← Broadway Breakdown
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hello, all you theater lovers both out und proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is friend of the Pod, closing out our series, Grab Bag, covering shows that you submitted and I picked out of a bowl. Please welcome back Daddy. Robert W. Schneider.
- [00:50]
B
Daddy, That's. I'm obsessed. Thank you for that. Can that be, like, my permanent moniker?
- [00:56]
A
I thought it already was.
- [00:57]
B
Well, I just want to be clear. I said moniker because I asked Matt before we went on the air, because this is such a big play, like, can we be, like, how smart do I need to sound? So I thought moniker would be, like, a really nice way of starting that off. How'd that go?
- [01:10]
A
It sounded great. And then when you said area date before we started recording, I looked up with the word meant and had to come up with a different fancy word to respond to you with. And that's the vibe we have as we close out this baby.
- [01:23]
B
Matthew, you're smart. How dare you. Matt, can I ask you a question really quickly?
- [01:26]
A
Better than anyone I know, it's not a dumb question.
- [01:29]
B
What was your SAT score? Were you a good student?
- [01:32]
A
I didn't take the SATs. I took the ACTs.
- [01:34]
B
What's that?
- [01:36]
A
It's an alternative to the SATs. Yeah. And I took them because the schools that I was applying to accepted both the ACT and the sat. And it was implied at the time that acts were better for students who had sort of my brain balance or whatever. I don't know, just like, for more sort of like outside of the box, thinking and studying patterns.
- [02:00]
B
Yeah.
- [02:00]
A
But I got. I actually think I got a solid ACT score. I wasn't, you know, in the top 3%, but I did. I did well. I was a bad student. I had a lot of trouble focusing.
- [02:11]
B
Me, too. I don't know if you had the same issue. I trouble focusing on things that I just was not interested in.
- [02:16]
A
1,000%.
- [02:17]
B
Yeah. Like, I was like, I don't know why I'm taking marine biology. I have no interest in whales, but so. But I have to take it to get a credit. I was just curious. I would have assumed that you would have been, like, on the honor roll, 4.0 GPA, like, Goody Two Shoes. No, no.
- [02:31]
A
My family was convinced I wasn't going to graduate college on time. I. Well, to be fair, they thought that while I was in high school, once I got to college, it was a lot better. I was on. I made the dean's list at Emerson, I think three times. But that's three out of eight semesters, so not quite half.
- [02:50]
B
Okay, cool. Thank you. I was just curious. Thanks for. Thanks for answering that.
- [02:54]
A
You're welcome. And now that we've gotten that out.
- [02:57]
B
Of the way, let's go for the rest of your resume here.
- [03:01]
A
Go through my resume and my past indiscretions. Let's go for it.
- [03:04]
B
No, I'm never gonna go through your past indiscretions.
- [03:06]
A
No, we already aired all that shit out on this podcast and I've heard.
- [03:10]
B
I've heard.
- [03:11]
A
Yeah, yeah, with you. You've. You've been on here while we did it. Rob, what show are we talking about today? What are we closing out?
- [03:19]
B
We are. We are talking about one of my favorite plays. And it's so basic to say because I think it's probably everybody's favorite play or one of their favorite plays, and that is Tony Kushner's Angels in America, specifically Part one, Millennium Approaches. That is what today is the topic du jour. Angels in America. Right. Millennium Approaches, Part one. I read the right play. Right, Matt?
- [03:41]
A
I mean, we're gonna talk about Perestroika as well.
- [03:45]
B
I do not speak Russian, so at this point, I will probably have to relieve myself or possibly say nyet.
- [03:51]
A
So I said in the last episode with Podmother Ali Gordon, I was gonna finally go to the library and watch the 1993. 1994 original production with the original company. And it's technically speaking, 1994. They filmed it, I think, first week of January, like right before Ron Liebman and Marsha K. Hardin left.
- [04:09]
B
Oh, my God, he's so good. Yes, yes, continue.
- [04:12]
A
So it was. It was very important to me to see that production because this is also my favorite play. And I'd said before to both Ali and alex, watching the 30ish minutes of reviewer reels clips from the original production, I was like, oh, this is. This is the production for me.
- [04:29]
B
Yeah.
- [04:29]
A
And I went to the library to sort of see how it all came together. And the part of reason why I do want to bring up Perestroika is because Perestroika is infamously the one part that has been fucked with the most over the last 30ish years. Like Kushner.
- [04:45]
B
Oh, you mean like revisions and stuff?
- [04:46]
A
Yeah, exactly. And it was fascinating to see what had been in there from the jump, what had been put in the Broadway production that got Taken out of later, revised versions. Because I have three versions of the script of Millennium Approaches and Perestroika, and the published version I had from. From the mid-90s, as well as right after the HBO miniseries came out. Perestroika is very different from how it's presented in the Broadway production. There are some things that are not in the script that are in that production. And so I just, like, Mandela affected and said, oh, yeah, it wasn't in the Broadway version. And then I'm watching and I'm like, oh, that line that I famously told Ally was added for the HBO miniseries is in the Broadway version. Oh, like that scene that I famously said Kushner added when they did the signature in 2010 is here in the Broadway production. Like, but it wasn't in my published script, so I just look like an asshole.
- [05:41]
B
Oh, no, that's not your fault.
- [05:44]
A
It's a little my fault.
- [05:46]
B
That's not your fault. No, I. But I totally understand. Is there, like, if some. Let me ask you a question. Like, if somebody was a student of theater and they had never read Angels in America, like, what version would you hand them? Would you be like, look at the published version or look at this one that came out after the movie version? Like, what. Like, which one would you think is the.
- [06:04]
A
Like, which edition of the play would I tell them to read?
- [06:06]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they're like, you're right. There have been so many changes. Like, which one do you feel is the best, though, or the strongest? I shouldn't say the best. The strongest.
- [06:13]
A
I think that the most recent addition is probably the strongest version of Perestroika. Overall. It's like. It's the tightest. It's the most focused. There are some lines that have been rewritten between 2003 to 2013, when those revisions were happening, just, like, some tweaks to lines that I miss, but that's. Those are nuances to what is overall a more tightly constructed version of the play.
- [06:40]
B
Sure, sure.
- [06:41]
A
Yeah. Ali and I were sort of asking this question of how would you introduce someone to Angels? Because it is just so huge and has such importance and such a legacy, and you kind of want to communicate like, no, this is actually a very human and funny play that, like, while it is very dense sometimes, it actually can be very easy to follow and can be very engaging. And we ultimately decided, you know, it's easiest to watch the HBO version. It's just so readily available, but it is also just a lovely version of it. So it's. It's A good one to show people for sure.
- [07:16]
B
So good. I remember when that came out. I was in college when that came out. As did I. Thank you. That's a little humor for you. And I remember how life changing that was for so many of us. So many of us, even straight people who were just like, oh, my God, the acting in this thing. I mean, you had so many wonderful titans in that. I mean, Al Pacino, Meryl Streep, it's just. And Mike Nichols direction of it, I thought was just absolutely marvelous. Yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was a ring of keys moment for a lot of us of that, of that particular generation. Yeah.
- [07:49]
A
Was that how Angels in America entered your chat, Rob?
- [07:52]
B
No, actually, thank you for asking. Angels actually entered my chat because I, I grew up in California and there was a Borders bookstore. Did you have Borders when you grew up? There was a thing over in the East Coast. Okay, great.
- [08:05]
A
Well, Barnes and Noble was the thing here. We had Borders for like a solid 10 years, though.
- [08:09]
B
Oh, oh, did you? Okay, great.
- [08:11]
A
Borders tried to be the, like, competition and they, they didn't last very long.
- [08:16]
B
Trendy, like, very trendy. Like Barnes and Noble was like, for the very smart people. Borders was like, hey, we're chill.
- [08:21]
A
Like, I saw your book out of Borders in Kentucky.
- [08:26]
B
Thank you very much. I. And so anyway, there was a, like a. There was a Borders really close to my house, and there was a, a drama, you know, section, a theater section. And it was, it was always on display there. It was always on display. And so I loved reading as much theater as possible. I think I was like maybe 12 or 13 years old, and I bought it and I read it. And I read it once, sitting all the way through, and then I immediately started over it again and read it again the second time. So I think I was like in middle school, believe it or not, when I first was exposed to it and I found it, to me it felt like a mystery. And it was one of those things, like you kept having to read it and every time you read it, something new had emerged. And every time you'd read it, something new had been unlocked about it. I loved it. I found it to be like one of the most complicated puzzles I had ever read. And at that point I was like, oh, my God, I have to see this thing. And I wasn't exposed to performances of it until the Tony Awards in. God, you would know this better than I would. What was the weird year where they were like, we're going to show you the plays, but we're going to show you, like, in process, how they're done.
- [09:34]
A
That was the 93 Tony Awards. That was the. That was the year that Angels won Millennium for Millennium Approaches.
- [09:40]
B
Okay.
- [09:40]
A
Yeah. Because they showed Ron Lehman and Kathleen Chalfont, Right?
- [09:45]
B
Yeah. And it was. I mean, it was so fucking bizarre. Listen, can I. Can I detour for a quick second and I promise I'll get back.
- [09:50]
A
You know what podcast you're on. Go ahead.
- [09:52]
B
Okay. I don't know if you feel this way. I actually like when the Tony Awards show little scenes from the plays that are nominated. And I actually thought what they had done in the 80s. I think, like, they did it in 87 through. Yeah, in 87. 88. Where they were like, Angela Lansbury came out and she set up what was happening in the scene. And then they did a little scene. And if for some reason they got rid of that. Cause they were like, oh, I think it's confusing, or people don't really know what's happening. I didn't feel that way. And so they were like, oh, we're gonna start reworking how we're showing these things. And they came up with, I thought, like, a really stupid idea of which actually was confusing to like, what the hell is happening? Being like, this is how a play starts. And they did like a table read of Sisters Rosenswein. It's like, what the fuck is this? But the best thing was that last. The most realistic thing was having Kathleen Chalfont and Ron Liebman doing the scene in the doctor's office where he, you know, AIDS is a disease that, you know, it's. It's. I'm not gay. Gay gays are people who can't get an anti discrimination bill passed through City Hall. And I was like, what the fuck is this? Like, this acting? What is this? I had never seen anything like that before. And at that point I was like, oh, my God, I need. I need to see this whole. Whole thing. And thank God. Then, like ten years later, the. The HBO version came out and oh, my God, it was so good. Long answer to a short. No.
- [11:13]
A
So. So in that. In that sense, then. So you were able to read the script.
- [11:18]
B
Yeah.
- [11:18]
A
When the Broadway show opened. Because. Yeah, because that was the year that Millennium Approaches came to Broadway and we talked about a little bit on the POD already. But, like, the production History of Angels is very long.
- [11:31]
B
Yes. Oh, God.
- [11:32]
A
I think Kushner was commissioned to write it for the Eureka theater in, like, 88, maybe 87. And it took him a very long time to write it. They basically spent two years workshopping Millennium approaches to death, 1990. They were, you know, Millennium was kind of in a solid state, and they were then starting to workshop perestroika, but only bits and pieces, because famously, he just. He was sort of always blowing past deadlines and getting it down to the wire. And by the time it finally opened on Broadway, it had played at Millennium Approaches, had played at the Eureka, at the Mark Taper Forum, and at the National Theater, and it had already become huge news in the theater community. And I guess Millennium Approaches then also had been published, because you were able to read it. So by the time it opened in April or May of 93, it was like, people. I think Frank Rich's review for it even starts with, you know, you may have heard so much about Angels in America at this point that you feel like you've seen it. And I guarantee you, you have not yet.
- [12:32]
B
Well, you know, actually, hold on, wait. I'm thinking for a second, I might have actually seen that Tony Awards broadcast, then got the script. Is that possible?
- [12:43]
A
You might not have made the connection that the two were related at first?
- [12:46]
B
Yeah, I think maybe that was it. Okay. Yeah. But no, Frank. Yeah, I remember when Frank Rich was like, yeah, you've seen it. Even if you've never seen it, it feels like you've seen it. It was all anybody could talk about.
- [12:56]
A
Yeah. Sorry.
- [12:58]
B
Oh, no, no, go ahead.
- [12:59]
A
No, say, I'm trying to think the last time a straight American play was so at the center of culture. And I feel like, especially with theater, you know, musical theater is something that America really invented. And play straight plays is not something we invented, but we have so many amazing ones in our canon. And it sort of felt like there had been a. Like, a dirge of American classics that, no, not only were good, but the country took notice of. And that was the first time in a long time that that happened.
- [13:31]
B
I. I mean, I would probably say. I'm sure somebody will correct me, but I would probably say the last one of that sort of magnitude for me probably would have been who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Like, that was something that. I think the. Like, everybody knew what it was. Everybody was talking about it. And that was in the early 60s. And then I'm trying to think. I can't really think of any of them, like, because all the other great plays had been written before that. Like, all the great Williams was before that. All the great Miller was before that.
- [13:56]
A
Yeah.
- [13:56]
B
So, yeah, I would probably say who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Was the last one that had, like, it's. It's such notoriety.
- [14:03]
A
Yeah.
- [14:04]
B
But Angels, to me is even more global than that, than who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Because who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Is so American, and. Yes, in America, but it's talking about cosmic, cosmic themes and ideas. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would probably say who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
- [14:19]
A
Yeah. I think Angels in America because it fucks so hard with theatricality and what you can do on a stage, and it provides so many more, you know, performing opportunities for actors. Whereas, like, Virginia Woolf, it is that tight for some angels. I think it's a cast of seven, maybe eight, and it's so large and everyone plays multiple roles. And yes, the themes it deals with and the language is. The. The language in Angels in America is just poetry, sometimes quite literally. And. And who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf is true blue, like, honest text. Like, it's not. People aren't speaking in high prose. It's just. It is highly curated, realistic dialogue.
- [15:04]
B
Yes, it's. It's visceral and it's savage, as is Angels. But there's a musicality and like you said, a poetry to angels that's not real. That's. You know, Angels is one of those plays. I don't think there's ever been anything like it beforehand, and I don't know if there'll be anything like it afterwards. Yeah, I mean, there have been attempts, like, I feel like the. In some ways, like the inheritance was trying to do something similar, you know, creating an opus of a particular time. But Angels is always going to be far, in a way, the best. Just the best.
- [15:39]
A
That's something. That's something that they talk about. I think in World Only Spins Forward. The oral history is sort of, now that it's come out. There are so many aspiring playwrights who. Who are talented and have abandoned so many works that they've written because they realize halfway through, oh, I'm just. I'm writing my own angels, and it's derivative and it's never going to be as good. And I think, you know. Did you ever watch the other two on hbo?
- [16:05]
B
No, but I've heard of it. I'm familiar with it. Yeah.
- [16:08]
A
So did you hear about the specific episode, Carrie and what are their characters names?
- [16:16]
B
It's the. What is the important play? Isn't that.
- [16:18]
A
Yeah, it's. They go see a play and the play is called, like, you know, Six Gay Men with aids. A Poem in Many Hours or something like that.
- [16:28]
B
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
- [16:29]
A
And it's definitely a riff on Angels in America as well as the Inheritance and just plays that. That go on for so long and wear their importance on their sleeve. And. And I think Angels got that reputation a, because of so many plays that it inspired, but also because it sort of landed with, you know, crashing through the ceiling with such magnitude. People now hold it up as the sacred text, which it is. But it's also like. It's incredibly funny. It's incredibly messy.
- [16:58]
B
Well, that's the thing. I think people. And I know that you said you had seen the. The original over at the. At the library and I think that's actually something people forget about it over time. I think because it's been. We've seen so many bad productions of it and I think we've mostly. I'm so sorry. At colleges. Like I. You know, the nice thing about the play is it has wonderful two person scenes, but the play has been ruined in a lot of ways at college just because you've seen so many bad productions of it. But the thing that people sort of forget about it is it's humor. It's a very funny play. It's savage. It's savagely funny. And you then when you see young people do it, they don't do any of the comedy. They. And so it becomes very morose and very heavy. I mean, how many times. Wait, let me ask you this. Did you ever do a scene from Angels in America in any of your college acting classes? And do you remember which one you did?
- [17:55]
A
So I know I mentioned this in the Ali Gordon and maybe Alex's episode as well, but definitely Ali Gordon. So apologies everyone. But not in college. High school.
- [18:05]
B
Oh, high school. Wow, Good for you.
- [18:07]
A
I know in high school I did the prior Harper dream sequence in Millennium Approaches and I was not good, but I was. I was so eager.
- [18:17]
B
Which were you, Harper or Prior?
- [18:20]
A
You. I was prior.
- [18:22]
B
I actually think you could probably do both brilliantly. Oh, I bet you would be a very prior.
- [18:26]
A
I would love to get my hands on Harper. I think Harper. Harper might be my favorite role in the show other than Belize. But in truth, like, I would be cast as Lewis. That is, that is just too.
- [18:37]
B
Oh, really? Yeah. Okay.
- [18:39]
A
I don't think so.
- [18:41]
B
No, actually I just. I need to think about this for a little bit. I'm so sorry. Because I think you could probably do both. Really? Well, I don't know, I see you more as a prior just because of the. Lewis is so uptight and I never get that impression from you.
- [18:56]
A
Well, that's because you've seen me out in the wild. You don't. I feel like a lot of people when they meet me at first glance, like, oh, you're a lot of energy. And that's. That's definitely Louis. I think Lewis is ultimately my ID and prior is my ego. And, Yeah, I don't know. I just feel like I can. I can sit in Lewis's skin pretty easily. The constant talking and just being a lot and chewing yourself up over, like, the smallest of. Of subjects.
- [19:26]
B
I see. Yeah.
- [19:27]
A
And I don't know, I feel like on. Whenever I act on stage, I get usually told one of two things. One is either, you know, oh, like, you're so sweet, or you're, like, very chaotic. And I feel like that's sort of the right blend for a Lewis. You. You. You have. You have to be able to understand what he's going through even as you're rolling your eyes at him.
- [19:48]
B
Yes. Yes. Okay, cool. I would love to see you do both. In my college, they made us do. Everybody had to do the Joe Harper I burned dinner scene. And at this, Honestly, my friend, I could probably do it verbatim for you because you see it so much and you're like, I can't do this anymore. I can. And then after the movie came out, everyone just wanted to imitate Mary Louise Parker, who's never met an ellipse she didn't like. And so, like, all the scenes are just, like, filled with one heavy pause after another. But if you watch the original, it's funny. The scene is actually very funny, and nobody does the humor anymore. And I think that that, to me, is the saddest thing about this play, which is I think people have forgotten that one of the things that makes the play so good is that Kushner uses humor as an attempt to survive. And we don't really see that too much anymore. When people do this play.
- [20:41]
A
We don't.
- [20:42]
B
I will say, in those worlds, not necessarily like, Broadway version or the one, you know.
- [20:46]
A
Yeah, yeah. I will say, watching the. The Broadway version at the library these last two days, it was refreshing to see it played so theatrically for laughs and for drama. Yes, I do have some caveats with this production, having now watched it, the original. And part of it might be just like, I built it up so much in my head for years. Part of it is, you know, because it's angels, and there's just so much to it. And this is also every production of angels in the 90s, for all intents and Purposes was a brand new production to introduce to the world and. And did. Had many different things to prove. So the Broadway version, because it was this big epic about huge themes, and yes, it had a lot of prestige to it, but they kind of really needed to sell it to an audience. It is probably to this day still the most like, spectacle heavy version of Angels. It's a very intricate design. Yeah, it's Robin Wagner who did the set. And you know, in a lot of ways it is. Most scenes are just like one piece comes on, one piece comes off, but it is. Things are coming from different directions. There are all these panels that will tilt and slide in different directions. Like it's. It's a very intricate set and very. And one where if you're sitting in the audience, you're like, oh my God, like the money, this cost.
- [22:04]
B
Oh, yeah, it's very surprise. It's very theatrical. It's very theatrical. It knew what George C. Wolfe and his designers, they all knew what they were doing with it. And to me, I don't know if I've seen a production that's embraced that sort of theatricality and humor since that particular original. Yeah, I think I was gonna say, I actually, I really love the national theater version. I really enjoyed that one. But to me, the OG is just like, that's standard. I'm talking a little bit too long because currently Matt is taking a bite of his dinner. And Matt, I have to tell you, boy, that looks like a fantastic dinner. Where did you get it?
- [22:42]
A
It's my factor Meal Rob Factor.
- [22:46]
B
What's that?
- [22:47]
A
Factor is a delivery at home service that gives you dietary approved chef curated meals for however many meals you need. Breakfast, lunch, dinner to go. Snacks, all at your beck and call.
- [23:01]
B
Wow, Matt, I really wish I had that, but I just don't think I could afford it.
- [23:05]
A
Well, if you use the code BP50OFF@FACTORYMEALS.COM BP50OFF. You can get 50% off your first box and free shipping.
- [23:16]
B
But Matt, I travel so much for work. How would I even, like, get the meals?
- [23:21]
A
Well, they deliver it to the address that you send them and it only takes two minutes in a microwave or in an oven to cook. It's very easy, very easy to do. And we're done with that bit now because I'm pretty sure there'll be five factor ads, as you know, during this episode for however long that we talk. Speaking of, let's take a quick break. You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet. And we're back. So you're right. I think part. I wonder if someone like George C. Wolf for that team, if they had the chance to do Angels again now that they don't have to prove so hard that it's worth the price of admission. People just know it's a good show. How they would approach it physically now and how they would approach it acting style now. Oh, I've been very vocal. I was not the biggest fan of the National Theater broadcast or its transfer. I thought it was better live when they brought it to New York. Partly. I thought that Lee Pace was a better Joe Pitt than Russell Tovey, who I do like a great deal. But Lee is just much more the Joe that I see in my head and fit it better. And then also that cast coming to America and playing to a New York audience all of a sudden realized that the play is funny. And so it became a lot more comical in New York. It still wasn't fully what I wanted, but it was a vast improvement.
- [24:49]
B
What was missing for you? What did you feel was not there?
- [24:52]
A
Well, a. I thought that again, I thought that a lot of the humor was missing. A lot of it came back when they transferred it, but it still wasn't quite enough. I've been very vocal already about how much I really dislike Andrew Garfield's performance in. In that production. It also just sometimes felt very analytical and also very cold. What I. What I did enjoy about it is I enjoyed the Lewis a great deal. I actually have a. I now have a very large respect for Denise Gough. I think that's how you say her name, her Harper. I enjoy it a great deal as well. Nathan Lane, I think, is really good as Roy Cohn. And there's a fluidity to the way that Marian Elliott staged that production that I really enjoy. Because at Signature it was. Which is off Broadway. And also this was Signature's former home across the street. You know, this 200 seat black box with like no space. So the whole set was basically a unit set. It looked almost like an apartment, I guess that they would maneuver to be different locations. And so I liked the intimacy of it and I liked the. I did like the fluidity of how the scenes would bleed into each other, but there was no. I didn't feel a lot of theatricality from it and also didn't feel a lot of humor from it. I felt a lot of anger from it, which I. That I enjoyed the HBO version. I thought Had a great deal of humanity to it and did have humor, but it also was a pretty mainstream sort of the way. The way that Ali Gordon I sort of talked about is like, it's kind of a straight man. Angels in America. There's not a lot of flamboyancy to it.
- [26:27]
B
Yes, yes, there is.
- [26:28]
A
There is some, but it's not. When you compare Justin Kirk's prior to Steven Spinella's prior, very, very different.
- [26:36]
B
Yes.
- [26:37]
A
And the original production, now that I've watched it, it's more. It felt like George C. Wolfe was almost directing it. Like it was an opera or it was Shakespeare. It was very big. And some performances took a while for me to calibrate to that. Like Ralph. It took me about two or three scenes with Ron Liebman's Roy Cohn to fully have that sink in with me. Like, I was locked in with him for Perestroika, but I remember his first scene with the. With the answering machine in front of Joe. I was like, oh, he's really doing a lot. And then I realized halfway through, I was like, oh, he's doing Roy Cohn as Richard iii.
- [27:11]
B
Got it.
- [27:12]
A
And. And was able to go from there. I'm still not entirely sure if I'm 100% on board with Marsha Gay Harden's Harper. She. What she does. Her Harper is in severe pain and, like, so sexually frustrated. She also. Hers is the only Harper that emphasizes that Harper is most likely a prophet as well. But because this is the theory I gave to Ali in the last episode, like, Harper is most likely a prophet, and because the angels are so bad at clerical work, like, that paperwork just slipped through the cracks. So she's not visited by angels. She's just stuck with these very real visions. Yeah. And. And I. Well, because it's like part of Perestroika you found out is, like, these angels, they have no creativity. They have all of this ability. They have the capacity to be spectacular, but they don't have the creativity or insight. They don't even really have the intelligence. They're not smart beings. They're sort of petulant, magnificent children. And when God abandons them, as we find out in perestroika, they're left scrambling to sort of figure out what to do. And they're bad at it. They're really bad at it. And so it makes sense to me that Harper would be a prophet that slipped through the cracks for them like her, that file got lost somewhere.
- [28:32]
B
Yeah.
- [28:32]
A
And Harden really does emphasize the profit stuff, because anytime her Harper Talks about the world or a vision she might have. Her voice drops, like, three octaves, and she. Because she's, like, very much. She goes very childlike with her Harper a lot of the time. And then when she's having these visions, she, like, goes all the way down here.
- [28:57]
B
Yeah. Drops. Yeah.
- [28:59]
A
And she very much embraces the poetry of the dialogue. I wasn't the biggest fan of her Night Flight to San Francisco just because it was so important. And it's actually what I love about. About Mary Louise Parker's Harper. And that's the way she does that speech in particular. Her Harper also is very childlike and isn't ethereal like Marcia Gay Harden's. She's just always kind of spaced out because she's, like. She's either super high on Valium or she's coming down from Valium. So she's always just, like, buggy.
- [29:33]
B
Yes.
- [29:34]
A
And what I liked about her Night Flight to San Francisco was just the intimate conversation she was having with us, the viewer, about it.
- [29:43]
B
You're talking about Mary Louise Parker.
- [29:45]
A
Yes, Mary Louise Parker in the HBO series.
- [29:47]
B
Do you think that's obviously, like. Because the camera is, like, right in front of her, that there's an intimacy that's there that's not in the theatrical version? Is that what you're saying? Or are you just saying it's two different. Very. The motivation behind each of the actors is different.
- [30:01]
A
I think the motivation behind it was different because I will say I'm pretty good at watching theater on film and recognizing that if I were in the theater in this moment, I would find this very intimate or I would find this very personal. And it's not that Marcia is being fake like she. There are literally literal tears in her eyes as she's doing it. And I will say I really actually enjoyed. I've always viewed Mary Louise Parker's interpretation of the final scene with Joe, the credit card and the slap. Like, for me, that was always definitive. And I watched Marcia K. Harden, David Marshall Grant, who. I'm also, like, still kind of on the fence about his Joe. He's playing a very long game with his Joe with millennium protest and perestroika. But it's such a. She gets laughs out of it. But it is a very painful scene for her because she is doing what is right and healthy for her, and she's be. And you understand all of a sudden how strong she's being by walking out, because she is so sad to do it. She still loves him more than anything, but it hurts too much. And she needs to live her life. And I was like, oh, I love. I love everything here. Hers is very empathetic. Harper. And then the Night Flight. It was just felt to me that she was leaning too hard on the importance of the play. Not. Not even the text of that scene, but just the importance of, like, the play that I'm in. It was very much giving. Oh, it's Brooke and Carrie. It was very much giving. Brooke and Carrie and the other two see a very long Broadway play. But I also kind of felt that way about the ending of Perestroika for the Broadway production in general was like, it all ends just for a seat. For an epilogue that I love, and dialogue that I love. And, I mean, I adore the Night Flight. All the dead souls repairing the hole in the ozone layer. I love that monologue for those final eight minutes. I was like, oh, this is very much giving. We're two years into the Clinton administration. The economy is bouncing back. You know, there's no cure for aids, but we're in the middle of AZT being widely spread for AIDS patients. There's. We're in this era of hope. And so it's a very sweet ending. And I said this before because they talk about it in the book as well. You know, Angels has gone through so many periods in America, so anytime it ends, it's either anger or hope or naivete, what have you. And every time it reads a little differently. And it's. Every version is a version for art for the time that it's coming out in. So, yeah, you're right.
- [32:39]
B
No. And depending on, like, what the political climate is at the time, you know, the way we perceive the play can have so many different impacts. I actually think that this play is probably two, 300 years from now going to be considered the greatest American play.
- [32:53]
A
Agreed.
- [32:54]
B
Yeah. I mean, and I know people will probably be like, what. What about Death? Death of a Salesman? Virginia Woolf, Blast Menagerie? They. They will not be as performed with the same resonance, I think, as this play. What Kushner does so brilliantly is it's not just a. I hate when people say that. It's like, oh, it's a gay play. There are plays that are just gay plays. This is not one of them. This is not one of them. This is about marriage. This is about power. This is about politics. And I think that's kind of the brilliance of this play. It's like a prism. Every time you turn it, something new is getting revealed to you. And I think there's a Lot of plays that actually do that, they might be brilliant and wonderful, but there's nothing with this universality to it, which I think is really special.
- [33:36]
A
I mean, I think, I would argue, I do think it is a queer play just in the sense of it doesn't, it doesn't hide the queerness.
- [33:44]
B
Sure. But it's not just that.
- [33:46]
A
Yeah, no, this is not a boys in the band. This is not a. There was that play second stage last summer or two summers ago about like the guys in Fire island or like Palm Springs Timeshare or whatever.
- [33:58]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [33:58]
A
Versus like it's just so inside baseball. And it's, it's, it's sort in a lot of ways kind of pandering. Angels is. It is such a large scale play. So yes, it's in a lot of ways it's a gay play because when we talk about the minuscule day to day humanity of it, it's a majority queer characters dealing with queer moments. But also, you know, I would argue outside of maybe Belize, no character is totally innocent. And Belize is, I would argue, like, you know, Belize's greatest maybe caveat as a person is Belize is very vindictive and has no problem screwing the knife in no matter how much pain it's giving somebody else. Because he's like, well, you deserve it. It's like, well, yeah, you could also stand to like chill a little bit, but I find so many. So and this is coming off of, by the way, we're recording this the day after I recorded my Redwood Review, the new Idina Menzel musical.
- [34:56]
B
And.
- [34:57]
A
And something that bothered me about the resolution of Idina Menzel's trauma in that musical is how pat they are about it of like fully absolving her of any guilt or questionings she might have so she can move on. And I'm like, that's not life. You're. We all have done stuff in this world that has hurt someone or had a cause and effect, whatever, and you can't ever get rid of that. You can hopefully make peace with it and learn to do better from it, but it's going to live with you forever. And it doesn't have to define you, but it is always a part of you. And what I like about Angels is, you know, all these characters fuck up and we see how the ones who are just human and fucking up have the potential to still heal and connect and still be friends. Like the final scene is Louis believes Prior and Hannah at the Bethesda Fountain a few years later.
- [35:53]
B
So it's you Know, it's very messy and I think in a good way. And I think that's actually something that I wish a lot of playwrights would take from Tony Kushner, which is, you're right, you don't have to. You don't have to, you know, copy what, what he did. But this idea of trusting the audience to understand that not everything works out perfectly and to understand that, you know, there are ramifications to every decision. I, I like that. I don't think everything has to end with a happy little, little bow on it. And I mean, yeah, I mean, I think there's probably a version somewhere where I'm sure people were like, why didn't Joe and Harper get back together? Because that's kind of what. I'm serious. Like, you know, it's not a. It's not a happy ending. I'm sorry. Sorry, friends. I wonder what happened to Joe. Where is Joe?
- [36:35]
A
Well, that's the thing. So I'll say. When I was a teenager, when I first watched the miniseries, and I think it's because Patrick Wilson is such a quiet Joe in it and such a sad sack. He don't. You don't see anger in him, you just see constant suffering.
- [36:48]
B
Yeah.
- [36:48]
A
I remember watching it be like, why couldn't he and Lewis make it work? Like, I, I did not understand the have you no decency scene. That, that scene didn't resonate for 13 year old me. I didn't get it quite yet. It took a while later to figure that out, but at the time I was like, I don't know why. What Lewis's problem is, like, Joe is so handsome, he's so nice. You know, he's figuring himself out. Can he give an inch? And I appreciated that the miniseries added that scene with Patrick Wilson, Meryl Streep at the end to let you know, like, Joe's, you know, who knows exactly where Joe's at four years later, but he, at the very least we know, is going to be living with his mom for a bit. She'll be his support system. And if she, if we see four years later that she's become a stylish New Yorker with gay friends, there's no way that that happened with her being such close proximity to Joe and that not sort of him not absorbing some of that confidence in that strength. Right.
- [37:39]
B
I've always, yes. You know, this is how I've always imagined Joe, but I could be wrong. I've always imagined that he, like you said, lives with his mom for a little bit. And I Think he goes off on his own, and I think he gets scared and nervous and retreats back into religion as a comfort and probably has married another woman. I don't know why. That's kind of how I've always imagined him. Like, he attempts. He attempts to, like, identify his true self, and then he just can't. And I think there's so much damage done to him that he. He can't get away from that comfort. The mom can, which I think is kind of cool. But that's. I don't know. I've always imagined him in my mind.
- [38:17]
A
I think that's how a lot of people imagine him. And I think that's absolutely fair. Something that Ally said that I didn't even really kind of clock until she said it. Jo comes out of the closet three different times. Angels in America. And every single time, it's met with the worst kind of response you could hope. He.
- [38:35]
B
He's always punished.
- [38:37]
A
Exactly. He built up the courage to tell his mother, and she's like, this didn't happen.
- [38:42]
B
This is not happening. You don't exit.
- [38:43]
A
And then he goes straight home to tell his wife, who all, at this point, has already goaded him into. Into admitting it. And then he's finally ready to admit it to her, and she falls apart.
- [38:53]
B
Yep.
- [38:54]
A
And to Hannah Pitt's credit, she immediately, like. She immediately regrets that phone call and comes to New York to talk about it and talk it out, and Joe won't do it.
- [39:05]
B
She sells her house.
- [39:06]
A
She sells her. She sells her house to, like, to be there to help figure stuff out. And the way that every Hannah I've seen play it, and then I should say the way that Meryl's the best Hannah is my opinion, like Kathleen Chalfont and Meryl Streep have played it in Perestroika. She's not coming there to, like, put Joe in conversion therapy. She comes to want to talk about it and figure out how to help him. But because she responded so poorly immediately, he won't talk about it now. And on top of that, when he comes out to Roy, Roy, like, scares the living bejesus out of him and to not living a gay life.
- [39:41]
B
Oh, yeah, listen, this guy, every time he's tried to admit his truth, has been punished, chastised, humiliated. So, no, I've always imagined that he goes off. He move somewhere else and get scared and ends up going, right. And there are people like that. There are people like that that I think we all know people like that that are. That they think that they think that they can. They have the power to. To change something that they know is wrong. They know, like, lying about their sexuality is wrong. They just can't. It's too scary.
- [40:11]
A
Yeah. Taking it. Taking that leap is too much for some people.
- [40:13]
B
Yeah, it really is. But that's also something else I really appreciate about this play is it's not black and white, you know, and so many gay plays of this particular era were black and white. They just were. They just were. And the fact that he's giving Tony Kushner is giving you gray in this, I think, is actually what probably makes it work so perfectly. Well. It's not clean, and it's not pat, and it's not cute little bows wrapped up on it. And I think that's marvelous, and I think that's probably why it's gonna outlast all of us.
- [40:43]
A
Yeah. I feel like anyone who wants to be a writer and wants to tackle big issues, some. If you want to take anything away from angels, besides the poetry, besides the grandeur of it all, take away this from each character. You have a character like Lewis, who I think a lot of us politically and morally agree with to an extent. He also happens to just suck as a human being. He's weak. He's spineless, and he also, like, he can't deal with the personal. He can only really deal with the abstract. When it comes to morality, Lewis is.
- [41:18]
B
The modern equivalent of Lewis. Is everyone who posts on Instagram something politically but then never does anything about it.
- [41:23]
A
Yeah.
- [41:24]
B
Like, they just. They. They can. They can vomit out their word salad and tell you how offended they are, but they don't take any action about it. Lewis never takes any action.
- [41:32]
A
Yeah. Never takes action. Lewis, he's the epitome of sharing on his story. Like, an outrageous headline of, like, this offends me. I'm, like, cool. Like, want to share something we can do about it? Well, I don't. Why should I teach you everything? It's like, okay, you have someone like Joe who is not, like, a vicious person. He's not Roy Cohn. Even if his. His religious beliefs are very conservative, his political beliefs are conservative. There was. There's a world in which someone like Lewis or. Or some. Or a better version of Lewis could open Joe's eyes to the world. Because Joe is just someone who's been so very sheltered, like a lot of people with conservative thinking. Because a lot of conservative thinking is so simplistic, because it's just easier to view the world that way. It's this or it's that. And the more of the world that you see, the more nuance you see. And you see that happen with Hannah. Hannah was the world is this or it's that. And the more she gets exposed to characters like Prior and. And absorbs, you know, their day to day. We see four years later how that has affected her. She's still Hannah Pitt, but she's an evolved Hannah Pitt. And that doesn't necessarily mean, like, oh, she went from Republican to Democrat. I just mean she now sees more nuance in the. Everyone should do well.
- [42:46]
B
I think what Hannah does, which is really beautiful, is she embraces what the best part of a religion is, which is you have to help. You have to help. And it doesn't matter who's sick or how they got sick or who they are. It's you have to help those that can't help themselves. And that's actually kind of beautiful, you know, because I think she's probably been taught, yes, with a caveat like, yes, help people if they're straight. Help people if they're Mormon and everyone else is less than. Which I think is really actually quite lovely. So good for you.
- [43:17]
A
Yeah. And in fact, she kind of. She scolds Prior once or twice because he is prejudice against her when they first meet of, oh, you're Mormon, you come from Utah, you're religious, you're strict. And no. Throws a lot of her beliefs in her face that she sort of spits right back at him and says it's not polite to tell someone that their beliefs are preposterous and all these things. Don't tell me what I think of you.
- [43:41]
B
None of these characters are written well. That's the other thing that I think Angels actually does really well that I don't see a lot of modern playwrights doing, which is whether or not you agree with people that are conservative, they're still human beings that have thoughts and feelings and emotions. And I think that Jo and Har. Sorry, Joe and Hannah are human beings. And there's a lot of plays now where, like the antagonist who is either a Republican or very Christian, it's so one dimensional and two dimensional that you don't under. There is no nu in any of them. There's nuance on both sides. And not to say that you can accept it or approve of it, it's just that it's there and you have to examine both of them.
- [44:22]
A
Yeah, that was one of my issues with the play that Second Stage just did, Cult of Love, which I actually did enjoy. I found it A fun time. But if they wanted to tackle family dynamics as well as religion. And, you know, what do you do when you're really. When you're raised in a religious household and some kids grow up and don't really follow that anymore? Like, the clashing of that. And I found that all of the conservative religious arguments just were strawman arguments for Zachary Quinto or the lesbian daughter to, like, speak for three minutes about progressiveness in a way that. It's not that I don't agree with it. It's just dramatically speaking, I'm like, this feels like a pandering. Not. Not an insightful, dramatic scene.
- [45:04]
B
No. Like, give me conflict. Give me conflict.
- [45:07]
A
Yeah.
- [45:08]
B
And that's actually why that. Harper. Not Harper. I'm so sorry. Hannah and Lewis scene is so good because he's not sorry. Prior Hannah Pryor. I'm so sorry. Please forgive me. Hannah Pryor scene is so good because she can give it back to him as good as he's serving it. And you're sitting there and you're like, oh, you're both actually kind of making good points. We don't have that in theater anymore. That's. I think one of the reasons why Angels is so successful is because it is a debate. It is a. It is a. It is a debate on issues. Like when Roy's with his doctor and, you know, Roy says, I can't. I can't be gay because gay people don't accomplish anything that time. He's not incorrect. Like, he says it. He goes, they can't pass an anti discrimination bill through city council.
- [45:58]
A
Like.
- [45:58]
B
Like, that's not me. And you go, oh, I can. I see the. I don't agree with it, but I can see it.
- [46:03]
A
Yes. Because he defines homosexuality on a political spectrum, not on a human sexuality spectrum.
- [46:10]
B
And I. And that, to me, is fascinating.
- [46:12]
A
Yeah. It all tells you. It doesn't make him right so much as it tells you everything you need to know about him. Not everything that a character says has to be with a play is saying. Sometimes it's a character's belief that we just watch for a while.
- [46:27]
B
Correct. And I wish there were more plays that embraced that particular style, because I think we end up. We don't end up really having any sort of discussions or debates. We just sort of leave the theater patting ourselves on the back for taking the right side of a moral issue. And I don't know how that's advantageous.
- [46:45]
A
Well, I want to pose this to people as well. Rob, have you seen. Have you. Have you seen the Oscar hopeful Amelia Perez.
- [46:58]
B
I have not. Because it's on the last of my. It's at the bottom of my list. I'm sorry, because. Just tell you why everybody I know who has seen it this. And once again, friends, I'm not telling you my opinion because I don't like to give an opinion something I haven't seen. Everyone I know has disliked it. Even people that I thought would be really huge fans and proponents of this movie were like, this is horrible. So I don't. I don't know. I'm so sorry. The answer is no.
- [47:23]
A
The answer is no. Well, you may end up liking it. You've. There are two things that you have really enjoyed that I really have not. So you throw me for a loop sometimes.
- [47:33]
B
What? Like what?
- [47:34]
A
Well, you've been on the POD and said on mic that you really enjoyed Jagged Little Pill. I famously hate it. And you were more up on the Audra Gypsy than I was. And I went back. I actually went back a second time because you were so up on it to see how it had changed.
- [47:48]
B
And may I clarify my Jagged Little Pill point once again, please, if I may. Do I have. Do I have 30 seconds to do so?
- [47:56]
A
I'm gonna give you 55.
- [47:57]
B
My God, it's like a debate. I saw Jagged Little Pill in Boston. I didn't see it on Broadway. I saw it in Boston. And when I saw it in Boston, I thought to myself, this show has a lot of potential if they. 90 million things to it, Right? Because I thought it was a really smart use of using a catalog to tell a particular story. That's. I thought that was a very interesting way of going about it. It wasn't Mamma Mia Esque, where it was like a dumb story and it wasn't, you know, here's Alanis Morissette's life story. Ooh, wow. Like the Bob Dylan thing, which I won't even talk about. So however. However, I will say that I know that they made no changes except erasing the transgender character in the show. That's pretty much the one change they made, was the one thing they weren't supposed to do. So that's my defense on Jagged Little Pale. And do you something really interesting, Matt. I just taught a class with a bunch of 20 year olds who saw. They went on a school field trip and they saw Gypsy and none of them liked it. None of them liked it. And I said to him, I said, is it the show? You don't like the show? And they're like, no, we love the Show. We just didn't feel that they went. It's a lot of stuff that you had been saying, you know, that they didn't. That they didn't feel that it went far enough and that. Yeah, it's interesting. So you are clearly not in the minority on that one.
- [49:17]
A
No, I do speak.
- [49:19]
B
I was going to say you got your finger on the pulse of the kids of tomorrow.
- [49:23]
A
I do believe the children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way.
- [49:26]
B
But you said you saw Gypsy again. You went and saw it a second time.
- [49:29]
A
I saw it a second time. I saw it about a month later because of people like you and because the reviews were such. And also because of, like, Ben Rimmelauer told me to go back. And like, a lot of people told me to go back. They said. Because I saw it, like, four or five days before they froze it.
- [49:44]
B
Yeah.
- [49:44]
A
And I know that George Seawolf really does use previews, but I was like, they're not going to redesign the set. They're not going to re choreograph the whole thing. They're not going to overhaul this strip in five days. But everyone had said, like, no, no. Like, they really used that time. Go back.
- [49:56]
B
Do we know why the strip was so cut down? I know this has nothing to do with Angels in America, but do we know why this strip was cut down?
- [50:01]
A
I have no idea. That's neither here nor there. Point is, the Amelia Perez of it all. Oh, yes, thank you. I also watched it first. It's it. I don't know if you've been caught up on, like, all the Oscar controversies with it and whatnot.
- [50:16]
B
Yeah, I have. Yeah.
- [50:17]
A
So, like, the first part of the controversy was that just the Internet hates the movie. Mexico hates it. A large chunk of the trans community hates it. Not everyone. There are definitely some, you know, trans artists who've been very outspoken about how much they've enjoyed it. But I will say the majority of people who I've seen defend that movie have been on the older, white, boomer, progressive side. People who are not villains. I don't say that to be like, okay, boomer. I'm just saying that's the constant trend I've seen is, like, people over the age of 50 who tend to be white and on the progressive side of the political spectrum. Being like, that movie really moved me. And maybe it did. But what the Emilia Perez controversy now with, like, Carlos Sofia Gascon and all that happening, is that it's really kind of exposing the hollowness of progressive ideals in the Entertainment community and, and the lip service and lack of follow through that these things have. The. The things that a lot of people have talked about. And I'm trying to find a way to watch it myself. There was a movie that came out last year called I Saw the TV Glow.
- [51:27]
B
Oh, I haven't heard of this.
- [51:28]
A
Yeah, it's independent film. It's a trans narrative written and directed by a trans artist. Got great reviews. I couldn't find a way to watch it anywhere for months. But if I were an Academy member, I would have been given a screener and it would have been very, very easy. But a lot of artists have said, like, no people were supporting Emilia Perez because, oh, in this moment, in our political climate, it's important to support trans stories. It's like, yes, but the trans artists out there are telling you this is the one to see, this is the one that gets it the most right. It's also objectively good and not to throw them under the bus. You have people like James Cameron and Meryl Streep being like, I really support Emilia Perez because it's so important right now. It's like, well, when the people. You're saying it's important to her telling you that it's weak, clearly you're, oh, my TV just turned on hearing about how weak Emilia Perez is. But it's telling you like, it tells you sort of how it's not that these people are villains, but it exposes a lot of the hypocrisy and that we're really, in some ways, we're no better than the people we claim are villains. Just in terms of our mindset. We also go for what's easiest and what we. Makes us feel good.
- [52:34]
B
You are absolutely correct. It's like, no, no, no. You know, trans people, we'll do the talking for you. We'll. You just be quiet, just wait and. But we do that a lot with different communities.
- [52:45]
A
I mean, did you see American Fiction starring Tony winner, Emmy winner Belize Jeffrey Wright speaking Angels in America?
- [52:53]
B
I loved American fiction.
- [52:55]
A
It's so good, but I loved it. The scene that I loved, it didn't go as hard satirically as I wanted it to, but that's also, I think, just. It's what I went in expecting. So I would like to watch it again, knowing that it's a little more of like a family drama as well. But the scene where he's on the awards body with Issa Rae and then four white people and the two black members are like, I don't think we should Award this. This book and the one that's telling the black story because, like, I actually find it. They're like a. I think it's objectively a poorly written book in addition to the things that I think it does poorly for the black community. And then the white members are like, I don't know what to tell you. I think that this book is really important to, like. No, I think it's really important for us to uphold black voices. Meanwhile, they are silencing the two black.
- [53:49]
B
Voices in the room that, you know, listen, that happens all the time out here. I'm in LA currently. That's so when I say out here. But, yeah, oh, my God, that happens all the time. All the time. The number. I'm gonna be honest with you. I know a couple of people that are voting in the Academy that are very excited about this particular movie. And I said, oh, so, you know, when did you get a chance to see it? Well, I haven't seen it yet, but I know it's important.
- [54:15]
A
Yep.
- [54:16]
B
And I go, oh, wow. But a bigger point is, like, what you're saying, which is these communities are saying, hey, listen, this is the film that we want. This is the community. This is the film we think represents our community the best. This is what we would like to put out there. And then all these white saviors go, no, no, no, no, no. Let me talk, please. You're right, it is. It's very hypocritical.
- [54:36]
A
The thing is that in. In all communities, right, it's just about getting more stories out there. And a lot of trans artists have said, like, I would probably be less hung up on Amelia Perez if it was one of 30 trans movies that came out this year.
- [54:52]
B
Absolutely, yeah.
- [54:53]
A
It's like, it's. We have so few. And also, like, of the few that we have, it's. This happens to be the one that we all think collectively is the weakest. So it's like, of course this is the one that's taking off because it's the one that makes the most sense to these people who don't understand.
- [55:06]
B
No, it stings. It stings. You know, and like you said, these wonderful. There are. Here's the thing. I'm sure there are a lot of movies out there that deal with this specific subject, but they don't. Like you were saying, you saw. You heard about this movie you wanted to see. You couldn't find it anywhere.
- [55:21]
A
Like, how.
- [55:21]
B
That's. That's the unfortunate thing. Like, how do we elevate those voices? How do we elevate those particular stories.
- [55:29]
A
Well, now we just do it by fucking talking about it and then getting more people to talk about it and demand it. A show like Slave Play, that I think is a bad play and has a lot of harmful stuff in it. What I admire about it is that it doesn't make it easy for an audience to decide how they feel about the subjects that it covers. It forces you to have a conversation with people afterwards. And I will take that so hard over a show that I think is probably something like Cult of Love, which I think is a better structured, better written play than Slave Play, but ultimately doesn't make me question anything. It makes me go out and feel vindicated in how I feel. Slave Play, which I think is a fucking mess. But I was like, you know what? I can have 20 different conversations about it right now.
- [56:16]
B
That's exciting.
- [56:17]
A
Yeah. But this is where it all connects back to Angels, which we will talk more about after this break. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire. And we're back.
- [56:40]
B
Matt demolished 12 Factor Meals. I've never seen anything like this. Just one after another factor must be so good. I wish I knew where to get some.
- [56:50]
A
Robert, the joke is. The joke is that I'm actually on the same fitness journey as you are. And I.
- [57:00]
B
You're on Ozempic.
- [57:02]
A
I'm not on Ozempic, but I'm on the same mind frame with my fitness journey as you are, which is that I'm trying to lose weight.
- [57:07]
B
Never mind. What do you mean you need to lose weight? Look at you. Why do you need to lose weight?
- [57:11]
A
I made the mistake. This. Okay, guys, this is where. This is Angels in America right here in a nutshell. Two gay men talking about this. I went on the scale.
- [57:20]
B
Matt's ripped. I don't know what your problem is.
- [57:23]
A
I have. I have more muscle now than I did, you know, a year ago. Every year I add a little bit more muscle. But that said, three weeks ago, I went on the scale just because. And I. I weigh myself usually once a year. I'm much more a fan of, like, if my clothes are fitting, if I'm liking how I'm looking, it's all good. But it was post New Year's and I was feeling a little kind of wobblier, and I was like, for poops and giggles, what number am I at? And it was the highest number I had been since lockdown.
- [57:51]
B
But Is it muscle?
- [57:53]
A
It's not all muscle. Some of it, but not all. And so I just said to myself, I said, self, we do not believe in starving ourselves. We do not believe in denying ourselves. But we are going to be more mindful of what we eat and how much we eat, as well as when we're working out. So that is what we're doing. I am still a garbage monster. I still love my Oreos. I have Oreos in the kitchen. I still love my alcohol, but I'm balancing it out with a lot more vegetables, a lot more protein, and, you know, scanning out throughout the day when I'm eating and what I'm eating. So that, that's the irony of you saying, like, Matt, a 12 factor meals. Like, I probably would if I were not on this journey right now. I probably would because I love. I actually will say I love. I do objectively love factory meals. They're very tasty. Not all of them are terribly filling.
- [58:46]
B
So I, I think, Matt, it's muscle. I really do. I think you've put on muscle.
- [58:50]
A
It's also, you know, penis weight. I've just, I've gained so much penis weight.
- [58:56]
B
Do you weigh yourself when someone's inside you? Because I think that might be the problem, Matt. You're supposed to do it alone. Okay. For more medical tips, follow me. Dr. Rob. For some advice, like Karen Ziemba and.
- [59:13]
A
Steel Pier, I, too, am willing to ride.
- [59:18]
B
Oh, God.
- [59:19]
A
Oh, my God. That's a deep cut, kids.
- [59:23]
B
That's a deep cut. I think it's muscle, but you do you. I'm proud of you either way.
- [59:26]
A
Thank you. I'm not upset about any of it. It's just. I also, I saw myself on TV recently and I looked good, but I was like, oh, I definitely. That's, that's a bit rounder than my face has been in a while.
- [59:37]
B
I, I think, I honestly think you've put on muscle. I really, I really do. You're also getting. You're bulking. You're bulking.
- [59:43]
A
You haven't seen me in three months. You don't know if it's muscle. I'm.
- [59:46]
B
I'm looking at you right now. I'm looking at you right? I see all your thirst traps that you post. I see that you've put on muscle. What's wrong with that?
- [59:53]
A
First of all, I don't post thirst traps. I post inspiring photos meant to heal the planet and myself.
- [60:01]
B
The man is literally butt naked with his asshole in the air going, vote Kamala.
- [60:05]
A
Like, like, like, like, I'VE never been butt naked in my life, not even in private. I am Joe Pitt with my Mormon underwear. This gets us back to, by the way, Angels in America.
- [60:15]
B
Talking about.
- [60:17]
A
Talking about the gays, talking about plays. Okay, so something about Angels that's fascinating to me is it really is a play that was the juggernaut of its season. Tony Wise especially. Like, at least for the plays. When it came out, it held the record for a long time for the most Tony nominations for a play ever, which was for Millennium Approaches.
- [60:36]
B
Rosenzweig didn't do it for you.
- [60:39]
A
Yeah. Dancing at Lunasa did not sweep in the way that people expected that play. But, you know, Open Snow Ray reviews meet the expectations. Perestroika opens and for the most part, meets expectations. I was reading some of the reviews on Perestroika, and everyone agrees that it is a worthy second part. Some are like, is it as good as Millennium? No, but it is still very good on its own. The only person who really tore Perestroika to a new asshole was Ms. Roma. Tory.
- [61:09]
B
What Roma did.
- [61:11]
A
This is on your YouTube channel. Rob, you posted this.
- [61:13]
B
Did I really?
- [61:15]
A
One of my. One of my favorite memories with Rob W. Schneider is being in his apartment eating pizza and then me having a belly ache because I'm eating cheese, which I shouldn't be doing, drinking bourbon together and watching things through his YouTube channel, the American Musical Theater Archives, which doesn't cover just musical theater. There are plays in there as well, and one time we're watching. It's like two in the morning. At this point, we realized Matt's either taking an Uber home or he's just staying in the night. It's two in the morning, and Rob had, like, just uploaded a week a bunch of videos that he's seeing what he's uploaded, and one is Roma Tory of New York. One her review of Perestroika. And she is so not into it. She doesn't like that they go for the laughs. She thinks that it doesn't make it important enough.
- [62:05]
B
I disagree. I disagree, Roma. I do too. You need the humor.
- [62:10]
A
It's.
- [62:11]
B
It's so. It's so, like, part of our fabric as a community. Like, the humor to survive. Like, you can't do a play without humor.
- [62:19]
A
I was gonna say. Oh, a reviewer, Roma Torre missed the bus. You don't say.
- [62:23]
B
I'm gonna tell you something, and I won't tell you who it is. When I saw the angels that they brought over from the National, I went on a critics night, and across from me was a Very prominent New York critic who was literally asleep the entire show. I'm not talking. I mean, literally sat down, lights went down, he was out. And then gave it an amazing review and said it was life changing and brilliant. And I'm like, bitch, you slept. I saw you sleep. You are sleeping, sir. You were sleeping.
- [62:55]
A
I was going to say, this can't be John Simon because he's dead. And you would totally say if it was John Simon.
- [63:00]
B
If I have a rule, if they've passed away, I'm more than. I interviewed John Simon once. Did I tell you about that?
- [63:05]
A
You did, but tell the listeners about it. First of all, tell them who John Simon was.
- [63:09]
B
Oh, my God. Friends. John, you want to talk about how criticism has changed? John Simon was the critic for New York magazine. And John Simon was the most vitriolic, acidic, just like. I mean, I'll be honest with you, I thought he was a good writer, but he would review people's physical attributes. And the most famous one is that he did. He reviewed Liza Minnelli in the act and, you know, said, like, her chin was having a fight with gravity and was losing. And like, I mean, it's literally a paragraph on how unattractive he found Liza Minnelli. First of all, if you look at John Simon, he's no great shakes either. And we interviewed him once for my old podcast behind the Curtain. And he was some. First of all, I think he had a foot fe that was number one because all he did was talk about Katrina Link's feet in the band's visit. And I was like, sir, like, get in line. What about it? But you want to know something really funny? After he told me the most racist, misogynistic, homophobic stories, I asked him, I said, is there anything that you really like on Broadway right now? And he said, yes, I love the prom. And I said, oh. And he goes, yes, the man with the weird name. Brooks. Brooks. And I said, ash man. He goes, yes. He goes, that man is a genius. And I was like, here was a guy using literally the F bomb in every single way. He was describing gay plays going like, I love the prom. And then he asked for money for food.
- [64:33]
A
Yeah, what I'll say about John Simon. And this is not a slant on the prom, but if you ever read his reviews, he is a very talented writer. He's clever like an. Like in anybody else. I thought he is a. Was objectively a terrible critic. A. I thought he had often pretty bad taste, but then also he was just bad about communicating what made something Good or bad. He just was so. He was talk about somebody who was so insistent on being quotable, whether it was a good review or a bad review. And of course, of course, detriment of the reviews overall. And it made him feared and made him hated and it kept him employed because people would talk about them. But like. Like we think about it now, no one really knows much about him or talks much about him.
- [65:15]
B
I mean, there's two. There's a book on his film criticism. There's a book on his theater criticism, and I think he was also a music reviewer as well. Read the theater one. It's just interesting to see, like, you were saying, how he wrote. Yeah, I do feel like at the end of reading the reviews, I didn't really get a sense of what it was like being in that theater at that particular moment. I just walk away going, wow, he knows a lot of big words.
- [65:35]
A
He sure do. It's what. It's why I always thought that when Frank Rich, first of all, whoever's the head critic at the New York Times always gets the raw end of the deal, no matter who they are.
- [65:45]
B
Sure.
- [65:46]
A
It's only once they leave, people go, oh, if only we could get them back. Like, Bradley was. I wouldn't say reviled, but, like, he would get made fun of all the time. And now that it's Jesse Green, everyone's like, oh, my God, bring Brantley back. I'm like, you're gonna miss Green, whoever the next critic is.
- [66:01]
B
Oh, yeah, it's always gonna be like that. Yeah, it's always going to be.
- [66:04]
A
But Frank Rich is my favorite of all the New York Times critics. What?
- [66:07]
B
Oh, Same Hot Seat, an amazing book. And also, have you read Ghost Light?
- [66:13]
A
I have.
- [66:14]
B
Ghost Light is one of my favorite books on theater. It really is. That one is so good. Friends, if you get the chance to read Frank Rich's Ghost Light, please, please do so. It's really, really incredible. What do you think about critics or, like, new outlets now being like, okay, well, this play is by August Wilson, so we're going to send a critic of color to go see it. Or this play is by Amy Herzog, so we're going to send a female identifying critic to go and see it. You don't have to. I was just.
- [66:45]
A
I'm just everyone. It's hard to talk about and not make it sort of sound like a trap, because I'll put it this way, it's what I think ultimately ties us back to Angels in America, which is.
- [66:58]
B
That.
- [67:00]
A
I think that the best Theater, the absolute best theater, which not everything is, but we should always be kind of striving for in whatever genre that means, whether that is an Angels in America or the Prom or an Ain't Misbehaving or Offenses or a Noises Off. Right. The best theater is able to get a thousand people from various walks of life, some a little more similar than others, some from wildly different walks of life, and can make them have a similar experience, can make them feel a similar way about the same story, different ways about the same story. And I am really, I get very prickly when people go, well, this work isn't for you. There are works that maybe don't resonate as well with me because of the life I've lived and the things that I've experienced. And that's totally fine. I don't feel defensive about that. I absolutely understand that there are certain plays by me not being a woman, me not being trans, me not me being Caucasian, that some things just maybe won't resonate with me as well. But I think the best plays can reach across the stage to people who maybe it's not about and go, you, you won't understand every nuance of this, but this will affect you. And I think that that is the best. Where it gets tricky is I don't like the idea of nine heterosexual white men going to see Angels or going to see Fences and telling us what they think. I would love it if there was a slew of various viewpoints. Yes, I my, honestly, my biggest concern. This is going to sound ageist, but I'm starting to disregard more and more the reviews of certain theater critics past a certain age just because I'm start, their taste levels have become so transparent to me that even if they give something a good review, I'm reading review going, that's why you like it. Something I've learned about Jesse Green is if he likes the material of a show, that's if he's seeing a revival of something, if he likes the material, if the production is even just okay but respectful, it gets a critics pick.
- [69:17]
B
Yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right.
- [69:19]
A
If it's a show that the material he loves, they're doing something weird with it, whether it works or not, he will give it a bad review. If it is a production, if it's an interesting production or a good production of a show he doesn't like, he will disregard everything that the production does because he doesn't like the show itself. And I'm like, that actually for me makes you A bad critic.
- [69:37]
B
Who is your. I don't want to say your favorite critic now, but, like, who's a critic that. You and I know we don't agree with critics all the time, but who do you genuinely enjoy reading? Or if you had to say, hey, this is an example of good criticism, who would you go to? Current.
- [69:52]
A
Current, I think Sarah Holdren.
- [69:55]
B
Oh, yeah. Okay.
- [69:56]
A
Yeah, I like her a good deal. She. What I like about Sarah is that she, she acknowledges what something is trying to do and then how she felt about it.
- [70:08]
B
That's. Yeah, well, yeah, that's what. That's what it should be, I think.
- [70:10]
A
Exactly. Which, and to be fair, there are times when, like, Jesse or Elizabeth or, you know, other critics will do similar things. But then I go, but you're not meeting it where it's at now. You're, you're, you acknowledge this is what they're doing and, and not for me. I'm like, okay, but can you live in the world that it's trying to set and tell me if that's successful or not? And you can. I really dislike Johnny in the post because I just, I don't like his taste much, but he's sort of the inverse of me, of Jesse, where it's like, I will agree with both of them three times a year, and it's more of a. Oh, a broken clock was right twice.
- [70:45]
B
Oh, yeah. Okay, okay, okay.
- [70:48]
A
But this. But again, going back to Angels, like, Angels being this juggernaut of its time of, you know, being nominated for so much, winning so much doing well, having good reviews, not really getting backlash at the time, and I feel like still not really ever receiving any backlash. Angels, the worst thing that's ever come Angels, in America's way, when it keeps sort of popping up, is there's always somebody who goes, you know, it's not as good as people say.
- [71:14]
B
I don't know what that means.
- [71:16]
A
There, there's, there's always the antagonistic, the contrarian point of view. Someone has to be the one to say the good thing isn't as good as you think it is.
- [71:29]
B
Okay.
- [71:30]
A
Which honestly bores me. It's one thing for something like an Emilia Perez, which is just. That is divisive. And I would argue it's probably braver right now to come out in a think piece and talk about why it's amazing, just considering what the public thinking of it is. But I also think it's really cool when a really popular work is accepted by, you know, so many and then starts getting the little bit of the not as good as people say, then coming up with a like, well, actually, here I'm going to give you a thorough dissertation on why the majority opinion is actually correct.
- [72:08]
B
Well, I'm actually just genuinely curious, like, yes, no, no piece of art is perfect because there is no such thing as perfection. But, like, what are some of the criticisms about Angels in America that people go, it's not what. It's. It's not the length. It's what character development, structure, what do people get?
- [72:24]
A
Some of it is. Some of it is the length. And to be fair, I will say, watching Paris Strike at the library today, the Broadway version of Perestroika, again, Kushner made a lot of changes to it since then. It is still in three acts. Like, millennium approaches. Act one is almost 90 minutes long. It. There's. There's a moment or Perestroika should end in Act 1, and it doesn't. It goes on for another 30 minutes. And that I'm watching, going, like, like I under knowing the process of how Perestroika got to the Broadway stage. And it's like a miracle that it even happened. I get why a lot of things did not end up on the cutting room floor just yet, why it took a couple more years of distance and other versions and the HBO series and whatnot for Kushner to kind of come back and restructure some shit. All for the better. But, yeah, length is something that people have an issue with. They. A lot of people find it indulgent in length. There is criticism of the character of Belize being the only bipoc character and being mostly in service to white characters, which I think is a grossly simplistic view of that role. But that's me.
- [73:32]
B
Belize, to me, in that particular play, is the character that I think everybody should want to be.
- [73:38]
A
Yeah.
- [73:38]
B
You know, they are honest. They are. They live their truth. They have no problem speaking their thoughts. There's nothing about them that goes unsaid or unfiltered. And to me, like, if I. If you were like, hey, you had to pick one of these characters to be for the rest of your life, I would pick Belize. Belize, yes. Their character, the occupation of the character, yes. Is in service. But who they are as a human being is monumental.
- [74:07]
A
Absolutely. Belize also, by the way, is not the only nurse in the show. There is a female nurse in Angels in America, by the way. So it's. Yeah, it's, I believe, to me, is the only adult in Angels in America.
- [74:21]
B
Is the only adult in the room. Yes.
- [74:22]
A
Only adult in the room. Belize has a job that he is good at, knows what he's talking about. Belize is a good friend. Belize is smart. Belize is articulate. And Belize also knows when to pull back and hold off and. And knows when to strike. As I said, sometimes there are times when Belize will maybe strike a little harder than he needs to. But that's what, you know, humans. That's when he's getting emotional. It's when he's in the presence of Lewis and his dislike of Lewis and his hatred for what Lewis has done to his best friend.
- [74:54]
B
Yes.
- [74:54]
A
Overpowers him. And he just goes in for the jugular, honestly, because Louis deserves it. And Belize is the most insightful character. He sees everyone else pretty clearly and has a very good sense of self.
- [75:06]
B
Yes. Yeah. So I. Okay, I. I really like Belize.
- [75:10]
A
As do I. I'm saying that's. Belize is a character that has come under scrutiny before. And I. Some. I've heard people out. I. Again, I. I totally listen. And I can understand some people just, like, at the very thought of the one black character is a nurse. Is something that could maybe, you know, ruffle some feathers. I'm like, okay, but are you watching what he's doing, what he's saying? I said this with the Ali Gordon episode, you know, Roy cone, when he gets his diagnosis and millennium approaches of aids, and he's like, no, I. I don't have aids. Homosexuals get aids, and I'm not a homosexual, because I can get done. Homosexuals can't get done. We flash Forward to Act 3 of Perestroika, and he's dead. With a lifetime supply of AZT in his hospital fridge. Belize recruits Lewis, the person he. Now that Roy is dead, the person that he hates most on this planet, to pack mule out the AZT and distribute it among the people he knows who needs it. I'm like, oh, a homosexual who got something done, and it's Belize.
- [76:11]
B
Yes. Oh, I love that. Did I tell you I played Roy Cohn in college?
- [76:14]
A
You did not.
- [76:15]
B
I played Roy Cohn in college. Yeah.
- [76:17]
A
How did that go?
- [76:19]
B
It was probably the best imitation of Al Pacino playing Roy Cohn you've ever seen in your life.
- [76:25]
A
I. I will say I really love what Al Pacino does with that role.
- [76:28]
B
Oh, same, same. I'm gonna be honest with you. I think that reminded everybody what a good actor he is, because if you remember his career in the 90s after of a Woman in Glengarry, it was not good. It was really not good. And he was Just like always, playing the same version of himself. And then all of a sudden you were like, what the is this? Oh, my God.
- [76:48]
A
I know. And even post Angels, I kind of went bad again. But like, in that moment.
- [76:53]
B
Oh, in that moment, he was so wonderful. God, he was so good in that. But yes, that's. That was it. The only thing I remember about doing this is we had an acting coach and she was this very sweet little old lady. She was about yay big and my fingers are not very far apart. She used to come up to give the guy playing the doctor line readings and she goes, no, no, no, it's not in your rectum. It's in your rectum. And like, all she. Why is this old lady screaming about rectums? But yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was it. Maybe we'll do a little revival of it for you. You know, maybe you can be Lewis and I can be Roy and we can get a little cast together.
- [77:30]
A
Well, I was going to ask you. Now you're on the directing side of things.
- [77:35]
B
Yeah, I am now. Yeah. Because I think people were like, kind of want to see all this.
- [77:39]
A
Well, and you. And you. So you. Casting is a big part of your life and how you approach casting your shows. Let's say you're. You're being asked to do a production of Angels.
- [77:49]
B
Both.
- [77:49]
A
Both parts. And you're giv. You are given, you know, a long rehearsal period so you don't have to worry about, oh, scheduling, anything like that. And you're given a sizable budget, a decent size stage, and you don't have to necessarily give me names, names, but, like, let's. I want to sort of go through the roles of angels, the tracks of angels, and as a director, what you would be looking for from an actor for those parts.
- [78:14]
B
What a great question. Oh, my God, what a really, really good question.
- [78:17]
A
So let's start from the tippity toppity. Let's start with Roy Cohn, which you. You have played.
- [78:22]
B
You might have seen my not Tony nominated, non Olivier award winning performance. Somebody who's primal, who's visceral. What I loved about Ron Liebman's performance is there was no fear. There was no fear in Roy Khan, even, even when he was dying. There was no fear in this guy. And I really love that. That's. So I'm looking for somebody who's visceral and raw and there's no fear in this person. I want a dangerous. I want. I want you to feel danger when this guy's on stage. And I felt. I felt that with Ron Liebman. And I'm going to be honest with you, I love Nathan Lane. I just love him. I never once felt afraid of him watching it. And I love him as an actor. But Ron Lehman, I was like, I'm terrified of this guy.
- [79:10]
A
Yeah. I think with. With Nathan Lane, part of it might be his stature, but also what I like, what I did like about Nathan's Roy Cohen, I did. He was probably my favorite. Yeah, he's probably my favorite performance in that production. And the fact that he is my fourth favorite Roy that I've seen is more the fact that I've yet to see a bad Roy. My favorite Roy at the moment from memory, is Frank Wood in the signature production. Who was.
- [79:36]
B
Didn't see that.
- [79:37]
A
Yeah, that was a production that I was half in on. But what I was in on the most was him.
- [79:43]
B
He.
- [79:44]
A
Because he was sort of a mixture of Al Pacino and Ron Liebman. He had the viciousness and the like, disgustingness of Ron Liebman's Roy cone with the charm and the oozing charisma of Pacino.
- [79:59]
B
Pacino in the bar scene when he is. Is. That's a masterclass.
- [80:04]
A
Yeah.
- [80:04]
B
When he takes Joe out for a drink, that's a masterclass. So, yeah, so that's. I would be looking for somebody that literally. That terrifies you, I think. Somebody who terrifies you and doesn't. And there's. There's never any hesitance or fear. So that's what I would be looking at for. For that particular role.
- [80:19]
A
Okay, next up, Prior Walter, who. And we should also say, you know, the character of Roy Cohn, you also double as one of the Prior Walter ancestors, but you don't really have to worry about that so much. Prior Walter does also double as the leather daddy in Central park, who. Who tops Lewis.
- [80:34]
B
But.
- [80:34]
A
So, Prior Walter, what are you looking for?
- [80:36]
B
Oh, my gosh. It's this one's. This one's somebody with fierce intelligence. Hold on, I have to think for a second. I forget. Oh, you don't edit. Right. So I should think faster. I can't. I can't.
- [80:51]
A
Well, I can't. While you. You take a moment to think, I will say something that's always been important to me with Prior and I. I've talked about this twice now, and I'll say that again. There is a femininity and a flamboyancy to Pryor that is performative in the sense that it is a shield, but it has to be like a second Skin to whoever's playing it.
- [81:11]
B
Yes, Yes, I agree with you. I'm looking for something with him that. There's an ethereal quality about it. What I loved about Steven Spinella. Right. Cause Steven did it originally. Stephen feels otherworldly. I don't know how to describe it, but there's something about Stephen that, yes, it is grounded in reality, but there's something about him that makes you feel like there's something that he's able to communicate or see that none of us. None of us can. And there's something about that sort of quality that I'm looking for. There has to be also this peace about this person. This is as the play develops. So I'm looking for somebody that has this almost ethereal, like, quality. That's what I'm.
- [81:54]
A
The Waifish, almost. Yeah.
- [81:56]
B
Oh, yeah. Wayfish. But you look at the. You know. You know who it kind of reminds me of, and this is going to sound so weird. Have you ever talked to Andre de Shields?
- [82:07]
A
In my dreams.
- [82:08]
B
In your dreams? When you talk to Andre, you're like, I'm not on this. This guy's not on the same plane as us. In a good way. Like, in a good way. Like, not. Like, there's something cosmic that this guy has tapped into. And I think that's really important with Prior. You have to believe it. You have to, you know, you. Yes, we get to see the angel talking to him and all that stuff, but I think you have to genuinely believe that this guy is fully on board with all of this. So, yeah, that's what I'm looking for.
- [82:31]
A
In a Prior, then in a Lewis Ironson. What are you looking for in a Lewis?
- [82:36]
B
Oh, a jazz musician with words.
- [82:43]
A
A jazz musician with words. I love that.
- [82:46]
B
Yeah. I mean, this guy, he. It's up, it's down. He's. I mean, it's literally the most musical. Musical thing you'll ever believe in your. And he shows the performance like, you know, there's some, you know, you. I think you see his exhaustion or I. I think you see his elation. I think that, yeah, a jazz musician with words. He's. He's. His. His mouth, I think sometimes is probably 10ft ahead of his. Of his mind. Makes sense.
- [83:16]
A
Do you think that Lewis is the same Lewis with Prior and Belize and Joe, or is there a little switching in any of that?
- [83:25]
B
I'm going to be honest with you, I don't think so. I think that's one of Lewis's big problems, which is Louis is Louis, and Lewis doesn't know how to change for other people. That's just how. That's how I kind of perceive it. He goes through. Obviously, there's different. I think the sadness with Joe is the same sadness he would have with Belize or a friend or somebody else. I think that's what scares Louis. Louis has so clearly crafted this idea in his mind and has made such snap judgments. That's what's kind of scary is not a lot of things. I think. I don't think you see as much of the impact of Lewis that probably should be there for. To be a healthy person. Do you think. You think it changes depending on who he's with?
- [84:07]
A
No, it wasn't a trick question. I mean, I kind of also. Because I wasn't quite sure myself when I asked you that. I was watching, like, I'm watching Ben Shankman in the miniseries. Right. And he is ultimately the same Lewis of everyone. He's maybe a little less babbily with Patrick Wilson's Joe, but that's because he's sort of a new presence.
- [84:28]
B
Yeah.
- [84:29]
A
And he's. In that sense, he's kind of the adult of the two. He's the one who's more experienced of the gay world and whatnot. With Belize, he's constantly fighting. And with Prior, he's kind of always skating, but he is still him. I agree with that. I think Louis's ultimate tragedy of the. The sword he keeps falling on is that he can't adjust the temperature to any room he's in.
- [84:53]
B
Oh, no. And that's that problem.
- [84:56]
A
Yeah. There's a way to being true to yourself while also acknowledging that other people have different energies and different tempos. And it doesn't make you shallow or fake by adjusting yourself. It shows a respect to the person you're with that you're seeing that they are maybe not in sync with you and, you know, just adjusting your speed, adjusting your. Your flow.
- [85:17]
B
Yeah.
- [85:17]
A
And he's not like that. He's a. He's a. He's a rhinoceros at the ballet.
- [85:21]
B
Yes. I love that. I love that.
- [85:23]
A
I like yours. A jazz musician with words. Okay, Joe Pitt. What are you looking for in a Joe?
- [85:32]
B
God. I mean, this guy is. He's so. He's so broken and tries not to show it. A shell. I'm looking for a shell. I'm looking for a body that's moving, but I don't think there's a lot happening anymore. I think that this. It's almost like. It's like the last bit of life is Being drained out of him. When we meet him, he's. He's all. He's very. In my mind, he's very robotic. He wakes up, he does his thing and he's. It's a shell to me. I'm looking for a shell. I know that sounds kind of vague, but that's what I'm looking for.
- [86:05]
A
Do you think then it's important that Joe be handsome? Be like classically handsome?
- [86:10]
B
I do, I do. I think Joe is. Joe has. There's an idea of what perfection was back then. And I think Joe is as close, wants to achieve that as much as possible. And I think a lot of that comes from his physicality. Yeah, I think he's, you know, blonde haired, blue eyed, you know, the traditional, like good looking, you know, guy of the 1980s. Yeah. There's no life. There's no life left in this man. I think we meet him like. It's like a fire that's about to flicker out. And then he meets Louis and we watch it build up again. I don't think it ever goes back to its full height.
- [86:48]
A
We never. We see Joe genuinely happy for all of maybe three pages of Angels in America. And it is in the. It is in the thick of the forest of his sex haze with. With Lewis. Oh, I meant to make a joke during my Redwood review and I come and I forgot to say it. So I just want to say this. I was gonna. I was gonna make a joke about, you know, trying to separate the intention of me execution and seeing which one is better. But ultimately I could not see the forest for the tree.
- [87:20]
B
But he'll be here all week, folks.
- [87:23]
A
But also, but also, neither could the creative team of Redwood. But so again, people will hear that joke about a month after that, right, folks?
- [87:32]
B
Laugh. It's still funny. You should also sense that there's like 20 walls around this guy. Like that there's something. There's something about his energy or that's impenetrable.
- [87:44]
A
Do you think there's a sweetness to him as well?
- [87:49]
B
I think deep down there is because.
- [87:52]
A
I was of the. Of the Joes that I've now seen. Patrick Wilson, David Marshall Grant, Bill Heck, Russell Tovey, and Lee Pace. I would say that Russell and Patrick were probably the sweetest. Patrick was sort of like more of a bland kind of sweet. And Russell was very much like a puppy dog. Lee Pace was the shell that you were sort of talking about. And because he was just so tall and looked so corny. David Marshall Grant. I was surprised at how unsweet his. His Joe was. He was, like, kind of vicious.
- [88:25]
B
Oh, he's. This is his Joe, you know, at least from the. From an outside perspective, comes from a place of anger. This is a man. This is a man who is absolutely angry and frustrated because he can't really articulate why he's the way he is. I think that, honestly, I think Joe does have sweetness, but I think the problem with Joe is every time he's tried to be vulnerable or try to be open, he gets chastised for it. So I. I think he can't allow himself to be sweet. I think he can't allow him sweetness means I care about you. If I'm being sweet to you, it's because I care about you. He can't really invest. He can't care about people because he gets. He gets slapped on the wrist for it. So to me, I think it's there, but I think it's deeply buried. David was brilliant. David was just from a place of. I have this rage in me that I can't express. And why is the world the way it is? And why is my wife like this? And why is my mother like this? It's understandable, but that's also the brilliance of this play. There's 90 different ways of playing these characters, and all of them are probably really valid.
- [89:26]
A
Yeah. I will say, angry as he was when he and Joe Mantello's Lewis hug at the end of Millennium approaches before he takes him home, you watch David Marshall Grant just sort of collapse into Joe Mantello's arms without it being like a huge moment. It's not like he's not putting his whole body weight into him, but he just watch him sort of relax for a moment and just really desperately need not just compassion, but compassion from a man who's not a father figure, who's not a scary stranger. And you see him, it's not even a relaxation. It's just sort of slight relief. And that's the pang that you get from his Joan. And when I say, like, his was a Joe, that was sort of playing the long game, because it is, as you're right, it was a lot of anger, and that's a lot of viciousness. And so when you do see those moments of tenderness, it breaks her heart a little bit.
- [90:22]
B
Yeah. And I think he and Lewis are both kind of on a similar journey, which is, why can't my spouse be healthy?
- [90:27]
A
Yeah.
- [90:27]
B
You know, it's. And I think that's something that's really beautiful. Yeah. So that's What I'm looking for in.
- [90:32]
A
A Joe and why can't I be the person.
- [90:34]
B
Yeah, my.
- [90:35]
A
My person needs. Yeah, yeah, it's. I will talk more about that in a second because I was sort of struck this time around on the heart to heart that Joe and Lewis have in Perestroika when they're in their sex haze talking because they both have abandoned their partners and are shacking up together for different and with different mindsets. Joe sort of finding a safe haven to blossom under and possibly a road to move forward down. And Lewis looking basically for a distraction while he escapes his reality for a little bit. But we'll get to that a little bit after a break. We'll do the rest of the cast actually after this break. You're the top.
- [91:18]
B
Yeah.
- [91:20]
A
You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Freddy. And we're back. So let's wrap up the rest of what you're looking for in this cast. Next, male character, Belize. Who are you looking for as an actor in Belize?
- [91:43]
B
They see something in your soul that you didn't even know was there. Somebody who is a laser focused truth teller. I mean, to me, Jeffrey Wright is the. Is perfection. Jeffrey Wright. To me, that's it.
- [91:56]
A
Oh, no, he's. He's absolutely the best. Believes, always will be. What do you think it is? How do you think Jeffrey Wright is able to have that laser focus while still being incredibly funny? Because I've seen Belizes that have the focus and have like the anger, the truth telling us, but are just. No comedy can be found.
- [92:15]
B
Oh, what? No, no, that's. That's, that's. No, that's not good.
- [92:20]
A
Oh, I know, I know.
- [92:22]
B
That's no, that's denying the brilliance of the role. You think this person has survived so long without a sense of humor. It's so you. You can be focused and you can be funny. He uses the humor as a weapon. Even. Even if he says something that he knows is funny, just to make him his own self laugh is important. Yeah. So for me it's so, yes, there should be humor there. There should be humor there. You've seen unfunny beliezes.
- [92:51]
A
Yeah. I won't go into it too much, but Billy Porter was Belize at the signature revival. And I'm, I'm telling you, nary a laugh to be found.
- [93:00]
B
Interesting.
- [93:01]
A
And that's not a comment on Porter as a performer in general, but that specific production in that performance it was. There was not a laugh to be found, which is unfortunate because Belize is. I agree. Belize is incredibly funny. And, and isn't he a drag performer? He and Prior used to do drag. And it is implied in Angels that Belize is dabbling in it again.
- [93:25]
B
You ever see a drag queen that wasn't funny? Like, what kind? I mean, it's, it's part of who he is. It's part of his DNA. And he uses that humor to disarm you. He also, I think, uses that humor a lot to also tell you who's in charge. Because I think a lot of the stuff he does with Roy Cohn, while Roy is like, I'm in charge in this hospital room with humor. Belize is like, no, you're not.
- [93:47]
A
Yeah.
- [93:48]
B
And can stay focused, but cut him down to size.
- [93:51]
A
Yeah. I think it's in, in world only spins forward. George C. Wolf, I think, is the one who says when casting Jeffrey Wright as the role and, and their approach to Belize, he was like, you know, Belize is not dumb. And Belize is not the sassy black friend. Belize is black. Belize is sassy. But you know, the, the scene where he and Lewis are fighting in the diner, the Democracy in America scene. George Seagull was like, Belize isn't, you know, Belize didn't find Democracy in America boring to read because he's dumb. He found it boring to read because he's just that smart. There's like nothing he doesn't know and 20,000 things in it that he can disprove. Yeah. So when he's sitting there not talking during Lewis's diatribe, it's just because he's like, I'm going to let him dig his own grave.
- [94:38]
B
And that's funny.
- [94:39]
A
It's very funny.
- [94:40]
B
Yeah. A truth teller.
- [94:42]
A
A truth teller. All right, now we've got our ladies, Ms. Harper Pitt.
- [94:49]
B
It's going to sound contradictory. An intense vulnerability to her. Somebody who has the ability. Let me go back. One of the things I really admire about her is she's in a very uncomfortable place. However she feels. Oh, does she feel? I, I've, I've. One of the. I've seen, I've seen. Oh, God, what's the Harper's. Where it's just, they sort of play the drug induced haze and, and that's, that's, that's just one color of her. She, she is probably as in touch, is more in touch with her emotions than anybody else in this play. She has the ability. She has no fucks to give anymore. And so what I'm looking for is someone who can be vulnerable but also not ashamed of the vulnerability. Does that make sense?
- [95:42]
A
Yeah. Harper has a lot of self awareness about herself and as. Yeah. As you said, she's not embarrassed by it.
- [95:51]
B
No, no, no, no. Also a truth teller. Also a truth teller. I. There's, like I said, there's a vulnerability about her, but she's also really strong.
- [96:08]
A
Who's a Harper that you've really enjoyed? I.
- [96:13]
B
There were elements. There were a lot of elements of Mary Louise Parker's that I really liked. There were a lot of elements of Mary Louise Parker's. Everything, like you said, like the San Francisco. The night flight to San Francisco. I remember watching it and just crying because I thought it was so beautifully delivered. Marcia Gay Harden. You know, it's kind of interesting. Like, if you can give me Marcia Gay Harden from Millennium Approaches and then you gave me Mary Louise Parker from Perestrika, I think I would have a perfect Harper in my mind.
- [96:41]
A
That's fair. Marcia K. Harden, her Harper. She is. I wanna. I'm not gonna say the word tough, but she is. But what I mean, but I think when people think tough, they think like harsh and cold. And it's. That's not what I mean. It's more like. Marcia's Harper is much more of a fighter, whereas Mary Louise Parker's Harper is more of a floater.
- [97:05]
B
Yeah. You. You get the feeling with Mary Louise Parker's like, it's like, this is my life. And Marcia Gay Hardin is like, this could be my life. And I'm gonna fight with my last breath to make sure it isn't.
- [97:16]
A
Yes.
- [97:17]
B
And there's still wonderful colors on both. But like I said, I feel like what Marcia was doing in act one. I'm sorry, in part one, what Mary Louise Parker is doing in act two, like, to me, that would be the perfect combination.
- [97:31]
A
I think it's easy when playing Harper to get indulgent with the texts of her visions, because that is where a lot of the very flowery poetry lives. And you have to sort of decide when it's making complete sense to Harper and when it is sort of her just sort of catching words in the air while she's high on Valium and making sense of it. The scene with her and prior the first scene, because they share three scenes. They share one in the dream hallucination in Millennium. They then have the Mormon visit or send her together and then they have Heaven. I also say Marcia, you know, up and down as I am on her performance in it, she absolutely nails The Mormon Visitor center scene where she's just sitting there eating junk food and watching the dummy diorama with Prior, she. She gets a major laugh point when. Because one of the things that Allie and I talked about is in the miniseries, they do take away a lot of the magic and have all the more otherworldly stuff happen solely with Prior or solely with Harper. And there's a couple of moments of magic outside of that, but it's like they kind of go a little more harshly realistic and they cut the scene where Prior and Harper meet in the real world and are at. In front of the diorama watching the diorama happen, only for Lewis to all of a sudden enter the diorama and the dummy that looks like Joe now is Joe. And they're having this conversation fully in the real world, and both Harper and Prior can see that. And then Lewis and Joe go off. And I always thought that that was sort of evidence that Harper was also a prophet because. And that the angel is actually real in many ways. But when. When Lewis and Joe go up because Prior sees Lewis come on stage and Harper has no idea who Lewis is. She just sees him. She's like, oh, yeah, that annoying guy. She's like, I always hate it when he shows up. He has absolutely nothing to do with the story. And then they walk off and it's like. It's this scene that is crazy. And the audience is, like, not sure what to make of it. And Mary Louise Parker just gets up, her hair and little pigtails. She looks past the curtain, and she turns over to Steven Spinell and she shouts, well, the little creep never walked off stage with him before. Like, I was like. She's like, the dummy never walked off stage with a creep before. And the audience just loses it. She was like, they're gonna blame me. It's so. It's so fun. Yeah, I. I think.
- [99:54]
B
Yeah.
- [99:54]
A
I think there's a way to not make Harper a total victim. But you do have to channel how much pain she is in and there. And find out where to let it come out. Because in the threshold of revelation with Harper and Prior, I was struck by how empathetic it was between Spinella and Hardin. Like, they were. They, like, they. They. When they get to the, like, the talking about the truth with each other, they're not doing it. Whereas Kirk and Parker in the miniseries, it's a little more cutesy. And you see Spinella and Hardin really connect in the second half of that scene.
- [100:28]
B
Yeah. Yeah. You also have to have somebody that's a trap that I see sometimes with a Harper that I'm like, oh, I don't know if I would go that route with it is. There's a lot of times where you're like, she just hates Jo. Like, there's no love. Like, there's no love between these two people. And they don't have to be like, lovey, lovey dovey. But I'm like, you have to see that there's some. There's something there. There was something there at one point. Yeah.
- [100:51]
A
And there's a. I think there's genuine care and affection. There's. I think he resents her for so many of the things that has made their life difficult. But a lot of things that she's done to make their life difficult is a. In response to how he has treated her, he.
- [101:06]
B
Yes. Everything that's wrong in his life, he's put into her because he can't. He can't confront the truth. Yeah. And you're right. He needs a way of escaping it. And then he resents her for the way she escapes. And it's like, well, she wouldn't be escaping if you had just been on, so. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah.
- [101:21]
A
And then it's a vicious cycle, and ultimately one that ends only because Harper herself has finally gathers the strength to cut it off and go. And as I said, Hardin really does play just how difficult it is for her to do it.
- [101:34]
B
Yeah.
- [101:34]
A
And the resolve it takes. And I thought that that was very effective.
- [101:37]
B
Yes.
- [101:37]
A
Hannah Pitt and all of the characters that. That she plays. I think in this one, you're looking for not just, like, how to play Hannah, but a specific kind of actress. Right. Because you're not just playing Hannah. You're playing the doctor, the male doctor. You're playing the oldest living Bolshevik. You're playing the rabbi at the top of the show, and you're playing Ethel Rosenberg.
- [101:55]
B
Is Tova Felshew available?
- [101:59]
A
Because she looks like a Mormon?
- [102:02]
B
She can do anything. She's Tova Felschiu.
- [102:05]
A
She was just on the Netflix show with Kristen Bell and Adam Brody.
- [102:09]
B
Oh, really? Oh, yeah, that's right.
- [102:10]
A
She plays Adam Brody's mother, who's clearly like, a Russian immigrant who's done very well for herself.
- [102:15]
B
I would want somebody who's. This is gonna sound so weird. I would want somebody whose resume is, like, they've played every major Shakespeare heroine. I would want somebody who was Lady M, who is Gertrude, who is. I want, like, somebody that just has.
- [102:29]
A
That ability in them that is definitely Kathleen Chalfont. She.
- [102:34]
B
She's intelligent. Fiercely intelligent.
- [102:38]
A
Yeah. She plays all those parts with fire and brimstone. It sounds so basic to say now that I've seen all four or five different women play this track. And Kathleen is wonderful. It's so basic to say that having seen all of them, Meryl is my top version of all of them. And I think what it is for me is there's such a distinction among all the parts that she plays in it. And granted, she doesn't get to play the doctor, but she does play the rabbi. And she plays Ethel and she plays Hannah. And what I love about her. Ethel.
- [103:10]
B
Her.
- [103:11]
A
Ethel Rosenberg is that she's a little bit of a stinker.
- [103:15]
B
Yes.
- [103:17]
A
Like the. I don't remember the. The name of the woman who did it in the National. It's like maybe Hannah Brown or something like that, or Susan Brown, maybe something like that. Her. Ethel is very, like, nasty and, like a mean girl.
- [103:31]
B
And Meryl Streep's enjoying this.
- [103:33]
A
Oh, yeah. You don't look so good, Roy. And the way she's like. Was she dialing the fun? She goes, ah, it sings buttons. Such things they have. Now her final speech to Roy as he's dying. It's so soft, but it's so direct. And Kathleen definitely plays the Shakespeare of it all. It's the Gertrude. She's, like, screaming the entire thing. And granted different mediums. But the softness with which Meryl delivers the star of Ethel Rosenberg speech to Roy is almost scary because of how nonchalant it is.
- [104:04]
B
Yes. It's so good. She's so good.
- [104:06]
A
Yeah. And I love her Hannah, too. She.
- [104:09]
B
Her.
- [104:10]
A
Hannah's a bit more uncomfortable by everything, but it's sort of like she's. It's. It's reminding me of that line in oh, Mary, right before the cabaret act where Mary finds out in the dictionary that a mountain is just a valley that's been formed by a lot of pressure through tectonic plates and has risen. And I'm like, in a lot of ways, that sort of Hannah Pitt's. Meryl's. Hannah Pitt is that she's uncomfortable by this New York that she sees, but she's able to survive it pretty immediately and soon after will thrive in it. Well, that.
- [104:42]
B
I mean, listen, I don't. Hannah has not. Not had the easiest life. You know, she.
- [104:48]
A
She.
- [104:49]
B
New York is challenging, but I'm sure she's had bigger challenges in her life.
- [104:53]
A
Hannah's second scene in all of Angels in America because she's. You forget how late she's introduced in.
- [104:59]
B
The show very late.
- [105:00]
A
Yeah. Not until the very end of Act 2 of Millennium. And then she. Sorry, her 13, she's got the phone call selling the house and then her arriving to New York, and she's in the middle of the Bronx at like one in the morning getting off the bus because it's the last stop with a homeless woman who's, you know, mentally unwell and could be violent. You don't know. And like, this could go a number of ways. And if this were a Law and Order episode, it could go really bad. And the fact that Hannah can get what she needs to get out of it, like, that she's. She's unharmed and like, she speaks to this person with directness and. And, you know, is. And they're able to have a conversation. And she can get directions to the Mormons Visitor Center. You're like, oh, this woman's gonna do just fine in New York. The.
- [105:48]
B
The.
- [105:49]
A
The line that makes everyone crack up every single time and. And Meryl and Kathleen nail it so hard is, you know, she's trying to find out where to get to, how to get to Brooklyn. And, you know, Meryl has a little pain in her voice of like, my son was supposed to pick me up and he didn't show. And I don't wait more than three, three quarter hours for anybody. But anyway, then the homeless woman is having her. Her spouting whatever, you know, slurping the soup and all that stuff. And both she and Kathleen are like. She's like, stop it. Just stop it. She's like, I need to get to Brooklyn and you know how to get me there. So I am sorry that you're psychotic, but make an effort.
- [106:25]
B
This sounds so weird. I've always imagined that Hannah's husband, because we don't really hear a lot about the husband right in the play or the. Or his dad, just that he's dead.
- [106:34]
A
And he wasn't a very nice man.
- [106:36]
B
I've always imagined that the dad was gay himself as well and was. And for his way of covering it up, even though he was Mormon, was probably like a closet alcohol. I feel like. I feel like she was a leader. I feel like the reason Hannah does so well in New York is because this is nothing compared to an angry husband, a kid who's probably get. I don't. I think there's a lot of baggage with her. I think she's always been a leader. I think she's always been the, quote unquote, like, patriarch of a family because the actual Patriarch wasn't able to do it. So I think, like, when she goes to the Bronx and she's like, I need to know. I, I know she, she's had this conversation before.
- [107:18]
A
1,000%.
- [107:19]
B
Yeah.
- [107:20]
A
There's also the implication she might be gay herself. It's not overtly stated, but she's. When she's talking to Prior about homosexuality, she's like, it grosses me out. She's like, but in truth, just like, men gross me out. Like.
- [107:33]
B
Yes, I think this woman is a survivor. Like, if anybody in the show is a survivor, I think it's her. 1,000%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then who? The angel.
- [107:42]
A
Yes, the angel who's also the nurse, the homeless woman, the realtor, and the dummy in the diorama. How are we casting her?
- [107:54]
B
I. Oh, God, boy. That woman in the movie was Amy Wright, who played the, the, the woman.
- [108:00]
A
The diorama in the movie, I think so she's the one who's the therapist in everyone.
- [108:05]
B
He's an every woman. She's. You know who it would be if I had all the money in the world? Francis McDormand.
- [108:15]
A
Ooh, I like that.
- [108:17]
B
That's who I'm looking for. Frances McDormand.
- [108:20]
A
First of all, Francis would absolutely nail the nurse role. That's incredible. But, yeah, I find the angels a really tricky part.
- [108:31]
B
Say it again.
- [108:31]
A
I think I find that the angel is a very tricky role to play, like the angel, specifically because you have. There's a grandeur to the angel and a Shakespearean element to the angel, but also a sense of humor that you have to have as an actress to know when the ridiculousness is played for laughs and when it's played seriously and, and sort of what kind of person, what kind of personality is this angel and, and how ethereal are they and how messy are they? Right. And it's something that I actually felt that Emma Thompson kind of struggles with in the movie. Emma plays the self seriousness and, and, but can't totally incorporate the messiness of the angel in there as well.
- [109:18]
B
I, I, first of all, I think she's such a brilliant fucking actress.
- [109:21]
A
Oh, absolutely.
- [109:23]
B
She's the only one in that film where the cat. I'm like, something doesn't feel right about this casting.
- [109:29]
A
Yeah, it's a little, it's a little forced. Although I will say I think her having her homeless woman is great. She. I think that scene is amazing. And then I actually do enjoy her nurse. I think she has a solid take on that.
- [109:40]
B
Yeah, Yeah. I just, I don't know, there's something also the angel. To me, I don't know. This sounds gonna sound so weird. Should feel American. I don't know how to describe that. I don't. I don't know what that even means when I'm saying it.
- [109:53]
A
I mean, she is the angel of America.
- [109:55]
B
Maybe that's why. But, like, I don't know. There's something. There's something. Frances McDormand. Get me Frances McDormand. That's. That's who I keep thinking.
- [110:04]
A
I'm down for it. I'm down for it. You think she would do it?
- [110:08]
B
Yeah, come on. She'll come down and do it on an Equity showcase. You know who also, I think would probably make a really good Hannah Pitt? Kathy Bates.
- [110:19]
A
Why'd you have to say that now it's all I want.
- [110:22]
B
I was gonna say. What, you don't like her? Yeah. Kathy Bates.
- [110:26]
A
Who doesn't love Kathy Bates? My God.
- [110:29]
B
Well, yeah, I would love to see her do it. Yeah, I would love to see her do it.
- [110:34]
A
This is a great production of Angels that you're gonna cast me in as Lewis with Kathy basin and Frances McDormand.
- [110:39]
B
Absolutely. Absolutely. I can't wait to see you do it. And the whole show is being sponsored by Factor.
- [110:45]
A
The whole show's sponsored by Factor. We'll cast Bub as Joe Pitt. How does that sound?
- [110:49]
B
Oh, is it?
- [110:52]
A
He actually would be a good Joe. That's sort of the problem. Yeah, he's not all American enough, I would say.
- [110:59]
B
Yeah, I would love somebody a little bit more all American than him. You know, this is going to sound kind of crazy, but you know who actually also might make a really good Roy Cohn?
- [111:08]
A
Who?
- [111:09]
B
He's too. He's too old now. Joe Pesci.
- [111:13]
A
Oh, that's a fascinating choice.
- [111:16]
B
I think Joe Pesci would make a really good Roy Con.
- [111:20]
A
I'm trying to think of who is in the right era of their life right now.
- [111:26]
B
Oh, boy. Yeah. Oh, God. I'm trying to think who that is right now. They're like an actor, what, in their 50s or 60s?
- [111:34]
A
Yeah. I think any actor from 48 to, like, 64, depending on how well they, you know, what kind of shape they're in. You know, And I know that I said somebody for the Alex Weissman episode, I had pitched Steve Carell, and I kind of immediately took it back.
- [111:51]
B
No, I. You know, he was the first one that came to my mind. You know who else I would pitch might be kind of weird? Fred Armisen.
- [111:57]
A
Oh, interesting. Interesting. I think Alex or Ali might have said Bill Hader.
- [112:03]
B
Bill Hader. I would. Yes, I would. I would buy that. I would buy that.
- [112:07]
A
Yeah.
- [112:09]
B
Yeah, I would buy that.
- [112:11]
A
Solid options. And I know Steven Spinella did it out at Berkeley Rep a few years ago.
- [112:17]
B
Oh, he's great. Yeah, yeah.
- [112:19]
A
I'm sure that was a great, great.
- [112:22]
B
I'm trying. And I know F. Murray Abraham played it at one point. I bet you he was really good.
- [112:26]
A
Yeah, he replaced Ron Liebman on Broadway. I'm sure that was good. Cynthia Nixon replaced as Harper on Broadway and Cherry Jones replaced as the angel.
- [112:33]
B
Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Oh. For some reason I thought you said Cynthia Erivo. I was like, oh, that's interesting.
- [112:38]
A
Yeah, like she was Harper.
- [112:39]
B
That's interesting.
- [112:40]
A
So that was something that Alex had asked was, you know, is this a show where you can diversify the casting? And I would argue only really to an extent, because part of the. Of Belize's track is that he is the outlier in this community. And, you know, you can make a point of a theatrical storytelling by diversifying the cast. But I also think that some roles are just so boxed into. Into what they have to be in the narrative that you can't really break them all too much.
- [113:12]
B
The story is so intrinsically tied to, you know, race and religion. Yeah, I. That. I really don't know. Yeah, that I don't. I don't know. The angel. You could, I think, without. Without any problems.
- [113:26]
A
Yeah.
- [113:28]
B
Please. No. Yeah, yeah. You always want. Yeah, okay.
- [113:32]
A
Sorry. I think the part is why I think you don't want. What Part of reason why I think you want a white actress as the angel is because ultimately that the message. We didn't really talk about it much in any of the past episodes, but that when the angel does arrive and then we got to wrap things up because Rob's got to go. But when the angel arrives and gives Prior the prophecy, the prophecy is to tell the human race to stop moving, to stop progressing.
- [113:57]
B
Yes.
- [113:58]
A
Ultimately saying that every time mankind takes a step forward, heaven has, you know, a shakeup. It has a heavenquake, as they call them. And, you know, ultimately says God will not return until you just stop. So you have to stop evolving, stop moving, just stay still. And I think that holds more weight from a white angel.
- [114:21]
B
Yeah, I agree with you.
- [114:22]
A
The complications of that statement and the restrictions in the ropes of that statement are. Are more upsetting from a white angel when it becomes a bipoc angel. I think there might be a little more leniency from an audience to understand what they're getting at, which goes into what we were saying of, you know, you want to complicate things. You don't want to make it so cut and dry. It's a little more imperious and a little more of a suppressing statement, which is what it's sort of meant to be when it's from an angel of the white America, you know, especially when you then have Belize giving footnotes to this statement. Because the whole point is that scene's happening as Prior is telling it to Belize and Belize hears it, and he's like, I have 9,000 issues with that statement. And it's. And it's meant to. It's meant to have that kind of fallout.
- [115:13]
B
My last question for you, and then. And then we'll go. Has. Has. Oh, has Sarah Paulson ever played Harper?
- [115:21]
A
I'm sure in school. Never.
- [115:23]
B
Not.
- [115:24]
A
Not professionally, as far as I know.
- [115:26]
B
Just curious. Just curious.
- [115:27]
A
She's about 10 years away from the Hannah Pitt track.
- [115:30]
B
Oh, God, she's so good. Okay.
- [115:32]
A
Yeah, sorry. No, she. She would be lovely. I would love to see her as Hannah Pitt at some point. There are so many people that I would love to see do it. We should have, like. We should have a studio in New York where it's a rotating, like, every four days, a new group of actors come in. Everybody gets paid, like 50 bucks to just, like, read the show out in front of an audience of 40 for three performances straight. And then it's a whole bunch of new people.
- [115:56]
B
I. I would be the first in line for that. So, yeah, I'll work on my Roy Cohn voice again. Well, we'll see if I can get back to it. It.
- [116:03]
A
It's all. It's all in love. Comedy about love or all in comedy about love, but with Angels in America and guess what?
- [116:09]
B
$400. And they're off there. They're reading on their scripts and they're still sitting in armchairs. Have fun, everybody.
- [116:14]
A
Have fun, everybody. I was. I feel like we're gonna. I was gonna say something about Lewis and Joe. I'm. I'm sure I've said it already in past episodes and it doesn't really matter, but if I hinted at something in this episode, guys, that I'm not getting to right now, please mention it in the Discord Channel and I will respond to that. If you haven't joined the Discord Channel, please do so. It's a fun time. There's a lot of advice on tickets, people asking about discount codes and ways to, you know, buy tickets for not $5,000. And. And, you know, everyone in the Discord Channel is offering advice of what shows to see, how to schedule stuff. There's also a lot of gossip, a lot of theater board gossip in the Discord Channel, a lot of news sharing, and then also people just sort of sharing their opinions on episodes of the podcast and submitting questions and topics they want us to cover when we're recording these episodes. So please join. Rob, this has been a delight.
- [117:02]
B
Oh, my. Listen, hey, thank you so, so much for having me on. It's so. It's always such a joy to talk to you. I have to go now because I have to go see why Will Rogers Follies at the bottom of your score list, honestly, because that's where it belongs. So I gotta go. He's gotta go.
- [117:15]
A
Rob, Rob, two things. Where can people find you if you want them to find you?
- [117:19]
B
Oh, my Instagram, Please reach out to me. I love talking to people. Is @Robwschneider. And then you can also go visit my website, www.Robwschneider.com. and I hope you come see the shows that I'm doing at J2spotlight this year. That's J2spotlightnyc.com and those shows are Smile, Zorba and Drat the Cat.
- [117:40]
A
Yes. Remind me. I have to text you about that later. Sometime this week.
- [117:43]
B
Oh, fantastic.
- [117:44]
A
And also, Rob, as you know, we close out every episode with a Broadway diva. Who do you want to close us out with? 2D?
- [117:51]
B
Oh, Dorothy Loudon.
- [117:53]
A
Fantastic. Done.
- [117:55]
B
Did she have to be alive?
- [117:56]
A
No, she doesn't have to be alive. I love it. Dorothy Loudon would have been a great Hannah Pitt back in the day.
- [118:01]
B
You know what? You know why I'm thinking of her? I'm working on season two of Broadway Bound right now, and three of the shows that I'm doing, she's in and I'm like, oh, God, poor Dorothy.
- [118:10]
A
I'm assuming one is Lolita, my love.
- [118:13]
B
Yes, yes. Lolita, my love. Can you guess the other two?
- [118:16]
A
I can't.
- [118:17]
B
Yeah, you can.
- [118:19]
A
No, because I know Flop. She was in that. Made it to Broadway like Figlies Are Falling. And.
- [118:23]
B
Yeah, I'll give you the obvious one. It's a sequel.
- [118:27]
A
Oh, Annie, too. Ms. Hannigan's revenge.
- [118:28]
B
And then the other one is A Candor and Ebb.
- [118:33]
A
Skin of Our Teeth.
- [118:34]
B
Yeah, very good. Fuck, yeah. She was in all three. Yeah.
- [118:38]
A
God. God bless. I love that. Okay, well, yeah, you guys have all that information at your fingertips. If you want to follow me on Instagram only. Matt Koplik, usual spelling. And I will see you guys for the next miniseries, which I will do an announcement for shortly be after this episode. Fun fact that it's connected to the theme of this series. Grab bag shows that you guys submitted and I picked out of a bowl. Thank you so much, Rob. Thank you so much guys for making it to the end of not only the series, but the angel series. And that's it. Take it away, Dorothy.
- [119:06]
B
Bye.
- [119:12]
A
50% of him, any person of him than all of anybody else.
- [119:30]
B
At all.