Broadway Breakdown Podcast – "ANGELS IN AMERICA (2nd Episode)"
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Ali Gordon
Release Date: March 6, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode is part of the "Grab Bag" series, where host Matt Koplik and a guest dive into Broadway history, taking suggestions from listeners. Returning is "pod-mother" Ali Gordon, for a deep-dive, profanity-filled, and affectionate examination of Tony Kushner’s Angels in America: Millennium Approaches and Perestroika. Ali brings passionate advocacy (calling it "the best piece of American fiction of the 20th century") and personal history with the show, while Matt steers the analysis, offering sharp, funny, and critical observations.
The episode focuses primarily on the characters of Harper and Joe Pitt, their relationship, the play’s magical realism, changing historical context, and the interpretive questions around Kushner’s script and its performance history.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Ali’s History & Fandom with "Angels in America" (02:43–05:20)
- Ali first encountered the play as a teenager, reading both parts in one marathon sitting. She proclaims:
"I think beyond it being my favorite play, I do think it is the greatest work of American fiction written…"
— Ali Gordon [03:01] - She compares the play’s transformative quality to "the best piece of American fiction" – above even novels and films.
2. The HBO Miniseries vs. The Play
(05:20–13:22)
- Both hosts agree that the HBO miniseries is an extraordinary adaptation and entry point, with smart restructuring and a strong cast.
- Discussion on the HBO version’s approach to comedy: it retains humor, but is more intimate, less "stage funny" than the original Broadway cast performances.
- Matt:
"I never quite realized how incredibly funny this play can be… the audience keeling over, like, laugh after laugh…"
— Matt Koplik [10:13]
3. The Roles of Time & History in Interpretation
(11:03–12:31)
- Each major production is shaped by its era:
- Early 90s (Reagan/Bush/Clinton), post-9/11 (HBO), Trump years (National Theatre 2018/Broadway).
- Matt:
"Every version of Angels we get is reliant on… who's the director and… where are we in history when it's coming?"
— Matt Koplik [11:03] - Tonal shifts: sometimes despair, sometimes hope.
4. Comedic Pacing & Performance Differences
(13:22–16:29)
- Ali and Matt detail the differences in performance nuances—e.g., Mary-Louise Parker (Harper) vs. Marcia Gay Harden, and Patrick Wilson (Joe).
- The fine line between playing the language’s lyricism vs. comic timing.
5. Is the Angel "Real"? Magical Realism & Interpretation
(17:10–24:33)
- Matt asks: Are the visions real, or hallucinations of the sick and suffering?
- Ali’s take:
"It doesn't matter… Isn’t it incredible that it doesn’t matter? … Whether or not you believe it doesn’t change how these characters interact…"
— Ali Gordon [18:10] - The play intentionally blurs reality/fantasy—Wizard of Oz parallels abound.
- Matt notes that Harper and Prior sharing hallucinations suggests real magic at play in the world of the play (23:11).
6. Character Deep Dive: Harper Pitt
(27:37–41:20)
- Harper’s background as an anxious, agoraphobic Mormon in Brooklyn, addicted to Valium and suffering visions.
- Her relationships are shaped by longing for safety/control and childlike wonder at New York’s chaos.
- The importance of portraying Harper as more than an "ugly" stereotype of sadness—she is nuanced, poetic, and, crucially, in love with Joe.
7. Character Deep Dive: Joe Pitt
(41:20–80:13)
- Ali passionately defends Joe as "the best character in the world," fascinated by his tragic arc.
- A recurring topic is how Kushner (and many productions) leave Joe "the only person who does not…get to…grow" or experience connection at play’s end.
- The importance of showing real (but doomed) love between Harper and Joe, versus playing them as reserved, bitter, or loveless from the beginning.
- Joe’s sexuality, repression, and the extreme punishment he receives for claiming his identity:
"…This man stands up multiple times to claim his identity and is…punished for it."
— Ali Gordon [79:38]
8. Comparison with Other Couples: Loving & Breaking Apart
(67:56–70:56)
- The structure of the play’s two central couples: Lewis/Prior and Harper/Joe, both splitting at the play’s inciting incidents.
- Both relationships are deeply flawed from the start; the plots simply expose and catalyze their dissolution.
- The differences between loving someone and being in love with someone are vital in understanding the Harper/Joe endgame.
9. Casting and Character Interpretation
(106:58–112:48)
- How important is outward masculinity for Joe? Producers and actors grapple with this in every revival.
- Threads about Lee Pace’s "unusual" Joe, dream casting (see end of summary), and why playing Harper/Joe with underlying love is dramatically critical.
10. Prior and Lewis: The Other Side of the Play’s Heart
(143:02–154:34)
- The hosts touch briefly on Prior’s performance legacy (Justin Kirk, Steven Spinella, Andrew Garfield, and others), their effectiveness, and the challenge of balancing camp, vulnerability, and wit.
- Matt:
"I don't need a gay man to play Prior, but I can always tell when a straight man plays it."
— Matt Koplik [146:31]
11. Roy Cohn: Bully, Coward, Victim
(135:21–136:11)
- Roy as a tragic, truly monstrous figure.
- Matt draws illuminating connections between Roy’s fate, justice, and American identity:
"When you don’t have…support…no one [is] really there for [you]."
— Matt Koplik [137:14]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On the indelible power of "Angels in America":
"I do think it is the greatest work of American fiction...I would genuinely go to bat to say it is like the best piece of American fiction of the 20th century."
— Ali Gordon [02:54] -
On the value of ambiguity in magical realism:
"It doesn't matter...It's kind of like—I mean, it's Wizard of Oz…Is heaven a series of desks with clerical working angels?"
— Ali Gordon [18:17] -
On the transformation of Harper’s "visions":
"It goes from, my visions and things freak me out…to her feeling like an ownership of it…"
— Ali Gordon [50:59] -
Ali on Joe’s "tragic non-arc":
"He really never gets a moment of tenderness..."
— Ali Gordon [79:52] -
On “forgiveness” and action in the AIDS crisis:
"Forgiveness doesn’t count if it’s easy."
— Belize (via Matt Koplik), [125:36] -
Ali on the necessity of love in playing Harper & Joe:
"When I see them played already hating each other's guts...the second half of the play completely falls apart for them."
— Ali Gordon [106:19] -
On the immense strength and comedy of the play:
"Every scene you read, you go, if that was the best scene in the show, this show would still be amazing. And then you turn to the next page and it’s a better scene…"
— Ali Gordon [116:07]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 02:43 – Ali's first experience reading Angels; "greatest work of American fiction"
- 05:20 – Comparing the HBO miniseries to the play; accessibility vs. complexity
- 13:22 – The play's humor, pace, and performance styles
- 17:10 – The play’s magical realism & 'is the Angel real?'
- 27:37 – Character study: Harper Pitt
- 41:20 – Character study: Joe Pitt—repression, love, punishment
- 67:56 – Relationships: why the "breakups" define the story
- 80:13 – Joe’s fate, punishment, and questions of redemption
- 106:58 – Portrayal choices for Harper & Joe; pitfalls of loveless interpretations
- 143:02 – Prior/Lewis performance legacies (Garfield, Kirk, Spinella, etc.)
- 135:21 – Roy Cohn: villainy, vulnerability, justice
- 162:12 – DREAMCASTING: wild cards for future productions
Dream Casting Discussion Highlights
- Betty Gilpin as Harper – Ali: "That really, really, I was like, I got excited about that."
- Bill Hader (age range of "Skeleton Twins") as Prior—smart, funny, sensitive, understands pace/tone.
- Kieran Culkin as Prior—Matt: "He is mean… he understands how to deliver a line…very smart guy."
- Mentioned: Lee Pace, Russell Tovey (Joes), Michael Urie (Prior), Andrew Garfield (critiqued as miscast).
Final Thoughts
Matt and Ali’s conversation is as much about theater-making, moral ambiguity, and the idiosyncrasies of live performance as it is about Angels itself. They revel in the play’s depth and complexity, advocate for honest and loving character portrayals (especially for Harper & Joe), and express deep gratitude for Tony Kushner’s masterwork.
Outro/Diva Segment
The tradition: Close with a diva, often inspired by the episode’s topics.
- For this week: Meryl Streep’s "Songbird" from Death Becomes Her (per Ali’s pick).
Listen for:
- Engaged, affectionate disagreement
- Queer perspectives on a queer play
- Warm profanity, trivia, and off-topic tangents (skip the ads/intro for the core discussion!)
End of Summary