and the blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, is it Sunset? Well, in fairness, I also don't want to be a purist and be like, we can only have, you know, the giant staircase.

[Matt Koplik]

In fairness to them, they're writers of the musical Sunset. Also don't know what Sunset is. But I. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Sunset Boulevard, the musical is the worst thing ever. I think that the movie is a masterpiece, and I think that Andrew Lloyd Webber misunderstood the assignment half of the time, always writing music that was catchy and. And good for the year. And a lot of it on point with the tone. The fact that this production has cut the ladies paying already gives me faith because that's my. That's my main example. That's my go to every time where I'm like, that's a song where they didn't understand with alignment. In the movie. In the movie, it's.

[Juan Ramirez]

It's either one of the more cynical.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's good.

[Juan Ramirez]

Take the expensive coke.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's Joe realizing that his guilted Cajun catboyism is actually far more transparent than he realized that everyone is aware of what's going on with him, and this is officially what's happening. Whereas in the musical, they're like, okay, shopping number. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like makeover.

[Juan Ramirez]

This is randomly be, like, kind of homophobic in this movie.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. Like, and let's make sure all of the attendants are uber gay and ogling Joe.

[Juan Ramirez]

And I'm like, jesus, shut up. I'm rich, not some platinum blonde. I own so many apartments I forgot which is bitch.

[Matt Koplik]

And also without it, we don't have eternal youth is worth a little suffering, which has better harmonies.

[Juan Ramirez]

Uhhuh.

[Matt Koplik]

But also. And. And better lyrics. But also. I am not mad that it's cut. Everything I've seen, and I've only seen stills and people photos, videos from Curtain Call, I have a distinct feeling that this is a production I will never forget. Is this a production where I'm like, oh, this understands Sunset Boulevard better than anyone ever could have hoped for? No, I don't think that's what Jamie Lloyd's about in this. I'm going into this with the same mentality, and my listeners are tired of hearing me say this. I'm going into this with the same mentality I had with Eva Van Hoffe's Crucible, where I'm just like, bring it on. What are you gonna do?

[Juan Ramirez]

That's okay. So I've been telling people all year, I have three things that are. That are happening at the end of this calendar year that people ask me like, oh, my God, what do you think of this? What do you think it's gonna be? And I'm like, look, three things. The Sunset Boulevard revival, the Gypsy revival, the Wicked movie, All three will happen. I will be there at least once for each. There is no sense in me forming an opinion before I go, because they are going to happen.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, they are happening.

[Juan Ramirez]

They're good or bad. They are happening. And I am going to.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Evaluate later.

[Matt Koplik]

I have to. I'm. I am doing my damnedest to keep all wicked content out of my socials right now because I'm trying so hard to go in with an open mind. And the more people talk about it, the more negative I get on the movie. And it's not the movie's fault. Like, they're trying to drum up interest, but, like, just people who I don't care to hear from having opinions and posting them online. And I'm like, listen, I have this podcast. Yes, we all know. I haven't actually written anything on Instagram about my opinions about anything in a long time. Because ultimately it doesn't matter. I don't want to contribute to any kind of conversation about it. I'm not gonna write a fucking Instagram review about the Wicked movie. Who cares? It exists. It's there.

[Juan Ramirez]

The people care. Are you gonna watch an episode? Maybe. Maybe you should. You owe it to the listeners.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe. I'm so exhausted already, but it's a month away, so I'm sure that I'll have energy by then. But Sunset, I will say so I'm seeing Sunset next Tuesday. I'm seeing Our Town tonight as we're recording this.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, you're there.

[Matt Koplik]

I'll see you there. And I've heard. I've heard some things about this one as well, but I'm trying to go on again, open mind. I'm seeing Drag the Musical tomorrow. I'm seeing left on 10th on the 27th. It's just like. And I'm seeing Romeo and Juliet on the 22nd. But Sunday, it's a Tuesday when I'm seeing Romeo and Juliet. But that one also, from what Everything I understand is just like. Again, it's just. That's an American director. Just like, people going, okay, choices. How do we make you rethink this differently? And from everything I've been told about Stupid as hell. Yeah. Well, I do think with revivals, you have to take the mentality of, how do we get an audience to feel how they felt the first time this was done? And what that means differs based on the show for something like a hello, Dolly. How do we make this so delightful again? And ultimately, they kind of went back to formula of like, well, let's look at the blueprints of the original. Let's do a lot of the original choreo and staging and design, but, like, spruce stuff for 2017. And for something like South Pacific, it's. Well, let's delve into the text because this was a Pulitzer Prize winning musical. Like, what made this deep? And they found it. For me, something like Sunset is like, okay.

[Juan Ramirez]

Sure, that's how I felt about Cats. I'm like, I don't give a shit about Cats. Do whatever you want with it. It'll probably can only ever improve, but some of these pictures of sunset that I'm seeing, it's like these half naked twinks writhing around in blood. I'm like, is this the Paramount lot? What scene is this? I'm confused. And you know what I mean. Again, why am I forming an opinion before I see it? It's gonna happen. I would hate for this to be a production that is wagging its finger at the audience, which is the only way I could see. See the title number, Sunset Boulevard being played in the streets. Like, are we being implicated in the Hollywood thing? And like, you know, Tom is going to be. Blah, blah, blah. It ultimately don't want to be finger wagged.

[Matt Koplik]

No, it ultimately just looks like a gimmick to me, but one that's exciting in the room. That's what I. That's the vibe I keep getting. No one has been able. But no one. I. Me too. No one has been able to successfully explain to me why that number is staged the way that it is. All they can say is that it's exciting when you watch it.

[Juan Ramirez]

Also. Did he. Did he win the Olivier?

[Matt Koplik]

He did.

[Juan Ramirez]

Okay, Olivia. I mean, after Back to the Future one, Best musical, I'm like, this man, his name means nothing to anyone anymore.

[Matt Koplik]

But do you want to say that show's title again? What was that? Back to the Future.

[Juan Ramirez]

Back to the. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Bachelor. A musical that talk about not having opinions. I've never said anything about that show once.

[Juan Ramirez]

I generally don't think I have because I think I walked out and I was like, no one asked me about this anymore. Bye. Like, but no, I'm like, how again, we'll see. And maybe this kid knocks out of the fucking park. But I just cannot see ever how Tom could be a winning performance.

[Matt Koplik]

Joe, Joe, Joe. Sorry.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, Joe.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Who the hell's Tom?

[Matt Koplik]

I think that's the name of the actor she's playing it.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yes, yes, correct.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry, Tom. Yeah. Tom, how could you be a Tony winning person? No, yeah, Joe. But I mean. Yeah, well, how can Betty be a Olivier nominated role? Like, what the is that?

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, sure. Again, maybe. Maybe they've whittled these, you know, characters really getting to the meat of it.

[Matt Koplik]

We know how that is. We know how feel about Kunzy. Even she couldn't save that role in la. Like, that is a role that only works in the movie because Nancy Olsen plays it. Against ingenue type like she. The role exists for the. For the contrast of Norma and Nancy's like, well, okay, but I'm not going to play it like Sweet Anu. I'm going to play it like a hardened Hollywood type. And she's like, also, I'm kind of secretly a lesbian. They're like, great, fantastic. Go for it. But then on stage, she was like, please, can you tell me what's happening? I hate it. But so with Sunset and Streetcar, go back to Streetcar, because we're talking about British directors. I'm trying to think of the last time a British director did an American work that I loved.

[Juan Ramirez]

I liked Caroline or Change.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. I did not. Why did you like it?

[Juan Ramirez]

It was my exposure to the material. I'll give it that. Sure, it worked. I mean, does it need to be this, like, sparse Greek drama? Maybe, but no. No, it doesn't actually. Huh. Last. I mean, I don't know. I'm still reeling from this cabaret.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

And her, she said she did the. Whatever. The Paul Mescal Streetcar.

[Matt Koplik]

She did do the Paul Mescal Streetcar, but also that fucking cabaret. All of the people I knew who saw it in London who were like, you don't understand how amazing it is in London. I'm like, is it the same staging? Is it the same costumes? It's. Because otherwise, I don't know what we're talking about.

[Juan Ramirez]

I'll say this, my friend who just saw it with Adam Lambert and Ollie Carbello, he said, like, oh, I do think ultimately Cabaret is like pizza, where no matter, you know what you do to it, you can't fuck it up too bad. And I saw. I saw it twice in London. I hated it from the beginning without Eddie. I thought I saw it with. Fuck. I was an understudy at the time. And then I think he was like, actually was cast when it. No, it's frothy. Who was the understudy at first, And I think he was like. He did, like, stint in it. And who's the woman who does it in the Olivia broadcast? She's in. Amy Lennox. Amy Lennox hated the production. Like, them. Fine enough. I felt that way sort about. About the cabaret. I'm like, you know what to go to show. Whatever. The next year, I went back to London, my friend, and I rushed it. We saw it, and I was like, okay, I hate this production, but how bad a time can I have? Cut to me seeing Eddie Redmayne, and I'm like, no, you are the. The poison pepperoni in the pizza this cabaret. What the. Did I just watch?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. You're giving me food poisoning, baby. I. Yeah, I. I saw that production twice. I saw it right after it opened with everybody, and then I had a friend go on in a principal track, so I went back to see them in it, and that was in July. And when I tell you that, like, I disliked Gail in April, I hate. Hated her in July. And I like. I just. I have. I have such food poisoning with that production now. I don't desire to go back, no matter who's in it. Like, unless Hayden and Sally Murphy themselves are playing the MC and. And Sally Bowles, I will not be going back.

[Juan Ramirez]

No, no. I kind of. I kind of want it out as soon as possible so we can, you know, start the countdown for the next revival.

[Matt Koplik]

For sure. For sure. I. We don't. We don't like it when people are out of work. But also, we want a new show.

[Juan Ramirez]

Will take that place, by the way.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And people will get. I hate that argument, too, because every show that closes, another show comes in and new people get work.

[Juan Ramirez]

Like, hey, maybe try to make a good show so you won't close.

[Matt Koplik]

And also, we can't talk about how we need new stories if we bemoan shows closing. Like, no, the only way a new story can be seen on Broadway is if a new store, if a show closes so that theater can tell that new story. We only have finite number of theaters, baby. Jamie Lloyd. So Doll's House isn't. What are you doing next after Sunset?

[Juan Ramirez]

There's already. There's already an attack.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, he's doing. He's doing. God damn it. He's doing something in London, but that's.

[Juan Ramirez]

Definitely coming here type of thing, right?

[Matt Koplik]

Probably, I think. Is it with Cate Planchette? Oh, I mean, I feel like he's doing something for it. Look it up. But he did the Doll's House with Jessica Chastain that I actually really enjoyed. But that's not American now. It's Ibsen British doing an American work.

[Juan Ramirez]

He's directing a Shakespeare season at Drury Lane with the Tempest with Sigourney Weaver and Much Ado About Nothing with Tom Hiddleston. I don't think that's what I'm talking about.

[Matt Koplik]

Where the fuck did I get Blanchett from? I think Sigourney Weaver in the Tempest is what I was remembering. She's playing Prospero.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, famously, Heitner did my Carousel. I love that one. And then Mendez did cabaret in the 90s. But I also think that Mendez's Cabaret was as successful as it was when he had Rob Marshall join him. I don't remember which episode I talked about this on, but Mendes understood the Berlin stories, whereas Rob Marshall understood Cabaret, and that is what made that revival so successful. Mendes got the actors to where that story needed to be, and Marshall brought the musical theater know how. And there's nobody in this current production of Cabaret on the production team that understands musical theater. And I will say that till the cows come home. Luckily, I don't think you need someone who understands musical theater to do Streetcar Name Desire, but I do think you need someone with musicality. To them, there's. Music is a major point of this play.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I think it tells you how ironclad and successful this work is that it keeps getting adapted into other mediums, not just film and tv, but like it's been made into an opera. Andre.

[Juan Ramirez]

I know. I started listening to it and it was beautiful.

[Matt Koplik]

Was it lovely? I was reading some reviews for it. They were like, preference come up with some wonderful passages. They go. However, watching it, you understand now why Streetcar hasn't been made into an opera until now.

[Juan Ramirez]

I'm. I'm a very. I'm. I'm kind of an opera neophyte. Like, I'm not same. My. My engagement with the. With the form is sort of like, I liked it or I didn't like it. It's very. I mean, it's. It's. It's leaning into sort of like a Southern glamour, bluesy strings. I liked it. It's not. I'm here for that discordant. Like, whatever. But I bring that up to say that every opera review I read, I'm like, this is so fucking nasty. And it's so. I mean, every review should be subjective, but it's so sort of. Well, I didn't like it because. Blah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's like, okay, well. So I was talking to a mutual friend of ours because they are an opera fanatic. Won't say them on mic because this is hot take. But they were saying that, like all. Pretty much every modern opera has been trashed.

[Juan Ramirez]

I've disliked everyone I've seen.

[Matt Koplik]

And I asked because I'd seen Grounded and I said we walked out at intermission. Is. Am I. Am I a bad person?

[Juan Ramirez]

I listened to your review and I was like, no, you should have stayed because I can act out really good. I fell asleep a bit to the first time.

[Matt Koplik]

But then the Times was like that act two was bad.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, interesting. I'm at the Times review yet.

[Matt Koplik]

But I saw. I. But, but, but, but, but. But this goes back to. Most critics of opera don't like anything new. And. And I asked him, I said, like, what was the last time a new opera got good reviews? And I think they said Nixon in China. And even that wasn't, like, universally liked. And so I think it just takes a lot with opera now. I think it just takes everyone a lot of time and distance to recognize the quality of something at some point. But with. I think with. With Streetcar, because that came out in the 90s, that opera, I want to say. Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Renee Fleming's in it, so. Sounds about right.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, Kobe, 1967. I don't.

[Juan Ramirez]

Not a drag, by the way.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I just don't know how old that is.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, it seems like the 90s is, like, when she would be this.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, she has. Basically, she was perpetually 45 for me, until one day I was like, oh, she's 75. But I don't know when that turn happened. Yeah. And I also don't know if that's accurate, but I would like to listen to that Streetcar, because I'm just going off of the reviews I read. But those reviews are all skewed. They also have had many ballets. A Streetcar. And I see that. Yeah, I think. I think that's something that would work well. I wonder if it's with original music or canned music.

[Juan Ramirez]

Wait, we haven't even talked about this. Oh, my God. But did you. I forget if they ever actually staged it, but did you ever listen to the Williamstown Audible production, new, starring Audra McDonald and Carla Gugino?

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, the Sleigh of Sleighs. Are you kidding? So Williamstown, obviously, they're, you know, summers is. And got cut in 2020 or not cut. Didn't happen.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

So they produced, I think, the three works they were planning on it, which were. What's that play photograph 51, or whatever that Nicole Kidman did in the West End, which actually managed to see. Because I was living in limited time. Boring, Boring stage play works as a podcast. It was Anna.

[Matt Koplik]

Anna Klumsky.

[Juan Ramirez]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

From. From Veep and My Girl and Amazing.

[Juan Ramirez]

And the same reason that worked for me versus on stage is the same reason that Streetcar Wool works, period. But, like, you just. It was the most intimate sort of gossip session between like, you know, sort of asmr, Audra and Carlo Gugino. Have you not written the Streetcar Named Desire? Well, of course I wrote it here. You know, just like, oh, I'm at the gym, listening to this, like, little stupid little Williamstown podcast or whatever. Like, it was delicious. I forget who the men were, but. Oh, you. Everyone should listen to it. I'm. It's on audible. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. I will listen. You had me at Audra, babe. I should listen to that. I. That. That is. That is an interesting take to do such an intimate audio presentation of Streetcar.

[Juan Ramirez]

Ariel Shafir. Stan Lee. That sounds familiar. Ariel Shaft o' Hara directed.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay.

[Juan Ramirez]

Who is very hit or miss with the classics.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Juan Ramirez]

Ariel Shafir. That's not only Murders in the Building. When they see us in the center. No, I'm just kidding.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, Ariel. Satchel. Is that the guy from Band's visit?

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So I was confusing them for a second. Yeah. I mean, so if a production is happening this season, A Streetcar. We talked about sort of how to have fun with Williams, how to make Williams work. But what are some pivotal moments in that show that, like, if you can't nail this, it doesn't matter what you do with the rest?

[Juan Ramirez]

I think that that exchange with Stella and Blanche, that sort of sisterly have you. Don't you have sex? Like, yeah, girl, I do. But, like, blah, blah. How do you live like this?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

I think that is, to me, at least, watching the Anna Margaret one, I'm like, how is this staged so poorly? And how am I not being sold on any this? And I think that's sort of the most. The most fun. The plays.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

So that.

[Matt Koplik]

It was interesting. It was fascinating watching that scene again in the original movie this morning, because I was surprised, like, at actually how much more overtly sexual it is of, like, so clearly the morning after a night of fear. Right.

[Juan Ramirez]

I mean, the stage directions are, like, there Stella is writhing and moaning in bed.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And, like, and Kim Hunter is doing that, like, and fully naked under those sheets. And then both TV movies, like, she's already in her kimono. Like, what are we doing here 30 years later? We should be up on the Times.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, I think that's a great moment. Blanche is such a hard role to open with because she comes in fluttery and fragile. She says something along the lines of, soft people have to have color, like butterfly wings. Which I think is very apropos to who she is. But it's hard to come in that way at the start and that and not have an audience think to themselves, I'm watching an actress act right now. You know, you have to find a balance of a woman who is all about presentation, a woman who is on the brink and. And being able to pull it all together enough so that first scene is not unendurable.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, and that's. I think that's so that for you.

[Juan Ramirez]

That the starting point is the. The point where, you know if the streetcar is gonna be good or no.

[Matt Koplik]

That was me just going off on another side point. I think for me, that's a great scene. You mentioned something that has to land. I think that whole. I. I would. I say, like the. The Mitch Blanche date scene. When they come home and light the candle to be, like, bohemian. It seems so insignificant at first when you just like, oh, yeah, they're. They're date. Because it's not Stanley. But ultimately it's what she reveals and how they are together. And also ends with one of the most famous lines of the play, which is, sometimes there's God so quickly. But it's. It's a scene that can drag. It's a scene that can be over sentimentalized. And if you can nail that tempo and that tone, I think the whole rest of the play can fall into place after that. Because that you ultimately are getting to the root of Blanche's vulnerability and strength in one and her sensuality in one and the enter heirs and her presentation. And if you can nail how Mitch is a man with urges, but also trying to be a respectful human being. Because also the thing about Streetcars, it's Williams being like, we're really just animals. And we've put in place all of these rules. Rules and codes. That's the only thing really differentiating ourselves from wolves and bears and lions. And some of those codes are stupid. Some of them are necessary out of just like human decency and compassion. And you see where the line gets crossed in the second half. So I think sort of toying with those lines because Mitch also, like, kind of makes a very aggressive pass at Blanche in that scene for a minute. Like, he starts trying to kiss her and fondle her. And he's like, you tell me when I'm going too far. And then she kind of like, immediately does. And when you watch the original movie, like, Karl Malden is all up in Vivien Leigh's grill. He's, like, smushing himself into her being. Like, if I press harder, she'll say yes. And playing it off is like, but I just want you, baby.

[Juan Ramirez]

It wasn't the kissing I objected to. It was the other familiarity, which I had to discourage.

[Matt Koplik]

I was somewhat flattered that you wanted me, that you desired me. It's. Oh, God, it's so fun. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean?

[Juan Ramirez]

You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire.

[Matt Koplik]

But I was more saying with that opening scene of what makes Blanche both this role that so many actresses want to play, but also makes it so hard to play. And I wonder if, if so think like Williams has all these great roles for women, right? And. And Glass Menagerie, which is his absolute breakthrough, is known for artistically many things as the Memory Play. The scene with Laura and the Gentleman Caller, with Amanda being this amazing role for women of a certain age. At the time, it was so famous for bringing Laurette Taylor back to the stage. And have you seen Broadway the Golden Age, that documentary? I point to it all the time. Of how our theater culture and theater today you can. One of the ways you know that it's not quite as good is that you ask people like of a certain age group in theater right now, like, what's the best performance you've ever seen? It scatters all over the place. And when you watch Broadway the Golden Age, they all say Laurette Taylor and the Glass Menagerie. And they've. And this is being recorded over like a four year period. So no one knows what anyone else is saying. So it's everyone. It's Gina Rollins, it's UTA Hagen, it's everyone being like, it's Lorette Taylor in the Glass Menagerie. I'm like, that is how. That's the difference between then and now, that is.

[Juan Ramirez]

Last year I interviewed Cola Scola about which celebrities that are alive would they want to have? Would they put an Uber XL on the way to a party? And they said, Laurette Taylor Cole knows their.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but it's also like that, that performance and Streisand on opening night of Funny Girl, back when she gave a shit, are the two performances I most want to see.

[Juan Ramirez]

Looked at that music director and said, I'm gonna make your life hell, by the way.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, absolutely. When she was like, we're doing the C version where the show is 30 minutes shorter and I choose the tempos and key changes. But yeah, like Opening Night when she had something to prove, and Lorette Taylor and Glass Menagerie. But it's. I say this because this all comes back to these roles for women that are catnip for, you know, really great actresses. But also I feel like are Kind of catnip for the gays. I'd say Williams does a lot of stuff for us both of the. The male gaze of the male figure, of us being able to watch Paul Newman in Cat on a Hudson Roof or Brando in Streetcar, you know, sweet, Sweet Bird of youth. Anything like that. But then also just watching our divas. Diva. Yeah, but Blanche is not a diva. E role. It's. It's very operatic and like she has a mad scene and all that, but she doesn't get to be the Princess Kaba. No, but it's.

[Juan Ramirez]

Do you know this is not. This is halfway applicable. Do you know the YouTube channel? Be kind Rewind.

[Matt Koplik]

Of course.

[Juan Ramirez]

Okay. Love.

[Matt Koplik]

Watched it for preparation for this.

[Juan Ramirez]

Have you seen the Miss Piggy episode? Yes, I think it's that sort of camp. This. This character who is very obviously a pig, but is, you know, clinging to these delusions of, like, pearls and, you know, blah, blah, blah, like literally pearls before swine. I think that's pretty much like. That's kind of the. The. The allure. The gay allure to Blanche.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, yeah, but. But also to any Williams leading role. Right. Of. Of. There's a messiness to them and a grandeur and a glamor to them as well. It's. It's. We never actually see a Blanche in Streetcar. That looks like a disaster right there. There's always a bit of.

[Juan Ramirez]

And I would hate to. I would hate to. I'm like, I'm cringing at the thought of a British director. It would have to be British director doing like, I'm gonna do a dirty, disgusting. Everyone's gross.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but think about Geraldine Page in the movie version of Sweet Bird of Youth, which is perhaps the most beautiful she's ever looked on film.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Playing a mess of a movie actress. But it's the. The gorgeous red hair she has and. And the eye makeup and the allure she has while also being drunk off her ass and, like, barely able to stand up. Yeah, it's there. There's so much gay codedness in the women in Williams plays of. Of presentation of bitchiness, of brokenness, of sexuality, of love lust, of bed hopping, of. And owning your sexuality too. Right. Because some plays, the women are far more in control of their body and their desires. And for someone like Blanche, I would argue she actually is in control of it. She never is sexual with abandon. She's. She is a hypocrite because she'll let loose and then pretend. Then it's like memento. The next day she forgets Everything. But, you know, she's a character who has all of these urges and, and fantasies and is almost larger than life while also being incredibly realistically broken to life. And I think we a gravitate towards that. But then also just would love to see actresses tackle shit like that. Right?

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, it's why we love Blanche Devereaux. A different Blanche in Golden Girls. She's all of those things, but positive. She's sex positive. She's delusion positive. Narcissism. Positive. Played. Played for happiness. Which is, I think, also just why Golden Girls is in all of our bloodstreams. Right. It's more digestible that way. Yeah. I don't know. Do you have like, certain roles in the theatrical canon that you're like, I. I don't care who's playing it. I just always like to see that part get played. Is it Blanche?

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, but in terms of role as opposed to like the whole play?

[Matt Koplik]

Because the musical musicals are harder because not many musicals are revived as often as plays, despite the jokes we make about Gypsy.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But like, if we were. If we had a Piazza every three years, I'd be like, yeah, I'm gonna go see whoever's playing Margaret in that.

[Juan Ramirez]

Like. And your in would be Margaret, not just Piazza.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, yes, we love Piazza in the same way that I love Streetcar. But like, I want to see whoever's gonna play that role and also play another southern part, by the way.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right, of course.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, I'm not going to see a production of Piazza be like, oh, my God, they got him as Sabrizio. I'm like, no, who's the.

[Juan Ramirez]

Sure, sure, sure, sure. Like, who would be the one that I'm like, I actually don't need to see this production. What's yours, Blanche?

[Matt Koplik]

For play.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, please.

[Matt Koplik]

It's actually probably. It's hard for Williams again. I've only seen Glass Menagerie live, but I actually didn't see Cat in a Hot Tin Roof last time because I wasn't on board with Scarlett Johansson as Maggie.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, I saw it and I loved it.

[Matt Koplik]

You're the one that's the production that temporarily killed Rob Ashford's directing career.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, my God. Well, never forget. I don't disagree. But I'll never forget forget Joan Rivers on Theater Talk being like, maggie the cat is pigeon toed. No one wants to her. Oh, Joan, I miss that kind of read.

[Matt Koplik]

What? I always love watching photos of actresses as Maggie the Cat. Even if I don't agree with the casting, like the, the production, the Publicity photos of Ashley Judd as Maggie the Cat. I'm like, she looks like a million bucks. I don't want to see that. I wish I had seen Kathleen Turner do it in 1990. I'll bet that was good. I would. Yeah. There are a whole bunch of actresses that I'm, like, eager to see play.

[Juan Ramirez]

Cat is so interesting or. Yeah, kind of interesting because I watched it. I saw production two, three years ago. Off Broadway is the first Off Broadway staging of Cat on Hunter Nerf. And I. I really enjoyed it. I actually got into trouble with some queens because they were like, how the could you have given this a good review?

[Matt Koplik]

In Trouble with Queens?

[Juan Ramirez]

My God, I know me. It was just so sort of, like, trashy in a fun way that I'm like, oh, I think you really kind of understand what Williams was getting at. And it's. Maggie was just sort of this, like, nasty. You, Ms. Grad who, like, married the wrong dude, and now she's just pissed.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Like, it was not this sort of, like, calculating, you know, like, bombshell. It was just this, like, girl who met some dude at a frat party, and now she's stuck in this hell and, like, taking it on everyone. And I loved it.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a shame we actually Never got early 1970s, late 60s Elizabeth Taylor playing Blanche in Streetcar.

[Juan Ramirez]

I think I'm fine, actually, without having seen that. I think just not in, like, no disrespect or hers. He probably would have killed it. I would probably love it if we had it. But I think having her Martha in Virginia Woolf and having her Maggie in Cat movie, I'm like, okay, I could triangulate your Blanche from this.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure, sure. It's one of the things where I just. I'm like, oh, that would have been nice. Because with Maggie and with suddenly last summer, like, we know she can handle the Williams. She knows. She knows how to be sexy. Boom and boom. She just, like, she knows how to have fun. I just love her scream on that cliff. And suddenly last summer, during the flashback, I'm like, that girl is screaming for Jesus. I think, like, any.

[Juan Ramirez]

Back to the thing you were saying about, like, what if we cast, you know, a not sexy Stanley? I do think some of these roles need to have just star quality.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

A. It's a shortcut to, like, okay, like, we're attracted to this person. What's next? But just, yes. Elizabeth Taylor. For me, like, I remember discovering her actual film roles. You know, I sort of grew up just thinking that she was, like, a Hollywood star. Sadiba Whatever. Like, didn't really think about her acting. And then actually seeing her act, I'm like, oh, you're really fucking good. So I feel like that's. You need someone who. I think you start with just the star Persona. Like, what about, like, what if, like, an Angelina had done cat?

[Matt Koplik]

Don't put that in my head now. I'm sad.

[Juan Ramirez]

We don't have that.

[Matt Koplik]

We don't have it. Yeah. My God, that would have been great. Angelina, she wasn't acting for so long, and now she's, like, slowly coming back and all the roles she could have done in the last 10 years. My God, she would have been an amazing Maggie. My Lord. Well, with the right director, I guess. Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Would we see her in Streetcar?

[Matt Koplik]

She could have. I think she would have been in a very nice Blanche. I think, ultimately she does project a bit too much health.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah. Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's not anything that she can control. And that's actually something that Brantley said in his review about Natasha Richardson. He was like, she. She just looks too healthy.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, yeah, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, he's like, she comes out. And again, Margaret Ann Marcus was sort of the same thing. Like, she comes out a little too together, which allows, I think, her breakdown in the second half to resonate well. But it is. You are pulling off a very dangerous game. However you decide to play Blanche in that first scene. If you go full lang of, like, both of my wings are clipped. I have 2 ounces of oxygen in my lungs. Or you're Ann Margaret, and you're like, I just got off the set of Dynasty. Like, it's either either way, you're alienating parts of the audience. If you can make the rest of the show work, we will forgive you for that for the first scene, but, like, it's hard to make the first scene work. And I was rereading Brooks Atkinson's review of the original production. It's so fascinating because it's a glowing review overall, but it's a love letter to Jessica Tandy, who, until that point was a working actress, not like a star. And he just goes on and on about how Abe lynch is this amazing creation, but that, like, Tandy sells it in a way that, like, you, he's like, you've never seen acting like this. And, like, the only reason why this role can work as well as it does because Tandy, like, plays to perfection from the moment she comes on stage, the moment it ends. And then at the end, he's just like. And the acting in the rest of the play is really Good, too. Marlon Brando is the. Is the brother in law. Kim Hunter is the sister. They're all good. And I'm like, oh, wow, whatever.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah. And we have some footage of Jessica Tandy.

[Matt Koplik]

We have audio.

[Juan Ramirez]

No, there's some. For some. I don't know, some, like, Colgate Radio out or whatever. Like, she and her husband played Mitch.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, Cronin played Mitch. It was an omnibus thing. Was that.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yes, that they have footage, I think, just of a few scenes of the two of them together.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay.

[Juan Ramirez]

Interesting. She was very much. She's not at all wounded or trying anything with Mitch, which is interesting. She's just sort of very, like, I bet you weigh 175 pounds. You know, it's not.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Which I. I don't like. I think from that clip I saw, I didn't love it, but I trust, obviously see that, like, the performance mounted to, you know, a bigger thing.

[Matt Koplik]

It also was like, what, eight years after she did it on Broadway. Yeah. So things change. But you think about all the other women who've played the role. UTA Hagen, Tallulah Bankhead, who apparently the role was written for, like, Tallulah Bankhead doesn't give woundedness to me. She's like the epitome of resilience.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, God. What if it had gotten like a Bette Davis Stella. Joan Blanche.

[Matt Koplik]

Like a Joan Crawford Blanche.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You try putting Joan Crawford in a role where you tell her people are going to talk about how not, like, beautiful you are or how, like, not good you look, or the. The joke is that everyone's telling you how good you look because you need to hear it. She's like, I don't comprehend.

[Juan Ramirez]

Or wait. Oh, my God. Well, God. Fuck Mary, Queen of Scots. It should have been Saoirse and Margot Robbie in a Streetcar revival.

[Matt Koplik]

That would have been great. I like that a lot. Who's. Who's the.

[Juan Ramirez]

I don't know who's who, actually. I just sort of said that out loud.

[Matt Koplik]

No, Saoirse is a Stella for sure.

[Juan Ramirez]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

She's Stella for star. And Margaret and Margot would be a very nice Blanche. Again, like, exudes such healthiness. But she's.

[Juan Ramirez]

She'd be great.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Oh, she'd be a great Maggie. I think in 10 years, she'd be a really good Princess Kajime.

[Juan Ramirez]

That's. That said, I am sort of still reeling from. This is the only time I've ever walked out of an NT Live screening that I was so excited for, but Sienna Miller's Southern accent in Cat in Hot Tin roof was atrocious. Sounded like a cat on a hot tin roof, I'll tell you that.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, Sienna. Sienna for star. She always is trying, and we appreciate her for that. We'll do a wrap up of this in just a second, but first, we're gonna take one last break. Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[Juan Ramirez]

How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astan.

[Matt Koplik]

And we're back. So we've talked about Blanche a lot. We've talked about Stanley a bit. We've talked about the final scene. We've talked about Blanche's husband. We've talked about Mitch a little bit. Have we really given Stella much time as a character? Have we really spoken about her much?

[Juan Ramirez]

It's an interesting character, but I do think the reason that we kind of forget, aside from, you know, her iconically shouted name, is that it's. She's kind of. She's the most, like, plot device of the. Of the characters. Even Mitch is more of a.

[Matt Koplik]

He's more. He's more active in Blanche's downfall.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah. And there's sort of like the interesting tension between him being the nice guy, Blanche's possible salvation, and then being like, no, you are a whore. I'm not bringing you home to my mother. Which is like, damn it. Like, you know, just when you thought you had him, I think. Not to say that any of the, you know, anything in Williams's writing is as cut and dry as, like, oh, well, she's just this. But she is kind of just the reflection of Blanche's character. You know, she's fine living in this little apartment. She's fine getting into a few fights with her man, but she's, like, having sex and she has a fulfilling life. Like, I don't know. I mean, what do you want to discuss about her that we haven't.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't come to this podcast with once or a plan one. I literally. I do. I read, I watch, I look up some historical stuff, and then I sit down and I go, okay. What's interesting to me about Stella is actually, in terms of the Broadway history of Streetcar Named Desire, she is a more. I think she's a more Tony nominated part than Blanche is. She was the last.

[Juan Ramirez]

Which would mean that someone has been snubbed. A. Blanche has been snubbed.

[Matt Koplik]

Natasha Richardson was not nominated. Nicole, Ari Parker was not nominated. Actually, nobody from that Streetcar except for I think Paul Tazewell's costumes was nominated. But Amy Ryan was nominated opposite Natasha Richardson for Stella. Lange was not nominated. Nor. Nor was Amy Madigan. That was Alec Baldwin. But Blythe Danner did it in the 80s and she was nominated. And Frances McDormand was her Stella and she was nominated.

[Juan Ramirez]

You know, I think, I mean, do you think that's because a Blanche would fly closer to the sun?

[Matt Koplik]

Possible.

[Juan Ramirez]

It's easier to give a very sturdy Stella, whereas Jessica Lange, I mean from like again. And you know, people were saying at the time, including Arthur Miller in the central, like he's like the movie stack, the movie actress. Didn't. You couldn't hear her. I could see it being a case of they're trying something more polarizing. I don't know that if. I don't know that I'm ever leaving the theater being like, wow, that's Stella.

[Matt Koplik]

I think if you have a.

[Juan Ramirez]

Unless you sort of really direct the play to be told through her eyes in some way.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So if you have a good charismatic actress in the role, she can really pop off. I think she pops off more, as you said, if your Blanche is flying too close to the sun. So I think Amy Ryan popped off in 0405 because Richardson was so polarizing as Blanche. Stella is. She's not a plot device as a character. She mostly is there to placate Stanley, placate Blanche. She offers a lot of context for both characters. I think you see any good you see in Blanche or Stanley comes from Stella because we trust her a lot. We trust that these characters are worth spending time with. We then ultimately see that she's not as reliable because she will go with Stanley against better judgment and not give a wit about it. She's also a device for us to know how much time has passed by being pregnant. When we see the growth of her belly, we know that it's been okay. Last scene was probably about three months ago because Stella's stomach is twice the size. That is the. It's a very good way for Williams to let us know. Like this doesn't take place over two weeks. This is about three to four months. But I don't know. I think, I mean if Carousel has ties to Streetcar, Stella is Julie Jordan, but she is a more so than Blanche's because she is the one married to the. The Billy Bigelow Persona. The difference is with Billy and Julie, it's a short period of time. They only have like a three month marriage and it's not they are not the couple that fights in public and, and reconciles in public. Public. They all of their. They are the couple that is like slowly withering. And Julie's the only adult there, so she's the only one out in public in Streetcar. They are that toxic couple. You know that when you have like a group gathering at a bar, they get into a fight about something and like they're. And it's because their love is the most passionate love and no one can understand it. And they go home and they have makeup sex and like the next day everything is fine, but they'll still complain. And I think because we view Stella as level headed, we trust that their relationship is sturdy enough for all of this. Yeah. I don't know. She's a conundrum to me in a way that she feels like the most real person on that stage.

[Juan Ramirez]

I think she's sort of the conundrum of the play. You know, we're all like. Or Williams maybe is trying to figure out at least Blanche's like, what is, how could you be living like this? You know, that's the question sort of thing of the play. Like, without judgment. Without judgment. Like, well, how, how is, how are these two sisters? How is one of them living this way? What went differently in her life to make her so much better adjusted.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And then, well, and then Stanley's like, how can you constantly defend her when she does this or when she's clearly lying about this? And I'm telling you all these things about your sister, you need to know. And, but also like how Blanche and Stanley talk to her about each other has nothing to do with Stella. It's their own notions. Because like Blanche's very first scene, she makes Stella cry and Stanley makes Stella cry when he's talking about Blanche. And like they care for her, obviously, but everything they say to her about the other person is more about the them.

[Juan Ramirez]

She's more of an everyday person. And like there's like these two giants near her who are sort of. And that's why I think I love that scene with Blanche sort of leveling with Stanley and being like, I think my sister's more innocent than she lets on. But like, I'll talk to you straight. Yeah, I think it's interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

And, and you watch how Stanley get. Feels affected by Blanche, not by, by Blanche staying with him as long as she does. It affects him not because he can't, not only because he can't stand her, but he feels like she's negatively influencing Stella, that now that Blanche Is there? Stella's old roots are starting to show and she's being uppity and she's being classist and, and, and rude and degrading towards him. Which may not be true. May be true. We don't see a lot of it. The only time we ever really see is at Blanche's birthday dinner. Stanley's eating with his hands and Stella calls him out on it and he's like, you are being so classist right now. Like, no, you're being a pitch pig.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So. But she, but still she is okay with it. Everything he does, she just kind of comes back to it. She will say if she doesn't like something but still put up with it. And is she a symbol for resilience or she is symbol for how like even the kindest, most level headed people will stick with the toxic situation because they have determined that's what they want. She says, like, I'm not in a situation I want to be out of.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And even when there are all these other facts pointing her way, she's like, yeah, I'm sticking around. What does that say about us as a society if our, if even our most level headed people can just do that without batting an eye?

[Juan Ramirez]

Well, maybe we need the Stella prequel miniseries.

[Matt Koplik]

I. You know what? If ever there was a streetcar musical for realsies, not just on the Simpsons. Yeah. Which you better believe is going to be the intro for this episode.

[Juan Ramirez]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

You can always depend on the kindness of strangers. That opening number would be Stella leaving.

[Juan Ramirez]

Belle Reeve, which apparently like the city of New Orleans sued Fox or whatever. Like they were pissed.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I don't think they sued them, but yeah, they filed a complaint because the opening number is like New Orleans dirty crusty. Yeah. And I was reading up about that and they're like, well, there was supposed to be a shot where two people from the south, like got up and left in protest with like Southern draws. Like how insensitive. Ugly. Yeah. They're also like, guys, it's the Simpsons. Why are you taking it like that's what we think. It's a dumbass musical. Yeah. There are some musical.

[Juan Ramirez]

Simpsons had great musicals and music numbers.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

But also so when they're like extremely pompous. Lincoln one where after he dies, his bed floats above and it's from Sea YouTube shot. Like it's so perfect.

[Matt Koplik]

Simpsons nails the concept of bad writers of musicals doing musicals. Like and, and I.

[Juan Ramirez]

But having it slay because Diana to me felt like a really good Simpsons musical.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. It's the Episode where Lisa's kind of doing a vita. Yeah, it's that all the time. And I love Diana. I. I will watch it every day if I had the chance. But there's.

[Juan Ramirez]

What you do. It's on Netflix.

[Matt Koplik]

It's on Netflix. Well, I can. I just. I just don't. But there are some musicals where I'm like, this is like, the kind of musical that people who watch the Simpsons genuinely think musicals are. And it makes me mad because I'm like, simpsons is allowed to do that, right? Because they do a good job.

[Juan Ramirez]

They put spring and Springfield.

[Matt Koplik]

They put the spring in Springfield. Springfield. Springfield, New York. New York.

[Juan Ramirez]

But, yeah, I don't think the garbage man can.

[Matt Koplik]

Do you feel that way sometimes when you see new musicals where you're like, you're doing what the Simpsons is making fun of?

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, what did I think about that recently? Think that of recently. Oh, what did I think? Well, I sort of think that about Merrily.

[Matt Koplik]

Right? You've been. You have been recorded on TV as saying that Merrily is the annoying Sondheim's fan's favorite musical.

[Juan Ramirez]

Was that the Patrick show we were on together?

[Matt Koplik]

Sure was. And you. And you can see me laugh. Not because I disagree, because I think they cut afterwards. I go, oh, are we being honest today? Because I thought we were all, like, being corpse. Be like, oh, let's just be. Let's be polite and say, like, little sound bites. And then you said that.

[Juan Ramirez]

I was like, oh.

[Matt Koplik]

Or we like to talk for real.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah. I don't know. 1 taught me theater etiquette growing up.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's fine.

[Juan Ramirez]

Miami.

[Matt Koplik]

But it's fine. It's fine. We both got our hate from that video.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, God, what did I see recently that I'm like, this is exactly what people who hate musicals think it is. And I can't blame them if they think that about this. Maybe it's a movie. I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

Was it Gatsby? Great Gatsby?

[Juan Ramirez]

No, I didn't think that. Mostly I was just offended being made to be. To sit through that.

[Matt Koplik]

But yeah. Somebody calls it McDonald's Gatsby. I'm like, that's exactly correct.

[Juan Ramirez]

No. Oh, my God. It's like a 90s kids meal where the toy is the current Broadway production of the Great gatsby.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. Look at Jordan Baker. She's so thin and pretty. Not clearly a lesbian at all.

[Juan Ramirez]

Right. That's a. That's a perfect. Perfect. Oh, my God. Yeah. Well, we'll see what happens with the Florence Welsh Gatsby.

[Matt Koplik]

But, well, Rebecca's back on it in London. They did. They did. Honestly then, Pika. I kind of felt that way. I was like, oh, this is what people who hate musicals think musicals are.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, yeah, I see that. Oh, God. Let me. Listeners, give me a second while I looked at the last Broadway season of Time.

[Matt Koplik]

They don't have time.

[Juan Ramirez]

There are. I'm sure there are. I'm sure there are musicals. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

If you think of any, text me and I'll tell people on the Discord. Another reason to join the Discord, please.

[Juan Ramirez]

I will not. I do not need to be subpoenaed for having that app on my phone.

[Matt Koplik]

No, no, no, no. Although people said they were excited to have you back on, so that's nice.

[Juan Ramirez]

I'm. Won't be reading into that.

[Matt Koplik]

Won't be reading it.

[Juan Ramirez]

I never take. I. I find that hard to believe.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I think it's because they enjoyed our sexual tension from the last episode, so. So they'll be disappointed to find that there's none to this episode.

[Juan Ramirez]

Try as I might with my tits out on this damn podcast.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, and I have my tits out too. I think it's just. We're no longer fresh, young things to each other anymore. I'm no longer new to you, Juan, and therefore I am not someone to be interrogated.

[Juan Ramirez]

Dusty old mycoplick.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. That is. I. Yeah, I thought for a moment this was gonna be sexual. And like, you came in hot with loads taken, William. So I was like, oh, God. It's like, okay, here we go. Are we gonna talk. Talk about all of the fists that have been lost in Fire Island?

[Juan Ramirez]

Because when I. No, because when I watch any Williams, I enter a two month period of being like, you know, you treat me like a lady. So I'm not doing any sort of, you know, I'm not stepping out of. I have my wits about me. But you don't think I do.

[Matt Koplik]

But you know a lot about Williams. Is there anything in particular you want you think listeners should know about him as a person or playwright?

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, my God. Just like, dive in. They're so much fun. I've never had, like, a truly. Aside from that fucking Tofana production of Orpheus Descending. I've never had a completely bad time. It's always. There's always like something so fun and juicy. It's very juicy. It's very sweaty. Yeah, it's always fun to discover that one of the masters is like this huge faggot who's doing, like, you know, the gayest things. Imaginable yeah, Drinking himself into oblivion. Yeah, please. Like there's all sorts of like stories of like all the little like hustlers he hired, like back in his home and like just fun, sexy, like he was.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, also he, when he got successful, he would just sort of pack up and move to a new spot as much as he could because he was like, oh, it's good for the soul, good for the writing song.

[Juan Ramirez]

I'll say this, I'm very proud that when I reviewed this, the off road production of Cat and Haunton Roof, I was able to briefly discuss the concept of trade and how much Tennessee Williams loved it. So I'm glad I got. If you look up Tennessee Williams trademark. Sure. The first thing that comes up is my Times review of this production.

[Matt Koplik]

First thing I'm doing when we log off. One. One hand on my phone, one hand somewhere else. Yeah. He was, he was a fun time until he wasn't anymore because he had a lot of hardships in his life and a lot of sadness and a.

[Juan Ramirez]

Lot of shitty plays. I'm sure he has a long. I just. Oh my God. I read the first page of the Roman Spring of Misson and I was like, honey, what is this? But I will finish it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. At some point. But I know he put a lot of his sister into his plays because she meant a lot to him. And she was diagnosed, I think with bipolar disorder, but there was no real treatment for it. And so she got a lobotomy and he made a percentage of his plays, of his royalties go to her care. But yeah, yeah, but like that just took a major toll on him and he felt a lot of guilt about that. And his mother obviously is the inspiration for Amanda Wingfield. But you know, Laura in Glass Menagerie is inspired by her. There's a lot of her in Blanche. I think there's a lot of her in. I can never actually say the last name of the princess in Sweet Bird of Youth because it's like something crazy.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like Cosmopolis.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, Megalopolis. The Francis for Coble movie.

[Matt Koplik]

For sure, for sure, for sure. Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

I wonder if Aubrey Plaza could play Blanche.

[Matt Koplik]

No, she can't. She could play Stanley, though.

[Juan Ramirez]

I would love that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Aubrey Plaza in a Tennessee Williams play.

[Juan Ramirez]

Well, because.

[Matt Koplik]

So as we talk about legacy and we'll wrap it up with that, the legacy of this play is ultimately the legacy of Williams. Right.

[Juan Ramirez]

Which I, I would venture to say is imperiled by the fact that neither of us could come up with a satisfying cast for A Streetcar revival.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, it just. It's diminishing returns over the years of. We are no longer cultivating personalities.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Or charisma. We are cultivating working actors, which there's nothing wrong with. But like every now and then someone special breaks through in theater. It happens more in film and tv. TV lately, actually. Jeremy Allen White. I would see him play Stanley. Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

It's a bit obvious, isn't it?

[Matt Koplik]

Sometimes the obvious. Sometimes the obvious choice is the good one.

[Juan Ramirez]

I just personally can't stand him. But I'm.

[Matt Koplik]

What I think right now it's because the bear has soured on me. The third season was absolute garbage. But I do think he's good and I would like to see him in something that's not the Bear. And I would like to see him in A Streetcar with like maybe a Florence Pugh as Stella who can go head to head to him. Head to head. Head to head with him. And I don't know, like someone like.

[Juan Ramirez]

The most to me, like, who has broken out in theater in the past few years that I'm like, oh, my God. Yeah, it's Kara Young. I don't know that I actually. She might be a really good. Like Stella, maybe.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe if she did it in the next year or two. Yes. But I think she's about to age out of it.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

I think so. I mean, she's small, so you can always do whatever. But also, I don't know. I don't know. She's very fiery, so I feel like that would make a fun Stella. But I'm also like trying to think of a director I would trust with it because George C. Wolfe is about to retire and I would love to see his. I don't think he's ever done a Williams and that's a shame.

[Juan Ramirez]

That's crazy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Because something about. About George C. Wolf that I always loved was you could. You always got the sense of temperature from his shows. Like you understood the heat of the place you were in. It's what I loved about his Carolina Change. It was first of all a very lonely production. Everyone looked like an island on that stage. Everyone was just so alone in that world. But you got Louisiana heat and swamp sweat from it, which was something that was missing for me in the British revival. But with. Yeah, I think with Williams and this plays legacy. Yeah. It's the legacy of the acting of the method acting that ultimately has now become a joke because people have taken it to the extreme and people with less talent than Brando or Kim Hunter come on and do garbage. Work with it. And garbage actions in the name of method. Unfortunately, because of Marlon Brando, we have Jared Leto sending Margot Robbie a dead rat and used condoms and saying, like, that's what the joker would do. Well, yeah. And. And. And with Streetcar, we have plays like Danny and the Deep Blue Sea, which are, I feel like, written for acting class.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Play.

[Matt Koplik]

Like plays that are meant to be acted, but that doesn't mean they're good, you know?

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I don't think Danny the Deep Lucy is a bad play, but it is. It's an acting exercise 1000%. Like, it's. It's. It's there to.

[Juan Ramirez]

You have this objective. You have this one go, you know?

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And. And people are always trying to capture that. That energy that Streetcar has. Like, Williams was always kind of chasing that dragon afterwards. And I think he would find different versions of success if not necessarily capture that exact magic of Streetcar. Yeah. And. And. And I don't know what I'm trying to think of. Last time, like, a Broadway. A new Broadway play had that kind of lust in it.

[Juan Ramirez]

New one. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's been a minute. I mean, definitely not a. No musical for sure. Not for a very long time.

[Juan Ramirez]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

I think the last time a Broadway musical wasn't afraid of fucking was the Lachiusa Wild Party. But that wasn't like, hey, isn't sex hot? It was like, hey, can't sex ruin you?

[Juan Ramirez]

Right? Sure, sure, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Juan Ramirez]

Well.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I think that's.

[Juan Ramirez]

I think bring sex back to Broadway.

[Matt Koplik]

I think that's our calling.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I should probably put more sex on my play. It's a lot of, like, about to have sex.

[Juan Ramirez]

That could be hot.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, no, it's.

[Juan Ramirez]

It's arguably the hottest part about the whole tango.

[Matt Koplik]

I agreed. I. I thought it was hot, but I also haven't seen it staged yet. We've only done readings. And I'm like, is anyone else getting a semi? Just me. Okay, okay, okay.

[Juan Ramirez]

And then everyone's like, we can't do this play. This is creepy. We'll have to leave.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, exactly. Everyone's like, we don't. We can't indulge hard.

[Juan Ramirez]

We have to leave.

[Matt Koplik]

The playwright had a semi. Okay, let's not. Let's not jump to conclusions here. It went away. It went away. No, that was me just being. Going. I think I might be brilliant. I think this might be perfect. And then rubbing the nipple. Last comments on Streetcar.

[Juan Ramirez]

Go see the movie. Go see the Lang. Go see the. It's on YouTube, y'. All. Like, no one's. Like, no one's giving a shit about at this point about any of these works. Go see it on YouTube and go download off of YouTube because, you know, as soon as it becomes unprofitable for streamers to have old movies on there, they're gonna take them out. So they are download onto a DVD and keep a DVD player.

[Matt Koplik]

Question for you then. This is something that I remember being on the Discord and maybe misremembering it.

[Juan Ramirez]

Or is there reader questions for me?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I. I asked people to submit stuff for each episode, but somebody was asking because they. They love Glass Menagerie and they can't get into Streetcar, and they were wondering.

[Juan Ramirez]

Why that was so crazy. Is it a straight person?

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know. I didn't ask.

[Juan Ramirez]

That's so interesting. I mean. Sorry, sorry.

[Matt Koplik]

Why? Why? So why would you think that me.

[Juan Ramirez]

Because Glastony is more sort of approximating that thing of. Williams is an American master. And that's sort of like his straightest play, where it's sort of like. I don't know. I've only seen the Sally Field version, which I actually enjoyed. I saw Amy Adams. Oh, my God, what a production. I forgot to bring that up during this episode.

[Matt Koplik]

I think that was also Rob Ashford in.

[Juan Ramirez]

In London.

[Matt Koplik]

I know he did. I know he did the Streetcar with Rachel Weiss at the Donmar that never came here.

[Juan Ramirez]

I. Girl, I don't know. Amy Adams was so completely miscast. Oh, my God, what a horrible production. I've never. Yeah, I think I've just yet to see the Glass Menagerie. That really taps me into that play.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry, it was Jeremy Heron. Apologies to Rob Ashford. Continue.

[Juan Ramirez]

I've yet to see the Glass Menagerie that, like, really locks me in. Yeah, to me, that's. It's kind of giving early play before we, like, really flesh out these themes. I'm glad it exists. I always, like. I enjoy the play. I think it's smart, interesting. I mean, if you like Glass Menagerie, but you can't get in a Streetcar, then willingness might not be for you.

[Matt Koplik]

I think that's fair. I think Streetcar is really.

[Juan Ramirez]

It's like his most sober play.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Streetcar is more of what he starts to do afterwards because he leans. He basically. Once Streetcar and the Loins are on stage, he's like, it's here, right?

[Juan Ramirez]

Sex, it's bourbon.

[Matt Koplik]

It's delusion and sweat all the time. Glassman Ashley is like his sweetest play. It's sad. It's a sad play. But it's very sweet.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah. And it's, you know, my mom.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Did you see the Cherry Jones, Celia, Keenan Bolger one. That was a very good revival. And I wonder if this person had seen that production, but no production of Streetcar. So maybe that's why. But I don't. I also don't know their history. That production A looked gorgeous. It was very simplistic, but like leaned into it being a memory play of. There's like. It's. Everything's always mirrored and into the abyss and ceiling. Keenan Boltra came out of the couch. It was a whole thing.

[Juan Ramirez]

But.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I wonder if it's just that it's more palatable for them for that sweetness and less raw.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Less raw. Dogging in Glass Menagerie.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, and also say everyone go watch Alma Dovara's All About My Mother, which sort of prominently features Streetcar.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's like the production of it's happening in.

[Juan Ramirez]

So it's basically Cassavetes opening night, but the lead actress in the universe of the movie is in a production of A Streetcar.

[Matt Koplik]

Got it.

[Juan Ramirez]

When a fan gets hit by a car, that fabulous melodrama.

[Matt Koplik]

That sounds amazing.

[Juan Ramirez]

I should do it straight.

[Matt Koplik]

I was about to say Williams, that sounds like a Natalie Walker vision board. Like Natalie.

[Juan Ramirez]

If you gave Natalie the keys to like the Taschen, you know, sort of like bookstores.

[Matt Koplik]

Or if you're like, Natalie, pitch a movie. She's like, okay, it's opening night, but they're doing a production of Streetcar and Almo d' ovar is gonna make it. They'd be like, go to Spain to make that if you want.

[Juan Ramirez]

Is Natalie a Stella or a Lench?

[Matt Koplik]

Natalie could be anyone.

[Juan Ramirez]

I think she's an obvious. Blanche, I would like to see. See her.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. That's the thing is I think. I think her instincts lead towards Blanche. She could absolutely do Stella. And she's. She's in the phase of her career right now where this is Stella is what she'll be cast as. So I'm like, girl, do it.

[Juan Ramirez]

I mean, talk about a possible breakthrough.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I think. And that's actually an example of casting an actress with charisma and. And cool instincts in that kind of role and seeing how it pops. Because I think Natalie's often cast as the weirdo. And if you cast a weirdo in a relatively level headed role, it's like, well, what do we find from that role now? Yeah, I think she could find some really cool stuff. Yeah. I think we start a repertory company and it's just like every three months Natalie does a different Williams play.

[Juan Ramirez]

Please.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And we make it into a musical.

[Juan Ramirez]

It's smash.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. Yeah. Oh, fucking sweet bird of youth. So many number. Is princess singing let me be your star. Are you kidding me?

[Juan Ramirez]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

It fits so well. It's what she wants. Okay, Juan, this has been delightful as always. Where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[Juan Ramirez]

Very strong branding at its number, Juan. Its N U M B E R J U A N Just like my name.

[Matt Koplik]

I'll say it's a fun follow everybody.

[Juan Ramirez]

If you follow.

[Matt Koplik]

If you want to follow me, I am on Instagram only at Matt Karl Coplick. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, you can give us a nice 5 star rating or review. You can join the Discord Channel if you want to submit questions or topics for the next recording. You'll also find out when we're recording next. Stay tuned for any upcoming reviews I might be doing. I'm not entirely sure when this is coming up, but I. It might be. I think it's post. It's definitely going to be post. Our town and sunset reviews might be around the time left on 10th review happens TBD. I'm sure that's gonna be very pumped. If this is coming out before my plays film presentation, you can still donate then to our fundraiser for it. We have currently raised almost $1,800 for our budget on that, which is great. We are racking up them dineros and that's all I got to say about that. Juan, what diva should I put in post today for your episode? Close this out with.

[Juan Ramirez]

The monorail song from the Simpsons.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure, sure. Conan o', Brien, baby. We love to honor the babe.

[Juan Ramirez]

Oh, wow. Right?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. He wrote that episode. Okay.

[Juan Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Do you ever stop to think sometimes. Why do I know that?

[Juan Ramirez]

It's funny that I don't know that. Because I'm like a giant. Simpsons.

[Matt Koplik]

No, not just have like anything.

[Juan Ramirez]

Like, yeah, I'm like, why did I like fail algebra twice? But I know this.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, exactly. Like why. Why is was math so hard? But I know that this thing about the Simpsons. Stupid. Okay, so I will see you guys next week. This has been a blast. And take it away, Simpsons. Were you sent here by the no good sir? I'm on the level.

[Juan Ramirez]

The ring came off my pudding can.

[Matt Koplik]

Take my pen knife, my good man. I swear it's Springfield's only choice. Throw up your hands and raise your voice. What's it called? Once again.

[Juan Ramirez]

But Main street and broker. Sorry, Mom.

[Matt Koplik]

The mob is spoken mono.

[Juan Ramirez]

Don't.