Deep Dive: CABARET (Part 2) w/ Tom Pecinka

Summary

Broadway Breakdown – Deep Dive: CABARET (Part 2) w/ Tom Pecinka
Date: February 12, 2026
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Tom Pecinka

---

Episode Overview

This episode continues Matt and Tom’s passionate, irreverent deep-dive into the musical Cabaret. Picking up from Part 1, they focus on dissecting character interpretations—especially Sally Bowles—layered performance choices, and the show’s enduring (and unsettling) impact. Along the way, they compare recent revivals, share insights on audience complicity, the evolution of theater criticism, and how Cabaret’s message feels shockingly current. The conversation is woven with sharp, funny asides, memorable theatrical anecdotes, and expert commentary on what makes Cabaret so unusually potent in the Broadway canon.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Complexity of Sally Bowles

• Sally’s “Bubble”:

  • Sally is often mistaken as a one-dimensional, "flighty" character. Matt criticizes productions that overplay her quirks or her pain, ignoring the balance between her fun, unpredictable nature and her harsh realities.

    “She wants so desperately to be different and be special. And ultimately, she really isn’t special… What she is, is she’s fun... She has an instinct to zig when everyone is zagging, which makes her unpredictable.” —Matt (02:26)

  • He contrasts performances, noting Michelle Williams as too isolated (remaining in a “bubble” until the title song), while others like Natasha Richardson mixed detachment with connection.

• Playing Facets vs. One Note:

  • Tom discusses wanting to see Sally’s full range: sometimes annoying, sometimes lovable. Overemphasizing insufferability undermines her complexity:

    “I want to fall in love with her in some way… I want to see her be annoying, and then I want to see, like, oh, no. But I like that part of you…” —Tom (05:01)

  • The role’s difficulty comes from needing a true “take,” not just hitting the archetypes.

2. Relating Character Work: From Stereophonic to Cabaret

• Finding Empathy in “Difficult” Roles:

  • Drawing from his role as Peter in Stereophonic, Tom shares lessons in resisting villain stereotypes. He emphasizes playing “one thing at a time” (vulnerability, then cruelty) and letting the audience reconcile the contradictions.

    “You can’t play two things at once. You have to play one thing and then play another. And the audience will put that together.” —Tom (09:46)

• Audience Reaction & Self-Image:

  • Both agree audiences often recoil when forced to examine their own potential for hypocrisy, complicity, or moral weakness—whether sitting with Peter or with Sally in immersive Cabaret stagings.

3. Abortion, Clarity, and Hard Choices

• Sally’s Only “Adult” Decision:

  • Sally’s choice to terminate her pregnancy is discussed as her single, clear-headed act, demonstrating painful self-awareness:

    “I actually think… it's the only moment in the whole show where she has clarity and she actually thinks of herself realistically… this baby has no shot, and… it would just be better to not have it. And that's ultimately what she decides. And it's… the one adult, rational decision that she makes.” —Matt (15:17)

• Symbolism & Sacrifice:

  • The fur coat—representation of Sally’s aspirations and self-worth—becomes a symbol of her final, serious sacrifice.

4. Audience Complicity, Discomfort, and the Mob

• Why “Cabaret” Stings in the Theater:

  • Tom: Being physically present for uncomfortable behavior (Sally, Peter, etc.) is uniquely challenging in theater versus TV/film’s safe distance.

    "I don't necessarily want to be in the same room with Sally sometimes… you're implicated in the event." —Tom (19:32)

  • Immersive productions (like the recent Kit Kat Club) amplify this feeling; the audience becomes a participant, not an observer.

• Recurring Relevance and the “Magic Trick” of Cabaret:

  • Cabaret’s popularity is surprising given its bleakness. Matt credits its success to being both seductive and subversive—the “magic trick” of luring people in for a good time, then delivering a gut-punch:

    “Cabaret entices and seduces you for the beginning, and then, like, the taste starts to get sour after a while, intentionally so.” —Matt (21:44)

  • Tom likens it to Les Misérables: while Les Mis ends with struggle and hope, Cabaret documents a society crushed and submitting—a cautionary “mirror.”

5. Audience Reactions to Controversial Scenes

• The “If You Could See Her” Dilemma:

  "The thing that's always sort of talked about is if you could see her. That number has had various reactions… in the 60s, audiences didn't understand that this was meant to be a commentary on the rise of anti Semitism… So they changed it..." —Matt (28:15)

  • The hosts discuss how audiences still wildly misread the intent, and how reactions to button lines (whether hoots of approval or shocked silence) can reflect people's true beliefs or discomforts.

• Performance vs. Participation:

  • Matt and Tom bemoan contemporary audiences who cheer for technical showstoppers, missing the dramatic context, feeding the “concert, not theater” mentality.

    “The point of musical theater, what makes it different from a concert is that it is actually a story through song and not just songs.” —Matt (33:13)

6. Critique of Theatrical Elitism, Accessibility, and Manners

• On the Value of Performance:

  • They lament preference for “half-baked” but popular efforts (Family Guy vs. South Park humor as an analogy) over crafted, meaningful theater.
  • Both agree: the work shouldn't be about checking a moral box (“slavery be bad”), but about honestly depicting humans trapped in, and by, systems.

• The High Cost of Broadway:

  • Tom describes how high ticket prices foster a “this better be worth it” mentality, making audiences more emotional, less open-minded.

• Audience Bad Behavior:

  • Both share war stories of cell phones and inappropriate stage-door rants, mainly blaming “boomers” for interruptions, and longing for past decorum:

    “If my grandmother… knows how to turn off her phone and remembers to do it before every show she sees—no one has any excuse whatsoever.” —Matt (51:11)

  • Tom: audience outbursts usually start genuine, but quickly turn performative (“proving their morality”).

7. The Character of Fraulein Schneider—Tragedy By Design

• Decisions and Survival:

  • Fraulein Schneider’s “So What?” philosophy sets up her final, heartbreaking decision to break off her engagement and weather another Nazi storm, sacrificing hope for pragmatic survival:

    “It is a devastatingly powerful line because even if she survives this next world war… it's at the expense of whatever optimism or happiness she might have still had in her.” —Matt (62:40)

• Humans Over Themes:

  • Both critique plays that prioritize “the issue” over individual impacts, praising Cabaret for keeping human choices at its core.

8. Cabaret’s Bleak Ending and Its Lasting Power

• Community vs. Mob:

  • Tom: a community builds, a mob destroys. He and Matt analyze Cabaret’s latest iconography—a vibrant club devolving into conformist, faceless uniformity.

    “In the beginning as like, they made this community and this club… by the end, you're like, oh, these are the people that are going to tear down or… just sit back while the machine just goes and… tears down the rest of it.” —Tom (79:43)

• Bleakness as a Warning:

  • The show denies viewers catharsis; instead, audiences leave with a gnawing sense of “how easily this can happen again,” and questions about their own potential for complicity.

9. Revival Culture, Interpretation, and the Blank Slate

• Why We Keep Returning to Cabaret:

  • The hosts celebrate revivals’ capacity for new meaning, comparing the MC’s interpretive possibilities to Hamlet:

    “You can bring whatever… It’s a bit of a blank slate… you can do whatever you want within boundaries, but I think it's ethereal in that way.” —Tom (95:50)

• Musicals That Withstand Abuse:

  • Matt: great shows like Cabaret (or Shakespeare) remain strong through endless directorial abuse—standards and structure matter.

• Cabaret’s Place in History:

  • The show is the start of the “concept musical”—paving the way for Company, Follies, etc.—because it succeeded artistically and commercially:

    “It's the show that opened the door for them to happen… Cabaret was able to do it in a way that made audiences want to see it.” —Matt (90:00)

• Hal Prince’s Directorial Legacy:

  • Tom and Matt discuss the legend’s leap from producer to director, and the unpredictable fate of critical darlings (or snubs) vs. popular success.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sally’s Reality:

  "People get so caught up in the flightiness of Sally that they play all of the quirks and none of the reality, or they want to play all of the pain and all of the drudgery and none of the lightness." —Matt (03:44)

• On the Audience’s Place:

  “That's what I love about theater… because the audience is implicated in the event.” —Tom (19:54)

• On Living With Bleakness:

  “The thing about Les Mis… it's an impressionist musical… Cabaret is about the details that get swept under this giant impression.” —Matt (71:48)

• On What Lasts in Theater:

  “It's always interesting to look back at movies or shows and see… what got all the praise that has not necessarily lasted.” —Matt (99:34)

• On Great Material:

  “Great musicals and great plays… You can, like, beat them up against the wall forever, and they just won't break.” —Tom (87:54)

---

Key Timestamps

• [02:26] — Sally Bowles’ contradictions: fun vs. insufferable
• [06:43] — Tom’s insights from Stereophonic; duality in performance
• [10:31] — “No one walks around thinking they're the villain.” The importance of character motivation
• [15:17] — Sally’s abortion: clarity, sacrifice, and adulthood
• [19:32] — Audience discomfort in immersive theater
• [28:15] — “If You Could See Her”: audience response through the decades
• [33:13] — The difference between concert and musical theater
• [51:11] — Cell phones and bad audience manners
• [62:40] — Fraulein Schneider, tragedy, and survival
• [79:43] — Community vs. mob; how Cabaret’s ending indicts conformity
• [87:54] — Why Cabaret remains unbreakable, always open to new interpretation
• [90:00] — Cabaret as the beginning of the concept musical, its historical significance
• [99:34] — Memory vs. critical reception: what shows last and why

---

Episode Ending & Callouts

• Tom expresses a desire to play the MC, comparing the part to Hamlet for its interpretive flexibility.
• They reflect on the evolution in attitudes towards Broadway replacements and the merits of star casting.
• The episode closes with Tom choosing Judy Kuhn and Judi Dench as their “Broadway divas” for the post-episode music.

---

For more Broadway Breakdown, reviews, and live events, join Matt on Substack, Instagram, or Discord.

Transcript

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, hello again. It's Matt from the future doing a nice intro for you for part two of our Cabaret Deep Dive with Tom Bisenka. Tom and I will be discussing Cabaret shortly, but before we get to that, I wanted to give do to the people who wrote reviews for the podcast on Apple Podcasts that I did not give to read live on air. So I just want to. I'm going to do two just so we can get right to the Deep dive, and I will do the other two at a later review episode. So without further ado, please play the Light in the Piazza Overture. Five stars. Great show. There is a new hardest working man in show business and his name is Matt Koplik. Fun, entertaining, informative, Recommended. Thank you very much. Thank you. Dr. Jack Rowles. Next one. Five stars. This podcast is astonishing. Now, I don't really write reviews, but I felt like this is a long time coming. I've been listening to this podcast since late 2020. One longtime listener, and I have been a devoted listener since. Matt, you have such a weird way of making every theater nerd feel like they have a friend.

[Tom Pasinka]

Oh, thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

You are someone who I can say I greatly respect and admire. I cannot take those compliments, in truth. So I'm hearing you. I'm just not absorbing it. You don't really know me and I don't really know you, but I want to say thank you. I'm sorry this is so long, girl. If you think that's a long review, you've been listening to this podcast for five years now, or four and a half years now. You know what long is. Come on. All right. And with that in mind, let us jump back into our deep dive of Cabaret with Tom Pasinka. Last we left off, we were talking about Sally Bow. So let's get to Sally Bowles.

[Tom Pasinka]

What good is sitting alone in your room? Come hear the music play Life is a cabaret. Come to the cabaret.

[Matt Koplik]

She wants so desperately to be different and be special. And ultimately, she really isn't special. She's not a good performer. She's not incredibly smart. She's not incredibly insightful. What she is, is she's fun. And she's always. She has an instinct to zig when everyone is zagging, which makes her unpredictable. And as the world is getting more dark and reality is seeping in, you need to be able to, as an actress, play a way to relate and react off of everybody, but still kind of have a bubble. Because, like, Michelle, like when I saw Michelle Williams do it, her Sally was in a Bubble the entire show until Cabaret, until the title song. And it was very frustrating because for two hours, you would just watch her not take anything in. And then when the title song happened and all the walls broke down, I'm like, oh, interesting. It was an interpretation that worked for me on paper, but not in practice. And Natasha and Emma, they had a similar bubble, but they still would, like, talk to Cliff. They would have a reaction with him. It's just that her reaction was never the one that he wanted. So it was not that it was organic, but it was. She was in the moment and then would make a decision to react a certain kind of way as opposed to just sort of, like, walking around blind. And I think that people get so caught up in the flightiness of Sally that they play all of the quirks and none of the reality, or they want to play all of the pain and all of the drudgery and none of the lightness, and they want to emphasize how untalented she is as a performer, that they don't allow things like mine hair to be a bop. They drag it out for nine hours like certain productions. And it's like, you know, I get that you're trying to do something, but I would love to get out of here at some point. Tom's been in this theater for five hours because of the pre show.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah. I've been at the Kit Kat Club for a week. Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

I need to get the hell out of here. I have things to do.

[Matt Koplik]

I have groceries to buy.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah. I have garbage to take out. All right. I can't just sit in the perpetual purgatory of the Kit Kat Club. August, also known as the August Wilson Theater. But, no, but I, I, I don't. The other thing, too, is, like, I don't want to see Sally just be insufferable.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

Like, I want to fall in love with her in. In some way. Like. Yes. Can Sally be insufferable? Absolutely. Just like, I can. Just like anyone can be. But, like, I don't want her to be insufferable the entire time. I don't want to be.

[Matt Koplik]

But you don't want someone to be one color the entire time anyway. Right? Like, you want to throw. Show those facets.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I want. I want to see her be annoying, and then I want to see, like. Like, I want to be like, get out of here. Then I'm gonna be like, oh, no. But I like that. I like that part of you, so. But again, I think that's why it's such a hard part. I think it's a really hard part because you. And again, I do think it's. It's similar to the MC and the Hamlet thing where it's like you have to have your take on it. There's a pressure as opposed to just like playing it. Like just do it and then. And then see where you line up with this character. Yeah. And that's your take. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Can I ask you a question?

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So with Peter in stereophonic, that is an objectively very tricky role.

[Tom Pasinka]

He.

[Matt Koplik]

In so many ways, it's easy for the audience to just hate him all the time. And I feel like we didn't always hate him. Can you talk a little bit sort of about your approach to it and your work with the cast and the director of taking a role like that that on paper is so easy to play one not and is and is really easy for an audience to react one kind of way and sort of what you. How. What the process you did with that and. Because I think we can relate that to Sally and even to Cliff a little bit.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah, well, I think, I think, you know, it's funny, I don't. I tend to play these types of parts because I think ultimately I don't. Like, I understood Peter from the time I read the play. Like, I didn't read the play being like, this is a problematic person. Right. Like, I just read the play and I was like, well, he's, he's tough and like, he says some out of pocket shit, but like, ultimately he's just trying to make the best product. That's his job. Right. He's like, I'm a musician. I'm the lead singer and guitarist of a band and we got to make a really good album, so by any means necessary, let's do it. But I remember Daniel Ocken brought me into a room, like the second week of rehearsal, and he was like, people are really going to hate Peter. And I didn't even think about it. I was just like, he's just a character in a play. But then you'd go out to the stage door and people would be like, I hate you. Or you need a trigger warning. Someone said that to me and I was just like, come on. Also, that guy's back there at the theater. I'm. This is. I'm just a guy. He ain't real, but he's not real. But I'm glad you were so affected because then I'm doing my job. But I do think it's like, I do think David Gives moments in the play where you see the mask drop. Because I think the thing that I really focused on was every rock star has a Persona. And. And also this guy, this. This guy's Persona that I think is tied to his rock star stage Persona, which we never really see because we're not. You never see the concert of the band. Yeah, you see them in the studio. But that there's a. There's a. A hard barrier. There's. There's. There's a. There's a. Not a hard barrier. There's a porous barrier between this Persona he's built out of necessity for his job and the Persona and who he actually is with the wounds. So it's like. And that Persona is effective in taking charge, in being an asshole, holding power. But I think those moments where in the script, I really tried to, like, dig into those moments of vulnerability. Like, dig 120% into the moments of, like, meanness and control and power. And then. And then dig 120% into the moments of vulnerability and when the mask drops so that you're seeing two very different people. I had an acting teacher tell me, you can't play two things at once. You have to play one thing and then play another.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

And then the audience will put that together. Right. But I think in a way, it's the same with these characters in this play. I mean, at least if I were to play Sally when she's being sweet and, like, caring, play that. And then when she's being insufferable and mean and crazy and bipolar, whatever the hell she is, play that, you know?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

Because I think, like, that duality is something that an audience can. Can. Can relate to. It's like, yeah, sometimes I wake up and I have a fight with my boyfriend or girlfriend, and I'm a monster. But then in the very next second, I'm like, oh, you're. Oh, your tummy hurts. You know, So I think I like that. And I think that there's. I think within these types of characters, if it's written well, which I think in both Seraphonic and in Cabaret, they are seizing on those opportunities. Yeah, I guess. If that makes sense.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

No, it's.

[Matt Koplik]

I see what you mean is, you. Well, first of all, again, you know, no one ever walks around thinking that they're the villain and then relishing in it. Everyone thinks that they're right and then tend to get genuinely confused when they get vilified for it. Like with Peter in Stereophonic, as you were saying, he wanted to make the best album possible.

[Tom Pasinka]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

And when people would yell at him for being mean about it, he would be confused of, like, aren't we trying to make this work of art? Like, why is no one caring as much as I do? And with Sally, it's sort of, you know, isn't the point of life to enjoy it? Why aren't. Why don't you want to enjoy it with me? And. And finding anything that is permanent, anything that is an actual role, anything that is traditional, becomes a scary prison. Because, like. Like, Sally is somebody who can commit to now. She can barely commit to tomorrow, let alone for the next 10 years. So the idea of having a baby is already terrifying to her. Of, like, oh, once you have that baby, you've had that baby, and you are its mother until one of you, you know, leaves this earth. And that is. That is just something she can't do. It's like the people who can't get married because the idea of committing forever terrifies them and have to say, you know, I'll commit to you today and every day I'll wake up and decide if I'm still committing to you. But don't ask me about forever, you know?

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny that you talk about the family, because with Peter, he wants a family. He wants a baby. He wants what Sally doesn't want. And I think what's interesting is, like, once you hit a biological trigger, there's no going back. It's like when you have that baby, when now you're holding that baby in your arms, something changes. And it's like, it's no longer about me. It's about this thing that exists outside of me that I had a part in making. And it's like, it's an extension of me, but it exists outside of me. Right. Whenever I talk to my mom or whatever about having babies, it's like, you're. You're. It's like, oh, all of a sudden my life is totally like, the. The things I care about are different. So it's like with Sal, with Peter, I think he doesn't want to be the controlling asshole.

[Matt Koplik]

He. He.

[Tom Pasinka]

He. I think hitting that biological switch, he's like, oh, maybe I can actually just be, like, a normal person and, like, have something not to be obsessed over where this album is going to be good or not, you know? Whereas with Sally, it's like the fear of, like. But then I have to give all this up.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

You know, it's like sort of the opposite.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

It's like, it's like this switch for Peter, it's like, maybe this hitting the switch will save me. With her, it's like, hitting this switch might destroy me.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

And, you know.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, so I wonder then, is this a moment where, between the two of them, Sally's the one that actually has the better clarity? Because do you think. Do you think that having a baby would help Peter? Do you think them having that baby would help the relationship? Do you think that he actually. Yeah. Well. And then also, do you also think that him having a baby would then keep him from being less focused on the album or another album?

[Tom Pasinka]

No, because I think what she's saying is true.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Tom Pasinka]

He doesn't think it's true.

[Matt Koplik]

Right.

[Tom Pasinka]

He. He has this Pollyannish idea of what it means to have a baby.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Tom Pasinka]

Whereas, like, she's like, no, I'm going to be stuck at home with the baby. You're going to be out there doing your thing, which, like, I don't think he computes. He's like. He's like. He's like, no, no, no. It's going to be great. Like, we're going to be a great family. It's gonna be awesome. Like, I'll do this. You'll do that. Like, but the baby's gonna. Like, but that's the thing. Like, don't. With the baby. No, it's not going to work.

[Matt Koplik]

No. The number of people who've tried to trap me and I've tried to trap them with babies. It's a constant web, Tom. But Sally, I actually think, again, it's. That it's the only moment in the whole show where she has clarity and she actually thinks of herself realistically. She understands that she is not capable really of being a mother. I think the thing you're talking about of the biological switch, of you have the baby, and everything sort of changes. I don't think that that would happen for Sally, and I think she realizes that it wouldn't. And the best thing she could do, considering the world that is happening around her, the person who wants to raise the baby with her and just who she is, fundamentally, this baby has no shot, and it's. It would just be better to not have it. And that's ultimately what she decides. And it's like the. I think it's the one adult, rational decision that she makes in the entire show. Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

And I think. I think that awareness. Right. Like, the. The self. The self awareness is. Is a good thing.

[Matt Koplik]

Mm.

[Tom Pasinka]

Right. It's like.

[Matt Koplik]

And. Well, and there's even the symbolism of she has this fur coat that we've watched her all of act one and a little bit of act two where it's, you know, cost her a whole month's wages from the club and all this stuff. And it's like her one real big luxury thing and it makes her feel rich and famous and she ultimately uses it to pay for the abortion. And it is, I think, a statement on just how made up her mind she was on it to do it and so confident that it was the right decision that she's willing to give up this piece of herself that she prided so much of herself on because she'll probably never get another fur coat again. She doesn't have the mentality of, oh, I'll get another one at some point. It's like, no, that's gone forever and I'll never have it. I'll never have another one. But I did what I needed to do.

[Tom Pasinka]

Right? Right. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting in that we like watching people make hard decisions. That's why I have a problem with a lot of theater where it's so sanitized and you're like, but I want to watch them make the hard choice.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

Even if it hurts other people. I want to watch them get put in a corner and then watch them get out of it. You know, being in the. Is the good episode.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

You know, that's.

[Matt Koplik]

No, the stuff of drama is the stuff of story and you want people, you know, put in a tempest and, and really forming a new version of themselves afterwards. Or in some ways, maybe they are still who they are, but we learn more about why that is the case. It's, it's. I want to see people make the hard decision or I want to see people not make the, the smart decision for a reason that I can keep watching. You know, there's, we watch so many. It's so weird. Like TV shows for some reason, maybe because they have the luxury of all this time for an audience to come on board and see all the nuances of stuff, but TV shows tend to be the medium right now where audiences are more okay with characters sucking and making bad decisions. And, and even, even if we're like, oh God, why would you do that? We still watch. We don't find it problematic. Like no one thought while watching baby reindeer that all the self destructive things he was doing was like, quote unquote problematic on a moral level. They were just like, oh God, what's going on with this man that he would do this? I'm like, that's the mentality you should have when watching a goddamn musical or play.

[Tom Pasinka]

Right. But I also think, and this was my experience with Sarah Phonic, people didn't want to be in the room with Peter. I think there's, like, a distance to television and film. There's a framing where. And that's why I think what's interesting about these latest incarnations of Cabaret, which is, like, you're in the club. Like, I don't necessarily want to be in the same room with Sally sometimes.

[Matt Koplik]

Because you don't like how you feel when you're around her, or because you don't like what you might think about yourself when watching her. Not you specifically, Tom, but, like, the royal you. You know what I mean? In the same way people. When you say people don't want to be in the room with Peter, do you think it's because they don't like how they feel when watching Peter, or they don't like having to think about the things they're thinking about while being in the room with him?

[Tom Pasinka]

I think it's more the second one, but I think it's a combo because I think it's like, oh, this being in, like, a physical space with this human being acting like this or behaving this way hits something in me. Whether it reminds me of, like, an ex or it reminds me of, like, a person I know who hurt me or whatever. Like, there's not that. Like, I have to sit if I'm gonna. If I'm gonna pay a certain amount of money and sit in this room with this person. I'm sort of implicated in one way or another to sit here and be here with this physical presence. And that's what I love about theater. Yeah. Because you're like. Because the audience is implicated in the event. Whereas on TV and film, you can kind of like, sit there and be like, wow, look at what this guy's doing. He's wild. You know? But in some ways, I think both, and especially with Cabaret, with being in the club, you're like, oh, I'm participating. And I think that also gets into, like, at the end of the show, where, like, the Nazism go. The fascism. The Nazism is, like, there. Like, we've arrived, you know? And I think goes back to what we were talking about with the original production of the Mirror, where it's like, oh, no, you're part of this, too.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

And. And. And that's why I think, like, this show is always around. Yeah, It's. It's. It's. I feel like, it's one of those few musicals that's constantly in the zeitgeist.

[Matt Koplik]

1000%. It's. It's done all of the time, and it's referenced in film and TV all of the time. For a musical that. And so dark, it is kind of surprising to me how much of a blockbuster it is kind of everywhere it goes, you know, like. And I would maybe say Les Mis, too, but like, Les Mis, there's a lot more misery on stage, but I don't find it as necessarily dark as Cabaret, as troubling as Cabaret. And. And Les Mis also is just like bonkersly epic music for three hours straight. And it. That it kind of like, wills you into submission with it. Cabaret entices and seduces you for the beginning, and then, like, the taste starts to get sour after a while, intentionally so. And so it's always interesting for a show that, like, it doesn't end on this massive high. It ends with this. With this symbol crash that is just absolutely penetrating. And yet so many audiences are like, oh, there's a new production of Cabaret. I'm there. And it's. Part of it is. It's a good show, and we'll never not go see a show that we know is good. But I think also part of it is. I don't know, maybe this is why productions have gotten progressively more. In your face of. It seems that we always need the reminder of how easily this can happen again, how much it always is kind of continually happening, whether in our own country or other countries. It's always happening somewhere, and the cycle never stops and the mirror never stops reflecting. And it is kind of a genuine, important show. And I hate using the I word because so many shows. I generally don't find Broadway important when it comes to, like, messaging, especially now. But Cabaret is one of those shows where, because it is such a good one, because it's become so widespread, because people want to see it all the time, and because it's so good about the. The impact it can have. I would very much like you to go to the library to see the Mendy's production. I would like you to see.

[Tom Pasinka]

I will.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I will. Because I think it does do all these things that I'm saying that the last revival sort of does, but not really. And because of the impact it can have at the end, I think, and the fact that it is successful, that is what makes it important. It makes a very bold, important statement and does it in a way that people are willing to get in the room. To hear it. Because if no one's in the room to watch, doesn't matter what the message is. If no one's there to hear it, the message doesn't exist.

[Tom Pasinka]

Right. Les Mis is like, it's about a revolution.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

A failed one, but it's about a revolution nonetheless. So there's this, like, spirit of, like, overcoming the powers that be. Whereas, like, cabaret is the opposite.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

It's like. It's like you just watch a society getting crushed and a group of people getting crushed and submitting to something, to. Submitting to power as opposing. To fighting against it and overcoming the power. The power. The elite or whatever the hell or of the power structure that is in place. So I think it's. And. And I think it's a bit of a magic trick, at least recently, where you're like. With these last two productions, with the. With the. With the pr, I guess, where it's like, come into the club and, like, we're gonna have a good time. And then you get there and you're like, oh, God, this is about Nazis. You know, I think a lot of people don't know that. It's like. But I think there is something refreshing about, like, the trick. It pulls on you, for sure. You're like. You're gonna think that this is about, like, coming to the club and having a good time, and, like, it's sexy and, like, seductive. And then you're like, oh, no, it's about the Nazis.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. People forget.

[Tom Pasinka]

At the end of the day, people.

[Matt Koplik]

Forget the same thing with sound and music. They're like, it's about Julie Andrews twirling on a hill. I'm like. And then Nazis show up. It's. Yeah, I know I've mentioned this on the podcast once before, but Sound of Music, Fiddler on the Roof, and Cabaret have a similar story. Structure of Act 1 is a lot of the musical theater intricacies of our main cast. And, like, who's going to marry who? Who's going to be the caretaker for the children? Oh, no. Who's, like, who's going to work at the club? And there's, like, this. You get a sense that there is a danger around the perimeters of the story, but it's not real. And then at the end of Act 1, not for sound of Music, Sound of Music, the real danger doesn't come till halfway through Act 2. But for cabaret and Fiddler, the danger actually arrives at the end of Act 1. And then Act 2 becomes. Now that it's here, everything has shifted. Like, Everything that we were so concerned about is kind of immaterial now. Now we got to deal with this and then sounding music sort of deals with all of the immaterial stuff for a little bit longer. And then halfway through act two, they're like, oh, and now the real danger is here and we gotta flee. And it is. I mean, all three shows actually end with main characters fleeing, which. So, you know, saying very similar stuff. But yeah, it's you that is sort of the, as you said, the magic trick of cabaret, of you bring people in with the. With the villekommen and the. And the club vibe. And like, it's sexy, it's chic. It's so hip right now to come see this and get yourself a bottle of bubbly and sit at a table and like, oh my God, check out the pre show. See the latest celebrity in the show. And then at the end of Act 1, Ernst is wearing a swastika. The sex worker is holding an accordion singing the Nazi salute. And it's like, okay, this is where you're at. This is what we're here now for.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah. And I think people like a gut punch.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, and it also shows you how people respond to gut punches. And also kind of when the element of surprise is there and people can't play act how they. How they're supposed to act in public. It's a bit of a litmus test. I mean, the thing that's always sort of talked about is if you could see her. That number has had various reactions over the years to. And. And it's. There's always a semblance of certain audiences not understanding and their reaction being representative of who they are at their course. Like in the 60s when it ends. And it. And the whole number also is representation of cabaret as a show. It begins with this cute little love song for the MC and a gorilla. And you think it's just a silly little stupid song. Cause at that point, why the audience has trusted that the emcee is, you know, their friend. And at the end, the joke is, if you could see her through my eyes, she wouldn't look Jewish at all. And in the 60s, audiences didn't understand that this was meant to be a commentary on the rise of anti Semitism within the show. And they just viewed it as blatant anti Semitism and demanded that the song be cut or that they change the lyric. So they changed it to she isn't a Mieskite at all, which is German for ugly. And that was a song that was originally in the show Mies Kite that they eventually cut. And then, like, in the 80s and in the 90s. And now in this version, like, you get audience members who still don't know this show, which is great. We love that surprise. But when that line happens, your ear always pricks up for who laughs. Who laughs at that line. And some people laugh because they're uncomfortable. There's a shock element to it. Some people laugh because they view it almost like south park humor, where it's like, oh, like, they made a taboo joke and, like, isn't that hilarious? And then some people who are just, like, fucking anti Semitic. And so your ear pricks up for that. And I remember in the Alan Cumming re revival, nobody really laughed, but when the number ended, the audience cheered. And it wasn't for the statement, or at least I don't think it was for the statement. It was. Everybody in the audience was there to see Alan coming, and it was his only real big number for act two. And so they. And it ends with, you know, a really big. It ends with a huge button. And everyone just sort of like, you know, they whistled and they hooped and they hollered. And I was like, that's in really fucking poor taste. In the same way that I don't. I think a successful Sally doing the title song of Cabaret does not get hoops and hollers when the song is over. They get applause. But it's sort of like a who. That was something as opposed to like, whoa, work, bitch. You know?

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah, no, I agree. I think. And it was something I wanted to touch on because I feel like that's such a. Just. It's a. Such a controversial. Such a. Like a big, big moment of Cabaret.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

You know, in that it's like you. And what I like about it is you. You. You. Your body is like, oh, okay, where. Where are. And. And again, the implication of the audience and what I also like about that moment, and I felt it. I think it's inevitable to feel it. It's like, oh, now my focus has gone from here to here. Who am I sitting next to? You know what I mean? And that element of, like, danger, where it's like, am I sitting in an audience full of Nazis? Am I sitting in an audience full of people who think like me? And the answer is no, none of. It's like, maybe, maybe not. I'm sitting in an audience of people who are all individuals and who think all very differently or react very differently or whatever. And it's like, because, like, that hooter and that hooting and hollering is, I think the ultimate effect is like a smatter of very various responses. I think that's probably like, the desired outcome. Yeah, but that. That, like, kind of massive hootering, hooting and hollering feels of another thing.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I think there's a compulsive reaction for a lot of audiences of cheering at the end of any moment in a show that, like, where there's a release, whether that's a button, whether that's a laugh line or whatever, and not always necessarily thinking about the context in which the thing they just saw was happening. And, you know, I don't love when in. I guess because it's ahead of my mind right now because we were saying it. But like, in Les Mis, I don't love it when a Fantine or an Eponine is optioning up on their songs. And I Dream of the Dreamer on my own. Like, those are those characters. Those songs are those characters at their lowest point. And, you know, anything that comes out of their mouth should be something that feels organic. And if you are treating it like a concert, I'm out of the story, and I'm just listening to the music. And the point of musical theater, what makes it different from a concert is that it is actually a story through song and not just songs. And it can be done in various ways. Broadway has shown us over the last hundred years that there are various ways to tell a musical theater story. But if you come out of a show and you're just like, ah, I didn't care about the story so much. I just wanted to hear the music. I'm like, okay, well, you know, you can spend your money how you want, but don't talk to me about theater then.

[Tom Pasinka]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is one of the few ways in which I'm an elitist asshole. But that is like, this is what we do. We're in this business and in this community in hopes of creating something special, creating something memorable, and if we're lucky, something different. But always with the mentality of wanting to tell a compelling story. There are various ways in which that can be done. And a compelling story doesn't necessarily mean cabaret. A compelling story can be Mamma Mia. But you have to go at it with your full chest. And so I just. I don't know. It's like, are you a South park person, Tom? Were you ever South Park?

[Tom Pasinka]

I mean, when I was younger, I used to watch it a lot, but I haven't watched it in a long time.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, I haven't watched a new episode in like three years, but I don't think that's what you mean by a long time. So I, this is where I'm a little straight. I. I'm a, I'm a pretty big south park fan considering I haven't seen the last like two seasons. But there's like a solid 12 or 13 year run of south park where I'm just like, roses too.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But they famously had a two part episode about Family Guy. I don't think it's available anymore, but I luckily bought it on itunes when it came out and it's on my computer forever. But the whole thing is just like how Cartman hates Family Guy and basically uses terrorism as a way to get Family Guy off the air. Not because of any moral issues he has with it, because he just doesn't think it's funny. And already I'm like, I love this premise. But Trey Parker and Matt Stone were kind of, their hands were brought to the fire on it because this was pretty soon after Family Guy came back on the air due to a lot of public interest and support and a major fandom. And Parker and Stone did a whole thing about sort of how the jokes and Family Guy work, and they were totally right. And eventually they were asked like, do you hate Family Guy? And they said, no, we don't really hate it, but we recognize the humor they're writing and we just think it's very easy and cheap. And it's sort of like when you're. We don't think that we're masters of craft, but we are trying to make something. And so it really sucks when you see somebody do something half baked. And everyone likes it. Or rather everyone is like, I don't care that it's half baked. That's enough for me. It's like, well then what's the point of me trying to make something fully baked? Like, I can do. I just half ass it from now on because that's all you want for me. And so when I listen to people say, like, I, I loved this because the singing was exceptional and who cares about the story or the acting? I'm like, well then why write a script at all? You know, if that's how you feel, why should I even try? Should I just give, should I create something that gives an opportunity for everyone to just belt their tits off?

[Tom Pasinka]

Right? And I do think there is like a discourse around the musical theater where it's like, oh, this is a, this is a technically amazing performance. As far as, like, then all the notes are being hit. All of this is happening. All of that is happening. But then where there's. But there's nothing underneath it. Yeah, like. Like, like. I remember when I saw Sunset Boulevard, I was like, this feels like this is serving the story. I'm not. I don't feel like Nicole's going up. Yeah, she's hitting amazing notes, but I don't think she's hitting them just for the sake of hitting them.

[Matt Koplik]

No, you know, absolutely. I mean, Sunset is a very alien example for me because I hate that musical and.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I liked that revival because I love the movie. And I felt like Jamie Lloyd felt similarly. And. And when Nicole was doing. I remember speaking to people like, well, do you consider that acting? I was like, yes, but also, like, she is serving this specific story in the specific tone that this director is setting. So it's not necessarily what I'm saying. What she's doing is what everyone should do all the time. But this is the world that she's in. And she is catering yourself to that.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah. You know, speaking of another thing that they brought back, I remember I'd never seen Sunset Boulevard. I didn't really know. I mean, I heard some of the songs, but it was kind of a blind spot for me. And my agent called me. She was like, I'm looking at an actor to represent who's in the Sunset Boulevard. When they brought it back with Glenn Close.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, okay. That one.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah, yeah, that one. And did you see that?

[Matt Koplik]

I sure did.

[Tom Pasinka]

With the set with all the steps.

[Matt Koplik]

Mm.

[Tom Pasinka]

And I was like, they're gonna kill this woman. They are gonna kill this. This seven eighty something year old woman. Like, they are have. I mean, I was impressed. I was like, you are running up and down those steps, you know? But it was a similar moment when. When. When she has the moment where she's like. She's like, what's the. I forget the name of the spot operator. When she goes back to the studio. Yeah. She's like, oh, guy, I haven't seen you. Let me. And he's like, let's see how you look, Ms. Desmond. And the thing turns out. And then, like, everyone in the audience just, like, stood up and applauded. And I was like, this is not about the musical. This is about, like, Glenn Closed coming back to do the thing. Having the moment. People are losing their minds. And then they auctioned off her eyelashes. Fake, fake eyelashes, which I thought was disgusting.

[Matt Koplik]

That is disgusting. My God.

[Tom Pasinka]

For Broadway cares.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't want Shit that's touched another person's body. No, thank you.

[Tom Pasinka]

I don't want her messy, disgusting eyelashes.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I, I, I've never been somebody who's found it hot or even, like, exciting to, like, when they would, like. I think they would sell Hugh Jackman's, like, undershirt at shows. I don't find that hot. But I don't know, maybe I'm just a big old fucking prude. But I will say with, with Sunset is that moment in particular. I don't know what it is, Thomas. I know so many cunty homosexuals who will see things that I think are very lovely and beautiful and they see everything wrong with it and they're like, ugh, basic, stupid. Whatever. For some reason, those little assholes think that Sunset Boulevard is objectively a good musical and they lose their minds every time, as if we Never said goodbye happens. And I'm like, listen, I get it. There's something chemical about the song that I've Come Home at Last. There's just something very thrilling about that. Angelo Webber, at his best, is very good at crafting a musical moment that makes you just go, haha. And as a homosexual, I get those sometimes in musical theater. But I'm also sitting here and I'm like, am I insane? Because I don't think this show is good. I don't think Glenn sounds particularly good. It's like, why is this the moment that everyone's losing their minds over? It's something that has always eluded me. But then I'll watch something like an Amy Lennox doing the title song in Cabaret. And I get why people find it impressive because it is objectively impressive. I also find it so distancing because I can't get involved with it. When you get to that, when you do something like that, you. It needs to be engaging, not just impressive. And I feel like for so many people, they are eager to turn their minds off the moment they go see a show and just. And then just feel the entire time. And I have always been in the mind frame of, like, I need a show to be good enough, that it turns my mind off for me, that I know that I'm in good hands, that I can go along for the ride.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah. You know, it's funny. I went to London recently. I think. I think you did too. You were just there.

[Matt Koplik]

I did, yeah. When were you there?

[Tom Pasinka]

I was there. I was filming a movie in Latvia in September, and I had, like. We had a couple days off, so I went over to see Stereophonic on the West End. And that was a bizarre experience. But I. But because theater is so accessible and cheaper there, I felt like I could walk into those experiences with a more open brain than just, like, trying to let it wash over me. Because I feel like. I feel like seeing theater on Broadway is so expensive that you. You feel like this weird thing. I better get a return on my investment.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

You know, and I think. I think that's partly it, where it's like, I want to feel the feels because I'm. I paid $500.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

You know, this better be worth it. This better be worth it. Yeah. And, like, the. But to talk to Sunset, I don't like that musical. I think it's so cheesy. Like, I'm like, oh, this is so cheesy. And that Glenn production, I was like, ugh, I don't like this musical. And then what I loved about the Jamie Lloyd, I was like, there are a lot of parts of this, to me, that feel cool. And the fact that this guy and this cast and this production team can make a musical, I think is totally cheeseball and make it feel cool to me. Great.

[Matt Koplik]

I had not seen Sunset Boulevard in person before until I saw the Glenn production. I had listened to the cast recording once, and I heard a couple of songs a few times, but that was my first time seeing it from start to finish live in front of me. And the person I went with was an older gay who, again, one of those, like, cunty bishy older gays who. His whole thing is, like, he doesn't like the musical Dear Evan Hansen, because he says, no teenager today would ever say dear. And I was like, that's not what that title means, but, okay, go. You go and you and you live your truth. But we're watching the show, and at some point, I just heard him, like, guffaw at something. And I turned to him very earnestly, and I said, did you forget that this musical was bad because he had seen it before? I was like, did you forget? I'm like, I'm watching this for the first time, so I'm learning in real time how bad it is. Like, did you forget this was bad? And he turns me, goes, you think this is bad? I was like, not. Not since if you could see her through my eyes. And people laughed at the Jewish line. I was like, not since then have I been so thrown by the person sitting next to me.

[Tom Pasinka]

What was your. What was your. You know, because I, I. I saw a couple things on social media where, like, I think it might have Been Billy Porter and Adam Lambert kind of scolded the audience at that moment. Like, what, what's your, what are your thoughts on that?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so I don't, I don't know the. I don't know the specifics of those moments. I don't know if it was. Audiences were laughing at it and the laughter felt a little too easy. And like, maybe. I don't know if like in the room, it just sort of felt like to Lambert that he felt like the audience wasn't getting it. And from what I understand, he still did it in character. I don't know exactly how that works, but yeah, I don't know. Like, as the problem with a lot of these shows is as the times shift, some things that were, you know, made us very specific impact 60 years ago because cabaret literally is almost 60 years old now. It'll be 60 in November. Something that made like a very immediate and specific impact 60 years ago doesn't make quite the same impact now because society is different and people are different and entertainment is different. And what people find shocking has changed because what people find. Okay. To be hateful about has changed. And so you don't know who's laughing because they genuinely have anti Semitic views or if they're laughing because they mistakenly think it's meant to be an off color joke or. Or because I will also say, like, there are a lot of really fucking dumb people out there seeing these shows and coming out with takes that are just hot garbage. Like saying, well, no teenager would say dear. So Dear Evan Hansen's a bad musical. That's more me making light of it. But still. Yeah, I don't know. I try to keep the illusion as much as possible, but there are also times where I've gone to see shows and I give major props to actors in plays. When there's nine cell phone rings happening and I'm like, if I had the power to be Cynthia Nixon and Marjorie prime and somebody wasn't answering their phone, I would have no problem just being like, you're not going to turn that off. You ruined the moment. You ruined it. Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know. How do you feel as somebody who's had to be on the stage and has had to kind of keep the illusion alive for as long as possible? What?

[Tom Pasinka]

Well, I mean, during Seraphonic, people would talk to me. They would be like, shouted you sometimes. Yeah, they'd be like, us. They'd be like, oh, stop. You know, or like, like there was one night where one woman really was going for it. She was like. And it wasn't, like, necessarily, like, aimed at me, but she was being, like, very loud about her distaste of my character. And it's jarring. But I also. My. My usual take is just to just sit there and just wait till it passes. That's usually my tactic there. I remember one night, the scene where I tell. Where she's trying to hit the note, and I'm sitting there and I say. She goes, how'd it go? You know, how does it go? And they're. The engineers are like, oh, it was amazing. It sounded amazing. And he go. She goes, peter, how'd you. What'd you think? I go, it was good. Or it was whatever is. Whatever. I forgot the line. But some guy in the front row just goes, you know. Yeah. But it's like, in some ways, I'm like, gotcha. You know, I'm like, cool, great. Like, you're throwing all that out the window, all your audience decorum out the window to call me an. And I know you see it, but. Or I, you know, I hear it. I'm right here. But. But I think with cell phones, I have had the impulse while I'm on stage to just say, yeah. Speaking of Alan Cumming, I saw. I didn't go to my senior prom. Instead, I went to see Threepenny Opera on Broadway with Alan Cumming because I had gone to the senior prom with my senior girlfriend when I was a junior, and the prom sucked. So I was like. So I was like, I'm not going.

[Matt Koplik]

You started that story very nerdy and gay and sweet. And then the reasoning for that opening was very straight boy, cool boy.

[Tom Pasinka]

And I can't believe I skipped my.

[Matt Koplik]

Senior prom to see Threepenny Opera. The reason is because I had gone to the senior prom the year before with my girlfriend, who was a senior at the time, and I didn't enjoy it. I'm like, okay, you contain multitudes.

[Tom Pasinka]

Okay, contain multitudes. I'm a theater kid at heart, but also.

[Matt Koplik]

But you're a cool boy. I get it.

[Tom Pasinka]

But I'm a cool boy. But I. But. So, yeah, so I didn't go to my senior prom, and I went to that instead because I wanted something to do, you know, And. And I think it's indicative that I went to a, you know, a Bertolt Brecht, Kurt Weil experience, not, you know, Mamma Mia. Which I love. I love, by the way. I love by the way. But. But it shows me as the elitist asshole that I Am sure. But I, I remember at the max, big song, when he's about to be executed, he's in the jail and Alan Cumming was sitting there on like a chair or something, and he's about to start a song and a cell phone rings and it keeps ringing and he just goes, I'll wait. And I loved that. I was like, that feels like the best. And there, there were moments in Seraphonic when I thought of that and I thought, well, that'll be the tactic I take. I never did. I never did. But I think that's.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I don't want, I don't want to umbrella it. But I will say, when I've gone to theater in the last three years, it's almost exclusively boomers who are not answering those phones. To which I say, if my grandmother, who is 102, mind you, still seeing fucking theater, knows how to turn off her phone and remembers to do it before every show she sees. No one has any excuse whatsoever. And if they say, well, I'm a doctor and I'm on call, I'm like, then you don't get to go to the theater that day, Brad. It's, it's, it should it. I would love for theater to be accessible on an expense level, but that also doesn't mean that it is a right every day. It's not like, oh, I have a commitment that I kind of have to be on call for, but I'll go see a Broadway show right now. It's like, no, no, no. Go see the Broadway show when you can actually devote your mental energy to it, you know?

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I, you know, I long for the past a lot because theater, essentially. I mean, yes, it's relevant. Is it? But it is a very long held tradition when that was invented, when cell phones didn't exist. And so. So I long for some. I long for manners. I long for decorum. I long for like. Yes. Is it like for Alita Shills? Yeah, but maybe that's important.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I think there's a. There's great stuff that caters to various demographics. Would you say that the people who had their outbursts at you at Stereophonic, did they feel genuine to you or did they feel a little performative?

[Tom Pasinka]

I mean, ultimately, I think it's always a performative.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Tom Pasinka]

It just feels like. I mean. No, I'll amend that. I do think that there are. I think it starts off as real and then becomes performative. Yeah. It's like I'm having a visceral reaction to this, and I say something, and then I'm gonna prove to everyone around me, like, that I'm on the right side of the morality of these characters in this play.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

So. Yeah. But I felt I. The thing that didn't get me as much, the thing that got me more was people at the stage door.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, that's a blatant choice to say something and also shows that they cannot differentiate between reality and fantasy. They can't say to you, really, great job. Your character was tough for me to watch, but you inhabited it so well. They were like, I hated you.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah. And like, I got that other thing too, you know?

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Tom Pasinka]

But the blatant sort of like, I need to let you know how much I hated your character is a little bit like, okay, yeah, here's my autograph.

[Matt Koplik]

People are very bold sometimes to say what they think about you. And maybe I'm projecting just because with this podcast, I've definitely had people write to me, write reviews of me and post about me and the podcast in a way where I'm like, oh, we're just saying whatever we feel. No filter. No. No thought towards, like, shaping this in a. And wording this in a way that maybe could not make me want to kill myself. And I think because this podcast, people mistakenly think that because we talk about theater in this open way, that it's like, oh, well, Matt has no filter, therefore, like, why should I have a filter? I'm like, no, I have a filter. I don't desire to be an asshole. Sometimes. I can. I've been told I'm, like, a little smart alecky sometimes or not smarmy, but I don't know. There's a word that people sometimes use for me that I'm sure is accurate sometimes, but that just comes with the territory of, like, loving something or not loving something, being passionate about it. But still, like, I'll. Someone will write in and. And say something. I'm like, oh, you think it's okay to just say that to me? Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, it's. It's in the way. It toughens you up a bit. But it's also, like, what makes you think that that's okay to just say?

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah, it's not. It's. It's. It's people, I think, because we live in the age of social media and everyone is allowed to say whatever they want, but also we're allowed. We're not allowed to say whatever we want. It's like this weird dichotomy where it's like, it's like, people think that everyone can have an opinion, but if you don't have the right opinion or you don't say the right thing, or you're like grading to me or like, it's like this weird two way thing, but it's not quite two way. And I think, I think it's like, well, there's an expectation that you should know how I feel about you or there's a comment section, so I'm just going to be open and honest about whatever. Also, what do they expect you to do? They want you to be like, not open and honest about the way you have a podcast that. Where you're supposed to express your opinions this whole point.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I think they. They feel that I can be a little elitist and a little. I wish I remember what the word was because it wasn't smarmy. But it was something like that. Because smarmy is more like oily. Right. And more. Yeah, it wasn't that. It was more that he. Like, I could be pretentious or I could be condescending. And I've said many times on this podcast, I don't know how one can talk about a piece that they don't like and not sound condescending because ultimately you are speaking down about something. So there's no way to give a negative feedback about a show or a performer and not sound a little bit that way, you know?

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So it's just difficult. So I don't talk about it in a way where I'm like, fuck this and make light of it all that much. It's very rare that I do that. The show itself has to be so insulting to my time that I will do that. I've got like. But that's also why I only have like three or four shows in my Rolodex as, like, punching bags. Because ultimately there are even shows that I don't like, but I'm like, I'm not going to drag you out and punch you down again because I don't like you, but I don't find you offensive. There are other shows I'm like, you're offensive to the art of trying to make theater. The fact that you got away with this.

[Tom Pasinka]

Right, right. And, like, there should be some standards. I think I agree.

[Matt Koplik]

And some people like, well, I liked it and I went, good for you.

[Tom Pasinka]

That's great. That's great.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm glad you got joy.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah. It's like. And I can. I can not like it.

[Matt Koplik]

Mm.

[Tom Pasinka]

That's okay, too. I'm not trying to hurt anybody. I'm not trying to. Like, it's the same thing for me, like, when I. Like, I'm an actor who reads reviews like I do, and luckily there I haven't gotten too many bad ones, but I have. And the minute. And they used to, like, bum me out. Like, I used to be. Like, they used to really hurt me. I mean, like, I remember I was doing a production of Ibsen's Ghosts at Williamstown, and someone called me. Like, someone wrote a whole paragraph of how melodramatic they thought my performance was. Right. And not granted, Ghosts is actually considered a melodrama, by the way. But I'm not.

[Matt Koplik]

Whatever.

[Tom Pasinka]

Let's say whatever she be it then.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm just saying.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah. I mean, it is about a man being, you know, having his brain eaten by syphilis. But whatever. But. But I. But I. But ultimately, like, the minute I realize that a reviewer's job is a job, that's their job. Right. That's a different job than what I do. It's a different job.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

So if I try to, like, set the same standards of, like, someone talking about my work or one person's opinion about my work, I can't equate that with my work, because it's not the same thing.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

Could it is? Does it. Is it annoying or does it hurt to hear something or read something where people are like, I don't like. But I also understand that, like, there are some people who think I'm, like, the most amazing actor they've ever seen. There are some people who think I'm bad. There are some people who could take me or leave me. So at the end of the day, go for it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. You know, that's the problem with opinions. They are assholes because everyone has one and they turn. And some people's opinions turn them into an asshole. Yeah. Which. Which brings us back to Cabaret, because this is a show where all the characters have. They're all faced with the same problem, the central problem of the Nazis and. And the dangers that are coming into Berlin, and everyone has a different opinion about how to approach it. And I think what is interesting about how Cabaret works as a musical is you see, you. You buy how everyone reacts at the end, because the show kind of tells you how they're gonna react at the top. Which is to say, when we meet Fraulein Schneider for the first time, right? Her first song is called so what? And it's. It's all. It's a story song. She's. She's going through her whole life and talking about how she grew up actually as a rich girl, but then the family lost the fortune and there was a world war and all these other things. She had a husband, but then he died. And it's sort of like all of these tragedies that happened to her that she keeps rolling off of her back because she's like, ultimately, it's about moving on and it's about surviving. And, like, yes, there were things that I had that I miss. And, yes, there was. I wish I had love and all these things. And, like, it's painful, but ultimately it's about waking up tomorrow. And that is the same mentality she has when she breaks off the engagement with Herr Schultz and return. And it's so moving and devastating because you understand where she's coming from and you buy it because we've established that that's the kind of person she is. She has changed a bit somewhat by the end of the show because even though she's making the same decision she would have made at the top of the show by having had this relationship with Shelton, being shown that she can love again. Like, you almost think for a second throughout act one that, like, her arc is she's this hardened woman who went through a lot, and then this sweet man with a fruit shop shows her love and, like, oh, and she's going to be happy again. Like, you think that's going to be the story, but no, there's a coda to it, which is, like, she gets that, and then it gets taken away. And I think her final line is, like, you know, she gives them back the fruit bowl and says, you know, I regret having to give it back to you. I regret everything. And it is a devastatingly powerful line because even if she survives this next world war, and she might. Of all the characters who stay in Berlin, she's the only one who I have any feeling like she might be able to survive is at the expense of whatever optimism or happiness she might have still had in her. It's like, that'll be dead by the time this war is over.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is. She is, I think, one of the most tragic characters in that piece.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

You know, because it is, like, it shows you that the. Yeah. It's like just when you think you get what you always wanted, it can disappear. You know, you spend so much time trying to get to this thing, or, like, oh, I went through this horrible thing. Hopefully there's something hopeful for me in the future. And then. And then you get. And Then there's another world war.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

You know, which, like, happened to people. I mean, that's the other thing about this musical is, like, it's a historical musical in some ways. Yes. It's abstract, and there's this and that, but the. The. The events of the period and the time period. I think. I think. And we're talking about, like, the fact that those two characters and that relationship exist in the real world of the musical, in the more grounded space, in the more vulnerable space, I think is the heart. To me, it's the most heartbreaking part of the musical because you see two people who have already. By their age and time period, have already gone through something hellish.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

They. There's a brief moment, and that's kind of how I think about as someone who didn't go through World War I or World War II. It's like, you know, they called World War I like the Great War, the war to end all wars. And they're like, no, it's come. Something even worse is coming. And. But you have no idea. And, like, that whole feeling of, like, survival and. And the fact that she chooses to stay because it's her home.

[Matt Koplik]

It's what she knows.

[Tom Pasinka]

It's what she knows. And it's like, damned if I get kicked out of my home. You know, all this other bullshit can happen, but I'm staying put. Yeah. And because her. Her whole character is so defined by the place he runs, you know, like, the physical space, I think is. Yeah, it's just good writing. I think.

[Matt Koplik]

Hot take. It is good writing.

[Tom Pasinka]

That's good writing.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I think, because with their age, this idea that it's. No one likes to think that they're towards the end of their life, but the truth is, you never know when you're at the end of your life. And with those two characters, they are older, and it feels a bit like a last gasp for joy. And to have it taken away like that through. Yes, it's a decision that she makes, but it's a pragmatic decision she's making because of very real circumstances that have nothing to do with her or Schulz. Like, this is not. Nothing they did is causing what's happening around them to happen. It's just. It's happening. And. And the. The tragedy of her ultimately making the decision that is probably wisest for both of them, while then also not going one step further and leaving again also due to. As we said, this is what she knows, as you said, tying herself and her value to the building that she runs, that she owns, that she's had all. Most of her life. But then also, again, like, being the age that she is, there's not picking up and leaving means starting over somewhere else. And she's probably 60. Maybe she's 50 or 55, but we're talking like 19, 33, 50, 55. And that is not, you know, a Diane Lane and under the Tuscan sun kind of age in this. In this show. And so, like, what life does a German woman at. At the age of 50, 55 have going, picking up to, like, Paris or London and trying to start over there?

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah. And then what, you go to Paris or London and Paris gets taken over by the Nazis, London gets bombed to shit. It's like, well, you can't get out. You can't escape. Nope. You know, I think that's what is. I think a lot of theater I see is about a thing as opposed to about how the thing affects the people.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[Tom Pasinka]

It's like, this is a play. Like, I remember when I was going to. When I was in college, I was seeing a lot of theater, and it was like another play about the Iraq war. It's about the Iraq war. It's not about the people affected by the Iraq War. And that's why I don't like it, because it's about something that has nothing to do with humanity. It's just the rolling nightmare of war and what war is and what it'll always be. And then I leave. And I go, wow, war is really bad. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Who'da thunk?

[Tom Pasinka]

Who'da thunk, right? But then. But then I watched this storyline in this musical, and I go, and I think about all those people who had to make those choices. And then I go, well, what choices do I have to make in my life when, if and when something horrifying happens in the world or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, think about it. When people object to the violence in the world, to other countries, talk about Gaza and whatnot, what they're sharing is the atrocities done to the people in those areas. And that's what people are sharing. That's where the incentive, the anger comes from. And so it's surprising to me that so many pieces of theater don't recognize that it's the human relations that incentivize us, not just the overall theme. And it does bother me when people are like, well, you can't deny that the message is important. When there was a musical about 12 years ago called Amazing Grace that was about the guy who wrote the Song Amazing Grace. And slavery was a whole big thing about it. And basically, slavery be bad. And it was a terrible, terrible musical, Tom. And I remember people going, well, you cannot deny that the message is moving. I'm like, the message is slavery be bad. And. Yeah. Like, I'm not gonna deny that. Does that make the show good? You.

[Tom Pasinka]

Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Let me get there.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

Like, like, like, of course that these are horrible things. That's the point. The point is, what do we do in horrible things? Or when I'm in a horrible system, or when I'm This. This whatever. You know, when I'm participating or when I'm. But you're right, it is that thing of, like, I want to feel the humanity within the system of a drama.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

You know, I don't want to feel. And then I think that's. That's the interesting thing about Cabaret is that it is. When we were talking about Cabaret versus Les Mis, it's like, there's darkness there, but with Cabaret, the ending is far more bleak.

[Matt Koplik]

Mm.

[Tom Pasinka]

You know, and because we. And it's similar with. In some ways, it's similar with Les Mis because it's a historical. Based on a historical novel. Right. Like, we know what's going to come next with Les Mis, but we really know just, I think, because our society and our time is closer to World War II than it was to the French Revolution. We know. We know what's about to happen.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

You know, and we have to leave on that. That's the crazy part about Cabaret is like, you're like, and the Nazis are here, but they haven't. They haven't put the concentration camps into effect yet. They haven't taken over this. They haven't said, like, there's worse. This is bad, but there's worse to come. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And you have to sit here knowing what's about to come. That these characters do not. That sort of is the Cassandra effect of when they talk about, you know, it's political, as politics has nothing to do with us, and we're German, and it's all fine. It's going to be fine. It's going to blow over. And you're sitting there being like, let me in there and tell them what's going to happen and why they need to leave. It's. I think that what's the thing. The thing about Les Mis is that because it is. It's not even the French Revolution. It's like one of the minor ones that lasted two days. It's like, not even A good one. But Les Mis also, even though it is. It has all these characters and it focuses on the people. In a lot of ways, Les Mis is about. It's an impressionist musical. It's about the overall landscape. It's not about the details. Cabaret is about the details that gets swept under the rug in this giant impression. Like when we think about the Holocaust in World War II. It's these grand, sweeping statements that people think about and we don't talk enough about the one on ones. It's why there are so many movies about the Holocaust and World War II that tend to be about a specific person and their journey through such and such. Because it constantly reminds us the humanizing that we need for all of that of. It's not just this giant grand atrocity. It was this grand atrocity that affected each individual. People who had lives, who had decisions to make and things to do. People who could have been the lead of a musical for all we know and get obliterated. The thing about Ernst that I was just realizing is if this isn't. This is a whole other musical. Because originally Cabaret was done in three acts when they were out of town in Boston and they shaved it down to two and made it like a, you know, two and a half, two 45 hour musical. Another musical would be with Ernst and Cliff, like with the reveal that he's a Nazi of possibly like having that struggle of someone who is so charming and so kind to a character we like, but has all of these morals that we really just can't look away from. And battling that out, like with Amazing Grace, I'm like, I don't know. I think what would make it more challenging for an audience is what if there is a slave owner in it who happens to be the sweetest person in the show? It's just. But like, the fact that they're a slave owner means that they're reprehensible. But all the people who are on the right side of history are annoying as shit. I think that's an interesting dynamic to have. There's a play by Wallace Shawn called Aunt Dan and Lemon. Are we familiar?

[Tom Pasinka]

I know his work, but I don't know that particular play.

[Matt Koplik]

He's an interesting player. It's weird to think that the teacher from Clueless has written so many really avant garde pull things.

[Tom Pasinka]

He's amazing. He's amazing.

[Matt Koplik]

Most of us know him as. It's not because Ms. Geist is who he ends up with, but Mr. Hall. Mr. Hall is his name. Mr. Hall was way harsh but so he has a play called Aunt Dan and Lemon, and it's a memory play with this woman thinking on her. Her aunt who's, like, portrayed as this almost like modern day Auntie Mame. But and whole. Whole thing is that, like, she's bold and she's provocative and she thinks outside the box, but it turns out that she's like a fascist sympathizer. Like, she kind of thinks Mussolini is fascinating. She thinks that Hitler had some neat ideas, and it indoctrinates her niece over time. And her niece basically becomes like. I mean, this is the 80s, but, like, what the 80s version of a QAnon person would kind of be. And even though. And even though she's very smart and she holds it all together, she has these bugs in her brain that have been implanted from her aunt that are there because her aunt was just so charismatic and was the only one who would, like, pay attention to her and, like, treat her like an adult. And it's the same mentality of Capri of, like, would you have gotten swept up in the. In the overall force of it all? Would you have been too weak to resist? Would you have been trying to go along, to get along? Like, what would. What would you do? How would they get you if they got you?

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah, and I think that's. That's always the question, right? It's like, how strong are you? Like, how morally strong are you when faced with evil, actual evil?

[Matt Koplik]

Mm.

[Tom Pasinka]

Because I believe. I do believe evil exists in this world.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, it does.

[Tom Pasinka]

You know, and people who are just, oh, yeah, no, I'm. I'm fucking. I'm an evil person. Like, I'm just. I don't want people to live the way they want to live. I don't want to. I don't want people to, you know, be free or. I don't want people. You know, I think there are a lot of people in this world that are like that, and sometimes they get into power and become dictators and, you know, whatever. Like, we've seen this story over and over and over again, and I think it's like, as the. Is that thing of, like, how do you maintain. In the chaos of this encroaching storm, how do you maintain some sense of your own integrity and agency over the way you think, the way you act, instead of. Because it's so easy to go with the mob, you know, it's. It's so easy to just go, okay, okay. And I think. I think what I did, like, about the ending of the recent revival was the costuming with the suits, because it gave a sense of uniformity of. It is nightmarish to think. It didn't quite make sense to me fully as far as, like, the construction of the. The. The vocabulary and the rules of the production. But I liked the visual of these people who. You've seen the avant garde and like, fun and like sexy and. And. And. And counterculture and. And free are now. Are now. Have now become beige, you know, have now become. They've fallen in line. Yeah. And I think there's an. There's a there that's. That's in some ways scarier than seeing someone in a uniform of a prison. Right. It's like they were locked up. No, they joined, they got. They. They became what they most feared or they became what they most hated or resisted, you know, because it was easy. Yeah, you know, it was. It was easy.

[Matt Koplik]

I think the difference between a community and a mob is that a community is individuals gathering together to create. Not uniformity, but to, you know, create support.

[Tom Pasinka]

A mob.

[Matt Koplik]

You let go of your identity to be part of a whole. And what's interesting is that mobs. People in mobs always think that they're. That they're counterculture, that they are going against the grain, that they're special because they see something that the sheep cannot. But I'm like, no one remembers the individuals of a mob. They just remember. They remember the blob that you are. You people remember the individuals in a community. And in Cabaret and this production, this last production, it started with as a community of. Of weirdos and artists and. And just individuals. A community of individuals. And when it ends, it is. It is a mob of no personalities. It is just joining. Joining the ranks.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah. And I think a community is productive. A community builds something. A mob destroys.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

Like it's.

[Matt Koplik]

To take down.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah. And I think, like, that's the bleakness of it. It's like these people who you saw in the beginning as like, they made this community and this club and this space where people could be expressive and they could make art and performance. And then by the end, you're like, oh, these are the people that are going to tear down or. Or. Or just sit back while the machine just goes and. And. And tears down the rest of it. And I think, you know, and that. That. That. That's. That type of bleakness is more frightening, I think. Yeah. Than. Than seeing or. It's a different. It's a. It's a. I shouldn't say more. I say. I think it's a different type of bleakness than seeing someone who has become a pure victim of a situation. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

It's like. It's like the bleakness of people who've conformed to evil is because. Because in some ways, someone who is. Who is a victim, there's still hope that they will overcome the evil. Right. Because they're like, I. I'm. I'm. I'd rather be in a. I'd rather be in a. In a camp or, Or. Or in. Not that they chose it. Right. But I'd rather be in a space of. Of resistance in some form or faction than be in a space of just surrender.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

You know? Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And there's a. There's an empathy and a sympathy towards an ending with a victim than there is towards a mob of conformity. You know, you can be devastated by the MCs ending in the Sam Mendes production and have that sort of make a profound impact on you that, yes, while it is bleak, it does not make you go out and detest the world. It's more sort of like, well, now that I've gone here emotionally, I have to make sure that I help others so no one can be a victim again. And then this production ending with like, no, you're no different from anyone else. When push comes to shove, you too would join the ranks. It makes you kind of go out and it's. You're not devastated, you just go out and you're kind of numb and spiteful.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah. Like, I remember reading. I forget what the name of the book is called, but it's a Primo Levi book. It's about him surviving the concentration camps. It's. It's hard to read. I mean, it's very hard to read, but because he was a scientist, he talks very scientifically about the way that he approached his survival. And there. But there is a part of the book you're reading where you're With a takeaway feels, wow, like, humans are so resilient and humans are so smart and humans are so. So there. There's such a. A vibrancy in the human spirit. Right. But then the other thing of just, like, what, you know, you hear a story about, you know, people who just were, like, who conformed or. Or whatever, or just gave up, gave over to it. And there's a lot less vibrancy there, you know? Cause that feels like a defeat. That feels like a permanent defeat because you've let the brain worms take over.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

And it's like rotting. It's like, oh, you were Just rotten.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, maybe that's why I find Natasha Richardson's performance of the title song so much more compelling than others, because it is a defiant grasping for that vibrancy of life that you were speaking of. Like, humans have that vibrancy in them, but because that reach for vibrancy comes at the cost of morals and bravery and resilience. It's not resilience in the face of adversity. It's resilience in the face of, like, wet blankets and buzz kills. And ultimately, that's why it becomes a deflating and devastating button for a song that has this energy about it, this electricity about it. And, I mean, I also love that the vamp for Cabaret is the same vamp for Don't Tell Mama, but there's a sinister element to it the second time around that there isn't on the first time. Like, the first time, it just sort of sounds like Weimar Republic Kurt Weill, you know, just like, has that sort of steamy heat to it. And then the second time you hear it, it just sounds so troubling. But it's the same vamp. And I don't know if it's that they do anything different to it or just that the context that it's being repeated in changes it, but it makes a severe impact on me. I mean, listen, there are so many versions of that song you can find on YouTube, both from various women who did that specific revival or the revival of the revival. Or you can watch Liza, you can watch Alison Reed do it in the revival of the Hal Prince production. You can watch Jane Harks do it at the Danmar. And everyone's got a take. And it's interesting to see which ones are the ones that people gravitate towards. For sure.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then. And then, and then. And. And that's what I really admire about. Because I'm not like a. I've sang on Broadway, but I'm not in the musical theater space in the same way that some musical theater actors are. But I.

[Matt Koplik]

Until they do A Chorus Line again. And then you'll be back.

[Tom Pasinka]

That's right. My amazing dancing skills. But I do think that that's, like. That's what makes me want to play certain roles in a more traditional musical theater space. I'd love to play Bobby and Company. I'd love to play George in Sunday. You know, these parts where you can have real interpretation. And it's what. When I see a great musical theater performer, I'm like, that's extraordinary because you've taken not Only a text. But you've taken context, you've taken the music itself, the interpretation of all of these things, and sort of funneled it through an acting performance that's based off of, you know, the. The point of view that you are having. And. And that's why I think it's. That's what I like about revivals, essentially, because you're giving someone another shot.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. At.

[Tom Pasinka]

At making their mark. And that's why. But, like, I think, like, you know, that's why certain things keep getting brought back. It's like Shakespeare, right. It's like, I hate when you, like, put something crazy on top of a Shakespeare play, because Shakespeare is always gonna, like, crawl from the grave and, like. Like, be, like, fight to get out of the whatever, like, pile you've piled on top of it. It's good enough. Like, it's great, but, like, it's like. It's like great musicals and great plays. You can, like, beat them up against the wall forever, and they just won't break, you know?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I've seen some shitty productions of great musicals.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah. But there. But there's still something. You're like, oh, that was great. That's a great musical. You know, that's a great song, or that's a great melody, or that's a great. There's. There's a standard. Talk about standards. I think, like, I see something like Cabaret, and I go, there was a standard through which these people were writing this. You know, it's like they really cared about the structure and that reprise and why it's there, you know?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, these are. It's all men, but these were men who were there for the birth of the golden age of Broadway and saw Rogers and Hammerstein change the game and then watched as other writers started to change the game and realized all the possibilities that were available. And with Cabaret, they put it one step forward. They took everything they knew about how to do a structured book musical, and they did it. Cabaret is still a pretty traditionally structured book musical, but it has these segments within it that give it its own edge. And because of that, it has allowed the show to remain evergreen and allow Liyue for various interpretations over the years. It is set in where it is set in, but because of the limbo of the Kit Kat Club and the murkiness of the lines being drawn between reality and fantasy, especially with some of the rewrites adding in things like maybe this time, it allows it to kind of always just remain pristine.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah. Do you think it was Would you say that it was a turning point in a type of musical theater writing or building?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I mean, it is referred to as the beginning of the concept musical. People don't think of it as such because it does still have quite a story to it. But it is like, you don't want to say, without Cabaret, we don't get Hair or Company or Follies. Like those shows could have still come about, but it is the show that opened the door for them to happen. Because it's also not just that Cabaret existed, it's that it opened and it succeeded. People liked it, it got done, they made a movie. If. If Harvey Fierstein talks about it all the time, like with Broadway, if it doesn't make money, it doesn't count. And it's kind of true, because a show could be the first show to. To show this or do this, but if seven people saw it over the course of three days, no one remembers it, no one cares. It's whatever is the show that is able to do that groundbreaking thing in a way that audiences will feel flock to see it. That's what makes the pivot. And it's entirely possible that there were other Broadway musicals before Cabaret that did more of a concept thing, but Cabaret was able to do it in a way that made audiences want to see it.

[Tom Pasinka]

And as far as Hal Prince goes, right, this was his first directorial.

[Matt Koplik]

It wasn't his first, but this became the guarantor that. I'm speaking in the blank check podcast terms. But this was the show that, like, gave him the blank check as a director because he had a family affair, which he took over and was sort of. He saved a show out of town from being a total disaster. It didn't succeed, it didn't flourish, but it didn't bomb. And then she Loves Me was. Everyone was like, oh, you directed a really lovely musical that we all liked. It only ran for nine months, and we're not entirely sure how responsible you were for its success, but, like, you know, good job. And then Cabaret was the one where it's like, oh, no, you helmed this. You had an eye because it was visually stunning, and they had a whole concept. And so that was where people went, oh, Hal Prince is a legitimate director now. What's interesting is there's a book called the Season that's written by William Goldman, who would go on to write the Princess Bride, and his brother, James Goldman wrote the book for Follies, and he wrote the script for the lion in Winter. And the Season is about the 1967-1968 Broadway season, which is the year after Cabaret. And he's talking about all these long running shows and shows that are coming in. And he has a chapter about Hal Prince and how he's like, great as Cabaret is. I would prefer it if Hal Prince stopped directing because we need him more as a producer. And it's.

[Tom Pasinka]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's. That's one where you're sitting there going like, oh, baby, you don't know what the next 20 years are going to look like.

[Tom Pasinka]

Right, right. Because his Primaril prime primary. Primaril, his primary collaboration was with whom.

[Matt Koplik]

He worked mostly with Sondheim in the 70s. But I mean, he. There were other people. He worked like, he worked with Kander and AB A lot. He did Cabaret with them and Zorba and Kiss the Spider Woman, and he worked with Andrew Lloyd Webber a bunch. Like, his stuff with Sondheim in the 70s is usually considered his prime partnership. But people forget that there are plenty of other writers that he worked with a bunch.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah, I think I saw the only Hal Prince thing I've actually seen. Seen was they did a production of Ken. His production of Candide at New York City Opera a couple years ago, which was great.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

But it felt like of another time, which was also very cool.

[Matt Koplik]

Did you ever see the original Phantom when it was on Broadway?

[Tom Pasinka]

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

There you go. You got two there. Phantom.

[Tom Pasinka]

I got two, yeah. Phantom.

[Matt Koplik]

It's weird to think that, like, the man who did Cabaret then also went on to do Phantom, because Phantom, like, doesn't deal with any real deep stuff, in my humble opinion. But Phantom is sort of an example of there's a different assignment for each show you work on. So for Phantom, he's like, it's gonna be lush, it's gonna run smoothly, and we're gonna sweep up this audience. Like, Phantom is basically vilka min for 2 and a half hours of just, like, constant seduction. Just, like, keep it moving. Don't make them think. Don't make them think. Don't make them think.

[Tom Pasinka]

And that's why it ran for a bajillion years.

[Matt Koplik]

It sure did. I saw it quite a few times. And I will say, like, I don't ever think Phantom will get a better production than that original one.

[Tom Pasinka]

No, I don't. I mean, until it does.

[Matt Koplik]

Until some Jamie Lloyd motherfucker comes around and strips it all down into a black aesthetic with cameras and ASMR sound.

[Tom Pasinka]

Design, which I don't see that much of a stretch. Like, I feel like it could be done. It could be. It could be done. And he's. And he, you know. Well, I don't know how their relationship is. I always hear that they're, like, at odds or something.

[Matt Koplik]

But Andy's at odds with someone at any given day. He's old and he's white and he's rich. He's like. And he's very particular about his music. And any given day, he's got a feud with somebody.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My favorite feud is with Patty. His feud with Patty.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, that is. That's a good one. Patty all is another one. She'd be feuding all the time.

[Tom Pasinka]

All the time.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

She hates that Hell's Kitchen, I'll tell you that much.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, the good news for her is that they're closing soon.

[Tom Pasinka]

That's right.

[Matt Koplik]

It's hard not to hold her personally responsible for it, even though she hasn't been on Broadway in over a year.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Tom, any final thoughts on Cabaret? Anything you want to leave us out on?

[Tom Pasinka]

Any final thoughts on Cabaret?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so you want. But you want to play the mc?

[Tom Pasinka]

I'd like to get a shot at it at some point. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like it's just one of those parts that's just like. You can kind of. It's bl. It's a blanket of slate where you can kind of bring whatever. I mean, I keep bringing up Hamlet, but I think Hamlet is a. Is a bit of a blank slate of a character. I think, similarly, the MC is kind of like this. You can kind of do whatever you want with it within boundaries, but I think it's ethereal in that way. But I just think it would be a lot of fun to do.

[Matt Koplik]

But I.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah, I think. I think just more and more, I am very interested in. I would like to, like, join a show on Broadway, like, be a replacement. Like, I feel like watching, especially with the last revival of Cabaret. Like, I think, like, obviously it was a lot of stunt casting and star casting, but I did think they did a decent enough job. And I see it with Omari, too. I think they're doing a good job at, like, bringing in people that add a different flavor, where it's not like you're just trying to replicate a performance. You can actually come into a production and. And make a little bit of your mark on it.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[Tom Pasinka]

And I'm more interested in that than I used to be. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I think there was a stigma on replacing for a long time. That has mostly gone away in the last couple of years. And especially when, if the material is good, if the role is good, people will just want to play it. So, like, let them play it.

[Tom Pasinka]

I say, yeah, yeah. And just as like, it was very cool to kind of delve into it and discover things that I didn't really know about the history. It was really, really cool to read the different reviews and the Times.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I think what's interesting for me about those reviews is for every review I read for the Times for the original, the Joel Gray revival, the Alan Cumming one, the Alan Cumming revival and then this last one, there's always something keeping it from being perfect for any of those reviewers. And it's never a full blown rave and it always feels like one part of the horse is there and then something falls off. So in the original, he loved everything but the Sally Bowles and then Ben Brantley loved Natasha Richardson as Sally Bowles and he kind of didn't like anything else about that revival. And it's like it kind of goes all over the place and it's just, it's interesting, like there's never a production of category that the Times is like, here it is. No. No complaints from start to finish.

[Tom Pasinka]

Right. And I think, you know, I think we're always like, especially as, as people, as someone who makes the, you know, who's part of the process. It's like I'm always like, oh, you just want to get the full blown rave. But you look back at some of these, like, even Wicked, right. Wicked's been running forever that didn't get a rave in the Times, you know, so it's like, it's like it's not quite always about the things that last are not always the darlings in the way that you would expect them to be. The darlings.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh yeah. It's always interesting to look back at movies or shows and see, you know, what got all the praise that has not necessarily lasted. We did an episode like two or three years ago for the problematic series and we did Promises, Promises. And my guest, Gunkle of the Pod. Adam and I were talking about, like, you read those reviews for the original production of Promises, Promises and it's like the equivalent of Hamilton Reviews where they're like, the theater will never be the same. I've never seen anything so mind blowing my life. And no one does Promises Promises anymore.

[Tom Pasinka]

Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because also sometimes things are out of their time.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Tom Pasinka]

You know, and, and I think. Or. Or timeless, which I think, I think Cabaret definitely, definitely is. It's. It can Always. It can always come back.

[Matt Koplik]

I agree.

[Tom Pasinka]

Because I think. Because I think the central message of it will always be potent.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I think what also helps is that it is just a well written, well structured piece as well. The message is fantastic and it is within a. Is at the center of this well crafted musical. The message itself is always potent and I think that is. That's the recipe you always want for success. Yeah. Yeah. Tom, this has been delightful. Thank you for coming on for this two parter. I will figure out where I'm splitting this in the middle, but because I have to split it down the middle, you get to pick two divas. You want to close out these episodes. So think about that for a second. But while you think about that, where can the listeners find you if you want them to find you? And I believe you have a show coming up that you can plug.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yes, I do. I do. Yeah. So you can find me on Instagram at Tom Pasinka and I have a solo show, 24 Below, happening on February 24th at 9:30pm and it's something I've never done before and I'm really excited for it because if I miss anything about doing Stereophonic, I miss being in a band. So that is the vibe.

[Matt Koplik]

That's amazing.

[Tom Pasinka]

Late night unplugged rock show. And it's going to be fun.

[Matt Koplik]

That.

[Tom Pasinka]

Yeah. And divas. So what do you mean by that?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so at the end of every episode we close out with a Broadway diva. I put audio in post so it doesn't have to be like a headliner. You don't have to pick like Patty or Bernadette, but just like any Broadway lady or Broadway adjacent lady who you would like me to put in post to play out your episode. Okay, our episode, you get two. While you think I'm going to wrap mine up. If you like the podcast guys, give us a nice 5 star rating or review. We've got a couple of reviews that I need to still read. I also encourage you guys to join the Discord Channel where you can talk about the podcast, anything we got wrong or anything you liked about the podcast you want to share with other people. You can also share your thoughts on theater you're seeing or ticket advice on the Discord Channel as well join the Substack where we're also going to have some more written pieces in conjunction with the new episodes. March 6th Friday, March 6th at 7:00 clock at Green Room 42 is our next Broadway Breakdown live show. Sondheim Weber Koplik, A birthday Threesome. Make sure you get your tickets now. And that is that Tom. Oh, and if you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram at Koplik. Usual spelling. Tom, have we figured out our divas?

[Tom Pasinka]

Judy Kuhn. Okay. Is that good?

[Matt Koplik]

You know, that was good.

[Tom Pasinka]

All right. And then. God, who could be another one? And Judi Dench.

[Matt Koplik]

The two Judy's. First of all, how dare you look at me with your cool, Boy, I didn't go to my senior prom eyes being like, is Judy Kuhn a good one? You know, we follow each other on Instagram. You know how I feel about Judy Kuhn. That was absolutely a fuckboy move, and I'm obsessed with it. Judy Kun. Judy Dench. I love that. Both. Okay. Do you have a pro?

[Tom Pasinka]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

No. I'm gonna choose, I think. Yeah. I'm gonna choose which one does which because we got two parts here. Okay, that'll be that. So we'll see you guys next week. I don't know what for yet. It's either how I learned to drive or it's the audio from the last live show or it's a special Tony episode. I don't know. Either way, that's it. Take it away, Judy.

[Tom Pasinka]

Bye. I don't tell Mama, Shasha.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't tell Mama.

[Tom Pasinka]

Don't tell Mama, whatever you do. If you had a secret, you bet I could keep it I would never tell on you I'm breaking every promise that I gave her so won't you kindly do a girl a great big favor?