Deep Dive: CABARET (Part 1) w/ Tom Pecinka

Summary

Broadway Breakdown: Deep Dive – CABARET (Part 1) w/ Tom Pecinka
Host: Matt Koplik | Date: February 5, 2026
Guest: Tom Pecinka (Tony-nominated for Stereophonic)

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Episode Overview

In the first part of a deep dive into the iconic musical Cabaret, Matt Koplik welcomes actor Tom Pecinka for a passionate, expletive-laced exploration of the show’s origins, themes, and production history. Using their own backgrounds and viewing experiences as a jumping-off point, Matt and Tom dissect the show’s legacy, evolving interpretations, and acting challenges—especially focusing on the roles of Sally Bowles, the Emcee, and Cliff Bradshaw.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Introductions & First Encounters with Cabaret

• Both Matt (a self-proclaimed theater gay from NYC) and Tom (born and raised on Long Island) share how Cabaret entered their lives:
  • Tom was aware of Cabaret during Alan Cumming's first run but only saw the show in-person with the recent revival starring Eddie Redmayne and Gayle Rankin.

    “I like the dark musicals. I like the gritty stuff. So for me, that was my viewpoint on it.” – Tom [03:53]

  • Matt saw the original Sam Mendes/Rob Marshall production as a child, reflecting on seeing Brooke Shields as Sally Bowles and the decadent novelty of ordering chocolate-covered strawberries at the theater.

    “I was that bougie bitch even then, Tom.” – Matt [10:05]

2. Cabaret’s Enduring Allure, Star Casting, and Major Revivals

• Tom recalls working with multiple actors who played "Cliff," and they discuss Broadway’s penchant for rotating celebrities into the Emcee and Sally roles (e.g., Alan Cumming, Michelle Williams).
  • The pair reflect on the show's ability to attract major star power and the way this can tilt the show's focus towards the MC.

3. Synopsis & Key Themes of Cabaret

• Matt delivers a cheeky, condensed synopsis, emphasizing the show's historic context: Weimar Berlin, the rise of Nazism, sexual openness, and the “concept musical” structure.

  “Cabaret takes place from 1929 to 1930... Berlin is transitioning from a center of underground avant garde cultural epicenter to the rise of the Nazi Party. Fun stuff.” – Matt [15:02]

• They debate Sally Bowles’ talent and how her perceived abilities radically alter the tone and status of the Kit Kat Club.

  “If she’s really talented, then this club is a place where people go to see entertainment. If she’s not, then... it’s just a basement garbage place where people just go to get drunk and have sex.” – Tom [18:23]

4. Origins: Book, Play, and Real-Life Inspirations

• Matt contextualizes Cabaret's evolution: from Christopher Isherwood's Goodbye to Berlin, to I Am a Camera, to stage musical (via Joe Masteroff, Kander & Ebb, and Hal Prince).
• Sally Bowles’ real-life counterpart resented her depiction as a tragic party girl. The discussion turns to how various productions and critics wrestle with Sally’s ambiguous abilities and persona.

5. Performance Lineage: Liza Minnelli, Natasha Richardson, and the Changing Sally

• Fascinating trivia: Cabaret's score was originally tailored for Liza Minnelli, fresh from her Tony win in Flora the Red Menace.
• Hal Prince ultimately passed on her for the original stage production, feeling she was “too good” a singer, leading the writers to create a less vocally powerful Sally.

  “He also thought that she was too good of a singer, and he wanted someone who was a bit shakier...” – Matt [32:14]

• The evolution from Liza’s powerhouse film Sally to Natasha Richardson’s raw, vulnerable stage portrayal is examined as a paradigm shift.

6. Concept Musical & Reflections in Staging

• Matt explains the “concept musical” format: themes over linear plot, the Kit Kat Club as liminal space/commentary device.
• The famous use of mirrors to implicate the audience (“what would you do?”), and subsequent productions becoming more immersive or environmental with each iteration.

7. Cabaret’s Production & Revival History

• Timeline breakdown:
  • Original 1966 Hal Prince production: revolutionary, but subsequent attempts to restage it decades later felt stale.
  • 1998 Sam Mendes/Rob Marshall revival: environmental, gritty, and set the standard for “radical” reimaginings in musical theater.
  • 2014 revival: brought back Alan Cumming, but reactions were mixed; attempts to “out-Mendes Mendes.”
  • Current London/Broadway revival: environmental to the extreme; some critics felt the bold design lacked emotional heart.

8. Interpretation of Roles

a) Sally Bowles

• The agony and ecstasy of acting Sally: must balance bravura with emotional wreckage, “bury something and cover it with something else.”

  “For me, my preference is always bury something and cover it with something. Like, that's just my acting preference. It’s what I like to do.” – Tom [47:38]

• The “Cabaret” number itself is a barometer for the Sally interpretation: does she unravel during the song, or fight to keep up the mask?

  “She’s trying to find a way back to that mentality for the beginning of the number... she’s holding on a little bit for dear life.” – Matt [55:50]

b) The Emcee

• The Emcee’s evolving symbolism: from Joel Grey’s impish, sinister Nazi-proxy, to Alan Cumming’s queer, tragic, victimized figure, to Eddie Redmayne’s puppet-like, asexual performer in the latest revival.

  “The Emcee can be played by anyone. And also, his reason for existing can change...” – Matt [44:49] “I felt like the Eddie Redmayne MC had no sexuality. It was like he was, like, celibate or something.” – Tom [71:05]

c) Cliff

• Often discounted as a “blank slate” or passive observer (“the camera”), they argue Cliff’s chemistry, complexity, and suppressed sexuality are fundamental to grounding the show emotionally.

  “If you do not work as Cliff, the whole production suffers. And I've seen productions where the Cliff did not work… he is ultimately the glue and it's a key component.” – Matt [78:15]

9. Supporting Cast: The Beating Heart

• Tom and Matt agree the Schneider/Schultz subplot always packs the most consistent dramatic punch, with real-world stakes (particularly in the recent revival with Bebe Neuwirth and Steven Skybell).

  “That half of the show was very symbolic... and like 40% of it was deeply moving.” – Tom [75:04]

10. Villainy, Gaslighting, and Moral Ambiguity

• The character Ernst embodies the chilling banality of evil (“I am, as your friend, I am telling you what you’re about to do is foolish and illegal and dangerous... I think he's doing a mitzvah.” – Matt [91:02]).
• They discuss the importance of moral ambiguity, both in character choices (Sally’s abortion, Cliff’s survival) and in refusing to impose simplistic “positive representation” on complex issues.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sally Bowles:

  “Her Sally loves to perform. So when you listen to her in ‘Don’t Tell Mama,’ she is having so much fun with those lyrics and with that audience, and that’s what makes her so intoxicating... You’ll never get a record deal, but you’ll be the headliner here until you drop.” – Matt on Natasha Richardson [55:50]

• On Changing Revivals:

  “With Cabaret... every production of Cabaret you would see would always be like, how controversial can we make it? How sexual can we make it?” – Matt [38:00]

• On the Danger of Overproducing the Emcee:

  “It’s like the Joker or something. And then... Alan Cumming was the Emcee for 20 years.” – Tom [40:32]

• On Cliff’s Complicated Sexuality:

  “It's more that Cabaret gives him stuff to play, even if it's not necessarily the ultimate message... Cliff's sexuality is not the story of Cabaret... It's what he saw that we're going to remember.” – Matt [82:17]

• On Sally’s Decision:

  “It is tragic that she chooses to stay behind because we know what's coming. But it is ultimately the correct decision that she gets the abortion. Because she is not a mothering type.” – Matt [59:55]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:27] – Cabaret first memories and Tom’s initial exposure
• [10:02] – Matt’s anecdote about attending as a precocious child
• [15:02] – Matt’s irreverent plot summary & thematic breakdown
• [19:03] – Concept musical explained & Kit Kat Club as liminal space
• [24:06] – Liza Minnelli’s original connection to the show
• [35:20] – Director-driven productions and the quest for reinvention
• [47:24] – Approaches to Sally’s “Cabaret” number
• [55:50] – Natasha Richardson’s approach: intoxication vs. vocal greatness
• [66:41] – Emcee’s gender, sexuality, and the addition of “I Don’t Care Much”
• [71:05] – Redmayne’s “celibate/puppet” Emcee: divisive interpretations
• [78:15] – The unsung importance and pitfalls of Cliff Bradshaw
• [89:47] – Ernst’s kindness weaponized—banality of evil in action

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Summary Table: Interpreting Core Roles

| Role | Traditional | Mendes Era / Cumming | Recent/London | Takeaway | |------------|--------------|----------------------|---------------|-----------------------------| | Sally | British, ambiguous talent, tragic | Raw, damaged, “nervy” | Very fragile or unstable; emotionally exposed | Success rides on “mask” & journey | | Emcee | Impish, Nazi proxy (Grey) | Queer, tragic, sexual, political (Cumming) | Puppet, asexual, emotionless (Redmayne) | Extreme swings foster new interpretations | | Cliff | Straight “camera,” writer | Gay/bisexual, reluctant/complex | Understated observer; glue of show | Needs chemistry & subtlety | | Schneider/Schultz | Warm, tragic, always lands | Consistent | Consistent | Realistic, heartfelt subplot always endures |

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Tone & Language

Maintaining Matt’s sardonic, opinionated, and enthusiastically profane tone throughout, the conversation is peppered with irreverence, deep-cut references, and genuine reverence for theatrical craft.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

If you haven’t listened but are fascinated by theater history, acting craft, or the cultural legacy of Cabaret, this episode offers:

• A candid, spirited education on the show’s journey
• Illuminating arguments about interpretation and representation
• Behind-the-scenes anecdotes about Broadway revivals, star casting, “problematic” but juicy roles, and what makes Cabaret still startlingly relevant
• A masterclass in unpacking complex characters— how Sally, the Emcee, and Cliff all become mirrors for their eras, performers, and us in the audience.

Stay tuned for Part 2, where Matt and Tom continue their deep dive into the evolution of Cabaret across eras, cultures, and artistic visions.

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Transcript

[A]

Sam. Hello, all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. I just realized this intro actually works very well for the musical we're covering today, specifically the opening number. But I digress. Our guest today is a prolific actor. You best know him from his Tony nominated turn in Stereophonic. After today, you will best know him from this episode of this podcast. Please welcome Tom Pasinka. Hello, Tom.

[B]

Hello, hello.

[A]

Welcome to Broadway Breakdown. We're very thrilled to have you here.

[B]

Thanks for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

[A]

So, Tam, what show are we talking about today?

[B]

We're talking about Cabaret. Boop, boop. That's right.

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, just a little niche show, not very well known, doesn't get done very often.

[B]

No, not at all.

[A]

No, not at all. How did Cabaret come into your life? How did it enter your chat?

[B]

You know, I was like, where are you from here?

[A]

Born and raised in New York.

[B]

Yeah, me too. I mean, I grew up on Long island, so, you know, like, my parents would take me to see shows and stuff I never saw because, like, my time of seeing Broadway shows as a kid was like, the Alan Cumming for the first version of that. Yeah. And I think they probably just thought it was a little too risque for me at the time. I mean, I don't quite know how old I was, but that was the production that sort of made me aware of Cabaret. I think other than that, I best knew Alan coming from, like, the X Men movies.

[A]

We get it. You're straight. It's okay.

[B]

No, but I just, like, I wasn't aware of him, but the only way I was really aware of him was from the X Men and from Cabaret. Those were two very specific pop culture views of that actor. So I would see a lot of the videos on YouTube, and when I was doing my, like, you know, high school, I don't Even know if YouTube was even around, but, like, I would find videos of, like, him singing the songs from Cabaret. That was like, the first production.

[A]

You're not, like, 50. I imagine that there was some YouTube while you were in high school.

[B]

I feel like it was like, Ebaum's World. Remember that website?

[A]

No. I'm famously very young. I. I'm simply a baby. I mean, YouTube, I think came out in 04.05. I could go to Wikipedia, but I Don't want to. But yeah, around that time. And I was a freshman in High School in 04. So that would be. That would be. I feel like you're not that much older than me, right? A year or two.

[B]

I'm not that much older. Yeah. I graduated high school in 2006.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So, yeah, So a couple years older. I guess that would. I'm terrible at math, but you're old.

[A]

Enough that I can call you Daddy. And it's not ironic. That's what it is.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. I could have a child. I don't. I hope you know of. I know of. That's true. That's very true. There could be some running around somewhere. But. But yeah, so, like that. So, like, yeah, through the Internet was kind of how I found out about Cabaret. Or maybe I had seen it on the Tonys. I just remember him wearing that, like, suspender contraption and being like, this is sexy. This is interesting. What is this? Yeah. And I think, like, just the vibes of it, really. I like the dark musicals. I like the gritty stuff. So for me, that was my viewpoint on it. And I hadn't seen a product. It wasn't until the recent revival that I saw the show.

[A]

Oh, really? Okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Who was your Sally and MC when you saw it? Because you were famously very booked and blessed when the show. When that production opened.

[B]

That's true. But we were invited to opening, so I went to open it. So they had, like, two openings. They had like an evening one and an afternoon one.

[A]

Yeah. A lot of shows now are doing these things where, like, there's the actual opening date for Tony eligibility, but then they'll have, like, a gala opening a few days before. So that way people can, like, enjoy themselves and not worry about reviews, which I. I get. But it's. It's confusing for people like me who have to cover this shit.

[B]

Right, exactly. So they. They invited us to one of the. They invited us, all the whole cast of Stereophonic to see the opening of that production. So I saw Eddie and Gale. Um. Yeah.

[A]

And so what was your feeling on the show when. When you finally got to see it in full?

[B]

Yeah, because I had only heard, like, you know, I think as an actor, you're always like, well, could I sing a song from this show? Or, like, could I play a part in this show? It's like, very me centric.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're like, I don't necessarily care about the whole show. I just care if I could get a job in it or play a cool part. And, like, the MC is, like, one of the very few music, like, traditional musical theater roles that I would love to play.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

Um, so. So seeing it for the first time, I worked. I worked for a long time in, like, boutique New York hotels as a bellhop, and I felt like I was going into, like, a fancy boutique hotel.

[A]

I definitely think that was not. Not the vibe they were going for. They. They wanted. They did not want it to feel like you were going to the theater. They wanted it to feel like it was this secret space.

[B]

Right. But I. I think what attracts me to the Sam Mendes production, or like, at least what I've seen or known from it, is the, like, the. The. The less polished. Not that they're not that, like, in the.

[A]

Prof.

[B]

I thought in the performances, there was a lot of, like, raw, nervy energy and. And I loved the design, but I felt like it was like. Like a very polished design as opposed to the Sam Mendes production, which was very gritty and kind of gross.

[A]

Yeah, we'll get into this. As you sort of go through the different eras of cabaret productions, because the Sam Mendy's production. Well, we'll get into it. We'll get into it. So.

[B]

Yeah, we'll get into it.

[A]

So this is. So that is how Cabaret entered your chat. Cabaret, the musical, entered my chat. I don't know if you know this about me, Tom, but I do like the musical. I am. I am a musical person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm a theater gay. And I do. I do also very much like the straight plays. I see many of them as well. And, yeah, I joke with people. The only reason I saw Stereophonic twice is because y' all sang. But, yeah, Cabaret, growing up in this. Growing up in New York with a family that really loved theater and really liked, you know, culture and stuff like that, and they were really big on exposing the children to as many movies and theater and books as they could. And so I was aware of the movie, and I think I finally saw the movie because I wanted to see the show really badly when it opened, and I didn't really know anything about the show other than, you know, the poster art for it and them performing on the Tonys, and there would be. I got the cast recording with Alan Cumming and Natasha Richardson, and I was obsessed with it. It. And my parents were not censorship parents. They. But they. Their thing was, like, as a kid, for me, if I could explain why I wanted to see something that was kind of grown up, then I could go other. But if I. If I just wanted to see it, because, like, it was the thing they said, yeah, fat chance. You know, come back to us when you've actually kind of done your research on this. Which I thought, looking back, I'm like, that's. That's a good rule for your kid. So they saw it right after Natasha Richardson left, and it was still Alan Cumming, but it was Jennifer Jason Leigh. Cause that production of Cabaret was famous for having a lot of different sallies and MCs and kind of semi stunt casting. So I finally got to see it after having seen the movie. I was 11, and it was right after 9. 11. And Brooke. Yeah, Brooke Shields, our current Equity president was Sally Bowles.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yep. And I remember really loving it now. I was 11 and I read posts sometimes about Brooke as Sally Bowles. And not everyone was as enthralled with her performance as I was Now I was 11. I was less jaded at the time. She really impressed me. But the big story, the two things I remember most about that original Sam Mendes, Rob Marshall production were that you could order drinks and snacks at the tables. And so it was my mom, my sister, and myself. And we got chocolate covered strawberries because I was. Was feeling decadent.

[B]

That's very decadent.

[A]

I was that bougie bitch even then, Tom. I was. Yes, I was pushing boundaries with everyone even at 11. And when we got to the theater, the usher looked at me and then looked at my mom and said, ma', am, are you aware that this has, you know, mature content in it? She said, I'm aware. Give me my tickets. And I appreciate that as well from the usher. He's like, are you sure you want your kid to see this? And she said, yes. So we saw that. And then I saw it when it came back with Michelle Williams. And then I saw it again when Emma Stone went in. And then I saw this most recent revival. I technically saw this most recent revival twice, but not because I loved it, because I had friends in it and they were going on for roles they were understudying and they were like, please come back. And I was like, do I have to? And I did.

[B]

That's a good friend.

[A]

I do many things for friends. There are certain shows that I've seen multiple times because of friends. And I. I don't. I don't tell them that they owe me, but I do remind them of the good friend that I am.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, you gotta. You gotta make sure that, you know, you get a little bit of a transactional situation going on.

[A]

Yes, but not in A gross, pervy way, just in a. Like, hey, I did something nice for you. It would be lovely if you did something nice for me at some point.

[B]

Exactly. It's a give and take.

[A]

Exactly. So for this podcast, then, when we gave you your prep packet, this was a bit more of your education on sort of the history of cabaret, correct?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I remember, like, all those. Whatever we want to call stunt casting. Right. Who is the new mc? Like, I remember when, like, Michael C. Hall was doing it, and then when. That second round. Because when did they bring it back? The Sam Mendes production.

[A]

So the Sam Mendes production was 98 to 2003, and then they brought it back in 2014, and that was for about a year. And. And I think it was Alan coming the entire time, but it was Michelle Williams, Emma Stone, and then Sienna Miller. Those were the three Sallys.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's funny. I've worked with a lot of cliffs.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. So Atu Blankson Wood and I were in the same class at Yale, so he's an old, dear friend. I worked with Bill Heck Nice in the park years ago, and then I worked with Greg Edelman on a production of Death Trap up at the Berkshire Theatre Festival many years ago. And I.

[A]

Were you the gay. Were you the gay hustler guy who helps him kill his wife?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God, you're such an ally.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we did. It was me, him, Deborah, Joe Rupp as, like, the crazy. The crazy, like, neighbor who's, like, the psychic. And then Allison. Oh, God, what is her name?

[A]

Jani.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no. She was in Secret Garden. Frasier. Alison Fraser was the wife.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

It was a stacked cast.

[A]

I did Williamstown Theater Festival as an apprentice many, many years ago, and there was a production of True west that they did that I was on the crew for, and Deborah Jo Rupp was the mom. And she would sit in the wings the entire show and just sort of watch and, like, absorb and meditate before she had to make her entrance. Because the mom in True west famously, like, doesn't show up till the last five minutes of the piece. Yeah. And the crew was, like, nine guys who were apprentices because we had to. It was a whole thing anyway. So we had, like, costumes and all this stuff, and we'd always try to, like, not get a rise out of her, but we would try to engage with her in conversation. But once. Once the show technically began, she was just. She was not having us.

[B]

She was locked in well, she lives up there. She, like, has a house up in the Berkshires and I think she spent most of her time up there. But she taught me a lot about comedy and timing. She'd be like, don't move on this line. And I'd be like. And of course it got a huge laugh. But that's what eight years on a live sitcom will teach you.

[A]

Absolutely. So is it Greg Edelman, Bill Heck and Otu? Yes. Yeah. Cliff is a tricky role. So let me, let's, let's, let's get into it for a second. So for all of the uncultured fucks out there, this is the synopsis for Cabaret. Oh, it's kind of a long one. I'll see if I can shorten this a bit. Per stage agent. Cabaret takes place from 1929 to 1930, when Berlin, in the midst of a Post World War I economic depression, is transitioning from a center of underground avant garde cultural epicenter to the beginning of Hitler's totalitarian regime and the rise of the Nazi Party. Fun stuff in the world enters Cliff Bradshaw, a struggling American writer looking for inspiration for his next novel. On his first night in Berlin, Cliff wanders into the KitKat club, a seedy nightclub overseen by the strange, omniscient and gender bending master of ceremonies or otherwise known as the mc. Cliff meets Sally Bowles, a vivacious, they call her talented, she's not talented. Cabaret performer and an utterly lost soul. Sally and Cliff begin a relationship which turns into a bit of a romance. Time passes. Berlin changes from exciting and vital to ominous and violent. Cliff's German friend Ernst turns out to be an up and coming member of the Nazi Party. Herr Schultz, a fellow boarder at Frulein Schneider's guest house, where Cliff is a tenant as well. And Schneider's fiance is the victim of a anti Semitic hate crime. When he finds out that Sally is pregnant, Cliff decides they must leave for America before things get worse. Sally is unsure and she's unsure if she'll ever really be able to trade the sexy Alyssa Cabri lifestyle for motherhood. So she gets an abortion again, musical theater razzle dazzle. And tells Cliff that he must leave without her. And that is the end of the Stage Agent synopsis. It's kind of. They're trying to capture all of it, which I understand, but there's some words in there that I wouldn't use. For example, talented when we talk about Sally Bowles.

[B]

Well, yeah, I mean, I always think it's like a weird. I'd never seen the film But I watched clips and, like, watching the Liza performance, I was like, oh, is she. She's, like, playing it like she's supposed to be, like, this amazing. I mean, at least that's what I took from it. She's. She's, like, playing it as. She's, like, this amazing performer, but it's also because she's Liza Minnelli, I guess.

[A]

Yeah, it's Liza Minnelli, definitely. You know, I don't know if it's at the peak of her powers, but she's definitely in the prime of her life. And so that's always been. The debate about Sally Bowles is that when the movie was so well known and became the only thing that people really thought of with the show for the better part of 20 years, everyone thought of Liza. And then the Zammenis production kind of reinvented the whole thing. And Natasha Richardson, Sally Bowles kind of brought a whole new edge to it. And now there's just this constant debate of how talented is Sally really. And there's. You read it in different reviews of major productions that the director, the actress and critics have a hard time reckoning what makes a successful Sally Bowles.

[B]

I think it's, like, the hardest part in the show.

[A]

Oh, for sure.

[B]

It's because it's. It's so. It's like, how much. How much of the nerve do you show? Or, like, how much do you cover? What's most effective? And then I feel like, because. Because, like, the. The MC's so kind of, like, all over the place as far as, like, is he even a real person? What is he. He's kind of looming over this entire thing. It doesn't really matter if he's, like, a good performer or not. I don't think it's like, is he a good host? Right.

[A]

Yeah, he needs to be charming. He needs to reel you in.

[B]

Yeah. But I feel like what's so hard about the Sally role is because through her performances at the club, we see the quality of the club. So, like, it's like. So then I'm like, okay, if she's really talented, then, like, this club is, like, a place where people go to see entertainment. If she's not, then I'm like, oh, it's just a basement garbage place where, like, people just go to, like, get drunk and have sex or whatever the hell.

[A]

Yeah, that is. I mean, I'm assuming that's what most people do in clubs. I go for the food, but.

[B]

Okay. The mozzarella sticks.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

The chicken fingers.

[A]

I would say yeah, it's, it's, it, it's, it. It depends. So when you look at the original concept of the show and the original production, which was a watershed moment in musical theater, it's really credited as the first concept musical. Does that term mean anything to you, Tom? Concept musical?

[B]

Not really.

[A]

Okay. It's probably something that had been said to you at one point in your life and then you're like, sure, sure, sure, I don't ever need to hear that again. And then cut to 15 years later and this asshole's like, tom, do you know it? So the concept musical really kind of launched with Cabaret, but it crystallized with the Sondheim musicals in the 70s. And that is that they are musicals that are less concerned with the plot of the show and more about the themes of the show. So something like Hair Company Follies. Those are concept musicals. And Cabaret has a plot. But the KitKat club also kind of acts as both a real place and a limbo land. So there are times where you're not sure if we're watching something that's actually taking place in the club or if this is just sort of this theatrical device that's commenting on the action, you know.

[B]

Right, right, right, right.

[A]

And that was something that the original producer and director, Hal Prince really wanted to kind of play around with because the, the musical Cabaret is technically speaking based off of the stage play I Am a Camera, which is based off of the book Goodbye Berlin. Goodbye Berlin is a relatively true account of Isherwood's time in Berlin during this era. He is the Cliff Bradshaw that we watch. Although in real life Isherwood was very, very gay and British. And Sally Bowles, well, I guess Sally, the real name of the woman, I forget her name, but she existed, she was British and she kind of resented her depiction in the book because the real woman that Sally Bowles is based off of did kind of snap out of her stupor of party girl mentality and became an advocate for the anti Nazi party and fought against the Nazis and did a lot of spy work and became an advocate for equality and equity and whatnot. But even when she died, she was known as the inspiration for Sally Bowles. And that is a double edged sword. Cause Sally Bowles is a wonderful creation of theater. Yeah. So with the original production, I know we had it in the, in the docket. The review for the original Broadway production of Cabaret is almost entirely a rave except for one major strike against it and that was that the New York Times criticism hated Jill Hayworth as Sally Bowles.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Which. Which again, I think is indicative as to how hard the part is.

[A]

Yeah. And also that it's not. It's unclear if the critic. Cause he's not the only critic who. Who didn't care for her. And there's also comments of like, Joel Hayworth was super inconsistent. She would have nights where she really gave it and other nights where she was less than. Cause she was mostly a film actress who. This was her first Broadway musical and she found it pretty exhausting and kind of boring after a while. She didn't like the repetition of eight shows a week. Yeah. That's the thing that Streisand always said about Broadway. She was like, after opening night, I would get bored and I would want to change things up. And everybody was like, you literally can't do that. We've got sets that have to move on a certain beat. Barbara, you can drag out a line. Cause you feel like it today.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And she's like, but I'm feeling it.

[B]

Yeah. I've been there on stage with actors who are inconsistent, for sure.

[A]

Mm. We won't name names today.

[B]

We won't name names. No. This is not. This is not getting me in trouble. But I don't want to get. Sometimes. Sometimes I do like the inconsistency because then it makes it exciting.

[A]

Sure. I mean, I think that's sort of where I get very nervous for myself because I've talked about this before of like, part of the reason why I love 29 year old, coked out of her mind, scared for her life. Patti LuPone in the role of Evita is that she doesn't always sound like she's gonna hit the note, but she does. And it sounds amazing and it doesn't sound unhealthy. But like, that tension is sort of what makes the score exciting. But also I'm like, I don't want to tell young women that that's how they have to sing because that's unsustainable.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

Like Patti LuPone made it to 80 singing this way because she's a freak of nature. No one else can get away with that.

[B]

Yeah. She's got chords of something else of 1000%.

[A]

The thing with this though, so is that is the fun fact is that Liza Minnelli was who the score of Cabaret was kind of written around for. I don't know if you. If you knew that.

[B]

I didn't know that. Well, because then I thought in reading, I guess I had just automatically assumed that Liza Minnelli had played it originally, but then when I was looking at the reviews, I was like, oh, there's another actress that was. So. I had no idea that, like, Liza had any sort of part of it until the film.

[A]

Yeah, well, this is what. What this podcast does, Tom, is that we educate the uncultured fucks like yourself.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yes. Tom may have a Tony nomination, everybody, but he is just as much of a dumb baby as anyone else in this world.

[B]

I'm a true uncultured fuck. I just got lucky, that's all.

[A]

Nah, that's not true. You're very good at what you do. And I'm sure that you could school me on dramatic works in the way that I can school you on Rodgers and Hammerstein.

[B]

Oh, I could tell you all. I could. I could tell you all about Chekhov, all about Shakespeare or whatever you could do.

[A]

We want you to, though.

[B]

No, no. The only thing I will mention related to Cabaret is that also Steven Skibel was my Shakespeare teacher in college.

[A]

I adore that man.

[B]

Me, too.

[A]

He's. I fir. I. Well, okay, I guess, technically speaking, the first time I saw him was he played Miranda's eye doctor on Sex and the City when she gets the laser eye surgery. I did not know that was him at the time. The first time I really saw him in my life was in the Yiddish Fiddler, and I just felt head over heels for him. And so when he was cast in Cabaret, I was like, oh, I'm going to be in good hands for this.

[B]

Yeah. And that. And. And I love that part of the show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In particular, like. And especially in this latest production, I felt like that was the true heart of the. The storytelling.

[A]

Herr Schultz and Fraulein Schneider. So they're single. Cabrio. We're going a little over the place, but that's okay. This is how the POD works. You've listened before. You know that. Yeah, yeah. Fraulein Schneider and Herr Schultz. You know Fraulein Schneider, the landlady who runs the boarding house that Cliff lives in, and Herr Schultz is also attendant. They have this romance. They are roles that have been nominated in every major production of Cabaret. And then Fraulein Schneider has actually won quite a few times, and especially in London. Like, every time it's done in London, the woman playing Fraulein Schneider tends to win the Olivier, but Herr Schultz also gets nominated almost every single time as well. And Sally Bowles is actually a role that doesn't always get nominated. And I think that it's because she is the most high risk, high reward. Whereas Frulein Schneider and Herr Schultz are a little more dependably warm. They ingratiate themselves to the audience immediately. Whereas Sally is kind of a long game you have to play. And if it doesn't pay off in Act 2, the audience is resentful.

[B]

Yes, but. So to go back to Liza. Yes. What? So you were saying that the score was made for her or built around her?

[A]

It was built around her. So thank you for opening that door for me, Tom. You're a professional. So Hal Prince was a prominent producer on Broadway and was transitioning into directing. That's really what he wanted to do. And the first show he technically directed on Broadway was a show that he inherited out of town called A Family Affair. And it didn't really run very long, but John Kander was the composer for it. And soon afterwards, John Kander met Fred Evan. They became collaborating partners. The next show that really kind of guaranteed Hal Prince's directing career. Not in the way, like I would say that the next show was she Loves Me. And that was sort of the alley up that allowed Hal Prince to spike the ball with Cabaret. I don't know if those sports terms go together, but they do in my head. Thank you. She Loves Me had a book written by Joe Masteroff, who would write the book for Cabaret. And in between she Loves Me and Cabaret, Hal Prince had produced a musical starring Liza Minnelli that won her her first Tony Award called Flora the Red Menace, with a score by Kander Neb. Okay, Flora the Red Menace is a show that doesn't work. It's got a good score. But the basic premise is Liza Minnelli plays a manic pixie dream girl who wants to work in fashion. And because she's also kind of a pick me girl, she meets a guy she likes and she accidentally or almost accidentally joins the Communist party circa like 1935. That's Flora the Red Menace.

[B]

Great.

[A]

And Hal Prince was the producer, but George Abbott, who was his mentor, was the book writer and director. And George Abbott was very big on the light hearted golden age shows. He was really big on comedies and even stuff that was a little more murky territory, like Pal Joey. It was done with a sophisticated palette. And Hal Prince really wanted Flora the Red Menace to actually explore themes of communism and have the conversation of, like, it's considered the big red scare, but, like, how bad is it really? What is the actual values of communism? And then what about American capitalism? And George Abbott is like, absolutely not. She's a pick me girl who wants to go into Fashion. And so the show did not run very long, but Liza Minnelli won a Tony Award and more importantly, got a very close relationship with Kander and Ebb. And at that same time, Hal Prince had gotten the theatrical rights to musicalize I Am A Camera, the play that was based off of Goodbye Berlin. It was being done as a musical already, with Sandy Wilson writing the score. Sandy Wilson was best known as the British writer of the musical the Boyfriend, which, for anyone who doesn't know the Boyfriend was a big hit in London that came to Broadway in the 50s and was Julie Andrews Broadway debut. We haven't seen it in about 55 years because it's a show about girls who are like, we're British and we're elegant and we want boyfriends. And at the end, they all get boyfriends.

[B]

Oh, yeah, That's. Who wants to see that?

[A]

I mean, I want to live that way, but I don't want to see that on my thing. I want a man, Tom. I don't always want to be seeing shows about people wanting men. So Sandy Wilson, as you can imagine, a guy who writes a show like that, he's writing this musical based off of I Am A Camera. And Hal Prince gets the new theatrical rights. He brings Joe Masteroff from she Loves Me on board. They're listening to Sandy Wilson songs, and they're all like, jazz, baby. And they're like, so where's the song about when she gets the abortion? And Sandy Wilson's like, hmm, I don't know that a word at all. What do you mean? No, no, no, no. Not that at all. And in fact, I think if you watch the movie of I Am a Camera starring Julie Harris based off of her in the stage show as well in the movie version, because of the Hays Code, she doesn't get an abortion. She just got the days wrong. So she thought she was pregnant because she miscounted the days that she was late.

[B]

Okay, yeah.

[A]

Very different outcome.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. That's like when I did Greece in middle school and we changed the. Her being pregnant to her failing out of school.

[A]

Wait, which was this?

[B]

Greece.

[A]

Oh, Greece.

[B]

Yeah. When RZA gets pregnant, we change it to when she was. That she was failing out of school.

[A]

I mean, she failed something. She failed a pregnancy test.

[B]

She really did fail a pregnancy test for sure. Yeah. But so Liza.

[A]

So, yeah. So Liza. Liza's connected. All this because of Flora. So when Kander and Ebb came on board to write the score to replace Sandy Wilson, they were writing it with Liza in mind because she was like 19, 20, and she had just won a Tony Award. And they were like, she's. I think they really thought she was the right person for the role, and she was auditioning for it as well. Hal Prince felt that she a. Wasn't totally in control of her talent just yet. She, like, hadn't full, fully harnessed it. He felt Flora was kind of a fluke. And he also. But he also thought that she was too good of a singer, and he wanted someone who was a bit shakier and someone who also was just inherently British, which is why he went with Jill Hayworth, who was a British actress who could sing but wasn't a singer singer. And more importantly, was like, a little more in control of herself as an actress, having been a film actress for the last 15 years.

[B]

Right, yeah. Right. So Liza just got kicked to the curb kind of.

[A]

Yeah. Like, basically Liza would go and do a lot of club acts and they wrote the song maybe this time for her, and she would do that all over the place. And she basically hightailed it back to Hollywood where she started doing movies and got an Oscar nomination for this Daryl Cuckoo and became like a pop culture girly from that. Like, she would, like. She basically went on and just allowed herself to become very famous by the end of the 60s. And so when the movie was happening of Cabaret, she had the clout to get the role.

[B]

I see, I see. Okay. Interesting. Yeah.

[A]

Sometimes you just have to wait it out and it actually pays out even better for you.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Yeah. But the stage show, I mean, it was this giant hit and it was really kind of this major move forward of, oh, you know, as we're in the 60s and Vietnam is happening and cinema is getting grittier with. And more on the pulse with, like, the Graduate and Midnight Cowboy. Cabaret was a musical that brought Broadway to, you know, current day in a lot of ways. Even though it was about the past, it was sort of this reflection. And the big thing about the show that was a major calling card about the design was that the show began with a mirror facing the audience, and the show ended with the mirror facing the audience and sort of confronting the audience with, you know, their own agency of, you know, if you. You can judge these characters all you want, but at the end of the day, if you were in their shoes, as Fraulein Schneider saying, what would you do?

[B]

Right. Yeah, Right. And I think that's. That feels like a theme that has. That. That has followed it. You know, obviously there's like, not a mirror Mirror in every production. But there's that meditation, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That feels like a thread through the actual history of the piece. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I mean, I think that's sort of why the show went from being a proscenium with a mirror to then becoming so environmental. We maybe don't have a literal mirror anymore, but we are now far more a part of the story in subsequent productions.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

What's interesting is. Oh, sorry, you were gonna say.

[B]

No, no, no. I think it. I think it'd be interesting to see. Where does Cabaret go from here? Because it's like, we've now done the club table thing twice. What ha. What's the next thing? Will it always just be now the club table, you're in the club, you know? Or will it be back to, like, a proscenium? Like, what's that next? Reincarnation? You know, I think that's where it feels like. Okay, well, where. Where does that. Where does what. How does it speak to whatever the next thing is?

[A]

Yeah, I think. I think that it's interesting because in a lot of ways, I find that Cabaret has a lot of similarities to into the woods in terms of how people do it, and that as time goes on, more and more directors come to it and they're like, I have a vision. I have an idea. I've got a gimmick. And what made the last Broadway production of into the woods resonate with so many theater people was it was a production that didn't have a vision, it didn't have a gimmick. They were just like, it's good material. We're just going to do the show. And people like me who love into the woods were like, oh, great. I would love to see a production of into the woods that doesn't take place in an insane asylum. It actually just takes place in a magical wood.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. And it became this radical concept because after 35 years of radical concepts, simplicity, and just doing the show was the new radical. And with Cabaret, there's sort of a pattern, at least with Broadway, because it's done in London pretty frequently as well. But they don't ever really replicate the last production. So. Whereas we kind of do that here. So we had the Hal Prince production in the 60s. The movie comes out in the 70s, is this huge, huge hit, and ends up being associated with Liza Minnelli and Bob Fosse, who directed the movie. And Hal Prince was not a fan of that, even though his career in theater had become so massive and he had done Follies and Sweeney Todd and Evita and Phantom had opened in London by the time this was happening. But, like, he had a little bit of resentment that over the next 20 years, Cabaret became more associated with Bob Fosse than with him. And so he did a remount with Greg as Cliff and did a remount of his entire original staging and design. Joel Gray came back as the emcee.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the response was sort of muted. Everyone was like, right, right, right. Cabaret is a wonderful show still. But the things that were so mind blowing in 66, like, a lot of time has passed in 22 years and we've gone through the entire 70s and 80s. And so all these things kind of feel retro now. And Joel Gray has become so synonymous with Cabaret that, like, the MC who's not supposed to be, like, the overwhelming lead of the show now becomes the headliner. And so then what happened was Sam Mendes did his production at the Donmar Warehouse and that was the one that was environmental and, like, blew everyone's mind in that respect. And Alan Cumming as the MC who had not done X Men yet. So he was just. He was. He was just a little.

[B]

He was a nobody.

[A]

He was a new planet. No, he hadn't even done Emma with Gwyneth Paltrow. So he was a nobody to me too. He hadn't even done Romeo, Michelle's High School reunion. Total flop as far as I'm concerned. And they do that production and you can watch that Dahmer production on YouTube with him and Jane Horrocks. And it's. And it's good, but it feels more sort of like a workshop of the version we would come to have because it comes to Broadway about five years later. Rob Marshall joins him as a co director and choreographer. And that is. And with that production blowing up, that sort of changes everyone's viewpoint of, oh, it's not necessarily Fosse, it's not necessarily glamorous 1930s Berlin. It's grungy, it's sexy, it's boundary pushing. And then for 25 years after that, like, every production of Cabaret you would see would always be like, how controversial can we make it? And, yeah, yeah, like how sexual can we make it? And they bring back the Sam Mendy's production in 2014 and has the same response as when Hal Prince brought his back. Rev was like, yeah, this was, like, really bold and shocking in 98, but 16 years have passed and it's. It kind of just feels like a retread. And. And, yeah, and then we get this Last one that came from London, and it's still a huge hit over there. They're still doing it over there. But a lot of American critics, and myself included, were left very cold by it because it's like. It doesn't feel like you're really listening to the material. It feels like you're trying to out Mendy's Sam Mendes.

[B]

Right, right. I mean, that. That, like, almost technically, too. Right. It's like we had the sort of suggestion with the. Like, we had the tables and the chairs, and now we're gonna, like, make it just a. We're gonna turn the whole theater into. We're a club. We're gonna have, like, opening acts. Like, so you have to come to the theater. I mean, I remember when I went to the opening, I felt like I was at the Kick Club for, like, eight hours. I was like, get me out of the freaking Kit Kat Club. Like, I mean, like, it's. It was great and, like, I had a good time, but, like, I need to get out of here. Yeah. So. And then it was like. I felt like it was like sort of like the sleep. No, more of it all too. Where it was like. It was kind of like lending to that. But it does. It did feel like that. Okay, we're gonna out. But. But it's so funny that the history of the show kind of repeats itself, little baby.

[A]

Because it's.

[B]

Because it's like Joel Gray, that was like a. That was like, he was the emcee, and then. And then Alan Cumming, and then he came back as the mc. Like, he was iconically the mc. It's like the Joker or something. Yeah, it's like. It's like. And then. And then Alan Cumming, it was the emcee for 20 years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Do you know that from Phineas and Ferb, where it's like, if I had two nickels every time I was blank, I would have two nickels, which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice. Yeah, yeah, I. I. Yeah, I did that once with Cabaret. Like, if I had a nickel for every time the original MC came back to Broadway in a recreation of his past production, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.

[B]

It is weird. And it's like, why. It's like, why is that there's no other musical that feels like. Like that. That happens?

[A]

Yeah, it's. We don't get recreations of original productions much anymore. That used to be More of a thing in the 60s and 70s and 80s, you didn't come here for the history of Broadway revivals, Tom, but I'll just try to condense it for you a little bit. Basically, revivals didn't used to be these giant rethinkings of shows. They would be sometimes just a short limited run in the 50s and 60s of a show that people had really liked that would run for three months. And it's same sets. Like, they went on tour, they came back, they closed out the tour. And then with Pal Joey, that was a whole new production of a show that was sort of successful the first time. And everyone went, oh, we like this show a lot more now. And it became more successful. And so revivals of shows that maybe were only semi successful the first time were coming back in, like, brand new productions, but they weren't rethinkings. It was just like, you know, it's been 15 years and here's some more money and more technology, but it's basically the same show. And then in the 80s, there were a couple of, like, blatant, just like, copy paste of the original Cabaret, Sweet Charity. And if it wasn't a recreation of the original staging, it was like a Pal Joey. They would do a glitzed up nostalgia fest of a golden age musical like Patti and Anything Goes, or Nathan Lane in Guys and Dolls. And then Carousel, my beloved Carousel comes from London. That's like a total reimagining of the show. And from there becomes like, okay, if you're gonna do a re, you gotta make it new. And that's what brings us Cabaret and Chicago and, you know, now into the 21st century. We have this other cabaret and we have Color Purple. Like, it's not a recreation. I think the only revival we've had in the last, like, 35, almost 40 years that was a recreation of the original production was A Chorus Line. And that didn't go over super well.

[B]

No, I remember that. Yeah, it was. Which I'm. I'm itching. A Chorus Line is one of my favorite musicals of all time. I love, love, love Chorus Line.

[A]

What's your role in that, Tom?

[B]

Oh, God. Well, I did it when I was a. Like a teenager. Okay, who's the one. Who's the one next to Val?

[A]

Mark. The one who thought he had gonorrhea?

[B]

That's right. I played that part. Yeah, I played Mark.

[A]

What did you do for your research?

[B]

I got gonorrhea.

[A]

Thank you for resonating me.

[B]

Yeah, I got a gonorrhea. And then I went on some antibiotics.

[A]

Fantastic.

[B]

And it was all good.

[A]

I drank a lot of water.

[B]

And I drank a lot of water. Yeah. And then I put on some really. I put on a dance belt and I put on some dance pants and some Capizios and, you know, dance my little heart out. But I do feel like we have that model now with this, like, tour thing that happens where it's like, oh, we're just gonna. We're gonna just put the tour, like, with Mamma Mia. Or with, like, Beetlejuice, you know, it's like this thing works, so we're just gonna bring it back. But I think what's interesting. Cause I didn't know about the Joel. I didn't know about Joel Gray coming back, you know, But I also think it lends itself to that role because there's no a. Like, the MC's ageless. He's timeless. You know, Alan Cumming can play it at 30 and then play it at 50 again, and then probably play it at 60 or 70.

[A]

That can really be anything or anyone. And that's the brilliance of how that role was created. Because that role doesn't exist in either the Goodbye Berlin book or in I Am a Camera that was a creation of Hell Princes. And because of how Cabaret is written, he. Yeah, the MC can be played by anyone. And also, his reason for existing can change because in the original production and in the movie, Joel Gray is sort of a symbol for the Nazi Party. And there's some interview with Hal Prince where, in the original production, like, Joel Gray was so popular. In that original production, audiences loved him so much because he's, like. He's little and he's. And he's cute and he's got the clownish makeup, and he sings, like, the most catchy songs. But the point of him is that towards the end, he becomes even more sinister with, you know, if you could see her through my eyes. That's the ultimate sort of gotcha moment with audiences.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And audience. Hal Prince was both the producer and director of Cabaret. And he would sometimes have people come up to him after the show if he was stopping by, and they would go, oh, you're missing a perfect merch opportunity. You should have little dolls made of that, of that MC guy. And hellfriends would respond with, like, do you want him to wear the swastika as well? And they were confused. They, like, didn't get that that was his point. And then in the Alan Cumming production, he was a victim of the Nazi Party when the show ended, he took off his trench coat and you saw he was wearing concentration camp clothes with a Star of David in a pink triangle. And so it's sort of like the impishness that he got away with for so long ends up being the thing that persecutes him. And then in this last revival, Eddie Redmayne, his version of the MC is sort of like a puppet. And so it's less that he is inherently evil and it's being revealed at the end like Joel Gray's is, and more that, like, he's just willing to go along to get along, even if that means conforming to the Nazis.

[B]

Right. Do you have a preference?

[A]

I. I prefer the MC that I would do, Tom. No, I don't. I don't. I don't know if I have a preference. I would. It's. I very much did not like this last revival, so I'll just say that flatly. I did not care for how Eddie played the role. I really didn't care for how Gail played the role. And I will kind of want to get into why Sally is so tricky and sort of get your take on it as well. Were you able to watch any of the clips of other Sallys on YouTube?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I saw the Natasha Richardson one and I obviously, I saw the Lies of Film one and then I saw Gail's. In person.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And. And, like, I think as a. For me, my preference is always bury something and cover it with something. Like, that's just my acting preference. It's what I like to do. I find that tension to be exciting, both, like, as an artist, but as an audience member, too. And I felt like. And I had watched some of. I didn't see. Because it was what's Her Face in London. Right.

[A]

Jessie Buckley did it in London. But there's. As far as I'm aware, there's no video footage of her, just the cast recording.

[B]

Yeah. Because I had. I just saw Hamnet and I thought her performance was unbelievably insane.

[A]

Yeah, she is. She is that girl.

[B]

Yeah. And I. And I. So I was interested when I was looking up all the cabaret stuff, I was like, oh, I hope I get to see a version of what she did in. In that production. But there's no. It's. It's another actress that did it at.

[A]

The Oliviers, Amy Lennox. Yeah.

[B]

And it is that thing of, like, raw nervy. I mean, I think in Jesse Green's review, like, he used that word. It's like the raw nerve is just there out front and for me, I felt like, okay, well, where do we go from here? Like, I was like, that thing with Sally singing Cabaret, that song feels to me. It's like, I'm gonna keep this going until I just collapse. Like, I'm gonna keep the. The. The. The happiness and the joy and the fun and, like, I'm a part, like, the party. I'm gonna keep the party going until someone shoots me in the head, you know? And, like, that's exciting to me. The other choice is valid. Fine, but. But not my preference. I don't think.

[A]

Same. I. When that revival was in London and it opened, I had friends who saw it with Eddie and Jesse and raved about it, and I'm sure Jesse was great in person. I've only seen Jessie Buckley once on stage, and I didn't care for her performance, but I don't blame her. I blame Trevor Nunn, and I hope to meet her one day and we can talk about it because he just did not understand the character she was playing and he made her cry the entire time. And Jesse Buckley can cry real good.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

When Amy Lennox's performance from the Oliviers went online and kind of was making the rounds, I was very vocal online about how much I did not like it, because for all the things you said, I find that kind of performing impressive acting wise, in the way that riffing is impressive, singing wise. It's like, it's really cool you can get there so quickly, but we have another three and a half minute of song to go. And as you said, like, where do we go from here? And the way that Hal Prince has always described the reasoning for that song is when the song begins in the show Cabaret, Sally is pregnant and she doesn't know what she's going to do. And by the end of the song, she decides, I'm going to have an abortion. And you have an actress who has to get to that journey. And it's unfair to compare it to Liza in the movie, because in the movie, the song is placed in a different moment of the story. And there's a movie podcast I listen to called Blank Check. And they covered Cabaret for their Bob Fosse series, and Rachel Zegler was the guest on it. And it was one of the few times I've ever wanted to scream into my airpods because they were talking about, like, Liza versus Natasha versus Jessie Buckley and, like, what Liza's doing. And, you know, why it's so good and why don't other actresses do it? And I'm like, because in the movie, she's already had the abortion and Cliff has left. And then she sings the song. She's in a very different place when she does the number. And in the musical, you know, it's the breaking point before all those other things eventually happen. So the mind frame is different. And in the musical there's also the. She's going back to the club, she's had this fight with Cliff. Everything just sort of feels the fraught and on the edge. And what I love about what Natasha Richardson does is that it's sort of halfway between Liza Minnelli and Amy Lennox or Gayle Rankin or Jesse Buckley, which is. And this is also kind of why the Sam Mendes production changed the mold of the show and Natasha Richardson kind of changed the mold. You watch the Liza version and there's only really one moment where the mask is and it's right before she goes on and she's kind of just like ho hummy. But then the curtains open and she, she lights up again and then she pretty much does the performance and like it's manic, but in the way that Liza's Sally is manic. I've. The way that I buy her, Sally Bowles of why she would be working at the Kit Kat Club is that she is talented enough to break through, but she's such a disaster as a human. She's never going to. She's like the female Marty supreme, you know?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Or whatever Marty's last name in the movie is, I forget, but Marty Supreme.

[B]

Marty Mouser.

[A]

Marty Mouser, yeah. So then you saw it, right?

[B]

Twice.

[A]

Oh, again, guys, Everybody. Thomas Straight. So I should see it again though. I really liked it.

[B]

Dream big. Dream big.

[A]

But my thing about Marty in that movie is, you know, it's, it's. He is a smart, talented dude, but he's so messy that he can't ever allow himself to succeed. Every time he almost wins, he either does something stupid to mess it up or he stays a little too long at the fair and something goes wrong. He doesn't ever have the foresight to know, like, oh, I need to get out now while the going's good. Like, while I have the money in my hand and just leave. He's. Yeah, he's too messy for that.

[B]

And so, yeah, he gets in his own way.

[A]

Exactly. And Liza, Sally's the same way.

[B]

Yeah. Like, she can't show up on time. She can't. Like there's no follow through. It's like when she shows up, it's great.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But like sometimes she's not there.

[A]

Sometimes she's not there.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And I think, I don't know, I, I think I'm watching the video of the Natasha Richardson. What I, what I liked about it was it's so she just stands there at the microphone. She's not like dancing around, she's not like flailing around. She's just there and, and, and you can kind of see everything that's happening on her face, you know? And like, I don't know how that played in the theater, but I mean.

[A]

I didn't see it live with her because I was eight. I was really introduced to Natasha Richardson that year from a little known movie called the Parent Trap. Ever heard of her?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. She's so good in that the fact that she was, she was like promoting the Parent Trap while doing cabaret at night is, like, amazing to me. But she. I eventually went to the library to watch her and it is still my favorite Sally, followed by Emma Stone, who was also an incredible Sally. And I. Yeah, I'll tie them together in a second. But Natasha Richardson, Sally Bowles, and if you ever go and listen to the cast recording and you listen to her, Don't Tell Mama or her mein hair. What makes her Sally work is that vocally she's not a powerhouse like Liza, but she can carry a tune. Like, her voice is not unpleasant. Yeah, she carries enough of a tune, it's pleasant enough that you listen to the songs and it's not a hardship. But also when her Sally's on stage, you cannot tell her that she's not the one. Her Sally loves to perform. So when you listen to her in Don't Tell Mama, she is having so much fun with those lyrics and with that audience, and that's what makes her so intoxicating. You're like, oh, that's why you got hired. Because when you're on, people can't take their eyes off of you. You'll never get a record deal, but you'll be the headliner here until you drop.

[B]

Right? Right.

[A]

Yeah. And with her version of the title song, she's trying to find a way back to that mentality for the beginning of the number. And you can sort of see that it's pretty, that she's struggling to do it. She's. She has a smile on her face, but it's. It's plastered and, and she's singing it as it's written, but it's like she's kind of holding on a little bit for dear life. And then she gets to the bridge. And it's the first time, as far as I'm aware, that that bridge ever became a turning point for Sally's. Because usually it's the final chorus. When it gets quieter, though, what good is sitting? That's usually the moment where everything turns. But the Elsie bridge is with Natasha, like, it becomes a moment where it's. It's almost as if it's not part of the song. It's an inner monologue that she's having.

[B]

Yeah. And for me, I mean, as a viewer and a listener, that, to me, feels like the most potent, like, part of the song because it's. She's relating to this other person that represents something to her. Right. Because what's this remind me of? The story of Elsie in that moment.

[A]

The story of Elsie sounds like a novel that I should be writing.

[B]

The story of Elsie.

[A]

The story of Elsie. Elsie in the bridge, if we're to take it at face value, it's the story of a roommate she had who basically was a party girl and possibly even a call girl of some sort. And she dies. And. And the neighbors don't mourn her. They look at her and they're like, well, you know, serves her right. She was a booze hound and a slut. But Sally saw her, and she was like. Sees her laid out dead, and she's like, that's the most beautiful person I've ever seen.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And ties it back to the chorus, because the chorus of what good is sitting alone in your room? She goes that. She goes. I think about Elsie and I think of what she used to say to me, which was that, what good is sitting alone in your room? And then it goes to the end of the. As for me. As for me, I made my mind up back in Chelsea when I go. I'm going like, Elsie. And it's basically that Sally has taken the wrong moral lesson from Elsie's passing, whereas most people would see her as a cautionary tale of, oh, you need to get your act together and wise up before this world eats you. And Sally looks at it as if, I'm going out. I'm going out guns blazing, partying till the lights go out.

[B]

Yeah. And I think what's so beautiful about that is, like, within the context of, like, rising fascism, it's like, well, they're gonna drag me to the camp any minute now, so I might as well just, like, have a good time.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Or, like, and in the face of this, I'm just gonna, like, I can't take my life seriously. I Can't be a domesticated woman. Like, in this climate of the world, I have to just go on a suicide run. You know, it's like, whatever. I'm gonna have a good time until I can't anymore. And I think, like, in a normal time, that could. Could be seen as, like, immature and silly and reckless. But I think within the context of what's happening in the history of the play, in the world that they're living in, it's like, well, what other choice is there? And that's where the tension exists. Yeah.

[A]

And it's tragic because I think a lot of people. We're living in a time with art where I hate to say this, but a lot of young people with access to the Internet are trying to dictate what is good and what is bad art purely on a moralistic level of. Yeah, it's kind of problematic that so and so says or does this. And I'm like, yeah, that's the point. Well, behaved people make terrible drama. I always say, if your relationship is fodder for, like, a movie or a play, you're in a bad relationship. You want to be in one that would be so boring to reality shows.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And Sally. What makes Sally a compelling character is that she is very unaware of a lot of things. And so her journey is one that's both frustrating and necessary. And with that title song, she ultimately makes a choice for herself. And it's a choice that we don't have to agree with, but the important thing is that it is her choice. So it is tragic that she chooses to stay behind because we know what's coming. But it is ultimately the correct decision that she gets the abortion. Because she is not a mothering type. Her relationship with Cliff is not one that a child can be founded on. I mean, the smartest thing she says, or the wisest thing she says is in the aftermath of that song, she and Cliff have that scene together. She comes back from the doctor without her fur coat. Cause she used it as payment. And she says, you know, we would be a disaster, Cliff. I would run off with the first exciting thing that came along. Or you would. And he says, no, I wouldn't have. Not if there was a child. And she goes to hold us together. What a terrible burden for a child, for sure. And that is like. It's when they. When we. When they say, don't have a baby to solve your relationship.

[B]

Right, right, right, right, right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's so easy. It's so easy to think that that would. I know you're like. Because you're like, well, it's just a higher purpose. And it's like. But it's built on sand, you know? And I think that's what's so interesting about the interpretation of Cliff sexuality. Because it's like, well, how do these things line up with these two people? Can they coexist in the way that, like. Because at least in the. In the. In the old. In the. In the latest revival, what I felt was that it felt like they were playing house.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For like so much of it. And I was like, well, what is this actually built on? Do they actually like each other? How do they like each other? What's the transaction of their relationship? It felt slightly unclear to me. So the whole. But it. There was a moment where I felt like, oh, they're. They're like. They're flirting with like traditionalism in some way. But there's no way of maintaining that between these two people or something.

[A]

No, absolutely. What makes it tricky is when the show originally opened, Cliff was straight, just full blown straight. And they just had a romance and she became flighty and Sally and all depressed by the domestication of their situation. And in the movie, he becomes bisexual, but more sort of like, I'm straight, but for the right guy, I'll get a little half naked. And the revival that Greg did, they tried to make the bisexuality more fluid. And then in the 90s, Masteroff and Kanderneb, because with the Sam Mendes production. Sorry, the Sam Mendes slash Rob Marshall production. I want to make that clear, they did a little reworking of the show and that script is now the template that we do forever now. Because certain songs that we know from the movie have not been put into the show permanently that weren't there to begin with. Maybe this time. And Mein Hair and the Money song were not in a stage show originally. Those got placed in and other songs got cut. And book wise, the real thing they did was they went full blown with Cliff that Cliff is gay, but that is a part of himself that he is suppressing because it's the 1930s and for a minute, once he gets to Berlin for the last breath of party, exorbitant fluidity. There's a little bit of a misunderstanding. In fact, I think the stage agent synopsis was wrong. I believe Cabaret actually begins in 33. I think that's when it began. And a lot of productions will sort of flash forward. In the epilogue, when Cliff leaves Berlin, it's like, well, now it's 1944 and there are Camps, which is not the case. Like, Hitler has not been elected chancellor yet when Cabaret ends, but the Nazi party is rising. And when Cliff gets to Berlin, the idea is sort of, oh, now that you're here, you're not in traditionalist America. You're in Berlin. Like, this is the city of sex. Like, you can make. You can. A guy. No one's going to bat an eye. So he does for a second, but then he kind of, as you said, like, he and Sally have a connection. They have a flirtation. And because they sort of have this, this natural fit of. They can sort of. Yes. And each other. They understand each other in a lot of ways. That playing house is fun and easy for about a month, but. But he isn't straight. They have sex a couple of times. It probably gets less successful with each time they do it. And he's kind of viewing her as his best friend as well as, like, this person he can save, which is another mentality you should never have in a relationship.

[B]

Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no. Hell no.

[A]

No. You don't want to save somebody and you don't want to, you know, try to have a baby to fix the relationship. Oh, the stories. I could tell you, Thomas. The story.

[B]

Me too. Me too. But we won't get into that.

[A]

No, this, this, basically everybody, this podcast is an excuse for Tom and I to meet and become friendly so we can then get a drink off mic and then we share our secrets.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. Then we, Then we go into the, the depths of relationship. Relationship failures.

[A]

Into the stand underneath the sand castles.

[B]

That's right. That's right. Yeah. But I, I, Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's funny. The, the other thing, I think, which sort of, from an outsider perspective, looking in, and I think you remarked about it with the, with the prison garb that the MC wore in the Alan Cumming version was that it had the pink triangle on felt like. And there's allusions to, like, him just having sex with women and men. And, you know, I think in the script, but, but there. The other image that I remember seeing from that production was when he sings I don't Care Much. Is that the name of the song where he's, like, in a slip, like a woman's gown or like a slip gown?

[A]

Yeah. Alan Cumming is. I don't think Eddie Redmayne was in the slip, but.

[B]

No, no, I think Eddie Redmayne was.

[A]

In the suit, but, yeah, Cumming was in the. Was in the slip.

[B]

Yeah. So I think that Was a like, is that do from the musical perspective? Is there a remark on that? Or is that an inter. Was that a particular interpretation?

[A]

So that song was cut out of town originally, and they brought it back. I think it was first brought back in the 80s revival to give Joel Gray another thing to sing. I should actually check on that. I shouldn't be just saying things and then hoping that the listeners will believe me. I should actually know if that's true or not. But when Alan Cumming did it in the 90s revival, I think the headline was less that he was in a slip and the headline was more just that he was singing that song.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because people didn't really have any historical attachment to it. There was no traditionalist or. Yeah, it was in the 80s revival. Go me sometimes. I love how Rain man my brain is. Pull that out of my butt. And yes, but so with Alan Cumming, it was more so like, oh, they. They put the song in and that was the headline. And I think that with Cumming, what made his performance so special, because for 30 years at that point, it was just Joel Gray. And part of that is the movie. The movie is so popular. And so his interpretation became how people just knew the mc. And so with coming, it was such a departure. And the first act was. He was impish in the way Joel Gray was, but in a more devilishly sexy kind of way. Like he. Or rather he was sexy without it being sexual, or he was sexual without being sexy. I'm not sure which one it is, but, like, it wasn't the kind of sexuality that felt threatening, like he was gonna do anything to you against your will. It was just like he was. It was like joke sexy. And as the show continued, his commentary on the action was very clearly, like, anti Nazi. There's the. The image they do at the end of Act 1 in the Mendy's revival is when they're doing the Tomorrow Belongs to Me number. He was on a top platform where the orchestra was in his trench coat. And he turned around, bent over and flipped up his jacket. And on his butt cheek was the swastika symbol, sort of like, Nazis, kiss my ass. And then at the top of Act 2, there's a can can number with all the Kit Kat girls that he showed up in as a Can Can Kit Kat girl. So the dress, I think, actually was. I don't know if it was the same dress as that number or not, but we had already kind of established that he was up for anything or he was down for anything. So that number for me, it always felt sort of like the. The fluidity and the fuckery that he had done before was now kind of almost like a sad little clown, because he was sort of worn out. He looked like he was coming down from a heroin high. His eyes were baggy, and he was crooning it like it was three in the morning. And he had been sort of keeping everyone awake all this time. So it wasn't like a mockery of gender. It was. It almost sort of felt like all of the gender fluidity, excitement earlier in the show was there, but now it was sad.

[B]

Right? Yeah. I mean, listening to the. The recording, because I've listened to that song a lot. I like that song a lot.

[A]

That's a good song.

[B]

And I like his performance of that song a lot. And I think there is, like, such a deep sadness that is brought forward in that song. I mean, when I think about it, that's what I think about. It's just like very, very sad. Grief, longing. And I. And it's funny that we're talking about, like, the sexuality of the emcee, because I felt like the Eddie Redmayne MC had no sexuality. It was like. It was like he was, like, celibate or something.

[A]

Yeah. He was kind of asexual and.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which, I don't know that you thought it brought about. Like, it was like a puppet, you know, it was like sort of this dull kind of. He could be anything to anyone kind of thing. Yeah.

[A]

And it's part of that is also in the design with, like, helmet hair. And also the way he would sort of be angular, like a marionette. I didn't particularly like it, but it was a choice that they stuck with. And I admire, you know, making a strong choice and sticking with it.

[B]

Yeah. It was a big swing, which I always appreciate.

[A]

Yeah. The MC has become a role almost as difficult as Sally to not necessarily be successful with. You can be a successful MC pretty easily because you have a lot of great songs and the audience wants to be on your side from the get go. Like with Vilka Men, that number is designed to set you up for success. But it is difficult as an MC to have a point of view on it that doesn't feel forced now, because we've now had the impish, clownish puppety, like Joel Gray. And by puppetee, I don't mean like the Eddie Redmayne puppetee. I mean, like, he just. He looks like a puppet that's come to life. He doesn't look like anyone's Controlling him. He just looks like a marionette come to life or a dummy come to life. And then you have Alan Cummings, who is kind of a. A stinker, but also like overly sexual gay best friend kind of mc, which makes you endear yourself to him. And then Eddie Redmaynes is both of those, and yet neither. Like, he's so sexless, but he also wants to be your best friend, but he also wants to be a puppet. And he also wants to represent Berlin, Berlin's counterculture only to conform to traditionalist robot, cult like mentality. I just remember seeing it, and I saw it twice, and the second time I was like, let me. Let me actually look at this more shrewdly to see if I'm absorbing this properly. Because that production worked for a good number of people in a way that I just sort of. I wonder if the problem is me, you know?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel the same way. I was like, I don't think the problem's me.

[A]

It's never you.

[B]

It's never me. No. But I think, like, obviously what I. What I appreciate, again, like, the big swing thing. Look, if I, like, I really did not like it. Like, I was like, I don't like this. Just as a piece of. To be honest, like, the only thing I love, like, deeply loved about it was the BB Neuorth Steven Skybell relationship. Like, I thought, because I felt like in a sea of a lot of. And I loved the design. Like, I thought the design was so well executed, but it just felt like there wasn't a lot of, like, heart and soul.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Except for, like, when those two came on, I was like, oh, this is love. Like, this is, like beating heart stuff that appeals to me and real and true conflict. Right. It's like, this person is a German woman. This man is a German Jewish man. They want to be together. But because of the situation, there's hesitation and there's judgment and there's violence. So I think, like, it felt to.

[A]

Me.

[B]

That half of the show was very symbolic and half of. Or like. Or like. And like 40% of it was deeply moving.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it didn't quite gel.

[A]

Yeah. I think because the Schneider Schulz storyline exists almost purely in the real world, it helps that no matter what production you see, they are going to land because they don't. They're not victims to, like, a director's vision, you know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Although there were a couple moments that Rebecca Frecknell had that I was like, what did you have to do that? Because you know how that that stage, it was the three part turntable that also could like rise and lower. Yeah. So when Beebee did her big number in Act 2, the what would you do? When he rose to that wedding cake? I was like, what are you doing?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I felt, Yeah, I was. That felt a little out of place to me too. I was like. I was like, this is a big moment. For this particular moment.

[A]

It's like doing, I don't know, like, and I am telling you from Dream Girls and putting Effie White in a harness and having her suddenly like, defy gravity. I was like, what are you doing?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but just to go back quickly to the mc, what I do think now is like, as an actor who people are like, well, you. You want it? What do you want to do? Like, what's your dream role? Which is this, this, this. And I'm always like, well, I don't really have them or just like, they've kind of escaped me. Like I've aged out. Like. But like, they're like, well, would you want to play Hamlet one day? And I'm like, yeah, but that. It feels like there's always this pressure and I feel like now with the mc because it. Because there have been two very iconic actors who have made very iconic statement, bold performances out of that. That like, there feels like, well, you got to have your take.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I think maybe wasn't necessarily the original. Like you said before, when Joel Gray did it the first time, he was just the emcee. The second time they brought him back, he was the star.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, as opposed to. Well, what is the actual play about? It's. No, now it's a star vehicle for. And that's why I think now it's like they just shove people in.

[A]

Yeah. And I think it's to the detriment of the show because it is really an ensemble piece. It is, I would argue, five real principal actors and then three or four major supporting roles like the mc, Sally Cliff, Herr Schultz and Fraulein Schneider. Like, those are our core five and the MC is a core five. Not because it's his story, but because he, by being this omniscient presence, can sort of weave in and out of the proceedings. He has a lot of stage time, but it's never really about him. And when you do star castings with that, it becomes about him. And that throws off the dynamics of the. Of the production for me.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Interestingly enough, I tend to gravitate towards the roles that people Find like problematic or adult. Not problematic in terms of morals, but problematic in terms of like, oh, that's not a great role. Who wants to play that role? And I'm always sort of like, I don't know, let me at it. And that's sort of why I would kind of love to play Cliff. I feel like Cliff is a role that you're never gonna get an award for it. But if you do not work as Cliff, the whole production suffers. And I've seen productions where the Cliff did not work. And sometimes it was the wrong actor in the role, sometimes it is the fact that the director misunderstands the relationship between Cliff and Sally. And so the heart that is supposed to be there is gone. But a lot of great stage actors have played Cliff. Two of my favorites. Who did it in the Mendy's production? John Benjamin Hickey did it originally opposite Natasha Richardson and then Michael Hayden did it for a while in that run. And Michael Hayden is one of my faves. But you need someone who is personable because ultimately the title I am a Camera. People always think I am a camera. And they think, oh yes, Julia Harris, Sally Bowles, she is not the camera. Cliff is the camera. That is the point. It's that he, his, his gift and his curse is that he is to see and observe everything and never really be a part of it. But he can survive and jot it all down. And the danger that he has is there gets to VP a point in Cabaret where he's a part of it for a little too long and he suffers and his work suffers and he wakes up just in time to escape and be able to tell the story. But you need to have it be someone who is personable, someone who has chemistry with Sally and the actor playing Ernst. And they have to be a bit of a well meaning innocent and a well meaning shit, honestly. And have someone who can struggle a bit with their sexuality. They can't just be a blank slate. I think a lot of people think you can just sort of cast Cliff as whatever because he's not as personality heavy as Sally or he doesn't have the numbers like the MC does. It's like, well, he is ultimately the glue and it's a key component.

[B]

Yeah. And it's funny as you're talking about it, I feel like in the current climate of everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think in the theater, Right. I think there may be this reluctance to the actor playing the struggle. Do you know what I mean by that?

[A]

Speak more on it.

[B]

So I feel like it's like we want to see someone being accepting of themselves. Right. But to actually play it where it's like, no, I want to cover this up. I want to find a way. Am a gay man, but I don't want to be open with it as much as I would have ultimately liked to be. And if there is, like, a reluctance to approach it in that way, which makes it complex.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Where we. Where. Where we do, we want to see a celebration of someone's identity as opposed to a struggle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah. No, I get that. That was. So I wrote a play, Tom. I don't know if. I don't know if you heard about it in Variety, but I wrote a play, and we've been developing it. It's been going well. But, like, on more than one occasion, a piece of pushback I've gotten is a character who claims to be bisexual and other characters have opinions on his sexuality and whatnot. And I'd had people say, like, well, is that really what you want to show the world about bisexuality? I said, that's not what I'm showing the world about bisexuality. I'm showing one person's situation.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I would hope that. I would hope that people maybe who find themselves in similar situations can see it and recognize the messiness of it and get themselves out, people who aren't and see that and go, oh, God, I never want to be that or have anyone say that about me. Like, I really want to be able to say with my full chest who I am. And the thing about Cliff is, like, it's not really his story, again, because he is the camera, but it's more that Cabaret gives him stuff to play, even if it's not necessarily the ultimate message. Like, Cliff's sexuality is not the story of Cabaret. Cliff's relationship with Sally is not the story. His survival is not the story. It is rather, this outsider who is coming in and reacting to all of these other people who have been here so much longer than he has, and watching how they are watching him slowly, you know, get mixed up in all of it and then ultimately pull himself out and be the one who can, you know, keep the flame of this story to us. In the end, it's not what he goes through personally is not the thing that we are gonna remember. It's what he saw that we're gonna remember. And so he doesn't have to necessarily have a moment where he goes, I am gay, and that's okay. And I think anyone who would want that from him in cabaret is taking away the wrong lessons from cabaret. It's like, exactly. It's like he could possibly deal with his sexuality more because it's sort of. It's more that. But when we meet him, he's kind of suppressed it. He has a moment where he's allowed to act on it and he does. And then with Sally, I feel like it's less that he goes, oh, I don't want to be gay. I'm going to be straight now and play act. And more sort of him going, huh, I'm pretty sure I'm gay, but, like, there's something about this girl. And maybe. Maybe I can get away with being straight for a little bit. And I think what makes him sweet is that when the sex falls away and Sally gets depressed, he's actually happier because he's like, oh, now I have a best friend. And. Which is ultimately what they were always meant to be. And he. He makes a lot of decisions that he thinks are helpful to the family that they're going to have. It's why he's not launders all this money for Fritz. Not for Fritz, for Ernst. And then when push comes to shove, he stands by his principles and he stops doing all of this for who he realizes is the enemy. So we understand that he has morals and he has a backbone, but now he's in a fight or flight situation and it's like, it's, screw my sexuality, screw principles, screw making money. Now the goal is just to fucking leave.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And so he is pragmatic and idealistic at the same time. And. Whereas idealism, I think gets the better of him is when he speaks to someone like Fraulein Schneider. Whereas pragmaticism. Pragmatism right there. I think.

[B]

So, yeah.

[A]

Where that works for him is when he tries to bring Sally along for survival and she says, no, but, yeah, I don't. I think that people always put him by the wayside because he doesn't really have a song, because he doesn't really have, like, all these bold colors. But I'm like, there's. There's stuff there.

[B]

There's a lot of stuff there. And I think. And it is a hard, like. I think it's always like, even talking about, like, stereophonic. Like, Grover is like the audience. He's. He's the observer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and like, I think it's hard to play those parts because it's like, well, I. I can just so easily become a filter for the audience. And that's what I represent to them as opposed to like what's my actual part in this story and how do I execute that in the best way that lifts up the whole narrative of the thing. Yeah, but, and, but it's funny that you talk about the relationship with Ernst. Right. Ernst is a character because that's like that. I feel like that falls away completely whenever I see this. And there's not a lot of like real estate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, but it's an interesting relationship.

[A]

I think, I think that because there isn't a lot of stage time between them, it allows doors to open for interpretation. That sort of like that is the double edged sword of. It's not a lot of material. It's like, well, yeah. And because there's not a lot of material, nothing is ever said outright of what this could be. So you can come at it from different ways. And I feel like in, maybe not in this last production, but maybe in the Mendy, I feel like in the Mendy's production when Bill Heck was, was Cliff, it felt there was a little bit of a homoeroticism between Ernst and Cliff of sort of possibly like if, if, if Ernst stayed an hour longer for a lesson and they had some schnapps, like who knows what could happen. But as it stands, they're just sort of always kind of friends. And, and I feel like with Ernst, he plays a part more sort of similar to Cliff of. He is meant to be a part of the tapestry to make a statement. We spent all of Act 1 not thinking much about him, like, oh, he's a nice enough guy. He introduces Cliff to the club, he gets him lodgings, he's his first pupil, he gets some other students and like he gives him an opportunity for money. And for all we know, Ernst could be part of the revolution against the Nazi party. We don't know. It's not until the engagement party when he takes off his coat and the swastikas revealed that we realize what it's all been for.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. And so once once that is revealed, he stops being useful to our core characters.

[B]

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. They're like, he's just, he's just a Nazi.

[A]

Yeah, it's like, well, yeah, he's a Nazi now, so we're not going to spend much time with him anymore. He'll come back one last time to make a statement and, and, and provide Cliff a moment to be a little violent. But also, you know, Ernst draws his own line in the sand as well when he realizes that Herr Schultz is Jewish and has his dialogue with Fraulein Schneider. What is so fascinating about Ernst in that engagement party scene? So I don't know if this is coming out before or after the How I Learned to Drive episode, but when we talk about villains and we talk about gaslighting, I have actually pointed out your scene at the end of Act 1 of Stereophonic. A lot of what I liked about that scene was Peter not necessarily lying, but twisting facts to his advantage. But he's not doing it intentionally. He's not like having this master plan of how he's going to manipulate the person in front of him. He genuinely believes everything he's saying. It's because of how his brain feels about himself that it has, it has taken the truthful events manipulated in his head so he can now spin out a narrative to his partner. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When they're talking about their relationship, when they're talking about, you know, getting married, whatever. It's like when he's talking about the guitar, like, I, you know, I sold the guitar because you weren't using it. I wasn't using it because I was working. It's like you told me that I should not work and you should like these, those kind of things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Ernst is unable to take the fact that he likes Herrschultz, that Herrschultz has been kind to him, that Herr Schultz is nice to the person that is his friend, who's Fraulein Schneider. And the moment he hears Jewish, his brain takes all those facts and re. Spins it. And rather than tell Fraulein Schneider, I'm, you know, I'm reporting you guys. You're on your nasty selves. He pulls her aside and talks to her earnestly as a. Earnest, earnestly as a friend, and says, like, it is in your best interest not to marry this man. And he's like, I'm telling. And, and it's, and it's not of a. Oh, my, my. I understand, but my friends would understand. He's like, no, no, no. I am, as your friend, I am telling you what you're, what you're about to do is foolish and illegal and dangerous. And like, I'm not going to tell you what to do. But. And, and in his mind, he thinks he's doing a mitzvah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's what makes it so chilling.

[B]

I think so. Yeah. Because it's like I'm trying to do something that I think is good.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that. And productive and to keep someone safe. And it's. That's, that is. I do. Yeah. Now that you frame it that way, I think it's. It, it's. It makes me in like that moment better and, and makes me. Because that's at the very end of act one.

[A]

Yeah. It's right before our friendly Boardhouse prostitute takes out her whatchamacallit, the. What's that instrument? The accordion. She takes out her accordion and they start to sing it together.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Which I think that's the complexity of it. Right. It's like these are human beings living in a system where morality and care and friendship gets totally, like, refracted and warped and so attached to, like, survival and being like, well, how am I going to. How am I going to survive? How are you going to survive? How? Like, that's, that's premium. And I think what's great about the musical itself is that. The storm of Nazism is just encroaching and encroaching and encroaching and encroaching. And you watch people scrambling and making choices. Like, Sally makes her choice, Cliff makes his choice. You know, it's like you're watching people making choices because it's inevitable.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's like, it's like I have to do something for myself, which I think is what the whole thing with Sally is. It's like I have to look out for me and I have to make the choice for myself. I can't make a choice for the baby. I can't make a choice for Cliff. I can't make a choice for any. Anything else. Yeah.

[A]

You know, and, and Sally's choice to not go with him, I think is. It's, it's a, it's many a thing because Sally has made it very clear that she is someone who does not do well by domestic life. There's a lot of, there is a lot of interpretation one can do about who Sally is, where she came from. And I don't know what they decided with this last production with Galen, with Jesse, how they decided to do Sally. The implication I got was that Sally had borderline personality disorder because she would be super up and then like super down in five seconds flat. And I didn't, I didn't care for it. What I liked about the, the interpretation that Natasha Richardson did, which by, through relation, Emma Stone also did. Their interpretation of Sally was. This was a woman who probably came from a middle class upbringing in England, maybe even upper middle class. Like, she wasn't a debutante, but, like, was comfortable. She was probably from like a nice enough village and she always fancied herself exceptional and interesting. And. And each passing year, she would do. She would add more and more quirks to herself to make herself more interesting. And so she left England and traveled Europe, landing in Berlin to escape the life of domesticity that, to her, felt like a prison. In a lot of ways, Sally is the reality of what men think the manic pixie dream girl is because it is ultimately a facade. It's not real. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean?

[B]

You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar.

[A]

You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire. Oh, hello, it is Matt from the future. Just letting you know that we have come to the end of part one of our deep dive on Cabaret with Tom Fasenko. But not to worry, Part two will be coming out next week as well as a couple of reviews that I will be reading that we had posted on Apple podcasts. I will start off next week's episode with that before jumping back into part two. As we conclude, I just want to let you guys know, you can still join the Discord. You can join the substack. The Discord channel is blowing up these days with ticket advice and theater recommendations as shows are starting to release tickets at the box office for the spring season, as well as some fun polls I've been doing on Instagram with Tony performances. People have been discussing the results of that on there. You can also join the substack for any written content of the podcast if you haven't yet. And you are available March 6th Friday, March 6th at 7pm at Greenroom 42 is our next live show, our next musical live show titled Sondheim Weber Kopli, A birthday threesome. So it's as you would expect. It's a sexual birthday party celebrating Sondheim, Andrew Led Webber and me. And yeah, that's it for this one. Tom does request at the end of part two, spoiler alert. One of the divas he would like to close out with these deep dives. So for the end of part one, we are closing out with. I swear to God, this was Tom's choice. GD Kyun Kianzi will be closing us out with part one. So we will see you guys next week for part two.

[B]

Rags, rags It's a land of freedom we had to run to and now we're free just like everyone to wear rags it's all day seeing them all day smelling them all day listening to peddlers belling them rag. Rag. I live in rag and so I'm bright in D.