AIN'T MISBEHAVIN' w/ André Jordan

Summary

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Broadway Breakdown Podcast: "AIN'T MISBEHAVIN'" with André Jordan

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: André Jordan
Date: February 16, 2023

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Overview: The Joy and Legacy of "Ain't Misbehavin'"

In this high-energy episode, Matt Koplik and guest André Jordan dive deep into the legacy of the groundbreaking musical revue Ain't Misbehavin'. The show, which celebrates the music of Fats Waller, is explored from historical, personal, and artistic angles—with plenty of stories, laughter, and sharp observations. André shares his personal experience performing in the show, while Matt connects the musical's impact to Broadway history and culture.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Opening Banter: The Diana Connection, Tee Shirts, and Broadway Fandom

• Matt opens with humorous, personalized banter about Diana The Musical and fan-designed merch.
• Both hosts joke about missed final performances, reacting to Broadway news, and their shared history with other podcasts ([00:44]–[03:13]).

"You want me to do that instead? And they were like, oh, yeah, yeah, do that instead. Yeah, the Ken Page track. It's fun." — André Jordan [05:37]

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Personal Histories with Ain’t Misbehavin’

• André describes performing the show in 2014 at the Phoenix Theater and the joy of sharing the stage in such an ensemble piece ([03:27]–[04:07]).
• Matt shares that the show is a family favorite; his father saw multiple productions and passed the love on to him.
• The mutual consensus: The show deserves a high-profile revival.

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The Show's Origins and Manhattan Theater Club

• Matt provides historical background:
  • Ain't Misbehavin' was Manhattan Theater Club’s first transfer to Broadway in 1978.
  • Initial hesitance within leadership due to concerns about commerciality versus artistic mission.
  • Richard Maltby Jr.'s role as creator/director and anecdotes about casting the five original stars: Nell Carter, Ken Page, André De Shields, Charlayne Woodard, Armelia McQueen.
  • Murray Horwitz’s role as the originator and co-creator of the show ([07:12]–[12:04]).
• Casting was collaborative; it was built on the strengths and real personalities of the cast members.

“He said, I wanted an odd number of people so there could always be mixing and matching of romantic partners. ... And it's totally right. And it's something that kind of always has been embedded into the DNA of the show.” — Matt Koplik [13:40]

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Building the Revue: Development and Early Success

• The show was assembled organically with no traditional script, built during rehearsals.
• Maltby structured rehearsals to buy himself time (e.g., the complex arrangement of "Black and Blue") while coming up with Act 2.
• André tells an anecdote about randomly meeting Murray Horwitz, co-creator, at a bar ([09:05]).

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Star Power and Replacements

• Original cast backgrounds and why Irene Cara did not transfer to Broadway with the production.
• Notable names who have stepped in over the years: Debbie Allen, Lillias White, The Pointer Sisters, Adrian Lennox.
• Discussion of Charlayne Woodard’s essential contributions to the original Broadway cast.

“She’s the full complete package. ... If I were to do Ain't Misbehavin’, I would want the Charlayne Woodard track.” — Matt Koplik [15:58]

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Collaboration, Authenticity, and Black Artistry

• Emphasis on the importance of letting Black artists tell Black stories.
• The creative process was about drawing out the personalities, experiences, and talents of the original cast members rather than imposing strict blocking or a rigid script ([20:25]).

“When it comes to creating this, we're going to trust that you know ... how this is going to flow, how it's going to work.” — André Jordan [20:25]

• They reference The Color Purple revival and John Doyle’s similar approach of deference and collaboration.

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Broadway Transfer, Tony Triumphs, and Community Hype

• Timeline: From Off-Broadway opening (Jan–Feb) to Broadway (May) to Tony Awards (late spring).
• The show’s rapid ascent generated massive buzz; Matt discusses how New York's embrace is essential for broader hit status ([22:49]–[29:57]).
• Tony ceremony moments: The community fully backed Ain’t Misbehavin’—audible excitement in audience reactions.

“...when Richard Maltby Jr. won director, the whole theater was like fucking on fire. And then when Ain't Misbehavin' won, everyone was like, yes.” — Matt Koplik [25:40]

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Impact, Legacy, and the "Lightning in a Bottle"

• The revue set a new standard, influencing the trend of jukebox and bio-musicals but remaining largely unmatched.
• The importance of fresh energy and recognizing why certain revivals do or do not work over time.
• Comparison to other Broadway sensations: universal acclaim, community buy-in, and rare “lightning in a bottle” phenoms ([30:08]–[33:18]).

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The Review and Jukebox Musical Wave

• Post-Ain’t Misbehavin’, Broadway saw many attempts to replicate its formula with little comparable success until much later (Mamma Mia!, Jersey Boys).
• The episode discusses what makes the revue format succeed: authentic artistry vs. formulaic biography structure.

“Ain't Misbehavin’ ... celebrates the excellence of that artistry just by, like, sheer joy of what an artist can do.” — Matt Koplik [37:33]

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The Show’s Structure and Thematic Arcs

• Act 1: Vibrant, clubby downtown Harlem—joy and the energy of living.
• Act 2: The world of black success, the privileges, and the social realities, including subtle engagement with racism and the costs of success.
• References to favorite numbers, the intricacies of “Handful of Keys,” “Mean to Me,” “Your Feet’s Too Big,” and choreography moments.

“There are always opportunities ... to inform more about the relationships that are on stage.” — André Jordan [57:46]

• André highlights the performer’s experience: competition, celebration, and the thrill of outdoing each other vocally and performatively ([56:15]–[58:06]).

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The Interplay of Comedy, Sexuality, and Emotion

• How the show weaves innuendo, cheeky humor, bawdy moments, and deeper emotions.
• Charlayne Woodard’s pivotal role as the “sex toy with limbs” character who evolves and self-actualizes in Act 2.
• The framing of dramatic and tender moments like “Keeping Out of Mischief Now” and “Black and Blue”—earnest rather than pandering ([46:09]–[47:55]).

“It's. She's learned now officially ... that no one respects the bimbo and no one takes seriously the mistress. So she's got to kind of get her act together...” — Matt Koplik [46:58]

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Casting, Revivals, and Future Possibilities

• Discussion about the need for a new Broadway production and dream casting ideas (Tiffany Mann, Amber Iman, Q Darrington, Antoine Smith, Brianna Marie Parham, etc.).
• The unique requirements for a successful cast: exceptional vocal and dance abilities, charisma, organic comedy, and authenticity ([91:10]–[93:00]).

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American Identity, Black Excellence, and the Audience

• Fats Waller’s navigation of white and Black audiences: never losing touch with authenticity even when “bottling it up” for mainstream acceptance.
• How Ain’t Misbehavin’ lets a Black narrative celebrate itself while warmly allowing the audience in—never angry, but undeniably confident ([77:30]–[78:46]).
• Candid reflections on white audience demographics and their engagement with the material in historical and modern contexts.

“It's not anger, because it feels like the artist never thought that the music was lost, that the art was lost. It's like, no, we've always had it. Yes, we've always had it. ...so we're not going to be angry about it because, like, what's there to be angry about?” — Matt Koplik [78:47]

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Fun, Lucid Tangents and Memorable Moments

• Cheesecake Face Theory: On stars who look like they've had good cheesecake ([49:08]).
• Game Segment: "Six Degrees of Sally Murphy" and "Who Lives, Who Dies, Janine Tesori" – tracing connections between Ain't Misbehavin’, notable Broadway personalities, and other musicals ([108:40]–[113:15]).
• Matt’s “Daddy” Follies anecdote and Broadway family lore ([103:16]–[104:48]).

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Notable Quotes & Time Stamps

• “That shit’s baller. ...Can I just do Yacht Boat? Like, that shit’s baller.” — Matt Koplik [16:18]
• “One never knows, do one?” — Ongoing show reference [42:53]
• “I came out of this on top, no matter what. ...I have pegged you, sir. I have pegged you hard.” — Matt Koplik [85:28]
• “So Andre, you do not say Amber Iman to me and then just walk away...” — Matt Koplik [91:43]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

[00:44] – Introduction, Broadway banter
[03:27] – André's history with Ain’t Misbehavin’
[07:12] – Origins of the show, creative team, Manhattan Theater Club
[13:40] – The show’s organic rehearsal & collaborative casting
[22:49] – Broadway transfer, Tony ceremony, rapid-fire success
[37:33] – Show as a celebration of Black artistry
[56:15] – Performers’ experiences, competition, and ensemble magic
[77:30] – The show’s confidence, joy vs. anger in reclaiming music
[91:10] – Dream cast for a revival, contemporary Black theater talent
[108:40] – "Six Degrees" Broadway games

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Conclusion: Why You Should Watch "Ain't Misbehavin'"

• An electrifying, joyful celebration of Black music and Broadway artistry.
• A gold-standard revue that is both entertaining and moving, requiring and rewarding top-level talent.
• Easily accessible: Full televised version is available on YouTube.
• Not just history—still relevant, still exciting, and still a showcase of American musical theater at its collaborative, communal best.

“Once you start, you’re going to be so happy you did. ...It's gonna hook you right on in.” — André Jordan [102:56]

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The episode closes with well-earned praise for Nell Carter, a discussion of the show’s heart, and excitement for future revivals—ending, as ever, in pure Broadway style.

Transcript

[Andre Jordan]

No one to talk with all by myself no one to walk with But I'm happy on the elevation in the shell famous baby I'm saving my love for you and you and you oh, and you I know for certain the one I love I threw but flirting at you then I'm thinking of a misbehaving I'm saving my love for you oh. Hi, daddy.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello all theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called the big Move, and it is covering shows that were so successful off Broadway, they just had to transfer to the great white way and get some luck over there. I am your host, Matt Ko, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is a new friend to the pod. You might have seen him in Diana the musical. You might have heard us together on Life's but a song talking about Diana the Musical. I'm in fact wearing a Diana the musical T shirt. Not official merch. This was designed by listener of the pod, drawn by Brian. I will this. This. This T shirt will be posted online at some point. Please welcome Andre Jordan.

[Andre Jordan]

Hello. Oh, my gosh. I did not. I didn't even clock that you were wearing it.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I was.

[Andre Jordan]

Oh.

[Matt Koplik]

I made it a point to reveal it to you IRL as we recorded. Get a natural reaction.

[Andre Jordan]

That was very well done. I've seen the shirt before because someone else had posted it. I think maybe Robbie Roselle had posted it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep, yep.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah, like, where'd you get that? Then he sent me the link to the. To the artist page. I think it's great. And on the back it says something too, right?

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. So Brian, who designed it, he's a listener of the podcast and he was showing me the initial design for this. And originally on the back it was going to say, grab my bag, grab my hat, grab my feeble little husband. And I said, no, no, no. It should say, ah, actually, it's Your.

[Andre Jordan]

Royal Highness, 1000% that bitch.

[Matt Koplik]

Because I said, brian, clearly you did not see the show live. So you don't know what line in that song got the gays to scream.

[Andre Jordan]

Everyone lose their minds.

[Matt Koplik]

Everything.

[Andre Jordan]

Scream How?

[Matt Koplik]

I saw it. And we discussed this. I did see it twice. I saw it towards the end of previews and then I saw it. The second to last performance couldn't go to the final show because I stupidly had tickets to the goddamn Lehman trilogy.

[Andre Jordan]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And y' all announced a week before. So I had no time to switch things up.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I'll never forget where I was when I got the news, Andre. I was sitting, waiting to watch west side story on IMAX. And right before the movie began, I got 30,000 text messages. I thought. I thought a family member died.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It was everyone in my life being like, what are your plans next Sunday?

[Andre Jordan]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

Because everyone knows how much I love that show anyhow. But we're not talking about Diana.

[Andre Jordan]

Not this time. That's a different. You can see that episode over at. You know.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. You'll see the Diana musical episode on either Life's About a Song or on my podcast from this past August for the Underestimated series. But, Andre, what musical are we talking about today?

[Andre Jordan]

Oh, we're talking about. Ain't misbehaving.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm saving my love for you.

[Andre Jordan]

I love the show.

[Matt Koplik]

What?

[Andre Jordan]

I did this show. Oh, sorry.

[Matt Koplik]

What is your history with the show?

[Andre Jordan]

Oh, yes. So I did this show at the Phoenix Theater in 2013. 13 or 14. Let's say 14. I want to say it was 14. And I really enjoyed it. I loved it. It's actually, like. It's probably one of my favorite shows that I've done. I've auditioned for it a few other times after that, trying to get back in and do another production of it. But it's just one of those shows that when it's. When it's such an ensemble cast like this, everyone gets a great chance to shine and show.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Andre Jordan]

All of what they can do. So to get that opportunity is like, yeah, take it. If you can find a show that.

[Matt Koplik]

Were you familiar with the show before you did it or sort of like, kind of in passing.

[Andre Jordan]

It's kind of in passing. I hadn't really. I mean, I knew. Mean to me because of Nell Carter's performance on the Leading Ladies of Broadway, the PBS recording of that concert, and when I was at amda, that song was given to a lot of girls to say, so I knew Mean to Me. And that was pretty much it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I am familiar with the show. Listeners of the POD will know this Amus Behaven is one of my dad's favorite musicals. He saw the original on Broadway, I want to say, three times. And then he saw it on tour and he saw it in Chicago, and then they did. I guess you could call it a revival. They did a revival reproduction of it at The Ahmanson in LA, or Amelia McQueen did it again. And I know Roz Ryan was in It. I don't remember the rest of the cast, but they did it at the Amazon. And I went to visit my dad in la and he's like, so we're going to, like, doesn't miss an opportunity to see this show. So I've been familiar with the show since, like, middle school, I want to say, but only saw it live once. Ready for it again, I think. I think it's time. I think we deserve it. I think we've earned the right to see a quality production of Animals. Behave Onward. Way again. Get Andre back to Broadway.

[Andre Jordan]

I agree.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Andre Jordan]

Andre for an Andre.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, yeah, I would say. I assume you played the other Andre track.

[Andre Jordan]

I. I did. I was Andre, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You were not Charlayne Woodard?

[Andre Jordan]

I was not Charlay. I was not Charlene. And I actually just went in for a production of this recently, and when I first got the audition, they were like, can you read for Ken? And I was like, sure, but I've done Andre. You want me to do that instead? And they were like, oh, yeah, yeah, do that instead. Yeah, the Ken Page track. It's fun.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's a fun one. Your feet's too big. You were sort of like John Krasinski when he went in for the office. Like, so you're gonna come in for Dwight and he's like, I think you should have me come in for Jim.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah. Sometimes they need a little help.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, sometimes they do. I mean, I love it when directors, casting directors try to think outside the box. But it's also like when. When. When gold is right there, you're gonna just leave that on the table. Come on.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah. Yeah. If any broke.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. To. To quote the wonderful Shea, why is everyone acting brand new? Absolutely everyone. Absolutely everybody. So with this music. So this is an interesting musical to talk about, and we've done a couple of shows now on this podcast where there's been a similar trajectory for all of them, where it's like they open off Broadway and the buzz is such that it's like, well, no, Broadway is imminent. Like, it's gotta happen.

[Andre Jordan]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

And I mean, we see this now with a lot of transfers. Sometimes, like, it takes a while. Like, Kimberly Akimbo is currently on Broadway. That was like a year later.

[Andre Jordan]

But people sort of decide, like, you know, once it's out and it's generally really well received, it's like, oh, this has to go. It's like. And decides that they want it there.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And this was an interesting case because. Do you know anything about sort of like, the origins of the show. Like how a little bit.

[Andre Jordan]

I know it was played at a club on 73rd Street, I want to say.

[Matt Koplik]

So this is. I believe this is. This is our second Manhattan Theater Club show, not our last. I think we've got a third one coming up. But Manhattan Theater Club has a history of shows just doing real well in their off Broadway spaces. And this was their first transfer to Broadway. And actually, fun fact, everybody. My grandfather, Richard Tickton, was the chairman of the board of Manhattan Theater Club at the time that this happened. And he was very against. Ain't was behaving. Transferring because he thought it wasn't true to Manhattan Theater Club's mission statement. He thought that that was too commercial. And Meadow basically was like, screw you.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah. You trying to make money or what?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. She was like, don't piss on my parade. This is going to Broadway. But so, yeah, what happened was Richard Malpy Jr. Of Malpy and Shire fame. So they did Baby and Big, a favorite of mine, Malpy and Shire, you know, they were a songwriting team in the 60s and had not really had anything come to Broadway. I think they had, like one or two songs in variety shows on Broadway, but, like, nothing that was their own score. Everything they tried to write for theater ended up closing out of town, like, every single time. And they essentially, like. Like, screw this. They put together a review of songs of theirs that never made it to the stage, some of which had already been recorded by Ms. Streisand. Like, starting Here, Starting now and Autumn. And I think she might have even done travel. And what about Today? And they did the review Starting Here, starting Out at Manhattan Theatre Club. It did well. They got a Grammy nomination. And Lynn Meadow was like, so what about doing, like, another review show for us? And at the time. Who is it? Murray Horowitz, who's a big jazz fan. I just love these two Jews came up with a misbehaving.

[Andre Jordan]

Funny story. Can I interject?

[Matt Koplik]

Please? Please do.

[Andre Jordan]

I'm. So one night, I'm like, out with my. My. My partner at the time. And this is like earlier in our relationship, so two years back. And, you know, like, when you're like, meeting each other's like, friends and friends of friends. So we go out one night, our friend Dan, we meet his friend Anne and her girlfriend at the time, Ari. They're now married, and we're just like, chatting and things like that, you know, Anne's like, oh, you know you do musical theater? And I was like, yes. She goes, well, have you ever done Ain't Misbehavin And I was like, actually, yes, I have done eight Misbehavin. It's one of my absolute favorite musicals. And she was like, well, funny story. That's my dad is Maury Horowitz. Yeah. I was like, excuse me. She goes, yeah. And it's dad's morning horse. He's actually coming here tonight. So then, like, he shows up. We were there for trivia night at a bar near us. So then he came and, like, sat across and we just, like, chatted about ain't misbehaving for a while. He was amazing. Very nice guy. But it was totally, like, random. Like, oh, yeah, this is. This is my dad.

[Matt Koplik]

It's so crazy. It's all. It's all interspersed because I know that Richard Malpe's daughters, Charlotte and Emily, they both have been on the podcast. I know them from the Stage Door Manor days. And I mean, he's like. He's such a fun guy, but, like, for a show like Amos, Behaven. It's so crazy to meet Richard and be like, you directed that show.

[Andre Jordan]

Because he's like.

[Matt Koplik]

And sweet and quiet. And like, Amos behaviors like, it is fucking hot energy. So it's so funny to look at him. And if you watch the Tony Awards when he wins for Best director, you're like, that's the guy who came up with, like, the most sizzling show in town.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like, I don't know. I. It's like Ira Glass coming up with, like. And Juliet. You're like, you, you.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah, the idea.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I mean, you're talented, you're smart, but. Okay. But, yeah, Horowitz wanted to do, like, a bio musical on Fats Waller's life, and that seems like a good idea. Waller had a lot of great songs. And the way that Malky describes it, he's like, you know, when Waller lived a big life, you know, he lived fast and died young. He died at like, the age of 39 or something. It was like a big personality, and so it made sense. He's like. So they were. They had come up with the first act of a bio musical, and they're like, we couldn't come up with the second act because it's like, well, then he just. He dies.

[Andre Jordan]

Like, they're all the same.

[Matt Koplik]

Everybody, all the same.

[Andre Jordan]

Star rises, star loses money. Star either dies or stops or has, like. It's always the same.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, so there's now. There are two structures now for the bio jukebox musical. It depends on if your protagonist is female or male.

[Andre Jordan]

Correct.

[Matt Koplik]

And also if the person is still alive.

[Andre Jordan]

Correct.

[Matt Koplik]

Because if they're still alive, I want. Now. Even if they're dead now, like, their estates still want to make it, like a shrine to them.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

But, yeah, so, like, if they're. If the protagonist is a woman, like Cher or Donna Summer or Carole King, their only flaw is that they chose the wrong romantic partner at one point. And if they're male, like an Ain't Too Proud or Jersey Boys, they aren't close enough to their kids until it's too late.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Same thing with the Neil diamond musical. Like, that's always what the Act 2 is about. It's like, Fame and Fortune wasn't what I thought it was going to be. I didn't get to know my kids. It's like, that's always what it is. Anywho. Anywho. But no, they decided to kind of scrap that because they're. Because, you know, they were like, this is. This is before the bio jukebox musical was a genre. So they learned early on, like, that sort of a dead end, dramatically speaking. So Lynn Meadow, the artistic director of Mittenhouse Theater Club, she's like, well, Malfe, just, like, do another review. Like, it was starting here. Starting now is like, okay. So it was gonna originally be the same cast format, which was one woman, two men. Okay, that's. Sorry, two women, one man. No, no, sorry. Starting here, Starting now was two. Was two women and one man. And for, I think, Amos Behaven, he was gonna do two men, one woman. And they had a female star interested, and she backed out. So they're like, okay, let's do Open Call. And he said on the very first day, nell Carter, Emelia McQueen and Ken Page all came in. And he's like, well. And he had a harder time choosing between the two women. And finally was like, well, what if I just didn't choose? What if I just had both of them? And then Audrey. Yeah. And Andre de Shields comes in and then Iron Cara. And he said that the casting kind of came about of. He said, I wanted an odd number of people so there could always be mixing and matching of romantic partners. So that would add some drama. He wanted different styles of voices. And he also said it was very important to him to have different sizes of actors on stage. He thought that the dynamics of that really would help with personality and whatnot. And he's totally right. And it's something that kind of always has been embedded into the DNA of the show. And basically said they started. They started rehearsals on January first and there was no show. They had a song catalog and they kind of figured it out as they went.

[Andre Jordan]

Uh huh.

[Matt Koplik]

And they. And he said what they. He made sure that the. That Luther Henderson gave them a very. He. That he would create a very intense arrangement of Black and Blue that would take them a while to learn. So he could basically come up with Act 2 while they were learning.

[Andre Jordan]

Oh God. And it's. He's not wrong. I don't think I ever really like got it right. You know what I mean? It's. It's hard.

[Matt Koplik]

It's very hard. And like. And it's two hours of other music. So it's not like. It's not like you're just dealing with that. You've got. There's a lot of shit going down. But yeah, he said he intentionally made it difficult so it would take them a long time. So he bought himself some time to come up with act two. And they. Yeah, they did it like in a cabaret setting on East 73rd Street. It blew up immediately and they played for a month and then they decided they were going to go to Broadway and basically kept it the same. The only thing that they really did was, you know, they beefed up the set a bit. And I don't know why Irene Cara didn't move to Broadway. It might be because she already had a film career going.

[Andre Jordan]

I mean, it might. I mean. Yeah, because I'm thinking if this was.

[Matt Koplik]

This was 78.

[Andre Jordan]

78, yeah. Well, that was probably right before Fame. Yeah, I think she'll be like in the 80s. Let me know, I'm gonna do a.

[Matt Koplik]

Fame came out in 1980, so she probably filmed it in 79.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes. So she had stuff coming up. Her career was going that way.

[Matt Koplik]

She had already done Sparkle. So like, she was. She was. I think she was probably the most famous of the five. When that came, when that show first opened, because no one knew Amelia. Nobody knew Nell. Nell had done the flop, dude. So like, who's ever been like, oh, right. That girl Andre was probably the next most famous because of the Wiz. But like, Stephanie Mills was really the one who kind of came out of the Wiz with any name recognition.

[Andre Jordan]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So, yeah, it was. It was probably definitely. Irene was the biggest name. So she probably. And because it was supposed to just be that one month, she was like, I'm sorry, I'm booked and blessed. I gotta go. And the other four were like, well, we're out of work. Broadway actors will take.

[Andre Jordan]

We're gonna. We're gonna ride this Drain.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And. And, and no disrespect to Kara, who's, you know, who is an I, who's an icon, but I'm so glad that Charlene Woodard did it on Broadway because that is insane.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes. She's the full complete package. Full complete package.

[Matt Koplik]

And I give you my hot take.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

If I were to do Amos behaving, not that anyone's ever gonna ask, I would want the Charlene Woodard track. That is the track I want.

[Andre Jordan]

It's the one. It's a. It's got a great arc to it. It's super fun.

[Matt Koplik]

I just want to do Yacht Boat swing and I want to do. To do both. I don't even have to do a haven. Can I just do Yacht boat? Like that's that. That shit's baller. Okay, you were gonna say something. I interrupted you because I'm so rude. It's my podcast.

[Andre Jordan]

I don't remember what it was other than the fact that like she's incredible and she does all three and that she's. Her dancing ability really lends itself completely to this role in a way that like she's just throwing her that character that she formulated and made. I don't know if it's the same thing that Irene was bringing to the show, but like, you know, if that was like, if that's what she said and then Charlene sort of took it and molded or Charlene was just like, I'm gonna come in and do this, you know?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Honestly, probably. I mean, I mean, Irene dances. We saw it in Fame. She was her coco was part of the, the. The dance school in Fame. She was not going for music. But also I love that. Which like Fame is now officially part of the conversation has really nothing to.

[Andre Jordan]

Do with how they did up there.

[Matt Koplik]

But although Debbie Allen also connection to both of them. Do you know that Debbie Allen was a replacement in Amos Behaven?

[Andre Jordan]

No, I didn't.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh yeah. This show has had some cool replacements. Had Debbie Allen. Lillias White did the non act tour of it. She was Charlene Woodard. Say what?

[Andre Jordan]

The Pointer Sisters stepped in for the.

[Matt Koplik]

Tour once there was somebody else that I had written down. Adrian Lennox did it at one point. Yeah. Just like some amazing people. But yeah, because Richard Malpe talked about really like what kind of made the show so unique and why it's kind of lasted is because he didn't really set a show and then made the actors fit to it. He worked with his company and saw what they could do and it was very Collaborative. And honestly, that's sort of what creates the best art, is when it is that collaborative of what everyone brings to the table.

[Andre Jordan]

I agree.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, one of my favorite stories is this is a movie situation. But you're familiar with When Harry Met Sally. Yes, the movie.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So the famous scene, obviously, is in Katz's deli. The orgasm scene.

[Andre Jordan]

Correct.

[Matt Koplik]

That scene originally was written as just Billy Crystal and Meg Ryan talking about orgasms and how. And Meg and Meg Ryan being like, well, women fake it and they get closer to shooting and they're sort of talking about the script. They're figuring stuff out. And Meg Ryan's like, I think it would be funnier if she actually just, like, mimicked an orgasm to prove to him that women do it. And they're like, yeah, absolutely. And so they. They get to it, and then on the day of shooting, they're doing it. And then Billy Crystal's like, well, what if after she's done, someone in the deli says, I'll have what she's having.

[Andre Jordan]

It's. It's genius.

[Matt Koplik]

That's the collaborative process and actors in the moment to.

[Andre Jordan]

To. To do the work for these people and for.

[Matt Koplik]

To prepare for the scene 1,000%. So, I mean, speaking of the Office, did you ever watch the Office?

[Andre Jordan]

Oh, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Are you familiar with the podcast Office Ladies with.

[Andre Jordan]

I'm not.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, so it's Angela Kinsey and Jenna Fisher, Angela and Pam from the show, which I did not know this, but they are best friends. They became best friends doing. They're still best friends. And everyone from that show is still very connected with each other. So they're doing an Office deep dive rewatch podcast called Office Ladies, and they've brought a lot of people on to discuss stuff. And, you know, every episode, you know, they go through the episode, they discuss it, and then they offer backstage anecdotes and they bring people on to give more feedback. But the thing that they always talk about is that Greg Daniels, the showrunner and creator of the show, his motto is, always the best idea wins. It doesn't matter where it comes from. So everyone on that set felt heard. And there are. They're like. There are so many things on the show that became iconic that weren't just, like, from the brain of one person. It was like, sometimes it was like it was a crew member or someone, like, from catering said something one day, and Greg Daniels was like, that's going in.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so that's what this was. Was, you know, everyone just was very. A part of the process So I am 100% sure when Charlene Woodard came on, Malpy wasn't like, so Irene did this, Irene did that.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

She's like, I dance. She's like, I kick, I flail, and I can take a purse and I will swing it around. Life depends on it.

[Andre Jordan]

Ah, truly. And also, like, with a show like this, where the music is black, it's the. It's the. The team trusting the artist, the black storytellers, to do the. To tell that story. You know what I mean? Coming up, being like, listen, we really. Here's the music, here's the setup that we've got. But when it comes to creating this, we're going to trust that, you know, how this is, how this is going to flow, how it's going to work. We'll be here to, you know, stitch things together, but we trust that you're going to be able to get to the heart of these songs.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[Andre Jordan]

You know?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it was the. I had Antoine Smith on both the podcast and on my old web series. Yeah, Wonderful man. He did Color Purple and said, like, the very first day of rehearsal, John Doyle said, like, this is not my story. This is your story. He's like, what I can do is help you with, you know, pacing and the overall structures. Like, I'm going to be an objective observer and sort of help make sure that it all comes together as a unified whole. But I am not going to tell you how to, like, feel in a moment. I'm not going to tell you what's authentic. I was like, that's up to you. He's like, I am just sort of going to help you guys get the ship to shore, but I'm not the person who's steering.

[Andre Jordan]

And look what happened with that show.

[Matt Koplik]

Tony's and got me pregnant multiple times. I will say the one. And I don't know if this was John or if this was the actors, but because I only knew the show kind of from the original cast recording. I knew the movie very well. I knew the book, but I didn't love the original cast recording for, you know, reasons. And I go to see the revival the weekend after Thanksgiving, and I'm like, okay, yeah, sure, we'll see. And I'd won the lotto for it. And I think I was in the front row. And I just remember when the church ladies begin, because we have, you know, first of the. Hey, Sister. And then the church ladies come, and they stormed to the front of the stage and sang into my mouth.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I was like, I don't know whose decision this was, but you knew exactly how to disarm your. This really judgmental gay. Whoever's decision that was. Brava. You got me pregnant so many times.

[Andre Jordan]

There ain't nothing I can do nor.

[Matt Koplik]

Nothing I can say that folks don't.

[Andre Jordan]

Criticize me, but I'm gonna do just as I want to anyway and don't care if they all despise me.

[Matt Koplik]

But I bring this up just because, you know, it was a very special situation. And you know, they, they start rehearsals in January, they open on February, they close the beginning of March, they start rehearsals first week of April to go into the Longacre theater to open the first week of May like it was bang, bang, boom.

[Andre Jordan]

The Longacre where Diana the musical was.

[Matt Koplik]

You bet your Broadway ass, Andre. Ah, it's all connected, baby. And similar to the Longacre. Leah Polstadt. I don't know if you've seen.

[Andre Jordan]

That.

[Matt Koplik]

That. Well, the poster is the kid playing the cat's cradle, which is like a very on the nose theme in the play. But it's, it hit home. But it's just how everything's connected. Like every. No, there's a randomness to it all, but every action we make has a reaction to it. So at the end of the day, nothing is totally random because it's all in response to something else. So, yes. Without Amos behaving. Moving to the Longacre, would Andre Jordan have made his Broadway debut in Diana?

[Andre Jordan]

I don't know. Who's to say? Who's to say?

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, if, if, if John Doyle hadn't existed, would I have had nine children? I don't know. I don't know. I couldn't tell you. But, but, but we live in the timeline where I do and you did. So here we are.

[Andre Jordan]

I'm here. I'm grateful.

[Matt Koplik]

We're so grateful. But. Yeah, but such a, it's such a quick timeline because it goes month by month. They open and like two weeks, No.

[Andre Jordan]

A week later probably, right?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. They open and a week later are the Tony nominations and then two weeks after that are the Tony Awards.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah, that's pretty wild.

[Matt Koplik]

And do you like to watch old Tony award ceremonies? Am I okay? Great. So I don't know if you watched any of the Tony clip that I sent you, but back in the day the Tonys used to be done at Broadway theaters, not at Radio City. Yes, and I've definitely talked about this on my pod and I've so sorry listeners for hearing it again, but I don't Care. It's my. It's my house.

[Andre Jordan]

Mine.

[Matt Koplik]

This is my house. What I loved about when they were at Broadway theaters was that because it's, you know, 15 to 1700 seats, it's not like anyone who can buy a ticket can go. It's really like the community in that theater. So you get a sense from the audience responses of like what the shows are that everyone's behind and when somebody wins, like who we're excited about. So with Ain't Misbehavin, like it's so crazy because on the 20th century, in a weird way was the show the community should have gotten behind. It had Hal Prince, Compton and Green John Cullen wins. Everyone's excited. Everyone's excited that Kevin Klein wins. But when Richard and Walby Jr. Won director, the whole theater was like fucking on fire. And then when Amos Behaven won, everyone was like, yes. Yeah, it was. You can, you can tell in those ceremonies when the show, the audience that the community loves wins.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And that was the show. And it was. And it's so fascinating that like it had only been on Broadway for three weeks and already everyone was like so behind it.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah. And it seems like, I mean that reaction proves like they were behind it from the beginning because all those people were probably like, have you seen the show that's playing over at Manhattan Theater Club? You got to go see it. I hear it's going to transfer to Broadway. It's probably going to transfer. Oh shit, it's transferring. We got to go see it. Because I heard it just, you know, I mean, like kept, kept it hyped up so until, you know, Taurus and the rest of the world had a chance to get into it and really, you know, because that could, I mean that show could have easily like had maybe like a four month opera rerun and then gone for another year and then things. But like the, the quickness that it had and how rapid it was to, to get to where it got to all the right place, the right time.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. And this is a case where it like Amus Behaven hasn't necessarily been an international sensation. It has done well outside of America, but like it is a very American musical just in terms of 100% its history and jazz and whatnot.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So like, like the fact that it plays in other countries at all, I'm like, good on you. But it's.

[Andre Jordan]

I never thought about that. But I guess, yeah, they could.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean like when it opened in the West End a year later, it didn't really run very long. They lost the Olivier to a musical called Songbook, which. Who's ever heard of her since? Yeah, exactly. And Songbook only ran like five performances longer than Amos Behaven did on the West End. So it's like, did you really need to do that? Yeah, it could have gone to Ain't. But, yeah, like Amos Behaven, it's still done all the time here. It had multiple national tours. They brought it back in the late 80s for a bit, although that was considered sort of a letdown just because, like, by that point now it was 10 years later and Nell Carter had become such a phenomenon.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

That the ensemble level kind of felt off kilter. And Also, you know, 10 years is a long time.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And while Andre de Shields is a machine, he couldn't necessarily do with the same vigor at 45 that he could at 35.

[Andre Jordan]

100%.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Yeah. So, like, Frank Rich in the Times was like, oh, no, it hasn't lost any of its luster. But the other critics are like, it's lost a bit.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, it's not the show, it's just, you know, and the cast is still the cast. But 10 years. 10 years is 10 years. That's a fact. Yes.

[Andre Jordan]

You know, and like, as you, as a theater goer, as an audience member, you change too. Right. So it's like the reason that you do revivals 10 years later is because you want fresh eyes, fresh this. Like, you want it to just like it to feel different because you're different, you know?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. What you want to capture is the same feeling, the same energy. Not necessarily a replica.

[Andre Jordan]

A replica, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think, I mean, also, I think Frank Rich was so enamored with that revival because it was coming. The 80s and 70s were decades where, like, when you did a revival, it was either like a full blown nostalgia throwback or, and like kind of cutesy or it was like a full on replica. So, like we did like Sweet Charity and it was exactly what Bob Fosse did West side Story. It's exactly what Jerome Robbins did Cabaret, exactly what Hal Prince did. And Amos Behaven did an exact replica. But also it was a nostalgic throwback at the same time. So it was a little bit of both. And so the fact that it didn't feel totally dipped in formaldehyde. Frank Rich was like, oh, thank God there's some energy.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm like, oh, there's some.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But like, the 90s would then usher in the. The decade of revivals, like Guys and Dolls and Carousel and Showboat where it's like, no, no, no. What if we actually, like, came at this anew?

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But, you know, like, with Amos behaving it. So I, I say all this because, you know, we, we talk about. We talked about Hamilton and Rent and we have other shows. We're gonna talk about this as well. You know, I've always said in order to make a Broadway musical a true hit with out of towners, New York kind of has to get behind it first.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because out of towners want to see what's the hot ticket. And we're, we are the ones that kind of make the thing the hot ticket. And it's. It's always sort of hard to remember that. So, like, Hamilton became Hamilton because all of New York decided that they wanted to go to the public to see it.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Rent became Rent because all of Rent, all of New York said they were going to go to New York Theater Workshop. And the same thing is true of Ain't Misbehaven. Like, all of New York was like, I gotta get, as you said, like, gotta get myself to E 73rd Street. And then. And because it moves so quickly, the buzz was like, the buzz just intensifies because you're like, oh, it's that good. It transferred a month later.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then the reviews come out and they're like, yeah, no, it's amazing. And so it's just. It becomes a snowball effect and it's this tornado you can't deny. And that's always a really exciting thing. It happens rarely on Broadway.

[Andre Jordan]

It's so rare. And like, I like to think, like, you know, when you think of, like, the grand scheme of all of Broadway, some people might think, like, oh, yeah, that doesn't happen as much anymore. But it's like, it happens. It's just. It's so distant between when each thing hits lightning in a bottle like that. That's why they call that lightning in a bottle, because it just doesn't happen all the time. Like, no one knows why hits her heads. Like, I saw Chicago last night and, you know, and I saw Jake's Montoo. She was wonderful. The leads were incredible. The show, actually, I really enjoy. I know a lot of people have a lot to say about it being on there for too long, but I mean, like, who would have guessed that that version of the show in 1996 would just. Would be what it was and have this sort of way that people are like, no, this is actually the quintessential New York City show right. About Chicago. But it has it feels very New York. So everyone has just decided that, like, Chicago is the New York Broadway show to see, so that.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[Andre Jordan]

People go, you know.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. You answered all my questions in one breath, so thank you so much. I was going to be like, how is Jinx House is holding up? My mom and I want to go. My mom is a big Jinx Monsoon fan.

[Andre Jordan]

Go see Jinx. Go see her.

[Matt Koplik]

When. When. When Beanie felt, you know, she was leaving Funny Girl, my mom was like, well, they should get Jinx. And I'm like, she's not.

[Andre Jordan]

She's not wrong.

[Matt Koplik]

She's not wrong. I had to sit her down and be like, sweetie, it's. It's. In a few hours, they're going to say, it's Lea Michelle.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah. Yeah, that. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

But. Yes, after Leah James Monsoon. But, yeah, you're right. It's so being in the community, and I. I would not flatter myself to say that I'm in the community. I've got some, like, fingers in the pies, but I'm not, like, balls deep into the way that a lot of my guests are. I, like, I. I have a lot of interactions with young Broadway fans, which I love. I love to sort of have these conversations with them and help them discover new shows and grow their education. But there's this sort of. It's not that it's not real, it's just that it's not. It's a little overblown. The sort of the. The fervor that young Broadway fans have for, like, a specific show when it comes out, right. Like, we think of, like, Beetlejuice or Six or anything like that. You would think that there are these phenomenons and they're successful, they do well. But there's a very specific feeling when a show truly catches on immediately, like, wildfire. And as you said, like, it is so rare it happens, but it's. There's, like, a bit of a shift, and it's a. It's the show everyone's talking about. It's the show everyone respects. It's the show everyone likes. It's a show that does well. And. And. And it's.

[Andre Jordan]

It.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, because sometimes a show will catch on, but not everyone will respect it. Right. Like, I'm about to record after this, I have a new cue. And that sort of. With the whole Wicked thing was, like, Wicked caught on immediately, but it wasn't necessarily respected. Still totally isn't. It's like, even those of us who will say we like Wicked, we say it sort of definitely, like, I like Wicked. It's like. It's like, yeah, sure, it's been around for almost 20 years. That's not a hot take. But because it's not super respected, you know, it's. It's still kind of said defiantly.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Something like a Hamilton or a Rent or even like, say, like a Book of Mormon. Those were musicals that, you know, catch on immediately, get acclaim immediately, and everyone just sort of agrees that it's good, that it's successful, and then we will see it continuously to keep making it successful. And that was a misbehaven in so many ways. Like truly the hit of that season and a cultural shift that even some of the bigger hits of that decade don't necessarily match. Like, Annie was more of a cultural phenomenon the year before. I can't tell you that Annie was a cultural shift to Broadway in the same way Amos Behaven was.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah. Especially talking about review shows as review shows and sort of laying the, you know, prior groundwork to bio musicals. Right. Or just taking an artist's work and figuring out how to make that work on stage, you know.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. Yeah. There's. Okay. Actually, you know what? We have to take a break and. And when we get back from the break, we'll discuss this further. So let's take that break.

[Andre Jordan]

Let's take a break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top.

[Matt Koplik]

You're a coolidge dollar. And we're back. That was such a wonderful break. Did you have a great break, Andre?

[Andre Jordan]

I did. I took a pee and I had some sip of my coffee.

[Matt Koplik]

Wonderful. I went and knitted a sweater and you can't see it though, guys. It's not ready yet. So we were. You were talking about review bio, jukebox musicals and the thing about a misbehaving. And we see this with Broadway a lot. Like when Hamilton came out, people every. I mean, anytime, like some. Anytime he was alive and something quote, unquote, groundbreaking came out, everyone wanted to know what Sondheim had to say about it.

[Andre Jordan]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

So they're like, sondheim, Hamilton, groundbreaking. And he's like, well, he's like, let's see what the next couple of years look like before we say that.

[Andre Jordan]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And the same thing was true when Hair came out. There's a book called the Season. And I was like, oh, do you think Hair is going to be groundbreaking? And everyone in the community's like, of course it is. Like, we're gonna Get a bunch of shitty rock musicals now. And what it is is that it's everybody trying to follow what they think is successful and not going with their guts of what they think is good. And there had been reviews before, Ain't Misbehaving, but they all lasted, like, three or four months. And the only ones that were successful were off Broadway. And there had been musicals dedicated to a specific song catalog. Like, there was Beatlemania, but everyone's like, well, that was a rock concert and they were trying to emulate the Beatles. Amos Haven was brand spanking new because it was a review with musical theater energy and it really fucking worked. And so for the rest of the 80s, everyone tried to mimic it and no one could get it right. And we eventually got into the bio jukebox musicals in the 90s, and those all kind of bombed. Like, the way that the jukebox musical worked was like, it was a hit and then it died. And then it was a hit with Mamma Mia. Again, and then it died. And then Jersey Boys came out, and then Beautiful came out, like, a couple years after that. And now it's like, we're never getting rid of them because.

[Andre Jordan]

Especially because those three are. Because they did so well and they do so well in regional settings. So, like, people. People know those shows. Like, you could have never been to Broadway, but you might have. You've. You might have seen the tour come through or your local theater has done Mamma Mia. Or Jersey Boys. Yeah. Or Beautiful now. Because Beautiful's being done a lot.

[Matt Koplik]

All the way, all the time. Yeah. Which I like. Beautiful. I don't love Beautiful. Beautiful is really the bio jubucks musical that started. That template of our protagonist has no flaws except the one. And also, like, that whole, oh, I wrote a song. I don't know if anyone's going to listen to it. What's it called on Broadway? And like that.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like, oh, I could never sing this. No one ever wants to hear my voice saying Natural Woman. It's like, no, Carol King's gonna do it. It's like in Bohemian Rhapsody and Mike Myers is like, no one will ever listen to Bohemian Rhapsody. But Jersey Boys and Mamma Mia worked so well because no one thought they were gonna be anything. So, like, the Four Seasons were all very honest with the book writers about what went down. So they all come off kind of shitty. And that led to drama. No one thought anything about Mamiya, so they had to work really hard to, like, make it something.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

When you have something to prove And Amis Haven was sort of the same. Like, they didn't make it thinking it was going to go to Broadway. But they're like, we do want to make something special because, like, we have the shot. Why not, like, make it the most we can? And that's sort of what people don't recognize. Also, the thing about Amos behavior that I love so much, and I would love to hear your thoughts about this more. As someone who's done the damn thing, I am simply just the silly white boy in the audience who loses his shit for all of it. I love that it sort of celebrates the excellence of that artistry just by, like, sheer joy of what an artist can do. What? Like the different facets of their personalities, of their. Of their talent, of their joy. Like, it's just such. It's an explosion of joy. That show, to me.

[Andre Jordan]

I agree. I agree. It also is. It gets a chance to show the black experience of that time through the music that was most impactful. Whether, like, no matter where you were, right. If you were going downtown to the clubs to hear it, or like, one of my things that I really like about. No, not every show does it the same way. But specifically, like, the recording, that's the recording that they did for television.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andre Jordan]

Production, where the first act is more clubby downtown and the second act is a little more uptown. Sort of making fun of the bourgeoisiness of New York City and maybe black folks that live on one end versus the other, but all while still hearing the same music and feeling, you know, having that connectivity for each other and for the music and for their stories in a way that's not giving you a full through line, but just like, dropping into, like, the lives of these people and how the music influences their. Their everyday lives. Whether they're having fun, they're flirting, they're dancing, they're chilling. Like, what that was, what that time was like. They have a new expression along old Harlem way that tells you if a party is 10 times more than gay, to say that things are jumping. He's not a single dude.

[Matt Koplik]

I've always sort of viewed it as like, act one is the experience of just living, having the raw talent and the joy. Act two is once you've made it and the riches that come from success. And then the second half of Act 2 is sort of like, still enjoying all of that, while also acknowledging a lot of the pain and the confusion and the wounds that come from. I mean, being a human in general, but definitely the black experience. You know, it's. And it doesn't do it, like, explicitly. It's not like. And then Fats Waller became so successful that now we have this moment. They have moments of narration, which I really appreciate because. And they also. It's never about, like, and now feel bad because he died at 39. And they're like, no, we celebrate his life. So, like, let's tell a fun anecdote about him while also acknowledging the racism and hypocrisy of the music industry. So, like. Right. You know, these black composers would go around selling their melodies for 50 bucks, and then that same music publisher would make hundreds of thousands of dollars that year off that music. He's like, but what Fats Waller would do is he would sell the same melody to multiple publishers, like, end up making, like, $1,000 that week.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

No. And then. Then they all. None of them could all make $100,000 off of the song. It was about who published it first. So he got. He got his. Yeah.

[Andre Jordan]

And I like those. I wrote this down, actually, during that little clip in the show. I remember when I was doing the show, those small, little book things that aren't. They're not longer than maybe, like, a paragraph. Right. Just to keep the show moving. I always remember thinking, like, even when I was reading it and then rewatching this, I was like, I bet they all just. No one really wrote. I bet they were just, like, throwing some things out and, like, maybe sort of. It all felt used to. I couldn't remember if it was improvised. It always sort of felt like, okay, you can say this and. And feel free to sort of bring in something here, you know, because you're. A lot of. It is audience interaction.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Andre Jordan]

But I do remember feeling like, those smaller things that sort of move the story a little bit forward in terms of, like, knowing, like, where you're at. Like, when they're setting up the girls who dance with the ladies who sing with the band. And there's a little bit of, like, sort of chatter there about what's. What's to come or set it up. It's sort of just like. Just enough where it's just not overdone. It's just sort of like, lay some information and then we keep going.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. And then. Yeah. Little pieces of dialogue throughout songs that sound improvisational. But, like, when you watch different versions, different productions, like, oh, it's absolutely. In the script.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah. You read the script and you're like, oh, that's. That. They played that very well. Because I did not think that that was a script in Line, but I.

[Matt Koplik]

Don'T know who she is. But that's an awfully long solo that.

[Andre Jordan]

Who is she?

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, my God, I got it tonight. You got nothing. Oh, good. And then, of course, the number one famous line of the show, which is, well, how'd she get that job? One never knows.

[Andre Jordan]

Do one, do one.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. It's so good. It's. And there's. There's a. There is a sexuality to the show, which I love, but it. It plays with all the different kinds of ways that sexuality can be. Like, it's flirty, it's playful, it's saucy, it's cheeky. And the show has a lot of fun with itself. So it's for, like, I would argue, the majority of the time. So when we get to something like Black and Blue or Keeping out of Mischief, which are much more introspective songs, it feels earned. And not, like. I don't say pandering, because they don't. Pandering is more like. Like a safety net. Like the musical we were discussing during break, where I was like, oh, you're shouting I love purple to a room full of mauve. That's pandering. Not pandering, but, like, you know what I mean? We're sort of like the now the serious moment. And you will all be moved because we told you you will be.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, I've. I always felt like the best dramatic shows sort of disarm you with humor at the beginning.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And ease you in. And then when the drama happens, you're taken in because you're not sitting there going like, I'm about to watch something serious. You're just engaged. And Amos Haven. And also Amos Behaven like, it doesn't start at an 11 in the same way that another certain musical on Broadway right now currently does with jazz music, where it's like 11 dryers. Amos Haven starts kind of softer and, like, charming and. And very engaging, talking to the audience.

[Andre Jordan]

And builds up to a fun finish at the end. But there are there ballads in Act 1. It doesn't. It just tick, tick, tick, tick. Sticks up. Which I think also goes to what you said about earning those moments, because now you watch these characters slowly build who they are like. And I. Charlene is like the one that I always go to because her character is. She. Her character is like, maybe at an 11. Right. Because she is the more like, fun, flirty, young, just, like, doing her thing. And then you get to see her be so ridiculous. And then she has these moments where they're where they sort of check her throughout of, like, how she's being a thing. And then she sort of makes a decision in getting on mischief now that she's gonna. She's gonna own herself a bit more. And like, you know, but you. By the time you get there, she has laid down this idea of who she is to you. So then when you get there, you're like, oh, it's a full person. It's not just this. It's not.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, everyone has sort of. I don't call it a bait and switch, but like, everyone has who they present as an Act 1, and then you get a major viewpoint of them that's different actually. It's like with Charlene, and I think we're gravitating towards her because we all know that that's my track.

[Andre Jordan]

Maybe that's it. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Really? I just want to do step, touch, step, touch, hands. On Zach, it's the Becky role, but because Charlene, that. That track is. Is Becky. And there's. And the point is, like, we've got Nell and Armelia, who are, you know, more voluptuous sizes and their. And their personalities, therefore, are much more abrasive. So like with Nell, we've got, you know, her being kind of the tough one in act one. And then act two, she gets mean to me, which shows you a little bit more of that softer side. And then Charlayne, she's kind of portrayed as the bimbo in Act 1 and. And this. And the sex object, the sex toy with limbs, as I like to call it. She's objectified. She's thought of as lesser and dumb. She's the one that gets cheated with, not the one who gets committed to. And Act 2 has that moment that's played for comedy where Andre is now paired up with Armelia and gets caught with Charlene. And then he and Armelia have the song. I forget what it's called, but it's basically like, about apologizing for the cheating and they move off together. That ain't right that I ran.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

But the point of that song is by the end of it, like, they kind of still just go off together. And then Charlene sings keeping out of mischief now. And it's just sort of about how she's aware of how she gets used and what she keeps kind of falling into, both because of how people treat her and how she willingly lets herself sort of step in it all the time.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's like, okay, it's. She's learned now officially in that moment that no. No one respects the bimbo and no one takes seriously the. The mistress. So she's got to kind of get her act together and, and put herself in check, which takes a lot of what's wrong for self actualization. I'm. I am running low on coffee, so I'm. The words are not, I think, the.

[Andre Jordan]

Director choice for her to be in the room because she's at the piano while they're doing ink that. Right?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Andre Jordan]

So for her to have been in that situation, get thrown out of it and then to watch it and then to see how messy it is, I feel like that's her turning point of being like, oh, maybe this is. Maybe this is all just a bit too much. Yeah, maybe I'm doing a little too much.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe I'm going a little too much. And also maybe the drama is not that fun.

[Andre Jordan]

Maybe it's not that fun. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Andre Jordan]

I want to keep myself out of that mischief now, you know? Yeah. Romance. Living up to every vow. Ooh, I'm keeping out of mischief now.

[Matt Koplik]

She's also got the biggest mouth, which is. That means nothing but like she, her.

[Andre Jordan]

The whole expressiveness of her body, from her mouth to her. To the top of her head to the extension of her feet. Like anytime that she. She does a lot of dropping it like it's hot. Like, she'll do like a full, like to the floor and back up and she kicks and like the whole, the wholeness of that. And though she brings to her character, like it's all just. It's all there. And like literally when she's thinking, keep out of mischief. Now I'm just staring into her throat because I just want to know where the sound is coming from. She's got that mouth at the very end. She like just. It's like mischief and she just holds it and then like sort of looks at the camera like real super, like cute and oh, it's so good. But I live for the big mouth because I'm looking right into the throat.

[Matt Koplik]

So there was, There was a night. One night I was at my friend Danny's and we had Papa John's whiskey and an edible. And then we watched Mrs. Claus because I. This was, this was recently. It was like we were just past Christmas, but like it was within earshot and I, because I had been going through it and I needed like a night and in my haze I said, you know how some people have cheesecake mouth or cheesecake face? And Danny's like, what does that mean? And I go, you look at their face, and you just know that they've tasted good cheesecake. And at the time. And I wrote this down at the time, I said, cheryl Lee Ralph has tasted good cheesecake.

[Andre Jordan]

And then I said.

[Matt Koplik]

I said, Amy Adams. Amy Adams has had bad cheesecake. And. And Kristen Stewart has never had cheese.

[Andre Jordan]

Never had cheesecake.

[Matt Koplik]

Darlene Woodard has had good cheesecake.

[Andre Jordan]

Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's got good cheesecake face.

[Andre Jordan]

Ah, I love it.

[Matt Koplik]

What a weird, specific thing. But, like, that is.

[Andre Jordan]

I totally get it.

[Matt Koplik]

That is the kind of thought you can only have after a lot of whiskey pizza. And remember that guys, who had. Who has good cheesecake face right in Tell us.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. You look like you've had good cheesecake, Andre.

[Andre Jordan]

Oh, I have. I'm a Golden Girls fan, so, you know, I've. I've had cheesecake.

[Matt Koplik]

And see Rue McClanahan, you look at her like, that bitch has had good cheesecake. God. You know who is probably seen in the Haven? All the Golden Girls. They probably all went together when it was touring.

[Andre Jordan]

Oh, I bet. Oh, my God. I bet 100%.

[Matt Koplik]

What's a. What's a favorite song of yours in this show?

[Andre Jordan]

I have a lot.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. We'll go. We're going through all them. We're starting with a Pinky and going to the full fist.

[Andre Jordan]

Okay. So. So take Nobody's Business is actually one of my favorite songs. And so I. I didn't know that from this show before. I'm. I love Billie Holiday, so I know that from her catalog. I've seen Lady Sings the Blues with Diana Ross countless times. I had. I had the DVD back in the day when people were having DVDs. So that's one of my absolute favorite songs in, like, a. Like, a standard songbook. So that's one of my favorites in the show. And I love that it's, like the first thing that you meet with Andrew, which really much sets up his character very well. Of just like, this is my life. I'm gonna swing. I'm gonna do what I do. There's. You know, this is just. I am who I am, baby. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He's like the Vice track. He's. He's always. He's always indulging in the vices.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes. 100 and which, you know, act two, Viper's Drag. Clear indication of what vice he's consuming. You know what I mean? Just in case there was confusion about why he is the way he is, it's this, which I also love the Viper's Drag. As a. As a cannabis user, I found that role and that song very fun to do because, you know, nobody's judging. They're like, oh, yeah, sometimes I'll indulge myself. But this guy's doing on stage. It's funny.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. You get. You get to channel your life into the stash.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100% mean to me, of course, is just, like, one of the most heartbreaking songs. And I love it. I love it, love it, love it. I think a lot of people can. A lot of people can relate to that song, especially black women, which is like, why now Just knocks it out of the park. I also, like. I'm looking at the whole song list right here. Yeah, right. Mean to me. Keeping on mischief. Oh, and of course. Yeah. Yacht club. Yacht club shrine. Oh, my God. Stupid and funny. It's so stupid and funny.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. Yeah, it's just bonkers and it. But, like, in the best kind of way, because, again, she's. And Charlene's playing not her actual track and that. She's playing, like, a version of her track in that song. She's playing, like the ultimate girlfriend of the club owner who has absolutely no talent, but she's got confidence up the wazoo.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes. We all know that girl. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I. Tano Buddy's Business was actually the first song I listed as, like, okay, this is where we become. This is where it starts to become the aimless behavior. And everybody knows. Yeah. I mean, the way it opens is. Is lovely, you know, and very charming. And I. This is. I mean, I. So many times my dad and I will, you know, talk to each other on the phone. I'll just, like, I'm saving my love for you and you and you. Oh, hey, Daddy. I don't think you have a truly good relationship with your father unless you answer the phone and go, oh, hey, Daddy. And in fact, I. Back when I did my web series baking it on Broadway, I had Patrice Covington on, and she had done a tour of Amos. Behaven. And we did a little bit of the. And I. And I do the. Oh, hey, Daddy. And she wasn't expecting it. So you can watch her. You can watch her lose her shit. I'm saying, my love for you and you and you. Oh, hey, Daddy. And she just loses it.

[Andre Jordan]

So that's a great number, too, because it's also well done because the way that. That starts is that every character is introduced by one line at a time. And they come out and you present them, you meet them. Interestingly, Charlene is The only one that does not have that in the context of the opening. Everyone else comes out and she does not have a line that introduces her. Everyone.

[Matt Koplik]

She gets introduced by Ken Page. She gets referred to because they come out together sort of in an embrace.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes, but she does. But in a way that's, you know, she's on him, he's on her. They've got sort of constant. But she doesn't sing anything to introduce herself. He sings and then they sort of all sing a little bit and then she has a little thing towards the end. So it also is, I think, a very like, dramaturgical way of also putting her. Us as an audience to remember that she's a little on this or, you know, to have us start to think of her in that way.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, she's. She's the one on the side. And also, I also love Handful of Keys, which is just a melody. It's just a melody that. And then Malpy wrote lyrics for it.

[Andre Jordan]

It is the heart that. That I remember that being like one of the hardest things to learn. A lot of this is very difficult, which. I mean, I was just saying this the other day. I was doing the reading of the Preacher's Wife. Someone brought up that so much in. As a. As a black person, person of color in theater, where you're maybe the only one. You're not really. You know, you're sort of. In this part here, you're only really asked to bring like 14% of what you can really do and what you. What. What can really challenge you. And Amisbehaven is one of those shows where you can be surrounded by other people who know exactly what you're going through and encourage each other to your full potential. Because this. This music is not easy. So if, you know, to. To work on it and to really like. And get it like. Handful of keys, black and blue. Anything that was like with even like the last. The Honeysuckle Band to like, do the music and stuff like that, like, that was just like, oh, this is difficult. But when it.

[Matt Koplik]

There's a lot of different.

[Andre Jordan]

It's like, ah, it's so cool because it is.

[Matt Koplik]

And then, I mean, the communal element of we're all in this together and like, we all have to learn a handful of keys that helps everybody, you know, reach their full potential. But then also on the petty side, because we all are people who love attention. Because everyone gets multiple moments to shine. It's only. Everyone gets like a one song. Everyone gets multiple moments. It's like, oh, I'm listening to Nell. Absolutely. Knock mean to me out of the park I gotta do how you. How you baby. Like just. I gotta. Charlene, like I gotta.

[Andre Jordan]

Setting each other up. He's like, you know what you did that I'm gonna do better. The next person say, you know what you did and I'm gonna. You just keep trying to like, encourage each other to come out and do your best. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Some of the best shows I've seen on Broadway, I have learned after the fact, came from a little bit of pettiness backstage. Not in a mean spirited way, but sort of everyone like knowing their worth and recognizing when other people on stage were getting their roses and being like, well, tonight I get my roses. So everyone would like just sort of come to the stage with fire and we as audiences would benefit because I'm like, oh, I just watched 20 incredibly talented people give me a thousand percent. And I came. And that is.

[Andre Jordan]

That's.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's sort of this. It's like, yes, it's an ensemble piece and everyone has to sort of support each other, but also everyone gets moments to shine. And it's like, no, no, I stopped the show tonight I do it.

[Andre Jordan]

And then.

[Matt Koplik]

And then the benefit is that you all stop the show.

[Andre Jordan]

You all did at one point.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, at one point you all stop the show.

[Andre Jordan]

I like to sing a little tune that's mellow.

[Matt Koplik]

Everyone's personality just keeps coming in and no one ever gets lost. And it all just fit so well.

[Andre Jordan]

God, everyone knows exactly who they are from the beginning to the end of this show. And we're just. We're just watching it all sort of. We're just figuring out for ourselves who these people are and we just get a little bit each time. And because there always is an opportunity, whether you are the one singing the solo or you're with them or duet or something, you're always. There's always an opportunity to inform more about the relationships that are on stage.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, the only time someone will outshine someone else is when it's literally their 1 number. When it's not. When no one else is theirs. Anytime there's a duet or a trio, there's no one who gets like the track. It's. Everyone gets that moment. Like I'm thinking about find out what they like and how they like it. They both like. They. They are bumping and grinding it is it. That is a true blue duet. And I mean how you baby, like that's. That is Andre and Charlene just back and forth with each. I don't know how she didn't knock his teeth out with that.

[Andre Jordan]

I don't.

[Matt Koplik]

Because she is swinging it.

[Andre Jordan]

There's gotta. Hopefully there's. I mean, like. Yes. I want to know if there's gotta be nothing in that purse, because she is. She's not just. She's swinging it, but she's also like. She is. They're both moving.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Andre Jordan]

Through that stage. Like, they're just eating it up and they're just. Oh, and also, like, I love one of my. You know, when you're in, like, the chorus of something, or if you're doing something that's just a dance number and they encourage you, like, you know, have fun. Yeah. Like, make noise and things like that. I always liked in Spice Girls, when they do spice up your life, there's, like, little things that they do in the background. And I think it's probably Jerry that goes. So I always like to throw in an I. If I. If it makes sense. The period piece doesn't. But what Charlene does during her dance break is she just screams. She just. The whole time, she's just at one pitch, screaming. And I'm just like. She's having so much fun. Like, it's. It's hilarious. It's so good.

[Matt Koplik]

There's a kind of. Not that, like. I mean, there's. There's so many comparable situations to this, but, like, as a performer, there's a real joy when you are given a piece of material that allows you to just eat it. And you are exactly, like, in the prime of your talent, in the prime of your ability, and you just can feel. Go for it. It's like. It's a. It's a. I don't know, like, you go to another dimension almost. And that is. That is where both of them are at, but especially her. The way. Again, like, the way she's. Everyone go to YouTube. Watch Andre de Shields and Charlene Woodard do How youw Baby. The song itself might not be separated into its own video, although it should be, but you can watch the. The whole televised production. And it's early on in the production. It's. I think it's after Honeysuckle Rose.

[Andre Jordan]

It's after I Got a Feeling I'm Falling. So it's like. Handful of keys. Gotta feel like. And then. And then how your babe sort of jump starts the. We're in the club because they sing with the band. The whole thing.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Because the way that the show was originally done. And you can't really tell with the televised version because they Kind of redid the design of it and all. But originally on Broadway and then in subsequent replicas, there was sort of a scrim that was down for the first, like. Like 15 to 20 minutes. So you heard the band, but you didn't really see the band. You saw a piano.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

You saw Luther Henderson on the piano and everything was happening in front of the scrim because it was all mostly like stand in sings with little bits of movement, nothing insane. And so for then, when the band began. How you baby. The scrim came up and then the band came forward and Charlene is on the, like, bandstand with them all. Actually, no, I think that is there.

[Andre Jordan]

They do that. And that's. Yeah, she rolls out with it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, she rolls out with it. And then the set is that for the rest of act one and we have this giant open space, so Charlene and. And just mop the floor with my come. It's so good. It's just so. There are certain moments in Dance on Broadway that just like, eat my soul. It's when everyone comes together towards the end of Turkey Lurkey Time.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

It's when Donna McKechnie does her down the line at the end of Music in the Mirror. Yep. It's Charlene and Andre pussy popping in. Amos Behaven. And it's the big catch in the pas de deux in the 94 carousel where Sandra Brown runs, does a giant tumble in the air and gets caught on her back with no spinal cord whatsoever. Those moments give me, you know, Moses. I. I can't. I can't describe it any other way, but it doesn't always have to be like, physically impressive. It's sometimes just like how it fits with the music like this. I mean, obviously we keep talking about the handbag. That thing is the person. It is impressive, but. Yeah, more it's impressive again. I'm just surprised that she didn't knock him the out.

[Andre Jordan]

I know. And there's a lot of dance in this. I mean, everyone has to be able to move in this piece.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Andre Jordan]

I would say that how you babe is only like one with like a dance break. But I mean, anything that they're doing together, especially at the top of show, to really like bring you in, like after they're sort of Amos behaving. Everyone's sort of all over the place. But once we get into like looking good and feeling bad, it's sort of all. There's that we're all bouncing together. It's very regimented, it's very syncopated. But there's a lot of move. Oh. Even in, like, top of spreading rhythm around. I was actually watching them, and they have this, like, grapevine Y2 steppy thing that they're doing, like, back and forth. And I was watching, and I was like, oh, actually, I don't think those steps are the same both ways back. So they're very much like. I know. That was the thing in rehearsal. They were like, let's do it again. 1. Back, side, back, front, step, step, step, back. You know what I mean? Like, when you have to really break down the choreography.

[Matt Koplik]

So.

[Andre Jordan]

And I don't remember who choreographed.

[Matt Koplik]

Whoever was. I know was nominated for a Tony Award. This was one of those situations where they didn't win the most awards that night, just on the technicality of they didn't have an original book or score.

[Andre Jordan]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

That was on the 20.

[Andre Jordan]

Arthur Faria. F A R I. Yeah, I think that's.

[Matt Koplik]

That sounds right.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I know he was nominated, but, I mean, I understand you can only nominate so many people and everyone's featured, but, like, I'm sitting here being like, how was Amelia not nominated? How was Andre not nominated? Like, it should have just been all of them.

[Andre Jordan]

I agree. I mean, they sort of have it, like, throughout Drama desk theater world. Tony. Yeah, everyone got those their moment. Ish. But, yeah, especially when it comes to, like, the Tonys. Come on, y'. All.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I think Ken Page. Was Ken Page nominated for Cats?

[Andre Jordan]

That's a great question, because other say.

[Matt Koplik]

He might not even be a Tony nominee at all.

[Andre Jordan]

What?

[Matt Koplik]

I know. And Armelia's not. I know Amelia is not a Tony nominee, but she also didn't do. She didn't do a lot of Broadway after this. Yeah, she famously. What?

[Andre Jordan]

He's not. He's not. No, he was. No, he was not nominated for a Tony Award.

[Matt Koplik]

Although I think he is. He's the original father in Children of Eden in London. Yes, he is. And he sounds great, but.

[Andre Jordan]

He also. Is that the singing voice. Oh, that's Brian Stoke Mitchell. Never mind.

[Matt Koplik]

Of what?

[Andre Jordan]

I was thinking of Prince of Egypt.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know if he did Prince of Egypt, but I know that Ken Page is the voice of Boogie Oogie Boogie or Boogeyman in Nightmare Before Christmas. Yeah, I mean, he's just lovely. And listen, if you want to understand how powerful Ken Page's voice and presence are, just listen to the addressing of the Cats from Cats, and then listen to Judi Dench do the same thing. One of these things is not Dame Judy Dench Icon. Oscar winner. Tony winner.

[Andre Jordan]

Sure. Ring wearer. Judi Dench.

[Matt Koplik]

We love Judi Dench. She's a fucking icon. Not to drag her down, but to just be honest.

[Andre Jordan]

But just to be honest, one of these. I've also heard one of the nicest, kindest souls walking, like, anyone that's ever done a show with. Ken is what. He's wonderful.

[Matt Koplik]

First of all, with both Ken Page and Judi Dench, those two have done so much in this world that one dig does not even. That does not even make a scratch on the throne. That is their legacy. Truly, I'm. I'm still within. Like, it's like seeing the Mona Lisa at the Louvre. Like, I'm still 10,000ft away from the throne when I say these things.

[Andre Jordan]

Listen, I saw Cats. You're not wrong.

[Matt Koplik]

Did anyone ever see Cats? Everyone just experiences it.

[Andre Jordan]

I got the thing because, you know, Cats is one of my cats. I might have said Cats is actually the reason I'm doing music theater. I discovered Cats is literally, like, what got me up and moving and really wanting to do, like, musical theater. I know that sounds insane. No, not the movie, but, like, the original one.

[Matt Koplik]

But your journey is your journey, Andre, do not. Thank you. You're welcome.

[Andre Jordan]

I like Cats. I know. I like Cats. Very excited to see the movie, and I knew it was not going to be right, you know, But I was like, you know what? It's Cats, and that's okay. I'm just gonna go and see what they did with my show.

[Matt Koplik]

I love your choice of words. You didn't say, I knew it wasn't gonna be good. You said, I knew it wasn't gonna be right.

[Andre Jordan]

It wasn't gonna be right. I knew it, and that's fine. So I went. And so I was like. And I also want to make sure I got in before, like, the new edited version went out or something like that. So I was like, let me get it, and I want to see it now.

[Matt Koplik]

Andre wanted the butthole cut.

[Andre Jordan]

I wanted. I. I signed the petition. I wanted the butthole cut.

[Matt Koplik]

You wanted your cake and to eat it, too.

[Andre Jordan]

Oh, bless it.

[Matt Koplik]

Blessed be. No, I actually have a soft spot for Cats, and you can listen to that episode on the British Invasion series from a little over a year ago. I think there's a lot of Cats that is actually quite good. I think, objectively, there's a lot of awesome music in it. And it's the last time Sir Andy got weird with his composing. Yeah, like, that's a weird melody. And I saw the Original production when I was a supple 10 years old and it was still mind blowing because I'd never seen anything on that scale before, and I don't think I have since. And when Grizabella went to the heavyside layer in the original Broadway production, Andre, that thing did not come from off stage. She was not flown them from the. From the flies. The claw came out of the ceiling of the auditorium over my goddamn stupid child head and fell out of my sleep. But Ken Page. We're talking about Ken page. Oh. Armelia McQueen famously played the Queen of Hearts in the Alice in Wonderland series on Disney.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes. Which I was. That was for me. I loved the alcohol. Anything else in Wonderland? I'm down for it. Cheshire Cat is one of my favorite characters in the zeitgeist of literature. And so like I as a child, I always watched that. I loved it, loved it, loved it, loved it. I loved it together until I did the show and was like, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep, yep, yep. The two things I remember most about that Alice in Wonderland series where there was an episode where they had a pretzel maker and one of the Queen's rings got lost in the pretzel maker. So they basically all had to eat a million pretzels until they could find the ring. And I remember watching that being like, I want a pretzel. But the way that Alice would go into the mirror to go into Wonderland, I don't know if you remember this. It was hand first. Like. Like do a one step in with her hand. And as a gullible, stupid child, many.

[Andre Jordan]

Many, many, many times in the same.

[Matt Koplik]

Way where, like I was four and I saw those Skittles commercials where you planted your skittles and it made a rainbow. I was like, oh, surely that's what happens.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah, I'll just get out of this reality.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And I would do it very. I would do it very slowly. I was like, I must be doing it wrong because she has a very specific way of entering the mirror with her hand.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Never happened. I don't blame Disney. Plus, it should be. I know a lot of it's on YouTube.

[Andre Jordan]

Oh, okay. Work. I'm going to. I'm going to rewatch some of those.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Disney had some interesting 90s shows, but I mean, that's sort of everyone in the cast got. Got success afterwards in different degrees.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Became a TV star and definitely became the most famous. Andre and Ken became staples of theater.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Charlene, I know, would float among all the mediums and always work. Never be at the pinnacle of what she should have been, in my opinion, and I think I agreed. I think Frank Rich even mentions that in his review of the revival. He's like. He's like, I can't tell you if watching Charlene Woodard sing Keeping Out Of Mischief now is just so good because she is that good, or if it's because I'm just sitting here watching going, God damn it, why isn't she a bigger star?

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He says something like that as like, I'm sitting there being like, why are you not like our main leading lady right now?

[Andre Jordan]

Yes. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I will say, Frank Rich, when you read some of Frank Richard's reviews from the 80s and early 90s, for a quite straight man of a position of power from the 80s and 90s, he is. He is about as on the pulse as one could be from that position, from that decade for both, like, not just the black community, but, like, the queer community, everyone. Like, when he's reviewing Falsettos for Broadway, he, like, makes a whole point to be like, this is about people. And this is about how, you know.

[Andre Jordan]

You know.

[Matt Koplik]

He's like, believe it or not, everyone gay people are as flawed as you are. They're as nice as you are, they're as funny as you are, and they also fuck up to, like. One of the things he hated about LA Cage was like. He's like, listen, no one's this martyrdom. Like, the, like, the two main gays of LA Cage, like, they have absolutely no flaws, and I find that kind of boring. He's like. And then we have falsettos. He's like, marvin kind of sucks. He's like, and I love it.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And he talks about that with Dream Girls, too, with, you know, the American Dream and how it's different for the African American community and all this other stuff. And he talks about how he's like, I love in Act 2. And this is back when Act 2 was very different. It didn't open with the Vegas show, it opened with. It opened with the medley. That really doesn't do much, but I love it because I'm a basic person. And then it has the press conference afterwards, right? And he's like, I love that Fame doesn't affect the black characters of Dream Girls any differently than with the white characters. For example, Ms. Jones does not discuss politics because in the original. And I don't words, it's all interchangeable, y'.

[Andre Jordan]

All.

[Matt Koplik]

So just get on board with my tangents. In the original Act 2 opening of Dreamgirls, it opened with, like, five years later. And the Dreams are very successful, and they're doing a medley of their greatest hits, including Family. And they do Move. And it's. It's meant to sort of show you just how far gone they've gone in their sound. So, like, we heard Move at the top of Act 1, and it's Jennifer Holiday wailing. And then we have Sheryl Lee Ralph going, you better move. Yeah, like, very soft, quiet. And then it goes into this press conference, and it's. It's. We get info on the Dreams that. We get info that. No, Dina and Curtis are married. Somehow the press has gotten wind that Laurel is Jimmy's mistress. Like, everyone just knows. They're like, oh, so will he ever leave his wife for you? I'm like, that's pretty open for the late 60s. Yeah. But they mention very casually the Vietnam War. And they're like, Ms. Jones, what are your thoughts on the war? What do you think about the war? And then Curtis just goes, Ms. Jones does not discuss politics, work. And Frank Richards, in his review, he was like, I love that. It's like, fame does not affect black stars any differently than white stars. None of them will ever discuss politics.

[Andre Jordan]

Politics. Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

Very true.

[Andre Jordan]

Which is. I mean, funny that we bring up politics now in the war, because there is a full section in Ain't Misbehaving that is specifically about the war. Like, from. I think, like, you could say, like, ladies who sing with the band because they talk about, like, these. These women that are going away to. To support the boys in blue and sing them. So I think we did, like, Yakkov Swing was, like, for the Navy. And nylon's boom again. Talks about the women that are going away to serve their country. Yeah. And how, like, nylons are actually, remember, like, talking about this with someone because I guess at one point, like, nylons weren't a thing anymore. Or maybe, like, they. They were too expensive because of the war, so they had to switch to a different type. That's how they got, like, wool stocking thing. They didn't like, cash for your trash. And people used to, like, you know, give their cash and their scrap metals to support the movement. So it's funny that there's this. This whole second section that is about, you know, America, you know, or, like, you know, which just proved that Fats Waller also was very political with his music. Right. And, like, how he was interpreting what was going on around him through the lens of. That he was experiencing, you know?

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. I mean, the thing is, like, with uso, Shows and whatnot of that era. It came from a very patriotic place because, you know, World War II, it's, we're going off, we're going to fight the Nazis. It's Brad Pitt and Inglourious Bastards. Let's go kill some Nazis.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it wasn't like Vietnam was the war that made everyone go, like, should we be supporting this? Like, yeah, I want to support the troops, but like, I don't support the war. So, like, what the fuck are we talking about?

[Andre Jordan]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

Speaking of Fats Waller and sort of why it kind of worked that Richard Malpy Jr. Was the director of this. In addition to the fact that he's a talented, smart man with it, with an inherent sense of musical theater. You read some of the reviews, it's either Clive Barnes or maybe it's Walter Kerr who made a point in the review to be like, Fats Waller was a black artist who was very aware that in order to succeed at a certain level, he had to appeal to a white audience.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And the game. Yep. Play in the game. And you know, what made him so unique was able. He was able to hold on to his authentic self while being able to bottle it up for a white audience. And I was very aware of that watching the televised version because I'm looking at the audience for it. Yes, majority white. Like, yes, it's not all white. Definitely majority white. And definitely like the white audience members are at the front for the cameras.

[Andre Jordan]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's a very. I will say, you watch that televised version and it's not that it's like the joy in that room is very authentic. Everyone is truly loving it.

[Andre Jordan]

It.

[Matt Koplik]

And like, and it's a back and forth and it's, it is pure celebration of, of black artistry and joy. But at, but it is something to just to acknowledge that while that is happening, the audience enjoying it the most is majority white.

[Andre Jordan]

Correct. Well, it's also, I mean, that's, that's the case then. It was the case when Fats was writing the music. And I thought about this too when I was watching it recently. The, the, the bite and power that this has because the people in this show, at least the show that was happening, what, 78. So everyone in that production and in that audience might have some remembrance. You know, it's. It's still culturally and timeline wise, close to when that music was happening. Right. So it's like you can think of, like this being like the Aunt Juliet of that time where the people that were buying tickets are like, I remember that song, or.

[Matt Koplik]

I remember it. Absolutely.

[Andre Jordan]

So they're so the. So, like, you know, Charlene and Andre and Ken and Amelia and Nell, they're all able to really. They're like, oh, this was. I know. I know what this is. I know what the story is. I know what my ancestors might be. Were going through at this time, who they were as people. But then also the white aunt is the same sort of way. Like, oh, I remember I used to hear this on the radio. Or, oh, this. This just brings back these memories to me. And that's. And that's okay. And that's safe. And then you. You drive them home with something like Black and Blue, where you have. You do have to let them sit with something that is a little bit uncomfortable for them. You know what I mean? So it's. And that. That I think is also very genius. You can't let that. To not let the whole night go by without acknowledging that part. Yeah. Sort of like what you said too, about if you were thinking, but thematically about what. What fame looks like on a different side or what it looks like when you come up, you know, with a little bit of money and how that still is, like, not the same for you as a black person that it is for other people. And. And just. Just talking about that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, there's a. I feel like there's this sort of secret to Amos behaving that not everyone taps into. And it's part of what makes it so beloved on both ends of the spectrum is that it's not an angry show. And it could very easily be one.

[Andre Jordan]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So it's not these black artists shouting at the white audience like, we are reclaiming this music for ourselves, but it's more sort of them kind of cheekily saying, oh, you like, you dumb people, this was never yours to begin with, but we'll let you enjoy it.

[Andre Jordan]

But sure, yeah, come on to the party if you want.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, come to the party. But this is like, yeah, this isn't your house. But yeah, come to the party. You're like, you're more than welcome to stop by, but this is not your house.

[Andre Jordan]

And the same undertone that Fats had when he was making his music and repackaging it for the white audience, like, they just did the same. And I think that it sounds to me that in the. In the making of this musical, everyone kept that in mind, like, how, let's make this a celebration, but also the secret that we all know that they don't know, that we need to always have in Our mind that they'll read is that this really isn't. This is about us. It's not really.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, absolutely. But. But because there's a confidence that can come when you know that you don't have anything to lose. Like.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You know where it's. It's. It's not anger, because it feels like the artist never thought that the music was lost, that the art was lost. It's like, no, we've always had it.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, we've always had it. You've thought for years that it was yours, but, like, we've always known. So we're not going to be angry about it because, like, what's there to be angry about? It's like, it's never left my pocket.

[Andre Jordan]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, I can't be angry that you stole something when I know for a fact that's always in there. And that's not how everyone feels about that era and. Right. Rightly so. But I think because it is specifically about Fats Waller, it's about that community and that genre and that moment of history. It's not about re, because it's not about reclaiming Celebration. That's why it's more joy than it is anger. And people gravitate towards joy more often in general. Something that I kind of had issues with with a couple of shows this season that eventually closed was like, the artists involved when the shows were struggling, basically, like, took to social media to be like. And not actually. Not even just shows a movie or two as well. That was like, come see my art, because otherwise you're problematic. And I'm like, I don't know what doesn't get an audience into a seat. Telling them that they're not going to enjoy what you made, but they should see it. I'm like, no, tell them they're going to enjoy it.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah, like, that sounds a little backwards. Yeah. That doesn't really sound like.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like, yeah, the one. I won't mention all this.

[Andre Jordan]

I know which movie you're mean.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Andre Jordan]

I know which one you're talking about.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Mr. Eichner. Mr. Eichner drew an ass where he was like, see bros or your homophobic? I'm like, that's the last way to get someone to come see bros.

[Andre Jordan]

It's just not how you do it.

[Matt Koplik]

Fucking funny. I think you'll have a good time.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

That's all. That's all.

[Andre Jordan]

It's like. Yeah. I was going to go into a Megan tangent, but I haven't seen Megan. Yeah, I haven't Seen it.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm going on.

[Andre Jordan]

I'm going on Sunday. I'm going to Sunday.

[Matt Koplik]

But that's sort of what's made Megan, you know, the Doll from Hell, such a surprise hit. Is everyone just being like, no, it's so much fun. Fun, yeah. Like that. That's what does it. I mean, even so, like, I'm trying to think of, like, a show that is, quote, unquote, like, important, that still has done well.

[Andre Jordan]

I think we also. I mean, I thought about this earlier, but we always sort of skip over it because I. I sort of put them together in a way just because usually they're generally like shows that I go in for. But Smokey Joe's Cafe is a review show from, like, that also. So it does this thing that a misbehaving does.

[Matt Koplik]

Right.

[Andre Jordan]

It sets up music of a time. There are. It's not just an all black, but it is definitely like a representation of. Of what life was sort of like then. Because it is very much like a celebration of that music. I mean, that time was not great for everybody, right? Yeah, but it's still. It still manages to. To set that. Set up the music and set up these people and let them experience, express what that. What the time was like in the music was like with. Without doing too much of having the audience have to necessarily wrestle with anything. Because that's not really what Smokey Joe's is about, you know?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's sort of. Yeah, it's so funny you say that. So I was about two years ago, I was, quote, unquote, hired. I say hired. There's no contract, there's no payment. And because of neither, I eventually left the project pretty soon after. But I was brought onto this project for this gentleman who will remain nameless, older gentleman, very. Who had been a successful real estate lawyer all of his life, but over the years had dabbled in writing music, jazz music. In quotes, I will say, okay, like, the. And he wrote all these songs about New York and whatever. And he'd written a musical at one point. And when he, like, hit 70, he was like, I'm. He's like, I'm done with the real estate law. I made my money, but I wanna. I wanna be known as a composer now. So he, like, use all of his connections, all of his money to kind of promote himself as a composer. And he, like, has done well with the Boca Raton crowd because his music's very easily listening. But he wanted to turn his catalog of songs into a streaming show and wanted to be about new York and I, he sat me down and he had, and I was told he had an idea, he had no idea. He had songs and a life. And so we sat down, he's like telling me about his life and he goes, would you agree that New York is. We used to be better than it is right now? Meanwhile, like we're like less than a year into Covid. Like we just got the vaccine, but only like essential workers are getting it.

[Andre Jordan]

Huh.

[Matt Koplik]

So like New York is. It's got legs, but it's like aerial after she gets her legs. Like they're there, they're.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes, we keep falling down, but we're still not speaking, right?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, we're not speaking, we're not speaking. Legs are wobbly. Like within a few minutes we'll be standing upright. But so. And I'm like, well, I'm like, I'm sure in a lot of ways, yes, it was, it was a more romantic time. You know, everyone was eating indoors. I was like, but it wasn't great for everyone. I said, I think in a lot of ways New York is probably better now for many people that it wasn't great for when you were sort of in your prime. He's like, huh, I never thought of it that way. And I was like, of course you.

[Andre Jordan]

Didn'T, of course you didn't. Why would.

[Matt Koplik]

Meanwhile he wrote music that like, God, he wanted this love letter to, to New York City with jazz music that I can only describe as the music that Emma Stone talks about in La La Land of like, I don't know, I think of jazz, I think of like that radio station my parents put on in the background for dinner parties. And I'm like, yeah, that's. That is what this guy wrote.

[Andre Jordan]

That's that.

[Matt Koplik]

And when I brought up Lala and to him he was like, yeah, I hate it. I'm like, you can hate it, but you want a musical about a city that's not very romantic right now with music that you think is old fashioned. Whatever you thought of La La Land, it did all of that and made half a billion dollars. So like at the very least watch it and be like, what connected with the 10 people that gave a 10 a billion dollars? Just things to think about. But yeah, like it's, it is like this is a man who saw Amos behaven and was like, ah, love this music. This is the music that I. Of my era. And I'm like, and, and, and that. And it's Nell Carter being like, you dumb, dumb. I mean like. And thank you for the Price of your admission. Thank you.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm so glad I have your money now.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes. Because that's gonna take me to tell.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, it's like I. It's like, in a weird way, like, theater is this interesting exchange. Right. Where it's like audiences think that they deserve the world for the money that they pay. In a lot of ways, like, yes, you come in, you give the money, and you want something special out of it.

[Andre Jordan]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

But in a lot of other ways, the advantage is purely from the storytelling perspective because it's like, I got your money and I got your attention for the next two and a half hours. Like, I come out of this on top no matter what.

[Andre Jordan]

No matter what.

[Matt Koplik]

No matter what. And that's sort of like kind of the Dom. Topness of being an 8. Misbehaving, I want to say, where it's like. It's like, oh, I know that you and your. And your father thought that this. This music is yours, but, like, it's not. And I. And I now have your hard earned money and your attention for the next two and a half hours. I come out as a king. I've. I have pegged you, sir. I have pegged you hard.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes. And like, I honestly like for. To be in like, a position where, like, you know, with like, where Nell was or where or anyone was that was sort of still working really hard to get to a place where they could just be in a room where they felt safe enough to really be themselves. And for that. That thing to also, like, happen so quickly, to, like, really move their careers along, like.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah.

[Andre Jordan]

Ask for, like, a better blessing than that. To be a part of something, to build something that is standing the test of time the way it is that people have such a wonderful reaction to and that people, like, you know, we're still talking about it and we know that we can deconstruct its importance of what it was like then, what it's like now, how it's changed. Has it changed? You know, it's. It's so like, that's. I think that's the dream for any. Any storyteller is to be a part of something that has that type of effect on people.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely, absolutely. It's also interesting looking at Amos behaving as it kind of comes towards the end of the 70s, which is a decade where. So are you familiar of when Purr Bailey went into hello Dolly?

[Andre Jordan]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Huge cultural moment. And like, one of the few times a replacement performer got a special Tony Award.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

The downside is that Broadway took the wrong messaging from Pearl Bailey and that cast doing hello Dolly. Less of like, oh, look what happens when we let talented black artists soar. And like, let's start creating more vehicles for them. It became white producers going like, oh, there's a black demographic we haven't tapped into yet for. For money. So let's. Let's keep doing. So then we got like an all black Guys and Dolls. And there's another one that they did that. And we get Pearly, which is, you.

[Andre Jordan]

Know, was that before Pearly? Because the first all black Bailey.

[Matt Koplik]

Pearl Bailey did hello Dolly before Pearly.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah. So she. She literally. Yeah, she.

[Matt Koplik]

She set it all up because there had been, you know, there had been black excellence on Broadway. We had Diane Carroll and no Strings. We had Leslie about. And Hallelujah Baby, but those weren't like, no Strings was sort of like a soft hit and Hallelujah Baby wasn't really a hit.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah. You know, I love Hallelujah Babylon. I love it. I love it. I love it.

[Matt Koplik]

The one Tony Julie Stein ever won, which is so crazy to think about. No, it's a good. No, it's a good score, but it's not.

[Andre Jordan]

I mean, like, you ask anybody, like, you know, any of the kids coming up now, like, you never heard of Hallelujah Baby, they'll be like, what?

[Matt Koplik]

It's the only musical to win best musical after having closed, which is. Yeah, well, I guess you could also count Moulin Rouge, but Moulin Rouge was just sleeping.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because they're back.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, are they really, though? Like, if. If you weren't alive to begin with, can you really come back from the dead? So anywho. Yeah, like, with Pearl Bailey, we then get Pearly and we get the Wiz and All Black Guys and Dolls, which launches Ken Page, the Wizard. The Wiz is the first musical to really get the message from Pearl Bailey and hello Dolly. And the key is that the Wiz was an all black creative team. And it wasn't about trying to monetize a black audience. It was just about taking a story that everyone knew and reclaiming it for that audience and with its own imagination and flavor and history. And it. It became another move, another moment, another movement. And same thing is true of Ain't Misbehaving. And those are like the three moments of the 70s in a sea of shows that tried to do the same thing, but again from a purely like, oh, this makes money. Let's try to do what they did. And it just never clicking as much. The Best thing I can say about Pearly is that it gave us Melba Moore's I Got Love, which is, you know. I know.

[Andre Jordan]

Talking I never heard before.

[Matt Koplik]

Never and never again shall we Never again shall we. Oh, God.

[Andre Jordan]

I have that record. I have that album. I got it at a. At a store that has like, you know, that does used records, things like that. And I found it one day and I was like, oh, I'm taking this home with me.

[Matt Koplik]

I've. There are two Tony performances where I shout through my computer screen, why are none of you standing? The one is Jay. Is Jennifer Holiday and Dream Girls to their credit. I have a feeling that audience was just so stunned because, like, you watch there's. There's. There's some white woman at the front and you just see her like, fan herself. I'm like, yeah, okay. I'm like, yes, you're. You're winded. Okay.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah, she's with it. Yeah, she just. She knows she's on tv, so she doesn't want to make. She don't want anybody to look at her.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Melville Moore in Pearly. It's the same year as applause. And I think Coco. And I'm like, you assholes sat for Katherine Hepard's non singing and Bonnie Franklin being cute, doing a decent song from applause. And you do not stand and bend over for Melba Moore. Not bow down. Bend over.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes, because she's giving it to you.

[Matt Koplik]

She is. So you know like how Evan Hansen's whole tagline is, you will be found. I think aimless behavior when it comes back in the eventual revival is Amos behaven. You will be pegged.

[Andre Jordan]

You.

[Matt Koplik]

We will make you sing.

[Andre Jordan]

And honestly, we're in such.

[Matt Koplik]

The.

[Andre Jordan]

The talent that is. That is the, the black theater talent right now that's happening on Broadway in the region. Like the, the, the. The people that are right now in the mix of things. I mean, you could really turn out an incredible. I mean like, you give me like Tiffany Mann, Ambry Mann, I'm telling you, Antoine Smith, you get them to like, I'm telling you. And you could run this thing and rotate them out and get the standbys of your life. But like this, you could really do something.

[Matt Koplik]

It's there. Andre, you do not. I'm sorry, Andre, you do not say Amber Iman to me and then just walk away or I'm blanking on her name. She was in Prince of Broadway. She sang Will He Like Me and she sang Cabaret in Prince of Broadway. God damn it. This is gonna piss me Off. This is killing me because I. I talk about once again getting pregnant. Like, I did not enjoy Prince of Broadway all that much. I did walk out being like, okay, get this, like, five vehicles tomorrow. Oh, she also did the showboat sequence, of course, because they had to do showboat because it was Hal Prince. Okay. Brianna Marie Parham.

[Andre Jordan]

Rihanna Marie.

[Matt Koplik]

I think that's B, R, Y, O, N, H, A. I want to say it's Brianna. That's how you pronounce it. I apologize if I'm fully butchering her name. And if. And if anyone knows exactly how to pronounce it, let me know, because this woman stole my uterus. It's also an After Midnight and Gershwin's Porky and Bass. Yeah, we know. It's in her. It's in her DNA. She knows how to do this. Yeah, get her in there as well. They're like the. The talent, as you and I both know. It's insane. It's out there.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I understand through the grapevine that they are trying to get Camille A. Brown to helm a production of it, which would be. Yeah, that would be interesting. I. I've only seen Camille's work in For Colored Girls once on this island. And Choir boy.

[Andre Jordan]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So I would love to see. Oh, actually, no. And I also saw she also ain't.

[Andre Jordan]

You proud on my trip. And that was Sergio.

[Matt Koplik]

That was Sergio. Which, like, that's. That goes in the Jersey Boys, like, Motown of sort of like it. That style of dance is all kind of one thing. I think I want to say that Camille did also something at Encores, like maybe Cabin in the sky or maybe it was. It wasn't Cotton Club because that was Warren Carlisle. But I feel like I saw her do one more thing. I would like to see her do something like this. Where it is. It is similar from, like, to once on this island where it's. It feels organic and improvisational, but it is a little more structured in a kind of old school style. I would like to see her. I would like to see that style from her. Just because she is currently one of my favorite choreographers right now. Her and Stephen Hoggett are the two where I'm like, anything. They do part of reason I'm seeing Sweeney. I'm like, what are they going to give Hoggett? They're like, hoggett's doing the choreography. I'm like, and what's that going to look like?

[Andre Jordan]

What's that going to look like? You were right about her doing Cabin in the Sky. She did do Cabin in the. In the sky.

[Matt Koplik]

I am a freak of nature. I don't know how my brain works. Where did that. Where did that come from?

[Andre Jordan]

I don't know, but that was, like, 2015.

[Matt Koplik]

You just like, yeah, I saw that. I saw Lachanza, Norm Lewis do that show. I mean, that show is bonkers. But I remember because, like, I remember he plays. I think he plays God. And they're both, like, trying to get Lachanze to be good or bad, but they're not talking to her directly. So, like, Lachanz is just sort of living her life. And they're like, like, be good. Lachanze no be bad. And she's like, I'm going about my daily life.

[Andre Jordan]

I'm just gonna sing this song.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's. It's. It's. It's. It was crazy. But, yeah, I would. I would. I'd be very interested to see that. I mean, also, I mean, maybe it's because of the Shuffle Along. I would love to see George C. Wolf helm this. I. I. Because that man hasn't done a show that's, like, pure joy in a very long time.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And also, like, I. I don't know.

[Andre Jordan]

I.

[Matt Koplik]

There are some directors where I'm like, we haven't had a work of theirs in so long. And everyone's like, it's been two years. I'm like, that's too long.

[Andre Jordan]

That's too long. Especially when there's some directors that are out here every season.

[Matt Koplik]

So like, sometimes twice a season.

[Andre Jordan]

Sometimes twice a season. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, there's. Yeah, years are too long.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, I'm sorry. I'm so. I know John Mantello hasn't done anything since he was afraid of Virginia Woolf. Closed in previews because of COVID It. We have now. We are now in the middle of our second Broadway season, and I have not had a Mantello.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I find that a hate crime.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah. Homophobic.

[Matt Koplik]

George C. Wolf. What's he so busy doing? I mean, I'm sure a lot. He's a very brilliant man. He's always working on something.

[Andre Jordan]

But, oh, no.

[Matt Koplik]

You know what?

[Andre Jordan]

He.

[Matt Koplik]

No. He did the Ma Rainey movie, which is like, okay, fine, whatever. But. No, give me something in the theater, please.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

My hot take is, I would have preferred to see his piano lesson instead of latonya's, but whatever, it's fine. I'm not going to complain when Noah Kiss Wilson is on Broadway. I just would have liked a set that didn't immediately look haunted.

[Andre Jordan]

Fair Enough.

[Matt Koplik]

Have you seen. Have you seen Piano Lessons?

[Andre Jordan]

I didn't see it and I'm. No. Because then Death of a Salesman. Close. The Piano Lesson is still open, I think.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Piano Lesson is still open. Death of a Salesman was another one where I've that one. My complaint of that one was it was just very British. Like, I watched that show. I was like, oh, you are in English company or not worry about an English production team hacking in American work. But Piano Lesson. Are you familiar with the play at all?

[Andre Jordan]

Ish. Not really. I'm familiar with more. Other of them.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's one of Wilson's weirdest because it deals with the supernatural a little bit, but part of it is. Part of the tension of the show is like, when they talk about seeing ghosts in the house, you don't know if it's for real or not because you're just like. You're in a living room and you're like, I don't know what's beyond these walls. And that actually kind of makes it sort of scary. Like when you go down a sort of darkened hallway or like someone walks off to the next room, you don't know what's going to happen to them.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

This curtain comes up on the set for this Piano Lesson and you're like, oh, that's a haunted house. And I'm. And it kind of bugged me because I was like, I'm like, well, now the tension's gone because then when Danielle Brooks is like. It's like, I saw how it goes. I'm like, I believe you.

[Andre Jordan]

I believe you.

[Matt Koplik]

I fully believe.

[Andre Jordan]

I thought too.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Sometimes they'll, like, have, like, little moments of, like, a movement behind because they're like. They don't show any. They don't have any walls. It's all, like, beams. So you see into all the different rooms. The lighting is all purple and blue. And sometimes, like, Daniel Brooks will, like, would do something with her arms. It's like she encountered her spirit. And I'm like, yeah, no, you can. Yeah, you're seeing the other dimension. That's. I get it. So when everyone's like, I don't believe you, I'm like, I. I do. I saw Goody Proctor with the devil.

[Andre Jordan]

It's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's very. That. Ah, whatever. It's closing soon and it'll be fine. But, yeah, that's to say. George C. Wolf. Yeah, I would like to see. His name is Behaving. Who. Who. Give me some other people you like to see in this show.

[Andre Jordan]

Oh, gosh. What's his name? Q. What is. I always. I always blank on Quentin's last name because I just call him Q. He was in the Ragtime revival.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah. He was in Once on the Silent, too.

[Andre Jordan]

Once on a silent. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Q, don't listen to this, because he also did. He was a part of the Preacher's Wife, but he was. I think he was. He was unable to do it with us this time, for whatever reason. Unfortunately, he had Quentin Earl Darrington. That's his name. Fantastic. Like, I think he's really incredible. Andre Jordan, I hear, is available to do it and would be great as experience has experience. That's the thing. Like, any. Like, I know so many of my friends that have done this show before, that's so in their bodies, under their belt, you know, because it is one of those shows that, you know, as a black person, if it's in a season, you know, you've got a pretty good chance of getting at least one of the two, you know, or one of the three roles versus just one. So. And then you do it once, and it's like, you know, you. Your people trust you to know how to.

[Matt Koplik]

It's kind of like the Marvelous Wonderettes. Once you've done it, a lot of regional theaters, like, oh, you've done it. Great. Rehearsal time will be half the time now because, you know, the show.

[Andre Jordan]

We're just gonna.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Andre Jordan]

Go through it.

[Matt Koplik]

I know that I can't actually be in the show, but whoever gets the Charlene Woodard track if they need a bimbo consultant, yeah, I'm happy to come in and be the bimbo consultant.

[Andre Jordan]

Well, when I did it, that's why I met Britt Mack from six. So I did it. I was Andre, and she was the Charlene track. Yeah. So we did how you babe Together. And she. She was hilarious. And so, so, so, so, so great. And actually, the last time I auditioned for it, her and I were both in callbacks for it.

[Matt Koplik]

Dreams.

[Andre Jordan]

So she.

[Matt Koplik]

That's dreams.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I mean, because this show really does require its performers to do all of it. Even the ones that are tracks are, like, not necessarily as dance heavy as the Andre track. Like, there. As you were saying, like, there is very specific movement. You have to have a flow. You can't just get away with being like, oh, I. I don't move, but I sing really well. It's like, well, okay. No, you got to move well.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And you have to be funny and heartbreaking, like, and you have to be organic and natural on Stage. Because it's. It's the kind of performing where, yes, you do, you know, mug for the audience sometimes, but a lot of it is just sort of being naturally you yourself.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes. And that's what makes it exciting. Like, what are you. What can you bring to it? There's so much room and brevity to just be yourself in this so that it's. It's very, like, it's sort of a freeing thing, you know?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Oh, I forgot. Before we end, we should take one more break with you.

[Andre Jordan]

How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top.

[Matt Koplik]

You're a Coolidge dollar. And we're back.

[Andre Jordan]

This is why people have producers to remind them, like, hey, we have to. We have to. You want to be.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Nicole Byer literally has her producer on all of her recordings of her. Because if it. If it were up to Nicole, they would just keep talking.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I. I also. I. I take my non. Suckers from Nicole where she was like. And on that note. Which is like, not any note.

[Andre Jordan]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And then I experienced a major trauma. She's like, and on that note.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah, we're gonna.

[Matt Koplik]

It's great. I love it so much. But, yeah, I prefer to say the break breaks before. Before going into it. Otherwise it just comes out of nowhere.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So if someone wants to do this show or actually, no, before. I'm doing that for the casual listener of this podcast. Maybe he's like, you know, I. I liked it when Matt talked about Rent. I knew Rent. I don't really know anyone's behaving.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

How would you pitch this show to someone who's like, maybe I'll look into it. I don't know. Like, how would you.

[Andre Jordan]

What.

[Matt Koplik]

What would be Andre Jordan's words to say? Dum dum, get to stepping and get to the show.

[Andre Jordan]

I would say Dum dum. You have to watch it. Because, I mean, I would say, first of all, it's so easy to watch. You just go on YouTube right now and watch the whole thing. Like, it's easy to find, and it's a great recording of that production. You're gonna see stars in the making that, you know, hadn't gotten their start yet that it just, like, propels them. It's a celebration of black music, and it's a party, and it's. It's also very heartfelt. So I would. I literally just, like, I would. I would just call it, like, it's just a full celebration of this man's music. And it's worth listening to because you learn a little bit. But you mostly just have a really. And you're just. You're going to be entertained no matter what. It's a very entertaining show. So definitely check it. You should. You should watch it. 100.

[Matt Koplik]

You should watch it. But once you start, you're going to be so happy.

[Andre Jordan]

You did. You are. Yes. And it's gonna hook. It's gonna hook you right in. It's gonna hook you right on in. And that's.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't want anyone to think that this is homework. Like, it's not.

[Andre Jordan]

And I'll tell people, too, because this is also thing that people like. No, it moves. So don't worry. Like, you'll. It. The. The show just keeps clipping along.

[Matt Koplik]

And the televised version is a bit shorter than the show itself. They cut a couple of numbers. I know. They cut Squeeze Me in the Jitterbug Waltz.

[Andre Jordan]

Oh, yes, you're so right. I didn't even. I didn't even put that together. Yes, they did.

[Matt Koplik]

I have a father who has seen this show so many times. I. Andre, I cannot. My father. I've said this before, and he'll be mad at me if he hears this, but my father is the gayest straight man alive. Just like this. This is a man who came to New York for a week with his girlfriend in 2011 while I was in college and tried calling me while I was in class. And I was in class, and then I got like a million texts from him just being like, call me back, call me back, call me back. And I run out of class and I call my go, dad, what's wrong? He goes, oh, nothing's wrong. Margaret and I saw Follies last night. I wanted to compare notes with you.

[Andre Jordan]

Oh, my gosh. Compared notes.

[Matt Koplik]

That's my daddy.

[Andre Jordan]

I love that someone like, oh, my God, there's a reviewer here because he's writing, but really was just your dad.

[Matt Koplik]

It was just my dad writing down his thoughts on Jan Maxwell. Oh, hey, Daddy. Yeah. No, my father loves this show, so I know it pretty well. And his. So his favorite moment. He's got a lot of favorite moments he loves. In Honeysuckle Rose, when Nell Carter refers to her boob as her cup. And it's always like the small details that we always remember. But he. What he loves is the very end when they all are instruments and eventually come together. Clarinet, saxophone. And just it blows into this orgy of sound and it's. Yeah, just.

[Andre Jordan]

It's not your classical Closing number.

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[Andre Jordan]

And it's like, it sort of gives you this great. Where you're really just acknowledging the music. It's really. And that's the thing that's like, don't forget it's all just about this man and his. Or in the way that this sound that he created. So we're going to leave you with that sound fully and then that's how you're going to. You're going to walk out of here with that 1000%.

[Matt Koplik]

I. Yeah, it's. I mean it is the gold standard of reviews for sure. Still untouched. Nothing comes at it with a, with a 10 foot pole. I don't want to call it a bio jukebox musical because it is. While it's a celebration of Fats, it's not about him really.

[Andre Jordan]

I would definitely call it a solid review show.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And. And one of those best musical winners where it's like, like everyone who knows it understands why it won.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And fully is in agreement of why it won.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But there. I know there are like some esoteric people out there who are very big on like on the 20th century because of its like operetta like score and John Column and all that. On the 20th century. I like the score, but it is a show that I'm always watching. Always, not always watching. Anytime I have watched on the 20th century, I watch and I'm like, I feel like I should be loving this. I'm kind of just liking it.

[Andre Jordan]

It. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Whereas Amos Behaven. You go on thinking, like, I think I'll like this. And you walk out and go, no, I fully love that.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah. I loved this. My. It's probably one of my grandma's favorite shows that she ever came to see me in. And she has seen me do every, every single show I've done she's been able to come to. So. And it's up there at the top of her favorites. Her second favorite is when I did Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat with Clay Aiken and Kayala Setup at the Algonquin Playhouse.

[Matt Koplik]

You didn't do a hair flip when you said that. There it is. Bam.

[Andre Jordan]

She loved it. Oh my God.

[Matt Koplik]

What's not to love?

[Andre Jordan]

I mean, I, I love it. I love love too. It's one of my absolute. I've done Joseph three times, but like that was a very special production. Who have you played in Joseph the first time. That was the first time I did and I played Gad. The second time I did it, I played Dan. And then the last time I played it, I played Zebulun.

[Matt Koplik]

Does that be. Does he do Canaan Days?

[Andre Jordan]

So actually, every time I've done it, it's sort of been different. So like, Zebulun didn't. I didn't have a solo as Zebulun when I did it the last time. But canon Days is. It's always a different brother because I played Dan, but I sang Benjamin Calypso, which is usually what. What is his name sings. Shoot. And just.

[Matt Koplik]

I know there's like 12 brothers.

[Andre Jordan]

There's too many.

[Matt Koplik]

Too many brothers.

[Andre Jordan]

That's your name, but you're not going to sing the traditional song that that brother sings just because we want to flip the names around for funsies. So.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Talk about a show that is. Well, no, I guess I don't think that shows necessarily in desperate need of a revival.

[Andre Jordan]

I don't think so either.

[Matt Koplik]

No, no, I. It would be. I would like to see a fun concert of it. I know they did one, but I didn't. I didn't go to see it. You know what I need? I need audio when. Of when the Vosk did it at Muni. That's what I need. Can you imagine what the Vosk sounded on?

[Andre Jordan]

I saw some clips on Twitter. I saw some things on Twitter.

[Matt Koplik]

There's on. Well, I don't have Twitter.

[Andre Jordan]

Oh, fair enough.

[Matt Koplik]

I just. I just have insta. I'm a visual learner.

[Andre Jordan]

I hear that. Yep. Yep. Well, you get all the. All the bootlegs and all the clips and the audio. Audio share files are all on Twitter. The theater Twitter community is serious.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I know. Oh, I know they are. I tend to go to YouTube to find my bootlegs, but lately I've been on a wicked K hole just listening to all the different versions of Adina in previews when work. When she was just confident and healthy and great.

[Andre Jordan]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

What a stupid I am. All right, Andre, before we close up, we have a game.

[Andre Jordan]

Oh, yes. Let's play.

[Matt Koplik]

It's the same game. It's two games and it's the same game. They just have two different names.

[Andre Jordan]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

They're both essentially Six Degrees of.

[Andre Jordan]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

The first is called Six Degrees of Sally Murphy, who is an actress that I love very dearly.

[Andre Jordan]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm sure you don't know her. It's fine. Her main credits are. She was Julie Jordan in the Audra Carousel.

[Andre Jordan]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

She plays Sally, the coked out comatose drug addict in the Lachiusa Wild Party.

[Andre Jordan]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

She's Sidle in the Fiddler on the Roof with Alfred Molina, which famously had very few Jews.

[Andre Jordan]

Huh.

[Matt Koplik]

She's the sister in August, Osage County. That's the cousin who you find out is the half brother.

[Andre Jordan]

Wow. Oh, yeah, she works.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, she works all the time. She was just in downstate of Playwrights Horizons.

[Andre Jordan]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

She was in the Minutes and Linda Vista last season. She also. What was the other thing she did? She. She was in Grapes of Wrath. She did. She was in the original Off Broadway man of no Importance. She was the original woman who sang Princess. Yeah. She was in Bernarda Alba with Felicia Rashad. She was Amalia. She's Amalia. No one ever thinks lustful thoughts of you.

[Andre Jordan]

I love Michael John Lacuse.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, it's not. Well, there's a lot not to love, but I love.

[Andre Jordan]

I'm a big fan of his work.

[Matt Koplik]

Point is, that's Six Degrees of Sally Murphy. The second game is called who Lives, who Dies. Janine Tesori, which is just Six Degrees of Ginny Tesori.

[Andre Jordan]

I love Ginny Desori is actually my favorite contemporary composer.

[Matt Koplik]

Andre. She is her baby boo boo child. That is. That shouldn't be a hot take, but it is the correct take.

[Andre Jordan]

Thank you. She is, hands down, my favorite musical of all time is Caroline or Change. And Shrek the Musical has paid my bills 20 times over. Like, it's. She's everything. And I just saw Kimberly Akimbo twice because I saw up the Atlantic and I saw it again on Sunday, and it's gotten better. It's perfect.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure has. I saw the Atlantic and loved it there. And then I saw it in November, and. Yeah, only got better. And it's all that. All that they did is they just kind of trimmed it a bit. They sharpened it a bit. I know the Act 1 finale is a new song, but it's the same scene. Mosley is just tightening, and, like, they shaved off 10 minutes, and it's perfect.

[Andre Jordan]

I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

I look at that. I can't really.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes. I love their merch. I love that color. It's so, so sad.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't like the logo, but I love the merch because, like, I love the blue. It's all. It's all fine. A friend of mine works on the marketing team for it. He's like, remember when you told me you hated the. The logo? I'm like, I still do. I just love all the merch. So anyway, we have to do six degrees of Janine Tesori, and we have to do six degrees of Sally Murphy because, you know, Mr. Sorry. And what we do is we have to go from Aimless Behavior to Janine Tesori.

[Andre Jordan]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

You can use the entire original company of Ain't Miss Behavior. You can use the original production team, and you have to find ways through credits to get the Janine to Sorri. I think I. I actually have found one.

[Andre Jordan]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

While we were talking, I'll. I'll help you. I'll help get you halfway there.

[Andre Jordan]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Nell Carter.

[Andre Jordan]

Huh.

[Matt Koplik]

Was back on Broadway in the mid-90s in a revival of Annie where she played Ms. Hannigan.

[Andre Jordan]

Huh.

[Matt Koplik]

Do you know who the star to be was in that production?

[Andre Jordan]

In that one, who the star to be was? Okay. Okay. So this is 90. What?

[Matt Koplik]

97, I think 7. She would go on to win a Tony Award about five years later.

[Andre Jordan]

Is it Jane Krakowski? No.

[Matt Koplik]

Good guess, though. Think more Tappity tap, flappity flap.

[Andre Jordan]

It wasn't Sutton. It was. Was it. Was it Sutton Foster, start of E.

[Matt Koplik]

And so what's our connect? So. And from Sutton Foster, we can get to check the musical Shrek or Millie or Violet. Those two just constantly work together. We love to see.

[Andre Jordan]

Wow.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Andre Jordan]

I don't think I knew that that was her.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, now you know. Now you know. Well, that's why. It's partly why the Star to Be is considered such, like, a blessed track. Because Lori Beachman, original narrator of Joseph, was the original star to be.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Sutton did the 90s revival, and then Andrew McArdle did the TV movie.

[Andre Jordan]

Huh.

[Matt Koplik]

So it's considered a blessed track.

[Andre Jordan]

It really is. All right.

[Matt Koplik]

So that's how we got to Tesori.

[Andre Jordan]

That was fun.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm sure there are other ones we could do, but that's. I think that's the best one. All right, Sally Murphy, this is where I'm gonna. Okay. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try. I'm. I think. I'm sure I can do it.

[Andre Jordan]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, you know what? No, I can do it. But this one. This one's easy, but I'm gonna. I'll do the easy one and see if I can do a harder one.

[Andre Jordan]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Richard Walpy Jr. Directed the original Amos Behaven. He wrote the lyrics for Miss Saigon, which was directed by Nicholas Heitner, who directed the Audra Carousel with Sally Murphy. Now that's. That's an easy one. I want to see if I can find a more interesting credit for Sally. Do we. Do we want to try to get to Bernard Alba?

[Andre Jordan]

Can you get there from Ken page 10.

[Matt Koplik]

Page to Bernard Alba. Okay, here we go. Let's. Let us see, shall we? Let's go. Okay. Ken Page was in Cats, Huh? With Terence Mann.

[Andre Jordan]

Huh?

[Matt Koplik]

Who was in. Okay, we're gonna get there. We're gonna get there. We're gonna get there. We are. I'm going to get. Oh, okay. Wasn't Cats with Terrence Mann, who was in Beauty and the Beast with Gary Beach.

[Andre Jordan]

Ah, nice.

[Matt Koplik]

Who was in the first revival of Les Miserables with Daphne? Ruben Vega.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes. Here we go.

[Matt Koplik]

Bernardo. Sally.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes. I was thinking. I was like. I was like, if I could. I was thinking to my mind, like, how do I get from Ken Patient to Daphne? That was literally what was in my brain. I was like, there's got to be a rent way in there, motherfucker.

[Matt Koplik]

I did it. God damn it. We.

[Andre Jordan]

Well done.

[Matt Koplik]

We did it, Joe.

[Andre Jordan]

Well done.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you very much, Andre. This has been delightful.

[Andre Jordan]

Yes, I agree.

[Matt Koplik]

Where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[Andre Jordan]

Okay, so you can find me on Instagram at Jerseys Andre Jordan. J E R S E Y Z A N D R E J O R D A N. You can find me on Twitter. If you're on the Twitter at Cinnabons Jordan, there's a similarity between the two names. So Cinnabonz. C I N N A B O N Z Jordan. I like to put Z's at the end of things because I feel like that's a very millennial thing of me. Like, we like our boy bands like things with Z's at the end of them. So Jersey's Andre Jordan has a Z in it, and then Cinnabon's Jordan also has a Z in it. And if you're in New York City, I work at Don't Tell Mama's, the Piano Bar cabaret spot. It's on 46 between 8th and 9th. I work there for Piano Bar. Every Tuesday and Wednesday night, I'll be there bartending and serving drinks. But also everyone that works there sings. So if you want to come and hear me do some songs and sets, if you want to tip me money to hear your favorite song, I will also do that too. But that's where you can see me perform in New York City right now. So, yeah, Instagram, Twitter and come see me at Don't Tell Mamas.

[Matt Koplik]

Beautiful. You can follow me on Instagram at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, give us a nice 5 star rating or a to review. Anything helps with the algorithm. Henny, Join us next week for God Knows what? Because I've been recording this whole thing out of order, and it's just a matter of, like, who I can get, who wants to cover what. It's been a. It's been a wild ride. This is to say, the series might get shortened if I can't get certain shows covered, but it's fine. It's fine. It's been an ordeal anyway, so, yeah. Join us next week for God knows what. Andre. We close out every episode with a Broadway diva, and we like to relate it to the show we're covering now. I don't think we've done Nell Carter, and it'll be very easy to get a Nell Carter. We have spoken highly of Ms. Charlayne. We haven't spoken as much about Ms. Armelia. Any of these three women do it for you, or do we just want to channel all three? From Mavens to Haven and have them sing together?

[Andre Jordan]

Oh, well. Well, I. For me, no, Carter is very much like I knew Carter was before I knew that she was named. Misbehaving. Like, she's just always been like, I knew her. I watched a lot of television growing up. So for me, no, Carter is like. Like is my jam.

[Matt Koplik]

I saw her in Annie. I did. I mean, I don't remember much about her in Annie, but you know that.

[Andre Jordan]

You saw it.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I. I have the playbill. I went backstage, got the T shirt, been there, done that, and I knew Armelia from Alice in Wonderland.

[Andre Jordan]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And then I think. I think what got me into Amos, behaving, my dad was like, you know, the Queen of Hearts was. Was in this. And I'm like, ah. So do you want to do Nell, then? You want to do something with Nell? Sure. Okay. You know she was supposed to be the original Effie, right? That she's who they wrote it for.

[Andre Jordan]

Oh. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, I love it.

[Matt Koplik]

Then she went on there, she. They wrote it for her. They kept pushing it back for her to commit, and then she's like, actually, I'm gonna go get some TV money. I'm like, okay, I guess we'll go and hire this Jennifer Holiday, right?

[Andre Jordan]

This. This kid, this 20 something.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, if we must. Yeah. And the rest is, as they say, her story. Thank you so much, Andre. Thank you so much for listening, everybody. And have a great rest of your week. And that'll be it for now. Take us away, Nell.

[Andre Jordan]

Bye. Each day I leave and you. You always scold me whenever.