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- [00:10]
A
Don't you know me? I'm a new burning world, baby trying tear me down I was born on the other side But I'm town rich in two I made it over the great delight Now I'm coming for you.
- [00:36]
B
Hello, all you theater lovers, both out and crowd and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Matt's Picks, and it is covering shows that you submitted that I did not pick out of a bowl for grab bag, but wanted to cover anyway. I am indeed your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is Friend of the Pod. You haven't heard his voice on Here for a Spin, but that's because he's been busy. Playwright, composer, lyricist, opinionated person themselves. You might know him best for We Are the Tigers. I am personally a fan of Carrie 2 and unauthorized musical parody. When you can see his latest work, Caroline, this fall at MCC with David Cromer. Please welcome back Preston Max Allen. Hi, Preston.
- [01:21]
A
Hello, Matt. What a joy and a pleasure and a gift to be back.
- [01:25]
B
What a gift to have you back. You were quite a mouthful back there just now.
- [01:30]
A
I have a lot of compliments. They're ready to go.
- [01:32]
B
First of all, welcome back. It's been a minute. It's been. We were talking about this off mic, but it's been three years since Preston was last on.
- [01:39]
A
Yeah, that's true.
- [01:41]
B
The li. The listeners, the longtime listeners of this podcast probably best know you as the person who broke their minds in realizing that there is a flaw to the libretto of Gypsy and they've never let go of it at all.
- [01:54]
A
What. What did I say was the flaw to Gypsy?
- [01:56]
B
You forgot we talk about it all the time on the podcast. Now you in the episode. Because it was a very positive episode. On Gypsy, we talked about what works about it, all the ways to go about it. Yeah, exactly. What's not to love? But you said. You said I have a thing that I think keeps it from being perfect, which is that there is no indication at all throughout Act 1 or Act 2 into the Strip that would give any foreshadowing or any inclination that Louise has a Gypsy Rosalie inside of her, like you said. Oh, yes, you said she never says anything that's remotely funny or observant or shows intelligence. Her arc kind of goes, I'm a wallflower. I have a little bit more of a backbone to my mother. And then I Do the strip and I become Gypsy Rose Lee. And when I tell you that the listeners talk about it to this day. I talk about it to this day. And that's why Preston Max Allen has a play at MCC coming up, everybody.
- [02:48]
A
Wow, that's so fascinating. I guess I still hold true to that. But I would also amend that. I think, like, it depends on the Rose to Louise relationship experience ratio. Cause I didn't question it as much when I saw Audra. Cause Audra is just running that show and Louise is like, hands up kind of. But I still hold that. It is. It does ring true when I think about.
- [03:12]
B
Yeah. Cause you were talking about sort of the difficulty of the strip with Gypsy and how it's so difficult for an actress to sell that arc. Well, and it's because what you correctly identified was until that moment, there's no Runway for the actress to go with that leads them to this moment. It's sort of all on those eight minutes. And it's not impossible. It's just very, very, very hard. And yeah, that's.
- [03:34]
A
Yeah, we could get. We'll. We'll get really into that again later, now that I've seen this one, because I actually do have. Yeah, yeah, we can do a whole other three hour Gypsy podcast.
- [03:41]
B
Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I can't wait. But instead of that, why don't we talk about another chrysalis of a character on stage, shall we? What are we talking about today, Prestone?
- [03:51]
A
We are talking about Hedwig and the Angry Inch, which I'm holding up my T shirt of Hedwig and the Angry Inch because I love.
- [03:58]
B
From the Belasco Theater.
- [04:00]
A
It is a beloved. Beloved. You can't spell Velasco without several letters of beloved. Is how I feel about Hedwig and the Anchorage.
- [04:09]
B
Was that your introduction to Hedwig? Was that revival?
- [04:13]
A
It was, yeah. And I saw it eight times.
- [04:15]
B
Did you see every single Hedwig?
- [04:18]
A
I missed Darren. Darren was the one that I missed.
- [04:21]
B
The one that got away.
- [04:23]
A
The one that got away.
- [04:25]
B
You paraphrase John Cameron Mitchell's Hedvig Darren. All the perks of homosexuality and none of the. What does he say? None of, like, the punishments or something like that. Something like that, yeah. Yeah. He was talking about James Franco. He's like, oh, James, all the benefits of homosexuality with none of the drawbacks.
- [04:45]
A
That's true. Except for now, Dave has eclipsed James.
- [04:49]
B
And for that we say there is a Santa Claus. So, Preston, this is to say, your introduction to Hedvig und the Angry Inch was in the 2014 revival at the Belasco Theater. You saw with Neil Patrick Harris first, then I assume.
- [05:04]
A
Yes, I saw him three times in it.
- [05:06]
B
Oh, and then you saw Michael C. Hall. No, Andrew. Andrew Reynolds.
- [05:11]
A
I saw Andrew Reynolds once and then Michael C. Hall twice, and then John once. And he had his. Or they had their. I think he uses he him, but he is non binary. But uses he him. Yes. Had the leg injury at that point.
- [05:23]
B
It also is very John Kevin Mitchell to be like, I'm non binary. I will keep using male pronouns because he just. He's like, fuck you all. I'm gonna keep going down my own path.
- [05:32]
A
I think that was very much the wash of the interview I had read when trying to figure out what pronouns to use. But I had seen leg injury, jcm, which A wild ride. And then I saw Tay. I think Tay closed it out for me.
- [05:46]
B
You survived Tay is what you mean.
- [05:49]
A
I made it through, Tay.
- [05:50]
B
You made it through.
- [05:52]
A
Listen, I don't think it was Tay's fault. Tay did his best.
- [05:56]
B
You sound like Maria Callas in Masterclass. He did his best. What was he supposed to do, stoop through the role? I didn't get to see Tay, so I can't actually speak on it. I just remember the word at the time of when he had done the show and it wasn't positive on the lines. Is what. How I would describe it.
- [06:13]
A
Yeah, it's one of those things where it's like, we don't cast ourselves typically in shows, so we're not gonna. No, it's fine.
- [06:19]
B
But.
- [06:20]
A
But.
- [06:20]
B
So were you aware of Hedwig as a property before that revival, or was it like, brand spanking new to you?
- [06:26]
A
You know, I think it felt like a world that I hadn't accessed yet. Like, I knew it was out there and I was a huge musical theater person, and I was very specifically, like a huge, like, Spring Awakening person. America idiot person. So, like, Michael Mayer was definitely in the conversation with me already. I was prepped. But I had, for some reason, like, I had, for some reason missed, I think, everything about it. I hadn't seen the movie. I saw the movie, I think, yeah, with my friend. Like, after I saw the show a couple times. I don't know. I don't know how I missed it. I hadn't transitioned yet, so I don't know if I just wasn't Googling, you know, gender, Gender. Musicals. Musicals with gender. But it was obviously a very eye opening experience because I went back seven more times.
- [07:12]
B
That was also the era of your life and your career where you were very heavily focused on high belting bitches. And there's really not a lot of that in Hedwig.
- [07:19]
A
Oh, but there, there is, though. There's. There's high belting. Well, there's high belting Lena hall, which really did so much for me, and then Rebecca, who did a lot for me. It was very. A wonderful experience for me in that vein. But not the centerpiece when they added.
- [07:33]
B
The Hurt Locker ballad for Lena, when, yes, the roof was included in the vocal range for Hedwig at that point, because Miriam Shore, amazing gitzak that she is, she will herself say like, that she's never been, like, highfalutin vocalist. She's an actress who sings. And so when you watch. Oh, does she growl ever? I will get into how I got into Hedvig. How my what? My how it answered my chat. But first, I think for the uncultured fucks, we should just do a basic premise description of this piece. My producers, my lovely producers who made me this little outline for the episodes these days, they gave me the plot description as written by Broadway licensing group. And unlike the Dreamgirls plotline, this one actually kind of is pretty accurate. So I'm gonna just read it as is because they did a better job probably than I ever could. So buckle up, kids. Yes, here we go. Or no. So it's Broadway Licensing global, not licensing group. I don't want to get sued. Okay. Hedvig tells the story of internationally ignored song stylist Hedvig Schmidt, a fourth wall smashing East German rock and roll goddess who also happens to be the victim of a botched sex change operation which has left her with just a quote, an angry inch. Using songs and monologues, Hedvig tells her story, which began in the former East Berlin, whereas Hansel, he meets Luther, an American GI who promises to take young man to the States on the condition that he switches sex. After the bungled operation, Luther abandons newly named Hedvig in a Kansas trailer park where she turns to music and meets geeky Tommy Speck, whom she takes under her wing and soon falls for Tommy, steals her songs, achieves rock star fame, and Hedvig is once again cast aside. She decides to demand redress and stalks Tommy's world tour, performing well, not in a TGI Fridays, but in the description, they say TGI Fridays in the TGI Fridays that are situated next door to his stadiums. Hedvig describes her life's search for the origin of love and her other half. It's a rocking ride, funny, touching, and ultimately inspiring to anyone who has felt life gave them an inch when they deserved a mile. Talk about that. Wordplay.
- [09:42]
A
Go Broadway, licensing global.
- [09:44]
B
I know, right?
- [09:45]
A
That's actually.
- [09:47]
B
Yeah, it's not. They kind of COVID all the basics, maybe not the nuances, but that's where we come in, Preston.
- [09:52]
A
Yeah, that's why I'm not allowed to describe shows is because that was a great description and may have been like, Hedwig is a really kind of nuanced and ethereal exploration of what it means to find peace within one's inner self in a world where others. And, like, they would have been like, please, let us not. Let us do this. You step us up.
- [10:10]
B
Exactly. It's like, child, we have this. We're going to take the reins now. That's. For a long time on this podcast, I would ask the guest, you know, what is the. What is this show about? I meant, like, the plot. Like, explain to the listeners what's the story of it? And a lot of people would go, well, you know, it's. It's about self discovery and mothers and children and. And trauma. And I'm like, yeah, but what happens in this story? And we're like, oh, well, you know, a train gets on the railroad and drives. And it's like, yeah, that's. That's Starlight Express for you.
- [10:41]
A
I haven't seen Starlight Express, which kills me every day.
- [10:45]
B
No one sees. No one sees Starlight Express. Everyone experiences Starlight.
- [10:49]
A
Okay. For a second, I was gonna say, I have two people who are gonna come to your house and murder you for saying, no.
- [10:56]
B
It's true. They don't. They experience it. I saw it in London when I was nine, and I. I honestly was a little bored. But I intend to go back to London soon and see the one that's, you know, living it up over there. It looks like so much fun. Yeah. That's all I have to say. But, yeah, enough about Starlight Express. Hedwig.
- [11:15]
A
Starlight Express chapter of the Hedwig podcast.
- [11:17]
B
Yeah. So. So once Hedwig entered your chat with this revival and then eventually the film, it's pretty much been embedded in your life ever since. You would say.
- [11:25]
A
Very. Yeah, I think it had a lot to. I don't know if it had a. Okay. I don't know if it had a lot to do with my gender journey, because I don't think it sparked me transitioning or anything, but I think that it, like, opened up a Kind of like musical language within my soul about wanting to explore things or understand myself in ways that I hadn't previously.
- [11:50]
B
Sure, yeah. I think that this piece, both at this As a stage, shown as a film, is a really unique, creative, and complicated exploration of identity. And I think the simple answer. That. There is no simple answer for any of us at any given moment. And that can. I mean, it can, even if we don't realize it sparks a new path for us, whatever that may be. Have you gotten a chance to perform in Hedwig or work on a production of Hedwig at any point?
- [12:27]
A
Can you imagine? I actually love to perform in Hedwig. That's a show I would love to do. I have had the chance to sing Origin of Love at piano karaoke a few times, and I've done Wicked Little.
- [12:39]
B
I've done Wicked Little Town and Wig in a Box.
- [12:41]
A
So, you know, together we're getting there. We'll take over.
- [12:45]
B
Absolutely. I think. I think you and I should do a True west situation where at any given performance, you are Hedwig and I am Yitzhak. And then you are Yitzhak and I am Hedwig.
- [12:57]
A
And I'm. Right.
- [12:59]
B
Jennifer Simard is Tommy Gnosis. That's just right.
- [13:03]
A
I won't even. I won't pay attention to the show.
- [13:07]
B
I'm just gonna watch. Just watch Jen.
- [13:09]
A
If Jen. I'll. I'll hold that door open to, like, check on Tommy and just never close the door. There. She. Yeah, that's me. I've seen. I've seen Death becomes her five times anyway.
- [13:20]
B
Just. Just twice for me, but very lovely. Two times. How familiar are you with sort of the history and the origins of Hedwig?
- [13:28]
A
Well, very familiar. Now. I was familiar before the packet that was sent to me to research Hedwig, but now I. Now I know an academic level. I would say I wanted.
- [13:38]
B
I wanted. On main here, Preston was not sent an email from this team saying, hey, Preston, you uncultured fuck. Read and watch all of these things. It was under the guise of, if you would like to hear some wonderful resources we have for you, if you would like to, you know, explore more. And Preston is a good student and said, yes, I absolutely will.
- [13:58]
A
Oh, yeah, no, I was sent an exceptional packet of, like, everything I wanted to brush up on.
- [14:05]
B
You're welcome.
- [14:05]
A
And I went, thank goodness. And then I had a wonderful weekend.
- [14:09]
B
Yes, you sure did. But I don't want it on any narrative, on anyone's goddamn lips, on anyone. Social media. That Broadway breakdown, forced new York City playwright Preston Max Allen to do homework to be a guest on the podcast.
- [14:24]
A
I think if you're streaming this live and unedited, honestly, that moment is the least of our problems. This is going to be a seven hour Hedwig podcast where we talk about everything on Broadway that ever was or ever has been.
- [14:38]
B
Oh, my God. Not trying to cancel me on my own podcast, Preston.
- [14:42]
A
No, I'm not canceling you. I'm. I'm opening the door to fans who are waiting for a seven hour podcast.
- [14:47]
B
And that's just. And that's an invitation to cancel me because, my God, the things, the opinions that I have on everything. Preston, you've heard some of them. Come on. I'm.
- [14:56]
A
I'm pretty sure that, like, two and a half hours into the Carrie podcast, I flat out say, I don't think anyone else has listened this far. I'm gonna, like, be totally honest. Like, I can't cancel myself and everything we do. Eventually, I'm like, if you're still listening, you've unlocked the special content of things I maybe shouldn't say because I work in the industry.
- [15:16]
B
The Pandora's box, one might say. So. So Hedwig and the Angry Inch, though, is created by John Cameron Mitchell with songs by Stephen Trask. Now, for anyone who wants to bone up in the way that Preston and I did for this podcast, there's a wonderful documentary that's available on YouTube called whether your like it or the Story of Hedwig. There's also an oral history that I believe Rolling Stone published only.
- [15:42]
A
Only read that once because then they will not let you read it again. So when you read it, unless you have a subscription, commit it all to.
- [15:49]
B
Commit it all to memory. Most of the Rolling Stone oral history is, you know, covered in the documentary. The only thing that is less covered is the revi. The origins of the revival, and like, a bit more details on the film. But, you know, we have here John Cameron Mitchell, who at this point in circa 1993, 94, was a theater actor. He was best known at this point for the Secret Garden. He, I think, probably just did hello again. And he's on a flight, I think, from LA to New York or from New York to la. And Stephen Trask ends up sitting down next to him and putting down a book that he's reading. It's a biography of. Forget who he said it was on. But it was some biography, some biography that sparked a conversation between the two of them. And then they started sort of talking about things that they both wanted to do. Stephen Trask was more sort of in the rock and roll world and the nightclub world, and John Cameron Mitchell was a bit more theater based. The inspiration for Hedwig came with John Cameron Mitchell sort of wanting to write a show and not really knowing what it would be, and basically just telling Stephen Trask stories of his life or having lived in army bases and his mother being Irish, meeting his father, who was like, I think, like an army officer who then ended up working for the US Government, like, ended up getting going very high up in the US Government. Trask was like, yeah, that's. That's not as interesting. That's not as interesting. And then he's like, well, you know, we used to have this babysitter when I was a kid. She was a German army wife, lived in a trailer park. And it wasn't until I was, like, in college, my siblings and I were like, oh, I think she moonlighted as a sex worker as well, because she would babysit them in her. In her trailer. And he said, you know, at the time, I used to think, oh, she's so popular. She's got all these dates all the time, and she's not even. Like, I would think she's not that pretty. Like, why is she. Why is every night a new guy? And she would look out the window and see the guys, and if she liked how they looked, she would tell the kids, you know, go out the back and go home, and I'll. I'll see you tomorrow. And if she didn't like how they looked, she's like, I'm going out the back with you. And years later, they realized, oh, she was a sex worker. And Stephen Trask was like, I think that's interesting. Let's write a musical about her.
- [17:56]
A
I agree. I agree with Stephen Trask. I'm glad they went in that direction.
- [18:01]
B
As do I. I don't know where the rest of the origins of Hedwig came in their writing of the show, other than it was always that John was gonna perform it. And they agreed that John telling a story about someone was less interesting than that someone telling their story.
- [18:20]
A
And, well, it was initially vignettes, wasn't it? And they were trying to piece the show together as they were doing it.
- [18:27]
B
Yeah.
- [18:28]
A
So, like, they just had these ideas that we're talking about now, and we're, like, exploring how they make it a show, like, on their feet in clubs.
- [18:37]
B
I think the club thing came out of necessity, just. And out of kismet, because the first performance of Hedwig ever Was at a drag bar called the Squeeze Box, which no longer exists. But it was specifically. We used to have niche clubs. Preston. It was a drag club for rock and roll, queer community people. People were like, I don't want to go to Splash. I want to listen to Debbie Harry. We used to have culture, I think, with. Yeah, with Hedwig. From what I recall from the documentary, from the oral history, it was, as you said, vignettes. And again, more John Cameron Mitchell being a storyteller and them recognizing. It's less. It's less interesting to talk about the interesting people in a third person. Be the interesting person telling the story. And so that sort of. And they zeroed in on Hedwig because they liked that story the most and found the most potential in her. And most. The first performance at Squeezebox was mostly these monologues with, I think only two original songs. Tear Me down was one. And I don't remember what the other song was. Might've been Origin of Love.
- [19:38]
A
Yeah, those are definitely the ones that came first. Cause it was all they were. I found this very fascinating. Cause I noticed that they were all like rewritten lyrics of songs that were preexisting for the very most part. And that's why I think. Cause I think initially. And I could be wrong, but I think it was going to be like, from Tommy's perspective. And then they went, no, let's have it be like. I just love how they pieced all of these elements together in these, like, show moments. It's just the most like, beautiful and distilled version of, like, how to figure your show out. Going from like, we know it's a musical. Let's put in some songs. Let's just like write the lyrics differently to these pre existing songs. And it's like such a cool. Like, we don't get to develop that way anymore. Which is like, let's see what works best. Let's see what people are attracted to most. And I think the music, the way the music was built in the show is like such an incredible example of like, how we could be building musicals.
- [20:30]
B
Absolutely. Well, because it came from genuinely, these artists zeroing in on what fascinated them, what they found entertaining. And then sort of like through a trial by fire in front of just open, honest crowds who weren't theater folk. They were just at a club. And if they didn't like it, they would start talking during your song or they would start talking during your monologue. And that's how you sort of figure out, oh, we don't. We've lost them. Let's. Let's go back to the thing that keeps them connected. And yeah, I think. I don't remember if it was. Tommy Gnosis was supposed to be the narrator, but Tommy Spec Gnosis is based off of John Cameron Mitchell and his life so that it made sense that they would have John be that character and then only to go into the Hedwig stuff. And it's not as if it was this like light bulb moment that everyone signed off on. John Cameron Mitchell talks about it to this day that he had never done drag. He was always sort of put off by drag, as were a lot of people. As honestly, I'll say it. As was I until I started watching Drag Race. We all have our journeys to get to the place where we need to be. And here we are now. And now I am a. Look at me, Preston. I am basically a drag queen barely standing in front of you.
- [21:43]
A
And I am Yitzchak.
- [21:45]
B
But yeah, no, it's, it's you. It's this four year development of piecing it all together and then bringing on new people. And as each person comes on, they add something new to the, to the pile. Because it was, in a lot of ways, the character was fully formed by the time they made it. You know, I think it's the West Bath or West Beth Theater before it became the open ended run to the Jane Street. The director they brought on was the one who came up with the idea of Hedwig kind of stalking. Tommy knows concerts and that Tommy is performing across the way because Baskin, that is the name of the original director because he's like, as of right now, it's just Hedwig talking about things that have happened and you need something to give it present day tension. And so it's, you know, we've led to this moment and now Tommy is across the way. Hedwig is stalking him, trying to just get recognition and get. Yeah, just, just to get recognition at this point, because Hedwig is. They're trying to erase Hedwig from the, from Tommy's narrative and she will not let them do that. Yeah. And then. And we're kind of bastardizing this journey here. But it's mostly because over the course of four years, three major things happen. They do the Squeezebox and they develop it for a few years at various nightclubs. Monologues, new songs. They do a $29,000 production at the Westbeth Theater, which they then move to the Jane street. And it opens at the Jane street and has A two year run. And it just sort of takes off from there. And that's in a lot of ways like the first chunk of the history of Hedwig in a nutshell.
- [23:24]
A
That's true. But it's like when you. When I. Because I didn't. I didn't know the history previous to the packet that was forced to buy me. I'm just kidding. I loved. I loved my dramaturgy. I didn't know the history of Hedwig previously in that way. And I always just thought of it as like this magical show that had kind of dropped down from the sky, which is crazy for a writer. But I didn't think about, like, how it was developed. I just loved it. Which to me is like a show that I think is specialist something. I don't think about how it was created, but then looking at how it was created, it was like the coolest, most unique kind of way I could think to develop something that ended up being so cool and unique. And I think of Hedwig, that is of a show as a show that's like alive and always alive in every performance and different in every performance. And it makes so much sense that it was developed in comedy clubs and rock venues as a standup show, as a rock show. And not to slander this model. I work within this model. Three cheers to this model. But not in like the 29 hour model that we have today to develop musicals as much. Because that, you know, you have to polish, you have to kind of standardize. It has to be something people are going to walk in and be familiar with when you're trying to pitch your show. And I know that we develop in concerts and in all sorts of ways, but the fact that it was built in this very entwined with the audience kind of way and entwined with audience reaction, entwined with what felt most emotional and what was working the most and what was the most personal and connective, I think is what makes it such a unique. Such a unique piece. Because it came together like through people. It came together through with the audience. Yeah.
- [24:56]
B
Well, how often is it, though, that a theatrical piece can be workshopped in the form that the show is meant to be? And that's a very vague way to say essentially that Hedwig and the Angry Inch is a musical done in the structure of a concert. It is not a. It is a book musical. There's a full blown libretto and original songs and there's an arc and everything. But the way it is presented is you were at a concert for Hedwig and the Angry Inch, as she tells you why you're here and what's going on. Like, it's all happening in real time. And the piece was developed through the medium of basically rock concerts in real time. So, like, it's Every time they do it, it's at a club with an audience as a rock concert. And so as opposed to, I don't know, let's say any other show that. Okay, I'll put it this way. If someone were to write a musical today and say we're doing it in the style of a vaudeville, where you have sketches and songs, and they. While they all seem separated from each other, they all are connected thematically to this one story. It's like, cool.
- [26:05]
A
You.
- [26:05]
B
You're not developing that touring vaudeville houses across America till you get it right. You're. You're doing workshops at, you know, new 42 and all these other things in this. In the essence of vaudeville. But this was something that was actually. We were just constantly doing narrative rock concerts over the course of four years until we. It became how we wanted it to be. I feel like if you aren't understanding what I'm saying by now, you're not going to understand what I'm saying by now. But if you do understand what I'm saying by now, you're like, matt, I get it. You can stop hitting the nail.
- [26:36]
A
You know what I mean? Yeah. No, I, I, I think I'm trying. I think the thing that's trying to, like, help me contextualize, which isn't gonna work to a degree, is like, what other shows developed in this way and are this way? And I'm. I know there must be. I'm not saying someone will comment the ones that were. But I'm like, six is a concert musical. But six was presented as, you know, in. As it was, I think, in Edinburgh. And, you know, they edited it from there. But it's not like they performed six in pop culture venues, like, trying to mold it into.
- [27:08]
B
Yeah, they didn't go to, like, Lollapalooza every year. Developing six six kind of was pretty fully.
- [27:13]
A
For matching six fabulous to imagine, right?
- [27:18]
B
Evelyn going to Lollapalooza and going like, I have my song, new single.
- [27:24]
A
Oh, Lord, that's really great.
- [27:26]
B
What I will say is, you know, so many shows developed via concert format, presenting songs and whatnot. You've done it, everyone's done it. But. But, you know, we Are the Tigers was not a concert. It was a musical. And the concerts were reformed to sort of get the material out there. And. And so with Hedwig, with every concert they did, it was genuinely just like another workshop of the whole piece. And it's. I think that was just sort of the fortune of that. That was the style that the show was being done in, that they were able to do that as often as they were, you know.
- [28:03]
A
Yeah. And I think that, like, as pivotal. Cause I think of it as like, okay, it's a rock concert, they're workshopping it in rock venues. It's a standup piece in a lot of ways. They're workshopping it in stand up spaces. I think the influence that the queens had on the show and on the character of Hedwig is maybe the most pivotal in terms of like workshopping it as a living piece in that culture. Because I found it very fascinating to kind of read about how people were like, you can't be. And this is a larger conversation about Hedwig and gender, kind of. That I'm sure we'll get into. But like, this idea that the queens were like, you can't come into our space. Like kind of this sacred space of like genuine drag performance and drag queen performance and exploration and this humanity and culture of drag and you know, what authentically comes along with it with gender exploration and like, act this or, like, play at this, or step into this and step away. Like, you have to be Hedwig. And I think that especially when you look back at, you know, Jane street versus Broadway, like, the connective thing through all of this is, like, when John Cameron Mitchell is Hedwig, John Cameron Mitchell is Hedwig. And I think that that's what makes the show so special and what makes watching it with him so unique is that I think, I imagine that he really took that to heart. And that's what makes the characters so alive and so human and so able to adapt into all these different spaces and every different audience and every is you. Not that it's a play. It's not that it's a musical in the traditional sense. Like, I think that whatever that conversation was and how it evolved of being like, if you're gonna do this, it's not an act. It's not, you know, it's not something that, you know, like to say, it's not a costume that one takes on and off is a complicated statement. But especially in the 90s, when it's not, as, you know, RuPaul's Drag Race doesn't exist. It's not broadcast all over our screens. It's a sacred culture. It still is, but especially, you know.
- [29:56]
B
Yeah.
- [29:57]
A
When it's like, where safety exists, these spaces, where that kind of safety exists, that kind of visibility exists, that kind of community exists, in my opinion. I think that that was really influential in a really positive way for the character of Hedwig, who is at the center of the piece more than the genre and more than the container. And so, yeah, I'm very grateful that that conversation was had, I guess. And I'm really grateful that that conversation was honored, because I think it would be so easy to play at drag or, you know, play at femininity, play at womanhood. And I don't think Hedwig is doing those things. And there's more to that conversation than that. But I think that those queens that set that tone and kind of advised that responsibility were as influential as, like, anything else on the piece.
- [30:43]
B
Absolutely. No, we will get more into John's performance and the drag and the femininity of the piece. Let's get into more of that right after this break. Really? I beg to differ with you. How do you mean?
- [30:54]
A
You're the top.
- [30:55]
B
Yeah.
- [30:57]
A
You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire.
- [31:07]
B
And we're back. We heard. We had some commercials, and now we're gonna talk about gender, because, you know. Cause that's just easy.
- [31:17]
A
What was gender brought to us by? Gender brought to you by. I won't even put a placeholder. I'm gonna put play on. Play a montage of all the Death becomes her wedding things.
- [31:28]
B
Absolutely. Brought to you by Factor. Brought to you by Grindr. It's. Yeah. Who knows? Who knows? Because we're sort of in a transitional period on the podcast in terms of revenue. Transitional, but in terms of revenue.
- [31:43]
A
Okay.
- [31:43]
B
So unclear if we'll even have any in the ad break, but we. We put them in there for future ref. So I think the thing to talk about first with Hedwig as we talk about gender and sexuality and costume, because I. I agree with you. The queens at Squeezebox and all the other venues that they were workshopping at being resistant towards the show being developed there and kind of holding Mitchell and Trask and the whole creative team accountable for really not just going for easy and not going for complacent, but actually kind of embodying, you know, gender. In case we forgot that we're allowed to curse on this podcast. Preston, we can. Hey, yeah, yeah, you, baby. But. But I think that Also kind of helped maybe develop Hedwig as a character as well as Hedwig's story. Because the thing about Hedwig as a character, they are sort of simpler and more complicated than all of the conversations that they have inspired. Because John Cameron Mitchell has been very insistent that Hedwig herself is not a trans character. She is a, first and foremost, a survivor and adapts throughout her journey. And because of that, Mitchell firmly believes that anyone can play Hedwig and really discourages any conversation of, like, who should. It's because of Hedwig's journey and Hedwig's sort of confused state on themselves. It allows anyone to bring themselves to it. I think some performers get a little caught up in the quote unquote drag Persona of Hedwig. And that is a. I would call that a trap. But also there's the showmanship in the role. For example, part of the reason why Neil Patrick Harris was a bit more sort of like Broadway y showmanshippy is because his production of Hedwig was done on a Broadway stage with a Broadway set under different contexts. They had sort of. They gave it a reason to be in a Broadway theater. But because of all of that, Hedwig as a person sort of morphed into something different than what it was in 1998 at the Jane Street Theater.
- [34:09]
A
I'd say that Hedwig is very powerful as a coping mechanism, and Hedwig is powerful within herself. But on stage in this story is someone who is very hurt and very, I would say, kind of desperate to know herself, which is the journey of the whole show, but who doesn't want to confront those kind of unanswerable questions, those deep, painful, you know, veins that run within us and is playful and sassy and funny and controlling and damaging to the people around her and lashes out and cleans it up with comedy and is so full of life, but so lost in who she is and what people have made her and what she wants to be that I think is just this perfect storm of someone who is struggling to connect with everyone around them because of how they connect with themself, but also is just such a strong, cool, talented character and person that there's so much that shines through nonetheless. And I think that's what's so important about Hedwig, is that it's not a woe is me or a feeling sorry for herself. But there is so much drive and creativity and heart and music and I think the musical language of the shows, all of that kind of without Us having to dig for it.
- [35:47]
B
Yeah, I think the line, I laugh because I cry if I don't is a really great representation of Hedwig. And what I love about John Cameron Mitchell's performance because my. So my introduction to Hedwig. Thank you for asking everybody, was the movie. I didn't see it when it came out in theaters like seven people did, but I remember when it was coming out because I did not know the stage show, but I was a child in Manhattan at the time that it was around. And while it was never like a rent size gargantuan hit, it was successful for an off Broadway show. It ran for two years and posters were everywhere. And I remember seeing posters for it all the time and not knowing it was a show, thinking it was genuinely just a rock concert. And then when the movie was coming out, I remember reading reviews for it and seeing stills from the film and not being uncomfortable, but the almost garishness with which John Cameron Mitchell is made up as Hedwig. 11 year old me did not really know what to do with that. I. It fascinated me and scared me a little bit. And so I didn't see the movie, I think until I was 13. So much older, so much wiser. And I think it was on, I remember. What I remember was it was on Showtime and I. I had been watching the last like 15 minutes first. That was for some reason my context. It was Tommy picking Hedwig up in the limo in the meatpacking district to the end. And I was like, the fuck am I watching? And then when it came up again on Showtime a couple of weeks later, I was like, oh, I'm gonna watch this from the very beginning now. And very much came on board with it, got more into the score, saw Neil do it the night before the Tony Awards, which was awesome. And then somebody posted the Lincoln center archival video of the Jane street production with John Cameron Mitchell. And I believe it is still. No, it is still on YouTube. And I watched that rather religiously until John Cameron Mitchell himself went into the show and that's. And I went back to see him do it on Broadway. And what I love about John's take on the role, because John himself is such a. An incredibly intelligent, insightful person in a way that's almost frightening. Yes, because he sees so much. He's someone who's able to see the larger picture and can sort of see where we're all at and who we all are and where we're going and where we came from. And there's a Calm quality to the way he speaks that he incorporates into Hedwig. And I feel like his Hedwig. She is so smart. She is so smart. And there's a loneliness to that kind of intelligence because so few people can operate on that level. And when you are accepting love from someone or admitting that you would like love from someone, it's not because necessarily they're. You're equal in many ways. The. One of the topics of conversation, Hedwig, is your other half. And we'll talk about origin of love in the Aristophanes speech in the symposium. But the idea of your other half isn't necessarily your equal. It's just the person who fits you. And Hedwig is not someone who is easy to be vulnerable with, or they. It's hard for Hedwig to be vulnerable with people because every time Hedwig has been vulnerable with someone and allowed themselves to let someone in, that person has used and abused them. And they've had so much trauma at this point and have survived so much at this point that it no longer registers as tragic pain, but as tragic numbness, you know, a shell. At this point, I have. I still have my intelligence. I have my talent, I have my humor. But my ability to love and be loved has very much been compromised, which is affecting her and how she treats others, how she treats Yitzhak, who, in the case of the show, in the. In the movie, is someone who is there, is supportive, wants to be there, wants to be loved by Hedwig. And Hedwig kind of refuses to do it. And it's just so fascinating to watch in a way that every other Hedwig I've watched, either live or via bootleg, loves sort of the fabulous campiness of the role, but doesn't totally get that, like that East Berlin cold for element of Hedwig. A lot of critics refer to John Cameron Mitchell as being like Marlene Dietrich esque. And I think that's very astute because Marlena Dietrich was a wry, androgynous sex symbol that came from just being very cold and very removed and you wanting to please her rather than her wanting to please you.
- [40:42]
A
Yes. Yeah. I think the difference for me between, like, a really profound Hedwig and someone who is playing Hedwig watchably. But, like, the difference is that I think there are performers who care deeply about playing Hedwig, and there are performers who care about the challenge of performing the role. And I think you can tell who's doing what. It doesn't mean that people who care about the challenge or want to meet the challenge of performing this difficult role aren't doing a good job. But I think you can really tell when someone is locked into the. Holding Hedwig in their arms and, like, walking her through this.
- [41:25]
B
Yeah.
- [41:25]
A
And John doesn't even have to do that. John can be Hedwig in a way that no one else can be. And I think that's the difference. When people are like, oh, John is Hedwig. I'm like, I've had really fulfilling experiences watching people who are holding Hedwig in their arms, and it's beautiful. But John. Yeah, John doesn't have to take that step.
- [41:42]
B
Yeah. It's the difference between wearing Hedwig's skin and wearing Hedwig's clothes.
- [41:47]
A
Yeah.
- [41:47]
B
There are performers who. They understand the aesthetic and they understand maybe the energy and the vibes and the humor, but maybe less of the hurt and maybe less of the exhaustion. Yeah.
- [42:01]
A
And I think that for me, like, what makes a show a success fundamentally, like, nonetheless, no matter what approach someone's taking is, you know, the music of it is always going to. You know, for someone who's playing the camp and not necessarily digging into her, the music's always gonna do that. The music and the lyric is always going to. I think this is what's at the pairing of John and John's humor and John's satire and camp and comedy to deflect is that the music doesn't do that very much. Like, even Wig in a Box, which is so poppy and fun, has some of the hardest hitting moments of like, and I come home and I'm myself and I go back to myself. So the music is always gonna take care of those parts of Hedwig. So even if the performer isn't necessarily fully doing that, they're always gonna have to sing these songs that are the rich inner soul of Hedwig at different various points. And I think that's, you know, there's musicals that the music can't capture that. So when the performer can't quite meet it and the music doesn't quite capture it, you're watching EH of a show. When you're watching an extraordinary performer do an eh show, it's great. When you're watching a EH show be done by, like, an extraordinary, you know, like, the mix of that. But Hedwig can. Like, I can watch and I haven't. I've enjoyed more of the Hedwigs that I've seen more than any of this, but I could watch, like, an almost unwatchable Hedwig. But the show itself is so rich in what it's doing and the music is so rich in this inner world of it that I think I would always find something to really love and to mine in it. I think that that's what is always a success about why it's always so fun to see who's playing Hedwig. Even if they're not quite a fit, you know, the show's gonna get them through for sure.
- [43:38]
B
That's. I think you hit the nail on the head though, in regards to the music. And I want to get into the music. I want it. We're gonna be basic pretty soon and just like talk about songs you love, but it's like. But because, I mean, you're. I know that you love your pop and. And are you much of a rock and roll Stan? I don't. I don't know.
- [43:58]
A
My foundational music as a person and artist from middle school forward is the holy trinity of Fall Out Boy, My Chemical Romance, and Paramore. So I would say the pop punk world is strong in me. Um, but I. But I'm very. I come much more from punk than rock, but punk rock is a home base for me. Yeah.
- [44:19]
B
So I'm. I'm a. I'm a. Not a visitor. I'm a late in life. Yeah, I'm. I'm a visitor. I'm a late in life tourist to these worlds. But what I've learned is with. In a way that. That modern day musical theater has kind of forgotten pop and rock and punk rock. It's almost a grift because they will sell you a bop with lyrics that cut you to your core, that don't necessarily have the preciseness of a Sondheim lyric, but they also aren't so on the nose as to tell you exactly what to feel. It's the. I can dance to this while I cry at the same time. And there are so many other artists of that genre of punk rock that. That do the same thing. I think that's, as you said, what makes the songs of Hedwig help keep the show afloat is Hedwig, when she speaks, is honest with the deflection of comedy. And the songs are. Because Hedwig, in the world of the show, writes these songs. And the songs are genuine insight into her. Her psyche.
- [45:23]
A
Yeah. And I think that, I mean, that's why this is tagging a little bit off of what we were talking about in a moment ago. But connects like. That's why I stopped at one point Kind of gravitating towards musical theater music and more into punk, rock, pop rock, and rock in general is because I think musical theater, when it's written by people who are like. And I, you know, I'm not counting myself among these people, like, you know, people who are masters of it, it's exceptional. And even not, it can be very powerful. But there's also, like, machines at play in a lot of musical theater that are trying to create a sound, which I can say fully, with confidence, because there's entire educational institutions that are trying to build the sound of musical theater and punk and rock and every genre, especially in those fueled by rage, fueled by hurt, are so messy and so glorious that I found a lot more honesty eventually in worlds outside of musical theater because I got so familiar with what the machine of it was trying to create. And there's people who can work outside of that and do really successfully or inside of that and do successfully, but that messy world of like, an angry, hurt person, an angry, hurt queer person a lot of the time at a microphone is so, so much more honest a lot of the time than trying to create a moment. And I think that's why Hedwig shines. And I think that's why it also has the cult following kind of that it does. Because. Yeah, because there's a messiness to it. And I think a lot of musical theater wants to not be messy and needs to not be messy and needs to feel clean and shiny. And I think we see that a lot. I think we see that in a lot of finales, especially in musical theater. And I think that the messiness of Hedwig is what is so beautiful about it. And I also think it has to do with the fact that while Jon is and has created Hedwig in so many ways, that Steven is also a voice of Hedwig and can maybe unlock things in Hedwig that John's access into the character doesn't have access to because it's just a different emotional sphere that the character's trying to run away from. But Steven has access to it musically. And I think that's what makes it so fulfilling and I think what draws so many people to it.
- [47:42]
B
Yeah, Hedwig's monologues are her. You know, her tight 10 at, you know, the Laugh Factory, but her songs are her poetry. And it may be a different vocabulary, but it does have to still come from the same brain. And I think, yes, you're right. That's where Steven really steps up to the plate and knocks it out of the park one right after the other. And when I say poetry, they're not condescending and they're not masturbatory. There's a messiness, and yet there's also a restraint to it. And I think that that's important based off of who Hedwig is, her upbringing, her influences. Because what we learned from her childhood is how hungry she was for Western culture and Western music and just sort of genuinely loved the craft and the creativity of this stuff and just and naturally comes to her in this. And it's her. It's her gift, it's her talent. The other thing about Hedwig as a character that I love, and I feel like people get confused by this because I read an article recently in preparation for this, just sort of on the fly. Someone was talking about the movie because the movie is what's most readily accessible to people saying, you know, the movie is very important and I love it very much. But let's be honest, there's a lot that's problematic about it. And I sit here and I say all the time, is it problematic or are you uncomfortable? Because I think a lot of people want to believe, especially now. We are definitely in a century where writers are catering to this mentality now of telling you what a show's about or what a story's about, what you. How, what you're supposed to take away from it, and knowing which character you're supposed to root for and why. And if you're going to root for them, they can only have, you know, three faults max. And those faults better not be super uncomfortable ones because how else am I supposed to follow them? And Hedwig does not talk about messiness. Hedwig does not follow those rules at all. Hedwig has had massive trauma. Hedwig also has done some very shady things. Hedwig gets involved, you know, at the age of 30, 31, with a 17 year old, and then basically starts stalking said 17 to 19 year old for the next, like, year and a half. It's not a journey that Gen Alpha or Gen Z would really love to put on paper. And yet does that make Hedwig any less compelling or relatable of a person? I don't think so.
- [50:10]
A
I think it's because she claimed, oh, no, say what you think, that's what it was.
- [50:14]
B
I don't think.
- [50:15]
A
I don't.
- [50:15]
B
I don't think it makes any any less relatable, or rather not even just relatable, because you don't have to relate to Someone to find their story compelling. That is the whole point of empathy which we as a society are losing left and right. Not just in terms of the world, but in terms of our art. Like the number of people who go, well, I couldn't relate to it because none of that ever happened to me. I'm like, is that what it takes for you to be moved? It has to mirror your experience? Exactly.
- [50:40]
A
Don't pitch for film and TV if you don't want to hear that. Don't put that in. Nah, you can't.
- [50:49]
B
No, that's everyone. Everyone. It's a lot of.
- [50:52]
A
This is a lovely and unique story, but how can we make everyone understand and access it? I think that's the thing about Hedwig that I find very compelling, and I imagine other people do too, is the fact that she is absolutely shameless may not be the right word, but unabashed maybe is about all of these things that other people would try to hide. Like everything someone else might try to hide, she has just completely out in the open. Whether or not that's because she can't hide it or because she doesn't want to, or it's just easier. And whatever it is, she's, you know, so open about all of these things. And I think even though, yeah, like.
- [51:27]
B
We don't want to look, we wouldn't.
- [51:28]
A
Want them on paper, we wouldn't, you know, I think it's what makes her accessible maybe to Gen Z and Gen Alpha. She's not hiding it. She's not pretending these things aren't bad. She's not pretending she didn't do them. And I think it's fascinating. I think there's an envy to not, you know, what her life is, because there's so much pain in that, but to how she has embraced it with just complete open hearted standing on whatever empty stage she's on and just giving it all. Even if there was no one in the audience, which the movie I have complicated feelings on, but when she's doing it to like one person, I think that's so true of Hedwig. Even if no one is there, she will stand there and she will break her heart open. If it's one person, if it's, you know, 2,000. And I think that the fascination of that and the honesty of that is so compelling and so hard to do in art, to make a character that honest and that compelling and that messy and that endearing that I hope she withstands the test of time. And we can pocket this for another section, but also has to do with, I think, why conversations of Hedwig and gender are always a little more complicated than they can be. But that is hard to talk about peripherally. So I'll have to lock in on that when we. When you are ready for the moment.
- [52:48]
B
Absolutely. I think the other thing that's important to mention, because we don't really say. We didn't say this in the plot description or in our discussion of Hedwig's journey. The end of the show is kind of a clusterfuck and ultimately is a breakdown moment where Hedwig starts to tear off her drag, so to speak, her wig, her dress, her tomato implants. And all of a sudden, through the magic and the purgatory that is theater becomes Tommy Gnosis performing a reprise of Wicked Little Town. And we go back to Hedwig in the form of Tommy, essentially because it's played by the same performer on stage. And kind of. I don't say wordlessly, because then they sing Midnight Radio, but there's no monologue of here's what I've learned through my breakdown. But sort of accepting that their other half is not out there, but in them, and allowing themselves to be whole standing there. And. And. And then. And thus, by repairing that brokenness in them, allowing themselves to cut off their toxicity with everyone else on stage, for example, allowing Yitzhak to put on a wig again and do what Yitzhak loves to do. What I think people don't realize sometimes, maybe they understand it intrinsically, but they don't realize it at the outset, is that the entire show we're watching, which is happening in real time, is ultimately Hedwig at their rock bottom and on the verge of this breakdown that is about to happen. Which is why they are so honest, why they're so. Take me as I am. Because ultimately, with everything they've gone through, with everything that they have survived, not nothing else matters. Teenagers finding their story problematic is small potatoes to them. It's like, okay, you don't like what I said or what I did? Okay, may I continue, please? And. And you. And. And that is in the story. There's a great joke of Hedwig wearing a fur coat and someone coming up to the going, like, what poor creature had to die for you to wear that? My Aunt Trudy. It's just so fucking funny. And, yeah, I think that people gravitate towards confidence. They gravitate towards honesty. And, yeah, that's all I gotta say. I'm done. I'm spent. Episode over.
- [55:19]
A
We're done. Not even talked about transgender people yet. No. Who? What have you heard of that? You'll need to guide. You'll need to guide me, or else I'll go in 12 directions at once and it'll be very exciting.
- [55:36]
B
Sorry, I need to guide you, Preston, I know it's been three years, but do you forget what podcast you're on?
- [55:40]
A
Oh, you're always such a good steward of the content. I meant that it came out sarcastic, but I meant it so genuinely. That's why I lost a couple jobs.
- [55:53]
B
I know.
- [55:56]
A
What. Okay, so to talk about. If we're doing a part two structure, to talk about the reception initially of Hedwig within the conversation of gender.
- [56:10]
B
Before. Before we do that, Preston, steward of the content.
- [56:15]
A
You were last name.
- [56:16]
B
That's my drag name. Stewart. Stewart of the content. No, before we do any of that, let us just take a quick break.
- [56:22]
A
A break. Slay Billy.
- [56:23]
B
I beg to differ with you. How do you mean?
- [56:25]
A
You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire.
- [56:38]
B
And we're back. Okay, so, you know, gender, gender again.
- [56:44]
A
Brought to you by Kleenex.
- [56:48]
B
Brought to you by Tide.
- [56:50]
A
No one is going to understand. Now, in general conversation, when I suddenly go, gender, brought to you by Manhattan.
- [56:56]
B
Theatre Club, we're going to make that a meme of you, and it's going to replace Saoirse, Ronan and Little Women just going, women, women, gender.
- [57:08]
A
So a big conversation, if you're ready to get into it, is. And I know that. And I'm going to try to respect all angles here. An effort to respect everyone. I'm just kidding. Is. Is Hedwig as. And I believe that. I don't know how prominent this was exactly when it came out, but I believe that it was and kind of continues to be a discussion of is Hedwig really dangerous, Potentially representation of a transgender narrative. And I want to preface immediately by saying Hedwig and John Kerry, Mitchell and the story itself are very clear that Hedwig is not trans, that Hedwig is not a trans woman. How. How Hedwig experiences gender is much more complicated than that. But this is not a story that. That purports to be about a trans woman. And so, you know, I was. I was looking at some comments, you know, doing my research, that were like, I hate this. And talk about, you know, how the movie was really like, I hate this. This is what people think it Means to be trans people who think you get surgery to get something, like how Hedwig got surgery to get out of East Berlin. Like, this is so dangerous. This is so damaging. And I think you could absolutely apply that in the 90s when the representation kind of at all. And I think you could apply it now in a. In a way where we are so far back and people are saying, oh, transgender surgery is mutilation. It was just entirely the journey. But the two things there. I'll. I'm gonna try to say two talking points at once. The two things there is a big problem that Henry has is her surgery was botched. It was not a certified surgeon who knew what they were doing. So that immediately kind of flips that argument. And then the other thing, which is it's very clear that she is not trans. It's kind. If you're gonna look at that, you have to blame Tootsie for the same thing, which is pretending. Get it. It's very different. But you could. People were not out there accusing Tootsie and Mass of doing the same thing, except for a lot of trans people and people who would listen to us. But Hedwig is about getting to know yourself. It's about the positions other people put us in and experiences with gender and personhood that I think are so complex and so powerful and so necessary. But I will say, too, to protect or to empathize with people who were really frustrated, especially when it came out that if there is no representation really widely available of transgender people, and then this property becomes pretty prominent, I can understand, like, I'm not a trans woman. I'm a trans man for everyone listening, but I'm not a trans woman. But to see, like, oh, this narrative that does so many things that people think, even though it is not about that, even though it's not trying, even though it is honest, even though it is doing a lot of cool and unique stuff, it does, people can pull things from it and play into very hateful things and use it against the community in very hateful ways. And I understand feeling that angle or feeling that frustration or feeling that betrayal from the property. I don't feel that way, and I don't think it's a fault of the property. I think it's a fault of the culture that people are looking for those kinds of things. So it's one of those things where it's like, ugh, if there had been a wealth of representation, then I think Hedwig would have been a really cool piece within the wealth of Representation. But there wasn't. And so I think it's. You know, people could have really looked at it and been like, oh, look at this trans woman who got this botched surgery, or this man who got this botched surgery, and now his life is ruined, and blah, blah. So I can see how people could be harmed by that or feel harmed from it, but it is not. It is not what the show is. So that was my. My asterisk of respect for people who find it harmful or who find it bad for the community, but it's just not what it is. That's the fault of the culture that attacks anyone who explores gender or who only looks for terrible things to say and feel about the trans community, or who only sees us as, like, surgically ruined people. And that's not Hedwig's fault. It's not our fault. It's not John Cameron Mitchell's fault. It's that culture's fault that wants to demonize us. But, yeah, it's compl. I mean, it is complicated. So much of wanting transgender representation or gender questioning or queer in general representation, craving representation that's not perfect and shiny. And we sing a finale at the end that goes, love everyone. Yay. Everyone's beautiful. But instead, people are messy. These things are complicated. We're making mistakes. Like, we don't really get that representation because we're so far behind that we need to be like, hey, we're good people. And, like, we're normal. We're fine. But, yes. Yeah, it's just. It's more complicated than that, Especially when musical theater typically wants things to be black and white. Like, this person's good, this person's bad. And Hedwig is so outside of that.
- [62:00]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, theater in general, storytelling in general, is odd because you are taking elements of the human experience, condensing it, sometimes simplifying it, and then tweaking it to get a certain kind of result. And as we have continued down the path of society, so has the medium of storytelling, and that goes into theater and then into opera and to musicals, and then it's a film. And then what kinds of film and the manipulation that you can find in a movie, with what kind of music are you going to play under a certain scene? And what kind of actor are you going to cast for this certain kind of role? And some things are meant to simply entertain. Some things are meant to be a reflection. Some things are meant to just be an allegory. I think that the worst kinds of pieces, theatrical, film, whatever, are the, as I said, are the ones that are trying to tell you what they are and. And please everybody.
- [62:58]
A
Yeah.
- [62:59]
B
The ones that are mysteries to solve or that can never truly be solved, but can always just be discussed, like a Hedwig and the Anchorage are the ones that I think are going to remain evergreen. And I think with all the criticisms that this piece has had, it still finds a way to endure, like the character of Hedwig herself and finds ways to be uplifting and problematic, quote, unquote, over and over and over again. And I agree with you. I mean, I. I don't. First of all, no. If no one person can represent an entire group of people, no one story can either. And I feel like the story of Hedwig is so operatic in a lot of ways that no one can really. People can. People have. But no one should view it as, oh, this is meant to be a documentary to show the world about this experience. This is one individual's very insane story and told in a very stylized kind of way. I mean, the movie is heavily stylized as well. I think what's interesting that people don't often talk about with Hedwig is, yes, Hedwig. When we learn about her journey, starting as Hansel, slip of a girly boy, Hansel is sort of being told by others who he is before Hansel can ever really figure out who he is. And then. And that takes many twists and turns before even the botched surgery, Hansel is getting kind of coerced into drag by Luther. That is. It's. I mean, it's in just that brief line in. In Sugar Daddy. But the. You know, I thought it would be really hot if you put on a dresser or something like that and then some of the high heels. And while Hansel kind of laughs it off, Hansel, it's implied Hansel does do it, mostly because Hansel is trying to please Luther under the misapprehension that they are their other half. And then when they have the surgery that gets botched, they move to the States and a year later, Luther leaves them. Hedwig could, technically speaking, go back to presenting as Hansel. No. 1. You. Most of us, Preston there. I'm sure there's people out there in the world. Most of us don't walk down the street with our junk out for everyone to see. We usually wear a pant or a skirt. It's usually a little cover, just, you.
- [65:16]
A
Know, a little bit. It's what separates.
- [65:19]
B
It's what separates us from deer and bears and dogs. And that'll end that alone.
- [65:26]
A
Three examples. So that alone.
- [65:29]
B
For those one. For those three things alone.
- [65:31]
A
But who's right here?
- [65:32]
B
And your little kid cat.
- [65:34]
A
But even she's covered in fur. I can't hear that. You're very modest.
- [65:37]
B
Okay, she's a modest girly. But. So what I mean is that Hedwig could, technically speaking, go back to presenting as Hansel, but doesn't.
- [65:46]
A
Yes.
- [65:46]
B
Sort of continues as Hedwig. And that's sort of what the purpose of Wig in a Box is. Is. It's the. It's the rolling with the punches in the. And the bracing, the new. And finding new facets to your identity that the show is kind of embracing the entire time of not really knowing who I am. And I'm. And so for now, I'm going to put this hat or this wig on to self identify as other people until I really know who I am. And that is why in the movie, especially, like, Hedwig's drag kind of gets more and more. Not cartoony, but, like, I don't know. How would you. How would you describe. You said you have thoughts on the movie, and we'll talk about the movie a little bit more. But, like, when you watch Hedwig's fashion journey and makeup journey through the movie, it's. It's. I find it very interesting. It gets more and more facade, in a way, I would say.
- [66:44]
A
Yeah, she's playing more into the character, you know, down to the fact that it's like merchandise, like her fans wear that she. That she is becoming to other people. And I think that. And then until she is stripped down entirely into, you know, very almost naked form of who she is. And I think that's the journey of the whole show, is her playing into many ways what other people want her to be, what they see her in, what they celebrate her as, what's easiest for them, what's most exciting for them to see her as, and how much she does and does interact with that. And I think the movie characterizes that in a fun way. Not in a fun way, but in a very clear way. And it's fun with her on the tires, with the fans, with the hairpiece being like, yeah, she's becoming and she's not having a terrible time is the thing. There's always something, it seems like, that she's able to find in herself to connect to the moment, but it's not full. And I think that that's what's so fascinating to me in terms of how people talk about Hedwig's gender in general, because a lot of people will be like, oh, she's always a man. She's always been a man. She just had this surgery. She was forced to xyz. And I don't see it that way. I think that she's meeting expectation. But I think that gender. How gender works in Hedwig is so unanswerable. And that's kind of a point of it down to the very foundation of Origin of Love and its lyrics and the point that it's making. I think, you know, we don't know what would have happened if. I mean, we know that Hedwig or Hansel tried on a camisole, and we don't know how Hansel had felt about that. And that's not expressed. We don't know how Hedwig would have felt if the surgery had gone differently. But a very trans experience is being forced to be a gender that you're not comfortable with. So being, you know, forced into being a CIS woman, as Luther was trying to make Hedwig was not comfortable for her. But it doesn't mean that she. This is the way that people talk about gender. It doesn't mean that she. He's a man. Maybe she is like, maybe that's the journey, but it's just so much more complicated than that. And I do think it's a reflection of her always trying to meet or always being forced to meet other people's expectations.
- [69:00]
B
Yeah. Yeah. No, that's. That's. I think that's exactly it with. With. With Hedwig. And. Sorry, I was trying to think you're you. As you were saying something, I had a thought and I was like, I gotta remember this, but I need to listen to everything Preston's saying. And then I just started listening too much to what you were saying.
- [69:17]
A
And then I forgot.
- [69:18]
B
And then I forgot the.
- [69:20]
A
God damn it.
- [69:21]
B
No. It's also important to know that the reason why Hedwig gets the surgery is because Hedwig lives in communist Germany, eastern Germany, and Luther is an American GI who falls for Hansel and then slowly starts to chorus Hansel into cisgender female roles, trying on dresses and wanting to marry Hansel. Now, clearly, you know, Hansel living in. In Germany doesn't really understand that in the outside world, as a man, that marriage isn't happening in 1988. There's just. There's not a single country where that can happen. So when Lloyd Luther says to Hansel's, I have to marry you here in Germany, which means. Means a full Body inspection. And we. I can only marry you and get you out of Germany if your passport says you're a woman. So Hansel adopts his mother's name and steals her passport and has to get the surgery for the inspection. And so it's not as if Luther and Hansel's mother is like, so we've decided you're a woman and you will get a surgery that will address you as such. It was out of a necessity to get out. And then, and then the, the dramatic tragedy is a year later, Hedwig is in Kansas, abandoned by Luther, who has left Hedwig for a man. Or the. The movie implies it's another very young man, another girly boy, because. And it's entirely possible that Luther has his own hang ups that he hasn't really fully addressed, that he only can be with. He can only be with men who remind him of women because he likes the parts, but he doesn't want to think of himself as gay. That's me doing a whole dissertation on Luther, who never appears in the actual stage show and has all of 90 seconds of screen time in the film. But the moment Luther leaves, Hedwig is informed that the Berlin Wall has come down and that there is now freedom in Germany. And if he had waited one year, he wouldn't have had to gone through any of this. And again that. But. And that is when we go into Wig in a Box. And rather than the anger, rather than the I'm going to go back to who I was and what I know it is more of, I'm kind of going further down this path and I am, I am now officially Hedwig and I will be referred to as such. And it's, it's a very, it's a very interesting character study. This is one of those shows that does not give you everything. It gives you enough to understand the context of a lot of the major choices, but does not give you everything. And that's important because if they did, it just would lead to more questions and more anger and more, more fights rather than debates. And the show as written, I think actually is a perfect fodder for debate. People who want to fight about it can do that all they want. I will not be partaking in fights. I will only be partaking in conversations and debates.
- [72:27]
A
But that's. I will partake in the fights. That's what I love. And that's what's complicated to me about the movie and what I love about the show is I think it actually like, like there is so much it literally can't give you. Because these are unverbalizable things in a lot of ways. Even with all the language we have now and all the visibility we have now, you know, the show starts with being, like, top and bottom, you know, east and west, man and woman. And kind of the whole thesis of the show to me is that it's this. This swirl from the beginning of, you know, the sun and the moon and the stars and the sky. Like, it's just. It's everything. It's everything at once. It's not black and white. It's not two things. We're not one or the other. We're all of it. And I think that moment at the end of the show as Tommy Hedwig, kind of Face off, whatever that is, whatever that means to me, says so much without saying it and so much that Hedwig's not been able to say. And what I love about the show that we lose in the movie is that Hedwig. It's up to Hedwig. Hedwig is the narrator. And it probably didn't go as clean as Hedwig describes. And the quips may not have been there, and the comebacks may not have been there. And the power that we see her have, as much as she can in a lot of these circumstances, may not have been there. And I love her as this kind of unreliable narrator who's trying to take these really complicated moments and maybe deliver them in the way that she wished she'd responded to them, or the things maybe she wants to remember herself as saying and in the movie, to actually visualize those moments. Take some of what I love as a narrator from me, and my experience is automatic, but, like, that experience of thinking that the show is her, crafting her version of this, what she wants it to be her. And so seeing it all come to life and seeing those flashbacks and seeing those other moments take. Yeah, like, I don't wanna know more, actually, than the show. I think the show is so perfectly crafted that I don't need the behind the scenes. I don't want the behind the scenes. Cause she is a character who's very capable of doing and saying and being very upsetting. And it's not that I can't track that or that I'm not interested in seeing that. It's that, like, her relationship with Yitzhak, I wanna see exactly what the show shows me. I don't need to see her be an abusive partner behind the scenes as well. And so that's what I think the magic of the show is. And the magic of. Exactly. I think what you're describing is. Which is like. Yeah, like, we. We get to know what we get to know, and that is the point of it. Like, we don't get to know more. We get to know how she wants to remember it and how she wants to tell it to us, and we can tell there's a lot more going on. But she's driving this car and. Well, not that other one. Not the one that she. I mean, she had. Implies she killed a bunch of school kids. And we're like, okay, well, she.
- [75:21]
B
Well, in the movie, she is driving. In the show, we are told that Tommy's driving.
- [75:27]
A
Yes.
- [75:27]
B
And so. Yes, because it's. It's the wording of. So the. I. That's. The other thing is, in the show, everything that happens in the movie has already happened in the show. And we are seeing Hedwig sort of try to profit off of this scandal, which is the idea that Tommy Gnosis has become this major, major rock star and. And reconnects with Hedwig. I don't remember in the show if they ever explain how they reconnected. The movie shows you the scene, but in the show, I can't recall if they tell you if Hedwig explains how Tommy and Hedwig ended up in that card together. Because as far as we.
- [76:14]
A
It's the same kind. I think it's like he pulled up in a limo and saw that kind of thing.
- [76:17]
B
Yeah, I'm sure that's absolutely true. I just. I have. I can't remember in my head in the libretto of the show if they have that passage. I'm sure that they do. But, yes, that after Tommy steals the songs and becomes a big rock star, Hedwig, you know, sort of down and out, is doing sex work in the meatpacking district. Tommy pulls up in a limo, and they get in the car, and to quote Hedwig, there then becomes a major scandal, which is, yes, he was driving that car. He was on blow. He was getting blown by yours truly. Yes, he did hit that school bus full of deaf children. One survived. Now blind. Now blind. And that led to a giant media scandal which gave a spotlight on Hedwig, who is now using that as a means to, you know, get their career going. Whereas in the movie, we are watching Hedwig sort of stalk Tommy shows, and the scandal has not happened yet. And everything culminates in the third act with the scandal, which then propels Hedwig's career And Tommy's career tanks in the show. Tommy's career actually kind of is fine. It survives. Like, he. Tommy's going on this tour for sort of image rehabilitation. And that's why Hedwig is sort of stalking, as a way of going, like, you don't get to erase me from your narrative. And that is even more painful than Tommy saying slanderous things like the. It is a greater betrayal to be ignored and erased than it is to be slandered, I would say, because to be slandered is to at least acknowledge that you exist. To be ignored is to say you matter too little for me to even say anything. I would rather just pretend you're not there.
- [77:58]
A
Yeah. And that's what I love about. I mean, there is one thing about the movie with Tommy that I do that did unlock another avenue of questioning that I found very fascinating. But that's what I love about the show, is the containedness, the unreliability, the specific breakdown over one evening in relationship to the fact that he is right there, and every time she opens that door, he's fucking her over. And the idea that we can't really know if the Wicked Little Town reprise, which is to those who are unfamiliar, like a song that they had written together and the words have now been changed. The words have been rewritten to kind of. It kind of reads as an apology and an understanding of Hedwig that wasn't previously there. But we don't know if that's true because she is. So. It's unclear. She's unreliable. She's had this breakdown. Is that actually his moment of reconciling with her? Is this actually a moment that when she opens the door, he does acknowledge her, or is this what she wants to have happened? I think so much of the show is what she wants to have happened. And I really. I. I appreciate from both angles, but one of them feels so, like, impossible almost, that he would see her in that way. And I think. I don't know. That's why I gravitate towards that. But what I did really appreciate in the movie is I think watching it be a different actor, which. This is where I'm like, I don't know that it's helpful overall to the story, but watching it be a different actor, I think there, to me, it felt like, oh, there's some envy here. There's some. Which is true of the play as well, but, like, there's some gender envy here. There's looking at this other person who's. Who you maybe could who reflects you or your experience in so many ways and going, God, like, what if I was that person? What if I'd had that journey? What if that was my body? What if this was my experience? What if that was my xyz? And so I felt like the movie captures that gender envy angle more than the show can.
- [79:58]
B
I think the movie also, by having it be a different actor playing Tommy. What you lose is the theme of. Of the two halves becoming whole, of Tommy thematically being another side to Hedwig and having them sort of merge in the end, like they do on stage, in a way you can only really do on stage. What you gain, though, is the otherness and the distance, as you said, like, between the world of Hedwig and the world of Tommy. And you get an even deeper, darker, more painful sense of the. The appropriation of Tommy finding success from all of the knowledge and the work that Hedwig has done on him. John Cameron Mitchell said this in an interview I was listening to about how people kind of misidentify what appropriation is. Not that it doesn't exist, it exists, but that there's a difference between honoring and stealing or finding inspiration from and stealing. And people can be inspired by something and find their own take on it or. Or love something so much they want to hon right to fully take another person's work or another person's identity and apply it to yourself as if nothing ever existed there before. It's always been you. That is, in John Cameron Mitchell's words, that is the appropriation. And that is what Tommy does. It is not, oh, you inspired me. It's not, I want to honor you. It's no, I'm taking this from you and it's me now. And I think that is very clear in the movie, especially in that finale right before Midnight Radio when it. The way it's shot of. They are in the exact same aesthetic. They look like maybe not twins, but like brothers. And they are so far apart from each other. And it is. We are so similar and so far apart. I agree with you. I think there are things that you lose from the show. Like you do lose some of the unreliable narrator ideals of Hedwig. Do you think that Hedwig in the show is lying or withholding some truths?
- [82:05]
A
I don't even think that it's. That she's doing either. I think she presents things a lot of times in a way that gives her more of a firm position than she maybe had in the actual circumstance, or that gives her more control over A moment. Because, you know, I think a moment of it that I feel that way or that it particularly came to a head watching the rewatching the film was when, you know, she says, then love the front of me. And it's presented so clearly. And I love that moment. I think it's like just such a powerful moment of the piece. Of course, uncontroversially, I'm sure, but, like, when she says that to Tomi, it feels, like, so clean and so well thought out and so clear. And maybe it was, like, maybe it was. But in the show, it just feels like I never thought about her as actually saying that, but just wanting that so much. And. And so I think what she actually said and I'. She have that much clarity? Would she have that much, not even awareness, but in the moment to be so upset about something and this is a few moments where, like, so upset and so hurt and say something so clear and so powerful, or is that just what she wished she'd said or what she now knows she felt or what she'd put together? And I like those questions. I like the not knowing of it, and I like her creating it for herself as she needed to feel it. Which, no matter what with the show, is what's happening. Even if it was what's happening, even if it wasn't, I guess, word for word, everything that happened, there's just no way. There's just no way this character's recounting it perfectly. I just think we all wish we'd said things so clearly and so succinctly and that meant so much to us in the moment that we didn't all necessarily say. And the movie. Walking that back made me a little.
- [83:49]
B
Like, well, yeah, I think that's just a casualty of the movie having to be a movie. Right. And I don't think there's any way in which they could properly address that and still work. But so that's. Yeah, that's sort of like you have to kill a couple of your darlings in order to get a new medium done. But I hear you. I think if I were to argue that it is what happened, it would be just under the guise of. If there's one thing that Hedwig has a gift for other than, you know, an insane knowledge of rock and music. Hedwig has a penchant for words and is so articulate in a way that. That I could imagine a world in which she did say all those things in the times when she said them. Now, it's also something to Be reminded of that. As far as we know, this is not the first concert that Hedwig has given. We don't know how long it's been going on. And sure, you could do a production where you tell the actors, this is the first stint of Hedwig stalking Tommy on these tours, and it ends up being too much. And that's why we devolve into this madness at the end. Or it could be. Be. This has been going on for six months. And over the course of these six months, while the stories are true, the details have gotten refined over the nights because Hedwig has learned what has the better punchline and which parts of the story are more interesting to people. So it's not that as. As you were saying, it's not that she's lying. It's that she's refined it into being a story and it's no longer just simply the truth.
- [85:19]
A
Yes. And on top of that, I know we want to maybe decide maybe not talk about the revival right in this moment, but I think that something that is so fascinating about that exact thing is that at what point is she telling this? That having seen the revival so much, which is so presented as a one night thing, you're like, this is her time to do it. The revival presents it as, this is the moment she's gonna do it. And so that's the lens through which I watched it so much, but then revisiting. And that's why I'm like, oh, you know, a lot of it's off the cuff. A lot of it's her recreating these things that happened so long ago. Could it possibly have happened that way? You know, is this fantasy? Is this reality? And I love those questions. But then watching John do it again in the Belasco, especially kind of revisiting Jane street and the film all these years later, it felt kind of like very Hadestap to me. And John goes off the rails. That show is 10 minutes longer, just saying and everything. And it's all comedy. John's not improvising. Deep, dark moments. And at one point I was like, wow, this is wild. These things are wild. But it always has to come back to that same place. It always has to break down at that one moment and be this revisitation of no matter what, no matter how hard she tries to. To comedy her way out of it or deflect her way out of it, it's always gonna come down to Exquisite Corpse, and it's always gonna be. It's always gonna, you know, break her heart again. And it's always gonna break her down again. And then it's always going to teach her this really important thing again. But watching it through that angle was so wild. Just cause I'd never stacked them up like that to be able to revisit everything. Not that I'm promoting the watching of bootlegs that are all available on youtub person that's ever played Hedwig, but. But that's where I get. I think that's where the movie just this rewatch thing sat a little differently with me was watching all of these versions of how Hedwig tells it in this moment. So then to watch the movie be like, this is the moment. I was like, no, wait, no, wait. I always want to watch someone else be like. And we tell it again. It's. It's always the same story, but we tell it again. Hedwig is my Hadestown that I just. I love. I think that's what's. Oh my angel. I love that's what's. So that's my cat for all. I think that's what I love about. I love about the show. I think it's so alive. It's not that I don't like the movie. There's a lot about the movie that is charming and if it was my access Point, I think I certainly would have enjoyed it. But I think I would want a million Hedwigs doing that one night performance that's presented as, you know, this is the night we have to do it. And just see how each of them revisits moments differently. Even how John revisits moments differently. Cause I think it's just the way we remember things and the way we see ourselves and our memories is a character in the play.
- [88:34]
B
To me, I. I do love the movie and I would probably. No, I wouldn't probably. I definitely rank it in the top five best film adaptations of a stage musical. My top five for everyone who has forgotten are in no particular order of ranking, just they are the five for me. Hedwig, Chicago, Little Shop of Horrors, Sound of Music and Oliver. I think those five are golden tier. Oliver of those five is the one where I'm like, oh, you took a mediocre show and you made gold. Because I. Yeah, not a hot take. I think all over the stage show is mediocre and the movie is such an improvement. But that's to say, I have a lot of stuff I want to say about the movie, but. And we will talk about all that in part two, which I think this is a great moment to wrap things up for part one of Broadway Breakdown. So with your permission, Preston, I would just like to say that it. That this is it for this episode of Broadway Breakdown. You will stay tuned next week for Hedvig and Zancar Inch Part two. If you haven't yet, make sure to join the Discord Channel. Chat with our other listeners on all things. If you want more of me, your host, Matt Koblick, you can follow me on Instagram. Matt Koblek, Usual spelling. Preston, where can the listeners find you if you want them to find you?
- [89:45]
A
Oh, only PrestonMax Allen on Instagram these days. But very, very posting a lot so you. It won't feel gone.
- [89:54]
B
It's. I'll say. It's. It's. It's good stuff. Preston posts good stuff. You can also join the Broadway Breakdown substack where you will get exclusive written and video content from myself. All right, this is where we are now. What diva would you like to close us out with for part one of Hedwig and the Angry Inch? Preston doesn't have to be Hedwig related. Can be any diva you want.
- [90:16]
A
I really thought about this in terms of, like, divas who me imagining them playing Hedwig is really great. And my first one for this week is Donna Murphy.
- [90:29]
B
Cause the Edwin Druid of it all.
- [90:31]
A
I've never seen Edwin Drood, actually, but now I have to.
- [90:36]
B
She did it. She did Edwin Drood. She did the drag.
- [90:39]
A
Well, now I have my assignment. And you have your assignment of sitting with your eyes closed and imagining Donna Murphy playing head with.
- [90:47]
B
Here we go. Go. That's what it is. All right. Thanks for stopping by, friend. We will see you soon enough. Take it away, Dana.
- [90:53]
A
Bye.