Deep Dive: HEDWIG AND THE ANGRY INCH (Part 2) w/ Preston Max Allen

Summary

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Broadway Breakdown – Deep Dive: HEDWIG AND THE ANGRY INCH (Part 2)

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Preston Max Allen
Date: October 30, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this lively and deeply felt installment, Matt and playwright/performer Preston Max Allen continue their "Matt’s Picks" series with a deep dive into the cultural, emotional, and musical intricacies of HEDWIG AND THE ANGRY INCH. The conversation tackles everything from favorite songs to the show's evolving subtext, the dynamics of Hedwig and Yitzhak, its legacy and ongoing challenges, and colorful tales of various Hedwig interpreters. Fierce opinions, witty exchanges, and thoughtful analysis abound.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Favorite Songs & Emotional Resonance (02:03–07:12)

• Hedwig's Score as "Ironclad"

  • Matt and Preston agree the show is a no-skips, musically perfect score.
  • Preston’s Favorite: "Midnight Radio," especially for its cathartic, communal power.
    “I would go back to the show just to, like, experience ‘Midnight Radio’...” (02:32)
  • Matt’s Favorite: "Wicked Little Town" and "Wig in a Box." Matt highlights the emotional ambiguity in "Wicked Little Town."
    “The intro begins, and I am levitating to a safe space... it wraps me up in.” (03:30)

• On Finale Songs

  • Markedly not a "We solved bigotry" ending; "Midnight Radio" advocates self-lifting rather than communal utopia.
  • “It’s telling that the words aren’t ‘let’s all hold hands.’ It’s ‘lift up your hands.’” – Matt (06:51)

"Origin of Love": Story Song as Thematic Root (08:12–14:55)

• The Myth & Its Adaptation
  • Preston explains it's rooted in the tale told by Hedwig’s mother, then "retracted" – as per Plato's Symposium.
  • Matt expands on the source: Aristophanes's speech about humans severed by the gods, searching for their other half.
    • “What we call love is just our severed selves trying to find our... daisy to our Violet, so to speak.” – Matt (10:10)
• Ambiguity & Self-Realization
  • Both agree the central journey shifts from searching for an external soulmate to finding acceptance within oneself.
  • Preston insightfully reframes the question:
    “What if the other half is just this severed connection we need to access within ourselves?” (13:24)

Soulmates, Wholeness, and Personal Parallel (16:02–22:08)

• Poetry vs. Reality

  • Preston values deep friendships and self-relationship over romantic completion.
  • Matt candidly recounts his own journey learning that fulfillment can’t come from others without personal work.

• Projection & Disappointment

  • Broad agreement that longing for wholeness via another (romantic or otherwise) is a universal, sometimes unproductive, compulsion.

Yitzhak: The Overlooked Heart (22:08–34:33)

• Yitzhak’s Role and Suffering
  • Preston describes Yitzhak as a “drag queen... incredibly talented” whom Hedwig brings along with controlling conditions (can’t perform drag).
  • The dynamic mirrors the cycle of abuse: “Hurt people, hurt people.” – Preston (26:41)
  • Both lament how Yitzhak absorbs Hedwig’s damage, with Matt emphasizing the imbalance:
    “For every time that Yitzhak brings a knife to the fight, Hedwig brings a gun.” (28:01)
• Stage vs. Movie Portrayal
  • The film’s Yitzhak is a bit role, with jokes (like the “Rent cruise in Guam”) undercutting their pathos.
  • Preston: “It does a disservice to Yitzhak by making this very serious kind of thing into a bit.” (29:57)

Memory, Narrative Unreliability, and Hedwig’s History (34:33–45:41)

• Memory as Performance

  • On stage, the history between Hedwig and Yitzhak is all tension and subtext; the movie spells too much out.
  • Matt admires the film’s use of actor/child shifts as a rendering of self-perception and fractured memory:
    “We tend to look at that as, oh, that happened to a character that I used to know. That didn’t happen to me… but it is still you.” (37:00)

• Hedwig’s Childhood and Family Trauma

  • Deep exploration of ambiguous moments—did Hansel’s father abuse him, or is it a projection of adult anxieties?
  • Both agree: memory’s unreliability is key, especially in reconstructing traumatic pasts via present-day self-understanding.

The Broadway Revival: Successes, Choices, and Casting (45:43–54:36)

• Adapting Small-Scale Punk to Broadway
  • Both praise how the Neil Patrick Harris-led revival (2014) contextualized the set within a fictional bombed musical ("The Hurt Locker").
  • Matt: “Yes, we have this money on stage. It’s not our money. Someone else put up the money.”
• Lead Performers
  • Neil Patrick Harris was polished and exciting, but Michael C. Hall brought a singular “German” authenticity.
    “Of all the other Broadway Hedwigs, John Cameron Mitchell excepted, [Michael C. Hall’s] the one that feels the most German.” (52:49)
  • The show needs more than technical professionalism; true Hedwigs bring surprise and depth.

Dream Casting & Interpretation (65:33–69:03)

• Preston fantasizes about drag artists and pop singers (Marcia Marcia Marcia, Nicole Scherzinger) tackling Hedwig; Matt argues for continual gender-exploring casting. They note historic and rumored actors (Alan Cumming, Adam Lambert) and muse on the possibilities.
  • “If I could play a video game called ‘Other People Play Hedwig’...” – Preston (68:40)

The Broader Legacy & Ongoing Relevance (58:09–64:54)

• A Show for Outsiders and the Introspective
  • Hedwig’s blend of the universal and the idiosyncratic keeps it magnetic.
  • Preston underscores a modern challenge: with changing discourse around trans identities, new revivals may provoke misreading or backlash, but the show’s specificity and honesty remain powerful.
  • Matt: “Just because the waters are choppy, doesn’t mean they’re not worth swimming in.” (60:08)
• Durability Through Nuance
  • Hedwig survives because it refuses to give “stupidly obvious” or “gloatingly vague” answers.
  • “Despite the changing of times, despite the backlash, Hedwig keeps enduring—like the character herself.” – Matt (65:04)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The best stuff kind of just spews out sometimes—not often. The best stuff’s not often spewing out.” – Preston Max Allen (03:16)
• “A soulmate wouldn’t treat you that way.... For me, it feels better to be more practical and to interrogate things.” – Preston (16:27)
• “Hedwig is the person who makes Hedwig whole.” – Preston (05:51)
• “Just because the waters are choppy doesn’t mean they’re not worth swimming in, you know what I mean?” – Matt Koplik (60:08)
• “Hedwig is a fascinating, rich character—not always a likable one. I’d argue the best characters are not always likable.” – Matt (28:01)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Topic | |---------|-----------------------------------------------------| | 02:03 | Favorite songs and performance anecdotes | | 04:35 | "Wicked Little Town"—reprise and lyric meaning | | 08:12 | "Origin of Love"—myth, lyrics, and interpretations | | 16:02 | Notions of wholeness, soulmates, and individuality | | 22:08 | Yitzhak: history, staging, and abuse | | 34:33 | Yitzhak in the film—comedy vs. trauma | | 37:00 | Memory, narrative, and unreliable self-story | | 45:43 | Broadway revival: adaptation, context, and casting | | 52:49 | Michael C. Hall, other notable Hedwigs | | 58:09 | Hedwig’s legacy and contemporary context | | 65:33 | Dream casting and speculative Hedwigs |

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Tone and Style

The episode is bold, passionate, sharp, and deeply personal—Matt and Preston’s banter is full of both reverence for Hedwig’s artistry and irreverence for Broadway tropes. Expect frank, sometimes profane honesty and heartfelt insights. The vibe is as much late-night cabaret as academic symposium—very “Broadway Breakdown.”

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Closing Thoughts

Matt and Preston argue that HEDWIG’s staying power lies in its refusal to provide easy answers, its warts-and-all compassion, and a pulsating rock score. They acknowledge audience interpretation evolves with the culture (and the news cycle), but the show’s emotional realism—loving yourself, reclaiming your narrative, and pushing through ambiguity—keeps Hedwig as relevant (and as raw) as ever.

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Ending Diva: Eva Noblezada – a “future Broadway diva” who gets a loving shoutout as inspiration for the next generation.

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For more, join the Broadway Breakdown Substack or Discord.
Next episode coming soon—take it away, Eva!

Transcript

[Preston Max Allen]

Hurricanes and rain Black and cloudy skies.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Matt's Picks, and it is covering shows that you submitted that I did not pick out of a bowl for grab bag, but wanted to cover anyway. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And we are back with. With part two of Hedwig and the Angry Inch, which means, unfortunately, we are back with Preston Max Allen. Hi, Preston Max Allen. Cancel ed.

[Preston Max Allen]

That was me booing myself, not your beautiful podcast.

[Matt Koplik]

Please, please. Here's the thing. Press down. At this point, my introduction is a lie, because I am not the least famous and most opinionated. I am the mid opinionated mid famous of all the Broadway podcast hosts.

[Preston Max Allen]

That's. I think that's very exciting. You're the most famous podcast host to me.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you very much. And you know a lot of people.

[Preston Max Allen]

I do. I. I don't. I don't know many podcast hosts, but a lot of people.

[Matt Koplik]

When I. When I think. When I think of you, I think of Ron Burgundy and Anchorman going, I'm kind of a big deal. People know me.

[Preston Max Allen]

People do often put me and Ron Burgundy together.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, you both do an amazing cannonball, am I right? And you have. You referred to me as Tits McGee on numerous occasions.

[Preston Max Allen]

That is true. I can't stop. HR is involved.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. So last we spoke, we were talking. We did a lot of talking on the character of Hedwig and the piece and the origins of it and the performances of it. I would love to talk a little bit more about other performances as we talk about the revival, but before we do any of that, you know, what we did not do at all was talk about the songs, specifically of Hedwig. We talked about the importance of them, what the score does well in general. And we've, like, referred to some pieces, but, like, do you have a favorite one in this show, Preston?

[Preston Max Allen]

Well, famously, I have sung Origin of Love several times at piano karaoke at Elixir in Andersonville in Chicago. A sacred space for me. But I think Midnight Radio is the one that spoke to me the most when I was seeing it. And kind of like, I would go back to the show just to, like, experience Midnight Radio, which is the last.

[Matt Koplik]

Song ever written for the score, which.

[Preston Max Allen]

Was almost not in it. And thankfully, it was.

[Matt Koplik]

What was the original finale. Can you Tell the listeners, was it you?

[Preston Max Allen]

Light up My Life. But in German.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure was a. And they couldn't. They couldn't get the rights to it. And Stephen basically wrote midnight radio in 24, 48 hours, something like that.

[Preston Max Allen]

The best stuff kind of just spews out sometimes, not often. The best stuff's not often spewing out.

[Matt Koplik]

But sometimes I would say someone has seen me when I've had a stomach bug. Because, yes, the best stuff did just spew out of me.

[Preston Max Allen]

What is your. What is your favorite song?

[Matt Koplik]

You know, well, the only song I've ever sung publicly was Wig in a Box, which I. Which I used to sing for auditions from time to time when they're like, can you give us, like, a slightly rocky song? Like, I can give you musical theater rock. And I love that song. I think it's a great song. I think Wicked Little Town might be my favorite of the score. We're also. We're talking about a fucking ironclad score. I think that score is perfect. No skips. Yeah, no skips. But Wicked little Town. The intro begins, and I am levitating to a safe space that then the lyrics, it's not comforting, nor is it accusatory. It's just sort of this, like, blanket of realness that it wraps me up in. And I am both removed and confronting at the same time with that song. And I love it very much, which I want to come back to that eventually when we talk about the movie. But, yeah, that's my favorite, is Wicked Little Town.

[Preston Max Allen]

How do you feel about the emotional and thematic flip that the reprise takes?

[Matt Koplik]

I agree with what you said in part one, which is the question of is, are these words that Tommy has rewritten in his career as sort of a subliminal message to Hedwig of I recognize and I'm sorry? Or is this something that Hedwig has made up in her own consciousness in order to make peace with that chapter of her life, which is Tommy. And I view it as the latter. I never really knew what to make of the new lyrics. When I saw the movie and when I even saw the revival, I think I always just kind of was taken in by the visual of what was going on. And I wasn't really listening to the words classic me. And, yeah, I, I, I. That that's sort of what I've always viewed it as. And I think it makes sense and is meaningful that way because it is catharsis and it is healing that Hedwig chooses to do rather than waiting for the words to be said to her from somebody else, waiting for somebody else to do the work to allow her to heal. She kind of once again has to do the work on herself to heal. So that's what I make of it. What do you make of it?

[Preston Max Allen]

No, very, very. That I think the whole idea of does another person whole or do we make us whole? And I like that the, you know, she has this idea of, oh, Tommy is. Tommy is the person. Tommy is my other half, my missing part. And then, you know, it becomes so unclear what's. What is going on, but what is a thousand percent clear is Hedwig is the person who makes Hedwig whole. And so I really like the lyrics from that perspective of she has reexamined them. Whether or not she knows it's her or she's experiencing it as a fantasy of Tommy or as a vision of Tommy. I really like that they kind of compliment this idea of it's not fate, it's not luck. It's like you and then that going into midnight radio and be like and celebrate you and love the complicated parts. Love the quirky, weird, freak parts of you.

[Matt Koplik]

I think it's telling that the words aren't let's all hold hands. It's lift up your hands.

[Preston Max Allen]

Yes. I love to talk about finales that are non resolvent and very and that say one thing that is achievable and not, we solved bigotry.

[Matt Koplik]

We did it.

[Preston Max Allen]

There's a lot of we solved bigotry finales in musical theater.

[Matt Koplik]

Have we not discussed the finale of the Pirates of Penzance revival? Preston, that was a great one, but.

[Preston Max Allen]

At least that was pirates. Exclamation point. A Penzance musical. And not, with all due respect, to randomly attack a musical, but like the Proms, we solved homophobia in Indiana, but rather this is pirates. Exclamation point.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure, sure. Listeners just know that I make fun of that finale a lot with Pirates because the whole finale is just like, we're all from different places. It is literally Cartman's improv song in the Ginger Kids episode. But for 10 minutes, hand in hand, we can live together. Ginger or not. It's all the same. We shouldn't.

[Preston Max Allen]

Yes, I had my mouth was a gape for a lot of that revival. But also I had taken like the perfect edible and I had the best time of my life. I was like, yeah, why not? And then, you know, if I want a searing emotional finale, I'll listen to Hair, you know?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, let that sunshine in now, Preston, I think that's a good entry for me to talk about the Origin of Love, which is. I wouldn't say it's like, the breakout hit of Hedwig. I would argue probably Wicked Little Town is which is. It makes sense, then, that I would love that one the most because I just. That's one that I feel like gets covered a lot in a lot of, like, audition books, and it's one that I feel like a lot of people do in concert. It's just like. It's. It's very. It stands alone pretty easily in a way that, like, Tear Me down doesn't. Or Wicked A Box doesn't. But Origin of Love, I feel like, is the song that roots the whole show.

[Preston Max Allen]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And is really the only story song because it's the only one that isn't reflective of Hedwig's journey so much as it's, like, the catalyst for Hedwig's journey. But let's put that stuff aside for a second. Just talk about sort of what this song is. What. What is this song about?

[Preston Max Allen]

It's a story that Hedwig's mom told him and then retracted. That's one of my favorite. That's one of my favorite lines that it was retracted. How does it even work? It is from the Symposium. From Plato's Symposium. Correct. You're gonna have to. I have not read it, so you're gonna have to speak more on that.

[Matt Koplik]

You think that I've read all of Plato's Symposium?

[Preston Max Allen]

I don't know how deep you go into the dramaturgy of these podcasts, but it's about the story of basically how human beings, in many ways were created by the God's wrath kind of tearing apart what was once a whole being that was. And I'm trying to, like, go through all of the lyrics in my mind. A man and man, woman and woman, man and woman, kind of severed as a punishment. And then we, you know, we wander the earth looking for the other half of us that was severed. Is the kind of grotesque version of that song.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So it's based off. So those of you who don't know what Plato's Symposium is, it is written text of speeches being made. Basically, it is a transcript of a bunch of TED Talks, is the best way I would describe it. All sort of focused on love. And it's different philosophers and writers and Socrates is in there, and Aristophanes speech is the one that the song the Origin of Love is based off of, which is everyone else is talking about the dynamics of love. And how to be loved and what it takes to, like, find love and have a healthy love. And Aristophanes is like, let me tell you how love came to be and is the only one, like, you know, goes to the. The. The birth of it and says what you said, which is that we all used to be two people as one. Man, man, woman, woman, man, woman. And Zeus severed that because it was simply too. There was too much equilibrium and too much independence. There was no reliance on the gods. Uh, there was just simply too much peace, and everyone was happy. And. And the lyric in the song is like, they knew nothing of love, and it was because they did not have necessity for it. And it was only once they were severed that love was born out of the search for that severed half. We call. We. What we call love is just our severed selves trying to find our. The daisy to our Violet, so to speak.

[Preston Max Allen]

Yes. Yes. Well, that's. Yes. And I think the way that that's interpreted throughout the show is so fabulous.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, because then Hedwig talks about what that search means and the questions that they have trying to find that other half. Because it's not just, I want to find love, but what of me was taken by my other half.

[Preston Max Allen]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

What am I missing?

[Preston Max Allen]

Yes. Yeah. I always think, did he run off with the good stuff?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Or. Or did I?

[Preston Max Allen]

Or did? Yeah. Everything surrounding that song is so exquisite because, a. The song's beautiful. I always. I hear people singing that one in the cabarets. So now I feel great about me going off the beaten path for my piano karaoke. So exquisite.

[Matt Koplik]

I want to know your people that are doing a cabaret. I feel like you're in cooler crowds than I am. Than I am.

[Preston Max Allen]

I don't know that that's true, but I will, for the sake of the crowds listening to it, say that it's true. They're all very cool. But I think it's, you know, it's obviously very. Is so well set up because it's between Hedwig or Hansel at that point and his mom and this moment of, like, intimacy they shared, telling this really powerful story and then retracting. And then to me, without screaming, this is the theme of the show. This is the journey of the show. It just is that. And Hedwig, you know, addresses that and talks about, is this my other half? You know, Oh, I think this is. But there's no blood on my eyes. There's no blood, you know, etc. And, like, it's not exactly the song is this but is this it? So it's clear that they're exploring that as kind of the base of the show. But then it's, to me, answered within the show, but not in the way we expect, but in a way that is so clear and that is so accessible to everyone and that everyone can interpret in their own way. And I think that is, to me, what was so meaningful about the show and why I went back so many times was because the way that she fulfills the question of that song, the journey of that song felt so personal, and I think it's so accessible in its ambiguity that, yeah, I think the show is like, oh, you're finding the other person, the other person, the other person, the other person. But then it's like, what if the other half is just this severed connection we need to access within ourselves? Like, what if it's just putting this back together within ourselves and we are our. Our own other half. If we can create that line of communication and that acceptance and that generosity, and especially looking at it like gender, because that's how it's laid out. You know, we embrace the feminine, the masculine, the outside of the in between, and then we are, and then we can begin to be whole. And it doesn't. You know, the question is not fully answered because Hedwig kind of, it seems, gathers that information and then walks off stage and we don't see what happens next. But to me, it just takes all of the pieces of that. All of the elements of that question and that story and places them all within our own heart. And isn't that so beautiful? But if you have a completely different interpretation, please share it.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know. The song was always a hard one for me to crack at first because it's such a story song and it is dealing with such biblical proportions, I will say, you know, it's dealing with gods, and it's dealing with creation and all this stuff. And it was always hard for me to connect with it as a song on its own. I mean, I've always loved listening to it again. Every song in this. In this score is perfectly crafted, but I really don't think. It wasn't until a handful of years ago that the depth and the feeling of that song finally registered with me. I was able to connect with it on a musical level. It's beautiful stuff, but sort of what it represents in general, as well as in a Hedwig story. Yeah, I think everything that you said is something that I didn't really crack until probably three years ago. And that Shows my own, you know, density.

[Preston Max Allen]

Come be transgender.

[Matt Koplik]

I. What's. What do you think of a soulmate or another half? Is that something that you think is poetry that we've unfortunately taken as fact, like the Bible, political? Or do you think that there is something to be said about finding a person that, you know, you connect with in that sort of very crazy level?

[Preston Max Allen]

God, are you gonna bill me for therapy after this? Matt?

[Matt Koplik]

I meet your therapist right now.

[Preston Max Allen]

I. As a chronically un. Relationship undating person, I guess I've had enough at this point in my life. Had enough, like, very close friendships and very close connections to people that are not, like, physical, that feel very fulfilling and feel very like, I'm so glad we found each other on this earth. So in terms of. Yeah. In terms of my life, I'm not searching the earth for this complimentary other half to myself. And I think this is why I feel so, like, I need Hedwig in some ways, as an arts consumer, because I'm still working on my relationship to myself and my relationship to my body and my gender experience and all of that, and finding peace within that, because no one else is gonna give me that peace. No one else can tell me anything that's gonna make that feel right. I have to put all those pieces together, and I think that that is something I feel very firmly, is I have to be the one to. To make myself feel. It's so cliche, like, you can't love until you love yourself. But I. I put aside the. You can't love until you love yourself and be like, no one can give you the love you need to give yourself. Yeah. Um, so I. I feel that very profoundly. That's where I'm at in life, and maybe that's why I interpret Hedwig so in the way that I do. But I. I think there's, you know, this moment where she's like, tommy is my soulmate. And then it's just so clear that, like, a soulmate wouldn't treat you that way. A soulmate wouldn't do those things to you. And I think, you know, for me, it feels better to be more practical and more interrogative of not everything but then than to use something like that and be like, oh, this is my person, and then give them parts of me that they weren't actually taken care of, because I wanted to believe in that so badly, which I don't fault anyone for doing. But, you know, I'm bombarded about it.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I think everyone has been guilty, slash guilty to slash Victim of projecting fulfillment onto a person or a thing or a place. If I move here, I will be happier. If I achieve this, I'll be happier. If I find if I love this person or they love me, I'll be happier. And I had my first, like, boyfriend, I guess I would say, late in life. I came out very young and then spent probably 13 years being very single. I had one very short term boyfriend in college and then I got like an actual boyfriend many years later. And while we loved each other, I realized, oh, I did not do enough work on myself to be in this relationship. Because in a lot of ways this person is great and I do love them, but I'm not happy. And it's because I. I spent so many years going like, gotta get a boyfriend, Gotta be in a relationship. Gotta do it, gotta do it and then get it. It doesn't do what I think it's gonna do for me. And it's because I did not work on. On LeMat. And so I. We did end up ending the relationship. And it's all good because he's married and happy now. Yay. Good for Adam. But not, Not Gunkle Adam. Everyone different Adam. But then I do all that work on myself. Find somebody else. It does not go great. And that was a case where I wasn't looking. I. I wasn't looking for someone to fulfill me or complete me. But I did have, in a lot of ways, it was like I kind of had my own Luther and then my own Tommy. I had the person where I was like, oh, yes, I have. I found someone who will complete me. It's all good. Oh, this didn't do it at all. Okay, I guess I gotta move on then. And then finding someone, you're like, oh, this is. We connect in such a way. Clearly this is kismet. It's meant to be. And you forget that if we are truly divided by Zeus and we are all halves looking for another hole, that means there's someone else. The person that we're looking for to complete us is also incomplete, is also broken in a lot of ways. They are. They don't have it figured out. And they will give you all of their wisdom or impart onto you all their, like, healedness. There's simply another broken person who you can sort of mend with together. And I have a lot of friends who have partners or husbands or wives. And they, so far, it seems they are. They've all been very fortunate that they have found someone that they like, that they love, who, you know, is broken in all the ways that are healthy and human and not toxic and painful. And sometimes it just comes down to that fortune. And someone like Hedwig has both the marriage of misfortune and lack of self actualization. There is. There is the incident. There are the incidents that lead to tragedy for Hedwig. And because of those, tragedy, that leads to a trauma that Hedwig is not willing to grapple with, which then leads to where she is now, which actually now leads me to. Want to talk a little bit about Yitzhak, who we have not really discussed in depth.

[Preston Max Allen]

I was gonna say we're getting into Yitzchak territory. It's hard to talk about this and not be like, oh, was the real soulmate the.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, yes, I think there's. I think there's an argument to be made for that for Yitzhak. Before we get into Yitzhak, let us take a quick break.

[Preston Max Allen]

Really, I beg to differ with you.

[Matt Koplik]

How do you mean?

[Preston Max Allen]

You're the top.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Preston Max Allen]

You're an arrow caller. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire.

[Matt Koplik]

And we back. So who is Yitzhak Preston?

[Preston Max Allen]

Um, Yitzhak is. I'm trying to figure out how to not say anything maybe offensive based on how they describe Yitzchak. Yitzchak is a drag queen that Hedwig had met many years ago who was incredibly talented. And basically, Hedwig was like, I will get you out of. Where was Hytoc living? Hedwig was basically like, come with me, and I will get you out of the situation you are currently in. And you'll be in my act, and I'll marry you. Only you can never perform as a drag queen again because you're more talented than me. And we'll figure out where. Because it's the most talented. I can remember the part where, like, Itzhak was known as the. The most.

[Matt Koplik]

Like Czechoslovakia or something like that.

[Preston Max Allen]

Like Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia somewhere. Yeah. And so basically, yes, Ishak is Hedwig's partner in many ways, technically husband, performance buddy, who Hedwig has clipped the wings off of, basically, and who follows Hedwig very dutifully. And however much that is affection and however much that is a necessity is. Is very Hedwig and Luther, one could say a little bit.

[Matt Koplik]

I think a lot of it. Yeah. And it also should be noted that Yitzhak is traditionally played by a female identifying performer to constantly blur the lines of gender. Miriam Shore originally at the Jane street, and then in the film, Lena hall, and then Rebecca Naomi Jones in the revival. It's unclear when exactly Yitzchak was met, because the. The. The narrative. Sorry, I was the. This. Yeah, no, the narrative. The. The. The timeline of Luther, Tommy, then Yitzhak, I suppose, is. Is a little unclear in terms of how much time has passed between Tommy leaving and becoming a superstar. Hedwig meeting Yitzhak and the. These concerts happening.

[Preston Max Allen]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And you could make an argument that it's been a year, a year and a half since the Tommy Hedwig, you know, storyline ended. And then Tommy goes off. And in that year and a half is when Tommy gets big, and in that year and a half is when Hedwig meets Yitzhak and they get married relatively quickly. And Yitzhak, unfortunately, then has to sign off on this stalkery tour. But, no, I think it is absolutely Luther coded, because Hedwig says to Yitzchak the same thing that Luther says to Hedwig when Hedwig is Hansel, which is, in order to be free, you have to leave a piece of yourself behind. And in Luther's case, he's literally talking about Hansel's penis, his bishop in a turtleneck. And Hedwig is referring to Yitzhak's talent and love of drag.

[Preston Max Allen]

Yes, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Says a wig can never touch your head again.

[Preston Max Allen]

Iona, Air rights was a great statement that was said in one of the performances. I don't think it's always in them.

[Matt Koplik]

But it was clearly John Cameron Mitchell had seen burlesque and was like, you know what? We're going to use air rights.

[Preston Max Allen]

Oh, it's not ha. Burlesque. I'm sure I missed that in my dramaturgy for Hedwig.

[Matt Koplik]

No, it's just my own theory, but because there's no logical reason why Yitzhak needs to give up drag in order to do with Hedwig. It is purely out of spite and control that Hedwig makes this stipulation and I think is an example of damaged people go out and then damage people. Yes. And is a reflection of, again, a lot of the trauma that Hedwig is not addressing. Just because Hedwig is talking about it doesn't mean that Hedwig is actually dealing with it.

[Preston Max Allen]

Yes. And when I said at the very start, weeks ago, maybe power is a coping mechanism, I think Yitzhak is the main culprit, is the main. The main victim of that, because Hedwig's abuse of Yitzchak is One of the very, like, damaging things I think about Yitzhak, Aya Hedwig's character, that's hard for me and I think many people to reconcile. Um, but yes, hurt people, hurt people, hurt people. And you can tell where it's coming from and why. But it is a fairly. It is to me.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Preston Max Allen]

The most damning thing about. About Hedwig. And no matter the fact that we can track where it's coming from, you just have this just sad, sad character on stage in the corner getting yelled at for 90 minutes.

[Matt Koplik]

Because all Yitzhak is guilty of is being talented and being there and. And willing to take it and. Or not willing, but is allowing it to happen so often and does fight back from time to time. You know, their. Their relationship is combative, and Yitzaga's not totally a doormat. They do bite back from time to time. It's just that Hedwig bites bigger, deeper, and meaner. Yes. And so for every time that Yitzhak brings a knife to the fight, Hedwig brings a gun. Like, it's. It's just always that. Every time. Yeah.

[Preston Max Allen]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

And again, as an example of that, Hedwig is a fascinating, rich character. Is not always a likable one. I would argue the best characters are not always likable. And in the movie, they add a whole, like, B plot line for you talk. That's really more of a. A joke, I would say, of Yitzhak, because they don't go into the. The history of their relationship when we. When the movie begins. They are together.

[Preston Max Allen]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And dealing with their issues. And Yitzhak then goes off and auditions for Broadway cruise line production of Rent that is touring Guam, which is classic Hedwig joke. Similar to the Communist gave mother a job teaching sculpture to limbless children. It's just that kind of bonker shit. But it's a. It's less for me. It's the make the plot line in the movie. It's less potent because Yitzhak is more sort of just. I don't know how it. How would you describe Yitzchak's role in the film? I feel like it's. It's. It's less. It's. It's less sad and less deep, even though he's constantly there.

[Preston Max Allen]

I don't. It's one of those things that I think is a victim of. Like, I only want to know that moment on stage between these two. Like, I. I think what. It's. They build so much. That's very honest. I think between These two characters in the stage show. And I think, like you said, it's. The Rent thing is like a joke. It's. It's. It's kind of dishonest that this. Maybe, maybe not. If someone told me they were going to be angel and Rent and a cruise ship in Guam, I guess I'd go, sure, congrats.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't want to. Dishonest because of the world of Hedwig in terms of the humor, but it is a weird. When I rewatched it for this podcast, I was like, oh, I forgot. And it's a funny detail, but it doesn't. Ultimately, I do think it does a disservice to Yitzhak.

[Preston Max Allen]

Yeah, I think it disservices Yitzhak by making this very serious kind of thing into a bit. A bit of Aha. There's no way around that. It's a bit of a. Haha. The situation of that tour. And then also just that side of viciousness of Hedwig that we haven't really seen where she, in the movie, rips up Yitzhak's passport. Um, and so I think it does two things that I'm like, I didn't. I don't think either of these things. Super. Helped me. Not that I wouldn't believe that Hedwig would rip up Yitzhak's passport, but it's just. That's a big thing to do. That's a horrible thing to do as someone who, if I lose my passport and have to get another one, will be. Could be misgendered, and it could create a lot of problems for me. So, like, I felt very tender about that moment, and it just felt especially vicious. So coming out of a moment that was kind of a bit. Sat wrong with me and my soul, and a disservice to Yizhak, who could have. Whose light, I think it was at the Balkans. Is Yitzhak from the Balkans? There's something. We have to Google it. There's a very.

[Matt Koplik]

You keep talking. I'm gonna look at this.

[Preston Max Allen]

I'll say this because I am Jewish, but she's known as, like, the. The most famous Jewess of, I think, the Balkans. There's like a. There's a term they keep using that involves Jewess, which I'm really even not sure I can say as a Jewish person. But let's lean into that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, let us do that, shall we? The drag queen Christina, a Jewish drag queen from Zagreb.

[Preston Max Allen]

Zagreb, yeah, Zagreb.

[Matt Koplik]

The city of Zagreb, which is in Croatia.

[Preston Max Allen]

Croatia. I don't Know where the Balkans. I don't know what the Balkans are. Take out every mention of me saying Balkans. If I was wrong about it, I sure shan't.

[Matt Koplik]

I sure shan't.

[Preston Max Allen]

Everything I said wasn't offensive. God, now I. Yes. Anyway, so much to unpack about Yitzhak as a Jewish drag queen from Zagreb. And making it all a bit to me is not helpful because it's a. It's a fascinating character. And. And the different interpretations of that character are really beautiful. And the capabilities of that performer are really usually very extraordinary. And if you were going to mine something from it, it seems not. Not the direction I would have taken. Everyone was asking me, when I was firmly nine years old to, like, enrich Hedwig's story so fully and create so much of a real world around Hedwig and then create. Not that around Yitzhak.

[Matt Koplik]

I think for me, while we are talking about this, I'm realizing on stage, the Yitzhak Hedwig dynamic has so much tension because there's so much. This is what you were saying in part one of, like, so much that's unsaid and unseen in the stage show. What you. But you can feel history and past. And not past numbers, but past encounters on stage without knowing the actual details. It's. It's similar. They say in horror. You know, you want to not show the audience as much as you can because what they imagine is usually than whatever you're going to come up with. And so we can imagine a lot of the fights and issues that they've had in the past. You feel it on stage without actually knowing the details. And in the movie, they give you a few too many details. And for a character that is, I would argue, more the bleeding heart of the show than Hedwig is because Hedwig is our protagonist and Hedwig is who, you know, it's all shaped around. But Yitzhak is sort of the innocent, the one that's, like, too pure for everything that's going on on this stage. And so. And. And that comes from us not getting a lot of opportunities to hear from Yitzhak. So in the movie, whenever we hear from Yitzhak, it's. It's. There's. The power dynamic is not really imbalanced in the movie like it is in the show. It's a little more like married couple squabbling and then. And then for their ticket out to be a Broadway cruise of Rent that's touring Guam. Again, that is a joke that makes sense in the world of Hedwig where these are the kind of jokes we make. So that makes sense to me. But it all just sort of. It's not that it's bad, it's just that of a movie that I do love. And again, I'm not taking it out of that top five. It's like the one thing that I would maybe say is like not a misstep, but like a misplacement because.

[Preston Max Allen]

And this I think speaks to what I was saying, which is like, if Hedwig had said that in the show that like Gitshak had turned down or whatever of this Broadway cruise ship of Guam, then I think probably you'd be like, that maybe wasn't what that gig was like. You'd be like, that's a joke. That maybe wasn't what that was. Who knows what it was? But in the movie it's literal. It's very literal. So I think that's where I'm like, those things kind of sprinkled throughout the movie where I'm like, but that's the charm of Hedwig is you're never quite sure what is real.

[Matt Koplik]

When is Hedwig just doing the theater of the ridiculous? The thing about the movie that I love is, and this is not a script thing, this is a stylization that John Cameron Mitchell as the director and I guess as the screenwriter has chosen to do, is the constant switching in and out of the young actor playing Hedwig as a child and. And John Kenron Mitchell as present day Hedwig in place. So, for example, when listening to American Forces Radio in the stove or the oven and moments like that, or, you know, having the angry inch show up during Wig in a Box, even though, yes, if we're being dramaturgically correct here, they would not be in that trailer park knowing Hedwig just yet. Hedwig has not formed the band yet, but it's I. I view it as a representation of how we view ourselves in the past and whether we have good experiences or bad experiences. Right. And which also, I think ties into identity and gender and transness of you. Are you through every stage of your life, what happened to you or who you were 20 years ago is still you. That doesn't mean you can't change, you can't grow, you can't evolve, and you can apologize for the things of the past. But we tend to look at that as, oh, that happened to a character that I used to know. That didn't happen to me. When people say, oh is another time for talking about Maybe something shady they did in the past.

[Preston Max Allen]

It's like, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, you were who you are in the context of the time you were in and the things surrounding you, but it is still you. That wasn't a different person. That was a. That was a different version of you 20 years ago. So let's tie it together. But I just love that the film is able to physically represent memory that way of. It's both me and yet it's someone I used to know.

[Preston Max Allen]

Yes. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Does that make sense? Yeah.

[Preston Max Allen]

No, it does. It does. And I think for me, I'm like. I look at the movie as kind of a separate thing.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Preston Max Allen]

Because I still enjoy. I'm firmly rooted in my how memory works in this concert element of it.

[Matt Koplik]

And part of that is because it was built as a stage show first, and thus everything is tied to that. So it's a reimagining for the film, but it is. It is something that you can't do on stage. That doesn't make the movie better than the show. It's just something that the movie does that I think very few movies do when it comes to memory. And I really enjoy that a great deal.

[Preston Max Allen]

Yes. And I. And I definitely, like, appreciate it. I think for me, again, like, especially thinking of one's younger self after a very complicated experience with Journey. With Gender. Journey. Gender. A gender journey. My drag name's gonna be Journey. Gender.

[Matt Koplik]

How wonderful. My drag name's gonna be Gender Journey.

[Preston Max Allen]

Oh, my gosh. We're gonna face off. We're gonna have to fight in an alley. But it's hard to remember or connect to that person. It very much seems like a character. And so I think that the inability to access the actual reality of who that child was and the ability to only really remember yourself through stories and to recreate it that we see on stage, and it's so powerful because to try to remember who you. And this is a little bit different for Hedwig because Hedwig is not certainly a binary trans person. Yeah. Like, when you are recreating the memories as who you are now, there's almost more of a connection to who you were back then versus seeing who you were back then. Yeah. Which I also think.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think that also ties into what you were saying, though, of the stage show of. Is everything Hedwig saying the truth? Not that it's a story that didn't happen, but is Hedwig maybe telling us things that she said? Because the person she is now would have said it then if she was that person, then.

[Preston Max Allen]

I think it really. I don't know. For childhood, we can't possibly remember what we said. We can't. Except for some of the. Okay, wait, I'm gonna walk this back a little bit in a way that's gonna sound like I'm retracting some of the things, and I'm not. But for Childs, what Hedwig recounts as a child sometimes feels like she's actually recounting moments that do. That she does really remember, that do really stand out to her with her mom, because she had so few of them. And I think that, to me, is. The difference is she had so few of these connected moments that she does maybe have more of a grip on what was said in those times. And I think that's. Yeah, that's where maybe. I feel like she's even more of a. More of a reliable narrative for her childhood self because there was so little there. And she was building who she was. And she was building who she was in relationship to, who was around her and the affection that they were showing it because she.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't.

[Preston Max Allen]

I don't think she told her dad, when I grow up, I'll kill you. I don't know. I don't think she said that. But, like, the things with her mom feel very honest to me. And I think, yeah, that's like, another thing I enjoy about the show versus the movie. And I can see the enjoyment of them vice versa. But for me, seeing how she reacts to something with this kind of vitriolic, you know, quip, like, she remembers with her. Like she recalls with her dad, that doesn't seem like she said it versus these quiet moments with her mom, that seems like maybe they were the actual exchanges. And seeing how she interprets these relationships through how sarcastic she is. Like, she definitely didn't say absolutely as a child, but, like, she remembers. I don't think she said, absolute power corrupts absolutely was probably not how she responded to that as a child, but she remembers that we feel the tenderness, I think, of that moment or the complicated tenderness of that moment, or she.

[Matt Koplik]

Was trying to be a good little baby boy to her mother at the time and just agreed with anything her mother said. The thing about the movie is they don't include the line about, you know, daddy, when I grow up, I'll kill you. They don't. They cut that. And what's interesting about the movie is we. There is a. There is a debate to be had about what exactly went down with Hedwig's father when hedwig was a boy. Yeah, because in the movie they show. There's. It's. It's two shots I said was, you know, who touched me the most? Was it my father? And it's a aerial shot of, you know, childe Hedwig, then Hansel in bed with his father. And they're not spooning because they're not touching, but they are sleeping in, you know, above the covers in bed, fully clothed, facing the wall, about a foot apart. And then Hedwig's mother comes in. And then we jump cut to Hedwig's mother kicking the dad out. And then we cut to Hedwig and Hedwig's mother in bed, and they're sleeping back to back. And so there is a debate as to whether Hedwig's father actually, you know, sorry for the trigger, anybody, but sexually abused him or if it's. Hedwig's mother was so rigid and so conservative that any kind of fatherly affection or intimacy she viewed as perverted because Hedwig's mother herself has issues. And that is. That's not interpretation, this. It's in the show, it's in the movie. Just how she speaks to her child and how she treats her child is more like a roommate and a student than as a child throwing tomatoes at Hedwig for singing in the oven while listening to the radio. Things like that. We don't have to get into our theories about Hedwig's father, but that's sort of the movie. I don't know. I don't know if I believe that the movie tells you one way or the other what actually happened. Because the shot that you have of Hedwig and Hedwig's father, I don't get discomfort from it. I get, you know, paternal care. You know, there's no touching, there's no anything like that. There's a safe distance. But there are people who believe that, you know, that's the shot before assault happens. But again, that sort of leans into what you were saying of Hedwig as not just unreliable narrator, but how unreliable we all are about our own childhood. Like, you can only speak accurately about yourself as a kid. To a certain extent. You have really no idea what your parents were about when you were a kid. And you really don't know how you came off to everyone as a child. You can only speak to, like, your. I guess you're. I don't say your emotional truth, but just like, I don't know, I feel like sometimes we put ourselves back into Our kids shoes and try to make sense of who we were and what was happening at the time. And we're still getting it wrong. Like, we still kind of weirdly make things up. My dad will tell me all the time that I'm making things up. When I tell him memories I have of my childhood, he goes, that never happened. You made that up. And I was like, I might be, but I don't think I am. I'm really trying not to, but I don't know.

[Preston Max Allen]

I don't have a lot of memories as a child, but they're very potent when I do. And I think that's where I'm like you. You. Sometimes it's more of like a feeling that I had in the moment, in the actual memory.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's sort of the thing is I remember I have very core memories, and then I have a lot of memories of who I was emotionally for certain years of my life. Like, I remember being an very emotional, easy crier of a kid from, you know, seven to nine. Even if I don't necessarily remember all the times that that happened. I just remember a three, four year period where anything could make me cry. I'm like that now, and I never cry now. My God, I'm always on the verge.

[Preston Max Allen]

I'm always on the verge of a crush. Out.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I guess you're more emotionally evolved than not, Aunt Preston.

[Preston Max Allen]

I'm just. Just struggling. I've been having a hard time.

[Matt Koplik]

Stubbornly.

[Preston Max Allen]

No, it's okay. It's okay. I have a beautiful cat.

[Matt Koplik]

You do have. You do have a beautiful cat. And you got a play. Carmen, talk to me about the revival now. Okay, now. Now that you have more context for it, what do you think works about it? And what do you think maybe in retrospect, with all this, all of the Hedwig knowledge you have that maybe you would like to have seen done differently.

[Preston Max Allen]

If anything, on a technical level, I think they do a really beautiful job matching the show with the space, which I already had been kind of aware of. I was already like, oh, this was. I knew the history, like on a peripheral level. So I was like, oh, how are they gonna put it in Broadway? And then the way they do is, like, so spectacularly Hedwig, that I really vibed with that. And I went, okay. They, like, they know what they're doing. Like, they're up for the. They understand. Obviously, they did. This wasn't me discovering anything, but I was like, oh, great. Like, they're really meeting this where it is. And then I think they did. I think Neil is very fabulously competent in the role. And I enjoyed what he was doing. I thought he was a great blend of a draw for publicity and someone who could really fiercely perform that role. And in terms of theme, I think I just watched it all with, like, stars in my eyes. Cause it was just exactly kind of what I'd wanted to see. And now looking back at it, I would love to. When I was revisiting those bootlegs that I certainly didn't watch, I was, like, imagining remembering, like, what it was like to be in that theater and feel the ways that I felt. And it did. It was some of the most I've been swept up and for me, some of the most. And this was great about revisiting it. Some of the most I've felt. I'm so caught up in it that I'm not thinking about my own career as a musical theater writer and how I would approach something or how I would write something, or how I'm jealous of something, like. Or how I wish I'd. That's not the case with this show. I can just, like, enjoy it. So I really. Yeah, that. That felt like a beautiful gift that they had taken this thing that I'd missed because I was firmly five in 1998, and repackaged it in a way that was just so connected to what the content was. Except when I look back, not accept. Cause it's a little, to me, like a compliment. But when I look back and that. I couldn't really understand John Cameron Mitchell's performance until I revisit it or watch the Jane street performance. Because it does seem like it's so in conversation to the world of Hedwig, rather than necessarily this production. Like, that particular performance felt like when I rewatched it, I was like, oh, this is. You know, the initial one is Hedwig fresh out of telling the story. Like, even though things have happened a while ago, she's still young. She's bursting into the world with this story. And this is the Hedwig that has been worn down by this story. And maybe in some ways. Cause, you know, John is changing melodies. John is saying different lines. Like, John is lived this story a lot. And I don't think it's wrong to say that it's worn him down maybe a little. And that was apparent respect, enjoyably in the show, but it was a different thing. And then I think also it had some of the curse of casting people who were gonna be flashy and not necessarily Right. For the role. Not people who are bad at the role. But if they'd gone off the beaten path just a little bit, I think we could have had not for everyone either, but some more intriguing performances than just like, this is the person who we think should play the role based on what is popular right now.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, performers, as we said, part one. Performers who were wearing the costume and a few who wore the skin. And neither one is egregious. As long as they're wearing something, you're not gonna be upset. But there is a difference between coffee and Senka and I. Yeah, John's performance and John as Hedwig in that production for me, because it was on a Broadway stage with a full blown set. And they, as you said, like, they made a point to have context for that Hedwig, wherever it's being performed, I'm sure that there is a discussion about how to contextualize the space that it's in. Because when it was at the Jane street, there were jokes about it being at the Jane Hotel because it was originally called the Riverview and it was where the Titanic survivors were kept after coming back to shore. And they made a lot of jokes about the Belasco and about the Shubert organization and things like that. And I believe the whole thing about the TGI Fridays in the Broadway licensing global whatever is because in early renditions of the show, it was in a TGI Fridays because that's where they were workshopping. It was like the back room of a TGI Fridays where there was a club. So I love the. And again, it goes into the world of the humor of Hedwig. It's sort of the Rent cruise and Guam joke from the movie, but done well, which is we are here at the Belasco because last night was the opening and closing night of the Hurt Locker, the musical. And they have yet to take down the set. And before they do in the morning, we are here to do like basically a gorilla conc, which still adds like some of that punk rock stuff to it. So it's. Yes, we have this money on stage. It's not our money. Someone else put up the money. We are sneaking in before they strike down the set. And I think that's very. It keeps in the style of the show. And then as the show continues, stripping it all away and going to a bare stage. But John's performance for me kind of had that energy of the. We snuck in. Whereas a Neil Patrick Harris or a. Or an Andrew Rannells or a Darren Criss is like, I Can play to a room of this size, that's no problem for me. I can match the scale. And John's was more sort of like, I can't match the scale and I'm not gonna try. And I'm actually gonna make that work very well for my interpretation.

[Preston Max Allen]

Yeah. Which I really enjoyed. I think I can see how people wouldn't get it.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, sure.

[Preston Max Allen]

But I had a great time. And at that point, my, like, oh, I really. Even though I saw Neil three times and I really obviously had a good time, my, like, I really get it. Person was Michael C. Hall.

[Matt Koplik]

That's what a lot of people said.

[Preston Max Allen]

Because he is just vibing in a unique way and it becomes a hedwig unto Michael's self. And it felt very honest and in a way that I don't think quite felt captured. So then I was prepared, like, I was ready for John because I think I felt like I had seen a hedwig that, like, was really playing right into who hedwig is. And so not having experienced John's performance before, I felt like I got it more than maybe if I'd gone from, like, Neil or Andrew.

[Matt Koplik]

Right.

[Preston Max Allen]

To John.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I've watched Michael's performance, you know, legally. I've totally watched it legally.

[Preston Max Allen]

Paid Broadway.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. But the best way I would describe Michael C. Hall's performances of all the other Broadway hedwigs, John Cameron Mitchell excepted, he's the one that feels the most German to me.

[Preston Max Allen]

Oh, that's fair. Yeah, that's fun. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And maybe it's because of his experiences with Cabaret back in the 90s, but I was like, oh, this is a hedwig who has definitely read about the Weimar Republic.

[Preston Max Allen]

Just saying they all should have. I won't say who this was, but there was one that did not sit right with me that I didn't. No, wait. Oh, God, how am I saying I want to talk? I don't want to insult anyone. We mentioned Tay, who just wasn't quite right for the role. But then I thought maybe I'd revisit this person I hadn't seen do it before, thinking I would maybe be more open hearted to this performance. And it just felt like the most. Not the most, but like, I turned it off. I was like, this isn't the hedwig for me. And I. Yeah, I don't. I feel like I shouldn't have talked about it without being able to say the person. And now it sounds more ominous than it was, but I was like, oh, now I'm watching a Hedwig. That is fully being performed. And it's not a bad thing. And I can see this performance try, this performer trying. But it is such a different show when you're watching someone get on stage and being like, here's this. I am playing the role of this in this show. And I'm gonna hit all the marks, right? And I'm gonna hit everything exactly as I know it should be hit. Which is so funny. Cause I'm basically critiquing how most roles should be played.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, it's the difference between being professional and being correct and.

[Preston Max Allen]

Or.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Or surprising. It's. I. I think you and I could both agree, whoever this person was, they did not have ill intent. They had good intentions when trying to do it. And it's not. I don't think that there's anything wrong in saying, this person is talented, this person has good intentions. They just weren't right for it. It wasn't a fit, and I'm glad that they took the shot. I think all artists, if they want to be great, have to make those big swings and try stuff. But you look. But you gotta learn, because not everything you do is going to be good. If everything you did was good, you'd be. I was gonna say mayonnaise, but that's not even true. But, like, I just mean mayonnaise is so middle of the road. Right. I'm sure. I know there are people who don't like it, but it's not like it's some bold flavor. It's just. It's there. It's there, too.

[Preston Max Allen]

Mentally there. I'm like, oh, this is fine.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. Yeah, it's there to be put on your club sandwich, to hold the pieces together with the bread. It's not fair to be like, you know, what's a wonderful flavor? That really just kicks it out. No.

[Preston Max Allen]

And there are going to be some people who are going to comment on this. I fucking love mayonnaise and its delightful flavor, and I think that's wonderful. And I think that I could have seen this person play Hedwig and had an amazing time in the theater and really been, like, great. What a lovely way to consume Hedwig. But after having seen so many Hedwigs, I don't think this is for me. There's so many people I wish I had seen, too. So that's fine. I would love. I know Jinx Monsoon played Hedwig, and I'm. Oh, God. If I could have gone back in.

[Matt Koplik]

Time and seen that would have been amazing. I wish I could have seen Kevin Cahoon's Hedwig, because Kevin did it a bunch and I'm sure was just absolutely incredible. There's video footage of Michael Cerveris doing it in London. Yeah. And I think Michael Cerveris was the first Hedwig after John Cameron Mitchell at Jane Street. And they said that it was very important that whoever they cast post John was right. Because they needed to prove that the show could work without John Cameron Mitchell.

[Preston Max Allen]

Yes. And I thought he was very good. The thing that I find curious, this is a larger discussion than this, is that Hedwig is described in such a way physically that I think anyone should be able to play Hedwig, aside from the physical nature of it. But I think anyone that does not fit the physical nature of how typical body type wise. How. Like when Luther is seeing Hedwig, there's a specific person who's described, and when the person does not play is just not that type at all. I think they have more of an uphill climb.

[Matt Koplik]

It's harder to be believable as Hedwig if you're built like a quarterback. I know what you mean. Like, it's a size, it's a muscle, it's a tone. It's all these things.

[Preston Max Allen]

It's just a different experience that that person has walking through the world than Hedwig has. And so you're like, yeah, because.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, because Luther is said to Hansel when they meet on a piece of broken church, you know, it says, you're so fine, I can't believe you're not a woman. Which is such a weird thing to say to someone, but informs you sort of how Hedwig, how Hansel presents to the world. When Hansel is Hansel.

[Preston Max Allen]

I get it. People on Grindr say the darndest thing.

[Matt Koplik]

People on Grindr do say the darndest things. Okay, we will wrap things up shortly. First, let's take one last break.

[Preston Max Allen]

Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[Matt Koplik]

How do you mean?

[Preston Max Allen]

You're the top.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Preston Max Allen]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire.

[Matt Koplik]

And we're back. Okay, so final thoughts sort of on the. What would we say, the legacy of Hedwig and the Angry Inches. Present day Where. Where do we leave it with the. With the theatrical culture right now?

[Preston Max Allen]

I think it's so fascinating because it is, like. It's so specific and it's modern in many ways. But it's also very timeless. I think it will always have this kind of miraculous magnetism for people who are asking themselves or need to explore within themselves anything that's in this show. And there's so much that I think, like me in 2014, 15 pre transition, just drawn to this complicated, complicated person and narrative from different angles. And I think it's always going to do that, and I think it's always going to present the same challenges in the culture that it did. Like, it was specifically not for this purpose, but it was produced before Trump. And I think that I, with all my love for this show and all my understanding of the show, would be nervous if it was going to be revived now. And I would say some of the things that I pointed out with the like, oh, is this is going to present a narrative that people are going to interpret as a trans person mutilated in their ba. It's going to get out of hand. And so it's like, I don't know. I think that's what's kind of extraordinary about it, is that it's always challenging and it's always beautiful and it's always personal. And I think that is a testament overall to the specific, specificity of this show. Like the unique, extraordinarily unique specificity of this character that we just don't usually see. Even in really beautiful shows, we just don't see characters like Hedwig very often. And we don't get to explore gender and body and sexuality and identity in all the complicated ways that Hedwig does without spelling it out. And so I think it will always be a really powerful and so successful show.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. Yeah. Just because the waters are choppy doesn't mean they're not worth swimming in. You know what I mean?

[Preston Max Allen]

Hey, sometimes they're not.

[Matt Koplik]

Sometimes. Hey, sometimes you're Annette Bening and Naiad and you should just get out of the water, girlfriend. But in regards to Hedwig, I think those are waters you can absolutely swim.

[Preston Max Allen]

I was gonna be like Jaws. You were like Annette Benning and Nyad.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, because Jaws, it's not the water that's the problem. It's the Jaws that's the problem.

[Preston Max Allen]

That's beautiful. That's a beautiful way of looking at it. The water is fine.

[Matt Koplik]

The water did nothing wrong. The water was simply there. It's not their fault that one of its residents is an asshole.

[Preston Max Allen]

Kind of. The shark did nothing wrong. If you look at what sharks are up to.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, sure.

[Preston Max Allen]

This is a podcast about if the shark in Jaws was acceptable.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, this. This is a. This is a shark apologist podcast. Especially after the Dream Girls episodes where Jason Vesey and I are like, curtis is not a total villain. Curtis is actually right half the time. But, yeah, you guys can go back and listen to that episode. But, yeah, that's all we say is a lot of things that Curtis gets, like, vilified for doing. It's like he ends up being correct in doing it because it ends up working. But, yeah, no, the shark was being a shark. The water was the water. Nyad. That woman went in and she said, oh, it may be 30 degrees. Oh, it may be dense, choppy waters. I'm gonna swim because I'm Annette Benning, baby.

[Preston Max Allen]

That is the script. That's what the script says.

[Matt Koplik]

That is literally what the script said. Not that anyone would know, because about 20 people watched that movie and the Oscars would gaslight you into believing it was 20 million.

[Preston Max Allen]

I believe anything I wish. I believe people are flocking to the Annette Bening Oscar vehicles. Genuinely. That sounded sarcastic.

[Matt Koplik]

Of course. I. We've all watched being Julia 10,000 times. Who wouldn't watch Being Julia? Being Julia. Being Julia. Being Julia.

[Preston Max Allen]

Being Julia brought to you by being as a trans child. So this is all tying back to gender.

[Matt Koplik]

The end. Yeah. Being Julia was the working title for Hedwig and the Angry Inch. And John Cameron Mitchell said, you know, what's a basic name? Julia. I mean, Julia Roberts. Julia Louis Dreyfus. How about, we haven't had a Hedwig yet?

[Preston Max Allen]

I think all of these delightful tangents we're going on are very reminiscent of John Cameron Mitchell doing the Broadway revival.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, absolutely. One of my favorite threads to read back in the day on Broadway Worlds was when John Cameron Mitchell went into Hedwig and there were reports from his performances because of all the tangents he would do, no performance was ever fully the same. And because. And also there were things that he had cut that he had put in the script for when Neil and Michael and Andrew did it. Things about, you know, oh, the ghost of Belasco is the ghost there is gonna be there. He fully cut that when he went. And he was like, no, I will be doing. I will be doing a very length, lengthy 10 about Grindr. We're cutting the ghost bit.

[Preston Max Allen]

That was. I thought when I rewatched, I was like, did they cut the ghost bit or did I just. Was I stoned? I was stoned, but I usually remember things.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And, yes, the. There was one night I remember I didn't get to See that one? I wish I had. But there was a talk sometimes John would have issues with the eyelashes. And one night did, like, a very lengthy five about the eyelash. And then. And finally ended it with what are eyelashes made of? Anyway, Took a beat and said, no, best not to dwell on it. That way lies madness. And I went. And I'm like, that's fucking perfect.

[Preston Max Allen]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

That way lies madness. And it's. Hedwig is a piece for me. I think it's sort of. I think in the theater world, we're all drawn to it for various reasons, for what it's about, what it tackles, how it's presented, the opportunities, provides for a performer, for a director, for a designer. As you said, audiences are not treated to a story like this, about this very often. And done this kind of both empathetic yet complicated way that, as we were saying earlier, provides no answers, but it's not gloatingly vague, but it is also not stupidly obvious. It does not give you all the context. It gives you enough so you can follow, but not enough that you have concrete answers. And I love that. And I wish we had more of that. We. We're starting to get more of that with our plays these days. In the last few years, we've had quite a few really strong original plays. I would love it if we got that in our musicals again. But I don't know.

[Preston Max Allen]

That might be a pipe dream.

[Matt Koplik]

I've been talking about that for a while. But when things are done with nuance and intelligence and care and not trying to meet the moment and, you know, be for everyone or be uncancellable, those are things that tend to survive. And despite the changing of times, despite the backlash, Hedwig keeps enduring like the character herself. And I think that is a testament to the quality of the piece and the meat that's in the piece as well. In addition, the fact that all the songs are just fucking incredible.

[Preston Max Allen]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah.

[Preston Max Allen]

Same.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you tell us of any Hedwigs that you had in your. In your dream list?

[Preston Max Allen]

Oh, my dream. I really thought about this, and a lot of them have, like, played Hedwig. I found that. Okay. If I were to be putting on a production of Hedwig at this time, I think I would call in Marty Lauer. I think I would really. I would bet a lot on Marty. For the Drag Race fans also. Marcia. Marcia. Marcia. I don't know. I feel like that could really be a fit. So that's my, like, legitimate one I also found out that Adam Lambert was offered Hedwig and was like, no, no, there was more to. It was like. Apparently the quote was like, I don't want to do drag eight times a week. That's. It's a demanding thing, and I have nothing but respect for people who are like, it's not for me. But I keep. Okay. This is another awful thing I keep in my mind. And I think she would do it, and I'd have an incredible time, even though it would be a complicated. This is the most canceled I'll get. I like one night for Nicole Scherzinger.

[Matt Koplik]

Honestly, I'm not mad about that.

[Preston Max Allen]

I'm sorry. Someone has to say it. Someone has to say Nicole Scherzinger, Hedwig when fully.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm down.

[Preston Max Allen]

Thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm fucking down.

[Preston Max Allen]

Jamie. Lloyd's.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, let's not get crazy here.

[Preston Max Allen]

No, I'm just gonna. No, but I. I. What I would do. I also looked up Alan Cumming singing some songs from Hedwig, and I'm really surprised that he's never played.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I think that Alan Cumming got a little too big in America because Cabaret with Alan Cumming was the same Broadway season that Hedwig was premiering at the Jane street. And in fact, they were up against John. Kara Mitchell never won an award opposite Alan Cumming that year. I think John Hammett Mitchell won a Lortel Award. And I. And I know that they won the Outer Critics Circle or the Drama Desk for, like, off Broadway musical, but I don't believe John Cabrer Mitchell won actor in a musical against Alan Cumming that year. And Alan Cumming was already having, like, a slightly larger movie career by that point, but his career was never in a spot where he. Where it made sense for him to do Hedwig. Like, he was a little too big to do it when the Jane street thing happened. And then when the movie was made, it was like, never gonna not be John Cameron Mitchell. And then by the time the revival happened on Broadway, he was doing Cabaret again. So it's like. It's just time. Yeah. Just timing.

[Preston Max Allen]

But never. Just never in his whole life.

[Matt Koplik]

I know.

[Preston Max Allen]

Well, who are your Hedwigs?

[Matt Koplik]

I don't really have any.

[Preston Max Allen]

You're gonna love my production starring Marty.

[Matt Koplik]

And Nicole Scherzinger on Tuesdays. I'm. I. I'm very down for that, I think, because women have played Hedwig, and I think it's important to remind people that Ali Sheedy famously did it at the Jane Street And Lena hall did it on tour for a little while. And I think that, similar to Betty Gilpin playing Mary Todd Lincoln, I think there's a lot of fun to be had with fucking around with that and seeing who could bring what to it.

[Preston Max Allen]

Yes, I really enjoy visualizing that. I don't use AI Because I think AI Is world ending trash. But if I could use it, I would use it to make. To see people play. I would. Sutton Foster's Hedwig. Anyone? Like, I just want to see what that is. Like, I just want to see what it is. You know what? I just want to like, if I could play a video game called Other People Play Hedwig.

[Matt Koplik]

Mary Test is Hedwig. Why not? Let's see it.

[Preston Max Allen]

Please. Not Damon. Donna's Hedwig. Mm.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm not mad about it. There are plenty of Broadway twinks or movie. I'll say Hollywood twinks that I wouldn't be mad about seeing do it. But no, that's something for me to think about. I'll think about that. You and me, we're gonna do it. That's us. Preston, once again, you are delightful. Thank you for being so delightful and being on two parts of a Hedwig, of course, episode. Where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[Preston Max Allen]

@ PrestonMax Allen. But it's mostly pictures of my cat.

[Matt Koplik]

That is absolutely fun. And when does Carolyn or Caroline start performances?

[Preston Max Allen]

Caroline starts performances on. I think we start previews on September 12th. I think we open on the 29th of September.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay.

[Preston Max Allen]

And I know we run through October 19th.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Come on down. Come on down. If you haven't got those tickets, I will yell at you. I think that's gonna be it for this episode of Broadway Breakdown. If you haven't yet, make sure you join the Discord Channel to chat with other listeners on all the things. If you want more of me, you're host Matt Koplik. You can follow me on Instagram. Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. You can also join the Broadway Breakdown substack for exclusive written and video content from myself. Preston, what diva would you like to close us out with for Hedvig Partos?

[Preston Max Allen]

I got overwhelmed, and I don't want to choose one that you have already done.

[Matt Koplik]

I've done them all.

[Preston Max Allen]

Can I do a future diva?

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Preston Max Allen]

Can I do someone that I spent a long time convincing my parents is going to be, like, the, like, Patty level, Sutton level as Eva Noblezada?

[Matt Koplik]

I'm sorry, do you think I was gonna be upset about that?

[Preston Max Allen]

I just know she's young. I know she doesn't technically qualify, but I spent so long last week showing my parents videos of her because they were like, what do you usually put on when. When, like when you show friends YouTube videos? We have some time to kill. And I was like, the Jimmies. And they were like, who's that? And I went, who's that? And now I just can't get out of her head, her clutching her child and the Tony's going, I would give my life anyway, I'm really. And then I saw her as Sally and I thought about her at Hegwig and I was like, I don't think she'd be right, but like, she'd do an amazing job. So that is who I'm nominating.

[Matt Koplik]

Alrighty then. I'm. I'm. I'm okay with that. I consider her a Broadway diva, a present day young diva. So I think that is absolutely fine.

[Preston Max Allen]

Great.

[Matt Koplik]

You're good.

[Preston Max Allen]

Perfect. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Guys, if you like the podcast, make sure to give us a nice 5 star rating or review. But that's going to be it for now. We will see you next week. Thank you so much for stopping by, friends, and we will see you soon enough. Take it away, Eva. Bye.

[Preston Max Allen]

As long as you can have your chance I swear I give my life for you.