Deep Dive: DREAMGIRLS (Part 2) w/ Jason Veasey

Summary

---

Broadway Breakdown: Deep Dive – DREAMGIRLS (Part 2)

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Jason Veasey
Date: October 2, 2025

---

Episode Overview

In Part 2 of this passionate and hilariously candid Dreamgirls deep dive, Matt Koplik and guest Jason Veasey dissect the musical’s enduring legacy, explore why a full Broadway revival has never come to fruition, and unpack the show's impact on musical theater vocal aesthetics and representation. Expect thoughtful observations, spicy opinions, inside-baseball Broadway history, and plenty of sharp-fanged humor as the pair alternately fanboy and fuss over everything from casting to costumes to the pitfalls of movie adaptations.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “White Group” Joke & Contemporary Staging Choices

• Matt and Jason open with a riff about the “Dave and the Sweethearts” (the white act that steals the Dreams’ number in Act 1), joking about modern productions economizing on the “white group” cameos.
  • Jason: “It’s expensive for three extra white people for only one feature.” (02:14)
  • Matt notes productions find creative ways—like using the same white actors in other authority roles or as onstage photographers.

2. Heather Headley & The “Origin” of Elphaba Arms

• Matt makes a tongue-in-cheek argument about Heather Headley inspiring Idina Menzel’s “Elphaba arms” (the iconic Wicked gesture), tracing diva physicality lineage from Aida to Wicked.
  • Jason: “Just another black woman being erased by another white woman again.” (04:03)
• They discuss Headley’s career choices and why both she and Jennifer Holliday are strategic about not doing eight shows a week. (05:02–06:09)

3. Dreamgirls and the Evolution of Broadway Vocals

• Jason argues Dreamgirls and Jennifer Holliday’s Effie were revolutionary, raising the bar and expectation for black women’s vocals in a way that, paradoxically, made Broadway more challenging for subsequent performers.
  • Jason: “Jennifer Holliday’s performance as Effy shifted things for black women in ways that… made things a lot harder for black women.” (06:36)
• They trace the progression of demanding female leads through the '80s and '90s: Evita, Dreamgirls, Joseph, then the “mega-musical” era (Les Mis, Cats), followed by American attempts to match that scale (Ragtime, Sideshow, Titanic).
• The 21st century, they argue, brings a shift towards a different kind of vocal demand—highlighting “Legally Blonde” as a crystallization point.
  • Matt: “What makes Elle such a hard role? She is just on stage all the time… everything she sings consistently lives at that BC at the B.” (11:42)

4. Tony Awards & the “Revival” Conundrum

• The duo unpack the wild history of the Tony Awards and the blurry, evolving criteria for revivals versus reproductions—using Dreamgirls’ brief 1987–88 “revival” as a case study.
  • Matt: “The Tonys are wild, man… It used to be like ‘unique theatrical experience’ or something like that.” (13:35)

5. The Legacy (and Burden) of Michael Bennett

• Matt laments how the original Michael Bennett staging of Dreamgirls is considered untouchable—making prospective revivals daunting for contemporary directors.
  • Matt: “I’m challenging everyone to think… these are very specific, unique geniuses… Michael Bennett’s staging… you can’t do the show without them.” (21:29)
• Comparison to the Chicago movie: why that adaptation works, and what Dreamgirls' film may be missing in cinematic rhythm. (23:08–25:02)

6. Dreamgirls on Film: Hits, Misses, & Culture Shock

• The 2006 Dreamgirls film is dissected: Matt and Jason agree much works (“When the movie works, it works brilliantly” (29:33)), but express frustration at the adaptation’s hesitancy to fully embrace its own musical-theater roots, editing choices, and narrative pacing.
  • Jason: “The biggest mistake… is they apologize for the fact that it’s a fucking musical.” (24:44)
  • They discuss the stunt of turning sung-through scenes into dialogue, and the missed opportunity for the film to be unapologetically “a musical.”

7. Ownership, Possessiveness, and the Challenge of a New Revival

• Directors with deep, almost possessive attachment to Dreamgirls may be too reverential, stifling attempts at a fresh approach.
  • Jason: “I think the person to come and do… Dreamgirls is someone who might not have an attachment to it.” (33:35)
• Matt and Jason call for new visionaries—possibly from outside the usual Broadway circles or even not yet born—to reimagine but also honor the work’s core.

8. The Heart of Dreamgirls: More Than Divas

• Both hosts caution against divafication and fan-service, insisting Dreamgirls is about the lived experiences and personal journeys of three black women in a specific historical context—not merely a vehicle for vocal fireworks or costume extravaganza.
  • Matt: “It’s not about Battle of the Divas. It’s so much more than that… there’s identity of being black in this country, of being important country and progress and compromise…” (36:29)
  • Jason: “If I walk away from a production and remember that this is a story about three women, so much of the work is really done.” (39:29)

9. Dreamgirls’ Characters: Age, Agency, and Growth

• They reflect on the maturity of the dream girls, particularly Deena’s journey to self-realization and autonomy.
  • Jason: “Let’s also remind ourselves at this point in time… I’ve never gotten a person feel like any older that Deena’s any older than, like, mid-30s.” (42:55)

10. Critique of Revival Attempts & National Tours

• Analysis of the 2009 national tour: praise for Adrienne Warren’s sassy Lorrell, disappointment in some misguided attempts at spectacle (e.g., unnecessary costume changes), and the difference between honoring legacy and understanding dramatic function.
  • Matt: “Moments from that original staging… recreated without fully comprehending why those moments were those moments.” (64:00)

11. Dreamgirls as a White (Gay) Fantasia

• The show’s origins (written by white men, made with and about black voices, for a diverse Broadway audience) present unique challenges and tensions around ownership, authenticity, and who has the right to reinterpret.
  • Jason: “It is the best and most quality example of oh, oh, gay white fantasia of a certain time period. It is their love letter to the big black woman that’s inside of us.” (72:06)

12. Why Does Dreamgirls Endure?

• The pair conclude Dreamgirls offers thrilling music, dynamic roles, a dramatic rise-and-fall arc, aspirational performance challenges, and a resonance—especially for black Americans—rooted in authenticity, representation, and historic musical idioms.
  • Jason: “People gravitate towards it because… it feels accurate. It sounds accurate. They recognize those sounds. They recognize those voices. It’s a great entryway into musical theater.” (77:27)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the iconography of Dreamgirls:
  • Matt (06:36): “Some could say [Dreamgirls] started and shifted things. There are two performances… that shifted things for black men and women, specifically for black women.”
• On the challenge of reviving Dreamgirls:
  • Jason (33:41): “I want to see what happens when anyone who could be in Dreamgirls actually gets to direct Dreamgirls.”
• On Michael Bennett vs. today’s directors:
  • Matt (21:29): “I’m challenging everyone… these are very specific, unique geniuses… no one gets it right consistently enough.”
• On the movie adaptation’s musical diluting:
  • Jason (24:44): “The biggest mistake… is they apologize for the fact that it’s a fucking musical.”
  • Matt (26:31): “What makes this work is the constant music…”
• Dreamgirls’ deeper message:
  • Matt (36:29): “It’s not about Battle of the Divas… it’s about identity… in this country, [and] progress and compromise.”
• On the repeated “threats” of revivals:
  • Jason (70:05): “They’re threats. That’s how I feel every time they’re saying, we’re making this movie a musical, I’m like, is that a promise or a threat?”
• Meta-commentary on authorship:
  • Jason (72:06): “It is their homage to this outdated idea that they have an African American goddess inside of them and their love for all of those women that remind them of that…”
• On enduring appeal and why Dreamgirls continues:
  • Jason (77:27): “It’s a juggernaut. People want to either crack the code, which, frankly, there’s no such thing as recreating that kind of lightning in a bottle.”

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• “White group” cameo & modern staging jokes: 02:00–03:10
• Heather Headley / Elphaba arms / diva gesturing: 03:32–05:02
• Changing vocal demands on Broadway: 06:36–11:47
• Tony Award ‘revival’ history: 13:03–15:24
• Original production’s moving staging & Bennett’s genius: 21:29–24:18
• Dreamgirls (2006) film adaptation analysis: 24:18–34:00
• Revivals, movie adaptation & ‘ownership’ debates: 33:35–39:29
• Why Dreamgirls isn’t just ‘divas & glamour’: 36:29–41:55
• Laurell, Michelle, & the show’s structural challenges: 44:40–48:26
• National tour & casting woes: 63:06–67:23
• ‘Gay white fantasia’ and authentic authorship talk: 72:06–75:10
• Why Dreamgirls endures—cultural resonance: 77:27–81:44

---

Final Thoughts

Matt and Jason’s conversation serves as both a love letter to Dreamgirls and a rallying cry for future creative teams: to approach the material with reverence, but not fear; with innovation, but not showboating; and always with respect for the powerful, complex women at its heart. Their expert insights, ribald humor, and deep knowledge make this a must-listen (or must-read!) for theater fans, and especially for anyone invested in Dreamgirls and the art of musical revival.

---

Next Up:
Hedwig and the Angry Inch with Preston Max Allen (UPDATE: Episode schedule changed—next up is Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf with Kevin Zak)

---

Signoff: “Hit me with a hot note and watch me burn!” —Cheryl Freeman, "Play On" (86:45)

---

Transcript

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, the Crystal Room is proud to present the club debut of America's new recording stars, the Dreams.

[B]

Every man has his own special dream.

[A]

And your dreams come just about to come true. Life's not as bad as it may seem if you open your eyes to what's in front of you. Hello, all you theater lovers both out and proud down the DL and welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Matt's Picks, and it's covering shows that you submitted that I didn't pick out of a bowl for grab bag, but I wanted to cover it anyway. This is Dreamgirls Part 2 dose. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of the Broadway podcast hosts. And we are back. He did not run away just yet, but let's see if we can get him to do it this time. Please welcome back Jason V. I'm still here. Hey, daddy. I love that deep voice. I was telling Jason off Mike before we started. And this is why everyone needs to join the substack so they can see this visual here. Jason, you know, in the sequence Cadillac car, where Curtis, I don't want to say seduced, but galvanizes James Thunder Early's troupe and Cece and James himself to join his cause of. We're gonna cross over to the pop charts, and we gotta really show everyone what black artistry can do. We're gonna make this country change. And we follow their touring and they do their pop song. They take what Curtis's song, and Cece makes it a pop song. And they do it and it goes well. And we get to move me. Move me right to the top. And what gets revealed after Move me right to the top.

[B]

Who.

[A]

Who comes out on stage.

[B]

After right to the top? Yep. Dave and the sweetheart. The white. The white. The white.

[A]

The white coming out singing Gotch me a Cadillac, Cadillac car.

[B]

And all the constants and plosives are intact.

[A]

Mm. Look at me, mister, I'm a star. Look at me, mister, I'm a star.

[B]

I don't even think productions do that anymore. What they'll do is they'll hire. They'll, like, hire three white people and record it, and then it's given, like, a small check or percentage or they'll just have some black people behind a scrim and do it in silhouette. It's expensive for three extra white people for only one feature.

[A]

Well, then have the white guy be like the. The other agent at the Democratic National Convention. Have him be the one at the end of it's all over going. Let's go. Just give him.

[B]

What about the. What about. What about the ladies? Just. There got to be dancer tracks.

[A]

They will be photographers for the Vogue photo shoot.

[B]

Have.

[A]

Have the one white girl do the ORFA solo. And, ladies, do you mind if we had one picture with Ms. Jaws alone? That's what they did on Broadway.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

I think. Think in order to keep it honest, you. You give. I hate to say this, because it's like I want to give everybody solos, but you give, like, your one white girl and your one white guy, like the solos of authority and the ensemble numbers. So, like, in all the press conferences, it's the white person who speaks, because the phrase is very important. But anyway. Yeah, that wasn't the point of the joke, though. The point of the joke was I said, hey, Jason.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know that Heather Headley is responsible for the Elphaba arms, because Heather Headley is James Thunder early and the Dreamettes and Idina Menzel is Dave and the Sweethearts. Because before there was Wicked, there was Heather Headley in a little show called Aida. And what Heather would do in a duh is she would have her arms one. See, this is why everybody needs to see the video. She would do this right. It's enough. And what do we see in all the photos for Wicked, for all the alphabets? Just that. Just that.

[B]

Just another black woman being erased by another white woman again.

[A]

Well, let's be fair, green woman. But, you know, privilege is privilege.

[B]

Fair. That's true. You know, it makes me think Idina came in and played Amneris after sharing his dad. That's probably where she got the damn idea from. I have a great archetypal gesture.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

The other day.

[A]

Yeah. She was watching the show as she was in her final callback, she watched Heather do those arms, and she said, huh, I guess I have my new move now.

[B]

The Ayenature Redwood Pipeline. Why Heather's responsible.

[A]

Why Idina Menzel is still chasing, defying gravity? Heather, meanwhile, is like, you know what's wonderful? The ground I was like, I love being on right here.

[B]

I just showed. Do you ever think that there was a world where they came to her and asked if she wanted to play Elphaba?

[A]

Heather Headley.

[B]

Yes. Maybe earlier on.

[A]

I am positive that every year, like, four different Broadway productions approach Heather Headly. And every year she's. And every year she says no. She's very particular about her stage work now, which I appreciate. Because, listen, she and Jennifer Holiday are in the same boat. They're both are. Like, eight shows a week is insane. I hate the life I have to live in order to do it. I do love doing theater. I just hate the routine I have to go through. And Heather doesn't have to do eight shows a week anymore. So she's like, if it's worth it, I'll do it.

[B]

And also, Heather. Heather. I have this theory about Heather, that Heather also has found great success playing roles that have. Well, Aida was, you know, on, written on, and of course, physically for her instrument. But I can imagine being someone from anywhere that came to prominence before 2003 being like, you want me to come back and sing scores from this? No, I see what Charlie. No, I see what you. I see what you have these little children. I'm not doing that. Yeah, I'll be over here.

[A]

Heather's like, I don't need to hit that note at the end of Dance of the Robe anymore. I've proven myself. I have my Tony. I got my hardware.

[B]

She's like, I'm looking back. I didn't need to hit it back then. I could have just stayed on that B flat.

[A]

Yep, that's what it was originally. This the notes that so many of these, we'll call them composers, make actors sing now is just rude. And just keep showing their ass that they don't know how to write for the human voice and don't know how to write a melody or how to structure a song. They just go, okay, can you go to the roof of your register? Thank you so much. Which brings us to Dreamgirls, Jason, which.

[B]

Some could say started and shifted things. I do. I will say there are two performances that I've heard many people say shifted things for black men and women, specifically for black women. I think that Jennifer Holliday's performance as Hefy shifted things for black women in ways that ended up being creating things, making things a lot harder for black women in the way that Billy Porter as the teen angel shifted things for black men, but specifically black tenors. Because of the type of vocal we had never seen those type. Type of full balls the wall, actual gospel vocals like that. Eight shows a week. We had not seen things like that. Even in your arms to start your box of God. It's definitely more of a metal vibe, more of an old school thing, but like full out anointed praise and worship vocals.

[A]

Yeah, that.

[B]

That. That is. It was such a glorious debut for those kind of vocals on. On. On The American stage, but also the setup of the Center 1000. Those two. Those two vocals.

[A]

I think with Dream Girls, it is the.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

Kismet is a little too positive a word, considering where we are now. But it's the 1, 2, 3, punch of Patti LuPone and Evita in 79, and then Jennifer Holiday in Dream Girls and Lori Beachman in Joseph. Literally a year and a half later, those three shows within 18 months of each other.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, this is what we're doing now.

[B]

Yes. And women. Women.

[A]

Yeah. Because the 70s is this, like, transitional period. Because we have. We're coming right out of Melba Moore and Pearly and Betty Buckley in 1776, where it's like, those are anomaly special novelty numbers. Like, you will get. You'll get a song that does that now, but not always. Like, you'll get your Maggie at the ballet. You'll get things like that, but it's not consistently the evening. And then Evita, Dream Girls, Joseph followed up with, you know, Les Mis becomes like, no, this is the evening now. This is where we live. This is where we live.

[B]

Those three are the first appearances of the. What I call the quadrant of E4 of the hardest female identified roles all start with Evita, Effie, Elleph.

[A]

Yep. Okay, so Elle. I've talked about Elle a little bit. We did a re. Blunt episode. And then I swear we're gonna get to the legacy of Dreamgirls. But. So I have a whole narrative with the vocalization of women on Broadway.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And. Well, and of Broadway singing in general. But, like, the 80s gives us the mega musical.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And the 90s becomes American writers trying to react to the mega musical, which is what gives us these bombastic scores that I love of Titanic.

[B]

Ragtime, Ragtime.

[A]

Jekyll and Hyde.

[B]

Jekyll and Hyde, yes.

[A]

Sideshow.

[B]

That's my. My, My. My peers prying.

[A]

Yeah, well. Cause it's. It's. You have that same quality of dynamics with, I would argue, you know, maybe meteor material. I don't think all those scores work as, like, There's a debate to be had of, like, how well does Les Mis work? How well does Evita work? Or Cats, whatever. And that's up for debate. And that's not what we're doing here. But you have writers taking that same aesthetic towards something like a ragtime or a parade or a sideshow. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. You have at that era of the 90s, you have your Audra's, your Marin's, your Alice's and Emily's, your Linda's, your Rebecca's, who are singing with the heaviness of the mega musical.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And on.

[B]

On. On. On Voice.

[A]

On Voice and the Carolees. And that dies in the 21st century. Because then what happens is we start to get. There's no one show that specifically does it, but I would argue Brooklyn. Brooklyn before Brooklyn. Brooklyn is not the. Is not the pivoting turn. I would say that the first grain of sand into the machine is actually Aida, not with Heather, but with Sherry.

[B]

With Sherry.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So would you not say, if that's the case, would you not. Even though it's the 90s, would you not put the role of Maureen into that before Emenarius?

[A]

No. Because Maureen is a little more rock. Or the way that Adina sings it. Because Sherry with Aida, that. Then going into Sheri with Last five years.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Then connects to Adina in Wild Party and Wicked.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Which then goes into Kerry Butler in Hairspray and then Lori Bell Bundy in Legally Blonde. And Legally Blonde, I would argue, is when it all crystallizes and just. That's where it lives now.

[B]

It's smooth.

[A]

Thank you very much.

[B]

That was very smooth that you did that. I really loved that. That was brilliant.

[A]

See this arm here? It's hairy, but it's smooth. But what makes Elle such a hard role? Elle is not even the most vocally difficult of all the roles of the 21st century. It's more that she is just on stage all the time and everything. She sings consistently. Lives at that BC at the B. Yeah.

[B]

Which is hard for most people. And she has to dance and she's got to be funny.

[A]

Yep. And as we know. And as we know, Jason, women, famously, are not funny.

[B]

They just. They just can't do it. But it's the break. It's that where that is in the sport. It's just that B.C. thing, which is just. It just chokes them out every time.

[A]

Well, so much better. There's. There's audio of Carrie Butler doing so much better because I think Carrie was the first Ellen readings. And so much Better used to be higher. And I understand why they eventually lowered it because they're like, we don't want to totally kill her, but, like, it's one of those things where it should. It needs to be like a step down or a step up because it's like. It's right at that point.

[B]

It was probably easier for Carrier Carrie. It was probably easier.

[A]

It's easier for. It's easier for present day, Carrie Butler. Are you kidding me? I went to go see Heather's and Carrie Butler has one song in Act 2 and it's the. She sounds exactly the same as she did in Beetlejuice, which is exactly the same as she sounded in Bad Boy. And I'm like, you fucking witch, what deal did you make with Satan?

[B]

I don't know what she did, but she signed it because like she's, she, she is, she is. Her voice has been. Whatever it is, it sounds youthful. Like to me like the roles that she plays are like the white girl version of like what I want out of a rel to do. He opens her mouth and she's already on the top part of it.

[A]

I think Carrie White Laurel is about as safe as we can get there. I think everyone can laugh and agree with that one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So do you know the like, sort of story around that 88 revival of Dreamgirls that Lilias brought to Broadway?

[B]

I, I, this is the thing that I always get confused with because there's. Because it wasn't like it was unheard of or I'm always confused about why it was nominated for a Tony because it was the same production but also like a Miss. The Haven is similar thing where they had initial run and then they came back a few years later with some of the original cast and multi original.

[A]

Cast with the entire original cast. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So I thought it was just a thing that happened.

[A]

The Tonys are wild, man. They. It used to be like revival was the category was something like unique theatrical experience or something like that. God, this. Are you ready to be either impressed or scared of me?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

When Company was on Broadway, they were, it was somewhat of like Dream Girls 9 vibe. They were like the front runner for the Tonys because they had been open for like almost a full calendar year when the Tonys were rolling around and like two months before the Tony cutoff comes. No, no. Nanette, which is a big old hit. And the Tonys were figuring out what they were going to do with no no net. Because they're like, well, yeah, it's been around. Like it hasn't been on Broadway in 45 years. And there was no Tony Awards then. And the book is kind of revised. Like, do we consider it a new musical? And Hal Prince wrote to them and he was like, you better not. It's not a new musical. So they didn't.

[B]

I will kill you.

[A]

He's like, I will literally burn this entire island to the ground. And he's like. And I, Hal Prince I will do it. So they nominated for basically everywhere else that could be considered, but musical and company won. But then about a couple years later, they then create the Unique Theatrical Experience Award, basically sort of as a response to that, of like, well, these revivals are happening and we have new productions of shows happening and they need recognition. So that became the Unique Theatrical Experience thing, which is, I believe either Candide was the first production to get that, or it was like the first show to have some sort of acknowledgement before it became a competitive category. And plays and musicals used to be nominated together for that.

[B]

Together. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. And then it became revival and. Or reproduction, I believe, in 1980, because then we had things like west side Story and Sweet Charity coming, which were full blown recreations of the original productions with the original team as well.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And. And I know Speech Charity did win, so Amos Behaven was like that. It was a recreation with the entire original company. Dreamgirls was a national tour. So the original Dreamgirls, you know, opens on Broadway and they open up a second company in LA that Jennifer. Yeah, in LA that they opened with. Jennifer Holiday, Full blown recreation, the whole thing. And it was.

[B]

That's when that Lilith goes into.

[A]

Correct, yes. As her. As her. As her standby, and then ends up going on more than she never does. And. Which is Lily's own words. And I think they made it to like two more cities and then they had to shut down. It was similar to the Sunset Boulevard tour of like, they did not think wisely about the financial logistics. They're like, oh, we can't run this thing right and make any kind of profit. So they shut it down and they streamlined it and took away all the automation. So the. The lighting towers, which are very crucial to the design because the whole thing about Dream Girls is it. For those who are unaware, Dreamgirls is known as the show that never stops. It just keeps moving. And was really the first musical to do that, to just constantly be moving, look like a movie. And part of that was the design was so abstract. And so the lighting towers were moved around by cast members. And it was just. It was the original Broadway production, but scaled down a little bit. And about three years after the original production closed, that tour came back in a smaller theater with Lilias and that company. And so it was the original, but smaller. And so they got away with the revival win because they had had that reproduction stuff earlier, but also, like, it was a little different from the original. But the more important thing was that on a smaller scale, critics changed Their tune on the show. And I don't think it was the cultural pressure of, oh, this show was a hit. Even though we didn't like it very much because that had happened already by that point. It happened with Evita. It happened with Cats. Like, they had no problem saying, okay, well, the masses are stupid. They came back to it five years later and they went, oh, we were a little too harsh on this show. There's something here. And in their reviews, they don't say, hey, writers, we were wrong to doubt you. They're like, hey, Michael Bennett, thank you so much for simplifying your super Las Vegas Y staging so we could recognize that this is a good musical.

[B]

Had he passed already by the time this happened?

[A]

I believe he passed a few months after that. He was in on the west coast dying. But yeah, he. Because. Yeah, because that. That 88 Tonys was when they did their honor of him. But yeah, that. That's to this day, the only final Broadway production we've had at Dreamgirls. We haven't had a revival of Dreamgirls since 1987.

[B]

I think about this all the time because I feel like ever since I've been in the city for something longer, it's always that show. There, like always some sort of threat at this point in time of a revival of Dream Girls. And I can't pinpoint why it never comes to fruition. I have theories, but unlike, say, something like Company, where I feel like it's in its nature to. To be messed with because there's something beautiful about it. Feeling a little uncomfortable. I think the issue is people just try to do too. God damn. They try to make it for the ages or they. They, they. There's something about Dream Girls that they always go wrong when they try to put hats on top of the fascinator that's already on top of them.

[A]

They. Because Dreamgirls has a reputation for being epic. People try to out epic the epic.

[B]

You're saying, yes, yeah, yeah, Or. Or. Or fix it. And not that. Like, there can't be fresh perspectives. But I think there's already so much material there. Just explore more of that material more as opposed to making it look even more cinematic than it already actually is.

[A]

Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts and they. They're all over the place. So bear with me, because in order to further discuss why we have not had a Broadway production since 1987, we have to then talk about all the times Dreamgirls has come back to us in some form.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The first major one Being the Actors Fund concert, which major and beautiful historical artifact of preserving the full score. Yes. With a fully stacked cast. It's beyond, absolutely beyond. The orchestra sounds great, but so we have that and then we have the movie, which comes out in 07, I want to say 06 07. And the movie does well, but it doesn't do as well as I think people were hoping. And I want to talk to you about the movie as well, because we've been hinting at it a little bit. It sounds like you and I have similar thoughts on the movie. We probably. I'm sure there are parts that we disagree on and I look forward to hearing about those. But from the movie, we then get the national tour that opens at the Apollo and travels the country and was absolutely planning on coming into Broadway. That was. That was a test run to see if that could work.

[B]

It was, it was, it was. Yeah. It's unfortunate because its biggest obstacle was.

[A]

That, yeah, the movie was its biggest obstacle. But also this is the other thing, because then after that we have. We don't really hear about Dreamgirls much again until its West End premiere, directed by Casey Nicholaw. And I'm going to say something that is going to ruffle some feathers. We don't really have a director, choreographer working today at the level of Michael Bennett. That does not mean we don't have wonderfully talented, smart people. But I'm challenging everyone to think when we talk about Michael Bennett's, Bob Fosse, Jerome Robbins, these are very specific, unique geniuses. And genius does not necessarily mean smarter than anyone, more self aware than anyone. Michael Bennett, Bob Fosse, John Robbins famously were like emotionally dumb people who were terrible with actors because they knew what a good performance was. They didn't know how to get it out of them. So they played all these mind games and did really shitty things.

[B]

There's different from. There's different types of intelligence. Yeah, we can definitely be exactly there.

[A]

But their genius. But their genius was even if they weren't an actor's director, even if they couldn't do dramaturgy, they just intrinsically knew what made something work. They didn't always get it right. No one ever does. But when they did get it right, it became the stuff of history. And Michael Bennett's staging of A Chorus Line and his staging of Dream Girls are considered two of the most iconic pieces of staging of all time. You can't do the show without them. I mean, Chorus Line, you legally can't. But like with Dream Girls, there are moments In Dream Girls that people will do, not knowing that they are doing Michael Bennett staging.

[B]

They just.

[A]

They just think like, well, you got to do that in the show. It's like, yeah, because Bennett created that. And so there's already the competing with the legacy and the history of this original staging that is so iconic. And then also me honestly challenging everyone to think of finding someone out there who has that genius naturally in them, someone who has the vision to do something new and bold that no one's seen before, while also just fundamentally understanding in their DNA, musicals, how they move, how fast they go, when they have to slow down, when they stop. Like, everyone has had, like, their moments where they've gotten it right, but no one gets it right consistently enough where I feel like. Do you know what I mean? Like. So, for example, the example I like to give, this isn't even staged, but this is film. I do listen to a lot of movie podcasts and a lot of really pretentious movie people like to shit on the Chicago movie, which I think is stupid.

[B]

Are you serious?

[A]

Not shitting on it is the wrong word. They.

[B]

That's weird.

[A]

They'll joke and be like, it's not as, you know, good as these other movies. Or like, it wasn't even the best one of its year, but it was post 9 11. Everyone wanted to feel good. I'm like, fuck you all. Listen, I'm not here telling you that Rob Marshall is our modern day Fellini. He's not. No one can look through the Little Mermaid remake and go, oh, yes, Stanley Kubrick over here.

[B]

But he put his foot in that Chicago musical. He expanded upon the material.

[A]

That movie is perfect.

[B]

Yes. And so good.

[A]

And not only just perfect. It's air fucking tight. It moves, it keeps moving. It stops when it needs to. I have not seen a movie musical before. Chicago, maybe little shot maybe where the button of a song becomes the sound cue for the next scene so there is no applause break. You just go right from one to the other. Like, that movie just barrels forward and you are along for the ride. In a way that I think of when people talk about Michael Bennett with Dream Girls, I'm like, that thing just knew how to keep going and one thing bled into the other. And for all of the movie musicals we've had of this century that are going from terrible to amazing, the one thing that a lot of them don't always get right is the momentum and the rhythm.

[B]

Right?

[A]

That is something that I actually have issues with with the movie is for all the things about it that I think work. I'm actually every time I rewatch it, I keep being surprised how bumpy I find it to be. It's. I find it to be a choppy film.

[B]

Do you feel like part one? I will say this. I think part of the issue I always find, especially in the last 15 years, the biggest mistake that people make is they apologize for the fact that the fucking musical. Yep.

[A]

All the time.

[B]

Something like Dream Girl. Do you think that the bumpiness comes in them not really knowing how to decide which moments it's all musicalized, which moments they are going to demusicalize? Do you think that that adds to the bumpiness of the movie?

[A]

Short answer is yes. Part of me. Part of me wishes that they had made the movie. Now post Wicked, Post Wonka World, where as it turns out, the movie musicals that. And I don't even say it, I hate it. But it was successful. Opposed Greatest Showman World, like the movie musicals that fully embrace the musical are the ones that have done the best.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And Dreamgirls had the misfortune, timing wise of Post Chicago, pre Wicked Greatest Showman of that time of movie musical making where directors were like, how do we scale back the musical theater ness of this and make this more serious movie? Like with Rent and with Phantom and with Dream Girls, like taking retrof and making it dialogue.

[B]

Dialogue. Right.

[A]

What makes, what makes this work is the constant music. If Phantom were a play, it would have run for a night, a single night.

[B]

Next. I already. I'm already next with it to begin with. If it were a play.

[A]

Out within the first five minutes.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

And Dreamgirls. The music is what propels it and the singing is what propels it. And I think that Bill Condon found himself stuck between a rock and a hard place because he's like, I can't make. And I am telling you a performance number. It is a non diegetic scene.

[B]

It is.

[A]

Or say the scene is diegetic. The music is non diegetic.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so he was like, okay, I have to have a world where that happens. But also I don't. I can't just like open up with Retief. So he tries to sneak it in for the first time and step into the bad side.

[B]

Which is so weird. Yes.

[A]

It's so weird. And most people don't clock it. So family is really the first time you get it. And every time I saw in theaters, I saw three times in theaters. Every time the audience laughed when Jennifer Hudson went, what about what I need? Everyone Just like was. What the is this? I'm sitting here going, no, Bill Condon, open up with Don't Touch Me Marty. Like, just do it. Go.

[B]

Just do it.

[A]

Just do it. It's. It is. We're already in a theater. The momentum is kicking in. We're gonna tell us immediately what kind of movie this is and go with it. He also is so insistent on adding the political and societal climate of the era that it's set in and actually going super deep on. No, no, no. This is an allegory for the Supremes and for Motown to the point that it stops being Dreamgirls and starts being a warmed over bio of Diana Ross. There are things that I that, that work. I think that the filming of Fake it right at the top works really great. I think the way that they film the title song, as you said, with Dream Girls is.

[B]

I think it's a gay fantasia.

[A]

I love it. On national themes, one might say. Yes, there's a lot, there's a lot of wonderful stuff in there. My disappointment with the movie in present day, I don't want it to sound like I don't like the movie at all or there's nothing to recommend it. I also cannot. Do you remember back in the day Variety and like Entertainment Weekly and Hollywood Reporter would have these for your consideration ad campaigns?

[B]

Yes, of course they do.

[A]

So when Dream Girls was coming out, when I tell you that no one on the island of Manhattan was more excited than me, little 16 year old faggy me, I would rip out all of the four year consideration ads that they would have because it would always be a new one. Every week they had new ones. And I lined my wall with it and I.

[B]

And your bedroom.

[A]

And my bedroom. I. I couldn't, I could not have been more prepared. I find out that they're showing the trailer like before some. I think it's like before Running with Scissors or something. And I make three friends go with me to Running with Scissors or whatever movie it was to see it.

[B]

The trailer. Oh my God.

[A]

And then I ended up going to a private screening of Dream Girls and when I tell you that I. Again, I was like, Santa Claus is real. He's been so good to me.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I, and I loved it at the time. And I saw it two more times and when they didn't get nominated for Best Picture, I was like, what is wrong with the world? And I kind of put Dream Girls to bed for a few years and I didn't really come back to it till after college. And I Was like, oh, this is still quite good. Not as good as I remember, but it's still quite good. And then I came back to it two or three years ago for a project I was doing on 21st century movie musicals. And I'm like, oh, when this movie works, it works brilliantly.

[B]

Brilliantly.

[A]

But there are. There are bumps, and I don't think the. I think that it is stacked with talent. I think it looks stunning. There are some shots that are incredible. There are other shots where I'm like, oh, that was for the trailer. You didn't need that. The. The mo. The move number is edited within an inch of its life and in the best way.

[B]

Don't you think? Or no, you don't like it half and half. Okay, there's.

[A]

There's no shot that I don't like. It's just too much. There's a shot.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

Bill Condon has so many shots in there where I'm like, that's. It's a great shot. It's one out of, like, 90. I'm kind of getting overdrive. Because you've got a shot. You got a shot of Effie. We got a shot of Laurel. Then we get a shot of Curtis watching Effie. We got a shot of Effie watching Curtis. We then get a shot of someone in the audience, like, raising their arms up for Jesus. Then we got a shot of one of the judges watching the dreams and the dreams being reflected in his glasses. It's a great shot, but it's like the 30th shot we've now had.

[B]

Right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right.

[A]

Same way about stepping to the bad side, which is a great number. And I'm like, I need Bill Condon to take out, like, 10 of his cutaways. Because the cutaways that are fucking fire don't pop as high for me when they are sandwiched between four quick jump cuts. Do you mean. Which I would argue you could also say is, like, maybe one of the. One of the few issues of the Chicago movies. Like, it is cut within an inch of its life. It's edited within an inch of its life. But I also think that the editing in Chicago is edited towards rhythm in the same way that, like, Bob Fosse edited his movies to rhythm. Like he would edit on the beat or on the offbeat and Dream Girls. It doesn't always happen that way. But that's also. That's my memory from 18 months ago. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean?

[B]

You're the top.

[A]

Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread. I also dislike that they cut Ain't no Party. I disliked a bunch of other stuff.

[B]

Well, I mean, and that's the thing is, like, if I can get a little heady about it. One of the things that I think in reference when going back to your first point about, like, finding that person who could really do this, this piece. Well, I think one of the main things that comes with these major revivals is I think possessiveness or ownership over the piece is getting in the way. Meaning a lot of the director, choreographers or directors and foreigners who are getting the chance, opportunity to head off the major revivals or these major threats that I'm going to call them are people whose lives were changed by the piece and were of the age where either they were a peer of Michael Bennett or after Michael Bennett. So, like the. Let's call it the Jerry Mitchell age. Like the ones who were young enough for the beginning of the epidemic, but survived the peak of the epidemic in the 90s. Those are the ones who. Dream Girls was also, like a wrench for them. And it seems like they consistently get to head off these productions every single time. They always say that they're starting from a place of loving this. This being. And I don't think that that's a bad thing to say, but I think it's what gets in the way of it. I think the person to come and do a thing or something with Dream Girls is someone might not have an attachment to. And I don't know if we can find someone that can do both. I think the problem is, is that you had someone who did both who could direct it and choreograph it. And I don't know if they make that brand anymore. And anyone that's of age to do it, that I can. That I can think of now, that also wouldn't be the same thing that we've seen. I do think it's time to see what happens when someone who can Dream Girls gets to direct Dream Girls.

[A]

Absolutely. Except for me. I get to do it.

[B]

You get an honorary shot.

[A]

I get one pass.

[B]

Or I want to see what happens when anyone who could be in Dream Girls actually gets to use it directly.

[A]

Oh, my God, yes.

[B]

You know, so I don't know. I feel like. I feel like the movie. The thing that I love about the movie is that it introduced this piece of theater to people, unfortunately, because they were apologizing you know, for being a musical, the people, the general public met the wrong person, in my opinion, you know, what they did to the character of Laurel, I just think is kind of crazy and foolish. I think that they had the odds stacked against them with wasn't about taking some songs and turning them into dialogue. I think they had a hard time choosing. Sure. There were some other moments that I feel like that's the moment you could have not musicalized. Like, for example, like Heavy to me works so much better when it's musicalized. I don't care what anyone says. It's so much a better montage moment when it's musical. I think that the fact that the first time that, you know, Curtis was supposed to love me, it's very jarring. Also, you have to remember too, unless you're someone like us or who was in New York theater who actually heard and knew about the Actors Fund benefit concert. I knew friends of mine who were into theater who never listened to the Actors Fund benefit Concert. They only listened to the original cast recording. And the movie was jarring for them because they themselves did not realize the entire thing was sung through either.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. But I think also, you know, you and I listen to the actors fun concert not knowing about all the song through ness and the recitative, but we hear it and it makes sense because it was workshopped to an appoint to not apologize for it and have it be a vocabulary that was being used the entire time. And the movie is so inconsistent with that. Which is why. Why, you know, Kurt is supposed to love me so jarring. I agree. I think songs like Heavy should be sung. The. The fight sequence is so much more dynamic and interesting. The way it is written that does. And Dream Girls is also for me as a show, it's such a ball of fire that just sort of keeps rolling. And too many people view it as diva worship. And now listen, there are divas to worship in that show. We got women looking and sounding amazing, but that is more sort of a. A result of the iconary that we are watching. I had a. An acquaintance who was applying for a directing fellowship and he had never seen the show on stage. I think he might have seen the tour at one point, but he mostly just knew the movie and his like, he was kind of going for what we would now call a Jamie Lloyd ism, which he wanted screens and all this stuff and he wanted the whole thing to sort of be like a concert. He's like, I want it to be like Battle of the Divas. And he sent it to me to sort of get my thoughts. And I said, this isn't what the show's about. I said, it's not about Battle of the Divas. It's, you know, it's, it's, it's so much more than that. And there's identity of, of being black in this country, of being important country and progress and compromise and given pull and, and identity and all these things. I said, and I said, that's what's at the root. Just because it's not overtly being talked about in every scene doesn't mean that's not what's tying it all together.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

Like there's never a scene where Effie and Dina are like, listen, as a black woman with, with something to say. Like, no, first of all, Effie is far too self centered to be worrying about the world. She's like, excuse. Yeah. Effie's world is small. She's like, I'm sorry, there's a spotlight right there. I will be in it right now. Please thank, please and thank you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Michael Bennett himself, genius that he was, he was not someone who could create something out of nothing. He was good at taking things that existed and piecing it together.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I think either having somebody who, like you said, you know, has no connection to Dreamgirls or to the original production anyway and can make something out of it is absolutely worth viewing. An Effie, one might say. Someone who's like, look what I can make out of this. I also would argue that there is a world in which you find someone who's a bit more of a Dina and not a Laurel, not someone who's like, I can do the assignment. I can take. Would you give me and more sort of like, see, I can take what already exists and make this work for us. The Dina who watches Ed Sullivan and takes the pieces that she thinks works for him and apply it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You don't want a Laurel who goes round and around. You want a Dean who goes round and around or an Abby or round and around.

[B]

Correct. And I feel like too that, you know, so often they're not, you know, the best productions I've seen. Also, even if they failed or made some missteps, their focus was always the same, which is, if I walk away from a production and remember that this is a story about three women, so much of the work is really done. I mean, there's, I've heard the sentiment that, I mean, taking Lorella, which is also one Lorella, needs more love. But like you know, it's really about two women. The first act is Effie's story, and then the second act is Dina story and how those kind of collide. And I think that there's something very interesting about a director being able to find the balance or find a way to guide the audience. Guide and remind the audience that this is not a competition story. This is a story about three women and how life takes them on their own separate journey through the world that they're living in and the industry that they're in. In every successful production, always, I always walk away being like, dream girls. It's about dream. These three women.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everything else is just.

[A]

And recognizing when they've started to become pawns in someone else's game. Gina realizing when Curtis is using her for his own. You know, the When I first saw you is not a love song. It is. It's. It ends in such a scary place before, you know, relenting from there.

[B]

Don't take my dream from me. That's crazy. That's crazy.

[A]

It's absolutely crazy. And he doesn't say, when I first saw you, I fell in love with you. It's. When I first saw you, I thought, that's.

[B]

That's my dream.

[A]

My dream. And. And you can either say, that's my dream or that's my dream. You know, whichever way you like, emphasize it. One is scary than the other, but neither one is. That's the person I'm going to. I would like to be with. I want to be with. That's. He. Dina's not even really a person to him. She's an ideal. And again, he.

[B]

And also when he first saw her, we're not. I've never taken that. Like, it's very easy to be like, oh, the first time we ever. No, no, no, no. When did he first see her? That could have been two months after he already met her ass.

[A]

Yep. You know, it's not even romantic. Sorry, I. Have you ever seen the Red Shoes, Jason?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Don't have to be so offended. I don't know your life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's on my mind because I had seen it recently at the Paris. I love it. It's one of my absolute favorite movies. And I bring this up because I go see Red Shoes, and I bring my friend Sophia, who hadn't seen in, like, 25 years. And after she was like, it's so weird. I always remember this being, like a love triangle, but it's really not. Like it's about a woman who loves a man and he loves her back. And then another man who loves ballet as much as she loves ballet. And she. The man who loves her is unable to understand why her love for ballet is so passionate. And the man who loves ballet does not understand why she loves another human being as much as she does. And Curtis sort of, like, looks at Dina in this way of. I thought you cared about this as much as I did. What do you mean? You want to be a human being now? Like, right. And. And the. And the inciting is the catalyst for that is in Act 2, we find out a few years later that her mother's died. And.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And she feels like she failed on her promise to be somebody. And Curtis is like, what are you talking about? You're the most famous woman in America. She's like, but what have I.

[B]

Which. Which. Which, from his perspective, I can understand.

[A]

It being like, yeah, like, that's for. To be the most famous woman in America as a black woman.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, that. That is huge. But. And of course, with success is relative. The more success you get, the less impressive what you've done becomes to you. But Dina looks at and she's like, but what have I done? I wear pretty clothes and I sing songs like, I Don't change the world. And she's both right and wrong, and he's right and wrong. But they're not, you know, they're not really able to communicate because they're not really. They're compatible in the. In the ways that I said they were in part one, but they're also not compatible in other ways. Yes. And I. I don't know how we. How I got back to this moment, but just as you're saying, the show being about the girls.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

And thena realizing, you know, I don't want to sing anymore. I want to do other things. And then eventually realizing I don't want Curtis anymore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I think that she. I think that. That, you know, one of. Let's also remind ourselves at this point in time, I'm going to put her, what, 31, 32, 33. Like, she's not, like, we're not talking about. I've never gotten a person feel like any older that Dean is any older than, like, mid-30s.

[A]

She may not be any older than 28 when the show ends.

[B]

Yeah, right. They're still so young.

[A]

They really are.

[B]

They're really, really young. And so it's the first man that she's ever been with. There are so many things that she's realizing, like, we all do that this. Something about this off or it's just time for me to grow and expand.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And because. And because he's young. Too young. Ish. Too. He's having a hard time releasing. You know, it's very, very male. To confuse. I don't think he realizes that he's not looking at her as. As something that belongs to him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I don't think that he's aware of how base that is to be able to receive the end of.

[A]

He. I don't think he thinks literally, you are my property. I think that that's underlying in a lot of the ways that he talks and deals with her.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In his mind, they are a partnership.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it was genuinely thrown when she is having qualms about any of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think it's also telling that at the end of the show, all three original dreams are single. They're not with any man. The only dream who is with a man is Michelle, and people forget about her. I love the movie. I love. I do love them in the movie. It's so awkward. It's such an awkward moment when they do the finale and they bring Effie on and she know. She hugs Dina, she hugs Sorel. And then she and Michelle just do a little hi.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

Little Hi.

[B]

I forgot. Bitch, I forgot about you. I'm the balloonfunct with you. I don't know you.

[A]

I still have your number. Well, she's about to marry her brother.

[B]

So, you know, that's true.

[A]

I mean, their inner monologue, in one night only, you've got Dean of like, I'm going to make this film and this will be my last tour. Laurel's like, I got to think about me. And then Michelle goes, that man wants to marry me. He wants to marry. Which, listen, to be a feminist means that, you know, any choice you make for yourself is a. Is a right one.

[B]

Love. Love.

[A]

That means marriage. Michelle. That means marriage.

[B]

She has her. She has her contract and her man. She's good.

[A]

She's good.

[B]

She's singing. She's. She's happy. Doing oohs and aah. She's. She's singing alto.

[A]

Listen, of a group of three, she is the fourth most famous dream. And. And. And she got her money. She's been on magazine cover. She has her man. Everything is fine. Everything is.

[B]

Her man is present, not on drug. He loves her.

[A]

I do say I do. She does show some personality again in that quartet. In the I Met yout no Harm quartet.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Because. Because when cece saying, like, I'M so miserable with Curtis, I can't be here anymore. She's like, you've been saying that for five years and you're still here. So, like, either do it or don't. And then. And then I also love. I think you even hear it in the soundboard, like an audience member chuckling because she's like, you know what the problem is? It's Effie. And you still think about her and like. And he's like, well, then what do I do? She's like, what do you mean? What do you do? You go and you apologize, idiot. And his response is, well, then, if I do that, will you marry me? She's like, yes, I would love to marry you, but go apologize to your sister. It's so fun. I love it. I love it.

[B]

There's a. There's one of my other friends that loves Dream Girls, always said the best Michelle is the Michelle who's a Laurel cover. The worst, most forgettable Michelle's the Dina covers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because there's kind of like, babe, you didn't get the. You didn't book the job. It's okay. It's okay.

[A]

It's fine.

[B]

It's fine. You're not a princess Strat. Walk onto your thing and be done.

[A]

You come in at the end of act one, you serve cunt. You come back in act two, do oohs and ahs. You can't sustain. What do you want me to do about it?

[B]

That's what everyone's saying.

[A]

A fact is a fact, my love. An apple falls to the ground. Am I not supposed to say, oh, look, a fallen apple?

[B]

And I think that there is something to be said about the specificity casting of Michelle. I do think it's very helpful, storytelling wise. Not, Michelle can't be special, but we can't. I think it's important for us to not develop any very strong feeling for Michelle.

[A]

Michelle's not the point of the show. The fact that she's not caused any problems since she joined, I think is a testament to the fact that she is good people and works well and it's professional. And like Dream Girls, let's. Let's be real. I. I think that the second act of the Dream Girls, it's not that it's bad. It's not as dramatic and compact as Act 1. Like, Act 1 writes a very large check that I don't think all of act two.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Cashes in on. That doesn't mean act two is bad. It's just there are certain things that don't fully feel fleshed out. Now. What they still do in Act 2, that I think is reminiscent of Act 1 is they'll do certain small details that show you where characters are at. So when we first see Effie again in Act 2, showing up for the audition for the. I'm changing, she's late again, and she's still showing diva behavior. I can't stand with a pianist I don't know. And finally she commits because Marty's like, it's now or never. She goes, fine, I'll do now. She books the gig, and then the next time we see her, she's waiting in the studio for Marty, and we find out she's been waiting there for a while.

[B]

A while.

[A]

Marty is late. Effie probably actually got there early. She's. She's. She's being punctual, she's being professional. And when CeCe shows up, she doesn't cause a scene so much as she just, like, has a very.

[B]

Conversation.

[A]

Hurt conversation. And they make up, and she records and shows up with Curtis with receipts and a lawyer. Like, she has grown up a lot. And when she and Dina have, I think it speaks volumes when she says, you know, I'm gonna speak to the great Ms. Jones now in the real version of Dreamgirls, not the current version we have now where they throw in Listen, but the written, which I will.

[B]

Which I will say I. I will never be a Listen fan. I will never be a Listen fan. This does sound contradictory to what I've said before, but given if we're going with the, like, there are two women's stories going here. If we're going to do Listen, that's where it goes, and I like it. And it's okay. If it's a duet, it's okay. There is something about that. That and work lyrically, there's been a lot of shuffling and driving around with the lyrics that they need to figure out.

[A]

I don't dislike the idea of it. I've yet to see it. I've yet to see it work better than the original interaction. And it's three times as long as the original interaction.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And at that point of the show, you're like, let's wrap it up.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And I think. I just think it's more personal where, you know, everybody laughs because they think, oh, we're about to have a diva showdown. And that's not what it is. It's two very close friends who haven't seen each other in five years. There's been a lot of pain and A lot of regret, but a lot of it is water under the bridge. And, you know, Dina says earnestly, I didn't know all the things that Curtis was doing. And I so many times I wanted to reach out and see you. And Effie says, I did see you. I went to your mom's funeral and I was going to come over.

[B]

That always breaks my heart. That, that wears me out. That wears me out every time.

[A]

And, and, and when they start, when they start counterpointing is that there were so many people. There were so many people in the way. It's like there's been so much in the way, and yet now here we are. And that you have a baby. She's.

[B]

She's seven again, not even 30. Not even 30.

[A]

Not even 30.

[B]

You know, it's. I will say the thing about the Listen thing is because also this is when we're getting into the generation, the era of, like, people are trying to go for their egots. So this is the one way to do it is write an original song or a score, things like that. Because did you do, you know, the whole thing with Joel Schumacher and wanting to do Dream girls in the 90s with Whitney Houston?

[A]

Yep. And then they ended up cutting it because Whitney was going to be Dina, but she wanted to sing. And I am telling you. And they couldn't make it work.

[B]

Correct, Correct. Correct.

[A]

I told you, I'm a fan.

[B]

Correct, Correct. But I think one of the ways that I find that people try to kick up the Knox, the second act is by showing Dina's vocal journey.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Which makes sense to me. If we're going to focus on Dina, that's when we start, like, upping it a little bit. But again, they end up doing too much. Like, for example, with Listen, I always feel like one of the reasons why it never works is because I just walk away being like, again, this just felt like a way for someone to just remind us or let us know that the actress wanted to show that she could sing to him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I do think the second act is a great opportunity to start showing not just vocally, but star quality wise, how Curtis was right about Dina.

[A]

Yeah. Curtis being right about Dina doesn't necessarily mean he was wrong about Effie. And I think that's sort of where Effie's journey has to be. Curtis is right about where Effie was at in that moment of their careers and where Effie was at in her life. Right. The thing which I don't know what, what I'm talking about right now, but I just wanted to kind of roll off of what you were saying, because Effy's journey. How would we describe Effie's journey in Act 2? Because she only has three scenes. When you think about it, I would.

[B]

Describe Effy's journey as. I would describe Effy's journey as confusing, and I would describe Effy's journey as supplemental.

[A]

Right. Well, because as you said, act two is about Dina and act one is more about Effie. But act two is where so much change and growth happens for characters. So for. So for it to be Dina focused, it doesn't mean that nothing's happening with Effie. It just means that so much has to be filled in by an actress in between scenes. It's why Lillias is such a wonderful Effie, because Lillius is wonderful actress. The movie happens, and the movie is, as we said, like, it's. It's successful. It. It grosses over $100 million, which is nothing to sneeze at. But the movie was kind of expensive, and I definitely thought. I think they thought it was going to do better than that. Like, it was very much promoted as this big, big event. And it was liked. It was very well liked, but it didn't get a best Picture nomination. And Jennifer wins. They don't win original song. They had three original songs up and none of them won, which, honestly, that has actually happened way more often than people realize. With Enchanted, if you give people too many options, they're not going to pick one.

[B]

They just threw Pop up against the wall and was just like, let's see if the numbers came and they lost.

[A]

Yeah. What. So what are things about the movie that you do like? And then what is something about the movie that you have a note on?

[B]

The things that I love about the movie. I love the esthetic of the movie. I love the saturation of the movie. I love how the movie looks. Do you think it's Beyonce's best performance today?

[A]

More so than Gold Member.

[B]

That's actually a second. I prefer. I prefer Gold Member over fucking what's the Cadillac records or whatever the fuck that was.

[A]

I've not seen Cadillac records yet. Those same movie podcasters. Jason, who will tell you that Chicago is just okay, will tell you that Beyonce's fantastic in Cadillac records. And so part of me's gone. Maybe I should watch it because I don't love her in Dream Girls. I don't think she's.

[B]

I think. I think. I think she. I think she tries really hard. I think that she's so great in Dream Girls because she had so much to pull from. There was such a big parallel to her life. I think it was. I think it was a fantastic role for her to really step out and do the best that she can.

[A]

Yeah. No, I don't. I don't think she's bad. I. I do still think that Anika is the best of the three of them.

[B]

What are your thoughts? Sure.

[A]

And what are your thoughts of Ms. Jennifer's performance?

[B]

I think the reason why she. Here's the thing that I always say about her winning the Oscar. Well, first of all, when I think about Jennifer's performance is that it is a performance that I feel like is usually on par with a lot of Effies that I see. I can't expect both forms of storytelling from Effie. You have to make a choice depending on the vocalist that you have. It's just the way that the score is. For anyone who says that she can't act, I would say to them, well, if she was acting, you'd be complaining about her vocal choices because. Find me. Someone sings like Jennifer Holiday but is going to be acting like Audrey McDonald. Find them. You got. It's just the way that the role. It's almost a trap.

[A]

How was your Jennifer Holiday impression, by the way, from part one? Find her, find her. I've got. I've got the. I've got the throat.

[B]

Find her, Find her, Find him. So with her winning the Oscar, I always say this. At the end of the day, there's different formulas or ways or packages that one could win an Oscar that year. There just wasn't a performance like that. I mean, you had a number. You had incredible people acting their faces off, but you did not have a performance like that. And part of it is built into that song and that moment that literally smashes a brick wall down. It's just the nature of the beat. It's an electrifying moment, whether it be on stage or on screen. And sometimes that gets you an Oscar. There was not a performance like that that year musically. But here's the thing that was a case of the majority of women in that category that year could have done everyone else's performance except for Jennifer. Jennifer was the only one who could have done what she did. And quite frankly, we hadn't seen a performance like that in years.

[A]

Yeah, we had. We haven't had a ton of musical performances in films that deliver the musicalness that we.

[B]

The musicalness. Yeah. And the emotion where it's. Where it's. Where everything kind of makes sense. Sense for what it is, where you can look at that and be like, ow.

[A]

Yeah. And I think the problem with Oscars is because it's film and because they continue onwards on, like, stage, where you're off with memory. And theater work is so infrequent. Someone can win a Tony and maybe not have, like, an illustrious theater career afterwards. And there can be multitudes of reasons, but when someone wins an Oscar and maybe their film career is not as illustrious as the winning of the Oscar would expect, a lot of people like, to point fingers as to, like, well, did we need to do that? And I'm like, well, you can't look at what came after. You have to look at the performance that is in the time it came out and why that happened. Why that one?

[B]

Yes. Also too. It kind of goes back to what I was saying, that, like, I've never looked at CC as a role that's nominated for a thing. Some roles are just gonna win awards. Anthony's gonna win you an award. As we found out a few years ago. Anita's gonna get your ass an Oscar. Because it's just a role that it just. It's. Some roles are just attached to a certain type of thing. If you play Fe, whether it could be for the Jeff or the Helen Hayes, you won't be nominated for that regional theater award.

[A]

There are certain roles attached to songs.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I will not be naming names. Jason on mic.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You and I will get a drink sometime after this, and I will do so. But roles and songs where all the performer had to do was ride the train and they would find success. They did not steer. They did not steer the train. They did not build the railroad. They were. They. They sat in that passenger seat and they did not make a fuss. And they got. They got their recognition.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Now, there is merit to that because I have seen people where all they had to do was sit in that seat and they shat in the seat. And I'm like, you had one job. So there's. So there's stuff. But this is not. And it's not an Effie thing so much as. Like, there are just. Sometimes there are those roles. Yeah, yeah. And I always get a little frustrated when somebody will get hailed for something where I'm like, I. I'm telling you, in three years, we're going to look back and go, did we have to do that? And we never say that about Jennifer Holiday. We haven't really said about Jennifer. There was a time post Dream Girls where people were saying that about Jennifer Hudson. Just because of Secret Life of Bees and the Sex and the City movie. But I would ask you, Jason, who came out of the Sex and the City movie where everyone said your acting career makes sense? To me. No one. Not a single person. In the Sex and the City movie?

[B]

No, no.

[A]

At this. At this. It's now gone to the point where if you're on and just like that, the fewer lines you have, the better off, the better.

[B]

The better off you are with you.

[A]

How do you mean?

[B]

You're the top.

[A]

Yeah. You're an arrow color.

[B]

You're the top.

[A]

You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet.

[B]

I mean, this. This is. This is the thing, too, I think, like, whenever the conversation happens. We broke up. Like, I can't believe she has an Oscar. I'm kind of like, well, what else do you have to like? I just. I don't understand it. She got the Oscar. We're here. It's Effie Melody fucking White. It's Effie Melody fucking White. It's just that role. You're just going to. If you. I guarantee you, whether she was great or not, if someone. Chances are. If someone comes into a revival of Evita, chances are there's gonna be an assumption.

[A]

Yep. Oh, yeah.

[B]

An assumption of a nomination. An assumption.

[A]

Yes. Because there was that last revival. I wanna wait, I wanna tell the story, then I wanna go into the national tour.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You were in town when that revival happened? Yes. Of Evita. Okay. So when the show had closed, they had their poster still up, but it was, you know, it was that thing that Broadway shows do where, like, they put up the main poster and then when reviews come out or when awards happen, they, like, slather on new things on top of the poster. They don't, like, necessarily print a new poster. And so for Evita, it had closed and they had the headshots of Elena, Roger, Michael Cerverus and Ricky Martin still out at the theater. And they had, like, their quotes and their Tony stuff up there, but someone had taken off Elena Rogers's quote page, I'm assuming to, like, you know, take home for their own safekeeping. So I have a photo of it somewhere in my. In my Rolodex, but in the photo. So the photo reads, know these three headshots. And you see Michael servers is electrifying. Ricky Martin is sensational. Elena, Roger. And it's like. It's so fucking unfortunate. But it also just. I was like, that's. This is too good not to capture.

[B]

They did her so wrong. They did her.

[A]

That revival was just. Meh. I'm looking forward to the Ariana Grande Evita that Rachel Zegler is supposedly doing over in London. It's coming here.

[B]

I'm sure it is.

[A]

I've. I've heard stories of two theaters that they are considering, but one of them is a theater that is technically occupied and they have to wait till that.

[B]

Show or they can kick that show.

[A]

Well, kicked out is harsh. It's not quite an Effie situation. It's not quite that it would be Effie if Effie was like, I'm probably going to leave in six months. Curtis being like, can you make it three?

[B]

Three.

[A]

Can you make it three? We have Michelle, last name unknown, backstage. Can we. We pick it up. She's in the costume, she knows her harmonies and she don't take no lip from some of the secondary diva.

[B]

Yeah, correct.

[A]

So the national tour. This is sort of a response from the movie which definitely brings cultural attention back to Dreamgirls. Rightfully so. I see the national Tour Directed by Mr. Robert Longbottom, Best known for me as the director choreographer of Sideshow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The revised Flower Drum song, which is fine.

[B]

Yeah. It's the only production I've ever seen.

[A]

So, like, it's not bad. It's not bad at all. It got a lot of flack at the time because the whole idea was like, we're fixing it. And no revival that ever has ever gone with the attitude of we're fixing it has ever done well. But it's. It's fine. The bad one was his Bye Bye Birdie, which was just. But so I go see it. And so many things were. This was a case where, as we were talking artists of the generation that grew up idolizing Michael Bennett and seeing Dreamgirls originally and seeing Hell Princess of Eda originally and now getting to be director choreographers themselves. Moments from that original staging that he recreated without fully comprehending why those moments were. Those moments. The one that I think of all the time is an I am changing. Effie is singing, you know, the whole song and then she gets to the modulation. I am changing. And the Effie does a costume change.

[B]

In front of us in the spotlight. Yeah.

[A]

Well, yes. Normally, Robert Longbottom had her in the middle of an open stage.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Flipped open her cape to have a costume change while, like, the galaxy was projected behind.

[B]

Yes, yes. It was totally the galaxy. It looked like a Trapper Keeper.

[A]

It looked exactly like a Trapper Keeper that you get from fucking cvs.

[B]

Yeah, it Looked like a Trapper Keeper. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God. It was. Who's that woman with the. With, like, the monkey designs? Lisa Frank. Yeah, it's like a Lisa Frank thing. But so I went, Robert Longbottom. I know that there was a costume change in the original, but do you know why there was a costume change? Because that's, as you said, Jason. Like, that spotlight zoomed in on Effie, and then when the spotlight came out, she was in a new outfit, singing in front of a crowd. So we saw that she got the job. The movie did this. The movie did their own version of this. So that revival is like, we're doing all these iconic moments, but not understanding narratively why they're there. And it really fucking bugs me. The one thing that kept me together was. Say it with me now. Ms. Adrienne Warren.

[B]

Yes. Yes, yes. It was. It was. She was so good.

[A]

Well. Cause she. She. I mean, her Laurel was actually, like, kind of a little pissed off all the time, which I really appreciated because I felt there wasn't a lot of personality on stage for the most part.

[B]

But.

[A]

But she was just a little bundle of sass and fire all the time. And, as you said, sang like Jimmy was saying. And so musically, they, like, made compatible sense.

[B]

And I didn't know, because I remember. I remember. I don't know why I didn't know this, because I was using. Had my finger on the pulse all that time. When I went, all I knew that was that Voya was playing Effie Voya from before. I didn't know who the other girls were playing. So when I saw Adrian, I at first thought she was Dina because of the way that she was hitting the step in the. Because I was just like, she ain't hitting the step like no Laurel. She's letting us have it. She's letting us know that she's the girl. And then she would open her mouth and she was. There was some vinegar underneath her Laurel before. It almost looked like she had been hurt before.

[A]

Yeah. What I've come to see when I watch Adrien on stage is she is such a warrior of a performer, which is. And I. I could. I would understand if maybe she came. She went in on audition for Dina because they saw that star quality in her. And, like, there is, as you said, a little too much vinegar in her to fully be Dina. So she kind of.

[B]

Or a first act Dina.

[A]

Exactly, a first act Dina. And so she kind of makes more sense as a Laurel. I don't like it when people cast bland women as Dina. Because, like, well, she's not supposed to be.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Yeah. It's. She has to be a star at the end, so you find someone who can do that and then work their way back from there. And there was. There was. There was just a lot of, you know, campy fan indulgences in that production. That really bugged me. And it bugs me watching it and then bugs me going back to school the next day and telling my professor about it, and him just, like, dismissively going, well, yeah, that's what Dreamgirls is. I was like, it's not. And I don't. I. I hope that people listen to these episodes with us, Jason, and are very correct opinions and kind of get back to this, because, yes, there is the fabulosity of the costumes. Like, the original Theonic Violetri costumes are.

[B]

Actually. It's so funny because I was looking back, looking at some of the clips that you sent me just to refresh my memory, and from a 2025 lens, you could be like, I don't really see anything. They're so simp. They feel so simple and. And compared to what they. What someone would try to do now and just go even more glamorous, but, like, they. They feel closer to the time period. They look well made. They actually look like costumes that you should not be doing a musical.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They look like actual garments. There's something so perfect about the esthetic and the costume design of. Of that original.

[A]

And also just knowing not every costume has to bowl you over. Moments where a costume can pop in. Moments when they don't like the costumes that they wear for heavy. Don't need to stop the show. But the very fact that in the original production, they go from the studio to a stage with nothing but a Mylar curtain.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then melt into a new outfit. It's just. They go. They go from a green dress to a white dress in three seconds, and the audience loses it. That's all it has to be. It doesn't have to be a. A gown to, you know, I don't know, a pantsuit or anything like that.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

And. And I love the costumes that they wear for the Vogue photo shoot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's. First of all, it's high fashion. It's also, like, kind of Italian.

[B]

They do a good job with that in the movie, too. With being very Italian. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Yes. Because it is the 60s and Fellini is everywhere and. And heavy eyeliner via Cleopatra is in. But it's the. It's the kind of. The Reveal. Upon the reveal of these. These black cloaks that then reveal, you know, a colorful top and a giant black, plush, draped skirt. And then they take off the skirt to reveal evening attire. Then they take off the hat. Like, it's. It's this, like, Russian egg doll. That's not nesting egg doll. Yeah, yeah, they're called. And I think it's just. It's cleverness and simplicity. And as you said, I think people go. Want to go for boldness all the time, always. And sparkles all the time, always. And you have to just keep asking, like, what is the era? What is the aesthetic? What does the story need? What is it saying about the characters? And, I mean, I think even Theoni Velotris said that the men's costume. She said the men actually had more costume changes than the women, because as the dreams got. As the dreams got more successful, the men's suits got nicer. So you would see Curtis in what looked like a similar suit from the scene before, but it was a slightly nicer fabric, and that told its own story. And I think part of what kind of holds people back from doing Dreamgirls now is it's a large show, and people are burdened by the expense of that. There is the legacy of the original staging, because each time we do it, whether it's the national tour or London, there's all these rumors of. Or as you say, threats. I'm gonna start calling them threats now.

[B]

I like, they're threats.

[A]

They're threats.

[B]

They're threats.

[A]

They're threats. That's how I feel. Every time they're saying, we're making this movie a musical, I'm like, is that a promise or a threat?

[B]

They're threats. It's a threat.

[A]

But the threat of, oh, it's going to come to Broadway, and each time it doesn't. It's not that the show isn't good or anything like that, or that there's an audience for it. There's clearly an audience for it. But there's always something about the people working on it where it doesn't click in as well as it should. And I think. And there is a preciousness people have about a show like Dreamgirls, because this is a community that does love it and they hold it in high regard and holds the original in high regard. It's like, if we're going to bring it back, we want to bring it back correctly. We don't want to bring it back and be different for the sake of being different. And it seems that just no One's really gotten their finger on the pulse of that quite yet.

[B]

They think going back to, like, you know, what happens with one of these major threats, it's someone who could. If someone, you know, black was directing it. The other thing that I. We have to remind ourselves is too, is that there is a strong chance that the things that people try to fix fit in Dream Girls are never going to be fixed because we always have to go to who wrote it. Right. It was not written by someone who was black. If it was written by someone who's black, there might be some things that. That might not be issue in terms of the nuance of things. I think when we try to revive things, we have to also incorporate the wholeness of it. Not just the time period of when it was, but who the fuck wrote it. And at the end of the day, whether it be Tom, whether it be Michael's vision, whatever, this is still it is. It is the best and most quality example of oh, oh, gay white fantasia of a certain time period. Right. It is their love letter to the big black woman that's inside of us. That's what the show is when we really, really break it down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What it is, is. Is. Is their homage to this outdated idea that they have an African American goddess inside of them and their love for all of those women that remind them of that, that made them feel like they were beautiful and strong. And that's where some of the ownership and possessiveness comes over the peace in general. And I think the thing about Dreamgirls is that I don't know if the person to come along and really expound upon the original vision or take it to the next level is either honestly born yet or someone who is not to the place where they're even in the professional world. I do think it's someone who has to really not care that much about the piece or care that much about how much people care about the piece.

[A]

Right. Less about its legacy and its reputation and more just a genuine love for the material.

[B]

The genuine love for the material. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I do. I have said this before, anyone directing a show. Well, for this way, because sometimes a job is a job, but if we're reviving something on Broadway, if you are reviving it, it's better be because you love it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Directing it, it better be because you love it. We have had revivals from directors where it is so clear the director hates the show. And yes, apologizing for it or trying to fix it or trying to let you know that they think Better than the show does. Cough, cough. 1776. Cough, cough.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And. And pisses me the off. Because it never works. It never.

[B]

No.

[A]

The best revivals have been when directors are like, I want the world to see what I see in this because I think there is magic here. And when they do, it happens.

[B]

And that ma. And the thing is, when I. Yes. And I actually don't really care how you got the love of that piece. If you. If you're a director and your love of that piece is the introduction from the movie. Great.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't really care. But I. But I think with a piece so high up like this, there is a fear or a pressure that one can feel to make sure that the OG fans are also status. I think that that's a big mistake that we can make because not for nothing, a lot of the OG fans of the show aren't here anymore.

[A]

Yeah, that's true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I say if you're a fan of the show. Yeah. I don't care how you got here, you're here. Welcome, welcome. But if. But you are doing the show. You are not doing the movie.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And the show is what it is. I would also. I think we should. We should rephrase this. The show is not written by white people. It's curated by white people.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It was. It was written by black actors and was curated by a white production team.

[B]

Written by black actors. In the context of the fact that they were. They were not the ones running the table.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

They were not the ones running the table. Dream girls would not. Well, dream girls would not happen today in the same way. Only because we are. Well, we are way more aware of being able to be like, no, no, no, no. Where's my jet?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Before I contribute anything out, where's my. You know, But I mean, that was the process at the time. And also, too, the thing about it is we don't know what they could like, because it's one thing to, like, make a little joke on the side. And then they say, let's put that in. We're not fully aware of every conversation that these black actors had with these white men. We don't know what pin to fisticuffs, how many times they could have been like, that's actually not accurate. And they said, well, we're doing this anyway. We don't know how. We don't actually know the scope of how much they contributed to that space.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At the end of the day, you know, because they weren't. You know, I mean, again, Michael Bennett slapped sterile. It's not funny, but, like, we weren't dealing with the safe space.

[A]

We. We sure weren't. Michael Bennett has a trail of rainbow carnage, of which is my line from Hedwig. Of all the women that he'd done wrong in his life, it's crazy to say nothing of the men, but, like, for a man who was very much gay, it's surprising how many women he hurts.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Emotionally and romantically. Jennifer Holiday, too. We won't go into it, but, like.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Yes. That young woman, which is probably why she fought back so goddamn money. Because the only way. The only way that she could figure out how to maintain control was to. Yeah, do it. Do it on the stage.

[A]

This is the only territory that I have. I gotta. I gotta.

[B]

You know, I get that.

[A]

The most of it. Absolutely.

[B]

I get that. I get that.

[A]

Why. So then, okay, considering that it is a show that, you know, was in a very specific time period, in a very messy process that we talk about in various ways of how accurate is. How successful it is, how good it is, what. Why do we ultimately think that Dream Girls continues? Why? Why people still gravitate towards it?

[B]

I think that people still gravitate towards it because one, the music evokes something from a time gone by, or it introduces you to something. It's exciting musical theater, fun to listen to. It's fun to perform. It's fun to aspire to perform. People gravitate towards it because everyone loves a behind the music situation. We love a behind the curtain. Everyone loves a rise and a fall story. Everybody loves watching a family situation. And it is, you know, it is a family. I think that that's the genpact reason. And I think, like, the black community responds to it because it feels accurate. It sounds accurate. They recognize those sounds. They recognize those voices. It's a great entryway into musical theater. You're looking around and seeing. And you think musical theater is just singing in the rain. You see this, you kind of like, now I can get into that. I think it's got variety in terms of being an actor. There are different types of women that can be in it. There's lots of opportunity to be in the show and have something to do and it be worth your time. It's a juggernaut. So just the idea of maybe trying to climb that mountain is appealing to artists. And I think that it keeps coming back because I think people want to either crack the code, which, frankly, there's no such thing as recreating that kind of Whitening in a bottle.

[A]

You know, we. To bring back to Bennett. We saw in the 06. Yeah. The 2006 revival of a Chorus Line where they literally recreated every single Microsoft.

[B]

They always do.

[A]

Yeah. And everyone going, huh. Why is this not as exciting? Because it's not the original company. Because it wasn't organic. It was replicated.

[B]

It was replicated. Knocko 2 again. We were talking about this vocally kind of with Dream Girls, but like, I know I do. They think, you know, once we got into the conservatory era of musical theater training, I don't know if you can have A Chorus Line done. Exported. Well, because we're not. None of us are moving to New York with. With some talent. A bus ticket and a fucking drain. Mm. Mm.

[A]

You know, the best case scenario, you're coming to New York to be at the Jimmy Awards in a dream. Like that's. That's our equivalent now of a bus ticket.

[B]

Half. Half these people kind of like ensemble. No, darling. And they're straight outta school. Like they're not. What. What. What. What they did for love. They're not doing it for love, honey. They're doing it these like, clicks. So. So it's not going to really work. So I think, and I think that there's something with Dream Girls too, where it's such a vocally pyrotechnic show on paper that now, with the way people sing now impressed with. Whether you're impressed by it or not, it actually is nothing special about it. When I go and see if it's just a showcase for vocal talent, it actually kind of highlights that we've lost the plot. And I think that when you see more productions like that, then people can. Like, something's missing. Something's missing. Something's missing.

[A]

Yeah. No, I agree. I think people forget with Dreamgirls, it's not just the spectacle, it's not just the pyrotechnics. It's a story and it's human. The fact that it has the spectacular elements to it only emboldens what makes it special. It's not the only thing about it.

[B]

Correct, correct.

[A]

Correct. It's one of the few shows I can think of about an othered group, whether that is of race, gender, sexuality, what have you, where the otherness is both the central theme and not the purpose of the show at the same time. Does that make sense? Where it's like the characters are who they are and where they're at because of their otherness, but that is not what makes their journey theatrical or like. Or Worth watching. Because then it becomes like a fetishization for an audience to go look at the good I'm doing for, you know, giving my time to these people.

[B]

Yes. Well, part of that is too, is that I. And I found this over the course of me just being in theater. One of the things. One of the distinctions of Dreamgirls is that with the exception of David and the Sweetheart, I mean, crazy thing is too, there were black people living in the 50s and 60s. They don't need to talk about being black in America. They know they get it. They're experiencing every day. And we see whiteness be a thing that can come in and part of the system. But there's something interesting about the fact that, like, there is never a big, bad white villain that actually gets staged.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes. The Davis and I think that that one. It forces actually white audiences to lean in even more and to follow these people. Because a lot of times when things are actually dealing with race, the white characters still get lots of stage, which gives white audiences an avenue to feel more comfortable watching the story. The less people. White people are on stage, the more people thought they're either not allowed to watch. There's something about Greenbrook. The fact that there is not a presence of them on stage for the most part, allows them to really lean in and just look at these. These people as people. Because all the information about the climate of the world at the time is not necessary. But it is there. It is mentioned. It's just not the point.

[A]

Yeah. It's the undercurrent. It's not. It's not the theme. Yeah. It's the. And then we'll wrap things up. But it's what I love about the show. And I'm having this realization now. As I talked about this with my review of Suffs last season. Not last season, but two seasons ago. My thing with Suffs that I wanted was I wish that the show was a little bit more of a Jen Colella and Nikki M. James and Jayna Taub sort of all wanting the same thing and fighting about how to get it. And then I realized that's actually Dream Girls of everyone wants the same thing. And they're all just fighting about, like, what's the way to get it. So, you know, when, like, Dave and the Sweethearts come in and steal their song right before Step into the bad side, you have, you know, Marty and Cece and Jimmy and Curtis all sort of fighting about what they could have done to protect the song and what they can do going forward. And they all want recognition. They all want success and equality, but they have different thoughts of how to do it.

[B]

The thing that I love about Curtis is, too, is that, like, sometimes I don't like, I think that Curtis can have too much polish. Right? Like, I love that Curtis understands that you have to present a certain way. I think he walked in already knowing, oh, y' all are doing it wrong to begin with. Y' all have been doing it. I think he sees. He's just like, y'.

[A]

All.

[B]

He walks in already knowing and experiencing the big bad guy out there. And he's like, y', all, Y'. All. Y' all are playing socks. This. This is why we got here in the first place.

[A]

You and I have very similar thoughts on this show. And again, it makes me feel very seen. My island has now gotten a little bit larger. Jason. Ooh, my earbud just went out. Um, okay, so with that in mind, I think that's the perfect cue for us to wrap things up. Jason, this has been delightful, sir.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

Thank you for coming on for part one and part two. Once again, where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[B]

On all platforms at DC Bill. V E A S E Y B I L L E. Perfect.

[A]

If you want to find me, I'm on Instagram at Matt Coppock. Usual spelling. You can join. The Discord Channel link will be in the episode description as well as the substack for Broadway Breakdown. That'll do for this episode of Broadway Breakdown. Stay tuned next week for Hedwig, Emmy, Angry Inch with Friend of the Pod, Preston Max Allen. Oh, my God. Hey, guys, it's Matt from the future. Just wanted to pop in for a quick second to let you know that there is an update to the release schedule. Jason and I recorded this two parter dream way back in the past, way back in August, before there had even been an announcement, by the way, that there was going to be a revival of Dreamgirls on Broadway in 2026, or at least plans to have a revival. So if you're wondering why we never addressed that, that's because we recorded this like a month and a half before the announcement was made. So there you go. But main point, next week's episode will not be Hedwig and the Angry Inch. It will be who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf With Kevin Zak. Just a couple of scheduling coordinations with all the episodes that got changed. And because we recorded this so far back in the past, I was so cocky and confident and I thought I just knew that life wouldn't find a way to mess things up. And it did. So that's it. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Next week with Kevin Zach. Back to the episode once again. I'm your host, Matt Koplik. And that is it for this one. Oh, yes. Jsn.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We need another diva to close us out with.

[B]

Cheryl Freeman, hit me with the hot note. Play on.

[A]

Cheryl Freeman, hit me with a hot note from. Play on. Okay. She's the Acid Queen. And Tommy as well, right? Yes. One of the muses and.

[B]

Yeah, one of the muses. There we go. You got it.

[A]

No, my muses. Yes. Thank you very much. Alrighty. And that's all. Thanks for stopping by, friends. We will see you soon enough. Take it away, Cheryl.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

Hit me with a hot note and watch me burn Slap me down with rhythm from stem to stern when sexes flare up I will get up Keep my hair up Hit my and watch me bounce T.