A (3:07)

So what is your history then, with mime and with clowning then?

B (3:11)

Yeah, so I, my father, I kind of come from, I do come from a circus family, and my father was a clown, a silent clown for much of his career as a clown. Bill Irwin was kind of like my godfather. Father was in the room when I was born. And so I kind of couldn't help but kind of learn some of those skills by osmosis. And then, of course, you know, I, I've taken some mime classes in my life and I've worked with mimes and have done mime stuff. And so it's something that I felt very comfortable helping Ethan and Marshall with in the, in the process. There, there is a, there's such a long tradition of mime. So I just wanted to make sure that our version of it was an adaptation, you know, and not locked into the kind of more strict versions of it that do exist.

A (4:06)

So was Marcel Marceau a very strict version of mime then, or what was it exactly that made him so renowned?

B (4:15)

Well, that is a fascinating question. I think it was of a time, I think he was quite a good showman, actually. I think he was very good at what he did. And he came to the States at this kind of very incredible moment in theater where he fell in at this moment where people were searching for something new. It was kind of like, I think it was right around the time of, like the group theater was happening, like things were bubbling and he came to New York City and then that show transferred to Broadway, which was this kind of amazing coup. It was like a three person thing, but it was all this stuff that he had been doing in France forever, but once that happened in New York, he just became known. And his type of mime, you know, bibs, was the archetypal mime in the American psyche. You know, the striped shirt and the white and the black and, you know, the jazz pants, like, that was mime. Even though there was lots of people doing mime, that wasn't that.

A (5:19)

But his aesthetic and what he does is that's what we think of.

B (5:23)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (5:24)

So did, did Ethan and Marshall seek you out for this? How did this show come about, your path?

B (5:30)

I was minding my own business. I don't know what happened. I, I, I had worked with Ethan. Ethan and I both went to Vassar College. So I guess somehow he knew of me back then. This was pre spongebob. And then I was brought in to consult on a few things for SpongeBob. So we had. We knew each other, and then the producers knew of me from some of the other shows that I'd worked on in my past, but I'd never met Marshall. And so this was. Oh, man. Maybe this was two, three years ago. Anyway, I went in and just did, like, a couple days with Ethan and Marshall at Open Jar. This was before, like, kind of a backers audition sort of situation. And they had sent me this script, and I had read it, and I just thought, oh, this is. It's just so pure. The play is pure. And it felt like, here are two friends and they're making some art. And I just told him. I was like, yeah, I'll do. I'll absolutely help you any way that I can. I don't know if I'll be helpful, but I'm. I'm happy to do it. And. And it was. It was very easy for me and Ethan to work together. You know, he's obviously skilled, physical performer, and, you know, he'd watched a lot of Marceau on YouTube because there is a lot. You can do a deep dive if you want. And so we kind of talked about, like, what is it? What. What are we doing? You know, butterflies was a real thing, and he wanted to, like, quote it, and so I helped him with that. But then there were other things that were. Were just using the form to tell the story, and we just talked about how to do that. You know, what. What are the technical things about, you know, like, walking against the wind and how. What is the actual way that you do that? You know, where the weight transfers and all that kind of thing. But then how do you want to use it, really, in the play? How does it actually help? Or does it get confusing if there are props, if there aren't props, you know, so it was just kind of. I was throwing in my two cents, and they could. They could use it or not.

A (7:34)

Was there ever not a mantra, But I can't really think of any other term like a mantra throughout that process to help you guys delineate between or differentiate between something that was appropriate for the story and the moment and what was just paying homage to Marcel Marceau?

B (7:51)

That's a. That's a. Interesting question. I think we definitely had conversations about, okay, so Marcel had this very specific style. And sometimes this may be, like, sacrilege, but sometimes it was like, that's really good. Or that doesn't make any sense. Why is he doing that? And there, I'm sure there was some very deep kind of meaning to him, but it didn't translate to us now. And so I kept saying, well, you know, in some ways it's not good. You know, you can do it because it was important to him and because you can see it in all the videos. You know, some gesture that would make sense, but then, like, do we need it? Is this homage or is this quoting? You know, what are we doing? So that definitely did come up, but it wasn't like a, I don't know that we, we created a language like this is. We have to do it exactly like Marceau. Like that, that didn't really happen, except, except for butterflies, which is like, it's really like, get as close to that as we possibly can.

A (8:55)

And what is butterflies for our mind.

B (8:58)

Oh, sorry. Yeah. I'm just like, what? Everyone doesn't know what butterflies is?

A (9:02)

Well, for all I know, everyone does, but I, I, I'm, I'm speaking to the simplest simpleton that's listening to this. You're not alone in the universe. Someone else out there also doesn't know what butterflies is. Lorenzo doesn't mean any harm to Lorenzo.

B (9:16)

Marcel had this character and he had this thing of catching a butterfly, and it was a journey that he went on where he would have a butterfly net and he would catch the butterfly, and then he would put the butterfly in a satchel, and then he would catch another butterfly, and then he would hold it in his hand and all of a sudden, is it alive? Is it not alive? And does it, oh, no, it's dead. And then the butterfly kind of becomes, you know, nothing. And it's so, it's about almost like to me, it always spoke to,

D (9:49)

you

B (9:50)

know, the cycle of life and becoming dust. And, you know, it reeks of import, but it is this signature Marcel Marceau routine that he did from the time he was starting until he was, you know, quite old.

A (10:11)

When it comes to the art of mime, are there specific rules that one should always kind of keep in mind when they are pursuing it, when they're paying homage to it, crafting it?

B (10:29)

Yeah, that's, that's a good question. I, I, I, I don't know if there's specific rules. I don't know if there's specific rules. I don't, I don't subscribe to specific rules. If it is clear what the story is, then that's the rule. You know, if there is one. And so to me, there is a beginning and a middle of an end of every gesture. And you have to be very clear where a gesture begins and where it ends. And once you do that, that goes a long way to telling a story. There are definitely, like, things that you. They're. They're tricks that you can employ to do mime, you know, like stopping, having a little, like, energy point and make. All of a sudden, it looks like you're up against a glass wall. But that's not really what mime is. Mime is just kind of. It's telling a story with no words, with your body, you know? And so whatever you do to make that happen, that's what it is. Yeah.

E (11:21)

Got it.

A (11:21)

Yeah. I think that's important for people to remember, because people think of mime and they think it's just, you know, oh, let me act like I have a hammer in my hand, even though there, you know, is no hammer. And I. I need to act out every physical detail.

B (11:33)

Yeah. And I don't think of that. While we were working with the cast, you know, it's like we would give. We would have the actual items and say, oh, you're. You're folding up a letter. Okay, cool. Let's get a piece of paper. How do you do it? How do you fold up the letter? And now let's take the piece of paper away and do the exact same gesture at the same. At the same speed at the same time, you know? And. And it's amazing because people think, oh, my, my. I have to be so precious about it, and. No, you don't have to be precious about it. You just have to be precise about it. And those two things are different.

A (12:03)

I might get that tattooed on my forearm, and every time I go see a show and people ask me what I thought of their performance, I'll just show them my forearm. That's what I'm gonna do.

B (12:12)

I think you're just gonna have to go to a lot of shows with, like, short sleeves. Just, like, just be like, hey, what's up?

A (12:17)

You say that like, I don't do that already. I see a lot of shows. I'm in my tank and people after my thoughts all the time, and I have to take a moment to think about what I'm gonna say. But if I just have. That says all I need.

B (12:30)

There you go. Good or bad? You know what I'm saying?

A (12:33)

Absolutely. Has there been any. When it comes to Marcel and the train, because you've been a moving consultant or movement director, is There a difference between the two, by the way? Movement director, movement consultant.

B (12:44)

I think that's a question for producers. I don't know, honestly. I think honestly, it's the amount of time that I can give most of the, like, the commercial theater things that I end up working on can run the gamut of I'm there for an afternoon or I am there through the duration, and depending on what my area of responsibility is, it'll run the gamut. So that's a long winded answer for that question.

A (13:17)

No, you're talking to the king of long winded answers, Lorenzo. So by all means, hail.

B (13:23)

Hail. All right, great.

A (13:25)

But I mean, you've worked on plenty of projects both, you know, Broadway, Off Broadway, touring the world. How has Marcel been similar to other theatrical projects? And how has it been different for you? Or has it not been either? Has it just been this one little anomaly about butterflies?

B (13:45)

No, no, I think it is different. You know, there's a few. I didn't know Marshall before this project, and I do. There's a few directors that I will go work with any day of the week and twice on Sunday just because I like being in a room with them, but I didn't. And that's not why I chose to do this. I really chose to do Marcel because of the script and because of what they were trying to do kind of with seemingly on their own. I mean, not entirely right. But it was a small thing, and I thought this. It felt good. It felt like righteous and a story worth telling. And. And it wasn't for the money. You know, it was really just for the art of it. And the puzzle of it is really interesting. Can I get all these, you know, whatever. It's like six people in the cast, seven people in the cast. And can I get these people to effectively use mime to help tell this story in the way that Marshall and Ethan imagined it happening? And so that was cool. That was worth doing.

A (14:52)

Yeah. That's wonderful. Well, Lorenzo, I think that covers everything we were hoping to cover. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today. I'm glad we got you while we still got the natural daylight over in Bristol right now.

B (15:04)

I mean, we picked like, the only 20 minutes since I've been here. It's like this is it. It's been rainy and dark.

A (15:11)

What can I say? I'm known for my amazing timing.

B (15:14)

Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

A (15:17)

Thank you. And we will hopefully see you around. Thank Lorenzo.

B (15:20)

All right, thank you. Bye.

A (15:21)

All right, thank you, Lorenzo. Now we are going to grab that pass and chat with Brandon Sterling Baker, who, along with his company, Studio Luna, did the lighting design for Marcel on the Train. Brandon is a Tony nominee for his work on Illinois and is, in fact, a frequent collaborator of Justin Peck's, leading his work to be seen all over the world. He is also a lecturer of design at the David Geffen School of Drama at Yale, and we were able to grab him while he was in the middle of preparations for a new production. So let's just get right into it. Brandon, welcome to Broadway Breakdown. Hi.

E (15:55)

Good to see you.

A (15:55)

Good to see you, too. So you are the lighting designer on Marcel on the Train. How did this project come into your path? Because you primarily work in the world of ballet? As far as I can tell?

E (16:09)

Yeah. No, my background is primarily in the world of ballet and visual art. And so I don't really work in theater. So often I work. I would say I work in theater, sort of a la carte. It's kind of on select basis. And I was approached by actually, Scott Davis, who's the set designer for the production. And Scott and Marshall go way back, and they. You know, it's always a tricky and unique sort of opportunity when you're the outsider on any project. And so for me, what I think is pretty amazing is that Marshall really carefully curated the design team, and he sort of really had to think about who are the right sort of people for this project. And, I mean, separate from me also being Jewish, this was like. This project had a lot of sort of personal and creative, like, elements that were exciting to me. And, you know, I think as a designer working in ballet especially, I'm very often working with empty space and very comfortable with. With creating space where nothing exists. And with this play, it truly happens in sort of this dream logic. And so I think that's really why they hired me, why they called me to do this, is they wanted someone who could follow that. That sort of logic for a production like this.

A (17:29)

Were there what kind of conversations were being had amongst the production team with Marshall and the designers of sort of what they were going for for the story, for the vibe, for the aesthetic?

E (17:41)

Yeah, I mean, like, what's interesting when I. When I get any script for anything I work on, it's. It's always interesting, the first pass when you read a script, how you sort of imagine it in your mind before you speak to the director. And when I first read the script, it felt very simple in a lot of ways. It felt like very straightforward. It felt almost in A weird way, like a documentary. But then when I had my first meeting with Marshall, I was like, oh, wow, he has a whole other thing going on with this production. And I realized that there was something much deeper going on in this production. And so it was really about the aesthetic. Questions were about how do we illustrate a dream, how do we illustrate a memory on the stage? And I think as a lighting designer, a lot of my job is to organize space and also teach the audience how to understand a story. And so a lot of that weight is kind of thrown on me. But I think of that as a beautiful weight. I don't think of it as a problem. I think of it as, like a really beautiful opportunity to help tell a story truly just through light and space. And I think that, you know, it says a lot that, you know, I think it. It speaks to Marshall and Ethan for being so open to bringing a designer like this into this type of production.

A (18:58)

How do you light a dream?

E (19:01)

I come from the belief that, you know, the moment an audience walks into any space, that the story begins, and that you immediately, as a lighting designer, have to teach the audience what is real and what is a dream in some way. And so for me, the audience walks in, in this case, at Classic Stage Company, and we see this sort of void with this, like, sort of beautiful wood sort of landscape, raw space. And it's all natural light. It's all colors that we experience in the real world, in our everyday life. And then the first time we ever experience an ounce of color is the first time we hear music. And so for me, when I listen to music, I listen for color. And the music teaches me a lot about the visual world. And so for me, it's an opportunity for me to explain to the audience that the color blue means dream. And that may sound very simple, but I promise you, there's something subconsciously that any audience member can sort of grasp. And so when we sort of cut from the train to the memory space, it's a very distinct color logic, and it's just about color and space. And obviously, this brilliant cast takes it even further. But for me, as a lighting designer, I strongly believe that I'm a designer of frames, so I'm just there to frame these scenes, but in an extremely cinematic way, because the way that it's been written by Marshall and Ethan is extremely cinematic. Everything rapidly snaps from one place to the next. And yes, that's in the writing, but it's also in the light. The light has to follow that rhythm. And so I'm very much a designer of frames, but also a designer of rhythm.

A (20:49)

How do you prepare lighting for a production that is constant movement? Do you light with it against it? How does that work in your brain?

E (21:00)

You know, what's interesting about that is the way I would light a ballet is really no different from the way I would light a play. And I think that that's a personal. Every designer you speak to will have a different answer for this, but that's how I sort of believe in this. And the first thing I do is I spend a lot of time in the rehearsal room with the director, the cast, and, you know, in this case, the playwright as well. And I'm studying the structure. I'm studying how the show is put together. And that's not technical. It's completely narrative. It's all like a narrative sort of logic. And so I'm taking. Actually, I learned a lot from a director by listening to them speak to their cast. And to me, when I hear a director speak to their cast, it tells me everything I need to know about how and why the light exists in that space. So it's really no different from when I'm lighting a ballet. I'm listening to the music score. I'm studying very carefully how a choreographer is working with a space. Is it a controlled space? Is it about a landscape, or is it more about the people? One of the first things I asked Marshall was, is this a play about the people or is it about the place? And I think that can say a lot about how we reveal each sort of destination on this train ride. And so in this case, it was about the people, obviously. But I also think that the space and the location had to be a little bit on our minds. But it wasn't like a literal translation of a butcher shop, a Vietnam camp, or a train station. It was more the people first and then the place second.

A (22:45)

There's a great deal of tension and suspense, I suppose, in this play. And I was wondering, sort of, is that something that you take into account? How does one light for suspense and for tension? How do you sort of set the frame for that?

E (23:02)

I come from the belief that tension is all about context. And that I think that lighting the light I hope to create in any production I work on is somewhat inspired by the real world. Even a fantasy, even a dream, is somehow inspired by something maybe I've experienced. Even if it's in cinema, it's something that I've experienced in real time. And I think that when it comes to the tension, I think it's about the people. And I think that the actors can provide that tension. There is such thing, of course, as visual tension, and that the light can sort of. The light can help separate, like, the person from the place. But I think that the more real we. Real we can be with light, the more tension it can create. I have to tell you that the most thrilling thing on Marcel was working in the thrust. And for a lot of lighting designers, working in a thrust can be a nightmare because you have to light it for three different views, really. And I thought it was like heaven. It was so thrilling to be able to view the production and view every rehearsal from a different perspective. And what's so, I think, exciting about that is everyone in the audience gets a drastically different experience, and it has an extremely cinematic quality. It's almost like you're looking at watching conversation from behind someone's back, like over the shoulder, you know? And I think there's something extremely thrilling about the opportunity as a lighting designer to design for every point of view. And that's a really unique experience. I didn't expect that, I think, in this production. I mean, I had seen a lot of rehearsals, like I said, but I didn't realize how moved I would be by viewing the show from every possible corner in that space. And it says a lot also to Marshall. You know, I think Marshall really carefully crafted a show that can be experienced with such care from every point of view.

A (25:10)

When you got into the space and you started to sort of see how it was in real time, did that alter some of your plans for your design? Yeah.

E (25:18)

I mean, another thing that was really unexpected but thrilling is Marshall's very rhythmic in his transitions. And nearly every transition was synced up with light and sound and, in a way, choreography, the way he sort of staged the production. And so I think there's, like, a rhythmic punctuation to every single transition. And that was all from Marshall. I was sort of in charge of the visual aspect of this, but Marshall very much had a strong say in the rhythm and the placement. So it was a really unexpected collaboration in that way, but I think a great one. And every director and designer will work differently. Some designers feel very strongly they have to dictate when things happen. But to me, it's all a conversation. You know, it's like, I will create the images, and I'm very happy to say, hey, where do you think this should actually take place? Like, because I'm. There's nothing precious about that to me. It's just part of the back and Forth. And Ethan, too, was the same way. You know, if there was a light that could be focused in a more beautiful way or something that was more specific, he would adjust the staging to work best for the light. And I think it says a lot about these two people that they were really, really generous and curious, like, sincerely open to a close collaboration. There's something in the real world, lighting is not symmetrical. There's always some imperfection. And I think that that's a beautiful thing. And I think when shows sort of overproduce a production, it takes away the soul of a production. It takes away. There's something. Even as an audience member, I believe an audience is aware of that, even subconsciously. And so I love to see productions that are maybe responding to music in ways I never imagined. And I want to be clear. It's not that I'm saying lighting designers are reinventing light. It's just how they use the light that makes the difference. And like, there's an amazing quote from George Balanchine, the choreographer, who says there are no new steps, only new combinations. And I strongly believe that that sort of logic with light that, you know, I'm not reinventing light, but I'm providing new combinations that maybe you hadn't seen in this context.

A (27:44)

So the context is everything I feel very strongly of. There's design that draws attention to itself, and then there's design that impresses you because it overwhelms you, yet also still is a part of a greater whole,

E (28:00)

you know, and that, and I'm glad you said that because I, I sort of believe in, you know, the second thing. Like, I, I, I. I'm really not a. A designer who's interested in trying to draw attention to the light. Like, I, I. Everything's inspired by the music, especially with Su Fian's music. His music's extraordinary, and it's full of color. So I learn a lot about the light through listening to the score. And like, and in the case of Marcel, it's not a musical, but it sort of structurally behaves like one in the sense that it's very specific. And I feel like there's a similar logic in a weird way. I mean, obviously, Illinois and Marcel are very different shows, but I think there's a sensibility in the light that remains the same. And that's me. I can't deny the way I sort of think. That's just, that's why people are, I think, are hired for one project or the other. But so that's why, again, like, that's why I was honored that Ethan and Marshall trusted me, because I was, again, I was like the outsider on this project. So it's very special. And in some ways, that can be a scary thing, but in this case, it ended up being thrilling.

A (29:18)

Was it a bit of a learning experience as well? I mean, you're very established, but as you said, you haven't done much of theater like this before, both in a thrust and straight plays and whatnot. So was there anything that you learned from this experience?

E (29:31)

Oh, yeah, constantly. I mean, the thing that I strongly. The worst thing a designer can do is assume they have the answer. And I never, ever assume I know how I'm gonna light something. And so there is a total fear that comes in the prep and planning. I mean, I'm very confident in the work I do, but I would be lying to you if I said, oh, I knew that the light would work this exact way. But that's part of the beauty, you know, that as designers, we design options. The way I like to phrase it, it's almost like creating and designing a musical instrument. You're designing the light so it has extreme range. It can become anything at a moment's notice, but can also be quite simple and still and have a beautiful sort of quiet stillness. And I love light that can be both. That can be both very simple and elegant, but they can also provide some sort of vibrant electricity. And so I think that. That, you know, having the ability to do both, like, and also working with a director and a playwright who are very trusting, like, that's what made me say yes, you know, and so I'm very blessed that I'm in a place in my life where I can be really picky, and so. And I don't, you know, take anything for granted. And so. So, yeah, so, yes. Scary but thrilling.

C (30:55)

That's.

A (30:55)

Well, I think that's the perfect combo. Excited and scared, as one musical theater writer once wrote. Well, Brandon, I hope we see more of you in the New York theater. Would you have any projects coming up that you care to sort of share with us that we can look out for?

E (31:09)

I work a lot with Justin Peck at the New York City Ballet, and so literally every season at New York City Ballet, you can see my work at Lincoln Center. I'm speaking to you today from Boston, where I'm the resident designer for the Boston Ballet. And so we have a. We're doing a lot of work with these companies, but Sufyan Stevens, Justin Pekini do a lot of ballets together. And so if you look at the New York City Ballet website, you can see a lot of our works are constantly in rep. There's one specifically called Everywhere We Go, that's a Sushi and Stevens Justin Peck ballet that was from 2014. That's still running. And I think a lot of people don't know this about the world of ballet is. You know, ballets don't really close. They kind of are constantly in rep if they're successful. And so it's very exciting that you can see my work. I mean, it's now been almost over 10 years now. It has been over 10 years that you can see my work now. And so it's a very. It's a beautiful sort of thing to have a constant collection of works always around. And so I hope people can come to the ballet. And, yes, I have some stuff in the theater coming soon, but you'll hear about it soon, I promise.

A (32:20)

Fantastic. Well, we're very excited to hear about that. And yes, I definitely encourage anyone to go to the New York City Ballet if they can. I do enjoy my ballet. Well, thank you so much, Brandon. We're gonna let you get back to your very busy sched. And we really appreciate you talking with us today.

D (32:34)

Yeah, you too.

A (32:35)

Okay. Thank you, Brandon.

D (32:36)

Thank you.

A (32:37)

Thank you. So, okay, this pass is still burning a hole in my pocket, so I think we should move right along to our sound designer of Marcel on the train, Ms. Jill B.C. duboff. Jill is a Drama Desk nominee and her work has been heard on Broadway in such productions like the Tony nominated plays Hand to God and Mother Play, as well as Manhattan theatre club's summer 1976. Like Brandon Sterling Baker, she is also a lecturer of design at the David Geffen School of Drama at Yale and is, in fact, the head of sound design Concentration there. We were able to catch her while she was at the Guthrie working on her latest production. So let's just. Let's get right into it. Jill, welcome to Broadway Breakdown.

C (33:17)

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

A (33:19)

Lovely to have you. So you are the sound designer for Marcel on the Train. For the people who don't really know what that means, would you be willing to share a little bit, a bit of a breakdown on what sound designers do?

C (33:32)

Yes, I would be so happy to. All right, so the role of the sound designer is vast in that you, in you are not only the person who finds or creates all of the music and the sound effects, but you're also the person who decides what the sound system is. So when you go Into a space. Most spaces are totally empty. So then you decide based on the set design and where, you know, in conjunction with lights, because there's only so much space in every theater where all of the speakers go and, you know, and what kind of speakers and how they sound. And so for musicals that's, you know, the primary role. And then for plays, there's also the addition of finding or creating sound, sound effects and. And music.

A (34:26)

So when during the production process, is there someone on the production team you're probably in communication with the most outside of the director for sound design. Would it be the set designer then?

C (34:38)

Amazingly, it's actually the lighting designer because. Yeah, because there are so many places. There are. Because as I said, there are only so many places where you can put things and the speakers are much bigger than the lights. But, you know, you also want to make sure that we don't put our speakers and the lights in the exact same place. And also that the speakers aren't blocking the lights. And in, you know, something like Marcel and the Train, which is a smaller theater, but the set is three quarter thrust. And so we wanted to make sure to have an even spread for all of the audience. But there were challenges there as well, which I assume I'll go into in a little bit.

A (35:20)

You absolutely will. This is where I'll start to do my job a little bit. So is this your first time working in classic stage companies space?

C (35:28)

No, I have worked in classic stage Companies space quite a few times, but not in many, many years and not under Jill Ratson.

A (35:38)

So then how did Marcel on the Train come across your desk?

C (35:43)

I believe that somebody. I had never met Marshall before and somebody had reached out to me about it. Oh, Jill actually had suggested me for the. As the sound designer. And I met with Marshall and Marshall, it was like, it was a fast meeting and they sent me the script and they were like, can you meet with Marshall tomorrow? And I actually, I had gone out with my kids the night before. I took them to a concert, to the Broadway Descendants concert, which was very cute. Or I'm sorry, yeah, sorry, the Disney Descendants concert. So then I went home and I started reading the script and I was like, I'll see how much I can get through before my meeting with Marshall tomorrow. And I sat down and read it and I did not get up until the end of the play. I was like, this is a very, very good play. I would love to be part of this. And so when I talked to Marshall the next day, we got along really well. And I Was so excited to talk to him about the play because, you know, he is co author as well. And so I think from there we just, we moved forward and started getting to work almost immediately.

A (36:55)

What were some of your earliest conversations with Marshall about the design for this play?

C (37:00)

The characters are obviously on the train most of the time. And so it was really about. There was a lot about the train and there was a lot about perspective. You know, whose perspective is this is the story being told from. And there are four actors who play 12 year olds for most of the time on their train. And so everything feels a little bit scarier from that perspective. Obviously they are in a very scary situation and you know, so how to make it realistic so we know we're on the train. But also add elements of the unknown and things that you sort of are. Are not able to identify but sort of are in the back of your mind know are, are, you know, originate from trained sounds. And then there are all of the. The jump forwards and so you know, how to get into that, how to tell the story. That's a different time and a different space. And so the conversations were really about kind of how to build the world from sound. And I was so lucky in this show in that there is so much sound. There's sound almost the entire time, which is, you know, my dream come true. To be able to do that kind of thing is really exciting and fun and a huge challenge and one that I love.

A (38:30)

Absolutely. I mean, so I would im.

D (38:33)

Is it.

A (38:34)

Is it as equal a challenge to work in a more intimate space as a larger space? Or is it? Yeah. What are the challenges of that?

C (38:43)

Yeah, so this, so working in this space again because it's a three quarter thrust and they're on the train, you know, there's no hiding anything. And I didn't want to make any of the sounds feel sound effecty and I wanted to make the audience feel the train and you know, feel sort of feel, feel fear, feel release, feel all of it. So There are over 30 speakers in the space. There's a subwoofer which is the really bassy speaker under each audience bank so that I'm able to sort of like pump that up. So sometimes instead of hearing things, you'll just feel it, which is very cool. And because the space is so small, I'm able to, you know, one speaker does the trick there. So I'm able to sort of like pump that up. But each speaker has an individual output which means that each I can, I can put one sound in Just one speaker in many spaces. You will work with your sort of. Your main system, which is the. The presentational speakers. And in this space, because there was no sort of main seating area, I have main speakers that, you know, work for all of the seating banks. And so everybody gets everything equally for the music, for example. But then there are. In all of the rest of the sounds, you know, sometimes the train is moving to the left or to the right, or sometimes the. There are some, you know, some bomb sounds. And so those come from different places. So I was able to really play with having sounds come from everywhere, which was, you know, which I think added to the sort of feeling that you were actually experiencing all of this with the characters.

A (40:38)

Are you there in the rehearsal room at all to sort of watch the process? And does that give you ideas as you're watching? Are you more of a. You have to analyze the script and come up with it there? What is your process usually?

C (40:50)

Yes. So this is a great question. And this is, you know, not necessarily unique here, but the way that we approach this was a little bit unique. And so we had. Marshall and I had talked about all of the sounds before the. Before the first rehearsal, and I had sent him a bunch of ideas for everything. And we thought, okay, we'll start here. And we actually had. And I love to work with sound and rehearsal. I just feel that when you're able to work with sound in rehearsal, which is not always the case, but when you're able to a. The actors really, like, are able to get the sound in their bones. And also it's, you know, one less new thing during text, and so just makes. It makes the process that much smoother. But in this case, because the actors were really reacting to a lot of the. The sounds, they needed to have it in tech. And so we had a board op in rehearsal, which was great. Marshall, as I learned, is the program that we used to playback is called QLab, which is the standard playback software for almost every play. And Marshall, as it turns out, is a QLab expert. So he was able. Yeah, so he was able to go in. I would send them a qlab every day, which was the. You know, the whole show. And then Marshall would go in and he would make little adjustments, and then I would collect the QLab at the end of the day, and then I would have, you know, a whole page of notes, and then I would send them a new QLab the next day with all of the notes changed, and they would work with them. And then Marshall would be like, actually if this could start like, you know, three seconds later, or if we can, you know, and he would just go in and make the changes, you know, my new changes, but. But really important changes. And it made the process so much better because he was able to try things, really try things in rehearsals. So by the time we got to tech, we had a first draft of the whole show all set. And again, there's sound the whole time, so it was really helpful. And so in this case, not only did we have sound in rehearsal, but they really essentially tackled the show or tech to first pass of the show in rehearsal.

A (43:05)

What begins to change for sound once you get to previews, when there's an actual audience there?

C (43:11)

For many shows, when the audience gets in, depending on whether I've worked in the space or not, it's, you know, there's always a variable for, oh, it's too quiet or, oh, I, you know, I over anticipated how loud that should be or whatever it is, you know, and so there was a little bit of that here. A lot of it had to do with. With actually bigger changes that we made with script or with the blocking and responding to that. So in this case, although, you know what, actually we did have at one point, because Marcel is a mime, there's a lot of miming that happens in the flash forward sequences. And at one point we did actually have foley for every moment. So they would pretend to be chopping. And I, you know, they sent me a video in rehearsal of the actor chopping, and I chopped to follow it and then send that in and, you know, and then we adjusted from there or, you know, or whatever it is, or like opening the door or all of these things. And I can't remember. I think we maybe cut it right before first preview, but we did have a lot of that there. Yeah, That's a lot of fun, though. It was so much fun. It was so much fun. Even if we didn't use it, it was still a lot of fun to do.

A (44:27)

Well, now you have it in the bank for, you know, the next show you do. Like if you do a production of Our Town where the director's like, this time I want sound effects for all the miming. You're like, well, do I have a library for you?

C (44:38)

Right, right. And also there's. There's this amazing moment where they. They talk, you know, they. They cut a baguette and whatnot. So I was cutting baguettes and my kids were thrilled at how many baguettes they got to eat after I was done.

A (44:52)

With how you've got children with taste. What can I tell you? Baguettes are the best.

C (44:56)

Right? Yeah.

A (44:58)

Are there challenges with sound design that you have experienced both off Broadway and on Broadway that maybe a casual theater fan may not think about when they're going to see a preview of a show?

C (45:09)

There's this sort of adage in sound design, which is a good sound design is one you don't notice just because it's. It works so well with the production. And in musicals, you know, you'd want to. You don't want people to be like, ah, I couldn't hear that, or, you know, or it was muddy or the band was too loud or whatnot. You just want people to experience the show. And it's the same with plays. You really want people to just kind of experience it. You don't want people to necessarily take notice of things. And so I think that is always a challenge to make sure that you are woven into the fabric of the show. And then there's also, you know, audibility concerns of, you know, can we hear the actors? Can, you know, can we hear them everywhere? And I think, you know, post Covid, everything has gotten a little bit louder. People, I think, spent Covid with headphones like I'm wearing now and are just used to that sound now. And so I think that is, you know, go going back into the theater where it's. It's a live sound. You want it to feel organic, but you also want it to feel a little bit like you're, you know, turning up the volume in your headphones.

A (46:32)

Yeah, I know. For me, I love to feel like the orchestra music is like, washing over me, not, like, coming at me. And I know that's very hard because first of all, every theater is built differently. So acoustically, you don't know, band size is different. But that's always something that I've wondered how to figure out, how to make it feel like the music is sort of just washing in all around you and not just like either, like daggering at you or it feels like it's like a million miles away.

C (46:59)

Yes. Yes. It's so true. I am the type of sound designer, and I know I'm not unique in this, but I design to emotion versus script. And so you can sort of like, you know, the feeling of when it washes over you. And so, you know, that's sort of. That's what I always strive to achieve. So I'm with you. I think that is just a nicer feeling and, you know, intelligibility. Of course.

A (47:24)

Absolutely. When does your job come to an end? And when are you able to then move on to the next project?

C (47:31)

That's such a. That's also such a great question. It's the question that people ask all the time. They're like, so you don't have to be there for all the performances, which.

A (47:39)

But at some point you get to leave. So when does. When do you get to leave?

C (47:44)

Yes, yes. I mean, technically, according to my contract, opening, although we try to be done by the date we freeze, which is, I think, you know, when. When we decide that's enough, which is usually when the critics begin to come. And so, you know, you want the critics essentially to see the same show, each. Each critic to be able to comment on. On the same show. So you don't want to make too many changes. So you decide what date you freeze. And it's usually about a week before opening or like four or five days before opening. But, you know, are we ever done? Are there? I still. It's funny. I. You know, I'm there in tech. Hours and hours and hours. And then previews. We still have rehearsal during the day and then a preview at night. So you get to see. It's the instant gratification of seeing the changes you've made and seeing how the audience reacts to them. And. And then, you know, you freeze the show, and then you go away for four or five days or a week, and then you come back for opening. And I. I always come back from opening for opening, and I'm like, ah, I forgot to do that one note. Or like, oh, now after some time and space, I wish I had changed this, you know, this one thing. And so there are always those notes. So are you ever done? No, but at some point, you just have to walk away.

A (49:05)

Exactly. At some point, the show just opens and you. And you move on.

C (49:08)

Yes. Yeah, I do. I. There was actually one other. Back to your earlier question about, you know, sort of challenges for the show. There is the fart moment for people who haven't seen the show. You have seen the show.

A (49:23)

I have not. I'm hoping by the time this comes out, I will have. We're trying to get me. I don't know if, you know, this Jill show is super sold out and. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

E (49:32)

Oh, yeah.

A (49:33)

Like from the jump. And so because of the timing of this recording of all the recordings, we were not able to get me in during your previews and whatnot. But. But there's a fart moment, you say,

C (49:45)

so there's a fart moment in the play. And so that, you know, it's a play about the Holocaust, and so you just. You don't expect a fart moment in the play. And there is. And so picking the fart was something my kids, who are, you know, sort of kind of understand what I do. They come to all of my previews and whatnot. But I was working one day, and. And they were home. It was like, it was a Saturday. And I was like, y', all, can you help me? I get to pick a fart. And they're like, what?

D (50:20)

This is our specialty.

C (50:22)

My kids are 8 and 10, and they're like, this is what we do. We would love to pick a fart. So they helped me narrow down, like, our top three fart choices. But then, you know, seeing how the audience reacted to the fart, which, again, unexpectedly, we did go through quite a few farts in the show, which is, I think, you know, a surprising something, you know, a surprising moment in this process.

A (50:51)

I feel like fart design is one of those things that no one expects to do, but it's like a rite of passage. Well, a fart design and like, an important Holocaust story, and you got both in one show, so there you go. You're done. You made it to the top of the hill. Yeah.

C (51:06)

All right. When I come back from the Guthrie, no more.

A (51:09)

It's all lateral from here.

C (51:10)

Here I get a huge break, so.

A (51:13)

Well, Jill, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us on the Breakdown. Do you have any projects coming up you're allowed to talk to us about?

C (51:20)

Oh, yeah. Actually, so I am. I'm the head of the master's program in sound design at the David Geffen School of Drama at Yale, which. Yes, that's how I'm supposed to say this. Exactly. Yes. Yes. And so I did Marcel, and then right into this show, and actually, the rest of the semester, I'm going to. Going to be there with the students. They have many, many projects coming up. And so the rest of my. The rest. For the rest of the school year, I am. I'm going to just be with them.

A (51:55)

Wonderful.

D (51:56)

Yeah.

A (51:57)

Very lucky students. So thank you so much, Jill. We really appreciate this. This has been very wonderful.

C (52:01)

Matt, thank you so much for having me. This has been a lot of fun.

A (52:05)

All righty. Thank you very much, Jill. Very informative. Let's move right along to our final guest, costume designer Sarah Lux. Sarah is also a Drama Desk nominee. Similar to Jill, you have seen her work on Broadway in productions like Bug. Kimberly Akimbo. John Proctor is the villain and dead outlaw. She is currently in tech for the upcoming the fear of 13. Was able to give us a few minutes while she was working on that. So let's just grab our pass and head right over to Sarah. Sarah, welcome to Broadway Breakdown. Hello.

D (52:39)

Thanks for having me.

A (52:40)

So you are the costume designer on Marcel on the Train. How did this project come across your lap? Have you worked with Classic Stage Company before?

D (52:50)

No, I've actually never worked with Classic Stage Company before, but I did work with Ethan Slater on spongebob. So I was the associate costume designer for spongebob. So Ethan and I were together off and on for about five years. So it was a long. That was a long process. And so then when Ethan and Marshall decided to produce this show, Ethan reached out to me as someone that he had worked with in the past to see if I was interested. And once the material was there and the opportunity for Ethan, I absolutely said yes.

A (53:25)

So with costume design, obviously, I mean, I think people sometimes get into the headspace of, let's say an Oscar voter and they think most costumes is best costumes. But obviously this is not the case. When you look through a script, when it comes to costumes, what are the first images that go through your mind, whether it's a period piece or a modern day play?

D (53:46)

You know, I'm not a sketch based designer, so I am very visual. So I have kind of a big selection of images in my head. So when I do an initial read of a script, as a general rule, a lot of images will just start to come into my head and I sort of can't help it. Marcel was different because it actually took me a while to get into the script to figure out the best way to support the storytelling without going too literal. Because it's written with a lot of jump cuts. You know, there's a lot of stuff that happens within a scene. There's time jumps, there's all of these other things. And so it took a while to. For me to be able to winnow the design down to something that could both be manipulated pretty easily by the actors alone, fall within the budgetary restrictions, and actually be something that I was able to produce with the amount of labor help that I had.

A (54:44)

So then for something like this, where you do have to jump around a lot in time, how do you kind of create center for each character? So that way, like, even if we jump through time, we still have, we have an image that roots us in character, but also can be flexible for each time Period that they now have to jump into.

D (55:02)

One of the things that I did with this was I tried to concentrate on what I call the step out moments, which are those time jumps that they'll have when they're not the children on the train, so that I could design myself into the reveal to a certain extent. And so the characterization of the children is very. There's a lot in there that vibes with the thing that they become later when they're adults. So it was about. It kind of. It was really devised. I mean, it was one of those things where I went in, I had a base idea, threw things into rehearsal, they worked with it, and then we would just see what stuck as a general rule, you know, so it was like, for Berthe, like, she's got that, like, sort of anger and all of that. Like, she's sort of got, like, a little bit of, like, a 90s rage. And we end in the 70s with her. And the 70s and the 90s are so connected together. So it's like there's so many things that you can do that sort of. Not sort of that nod to contemporary culture and now, but also rooting it back in 1945, you know, so it's a delicate balance.

A (56:17)

Were these conversations that you and director Marshall had to have a lot of sort of finding that balance and also finding that period aesthetic with a contemporary sensibility. Is that something you talked about a lot?

C (56:28)

We did.

D (56:29)

We did. And a lot of it came down to the fact that Marshall and Ethan, but specifically Marshall, had a very. He had a really clear image in his head and of how the show needed to flow, and he really did his homework. So it was about making sure that I was keeping up with the pacing and the storytelling arc that he was looking for within the framework of the actors basically never leaving stage. So, you know, it's that thing of, like, how do you sell the image of children? But then also know that they're all, you know, like, one's gotta pee in a bucket, One's gotta become a. You know, it's all very. It's just crazy. And, like, we just did it. But it was a lot of. This is my base idea. I put things into rehearsal. The way that our rehearsal schedule went. We had a little workshop, and then we had some weeks of rehearsal where we were in. We rehearsed at the Vineyard, and then we went over to Classic Stage to finish our rehearsal actually on the set. And so what I did, because our rehearsal time was relatively short, I went and I pulled a huge Rack of costumes. And I fit them all the first day of rehearsal basically, and put pieces into the room so that they could start getting used to them and inhabiting them themselves. And so the actors, we. Basically what I do is we hand it back and forth. So it's like, I'll have an idea, I put it into the actor's hands, they play with it a little bit, they hand it back to me and say, I need it to do this. And so we just kind of pass the baton back and forth to each other and yes, and it up so that it's always. I'm like fully integrated into the actors bodies and physicality. So basically what I do is I disappear. Like if I do the shtick that I do, people don't really know that there's costumes, which is a bummer. But also I'm supposed to be blending in with the other designers. So that's what I've done.

A (58:34)

Were there any costumes you can think of with this production that really had that evolution you were talking about that maybe started with a base idea, then over rehearsals and tech really kind of morphed into something different than. Than you anticipated?

C (58:47)

Hmm.

D (58:49)

I feel like not really actually, like in a. In a funny way, this. It was. What we ended up with was kind of what was always in my head as what was going to be possible with the. With the limitations of the budget and crew and so on and so forth. But no, I mean, this is pretty much what I always thought it was going to be. The journey for how the actors can actually manipulate things on stage ended up being something that was a co pro between all of us. But really, for the most part, like, no, I mean, this is what I told Marshall I was going to do. And we had the images for it and we just kept plugging away. So I feel like, because I was putting it into rehearsal from the beginning, we were all moving together. So it stayed pretty seamless, I'd say, as far as like figuring it out.

A (59:40)

Yeah, I mean, that's great to sort of have it fully realized from the start. How in communication are you with the other members of the production team outside of the director, like set designer, sound

D (59:52)

designer, lighting designer, the set design, you know, like, we all met many, many times before rehearsal started. So we had a lot of roundtable discussions discussing concept, the vocabulary that we thought that we needed to maintain for the show. Because we did know that, you know, you can have the Sat Venn diagram, you can have time, money, you know, but like, oftentimes you don't really have any of those. But we did have some advanced time, so we were able to really talk through with Marshall about what his intentions were. And we came up with a vocabulary together, so that once we were actually in tech, we already kind of knew the scope of what we were trying to say. But I would say, for the most part, the set designer, it's hard because their stuff is due so early. So sometimes you're like, oh, I wish that thing could have been different. But they had to make their decisions so far in advance, and there's kind of nothing that you can do. But I think that the set design is actually really. It's an elegant design. And one of the things that's tricky with those kinds of set designs is, is that there's not a lot there. And so the onus of telling the actual story does come onto costumes and lighting, because we're the ones that are actually gonna tell you where you are when you are who they are. You know, we fill the framework. And so I tend to do a lot of sitting with the lighting designer, because if I know, you know, like, I. Once I saw what Brandon was doing, I was like, oh, okay, great. So then this palette does want to stay really, really tight. It does want to be very almost simple. But simple is actually the hardest thing to do. It's really easy just to keep adding stuff. It's very difficult to winnow it down to just the essence. And so I had to trust, and I did trust. As I watched it all starting to happen in tech, I had to trust that Brandon, our lighting designer, was gonna give me the juice to kind of legitimize these ideas, because we needed those washes of color. We needed that emotion that he could bring to it to really round out what the actors were doing and what I was doing, you know? Cause it's like everything needed to stay simple, for lack of a better way to say it. But then the lighting really just brings it all together. So I spend a lot of time with lighting more than anything, because it's like, I'm looking with LED lights. It's different than the incandescent lights that we used to do. I had to learn how to do it for those kinds of lights. So I try to provide texture and depth and things like that to give the light something to do when it hits the costumes, and then we can really play from there.

A (62:49)

Do different kind of lights play off of costumes differently from each other? Yeah. Fascinating. Can you give me examples or. Sure.

D (62:59)

Well, like, I mean, you know, like, if you look at just, like, even, like, your personal self, like, if you're sitting in front of a regular light bulb, not like an LED light bulb, but a regular incandescent light bulb, it has a softer light, the light. And, you know, we don't use those anymore because they get hot and, like, all that other stuff. But the light and the like sort of the. The value of the light is more watercolory, and the LED lights have a much more aggressive feel to them. And they can. They tend to flatten texture. They tend to. They can really change the color of your costumes now. So there's a lot of, like, negotiation and kind of, like, fighting back that will happen where you're like, I know that they're going to hit me with amber light right now. I know that it's going to be really hard. I have to make sure that what they hit is actually has enough heart to be able to still look like something once they hit it with this blast of light. So it's a very. It's a very delicate balance that I think a lot of people don't really notice that we in costumes are doing. But you have to sort of watch how the light hits it and then be like, oh, so it's, you know, like, corduroy looks like leather. Sometimes leather looks like crap. Like, it's like there's really. You know, there's so many things that are, like, within the sort of formula for how to make it happen.

C (64:31)

Wow.

A (64:32)

I'm a theater nerd. I've known a lot about theater my whole life. I did not know that. So I'm learning something here this morning. This is awesome.

D (64:40)

As a general rule, the way that I design is I make closets for everybody. So there is a design, and it's generally quite tight. My palette is really tight, but I always have a rack of. Oh, God.

C (64:53)

For.

D (64:54)

You know, because it. Like the. Basically, it's like when you hit it in tech, you don't really necessarily have a lot of time to make a correction. And so what I like to do is when I'm having fittings with my actors, I fit them in a world of stuff so that they're complicit. So when I come at them with the thing that's totally different, they've had it on in a fitting before. They understand what they look like. They understand how they can move through space in it. And I'm not just handing them this thing that they suddenly have to inhabit it in front of everybody in a relatively stressful situation. So usually I've Got a backup plan already and that I can put into the mix because I'll have started to watch as we're teching along, I'll start to see, oh, that thing that I thought was gonna work may not work. Let's start trying to get ahead of it. But a lot of times, it's like, a lot of times I'll diet. I was a craftsperson. I did all the jobs. So on these off Off Broadway shows, I am my own wife. So I'll do my own alterations and my own dye work and things. So, yeah, so sometimes it just gets dumped in dye, and sometimes it's a whole new thing. I also have an extensive stock, so a lot of times it'll also be me going back to my storage unit and seeing what else there is there. Just to keep the conversation moving.

A (66:13)

Absolutely. Were there any conversations you had with Ethan on his costume for Marcel?

C (66:19)

Absolutely.

A (66:20)

Especially as somebody who's a real historic with a very memorable image. What were some of those conversations about the Marcel costume like?

D (66:29)

Well, you know, I mean, a lot of it is I wanted to make sure that I kept the spirit of Marcel, but also create the space for Ethan to do his own version. Like, we're not trying, and especially, like. And it's something that we discovered during the rehearsal process that it was kind of like, oh, so we're not doing bip. We're doing Ethan's version of bip. So I'm leaning into Ethan's physicality I always wanted. And I'm so happy that it worked out the way that it did. I went to rehearsal, and I saw Ethan rehearsing his big moment at the end, and he was just wearing his own clothes, and he had on a T shirt. And all of a sudden I was like, oh, my God, that's so punk rock and so perfect. And so it, like, shows his physique perfectly. But we also wanted to make sure that he didn't feel too buff because Marcel was a very slim man. And also, you know, we're telling the story that he's in the war, so on and so forth. So it was about knowing that, because I know Ethan, and I know what his body can do. It was an immediate, we're making these trousers because Ethan has never met a pair of trousers that he doesn't try to explode out of. And so we made the trousers so that we knew that no matter what, he was always he had exactly what he needed. And then it was really just about finding the different elements that gave us access to his body. Always Having access to his. His actual body was very important to me. And so that was most of the conversation was just like, again, I found these trousers at Costume Collection. I found a suit actually at Costume Collection that he walked right into. And then I realized immediately I needed to have the trousers made. So we made the trousers based on this vintage pair that I found, and then just sort of went from there and then getting him down to that T shirt, which is my T shirt. It's a very expensive T shirt that looks like a sad T shirt. We got him down to the T shirt and the trousers at the end. And that made me feel really, really happy because it felt really. It felt 70s. It also felt raw. It also felt like Ethan. So I just wanted to give him maximum capacity to be able to just move because he. That's what he needs. You know what I mean? It's like, what he's wearing almost doesn't matter in the end, it's having access for him to fully inhabit everything and make his body do all the things that we need it to do. And it was really fun working with Charlotte to do that makeup element because that's definitely. That's a massive interdepartmental situation because it's living in his back pocket. And, like, it's crazy. And everyone's like, this makeup, and I'm like, I don't care. I can't think about that. I can't think about potentially ruining the costume. We gotta do the thing, and we'll figure it out. We'll figure out the ramifications.

A (69:48)

Absolutely. What kind of. I'm assuming you also have a very fluid, open relationship with the makeup department on shows as well. Right. You know, when you're delivering them your designs, and then they kind of of base their designs off of that, I would assume. Yeah.

D (70:06)

And also, you know, like, Charlotte did the photo shoot for Classic Stage, so she already had an institutional knowledge of knowing, like, kind of, like the vibe that we were going for. But then it really does come down to, like, it's my costume. So as far as, like, the food chain goes, it's making sure that makeup feels like they can get what they need without being stopped by me. So it really. It's that thing of, like, okay, tell me what it is that you need to have happen. Okay, I can work that out. So it's like, we've got all sorts of. There's all sorts of trickery hidden in his costume to be able to facilitate those moments.

A (70:45)

I love that. Well, Sarah, this has been fantastic. Thank you. So much for spending time with us today. I know you've got a very busy schedule ahead of you. Are you allowed to. To tell the listeners what you're currently working on?

D (70:57)

Yes, I'm currently in tech for fear of 13 on Broadway, and it's going well. We're heading into day three, which is always the day where you're like, oh, God, it's happening. Day one is adrenaline. Day two is okay. Day three, you're like, all right, let's settle in. This is gonna be that.

A (71:17)

Yeah, this is real now, for sure. Well, that's very exciting. We're all very excited to see it and very happy for you. So thank you so much for stopping by and giving us your wonderful insight.

B (71:25)

Thank.

A (71:26)

And yeah, we'll check you out with Fear of Thirteen. Awesome.

D (71:31)

Thank you for having me.

A (71:32)

All right, that's going to do it. For this episode of Backstage Pass, I want to thank Lorenzo, Brandon, Jill, and Sarah for their time and wealth of knowledge. I want to thank you all for your listenership, and I want to thank Isaiah for getting this hotly coveted backstage pass today. Tune in for our final episode because Elain. No, not that Elaine. A different Elaine. You wouldn't know this Elaine. She's bicoastal. Elaine got us a backstage pass to meet back up again with producers Mitch Maroi and Maxwell Fear. We got to hang in their office the week after opening night of Marcel on the Train, and we chatted about how this process has gone for them, the things they've learned that we talk about. The reviews for Marcel on the Train and where Marcel goes from here. A resounding ending to a delightful series, I must say. So stay on your toes, and I will get you all backstage with me. Thank you, guys.