BACKSTAGE PASS: Creating Marcel on the Train w/ Ethan Slater & Marshall Pailet

Summary

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Broadway Breakdown – Backstage Pass: Creating Marcel on the Train

Host: Matt Koplik
Guests: Ethan Slater & Marshall Pailet
Date: March 13, 2026

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Overview

This episode of Broadway Breakdown offers an inside look at the creation of Marcel on the Train, a new play running at Classic Stage Company. Host Matt Koplik welcomes playwrights and collaborators Ethan Slater and Marshall Pailet—Ethan also stars as Marcel Marceau; Marshall directs. The play tells the true, little-known story of Marcel Marceau’s resistance work during WWII, guiding Jewish children to safety before he became the world’s most famous mime. The conversation delves into the project’s genesis, backstory, process, collaborating as co-authors, and the evolving life of a new theatrical work.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Never-Ending Process of Making Theater

• The team has entered the “maintenance” phase post-opening, but both resist the illusion that the work is ever done.
• Ethan Slater (02:42):

  “The writing never ends. You just have to freeze it at one point.”

• Marshall discusses his dual role as writer/director: Now that the show is open, his duties shift from relentless rewriting to maintaining the production and envisioning future improvements.
• Both authors stress the continual nature of improvement, with Matt noting:

  “Somebody said…plays are never finished. They just open.” (04:03)

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2. Collaboration Genesis: From Cosi Sandwiches to Co-Writing

• Ethan and Marshall’s working relationship took root in Washington D.C.—first as an aspiring actor seeking advice (Ethan), then rediscovered years later through mutual theater projects.
• Marshall recalls (07:10):

  “He was just out of high school…We had a friend in common…he was like, 'Can I pick your brain about how it is to be in show business?'”

• The partnership reinvigorated during the pandemic: daily Zoom script-swaps led to their first genuine collaboration, resulting in new projects and even deeper professional and personal connection.
• Ethan (11:02):

  “We will argue, you know, so hard that we switch positions…That’s when you find the middle ground…a special kind of collaboration that is rare.”

• Memorable Line – Marshall (12:29):

  “We’re not afraid to come in hot, and we’re also not afraid to admit that we’re wrong.”

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3. Writing Process: Structure, Feedback, and Fluidity

• Both writers enjoy solo and collaborative work, with different strengths: Ethan loves research, Marshall relishes rewriting.
• Collaborative writing is a mix of outlining together, improvising scenes aloud, tag-teaming on first drafts, and then swapping sections—blurring any sense of individual authorship.
• Marshall (17:13):

  “We just…do the scene over and over…it just kind of happens. Eventually one of us goes, 'Okay, shut up, shut up' and then types it out.”

• The end result is so seamless that neither can pinpoint who wrote most lines. Only rare exceptions are noted:
  • Ethan (18:26):

    "The next station stop is Ontology is absolutely Marshall…But these words mean everything at all. Is me."

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4. The Inspiration and Origin of 'Marcel on the Train'

• The idea originated when Ethan, a silent film buff, stumbled onto Marceau’s WWII heroics and was shocked not to have learned Marceau was Jewish. He called Marshall to pitch the story.
• Ethan (21:07):

  “How do I not know that Marcel Marceau is Jewish? I went to Jewish day school, I went to Jewish summer camp…”

• Early brainstorming focused on tone (not a typical Holocaust story, but a heightened thriller with threads of whimsy and pathos)—eventually deciding it had to be theater, honoring Marceau’s life as a performer.

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5. Development Timeline

• First draft took about six months (~Spring 2022); early readings were done over Zoom, with further in-person readings and a Williamstown Theatre Festival workshop along the way, culminating in the current off-Broadway run.
• Marshall (24:49):

  “It probably took us about six months to finish a draft…It's crazy—I cannot access the process from getting from that initial idea to the first draft.”

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6. Shaping Artistic Voice and Maturity

• Discussion reveals contrasting early creative motivations:
  • Marshall: Wrote for fun and possible success as a younger artist. Later realized the importance of having something meaningful to say, often drawn from life experience.

    “In order to be a good writer, you had to have something to say...I just didn’t—I hadn’t lived enough life to have an opinion on anything other than I want success and I want to be happy.” (29:44)

  • Ethan: Always had a thematic through-line based on personal experience, but learned to master structure by studying screenwriting/story craft.

    “I always had something that I wanted to say. I just didn’t quite know how to say it.” (32:21)

• Their differing approaches led to a fruitful partnership: Marshall brings lived insight and structural confidence; Ethan brings personal stakes and theoretical rigor.

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7. Feedback, Criticism, and Audience Response

• Both value feedback—especially aggregate patterns, rather than isolated opinions.
• Marshall (36:48):

  “Feedback is super valuable in aggregate...If 20 out of 30 people are discussing a similar thing that they had an issue with, then I’m like, okay, there might be an issue there.”

• Both note the distinction between diagnosing a problem and prescribing a solution—a crucial nuance in taking notes.
• Ethan (40:46):

  “Diagnosing and prognosing are really different when it comes to art...If 10 people say...they were confused by this thing, then that spot is not serving your story.”

• They also discuss non-verbal feedback (audience body language) and personal anecdotes—such as Ethan describing a full row leaning forward during a tense scene (43:20).

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8. The Actor-Writer Challenge

• Ethan on performing his own work (44:01):

  “You can feel the audience. You can feel when you lose them, you can feel when you have them…It’s harder to diagnose whether that is a script thing or an audience thing or a performance thing, because I just have to switch my brain into performance brain.”

• Matt and Marshall note the challenges (and dangers) of over-interpreting small audience reactions in a small theater space.

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9. Navigating Comedy Within Darkness

• A core artistic challenge: balancing humor with the weight of the material.
• Ethan (48:24):

  “The whole thesis of the play is a person trying to bring light and comedy into…the fucking Holocaust...And that’s also the central dramatic tension between him and the character who is most often his foil.”

• Post-preview conversations (especially with non-theater friends) helped the writers see that the point is not big laughs, but the existential use of humor as a coping mechanism and resistance tool.

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10. Future of the Show & What’s Next

• Next months: Ethan and Marshall both have solo writing projects; Marshall also preparing to direct other plays and musicals. They await next steps for Marcel on the Train, recognizing the unpredictability of show business.
• Marshall (55:30):

  “Show business is like...Some things take three years to prepare for, and sometimes someone’s like, ‘Hey, that thing you weren’t expecting, it starts tomorrow.’ And that’s your life now.”

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Notable Quotes

• Ethan Slater (02:42): "The writing never ends. You just have to freeze it at one point."
• Marshall Pailet (29:44): "In order to be a good writer, you had to have something to say...I just didn’t—I hadn’t lived enough life to have an opinion on anything other than I want success and I want to be happy."
• Ethan Slater (40:46): "Diagnosing and prognosing are really different when it comes to art..."
• Marshall Pailet (17:13): "We just…do the scene over and over…it just kind of happens. Eventually one of us goes, 'Okay, shut up, shut up' and then types it out."
• Matt Koplik (04:03): "Somebody said…plays are never finished. They just open."
• Ethan Slater (48:24): "The whole thesis of the play is a person trying to bring light and comedy into…the fucking Holocaust."
• On their unique connection:
  Marshall (36:16): "It's one of the most important relationships in my life, Ethan, and he's a good guy."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:24] – Entering the “maintenance” phase post-opening; division of labor as writer & director/star
• [06:35] – How Ethan and Marshall met in D.C. and their early creative intersect
• [11:02] – The chemistry and dynamic of their collaboration, including creative disagreements
• [14:14] – Their solo and collaborative writing processes: From research to real-time co-writing
• [19:57] – The origin story: How Ethan discovered Marcel Marceau’s untold history and called Marshall
• [24:32] – Timeline from inception to first readings and production
• [29:44] – How each writer's approach to craft and voice has matured
• [36:48] – Philosophy of accepting and processing feedback and criticism
• [43:31] – Detecting audience feedback: stories from inside the theater
• [44:01] – Challenges of performing in one’s own play (actor-writer’s mindset conflict)
• [48:24] – On working with comedy in the context of darkness and resistance
• [52:32] – Next steps: personal projects, waiting for updates on Marcel; unpredictability of the theater world
• [57:49] – Diva of choice for the show’s outro: Lesley Kritzer (from Spamalot)

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Closing Exchange & Tone

The episode closes with the hosts and guests bantering about Broadway divas (with unanimous praise for Leslie Kritzer) and expressing appreciation for the conversation and each other’s insight. The tone is insightful but informal, weaving frank artistic advice with warmth and humor—true to Matt’s lively, opinionated, and affectionate style.

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For those interested in the development of new plays, artist collaboration, and the realities of theater-making, this episode is an energetic, honest, and often funny peek behind the curtain at two artists and the process of bringing a highly personal, historically resonant work to life.

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Transcript

[Ethan Slater]

Foreign.

[Matt]

Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown and our latest episode of Backstage Pass, giving you an insider's look at the goings on of our festival fabulous, infuriating industry today. We are back on that choo choo with Marcel on the Train at Classic Stage Company. Written by Ethan Slater and Marshall Palett, the play tells the true story of Marcel Marceau before he became the world's most famous mime when he was just a young man in Nazi occupied France, helping guide Jewish children to safety during World War II. With this episode, we are talking to the creators themselves, Mr. Ethan Slater and Mr. Marshall Palette. Ethan is also the star of Marcel on the Train, playing the titular role. Yes, he does play the train. I'm kidding. He plays Marcel Marceau. And Marshall also does double duty as the production's director. Marshall Palette has worked as an actor and primarily works now as a director and writer. His musical Private Jones performed at the Goodspeed as well as Signature Theater in Virginia where it won the Helen Hayes Award for Best new musical. Very impressive. Other noteworthy shows he's done are who's yous Baghdaddy? As well as Triassic Park. Both were New York Times critics picks. Not too shabby. He's written for film and TV and will be directing the new musical the Snow Goose at Goodspeed later this year. Ethan Slater made his Broadway debut as the titular role in the SpongeBob SquarePants musical. He has a tendency to play titular roles. He earned a Theater World Award and Drama Desk Award as well as a Tony nomination for his performance. He's appeared in film and tv, most recently in the Wicked films, was last seen at Classic Stage as the balladeer and Lee Harvey Oswald in Assassins, and was last seen on Broadway in Spamalot. I could go on and on. But y' all want to get right to it. So why don't I just grab our passes from Beatric and head backstage to chat with Ithan and Marshall? Now, Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean?

[Ethan Slater]

You're the top.

[Marshall Palette]

Yeah, you're an arrow collar.

[Ethan Slater]

You're the top.

[Marshall Palette]

You're a coolage dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Est.

[Matt]

Marshall. Ethan. Hi. Nice to see you guys.

[Ethan Slater]

Hi. Hey, Matt.

[Matt]

So you guys have now moved past the rehearsal process. The opening night for Marcel on the Train. We're now just sor, I guess you could say, in the groove of the run. But considering that you guys are the co authors on this. And Marshall, you've Directed it. And, Ethan, you're the star. There is really no day off for either of you, right?

[Ethan Slater]

Um, not really. It's funny. Like, you know, now that we're open, it's a little bit. We kind of. A little. Can take a bit of a day off. We're not implementing changes. That said, like, we. We're having a conversation this morning about, you know, places that we think we can improve the show because the writing never ends. You just have to freeze it at one point, you know, so, you know, I think we're still looking forward to how to improve it and how to keep moving it forward and improving.

[Marshall Palette]

You know, Ethan's job and mine are different. That, like, Ethan has to come and perform the show eight times a week for an audience. He has to drop in and, like, and be the character. I don't. So, like, the show is contractually frozen. I'm not allowed to change it if I wanted to. So there become two jobs for me now. One is maintenance, which is just making sure that as the actors evolve and the show evolves, that we keep it going in the same intended direction and then looking to the future, like, when we, you know, when we do this next, you know, what do we want to change? What do we want to clarify? How can we make it an even better version of itself? And so my job has become a lot less hardcore now that the show is open, and Ethan's is just as hardcore, and that's just the lovely inequity of our positions.

[Matt]

Yeah, I get that vibe from the two of you. I mean, I forget who was that said it. Somebody said. And I don't think they came up with this, but plays are never finished. They just open.

[Ethan Slater]

I don't remember what the. What the actual number is, but I'm going to throw out a fake number, which is like, 11 drafts of Amadeus that were all published and performed, you know, at the highest level, because, you know, you can always clarify. And it's actually, you know, we're doing. Right now we're running a developmental run. I like to call it a developmental run at a nonprofit, a classic stage company. And, like, it's been amazing how. How well it's been received, and that's been, like, a really beautiful thing. But it's just that that has always been the point of this run is to see, like, do audiences see what we're going for? We're taking some bigger artistic, like, sort of swings. And the good news is they connected. And the better news is we now see how we can clarify them and, you know, make them even clearer in a way. And so that's what we've been talking about this morning, which is. Which I think is a really exciting place to be, which is cool.

[Marshall Palette]

Yeah. I think that when you're doing a show like this one, which has, you know, as Ethan was alluding to, there's like formal and structural, like, cool thing. Like, you know, it's not just a straight linear narrative of like, once upon a time there was a person who wanted something, there was an obstacle, and they go on the journey to get it, and then they have setbacks and wins and losses, and then at the end of the day, they win or they lose, but either way they learn a lesson. That's your straight Aristotelian narrative. And we do have that. But there's other big structural, formal swings within it that are really important to us and we're really proud of it. We really like it. And I think that as we continue to move forward, the question for us is how can we just really clarify for the audience to make the tapestry that's inside our heads match the one that's out outside of our heads in the best way possible, in the clearest way possible that a first time viewer can get into it. But look like we're talking next steps right now. But like, it's, it's. That's just that headspace we're in. But like, we have a, we have a, you know, we have. I don't know when this is going to be published, this podcast, but like, we have a show that's off Broadway that's sold out. You can't buy a ticket to it. We didn't expect that. That wasn't the thing that we thought it was going to be. And it's. We also try to like, take it, step back and be like, hey, that's really cool that we made a thing that people can't buy a ticket to. Like, that's not what we thought it was going to be. Our artsy little show about Marcel Marceau. So it's a cool moment.

[Matt]

Absolutely. Yeah. Live in this moment. Take us back for a second. How is it that you two came to be collaborators? How do you guys cross paths?

[Ethan Slater]

Marshall, you want to take this one?

[Marshall Palette]

I do want to take this one. So I'm going to. Do you want to go all the way back to the beginning?

[Ethan Slater]

So.

[Marshall Palette]

So we met. We're both from. Ethan's from dc. Dc I'm from the suburbs of DC and we are not of the same high school generation. But when I was just out of college, Ethan was a senior in high school, I think. Is that math correct, Ethan?

[Ethan Slater]

I had just graduated high school.

[Marshall Palette]

Okay. I was just out of college, he was just out of high school. And we met in dc. I was doing a show at the dc. We were both doing shows at the DC Fringe Festival. I had written and directed one. Co. Written and directed one. Ethan was acting in one. We won't go into the show that he was in because it's just

[Ethan Slater]

your

[Marshall Palette]

audience couldn't handle the scandal of what I witnessed 18 year old Ethan Slater do in the DC franchise. I will leave it up to your imagination.

[Ethan Slater]

It was a joy.

[Marshall Palette]

It was a joy. But anyway, we had a friend in common and he was like, hey, I just graduated high school, I'm about to go to college, I want to be an actor someday, I think. And I really like what you did. Can I take you out for lunch like a, like a sandwich? And can I pick your brain about what it is to be. How. How it is to be in show business? And I'm like, sure. And we had a. From what I can remember, and I really don't remember it, like, I'm sure a very lovely sandwich and coffee at. At Co. Or. Or something.

[Ethan Slater]

Or, or.

[Marshall Palette]

Or pret. Something like that.

[Ethan Slater]

It was Cosi. It was a Dupont Circle, but go on.

[Marshall Palette]

Okay, sure. Flash forward, let's call it four years. I'm doing a reading of another show and my collaborator in that is like, hey, you know, I'm working on the SpongeBob SquarePants musical. I know it sounds crazy, but trust me, it's really good. And there's this kid who's playing spongebob and I think he'd be really great in our reading. Like, can we cast him? And I was like, yeah, sure, I trust you. That sounds great. So Ethan walks in and he's like, hey, you probably don't remember me, but I bought you a sandwich at Cosey for. I'm like, you're fucking SpongeBob SquarePants, the kid from D.C. who bought me a sandwich at Cosi. That to this day don't understand how that happened. How at the age of 21 or 22, he was Broadway SpongeBob SquarePants. But anyway, that's how we reconnected. And then we kind of. We collaborated in various ways on various things for let's call it five, six, seven years and became friends, became family friends, you know, like good friends. Not like the most inner circle friends, but you know, your friends who are like, would grab Dinner once every four months. Very good friends, kind of friends. And then during the pandemic, we were both, you know, locked in our, you know, houses, as one is. And I think that it started with me sharing a script with Ethan. Is that how it started, Ethan?

[Ethan Slater]

Maybe. But we definitely did a script swamp.

[Marshall Palette]

We did script swap, and. And he had. And he had written a script with a collaborator. And I was like, hey, you know, like, I bet if you and I wrote something together, like, I have this idea, like, what if we tried this thing and we wrote. We wrote a script together and we. It was good. We almost. We almost sold it. Like, it was really, really cool. And then we just started, like, writing together. And not only writing together, but, like, we became like, for that whole pandemic, as awful as it was, you know, we had each other in the zoom screen for 12 hours a day, 13 hours a day, 7 hours a day, every single day. Neither of us had kids at that point. And so, like, we couldn't go outside. There wasn't much to do other than, like, you know, rewatch Game of Thrones and be on Zoom and write. And it was a really productive couple of years for us. And we became not just like inner circle friends, but, like, inseparable friends. And. And that was. Yeah, that was 2020, March of 2020. And we've been pretty inseparable ever since.

[Matt]

Ethan, do you want to counter any of that?

[Ethan Slater]

God, it's just not how I remember it at all.

[Marshall Palette]

Fuck it.

[Ethan Slater]

Exactly, right? Like, we started. Yeah, we started working as actor and director. He always knew that I wrote. And actually there was a. There was a time earlier, that script that you're talking about with another collaborator, I think I had shared with you a couple of years prior to. And so, like, we've been familiar of each other's work outside of our work together a little bit, but it was during COVID that we, like, I think we actually did a couple of script swaps. We were just, like, reading each other, giving each other's notes. And like, I think what. What I really remember about the early part of that with Marshall was just. He was so open to my notes. He was so, like, you know, whatever, and he was so generous with his. And we were doing such. Just like, as friends, we were pushing each other in a way that felt respectful and collaborative without working together already. And I think so then the impulse to write something together felt really natural and easy. And I think it's something that I've really loved about collaborating with Marshall. And it's why we keep on doing new things and we stay in each other's lives is because we will argue, you know, so hard that we switch. We switch positions, you know, and we realize, like, oh, wow, now we. Now I believe what Marshall started with, and he believes that I started with. And that's. That's when you find the middle ground, right? Like, that's when you, like, find what we're actually talking about. And I think it's just a really. It's a special kind of collaboration that is rare.

[Marshall Palette]

We're not afraid to come in hot, and. And we're also not afraid to admit that we're wrong. Right? Like. Like, there will be conversations where I'm like, ethan, we should cut this scene. And then he's like, here are the reasons that we should not cut this scene. And then I'm like, you're right. And that's the conversation, you know, and then sometimes, too, like, I'll be like, we should cut this scene. And he's like, here are the reasons that we should not cut this scene. And I'll be like, cool. The reasons are awesome. And that is not clear in the text. So we have to make the scene better to match the reasons. And then we're both like, you're right. And then we get to work on it.

[Ethan Slater]

And this previews process was a great example of that. We had a couple of moments where. And they might not be the final version of it, because previews. We only had two weeks of previews. We only had two weeks of rehearsal, two weeks of pre. It's, like, rushed for a development kind of thing, but we had that experience a lot. We were like, okay, it's clearly not working on stage. You know, Marshall's like, let's. Let's blue sky it. Let's come up with something totally new. I'm like, the kernel of this is really good. And you're like, well, it's not, so let's figure it out. And we, you know, come up with something that is great and is in the show now. And, like, you know, so there's. It's been pretty. It's been a pretty special thing. I wish this kind of collaboration on. On anyone in any field.

[Marshall Palette]

We do take turns being on offense and defense, you know, which is helpful.

[Matt]

Well, I was going to ask you guys, as writers, separately and then together, sort of what the writing process is on both cases. So, like, for the scripts that you had sent each other or, you know, Yankee swapped, what was the writing process on those scripts like, for you solo and now that you're working together, what has the writing process been? Because we're hearing about sort of the feedback process, which is great. I'm a very big fan of feedback and constructive feedback and all that stuff. But as you're, as you've been writing, Marcel, what has that writing process sort of been like?

[Ethan Slater]

Well, I think Marshall and I both love writing. Like, we both love it. Do you, do you agree?

[Marshall Palette]

For sure.

[Ethan Slater]

So I think when we both also have projects that we do on our own and, and write feedback, we share scripts, we, like, give each other notes and all that stuff. And, but, but we both have, have solo projects, and I think both of us love holding up. I love doing research. That's, like, a phase that I really enjoy. Marshall is really good at, like, writing and rewriting and, like, cracking a scene in a way that, like, sometimes I need to get to the end and go back. So we have different styles when we're on our own. The process of writing together, look, it's different every day. And when we, when we were on Zoom every day, sometimes it would be like, hey, we've got this. We beat out the story, we beat out the script. We have a really sort of detailed outline of what needs to happen in each moment. That takes us a huge chunk of time. And then once we get into actually writing dialogue, writing action writing sequences, we will often say, hey, I'm gonna take the first crack while you take a crack of scene two. I'll be on scene one. And then we switch. Or we will, like, talk it out and we'll write it together. I think it really kind of depends on how we're feeling in the moment. Would you agree with that, Marsh?

[Marshall Palette]

For sure. Like, I think that, you know, I, I, I've written a lot collaboratively. I've also written a lot solo, and lately more solo than, with the exception of my stuff with Ethan, like, more solo than collaboratively. And, like, when you're writing solo a lot, sometimes you're just like, okay, everyone shut up. I gotta, I gotta get it down. Like, I got, I gotta type it out. And sometimes I find that my fingers work faster than my mouth does because I'm so used to that. And the nice thing about this is, oftentimes a scene in this show. Well, look, the writing process in macro, right, is you start with an idea that's a big idea, and then you have the reason that you want to do it and the thing you want to say, and you have these structural ideas, and then you design characters who are going to be the perfect vehicles and foils for these ideas, to make the ideas as difficult as they can be to surface. And then you break down the structure, and then you start working on the scenes. And then oftentimes you do a draft. And once you're finished with the draft, then it's like, wait, what was the. You get so invested in the characters and the story and the details that sometimes you forget the point of the whole thing. And you go back and you're like, okay, what was the impulse of the idea? Oh, right, okay, cool. So that means that these things are working and this isn't. You just kind of keep breaking it and putting it together and breaking it and putting it together. I would say that, like, from a dialogue perspective with this one, it's a lot of. It's a lot of improv. It's a lot of just, like. We're just, like, talking, talking, talking about the scene, talking what it is. And then suddenly, like, Ethan and I will be like, ah, well, Vietnam is singing today.

[Ethan Slater]

Vietnam.

[Matt]

Viet.

[Marshall Palette]

Vietnam is really. Yeah. No, hey, Vietnam. And then the other person comes in with the next line. Then we just kind of, like, do the scene over and over and over again. We don't even say that's what we're gonna do. It just kind of happens. And eventually one of us goes, okay, shut up, shut up, shut up. And then types it out and then adds, you know, flair and detail. And so that's how, like, rewrites happen during the preview process, but before. Yeah. I mean, often it's like there's someone who has a stronger impulse about a moment. It's like, okay, just go away. I'm gonna. Give me an hour. I'm gonna. I'll come back to you in an hour. And then sometimes that's, like, the finished scene, and sometimes it, like, sucks and it isn't. And sometimes it's somewhere in between. We beat it out, pass it back and forth. Like, it's. It's pretty fluid. But I will say, like, when all is said and done, I. I genuinely do not know. Like, I do not know who wrote what. Like, if you ask me, like, who wrote, like, there's maybe a couple lines where I'm like, oh, that's such an Ethan. And there's a couple of things I'm like, that's such a Marshall. But for the most part, I really, truly in my heart could not tell you who wrote what.

[Matt]

Ethan, do you remember everything that you wrote? No. No, I feel the same way.

[Ethan Slater]

There's. There's a Funny. There's one section in particular that I, that always makes me laugh because it has a Marshall joke and then an Ethan joke back to back.

[Marshall Palette]

Wait, what is that section?

[Ethan Slater]

It's. Henri Dreyfus is not merely author and. Yeah. Philosopher and bestselling author of works such as the Next Station Stop is Ontology. He is also the very, you know, the very symbol of profound self examination. To wake, to eat, to breathe is to dry this to live. Anyway, so the next station stop is Ontology is absolutely Marshall. He speaks with such Escheresque circular aphorisms that we begin to wonder, do these words mean anything at all? But these words mean everything at all. Is. Is me.

[Matt]

So there we go.

[Ethan Slater]

But. But that's the only one. Every time I hear it, I remember like us throwing a bunch of jokes at it and which ones stayed. And the next station stop is Ontology is my. Is one of my favorite jokes in the show.

[Marshall Palette]

And see, that's funny because like I don't remember that conversation. And if he had said the other person wrote the other line, I'd be like, that must be true.

[Ethan Slater]

Oh, I would totally. I, I totally. I just, I, Well, I never would have written the Next Station Stop is Ontology is the thing. I mean, I, I agree with you, but mostly throughout, it's pretty fun. And that's been a fun part about. We have an amazing cast. Like, they're so cool. They're brilliant actors. They're so cool. And we're like. And it is funny, every so often they jokingly will say like, well, that must have been an Ethan line or a Marshall line. And we never know, except for that section, which I happen to know.

[Matt]

So where did the idea of Fort Marcel on the train come from? Do we remember who had the idea where it came from?

[Marshall Palette]

Yes, that, that we remember. Go for it, Ethan.

[Ethan Slater]

Yeah, it's a very clear story. I was, I'm obsessed with silent film and so I was researching Charlie Chaplin. I'm really obsessed with Buster Keaton. I know everything about Buster Keaton, but I wanted to learn a little more about Charlie Chaplin. And so I, I found this. You know that there's this period of time where he's being accused of being a Bolshevik and a Jew, you know, and so I googled Charlie Chaplin Jewish, and I found this story, this like little known story of a young Jewish boy in France who was obsessed with Charlie Chaplin. He was brought to a movie by his mother in the 30s and he joined the French Resistance, smuggling Jewish orphans out of this, you know, orphanage in southern France, bring them to the Swiss border. He did three of those trips. And then after the war, he went to drama school, and he grew up to become Marcel Marceau, the world's most famous mime. And I was like, holy shit. I don't know that he's Jewish. How do I not know that Marcel Marceau is Jewish? I went to Jewish day school. I went to Jewish summer camp. I like every Jew that has made an impact on culture. I somehow have a book about, you know.

[Matt]

Well, they tell you every day at Hebrew school. They're like, here's everyone who's Jewish who's done amazing things.

[Ethan Slater]

I'm like, they're like, do you know who Hank Greenberg is? And you're like, no. They're like, well, you should, because he's Jewish, you know? And so anyway, so I was like, my mind was blown. And so I called Marshall and I said, marshall, how.

[Marshall Palette]

How is the hospital?

[Ethan Slater]

How is Kelly? How's the new baby? Are you guys doing well? Do you need anything? Did you send me, by the way? Is your registry open? Can I send you stuff from the registry? I'm like, you know, I'm superstitious. I didn't want to get it beforehand. Also, I have an idea for a play, and I think we should talk about it later. Now's not a good time, but remind me later, I have a good idea for a play. And Marshall was like, I'm never gonna remember. I'm. His first son had just been born. It was the worst time to call with an idea. But I was respectful of that. I believe what Marshall said was, I'm not gonna remember what we talk about anyway, so you might as well tell me. So that's, that's when I pitched it. But I, I, I will say that the thing about. I'm not letting you get an edge, a word in edgewise. You see, I'm.

[Matt]

Keep rolling.

[Ethan Slater]

I'm steamrolling.

[Marshall Palette]

I love it. I'm here for it.

[Ethan Slater]

One of the things that I loved about that, that sort of origin story of that thing, is it reminds me that the kernel of an idea. I remember. So I was on a ferry. For some reason, I was on a boat. It was the summer of 2021, right?

[Marshall Palette]

Yes.

[Ethan Slater]

So it was June of 2021, and I was on a boat, like a ferry crossing the sound. And I remember sitting on the edge of the boat, looking out at the water and talking to Marshall about this idea of a thriller on a train car with, like, a mime trying to keep these kids Quiet, like, obviously there's like, life is beautiful references. There's little things. And then I remember, like, we immediately were having the conversation of, like, well, how do we do this story? That it's not just a Holocaust story. It's not just like, you know, whatever, but it's like, there's something, like, really specific about this moment, this thriller thing. Not that it's not an origin story. It's not a this, it's not a that. Like, we were just, like, paring it down.

[Marshall Palette]

Maybe it's a movie.

[Ethan Slater]

Maybe it's like a thriller, kind of a horror y movie where, like, the shadows are really big and scary and it's like we were trying to be delightful and yet. And as the conversation evolves, then over weeks and months, it became clear to us that it needed to be a piece of theater. Because Marcel Marceau performed on a stage most famously, and he was, you know, a bringer of delight to the stage, but he was also somebody who, like, brought a lot of humanity and pathos and poetry to his whimsy. And so we were like, okay, so we have to, like, capture all of these things, but each time we tell the story of how we came up with the idea, I'm brought back to that boat ride where I'm like, trying to hear Marshall over the waves, and Marshall is, like, in a hospital with his newborn baby and we are like, completely blue sky. No idea where this is gonna go. And what is the kernel of idea? The kernel of the idea? It's this, like, trying to find delight on the most terrifying train ride you can. Yeah. So that was. That was where it started.

[Marshall Palette]

That's right.

[Matt]

And so then the process of writing begins somewhere in 2021. Yes.

[Ethan Slater]

Yeah.

[Marshall Palette]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And how long from the beginning of white, a blank page or canvas to the first time reading it? Thank you, Ethan. To reading it with other people. What's the timeline of that?

[Marshall Palette]

So our first reading, Ethan was already filming Wicked. So that would have been in 2023. 23. Is that can't be true.

[Ethan Slater]

I don't think that was the first. I don't think that was the first read through.

[Marshall Palette]

No, I don't think so. I think it would have been in, like, spring of 22 that we. We probably finished. I think it probably took us about six months to finish a draft. And then we did, like, a table read with friends on Zoom, and then we did another 1 in 23. And then we did a reading in person in a studio at the end of 23, after Ethan was back from Wicked. And then we did Williamstown the next summer, and now we're here. So I think that that's about the timeline, but it's crazy. I cannot. I mean, look, it was Covid, right? And it was also, like, learning how to be a parent. And I cannot access the process from getting from that initial idea to the first draft. Like, I know what the ideas are. I remember, like, sitting down to write certain monologues, but it's all. I was thinking about this with my kids the other day. Not to talk about parenting, but, you know, you got kids, Matt?

[Matt]

No. I am a very single gay man, Marshall. So I have to get very rich. I've got to get very rich if I want to get some kids right now.

[Marshall Palette]

Look, single gay men can have kids. You know, it's just. It's, you know.

[Matt]

Well, yeah, it's. It's absolutely very true. I just have to get very, very wealthy. And despite what my cardigan would have you believe, I am not very, very wealthy.

[Marshall Palette]

Well, you'll look rich.

[Matt]

Thank you so much.

[Marshall Palette]

It's giving cardigan, Daddy.

[Matt]

Thank you. I will say I'm an uncle to a handful of children, and they are the only children that I do like, but I'm sure your kids are great, both of you.

[Marshall Palette]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're perfect. But. But I was. I was thinking about, like, I. I don't know if this is true of everyone. This must be true of everyone. I cannot imagine my children younger than they are. I cannot access an image of them in my mind where they look any different than they do right now. And I look at pictures of them, you know, like, the other day, I was looking at pictures of the day that my son was born four and a half years ago. That's the day that Ethan. That's the day that this all started. And it does not look. I feel like that's so wild that that's my son, because that's not my son. And in that same way, with a play, sometimes, like, you love it so much, it's so much a part of you, and yet, like, it's hard. It's hard to access past versions of it because you spend so much energy shaping it for the present. Maybe that's total, like, writer, like, fluff bullshit, but, like, it's hard to access those earlier times, you know?

[Ethan Slater]

Well, it's interesting because I think I have a similar but different feeling, which is that, like. Like, it's hard to access until I remember where we were. Right? I'm like, oh, right. I wrote a lot of this, actually on a train. I was taking the Amtrak up and down from Philadelphia to. I was living in Philadelphia for a year, doing a play in New York, actually. A classic stage company.

[Marshall Palette]

Great theater.

[Ethan Slater]

Great theater.

[Marshall Palette]

Convenient.

[Ethan Slater]

And we were riding on that train. Right. And so I remember, like, sitting in the Acela, or not the Acela in the, in the cafe car with headphones on, trying to be cool writing with you. I also remember, just, like, look, we have these Google Docs where we outline and we outline and we outline and we outline. Marcel is one of the few projects where we have written a first draft from my recollection and not been like, we need to start completely anew.

[Marshall Palette]

Yeah, that's right.

[Ethan Slater]

Right. We. Which is interesting. We did enough background work on it that we, like, felt like we had a strong idea. And our outline really ended up being relatively true. Not in its specific scene work, but relatively true to what we did. Right. I think what we knew was first act, flashback, second act, flash forward, third act, we make it to the Alps.

[Marshall Palette]

Yeah.

[Ethan Slater]

And that's still there. Every other project that we've written together, and we've written quite a, Quite a few at this point, Matt.

[Marshall Palette]

Like, 12, like, so many scripts that it, it's, It's. Some of them are great. Some of them.

[Ethan Slater]

Some of them are great.

[Marshall Palette]

Some of them are really good, Matt.

[Matt]

I believe you guys. I, I'm envious.

[Marshall Palette]

I, I don't like rewriting. It's necessary. And actually, the difference between, like, an awful play and a great play is the rewrite. But you're good at.

[Ethan Slater]

Marsh. You're good at. You're good at getting yourself to do it.

[Marshall Palette]

Thank. That's true. Art's a muscle after all, Ethan. But, yeah, like, the germ of an idea, I think, is incredibly exciting. And, like, I've been, You know, I started, like, I started writing when I was at my first professional reading with Equity actors when I was, like, 13 years old. Like, it was. It's, It's. I've been doing it, so. And now I'm 16, and I've been doing it for three years, Matt.

[Matt]

And you have two kids. I mean, when I have two kids

[Marshall Palette]

who are four and two, like, the math is working out. If you think about it, it's a Doctor who timeline.

[Matt]

I get it.

[Marshall Palette]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it, you know, like, I've been at it for so long, and I think that I, I, I was, I was told with certainty that I would have a show on Broadway that I'd written before. I was 20. And then I was told with certainty that I would have a show on Broadway that I had written or directed by the time I was 30. At least one. By the time I was 40, I was like, there's just no question. I'm turning 40 soon. But I've been at it for so long. It wasn't until, I think, after I had kids or right before I had kids that I started realizing that in order to be a good writer, you had to have something to say. Like, you had to have an opinion about something, and you had to have things that were important to you and things that were not important to you and things that you wanted to explore and have your characters explore. Like, I just, I don't. I just didn't. I hadn't lived enough life to have an opinion on anything other than I want success and I want to be happy. And now the, like, the germination process is so exciting when you, when you find a subject, like, a thing to write about that, like, gets you going. You know, you're like, oh, yeah. And then, like, this could happen, and that could happen, and this could happen. And then you mix that with some, like, philosophical idea or some, like, universal truth about the human condition. Usually something that you're struggling with, something that you have, you can't figure out. And then you use the show to try to work it out and have characters to try to work it out in the context of trying to achieve some thing that to them is life or death, whether or not it actually is life or death. Like, that process, like, that germination process now, at this point in my life is, like, so fucking exciting. Whereas, you know, when I was 14 or 22 or 31, it was like, what if it's a. What if it's a knight and a dragon? Wouldn't that be cool if it was a knight and a dragon? And it's really as simple as that. And they're like, okay, well, I know it's gonna be a knight and a dragon, so what are they gonna sing about? What's the dragon gonna sing about? Oh, maybe the dragon's sad. That's funny. Like, that's how into a project. And now it feels like, you know, I don't know. I've just. I've lived enough that, like, I, I, I. I've got stuff I want to say and stuff I want to work out that is interesting about what it means to be a human. And I just, I really like that process. The process of, like, scene four isn't working. I'm like, oh, God. Okay, well, what. How do we make scene four like that? That's not as fun, but it's. It's just as necessary.

[Ethan Slater]

It's funny because I think I came at it from an opposite point of view, which is like, I had basically one thing that I wanted to say. But I started writing when I was. When I was in high school. I mean, really started writing when I was in college. And acting has been my primary thing, but, like, you know, I always wanted to be a writer, right? Being a writer was the thing I always wanted to do. And I was always writing constantly. I just wasn't, like, you know, getting it produced or. Or, like, grinding as a writer. So I have all. I've amassed all of these things that I've written over the last 20 years of my life. I always had something that I wanted to say. I just didn't quite know how to say it. And it took until I was in my mid-20s, early mid-20s, before I started just, like, devouring books about writing and structure and whatever and all that stuff. And so for me, it was kind of the opposite thing, where I was like, it's not like I had lived so much life. I had so many things I wanted to say. And actually a comment for my sister, at one point, she read a script of mine, and she was like, wow, you're really, like, one thing happened in your life, and you've been trying to make sense of it ever since. That's true. Now I have more things to say. I've lived a little more life. But I also think that I had to sort of learn in my mid-20s, early to mid-20s, what structure was, which is why I think Marshall and I found each other at a really great time. It was like 2016 to 2020. I was, like, devouring books about structure. And so I had, like, a. An intellectual understanding of structure. It wasn't in my bones fully, but I knew how to do it. And I know how to talk about the Hegelian dialectic, and I know how to talk about all these. I know. Thank you very much. That is the most basic, like, 100 one thing to pull out of nowhere. I know how to talk about, like, you know, I don't know.

[Marshall Palette]

That's. Now talk about Heidegger.

[Matt]

You have a hanging on every word. I'm like, what's the end of that sentence? I know.

[Ethan Slater]

I was like. I got, like, really into, like, John Truby's book on screenwriting, like, the 22 rules for Stewart's Screenwriting, Anatomy of a Story. I got really into like, you know, into the Woods, a five act story structure. I got really, you know, I got really into all of these books and I like, was writing a script based on each book. Right. That was the exercise. I didn't realize it was an exercise, but it was. Every book I read, I wrote a script based on that book. And then I. Then it like started to make sense and I had. I had one thing that I think is one of the. One of the things I'm most proud of that I'd written. And I sent it to Marshall and that was kind of what got us going. But I think we found each other at a time where Marshall has a lot to say and he knows how to say it. And I have learned how to say what I want to say. And I've always been trying to do this. And we now are like. We came at it from two different angles, but we met sort of at the same place where we have our own personal understandings of story structure. The ways that we tell our stories that are different. Right. We speak differently, we write differently. We have different ideas of how to follow a structure.

[Marshall Palette]

Yeah, our. Our solo writing stuff is not the same vibe. You know, like sometimes, like I. What I really like about like listening, especially Ethan's music. I really like Ethan's music. And I would never write it. I would never write it, and vice versa. Right. I'm just like, that's so cool. Cause this is so uniquely you. Like, it's just so subjectively you. And like when it comes to, like when we're. When we're being. Cause we, we basically like, we're kind of in on each other's everything, you know, like, we're in on each other's everything. And because our solo aesthetics are so different from each other, it's actually. It's this great objective voice, right? Where like Ethan can say to me or I can say to him, it's like, okay, what's the thing that you're trying to achieve? The song's good. What's the thing that you're trying to achieve here? And the other person will be like, well, this. It's like, cool. I like the song, but it's not achieving that. So, like, have you considered this? Or consider that? And then usually those suggestions aren't like the right answer, but like, like unlocks the thing. That unlocks the thing. That unlocks the thing. It's a. It's. It's a. It's a really.

[Ethan Slater]

It's.

[Marshall Palette]

It's one of the most important relationships in my life, Ethan, and he's a good guy.

[Matt]

I was going to ask you. This actually kind of ties into this question because I asked this to Max and Mitch. I asked this to Jill. When it comes to feedback or even just criticism in general, like, when. What is sort of the defining line for you of knowing when feedback is not really applicable to what you're doing and when it's actually like, oh, that is a good point. I'm going to hold on to that.

[Marshall Palette]

I think I find that it is always valuable. I really like it. Sometimes you're not in the space to hear it. And I think that Ethan and I have been around it long enough that we know when they're like, you can say something to me. I'm not. I can't. I. I just need you to tell me it's perfect, and then tomorrow you can rip my ass to shreds. But, like, I, I, like, I'm in a space where I can, like, hear criticism. I think that feedback is super, super valuable in aggregate. So, like, if someone has, like, someone's opinion or a review that is specific, specific, specific, like, I'll read it, I'll listen to it, but I'm kind of, like, listening to the. The vibe of it. And then if I get, like, 30 different, you know, items of feedback and, like, everyone's kind of pointing to a similar thing. If 20 out of 30 people, like, are discussing a similar thing that they had an issue with, then I'm like, okay, well, there, there might be an issue there. So it's not really like. And, and sure, there's, like, some people whose feedback we weight higher than others if they're a professional dramaturg or our producers or whatever. But. So that's where I think it's really valuable. And usually, usually feedback is like, I find that it's helpful in pointing to areas of the show to look at that. I don't find that it's as helpful in actually diagnosing what a problem might be or what a solution could be. And, like, if we've done our work, like Ethan and I have done our work, like, we know what is important to us about the show. We know why the structure is, why it is like it. And that doesn't mean that the next draft is going to look like this draft or the draft before looked like this draft. Like, things might change. And there are things that are important to us that we lose along the way. Right? Like, there might be when a piece is all said and done. You might have started out with 10 ideas, and by the end there's three left. And then you really make the show about the three and you cut seven ideas that were important to you. But I do think that listening to areas is helpful and being like, okay, well, people aren't liking this thing. They think it's because of this thing. I don't think that's the thing. I think it's because we set it up this way and no one's listening to that. And that is not making this clear.

[Ethan Slater]

Like, why don't we.

[Marshall Palette]

Why don't we try that as a solution? So that's how I kind of process feedback. What about you, Ethan Slater?

[Ethan Slater]

I sometimes get defensive, but I will.

[Marshall Palette]

No, don't say it. Say it ain't so, Ethan.

[Ethan Slater]

It happens sometimes. I will sometimes say, I'll die on this hill. But I also, I do value feedback also. I think one of the things that's hard about giving feedback, when you're giving feedback, it is important to try to say, how are we going to best tell the story that you want to tell? Because art is subjective. It is not objective. And I think that's a trap that people fall into when they haven't spent enough time considering what it means to tell a story. A story, art, it's all a subjective experience. The telling of it, the receiving of meets you where you are, and it comes from you where you are. So, like, you can't be objective about it. I think that's why the aggregate thing is so helpful. Right? Like, here's where there's a hiccup in the storytelling when some. When you're giving feedback. And also one of the ways that I don't like to receive feedback, but I'm better at it in the last 10 years than I used to be, is like, if you're, if you want to say, like, hey, I think you're going for this, it's not succeeding here. I don't know why, or I think I do know why. I don't know what to do about it or would. Are you open to ideas of what to do about it? Because diagnosing something and prognosing something, prognosing sounds.

[Matt]

Sounds real to me.

[Ethan Slater]

Diagnosing and prognosing are really different when it comes to art and when it comes to the way that you're actually going to make something better. So I think the aggregate thing is really helpful because again, if 10 people say, I would tell the story this way and they point to a specific spot, and 10 people say, like, hey, I was confused by this thing, then that spot is not serving your story.

[Marshall Palette]

That's your problem spot.

[Ethan Slater]

That's your problem spot. Those 20 people might all be completely wrong about why, because they don't. They might not know what you're going for, but by addressing that moment, you can get them on board. And what's really fun about a preview process, especially one with Jill, who is incredible, and Mitch and Max, who are, like, wonderful and thoughtful and smart people, all three of them. I include those adjectives for all of them.

[Marshall Palette]

We're really lucky

[Ethan Slater]

is that we have an aggregate of good notes from them, and we don't always take their notes in a prognostic kind of way. We often address it completely differently based on how Marshall and I feel about the problem areas that they're pointing to. And it's been really fun to see them get on board when we make the change. That isn't what they suggested, but is what they pointed to. And also, we take their suggestions sometimes quite head on, like, they're great and they often have really great ones. But I'm just saying that there's also been the experience of, hey, we've pointed to this problem area. All of us have pointed to it. We all have different takes on it. We all have different things that we would like to see there. Marshall and I also have a different take of what we'd like to see there. We put in our thing and suddenly everyone's happy. Like, that's a cool experience, too. And that also is, like, a good sign that we're all aligned in trying to, like, have the best idea win.

[Marshall Palette]

And I also think that, like, you know, audience feedback is usually much more blunt than that. It's not so thoughtful. Like, I love listening to people after shows, all shows. Just like, I like to. I like to stay anonymous and just, like, kind of walk around and hear what people are saying. And people being like, wow, wow. Or like, I don't get it. I'm like, well, that's actually. That's helpful. And audience body language is feedback too, right? Like, when everyone in the room starts to shift. When everyone in the room checks their watch, that's telling you something. And it might not necessarily be telling you that what's happening is bad. It might be that, like, it's been really tense and suddenly there's a moment of tension release. And people, when they're. The tension is released, like, need to. And sometimes that's good. Sometimes that's important, you know, but an audience will tell you a lot with Their body language.

[Ethan Slater]

Pat Marshall. There's a crazy moment after the Nazi scene. Spoiler alert. Where I just like noticed in my periphery that in the front row, like six people were like leaning forward.

[Marshall Palette]

Yeah.

[Ethan Slater]

And all six at the same time went,

[Marshall Palette]

yeah.

[Ethan Slater]

And I was like, whoa, that's cool. I mean, it was like a shift and it like was like noticeable and whatever, but it was also just like, oh, right. They were like slowly leaning forward over the course. Like they were physically doing the thing that we were hoping they would do. Yeah, it was a cool thing to see. I just. You weren't there for that show, so I thought I would. Thanks. Yeah, that's.

[Matt]

When you, when you're performing the show, Ethan, how are you able to compartmentalize feedback from the audience as the actor and as the writer?

[Ethan Slater]

Oh, can't. Can't really. It's not really possible. It's just. There's too much. There's too much wrapped up in it. I'm trying to be. And I think relatively successfully, like when you're. Okay when you're acting in something, you can feel the audience. You can feel when you lose them, you can feel when you have them. You can feel when they're ready to laugh. And we had to learn the audience a little bit with this show, but you can feel when they're an audience who's like, excited to laugh, and when it's an audience who's like a little too nervous to laugh, you really can feel it. It's harder to diagnose whether that is a script thing or an audience thing or a performance thing, because I just have to switch my brain into performance brain. And so when something doesn't work on stage, my instinct is, well, I did it bad, you know, oh, it's cause I did bad job. But when it does work, I'm like, it's because it's written perfectly and because I performed it perfectly. But it's hard to blame the writing when you're on stage.

[Marshall Palette]

Yeah, it's, you know, when you are also in a theater, there's 200 seats in the classic stage. And so it's a pretty small sample size. And so 50 people who are on the mood to. To rock in a Broadway house of, you know, 900 people. Those 50 people aren't gonna like, it's. It's too small of a rock to make waves in a 200 seat house. Suddenly the. The whole ship starts rocking. If 50 people are just like in the mood to party. And then you can be like, whoa, this is like a Rock concert. This show is amazing. And then if you have like 50 people who, you know, it's Friday night and they've had a long week and they're tired and they're. And they're gonna fall asleep no matter what, you know, no matter what you do for them. Then you're like, wow, is this show a snoozer? Like, it's amazing how because of the small sample size of this audience, you really have to evaluate it over the course of a week and not the course of a performance to actually understand what's working and what isn't.

[Ethan Slater]

Can I throw one really quick tangential lesson I learned? Yes. There's a guy who I'm hoping is listening. I hope he's listening. He was house, right front row. I walked out to do the very first thing of the show and he was dead asleep. And I was like, oh, right. Sometimes people fall asleep because they're tired when they arrive. Now, I will say people don't really sleep during Marcel. It's pretty high stakes. It's really intense. There are silent moments, but they're always like, nobody's sleeping through this show. Fortunately, I've been through show. I've been in shows where people do sleep through it. But, like, it was a good lesson generally. Like, sometimes, you know, again, subjective art is where it meets you and it comes from a subjective place, and it meets you in a subjective place. And sometimes people just like, came to a dark room to sleep in.

[Marshall Palette]

And so I think that, like, the way that you have to. I feel like I'm such, like a scientist. It's like. It's just like. It's not a science. It's just so feelsy and artsy.

[Ethan Slater]

But like, like not a scientist.

[Marshall Palette]

But you have to evaluate an audience based on their starting place. Right? Like, if they've come in and they are like from the very beginning, a quiet, attentive audience, and by the end of the show, they're a fidgety audience, you've lost them. And that's something to look at. If they start a fidgety audience and they become a quiet, attentive audience, you've gained them. You know, like something in the show is working. What was the question? Like, are there things that have surprised you? For sure. I think that we went on a wild ride the first 10 performances as we were figuring out tone, especially with the comedic moments. And comedy is. The whole thesis of the play is that it's a person trying to bring light and comedy into light to the fucking Holocaust. That's what he's trying to do. And. And that's also the central dramatic tension between him and the character who is most often his foil is that she's like, this is not the right way to be. And ultimately, how do we synthesize things? How do we bring in all parts of ourselves to traumatic moments is what the show is about. So modulating, if that's the right word, the comedy has been a thing that we spent. Spent a lot of time on.

[Ethan Slater]

And I want to reference also, like, so at the first preview, the first full house, we had spent weeks in a rehearsal room doing a play that Marshall and I wrote in a way that was delightful, funny, but also very aware not only of the horrors of the Nazis and the Holocaust and what it means to be hunting children, but also about how relevant it is today. Right? Like. Like we live in a world where there are secret police hunting children, where there are soldiers who are shooting children, shooting at children, specifically civilian children, because of who they are, where they were born. We have bombs that are aimed at buildings that have children in them. And so, yes, every life is precious and all that, but our play is about the lives of children and the right that they should have to grow up without fear of being hunted. Anyway, so that's how we wrote this play. It feels very relevant to us. It feels, like, urgent to us. And yet when we were in the rehearsal room, we were having so much fun. We were making so many jokes because we're Jews, that's what we do. And we kind of forgot that, yes, these are jokes, but they're jokes in the darkness. They are jokes to try to bring light to darkness. And we had a quiet, attentive audience. And my sister, who I think is brilliant and not an artist, she's a lawyer. And her and one of her closest friends, who I also think is quite brilliant, were at the show and talking to them afterwards, I was like, well, we've got a clunker, it's terrible. And they were. And they like, completely, completely changed my thinking on the play. And this isn't to be self aggrandizing. This is just like a process thing. And what they said to me, like, really, like, changed my point of view. They were, they were like, well, look, if you're going for big laughs, sure, that might be fun, but it sort of misses the point. Isn't the point that, like, what is the tool of humor in a moment where fascism is descending on us? Like, like, isn't it the question of is. Is humor? Oh, like, you know, an opiate of the masses, or is it a tool against the fascist? Is it. Is it something that was, like, powerful and important, or is it something that is frivolous and that is. Isn't that a conversation that you're having in the piece? And also, like. And then they started pointing out all of the things that we were going for. And for me, again, this is a loved one. This is somebody who's invested in cares and is going to give me the most positive spin on it. But they talked for, you know, hours over the course of a couple of days about how they felt about the play. And for me, that was, like, this huge relief, right? Because, yes, we had to modulate laughs and we had to think about what the audience is primed for. But it was also a reminder that, like, we're still learning about the play, but the core of it, all, the work that we spent four years doing, it reached the stage. We just didn't know what that was going to look like. And there was no way for us to know what it was going to look like until we were there. And I thought that that was cool. It was. I feel very grateful that I had a very specific couple of mouthpieces in that first preview audience who could sort of illuminate what the audience experience is like, because it's too hard when you're this close to fully judge what they're thinking.

[Matt]

And, yeah, I mean, you guys have been with this for so many years now.

[Ethan Slater]

You've.

[Matt]

You're coming out of the woods just to have this performance right now. You do need those outsider voices to help you. And I was telling Maximitch when we first started this series, the way they were describing this production, the way you guys have described it as, well, it's a very heightened proof of concept in a lot of ways. This is not a finished project. You know, you've had it on the page for so long, you've done developmental readings, but this is the first time you've been able to see it as a whole. And so it's exciting to see where it can go from here. What was I gonna say? Sorry, I was too busy absorbing both of what you guys were saying, that I forgot my next question, so I don't know what to ask next, but we are wrapping things up.

[Marshall Palette]

What are we gonna do in the next production? I'll tell you. More nudity.

[Matt]

Thank you.

[Marshall Palette]

More nudity. More nudity. I think that the audience has come with a very specific thing in mind. We have to deliver on the promise of the premise Ethan Slater, hanging Dong. Yeah, I think it's just like.

[Ethan Slater]

It's like, there is no nudity in this play. Marcel will not get me naked on stage. Stop asking.

[Matt]

I was told that the working title was Marcel Runs a Train, not Marcel on the Train. And so, I don't know, I just

[Marshall Palette]

think that, like, the Matt. The Marcel Marceau, makes the invisible visible. And I think that, like, we don't need props or clothes in order to tell our. We want the audience to meet us half Marshall.

[Matt]

We're all interested to know, Ethan, if those SpongeBob SquarePants are really square answer.

[Marshall Palette]

Oh, brother.

[Ethan Slater]

You know, just say, oh, brother.

[Matt]

Wordplay for days. You guys are visual artists with this. I'm. I'm a verbal idiot is what I'll say. Yeah, no, but. So once Closing night happens, what does April, May, June, July look like for you guys? Just in general. And then connected to Marcel.

[Ethan Slater]

I. It's. It's sometimes hard to know. There's always. There's always things when you're. When you're a writer or an actor, particularly an actor, sometimes your next job, you're, like, waiting on the word go. So there might be some. Some of that stuff, but right now, I think I've got two solo things that I need to write in the next four months, which I'm not gonna talk about. And Marshall has the fullest docket of plays and musicals coming up that he's written and he's directing that he can talk about if he wants to. And then also, we're gonna work on Marcel. Like, that's. That's. I mean, that's maybe priority number one.

[Marshall Palette]

Yeah, I think that, like, when it comes to Marcel, you know, we will, at a certain point, know more about what it's. Yeah, yeah.

[Ethan Slater]

The.

[Marshall Palette]

You probably talked to Mitch and Max about this, but, like, you know, part of their job now is figuring out what comes after this. And we talk to people and greet people and have conversations with people, but that's. You know, that's.

[Ethan Slater]

They'll.

[Marshall Palette]

They'll let us know, you know, at a certain point what we're gonna do, and then based on that, we'll adjust our plans accordingly. You know, we have high hopes. We really believe in the show and are proud of it, but. Yeah, no, my next couple of months are. It's mostly preparation. I get to be at home for a while. Just, like, during the day, I'm just preparing, and at nights and weekends, I'm with my family and my kids, because then starting in the fall, I will be away from Home, working on a number of things for basically three quarters of a year.

[Ethan Slater]

Very exciting, very cool things.

[Marshall Palette]

A number of things in a row. And. But, you know, there's also. Show business is like. Some things take three years to prepare for, and sometimes someone's like, hey, that thing you weren't expecting, it starts tomorrow. And that's your life now. And you just have to be very agile. And so I try to. I think Ethan does, too, in the moments of calm that, you know, are going to be calm, to really invest in the calm and to invest in and the family. Because I can say for sure, like, the preview process is hard when you have a young family. You work all day, and there's a show at night, and by the time you get home, everyone's asleep. And you work on the weekends. Your day off is Monday. The kids are in school on Monday. It's a tough stretch. And so I'm looking forward to this couple of months.

[Matt]

Very nice. Well, gentlemen, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us on all of this. I'm trying to think of any last things to kind of send us out on a very esoteric, moving high. Anything you want to say about Art or Marcel on the train or me? What have you loved about talking to me?

[Ethan Slater]

It's been delightful talking to you.

[Matt]

Well, thank you, Ethan.

[Ethan Slater]

That's a hard.

[Marshall Palette]

You lead.

[Ethan Slater]

Well, you're thoughtful. You bring a lot to the table, and I'm very. I'm grateful that we were able to have this conversation.

[Matt]

I'm grateful that you guys were able to make the time for us. Thank you, Marshall. Add on to that, say beautiful things about me right here, right now.

[Marshall Palette]

I just hope that someday your bank account matches your exterior because you are giving rich from. You're giving millionaire. And I just. I want only good things for you and for your future apartments.

[Matt]

Jesus Christ. I'm gonna make sure that's all written down and printed somewhere from both of you. Thank you, gentlemen. We close out every episode of Broadway Breakdown, even on this special series, with a nice Broadway diva to close us out with. So far, we've had Edith Piaf from Max and Mitch. We've had Bernadette Peters, I'm pretty sure, from Jill. And I would love for you two to come up with a nice little Broadway gal to close you guys out.

[Ethan Slater]

Just to pick one. I mean, can it. I mean, this may be a basic suggestion, but could it be, like, do we pick a song?

[Matt]

You can be specific if you want the song as well. Yeah. Some people pick just the Diva. And then let me pick the song. Some people are very specific about what song they want.

[Ethan Slater]

I mean, I hate to say it, but it might be a basic choice. But I would love Patti lupone's Everything's Coming Up Roses.

[Matt]

Sure. Absolutely. Marshall, do you want to co sign that?

[Marshall Palette]

Can I pick a different one?

[Ethan Slater]

Yeah, yeah, let's find out.

[Matt]

Yeah, let's see what you want. Well,

[Marshall Palette]

I'm going new school. I'm going new age and something close. Someone close to Ethan Slater. I'm going with the crits. I'm going with Leslie Kritzer in this revival of Spamalot. Being the absolute divas diva I've ever seen on stage. I've never seen more diva than that diva.

[Ethan Slater]

That's a good one too.

[Matt]

That is a good one.

[Ethan Slater]

I'm down. I take Marshall's stand. Let's go with Kritzer.

[Matt]

Okay, we'll go with Kritzer then. Thank you so much, guys, for joining us. This has been fantastic. We're going to close out now with Ms. Kritzer. Take it away, Leslie.

[Ethan Slater]

Bye.

[Matt]

All right, that's going to do it. For this episode of Backstage Pass, I want to thank Ethan Slater and Marshall palette for their time and insight. I want to thank you all for your attention. And I want to thank. Thank Beatrice for getting us this backstage pass today. Tune in next week because Isaiah. Do y' all know Isaiah? Yeah, I go way back. Isaiah got us a backstage pass to chat with the production team of Marcel on the Train. We are talking lighting designer Brandon Sterling Baker, Tony nominee Brandon Sterling Baker. By the way, costume designer Sarah Lux, sound designer Jill BC Dubuff, and movement director Lorenzo Pisoni. That's a lot of different angles to consider when talking about putting a production together. So this cup overfloweth for this one. I'm telling you, stick around next week and I will get you all a backstage pass with me.

[Ethan Slater]

Thank you, guys.

[Marshall Palette]

You got it.

[Ethan Slater]

You got it.