Broadway Breakdown: Deep Dive – CABARET (Part 1) w/ Tom Pecinka
Host: Matt Koplik | Date: February 5, 2026
Guest: Tom Pecinka (Tony-nominated for Stereophonic)

Episode Overview

In the first part of a deep dive into the iconic musical Cabaret, Matt Koplik welcomes actor Tom Pecinka for a passionate, expletive-laced exploration of the show’s origins, themes, and production history. Using their own backgrounds and viewing experiences as a jumping-off point, Matt and Tom dissect the show’s legacy, evolving interpretations, and acting challenges—especially focusing on the roles of Sally Bowles, the Emcee, and Cliff Bradshaw.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Introductions & First Encounters with Cabaret

• Both Matt (a self-proclaimed theater gay from NYC) and Tom (born and raised on Long Island) share how Cabaret entered their lives:
  • Tom was aware of Cabaret during Alan Cumming's first run but only saw the show in-person with the recent revival starring Eddie Redmayne and Gayle Rankin.

    “I like the dark musicals. I like the gritty stuff. So for me, that was my viewpoint on it.” – Tom [03:53]

  • Matt saw the original Sam Mendes/Rob Marshall production as a child, reflecting on seeing Brooke Shields as Sally Bowles and the decadent novelty of ordering chocolate-covered strawberries at the theater.

    “I was that bougie bitch even then, Tom.” – Matt [10:05]

2. Cabaret’s Enduring Allure, Star Casting, and Major Revivals

• Tom recalls working with multiple actors who played "Cliff," and they discuss Broadway’s penchant for rotating celebrities into the Emcee and Sally roles (e.g., Alan Cumming, Michelle Williams).
  • The pair reflect on the show's ability to attract major star power and the way this can tilt the show's focus towards the MC.

3. Synopsis & Key Themes of Cabaret

• Matt delivers a cheeky, condensed synopsis, emphasizing the show's historic context: Weimar Berlin, the rise of Nazism, sexual openness, and the “concept musical” structure.

  “Cabaret takes place from 1929 to 1930... Berlin is transitioning from a center of underground avant garde cultural epicenter to the rise of the Nazi Party. Fun stuff.” – Matt [15:02]

• They debate Sally Bowles’ talent and how her perceived abilities radically alter the tone and status of the Kit Kat Club.

  “If she’s really talented, then this club is a place where people go to see entertainment. If she’s not, then... it’s just a basement garbage place where people just go to get drunk and have sex.” – Tom [18:23]

4. Origins: Book, Play, and Real-Life Inspirations

• Matt contextualizes Cabaret's evolution: from Christopher Isherwood's Goodbye to Berlin, to I Am a Camera, to stage musical (via Joe Masteroff, Kander & Ebb, and Hal Prince).
• Sally Bowles’ real-life counterpart resented her depiction as a tragic party girl. The discussion turns to how various productions and critics wrestle with Sally’s ambiguous abilities and persona.

5. Performance Lineage: Liza Minnelli, Natasha Richardson, and the Changing Sally

• Fascinating trivia: Cabaret's score was originally tailored for Liza Minnelli, fresh from her Tony win in Flora the Red Menace.
• Hal Prince ultimately passed on her for the original stage production, feeling she was “too good” a singer, leading the writers to create a less vocally powerful Sally.

  “He also thought that she was too good of a singer, and he wanted someone who was a bit shakier...” – Matt [32:14]

• The evolution from Liza’s powerhouse film Sally to Natasha Richardson’s raw, vulnerable stage portrayal is examined as a paradigm shift.

6. Concept Musical & Reflections in Staging

• Matt explains the “concept musical” format: themes over linear plot, the Kit Kat Club as liminal space/commentary device.
• The famous use of mirrors to implicate the audience (“what would you do?”), and subsequent productions becoming more immersive or environmental with each iteration.

7. Cabaret’s Production & Revival History

• Timeline breakdown:
  • Original 1966 Hal Prince production: revolutionary, but subsequent attempts to restage it decades later felt stale.
  • 1998 Sam Mendes/Rob Marshall revival: environmental, gritty, and set the standard for “radical” reimaginings in musical theater.
  • 2014 revival: brought back Alan Cumming, but reactions were mixed; attempts to “out-Mendes Mendes.”
  • Current London/Broadway revival: environmental to the extreme; some critics felt the bold design lacked emotional heart.

8. Interpretation of Roles

a) Sally Bowles

• The agony and ecstasy of acting Sally: must balance bravura with emotional wreckage, “bury something and cover it with something else.”

  “For me, my preference is always bury something and cover it with something. Like, that's just my acting preference. It’s what I like to do.” – Tom [47:38]

• The “Cabaret” number itself is a barometer for the Sally interpretation: does she unravel during the song, or fight to keep up the mask?

  “She’s trying to find a way back to that mentality for the beginning of the number... she’s holding on a little bit for dear life.” – Matt [55:50]

b) The Emcee

• The Emcee’s evolving symbolism: from Joel Grey’s impish, sinister Nazi-proxy, to Alan Cumming’s queer, tragic, victimized figure, to Eddie Redmayne’s puppet-like, asexual performer in the latest revival.

  “The Emcee can be played by anyone. And also, his reason for existing can change...” – Matt [44:49] “I felt like the Eddie Redmayne MC had no sexuality. It was like he was, like, celibate or something.” – Tom [71:05]

c) Cliff

• Often discounted as a “blank slate” or passive observer (“the camera”), they argue Cliff’s chemistry, complexity, and suppressed sexuality are fundamental to grounding the show emotionally.

  “If you do not work as Cliff, the whole production suffers. And I've seen productions where the Cliff did not work… he is ultimately the glue and it's a key component.” – Matt [78:15]

9. Supporting Cast: The Beating Heart

• Tom and Matt agree the Schneider/Schultz subplot always packs the most consistent dramatic punch, with real-world stakes (particularly in the recent revival with Bebe Neuwirth and Steven Skybell).

  “That half of the show was very symbolic... and like 40% of it was deeply moving.” – Tom [75:04]

10. Villainy, Gaslighting, and Moral Ambiguity

• The character Ernst embodies the chilling banality of evil (“I am, as your friend, I am telling you what you’re about to do is foolish and illegal and dangerous... I think he's doing a mitzvah.” – Matt [91:02]).
• They discuss the importance of moral ambiguity, both in character choices (Sally’s abortion, Cliff’s survival) and in refusing to impose simplistic “positive representation” on complex issues.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sally Bowles:

  “Her Sally loves to perform. So when you listen to her in ‘Don’t Tell Mama,’ she is having so much fun with those lyrics and with that audience, and that’s what makes her so intoxicating... You’ll never get a record deal, but you’ll be the headliner here until you drop.” – Matt on Natasha Richardson [55:50]

• On Changing Revivals:

  “With Cabaret... every production of Cabaret you would see would always be like, how controversial can we make it? How sexual can we make it?” – Matt [38:00]

• On the Danger of Overproducing the Emcee:

  “It’s like the Joker or something. And then... Alan Cumming was the Emcee for 20 years.” – Tom [40:32]

• On Cliff’s Complicated Sexuality:

  “It's more that Cabaret gives him stuff to play, even if it's not necessarily the ultimate message... Cliff's sexuality is not the story of Cabaret... It's what he saw that we're going to remember.” – Matt [82:17]

• On Sally’s Decision:

  “It is tragic that she chooses to stay behind because we know what's coming. But it is ultimately the correct decision that she gets the abortion. Because she is not a mothering type.” – Matt [59:55]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:27] – Cabaret first memories and Tom’s initial exposure
• [10:02] – Matt’s anecdote about attending as a precocious child
• [15:02] – Matt’s irreverent plot summary & thematic breakdown
• [19:03] – Concept musical explained & Kit Kat Club as liminal space
• [24:06] – Liza Minnelli’s original connection to the show
• [35:20] – Director-driven productions and the quest for reinvention
• [47:24] – Approaches to Sally’s “Cabaret” number
• [55:50] – Natasha Richardson’s approach: intoxication vs. vocal greatness
• [66:41] – Emcee’s gender, sexuality, and the addition of “I Don’t Care Much”
• [71:05] – Redmayne’s “celibate/puppet” Emcee: divisive interpretations
• [78:15] – The unsung importance and pitfalls of Cliff Bradshaw
• [89:47] – Ernst’s kindness weaponized—banality of evil in action

Summary Table: Interpreting Core Roles

| Role | Traditional | Mendes Era / Cumming | Recent/London | Takeaway | |------------|--------------|----------------------|---------------|-----------------------------| | Sally | British, ambiguous talent, tragic | Raw, damaged, “nervy” | Very fragile or unstable; emotionally exposed | Success rides on “mask” & journey | | Emcee | Impish, Nazi proxy (Grey) | Queer, tragic, sexual, political (Cumming) | Puppet, asexual, emotionless (Redmayne) | Extreme swings foster new interpretations | | Cliff | Straight “camera,” writer | Gay/bisexual, reluctant/complex | Understated observer; glue of show | Needs chemistry & subtlety | | Schneider/Schultz | Warm, tragic, always lands | Consistent | Consistent | Realistic, heartfelt subplot always endures |

Tone & Language

Maintaining Matt’s sardonic, opinionated, and enthusiastically profane tone throughout, the conversation is peppered with irreverence, deep-cut references, and genuine reverence for theatrical craft.

For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

If you haven’t listened but are fascinated by theater history, acting craft, or the cultural legacy of Cabaret, this episode offers:

• A candid, spirited education on the show’s journey
• Illuminating arguments about interpretation and representation
• Behind-the-scenes anecdotes about Broadway revivals, star casting, “problematic” but juicy roles, and what makes Cabaret still startlingly relevant
• A masterclass in unpacking complex characters— how Sally, the Emcee, and Cliff all become mirrors for their eras, performers, and us in the audience.

Stay tuned for Part 2, where Matt and Tom continue their deep dive into the evolution of Cabaret across eras, cultures, and artistic visions.