B (2:43)

I think one of the biggest things with a production like this too, because I think last time we talked about it being this is an enhanced production. This is classic stages production technically, but because we have this amazing relationship with Jill and the team at Classic Stuff Stage and with Ethan Marshall and the cast and the designers and everybody we were much more hands on than really in the room and really present than I think a lot of commercial producers usually are in a process like this. But with that being said at the end of the day, I think back to from the West Wing, there's the quote, like, let Bartlett be Bartlett. And a lot of what it was was just like, okay, let Marshall. Marshall's got to figure this out. Ethan's got to figure this out. Designers gotta figure this out. We are here to support. We are here to cheer on. We are here to give thoughts when asked and just, like, be the helpful sounding board because it's such a quick process.

C (3:41)

Yeah. Understanding that when you have a thought or an opinion to trust, the collaboration and the collaboration that you've developed over many years so that you might not have to necessarily bring up that thought in that moment because you trust that the director and the writer and the actor are having those thoughts anyway. And so it is a lot of just sitting there and observing and, you know, when they wanna ask your opinion or when you feel like actually this is really important, the more silent you are, the more weight those moments will carry.

B (4:13)

Well, that's also when it's been great too. Like, thank God there's two of us. Thank God there's a Max animation this so that, like, we could make our own eye contact. And when we were both, when I was scared about something or when Max was nervous about something, we could then be like, okay, we've said it out loud. I need to just say this out loud to somebody that I'm concerned about. ABC or xyz. We both know that now is not the time to bring it up. They'll probably figure it out tomorrow in rehearsal or in tech in two days or whatever. But I just need to say it out loud to somebody.

C (4:37)

Process wise, the whole thing was incredibly smooth. Something I feel so proud of on the other side is that we really assembled a team. And we, as you know, Marshall and Jill and us, everyone, the team assembled. There was. There was not a single asshole in the entire team. There was not a bad seed. There was not someone that, you know, caused some toxic rumor to spread that now everyone's wondering, you know, what is my standing in this company? You know, what do people think of me? It was all love and it was all support from day one that was sincere and genuine and that lasted the entire time.

B (5:21)

And I think that also goes to. I was talking to Jill, I was talking to the interim general manager, Heather Shields as well about this, that this is a group that Was all so mission aligned, all the designers, all the associate designers, the whole cast, everybody at classic stage. I think Marshall, as like the captain of the ship set the tone real well. But also Jill too, as the artistic director of, like, this is the goal for the project here. This is why we're doing this. This is what we're gonna make together. And the fact that it's gonna be together and like, everybody's working at scale, you know, everybody. No one here is getting rich off of this right now. So, you know, that can also. That can lead to people being annoyed. That can lead to the long nights being annoyed, you know, all this kind of crap. But they. Because everybody was so mission aligned from the get go, the vibe was just great. Like, it was even when we got scared, even when we got, you know, shit broke down, the damn benches, like, you know, we do a five alarm fire on, like, why aren't the benches coming up and what the hell's going on there? Everybody went into gear. Everybody was entirely game and said yes and. And problems got solved with smiles on faces.

C (6:36)

Yeah. The biggest hurdle that we had was probably set issue. We were using a little bit of automation in our show with the, you know, making a train car appear out of seemingly nowhere. And, you know, we realized after our first day of tech rehearsal that the mechanics we were using were not going to work. And that was a real hurdle and a real challenge. And instead of, you know, freaking out, instead of tensions rising, we all sat down and we figured out, how do we solve this five alarm fire? Because it was also an issue of safety. And we had to trust that our set was going to be the safest possible for our actors, for our crew. And we knew we had a dress rehearsal coming up in six days, so we had very limited amount of time. There was a moment where we thought, will we have to cancel our dress rehearsal and our first preview? But what happens is theater people are generally amazing people and treat each other so well. And we had another scene shop that does Broadway level shows come in and look at this off Broadway level set and say, hey, what you guys are doing isn't far off from the correct thing. If you just tweak this here, tweak this here, we can make this happen. But we need to see what's in our supply on Monday when the shop opens, in order to give you an accurate read of when we will be able to solve the problem. So There was a 48 hour window during our tech rehearsal.

B (8:10)

We were like, this could be a very simple fix or this could be $100,000.

C (8:15)

Or this could be us canceling our first week of previews and losing, you know, days and days of audience response before critics come.

B (8:24)

But also, that, like, solution goes back to Williamstown, because we did a workshop at Williamstown in 2024. And Stephen Kauss of Williamstown and now Hudson Scenic, he had been there for the workshops there. He knew the show like the theater people, family. There's only five people that work in the damn industry, honestly, at the end of the day. And he was willing to step in with his team and his guys and look at what's possible and recognizing what we were trying to do here under the nonprofit agents and all this jazz to, like, make it freaking happen. And that is, like, why we're here today. People stepped up to the plate and believed in the mission. And Marshall did handle all of that so fucking well. Like, yeah, I think one of the things that I'm most impressed by in this whole process was, you know, when something like that occurs, I don't know that I've ever seen a director be as calm, be as, like, welcoming to suggestion, be as, like, open and honest. And, like, I've seen directors flip tables. I've seen direct. You know, we've all seen directors. We've all seen people. Artistic directors. We've all seen people behave in ways that no one should, especially when you're the leader. And the way Marshall handled that was, like, fucking incredible.

C (9:38)

A masterclass. Yeah.

B (9:39)

Truly a master class. Yeah. Sorry we talked all of this when you're podcast, dude. Sorry.

C (9:43)

No, we're just going through our experience.

B (9:45)

I'm realizing that we've just been, like, going and going.

C (9:47)

But there was a moment. 3.

B (9:49)

This is also.

A (9:50)

This is where video would have been helpful so everyone can know what my face just looked like when you said that. No, this isn't interview scene series. And we're doing the interview part reflecting. Yes. If anything, I wish more of my guests, when I do my deep dives and shit, like, talk like this, because there are times when I'm like, so, yeah, that thing. And they'll go. I'm like, would you talk? Yeah. Would you like to add on to it, Please. There's an and to the yes.

C (10:14)

So you were gonna say yes, like, three Mondays ago. I'm standing in our kitchen, and we do not know if we'll be able to have our first preview. And we're minutes away from Hudson Scenic Shop opening and letting us know, do they have the materials in stock? And we look at our phones and we go, oh, my goodness, they have it. You know, they've got the clamps that we need. Hell, yes, the show can go forward. There is, you know, having now gone through the experience of waiting for reviews to come out, waiting for the set to be fixed, waiting to, you know, hear what audiences will think after seeing the show for the first time. And we realized while the audience is in the seats that this was the first time an audience had ever experienced the show without stage directions also being read.

B (11:06)

Yeah, that first. So, yeah, that invited tech. That invited dress, rather was like, yeah, the first time humans had seen it without it being, like, under fluorescent lights

C (11:14)

and without it being like, Vietnam 20 years later, you know, where you have to be like, oh, maybe our storytelling isn't as clear when you're just getting visual cues. Maybe we need something else to help the audience. And that's where a lot of the work during preview started to begin.

B (11:31)

Of.

C (11:32)

All right, where can we clarify? Where can we strengthen and beef up? But also, where can we. You know, we had to cut. When we first started running the show, we were running at about 1:53, and now we're running at 139. Between 137 and 139. Consistent.

B (11:47)

Yeah, they got 12 minutes from the show from preview one to when they froze it a week and a half later. Yeah, I think it was a week and a half of, like, working.

C (11:57)

And when we.

B (11:58)

Which is fucking insane.

C (12:00)

Our writers are also, you know, director and actors, so they didn't have until the day off to really sit down with the script and go, let's fix this. Like, we all knew during that first week of, oh, this moment can be tightened. We love these beats. How do we maybe make these four

B (12:16)

beats into two beats or three beats?

C (12:18)

You know, those classic fun puzzle questions, which is why everyone got into making theater in the first place. And, you know, through enough of those conversations, we were able to get the show to a runtime that we felt was exactly what we promised audiences on the website.

B (12:33)

Yeah.

A (12:33)

I mean, 15 minutes in two weeks is impressive. There are Broadway shows that shave off five minutes in a month.

B (12:38)

Yeah. Truly.

A (12:39)

Yeah. I'm always down for tighter, faster.

B (12:42)

You know me. What was the thing that we said? Was it. It was like, smarter, faster, sadder, something. Yeah, we were like, yeah, that's the. That's what we're doing.

A (12:53)

I just like tighter and meaner. That is how I view all three processes. Make it tighter and meaner.

C (12:59)

I can keep going of just, like, the things that we discovered throughout the

A (13:02)

Previews, whatever you want to talk about. Max, this is your interview, baby.

B (13:07)

And I think we will get to

A (13:09)

opening night and all that other stuff.

B (13:11)

I think the bit like the process from, like, you know, we talked about tech. The process, though, from, you know, once Preview started, the collaboration between us and Jill Raphson and Heather Shields, the interim gm, right now at Classic Stage, the four of us in lockstep on. Okay, what are the, you know, on the GM front? The kinds of things that need to be built, things that need to be fixed, things that need to be adjusted. Cool, cool, cool. Also, Heather has a brilliant creative mind, so her input there. Jill, as artistic director. Our group chat with the three of us, me, Max and Jill are just like, yo, I think this. You think that. Cool. We're aligned here. If. If I maybe felt something different, but they feel something great. Cool. Two out of three. Let's go. And when to talk about certain things with.

C (14:02)

With the creatives.

B (14:03)

With the creatives, yeah. When to. Because also, they. It gets, like Max said, the trust of it all. Of, like, we.

A (14:10)

They.

B (14:11)

They figured a lot of this out without us ever having to say a damn word. Because these are growing artists at the top of their game, and if you give them the, you know, ability to make cool shit, they will make cool shit, and they will come up with solutions, and they will come up with these things.

A (14:25)

And so.

B (14:25)

But then figuring out when. Yeah, we've been sitting silent here. When is it? When have we earned the right to say, like, okay, this part of the thing, we're all really concerned about that. Or, this isn't landing. We know what your intention is here. It's not landing the way you think it is for us or for audience. We need to have a conversation about that. And that was most. That was a lot of the preview process, watching them figure stuff out and then stepping in.

C (14:48)

We knew we had to land the opening of our show. We knew and tonally, especially because it is a very tricky, you know, World War II piece, using a lot of Jewish joy and levity to withstand these situations, which I think is very intrinsic to the Jewish experience. But, you know, in play form, when audiences have been conditioned over many, many, many decades to go, we are seeing Holocaust play. It is heavy. It is deep. We had to really work on that first scene. But in establishing that tone and spending time. Time on that and, you know, the other cuts that went around that we also realized, like, oh, we're not spending as much time paying attention to our ending as we maybe needed to. And so A lot of this second week of previews became, we need to clarify our ending, how our audience is going to take away the central message that we're trying to say. And I think there were, you know, conversations about, oh, are they understanding. Understanding our rather heady concept? Does the audience even need to understand our rather heady concept to understand the emotional core of the story which we all agreed upon was, you know, the. The ways that people help us through difficult times, even when we may not realize it in the moment, you know, when they're trying to help us. But those lessons throughout time, how those stay with us and how those help us get through the difficult situations. And so trying to distill that central information, that central message, while not, you know, making the show feel like, all right, we've ended once, now we've ended twice, now we've ended a third time. How do we make all of these endings into one cohesive thing? And I think what we landed on is really effective in sort of trying to get the best version of what we were able to do in the time constraint that we have. But it was also one of those things of, great, this is perfect for now. And we can't wait to figure out what is the next version of this. But it's still giving us. Getting us the reaction from the audience that we desired. But there was a lot of, like, the show ends. The audience isn't applauded. Why isn't the audience applauding? How do we teach the audience to applaud? We're ending the show on a sound effect of a ding. Do we need to end it on a musical note? That is the tonic, you know, so the audience feels a sense of resolve. Oh, by closing the doors at the back of the stage, are we making the audience feel, oh, we've traveled too far to a new location now. You know, I feel like we're starting something new rather than wrapping up where we've already been. So it was all these psychological games we were playing to figure out how do we stick the ending of our show? And I think what we have on that stage is something we're really proud of. That was a long rant, but, well,

A (17:47)

you guys have been through a lot, and you have a lot of things to say. It's all been built up in here. So this is your. This is your avenue. So opening happened. Reviews have come out.

B (17:57)

Yeah.

A (17:58)

Talking about the critical reception, how you guys feel, and then where we go from here.

B (18:04)

Yeah. I think the reception has been positive, has been, I would say, vast. Majority positive. There are people that don't get the artistic swing that this is. You know, people. The, like, fundamental DNA of the show of, like, we have these adults playing the children. There are certain things that, like, a couple. Not down for. Some of what we're doing in here. Some of the. Like, the way that the really specifically Jewish humor is woven in. If you're not down for that, then, like, yeah, you're not gonna like the show. And, like, that's okay. We. We met yesterday with Ethan and Marshall, and that was one of the first things I said to them, was like, reading all of these reminded me or was just, like, a good thing of, like, okay, the thick skin of this kind of industry where people won't necessarily understand what we're doing because this is a big artistic swing. This is somewhat nonlinear. This is. We are asking an audience to really buckle up and join us on a very specific artistic capital T. Theater with an re ride. And if you're down, hell, yeah. If you're not down, oh, the show's not for you. And, like, that's okay. That is 100% okay. But what we've all been saying this entire time for the last few years over developing it, too, is that the majority of audiences will be down for the ride. And I think that actually manifests itself in the reviews. The vast majority of the reviews, even when it's, you know, a mixed, positive review, there's notes of, like, okay, we. You know, there's useful things about, like, okay, clarifying Marcel's arc or, you know, tone. Things that, yeah, we are excited to, you know, cool look at. And also, you know, they had two weeks of tech and. Or one week of tech and two weeks of preview, so they just need to, like, settle into their show and figure out what the tone is. Still. There's a lot of stuff like that that I'm excited for the cast to explore over the next month of the run. But the vast majority of the reviews were either like, wow, I totally get what you're doing here. This is giving me the kind of joy that I was hoping for. This is giving me. I got the tension of this scene, and I got all of that, or, ooh, not for me. The majority. The minority of reviews that were like, ah, this is. I. I don't like the. I don't like this kind of thing in a lot of ways. Yeah, it was, like, actually, I thought, validating.

C (20:25)

Yeah, there seemed to be a little bit of, like, not an education problem, but it was just like, all right, you're not picking up what we're putting down. And we had some of our mentors come during previews, and, you know, it was something we knew we were taking a big artistic swing. And it was something that, throughout the preview process that I was very nervous and aware of. This won't be everyone's thing, and maybe critics will respond to that. And I think some of them certainly did. And others, you know, are looking for. I. You know, a common occurrence has been, you know, by using flash forwards, you know, we're diffusing the tension of do the kids live or do the kids die? And, you know, that's something that artistically we fundamentally disagree in, because just because you see one flash forward doesn't necessarily mean that they all live. And also, you know, just because we're using humor, which we know works in other mediums, like JoJo Rabbit, you know, doesn't mean that it doesn't work in this context. Just because it maybe didn't resonate with that, you know, with that critic. I also. I think it's a special torture that I wish on my enemies in the house. Like classic stage, where as a producer, you're able to see every face in that theater if you look around the house while you're sitting in there. And so we had the experience. Experience of watching critics very visibly watch our show and, you know, have their thoughts. And that's a. That's an exercise in restraint and in believing in your show. And the mentor said, like, this is a swing. This won't be for everyone. And hearing a mentor say that was unbelievably comforting because I don't know about you, Matt, we grew up, like, loving musicals, loving a lot of, you know, down the middle, you know, something that's commercial, something that does appeal to the masses. And to be part of making something that may not be that. That may be a bigger swing is incredibly vulnerable and is incredibly scary. And because this is the first time, it feels a lot bigger than maybe the second or third or fourth time will feel. But overall, like, net positive. Do we wish, you know, we got, like, in full blatant terms, do we wish there was a critics pick that said, go to Broadway, the doors are open, pick any house you want? Sure, that would make our lives easier. But also.

B (23:04)

But also, would it even that's true? No, because actually, would it?

A (23:07)

No.

B (23:07)

You still have to know.

A (23:09)

I think the elephant in the room with that is a New York Times critics pick, doesn't do shit anymore because you have to see who's writing for the.

B (23:16)

Them. Well, I don't know that I agree with that necessarily.

A (23:20)

I think for Off Broadway, it can help, but you look at the last couple of critics picks that closed on Broadway within like, a month or two. That's what I mean. Because of how frequently it's been thrown about. There have been plenty of shows that have found Broadway success without a critics pick, as well as shows that haven't had success with it. So I hear you about that. What I want to ask you guys, and going to ask this to everyone else involved in the other episodes. In regards to reviews, when you're reading a criticism, how do you differentiate between this doesn't really apply to us. They don't get it, or oh, that's actually a really good point. And, like, we should. We should internalize this for later.

B (24:01)

Ooh. I think there were some reviews that, like, if there was, I can think of two reviews that had truly nothing that they could find, that they actually dug in the show that they actually liked in it. And to me, that's just like, oh, cool. Put that aside. To me, that's like, that's a.

C (24:18)

That's a.

A (24:19)

We're not for you.

B (24:19)

Yeah, we're not for you. And, like, that's okay. There's not a ton to learn from that. If you can't find anything that you liked in it, that's nothing really to do. Then there are some reviews that. The reviews that are just, like, all laudatory and all everything. I also kind of put that aside. Like, that's great for marketing. That's great for pull quotes. That's like, there's nothing to learn from that so much besides, like, oh, it worked for you. And, like, that's really cool. This. We maybe got, like, we got a couple reviews where they were positive. And then like, talking about, like, Marcel's arc could be clearer. Some things like that to take away from it. But then there are some reviews that are just like, you're giving me a book report, and you're not really giving me an actual opinion. You're not really giving me anything to grow with. You're just kind of saying things, and maybe you're just kind of cynical.

C (25:04)

Yeah. What you really start to pick up on are, who are the critics that want us to succeed. Even though you didn't love the show, you know, you can still write about it as if you want it to succeed and offer insights that are valuable to the creative process going forward. And I think, you know, we're discerning people that mostly got liberal arts Educations that work in the arts that, like, I think you can read a review and pick up on, you know, who is rooting for you and who just could give less of a crap and the people who don't care. Great. Amazing. Not for you. No resentment.

B (25:40)

But, Matt, I think because, like, you, you write a lot of reviews. Like us as producers, coming from, like, you know. Yeah, my favorite reviews are the ones where, like, you take. The reviewer, takes the time to give genuine, honest feedback. Genuine, honest critique, free of cynicism. I mean, you've made a. You started making a name for yourself with your reviews. And you're famous for a snarky quip when we say that that's kind of stuff that we like to see. How does that resonate with, like, the way you go into writing a review that. Okay, I'm interested.

A (26:18)

Snarky is a trigger word for me. No, just because that's, like, the word that a lot of people have used against me in the past. I've never actually thought of myself as snarky. I can be a bitch sometimes if I see a show that I thought wasted my time. There have been shows that I thought were bad.

C (26:35)

That's the difference.

A (26:36)

Yeah, there have been shows that I thought were bad, but I'm not an asshole about it because I'm like, you know what? You tried something. I think you didn't do a good job with it. But, like, you know, better than doubt.

B (26:45)

Everyone here is trying.

A (26:46)

Yeah, exactly. It's usually only after the fact that I'll get a little bitchier. I've said this before. I tried to be very fair to a show like Lempicka that I did not think worked. The creative team's response to the critical reception after that made me a bigger bitch about it because I was like, fuck you guys for that happening. So true. Yeah. I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Now I'm gonna be me. I thought that something like Back to the Future was a perfectly adequately made show, but because I thought it was so lazy, I got mad and thus I was asshole about it. So that's me when it comes to. But I go into every show I see because I don't think of myself as a critic. I think of myself as a fan and as somebody.

B (27:26)

I think that's the difference.

A (27:27)

Yeah, well, and also, like, I've worked on shows, I've been in shows I'm still working on and being in shows sometimes. So, like, I don't look at this as I'm a failed actor, writer, director, who's doing this because he can't do anything else. I'm still getting work in that field, and I don't want to piss anybody off, but. But I also want to be honest. So I go in and I try to think, what is it that they're trying to achieve? Is that clear to me? Do I think they succeed at that? That's the first question. Then did I like it? Second, because then sometimes there are shows that I think aren't really that successful, but somehow they worked for me and I make that differentiation. Or shows where I'm like, usually it's plays more than musicals from, like, they did what they set out to do. Not for me, though. And that is sort of, I think, the difference between. For a lot of critics, like, if I. Let's say I saw Marcel, because I still haven't seen it yet, because you guys are very well sold. If I were to see it and I were to go this. They figured out what they want, it works. It's not my kind of Holocaust show. Because that's the other thing is everyone has their view of what a Holocaust story should be. For some people, it's zone of interest. For some people, it's life is beautiful and there's no in between. And so if I were to write that review, I would write it in that way that you would say, like, it would say, not for me, but I would explain all the ways in which the success loads what it does, and hopefully that would be helpful for you guys. If I were to see something that I thought didn't work, I would explain all the ways why I think it doesn't work and then sometimes offer reasons. I have a review on the podcast for Boop, where I literally, like, go down in a bullet list of, like, all the ways in which I personally would fix Boop.

B (28:58)

Yeah, yeah.

A (29:00)

Smash to. But that's what I like.

B (29:02)

Those are our favorite reviews. As a producer for anyone's show, that's what I want to see. Like, as an industry, we all, I'll be honest, like, industry wise. Like, whenever we're texting folks or seeing folks out, like, when a review comes out that is particularly cynical against a project, it, like, all we then sit and say is, like, this just isn't good for us as an industry. Like, if you. If we as an industry and if our critics can't, like, at least go in rooting for a project in the same way that, like, we have auditions today for a different show. And casting directors always say, like, every actor that goes in for that audition, they are rooting for you to succeed. I go into a show rooting for it to succeed.

A (29:47)

Yeah.

B (29:47)

And I don't know that every critic that we've got goes into projects rooting for them to succeed. But that's also, like, neither here nor there.

A (29:53)

Yeah, I think that's always been the case. I think that's especially the case now because things get more traction when they're negative. You see that on TikTok. You see that on YouTube. Like, all the YouTube video essays, the ones that are more popular, the ones are, like, the 30 reasons why Bridgerton is awful. Like, it's that kind of stuff, rather. Rather than, like, the 10 reasons why Bridgerton works. So I feel that to my bones. But also. Yeah, I mean, I. When I'm talking about a show and also, like, people can give or take whatever I say, but as somebody who also writes, I'm like, no, by all means. Like, come up with an idea for me, please. I'm exhausted. Like, give me something. I may not agree with it, but it might inspire a different idea.

B (30:32)

Exactly.

C (30:32)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (30:33)

That's what. Yeah. But something actually, you said that is, I think, actually really interesting for where we're at right now with this one, that the show is really well sold. Like, as I said here, there are, you know, like, a couple dozen tickets. Yeah, that's it. And that's really exciting. And so from, like, the Classic Stage perspective, this is a smash hit. This is, you know, box office doing incredibly well. Everything that this show needs to do for the nonprofit is doing it. And now as Max and I and the rest of the team, but, like, you know, Max and I, the kind of the leaders, whatever the hell comes next. I see this next month of run as we're establishing the brand so that audiences can start understanding what the hell this is. Now we have pull quotes. We have ways to educate an audience that we didn't have before and to educate the industry on a broader sense, too. People know about the show, and we're very lucky and grateful for that. But a lot of people don't still. And so how do we start using this time that's left? Because it doesn't have to be used for selling tickets at Classic Stage, which is kind of cool of like, what are we putting out there? What is the messaging that is going out there to establish and build a base brand here for whatever we can build as a mix?

C (31:48)

And we also acknowledge it's. You know, we have less than a month of a run left. You know, we Close in less than a month. So we really like getting people in. Trying to establish this brand is a sprint. Like, I know we just got to open Ignite, but something I'm starting to realize also, because we're at the show most nights, especially during previews, we'll be there every night. And even when you're not expecting to see someone, is exactly the moment that you'll see a very important person there that, you know, you have to turn it on and you have to talk to them and you thank them for coming to the show, and you want to get their thoughts and all of that. You know, we had a co producer come to the show. You know, just kind of buy themselves a ticket and come in one afternoon and thank God one of us was there so we could say, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for your support. So even though, you know, the hard part of getting the show up and running is done, now it's about the planting the seeds for the next step, which is a very active role for us.

B (32:48)

Yeah, yeah, we're starting. Yeah. So, like, as we sit here from a business perspective, last week, we met again with the commercial general manager that we brought on as, like, most, they helped negotiate the contract around, you know, us working with classic stage and stuff. And we said, okay, cool. Now we need to really start figuring out, could this be what would this look like on Broadway? And start putting around the. Start figuring out what the parameters around that would be. And the first thing that you have to do with them is launch into a first class deal. And when we say first class, that is a Broadway deal. First class is used also, like, for all of your actor listeners, they'll recognize that, too, as, like, you know, what is the first class tour versus a second class tour? You know, the first national tour of a Broadway show will be a first class production as well. Broadway is first class. What we're doing. You know, if you're doing a commercial off Broadway, that would be, you know, second class. You know, the third year of your national tour could be going second class in terms of the size of the theaters, in terms of the time.

A (33:51)

Yeah. The length of the run at each theater.

B (33:53)

Yeah, yeah. All that jazz. But, like, now. So we're in this, like, developmental agreement with our general manager, which is great. But now we want to, like, start building and seeing what could be possible. So great. First thing we got to do is enter a first class agreement. And the first thing we said to them was, like, we've. I've never signed A first class agreement with a general manager. So. And thankfully, these general managers are really awesome and they're like, cool, we hear you. Here's what this looks like. Here's how you know what this would mean. They're willing to meet us with the funding of it and the paying of all that. But it's spend the next six to eight weeks of, okay, what are the different scenarios? How could this work? How long a run would it need to be in order for investors to make some money back and all that? Chapter, try to figure it out and try to meet with the theater owners. A lot of them have already come to see the show, which is exciting. They're buying their tickets still, which is exciting. And see if there's a, if there's a home here in New York. Explore London too, you know, see who we can get in to see the show this month. But we'll also have the archival and all those things and put together some numbers based off of what a London. Whether it's here, you know, at a place like, you know, the Chocolate Factory or, you know, West End run or things like that so that we can have those educated conversations about like, okay, maybe it's not Broadway first, maybe it is a London run as a next step. But spend a lot of time and a lot of work building all of this out so that as you know, you have all of these meetings and you see what strikes school first, you're ready to just like, boom, activate it and go.

C (35:31)

But that's the next six weeks. Yeah, like that. It's a very active six weeks.

B (35:35)

Six, eight. I mean like that's the next like three months. Yeah, just like figured. Like, I feel like by the time we get to like end of May, early June, I will have a sense of like what feels like the feasible next step. Maybe not like concrete exactly what it is, but like, I feel like a couple of doors will have shut, maybe some new ones will have opened. Like, we haven't three months of just like fact finding, gathering everything and just like making sure we're prepared for all of the options that are out there.

A (36:09)

So you would say then the rest of this off Broadway run is about getting in as many people into the show as possible, collecting as much data as possible. So after the fact you can do an examination and get, as you said, get those pieces of together and figure out by end of May, early June, the next phase.

B (36:26)

Yeah, well, I would argue, I would argue it's not about, it's about getting the people in now, but doing all of that while they're coming in too.

A (36:33)

Sure.

B (36:33)

It's really building the plane while you're flying it. Because shows oftentimes wait too long. That is something we see all the time. More so with, like, out of town tryouts of shows where, like, the show will, like, do their out of town and then, like, it ends and they're like, okay, great, what now? And we don't want to fall into that trap. You know, we took a big swing by having the world premiere of this off Broadway. And, you know, there's only a few upwardly mobile ways to move the show, but there are a lot of, like, lateral or downward ways to move the show. So, you know. Yeah. Figuring it out. Yeah.

A (37:10)

Is there anybody else on at the table with you guys with these discussions, decisions, while I see you think about the next steps?

C (37:16)

Is it.

A (37:17)

Is it mostly you, too?

B (37:18)

Well, we're the lead producers on this, Max and I Mix and match productions. As of right now, we're the only lead producers on this show. Would we love to share the burden, to share the heavy weight of the crown with somebody potentially? As long as, like, we're all artistically aligned and aligned also commercially on what this could be like. We see this as a toolbox of a show. We see this as probably a limited engagement. You know, we see it as a

C (37:44)

solution to the theater owner's problem. I have the fall. I have a show booked in the spring, but I don't have anything in the fall. What can I find for 20 weeks in this theater? And because we've developed this show pretty cheaply, like, we have the ability to insert for those 16 to 20 weeks and create a business plan. Plan that can recoup and that is feasible. So we're really excited about that. But that also means anything we do next can't be, you know, at the expense of our development costs, because that's going to make it that. That other step that much harder.

B (38:22)

We have the potential to come out of this with between 5 and 600k encumbered on the show. And when I say encumbered, I mean like from the team time that, like, Max and I first optioned this piece four years ago to getting through the closing of this world premiere, there will have been, you know, 500 to $600,000

C (38:44)

spent, which is on the low end for shows, I think.

B (38:48)

Yeah, that is incredibly low. You know, there are, you know, some musicals come into Broadway with four and a half million dollars encumbered on them. Even new plays, one to two. Yeah, sometimes, you know, if they're starting, you know, fully commercial at like, you know, La Jolla or something like that. No. We were very lucky in the deal that we were able to get with Classic Stage to make it happen. And again, it comes to that mission alignment of like, no, you guys, we have a play out about a mime in the Holocaust. This. We. This needs to be built cheaply and our team artistically, excitingly, within a very confined sandbox. That's the kind of artistic swing that this needs to be. Not throw, you know, 10 million fucking dollars at it, at this, you know, version at this level of it and, you know, turn it into something massive.

A (39:38)

Julie Taymor found dead. No, I love that. That's fantastic. Do you guys have any closing statements? Because this will be, I think, the final episode of this series. So. Yeah, I mean, no pressure, but whatever you say is how everyone's gonna feel about the show forever and ever and ever and will also be a statement on your legacy, specifically.

C (39:59)

Yeah.

B (39:59)

Good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good.

C (40:02)

I like the one thing that comes to my head is just how frickin proud I am of the entire company and of the show and that as a team, we all took an artistic swing. And based on what I feel and the feedback that we've heard, it is a swing. That is one cohesive vision. From the directors, from to the producers, to the designers, to the writers, to the performers, we are telling one story and we're having a freaking blast. And how lucky are we?

B (40:33)

Yeah. If nothing else, like, we've had this moment in the woods.

C (40:41)

Yeah.

B (40:42)

Max and I and this entire team. You know, I feel in my bones that this deserves to be seen on a bigger stage by more people. I feel like the story is important and the art that we're making is important. There's so much out of our control when it comes to making that a thing. I'm so excited to do the work to try to make that happen. The reality, though, is, like, it is more likely than not that it won't. Shows try to get to Broadway every day. And if we are able to make this a Broadway play, it will be not just a small miracle, but a major miracle. Any show that gets to that stage, it is a miracle.

C (41:31)

So many things had to happen.

B (41:32)

So many things had to happen. So many people had to believe. So many doors have to be opened at the exact right time. It's the shirt, right? Like, it has to be that.

A (41:43)

That's meant to be everyone, in case you didn't know.

C (41:46)

Yes.

B (41:48)

If we are lucky enough to have that happen, Great. If. If it's not in the cards, then this was the best moment in the woods. Yeah. Like, this is been. It's been fucking magical. I'm so incredibly proud of Max and I. I am so incredibly proud of this creative team. And if this is it, if this. If, you know, we do all this work and we close at the end of March and beyond that, the work Max and I do to try to make something happen doesn't succeed, the way that we sit here and are dreaming about, then the thing that's coolest to me is that the artistic relationship, relationships that we're walking away from this. I have no doubt that every single designer on this team, the associate designers, Classic Stage Team Marshall, like, all of us, we're all going to keep working together. And that you can't say on every project that, like, again, this is, like, truly a small miracle of a thing where, like, oh, we all actually like each other. We all respect each other, and everybody here is a brilliant fucking artist, and we're excited for what could come next. Whether it's this or whatever. Like, that, to me, is one of the biggest victories out of all of us.

C (42:57)

To. Yes. And Yoruba. Share it. I would also say Dianu. You know, like Dainu. It would have been enough, you know, at every step. Dainu.

B (43:05)

Yeah. Yeah.

A (43:08)

Well, I don't have anything snarky to say.

C (43:12)

I guess it's hard to follow that

A (43:16)

I had something and then you guys kept talking, and so I was like, well, I won't go back to my. My quip. We'll leave it at that. So thank you.

B (43:24)

Leave it a blessing. Leave it on a blessing. Thank you, Mitch.

A (43:26)

Thank you, Max. Everybody. This has been a really exciting series on the podcast, and I hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did. And, yeah, we look forward to having more of these and hearing more about Marcel on the train, as well as more from Mix and Match Productions.

C (43:42)

So, yeah, you know what?

A (43:45)

Even though this is a different kind of series, I think we will close out the whole thing as we normally do on Broadway. Breakdown, which is you close out with a nice, big Broadway diva to play out in your outro. Max, Mitch, think.

B (43:59)

Who.

A (43:59)

Who would be a nice Broadway diva?

C (44:01)

Mitch and I have a deep and strong love of Shoshana B. So if there is, even if it's, you know, maybe it starts with me from Mist, Saturday night or any other,

A (44:14)

I think we can do better than Mr. Saturday Night.

B (44:17)

Well, can I give you a. Can I give You a quick epilogue about Mr. Saturday Night.

A (44:20)

Sure. There we go.

B (44:24)

When it came time. So we, you know, Max and I, we have Mix and Match Productions. We also help run the office of Ruth and Stephen Hendel. When it came time to vote for the Tonys that year, when Shoshana was Finally nominated for Mr. Saturday Night, it's an online portal to vote for the Tonys, and we were doing it together, and it came time to vote for her category. And, you know, we talk because Ruth sees everything. You have to see everything as a Tony voter. Some Tony voters don't. Ruth really is so fucking good about that. And we go with her, and we have really honest discussions about everything there and who it should be, et cetera, et cetera. When it came to her category, Ruth had some opinion, she'd had some thoughts, and I was like, ruth Hendel, I've been working with you for X amount of years. By now, Shoshana Bean is finally nominated for a goddamn Tony Award. And if you do not let me sit here at this computer and click her name and press submit, I don't know if I can continue working for you.

A (45:16)

This is a seminal moment in my

B (45:18)

life, and we have to be a part of this for her. And I gave her. I monologued at her, and she's like, okay, fine, vote for her.

A (45:25)

Yeah, she also was lovely in the show. I'm just trying to think of, like, a song for Shoshana that's a little more Shoshana than Saturday Night. Bless the Lord, my soul from that God spell.

C (45:38)

I don't know.

A (45:40)

Let me see who I know from Lost Boys who can send me a boot from her.

B (45:46)

Oh, yeah, she's gonna have some nice songs in that, actually. I hope so.

A (45:49)

Great. Fantastic.

C (45:50)

No, I. I'm.

A (45:51)

I'm.

C (45:51)

I'll.

A (45:52)

Well, we got. We got Shoshana. Yeah.

C (45:54)

If you've got a concert version of her, I can do better than that with jr. That's it. Like, that hits so hard. It's really quite.

B (46:04)

Yeah, I'm sure we have a bootleg of that somewhere. We do. We do.

A (46:07)

Everyone's got a bootleg of her singing that song somewhere. Okay, so we'll close out with a shoshana, most likely JRB, but probably not Mr. Saturday Night. But I digress. I digress. All right, so take it away, Shosh. We'll see you later.

B (46:18)

Bye.

A (46:19)

All right, that is it for the. This first season of Backstage Pass. I want to thank Mitch and Max and Jill Raffson and Ethan and Marshall. Plus Lorenzo, Brandon, Jill, and Sarah for their time and their insight. I want to thank all of you for tuning in today and throughout the whole series. And I want to thank our friends Paola and Fred and Beatrice, Isaiah and of course, Elaine for getting us these super exclusive backstage passes today. We'll be doing more of these in the future, do not worry. But in the meanwhile, meantime, we're gonna continue with some more tradish breakdown episodes, reviews, Tony awards coverage, some more deep dives and a Q and A coming up. So, yeah, stay tuned. Thanks, guys. We'll see you soon. By. Lord, I know

B (47:20)

my soul.

A (47:21)

Bless the lord.