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- [00:11]
Eli Rallo
Then we stumble away through dawn's blinding sunbeams, failing, knowing right from right nor left from wrong. But as long as we can hear.
- [00:31]
Matt Koplik
Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broady Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Matt's Picks and it is covering shows that you submitted that I didn't pick out of a bowl for grab bag, but I wanted to cover anyway. I am your host Matt Kobleck, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts, and today's episode is going to be covering the Drowsy Chaperone. This episode is going to be split into two sections. First, you're going to get me covering all the historical and legacy basics of Drowzee, how it came to be, what happened when it got here, you know, what's been done with it since. The second half of the episode is a conversation with social media siren and writer Eli Rallo, which is very exciting. It's all about the intricacies and the themes of Drowsy Chaperone. How it pertains to us Many of you may know Eli from her social presences on TikTok or Instagram. You may know her debut book, I Didn't Know I Needed this and her second book, a collection of essays titled Does Anyone Else Feel this Way? Just released this week. So make sure to stick around for that convo with Elight. So this first half is, or I guess first section, I'm not entirely sure how long this is going to go, is going to pertain all towards the facts of Drowsy Chaperone, historical fun facts and whatnot. Before we get into that though, I would love to give roses to those of you who gave us some wonderful reviews on the podcast while we were on summer hiatus because you guys wrote so many amazing reviews and I want to give you your flowers. So with that in mind, let me please read you these reviews. Please play the Landing Piazza Overture, the only podcast worth listening to by Jamie Lloyd's sup5 stars as someone who has binged every episode of Broad Rate Breakdown, yes everyone, it's the only way to make it through weeks sitting at a desk. I must say that no other pod lives up to this one. Matt provides educated insights into the theater history of both the past and the present. His up to date deep dives of the current season will make you feel as if you've seen everything currently running, even if he lived several states away. I hope that is true for everybody. His analysis on shows will give you new ways to look at material you thought you knew inside and out, and the charcuterie of guests provides new perspectives from episode to episode. Now that I've run out of Broadway Breakdown episodes, I spend Friday through Wednesday to find something to enjoy in the meantime, and the truth is, there is simply nothing else like it. Thank you Matt for all you provide. To the theater community, a podcast may seem like a relatively small contribution to society, but to people like me, it gives me something to look forward to each week. And it is something I treasure. Thank you. Sub Next up 5 stars insightful, funny, Real From Blair I discovered this podcast while searching for a Tony Awards recap a few weeks ago, and now I've gone back and listened to dozens of his previous episodes and will continue to do so during the pod's summer break. I live in Texas. While I have a few friends that share my love of Broadway theater and I try to get to New York to see shows when I can, I don't get to do so every year or as often as I would like. This podcast makes me feel so much closer to a world that my daily life feels very removed from. Matt's knowledge is truly astounding, not just of names and other hard facts about productions and performers, but also of the business and development, public perceptions and cultural relevance of shows throughout theater history. I am not only going to be much better at any given Broadway category on Trivia Night, but I am also learning how to better evaluate and articulate what I do and don't like in theater. We love that. Despite having a rare exposure to and appreciation for many less mainstream shows, Matt never seems like he's trying to have a hot or contrarian take regarding popular shows, or like he has particular tastes just to be interesting or elite. I'm not trying to be interesting elite. I just I am interesting and elite. I listened to his Deep Dive episodes on some of my favorite shows, and while we don't always agree on pure matters of taste, I find his criticisms valid and helpful. I love that I just pulled the trigger on booking a trip to New York in 2026 in part because of this podcast. You that Broadway League. I'm contributing to the economy of Broadway, so I look forward to going through next season with Broadway Breakdown while even more invested. We've got two more I'm going to read those in just a second. You guys have waited long enough, so let's get into the intricacies of drowsy chaperone what is the Drowsy Chaperone, one might say. Well, according to the plot summary on Music Theater International, the licensing company that licenses Drowsy Chaperone. Drowsy Chaperone, quote, with the house lights down, a man in chair appears on stage and puts on his favorite record, the cast recording of a fictitious 1928 musical. The recording comes to life and the Drowsy Chaperone begins. As the man in chair looks on mix in. Two lovers on the eve of their wedding. A bumbling best man, a desperate theater producer, not so bright hostess, two gangsters posing as pastry chefs, a misguided Don Juan and an intoxicated chaperone. And you have the ingredients for an evening of madcap delight. That is pretty accurate. Yeah. The Jozy Chaperone basically is two plots. The first plot is an anonymous man in chair who is a major theater lover and puts on the recording of one of his favorite 1920s musicals and guides us through the show. And the show comes to life in front of us. And we learn both fun facts about the characters of the show, the writers of the show, blah, blah, blah, as well as facts of man in Cher's life. And on top of that, then we also have the plot of the musical itself, the Drowsy Chaperone, the musical within the musical. The show was written by Bob Martin. Many of us know Bob Martin now from the Prom and Elf, as well as Boop and Smash Smoosh, as we call it. Bob Martin also starred in the original Broadway production as man in Chair, as well as the national tour and West End premiere. More on that in a second. The book is by Martin and Dan McKellar. The music and the earth are by Lisa Lambert and Greg Morrison. The origins of Jarzy Chaperone are quite infamous. For those of you who don't know, Bob Martin is Canadian, as is the rest of the writing team. And Martin got his start in entertainment as a writer and as a comedian. He worked at Second City in Canada in Toronto and became the artistic director of Second City. At the beginning of the 21st century. He worked a lot in TV in Canada as Drowsy Chaperone was being developed. He would go on to create the TV series Slings and Arrows about a Shakespeare company in Canada. It's a great show. I highly recommend it. The first season in particular is amazing and Rachel McAdams is on it. The origins of Drowsy Chaperone, Bob Martin. As I said, writer, actor, Second City. In 1998, he was getting married to Janet Van De Graaff. Hmm, don't that name sound familiar? And Bob Martin, short for maybe Robert Martin, Is that a name that also sounds familiar to some of you Drowsy Chaperone fans? Well, that is because the Drowsy Chaperone actually started off as, as a gift to Bob Martin when he was getting married to Janet Vandegraaff. He was having his stag party and he made it very clear to his friends that he didn't want any strippers, he didn't want any X rated content for the entertainment at the stag party. And so Morrison, McKellar and Lambert wrote a 30 minute pastiche musical of the 1920s called the Drowsy Chaperone. Now that might seem a little out of left field, but not really. See, the four of them, Martin, McKellar, Lambert and Morrison had for years been writing pastiche musicals of the 20s, 30s and 40s. It was just sort of one of their many creative outlets. And so the Drowsy Chaperone was sort of their love letter to their friendship to this creative outlet as well as to Van de Graaff and Martin. And they even advertised the performance in the paper so people could come see their performance of the Drowsy Chaperone. And of course it had Robert Martin as the bridegroom, Janet Van de Graaff as the bride. And the whole show was filled with all of these inside jokes about Martin and Van de Graaff's lives and their, you know, experiences with their friends. It was again, it was only 30 minutes long. There was no man in chair in this version of the Drowsy Chaperone. And as far as we know, the only two songs again written by Morrison and Lambert, the only two songs in this version that made it to Broadway were the songs I Am Adolfo and An Accident Waiting to Happen. The idea for man in Chair had actually begun before 1998, before this performance of the Drowsy Chaperone, because Martin had said in an interview that Lisa Lambert, as a composer, really only could write in an old school pastiche style. She couldn't do pop or, you know, modern musical theater. And they all loved, you know, that era of musical theater, they loved writing that way, but they were not sure if modern audiences could get on board with it. And they were trying to figure out a way to bridge the divide between modern audiences who loved pop music, contemporary sounds and the musicals that they had written, as well as the, the performance style required for musicals of this era. And so they had come up with the idea of man in Chair, this, you know, Broadway fanatic with deep, deep, deep historical knowledge. Hmm, wonder what that's like to sort of give commentary on the show that they were writing. And they decided that this was a perfect opportunity for Manager, was for him to be inserted into Drowsy Chaperone. So this was 1998. And then in 1999, Summer of 99, they premiered an expanded version of the show that went from about 30 minutes to just under an hour, including man of Chair. And they went to the Toronto Fringe Festival. And the show was actually positively reviewed by Variety, which was rare. A lot of shows that Fringe in Canada don't get reviewed by Variety, but this one did. And because the review was so positive, it got picked up by commercial producer David Mirvish. Those of you from Canada know that name. I believe there's the Mirvish Theatre in Toronto as well. This version is slightly under an hour version. Got an expanded production even again, like even longer, more production value. I think it was budgeted for about a million dollars, was further developed, did very well, broke box office records in its new production. And they mounted another production in 2000 again around the same time as when Bob Martin then creates slings and arrows and gets more experience in film and TV in Canada. So is steadily building reputation for himself in Canada as a name and a creative. They bring the show to NAMT in October 2004. NAMT is the national alliance for Musical Theater. They do sort of kind of like fringe productions and readings of new musicals. A lot of wonderful shows that we love have come out of namt. I have mostly seen readings at namt. I don't know if I've actually ever seen a full blown production. Like I saw a reading of some like sort of modern day Sleeping Beauty musical. But anyway, they do a reading at NAMT in October 2004. This attracts the attention of Broadway producer Kevin McCollum and eventually Bob Wyette. They bring aboard Casey Nicholaw who is coming into Broadway that winter. So this is October of 04. Spamalot is about to open in March of 2005 on Broadway. It has just finished its out of town run in Chicago. And Casey Nicholaw is the choreographer of Spamalot. He's making his Broadway debut as director with Jazzy Chaperone. Or rather his professional debut as director is Jazzy Chaperone. But the thing about Casey Nicholaw is Spamalot, that's not openly talked about all that much, but it is very widely known is that Nickelod was kind of the secret Director of Spamalot, like Mike Nichols, was very good about sort of honing the material and working with the actors on the tone of their performances. But Nikola really kind of handled all of the major assets of that production, all of the intricacies that Nichols kind of didn't give two craps about. Nicola handled and particularly was responsible for honing Sarah Ramirez's performance as lady in the Lake. It's why Sarah really kind of calls out Nicola in their Tony speech. So Nicola comes on board as director and as choreographer, and they raise money to bring the show to the Amundsen Theater out of town in Los Angeles from November to December of 2005. Now on board is Sutton Foster as Janet Vandergraft, as well as a whole bunch of Broadway folks who have had strong careers but aren't necessarily names. People like Danny Burstein, Beth Leavel, Lenny Wolp. And then we also have Eddie Corbich. I think the other sort of like semi big name, big or big names in the show are Eddie Hibbert, who is best known at that time for Frasier, and Georgia Engel, who. Georgia Engel, I think, was best known for the Mary Tyler Moore Show. Is that correct? Yeah, that's about right. And Bob Martin comes aboard as man in chair, which sort of always Was always going to happen. There was no world in which Bob Martin wasn't going to be man in chair. Yeah, Mary Tyler Moore Show. That's. That's where George Engel is best known for. And so they bring it to the Ahmedson where it gets very positively received, and they bring it to Broadway at the Marquee Theater in April of 2006. And the critical reception on Broadway was overwhelmingly positive. The biggest caveat in the critical reception in New York was the New York Times Ben Brantley, who did not care for the show, he acknowledged that the audience cared for the show, and he also acknowledged that Sutton Foster was great in it. This is huge because up until this point, Bradley had never given Sutton Foster a good review. I say never. Like, you know, she had a million shows under her belt that he reviewed. This is not true. Like Ben Bramley famously did not care for Thoroughly Modern Millie. Many people didn't. But he also didn't care for Sutton Foster. He found her very grading. He did not care for Little Women and thus did not care for Sutton Foster in Little Women. Drowsy Chaperone was the first time he gave Bend to Sutton Foster as a Broadway performer. And from then on, his reviews of Sutton just got more and more positive. He Also didn't really care for Shrek, but he thought that Sutton was amazing in Shrek. He thought Sutton was incredible and anything goes. I don't think he reviewed Violet, but she got amazing reviews for Violet. She was one of the few people in Young Frankenstein that he gave a good review to. This was sort of the beginning of Brantley's diva worship of Sutton Foster. So that's very huge for her. But in what I will always give Brantley credit for was with this show, he was very fair in assessing all the reasons why he didn't like the show, that he thought it was smart alecky but not necessarily smart, that it might be witty, but he didn't find it particularly funny. He didn't find the show within a show very good or very memorable, which he thought was sort of to the detriment of Drowsy. More on that in a second. But the reviews overall were very strong and the community was very receptive to Drowsy Chaperone. And it went on to win the Drama desk for best Musical and was nominated for 13 Tony Awards, the most of any that season. It was up against Jersey Boys, the Color Purple and the Wedding Singer. Drowsy would go on to win the most Tonys of any new musical that season with five. They won score book, costumes, set and featured actress in a musical. They lost best Musical to Jersey Boys. Jersey Boys was just this unstoppable phenomenon that season, and Jersey Boys did not come in with a lot of fanfare. It was very popular when it was at La Jolla, but no one really thought much of it or that it was going to be much of anything because at that point all the jukebox musicals post Mamma Mia. Had totally bombed. But Jersey Boys comes out also with extremely strong reviews and a middling review from the New York Times and takes off like a rocke and becomes the big, big, big hit of the season. So by the time the Tony Awards come around in June, Jersey Boys is just kind of too big to fail. And Drowsy Chaperone, to its credit, put up a really good fight. It wasn't even the second biggest financial hit that season. The Color Purple was like the Color Purple was doing just as good at the box office, if not better than Jersey Boys. But Color Purple wasn't really well respected. The respect for Color Purple as a musical didn't come until the John Doyle Revival in 2015, 2016. So color purple was sort of the only other competing financial hit. But Drowsy Chaperone was doing very well on Its own got just as good a review as Jersey Boys and was very beloved by the community and had a lot of Broadway favorites in it. Ultimately, it did not win Best Musical, but it had a great Tony performance. They did recoup their investment of supposedly $8 million. They recouped in the week of Thanksgiving 2006, about seven months after they opened. They eventually would close after 674 performances and then tour, as I said, with Bob Martin as Man in Chair. On Broadway. There weren't many notable replacements. The big replacements were for man in Chair. First, I believe, was Bob Saget, famously of Full House. And the word on the street that Bob Saget was actually pretty good as man in Chair. He didn't bring in a lot of business, but that he was less. He was less aggro than I think people were expecting. Which is weird because Bob Sackin was never like a super bro y aggro dude. But his. His comedy was always kind of of smart alecky heterosexual, which is not a negative. It's just that man in Chair kind of has a bit of a slightly feminine, slightly queer quality to him. I believe online. He was nicknamed Manon Lazy Boy, but he again, his. His critical response was mostly positive. And then after the him was John Glover. Only other major replacements I can think of on Broadway were Janine Lamanna. Original Christian McFuzz went on to replace as Janet Van der Graaff, and then Mara Davy, who we all know from Smoosh, the TV show, and of course the Chorus Line, the revival in the documentary at the Ballet. And Joanne Worley replaced Georgia Engel as Mrs. Tottendale. Yeah, that's her name. There was a Forbidden Broadway sketch that I never got to see and there's no evidence of it, but supposedly the drowsy chaperone sketch for Forbidden Broadway involved a Bob Martin type character, you know, tied to a chair, providing constant commentary as the Beth Leavel type is trying to perform. And then because she can't take anymore, she shoots him because he keeps interrupting her. The album was nominated for the Grammy. It lost to Jersey Boys. The tour ran for about a year with Nancy Opal playing the drowsy chaperone, which is pretty fucking cool if you ask me. The Drowsy Chaperone premiered in the West End. It's not on the West End. It's in the West End at the Novello Theater. Elaine Page was the drowsy chaperone. Bob Martin once again played the man in chair. It was nominated for several Olivier Awards and received extremely positive reviews. But it only ran for two months. People could not give two shits about it, which I think is very sad. There was an Australian production where Jeffrey Rush played the man in Chair, which led to rumors of a movie version that Jeffrey Rush was trying to get off the ground where he played man in chair. This eventually went nowhere. And then apparently, rather recently, Ariana Grande was quoted in an interview when talking about Wicked for good. Or maybe it was Wicked Part 1, about how much she loved the Drowsy Chaperone and she would do a musical version of it if she could. I don't think that was meant to be anything other than just like, I love that show. If anyone ever did a movie, like, let me audition for you. I don't think she's trying to greenlight one herself. But, yeah, I don't think Drowsy Chaperone would necessarily work as a movie. It's so beholden to the love of theater. And what makes it work so well is the fact that it takes place in a theater. It's sort of like how they're trying to develop La La Land as a stage musical. And I'm like, but that movie's about movies. How do you portray a love of film in a stage show? I say this as somebody who has a play that's all about, you know, romantic comedies and stuff like that, but it's hard. It's very hard. Very few stage shows are able to present homages to other mediums. Right. It's very difficult. So it's hard for a movie to present an homage to the love of the biggest legacies. I would say that Drowsy Chaperone gives is that it is. If it furthers along the meta musical. I would argue that you're in Town, breaks the mold and creates the meta musical. Right? It's a musical where a character in the show is aware that they are in a musical and is talking about all the tropes of musical theater, which would be Officer Lockstock and then. And as well, Little Sally Very, you know, Scream of like, this is all of the things you need to have if you're going to do a musical. And here's what's going on with our musical right now. This is the Act 1 finale and blah, blah, blah. And it works very well because it adheres to the tropes while also acknowledging that they are tropes. Drowsy Chaperone doesn't quite do that. It's less meta commentary and it's more a straightforward musical with footnotes, which hasn't really been done since, but because. But this is the most in depth that commentary has been done in a musical. And so there's constant evolution from this of musicals that are aware that they are musicals. This is where we get Titanique and, you know, big A jamboree and things like that. And what it really does beyond that is it expands the careers of so many people in the company. Before Drowsy chaperone, Beth Leavel and Danny Burstein were, you know, constantly working much liked Broadway actors who were not names in themselves. But Beth Leavel winning her Tony Award and having, as we Stumble along as a major, you know, staple in her canon really, you know, propels her not to, like, necessarily Broadway stardom, but to major Broadway notoriety. She goes from this into playing Donna for a year in Mamma Mia. And she gets to have another Tony nomination for the Prom and another Tony nomination for Baby it's you. Danny Burstein goes on to have multiple Tony nominations after this. This is his first Tony nomination as well as Beth Leavel's. And it's so funny when we come back to this because we view Danny Burstein now as, you know, one of our great musical theater actors. Like, he's a very good singer, but what he really is is he's an actor. And Drowsy is what really kind of begins that. And he's so comical in this. He's basically a clown, and an amazing clown like his. If you want to watch him on YouTube doing drowsy, it's like, it's so specific and so outlandish and so correct. And I highly recommend anybody who's, you know, looking to have a career as a musical theater clown. Look at this. But he goes from this into South Pacific and Golden Boy and Cabaret and Gypsy. And so we think of Danny Firsteon as, you know, this really heartbreaking, beautiful actor. And he is. But it's so funny to me that it starts with this. I would also say that this was the show that really cemented Sutton as a Broadway leading lady, because Thoroughly Modern Millie, you know, she becomes a Star Is Born and Little Women wasn't really a follow up. That paid off. She was above the title. She was the, you know, really sole focus of that show. But that show didn't run for very long and it wasn't well received and she got a Tony nomination for it. But everyone kind of viewed it as like, okay, yeah, let's move along from that one. Drowsy, interestingly enough, though, it is an ensemble piece, and that was a major reason why she took because she didn't want to have another show to carry. She wanted to be part of an ensemble. Janet is perhaps the most role of anyone in the Drowsy chaperone after man in Chair. It's why she was nominated for leading actress in a musical. And it kind of solidified that Millie wasn't just a flash in the pan, that she really was here to stay. And I mean, I guess it's ironic that it was in the same theater in the same era of musical, you know, 1920s flappery musical where she's belting and tap dancing a storm. But so it wasn't necessarily like she was breaking out of her comfort zone. But it. This was really the follow up that cemented Sutton as like, no, no, this is one of our leading ladies, get in or get out. Which I guess is why Ben Brantley was so up on her and his review. He was like, okay, I guess I'm in now. It also launched Bob Martin as a Broadway librettist pretty soon after Drowsy. He follows us up with co writing the book for Elf and the Prom. He also writes Minsky's, which has Beth Leavel in that and tries out at the Ahmanson. And I believe Casey Nicholaw directed that as well. That eventually closes out of Town at the Ahmanson. He writes the books for the Sting and Halftime. He's now, I believe, co writing the book with Rick Ellis for the Princess Bride. He wrote the book for Millions, which tried out in Atlanta. We of course, have Boop and Smoosh. This really launches Casey Nicholaw as a director. He follows this up with To Be or Not to Be, a stage adaptation of the movie starring Carol Lombard. And it doesn't do well. It's at Manhattan Theater Club starring Jan Maxwell. It doesn't go anywhere, but it kind of. This is sort of the beginning of Casey Nicholaw's ascendance and dominance as a director. There hasn't been a revival of Drowsy Chaperone yet on Broadway. I would argue not enough time has passed. And also because the show is done everywhere, all over the country. If you go on MTI's website and look for upcoming productions, you will see dozens and dozens and dozens of productions coming up over the next year, including a one night only concert that'll be happening in November at Carnegie Hall. Produced by Breaking the Binary Theatre. It's starring Alex Newell, Peppermint Laverne Cox, Betty Hughes. I can't say that there are any songs from Drowsy Chaperone. That have broken through the mold of, you know, becoming breakout hits karaoke wise or piano bars. The biggest one is probably as we stumble Along. It's which, like, the joke is that that song is a barn burner whether it's necessary or not. Because the role that Beth Leavel is playing, the actress playing the drowsy chaperone, I think it's like Beatrice Stockwell is her name, was a major Broadway star who demanded showstoppers in all of her shows, and this was her contractual showstopper. And so by default, it ends up stopping the show in Drowsy Chaperone and, you know, can be sung out of context. Man in Chair is an interesting creation because he is somebody who's very knowledgeable and very passionate about theater. His tastes are sometimes questionable, and he falls victim, as we all do, to the trap of nostalgia and finding comfort and safety in nostalgia. Because, as we learned throughout the show, man in Chair's life has kind of gone to. We learned that he once was married, and this is 2006, before gay marriage was legal in anywhere in the United States. And so when he says married, that immediately implies he was married to a woman. So he looks out, he goes, oh, you're all surprised I was married. Because he wears, you know, these bulky cardigans, and his wrists have absolutely no structure to them. They are limp as the day is long. And Bob Martin himself is a straight man, but he's very good at having those affectations that we associate with homosexuality. And we learn in little pieces what led to the breakup and dissolvement of his marriage and sort of how alone he is. And so all he has is the comfort of these musicals and this one musical in particular that he loves. And we eventually come to learn that this is a musical that his mother had introduced him to. And it both makes a defense for musical theater as well as a question of how much we should define ourselves by our love for it. Now, how much of that I want to look inwards on myself, I couldn't tell you because I do love musicals. I love theater in general. I think it's one of the most amazing art forms. It's one of the longest lasting art forms outside of maybe like painting and sculpture, one of the longest lasting art forms in the world. And it's one of the few things musical theater that America has contributed to the world in terms of culture. And it's really hard to do. And when it's done well, it pays off in spades. And it's not that I am interested in nothing else. I have a lot of other interests and it's not that I define myself by my love for it. It's just the thing that I know the most about and it's the thing that makes the most sense to me in so much of the world. But I don't hide behind it. I don't think so anyway. And I think that's something we all should take accountability for when we talk about Drowsy and as we get into the next section with Eli, of the fun, harmless sugariness of the musical within the musical, as well as the sad reality that wraps itself around it with man in Chair and his life and his story and his realities. And that's something that I think Ben Brantley couldn't figure out when he first saw the show, is that the show within the show is a loving pastiche send up of dumb musicals in the 1920s. Musicals that make no sense, musicals that have phenomenally catchy songs, half of which have nothing to do with the plot, you know, story developments that are just absolutely ridiculous, but are mostly just there to entertain. And because half the time the creative team and the actors were high on cocaine anyway. And so there's a lot of intelligence behind that silliness. And by having the footnotes of man in Chair, it, as the writers wanted it bridges the gap between modern day cynicism and old school, you know, optimism and care freeness, as well as having a meteor, sadder message underneath of who we are today, why we're here in this moment today, and why we find comfort in the things that we do. Because the entertainments that we find comfort in haven't changed, especially something like Drowsy Chaperone, which this is a recording of a musical, of the whole show. It's preserved in amber. And as the world changes, the show stays the same. What changes is how we view it based on modern sensibilities. And we. A lot of that is fair. There's the whole point of Adolfo is that he is a racist stereotype. And there is humor in that by laughing at how objectionable it is and how simple minded people were in the past, while also acknowledging that the actor playing the role is very funny. This goes even further with the message from an angel, which we talk about, I'm pretty sure in Part two. And that is ultimately the legacy that I feel like Drowsy Chaperone carries, that not everyone thinks about until they see the show. It's not just the silliness of the show within the show, but the larger message of the framing device surrounding it. And it's a legacy that we can't really crystallize yet. That's where we're going to leave that with Drowsy. Before we get into our conversation with Ms. Eli Rallo, I want to do our last two reviews, so please cue the Light of the Piazza Overture. Five stars, please, sir. I want some more. The I Was There episode was fascinating and fun. Brava. More, please. We will be doing More I Was There eventually. That is referencing the pilot that we dropped over the summer with amazing music director and arranger David Loud, Also a wonderful teacher. We will be doing more of those eventually. It's just to sketch scheduling things, so just hold tight. They'll be coming. Final one. Could it be any better? Five stars. Matt and his friends do an incredible job of being funny and informative. I recently founded the show and have developed a in parentheses healthy addiction to it. I came across a breakdown on Dolly Parton's Christmas on the Square, which hysterical on its own, but even better because a family member played one of the characters he calls out around the time mark 26:30. Okay, I have to figure out who that person. Thank you, Matt, for doing the show and sharing it with the world. It's the best. You're very welcome. And with that in mind, let's take a quick break and then we will get to Ms. Eli Relo and our conversation on Drowsy Chaperone. So let's take that break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean?
- [33:09]
Eli Rallo
You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow caller. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar.
- [33:18]
Matt Koplik
You're the nimble tread of the feet afraid to stand. Eli Rallo, welcome to Broadway Breakdown.
- [33:26]
Eli Rallo
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.
- [33:28]
Matt Koplik
We're so excited to have you. So let's just dive right in, shall we, on the Drowsy Chaperone. Eli, how did this show enter your chat? How did it come into your life?
- [33:38]
Eli Rallo
Oh, my gosh. There was like, a high school. Well, I went to a pretty good high school for theater. Like, it was public high school in New Jersey, but I think being in the tri state area growing up so close to New York, it just, like, breeds a lot of good theater talent. Like, the community theaters are pretty high level, and of course, there's paper mill and you have great access to the city. So you see, like, places like Algonquin and like Axelrod that are like, in the Jersey Shore. Like, those are, like, pretty high level. Like, we have get a lot of really good talent. And so the high schools were also like pretty strong even when they were public high schools and not like specific for performing arts. And there was a high school that did a production of the Drowsy Chaperone and they had like a couple just like really standout kids in high school. And I remember, like, everyone would talk about these kids, like, oh, they're so talented, they're so good. Like this kid from this school. It's like classic drama club chatter. And I think it was probably my sophomore or junior year of high school that they did the Drowsy Chaperone, which by the way, I think is a really good show for high schools because it just is like small and manageable, but also fun and exciting. And so we went and saw it and that was probably like how it entered my life life when I was like 15 years old.
- [34:54]
Matt Koplik
And is it just sort of stayed with you since then?
- [34:57]
Eli Rallo
Yeah, I wouldn't say it's like a top, top choice of mine, like one of my all time favorites, but I do think like the story of it and you mentioned that you're doing a whole episode on the story of it is so interesting that it kind of like spawned from these friends sort of like messing around. And then they were like, oh, we actually have something here. I feel like that is so the core of theater. When you like actually think about what theater is, a lot of times it's just like friends goofing off until an idea becomes like a really big good idea. I think of all the big shows, like, it all started with a conversation of someone being like, what if we did this on stage? Or like, what if we adapted this? Or like Lin Manuel reading the Hamilton book by Ron Chernow while he was on vacation and being like, this should be a musical. I just like those types of stories. So there's something about the conception of it that kind of just brings me joy. And I think the framing of it by having like man of chair, a narrator, is a super lucrative way to tell a story. So I've always really liked it.
- [35:54]
Matt Koplik
Yeah. As someone who is basically created a whole Persona and business out of being a man in chair, I have always kind of had ties to him as a nerdy teen who loved the history of theater and all like the backstage anecdotes and all the fun facts. Like I'm. I was. Yeah, I am somebody who when they discovered IMDb in middle school was like, oh my God, a haven for nerds like me. Like nothing but fun facts.
- [36:17]
Eli Rallo
Yes. No. And I think also, like, there's so many good, like, canon tracks in that show. The Drowsy Chaperone is, like, probably, like, the most iconic princess track of all time to me, where, like, she kind of, like, shows up, and it's, like, so amazing, and it's like Beth Leavel and you're like, oh, my God, like, what even is this? And then, of course, we have, like. Like, Sutton thought, like, it was just so good. And I think also, like, when you look at a lot of the musicals that came out, like, post 9 11, it's to me, which I'm pretty sure this one did. It's.
- [36:48]
Matt Koplik
Yeah, I did.
- [36:49]
Eli Rallo
Always so telling of, like, you know, people were really afraid to go to New York, and people felt really out of control of, like, their own government and their own ability to, like, vote on whether or not we enter or exit certain engagements or things. And people felt. Felt kind of a certain way about New York City. And a lot of the theater that you see come out of that time is, like, really silly and, like, really dumb, but also not dumb at all. And I feel like the Drowsy Chaperone is a perfect example of, like, such an entertaining, like, true Broadway musical and so silly and so stupid, but, like, the point of it is, like, you know, as we stumble along through life, like, we're gonna encounter all these characters and people, and art is so healing. I don't know. It's kind of the perfect example of that time canonized in New York to me as well.
- [37:36]
Matt Koplik
Yeah, absolutely. I think what's interesting about the show, and I was rereading Ben Brantley's review for it in the Times, and Brantly was an interesting man, but he talked about. Which was ultimately a mixed review for the show, and I disagreed with it, but he talked about with man in Chair and having the 20s musical within the show, Drowsy Chaperone, as an overall piece trying to, like, have its cake. And what he's. His quote was have its cake and diet, too. Which is basically to say we're having this frivolous 1920s musical that's silly and dumb, while also kind of analyzing it from a modern perspective and getting away with a lot of the tropes of it. Because the thing about Drowsy Chaperone is because the show takes place in the 20s, there's a lot of stuff in it that. That wouldn't age well intentionally. So. Like, it's. It's written from modern. From modern writers. And one of the things they. They acknowledge Both with Drowsy Chaperone and the three minutes of Message from a Nightingale that we get is these things that audiences and the world at large were so okay and happy with, that we, over the years have recognized, like, not okay and. Regarding race and gender. Yeah. Things with, like, race and gender. Yeah. And I feel like, as somebody who does love a lot of Golden Age musicals and recognizes the ones that haven't aged well or the ones that have aged well but need translators, if that makes sense. Like, there are some shows where a bad director will ruin it, and, like, you need a good cast and good director, and some shows where it's like, oh, it doesn't matter who you have. This show is a product of its time, and we just can't make it work today. But man in Chair is trying to sort of be a translator for this show while at the same time sort of in real time recognizing that there are things about the Drowsy Chaperone that he can't really explain to modern audiences. He's like, you kind of just have to accept it, you know?
- [39:28]
Eli Rallo
Yeah. I also think that, like, there's something to be said about the way that, like, I think so many theater kids have, like, a time in their life where, like, maybe they were lonely or, like, isolated for some reason, and, like, you find community through theater. And he obviously cares about this show so much, and, like, it's clear that, like, his loneliness is sort of remedied by it, but also grappling with, like, even as you get older, like, learning things and being like, oh, damn, that's not really what I thought it was. And, like, it's like a heartbreak, but also, like, an isolation, but also a beautiful thing. So. Yeah.
- [40:06]
Matt Koplik
Yeah. No, I mean, I think that's. That's ultimately what love is. Love is not necessarily. It's not allowing or. It's not necessarily accepting or agreeing with the faults of a thing or a person, but you have. But you do kind of have to accept it. It's part of what makes it it or makes a person a person. You know, when we talk about relationships with people and, you know, musicals, despite how hard I try, they're not people. They can't actually be my boyfriend. But I tried very hard. It can't happen. They don't love me back. But. But. But, you know, with a. When we talk about relationships and. And compromise and bending, part of that comes from recognizing that the person we're with is not perfect. And they have flaws and they have faults, as do we. And the question is what is something that we accept? What is something that we have to work on? And with man in Chair, and it's. And I want to. I want to get sort of to the root of man in Chair in a bit because he's his own special character with his own backstory and things we start to sort of learn about him as the evening goes on. But he is a pure lover of musicals, but really of a specific kind, which is shows like Drowsy Chaperone of a Yesteryear that, like, don't necessarily have a message, are more about escapism. And as the world continues to move forward, and shows like Jawsy Chaperone kind of get left in the past, he defends them more fervently, almost kind of like to make a case for himself, who also is this person who's being sort of left behind by the world and. Cause you have moments where he's defending the show. Moments like as We Stumble along, which he's like, this is a rousing anthem that makes no sense plot wise. Or he's like, adolfo is a racist trope, but you kind of let it go. Or the famous spit take scene where he's like, I gotta fast forward through this. And then he has moments where he gets angry about the show. The Love is Lovely. In the end, he's like, I hate that song. That song is crap and it's a lie. And when it all ends, when the show's over, his ultimate plea is. He does have an emotional tie to it. The record was a favorite of his mother's. She introduced him to it. It's a tie to his childhood of a simpler time before he had to go out into the world and meet people and marry and divorce people and deal with bills and rent and all that. But then also because of that, the show just gives him a high that he always has to then defend the flaws of it to other people. And it's just. Sorry, I feel like I'm saying word salad, but do you get. Is the heart of what I'm saying make sense?
- [42:52]
Eli Rallo
Totally. Totally. And that's why the framing of the show within a show is so genius. Because if he wasn't there to be, like, giving his little stipulations, we would have our own stipulations. And perhaps some audience members wouldn't even notice certain, like, things that, to your point, really haven't aged well. And others would be, like, deeply uncomfortable by them. For him to be explicitly, like, pausing it and calling things out and then giving his own opinion, our Opinion is shaped by his opinion. And. And I think that's really. I think that's a really special part of it where it's like, you're sitting there and you get engrossed in this ridiculous story, but then someone pauses it and is like, hey, no. Or like, hey, this isn't the case. You know what I mean? Or like, hey, this is my favorite part. And it's like, oh, wait, we're also here.
- [43:43]
Matt Koplik
Yeah, it gives context for everything we're watching. Because I think when people I. So I did a whole series before this one that was called Problematic with a question mark, covering shows of the. That have had some sort of backlash and being like, okay, is this a show that actually is quote unquote problematic, or is this a show that maybe has been misunderstood? And most of them are shows that are misunderstood because the hot take is a lot of people who work in the theater are not trying to be racist or sexist. They're. They are writing within the time they're in. And then we grow out of those mind frames later on and we look back and we go, oh, that's who we used to be. Here's where we are now. And like. Like, look how far we've come. But so with drowsy Chaperone, there's conversation sometimes from people like, ooh, why is that line in there? And like, oh, that. That's like uncomfortable. I'm like, people forget that this show was actually written between, like 1998 and 2007 and is not actually a 1920s musical. So the writers put those lines in there for the purpose of they are meant to be uncomfortable of, like these little bumps in a show that's. That we're being told by our narrator is a wonderful escapist time. And then every 10 minutes or so, there's a moment where we go, oh, that's a racist line. When Robert talks about why he's singing Hot Feats, I'm not gonna fully quote it, but he's like, it's an old song that taught me. And you're like, oh, why is that in there? And the point is that over time, it's revealing all of these cracks within this older musical that does mean to just be a good time. But over the course of our progression, we look back on who we were in the 1920s, and it wasn't a perfect era. Like the man in chair wishes it was, because there are all these other things about the show that's revealing its to us. And he acknowledges it at the end. And says, but I still love it. And I think that that is a beautiful sentiment rather than go, no, you're wrong. That's okay. Because of this, he gives context. He gives historical context and gives fun facts about the actors and the writers and all that. And at the end, he admits, like, yeah, there's. There are parts of it that are not as good as, you know, musical theater would come with integration of song and scene with a spit take scene. And there are racist moments in sexist moments. But, like, I don't know, I love it. And theater kids like us go, yeah, manager. I absolutely get that.
- [45:57]
Eli Rallo
Yeah. 100. I think it. My favorite musical is My Fair Lady. And a lot of people are always like, oh, my gosh. Like, you're such. You're so outspoken and, like, you're so feminist and, like, how could My Fair lady be your favorite musical? And I'm like, I get so mystified by the fact that, like, they didn't think when they were writing it that they were being, like, super sexist. They were writing for the time period in which they lived, like, where all of those things were conventional. And I think when you put it on stage today, like, if you have the right director and the right mindset, you can, like, shift that tone from, like, oh, Eliza Doolittle is this, like, manipulated, Manipulated, sort of like, down on her luck. Like, icky girl that doesn't deserve love because she's not polished and she needs a man to, like, like, teach her etiquette, to, like, her having her own sense of agency and sort of, like, completely turning the whole thing on its head. The production that they did at Lincoln center In, I think, 2018 was. There was this, like, beautiful moment where she, like, they pulled back the whole stage and she was on stage all alone on that giant stage. There's just so many moments that I was like, yeah, like, they're doing this right? This is correct. It's my favorite show. And I think that. That people are always like, how could that be your favorite show? And I'm like, it wasn't. Like, they sat down in 2025 and said, let's write a sexist musical. They wrote a musical that was true to the time, and that was a sexist time. And for me, I don't think, like, I think we need to have more of a nuanced critical eye when we think about these things and not just, oh, like, toss it to the side. And that's why I think, like, casting is so important. And that's why, like, to bring it back to Hamilton. Things like Hamilton were so revolutionary because it's. It was a really massive moment of, like, let's be intentional about diverse casting to tell a story in a specific manner that wouldn't typically be told this way on a main stage. I just feel like that's why the casting conversation is so important as well, if that makes sense.
- [48:03]
Matt Koplik
No, absolutely. I think also when we talk about intention and something like a My Fair lady, which I think is a beautiful musical based off of a very beautiful play, like, the musical is from the 50s. I think the play is from the 30s. And so, like. Yeah, so these are things to think about of. As you said, you have to think about the time, you have to think about the intention. And there's a nuance and there's a tension to that. Story of Eliza is a feminist character, just point blank, because, as you said, she does have agency. The story only is incited by the fact that she makes a choice for herself to go to Henry Higgins with the little money she has to get a better life. The tension then comes from the fact that he's an absolute dick.
- [48:44]
Eli Rallo
The word.
- [48:45]
Matt Koplik
And she has to take the good from him to help her get better and leave the parts that could traumatize her aside. And that is sort of the whole point of that journey. And what that revival did as we go into casting was I saw all three Elizas in that production. For various reasons, I won't go into my own personal journey with that production, but I did see it four times. Not because I was obsessed with it, but because of things. But I did like it. I liked it a lot. But I saw Lauren Ambrose, I saw Laura Benanti, I saw Kirsten Anderson. And each actress, wonderful as they were, had a different facet of Eliza. Like, as the highlight. Lauren's was the struggle to achieve. Laura's was the combative dynamic with Henry Higgins, and Kirsten's was the confusion of figuring out what it was that she wanted. So, like with Lauren Ambrose, it was, I don't like my situation and I'm going to get myself out of it. And it's a constant struggle, but I will get there. Kirsten's was, I don't know what I want. I just know it's not this and I'll figure it out in the end. And Laura was like, I know what I want and I'll get what I want. And unfortunately, I'm dealing with a man child, to quote Sabrina Carpenter. And I need to. You know, I need to.
- [49:56]
Eli Rallo
Hers was my favorite Laura's Yeah.
- [49:59]
Matt Koplik
Well, Laura's a very strong woman who. I love her so dearly. That woman can't play a victim on stage because she's just such an empress on stage. Like, she comes on, and I'm like, there's no one who could ever challenge you. You're 10,000ft tall.
- [50:11]
Eli Rallo
Yeah. No, she's amazing. I love her take on it. And I saw a prediction of it. Like, I originally fell in love with it through a tour when I was, like, 15, and then I saw a production of it at the Bay Street Theater in Sag harbor, which I'm sure you're familiar with. It was a. Michael Arden directed My Fair lady in the summer of 2016, I think. And it was literally my favorite, like, thing I'd ever seen. And the whole thing was set in, like, a medical laboratory, so the ensemble was in, like, lab coats. And she was meant to be, like, a specimen that everybody was, like, poking at and prodding at. And then at the end, they removed the entire set. So, like, when he entered his house, there was nothing there. And I just remember sitting there and being, like, 18 years old and being like. Like, I love a choice. Like, I. I love a choice. Like, it. It wasn't even that it was the best thing I'd ever seen or that it was so, like, some specific type of thing that, like, was so prominent to me. But it was more so just watching people, like, take something that, like, I had always liked and just make a choice around it, and I absolutely. Oh, okay. Like, there's that. And I feel like with all old musicals, when you bring them back, it. It's like the Gypsy revival. You have to. To breathe new life into them. Like, it's. The word is revive. It's not like, repeat. It's not recycle. I think sometimes people get so frustrated when a show is revived, and it's not revived in the way that they, like, perceive it. And it's like, that is not the point, though. If we want to bring back these, like, old golden age shows from the 50s, the 60s, even before, we're gonna need to revive them with what we know today.
- [52:01]
Matt Koplik
Yeah. No, I agree. I think the best Revi. The best revivals have the mentality of making a show that opened in 1945 feel as electric today as it did then. And there are various ways to do that. I love that whole idea with the Lab, with My Fair lady, especially, because that's, like. Another thing about the show is Henry Higgins treats Eliza like an object, not a person. And that is sort of the whole point of their final confrontation is her being like, dude, I am a person. And the reason why I don't like you and I like everyone else around you is because they all treated me like people and you never did. And it's a very beautiful scene, this is to say, with something like Drowsy Chaperone, where that's a musical that is full of archetypes and not actual people, but. But you can find meaning from anything. The. There's that great moment towards the end of the show. It's right before the I do. I do in the sky. And. And. Cause the whole idea of this is. Man in Charge is playing for us a record of the show. That's the whole show, dialogue included. And he said, there's a moment where Janet Van de Graaff, Sutton Foster, goes to Beth Leavel and she's like, I need advice. Give me advice that's pertinent to this moment right now. Please don't sing another rousing anthem. And the drowsy Chaperone says something, but someone drops a cane on the first word. So you don't know what the word is. It's either live while you can, love while you can, or leave while you can, but you just hear while you can. And the man in a chair goes on and on about both, about either live or leave. And it becomes. It devolves into this, not breakdown, but I guess, tangent. We love tangents on this podcast. This tangent about the benefits of living or leaving. And it goes into his own personal life with his marriage, this woman who. He said, you know, I most likely was a very close friend. And he said, I love you. Is this new frame. Is it a question? But she hears it as a fact, and before you know it, she's in front of you in the $3,000 dress. And all of your friends are family there, and her nephew made the chuppah. And you. And you think, live. I have to live. I have to live. He's like. And then eventually it all becomes couples counseling and a divorce, and you get an email once a year on your birthday. And he's looking for life's answers from a musical, which this is ultimately what this podcast is. We dissect these shows, musicals in play, and view it as these mirrors to our own lives in our society and the world at large in history, and try to find answers from any of it. And they ultimately don't provide answers, but they can provide context clues. And the man in chair is so. His life is so in A state that he keeps listening to this one line over and over again from a musical that is ridiculous just to get any sense of closure. And he ultimately doesn't get it. He just finds comfort in the show, and that's sort of the best he can do. And I wonder why. People like myself, people like man in Chair, people like us, or our friends and our other theater nerd friends, we just sort of hyper fixate on things that impact us so much that ultimately it's just a piece of art. Or quote, unquote, just a piece of art, but isn't necessarily a political statement. It's just a story that. That hits us in a specific kind of way, you know, which I'm sure you. You deal with all the time with. With your writing and how people respond to your. Your writing as well.
- [55:27]
Eli Rallo
Absolutely. I think for me it's like. And I know not everyone feels this way because like, if, as it were, like, you know, the Tonys are the least watched of the award shows, like, not everyone feels this way. But when I think about musical theater, to me it's like the amalgamation of like, all other mediums in one place. And I think the live aspect of it also really adds to like, the emotion of the thing. There's this, like, study that my boss told me, my boss at the Muni, because I worked at the Muni when I was in college, he was saying that the thing that's so special about the Muni is that, like, there's this scientific study that if you sit in an audience with a group of people for like, like a fixed amount of time, like, people's heart rates start to sync up and you can actually, like, look, look into it. And I just think that that's something so unique to like, live theater. Like, there is like a connection, a bond. But also, you know, a lot of people love film and like, there are such starkly specific acting moments on stage that I feel like hearken to the reasons why people love film and like, like the storytelling of television or limited series and the arcs of a novel. But then, like, there's music and I just think there's so many elements of it. But the live aspect is what really stands out to me as the reason I feel like I get so fixated on it. Like, the idea of audience where it's like, when you go to a musical, like, you're with that audience for this one, like, production of the show that's going to be inherently different than any other production of the show because it's lot. It's gonna bring your face. Like, where do we get that anymore? Of course, it's like opera ballet, but I think they fall under the same umbrella of, like, live theater, live performance art. It's such, like, a specific and special thing, I think, especially, like, in a post Covid environment. Yeah.
- [57:21]
Matt Koplik
No, live. Live performance in general is special, even when it is a Broadway show or an opera ballet, where, technically speaking, they'll do it again the next day. But there's always something different. Even if everything goes exactly according to plan on stage, the audience is different. Everyone in that audience has had a different day than they had the day before. And that just changes the energy, it changes the reception. Moments that get a huge laugh on Tuesday will be met with silence on Wednesday, because everyone in the audience had a very specific day that day. And it's so fascinating to see how when everyone actually is locked into the show and not on their phone or not talking or eating, they're actually paying attention to what's in front of them. There is this wonderful communal feeling of getting joy or shock or sadness from whatever you're experiencing together. And, I mean, that is something that I remember when I saw Drowsy Chaperone, because I did see this production on Broadway twice. And the first time I saw it, I knew nothing about it other than they had just come from LA and it was done very well, and I knew Sutton was in it, and I was a high school theater nerd, and Sutton Foster was very much our girl. So. And this was like she was the queen, and this was like a return to form. We went, oh, she's tap dancing and belting in another 20s musical. Sign me up. In the same. Yeah, same. Same theater as Millie, nonetheless. And so the whole thing just sort of felt like Norma Desmond. She's come home at last. So the thing about musical theater that I think ties to opera more than anything else, and this is both live as well as movies. Musicals are an inherently earnest genre of writing and performance. I talked about this in my review of Heather's, which is a movie I love and a musical I've come to acknowledge, if not necessarily love, but I've.
- [59:10]
Eli Rallo
Come to tolerate it.
- [59:11]
Matt Koplik
Yeah. And I think for a lot of us, it's people who have known the movie first and then see the musical. The thing about the musical that they can't ever truly click into is that the movie is so cynical. And because musicals are a lot more earnest, just even the most cynical musical has that earnest nature to it. The musical version of Heathers can't fully get to the same level of cynicism as the movie, they still have to have that heart to it because ultimately you're singing. It's an expression of an emotion so large you can't speak anymore. And it has to be honest. It's really hard to lie in a song. A character can lie to themselves, but they can't lie to an audience. And I think something like Jozzy Chaperone is able to get away with the dumb earnestness of a 1920s musical where everyone's heart is on their sleeve. No one is. No one has depth. In Drowsy Chaperone, the biggest heartfelt song is the Bride's Lament, which is ultimately focused on the metaphor of a monkey on a pedestal. And that I think audiences today are able to swallow because of someone like man in Chair. Whereas other musicals of that era, or the 30s or 40s or a movie musical like, let's say, you know, let's say La La Land or Moulin Rouge, a lot of people have issues with them quality or whatever aside, just because they are so earnest, they are so open about the feelings and that. We are in an age where people are so icked out by that. We're in an age of sarcasm and condescension and. And antagonism and like. Like the. The number one critical analysis videos on YouTube are always the like, actually, this thing you think is good is bad, and here's why.
- [60:55]
Eli Rallo
So annoying. And theater people are the worst with that. Like, especially if you say you don't like something. Like, I don't like Heather's, but I like the production of it that's off Broadway right now. I think it's really great. And the performances are fabulous. And I've said that, so I won't caveat myself to death.
- [61:11]
Matt Koplik
But agree, agree.
- [61:14]
Eli Rallo
If you say that you don't like something and I don't like it for the same reason that you don't like it like it. The movie does dark humor, but perfectly. It's perfect. And it's so of the time. That movie could not be recreated today. I don't think it could ever be recreated in, like, a post Columbine, like 1,000%.
- [61:30]
Matt Koplik
Yeah.
- [61:31]
Eli Rallo
Needs work. And the musical doesn't work because of that. And it also doesn't work because, like, half the stuff they're doing isn't that funny. And then they, like, start singing a song. That's great. The songs are actually really good. But you're like, what the heck? And then my other thing is that I don't think that they. I feel like in my brain, this is what they did. They were like, we're writing the musical Heathers, and they spent a year writing Act One, and then they spent a week writing Act Two. Two different shows. What the heck? The end of act one, you're like, oh, my God. Like, the. The. The lights go out and you're like, whoa. Like, the tension is there. Beginning of Act 2. Tension. Who? We didn't have any tension. Like, what are you talking about? Anyways, I feel like every time you say something like that, that on the Internet, you get so much, like, actually this, and, like, everyone just wants to actually to death, and it starts to dilute. Number one, being able to enjoy things. Number two, being able to critically analyze things in, like, a astute or just, like, normal way. And number three, just makes it unfun. Like, I feel like when. I'm sure you understand this because you have a podcast that, like, literally breaks down Broadway musicals, but it. It. It becomes less fun to analyze, like, the hell out of something when other people are just gonna, like, dogpile onto you because you don't agree or something of that nature.
- [62:51]
Matt Koplik
Oh, absolutely. It is. So I am. One thing I will pride myself on is I am very good at saying, I like this show. I don't think it's very good, but I like it. Or I don't like this show, but I recognize that it's well made. And that is something that. That confuses people to no end because so many people's brains go, I liked it. Therefore, it good. And I'm like, you can have a fun old time at Pretty Woman, the Musical, but the moment you come at me with, like, it's why it's good, I'm going to shut you down. Which actually goes back into something like Jozzy Chaperone, where the man in chair, by the end of the show, realizes maybe in real time, that it is not a very good musical. The drowsy chaperone. That doesn't mean he's not allowed to lie. Love it.
- [63:36]
Eli Rallo
100, 100. And I think that's something that people don't. Don't want to understand because they want their likes to be, like, objectively good things. And it's like, yeah, my likes sometimes are not objectively good. Like, when I'm watching, like, the dumbest TV show ever created, I can like it. And that doesn't mean it's like an award it needs to win an Emmy. And it's the same conceit of the man in Chair being like, yeah, this musical is actually bad, but I love it.
- [64:06]
Matt Koplik
It.
- [64:06]
Eli Rallo
That's like a fine thing, but people always need to take it a step further than that to where it becomes like, this thing is great. I love this thing, therefore it is great. Or I hate this thing, therefore it is bad. I had a similar situation with maybe happy ending, where, like, I enjoyed maybe happy ending, but my life wasn't changed. I didn't feel the need to go back again. I really respected the representation on stage. I thought the story was sweet and the performances were unbelievable. But I said that people would have thought that I was saying it was objectively bad. I got attacked. And here's the thing. Like, I thought it deserved to win that Tony. I just didn't really like it that much. And that's okay. Like, I'm always so honest that I don't really like new musicals. I don't like musicals that use a lot of tech. It's just not for me. I'm an old classic musical type of girl. Like, anything pre 2000 is gonna work for me. And anything post 2000, I'm gonna need to like. Like, it needs to be special for it to hit. Like, it needs to be drowsy chaperone for it to hit for me. I'm not the kind of girl that post 2000 musicals are not always going to do it for me. Like, I'm coming at them with more of a critical eye, and people do not like that. People do not like that. Liking the drowsy chaperone is huge because I don't really like that many musicals that have been, like, created post 2000. And the ones I like, I love, I would say.
- [65:24]
Matt Koplik
Yeah, well, I think that's that. I mean, that's any musical theater fan, right? When you like a show, it's because it gets to a certain part of you that you can't get rid of. And there's so many musicals in the 21st century that I do not like. And I don't think that it's a hateful thing to say that this. There are so many shows. Writing is hard. Writing a musical is hard, and it's not going to hit for everybody. The ones I can't abide, by, Eli, are the ones that are trying to please everybody, that are trying to be. I call them the hanging their kitty posters of musicals where it's like the songs could be plucked in into any show. They could be about anything. The lyrics are generic. The book is so. Book is horrible. Music is nondescript, and they all rely on making their leading ladies belts their face off. And I'm like, your music isn't good. We're just impressed by the agility of the singer. And, and, and the listeners of this podcast know all the shows. I mean, when I say that I've, I've. They've been my punching bags for years now. We don't have to get into it right now. We're talking about something we do like, uh, and I actually do appreciate that with Drowsy Chaperone, they don't. They could make Sutton sing a lot higher than she does. And she's. Everything she sits in is in a nice, comfortable. Like, I think her big money note is a C, which is like the heart of a belter's range. But it's. I think the reason why you and I are sort of going down this road about the theater fandom and theater discourse is because ultimately, that is what this show we're talking about is. It is. It's the ultimate theater discourse show, the ultimate theater fan show. More so than, say, like a Urinetown, which is a musical comedy that is deconstructing all the tropes of musical comedy as it's playing out, the musical comedy. Whereas Jozzy Chaperone is just a plain old musical comedy that has, like, footnotes going on from an outside perspective. Because we have the man in chair's monologue in the right, where he says, I hate theater. And he goes on about modern theater. In a lot of ways, he's saying all the things you dislike about 21st century musicals. It's one of, like, I think one of the ultimate burns in a musical for a show again, for a show that is ultimately quite positive, is him saying no. Back in the day, audiences used to sit in the dark and they think to themselves, you know, what if George and I regirch from Got for me tonight? Or can Cole Porter pull it off again? Can you imagine? Nowadays, it's, please, Elton John, must we continue this charade? And I think it is. It's just like such a burn that ultimately we all are okay with because, like, you can't. You can't deny that Elton John, sometimes he's given us this bit of a charade, but there's that. And then his whole tearing apart love is always lovely in the end. And as you were saying, people get defensive the things they love, because if you come for the thing they love, subconsciously are thinking, you're coming for me. You're coming for my intelligence and my perspective. And I don't want to fight. I want to have a conversation. I feel like the best I've had my mind changed on shows before. Not positive and negative. I think I had an episode once where I had a guest who convinced me in real time that the show I didn't like was actually good. And I went, oh, this is. This is an exciting journey.
- [68:36]
Eli Rallo
Yeah. You're like, this is me realizing things. Yeah. I think. Think it can be so sticky because people do care so much. Like, same with man in Chair. Like, I wonder if we had. If he was a real person and we had him talking about it, like, he would probably be very protective, even though we're pointing out times that he was rather critical of the thing. He was probably super, super protective. Would be super, super protective of it if he was in the room with us. And I get that. I just think is interesting how little variety we allow one another to have in terms of, like, int. Interests with musical theater. And I think, like, as musical theater. As musicals have gotten worse. Like, I think they've gotten worse. I'm just gonna say it. The last few seasons, I'm like, what's happening? Like, genuinely, what is happening? I feel like it. It's more. It's. It's work. Like, the discourse is somehow worse when the shows aren't as strong. Because when a show is, like, sort of strong or just, like, strong in general, it's kind of like, like the diamond in the rough. I just think, like, we kind of derailed a bit after Covid, and, like, I think we're coming back on. But also then, like, when I think about this season and, like, all the things that, like, immediately closed after the Tonys and all the, like, just been rocky and unfun. Sort of Unfun.
- [69:52]
Matt Koplik
Yeah. I don't want to get into it too much, because I'll have an episode a little bit more about this later this season. But I. I have plenty of friends who write, who produce, who direct, many of them on Broadway, and all very smart, very talented, passionate people. But the thing that no one on Broadway will say out loud in a public discourse, and we're kind of saying right now is, like, a lot of the work lately has not been great and that people are very aware of it, and we want to be supportive of new work and of people making choices. But a lot of the shows, it's not that people are doing a bad job. It's that a lot of these musicals came to Broadway not quite ready. They came because that's when the money came. That's when the theater was available and they went for it rather than going, we actually need another year to. To work on this.
- [70:36]
Eli Rallo
And yeah, think about Hadestown. Like, it took them a decade, and it shows. Like, you see that show and you're like, this took a decade. And it's so, like, it. You feel the care in every word. Like, it's so done, it's so polished. Like, when you see a show that's, like, actively so finished, like, you guys actively did this, like, you did a million rounds of edits, you thought through each piece of this. Like, it'll stay there forever when you do that. So a lot of it to me is like, why are we rushing to get these shows up when a lot of them, like, two, three more years, more workshops, like, they'll stay on for a really. They'll have longevity here.
- [71:19]
Matt Koplik
Yeah. And I think. I think the ultimate proof in the pudding is. And I. I honestly have felt this way even pre Covid, although I think it's worse now. But I would say probably for the last eight years, there will be a musical or two every season that has a fan base that's very, you know, passionate, whatever they make it, their personality. The moment that show closes and something else comes, that preview show is forgotten, and the new show takes its place, which to me proves the point of the show actually isn't very good, because if it was, it would stay with you a lot longer than it currently is staying with you. The shows that I call my favorites have always been my favorites, remain my favorites, even as I make room for new ones. You know, I'm making space in my heart for new shows that I love, but it doesn't take away from how much I love Fun Home, how much I love Carousel, how much I love, you know, A Chorus Line and Dreamgirls and things like that. And not everything has to be a My Fair lady or a Gypsy or, you know, not everything has to have, like, a statement about the world. Some things can genuinely be just meant to be a fun time, but you want to do the work that even if it's just trying to be a fun time, it can still stay with you. You know, something like an O, Mary, which has, you know, really broken through into the Zeitgeist. And I would actually argue post Covid, while the musicals have been struggling to.
- [72:36]
Eli Rallo
The plays.
- [72:37]
Matt Koplik
The plays. The plays have been coming through, like, for the last three seasons now. It's been.
- [72:41]
Eli Rallo
The musicals are struggling for sure. In comparison.
- [72:44]
Matt Koplik
Yes. No. 1,000%. And I think that because musicals are so expensive because it's high risk, high reward financially, and whatever people want to go for that brass ring of making it be, like, the thing everyone wants to be, a Hamilton or a Rent or a Chorus Line that, like, gets the praise, gets the money, and becomes this seismic event. And those were shows that weren't trying to become these mega musicals. They were. They came from someone like a Lynn, who had an interest in the story of Alexander Hamilton, of Michael Bennett, going, I think dancers have a story to tell. And then. Then spending a good amount of time making it the absolute tightest drum it could be.
- [73:24]
Eli Rallo
And a lot of times the shows that all these shows that want to become the next and the next the next, they're all trying to do it by following form. But the thing that was so interesting about A Chorus Line about Jesus Christ Superstar. Let's throw that one in there, about Rent, about Hamilton, is that they broke form, they changed something. They did something different and new. If you're gonna copy exactly whatever went on with Hamilton, you're not gonna make another Hamilton. Like, half of it was the novelty of the thing, and the other half was that it's brilliant. If all of those examples that we just gave A Chorus Line Rent, I think Jesus Christ Superstar deserves a spot. Hamilton are half. Half because they're doing something completely different that's interesting or controversial or mind bending or form breaking, and then half because they're brilliant and a lot of these shows are bad and just copying. And so it's like, okay, so you, like, why aren't we thinking about the fact that, like, these all clearly were a one plus one equals two thing of, like, we're gonna do something new and controversial and different, and we're gonna be brilliant. And now you're thinking that you could do nothing new, copy everything, and it's bad. And you think it's gonna be like, to use your words, a seismic event. Like, you're not thinking, yeah, well, I think so.
- [74:51]
Matt Koplik
Tying Hamilton and Drowsy together. Lynn is interested by the story of Alexander Hamilton and thinks, how does. How do I get an audience to latch onto this in the way that I am? And then goes into the tone of the show and the tone of the score and the idea of the casting, like, and. Which is all stuff that piles on Drowzee Chaper from this musical that's written at a stag party for Bob Martin, book writer Bob Martin. And they like the show and. And they wanted to bring a 1920s musical to modern audiences. And they go, how do we get A modern audience to sign up on a 20s musical. They're. Today, we look at them as, as shallow and dumb and problematic. And that's where they came up with the idea of man and chair. So that way an audience could glom onto what they loved. So it's the idea. And I think it's Sondheim who said, like, the, the, the format is dictated by the content. You think of the story you want to tell, what interests you about it. And then how do I get an audience on board with me? And that's when you start to think about all these other things. Not, as you were saying, like copying a copy of a copy. It's. You don't look at. Well, it worked for this so well. Let's do it out this way as well. It's. What story do I think is so exciting on stage? And how do I get. Same thing with revival. The best revivals are when a team and a cast go, this show is secretly really fantastic and, and not as dusty as people remember. How do we get 1500 people a night to see what we see? The worst revivals I've ever seen, Eli, are the ones where they're like this warhorse. Well, let's just get through it and, like, apologize for it. And you just sit there and you're like, why does everyone hate being here right now? You know?
- [76:31]
Eli Rallo
Yeah, like, why, why are we even doing this? Yeah, like, what's even the purpose? I, I, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And I think that I think a lot about, like, could they revive this? And I feel like it would be, like, kind of tough because I think that there would be controversy about, like, a lot of people would miss the part of it that's like, what we talked about before. Like, this is a commentary on this thing. It's not like trying to uphold this thing. And I think that it's. It would be a similar problem as Book of Mormon where, like, I understand that this play is about us as a white person watching Book of Mormon. Like, I'm sitting there and I acknowledge that it is a satire and a commentary on white people savior complex. When white people go on these, like, missionary trips to go post pictures with people in Africa thinking they did something when you didn't do shit. Like, I get that. But all of the wealthy white people sitting around me who can afford tickets to this theater do not get that. And they are laughing at racist jokes. It's uncomfortable because. And that's why I don't really like Book of Mormon, because I'M like, people are not getting this. And it's like, when people don't get it and when it's a miss, it's a bad miss because it perpetuates bad stereotypes. That's my concern about them ever reviving the show, is that, like, not to be like, audiences are stupid, but the people that can, like, unfortunately afford seats in theaters are not thinking critically about these things. And they would laugh at the racism and they would not understand or they would not want to buy into the fact that the whole thing is a commentary on how problematic those stereotypes are. That's my problem with Book of Mormon. And I think the same thing would happen if we revived Drowsy Chaperone, where it's like, people are not thinking in this way and they don't want to confront these uncomfortable things. A lot of people think that going to the theater is meant to be purely entertaining and luxurious and bougie in a way. And they're not wanting to go there to, like, confront something hard. And they think that, like a show, like, I don't know, like Slave Play, for example, it was pretty clear that you were going in there to confront something and to be uncomfortable and for big statements to be made. Parade, I feel the same way about, but like, when someone is buying a ticket to Drowsy Chaperone, I feel like they don't think that's what they're going there to do. And so I think it could be a problem if it was revived in the same way that whenever I've been in the audience at Book of Mormon, I'm like, oh, these people aren't thinking about this like I am.
- [79:01]
Matt Koplik
Yeah, it's hard to make something and then release it out into the world. Not just because, oh, what if people like it? What if they don't like it? There is so much bad faith criticism. There are so many people, as you're saying, like, who will just not get the point of it. You, you could write something with a very intentional point of view and somebody else does not get it. And that is, is okay in the sense that it's not on you to educate them and have their brain work that way. But God forbid, this is somebody with a 2 million viewer platform who then goes on and says they're spiel and you go, oh, God, now 2 million people are not going to understand what this is because this idiot went off and, and, and could not comprehend what the point of this was. And I, I know you don't want to say that audiences are stupid now. I do think they are. I really do. And I think. Think they are in all of the sense, because there is the audience, the. The wealthy audience who just wants to go for either entertainment and comfort or to just say they saw the expensive, difficult thing to see. They either want to see a Moulin Rouge and they want to see the set, or they want to go see Denzel Washington in Othello. Just because they want to say, I got to see Denzel Washington in Othello. They don't want to confront all the points that that play is making. Then you have people who go see something, and they need to be told in very plain terms what the message is, what the point of view is, what it is. You're saying there's no room for nuance. And that's really tricky because I do think I hear what you mean about Book of Mormon. You know, Trey Parker and Matt Stone have always kind of looked at humanity and gone. We're kind of ridiculous, and everything about us is ridiculous. And let's sort of of put that to the extreme and show everybody. But then as the world gets just more and more ridiculous, it's like, well, how this stops being satire and it just becomes a documentary, and that becomes uncomfortable. And. Yeah, and with Drowsy Chaperone, it doesn't want to offend. It wants to poke fun at nostalgia and show the cracks in the foundation of nostalgia. Because a lot of issues that come that had just always have come about society. And it gets worse every, you know, 20 years, but it's always been there. If you look through history, nostalgia is the root of all mistakes. People wanting to go back to a time where they thought it was better. And it wasn't so much that it was better. It was just that you survived it. And you look back and go, well, if I survived that, and I don't know if I'm gonna survive now, I wanna go back to that time where I felt safe and Drowsy Chaperone, where Man in chair goes, the 1920s was great. You know, audiences were sophisticated and life was a party and. And, you know, writers were better then. And then you're watching the Drowsy Chaperone going, I mean, there's good stuff here, but, like, come on, that. Like, that's racist. That's problematic. That's stupid. And the man in Chair is able to recognize that while still accepting the flaws and saying, I still love it, as you're saying, I don't know how many modern audiences will be able to do the same.
- [82:05]
Eli Rallo
Yeah, yeah. I just think it would create a controversy that. I know. I'm thinking about it, and I just think. Think, yeah, I just think it would create a controversy that, like, the world isn't really ready for, like, right now. I just don't think we should do it. Like, I just think it's gonna be a problem. And honestly, like, if they put it back on Broadway, the discourse, it'll kill me.
- [82:32]
Matt Koplik
Well, they're about to. They are about to do a one night only concert at Carnegie Hall.
- [82:37]
Eli Rallo
I think that's fine. Fine. That's great.
- [82:39]
Matt Koplik
So, yeah. But I'll be. I'll be interested to see how many people in that audience who've never seen it before are like, huh, that Message from a Nightingale, Maybe we should cut her. I'm like, no, the point is that it's offensive and. And. And that it should never get done ever again. Like, they're. They're. If Drowsy Chaperone is a show that is lost to time because of the creeks in it, Message from a Nightingale is a show that time is eagerly trying to sweep under the rug. Not because it's creaky, but because it's. It's racist. Like, objectively.
- [83:06]
Eli Rallo
Yeah.
- [83:08]
Matt Koplik
Yeah. Eli, thank you so much for coming. We're wrapping up on time for you, so I want to make sure that we get everything in that we want. Anything else on Drowsy Chaperone you would like to say before you depart from us?
- [83:19]
Eli Rallo
I think it's a great show. I think everyone should listen to the original Broadway cast recording, and I'm looking forward to your episode describing it because I love the story of, like, we're at a bachelor party, let's put on a musical for our friends, and then the. Like, this is really good. That, to me, is the essence of theater. That's why I like theater. That's like, what theater is to me. Just like people in a room being like, should we make a story about this? Should we make a. Should we make a show? I feel like everything started out like that for some degree, but when it's so black and white and crystal clear that it started like that, there's something special about that to me. So I think everyone should explore.
- [83:55]
Matt Koplik
I think they should as well. Two things before you go first, think about this as you talk about the next thing. But we do close out every episode with audio from a Broadway diva. So I want you to think about what Broadway diva you would like to close out your episode. I'll put her audio in post. Second question. You have A book coming out called Does Anyone Else Feel this Way? And I would like for you to give a little elevator pitch to our listeners before you depart, please.
- [84:18]
Eli Rallo
Absolutely. So my book, Does Anyone Else Feel this Way? Is coming out on October 14th. You can pre order it now anywhere that you get your books, but shop local if you can. It is 12 essays exploring like the humor, heartbreak, chaos, craziness of your twenties through my lens and my words. I do talk a little bit about musical theater, but mostly about Internet culture and social media and perception from other people and friendship and relationship and most importantly your relationship to yourself. And I'm super excited about it. So that comes out October 14th and I would love to close out my episode with Bernadette Peters.
- [84:52]
Matt Koplik
Fantastic.
- [84:54]
Eli Rallo
I have taste.
- [84:55]
Matt Koplik
Do you have you have taste? Do you have a specific clip in mind or do you trust? Trust me.
- [84:58]
Eli Rallo
I trust you. Surprise me.
- [85:00]
Matt Koplik
Okay. I will surprise you. And I'm okay. And I'll do pre 21st century because that's the kind of girly you are. Guys. Oh Eli, where can people find you if you want them to find you?
- [85:11]
Eli Rallo
Oh, of course you can find me at Eli Rallo. Eli R A L L O on Tick Tock. Same thing on Instagram, but with a period between first and last name. And you can pre order my book anywhere you order books, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. But like I said, please shop local. You can call your local bookstore, ask them to order it for you if they don't already have it on their site.
- [85:28]
Matt Koplik
Phenomenal. Guys. You can follow me on Instagram only for the moment. I think there will be other social media platforms later, but Instagram, Matt Koplik, usual spelling if you like the podcast, nice. Five star rating or review helps us with the algorithm. You can join the Discord Channel. We have well over 300 members on that Discord channel. Talking every day about Broadway news, talking about the podcast, sharing information media from the shows that we've been covering. There's a book club on the Discord channel so I'm sure the book club will be cover realized book at some point when this episode comes out. We also have a substack which will have video content from these episodes as well as special articles, interviews that I'll be writing that will not be available anywhere else. So please join the substack as well. And yes, this will be coming out before so I already will have announced it by this point, but we've got a live musical episode coming at Green Room 42. November 14th. Broadway Breakdown, a cabaret. Now it's going to be a shrink wrap 75 minute cabaret at Greenroom 42. Please come and see that link for tickets will be in the description box for this episode. It will be fantastic, I promise you. But yeah, take it away, Bernie. Bye bye.
- [86:33]
Eli Rallo
Hold your tongue and hold your snickers for the new enchantress of the flickers. Who's that plain little Nelly? The kid from the deli so rattle me be it.