Deep Dive: NATASHA, PIERRE & THE GREAT COMET OF 1812 (Part 2) w/ Natalie Walker

Summary

Broadway Breakdown — Deep Dive: NATASHA, PIERRE & THE GREAT COMET OF 1812 (Part 2)

Host: Matt Koplik | Guest: Natalie Walker
Date: December 11, 2025

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Episode Overview

In the second part of their deep dive, Matt Koplik and returning guest Natalie Walker continue their passionate, hilarious, and profane exploration of Natasha, Pierre & The Great Comet of 1812 ("Comet"). They move from discussing personal relationships to production details, performance critiques, design triumphs, casting legacy, internet drama, and the show's ongoing influence on Broadway and beyond.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Revisiting the Show on Broadway

• Personal viewing history: Natalie talks through her journey seeing "Comet" in various iterations—at the Casino, ART in Boston, and four times on Broadway.
  • [02:37] "I had seen it at Casino so much. And I already knew that I was obsessed with it...then I got to visit them [Heath Saunders] and see it in Boston and then saw it, I think it ended up being four times on Broadway, all told." (Natalie Walker)
• Set and Design Genius: Both marvel at the translation of an immersive, environmental show to Broadway’s proscenium stage.
  • [04:31] "The curvatures of all the platforms and the runways...making sure that no one ever was facing one way all the time." (Matt)
  • The set is described as “cluttered and elegant at the same time ...like if the richest person you knew with the best taste was a hoarder.” (Matt, 05:09)
  • Paloma Young’s costumes are lauded for feeling both period and modern, and the homey-yet-opulent aesthetic comes up repeatedly.

Character Analysis & Favorite Moments

• Helene’s ‘Charming’ as a Manipulation Anthem:
  • [07:52] Matt calls "Charming" “probably the best manipulation song a woman has had in musical theater since Poor Unfortunate Souls.”
  • They dissect how Helene weaponizes societal expectations of women for Natasha’s ‘benefit,’ masking manipulation as sisterly advice.
  • Amber Gray’s performance is repeatedly praised for its seductive power.
• Sonic Storytelling & Score Craft:
  • Dave Malloy’s genius in blending musical genres to signify character and relationship—Anatole’s “electro pop” infiltrating Natasha’s sound, for example.
    • [09:31] "Caroline, or Change...was so many different genres meshing together. And I don't feel like I heard that again until Great Comet." (Matt)
  • Comparisons to other genre-blending scores like "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" surface, noting how character-centric music choices drive story.

Staging and the Loss of Intimacy on Broadway

• The move to a larger theater created a loss of intimacy, especially for the character of Natasha:
  • [21:24] "Acting wise in the tents...you were so close to her...And then moving into that larger space and doing...it still was much more proscenium...loss of intimacy really made that role suffer the most." (Natalie)
  • Matt and Natalie theorize this impacted both Denée Benton’s Broadway Natasha and speculate Philippa Soo may have encountered similar challenges.

“Pierre & Natasha” — The Climactic Scene

• The emotional centerpiece of the show—the scene where Pierre finally vocalizes his love for Natasha—is discussed in detail.
  • [41:11] Natalie recites:

    "If I were not myself, but the brightest, handsomest, best man on earth, and if I were free, I would get down on my knees this minute and ask you for your hand and for your love."

  • They reflect on how the score’s music falls away to pure dialogue for devastating emotional impact.
  • Matt: [40:29] "The fact that the music gets taken away is the most chemical way for an audience to understand. Oh, we are raw now. There's no ornamentation."

Reflections on Compassion, Mistakes, and Humanity

• The hosts draw connections between their theatrical passions and personal lives, emphasizing the transformative power of showing up for each other—especially after mistakes have been made.
  • [53:51] Natalie: “You can be surprised by someone you've known for decades...at any moment, they could say something that changes your life, changes your relationship...and it's always possible.”

The Downfall and Legacy of Great Comet

• Tony Nominations and the Mandy Patinkin Fallout:
  • The show led the Tonys with 12 nominations but famously became entrenched in controversy after the casting upheaval when Josh Groban departed, Oak’s box office draw fell short, and Mandy Patinkin was brought in (and quickly exited) amidst social media uproar.
    • [73:26] "The conversation became the situation should never have been this precarious that if Mandy pulled out, they were going to close." (Matt)
  • The precariousness of commercial theater producing and the problematic nature of outrage cycles on social media are picked apart:
    • [83:56] "There are plenty of things to take umbrage with and go, hey, not cool. A lot of them are not things to go to the mat for, especially because what it then dilutes when it is time to go to the mat."
• Influence on Broadway’s Future:
  • The hosts credit Comet’s legacy for paving the way for more experimental musicals, director Rachel Chavkin’s rise, and the careers of Philippa Soo, Amber Gray, Shaina Taub, and more.
    • "[90:28] ...exploded the possibilities of what shows can sound like...giving opportunities to people that are brilliant, that might otherwise not have gotten the opportunity to show their brilliance in a commercial theater sphere." (Natalie)
  • Malloy’s Octet is cited as a spiritual successor, exploring connection among the cacophony of modern discourse.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Design:
  • [05:09] Matt: "Like if the richest person you knew with the best taste was a hoarder. That is how I would describe the set design of Great Comet."
• On Manipulation in "Charming":
  • [08:09] Natalie (imagining Amber Gray as Helene): "Mommy. Sorry, Mommy. Sorry, Mommy. I look good in the dress? You think I look good in the dress?"
• On Breaking the Mold:
  • [09:31] Matt: "Caroline, or Change...was so many different genres meshing together. And I don't feel like I heard that again until Great Comet."
• On Naming the Divide:
  • [23:51] Matt: "A great divide for the Great Comet of people who got it and people who didn't. ... I wish you had seen it in the tent."
• On Facing Vulnerability:
  • [41:11] Natalie (quoting Pierre): "If I were not myself, but the brightest, handsomest, best man on earth, and if I were free, I would get down on my knees this minute and ask you for your hand and for your love."
  • [53:51] Natalie: "You can be surprised by someone you've known for decades, at any moment, at any moment, they could say something that changes your life, changes your relationship to them, to yourself...it's always possible if you leave your house."
• On Difficulty of Social Media Outrage:
  • [84:55] Matt (on Great Comet’s closure): "Ignorance may be bliss, but ignorance also makes me see exactly what your asshole looks like. And I'm not always in the mood to look at that."
• On The Importance of Connection:
  • [86:40] Natalie (about Octet): "What I find so moving about Octet is so much of it is about the evils of social media, of online culture. But...you get this beautiful little jewel of a moment where ... [someone] has this gorgeous little song about, like, finding connection."

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Opening banter, show context: [00:40]–[04:30]
• Favorite set and design elements: [04:31]–[06:14]
• Gender-flipped fantasy casting and "Charming" analysis: [07:24]–[12:38]
• Staging moments & manipulation breakdown: [13:49]–[15:55]
• Score analysis & musical motif discussion: [09:31]–[11:58]
• Loss of intimacy in Broadway transfer: [19:17]–[23:51]
• Dream castings, Donmar Warehouse, international lens: [25:08]–[29:04]
• Climactic Pierre/Natasha scene and vulnerability in theater: [38:12]–[56:09]
• Reflections on relationship, trust, being seen at your worst: [56:09]–[59:59]
• Legacy, producing, and Comet's Tony season: [72:06]–[77:09]
• Internet outrage, self-awareness, and the Octet connection: [80:44]–[87:37]
• Final thoughts on legacy and design influence: [89:53]–[93:38]
• Outro diva and comedic banter: [96:13]–[97:01]

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Podcast Tone & Style

Matt and Natalie maintain a warm, breathlessly geeky, and often profane camaraderie—mixing genuine insight with wild jokes, musical-theater references, and sharp industry commentary. Their love for Comet and for boundary-breaking theater is infectious and leaves listeners with both new perspectives and a craving to revisit the show (or its slime tutorials).

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Closing

The deep dive closes with Natalie’s wish for Audra McDonald’s “Mistress of the Senator” as the outro—sealing an episode committed to diva worship, deep dramaturgical appreciation, and the messy passion that makes Broadway, Broadway.

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Transcript

[Natalie Walker]

You are such a lovely take away in. It's such a shame to bury girls in the country.

Such a shame.

[Matt Kopeck]

Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. Welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Kopeck, the least famous and most opinionated fall of the Broadway podcast host. And I forgot to say this in part one, this series is called Matt's Picks and it is covering shows that you've submitted to Sally. Bo and I did not pick out, but I wanted to cover anyway. So we are back for part two with friend of the pod, Ms. Natalie Walker. We've been able to keep her a whole week. We kept her in the studio this entire time and she just stayed for seven days, but she back. Hello, Natalie.

[Natalie Walker]

Hello. Hello. I love living with you. I love it.

[Matt Kopeck]

You love me so much. I'm a good reader.

[Natalie Walker]

I'll never leave. Yeah, you will never leave. I'm evening primrosing in here. I love that.

[Matt Kopeck]

Oh, I was going. I was going sideshow. I will never leave you. But, yeah, I knew you were going. More niche. I appreciate. Thank you.

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah. That I'm just. I'm a mannequin and I come alive at night.

[Matt Kopeck]

I mean, in a lot of ways, you are Charmaine Carr and I am Anthony Perkins. You are an ingenue and I am gay.

[Natalie Walker]

That's. That's fair. Yeah, that's fair.

[Matt Kopeck]

That is fair.

[Natalie Walker]

And you. And you're with mother.

[Matt Kopeck]

And I am with mother. Not for much longer, though.

We're flying.

[Natalie Walker]

You're moving. You're moving out of your. Your Bates Motel?

[Matt Kopeck]

My, My, My Great Gardens. Yes.

I won't say that was Norman Bates of me. That was Trey McDougal of me. Mother wants you all to know her home is nice.

All right, back to Great comment. We're on Broadway. It's 2016, 2017. Josh Groban's like, you know what I want to do? Make a Broadway debut. You wanna know? Danae Ben's like, you know what I wanna do? Make a Broadway debut.

We have this whole big production. How long had it been since you last seen it? Was it like since Casino or had you gone to see it at Art as well?

[Natalie Walker]

I had gone to see it at Art because that is when Heath Saunders got involved. And it was sort of a miraculous thing because I met Heath.

The.

Maybe the summer before. They booked it. They booked it at Art. And by that point, I already had been. I had seen it At Casino so much. And I already knew that I was obsessed with it. And I met Heath doing a musical theater.

Workshop, which I would not have done had Comet not made me fall back in love with musical theater and go, oh, if this is what it. If they're gonna be. If there's gonna be stuff like this, I want to. I want to do that. I want to be there for it if there's more stuff like this.

And so I met Heath doing that workshop. We became instant best friends and forged a friendship through both having MoviePass during the era of MoviePass, when it truly was like you were running a scam all the time, because we could just. We would just see movies together every other day and just swipe the magic card and not pay money. And so we saw everything together and just would, like, see bad movies and have a laugh. It was beautiful. And then a couple months into this new friendship, they went, oh, I'm going to be out of town for a bit. I'm going to be doing Comet at art. And I went, what are you talking about? And I went insane. And so then I got to visit them and see it in Boston and then saw it. I think it ended up being four times on Broadway, all told. So. So, yeah. So I really saw. I saw every iteration but Ars Nova. But the first Ars.

[Matt Kopeck]

Ars production, I think the design of that production on Broadway was really phenomenal of capturing that incredible design of casino and implementing it into a proscenium house.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

And the curvatures of all the platforms and the runways, I thought was very intelligent of just making sure that nothing. No one ever was facing one way all the time. Always. There's always. Yeah.

[Natalie Walker]

Something visually to hold. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Kopeck]

And. And I mean, with those beautiful Metropolitan Opera House chandeliers and just really, really stunning stuff. Like, it was. It was both cluttered and elegant at the same time, which is the only way I can describe it.

[Natalie Walker]

Like.

[Matt Kopeck]

Like if the richest person you knew with the best taste was a hoarder. That is how I would describe the set design of Great Comet.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes. Yes. It's also. If there are any interior design freaks watching this, or if you're not an interior design freak, this will make you an interior design freak. There's a video of Charles Bush giving an apartment tour, and it is that it's like, sort of the platonic ideal of that, where, like, he has so many bits and tchotchkes and memorabilia, and it's the most opulent, glamorous place you could imagine, that you're just like, Oh, I want to live here. And it's so cozy, too. And it's got that. The red. I mean, part of why I painted my walls red was that I was like that. Is it to just come into, like, this? Even in a small apartment with a bunch of cluttered things everywhere, there's just something about coming into a red space that just feels. Ooh. It feels glamorous.

[Matt Kopeck]

I mean, it's like a burgundy now, but I'm wearing a little bit of a. I'm in, like, a maroon thread right now.

[Natalie Walker]

Exactly.

[Matt Kopeck]

Mother Russia. I did say something to Natalie off mic before that I'm not going to give the full details of, but I will call back to, which is just that in so many ways, Natalie Walker is a gay man and just the casual Charles Bush of it all with interior design. It's not performative. She just is in the most beautiful and truly. And truly pure of ways and. And I appreciate it. What I hate about it is that she gets to have my desire for diva roles and actually get cast in them somewhere, whereas I have to go into my bedroom and pretend that the world is big enough for me.

Not so. Not so. One day.

[Natalie Walker]

One day. Well, green room 42. People will see the videos. By the time this comes out, they'll be seeing the videos and they'll be going, let's open up the world. Let's make this world bigger.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah.

[Natalie Walker]

Hey, let's make this world bigger.

[Matt Kopeck]

If the world is wide enough for Hamilton and Burr, make it wide enough for Walker and Kaplik.

Yeah.

[Natalie Walker]

Our Pierre and Natasha production.

[Matt Kopeck]

I'm. I'm just saying, I. I'm starting to get ready. I'm gonna. I'm starting to know people with money, and I'm learning to talk a big game with them. I was gonna try to get them to invest in my stuff. I'm like, maybe I have them invest in me and Natalie doing Natasha. Pierre. But gender flipped. Yeah, I'm down. I'm fully down. Cola Scola is Helene.

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah. Oh, chic.

[Matt Kopeck]

Chic.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

Okay, wait. So this is actually a song that I wanted to talk about a little bit. This is probably the best manipulation song a woman has had in musical theater since Poor Unfortunate Souls. Ursula would absolutely sing. Charming.

[Natalie Walker]

Oh, God.

[Matt Kopeck]

Because here's the thing.

[Natalie Walker]

If Amber Gray. If Amber Gray was looking at you and said, pam, you look gorgeous in that dress, I will do anything you say, ma'. Am. Mommy. Sorry, Mommy. Sorry, Mommy. I look good in the dress. You think I look good in the dress? You think I look. Oh, you think I look powerful in the. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Yeah. That would be my. My fanfic. Yeah, absolutely.

[Matt Kopeck]

It's evergrey saying, oh, my God, look at you in that thing. You are going to be the prettiest person at my party. And then you go being like, oh, my God, Mommy said I look pretty in the dress. And then Lucas Steele with them lives in that butt being like, I am so in love with you. What am I supposed to do? It's isn't my fault that you are enchanting. And I'm like, oh, can I go to the bathroom for a second and change my underwear? I'm flooded. Basement, flooded. Ain't no underground in Louisiana. There's only underwater.

[Natalie Walker]

Salty, salty, salty.

[Matt Kopeck]

That's in the top five for me of the 21st century of scores.

[Natalie Walker]

Oh, like, for sure.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah, yeah. And there's actually a lot of ties to Caroline or Change and Great Comet because Carolina changes. I think the first Broadway score I ever heard that was so many different genres that were meshing together. And I don't feel like I heard that again until Great Comet. The only one that's like, kind of a caveat, and it's going to sound stupid, but hear me out here is Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, which was.

[Natalie Walker]

Well, you know, I love Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, so I'll always give you a Dirty Rotten Scoundrels.

[Matt Kopeck]

That's. That is like a legit show that if someone was like, okay, we can't go so far to make you and Natalie do a gender event. Great comment. We'll be like, do you want to do a traditional Dirty Rotten Scoundrels with us? Because we'll do that.

[Natalie Walker]

We'll do that any day of the damn week. Oh, that's me. Ah, perfect. Perfect diva entrance.

[Matt Kopeck]

Oh, God. Sherry, Renee, share the Sherry Renaissance. It's. It's here. It's happening. But this is to say with Dirty around Scoundrels, that was the first time I had heard a score where, like, each character had their own genre of music and they didn't intertwine in the way that Great Common and Carolina changed to. But I remember that being this thing that people were ticked off about at first. I remember, like, reading the message boards at the time because Natalie and I still read them, guys, just so you know.

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah, we. We trod the boards. Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

Us and Jesse Tyler Ferguson. But I remember when the journey round Scoundrels was in previews, and everybody's like, oh, my God, this girl doesn't know what it wants to be. And I was like, no. John Lithgow has a different style than Norgalio Butts, who has a different style from Chera Renee Scott. Like, it's actually really fucking brilliant and comets the same way. It's just that Malloy is like, oh, yeah. Like, when Anatol enters the world, his electro pop is going to infiltrate Natasha's like, classic musical theater style. And you're going to hear it in a way that, like, shouldn't work and yet does.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

That's actually kind of a really smart way to subconsciously let an audience know how things can fit or not fit. Like, as you're saying constrained notes with. With Natasha and Mary, like, that's a really good way to let Anis know that of, like, that tension without having to necessarily explain it. You hear it and you go, oh, yes. There's no world in which Natasha can ever be Mary's sister in law. These two women are so diametrically opposed. And while Anna's whole doesn't necessarily fit with Natasha as, like a soulmate, you hear how their music combines. You're like, oh, I get the attraction. This is a new style of music in the show we haven't heard yet. And that's kind of fun.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes. Yeah, totally.

[Matt Kopeck]

But back to charming. One of my favorite lyrics. And it's. And it's a line in the novel is such a shame to bury pearls in the country, which is that. I'm sorry, I just also finished recording with Ali Gordon where we both say cunt, like every five seconds. So, like, that is cunt. That line is. It's. It is so quotable. It's. It is so flowery. And yet it's using. Being used for manipulation. And also it's also like, it's a toss off of, like, it's saying to Natasha, you're so beautiful. Why are you hauling yourself up every night for your fiance? He wants you to have fun. It'd be a shame to bury pearls in the country.

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah. And, yeah. And the way that she weaponizes the fiance too. The. The way that it's like, no, like, men want to have. Men want to have the prettiest girl in society. So you need to go out into society to show people how beautiful you are so that when your fiance comes home, you'll be the biggest prize imaginable. Like, so setting it up so that she does come to the party thinking that she is being the dutiful fiance, presenting herself in society so that when he comes home, she is sort of A society queen that can be on his arm and can be the perfect trophy for him.

[Matt Kopeck]

Absolutely.

[Natalie Walker]

Just it.

[Matt Kopeck]

It also gives a little bit of the Sarah Michelle Geller Selma Blair scene in Cruel Intentions where she's like, absolutely. She's like, when your boyfriend gets back, you want to be experienced. You don't want him to have sex with you, and you not know what you're doing, so have sex a lot. And it's like, I know. I know what I'm talking about. I've done this before. You idolize me. The.

There's a moment of staging that I completely forgot about, which is that at the top of the show, when Andre leaves, the first piece of staging, we get Natasha running after Andre before he leaves. She doesn't want him to go, but in the end, he gives her a token. She puts it on her neck, and he gives him his coat, and he goes out through the doors shut.

She wears that token all throughout the show until charming, when Helene puts her in a new dress, rips the token off of her.

[Natalie Walker]

The token, it doesn't go.

[Matt Kopeck]

It doesn't. It doesn't go with the go.

[Natalie Walker]

It doesn't go, uh.

[Matt Kopeck]

And gives her the double pearl necklace that Natasha had been idolizing during the opera. And. And. And she frames it not as a forget about him. Like, you gotta do all these things. It's. It is a. It's. You're a woman now. You deserve big girl clothes. Here's your big girl clothes. You're welcome. You're being anointed. Aren't you ready? Aren't you excited? Look at the good I do.

[Natalie Walker]

I'm styling you. I'm styling you.

[Matt Kopeck]

When I started watching that in the library last week, I was like, I forgot about that. I forgot about that moment. It's such a great moment.

That fits with what the song is doing and reminds the audience that, like, Helene is talking out of her ass, or rather, she's using truth to her advantage. Natasha is beautiful. Everyone does think Natasha's beautiful. Anatole does want her, but not in the capacity that Helena's saying. And, like, Andre would want Natasha to have fun, but, like, within reason, right?

[Natalie Walker]

And it's like, you could be a me. You could be sort of a me if you play this right. Like, I don't think it's all manipulation in. Like, it is all manipulation, but I don't think it's entirely. Maybe this is just me wanting Helene to have, like, more of a heart. She might. She might die, but.

It'S not all manipulation on behalf of her brother. I think there is an element that's like, this girl is as pretty as I was at that age, and I love my life. My life rocks. And this girl, like, if she.

If she plays her cards right, she could have, like, a fun life, like me, you know, Like.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah. I think I would still maybe describe it as manipulation, just because she's not.

[Natalie Walker]

No, it is. It is all manipulation. But that it might be more like, not just on behalf of the brother, but also like, oh, I could have, like, a really hot friend. Like, you ever seen two pretty best friends.

[Matt Kopeck]

I think there's part of that for sure. This is not necessarily. If Helene and Anatole credit. They are not intending to ruin Natasha's life. They're not. They're not pulling.

[Natalie Walker]

They're just intending to have to experience their own pleasure.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah. And they don't think about the next.

[Natalie Walker]

To get their kicks. Yeah.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah. And in fact, when Pierre. When Pierre confronts Anatol and he's like, did you promise to marry her? And he's like, I don't remember. Maybe. Kind of. And it's like we witnessed him recite a letter to her that Dolokov wrote that was literally like, marry me. I'm going to take you and we're going to get married. He's telling everyone, I'm gonna marry her, we're gonna elope. And then when Pierre's like, well, did you promise that? He's like, maybe. I don't know. That was 10 minutes ago. Like, I can only tell you what happened four minutes ago. Yeah. Yeah. And Helene's sort of the same way, where it's always like. It's just about. It's about the now, live in the now. And it's. It is weaponizing what is meant to be a healthy mantra of like, enjoy yourself, enjoy the world, enjoy each other, and weaponizing that for your own personal gain. Whereas Pierre takes. Learns that mantra at the end by touching grass of learning. Rather, like, not to have your own joy and have it be selfish so much as, like, participate again, be a participant in the world. And Helene and Anatole are like, well, yes, I'm a participant. And we're, like, watching them going, no, no. You view everyone else as your props. That's not participating. That's using. You use the world. Yeah. Look at me using words today.

[Natalie Walker]

Oh, my God, beautiful.

[Matt Kopeck]

Am I a podcaster or something? My God.

More notes I have here. Okay. Oh, so. Okay, I'll tie this now down to Danae and Philippa. So the first time I Saw Danae on Broadway. It was pretty soon after they opened. I want to say it was December, might have been January. And I remember being kind of a little disappointed with her. And part of it was that I had seen her on the second season of Unreal, because I am, what, Gay? And I mean, like, she's so ferocious. I can't wait to see her. And I avoided any audio of her. I wanted to, like, watch her. And I was a little underwhelmed by her vocally. To her credit, Natasha's a hard role, and. And some of that got tailored to Philippa, but. But one of my. My issue with Danae at the time, and I still have that issue with her performance now post library recording. Although I will say, by the time the library recording happened In August of 2017, she vocally grew a lot. So I. I had no issues anymore with her singing. I was like, oh, she sounds like a Disney princess. I. I don't care. This is beautiful. But her perspective on Natasha, for me, kind of fell in line with how I felt sort of about Chaffkin's perspective. To blow up the show more, which we were talking about in part one, which was like, we gotta go bigger. We gotta reach the back row. Everyone's gotta feel like they're a part of this samovar bar, which was like, that's kind. The. The whole reason why it's done environmentally is that. That's. That was Malloy's intention.

[Natalie Walker]

He.

[Matt Kopeck]

For those of you who are not listening as much to part one, when he was commissioned by Ars Nova to be their artist in residence and he was writing this show, he always. He wanted to make this musical. And the inspiration came from being in Russia and being in this bar where, like, there were musicians in one corner, there was a musician next to him. Like, everything was around you, so it wasn't an A stage. And he wanted that and to get that energy everywhere in the Imperial, which is a sizable theater. It's not the Broadway. It's not the Winter Garden, but it's sizable. Things had to get bigger. And some things, as we said in part one for me, got a little left by the wayside. And Danae, for me, I thought, was the biggest victim of that perspective of the production. Her. Natasha, for me, felt a little Disney princess. Bless you. As. But as a cartoon, not as a person. And I thought her act two was lovely. And she does the final scene with Pierre really beautifully. But that rug being pulled out from under her wasn't as effective for me because of the tone of the show and her performance of Act 1. Does that make sense?

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Kopeck]

Even if you disagree.

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah, well, I. I just. I just think that is mainly chalked up for me to the whole thing getting bigger and just, like, losing the intimacy that we had with Natasha that made us lock in to that character more. Like, I don't know. And obviously we'll never know because Philippa didn't do the Broadway run.

But I suspect a lot would have been lost even with Philippa doing it on that stage, on that scale. I think so much of the performance.

Acting wise in the tents was that you were so close to her, and she had a very intimate moment with, like, almost every.

Section of the theater where you were really feeling it along with her. And then moving into that larger space and doing. Even with the. The stuff in the round that they did try to do with the tables and things, it still was, like, much more proscenium than most things.

Not than most things. It was still much more proscenium. Proscenium staged than previous iterations is what I meant.

So, yeah, I just. I just think that that loss of. Loss of intimacy really made that role suffer the most. Because being that close to the ingenue in a show and sharing those, like having her look over her shoulder during the tea with Mary and go, what the fuck? To the person next to her, like, it just does not read the same way. And to have to have someone in that larger space do that same vibe of the gesture of the look over their shoulder and what the fuck. Suddenly it becomes this different thing when it has to get bigger, as opposed to just like, I'm watching this woman have this experience and she's really with me, as opposed to having to illustrate it for the entire room.

[Matt Kopeck]

Agreed. I think it also for me becomes a commenting on. And there is already commenting on in comment like, there's a cheekiness to that show.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

And I feel like when you do the hat on the hat, it becomes. It goes from being smart to becoming smart assy. And. And I don't think that the show is a smart ass, but I think when you play. When you play the intelligence up for more comedic effect than you get that distance. And I do, because I remember when Comet came to Broadway because there had been so much high from the tents and it got really great reviews and it was Groban's debut. A lot of people were confused by it and sort of felt distanced by it. And there became like a really great. There became a great divide for the great comet of people who got it and people who didn't. And I always, after I saw it on Broadway, I always felt a little empathy for the people who didn't get it because I was like, I understand what it is that's keeping you away, and I wish you had seen it in the tent.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

Because it's the same material. It's a lot of the same cast. It's like, it's just. And I don't know what the solution would have been because I don't know financially, like, what made the most sense for them in what theater or what theaters were available. But part of me is like, while the Imperial worked in a lot of ways, like the way that entry way in the lobby works, works really well for them. Very casino. Part of me was like, what is.

[Natalie Walker]

Like Circle in the Square.

[Matt Kopeck]

Circle Square would have been phenomenal. Yeah, that's whatever you wanted. But I was like, I was trying to think if they couldn't do a full blown casino at Circle in the Square, like, what would be the next option? Like, could. They made the Longacre work, which has like three tiers, and. And. And you could have that same intimacy or a much greater intimacy while still having like 1100 seats, which could still you a profit. Maybe. I don't know. I'm not a mathematician. There's a reason why I do this same.

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Kopeck]

But it's just something that I like to think about because then I see online videos from the Shanghai production, which is like, even bigger with that. Have you seen those videos?

[Natalie Walker]

Those are insane.

[Matt Kopeck]

Insane and like, impressive. But I'm like, girl, you are a football field away from the audience. How is this coming across? And then I see clips of the Dunmar Warehouse and I get why that production took off the way it did. Because I'm like, yeah, it was intimate. You were a part of it, alive with it.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes. No. I was so bummed that I didn't get to see it at the Donmar because that looked like, oh, yeah, this is what. This is what I crave.

[Matt Kopeck]

The only name I recognize from the Donmar was Jamie Moscato, who I believe went on to do Heather's and Great Gatsby. Don't quote me on that. I'm not. I'm not. There he is. There's the boy. Yes. He was Beatty. He was JD and Heather's. Guess he was gasping. Great Gatsby. I feel like he. Oh, he received a. An Olivier nomination for best actor in a musical for Great Comet. Well, well, well, well, what have we here? I feel like somebody won an Olivier for the Donmar production, and I want to figure out.

[Natalie Walker]

I think it was Sonia. I. I believe it was Sonia.

[Matt Kopeck]

That makes a lot of sense. Let me find.

[Natalie Walker]

Because that. That version of the song, I went.

[Matt Kopeck]

Oh, ooh, ooh, girl. Yeah, it was. It was Sonia. Oh, she was in Standing at Sky's Edge. Maybe I saw her in Standing at Sky's Edge. Who is this girl? And let me paste you and where are you at? Oh, my God. Yes, I know exactly who this is. She played the lesbian girlfriend in Standing at Sky's Edge. She was a lot of fun.

[Natalie Walker]

Great.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yes, great. When was the last time you were in London with Natalie?

[Natalie Walker]

I went at the end of the summer, but I didn't see much. I saw Oliver and I saw. Oh, I saw Evita twice. I saw. I went to see Evita twice because I was like, that's. That's where I really gotta be.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah, you and my friend Danny. I remember you both saw it twice. Did you. Do you already have two tickets or did you go back and buy a ticket?

[Natalie Walker]

I got. I went back and got a ticket after. Because I saw it. Yeah, I saw it the first night I got in. And then I was like, we gotta get back. We gotta get back. Because it was only. It was the last week. And I was like, I will be so sad if I don't experience this again. Just hearing this score, like, played like the rock score that it is, was such. Oh, such a thrill. I loved that production so much. Like, oh, Lord, I love that little diva. I love that little diva. What I really was obsessed with. With that vocal performance in Evita was like, the negotiation of. It was so smart from a storytelling perspective. Like, the way that she. I call it her weaponized Disney soprano. Like when she was seducing. When she was seducing Perron, she was being like, oh, who me? Who me and you. Just like. You see exactly why she's able to get the amount of power that she does with regard to his campaign and stuff, because she's not the wheel. You'll have power on a plate. Really does, like, sort of come out of nowhere a bit to him because he's. All of his experiences of her in direct contact until that point are her being in Disney soprano mode and then when she does her asides to the audience and they. Or at the end of.

I'd be surprisingly good for you when they go back into the good night and thank you mode, then she lets the. Then she Lets the tiger out of the cage. But, yeah, I just. She's brilliant in that voice. Oh. Oh, my God.

[Matt Kopeck]

That. That might be a star casting that I would be okay with for Great Comet.

[Natalie Walker]

For Great Comet. Yeah. That is what.

[Matt Kopeck]

That's. I think that's a good Natasha in this world.

[Natalie Walker]

Absolutely. The. Yeah. Because she. She similarly with Evita is, like, was able to do the thing of having one small look that goes, oh, I see where you are. I see where you are. Oh, Lord. Yeah.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah. She a talented. Boo.

[Natalie Walker]

Crazy.

[Matt Kopeck]

She crazy. But, yeah, I was just trying to think about that of. Of.

[Natalie Walker]

And the taste. I looked at her set list for her solo show, and I was like, go off. I only know she stars, and she did stars from Les Mis. She did Silver Spring.

Like, that's. That's. That's a bit of a slight for me to be doing Les Mis and Fleetwood Mac. Is. That rocks. Yeah. I hope she does. I think I. I'm sure she'll do it here.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah. The. I don't want to speak too much out, but this was sort of the thing with Comet. There was always a push and pull of when it was going to come, if it was ever going to come, because when it was, there was a. There was talks of, like, well, can they just keep it in the tent? Is that profitable? And became to be that it wasn't just because, like, they're Off Broadway has, like, times where it's fashionable, times when it's not. And Great Comet unfortunately chose a commercial run for off Broadway when, like, it was the most non fashionable. Yeah, like, they were fashionable. They were a limited run in me packing district. And then they, like, waited six months, moved to midtown, and, like, people stopped caring. And it was. It was frustrating because, like, it was hard to see it in the meatpacking district. It wasn't hard to see it wants to move to 45th street, which is heartbreaking. But then it became, okay, they want to move it to Broadway. Everyone just kept being like, when circle and square gonna be open? When circle and the square gonna be open? And the irony was that the talks were that Great Comet and Fun Home were gonna come to Broadway for the same season. Because when Great Comet was next door to the Imperial, Fun Home had just premiered at the public. And I was like, oh, this thing is fast tracking now. Like, they're going to go to the booth or something. And then the producers of Fun Home basically were like, we're going to wait a couple more months. We have a little bit of tinkering. We want to do. We don't have the theater we want. And everyone's like, what do you mean you don't have the theater you want? The booth is open. And Greg comment's like, we think we're going to go to art and, like, figure this out in a proscenium. And then the irony being Fun Home comes in the following season in Circle in the Square. And everyone's like, the fuck? And the Great Comet comes to Broadway one building over. Like, after you're in after one building over. But it's so fascinating to look back at the boards and, like, the hypothesis that people have of, like, what theater could go where and what do they think? And no one knows actually what's happening behind closed doors, because for a year, nobody knew that Great Comet was trying to figure out how to be in a proscenium house. Nobody knew Fun Home was trying to do in the round. And it shows you who actually knows what they're talking about. But it's nice when people are passionate. But that's sort of the. These are the shenanigans. These are the conversations that go into transfers. Everybody.

[Natalie Walker]

Mm. It's complicated. It's all complicated. And the on the boards, running their little mouths. And I devour all of it. I'm going.

[Matt Kopeck]

We have a problem.

[Natalie Walker]

What's everyone saying? What's everybody saying?

[Matt Kopeck]

We converse, she and I, about what you guys say on the board. Sometimes. Not in any mocking way. Some of you are masters of words. But.

[Natalie Walker]

And who raised me? Many raised me. Although I guess, like, the ones who really raised us are mostly moved. Moved on, Passed on.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yes. Well, Margot Channing, R.I.P. but pal Joey, that's 12 bars. You'll.

[Natalie Walker]

Where are you? Yeah, you're always. You're alive in our hearts forever.

Yeah. That's the best thing about being unemployed, is that I can be on Broadway World boards. Like, if I'm in a show, then I can't be on the Broadway World boards because I get scared that I'll catch a stray somewhere.

Which is maybe, like, also narcissist. I'm like, nobody cares. Nobody cares about me.

[Matt Kopeck]

It's always when you least expect it, though. Like the moment you let your guard down.

[Natalie Walker]

Exactly. Then it's somewhere I catch astray. But when I'm unemployedista, oh, baby, I can just. Irrelevance is beautiful. Irrelevance is actually so such an exquisite state of being because you really get to take in everything on the Broadway World message board specifically.

[Matt Kopeck]

It's a powerful tool to be relevant. It is a Such comforting tool to be irrelevant.

[Natalie Walker]

Like a warm bath.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yes. When you know that you won't see your name in print for a while, you're like, oh, God, I can just.

[Natalie Walker]

And then, ooh, soak. I'm Joan Allen in Pleasantville.

[Matt Kopeck]

Talk about getting that ink out, honey.

She just lifts her leg up.

[Natalie Walker]

Leg up, leg up. She's a dancer.

[Matt Kopeck]

She is Victoria, the white cat. Okay. I have a bone to pick with Mr. Malloy and Ms. Chafkin, though, about the Broadway production.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

Maybe it's just the fact that it was the final week. They had, like, five more shows to go. That abduction went on for a very long time. I got. And maybe if I was in the theater, I would be less bored, but I was at the Lincoln center library. There was a woman across the aisle for me who was having the time of her life. Watching for probably was Medea, but sounded like noises off. She was laughing so hard.

And I'm sitting there being like, Lucas Steele is still holding this note. We're still dancing. Natasha has not been kidnapped yet. And I'm like. And I'm sitting there going like, my house, in my house, in my house, in my house. And so I like. If I could sit down with them and be like, is this how long the abduction still is? And they were to say, yes. I go, cool. Is there anywhere we can shave off 90 seconds? Just 90. We don't need to chop it in half. I just need a little bit of fat out. Just a little bit. That's my. That's my only other major poem to pick because otherwise I like all of Dave's changes for Broadway writing wise. I love Dustin Ashes. I think it's a beautiful song.

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopeck]

Ties PR to the center. I like. I like all the changes to Sunday morning time for church. Although I do. Although I do like the Off Broadway. Come to church, dear. It sounds.

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah. Oh, God.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah.

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah. The only thing.

And, like, I do get it dramaturgically for a private and intimate life of Volkonski's.

I love the longer version on the. Like, I get totally the cul de sac aspect of it and why it was an easy place to shave off time. And perhaps dramaturgically works better, but there are just some little melodic things from the Off Broadway recording that I miss so much.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah.

[Natalie Walker]

The. The turn with the. They are there upon his head really gets me.

Pride of sacrifice gathers in my soul. They are there upon his head and he gets sickly losing. Oh, God.

[Matt Kopeck]

Do you ever have a performance where after Palkotski shouts Where are my glasses? Where my glasses. We're in the silence. Someone just goes, they're on your head.

[Natalie Walker]

I think I did see that happen once. Or like there was a kid. I want to say that, like, said it.

[Matt Kopeck]

It happened to me twice in the tent downtown. It didn't happen, but both times in Midtown, in the tent it happened. And it was one person. It was like a very quiet, they're on your head. And everybody laughed. And then Shayna had to just keep plying forward.

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Kopeck]

The next time it was someone like, just very like exasperated because. Because, you know, that bit, that bit of like, where are my glasses?

[Natalie Walker]

Goes off for a while. Yeah. And it's like increasingly the orchestration is. Is getting more frantic and stressful.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah. It's chaotic and. Yeah. And. And. And then the crashes on that silence. And there. And Shayna, God bless her, used to hold that silence for a while. And in that silence. Yeah. The third time someone was like, they're on your head. And it was just. I just remember sitting there like, do you really think that Shayna forgot her line? She's like, she's gonna say it. Calm down, it's happening.

[Natalie Walker]

We're gonna get there. We're getting there.

[Matt Kopeck]

I got you, baby. I do prefer the entryway from Natasha to the Bukowski house of the. I hope they like me. Everyone has always liked me. And right into the Mary thing. Look at that. Because it always. It always put Natasha a little on edge.

[Natalie Walker]

But.

[Matt Kopeck]

But I do enjoy the change of putting that line into the everyday life of the house because it. It's actually a quite funny line now.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes, yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

And. Yeah. And reminds people like, this is why we're dealing with this seven minute song right now. Because Natasha will be coming. Three minutes.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes, yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

I forgot. I forgot. I always forget about this. I always forget in the scene with Natasha and Pierre when the music cuts out and he speaks dialogue, like the only dialogue of the whole night.

[Natalie Walker]

God, it's so. That moment is so beautiful to me and so massively important. And I used to, if I. Because I'm not a good actor, I will have to go to things that make me cry in.

Cultural objects sometimes if I have to like sort of conjure it out of nowhere for a self tape or something like that. And for a long time I would just start thinking about if I were not myself with a bright. Oh God. It really. It worked like a charm every fucking time for a while until I used it too much. And then my body learned how to. How to get through it without Just falling to pieces. But I just. I think it's so. It's so smart to come out of an opera and have this be the simplest.

The way that we talk about musical theater. And you say when you're feeling too much, that you can't speak anymore and you have to sing. And that in the world of this show, that is so bombastic, that is so music as the through line, as the method of conver. Of communication. That Pierre still is awkward in this world, and that the most vulnerable he can be after having sung with everyone the whole night.

Is that all of the music goes away. And suddenly it's the most exposed, awkward thing. But you say the exact most beautiful thing in that moment. It's just. It really.

Really just guts me. Just guts me thinking about it, thinking about it now. I'm. It's just.

It's. It's so. It's such a perfect moment of musical storytelling in the specific absence of music in that. In that moment.

[Matt Kopeck]

And I think that's why moments like this are why people like us do keep coming back to musical theater and keep defending it to people, go, oh, it's not realistic. People don't sing. I'm like, it is a heightened versions of ourselves and a more exposed version of ourselves, and it can reach you chemically, in a way. Lindsay Ellis always says musicals are things that your head doesn't understand, but your heart does. And I think that that is very true. And it's. The idea with this is like the fact that that music gets taken away is the most chemical way for an audience to understand. Oh, we're. We are raw now. Like it is. There's no ornamentation. It is just this. Yeah. What are the actual lines? Do you. Do you know? Do you remember them exactly?

[Natalie Walker]

If I were not myself, but the brightest, handsomest, best man on earth, and if I were free, I would get down on my knees this minute and ask you for your hand and for your love.

[Matt Kopeck]

The way says and for your love is just like, so. It's. It's so childlikely pleading, you know?

[Natalie Walker]

Yes. Yes. Oh, God.

[Matt Kopeck]

Because the truth is, he doesn't really know love. He has a father who favored him, but we don't really know much about what that relationship was. Was like. When he was young, people kind of put up with him because of his dad, and then he gets rich, and people fawn over him to get the money, and that's why he's with Helene. But, like, he doesn't have genuine love from someone.

[Natalie Walker]

Right?

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah. And to see someone like Natasha. I mean, it's also. What I love about that scene is that he's not entirely sure what he's planning to experience when he sees Natasha, because this is when everything's gone down. The elopement has, you know, got up in flames, and Natasha's reputation could possibly be ruined. And Anatole has left, and Andre comes home, and he and Pierre have this, you know, reunion. And. And Andre. Andre sounds just so resigned, and it's not, like, hateful, but he is clearly hurt and mad at Natasha for what she's done while not fully acknowledging, like, she is almost half your age and you left her alone for a year. Like, she's impressionable. Not that she's fully faultless. She does make choices, but it's like, dude, you're not. She's on your level of, like, life experience. Something was gonna happen, right? And Pierce says, like, when he comes to see Natasha, part of him expected to hate her and then despise her for this thing she did. This monstrous thing. Only to fully. When you're. It's that thing of, like, when we're online and we're yelling at people, and how could they say this? To do this? They become this inanimate object, not a person. It's this random thing. It's what makes hate mail happen. And then you see the real person affected by all this. It changes a lot. Like, you can still have an opinion on the actions, but how you treat them changes. I think. I think it's why all of my theater friends don't hate me whenever I have an opinion on a show, because then they see me and they go, oh, right, you're just you. I can't be mad at you. Look at you. Look at you, tiny child.

[Natalie Walker]

You're going through it. We're all going through it. We're all going through it. He had gastritis. Leave him alone.

[Matt Kopeck]

Not bringing my goddamn baggage onto this podcast. Natalie Walker. We talk about my play and the man who inspired my play and nothing more. We do not talk about the gas writers. We do not talk about the food poisoning.

[Natalie Walker]

We do not talk about it in this house.

[Matt Kopeck]

In my house. In my house. You know what I'm saying? Or not.

[Natalie Walker]

It's.

[Matt Kopeck]

It's. We do not talk about the tortilla chip that almost ruined my life. We don't talk about that shit. Oh, my God. I was not expecting Gastronis.

[Natalie Walker]

I don't know where it came from in me either. I certainly was not planning on exposing you in that fashion. But I'm just saying everyone is. Everyone is dealing with something.

We can all be gentle with each other when we. When we speak face to face.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yes.

[Natalie Walker]

But, yeah, the. The. The way that he goes into that conversation, almost the. The way that he goes into that conversation.

Knowing the types of women that Anatole has been with before and knowing how easy to yell at those women would be because they're frivolous, because they're any type of. Any woman that would be with Anatol is.

Bad in some way, is, like, just as bad as he is in some way to Pierre. And so he goes in thinking Natasha is. Whatever fondness he felt for Natasha in the past.

Clearly she's grown up to be someone like his wife.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah.

[Natalie Walker]

And then when he actually sees her nightgown, braid completely drawn and sick over this experience, it's a whole. A whole different thing that he's been confronted with.

Like, when you. When you psych yourself up to go.

Talk to someone or. Or do something, and then you see them, and it's just like, oh.

I'm gonna. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna leave.

Yeah, it's just. It's.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah, yeah.

[Natalie Walker]

No, he hear Natasha. And the simplicity of that little repeating arpeggio is just so. It's so gutting. And I did a. In the 54 show I did with Heath back in the day, which was like, maybe right after Comet closed, we did Pierre Natasha as an encore, and Heath played it on the piano while also doing the lines. And it was mainly. I was just like. Because they never got to go on for Pierre. They had, like, maybe one Pierre put in, I want to say, but never actually got to do it. And so I was like, can you. This is basically me doing Mary Sue Self Insert fanfic at this point that I'm like, you actually were in the show, but I just want to do Natasha in this. In this scene. And it really. Oh, it was my dream come true. So, so, so wonderful.

[Matt Kopeck]

I mean, you're about to pay it forward with me.

[Natalie Walker]

You know, I know.

By this point.

[Matt Kopeck]

Everyone will know what we're talking about, but we're gonna. We're still gonna be coy about it. It's fine. Yes. Natalie Walker is making my dreams come true with a specific scene. Yeah, I think you're right. It's. I. Guys, I swear to God, I really don't mean to keep bringing up, like, the play. I. I was bringing up a lot in the past, like, as a running joke of the. You know, just. Oh, did you Hear I wrote a little bit. But the point is, is that when I was going through my turmoil, I. Because I was not in communication with him, my brain went to a place of viewing him in a certain light and what he was going through in a certain light that I was like, if I ever do see him, like, oh, my God, I can't wait to make him suffer. Eventually when he reconnected, I find out, like, he was also going through a lot of turmoil. I would argue more so than me.

And it was like, very learned. I was a very educational experience of, oh, this man who really hurt me in a very awful way in some ways, like, kind of paid for it in a lot of ways. And I can't begrudge him that. Like, you see someone who's trying to build themselves back up after this shattering moment because again, we're all just people. There is one person that I still very much talk shit about because I've never actually met them, Natalie. And when I, if I ever do, I'm sure it will change how I talk about that person.

[Natalie Walker]

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. The longer that you go without actually interacting with person and you just see specifically with social media, when you see someone that is so annoying on social media. I have like a couple of friends that I love so much in person. And the way that they are, like, it won't even be on social media, but just like the way they text or something, it's just like, requires instant responses and is over and over. And I just get overwhelmed by that. And so then I just go to a place of like, I hate this person in my phone. I love this person in real life. Don't be in my phone. Don't be a person in my phone anymore. I can't interact with you as a person in my phone. Goodbye. It's just such a. Because I'll forget based on how they are as a person in my phone, and I'll go, God, I have to have a friend breakup. Like, what are we gonna do? And then I see them in person and I'm like, oh, this is lovely. I was ready to wring your fucking neck. And then I see that you are a person in the world, and I see where the behavior of the person in my phone is coming from. And it's that you're scared. And we all respond to fear in different ways. And I. And I'm sure me as a person in your phone, you're like, I'm gonna ring this girl's neck because she's so avoidant or whatever. But then we come together and it goes, oh, oh.

[Matt Kopeck]

Can I share? May I be a little vulnerable for a second, Ms. Natalie?

[Natalie Walker]

Always, please.

[Matt Kopeck]

Thank you. If I may, I. I talk about this sometimes on the pod. Like, the things in musicals and plays and movies that always get me are when people show up for each other, because my brain is such. In a lot of ways, I am, like, up here. And it's why I kind of want to play Natasha. Like, I want to inhabit that energy of, like, everyone has always liked me.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

My brain has a hard time remembering in my life when people showed up for me and people have, like, It's. I'm not a sad sack.

[Natalie Walker]

It's.

[Matt Kopeck]

I have to remind myself of all the times, like, a friend has done good by me and all these things, because my brain just goes to all the times that they haven't or all the times that I've been let down. And so I think with someone like Pierre, by being so isolated this entire show, it's easy when you're alone and you're on your own and your brain already kind of goes to those places of thinking, everyone is awful, everyone is cynical. No one. Everyone is selfish. And people, when they make mistakes, they laugh it off and they're frivolous, especially with the people who are right in front of him, like a Helene or an Anatol. And then to reconnect with Natasha and see someone who made a mistake is paying gravely for it. And.

He is doing the courtesy of showing up for her. And I'd like to think that in some ways, she shows up for him when he lays his heart bare and she doesn't. She smiles and sort of is, like, receptive to it and obviously can't say anything other than that because, like, he is not free in that moment. And she is kind of a little ruined and physically fighting back from almost death.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

But it's like the small kindness of, like, hearing it, appreciating it, and, like, actually absorbing it and not just shaking it off.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes. That is the actual absorption of the moment, of letting it land, letting it really land. And that's also, you know, on. On Dave, that's on Rachel, of really giving that moment the breath that it deserves and. And letting Natasha take it in and give that genuine smile that is, like, a generous act in that moment. To. To not look away. Yes, to. Not. To. Not. To your point. To not look away. To not laugh it off, to not brush it away, but to really accept it and take it in from this person and. And to see A person that you've known for years and years in this entirely new. And that that's always possible. I think there's a beautiful. A beautiful possibility in it. And without knowing.

It's beautiful if you know how the rest of the book plays out, and it's beautiful if you don't. And you just see it as this contained.

Moment of real grace and compassion between two people, that someone can always surprise you. I think we've been talking about what that moment is, and there are a million ways to read it. And there are a million ways to read Pierre's reaction going into the finale. And I think now talking through all of this with you, such a massive part of it is.

You can be surprised by someone you've known for decades, at any moment, at any moment, they could say something that changes your life, changes your relationship to them, to yourself. Not necessarily romantically, but just that changes you on a. On a molecular level. And it's always possible. It's always possible if you leave your house, if you talk to someone, if you ask them a question or tell them a thing, if you let yourself be vulnerable with them. And that's such a. Such a small miracle.

[Matt Kopeck]

Absolutely. And especially in this moment, because up until now, conversations between characters aren't always about human need or human. Or human need. Because without with interactions like Anatol, it's a seduction. With Helene, it's manipulation. With Maria, her. Her concern for Natasha, while she does love her and favor her, a lot of the conversation is about society and status. Like, she's more concerned. Andre marrying Natasha is a great match because he will save the family, right and all. And Natasha running out for Anatol ruins her reputation. And there's also something like Sonya talks about as well. Even Sonya alone, while she cares for Natasha and loves her. And that's part of the plea of that song. A lot of it is. Also, I will not let you ruin your life because by doing this, all the things that you have right now will go away. And Pierre making that statement to Natasha, it's not about, I would do this to save your reputation. I would. It's not because you're the most beautiful person in the world. It's not because you're of high status. It's not because you've done something wrong. It's just you as a person, you here standing in front of me. I feel this way about you and I would, without hesitation, and I would ask this of you if you could. And that is just such a.

I don't know, it's you're in a relationship more than I am. I'm in a relationship with me myself and I. But in the few times that I have had that intimacy with someone of, of you're. You're seeing me at my worst, you know, the worst I've done. And you're still saying that you. That you would with me?

[Natalie Walker]

Yes, yes, Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[Matt Kopeck]

How do you mean? You're the top.

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah, you're an arrow caller.

[Matt Kopeck]

You're the top.

[Natalie Walker]

You're a coolage dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet. Yes. Yeah, no, and I like, I will. I will start crying because I love.

My boyfriend and I have been with for.

Eight years now and he truly has seen me at my worst. We both have had.

An experience where like, we first like kissed a decade ago and then both went through like a weird period where we weren't speaking and it was very dramatic. And then we came back together eight years ago and it's been.

It's been just like a relationship built on trust throughout. But during that time, we really have seen each other in periods where like, when we were first getting together eight years ago, both of us were like, okay, we're on the rocket ship. We're like on the rocket ship to success. And we're both gonna be so successful so fast, like, we're about to be fucking 30 under 30 every, like, everywhere hubris. And then had really. Both had really massive sort of.

Crash outs where it wasn't happening, which then made us so depressed that then we spiraled even further down and we couldn't figure it out. And to love someone through that because especially at the beginning of the relationship, I was like, oh, great. What I bring to this relationship, even when I'm being like, annoying and crazy, is that, like, I'm gonna be a really big deal or whatever and.

I'm gonna be like a social butterfly queen. And he'll be so happy about it and vice versa with him. And to both be in places where we were like, oh, no one wants me to do the thing that I thought I was put on the planet to do. I feel like I am ugly. I feel like I am unlovable. And to love someone through that, to be with someone through that is such a. Is such a beautiful.

Such a beautiful gift. And there were. There have been so many moments over the course of our relationship where I've been like, melodramatic. My life is over. I have brought shame to myself and everyone around me. And that is at the heart of any time I've been there is that like why I stay with someone this long is that I know he will always be there to do that for me, to give me that.

You should be with the brightest, handsomest, best person on the planet and that's what you deserve. Just so you know. And it's always very matter of fact and it is like that matter of factness in that line and the line reading like that. He really doesn't let.

Maloy doesn't especially his, his reading of it. He really doesn't let sentiment or emotionality really like seep out until that final for your love. If I keep going, it will stop being blunt. And a fact that I'm telling you, I'm telling you a fact that's what you need to know is I'm not. It's. It's just. And that is, that's what love is.

[Matt Kopeck]

That is. That is so Pierre of I, I would have this talk with my mom a lot of like when you're getting a gift for somebody and, and you have to think about what it is that they would want or when you do it when you host a thing. And like everyone says thank you afterwards. Maybe like not everyone followed with an email the next day. I was like, not everyone is going to respond in the way that you would Pierre saying that it's not Kit Connor doing a pull up to kiss Rachel Zegler, but it is where Pierre is at. That is who he is and that is his declaration. And when you can see that from him. And like Natasha knows Pierre pretty well. Like they haven't seen each other in a few years but they're old family friends and so she knows sort of his vibe. So to hear him say those words in that way, she knows that he means it and she knows how much it takes out of him to say it. Right. Like it's, it's the. I like it's why I always disagreed with Sondheim when he said like, oh, the main character in Do I Hear a Waltz Is hard to crack because she doesn't sing. She's so closed off emotionally. Like those are the people who sing the most.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes. Because they're so much going on under.

[Matt Kopeck]

It's a River inside, to quote Monica Geller. And it's just like it, if they ever let it out, it just would gush. And so like you play with that of how much they do let out, how much they're afraid of. And Pierre is that kind of guy and he has like his two biggest like.

His two biggest, like, pleas to God are his opening song and then Dust and Ashes. And then I would argue that, like, the club is an active scene for him of just, like, his malaise and trying to do something productive, which results in the duel. And then the great Comet finale is him kind of finding.

Equilibrium within himself. Of. Yeah, it's. It's the. I'm sure you've seen that clip that everyone shared around of, like, Aubrey Plaza talking about her grief with her husband. Of, like, it's always there.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

And it's.

[Natalie Walker]

And it's learning, like, looking into it and. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Kopeck]

Like, there's. There's never a day when you're not gonna be depressed, but there. But it can be something you live with and not something you're fighting against. And if you learn how to live with it, you don't define yourself by it. And you can then have other emotions besides that. It becomes part of the salad. Not the only ingredient. I. The number of times Natalie Walker, where I have been, like, walking to the Q train and just, like, feel a lump in my chest, where I'm, like, I'm about to cry for no reason other than probably something two weeks ago that I refused to address is now, like, finding its way through me. But I'm also busy, and I'm happy because I'm, like, being productive. It's.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes. Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah.

[Natalie Walker]

As opposed to the. The day is when it's just. There's no reason to get out of bed. What is the point of anything. Yeah. To just let it be part of it. To go, oh, I'm sad, but I'm. I put on. Put on pants.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah.

[Natalie Walker]

I have shoes on. I have shoes on. And I'm out side of the apartment.

[Matt Kopeck]

You need to meet me where I'm at right now, because I can only meet you this far.

[Natalie Walker]

Oh, wait. Great. Now I know. Now I know about what the diva that I'll have close out, because that just gave me an idea. It's a good one that you'll like.

[Matt Kopeck]

I'm happy. I'm thrilled.

Are there characters we haven't really talked about much that you like, talk about? We talked about Natasha a great deal. Pierre a great deal. We haven't talked that much about Anatol, but I also think there's not much to him, like, he doesn't have that much inner life. What you see is what you get.

[Natalie Walker]

Right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's. Yeah. The. The sex alien aspect of it. The prince.

As in Purple Rain, not in Disney Prince.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yes. I was trying to Think of, like, who I would want to see as an Anatol. And when we. When we said Zegler for Natasha, partner was like, ooh, would Diego be a good Anatol? But I actually think he's a little too classically hot. Like. Yes, yes.

[Natalie Walker]

No, I think it has to be like, someone you are like, I have never seen a person like this.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah, right. The way that they do that entrance.

[Natalie Walker]

It has to be like fully from space. Crazy.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah.

I think. I think when you're thinking of Anatol, somebody who has some masculine qualities but can't be considered 100 masculine, that's the alien element, right?

[Natalie Walker]

Of, like, totally.

[Matt Kopeck]

It's very.

[Natalie Walker]

There's an androgyny.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah, Androgyny. Yeah. Like Henwig Origin of Love. Like, we used to be both sexes. And like, that is what Anathole represents of like, I can flirt with every gender in this room and every, you know, sexuality. Come at me, bro. Like, I'm. I'll make you all want me to finger you. Like, it's just. It's.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

That's his magic.

[Natalie Walker]

I can't think of any musical theater people I want to finger me. And that's really hard. Difficult.

[Matt Kopeck]

It's difficult.

[Natalie Walker]

It's hard to come up with people that have that. That have that effect on me.

[Matt Kopeck]

I will say Diego was the first time I ever had, like, a MILF reaction to an actor, which was when he was in Sunset Boulevard. So I. I saw him play Artie the first time, because the second time I saw it, he was on for Joe. And then the third time I saw it, he had left the show to go rehearse Evita. So the first time I see it, they do too much and love to care and they do that giant projection of Diego with a tear running down his face. And I remember the first thought of my brain was beautiful tears from such a beautiful boy. And I just stopped and I went, I'm a 50 year old barfly.

[Natalie Walker]

Beautiful. That's. That's it.

[Matt Kopeck]

That's it. Yeah. I'm trying to think. I can't think of anybody anymore. Yeah. Anatol is just. Yeah, he's sex alien. What you see is what you get. The fun fact about him is that his very final note was a joke that Dave Moy wrote in the script because he didn't know how to end Anathol's exit.

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopeck]

And Lucas Steele is also a counter hunter, so he just did it.

[Natalie Walker]

Did it. Oh, God.

[Matt Kopeck]

We could talk about Dolokov, but he is not too important.

[Natalie Walker]

No. Oh, God, he's so. He was so hot. I was obsessed with him as well.

[Matt Kopeck]

That was another sexual awakening for me. So I also.

[Natalie Walker]

The plan for Natalie was also, like, enunciation, patter, Pattersong sleigh.

[Matt Kopeck]

Oh, preparation.

[Natalie Walker]

True. Yeah. Preparation goes off.

[Matt Kopeck]

I. Okay. Pin in preparations for a quick second. As I just say that Dolokov. He never did it for me in the tent, and I didn't remember him on Broadway. But then watching it at the library the other day, Natalie, when I tell you I was watching, I went, has he always been this. Have I just. I just woke up today to find this out.

[Natalie Walker]

Yep. And the thing is, he has. He really, really has.

Yeah.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah, it was. There was. There's a specific shot because they. It's like multiple cameras for this one, because usually at the library, it's two, sometimes three if you're lucky. This, I'm pretty sure, was, like, six cameras, because they. They had to. But there's a shot of him and Amber during the duel when they're in the club, and they're like. He's like.

[Natalie Walker]

They're so hot together. No, Nick Choxy. Nick Choxian and Amber Gray are.

I went, please see me from across the bar and like my vibe. Please see me from across the bar and like my vibe. I'm begging you, please.

[Matt Kopeck]

They don't call you the Finger trap for nothing, Natalie.

But I just. Like that shot of him. I just saw that. I was like, I've never been more jealous of Amber Gray's neck in my life. It was so hot. But no, it's sick. Preparations. There's a moment of preparations. It means we get right. It's right towards the end, right before we get to Balaga. And it's the very double here. Feel how it beats. And that. Doo, doo, doo, doo, doo. I just remember every time I saw it in the tent, I always thought it was the coolest moment when I'm gonna keep calling her Pippa. From now on, I'll never meet her, and I'm gonna keep calling her Pippa. Pippa from across the tent, just, like, walking along the banquette. And then the blue light hits her as Lucas sings to her. And she looks up and looked at him, and it was this sort of like, it's not Natasha as she actually is. It's as Anatol is, like, envisioning her. And her look to him is like, almost like a. Oh, I forgot you were there. Look at you, Cutie. And, like, it's a more sensual Natasha than we've ever seen and it was so. I always thought it was the way the music worked, the lighting worked and her attitude. I looked forward to it every time. Every time. It was so good. Brava. Chafkin, Malloy and Sue. All of M. King.

[Natalie Walker]

What a. What a delicious deli. And King. And King. And also, like, as we're sort of winding down, I feel like more even than actors. I'm just like, let's put some respect on Paloma Young for those costumes. Yeah, those costumes were incredible. I. I would think about Natasha's coat all the time.

Everyone looked so beautiful. And also, I think it's very, very hard to costume.

A show that is.

Set in olden times, but with that modern score and not have any element at odds with each other. Like, the costumes felt of period, but also very modern and in a much.

Slyer way than even. Like, I think Hamilton comes along after and has a sort of similar vibe costume wise, but is a little more abstracted with it being like the white and like just the corsetry and the knickers or whatever. Yeah.

But those, those comic costumes I, I really think are so, so iconic and beautiful. Mimi Lean set design. Because we've been talking about the. All the curvature. Highways and byways and the curvature. I mean, that design team really nailed it. Created an entire world. And especially because I believe it was the entire design team the whole way up from Casino. So especially to.

Create that out of nowhere, sort of out of thin air in a space is just really mind boggling to me. What they did to create the world of that show, I think with Hamilton.

[Matt Kopeck]

It is a more abstract feeling. I think with also Hamilton, there was a clear divide between the ensemble and the principals. The principals have much more like period appropriate costumes. And then the ensemble is that. Whereas in Great Comet, everyone's sort of in it together. And what I kind of get from the costumes, I would say like the costumes and the set design are an inverse of each other, which is that the set design, it feels modern and chic with touches of the old world enough to keep on. Like, enough to keep reminding you where you actually are. And the costumes feel a little more old world with a touch of the modern cheek to remind you we're not totally doing this like, as period appropriate. So like Natasha's coat feels. I mean, it's obviously not super appropriate, but it feels more old world. But then the way that they would do a. Philippa's hair felt a little more modern.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

Or like Helena's dress would be. Or I guess it's Helene. They usually say Helene, but I think in the novel it's Helena, but Helene. Like, I look at the way Emma Gray is dressed as Helene, and it feels either like Helene on her drunk night or like Helene's daughter took mommy's dress in pearls and dressed up while mommy was out of. Out was out on the town. Like these appropriate clothes that don't totally fit in the world as it would be and like as the world as a child would see it.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes. It's just. It's so thrilling and so smart.

Yeah.

[Matt Kopeck]

No, I love it. I love it. And how. How comfy, cushy to be wearing a nightgown for all of act two.

My God. Yeah. We would be remiss if we didn't just talk a little bit about. Because we have to as part of the legacy. Because we're getting to the legacy. Comment. First things first. Great Comet did have the most Tony nominations of its season with 12. It ultimately won two I and then closed at the end of the summer. I was watching. Are you familiar with the YouTube channel waiting in the Wings or Wait in the Wings?

[Natalie Walker]

Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yes. Very smart young guy. I love his passion. He makes very good videos. He is not immune to what I call the Netflix documentary syndrome, which is that sometimes he omits facts or he mixes around timeline for a specific narrative. I eventually decided to let it go until I watched his video on what is a flop for preparation for this episode. Because Josh Groban was the thumbnail. It's like, oh, what does he have to say about Great Comet? And with Great Comet, he talks about the fallout with the Manny Patinkin casting and sort of like, how could a show that got rave reviews had the most Tony nominations and selling out nightly? How could it be lose 75% of its investment? And how could it fall apart so quickly? And this is where I was like, I really wish you were here when this was happening. Because the conversation, the conversation became the situation should never have been this precarious that if Mandy pulled out, they were going to close.

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopeck]

I remember was anytime Josh wasn't on, the grosses dipped by a lot.

[Natalie Walker]

Absolutely.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yes.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

My hot take. And this is not to do with Danae's performance necessarily. I do think if Philippa had chosen to do great Common and not only right after Hamilton, it would have helped immensely with the box office and I also think would have helped him with the Tonys. Just my hot take. But yeah. Oh.

[Natalie Walker]

Because people would. Because we. Philippa would have a Tony.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah.

[Natalie Walker]

If. If she had done It. I think I personally, I think because she had. By the time it transferred, she had gotten enough goodwill from Hamilton. And because people. A lot of people had seen her in the previous iterations of Comet, and I think people would have been the way that, like, the Oscars are. Like, we loved this performance. We'll give you. We'll give it to you on the next one. Like, even people that hadn't seen her in Comet in previous iterations would have loved, like, Hamilton was such a. Such a juggernaut. And then. And she was phenomenal and originated an incredible ballad that will be sung by girlies for the rest of time. And I think people loved her in it. And that role just isn't the role that gets the.

[Matt Kopeck]

Gets the Tony.

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah, Gets the Tony. But they would have been like, oh, you can do this too. And you were in the big, massive thing from last year. Yeah, here you go, ma'. Am.

[Matt Kopeck]

We won.

[Natalie Walker]

Who won that year?

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah, that commissar. Like, it would have been Josh Groban and the girl from Hamilton who, like Hamilton, is still the thing. Yes, here we go.

[Natalie Walker]

Who won that year in lead actress?

[Matt Kopeck]

It would have been Bette Midler for hello Dolly.

[Natalie Walker]

Probably a foregone conclusion, actually, but would have. Philippa would have put up a big and mighty fight, I think.

[Matt Kopeck]

I think it would have been a major possibility, more so than anyone else, especially if with Philippa, that became an even bigger event and Great Comet became something that people were excited to award. Like, if they had gotten a score Tony and an orchestrations Tony. It's so much easier to give to award Philip and make it like a nice round five. And then it becomes Great Comet, the winner of five Tony Awards. And you can work with that.

The big thing that people learned with Great Comet, and it's so fun how people have short memories and forget these things, was Great Comet was a case of really terrible producing, of learning that the budget. It sounds ridiculous to say, like, oh, my God, this $18 million budget. How insane. And when now we're like, oh. Subs cost 19. But. But at the time, that was considered a high price tag for this show, which was really risky. And what we learned was, like, a solid, like 4 or 5 million of the budget actually was not for Broadway. It was. They were roping in the previous cost of, I think, art and casino into it. They were trying to pay off as much of it as they could. So if they hadn't done that, the budget would have been like 14 million, which is still high, but, like, better chance at Earning, and they had not. They had underestimated just how important Groban would be to the grosses. So they had money making weeks with him, and anytime he was out, it was a money losing week straight up. And they were putting. They were investing extra money into getting more coverage, which is always great. But like, that rose the cost. They were marketing it all the time. And they underestimate. They again, overestimated Groban's appeal and underestimated. Underestimated Groban's appeal, overestimated Oak's appeal. Because O comes in post Hamilton, they think what we're thinking with Philippa. He's from Hamilton. Here we go.

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopeck]

The difference is you and I are saying Philippa, three months post leaving Hamilton, who's also, by the way, a Tony nominee and like, the main actress of the show. Oak, who's not a Tony nominee, but, like, gets famous for doing the show a full year after he leaves. The. The bloom is a little off the roads by that point.

[Natalie Walker]

Right.

[Matt Kopeck]

This is why we should be producers, but we're not. Yes. And. And I won't go into any more details about sort of the backstage antics. I was not there. As I mentioned, I have friends involved with the show. They've told me, but they also didn't give me their permission to divulge. It was not super smooth. We'll just put it at that. And what's upsetting is the optics of what happened with the Mandy narrative for me, were it became a narrative that it never should have been and never was meant to be. And let's just say the man who started it, I don't think had honest political intentions.

I will say something that's gonna be a little controversial. This is not a common thing specifically, but it's tied to it. Natalie, if I may.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

And you can disagree if you want.

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopeck]

Many times when I see actors post about something that they find, quote, unquote, problematic, it tends to be for something that they could potentially have been in and were not.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes, yes.

Yes, yes. That's why. Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Kopeck]

It's. It's. It's just.

[Natalie Walker]

I. Yeah, I try to. I. Part of me getting off of Twitter and stuff is that, like, I love to run my mouth off. And there was. There was, like, a point where I was like, no, but even during my, like, Mousey era, I.

I really weighed in on, like, I thought it was fucked up whether, like, whatever anyone felt about Amar Ramasar as a person, I then had people that were like, he's really kind and, like, is trying to make amends or whatnot. I thought it was crazy work. The way that, like, what he was accused of at ABT versus then being.

Versus then Scott Rudin being like, this is the guy for this west side Story revival that we are fronting is like full of 20 year olds making their Broadway debuts. That is what I found maddening. And so I was like this. I will never be in west side Story. I could never be in west side Story. So this has nothing to do with me other than someone that is watching a thing that I'm just like. And it was never commented on, which was my thing. Like, even if, like, behind closed doors, there have been conversations about it, I think it was crazy work to just put that announcement out and be like. And that's normal. As opposed to being like, look, this is what's going on. He's making amends for the thing. Like this. We have guardrails in place and all of the women involved in this production are on board. But to just sort of be like, this is happening regardless.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah.

[Natalie Walker]

So beyond the train or not. And then, I mean, it closed.

[Matt Kopeck]

And then Covid and then the pandemic happened.

[Natalie Walker]

And yeah, the. The Hazmat suit special didn't pan out. Yeah, but. Yeah, but I do. So I. I do.

I always look a bit askance when it's people talking about a production or a casting that's like a role they could play or something, where it's like them weighing in on this issue potentially means, like, they could get the job.

[Matt Kopeck]

You know, I. I was talking to someone yesterday who took umbrage with the term that people like to say of, like, it was my first time seeing myself on stage. And what that meant to me, which is ultimately, it's meant to be the pure thing of, like, how representation matters and seeing that you matter because someone like you is up there. That's great. This person took a little on bridge with it because he was like, it's almost exclusively actors who tell those stories. And it's like. And that is how we got here today, of me giving you my gift. And.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

And I'm like, yes. I think there's like a little like one foot in both. Because in order, in order to be an actor, like, you do have to have a little bit of ego. It's the only way you can get on stage and present yourself that way. Right. Same thing being a writer. Same me doing this goddamn fucking podcast. Natalie Walker, like, the ego. I have to say, hey, who wants to hear me talk?

[Natalie Walker]

Listen to My opinions, please.

[Matt Kopeck]

Who wants to hear my gastritis ridden body and laryngitis riddled throat? Talk about race, baby. No, like, which is not what this is, but still it. But the idea of we're learning this now with a lot of people with social media, like, you don't always have to make a statement a you don't necessarily know. If you know all of it, it may not be your battle to fight. And God bless her, Ms. Cynthia Revo finding out with Wicked part one. Oh, some things I can just tell my friends over happy hour and not take to social media.

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopeck]

And I'm having the same thing. I am having a, an experiment with my close friends of which Ms. Walker is on, on Instagram. I've just, I've just. Yes, a gift, but just like how bold I can be sometimes with things I want to say. When it can be just you and me in person and when I'm like, I do want to share this with 30 people.

[Natalie Walker]

Right?

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah.

[Natalie Walker]

And I've been going through the same thing, like my close Friends. You've been on My Close Friends when I was posting all the time on Close Friends, like, complaining. And I still will do it from time to time, but I've been having that same thing of just being like, do I want there to be like a screenshot of this even? Like, I trust everyone on my close friends, but.

Do like, is this something that I need to put, you know, pen to paper, quote unquote about? Like, can this just be. Let me keep a notes app for myself that, like, the next time we're getting drinks, I can be like, oh, and this, did you see that the other week? And maybe I will still care about it, but maybe I will have been like, oh, I actually don't care about that anymore because realistically a day will pass and I'll go, why was I so fired up about this? Yeah, that's crazy.

[Matt Kopeck]

It's the immediate. Yeah, it's, it's. But that's sort of like human nature of knowing when it's important to fan the flames. And I think with something like Broadway.

There are plenty of things to take umbrage with and go, hey, not cool. A lot of them are not things to go to the mat for, especially because what it then dilutes when it is time to go to the mat. And so that always bothers me. And especially with Comet, where this was a show that has been so openly multiracial with its casting the entire time from the jump, they were like, we do not want an all white cast. Yeah. We want different people, we want different ethnicities, we want talent, we want, you know, gender, all these things. I'm like, brah fucking vo. And then when this happens, people who do not know the history of Great Comet, people like Cynthia Revo, who did not know the history of Great Comet, just sees this one thing. Because one person who happens to be friends with one person does not like that this is happening to their friend. This happens. And that is not about anyone involved with the production. These are about two specific people on Twitter. But that is the case of you.

Ignorance may be bliss, but ignorance also makes me see exactly what your asshole looks like. And I'm not always in the mood to look at that.

[Natalie Walker]

Beautifully said.

[Matt Kopeck]

Thank. Oh, my God. Thank you so much. To tie this back to Grey Comet and not even just this drama, but the show itself, it takes Natasha, this bold mistake, to learn, like, the frivolities of her society and of. Of the precariousness of the world and the danger of being a woman that she now has to take better care of herself and listen to those who have her best interests at heart. Now, like, love is beautiful, but it is not. Passion is not always romantic. It's not always beautiful to lose your head. Sometimes it's good to, like, listen to the people who care about you and listen to reason. Sometimes, if. If only because like Andre's father says, sometimes waiting a little bit can really show where everything is. If you act impulsively all the time, you will make mistakes. Pierre acted impulsively, and he's married to Helene.

[Natalie Walker]

And with Natasha and Anatole, it's like, you know, nice is different than good, hot is different than good.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah.

[Natalie Walker]

Lust is different from love. All of that. I. I do think what. What is the blessing of the. The Great Comet discourse that ultimately helped to topple the. The show.

I do think without that brouhaha, we don't get Octet. And Octet rules, because Octet also, like, has the same thing where. What I found so. What I find so moving about Octet is so much of it is about the evils of social media, of online culture.

But what keeps it from being like old man yells at Cloud, yells at Cloud is that you get. At the end of it, you get this beautiful little jewel of a moment where Kuhu Verma, in the original production, and that's who I will always think about doing it forever, has this gorgeous little song about, like, finding connection.

Feeling alone and finding connection through the Internet and sifting through all of that and I. And I. I've always been so, so grateful for octet it. And I do think that it was so.

Born out of the. The absolute chaos and harm.

Harmful sentiment being. Being.

Disseminated on. On social media in the end days of. Of Comet that you get. You get the smartest show that I've seen about the way, quote, unquote, the way we live now on the. On the Internet.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah.

[Natalie Walker]

That still manages to find that just as with Comet, that final shred of hope out of. Out of the dark cacophony and everyone yelling at each other.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah. I think that my final take on the discourse is just like it was the epitome of anger without information and with no target. And then there was the Collateral damage was a wonderful show that people really enjoyed that was so smart and so creative, that employed wonderfully gifted artists. Just closed with this. With this stink that it did nothing to deserve. But the legacy is octet. It is Dave Malloy officially being a musical theater writer that now everybody knows and is at a level now because of Comet becoming a Broadway, that him doing Black Swan is very exciting. I go see three houses in Signature because I'm like, here we go, Malloy. Malloy. It launches Tafkin, who's now become one of our prominent directors. It launches the careers of Philippa Sue, Amber Gray, who I would argue Shayna Tab. Like, I think Shayna. I think things like this is Shayna doing great comedy gets her. In connection with Philippa Sue Philip doing a great comic gets her Hamilton. Being in Hamilton makes Philip sue somebody that people are watching. So when Shayna does a concert of her stuff at Lincoln center and she is there.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes. People go, totally. Yeah, totally.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah. And these things have a cause and effect, and that's how we get sus to go as far as it does. Because it's not just that, like, Oceana would always be talented. The question is, would people pay attention? And that is how you get people to pay attention. And that. And they got. And that was the fortune of that.

[Natalie Walker]

Yes.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah. Yeah. What other legacies do we think that Grey Comet leaves us behind? Do you think musical theater has taken anything from it creatively so far?

[Natalie Walker]

Oh, I. I think.

The design elements of it, for sure. Like, I see it in Masquerade. I see it in, like, I. I think, like, there's.

I. I really. I really think that there are a lot of things that I just don't want to, like, say anything's a. A ripoff or anything, but I do think it just exploded the possibilities of what shows can sound like, of.

Giving opportunities to people that are brilliant, that might otherwise not have gotten the opportunity to show their brilliance in a commercial theater sphere. I mean, I don't think we get Hadestown even without, like, the Chavkin aspect. Like, so many elements of Hadestown, I don't think happen at all without. Without Comet, like, even if Chavkin wasn't involved, just like the sonic landscape of Hadestown, Amber Grant, like, that. Those types of voices. And I. I say those types, I'm like, there's nobody that sounds like Amber. There's nobody that sounds like Grace. There's. There's nobody that sounds like Britain. All of.

I do think that Comet, even for as much as I still bitch to this day about sort of the homage homogenized musical theater sound, especially in contemporary stuff.

I. I do think they opened a very real outdoor for other types of voices.

And.

Just. Yeah, just the possibilities just. I. I really do feel like Comet expanded people's ideas of what musical theater could be and do. And even. Even with our gripes about the things that were lost in the Broadway transfer, the fact that it went to Broadway is something. Is massive for what a sort of punk rock experience it was. The fact that it went to Broadway and was pretty successful and had like, Josh Groban, who you wouldn't, like, expect to want to do something. Like, it would have been so much safer for Josh Groban to do a revival, to do something that was like, more classical, that.

[Matt Kopeck]

And proven.

[Natalie Walker]

More legit and proven. And instead of. Instead, he comes with this. Under this, like, underground thing that came up through. Through the tents. And I. I think that's an incredible. An incredible legacy.

To leave to leave behind. And. And I am so excited to see what it could be and in different spaces and.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I would definitely would urge aspiring musical theater writers to listen to that score of just.

Challenging what you think a sound needs to be for a scene or for a character or knowing when to hold back on a song and not necessarily let it be a barn burner because, like, Sonja Alone is not a barn burner song, but it is a showstopper. Well, Natalie, I think we've come to the end of our. Of our reign. This has been so delightful. Thank you so much for doing this.

[Natalie Walker]

This has been a dream. This is perfect. This is all that I want to do is just talk about musical theater with my friend.

[Matt Kopeck]

What can you say? Have you been.

[Natalie Walker]

Come on.

The photos that you have of me alone. Like, I. We're locked in forever. Because it's scary.

[Matt Kopeck]

Because I got dirt on you.

[Natalie Walker]

Yeah, you got dirt on me from our production of Aida. Our. Our childhood production of Aida. All white Aida. Isn't that what everyone wants? Incredible.

[Matt Kopeck]

You were there. I was there too. We were in that together. We both haven't turned on each other for that.

[Natalie Walker]

We've been through the trenches. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, now, mutually assured destruction is what they call it.

[Matt Kopeck]

Exactly. We both have our cyanide pills. Once again, where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[Natalie Walker]

Yay. Okay, people can find me at nwoks on Instagram and that is the only social media place. And if you have. If you didn't listen all the way through to the first part of this for some reason, I am doing a substack for all of December. It'll be a little advent calendar of hyper fixations and recommendations that'll just be in your inbox every day in December. If you want to subscribe to that, it will be called Mental Extravagance after Joan Crawford in her book describing basically the act of having a hyper fixation as being mentally extravagant. So log on. Get that.

[Matt Kopeck]

There you go. We love it. We have a substack, guys. You can subscribe to that in the link in the podcast episode description box. We also have a Discord channel if you want to join there. If you want to, you know, chat all out of the ways that Natalie and I are wrong about Great comment. The Discord's also really good for ticket exchange. People will often want to sell their tickets on there or ask advice for their shows to see. People also exchanging media on the shows we cover on here. So if you want to watch a slime tutorial of great comment and you don't know where to look, I guarantee you somebody on the Discord has posted it. Sometimes I will comment on there in communication with you guys. I'm trying to be more on substack for communication. We're also posting articles on Substack and reviews, so just check all that out as well. I don't know what the episode after this will be. Let's hope to hear how my throat does soon enough. Pray for it. Everybody remember, five star rating or review. We love it. We love it. We love to see it. Helps with the algorithm. Natalie, what is our diva for today?

[Natalie Walker]

Our diva for today.

I would like us to go out with Audra McDonald, mistress of the Senator.

Thank you.

Thank you.

[Matt Kopeck]

That's it. It's gonna be Audrey, mistress of the senator from the. Hello again. No, no. Does she do it on her album as well as the movie?

[Natalie Walker]

Yes, she does it. She does it on her album. And that's the one that I'm. Yeah.

[Matt Kopeck]

I was about to be like, oh, Natalie really wants me to go for that soundtrack. But then I remembered, oh, no, it's on. I think it's on. Happy songs.

[Natalie Walker]

I think so.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah.

[Natalie Walker]

I think so.

[Matt Kopeck]

Yeah. Yeah. No. Or maybe it's on Way back to Paradise. One of the two.

[Natalie Walker]

No, it's way back. It's way back. That's what it is.

[Matt Kopeck]

Okay. She has the way back to paradise. Okay. That's what we're doing on. All right, everybody, thank you so much. Take it away, Audra. We will see you next week. Bye.

[Natalie Walker]

I need a change of scenery. I need a new career. I need a new adventure And I can't wait another year. I can't wait another day. But when I have you, you need to win in important races. I need to play in better places. Let me play the love of the president.