AMERICAN PSYCHO w/ Jeff Malone & Richie Grasso

Summary

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Broadway Breakdown – "AMERICAN PSYCHO" (w/ Jeff Malone & Richie Grasso)

Podcast Date: October 10, 2024
Host: Matt Koplik
Guests: Jeff Malone & Richie Grasso (Hosts, Half Hour Podcast)

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Episode Overview

In this "Grab Bag" installment of Broadway Breakdown, host Matt Koplik welcomes guests Richie Grasso and Jeff Malone to dissect the notorious Broadway musical adaptation of American Psycho. With Koplik’s trademark blunt humor and critical insight, the trio dive into the history and development of the show, their personal reactions, key scenes and songs, and the broader context of adapting film and literature for Broadway. Throughout, they explore why American Psycho failed to connect with a mainstream audience despite its cult following, ponder the legacy of the property, and debate what truly makes a successful stage adaptation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Ever-Changing Title Game & Marketing on Broadway

• [02:14–04:00] Matt muses on the current trend of slapping “the musical” on adaptations, noting past adaptations like Carnival (from Lili) and Sugar (from Some Like It Hot) took more creative naming risks.
• Richie notes: “It’s all about marketing and billing and how do tourists recognize a title?”

2. American Psycho – Their Entry Points and Perspectives

• [04:31–05:45] Jeff and Richie recount seeing the Broadway show (April 24, 2016), detailing that Richie hadn’t seen the movie beforehand, intentionally approaching it as stand-alone.
• Matt summarizes his history with the book, movie, and musical: “My tier system for this is movie number one, musical two, book three.”
• He describes the book as “a brilliant idea... 350 pages. It should be 120.”

3. Plot & Structure: “What Really Happened?”

• [11:02–13:46] The team unpacks the show’s plot—Patrick Bateman, a 1989 NYC investment banker with murderous, psychosexual tendencies, loses his grip on reality amid rampant 1980s consumerism and status-obsession.
• Jeff: “He is continually losing his grip on reality... no one is aware of anything that’s going on with him.”

4. The Culture, Satire, and Setting of the 1980s

• [21:11–24:15] The hosts observe that the 1980s—its image obsession, club culture, Les Mis as status symbol—are critical to the satire.
• Matt: “It is ironic, this musical that is ultimately about suffering has become so commercialized and exclusive.”

5. Standout & Problematic Numbers

• [25:08–29:03] Consensus: “You Are What You Wear” is the show’s most successful number.
  • Jeff: “When we heard that song, I turned to him [Richie] and said, that was amazing. And Heléne Yorke in that role was perfect.”
  • Matt: “If all they sent me was ‘You Are What You Wear,’ I’d be like—okay, you clearly have cracked something.”
• They discuss the use of 80s pop songs (“Hip to Be Square,” “Don’t You Want Me Baby?”, “Everybody Wants to Rule the World”) versus original score.
• Discord question: Would American Psycho have worked as a full jukebox musical? The trio mostly say no, praising a hybrid but warning against thematic shallowness.

6. Duncan Sheik’s Score & Challenges of Musicalization

• [34:44–41:48] Richie is underwhelmed by Sheik’s work, comparing it to Spring Awakening: “The bar is set very high...I don’t think we’re getting the same level of musical theater songwriting.”
• Matt likens musical theater writing to baking: “You have to know the basics, you have to know the foundation, and then you can start having fun.”

7. The Musical’s Sterility, Intimacy, and Missed Theatrical Opportunities

• [45:12–49:51] Matt posits the staging is “too sterile… [the city] is kind of disgusting. Everyone has a light sheen of sweat. It’s not as sterile as the stage show presents.”
• Richie and Matt imagine how projections or immersive elements (like those in Network or the recent Sunset Boulevard) could offer intimacy and punch missing from the original Broadway production.

8. The Twist & Interpretive Ending (Paul Allen & “None of This Matters”)

• [55:10–67:39] The group closely analyzes the Paul Allen/Owen plotline, the twist when Bateman finds the apartment cleaned out, and diverging interpretations: Did Bateman really kill? Or is it all in his head?
  • Matt: “Some people think none of it actually ever happened… others think Patrick is not the only American Psycho around.”
  • Jeff: “I’m in the camp that it didn’t happen and it’s his psych that he’s actually doing and committing the murders...but he’s not actually doing it.”

9. Characters: Gene, Evelyn, and the Cast

• [75:21–82:31]
  • Jean (Jen Damiano): “Kind of forgettable,” lacks depth, serves as the anti-Evelyn.
  • Evelyn (Heléne Yorke): Standout comedic performance, cited as “the most on point of, ‘we’re doing a musical of American Psycho.’”
  • Favorite lines, including:
    • “[Evelyn:] I will not have an odd number at my table, Patrick. This isn’t Hoboken.” ([88:26])
    • “[Courtney:] Oh, God, Patrick—college.” ([87:30])

10. Broadway Reception, Grosses, and Cultural Success

• [90:15–99:19]
  • They discuss the show’s flop status: high discounting after opening, lackluster reviews, and a vocal online fanbase not translating to ticket sales.
  • Matt: “People will pay $900 to see [The Music Man]. People weren’t willing to pay more than $70 to see American Psycho... I think a lot of people understood at their core, ‘this may not be successful for me.’”

11. Adapting for the Stage – The Larger Conversation

• [103:10–110:15]
  • Why adapt American Psycho as a musical? They speculate monetary motivation, cult popularity, and the general film-to-stage trend, but agree it’s a fundamentally odd fit.
  • Matt: “This is a property that just doesn’t sing.”
  • Matt and Richie bash lazy adaptations (Back to the Future), while admiring attempts that transform the source, e.g. Legally Blonde.
  • Use of musical theater as an art form (“like baking – you need to know the basics”) and the difference between NY and London audiences for these adaptations.

12. “Shows Everybody Loves, But We Don’t…”

• [116:48–120:22]
  • Richie: Hadestown, Kimberly Akimbo (“I liked it…but didn’t get the obsession”)
  • Jeff: Wicked
  • Matt: Threepenny Opera

13. The Price of Broadway, Audience Habits, and Changing Tastes

• [137:04–150:45]
  • Discussion on ticket pricing, seeing shows multiple times, and the nature of theater comfort shows (Wicked, etc.) vs. expanding audience tastes.
  • Jeff: “If someone only sees one show a year… are they picking American Psycho?”

14. Final Thoughts – Why the Cult Status, and Where Next?

• [154:38–158:28]
  • Discussion of potential immersive revivals, the challenges of staging (“not being done a lot”), and the probable fate as a niche, cult musical rather than a repertory staple.
  • Jeff: “Most of the music in general in this score is not memorable at all.”
  • Standout/lasting merits are limited: “Hardest bodies ever seen on stage,” “You Are What You Wear,” and “Oh, God, Patrick—college.”

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the show’s confusion and sterility:
  • Matt ([32:08]): “The original production was very confused of whether they were trying to comment on musical theater or just do their own thing.”
• On why the show ultimately doesn’t work:
  • Matt ([42:17]): “I just don’t think this is a property that sings.”
  • Richie ([34:44]): “I like Duncan Sheik. I didn’t think this was his best work.”
• On the end of Act 1 (blood splatter):
  • Richie ([14:28]): “That act one ending, when that plastic screen comes down and the blood splatters towards the audience—I thought that was revolutionary.”
• On box office realities:
  • Matt ([92:07]): “Once the show opened, the reviews came out... their attendance dropped immensely. I went to a Saturday matinee... and that theater was like 60% full.”
• On Bateman and Jean:
  • Matt ([78:57]): “There’s no reason for her to be in love with Patrick…she’s never been interesting, she’s never supposed to have been interesting.”
• On Broadway fan patterns:
  • Jeff ([147:43]): “It helps to create an actual opinion on something rather than you just comparing it to one show.”
• Favorite comedic bit: Matt on Corey’s best line ([87:30]):
  • “He used to let frat guys tie him up and gang bang him at parties. [Courtney:] ‘Oh, God, Patrick—college.’”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:28–02:14 – Opening/Introductions
• 04:31–05:45 – Seeing the show on Broadway (personal stories)
• 11:02–13:46 – Plot summary and discussion
• 14:28–15:19 – Blood splatter and Act 1 finale
• 25:08–29:03 – Song breakdown (“You Are What You Wear”), jukebox vs. original score
• 34:44–41:48 – Duncan Sheik’s involvement and critique
• 55:10–67:39 – The twist, ending, and interpretive possibilities
• 75:21–82:31 – Deep dive: Jean, Evelyn, and principal character analysis
• 90:15–99:19 – Broadway economics, box office, and audience reception
• 116:48–120:22 – Shows “everyone loves but we don’t”
• 154:38–158:28 – Cult status, future revivals, and the show’s legacy
• 159:00–161:39 – Plugs, final thoughts, and outro

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Episode Tone & Style

Faithful to Koplik’s style, the episode is a sharp, irreverent, and insight-dense conversation. The dialogue is peppered with expletives and theatrical in-jokes, balancing fact, opinion, and personal anecdote—delivered with rapid back-and-forth energy. They frequently reference other Broadway productions, industry quirks, and the business realities of modern theatre.

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Final Thoughts

The panel agrees: American Psycho is a fascinating Broadway artifact—bold in some choices, lacking in depth or chemistry in others. It stands as an example of a not-insignificant trend: gorgeous to look at, occasionally witty or chilling, but—“I was bored for a lot of American Psycho” (Matt, [42:08]). Its legacy may be as a minor cult favorite and a case study in why not every film or novel, no matter how artful or “cool,” thrives on the musical stage.

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Closing

• The episode closes with shoutouts to the guests’ own podcast, Richie's play, and the traditional call for five-star reviews and donations, before letting Patti LuPone—Matt’s choice—sing them out.

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For more about Broadway Breakdown and upcoming episodes, join the Discord described at the end of the show.

Transcript

[A]

I want black and sharp mahi mahi.

[B]

It works so well with Isaac Mizrahi.

[A]

I'll have soda and creme de menta.

[B]

Tastes so good with Oscar de la Renta.

[A]

The ginger mango soy black bass complements.

[B]

The beige mill blast. I will not touch a drop of red wine.

[A]

Don't want to ruin Calvin Klein, Chanel Gaultier. Hello, all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Grab Bag, and it's covering shows that you submitted and I picked out of a bowl. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is a power couple. They have their own our podcast on this power network we call Broadway Podcast Network. They are the hosts of Half hour. Please welcome Richie and Jeff. Richie, how do you say your last name?

[B]

Grasso.

[A]

Okay. I was going to say Richie Grasso and Jeff Malone, but then I was like, oh, I forgot to ask Richie right before he recorded how you pronounce this last.

[B]

It's all good. Grass. Richie Grasso here. Yes.

[A]

Richie, Jeff, how are you guys doing today?

[B]

We're good. Well, thank you for having us. We're so, so excited to be here.

[A]

Thank you for coming on. I mean, I had. After meeting you guys at one of the BPN events, no humble brag. And then seeing you guys again at job, I was like, oh, I got to get these assholes on the podcast. And then you acted first because you are more productive than I am. And then I felt like a dick because I was like, well, now it's like tit for tat. But, like, I had you guys on the brain for a while.

[B]

All good. And we had you. Yes. We had you on for our fall preview episodes, the play episode of the musical episode. So you all can go listen to that. We talked about our thoughts, and now we're kind of knee deep in this fall season. We've seen some things already that we've already talked about waiting for something. So, yeah, it was very, very cool. And now we're here talking about something completely different.

[A]

We. We sure are. Richie. Gf. What are we talking about today?

[C]

Today we're talking about American Psycho. The musical.

[A]

Yes. Not the ballet.

[C]

You got to throw a musical on there. So we know.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. There used to be a time when. When you were adapting a known property, you changed the title so people. So people knew what to reference. Not so anymore. No, no.

[B]

And I.

[C]

And now it's a new musical. The musical. Just throw a musical on there.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And even, like, I think it's so funny when recordings come out, say original Broadway cast recording, new Broadway cast recording newer, or the new. There could be a show with four new Broadway cast recording. What do we call it?

[A]

The most new of the Broadway cast. Yeah, no, that. Yeah. I was. I was actually trying to chronicle this the other day, not for anything real, just, like, for my own dumbass brain, because I was like. I mean, obviously we have so many musicals based off of movies, and that's not a new phenomenon that's actually been happening since the early 60s, late 50s. But it was. It got more frequent with each decade. But I don't think they were doing, like, such and such the musical until really, like, either when they brought Gigi to Broadway or when they did 42nd Street. And then it became like, the. The musical because, like, Lily became Carnival, Some Like It Hot became Sugar, Knights of Kabiri became Sweet Charity, things like that.

[B]

But then, like, the Matchmaker Thornton Wilder play became hello, Dolly. So music was a completely different title. Right. Like, it wasn't the matchmaker of the musical. So. Right. It's interesting why we haven't kind of gone. We should go back to that creative energy of, like, completely giving. But it's all about marketing and billing and how do tourists recognize a title?

[A]

Absolutely. Well. And I think it also depends on. On how you adapt the property. Like, is it different in a ton of ways from the original material? Like, hello, Dolly is quite different from the Matchmaker.

[B]

True, true.

[A]

I would argue, like, the last show I could probably go with a different title was Kimberly Akimbo, because it's. It's similar in a lot of ways to the play, but they add a who plot line. They have an ensemble. Like, it's not really in the play. But alas, this is the world in which we live in. It's fine. We have American Psycho, the musical. Richie. J.F. how did American Psycho enter your chat?

[B]

So we saw it, and we had not seen the movie. And we had heard.

[C]

Well, I had seen the movie.

[B]

Oh, Jeff had seen the movie. I had not seen the movie. So we actually both went in one with a perspective of the movie and me not having it. Seen the movie. And we were. We had heard good things about it. We didn't know much about it, so we kind of went in blind. I think we actually got a TDF ticket and we had a good. And sometimes TDF really Comes through on great scenes. So we had, like, a center. Like, it was center rear orchestra seat. I want to say it was at. Oh, my gosh. Why am I forgetting what theater was at?

[C]

Schoenfeld.

[B]

Gerald Schoenfeld. Schoenfeld, Yep.

[C]

How I know? Because I have.

[B]

Oh, there we go. You got the playbill. So. And we. I can even tell you the date.

[C]

We saw it April 24, 2016.

[A]

Oh, I think it had just opened by that.

[C]

It did.

[B]

It did.

[C]

Because it says in here opening night.

[B]

April 21, the first post opening. And I also feel like if we were getting a TDF ticket right after opening, that was probably not a good sign from the start, because if they were already kind of like giving discounted seats because it didn't last much longer past that, which we'll talk about that later. But basically. And then, yeah, that's how it kind of fell. Right, Jeff? That's like our story of getting there.

[A]

Yeah. Have you looked into the book or movie since the show?

[B]

No. And I kind of like that. I am looking at, like, I might be the only one out of three of us right now just looking at the musical as musical, which I kind of. I was like, maybe I should go watch this movie. Like, no, actually, maybe I'll give him a different perspective of not having the book or the movie in my brain.

[A]

Yeah. The uninformed perspective. I love it.

[B]

I was like, let me just go from what I saw on the stage only.

[A]

Yeah, listen, totally fair. Because the truth is that all. I think any dramatic work should be able to stand on its own, not just, like, you have to do all the research. I think the best works are they stand on their own. And then when you, like, look into other versions or the source material, you find more stuff, but you, like, you still can enjoy it for. On its own. Like, for me, that's talking about a musical based off of a movie. A little Night music totally stands on its own. Nearly perfect, if not totally perfect, musical. And then I watched Smiles of the Summer Night, and I could see how they got their way to night music. But I was also like, I don't know. It works on its own. It works as an adaptation. It's all very, very fun.

[B]

We had done a really, really quick side note. We had done. During COVID times. We watched all the Stars Borns before the last one, and we did a whole. I don't know if that's, like, okay or not to say I never want.

[C]

To see another vers a star is.

[B]

We watched the old Old, old, old movie.

[A]

Like the super old Frederick March in the. In the 30s. Yeah.

[B]

Which was cool. And then we saw the Judy and then we saw the Barbara and then we saw the Gaga and we had. I think we released podcast episodes about it. Jeff. We were just starting the podcast, all about the changes that were made, what worked, what didn't. So it was kind of cool to like, go down that path. I don't know.

[C]

Especially because I learned I was a very big fan of the first one.

[A]

The very first original one's really good.

[B]

Very good. Yes.

[A]

And that and kind of might be the darkest of the four.

[C]

I think that's why I liked it.

[B]

I think the. The Judy one was fine. It's interesting when you get to midway through that movie and there's like the missing. The missing film and you're just listening to the audio. It's fascinating to me.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Stars born aside. First of all, that must be like foreplay for you guys. Of like, hey, tonight we're going to go all night and watch Every Star is Born.

[B]

Oh, let me tell you. And then I'm waiting for when I'm like, you know, 60 years old and the next star is born to come out.

[C]

Please know.

[A]

I guess it's Selena. Go Gomez, or whoever's playing Matilda in the uk.

[B]

Yeah, you're very right there. But yes, aside, aside.

[C]

Okay, so with me, movies.

[A]

Movies, yes. So American Psycho, for me, I found the movie quite young. The movie came out in 2000 and I. I remember seeing the posters for it. I remember seeing the trailer for it and it scared the living out of me. I had no idea that it was also like a dark comedy. And it finally popped up on cable one day, I want to say, when I was like 15 and I again, like, it was. I picked the absolute wrong scene to watch because I had no idea the context of it. Jeff, you've seen the movie.

[C]

Yes, and I probably shouldn't have watched when I watched either.

[A]

So, yeah, it was the scene where he is with one of the sex workers and the girl he knows from, like, life, and they're having the threesome and then he ends up killing both of them and the. Drops the chainsaw down the stairs. And like, when I first saw it out of context, I was like, jesus Christ. Like, this is so upsetting. And then I want. I actually watched the whole thing about a year later from start to finish and was like, oh, like, yes, there's terrifying stuff about this, but it's also incredibly funny and absurd and just weird and so I got very into the movie. I don't remember if I read the book before or after I saw the show. Possibly right after the. I. My. I'll just spoiler for everybody out there. My tier system for this is movie number one, musical two, book three. And it's not that I love the musical. I think that the book is a brilliant idea. 350 pages. It should be 120. It's like there's, like, there is so much in it that is upsetting just because of how in depth Bret Easton Ellis goes into with, like, the murders and the sexual assault and all this other stuff and the cannibalism, that it gets to the point where, like, this isn't art anymore. This isn't even, like, artfully upsetting. You are trying to get me to put this book down. And it meanders in a lot of ways. And some of it makes sense for the character of Patrick Bateman. Some of it just feels like, oh, did you not have an editor? Did, like, no one choose to read this because they were so upset by it. So you got to just put in whatever you wanted in this book. But with that in mind, reading the book and then going back to the movie, I was like, oh, what an artful adaptation. They took this meandering great concept and made it into a narrative structure and made it work. And then the musical, I think, definitely takes its. Takes a nod from the movie in terms of structure, but incorporates a lot more from the book, which people talk about. We also have some questions from the discord that people wanted to know. So we will talk about all of that as well. Yeah. So for uncultured fucks out there, Jeff and Richie don't read the book, you're.

[C]

Saying, right, well.

[A]

What is the plot of American Psycho for people who are unaware? And I'm sure there are many who are unaware.

[B]

Well, we basically have a man who's at. Listen, there's a lot of commentary here on this specific time period that he's in. So we're talking about, like, so much reference to the 80s and he's even talking to the audience about that, Right? So we're talking about a man who's slowly unraveling to the point of end of Act 1, where he's starting to kill people. But there's also problems with the marriage and his family and the relations with the people in his life, the people he's working with, and the status of him itself in this life. But I think it's interesting because then you get to the end and you're like, did he do this? Did he not? What's in his mind? What really happened? What didn't? It unravels in a good way, I think, from the stage production anyway, in this, like, sort of. I listen, I didn't leave there being like, whoa, I don't know what happened. I left the thing. Like, I think this happened. I actually think Jeff thought something different happened than me. And I think that that's basically the restructure. Right, Jeff? What am I?

[C]

Well, on the. The plot overview, though, is American Psycho is set in 1989 New York City, following the life of Patrick Bateman, a wealthy investment banker with a dark secret.

[A]

What is said dark secret?

[C]

Gf that he is a psycho.

[A]

Yeah, he. He likes. He likes to kill. He likes to. Sorry to use the R R word here, people, but he likes to rape. He likes to torture. Primarily women, but occasionally men.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And has a lot of sick fantasies and fetishes. And as the story continues, he has a. He's. He is continually losing his grip on reality and himself, and no one is aware of anything that's going on with him. He has a fiance or a, like, not even real fiance. The book, the movie and the show. The show makes a little more clear that they are just dating. They're not engaged. The movie and the book both are. Like, at some point, Patrick and Evelyn probably got engaged, even though he never actually asked. And it just became, like, common knowledge that they were going to get married. But no one ever talks about the wedding. And anytime Evelyn brings it up, he gets upset, so she never talks about it. And, like, they're cheating on each other. Like, she's cheating on him with his best friend. He's cheating on her with her best friend, and it's all. Yeah. And everyone's also getting confused with each other all the time, specifically the men. Patrick is always getting misidentified as different people in his office. Everyone in his office is like vice president of something and doesn't really do much. They're all about the esthetic. They're about their business cards, their haircuts, their suits, their. Their. Their bodies. They're very obsessed with dating women who have, quote, unquote, hard bodies. They want hard bodies themselves. Patrick is very big on the perception of Patrick Bateman, of how he comes off to everyone else.

[C]

The brand.

[A]

Exactly, the brand. I just. I just watched an episode of south park where Butters is talking to Kyle about how he needs help with his brand, and that is, like, the brand just, like, being him. And, yeah, so that's just on. That's on mind today. Yeah. So, like, what was your reaction then to the show, Richie, since you had no knowledge of it?

[B]

I had heard some good things about it. I went into this. I thought there was a. I thought it was ahead of its time in a way, because this dark. Listen to me. The one moment that stands. I mean, I'm allowed to give spoilers here, right? Because the show.

[A]

Yeah, go open.

[C]

The show's long gone.

[B]

I know, I know.

[A]

Anyone who's listening to this most likely knows the spoilers.

[B]

But, like, so, like, that act one ending, when that plastic screen comes down and the blood splatters towards the audience, I thought that was revolutionary. I just thought that was so cool. And it was the simplest thing, but I just. And it obviously made sense to do at the end of Act 1 so they could clean it up and intermission. But I was like, this is cool. And it was almost like, we want to immerse you. And then it was like, okay. Like, now when I see immersive theater, like, audience on the stage and dark video screens all over the place and, like, horror things like Greyhouse being so dark and people being on stage in, like, I love Van Hoof productions and things like, I was like, oh, this was, like, starting that trend of. And I almost wish it would have went further with the immersion, but I remember thinking, this is cool. Just the blood splatter. I actually think they could have done more.

[A]

Yeah, that was. That was a comment that garnered a lot of arguments when the show came out, because you had a lot of American Psycho fans of the book, of the movie who came to see it, some people who were super into it. And some people were like, I wanted more blood, I wanted more gore, I wanted more camp. And some people were like, no, it's art, man. Like, it's. It's. It's tastefully done. There's, like, a good amount of blood in the original Broadway production. But, yeah, like, I know that they started with more than they eventually ended up with, and I think it was just because, like, they.

[C]

Yeah, they.

[A]

They needed to not spend a fortune every day on cleaning.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Well, I think it's like a line that gets teetered here on because you have a lot of, like, cult following fans of the film and then that are gonna go see it and they want something that's specific. But then how do you kind of reach the mass of the Broadway audience so that they're not completely turned off by a musical?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is this is a property that never gets fully embraced from the start. Whatever medium it's in, it always gains a following over time. And even with that following, like it's never mainstream. Like the book when it came out. So the, the book by Brett Easton Ellis came out I think in 1991 and Ellis at that point had been like a major, I don't say, I guess you could say like wunderkind. He, he had his first book Less Than Zero, published when he was like 21, 22 in the 80s. That was made into a movie as well. It was like a big phenomenon and that also had a lot of backlash and controversy because it was just so upsetting and deals with a lot of terrible stuff. But it was sort of the. One of the first books of the 80s to openly acknowledge that a lot of dark went on with the Rich and the Famous or semi famous. Not I guess this is a spoiler alert and it's very upsetting. But like the big like reveal at the end of the book, that's a book that has a lot of reveals but basically like the main character is Bateman esque in the sense that like he's very numb inside and he's like chasing sex and, and drugs to kind of feel something. Although he's not a serial killer or wannabe serial killer but. And he's also like 21 and he's back in LA visiting all of his friends who are models or whatever. And a lot of his friends also have now become sex workers because they like, while he went off to college, he came back from like, so I'm addicted to heroin and even though I my parents are worth millions, like I don't have a lot of money so I'm pimping myself out. So like his best friend, he finds like getting gang banged at a gay party because he needs money for his heroin addiction. But this all culminates at another party that his friends all bring him to where the like host of the party reveals that he has a like 12 or 13 year old sex slave in his bedroom. And everybody's like viewing it like, like a Picasso in the hallway, like oh my, like look at that. And he's like, this is upsetting. Why is no one else upset? And like I don't know. And like that was sort of the big reveal of the book and everyone got very upset about it. So this wasn't his follow up. I think this was his third book maybe. But it got even more backlash and like his, all of his publishers wouldn't publish it. He had to go to a different publisher and. And it's been banned in so many places. What got it finally talked about, seriously was that Johnny Depp wanted to make a movie of it in like 94, 95. And Depp, yeah, Depp, like, wasn't a movie movie star anymore. He had like been a teen heartthrob who then started doing weird like Edward Scissorhands and Ed Wood. So he had cachet. And that didn't end up happening, but it got back on the market when Leonardo DiCaprio wanted to do it with Oliver Stone. And but like, again, every male lead in Hollywood was like, I kind of want to do it. I want to play a role like this. And they all would back out because they're like, oh, I've got a young teenage fan base and I don't want to upset them. So ultimately, like, Christian Bale is one who ends up doing it because he wasn't really a movie star. He had been a child actor in Newsies and Empire. The Somebody wasn't a movie star yet. And what also ended up making it work was that they had Mary Heron, who made the movie. I shot Andy Warhol. Like, the movie is written and directed by women, which I think is very important to its success. Not only, not only them taking that novel and shrink wrapping it into something that makes sense, but also like not making it feel so misogynistic even though, like, yes, women still get assaulted and murdered. You don't watch and you feel like, my God, what? Like a priggish, you know, sexist story. You're watching and you're, and you're seeing the commentary, you're seeing the satire and that. But that movie came out and it actually did get good reviews for that movie and it did okay. It was so cheap to make that. It did make money, but like, it took five to six years for it to like, finally have a cult following. And the show, I feel like got had its, had its fan base pretty early, but hasn't quite yet become talked about as like, this was a show that we, you know, slept on. Maybe I'm sleeping on the people that are saying that loudly, but I haven't really heard it much. I don't, I don't think we're sleeping on it, but I will talk about that more in a second.

[B]

I was gonna say, I think it's definitely something where I remember leaving there being, wow, this is ahead of its time. Audiences are not appreciating this right now. Like, wow, why is it getting mixed reviews and then why is it closing? But then you look back on and you say, yeah, did it do enough in a way? Because I do look at it and I say, you know, the 80s, a time that I was not around. But. But you see people reflect on the 80s. And some people say, oh, it was amazing. The music, the culture. And some people say it was horrible, it was tragic, it was sad, it was dark. There's so many ways you can look at the 80s. And I think this teetered on. Oh, there's some comedy, oh, there's some fashion. Oh, there's some stark stuff. And I don't know if it could have went a little further in each of those. Maybe when you hear.

[C]

Incorporated a lot of it, though. I mean, from the 80s, I think, you know, when you start talking pop culture and being obsessed with image and things like that, I think it's a perfect time. And why something like this brings in the 80s references.

[A]

I mean, part of it is. Part of the reason why it takes place in the 80s is that that's. That's when Ellis was writing it. He wrote it, I think, in 89. And the book, I believe, takes place in 87. The book takes place, I think, in 88 or 87. The movie takes place in 87. The musical in 89. And it's. It's interesting because in. If it were to by taking place in 87, because Les Mis, Rob is such a major recur in the book. Les Mis is such a recurring joke in the movie. It's a recurring joke in the show. It's really only in once or twice. But in the book it's more that Les Mis was just so culturally everywhere. So all of these terrible things are happening. And like he sees a Les Mis poster, he sees a Les Mis playbill. Like he sees, I think, like, it's something. There's one point where he either sees a dead body or he. Or he murders a homeless person. And like, as the, like blood is pulling out, he sees like a discarded playbill for Les Mis. And then he sees someone getting attacked in an alley. And on the alley is a Les Mis poster. And if it's 87, it's because Les Mis is like the thing. If it's 89, like it is in the musical, Les Mis is still very popular. But Phantom has officially become the thing. And, and the. And one of the pieces of cultural cachet and. And class cachet that these guys like Patrick Bateman and his colleagues like to have is having access to the most Exclusive things. So, for example, the running joke of Dorsey. I will get to all that in a second. But by saying in the movie, I have tickets to Les Mis. That's saying, like, I have tickets thing that everybody wants in 89. Yes. Everybody still wants to see Les Mis, but everybody really wants to see Phantom. And I think they even make a joke about it. Like, we have tickets to the theater. Oh, Phantom. Les Mis. Oh, cool. And it's like.

[B]

Well, it's kind of like in Angels in America when they're always like, I got to go. I got to go to Cats. They keep referencing going to Cats. We got to go to Cats. And actually, Cats is referenced a lot in old. What show am I going to see? Cats. Like, yeah, what was the show of the time? That was early 80s, but what was the show of its time? Yes. And ironically, Les Mis. Miserable people, death, you know.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

It's all ironic to this plot too. Makes sense.

[A]

Yeah. Because Les Mis is a. Is a story about people who are struggling, people who are dying. Some of them are lower class, some of them are higher class, trying to do the right thing. And it's been created into this piece of entertainment for the masses. It's become this multi. At that point, multimillion, eventually multibillion dollar enterprise. And so it is. It is ironic, this musical that is ultimately about suffering is so. Becomes so commercialized and also so exclusive at that point in time. Like, you only get to see the thing about the people suffering too. So if you have the money to go.

[B]

Right. Isn't that interesting? Right? Yes. Yes. I love that tie. That's awesome to kind of think about that.

[A]

We're talking more about this in a second. But first, get. Guys, guess what? We have to do break time. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean?

[B]

You're the top.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top.

[A]

You're a coolage dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of red. And we're back. So the. Let's just dive into it. Let's just get all over the place. You mentioned the twist at the end. We will talk about that a bit more in a second. But what would you say is, like, whether you like the show or not, we'll. And we'll talk about more of that as well. What is a song that you think either nails or closely nails the assignment of turning this property into a musical. You are what you wear Same. I was thank. Oh, God, you stole my line.

[B]

I knew.

[C]

I mean, I think when we heard that song. I. I turned him after I said, that was amazing. And Helena York in that role was perfect. I mean, yeah, she.

[A]

She did a little bit. When I saw it, I remember thinking she just did a little bit too much. Annalee Ashford comedic acting of saying words weirdly, like the commute, the constant ponchon. Like, it. I thought she could have done that, like, three times less than she did. But overall, I think her performance was the most on point of like, we're doing a musical of American Psycho. She, for me, was the most, like, musical American Psycho. And I'm like, I have thoughts about Benjamin Walker, but we'll talk about that in a second too.

[C]

And I also think she's one of the most memorable from the show. Like, I still remember her performance.

[A]

Yeah, Evelyn's a good role, too. In general.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

More than Alice Ripley or Jen Damiano, who. I love both of them, but I think Helena York stood out more for me than the other women in the.

[C]

I forgot Alice Ripley was in the show.

[A]

Yeah. Alex Ripley was a glorified ensemble track.

[B]

I know. I don't know. And I don't know what that was all about. That made no sense. I was like, wait, I remember looking at that playbill twice. Like, what? Like, she's doing this.

[A]

Like, girlfriend had a mortgage to pay, rent was due.

[B]

It was a contract for her for the eight weeks it was running or whatever, I guess, you know, but exactly.

[A]

And like Jen Damiano, God bless her, Jean has never been, like, the most quotable, memorable role, even in the movie. But there's a reason for that. And, yeah. So much to talk about.

[B]

So, yeah.

[A]

You are what you. You are what you wear. And I. While watching American Psycho, I had. While watching it at the time and then rewatching it and re listening to it for this podcast, I had an idea for myself of like, okay, for each show that I cover now, every musical, if I were an investor, what song from this score would that team have to send me for me to go, okay, I'll. I'll give you some money and I'll. We'll talk about them more with each show that I do. But for American Psycho, if all they sent me was you are what you wear, right. I wouldn't give them a million dollars, but I would be like, okay, I'm gonna. Like, you clearly have cracked something. The problem for me is I think that a lot of the rest of the score doesn't work as well. But like, that one and there.

[B]

And I know this is, like, so not like, The PC thing to say with this original score. But they did put Hip to be square in. And I understand that's not the original. You know, that's a. I get what they did there with that. But to me, that was very. I remember watching the very end of that, the blood splattering with that song playing and thinking, oh, this is, like, really cool. And I know it's not the original song, but it was very cool that they put that song in and they put it in that moment to end the act. I did like that person.

[A]

Well, you know. Well, that song was there because that was what he plays in the movie when he kills Paul Allen.

[B]

It makes sense.

[A]

Yes, that's. That was a question on the Discord was like. Because they have. That. They have another song, I think that don't you want me, baby?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know if those are the only two songs. Not.

[C]

Isn't Everybody wants to rule the World.

[B]

Oh, was that in there?

[A]

That not original? I thought that that was. I thought that was original.

[B]

Oh, I don't know.

[C]

Everybody wants to rule the world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, that's a pop song, right?

[A]

Is it?

[B]

I thought that was an actual.

[A]

Oh, yeah. No, now I hear it. Damiano sing it at a mile an hour. It does not sound like a pop song.

[B]

Yeah, she probably slowed her way down. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That is in the show, right?

[B]

I think it is.

[A]

She sings it. Doesn't Jen sing it?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's what's interesting here is. And listen, we see this. What did we have three musicals last year with Huey Lewis music? Like, there are definitely.

[C]

Who would have ever thought that Huey Lewis is going to be all over the Broadway stage?

[B]

And, like, so when you look at something like Back to the Future and you look at, like, half of it being original and then these scattered songs from the movie. And I have. I have thoughts on.

[C]

We don't talk about that.

[B]

Conversation. But. But it's the same format of like, hey, I'm going to hybrid, write original songs, but then we'll get the rights to these pop songs and put them in. I know people have opinions on this, and there are some people that love it, and there are some people, like, it should have been jukebox only or it should have been original score only. And you kind of fall in one of these. Those three categories with a lot of musical theater, but I don't know what your thoughts were on. So that.

[A]

That was. Yeah, that's the one of the questions on the Discord Channel, which, by the way, Guys, if you haven't joined yet, make sure to join so you can ask your questions. And you also will find out early which episodes I'm recording when. But the. One of the questions was, do you think this would have been more successful if it was a jukebox musical as opposed to an original score? And I think this is a show, a property, rather, that absolutely should be asking that question. I can't tell you which one would make more sense. I know when it was announced, people were very eager for it to be a jukebox musical, and that is because in the book, the narrative. What if you can call it a narrative, gets interrupted a lot with these seemingly not. Not nonsensical, like, not necessary chapters where Patrick Bateman is just going on about music, about a band, about a singer, about a genre. And he talks about it in great depth and with great articulation. And that is incorporated in the movie a little bit. Like, every time he's usually. It's usually right up before he's about to kill somebody, he's talking about music. So the famous scene with Paul Allen in the movie, and it's Jared Leto. So it's. That scene in the movie is great because you want to watch Jared Leto just get it, and you do, but he plays hip to be square and talks about Huey Lewis in the news and when he's gonna kill the two women later on in the movie while they're making out. I think because he put either, like, ecstasy or he put quaaludes in their wine while they're making out. He is talking about Whitney Houston and so mute. Like, pop music of that decade is very important to Patrick Bateman. He. He definitely finds something soothing in it. It definitely calms him a bit, but also it. But he's always wanting to know about whatever is popular. He wants to fit in. And so I think having music of that era be the music of the show makes a lot of sense. However, if we did that, we would not have you are what you wear, which is exactly as you like, the best number in the show. What is. You are what you are. Set the scene for me, Jeffrey.

[C]

It's talking about all the materialistic things that they love and need.

[A]

Who. Who's singing it? What's the scene? Richie? What's the scene? Who are the people you.

[B]

You feel we have all people.

[C]

Isn't it the girls? It's Evelyn.

[A]

Yes. And Courtney.

[C]

And Courtney. I mean, it's all the girls. And they're just, like, posing and they're.

[B]

And I will Say that. I remember that choreo being, like, a little basic, like, step touches.

[C]

No, it was perfect.

[B]

But it was. It was enough. It was perfect.

[A]

The choreo where they're doing it. It's hard that the original production was very. I found to be very confused of whether they were trying to comment on musical theater or, like, just do their own thing. And every time they tried to comment on musical theater, I thought that they failed. I don't like the choreography. And you are, because it's definitely not being like.

[B]

I agree. I thought the choreo was. It was just. I just remember lines and block and step touch, and I just remember, like, jazz hands.

[C]

I'll take the easy. I'll take the easy answer here.

[A]

Where they were like, streetcar.

[B]

Right?

[A]

We're definitely making fun of, like, isn't this stupid? But I'm like, no, just be coked out models on the Italian Runway. That's. That's what it is. Because the song. The song already is funny. Just. It's one of those clever songs where that, in normal circumstances, Sondheim hates because it has nothing to do with anything. And it's ultimately just a list song. And once you know what the twist is, which is that they are taught they are rhyming different foods with different designers because they are. They're setting at the table for Patrick's birthday party that Evelyn and Courtney are putting together. And it's all. The only setup is, oh, my God, Evelyn, you look to die for. And it goes so well with the menu I provided. And then they just do the whole thing. And it's a one joke song. But because so many of the rhymes are so clever and it's so stupid, you're in it for the entire time. The entire time. Some lyrics. Some rhymes are a little more forced than others. This is Duncan chic, after all.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

Some of them are great. Like, the moment you open with I want blackened char mahi mahi go so well with Isaac Mezrahi. I'm like, Chanel.

[B]

Like, I. It's clever. And I mean, listen, can we go into the Duncan chic part of this now, or should we wait? Because I wanted to talk a little about love.

[A]

This is our orgy. We go wherever the bodies move to.

[C]

But I was gonna make a comment first.

[A]

I don't.

[C]

I don't think this would have worked fully as a jukebox musical. I get where some people are coming from. But then we're gonna force songs in here that really have no meaning to Patrick's like, inner dialogue that I think we really need the original music to. And not just put some random 80s song that, you know, maybe has lyrics that kind of fit the narrative of what he's saying. And so I. That's why I don't think it's being a full jukebox musical would have worked. Like, I. I'm fine with it being the hybrid of having some of it.

[A]

I think it's totally fair.

[C]

Yeah. That's my opinion.

[B]

I. I think the thing. Here's my thoughts on Duncan Sheik being on this project. So Duncan Sheep kind of breaks. Breaks through with Spring Awakening.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And sets the bar. Right. Like, obviously, he's done other things, but, like, that's the big thing.

[A]

And, like, for musical theater. Yes. That's his big.

[B]

Right, right, right. So then you have set the bar really high. So now the expectation is very, very high. I think I'm walking into this saying, wow, his name's on this. Oh, are we getting the next Spring Awakening score of sorts. And we're not quite. Yes, there's moments. Personally, I don't think we're getting the same level of musical theater songwriting that we were in Spring Awakening. Kind of like, if the bar is set so high for Lin Manuel Miranda, what's his next project? Are we going to sit here like, oh, my gosh, are we getting the next Hamilton? Which, ironically, Hamilton was up against this that year, and then Hamilton won, and so was Duncan Cheek even gonna have a chance of winning? Who knows?

[A]

Wasn't even nominated, baby.

[B]

Right. So. Exactly. So that's what I'm saying, too. It's like. And was he also not nominated? Because they said half of this is hybrid, you know, because the Tony committee can get really hard on that sometimes. Like, we're not. If this is not a truly fully original score, we're not even gonna nominate you. I know they've done that for other shows. So I look at Duncan, I say, okay, he's good at what he does. This was not his best work. Personally, I think musical theater wise compared to Spring Awakening, which I don't want to keep comparing it to that, but that is a very, very, very good score.

[A]

But also, like, what else can you. What else can you do? Because he only has, really two musical theater entries. This. In Spring Awakening.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Compare.

[B]

Yeah, but then you have someone, like. I mean, not to compare to, but, like, when Alan Menken is pumping things out left and right because the Disney budget is paying it. Or when you have. I don't like when you have.

[C]

Oh, when he's pumping it out with the same melody in all of his films.

[B]

Well, it's kind of, you know, but I, you know, but his. His name is on everything. So, like, where is. My question is now it's been, what are we in 20? Almost 2025. This was, what, 2016. So we're almost 2016. Yeah, we're almost 10 years. We're nine years from this now. Haven't seen Duncan Cheek's name on anything lately. Has he stopped? Is he writing something? We don't know. It would be interesting to know what's next for him. I always find that, like, you know, not to think like this, but, like, you know, Lin Manuel had in the Heights, and a ten year later, it was Hamilton. So, like, I feel like. I feel like every 10 years you get nowadays. I mean, Sondheim was pumping things out left and right. Rod Hammerstein, they were pumping things out all over the place at that time. But when you look at, like, okay, do the composers of today purposely, like, go into hiding and then come out with this big project? I don't know. I'm going on a tangent. The point I'm trying to make is I like Duncan Cheek. I didn't think this was his best work, but I do think he has got glimpses of nice things in this score in general.

[A]

Yeah. So. So much to comment on here. So this is the problem with being with you both is because you know me, I have opinions on just about everything, including the dust on the floor. But.

[B]

And.

[A]

And you. And you both come at me from, like, different angles at different speeds, and I'm like, I want to comment on everything, but also, I know that I can't. So things are gonna.

[B]

It's okay.

[A]

Spiel it out, and then I'll say something. And Richie immediately comments on it. And then Jeff, then, like, Jeff is a fudgeing sniper who waits his moment, says the thing, and, like, walks away. And I'm like, God damn you. Now I got to comment on her. So I will say Duncan Cheek, in my research for this, he. I found a couple of interviews with him, and there was a video essay from Waiting in the Wings that I watched about it where he said in an interview, Duncan Cheek, he was like, about the shows, not Catch Gun and Broadway. He said, well, I take comfort in knowing that the cool kids understood it. And that made me kind of hate him as a human being for a minute, just because I was like, I don't like the narcissism of artists, specifically Broadway artists, where if something doesn't land on Broadway, it's everybody else's fault. And I understand why people have put up that mentality now. It ties to what you were saying, Richie, of, like, it takes so many years now for shows to come to Broadway. In the time of Sondheim and Rodgers and Hammerstein, it was cheaper to put up shows. So if that show didn't work, you could call it what it was, which is a mulligan, learn from it, and make the next show better. And nobody lost their shirts. Correct?

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Yeah. And so, like, you know, Rogers, Hammerstein do Oklahoma. They do Carousel. The next up is Allegro, which was fascinating, but not. Not good. And they understood that it wasn't good. And they learned from it. And they learned like Hammerstein learned. Oh, I'm not good at coming up with original stories. I'm good at adapting other stories.

[B]

And their last show was Sound of Music, I think.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It was the last show that they did a score for, but Hammerstein didn't write the book for it.

[B]

Right, right, right. In terms of, like, you would think, like, that's a hugely successful film. Not as successful on stage, but, I mean, that music is so iconic to American culture that, like. Yeah, look, sometimes it's not always the first thing you write or the last thing. Right. Because Oklahoma. Being their first thing together, was so successful, too, so.

[A]

Absolutely. Well, and I mean, at Sondheim, as a musical theater writer alone, Forum was incredibly successful. Nobody ever talked about his score. And it's a solid one. It's not his best, but it's solid. Then he does Anyone Can Whistle, which is a giant bomb. And that score is awesome.

[B]

I love that score. And it's. And it never gets successful, but I do love that score because that show.

[A]

I'm sorry to say, that show blows. It's not a good show. But this, like, it's a. It's a score that I will listen to. I've now seen that show twice.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I'm like, oh, the score isn't even that enjoyable in context of everything. But he learned from it and moved on from it. But so Chic also is somebody who. So, first of all, everybody gets very sensitive because it takes so long now for shows to come to Broadway, just writing it, getting the financing. So when it comes on, at the very least, you need to sell that there was merit to it so you can get your next thing up if the last thing didn't sell. But also, you know, it. It sucks to put seven years of work into something and then not have it land but also, Sheik said he's not a fan of musical theater. And I think that helped Spring Awakening accidentally. I don't think it helped American Psycho. I. I don't know if I said this already on a different episode, but I know I. I came up with this realization. Well, in my research for American Psycho, musical theater is a lot like baking. You can't just sort of come in and decide to make a recipe for dough that without knowing what goes into dough, like you, you have to know what yeast, what. Which things need yeast, which things need to be proved, how long certain things need to take to where you bring your own sense of artistry is in flavors, in. In structure, in. In combining different things. But you have to know the basics, you have to know the foundation, and then you can start having fun. It's ultimately what makes the south park movie successful is like, Trey Parker loves musical theater. He knows how that's supposed to be structured. Lin Manuel Miranda loves musical theater. He knows structure and he knows his history. Duncan Sheik is like, I don't know, man. Musicals. And ultimately, I do think that he. And what's his face. What's the book writer?

[B]

Jeff has the playbill there.

[A]

It's Robert.

[C]

No, Roberto. I don't know how to say. Agueras.

[A]

Yeah, he the one. The dude who created Riverdale. I do think there are. There's a lot about American Psycho I'm like, this is probably as good as you're gonna get by making a musical of this material.

[B]

I.

[A]

The fact that I don't think it totally works, nor am I entertained or intrigued by much of it. Like, I. I was bored for a lot of American Psycho when I saw it on Broadway.

[B]

I remember a couple songs being really slow and being like, oh, this is not moving. Literally not moving anywhere.

[A]

Yeah. And I think it's. I think that chic, not really caring for musical theater, I think harms the excitement of that piece. Robert Gould's being a very fascinating, vision oriented director helps a lot of the imagery of that show, if not necessarily the structure or the intensity of it or the humor of it. But, I mean, there's a lot, there's a lot here that I admire objectively. And the fact that it doesn't totally work, I think a comes with the fact that I just don't think that this is a property that sings. You were saying, Jeff? Like, you don't think that a jukebox version would work by cramming in songs that have nothing to do with the plot being Patrick Bateman's inner monologue. And I also think that's kind of the problem with a lot of Duncan Sheik songs for it is that, like, he is properly musicalizing Bateman's inner monologues. But Bateman, for 85% of the story, is pretty dead inside. And so those monologues, while sung, are not terribly captivating, which is, dramaturgically speaking, correct for this piece. But that doesn't stop me from sitting there being like, okay, that's the 90th tile I've counted on the ceiling. The 91st tile. The 92nd tile, you know, but that's, but that's why I think I like you are what you wear. Because it is boldly funny. It is a mate. Like, it is. It is the closest thing I think straight men can get to writing. Intentional camp.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

And it helps that you have someone like Helena York and Morgan Weed performing it. Like when they get to the. I guess you would call it the bridge, they go, I will try on these conversants, whatever it's called. And then. But let's be clear, there's nothing ironic about our love of Manolo Blahnik. And then they just repeat it. And watching Helena York just look out in the audience with the deadest of faces because it's the most serious thing in the world. And she goes, no, there's nothing even remotely ironic. Like, that is.

[B]

That is camp. That is camp.

[A]

Well, that, that's Charles Bush. That's John Waters of It's beautiful women being ridiculous and saying crazy things to me. That is like, that's Joan Crawford. That's Faye Dunaway.

[B]

Right?

[C]

And that song was written for all of us in this.

[A]

Absolutely right, right again, like, if you presented me with that and said, we're working on American Psycho, here's what we. Here's like our pitch song. I'd be like, yeah, let's go for it. And then you play for me some other songs. I'm like, yeah. Because the show, the story is ultimately about, you know, the sterilization of New York for the elite, while also how, like disgusting and crime ridden and disease filled the rest of the city is for everybody else. And the movie makes it a point I think the movie's very good at. If you do eventually watch it, Richie, which I think you should.

[B]

Yes, I will, I will.

[A]

It's really good aesthetically looking at New York as not a clean place. Everyone we're following is quaffed and showered. And yet you get this like almost oily vibe from everyone because New York City itself is kind of disgusting. Everyone has like a light sheen of sweat on them. It's just not, it's not as sterile as the stage show presents. And I think that helps with the thriller element of it as well as the violence because the movie's actually not terribly gory. All of the murders actually kind of happen off screen or behind something. It's. It's very Hitchcock psycho intentional cutting where you'll, you'll see blood, but it comes like the blood comes from off screen to on screen. You'll never see any blade touch human skin ever.

[B]

And you wonder and I, I want to. We're going to come back to Hitchcock about. I have another Hitchcock. Because we'll get to.

[A]

Happy to.

[B]

Because I love Hitchcock. But we'll talk about that a second. The one thing I was going to say was what would this show have been like? I wonder asking both of you if there was incorporation of the heavy video usage from the west side Story revival or the current heavy video usage of Sunset Boulevard revival. What if we just, you know, what if they had decided? Because once again, I think we were just before the heavy video. Of course video footage was used in shows in the 2016. But could we have incorporated like tons of visual video projections of 80s culture? Would that have helped this at all? Or maybe not.

[A]

I think that was, I think that was in this. Maybe not the entire, like, it wasn't fetishized like Evo Van himself did.

[B]

Yeah, Network, right, Because that network. Right. There was a heavy usage.

[A]

Yeah, I think I, I would have been. I think it actually would have helped bring some intimacy to this, to everything if some of the footage that we watched was actually Bateman's own video camera. Because that's something that he does in the movie. I think he does it in the. He does in the book as well. He videotapes a lot of stuff, including his own crimes. And we don't have to have videotape of the crimes, but him videotaping himself or the people around him and projecting that onto the screen. For all of the humor and sheen that we have, you brings you a little closer to everyone and you get a better idea of who's real and who's not. Even if you're like having a close up Evelyn being a fake ass hoe you like, you're at least you still feel a little closer to it. Like you're laughing at it for so long and then eventually you get up to it and you're like, oh, there really is nothing beyond surface.

[B]

I'm all I'M already looking at it, like, from a perspective of could they have. If they're getting rights to Hip to Be Square, could they have gotten, like, rights to like, actual 80s commercials during those scenes referencing all those brands and put like, ads up of the actual. You know, we're so heavily reliant in this production of brand, culture. Culture brand. To not have any visual. I know maybe that's like a. Maybe that would be a director, like, beating us over the head with it, but I don't know, that could have been cool to put some 80s actual commercials up of some of those brands they were referencing. Just a thought.

[A]

I would, I would be interested to know what, what post productions of the Broadway have done, because for most of us, we are only aware of this original version. It has. American Psycho has been done in a couple of other places, but not a lot. And I would like to know, because they did in Chicago. I think they just did it in dc.

[B]

There's one, One of those. I did an immersive. It was, it was like. I read. I forget which one it was, but it was this year, I think it was in the spring and you were walking into an 80s nightclub. It was immersive. And you were in the 80s club. So an immersive production of it.

[A]

Yeah, I would have, I. I would like to have seen that because I feel like that would have been fascinating because the, A lot of the music does give off a club vibe. I think that a heroized love aesthetic and environment would really help this show. Yeah. And there. And I think. I don't know if it was that one or a different one where the book writer said, like, oh, this one, like, was super bloody. And it really helped and I, I enjoyed it immensely. Yeah, I just, I would like to know how other people approach it visually because I think while there was a. Of, I'll be honest, beautiful stage pictures in the original, I did have issues with the aesthetic of it as well. I thought it was a little too sterile in its look. Yeah, I think that's. I don't know if that's. Because I'm just coming at this from the movie perspective where the vibe was so impactful for me and so I have a bias. But I don't know. That's just sort of my take at the moment for that.

[C]

That I can see it.

[B]

Yeah, no, I got that. And I also feel like. Yeah, I don't know. I think, I just think if, if, if, if, if this show was brand new, coming to Broadway in 2024, it would have been different than what we saw in 2016 in terms of the boundaries being pushed with, like, I'm saying, blood usage, elevated use of projections, maybe more immersion. I think we're on that cusp. Cusp right now. I'm watching all these videos of Nicole Scherzinger covered in blood at the end of Sunset Boulevard. Like, covered in it on the floor. And she's not afraid to get whatever's. You know, I'm not.

[C]

We haven't seen it yet.

[B]

We haven't seen it yet. So. And we all know what if you know what happens at the end? This is like, whoa. But I'm like, yeah, but she's not afraid to be covered in this blood for whatever reason. Like, could there have just been more of the I remember and then end in this American cycle ending? I remember the last song being like. Like, it was like so slow. He's standing there singing. They're all standing there behind him. It's the wedding moment. And it's just. I don't know, it just seemed like a wilting flower at the end. And then we ended the show. It didn't seem like with one look, I'll be me. I'm not saying we have to be at Sunset Boulevard on here, but where was the. I don't know ending of this end? This didn't end strong for me. I remember.

[A]

But that's also. That goes into where Andrew Lloyd Webber both excels and cripples himself as an artist. Because Sunset Boulevard, when they wrote it, the original ending, like the final norm of the mad scene didn't end with a reprise of one look. It like the curtain came down on her just being insane. And it was. You can watch it. You can listen to it, too. It's very unsettling, but it's not like. Like, bam. Send you out into the streets. And then they. They eventually added in the With One look reprise, and they tweaked it a little bit each time, so it eventually became how we know it, which is her doing that I'll be me.

[B]

Bump ending is chilling to me. I. When that blackout ends at the end of Sunset, I gasp.

[A]

It works. It's not. It's not unsettling in the way of. The way they do have it originally, but it is. It is very chilling. It's. It's more. This is also just top of mind because of my. Of having been knee deep in Jekyll and Hyde at this point. But like, Jekyll and Hyde ending, the way it ends is more like early Sunset Boulevard Than later Sunset Boulevard. And later Sunset Boulevard kind of takes its cue from Sweeney Todd of, okay, we've got nine dead bodies. Angela Lansbury's in an oven. We gotta send out, like, we can't go. We can't roll back on any of this. But we do have to end this as a musical. So they do a final ballad, and they kind of have their cake and eat it too, because it's still creepy and unsettling, but it ends on the.

[B]

Yeah, right, right.

[A]

Makes you leap out of your seat.

[B]

I just love that. And horror, dramatic musical theater. I love endings. Endings like that.

[A]

Yeah. Because the final song, I guess I think it is called this is not an Exit, which is the final. Yeah, the final line of the book as well. There's a mo. So the thing about the musical, the book, and. And the movie that they all share with their ending is the sort of idea of none of it matters, which is accurate for the story. Not the best way to end your musical. It doesn't have to be like. And we all learned a lesson that's. You can't do that for an American Psycho musical. But I wonder if. If Duncan Cheek took a moment, was like, okay, I. If we're gonna try to get this thing to run longer than the six weeks it's gonna run on Broadway, is there a way we can have our cake and eat it, too? At the end? We're like, this confession meant nothing. This is not an exit. And also, chemically, musically speaking, trick the audience out of their seats, and maybe that's something another pass could go through. Maybe they did try that and they ultimately decided artistically it wasn't the story. But, yeah, it. For a show where there are so many, it.

[B]

It's one too many for me. Yeah.

[C]

I mean, it's like they come full circle. I feel like in the end, it kind of starts where it began. I. I don't hate the ending. It could have been better, definitely. But it's like, I think it kind of leaves you sitting there thinking a little bit more about, like, what you've watched and lets you start making your own decisions on, like, did it happen? Did it not happen? Is it his own mental that he did these things? I mean, there's so many different ideas that you can kind of come up with there, but that's just me diving into that kind of scene a little bit more and creating something from maybe something that wasn't that good at the end.

[A]

Well, so we can talk about all that means in a second. And I think we have to. It all starts with Paul Allen, leading to the Paul Allen apartment, leading to the scene with Alice Ripley. But before we get into any of that, guys, let's take another break. I beg to differ with you. How do you mean?

[B]

You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top.

[A]

You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet. And we're back. So we have been hinting at the twist. And anyone who knows American Psycho knows what we're talking about with the twist. But I think we gotta delve into it in order to talk about more of the finale and what all of this means. But to get to the twist, we have to start with the character of Paul Allen, who is the Patrick Bateman's fixture for the first half of this story. He is sort of everything that Patrick Bateman is aspiring to be. And it seems like Paul Allen is doing it so easily. Right? Right, he is. He has a very similar job to Patrick. Again, it's VP of a bank or investment firm or whatever. And none of it ultimately matters. These guys don't do much. But you get all these, all these little details. There's a big account everybody wants, the Fisher account. Paul Allen's got it. There's the famous card trading sequence in both the book, the movie and in the show. It's a full on musical number, which I disagree with being a musical number. It's a little Legally Blonde. Well, Bend and Snap is a number because it was in the movie. But Legally Blonde actually makes it important to the, to the plot, which the movie is not. Way to go, Heather Hawk. But in, yeah, in American Psycho, you know, we have the cards and Paul Allen's got the best card. Dorcia is the new restaurant in town that no one can get a reservation at, but Paul can, anytime he wants. Has tickets to Phantom, has tickets to Les Mis, is always, you know, dating the hotter girls and always is running into Patrick and never knowing he's Patrick. He always thinks he's somebody else. And ultimately, act one ends with the hip to be square number where Patrick murders Paul Allen and then hides his body and then uses Paul Allen's apartment to murder and store bodies. And he.

[C]

Does he pronounce it Paul Owen or Paul Allen?

[A]

It's Paul Allen in the movie. In the book. Is it Paul Owen in the show?

[C]

I haven't Paul Owen. At first I was like, wait, I think it's Paul Owen.

[B]

Because what does it say in the Playbill, Jeff? It says Owen Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Maybe they changed. They might have changed the name for the stage.

[A]

They might have. I'm pretty sure that it's. Let me double check. I'm almost positive it's Paul Allen in the.

[B]

Well, while you're checking that, I will say that I feel like, you know, with maybe this. You know, someone could argue that the 80s was maybe the first time of status, of terms of, like, material things. And I mean, of course, that existed in the 70s and 60s and times before, but this was the first time where. Yeah, like, where was jealousy creeping in of these people's lives in the real world, but also in this plot to say, is the commentary of the writers to say, yeah, Patrick Lehman is so jealous that he's going to literally kill him because he's so jealous, and obviously no one should be doing that. But is the commentary like, oh, well, he had it coming, no pun intended, because he was so braggy and so, look at me, look at me, look at me. That obviously he shouldn't have been killed. But the point is, like, was it pushing boundaries by saying, yeah, well, this. Other people are driven to insanity because of the world that we created in America, being American Psycho. There's a lot of connection there. Maybe. I don't know. Jeff, thoughts? Jeff, you agree with that?

[C]

I agree. Ish.

[B]

I'm not saying anybody deserves to die. Obviously, I'd be killed. What I'm just trying to say is, was the commentary like, oh, well, if you keep bragging about your life, this causes other people in the world to get jealous and cause problems. And obviously in America, because the name is. This is American Psycho. This is what was happening in American culture, and we became a Keeping up with the Joneses culture. Even now in 2024, with status and who's posting on Instagram, they're doing this, and what they look like and what they're wearing, where they are, you know, I don't know. It's. It's.

[A]

Yeah, it's. Who's got the best life, Who's. Who's doing the most with their time, who's got all the things. And I think that the only thing that everyone can agree on is people want to be a part of exclusivity. They want. They want the thing that's hard to come by because it. And by having something that is considered uniformly special in its own way makes you special. I have the thing that not everybody has. Therefore I am a special individual. Right. It's not true, but that is what a lot of people think. And that is definitely the. The mentality of everyone in American Psycho. Paul Allen. I don't recall how it's played in the show. In the movie, obviously, like, it's Jared Leto playing and it's Paul. It is Paul Allen in the movie. Paul Owen in the show, which also like how American Psycho E to be like, Paul Allen. Paul Owen, like, all these different names. Everyone's names are always different because everyone's being mistaken for somebody else. But.

[B]

Right. Right.

[A]

Paul in the movie, because it's Jared Leto already just, like, gets under your skin with douchiness because it is Jared Leto. But he's not walking around being like, look at me, look at me. He's just walking. I mean, it's all natural. He just has a connection to Dorsey. He knows the Mater d. He had. Like, he just happens to know all the right people. And there is a bit of a swagger to it, but he's not rubbing in anybody's faces the fact that he is just so naturally tasteful, that he is so naturally well connected. Makes someone like Bateman snap. Because everybody else, when they find out that Alan Owen can go to Dorsia, everyone else is like, that dude, like, I wish I could get into Dorsia, but they're not driven to insanity by it. Bateman is the extreme of it all. And we always covet what somebody else has. And with Paul, it's. It's literally just everything. How people react towards you, I've learned in my years on this earth in the last. In the last two to three years, I should say, from certain experiences I've had. How people act towards you really have not. Has nothing to do with you. It has to do with what's going on with them and.

[B]

Right. Right.

[C]

So, like, definitely what one envies of others.

[A]

Yeah. Or what people are curious by, envious of, in love with, attracted to. You know, you having something that somebody else wants doesn't make you better than them. It's the. You can't. You are not in control that they want what you have.

[B]

Have.

[A]

They might have something you want. Like, it's. It's just. That's how it all works. But, you know, getting murdered is definitely about Patrick more than it's about Paul. Right, right. Yeah. But I. I absolutely hear you. It's not. It's not so much that he had it come in so much as you never know how someone's gonna react to something you're going. Doing. So don't ever walk around thinking that you are untouchable, impenetrable, ultimately that's sort of the twist though with Patrick is that he kind of is because of who he is in this world, which. So the point of all this is he kills Paul, uses Paul's apartment to murder and store bodies. And when he snap, snaps when he like finally kind of has a breaking point and he confesses to his lawyer, slash to the detective in the show and goes back to Paul's apartment, which he hasn't been to in weeks, to clean everything up. He shows up and the apartment has been cleaned out. There's no sign of violence, of blood anywhere. In the book he mentions that there is an overwhelming aroma of flowers. And in the movie you see fresh paint everywhere. And when he shows up, the realtor sees him and, and thinks for a second he might be her 11 o'. Clock. He's not. And then she takes a beat and she says, oh, so then you're here because of the ad in the Times? He says, yes. She says, there was no ad in the Times. I think you should leave now. And he was like, well, what about all this stuff? And she goes, don't make trouble, go, never come back. And that's all we see. Everybody has their interpretation, including the writers and the writer and the directors of each version, like the director of the movie has a very clear interpretation of what happened. Whereas I think everyone else is up in the air. Some people think that it just means that none of it actually ever happened. Some people think no, it did happen, or at the very least Paul Allen's Paul Allen, Paul Owens murder happened. And it's saying that Patrick is not the only American Psycho around. Other people just use their narcissism, their greed and their corruption in different ways. This, this is a woman, this is a society that said we came across a bunch of dead bodies in a three bedroom apartment on the park. So we are going to clear out the bodies, we are going to wipe it clean and we are going to sell this thing for all it's worth. And no one's going to say bupkis.

[B]

It's a great theory. There is a part of me that thinks that the murders never happened and that, that the apartment was sold and they painted, repainted it and we're just moving on. There is a part of me that wants to believe that and it does come down to. And yes, going back to what you were saying, you are articulated better. What I was trying to say about, obviously no one deserves any of this, but there is this commentary from the writers of like who is doing what at this time? To egg people on and, yes, hurt people. Hurt people. So obviously, it's about the Patrick Bateman effect of this.

[A]

Thank you, Raja o'. Hara.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, there we go. But, yes, I think there is definitely something to be said about the idea that what is the audience seeing? What is the creative team seeing? What are the actors doing in that vision? And what are we supposed to take away from that? Are we supposed to leave here and be like. Yeah, I think it could be that. I think it could be that. Which is the whole reason why this being titled Psycho. Who is the Psycho? What is a psychological. What is really happening here and what is really not works really well for film, as we know. Somewhat worked, I think, here. But I think it is fascinating because we can all sit here. I mean, Jeff, I don't know what you think, but there is a part of me that thinks that this didn't. He didn't do any of this.

[C]

And, you know, I'm in the camp that it didn't happen. And it's his psych that he's actually doing and committing the murders, but he's not actually doing it. It's just what he wants to do. And I think it's a little bit of commentary on how we create narratives in our mind on things that we actually want to execute. No pun intended there, but not actually going through with it.

[A]

Yeah, Well, I think the other element that adds to the. What the fuck Is this? Is when he goes to the person who he confessed on the phone to about killing Paul and killing all these other people. Again, in the show, it's the detective who's investigating Paul's disappearance. In the movie. In the book, actually. Okay, I'll put this one in the movie. In the book, Patrick confesses to his lawyer, sees his lawyer, and his lawyer actually mistakes Patrick Bateman for somebody else and says, oh, my God, that was you on the phone pretending to be Bateman. That's so hilarious. And, like, you and I both know Bateman could never do anything like that. And then when he's like, no, no, no, I killed Paul, the lawyer says, that's impossible. I was in London this past week. I had lunch with Paul twice. And what's funny is that to clear up his disappearance, Patrick sends out a voice mail on his answering machine saying, like, paul's in London, right? In the stage show, it's the detective who's not a part of their world, right? And goes to London and fully says, I saw him in London. We had lunch twice. And he, like, apologized for the. For the Mix up. Like he says, like that. Paul acknowledged the. Oh, I hear people have been looking for me. So I. The stage show, I think, definitely goes in the. It didn't happen. Or at least, or, or if that's not their intention, if they still want it to be. If they wanted it to be muddied. I think the stage show fails in that because they add one too many details that gives the argument of it was all in Patrick's head. Right.

[C]

Because they all come at the end. Right at the. That they're all in the final scene.

[A]

Well, yeah, I think that can also be chalked up to artistic staging. Reality.

[B]

It could be the ghost, his mind.

[C]

However you want to take it.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Who even knows if he's actually marrying Evelyn in the end or if it's just his imagination of what the future is going to hold for him now. Like now he's going to have to marry Evelyn.

[B]

So this. I had said earlier that I wanted to tie Hitchcock in at some point, and I don't know if this is an appropriate time or not, but there's, There's. There's no doubt that this is heavily reliant on Hitchcock and Psycho. I mean, we're talking about the movie Psycho being titled Psycho. This was titled American Psycho. Patrick Bateman, Norman Bates, I don't know. I, I do see a lot of comparison there. But what specifically we're talking about is like, what really happened? What really happened in the original Psycho film? We didn't know. We don't know. Is there an old woman in the house? Who killed these people? Is it him? Oh, he is the old woman. And. But there's so much of that in that old film that you look at and you say, yeah, what's really going on here?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you realize that this was a Psycho person playing multiple people. So I, I don't. It's definitely not the same thing, but there's definitely ties to Hitchcockian kind of sort of horror vibe here, I would think.

[A]

Yeah. I think. I would argue there's probably more in line with. Actually, I take that back because the thing about Hitchcock is pretty much every Hitchcock movie, at the end, there's a moment where somebody explains what happens.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yes. And sometimes, and I know a lot with a lot of modern horror thriller fans, that's something that hasn't aged well for them. They really like the idea of interpretation.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I, I don't mind it. I think it just. It in fact allows you to go back and re. Watch the movie to see how all the breadcrumbs were being followed. Something like Rear Window, I think, is actually a really good example compared to American Psycho, because again, with Rear Window, you don't see any of the crimes being committed. You just see the aftermath and you, and you'll hear, or you'll hear certain things not knowing what it's connected to or if it even happened. Like the very first crime, the murder in Rear Window, all you hear is the briefest of shrieks off screen at like 3 in the morning. And James Stewart goes immediately back to sleep because it's three in the morning and you're like, and it happened so fast. Like, was that a shriek? Was that something else? Like, and American Psycho, the book and the musical definitely gives this concept of, you know, well, what about that moment? Well, was that actually him? Because he'll. A lot of things that Patrick says and does get misheard. But then you go back and you go, well, did he actually even say it? Did he just think it? And what he actually said is what everybody heard. Because in addition to having these impulses, we, what we also understand about Patrick, in addition to having these violent compulsions, I guess you could say, is he so desperately wants to be part of society. And how that's portrayed effectively is up to, I guess, the performer and the writer. But he does want to be considered a part of a part of the lexicon. And in order to do that, you can't necessarily say or do the wrong thing. So like, why would you say to someone in a, in a dinner date, I like to kill girls in my spare time. I'm in, I'm in murders and executions. And so maybe he does actually say mergers and acquisitions. And he just, his, his ID wants to say murders and executions. But the thing that people always talk about with the realtor is like, well, what's she about then? Why is she, why does she get stone faced and is like, get out of here? That's actually something where it totally can be up to the actor and director because the way it's written, it could be you and I both know what happened here and get out. We're never talking about it. Or it could be somebody shows up at your listing who you don't have an appointment with and they look on the brink of collapse.

[B]

And it's a safety security issue at that point.

[A]

Exactly. And so, and so you set up the trap for them to, you know, to make sure that you have reason to kick them out of, oh, you're here for the, from the out in the times, there was no out in the times. Get out.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

Yeah. Because this is. And also, like, this is upper, upper class yuppie scum territory. It. Anybody who is not looking or acting appropriately is a danger to their comfort. And so get. Get to step in. So I think it could work either way. And honestly, the way that Alice plays it in the stage version, she does not play it like, we both know what happened here. She plays it very calm of. I. If I raise my voice, that could agitate this person who's clearly snapping the woman in the movie. Again, Richie, when you watch the movie, the woman in the movie definitely plays it a lot colder.

[B]

Okay. And.

[A]

And with, with the understanding of, of the understanding, like, we both know what happened. Get out. And she doesn't blink. And also because she comes in first with all realtor voice, she's like, are you my 11 o'? Clock? And when he says no, she immediately drops everything and she goes, well, then, can I help you? And just, it's. It gets very icy and it's so cool.

[B]

I. I think that's also why I think it's important for us to not need to be. I say this a lot on our podcast about shows lately. These overuse of the narrator, beating me over the head with a plot, making sure as an audience member, I understand exactly what happened before I leave that theater. We don't always need that. And I think that this did a nice job of saying, yeah, you leave. I'm not leaving there extremely confused either. I think I'm leaving there with my own interpretations of this. Yes. And you're right, a lot of Hitchcock things do have some sort of narrator that says, oh, this is what really happened here. I think that's just what old film was. Was at the time, too.

[A]

Well, and it's, it's. It's during the Hayes Code. So, yeah, like, they, they need to be told this person did this bad thing and they are being punished because of this. And now. And now here we all go.

[B]

Right? Right.

[A]

Yeah. I'm sure in a perfect Hitchcock world, he was. There are some. I'm sure he has some movies where he was like, I would have loved to have. Not have to explain it all, but I had to.

[B]

And actually they, and actually not to keep talking to Hitchcock, but they, they do it very smart with Hitchcock because at the very end of Psycho, it's the detective that's explaining it. It's not like a nar writer comes out and says, no, I'm going to tell you. It was like, oh, he's explaining to me, yeah. Norman Bates was this. Norman Bates was that as if you were talking to a detective about a crime. So yeah, it's smart character usage there. But yeah, I do feel at the end of. Of American Psycho there's this. I. I don't know, it was just enough ambiguity and with this lackluster song and this let's just stand and face the audience that I was like one too many stereotypes of like, like give me something here. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah. Staging wise, it reminded me a lot of the original song of Purple Summer. But the whole, but the whole attitude is none of this matters. This confess. It's. It's the line from the. Of the movie. In the book, this confession has meant nothing. And I'm like. It's hard to like stand out to the audience and sing in three part funeral choral harmony of. And nothing matters. And he got away with it all. Or did he? Like. It's just right. It does it again. For some people, this show is a masterpiece and. And they go to the mat for it. And I can understand that in theory it's. But when I watch it, when I'm experiencing it, I don't get upset, I just get bored. And that's the ultimate crime for any show. Specifically a show like American Psycho show. Let's talk about Gene, Ms. Jen Damiano, if you will. Gene.

[B]

I mean, we know that she has these feelings for him.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know. Yeah. Right. And she's, she's smart, she's caring, she's kind. But it's kind of forgettable because you have Helene York at a 100 and Jen. Listen, I don't. Where's Jen been since the show? I don't really know. Maybe I haven't really seen her much.

[A]

She's in a couple of off Broadway things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was Venice after this or before this? After. Maybe, I don't know.

[B]

Maybe. But she, it's kind of what she was doing and this was very similar to what she was doing in Spider Man. Was she in Spider Man?

[A]

She was in Spider Man. Honestly, a lot of the ballads in the show reminded me of the ballads.

[B]

Yes, yes, correct.

[C]

I didn't see Spider Man. I can't speak.

[B]

I would say half me says you didn't miss much and half me says you missed anything. Everything. So I don't know what spider.

[A]

That is absolutely the correct response.

[B]

But Jen does. Jen, you know, it's on stage, little bit of girl next door. She's kind of there. She has some numbers. The character's fine. It was just Very middle of the road for me. It wasn't standout. It wasn't that forgettable, but it wasn't extremely stand out. I don't know, Jeff, if you have.

[C]

A similar feeling on her, I don't fully remember her performance in this show. Is that a bad thing?

[A]

Well, I think it's a combination of two things. So Jean is Patrick Bateman's secretary. And she's literally introduced in the book as my secretary who's in love with me and I'll probably marry someday. In the movie, it's played by Chloe Sevigne. Oh, yeah. And she's. She's played very sweetly as well, but a lot more coy. Like, Jen's performance is very dry, I want to say, but which. Which goes into the aesthetic. Again, the. The vibe of the whole show. It's like everything is sterile. So her Gene isn't a sweet, demure person. She's just very quiet. She's meant to be the quiet contrast to Helena York in the movie. You know, Chloe Savinia is the only one who's genuine and kind. She's also a bit naive. The thing about Jean is there's no reason for her to be in love with Patrick. It's true in the book. It's true in the movie. It's true in the show. In the book, it's definitely emphasized because, you know, he eventually takes Jean on a date, thinks about murdering her, ends up not. But still ends up being around her as the book continues. And she's not portrayed as all goodness and all sweetness. She's kind of. But also, like, she doesn't actually know Patrick. They don't spend a lot of time together outside of work. So her, like, being in love with him is more that she thinks that he's incredibly handsome. She is attracted to his swagger. In the movie, it's similar. And she ultimately comes across his, like, day planner at the end of the movie, which has all of his drawings of killings in it. And. And you watch Chloe Savigny's face just break and start sobbing. And I don't know if she views it as, like, his ultimate confession so much as she's like, oh, he is far more twisted than I ever could have imagined. And this man that I had pining for, that I pinned all of, you know, my. What I thought was, like, the ideal of masculine excellence is actually this twisted fuck. And which makes you then question your own intelligence and understanding of people and empathy. And in the musical, they're meant to connect in a lot of ways. That I don't buy. Like, she's also at Les Mis the same night he's at Les Mis. And they both.

[B]

I remember that. Yeah.

[A]

And they both loved it. Which I also think, like, I think it's so anti Patrick Bateman for him to talk about Fantine. And I dream to dream in such a caring way. I'm like, the real Patrick Bateman would discuss the musicality of that song and not the, like, emotional underpinnings. And he would not care for the character. He would appreciate the musical structure of the show. But so for him to be like, oh, Fantine's big song, I Dreamed a Dream and what it meant. And she's like, I know. I loved it, too. I found it so moving. He's like, cool. That's great. And there's a moment when. So when Patrick finally asks Jean out, he has a line where he's like, where do you want to go? Anywhere you want to go. I can get us in. And Jean just casually is like, well, how about Dorsia in the movie Chloe Savinia asks it kind of coyly because she knows it's an exclusive place. And she's like, can you do it? Like, I think that'd be. That could be funny. You watch Christian Bale's face just go cold. And in the musical, Jen Damiano asks it earnestly, and Patrick's like, so Jean is just like everyone else, and you can see that he's planning to kill her. And she keeps being like, no, I swear, it's fine. I just want to be with you. It doesn't make me like Jean anymore. I don't find her. She's never been interesting. She's never supposed to have been interesting. She's just the most un. Toxic of the bunch. And. Yeah, but they want to make her, like, this pillar of goodness. They give her these ballads of, like, I see the sadness in his eyes. And, like, she gets to sit on the bench with Alice Ripley and, like, talk to his mom about him. And his mom is like, he used to be such a good little boy. Like, I'm sorry. That song fucking sucks.

[B]

Sucks. Yeah.

[A]

Those rhymes are terrible. I hate that song. Moving on. I hate that song.

[B]

Genuinely hate it, I think.

[A]

Also, like. And also just utter. Like, he was in all other versions of American Psycho. He was torturing other kids and animals from a young age. Like, he. He makes casual references to, like, people he's killed and girls he assaulted in high school and college. In the musical Elsewhere, he's like, he maybe. Maybe they're trying to be like, oh, she had a.

[B]

A.

[A]

A coding coded view of his childhood, but I don't buy it. But so Jim Damiano hears, and she's like, he's so tortured, and I want to help him, and I just. I don't. And if she's. If they're trying to make her the soul of the show so you have someone to like, I think they fail.

[C]

Well, I find with Jean, it's one of those characters that are kind of like, they're the person to show you that what Patrick wants and is kind of embodying, she actually sees it, and that's why she likes him. So she's, like, the one person that actually sees, like, how he looks, what he's doing for all of the things that Patrick is reaching for and wanting for.

[A]

Sure. For sure. I think that's fair of. She is. Or at the very least. Yeah, like, she. She. Everything that he's trying to emulate, she takes at face value. And it's like.

[C]

And no one else cares.

[A]

Yeah, because everybody else is just as attractive and successful as he is. Yeah, she is.

[B]

And listen, I also think the character had to be very different from Evelyn. You know, what he's dealing with in his personal life. Dating Evelyn. To have another female character be the complete opposite from a structural writing perspective, makes sense. So I think you have this comedic, outlandish Evelyn, and then you have Jean, who's a little more humble, a little more down to earth. And I think that just maybe allows us to differentiate how he can engage with two very different women.

[A]

Yeah, I think she asks him the question of, like, have you ever wanted to make someone happy? Something along those lines. And it's in the book. I think it's in the movie, too. In the book, she asks it, and he is thrown by it, and then, like, gives her a response about, basically assault, and she hears it, doesn't know how to respond to it, and so changes the subject. And it is, for me, it read as Ellis being like, Jean is sweet, she is kind, she's not deep, and. And clearly, like, is doing a lot of mental gymnastics to keep her attraction to Bateman going, to hopefully get him interested in her. In the movie, they have a little bit more of an honest moment. But it is Patrick on the brink, on the cusp of actually caring and then choosing not to and then letting her go. And in the musical, it is like. It's almost like American Psycho's interpretation of the bench scene from Carousel of two people coming together and, like, finally Bonding in all the darkness. And I just, I. I don't buy it. Like, she is. She is absolutely successful as the anti Evelyn, but I also don't think that she's successful on her own as a person. Like, she, like her success only comes in comparison to all the other characters, not as her own self.

[B]

I totally agree on that. Yeah, yeah. No, for sure.

[A]

Because the only other real female principal role we have is Courtney, who while Evelyn is all as materialistic and selfish as Evelyn, but her, the difference between them is that she is drugged out all the time. She's always on Valium and according to Patrick, like, is more sexually desirable. Like she's the one he's having the affair with. She also has actually my favorite line in the show. She and Evelyn have my top two favorite lines. I'll start with Evelyn first.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

This is something that Roberto wrote for the script. They go out to the Hamptons, which is in the book. And Patrick is losing his grip on reality. Also in the book. Also what's in the book that's not in the show is that Evelyn also is getting disinterested and is starting to of helicopter into the city every other day for facials and clearly having affairs. In the musical, she's very much like trying to get her hooks into Patrick and he tells her like, I'm. I'm losing my mind. I need to get out of here. And she's like, well, let's. She's like, we need to, we need to commit. We need to be married. Like, she's not listening. He's like, you're not, you know, like you're not telling you not understand what I'm saying. I have a deep and unfixable lack of ability to connect with people. She goes, then I have the same says that that ceiling fan, I'm wondering if I can dismantle it and use it to chop off so and so's head. And she goes, marry me, Patrick. Marry me and we'll find out together.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's.

[A]

Great line. Great line. The other one is a line that the fir. The. The. The setup is in the book. But the, but the book writer added a follow up to it that's even funnier. So in the book. And, and it allows me to accept that this line is applied to a different character in the musical because the punchline from Courtney is so good. But in the book, Patrick has a catch up with his old college girlfriend who clearly still has an impact on him. She's smart, she's gorgeous, she's successful. And he then finds out that she's dating the head chef at Dorsia. And she goes, well, you knew him. You knew him in college, and already the fact that. That it's a dor connection makes him plummet. And he also is like, she's the one. She's the one who was too good for me and dumped me. So he's already, like, spiraling. And she's like, you know him, this guy from. From college. And he goes, no, no, no, he was a fag. And she goes, what makes you say that? He goes, no, yeah, he. He used to let jocks at school tie him up at frat parties and gang bang him. And she's like, no, I don't think that ever happened. And then he kills her and does. She's the one in the book that recognizes that his Annika is upside down, and he. And he kills her after that. So both things are in the show from different women, but. So they take that line about the gang bang and apply it to Lewis Carruthers, who is one of Patrick's co workers, who he almost tries to murder and then realize and then can't. And Lewis takes that as a sexual advance. And Lewis is gay and keeps trying to come on to Patrick. You always know that Lewis is gay, but it's never public. But. So there's. There's a dramaturgical inconsistency by giving this line to Lewis eventually, but. But the point is we get to act two. Patrick is spiraling. Lewis keeps being like, patrick, I want to be with you. He calls up Courtney, says, you can't marry Lewis. She goes, of course I can. And don't say it's because he's gay. Why do you keep saying he's gay? Patrick goes, because in school, he used to let frat guys tie him up and gang bang him. And then. Sorry, I'm sorry. Because at college, he used to let frat guys tie him up and gang bang him. To which Courtney responds, oh, God, Patrick College. And it is.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

It's a great response. It is my favorite line of the show. I remembered when I saw it. I remember to this day. And so seeing it on the bootleg, I was like, yep, I remember that line. Absolutely. Killing college. They used. He used to let guys gang bang him, time up and gang bang him at parties. Oh, God, Patrick college.

[B]

I love it. I love it.

[A]

It makes up for the fact that it makes no sense to give that setup to Louis, who no one knew from college. No one knew was Gay. So, Patrick, just saying it is like, how would you know that, Patrick, if him being gay was a surprise to you in Act 1 1, like, right. It's okay. I'm allowing it. Because Courtney's line is so good.

[B]

I remember one of the. My favorite, I guess, is a scene or lines of a scene, and I'm paraphrasing it, but it was when he wants to bring her to the dinner, and she's freaking out about the number of people at the table and making it an odd number or. What is she? I don't know. She's like.

[A]

She goes. He wants to add Paul Allen to the mix. Oh, right.

[B]

Paul.

[A]

Yeah. And she says, I will not have an odd number at my table, Patrick. And. And there's the. In the cast recording from London, it's Brooklyn, and in New York, it was Hoboken. It's like, I will not have an odd number at my table, Patrick. This isn't Hoboken.

[B]

That's the lie. That's why that is. I thought that was so funny. Oh, my God. I remember the audience.

[A]

Yeah. In London, they said Brooklyn, because for those who don't know, the show premiered at the Alameda in. In London. And also, fun fact, they had to do a Kickstarter because the show ended up being too expensive for the Almeida because it's such a small theater, and they wanted a live band, and they needed more money for rehearsal time, and they didn't have it in the budget, so they started a kickstarter for 150k so that way they could get the funds raised. And also, it was a smart way to get interest in the show, to get people to feel like they were involved in the show in some way. It helped sell the show out. So I just thought it was very fascinating that a production with a lot of big names attached to that was part of a very prestigious theater company. Still needed to, like, look out to the fans and be like, hey, can you guys help us out? We can only take this so far.

[B]

Not to mention, like, even a pretty recognizable title.

[A]

You would.

[B]

You would think a producer today would say, oh, if I get the rights to this, it's gonna instantly be. It should be. Because I looked. And not necessarily. I mean, look at Almost Famous. That did not do well. And that could have, should have, maybe, right? Actually, funny enough, I think I just read recently in the news recently that they're reworking. Like, just because you get to Broadway, that doesn't mean the road has to end. And I think the team is reworking Some of those songs and book scenes to maybe bring it back again in a new way. I mean, there's. Who's to say, if you really have the money and time to do that? I'm not saying that show needs that or not, but, yeah, maybe. I always wonder, like, what could American Psycho come back and be rewritten and re. Reworked and come back in 10 years? I think it could.

[A]

It could. I. I think part of me wonders if they had taken the original route for New York, if it would have been more successful because it would allowed them to test the waters of how audiences here would have responded to it. And what I mean by that, I'll get to in a second. But first, let's take another break with you.

[B]

How do you mean? You're the top.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top.

[A]

You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet. And we're back. So there was actually a lot of. I won't call it scandal or even controversy, but, like, there was a lot of hubbub because American Psycho was. The F. Was supposed to premiere in New York at Second Stage at their Off Broadway theater. Oh, yeah. It was supposed to be part of the 2014, 2015 season. And then I think, like, that winter, they announced that they were canceling it because they were going to go straight to Broadway the following season.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And, yeah, Second Stage had to sort of scramble. So. And I think ultimately that was just like, they had the money in place and interest from theaters, and they're like, well, we plan to go to Broadway anyway. Why not just skip the Middleman and go to Broadway? And I think it was ultimately a mistake if. Yeah, for a. I think they overestimated how widespread the fan base was for that show and. And. And how able people were financially of that fan base to pay full price for those seats. Because something that I know Waiting the Wings likes to talk about is like, if you look at the grosses, they were filling the theater every week, but it was all at super discount, so they couldn't afford it. I'm like, they were filling the theater during previews. Once the show opened, the reviews came out and they got their two Tony nominations, their attendance dropped immensely. Like, I went to a Saturday matinee, I think, two weeks after it opened, and. And that theater was like 60% full. Yeah.

[B]

And shouldn't be like. Which was what Lempicko was just dealing with. Even though that got a lot of Tony nominations, it wasn't filling the Seats. And I know you did your episode recently on grosses. You know, Jeff and I talk a lot about grosses and what. Just a quick side note. On grosses. Yes. When you see a show at 80% house, 90% house, but it's pulling in 400,000, 500,000 for a pretty big show, it's just being papered. It's just getting people in seats. And then when it opens, then it's still sitting at those numbers. You have to kind of say, eventually, when does the plug get pulled on?

[A]

Absolutely. Because you can paper all you want. You're papering to fill the house, to get energy in the theater, good for the cast, and also to get word of mouth out. But if that. If that's not translating to ticket sales, chances are the word of mouth isn't great. You're only looking at the people online who are praising it. You're not. You. You have no way of knowing what the majority of people are saying about your show to get people to come. The only proof you have is.

[B]

Is.

[A]

Is. Is it translating to ticket sales? And with American Psycho, it had a very vocal fan base online.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The fact that it did not transfer to the fact that it didn't translate to mostly good reviews. It got a couple of positives. It got a lot of negatives. The New York Times was very critical. I think Brantley actually was very spot on in his review about, like, it's very beautiful to look at. The bodies on this stage are. Are absolutely mind blowing. Like, I had an eating disorder for 48 hours after I saw American Psycho.

[B]

Oh, I remember those bodies. Bodies up there. Yeah. That was another thing we haven't talked about yet is the way these actors had to look.

[A]

Yeah. And it was. And. But. And this is a show where that's very important to the plot that they look that kind of way. I'm not somebody who's like, oh, we must always have hard bodies on stage if you're in a Broadway show. But American cycle, I'm like, no, no, no. You cannot have somebody who's like, no looking like middle America on that stage. These are. All these characters are working hard to look this kind of way. But, yeah, with. With the reviews, with the Tony nominations and with ticket sales, it's very clear that there was a large number of people that were not responding to this, myself included. And I'm trying to be very even handed about it, but I have to sort of emphasize, again, I did not like this show when I saw it. I admire the boldness of trying to do it. I think there's a lot of ways in which they were dramaturgically successful, but not energetically successful. Like, I did not have a chemical response to this show. Even if I sat there and I was like, I can analyze this and get to the conclusion that this is as well as you can make an American Psycho musical. But, yeah, it just ultimately doesn't translate. It's not that this show was catching on. It wasn't catching on at all. And I really don't like this rewritten narrative of, oh, the audience was there. They just couldn't afford it. It's like, no. People, as we've learned as. As American Psycho will tell you, if it's the thing that people want to see, they'll go see it. We have unfortunately proven to producers time and time again that dynamic pricing works and works, at least in their favor. Not for ours, because people will pay 900c. Hugh Jackman in the most expensive high school production and music band you've ever seen. People will pay 400 to see the wacky brilliance that is oh, Mary. They weren't willing to pay more than 70 to see American Psycho because much as they enjoy the book or the movie, they ultimately, I think a lot of people understood at their core, like, this may not be successful for me, and I. I. For all the good things that I'll like about it, there are gonna be nothings that I can't justify 150 for. And.

[C]

And also the show that year was Hamilton.

[A]

Yeah. But even Hamilton, though, like, so Hamilton, obviously, Tony Awards wise, mops the floor with everybody. Yes. And it's. I think it's easy to say any show that year was gonna suffer under the weight of Hamilton. But there were shows that did come out with some success that season. We have. I mean, plays wise. We have. I think that was the year of the humans, maybe. There was also the. There was also the Eva Van Hoffe View from the Bridge, which I did not like, but was critically praised and was a cultural moment in theater. Financially and critically speaking, the Color Purple revival was very successful, fully launched. Cynthia Erivo won the Tony Ferrari revival. And I believe if it didn't make its money back on Broadway, it's made its money back on the road.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

New musicals. Waitress and School of Rock, both financially successful. They both were able to run about three to four years, shuffle along, unfortunately, closed at 100 performances because of reasons. But, like, critically, very successful. Got a whole bunch of Tony nominations. Like, there was room to be recognized, if maybe not necessarily dominate in the Hamilton year. So the fact that American Psycho got its nominations for, I think, set and lighting and called it quits after six weeks, that it's not. You can't just blame Hamilton for that. There was, there was. The spotlight was on Hamilton, but that was spreading out too. That was a case where the major tide rose. A lot of boats that.

[B]

But I think, I think we have to also remember that there was this, you know, huge push from the name probably the 90s into the late 90s and certainly into the early 2000s of stop the out of Town. Just go right to Broadway. So why are you going to waste all this money doing your out of town? And lately. And when I say lately, I mean like from COVID and on. So 2020, when probably come back 2022 maybe to. To now only the last two or three years. Look at everything that came from. I. I do air quotes on out of town being off Broadway.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, Mary coming uptown job coming uptown teeth now coming uptown. Who's to say big A jamboree may not come up to Titanic. Did not. But maybe it's sitting fine where it is. So, like, what I'm saying is the out of. If American Psycho did a commercial off Broadway run and then came to Broadway, it probably would have had more success because the buzz would have came back to them. They could have said, this is great, but change this, change this, change this. It would have still been expensive. Then we wouldn't have had to do some big LA production or any. I guess you could say London was there. Out of town of sorts. Ish. But there is this, like, success of do it downtown and do it off Broadway and let it run there and see how people pick on it. I don't know.

[C]

Especially because I think London audiences and Broadway, New York audiences are very different when it comes to what's really working over there and then coming here and not.

[A]

So it's very rare that, especially with musicals, I should say it's very rare that a musical on either coast has the same success here. And in London it. Hamilton obviously. Book of Mormon, obviously. But, you know, even shows that have been successful here that came from London were 10 times more successful over there. Like Matilda did very well here it is still running there. It like beat the record for Olivier wins. People keep saying, oh, Operation Mincemeat. Well, it won the Olivier and it's coming with all this buzz from London. I'm like, it's. We'll see. But I don't know, like, what people consider quality or. Or entertaining. Is. It's very different. Culture is different. Also, I'm. I hate to say this. I don't want to be, like, denigrating West End audiences when it comes to musicals because they have really phenomenal taste in plays. But, like, the bar they have for musical theater excellence is different than it is here in terms of performance, in terms of writing, in terms of everything.

[C]

And I saw Dirty Dancing when I was in London. It was one of the worst things I've ever seen.

[A]

Girl. Well, I'll say this. I didn't like Operation Mincemeat when I saw it in London. Granted, I saw the replacement company, and everyone says, oh, that original company really sold it. And I don't think. Think you. I don't think it should be so specific that it's the people who originated to make it work. I think, obviously, having a good cast should always help. And we did have a pretty solid cast. I just didn't think that the show was terribly good. I don't think it's too British. I just don't think it's too good. But I think, yeah, with American Psycho, it's. Anything you can do to build buzz helps. So something like having a second stage run that can take it directly to Broadway helps, but also some things just work better off Broadway. I sort of. I talked about this with Big Gay Jamboree. I don't. I had a fun time. I don't think it's particularly well written, but that show only really can thrive in an off Broadway setting because the moment you bring it to Broadway, all the problems that it has just get scrutinized. Exactly. The. The moment you put in an Off Broadway house, people have a different attitude towards. Towards it. We're seeing the fun, funky downtown thing. The moment you take it to the Barrymore and you start charging 250 for premium seats, everyone goes, okay, well, show me. Prove it to me.

[C]

Well, that's why I think so many people were so worried about Omari going to Broadway.

[A]

But, yeah, I know I was. And.

[B]

And even talking about, you know, a lot of times, like, so I always look at the show. A show success doesn't necessarily come down to, like, well, who else is doing it? But, like, now we're talking about American Psycho, and we're saying, okay, where are the colleges doing it? Where are the regional theaters? Yeah, there was a D.C. production. There was a lot of Chicago production, but maybe not high schools doing it, but, like, college and beyond, regional theaters or community theaters even. There's a lot of edgier downtown Community theaters that. Why are we. You know, the Addams Family wasn't very successful on Broadway. Ish. But it is the number one high school done show. So you can't always say, oh, if it was wildly successful on Broadway, that translates to regionals getting the rights to doing it. So I. I do sit here and wonder, why is this not really being. Spring Awakening is.

[C]

I think there's a technical element that is probably very hard for colleges or regional theaters to kind of master with the killings.

[A]

I think for me, the barometer of a show's artistic success. There's like. And people want. People truly just want, like a hard metric. They want, like, you know, it made its money, it ran its number performances, it won the Tony, and. And all of those things can help with a case. None of them are a defining factor. Ultimately, it comes down to me of 10 years later, are we all still talking about it? And you, the three of us are today talking about it. But we are talking about it because I picked it out of a bowl. Sally Bowl. Now, Granite Gran. A couple of people submitted American Psycho, but it was not. It was far and away not one of the most submitted titles. That goes to Angels in America. That goes to Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder. I think there's another one that got a whole bunch of submissions, and I didn't end up picking it. But that's sort of like. I think American Psycho got three. But then I had. God, I. I had like 10 submissions for another musical that I can't remember off the top of my head right now. But I was like, the fact that that one had more submissions, but we're doing American Psycho, that's just luck. If it were up to me, I probably wouldn't do an episode about this. Not because I hate it, but because I just don't have a lot of opinions about it as a musical. I say this now that we're on getting closing in on hour two of this recording, but that's also just me and who I am. I can talk for hours about whatever because silence is very upsetting to me, and I hate it.

[C]

So why do you think they wanted to make this a musical?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I really don't. I think that it's just a property that really spoke to. I don't know. Also, I don't know whose idea it was. I don't know if the theatrical rights came up for grabs or the studio that made the movie decided that they wanted to make a show. And because they had seen the money that you can make on Broadway. Making, making a musical out of your previous property, it's just a way to keep the, the title alive to make more money out of it. Even if it doesn't run for five years on Broadway, if it runs for six months, you can do licensing, you can do tours, you can do international productions. It also then draws attention back to the original property, and you can make money out of that. Like, how many copies of the book have been sold since this musical came out? I would argue maybe not millions, but more than what was happening the five years leading up to it. Because the people who came upon the show and love the show wanted to read the book and probably got very upset by the book because the book is far more troubling than the musical ever, ever could be.

[C]

And, and it's like an interesting point, though, because, I mean, it's 2016. We're in, like, the real big boom of, like, film to stage musicals. And it's almost like just one of those things where it's like, oh, let's just throw it on the stage. And then it loses its creativity.

[A]

Yeah. And I will argue this is one because they, they take a lot more from the book than from the movie. So I, I, I will, I will give them the benefit of saying, adapted from the book. Even though there's a. There is a lot of the movie in there, and I think more people are familiar with the movie. This is a much more creative attack, so to speak. Then a. Our favorite show of the day, Back to the Future, or even like a Finding Neverland. Finding Neverland, which had come out the year prior and was closing later that August. You know, that is a show for me that is artistically bankrupt. That was a show that was written by committee. That was Harvey Weinstein being like, I'm gonna be the next David Merrick. Scott Rudin.

[C]

There was a beautiful moment in Finding Never.

[A]

Yes. When she died of glitter cancer. Yeah.

[B]

There was a one.

[A]

It's everyone. It's. Everyone brings that up immediately as their defense to me. And I know I see it coming from a mile away. I'm like, yes. When they threw the glitter to represent her cancer. Totally. Absolutely. It was everything before and everything after that I said kill with fire. Because Back to the Future for me is probably even more upsetting because Back to the Future is a more competent musical than Finding Neverland, but it's just as artistically bankrupt because it is so lazy. American Psycho. I will.

[C]

Laziest thing ever.

[A]

Laziest thing. And anyone who wants to Come for me for it. By all means.

[C]

We get to curse on this podcast. It is the laziest thing is if we, if we did the Broadway breakdown on Grab Bag on Back to the Future, this would have been canceled podcast.

[B]

I, I said, I mean, I, I very heatedly in the beginning of that episode we did on Back to the Future said in the beginning, I am not disrespecting actors and designers and people who are working hard in this industry by saying this, but step, touch, step touch. Got to go back in time. Step touch, step touch. That is not working for a middle school production of Back to the Future.

[C]

I'm sorry, you should go, you should go see Forbidden Broadway just to see how they make fun of Back to the Future.

[B]

They do parody it. Very funny.

[A]

I am very much looking forward to it. I, this, this, this, this podcast is going to have a lot of Forbidden Broadway references throughout because, my God, like, when Forbidden Broadway nails it, they. Oh yes, nail it. And I look forward to seeing their Back to the Future one because I'm sure that Gerard has just a field day with it.

[B]

Oh yeah, there's a lot in that. In this latest one, it's a whole theme.

[A]

I, I talk all the time about how I try not to yuck anybody's yum. I try not to be a condescending prick about things. That, that show is a hard one for me to be considerate about towards people who love it. I under. In this world that we call death. I understand that, like, finding joy wherever you can is a beautiful thing and I'm not trying to take it away from anyone. But this is an industry. I, I feel about it the way that Trey Parker and Matt Stone talked about Family Guy where they're like, we don't necessarily hate Family Guy, but it is really upsetting for us when we try to create these 25 minute stories that cover as many things as we can and have all the jokes be, you know, consistent with character and, and tie into the story and wrap everything up. To have a show like Family Guy where it's really a two minute plot show and everything else is just like random gags and they get millions of views and everybody loves it, like it, it bothers us because we're trying to make something out of a very similar aesthetic. And Family Guy, we find, takes a very lazy approach and, and people will accept it.

[B]

It, I feel like really quick about Family Guy. We literally. Jeff and I just said the other day when Trey Parker, Max Stone did Book of Mormon, it was so successful. They clearly knew how that art form worked. My first question is, why are they not working on their next show? Maybe they are. And my second question being, where is Seth MacFarlane writing on Broadway musical? Because he is so musical theater oriented with Family Guy and maybe he doesn't want to or can't or where Trey Parker, Matt Stone fit into that? I don't know. That could be a whole other episode.

[A]

I can't speak for Seth. I will say Seth is absolutely as much of a musical theater qu as Trey Parker is. Yeah, Trey and Matt. South park is very much their, Their livelihood. And especially now that they have this, like, billion dollar deal, they kind of have to maintain it. They have also said when they work on outside projects, it takes forever because they can't spend every day working on it. Like, Book of Mormon took years because they had to coordinate schedules with Robert Lopez, like every three weeks to, like, have a meeting about it. If, if, if they really just focus on Mormon for like a year and a half, I'm sure that show would have been done in a heartbeat. They also, they write really fast and also, like, they hold themselves to a standard of excellence. Which may sound weird when I talk about south park because, like, that's a show where you had Cartman and Honey Boo Boo Sketty wrestling for Michelle Obama. But, like, they had a point to make about it, about the. How we have lowered the bar in this world and. But they find ways to do it with fun and silliness. But they, they try to have that standard. So for I bring all this back to something like Back to the Future where people like, well, it doesn't have to be Sweeney Todd. I'm like, of course it doesn't have to be Sweeney Todd, but at the very least, it should try to be like Full Monty. It should try to be legally blunt of why is this on stage? What can we do on stage that we can't do in a movie? Legally Blonde has these musical montages and expands the character of Emmett and deepens his relationship with Ellen. Well, there are some things that I think get lost on the stage because you don't have the intimacy and the nuance of film. I think I might be the only person who uses intimacy and nuanced when describing the.

[B]

No, I do too, because I love Lately Blonde the musical.

[A]

I love the humanity and the groundedness of Girl Power of the movie. It's. It's because it's L just doing. Not saying. Whereas in the musical, there are a couple of times where I think l is in the wrong. By being like, hey, Vivian, why'd you rat me out to the professor? Girl power. And I'm like, to write you out. You didn't do the reaction. But. And granted, Vivian does say it, but the show wants Vivian to be a stone cold, like. No, Vivian's right here. She's absolutely right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. This is also a series where I'm gonna be like, hey, the characters you hate in the first act are actually correct. But. But something like. You see something like American Psycho. You see something like Legally Blonde or Full Monty that are like. We're not just gonna rest on you knowing the previous work. We're gonna try to do something with it. How successful it is is up to you. Back to the Future is very much, you know, the movie. Here's that scene. I hate it.

[C]

I know it's.

[B]

And.

[C]

And, like, word for word.

[A]

The scene where he teaches his dad he's got to, like, step up and be a man. And they're doing hanging laundry. They don't have to be hanging laundry. There's no reason in the plot or the dialogue for it to happen. They're doing it because that's what happens in the movie.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Pisses me the off.

[B]

Yeah. And it makes all this funny.

[C]

And you never want to be sitting in a show and be angry with watching what's happening on the stage. And there's only ever been, like, two times that I've been angry. One Back to the Future, and the other is Amelie.

[B]

So he can't stand. He. At intermission. I was there an intermission. I don't know. Jeff wanted to leave.

[C]

I said, we really need to. I've never left a show. I said, we really need to leave because I hate this show so much.

[B]

It was so rough, and it was like.

[C]

And I felt bad because it was like Philippa sue, like, coming out of the Hamilton thing, which she made that choice. Yeah. I didn't really, like, love her in Hamilton anyway, but so to go into Amelie, and then, like, I'm here, and I'm like, no, this is so bad.

[A]

We make our choices. Girlfriend could have opened Great Comet on Broadway with Josh Groban, and that would have been the correct choice. And granted, she's like, I only have one life. I don't want to go backwards. I want to try new things. But also, I'm like, do. Do Great Comet. The only thing I'll say about Amelie, and I hear that they rejiggered it in London, and it works a lot better. So props to you, Mom. Drama. But that year, the 2017 year, I was at a Tony party and we all had to bring food and we had to make it themed for the night. So I made guacamole and I called it guacamole.

[B]

Oh, that's crazy.

[C]

So that's the only good thing that came from the musical.

[A]

The only good thing that came from that goddamn musical.

[B]

And I'll say just a commentary in general on so many things. Like, lest we forget, I always love to spread my history to people when I'm on the podcast. West side Story got mixed reviews and did not win the Tony Award for best musical. The music Manta 1957 Wicked got mixed reviews and lost the Tony Awards. Avenue Q. Look where Wicked is now. And where's Avenue Q? I'm. Avenue Q is amazing.

[C]

Well, I watch Avenue Q every day over. I've been watching.

[B]

The point I'm trying to make is sometimes things are really successful financially and are bad shows and sometimes things are. Are really not successful with awards and last long. It's very. It's. There's no recipe for perfection in this industry, which is why sometimes there could be a show coming that death becomes her. Could be the best thing we. Or it could flop in a week. We don't know. Like, this is just so interesting that even if after we are almost 100 years of doing this, almost at 100 straight years of putting huge mega works on the Broadway stage in New York City in the United States of America, and we still still can't quite figure this formula out, and it's fascinating to me and absolutely fascinating.

[C]

And there's a third show right here that I was angry and I just looked down at the American Psycho playbill, which was Tuck Everlasting, which was another rough one.

[A]

Yeah, Tuck Everlasting didn't make me angry again. I was bored. I. That was also a show where I. I walked Tuck Everlast, actually. So I've said this before. Took Everlasting. I felt Casey Nicholaw got the wrong. Wrong message from. Or sorry, the wrong lesson from. Because after that talk about last thing I saw and I went, this is a six person musical. This ensemble is so unnecessary and you're actually hurting the show by having them do like potashize to like pass the salt at the dinner table. Like, like dancing where it doesn't need to happen. And he didn't get Tony nominated for it and goes on to do other shows with even more unnecessary insane dancing. Like, no, no, Casey, go back to your drowsy Mormon roots of like choreography when it's necessary, have it build, have it be character specific. It's. It's. Don't. Don't try to make an American in Paris for something rotten like that. And I now that he's won for some. For some, like a hot. I'm hoping that he kind of goes back to those roots now. I don't know, because I think he is such a talented choreographer, but Tuck Everlasting made me mad because it's like, I appreciate you taking this big swing. What did we learn? And I felt like he didn't learn.

[C]

But also, he's choreography on speed.

[A]

I mean, yeah, he's also got Tonys and millions of dollars, so, like, he doesn't need to hear from me. But as you said, Jeff, the metrics of success don't always matter. I have. I won't say names. I have friends in this industry who are incredibly successful. I'm talking, like, they won some awards, they own two houses and will text me when something new of theirs drops or something that they're associated with drops. I'll put it that way. I don't want to make it too specific, but, like, something that they're associated with, they drop, like, some material on. I will get a text from them 10 minutes after it comes out on Playbill or Bobby World and be like, did you see it? What do you think? And I'm like, I am sitting on my couch recording a podcast that I'm getting dimes for. You are about to go to X country for this X production of this X thing. You've done. Like, you don't need my. My opinion, but nothing really lasts. Nothing really holds. Nothing can really make you go, well, this has defined that it was good. You are always going to keep asking around and seeing what people are saying about it and. And. And any lasting impact it has. Wicked is still running. The debate continues of is it good or is it just successful? Is it just popular? Especially once something becomes so popular, then the narrative becomes, actually, it's not that good. It doesn't deserve that much success. Right? Like, Hamilton got that kind of backlash of, like, this is not a show that has deserved paying $800 to see.

[B]

Well, let me ask you this question. What is. And I know we're now straight as we're wrapping up here from this American Psycho conversation, but this is also part of the American Psycho chat, too.

[C]

American Psycho fans are going to be.

[A]

Like, what, are they talking?

[B]

No, but this is part of the general picture, you know, to kind of end in this broad painted stroke but the question I have for both of you is, and I can think of my answer to this is, what is a show that every time you see someone, they love it and you don't? Because I can think of a show that every two shows, actually, that everybody, everybody, nine out of 10 people, I love that show. Oh, my God, that show. And I said, I say I don't think I like it. And you. Makes you feel like, whoa, whoa, am I wrong? But no, it's just my opinion. There's got to be a show, right? You have one. Like, I could think of two.

[A]

So this isn't a show that I would say everybody loves, but this is a show that is considered a classic and brilliant and whatnot.

[B]

Not.

[A]

I can't get into the Threepenny Opera. Oh, it is. I just can't. Vile is a. Is a hard composer for me. I enjoy a lot of lady in the Dark and One Touch of Venus. But three Penny Opera is one that I'm aware of its legacy and its importance and its quality. It just doesn't do it for me. I'm sure there are others, but that's the first one that comes to mind.

[B]

It's like, for me, like, and this is. And every, Every time I say this, these two shows, everyone's like, what? And. And I did podcasts on them, and I don't hate them, because I don't hate them. But I'm not the biggest fan of Hadestown.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And I like it. I like parts of it. I like the vision of it. I'm not obsessed with it. And people go back two, three, four, five times. I don't get that, personally. I also didn't have a great seat when I saw it, and I did see the original cast, though, and I appreciated parts of it. The other show, I was just not obsessed with Kimberly Akimbo, though. I liked it. I. I thought it was nice at times, but some people crying, crying, 2, 3, 4, 5. Teach their own. I didn't get the obsession with that either. So, like, it's interesting also in this industry, when I leave a show and it was like, oh, my God, did you love it? Won all these. Tony one. I'm like, yeah, I think. Were we seeing the same show? Because I, I, I liked it, but I didn't love it. So everyone's different, you know, There are.

[A]

Also very few shows that I love that I'm like, if you don't love this, something's wrong with you. Like, Kimberly, I very much enjoyed. But. But I totally get why some People don't like it.

[C]

I knew he was gonna tell Kimberly Akimbo to you.

[A]

But I do also think that Kimberly Kimbo had the benefit of. Of genuinely being the best show that season.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It doesn't mean it's not. It's not even Janine's. I would. It's probably Janine's fourth best musical, I would say. I think.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, I think Carolina or Change is a absolute masterpiece. I think Fun Home is probably the more impenetrable musical. Like, those two are for me, battling out as, like, her top two musicals. Then I would probably say Violet and then Kimberly Akimbo, but I would even.

[B]

Put Millie up there. I think there's some great songs in Millie.

[A]

There's not a single thing Jeanine Tesori has done to the musical theater that is without merit. And I think Millie has so much good in it. Millie is tricky, but with Hadestown, I'm actually in the same boat as you. I. I enjoyed Hadestown. I was not obsessed with it. I think that it is too long. It does not move me. But I think the music is gorgeous.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Jeff, you hate him. You think that I'm trash for liking it? Is that what you're saying?

[C]

No, I just know that you love Kimberly Akimbo, and I knew he was gonna say it on this podcast, so I didn't stop him.

[B]

But I do.

[A]

I do love it. I think my. My. My fandom of it is a little more performative in. Than it is in reality. Like, as much as I do very much like that show. Like, it being the sticker on my phone is not me loving it. It was. It just. It tied in with my phone case, and I needed something.

[C]

Something to maybe I don't mind Kimberly Akimbo. And number a big reason is because I love Bonnie Milligan, and she was great, but.

[A]

And Victoria Clark. You do not end that sentence right.

[C]

I was waiting for Victoria Clark. Although I'm hearing Carolee is better.

[A]

Whoever's saying that, I'm sure loves Jekyll and Hyde.

[C]

Anywho, I was going to say, I have never been a fan of Wicked, and I never got the hype. And I think actually in high school, girls ruined that musical for me because they all thought that they could sing for good together, and they couldn't, and that ruined it even more for me.

[A]

Yeah. Wicked I saw at a very young, impressionable age. I saw it before it became the thing. I saw, like, last week of previews with the entire original company at the Sexy age of 13 so like, you know that I was just like core memory. And. And then I saw it again right after Cheno left and it was Jennifer Laura Thompson. So they like, it was still pretty tight. I had not seen it again until about two years ago. And I gotta say that it did not hold up for me. This. I still think there are some songs in that when I listen to the original company, like Schwartz knows how to write a goddamn tune. It's orchestrated brilliantly.

[B]

Oh, orchestration.

[A]

Yeah. Original cast sings it beautifully. And also like that original cast had a personality to it that I feel like not all the replacements always get. But you know, Wicked isn't Wicked. Both like, I understand the success. I am a part of the reason why it has that success. But. And also I'm like, it's not.

[B]

I always try to.

[C]

I just get annoyed when people come and they're like, oh, I'm going like they come to New York and they're like, oh, I'm going to see Wicked. I'm like, but there's so much more.

[B]

But I. And that's what I try to do is I try to get into the minds of. I call them the bridge and tunnelers or the people that we know that are not necessarily tourists. But I have a friend that has seen wicked like 10 times and I'll say, oh, you should go see Blank. You should go see Blank.

[C]

No, I'm just gonna see Wicked.

[B]

They love. It's a, it's a comfort for people. It's a safety thing. If I'm gonna go see a show, I know what I'm gonna get out of it. And I'll spend the 200 on the orchestra seat. You know, there's a whole psychology to that.

[C]

But I also think this kind of brings it back full circle to American Psycho of how many other new shows were on Broadway at the same time that people are gonna go see. If. If someone only sees one show a year and it's. And they're gonna pick from the new musicals, are they picking American Psycho? And then you're also still competing with the long running giants that were still all playing on Broadway at the time. I mean, I think that's a big factor we have to take into account with a show's kind of success as well.

[A]

Yeah, there is nothing comforting about American Psycho. The best thing you can can say in that respect is in that original production, Benjamin Walker and I didn't get a really chance to talk about this before.

[B]

We didn't talk about him much.

[C]

Benjamin.

[A]

Well, so Benjamin was somebody who everyone was like, he's going to get Tony nominated. He honestly could be a front runner. Didn't end up happening. And I looked at the lineup, and I'm like, at the time, I understood why it was the lineup that it was. I think in retrospect, we could have absolutely kicked out Zachary Levi for Benjamin Walker. A. I don't think Zachary was great and she loves me. Part of that is because. Because Benanti is such a powerful presence on stage that their dynamic was off. Like, she just mopped the floor with him the entire time.

[B]

Correct. You're right.

[A]

Which, like. And also part of that is direction. Like, Ellis could have said to be Nanti, I need you to tone down your strength because Zach can't dial up to you. And we need us to be even. But that never happened. So Benanti is just being her powerful self and Levi's, like, whimpering in the corner. But then also, like, now, as we get into our world, you're of 2024. We know that Levi is not a person that we love to endorse. So, like, yeah, pick him out of everything now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Walker, I'm happy to. To put in instead of Levi. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean?

[B]

You're the top.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top.

[A]

You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread under Walker's performance, I think helps American Psycho as a musical, but it for me, just isn't terribly Patrick Bateman, because he goes for a bit softer in the show and, like, definitely goes for the arc of his breaking down and finding the humanity in him. And if you watch the movie with Christian Bale, what makes Bale so terrifying and also so. So funny is how odd he is. And he describes his performance. He said the way he approached Patrick Bateman was as if Bateman were an alien who landed on Earth, looked around and saw what the culture was and figured figured out how to acclimate. So everything is studied and, like, out of a textbook. It's not real. It's not to kick a dead, unvaccinated horse, but it's what I call the Laura Osnes syndrome of, like, everything I've ever seen. And it's why I was very glad that we all canceled her, because I was like, oh, can I finally openly speak about how I feel about her as performance? Former beautiful girl, beautiful voice. But every time I saw her on stage, I never bought anything she did for a second because it all was, technically speaking, correct. But it all felt like what you would read out of a book of emotion of like, oh, when people are upset, they lift their hand and do this when people want to. When people are feeling overwhelmed, they tilt their head to the left and like, turn around. I'm like, this all is not incorrect, but it all just feels studied. And so. Yeah, what's what.

[C]

So Bandstand.

[A]

So I don't wanna talk about Bandstand.

[B]

But she played Cinderella. And listen, okay, that was a very.

[A]

Good use of her.

[B]

Right? Because that was what she could do. And. And singing Roger Hammerstein's score in my own little corner. Sure, that. Check the box.

[A]

She. She plays sweet, she plays innocent, she plays kind. And. And all the emotions in Cinderella are two dimensional. They're not totally cartoonish, but they don't go deep. Like, you would want her to play Cinderella. You wouldn't want her to play Julie Jordan. You want her to play. Yeah, you want her to play the idea of a human being, not an actual human being. And everyone in a fairy tale is the idea of a human being in the same way that like in American Psycho, everyone is the idea of these. Of these.

[B]

And I'll say about Benjamin Walker, a very attractive, good actor. Yes. Could have been nominated, but also, I understand it wasn't quite the Patrick Bateman. And also, just to throw this chair in the cake, where has Benjamin Walker been?

[A]

Oh, around. Well, he's more of a movie actor.

[B]

Oh, he does film now. Okay. I haven't seen him in the theater space.

[A]

He. He did do All My Sons, which I think he was nominated for.

[B]

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

[A]

He doesn't. He does theater, but film is always calling him him. And in fact, that was why Matt Smith played Patrick Bateman in London was because Walker wasn't available.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So. I know, I know. Okay.

[A]

And I wish I could find video of Smith because on the cast recording, I actually really like how Matt Smith does Patrick's dialogue. And he sings quite well too. But you get. You have this very zeroed in energy about mask method. Like everything is laser focused, which is what makes him scary. And also very funny because he solely focused on the dumbest shit. And Walker, when Walker begins the show, I kind of get that alien zeroed in energy. And then the moment the opening song happens, I think it's called Selling out, which was new for Broadway, but that wasn't in the London production. That's when it all kind of starts to get softened for me, which again, make is correct for a musical version of American Psycho. You need something to latch onto. But it doesn't make him successful as Patrick Bateman. For me, it makes him a success. Sorry. Makes him a successful Patrick Bateman in the context of this being a musical. But I think, because I also just don't buy that this should be a musical, it doesn't make him a successful Patrick Bateman in general. For me.

[B]

I hear that totally makes sense.

[A]

Okay, great. I want to make sure that that made any.

[B]

No, that made. I connected. That. Yep.

[A]

Fantastic.

[B]

Fantastic. And that. And side note about Benjamin Walker, True or false was in Andrew. Bloody. Bloody Andrew Jackson.

[A]

He sure was.

[B]

And was he Andrew Jackson?

[A]

He was.

[B]

And was he Tony nominated?

[A]

He was not.

[B]

Okay, so this is a shame then. He has been playing some pretty big roles and hasn't quite gotten that Tony. No, not that you need a Tony, but in this industry nowadays, kind of sometimes you need that. So that's why I wonder, like, what could he be his next leading male role? I mean, I don't know.

[A]

You know, I think that a lot of people view his. His nominate because I should look this up. I am almost positive his nomination was for All My Sons, which he was buying.

[B]

And I remember that. I do. That was the recent revival on.

[A]

Yeah, the one with Tracy Letson, Annette Benning, where if I'm honest. Yeah, yeah. It was All My Sons. If I'm being honest, I thought that the person who walked away with that production was Michael Hayden. And it's not just because I love me some Hayden, but he genuinely was the best performance in the show. But Walker getting nominated for All My Sons, for a lot of fans of him, it was similar to how we all felt when Emily Blunt got nominated for Oppenheimer. We were like, finally, she's an Oscar nominee.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it's for this. Okay, I'm not mad, but we all know she has like four other performances that could have happened.

[B]

This just popped my mind, like, why Stephanie J. Block obviously deserves a Tony Award, but why did she get it for this year? So I don't really get that. Because she could have wanted for any eight other things.

[A]

That's how I feel about Lindsay Meadows with Carousel. I'm like, I'm so thrilled that Lindsay's a Tony winner. Wish it was for a different show.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, it could have been for Merrily, but it wasn't. But right. Like, what other things could.

[A]

I can't talk about this past Tony's just yet. I already did my 5000 hour episode about it. But also, like, I need another two Years to look back and be like, how do I really feel? Because there are some people I'm happy they won, some people I'm not. Not. And some people, like, am I happy?

[B]

I don't know. I. The biggest takeaway for me is I really, really do think, and I've been saying this, that, oh, my God, I'm totally forgetting her name. Should have won for the Notebook over Malaya Joy Moon.

[A]

Oh, Marianne Plunkett.

[B]

Marianne Plunkett. I do think. I do think that should have went that way. That was just the one thing. I. I do think Keisha Lewis totally deserved it for Al's Kitchen. But I don't know.

[A]

To me, carrying that. That show on her goddamn shoulders. Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. I just thought that should have went to her in the Notebook.

[A]

Tony's really loved Tweet, Anoint the ingenue of the year. And I think if Marianne Plunkett had 90 seconds worth more music in the show, she really could have.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Which is. That is not me saying that's what a change Notebook needed to make. Artistically, what they have her saying is absolutely. It absolutely works. I have notes about the Notebook. I have no notes about how they do that role and how Maryam plays it.

[B]

Yes. You're so right that I have no notes on anything she does or that role. I have many notes on other parts of the show.

[A]

But, yes, if they brought me in to be like, what can we do in the show to ensure that Marianne wins the Tony? I'd be like, you need to have her sing 90 seconds worth more music.

[B]

Yeah. And it didn't need to be a whole 11:00 clock number other than just like another minute or two. Exactly.

[A]

Absolutely. But I'm. She should have once. You should have won best acting in a musical that season. I will say it's dead. Say.

[B]

But, like, I understand what you're saying. Like, the Malaya Journey movement. Winning, giving that. But then like, okay, it's like, Miles Frost won for mj, Right. Like, now, where has my Miles Frost? But, like, I'm not saying they have to immediately do something again, but to me, I look at it like, okay, I like seeing Bonnie Milligan doing things because she just won. I like seeing Alex Newell doing. Like, to me, I'm always like, when they win the Tony, of course, go take a few months and, like, enjoy that. But then, like, let's see, do something. You just won the Tony. Whether it's film, theater, music, whatever industry, when people want a Tony and disappear, I'm always like, like, sarah Ramirez wins the Tony for Spamalot and we never see her again in Broadway.

[A]

And I'm like that, that person took that Tony and ran away to TV money as fast as they.

[B]

I get it and I totally get it. But I'm like, you have the highest honor in this industry as an award winner that not many, many people can say they won to meet. Audra McDonald doesn't stop working on Broadway. She goes and does TV and she has 37 Tony Awards, right? So like to me, I don't know, I look at it very like that. I don't know, it's.

[A]

Well, it's a combination of things. It can tell you sort of where that art artists perspective is like where they're. What's the word I'm looking for? Where their prospects lie or not that, but priority. Where their priorities.

[B]

Yep, yep.

[A]

And then sometimes it's that the industry fails them. There are some people who want Tony's and then we just didn't know what to do with them. Like we probably didn't know what to do with Marissa Jarrett Winoker after Hairspray. But also, but also she wrongfully, in my opinion, took that Tony and ran to Hollywood where they also didn't know what to do with her. Like Broadway. It could have taken a little bit longer, but we could have built something around her. Hollywood is like, you get to be on a TV show and if that bombs, sorry, ma', am. Take your Tony. Go.

[B]

The man who won. Oh my God, I can't believe I'm forgetting his name. Who won for once?

[A]

Steve Kazi.

[B]

I bought okay, I b my eyes out when he did that role and I bought my eyes out of his Tony speech about his mother. I remember being like, oh my God, he. Here he is. Tony would end up. And yes, TV and movies got him. Where has he been? On a stage. I'm dying to see him in a show again. Like, I just get so excited for Tony winners and then I want to see what their next thing is and half of them just like dip out. I don't like that.

[A]

Richie. I think after this episode you're gonna go on a Internet deep dive of some of these people and you're gonna get a little sad when you find out what's been happening.

[B]

I know what they're doing.

[A]

I'm not gonna say it. I'm like, you have mentioned two people that I know what happened and like it's not. We're not talking like Fantine esque tragedy like things.

[B]

No, I know, I know, but I.

[A]

But I hear You. I hear you. I think. I think what also makes American Psycho kind of frustrating for a lot of people, maybe why it got such a rebuttal from people like the Tony Awards is whispering, awakening. It was this very special entity at the time was all these young actors who had promising careers. We brought in Duncan Chic from, you know, the indie pop world, and he, you know, made a success with it. And we finally were able to give Michael Mayer his Tony for direction was like, okay, everyone's getting their blue chip to invest wisely. Like, we are telling everyone involved, we believe in you. You've done something. You held out till springtime. The show finally, like, is a success. It's going to make its money back. We. We have showed the industry that you can make something like this and make it a success. Now. Everyone involved, involved, go and do your thing. Mayer, for a while, was able to cash in on that. I would argue probably not since Hedvig, but still, that's like nine years of cashing in. I think that a lot of that cast, it took some of them a little bit longer, but most of that cast has been able to cash in and have some very prominently famous careers, but others more just like working actor, but successful careers. And that's great. Steve Sader, I think we're sort of on the fence about, because he keeps coming back, but never with anything big and everything totally successful. She came back a couple years later with a big thing. It worked for some people. A great deal. A lot of people it did not. And it was sort of like, I'm mad at you. We. We were so happy to have you come back, and this is what you're doing. And. And. And not only. And not only are you doing it. You are not listening to anybody who has been like, you went away. And those of us who stuck around and, like, did all the things. We're telling you our honest opinion, and your response is, well, the cool kids like it.

[B]

It.

[A]

This is Broadway. We are the cool kids that. We are the Plastics.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. Don't. You don't get to come in from a new school and tell me that that table is the cool kids of all, like, the transfer students of this year. No, no, no, no, no.

[B]

But if you opened the Tomorrow playbill.com and read Duncan Chic new musical to come in 2026, would there be a part of you that would say, oh, cool. Or would you be like, no, I'm good.

[A]

I would be. I would be the same way. I'm about. With just about everything. Which is. Which is. Which is you get burned so many times. You can only see women on the verge and love music so many times before you're like, okay, I have to be respectful. So I go in open mind, arm's length. That is my mantra and has been for the last two years, open mind.

[B]

It has to be for everything on Broadway. Now you have to go in with a bar set slightly lower. And then arm's length and a deep breath and. Yeah, yeah. And then if you're surprised and happy, then, oh, how good does it feel to leave? Feeling good then, you know?

[A]

But that's also why when people ask me what I recommend and people go, oh, well, you know, I really liked it. Yeah, I wouldn't tell anyone to pay that much money for it. But, like, I. I had a good time. I'm like, the people who are asking me what to see have to pay that much money. They don't have access to tdf. They don't get to come in the city and chance at a TKTS or do the rush line. Like, they're buying their tickets in advance, so they're paying minimum 150 a seat. I'm thinking to myself, what can I honestly tell them to see? And. And so that is, again, something like bringing to American Psycho. I just. Something like this I could not tell someone to drop 150 for.

[B]

Right, right, right. It's a shame. But, yes, I agree with you on that. And it was like. It was kind of like, you never want to be like, oh, if you see a cheap TDF ticket, then go. But if you don't, like. Yeah, I don't want to say that.

[A]

But I always say that in terms of, like, taking a chance because I can't predict what people might like. Obviously, I go with my gut of what I enjoyed. And then I try to. To take people's taste level into account. Not level, but, like, their tastes into account. So when I. When I say, like, yeah, see if you can find a cheap ticket, it's more like, I don't know how you're gonna feel. So, like, try not to spend too much, because if you hate it, I don't want you to feel resentful. And if you like it, like, amazing, you lucked out on a cheap ticket or something you loved. But it's very rare when I'm like, I know for a fact that this is gonna blow your socks off. And if you can only get. If you can only find a $200 ticket, it take it, right? I. I can't tell you last time, I really genuinely.

[B]

I know, I know, I know. I totally hear you on that. Jeff and I talk about this all the time. It's like, what is that? Yes, you must go spend $200. You have to go spend $200 and find $200 somewhere and go get a side.

[C]

I would say the most recent thing, though, that we probably have said that for is, like, we tell a bunch of friends like, that still have not seen oh Mary. We're like, like, you need to see Cole and Omari. And they're like, okay. And they keep looking for tickets, and they just can't find it. And I'm like, all right, well, I mean, you can spend the money. I think it's well worth it.

[A]

I don't know if I could tell anyone to pay 250 to see O Mary. I don't know, like, price point. If someone were like, oh, I found $150 ticket for Omari. It's like, you know, mid mez towards the back in, like, four months from now. I'm like, yeah, great, right? That's a good seat. That's a good deal. Especially, like, it's all relative. Right, Right. But the moment someone's like, ooh, 275 for, like, front of meds for next week, should I. I'd be like, I can't rightfully say yes because I. That's just. That becomes a price point that I. I can't justify. I fucking saw Hamilton Off Broadway. I saw Hamilton the night before it opened on the. On Broadway with the original company. We paid $130 for third Romes Center. I could not tell you that I would tell anyone to see that show for $300, no matter who was in the cast, fast. That's just a price point that I can't.

[B]

For me, I do think in my head, like, yeah, what is the max for any show to say I can't, like, because I don't spend 300 on an orchestra seat. I don't think I ever have. I think we did spend 150 for. Yeah. Front or Hamilton.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Original cast. Now that same seat is double. And I'm like, it's great. No disrespect to anything happening on the stage, but.

[C]

Yeah, you're, like, not even original because Jonathan, like, left before.

[B]

Jonathan had left right away. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, so did you have Andrew?

[B]

Rory.

[A]

Rory was probably really good.

[B]

He was great.

[A]

Yeah. They cast George bell, like, for 300c American Psycho. I better be getting a pass to Benjamin Walker's dressing room as he washes the blood off. Like, that's right.

[B]

Right. But then I say, like, then you do hear that with this sunset revival, it's worth it to spend the 300 to sit and see Nicole do it. I'm hearing that. I've heard Audra. People will say, yes, yes, ghost. But you know, there are some things lingering maybe.

[A]

I don't know, Richie, I don't trust any of these that say that. I really don't.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I don't trust any of these gays who, who went to that first preview and they were like, spend whatever you can to see this. It's worth it. I really don't trust them.

[B]

And why? And why? I'm curious to know why.

[A]

Why, like, why should I like it? It. It's. It. It's people who I love and who I respect truly, deeply, but, like, spent the money to go to the first night so they could be able to say that, so they could post on.

[C]

That's what I said to Richie too. I said, no, they just to be there the first.

[B]

And I saw, I think I knew 30 people there that I. And I was literally like, oh. Because we usually go at a very late preview or right after opening when a lot of press and podcasters and go. So we wait and wait. Someone's like, when are you going? Are you going this week? I'm like, it doesn't open until the end of October. It's got three weeks of previews. Like, well, I'm not going till the end of October. And so I'm like, of course I'm going to go. But yeah. How many people will be at the first preview of Audrey and Gypsy? A million.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, not a million.

[A]

52 people. Jazz, does that make you happy?

[B]

Yeah. Everybody who will go see Whoopi Goldberg and Annie first, maybe, you know, I don't know. Like, I'm thinking of like big star studded things. Who wants to say they were the first one to be there?

[A]

So again, but to bring it to American Psycho.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

I go, I go. I go. Well, and I only say this because I know you guys eventually have to head out, so we gotta.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

But yes. Like, honestly, I could keep going for another hour if I. If you asked me to, but I know you have to go, so. But again, I'm. I remember when it was happening, but this was to sort of jog my memory for the episode. You look at the early posts about it from previews and people are talking about how, like, it's amazing. It works. My God. Like what they said in London is true and like it got fine reviews in London. It sold out. The thing about American cycle that people like to talk about is like everywhere it goes, it sells out. It sells out in these five week increments for subscriber based houses in small theaters. The moment they put it in an 1100 seat theater on Broadway in an open ended run, demand was not really there. But the first two, two previews were sold out and people like, oh, that's a really great sign of things to come. Like, no, those are the people who wanted to be there first. Getting there and seeing it after that once, like once, once. The privilege of, of being the first two audiences to see it is gone. There's not a lot of incentive. And you, as each preview continued, you started to get one or two people who would come in with their thoughts that were not robust raves. We're always trying to see this with Sunset. Like already a couple of previews have happened where people were like, Nicole is great. They're like, I have things with the production, I have things with the show, I have all these other things. But like, you can't ever trust the first two previews because the excitement of being the first ones is always going to be there. And then the fact that no one knows what to expect, it triggers some kind of crazy response. I remember the first preview of Funny Girl. People coming out at intermission and like taking to Twitter, being like, they've done it. She's the next big thing. It's amazing. And nothing changed from that first preview to when I saw it a month later.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But I'll tell you, it was not the next best thing.

[B]

Right. Right.

[A]

The only thing I would say, the only thing that really kind of lived up to the hype for me was when Leah went into the show. But I saw Leah twice because I had a friend go in towards the end of Leah's run and like Leah was still wonderful by that following May, but it was not as good as it was that September. And I'm happy to say that. So like when people saw Leah's performance, like, no, she was born to do this. And then I saw her three weeks later, I'm like, yeah, no, she's phenomenal.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I see it six months later, I'm like, she's not quite as phenomenal anymore.

[C]

Something's tired. Yeah.

[A]

A long run.

[C]

Yeah. In the beginning we, when we saw too, didn't we go in the September when she was in and we Were like, stan. Oh, yeah, yeah. But that is a lot of issues with the hype building around things especially. I think, like a recent show for us was the Notebook, where there was so much hype building in the beginning from like the Chicago audiences that raved and loved it in and said, it's like one of the greatest things ever. And then it coming and it opening and the girls being like on Instagram with their tissue box. I cried the whole time. I'm like, I didn't cry once. What do you mean? So it's like something like this with American Psycho. Yeah, I think there were the hype builders in the beginning. I mean, we were kind of two of them where we first saw it and we were like, wow, this is great. Because we haven't seen something like this on Broadway where there's blood and this and that. And like, we're telling everyone about it, especially the horror film fans where they're like, oh, there's something for you on Broadway right now. Go check it out.

[A]

Yeah. There's also this narrative that people like to say that American Psycho brought in a new audience that are brought in a young audience. Every show brings in new people and young audiences. Coming to Broadway is. Is nothing new. Spring Awakening brought in the whole teenage crowd. Next normal whole teenage crowd. We have this with outsiders and newsies. Right. I think the new thing is young women going hard in on one show a season and that and that show being like their whole identity. I don't. I only say this because they are the ones who are more prominently on social media. I don't see a lot of young gay boys on social media with. With musical theater. So it's entirely possible that I'm. I'm just doing an umbrella statement about this and I'm being unfair. I'm just going off of what I see. But it's like every season with. With the young ones, it's like one big show. That's their thing. They go really hard in on it and then the next year they forget about it and then they do the next thing, which it's.

[B]

It's the Jeremy Jordan effect on Gatsby. Every young high school college girl loves Jeremy Jordan. And it's pulling in a million dollars a week for a show that did horrible in the Tony one Tony Award, which is. And it got bad review. Mixed reviews. But. But yes, if there is this like mommy and daddy's credit card if you're between the ages of like 14 and 24. And yeah, there is a whole push of I'm not saying.

[C]

Do you still get mommy and daddy's credit card in your 20s?

[B]

I don't know. Some people do.

[A]

You're 17. Yeah, I think. But I, I think that there are some shows that have come out recently that are very lucky that they can capture the eye of a young theater fan that also can give the parents something to enjoy. So Gatsby at the very least, like there's a spectacle element to it and it's based off of a book that they all know. Is it good? So the. But like other things like let's say Outsiders. Yeah, Outsiders, I think is a better example.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

A show that I think is much better and more successful based off of maybe also a classic book, but not as classic and well regarded as Gatsby. But has that young theater fans really love the boys in it. They love the energy of it and parents really love the stage crafts of it and, and find themselves probably going into lowered expectations and enjoying it way more than they ever thought. I would love it if theater fans on the young side similar as you're saying of people who come in and see Wicked three times a year. Again, not trying to yuck anybody's yum. You only have. Have so many minutes on this earth and Lord knows you can go back to the things that bring you comfort. It's why I, you know, rewatch Sex and the City all the time. I watch movies I love all the time, but those also are things that I'm not spending hundreds of dollars on. I can also stop them at any given moment. I'm not coming into the city to, to do that. I'm. I'm speaking from place of privilege that I'm here. I've been fortunate to sometimes get comps to see shows for cheap, but I try to see as many things as I can because you only, you want to, you want to experience as much as you can. And I, I think that seeing the ninth cast of a show you've seen before is not anywhere as cool as, as taking a chance on something new. And even if you don't like it, that informs you of something about you you maybe didn't know before. Oh, now I know. I don't like this kind of thing.

[C]

Yeah, it helps to create an actual opinion on something rather than you just comparing it to one show. I mean like, it's like everyone that keeps going back to see Little Shop just because like someone new is going into the roles and I'm like, it's still.

[B]

But I have to go back to. I Have to go back to Little Shop for Sherry Renee Scott.

[A]

Yes. Richie and Jeff, you are both absolutely correct. I am not someone who wants to go back for every single person, but I absolutely have to go back for Sherry.

[C]

Yeah. She's, like, coming. She's coming out of the grave.

[A]

So, like, hello, I will say. I, I, I. So I recently saw it. I had. I saw it with Tammy and Christian, and I enjoyed it, but I was a little underwhelmed. And then I saw it again for the first time a couple of weeks ago with Sarah Hyland and Andrew Barth Feldman. And they were. They were good. But the production surprised me. I was surprised at how much more fun I had this time. And I'm like, oh, I. This might be a show that I'd be willing to go see again for, like, the right person. I'm not gonna go for every new Audrey and Seymour.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But part of the reason why I didn't jump at a chance to see Evan Rachel Wood was I was like, I. I think the production is fine. I was in love with it. I'm sure it's all going to be okay. And then everyone I know involved in that production was like, no, no, you don't understand. Evan is the best Audrey we've ever had. You her. And then I kicked myself forever. So now I'm like, no, I'm going to jump to see Sherry. I will. But I hear you, Jeff. Like, I'm not. I don't. I don't see the point in seeing one show a million times. I saw Fun Home on Broadway six times in the year and a half that it ran, but I did that while also seeing so many other things. And me seeing Fun Home six times was also me bringing people to see it. Like, I. Yeah, I. I had something great. Yeah.

[C]

Because we do see everything. So it's very different for us. We're talking literally about the people that maybe see one to two shows a year, and it's still like Wicked. And then they see one other thing. Like, why are you seeing Wicked every year?

[A]

I don't. I. That's why. I never understood the Phantom fans who, like, saw fandom 300 times. And like, well, I did see other shows. I was like, well, yeah, but you also, like, you came to New York for a week and three of those days, you saw Phantom.

[B]

But part of me is like, if you love something truly, like, listen, I. There's like, why don't you make it every five years? You know, you saw what. You saw the Rockettes every five Years with your grandkids or you went to Wicked every five. I don't know. Or three years. I don't know. Like, to go multiple times in one year when there's 41 Broadway houses, countless Off Broadway houses, There's so much to see in the city. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's all about balance. It's all about spacing and. And think of it more, like, as a treat. Oh, I love Wicked. And I come into the city twice a year for a week each to see shows. I'm like, okay, how about you treat yourself at the end of each trip with Wicked, and before that, you see, you take a chance on three shows.

[B]

Correct? Correct.

[A]

I think that's a beautiful balance, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because. Because if it's just Wicked, if it's just. Just Phantom, if it's just. There are people who, like, only come into New York to see Back to the Future for, like, the 30th time, I'm like, or Beetlejuice. People who've seen Beetlejuice million times, like. Or Mean Girls. Like, you aren't a theater fan. You just like that one show, which is. You can like that one show, but don't come in and be like, I love theater. I see this show every year. I'm like, no, there's theaters. More than just that.

[B]

Or, I can do you one better. I know people who live in cities, and when the tourists come through the cities, they just say, oh, Wicked's back. Jersey Boys is back. I'm going to the city to see. Or Hamilton's back. Or, like, Aladdin is back. And I'm like, great. But, like, there's other things touring that you can see. Like, but they just go when that comes into their hometown.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know why that's become the M.O. with theater, as well as the. Let's hold a lower bar and just accept. And turn off all accountability and just be like, I accept it for what it is and why we're not doing that with movies. Like, movies are cheaper, and yet we're, like, holding them to a higher standard. And. And there are more. And there are more movies. And yet we're still being like, well, this isn't as good as, like, people are doing video essays, deconstructing every dumbass romantic comedy on Netflix. But with theater, we're like, well, a lot of time and work went into it. So even though it's absolute, some people say it's absolute garbage. I'm gonna find the positive. Like, no, you can have an Objective opinion and like, look for the things that make it weak because you can. It gives you an informed opinion about yourself. It gives you an informed opinion about your taste. And you hold, hold the people making this accountable to work harder the next time. You can be so talented and make a piece of crap. Sondheim did it. Anyone can do it. Rogers and Hammerstein did it. Anyone can do it. It doesn't mean you're untalented. It just means sometimes the bake failed and you can make a better bake. Bake Off. People have one Star Baker at the very end and have come in the bottom in challenges. It happens.

[B]

And, and not to mention, like with American Psycho, like with Duncan, like, that's why, yeah, he made a great thing. This wasn't as great. But then, yeah, you hear the comments like, oh, musical theater. So, like, where does he go next? If anything?

[C]

That's the big thing we talk about all the time on our podcast. Like, with each show is like, we. I think we spend more time talking about the actual creatives on who made the show rather than the actual performances in the show because they can only be held accountable for so much it. What is the meat and potatoes in the show and who put it there? You know, and I don't think enough people talk about that. You know, there were choices referenced the Notebook, except again, that were made to that stage production and we were like, why did they do that when you had such an amazing film, the book was loved and then you have this stage show and you're like, so many plot points were moved around and missed.

[B]

You know, we, we really quick. We. We talked about this with some Like It Hot because we had never seen the movies. Like, let's watch the movie before we go to the musical. And there was. That's. Do you. Have you seen the movie?

[A]

Of course I've seen the movie many, many times.

[B]

So the scene where they're all in the train car, sleeper car, and they're in. In the beds and they're. And I'm like, oh, my God, Jeff, this is going to be amazing. It'll be like, shuffle off to Buffalo in 40 seconds to. They'll all be in the beds. It'll be so cute. It'll probably be this great musical number. Oh, imagine the scene in the beds. And we get to the Broadway stage and it was nowhere to be found in the Broadway show. And it's like, what a hilarious scene in the movie that was just completely omitted from the stage. So, like, you wonder things why something's.

[C]

Translated but they also basically removed anything funny from the film.

[A]

I have a lot of negative opinions about the stage version of something like It Hot. And I can't get into it right now because we have. We are going to our last. But. But I also wanted. I will say also, I wanted to sound like It Hot in a super depressed state. Like, I was the lowest I had been emotionally at that point. My situationship had blown up in my face like a week prior to. And I was so ready for it to just take me out of the doldrums. And it didn't. So not only was I like this show for me is disappointing. I'm now mad that it didn't do what I really wanted it to do, which is unfair to it. But I was. But I do think that that show has a lot of issues and we can talk about that in another episode one day. But yeah, I guess so. Final thing, somebody mentioned on the Discord that I know idea. So, like, Roberto, he writes Riverdale, which is super popular and then becomes like super ridiculed over time because it just goes into the deep end. But apparently they have all these musical episodes.

[C]

Yeah, supposedly. I mean, I don't watch the show, so I can't really talk on it. I know they did the Heather's episode, which was very big among the kids that watch it. I didn't know that they did.

[A]

They apparently did an American Psycho episode, which makes sense because no, Roberto wrote it. But they were like, oh, can you talk about it? I was like, no, I can't talk about it. I don't know what. What it is. Yeah, I found. I found one video of the girls in the show doing you are what you wear. I was like, correct song to do. But of course it's a shortened version because tv. But I was like, I don't know what the context for this is. I just know that, like, this is the best song in the show. So go off. Yeah. I don't know what the legacy of the show is quite yet. It's been nine years. A year and a half of that got lost to Covid, so who's to say? But it's. It's a show that I feel like, like a Carrie, like a Heather has a very passionate fan base, isn't as large as Heather is. Not yet anyway. And I'll be interested to see if this comes back in some respects to New York and if it does, what everyone will say about it. Because I haven't seen a lot of people online change their mind about it. Of like, oh, I gave it another shot. And I actually really enjoyed it. It's more like I still feel how I felt last time. And I'm. I'm one of those people.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And there is some. Is there a correct rumor about an immersive off Broadway production and.

[A]

Well, there was that immersive that Richie mentioned that. I don't think that was off Broadway. That was.

[B]

It was either. It was the Chicago or the D.C. when they recently did. I'm pretty sure that was the 80s club immersion. Yeah, I think there was. They did it already.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

I could be wrong. I could be wrong, but it could.

[A]

Be that it's coming and they haven't done it yet. But I know DC, I think, was the last production, major production to be done. I don't know if that was immersive or not. I know the. Roberto mentioned the bluff and said there was a lot of it, so. Great. I'll look that up later. I had it in my notes, but my notes are all muddled at the end, much like the ending of American Psycho. So on theme, on brand. But yeah, I mean, it's. It's being done. It's not being done a lot. But I think that also just the subject matter and the physical necessities of the show make it a hindrance to a lot of companies to do so. I don't think this is ever, like, this is never going to be. Be an Oklahoma because just of what it is. So I think the best case scenario is that this becomes like a niche cult musical, which it's starting to be. But I don't know. I have yet to see a really major footprint on it. Maybe I'm just blind and I've been in my own bubble, but I'm like, I'm not a teenager, so I don't listen to River. I don't watch Riverdale. I don't know. I don't know. I'm just going off of what I see.

[B]

Totally.

[C]

I think that kind of goes back to the music in general. Like, most of the music in general. This score is not memorable at all. So, like, we're not listening to it daily, whereas there are other shows that you can listen to the soundtrack and enjoy it on its own.

[A]

So, like, how do you keep that.

[C]

Going for a show like this?

[A]

Yeah, well, again, it's the techno coldness of so much of that score makes sense dramaturgically, but it chemically keeps me in my seat other than the one we love. But, yeah, like, again, it's me. Something to Be like, I get how we got here and I don't disagree. But also, like, it's. It's just for me, it's just not doing anything. It's just if the whole show for me feels like walking on the treadmill at 4 mph, like at barely an incline, like, it's moving, it's happening, it's going, but like, like not breaking a sweat, no resistance, no tension, no drama. And. And this is not a story that. Where you want to be saying that, right? Yeah, but like, not without merits. Again, that. Oh, God, Patrick. College line. I'm going to quote it to the Till I'm dead.

[B]

Love it, Love it.

[A]

Hardest bodies ever seen on stage with this show. Like, every person in this, I don't think ate a carb for a year. I think they spent nine hours at the gym every day. Exfoliating at the spa every day. Like, no body hair either.

[B]

No, I know. I remember that. I'd be like, oof, wow.

[A]

I was like, oh, we're really in the 80s. Y' all are sugaring. Jeff, Richie, this has been a blast. Thank you so much for indulging me and going longer than we planned.

[B]

It's okay. No, it's totally okay. We could keep talking. We have to do this again sometime. For sure.

[A]

We're absolutely gonna do this.

[B]

This will be so fun.

[A]

I need you. I need you to have me back on half hour for a special hour. That's.

[B]

We should do a special hour of half hour. I like that.

[C]

The special hour.

[A]

Yeah, this week on a very special half hour. An hour, people. So where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[B]

Jeff, you want to give the deets?

[C]

Well, you can find us at half hour with Jeff and Richie. That's the podcast name. And you can find us on the Broadway podcast network along with Matt's podcast, obviously, and you know, Spotify, Apple Music, and also follow us on Instagram at half hour podcast. We love engaging with the listeners.

[A]

Yeah. If you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram only at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, give us a nice 5 star rating or review. Make sure to join the Discord Channel. The link for that will be in the episode page. Also, if you haven't yet, now would be a great time to donate to the Yours Truly fundraiser. That is the fundraiser for my play, which we are doing the live stream reading of in November. November 16th, I believe we. So last I recorded, I. We had raised almost 900 with nine donors. We now are at 13 donors and are at almost $1200. Yeah. Really exciting. And we just launched this, like, a little less than a week ago, so it's very, very exciting.

[B]

What's the name of the player they love you people.

[A]

People love me. Yes. The name of the play is called Yours truly, with a nice little comma between the yours and the truly. Really? It makes you think. You could read all about it in the fundraising page. There's a pitch deck that gives you a breakdown on the plot, the characters, the vibe, the themes. It's. It's a. It's a queer romantic comedy until it isn't anymore. Yeah. And it's very, very fun, and I'm very, very excited about it. I said it's significant other and torch song trilogy meets Scream.

[B]

Wow. I'm very intrigued.

[A]

Absolutely. Well, yeah, exactly. It's. If you're living a romantic comedy and, you know, romantic romantic comedies, and you deconstruct all of it while you're living it out, it's. But you have the queer component. It's all this other messiness. It's fine. It's fine. Everyone's gonna like it. Guys, we close that every week with a Broadway diva that I put in post. Who do you want to close us out today?

[B]

Oh, my gosh. A Broadway. Oh, God. Who do we do?

[C]

We just let him pick.

[B]

All right, let's go with. Oh, I always go with Patti LuPone. That's my go to always imagine Patti LuPone singing.

[A]

You are what you are wear Patty, the phone.

[B]

I could see it.

[A]

She could do anything I want black and china. All right, so we'll do Patty. We'll do Patty. We'll find something for Patty. Thank you so much for listening, guys. We'll see you next week, and it'll be a blast. Take it by Patty.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

A beautiful town I love you If I need another dress Give your love.

[B]

Of the very best we like the D and silence.