Deep Dive: THE GOAT, OR WHO IS SYLVIA? w/ Robert W. Schneider

Summary

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Broadway Breakdown: Deep Dive – THE GOAT, OR WHO IS SYLVIA?

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Robert W. Schneider
Date: December 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Broadway Breakdown, host Matt Koplik is joined by author and theatre podcaster Rob W. Schneider for a candid and hilarious exploration of Edward Albee’s provocative play, The Goat, or Who is Sylvia? The two friends dive deep into the play’s origins, its initial Broadway run, critical reactions, Albee’s thematic intentions, and the lasting impact (and discomfort) of the work. As always, their discussion is unsparingly honest, full of industry anecdotes, theater trivia, and plenty of foul-mouthed humor.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Edward Albee’s Comeback and The Making of The Goat

• Albee’s Revival: After a long period of perceived irrelevance, Albee found renewed acclaim with Three Tall Women (early 1990s), followed by The Go, which premiered on Broadway in 2002.
  • “This was sort of like the last big hurrah for him in terms of original work.” (Matt, 03:02)
• The Play’s Genesis: Written in 2000, premiered at the John Golden Theatre with Mercedes Ruehl and Bill Pullman headlining – no out-of-town tryouts.
• Broadway Context: Opened in a notably stacked season, competing with plays like Top Dog/Underdog, Metamorphoses, and Fortune’s Fool, and musicals like Urinetown and Thoroughly Modern Millie.
  • “I felt at the time that everyone thought that it was sort of like a three way race between the Goat, Top Dog/Underdog, and Metamorphoses.” (Matt, 18:46)

2. The Scandal and Substance of The Goat

• Logline: Architect Martin, on his 50th birthday, reveals to his wife and his gay son that he is in love with a goat named Sylvia, leading to family catastrophe.
  • AI Summary: “The Go to Who Is Sylvia follows the life of successful architect Martin, who… confesses… he is deeply in love with a goat named Sylvia.” (Matt, 07:00)
• Critical and Public Reaction:
  • The play’s subject matter sparked controversy: “It was so scandalous. And the fact that people were going, well, it’s a play about a guy who has sex with a goat, but it’s one of the most beautiful plays I’ve ever seen.” (Rob, 15:29)
  • Attendance was affected: There was buzz, but “it was hard to enlist people to come because they were like, this feels like it’s something for shock value.” (Rob, 15:29)
• Critical Divide:
  • Ben Brantley (NYT) was notably underwhelmed, criticizing “too much repetition of message hammering speeches… it lacks the courage of its darkest convictions.” (Matt quoting Brantley, 18:54)
  • Others, like Charles Isherwood (Variety), were more positive.

3. Dissecting Albee’s Tragic Structure & Performances

• Greek Tragedy Roots: The play explicitly references Greek tragedy (“notes toward a definition of tragedy”), following the genre’s structure — culminating in an animal sacrifice.
  • “Tragedy is called ‘goat song’ in Greek.” (Matt, 45:05)
• Staging and Actors:
  • Mercedes Ruehl’s performance as Stevie stunned Rob: “You could watch her quiver… how is she doing this eight times a week?… Like watching somebody, for the first time, realize that their life had fallen apart.” (Rob, 28:52)
  • Bill Pullman’s turn as Martin initially frustrated Matt but ultimately impressed him: “He’s perfectly inhabiting a character I actually have issues with.” (Matt, 24:28)
  • The supporting role of Ross was critiqued for being a vehicle for exposition and, at least in the original, an overtly smarmy presence.

4. Taboo, Societal Norms, and the Play’s Central Debates

• Taboos Explored: The play puts bestiality, incest, and sexuality at center stage, raising questions about social boundaries and the limits of acceptance.
  • “Where is the line drawn between kink and perversion… between what we should accept and where we descend into collapse?” (Matt, 32:47)
  • Martin’s plea: “Shouldn’t people do what makes them happy?” is interrogated fervently.
• Sex and Identity:
  • The tension between emotional connection and societal norm surfaces repeatedly. Albee questions whether love or sexual fulfillment justifies transgressive acts.
  • The play’s handling of Billy’s sexuality, and his relationship with his father, leads to one of its most disturbing moments: Billy kissing Martin sexually (see [64:01]).

5. Memorable Moments & Quotes

Notable Quotes:

• “A man fucks a goat and his wife’s not happy.” (Rob, 08:04)
• “Shut your tragic mouth.” (Matt, 72:59)
• “No, it’s too serious for that.” (Stevie, as quoted by Matt, 72:54)
• “They’re not accepting it. They are tolerating it.” (Matt, on Martin and Stevie’s approach to Billy’s sexuality, 37:12)
• “In order to make the play more interesting, you cannot play Martin like he’s having a nervous collapse. He has to seem like a cogent human being.” (Matt, 58:50)
• “Who does society have the right to tell you who you can and cannot love?” (Rob, 54:01)

Memorable Segments:

• Rob's Emotional Encounter:
  • "[The Goat] was the only play before and after where I actually—the show ended, and I had to, like, sit in the audience and not leave... just trying to process what I had seen." (Rob, 10:28)
• Play’s Climactic Scene:
  • The vivid description of Mercedes Ruehl’s breakdown and the bloody return with the dead goat (79:24) is lauded as a shattering moment for both the audience and cast.
• Classroom Debate:
  • Rob recounts teaching the play, with students forced to "defend" or "prosecute" the actions of Stevie and Martin, sparking passionate debate over societal limits of love and decency (93:11).

6. Critical Reflections on the Script

• Dialogue Debates:
  • Matt wishes certain speeches were trimmed for conciseness: “There are moments when I feel that the point has been made and then [Albee] hammers it… two more times.” (Matt, 74:08)
  • Rob defends the tangents and “absurd conversations in the middle of a conflict” as part of the play’s human authenticity (75:04).
• On Staging and Regional Prospects:
  • The play is rarely revived, due to its subject matter; even now, “what regional theater wants to pick this?” (Rob, 100:41)
  • A high-profile revival (rumored with Sarah Paulson and Pedro Pascal) could renew interest and accessibility.

7. Speculative Casting and Legacy

• Dream Casting: Sarah Paulson & Pedro Pascal (rumored); also ideas for Nathan Lane & Laurie Metcalf, Denzel Washington & Viola Davis, Jamie Lee Curtis as Stevie.
• The Goat as a modern needle-in-a-haystack work that, while deeply disturbing, offers an unmatched theatrical jolt and exploration of human nature’s edges.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Albee’s Comeback / Play’s Reception: 03:02 – 04:57
• Critical Opinions & Ben Brantley Review: 18:54 – 20:40
• Scandal and Broadway Context: 15:24 – 17:50
• Plot Discussion & AI Summary: 07:00 – 09:30
• Rob’s First Encounter with the Play: 09:45 – 10:52
• Stevie’s Emotional Arc: 28:52 – 30:11
• Discussion of Societal Taboos: 32:40, 33:26, 34:31
• Greek Tragedy Structure: 45:05 – 46:43
• Billy’s Pivotal Kiss (Incest Theme): 64:01 – 65:25
• Script & Dialogue Criticism: 72:54 – 74:55
• Classroom Debate Anecdotes: 93:11 – 94:28
• Rob on Teaching the Play: 53:21 – 54:01
• Speculative Casting & Revival: 87:19 – 103:03

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Notable Quotes With Timestamps

• “This was sort of like the last big hurrah for him in terms of original work.”
  — Matt, [03:02]
• “A man fucks a goat and his wife’s not happy.”
  — Rob, [08:04]
• “It was so scandalous… it’s a play about a guy who has sex with a goat, but it’s one of the most beautiful plays I’ve ever seen.”
  — Rob, [15:29]
• "There was a lot of buzz... but it was hard to enlist people to come because they were like, this feels like it’s something for shock value."
  — Rob, [15:29]
• "Shut your tragic mouth."
  — Quoted by Matt, [72:59]
• “You’re the top... you’re the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire.”
  — Matt, [62:08]
• “Who does society have the right to tell you who you can and cannot love?”
  — Rob, [54:01]
• “In order to make the play more interesting, you cannot play Martin like he’s having a nervous collapse. He has to seem like a cogent human being.”
  — Matt, [58:50]

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Flow & Style

The conversation is irreverent, barbed, and deeply informed by both hosts’ experience and perspective as theater insiders. The episode weaves between passionate analysis of Albee’s dramaturgy, showbiz name drops, and dark humor, combining sharp insights with laugh-out-loud asides (“A man fucks a goat and his wife’s not happy”), and closes with their signature warmth in friendship.

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• The Goat, or Who is Sylvia? remains a milestone in American drama, not only for its transgressive content but for provoking hard questions about the boundaries of empathy, love, and societal order.
• Its legacy is complicated by its subject matter, making it both a challenge to revive and a rewarding endeavor for those who see or teach it.
• The podcast episode stands as both a celebration and critique, championing the play’s emotional power while candidly noting its dramaturgical excesses.
• Hopes are high for an upcoming revival to renew attention to Albee's late-period masterpiece.

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If you haven’t seen or read The Goat, or Who is Sylvia?, this episode offers both the context and the controversy, with enough laughs to soften the blow of its darkest revelations.

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Closing Broadway Diva:
Stoker Channing (requested by Rob, [111:31])

Transcript

[Rob W. Schneider]

Who is Sylvia? What is she.

[Matt Koplik]

That all us wings come at her? Hello all you theater lovers, both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Matt's Picks and it is covering shows that you submitted. And I didn't pick out of a bowl, but I wanted to cover anyway. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is a longtime friend of the pod. You know him from his own podcast, Broadway Bound. Behind the Curtain, his work with J2 Spotlight. He' recently a best selling author with queer musicals. But you really, really know him best for being on this podcast because everything else he's done, you've just tolerated. So please welcome back Rob W. Schneider.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, Matt, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Thanks for the setup and everything. And Matt, I have a special guest with me because I might be referring to him every once in a while. You said this is on video, right? So I'm gonna, I'm gonna pivot this, this is my buddy. This is Jonathan David Steffens. Jonathan is a marvelous actor. He's a non equity wonderful actor and he's represented by which agency he's currently unrepresented, folks. So this is the best time imaginable. Now we're gonna be talking about a play from the early aughts. Jonathan, what year were you born? Okay, so he was a wee 7 or 8 year old when the goat came out. So I'll be doing a lot of mansplaining to Jonathan as he works on alphabetizing my Playbill collection.

[Matt Koplik]

The entire introduction. He did it for Jonathan, Rob. So anyone who's ever listened to behind the Curtain knows the lineup of guests that Rob has had. And you know how they say when you start dating someone, you start to look and, and act like that person? It seems that Rob has started to act like his old guests because the way he introduced Jonathan was, I'm not gonna say it was Leroy Hume's coded, but it wasn't. Not that this is Jonathan.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Now, I knew a Jonathan once. He and I choreographed a production of Barnum together at the Darien Dinner Theater in Connecticut. And not many people came. If I remember correctly, Barnum was played by television actor Dick Van Patten. And he used to drink, you know, but they don't like to talk about that. And I used to tell him at the bar, eight is enough, which is Ironic, because I was also his sitcom. What was your original question? Ah, yes. Sprite, dear. I'd like a Sprite.

[Matt Koplik]

We are talking about a play. What play are we talking about?

[Rob W. Schneider]

We are talking about Edward Albee's the Goat, semicolon. Or who is Sylvia the Goat?

[Matt Koplik]

Or comma, who is Sylvia? And then in parentheses, notes toward a definition of tragedy.

[Rob W. Schneider]

That's great, isn't it? What a title.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, he. He's really smart, that man. He wants you to know this was.

[Rob W. Schneider]

A big play for him. Do you remember? Because he had had, like, a. Like, a couple of decades where, like, nothing was happening for him.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I wanted to bring that up. So first, before we all. That. Yeah, this was sort. This was sort of like the last big hurrah for him in terms of original work. I feel like maybe someone can correct me on that. But he. He had a big comeback in the. That started with three tall women in the early 90s. And then I feel like there was nothing for the rest of the 90s. And then he had to play about the baby. And then this.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah, it was. No, it was. It was Three Tall Women, which was new. And then he had a Delicate Balance revival. But that was a revival, and that was pretty monumental. And you play about the. Yeah, I'm trying. You know, you're absolutely right. Yeah, this was the big one. This was the big one.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it was. And I think that will lean into the critical reception that this play got, which was. It wasn't mixed. It was either, like, people loved it or they were severely underwhelmed by it. And I think part of that is because from Three Tall Women up until this, which was. It was the better part of a decade, this timeline. Three Tall Women comes out after, you know, him being considered irrelevant for the. For, you know, 15 years, and three tall woman comes out blows everyone away. He wins his third Pulitzer at this point for that. Then the Delicate Balance revival happens with Elaine Stritch, and that is super huge. And then Play about the Baby was off Broadway, but, like, Three Tall Women was off Broadway, but was a huge hit. Marion Seldies. And then this was like, oh, he's back. It's his next, like, original play, and it's coming straight to Broadway, and Mercedes rules in it. This is gonna. This is just gonna rock our world. And the reception was not unanimous.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, I loved it. Well, a lot of people ended the podcast.

[Matt Koplik]

We'll talk about it.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Thanks. Have a great night.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. No, there's a reason why you're the guest for this episode for many reasons. First of all, I do think that you and I should do an Alby play together. I don't care which one. I don't care if we're right for any of the roles. We just have to do it.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Who would pay to see that? Jonathan. Would you pay to see that? Okay, Jonathan is gonna invest in this production. This is great. Why don't we do. Why don't we do maybe, like, who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? But we can do it as, like, different impressions. Don't you do a good. Who do you do an impression of?

[Matt Koplik]

I do a decent Carol Channing. I do Jimmy Stewart, but I have to start as Don Knotts.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Okay, so what if it's Don Knotts as George, and then I'll be old Lucy as Martha, and then we'll get real actors for Nick and Honey.

[Matt Koplik]

Or. I mean, why don't we just fully do the whole thing? I'll do a Don Knotts as Honey and then a Jimmy Stewart as George.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, yeah. Okay. That's pretty smart. Okay, great. I love it. Let's go for it.

[Matt Koplik]

I love to dance. I dance like the wind.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Sandy Dennis in that movie. An ellipsis she's never missed. That is incredible. Every freaking word has a stutter and umph and an, uh, on it. What? A star won the Oscar.

[Matt Koplik]

She won the Oscar. Rightfully so, in my humble opinion. She's so good in it.

[Rob W. Schneider]

She's so. She's so talented. Actually, had they made a movie of the goat, she probably could have been in that and would have knocked it out.

[Matt Koplik]

She would have made a great Sylvia.

[Rob W. Schneider]

She would not. The goat. She's not the goat. God damn it. No. No.

[Matt Koplik]

Can we curse on this casting, you know, towards type here?

[Rob W. Schneider]

It's Sandy Dennis. They should have. Should have been Sandy Dennis and George Seagal. They should have done a. Or Siegel, however you say his name. They should have done a reunion. Get the time machine, damn it.

[Matt Koplik]

That would have been. You know, the original title for the goat or who is Sylvia? Was originally called Audra McDonald or who is Sylvia?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Because Audra McDonald's the goat, the greatest of all time. So can we cut that in post, please?

[Matt Koplik]

Nothing's getting cut, baby. I'm sorry.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Real time. Real time reactions.

[Matt Koplik]

So for the uncultured fox here, let me give you guys the AI plot summary for the goat or who is.

[Rob W. Schneider]

That AI plot summary. Can't you summarize it yourself?

[Matt Koplik]

No, I'm. This is a new thing we've been doing, is that we've been what we've been doing is we've been going to websites, we've been going to, like MTI for certain shows that are licensed by mti, and we've been going to, like, the Dramatist League or whatever, but, like, the Go to Her who Is Sylvia does not have an official summary. Even I don't think on the Edward Albee Society website. It's just, like, articles, but. So I was looking for just, like, a concise paragraph, and AI is the only one that gave it to me. So sometimes it's good for something. Yeah, you can't say that it's replacing the job here if no one wrote one to begin with. So the plot summary, according to AI is the go to who Is Sylvia follows the life of successful architect Martin, who, on his 50th birthday, confesses to his best friend that he is deeply in love with a goat named Sylvia. This secret is soon revealed to his wife, Stevie, and their gay son Billy, leading to the cat catastrophic collapse of their family. And then, here comes a spoiler alert, everybody, as Stevie murders the goat and brings its carcass to Martin in a shocking act of revenge.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I love this play.

[Matt Koplik]

That's pretty accurate. That's kind of all that happens in the show. Yeah.

[Rob W. Schneider]

A man fucks a goat and his wife's not happy.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, no one's happy. There's not a single person in the show.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Originally the original idea of Death of a Salesman, but that goat got cut out of town. Not a lot of people know that goat went into understudy Blanche and Streetcar.

[Matt Koplik]

Never went on.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Tessa, Tandy, go ahead.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, it's dependent on the kindness of strangers.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Right. Goats.

[Matt Koplik]

GOATS BLEAT. Is that the thing?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Is that their sound effects, they do bleed. Wait, is this. Let me ask you a question. This thing that we're doing right now, do you put the audio somewhere? Like, is it or is or is it always just video and audio?

[Matt Koplik]

The audio. So we are recording on Riverside, which is a program that a lot of podcasts use. Rob, I don't know about you.

[Rob W. Schneider]

And we get two Dixie cups in a string and hope to God it works.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, people who listen to Broadway Bound can tell.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Honey, I don't know what I do with the cup. So you want a sample?

[Matt Koplik]

You asked a question. I'm finishing it for you. That's, say, Riverside records the whole thing. And you can export the video and audio together, or the audio. Audio alone, whatever you want. So the audio is available at all the places where people would listen to podcasts, but if you want to watch the video. It is available on YouTube.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Okay. Because I've been talking over you a lot, so I feel really bad about that.

[Matt Koplik]

You haven't been talking over me that much.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Are you sure?

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, not as much as you usually do. I feel like you're on good behavior today.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Okay. Just raise your hand when you're done talking, and I'll. I'll wake up.

[Matt Koplik]

The limit does not exist, so you just gotta get in there.

[Rob W. Schneider]

You asked me a question.

[Matt Koplik]

I didn't ask you a single question. I was gonna ask you one right now.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I'll go back to that question.

[Matt Koplik]

This question, Rob, is how did the goat come into your life? How did it enter your chat?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, my God. Actually, it's kind of a special memory. My family took a trip to New York City, and my parents were very kind, and they said, we'll be here for, I think, seven days. You should be at the theater every night. And let's just walk into a random theater. Let's get you a ticket for something. And where was this show playing? At the Golden.

[Matt Koplik]

No rolls in. In 2002.

[Rob W. Schneider]

And we walked by and went in, bought a ticket. I had no idea what it was. I bought a ticket for the next matinee. And my life was absolutely changed because prior to that, I thought about leaving theater.

[Matt Koplik]

Really? Why were you thinking about leaving?

[Rob W. Schneider]

I was like, there's no, like, living in this. There's no, you know, there's no stable career in this. There's. I didn't really feel that inspired. And then I saw. And I think this is the only play before and after where I actually. The show ended, and I had to, like, sit in the audience and not leave, if that makes sense. Like, I was still sitting there just trying to process what I had seen. Have you ever had an experience like that?

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Besides Daddy Issues.

[Matt Koplik]

Once more for the people in the back, Rob.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Daddy Issues is a play that starred Academy Award winner Matthew Koplik. Say the line. Say the line about the cat.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, God, I can't.

[Rob W. Schneider]

It's.

[Matt Koplik]

Here, puss, puss. That's a good kitty. Something like that, yeah.

[Rob W. Schneider]

So just for, you know. In Daddy Issues, Matt played an actor and he had a commercial copy, and he was going in for a cat commercial, and the line over and over again that they gave him in the commercial copy was, what is it? You're a good kitty. Meow, meow.

[Matt Koplik]

No, it was, here, pussy, puss, puss. Mm, that's a good kitty. Wow. I did just remember it. Some things just live in.

[Rob W. Schneider]

You Forever. And he said it, like, 20 times in this fucking show. Oh, man. We were all like, this guy deserves an osc for that. Beautiful play, though. Congratulations on a great run. So that's.

[Matt Koplik]

That was written by Edward Albe. Can you believe it?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Was it really under a pseudonym? What? Have you ever had an experience like that, though, where you. You.

[Matt Koplik]

You.

[Rob W. Schneider]

The show ended and you just. I couldn't. You couldn't move.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, I've had. It's rare that I've seen a show, and afterwards, I'm like, I need a minute before I stand up. There have been shows that have had moments in them that I was so locked in that I was like, I can't. I. No one needs to look at me right now while I'm watching this. One of which will be covered on an upcoming episode of this podcast, the Spoiler alert. It's how I learned to drive. The second time I saw it. Oh, yeah. The first time I saw it, I hadn't fully connected my traumatic sexual history with the play. And the second time I saw it, years ago by. And I fully, like, came to that.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

Myself. And I went with my mom, and it was a whole thing. I. I'll get into that for that episode.

[Rob W. Schneider]

But was it very quickly? You don't have to. Was it cathartic?

[Matt Koplik]

I think it was more cathartic for my mom because I had just told her about the ordeal, and so she still was kind of grappling with it. And so that play was very healing for her to watch, which is odd because that plays on about a voice teacher. In some ways, Phantom of the Opera probably would have been a better show for her. It's more on the nose about a voice teacher who just completely manipulates his very thin, very white, very pretty student.

[Rob W. Schneider]

So there was another one besides you? Is that too dark? Jonathan's shaking his head.

[Matt Koplik]

I know the joke you were making. I'm not letting you get away with it. I'm just gonna keep going.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Can I ask Jonathan if he's ever. If he's ever seen it? Jonathan, was there ever a play you saw that made you go, oh, wow, like, afterwards, like, you couldn't get up. You were so moved by it. He says, next to normal.

[Matt Koplik]

Mm. A lot of people had that one. I'd say the two for me, were. I. The closest I had to that, because I did have to sit for a minute, were the. I had seen Fun Home at the Public and really loved it. And then I went to the final Broadway preview, like, the night before they opened and all the small changes they had made, and the production itself came together in a way that was just shattering to me. And I definitely had to sit there for a minute and kind of collect myself. And then Yerma with Billy Piper at the Park Avenue. That production was so interesting, but her performance was so unbelievable because you're watching a woman literally unravel before your eyes, and by the end of the show, you're just like, I don't know how she can get up because I can't get up.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, shit. Okay, cool. Wish I had seen that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's okay. And then, I mean, there were other shows that I didn't want to get up because I was just like, theater is dead and I want to live in the ruins now.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Can you give me an example?

[Matt Koplik]

The revive most recent revival of 1776, or as I like to call it, Mamilton.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Did, did you. Okay, gotta laugh on Jonathan. Keep that in the act. Keep that in the act.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I, I, I've been, I've coined Mamilton since 2023, and I've had people try to steal it from me. Certain, certain friends of ours have tried to act like they came up with that joke. And I was like, girl, I have receipts. I posted it on Instagram in 2023. Thank you very much.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Well, at least you're not petty.

[Matt Koplik]

So I think a lot of things are loud, but. So I did not see the goat or who is Sylvia? When it was on Broadway. I remember the advertisements for it. I remember specifically the advertisement in the Times with Mercedes Ruhl and Bill Pullman. With the goat.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And then I remember when Sally Field and Bill Irwin went into the show and what a big deal that was and seeing the advertisements for that. But I never actually saw the show, and I never felt like there was a lot of talk about it. Maybe it's because I was so young.

[Rob W. Schneider]

There actually was. There, There was, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Talk to me about the talk.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Um, it was, like, on. It was, like, in just about every single newspaper at the time. Everybody was talking about it because it was so scandalous. Um, and the fact that people were going, well, it's a play about a guy who has sex with a goat, but it's one of the most beautiful plays I've ever seen. So that was sort of like the, the chatter around town. So there was a lot of buzz about it, but it was hard to, like, enlist people to come because they were like, this feels like it's something for shock value. But if you went to see it. You didn't regret it, that's for sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I remember the talk about the play itself in terms of the subject matter. That's what I mean is I don't remember there being a lot of talk about people seeing the play and raving about the play. And it might be because just ultimately a lot of people weren't going because of that.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah, but the people that did go were very enthusiastic about it. Really enthusiastic about it. Yeah. Well, and. And then they said that the second cast was better than the first cast. And I don't know if. How. If that was even possible. Cause Mercedes Rul. Bill Pullman. It's one of those amazing things I've ever seen in my life.

[Matt Koplik]

So I did some research. I went to the library a while ago and watched it with a friend, and I took some notes and I went out and bought the script again so I could sort of, you know, remember a bunch of the plirit. And then I did some research on the reviews for the original company and then for Sally Field and Bill Pullman. And so, first of all, everybody, the original Broadway production of the Goat or who Is Sylvia? Premiered in 2002 at the John Golden Theatre. It opened straight on Broadway. There was no out of town. There was no regional stuff. I believe Alby wrote it in 2000, but it did not premiere till 2002. And as you mentioned, it was Mercedes Ruhle and Bill Pullman. The rest of the plays that Broadway season were if you ever leave me, I'm going with you. 45 seconds for Broadway, QED, an almost holy Picture, Metamorphoses, the Smell of Kill, Fortune's fool, the Graduate, Top Dog, Underdog, the Mystery of Charles Dickens. And then the major musicals that season were Urinetown, Thoroughly Modern Millie, Mamma Mia, and Between Smallest Success, three of which we have covered on this podcast. My memory, because it was up the Goat was up against Metamorphosis, Fortunes fool and Top Dog Underdog. I re. I believe Top Dog Underdog won the Pulitzer right before it opened up Broadway, because it premiered at the Public and then moved to Broadway. And I believe it won right before that opened. Yeah. And Metamorphosis also was a very buzzy off Broadway hit that moved to Broadway. I saw that and the whole thing.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Metamorphosis.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I saw Metamorphosis.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I was in that in college.

[Matt Koplik]

Were you the girl who has sex with her father?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah. But I was also in a play called Metamorphosis, and that's our history.

[Matt Koplik]

That's our history. It all comes down to Tabitha.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I got a laugh from Jonathan on that one. So now it's one for one. We're tied. So wonderful.

[Matt Koplik]

Glad to hear it. The thing about Metamorphosis I remember was everyone talked about the pool. Like, oh, there's a big pool on stage and everything happens in the pool. And it was very beautiful. It was very beautifully done production. It won Mary Zimmerman a Tony Award for best direction. I felt at the time that everyone thought that it was sort of like a three way race between the Goat, Top Dog, Underdog, and Metamorphosis. And no one was really quite sure which was gonna win because Top Dog had the Pulitzer. Metamorphosis kind of had the best reviews of the three. And the Goat had a lot of great reviews, except for one. And the crucial one was Ben Brantle in the New York Times. He did not love the play. Yeah, he really enjoyed Mercedes. He really enjoyed Bill Pullman. I have a quote from him.

[Rob W. Schneider]

He.

[Matt Koplik]

He likened the first scene of the show to a Neil Simon play and noted that he said that people would be confused if they walked in hearing this was an Edward Albee play because of how many punchlines, how many one liners the opening of the show had. But ultimately, Brantley found that the play did not live up to its hopes. His quotes that I had here are, as usual in Alby's world, language has its limits in accommodating the ineffable. Too much repetition of message hammering speeches and exchan a feeling that it lacks the courage of its darkest convictions. But it's good to have him back on Broadway anyway, even if he's wearing kid gloves. That is a play on words. But then when he saw but this is it, he was the only one that I could find.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Meanwhile, if the play had come from England, he would have thought it was the most brilliant fucking thing that was ever written. They'd slap British accents on those people. He would, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I have so much to say about people and how they fucking wax poetic about critics of the past. And I say this as somebody who loves Frank Rich, but I read all of Frank Rich's reviews and I'm like, even when you're wrong, I think you have something smart to say. And I don't think you're wrong that often. But people, yeah, but people. Once we had fucking Jesse Green. People wanted Jesse Green to be the critic of the New York Times the entire time. Ben Brantley was the critic. And then Jesse Green becomes the critic of the New York Times. And Brantley leaves and all of a sudden, everyone's like, I miss Brantley. He wasn't always right, but he was so good. And you read some of the reviews. He had he wrong frequently. And when he got it right, he got it beautifully right. But he had his. His caveats like everybody else. As Rob mentioned, if it was a British import, that man loved it to high heaven. If it was dense, penetrable, he loved it.

[Rob W. Schneider]

The we had to sit through because he said it was good. Remember that? Remember the Pitman Painters? Everyone's talking, oh, the Pitman. Both boring shows ever saw in my life. Literally, it was people watching paint dry. Jonathan, you were watching paint dry literally on stage. It was the most boring fucking thing I ever saw in my life.

[Matt Koplik]

Remember that?

[Rob W. Schneider]

We all have to see it because he liked it. What'd you say? Rock and Roll was yours?

[Matt Koplik]

No, Tom Stoppards. Rock and roll. And I didn't see coast of Utopia. I understand that. It was a very beautiful production, but also it was very controversial because Charles Isherwood, who I have very little respect for at the time, wrote an article for the Times where he said, okay, I'll admit it. I was bored throughout every part of coast of Utopia. And the New York elite were like, oh, my God. How dare you say that? It's. It's Tom Stoppard. He's so smart. He's so brilliant. I'm like, how many of you actually enjoy a Stoppard play?

[Rob W. Schneider]

They like to say that they went. It gets them out of the house. Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, okay. So I was out waiting for Gadot yesterday.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, I'm sorry. How was Gato? With the guy from Bill and Ted?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, with Keanu and Alex Winter. I still don't like that play very much. And I think this episode will come out after my review for it. But, I mean, I just don't like Beckett. I find him insufferable. But when I was leaving the theater, I heard a young woman say behind me how proud of herself she was for seeing the play. And I was like, you just described. It was like you just described the mentality so many people have when they go see boring plays, because it's not, oh, this play is good.

[Rob W. Schneider]

It's.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm smart for being here.

[Rob W. Schneider]

You're right. I'm not disagreeing with you. It's so stupid.

[Matt Koplik]

You're just giving me a face like, I ate your chicken.

[Rob W. Schneider]

No. Did you? I was saving it for dinner. Did you?

[Matt Koplik]

You don't need any more chicken, Bob.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, I love chicken. Actually had chicken for lunch. Jonathan's very impressed. I just. Because you can't.

[Matt Koplik]

You're becoming your guests from behind the curtain. That's exactly what you're doing.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I had chicken once in 1972. It's literally my whole life.

[Matt Koplik]

Just to say, though, you know, many of the other reviews for the Goat were very positive, including Charles Isherwood in Variety. But when Sally Field and Bill Pullman came in, Brantley, he was less up on the play so much as he felt that Sally Field and Bill Irwin's take helped the play be a little more leveled because she. In his mind, because Mercedes is such a strong presence on stage, she, like, comes out like a gladiator, essentially. She looks like a gladiator from the Upper east side. When the plague gets a lot more violent and tumultuous, he's like. That feels inevitable coming from her. And Sally Fields, circa 2002, she's this little thing with her lack of bone density, as we all know from her. Her commercials. And he says, no osteoporosis. He says. He said the urban sophisticate dialogue does not come off as naturally on her as it does on Mercedes. But the tragic conclusion of the play actually feels more powerful because you're watching what seems like a normal woman become this hysterical, for lack of a better term, banshee. And he's like. He said, that makes it more exciting for me. But he's like, I still feel the play has its issues, and to be fair, I agree with him. But Mercedes, having watched it at the library, I do think Mercedes Rule and Bill Pullman were fantastic. Bill Pullman was so fantastic that for a while I thought I didn't like his performance. And then I realized, oh, no. He's perfectly inhabiting a character that I actually have issues with. Not just the goat stuff, but, like, we'll get to it. Yes. You look like you're about to say something.

[Rob W. Schneider]

No, I was just gonna say how wonderful he was in the performance. And you're right. I remember watching the first scene as well, being like, oh, he's not really a stage actor, you know, at first. And then I started to. Oh, my God. Thank you, Jonathan. Jonathan is actually. This is my playbill from it.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, look at that. It says, edward Albee's the goat. Or who is the goat?

[Rob W. Schneider]

And do you know they used to give out this in the playbill. They gave out an essay being like, tell your friends to come and see it. And that it's a.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, I. I did not know that they did that. But that's how you know, they were struggling.

[Rob W. Schneider]

You don't believe. We have flyers. We have flyers to tell you.

[Matt Koplik]

Please, please, please tell everyone that you don't actually see Bill Pullman put it in a goat.

[Rob W. Schneider]

That was. That's when I got up and left. I was like. At least for the curtain call. Nothing.

[Matt Koplik]

Nothing.

[Rob W. Schneider]

My friend was the. Was the prop designer on this show.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, really?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah. And he was telling me they broke every performance. There was 30 items that had to break on stage. Vases, glasses, bowls. And then they had to have a dead goat.

[Matt Koplik]

They sure did. Well, so the scene that.

[Rob W. Schneider]

She cannot get it at Walmart.

[Matt Koplik]

Now you can't get a dead goat at a Walmart. The scene that we're referring to is the structure of the show basically, is three scenes. The first scene is Stevie and Martin just sort of talking. And he's being very forgetful. Right. And doesn't really understand what's about to happen. And we find out that it's his 50th birthday and he just won this big prize, and he's going to be designing this, like, $200 billion city in the Midwest. And his best friend since childhood, Ross, who I like to call Exposition City, because Ross's whole demeanor is either to comment on everything and say things like disgusting, sick, or be like. To be like, listen, Martin, we've known each other for. For 35 years, since we were 15. Or things like, how's your. How's. How's old Todd? He's like, old Todd, my son. You mean my son who I dandied on my knees since he was a baby, who's. And I cannot believe it. And he's going to, like. It's. That is the dialogue that Ross says. Yes, but. So Ross comes to interview Martin because Ross, I guess, has a very successful TV show.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah. He's a documentary filmmaker, so it's like.

[Matt Koplik]

He does like a 60 Minutes kind of thing, I guess, but on prolific people.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah. And they're profiling Martin because he's just won the Pritzker Prize, which is the architecture prize. Right. He's the youngest guy to have won. Right. And that's what the context of the interview is.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, that and the. And the development city that he's making.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yes. He's gonna make the perfect city. The perfect city.

[Matt Koplik]

And he's bombing the interview. He can't answer anything. He's being so obtuse to the point that you feel like it's an act because he's. He's being so childlike and so literal about everything. And he just. Nothing is sinking in. And this was the part of the show where I was so frustrated watching Bill Pullman, and I realized, oh, no, he's doing exactly what the text requires, actually quite brilliantly. I just have issues with this character. But then he informs Ross about Sylvia and the goat. And then we immediately cut to the next scene, which is we find out Mercedes Rule, his wife Stevie, and their son Billy, which is, again, a little on the nose. Albie, he's fucking a goat and his son's name is Billy. But. But Ross informs Stevie via a letter, hey, your hubby be putting it in livestock.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah. Ross rats him out.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And eventually, Stevie and Martin have this. It's not even a fight, it's like a game of squash, because he's not really fighting. But she is so overwhelmed by the insanity of this situation that she just starts breaking things throughout the entire scene and constantly breaking stuff. And so that is the scene that Rob's referring to. Of all the plates and the vases and the paintings that all have to get smashed every night, she.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I'll never forget this. And if I'm getting off topic, you let me know.

[Matt Koplik]

We've been off topic a thousand times already. This is my.

[Rob W. Schneider]

What I'll never forget about her performance. And it was like, I want to do this for the rest of my life was. The first scene ends with Martin and Ross, right? Scene ends, lights come back up immediately, and she's sitting on the sofa with her hands trembling. And I was like, how does she do this eight times a week? I mean, literally, she just jumps right into the scene. And you would have felt like this was the. I know it sounds so stupid and rudimentary, but it was like watching somebody for the first time realize that their life had fallen apart. And I was like, how is she doing this eight times a week? And I was sitting very close to the stage so you could watch her quiver. Like, you could see her body shaking. I was like, how is she doing this? And she has this amazing. Maybe you're gonna talk about it, so I don't wanna cut you off, but there's this amazing monologue when she's talking about, like, when you're in a marriage, there's things you anticipate, you know what I mean? Where, you know, you imagine what happens if they get sick. You imagine if he cheats on you. And she goes through this. Listen, she goes, never in a million years do you ever go, oh, what happens if he's fucking a goat? And it was so heartbreak. The lines are so stupid and laughable. It's like an SNL sketch when you're reading it. But they played it with such beauty. God, she was so fucking good in this thing. Did she win the Tony Award?

[Matt Koplik]

She did not. She was nominated. Who does she lose to? She lost to.

[Rob W. Schneider]

God, she was good.

[Matt Koplik]

It's also. It's a pretty good year. I'm Pretty sure the 2002 Tonys. This is obviously the Millie Years of Sutton wins the Year of the Goat. So it was Mercedes Rule for the Goater. Who is Sylvia? Helen Mirren for the Dance of Death, Laura Linney for the Crucible, Kate Burden for Hedda Gobbler, and they all lost to Lindsey Duncan in Private Lives.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, I did see Private Lives. She was fantastic.

[Matt Koplik]

That was. I remember that. Private Lives. That was. That was heralded as, like, the best Private Lives since the Maggie Smith production.

[Rob W. Schneider]

It was pretty good. It was pretty good.

[Matt Koplik]

And they won set design for that, too, which was. That was back when plays and musicals had to compete together for design categories.

[Rob W. Schneider]

So when a set design.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, when a play beats a musical for set design.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Did you ever see the set? Did you ever see the performance?

[Matt Koplik]

I didn't get to see it live. I remember I watched. I mean, I watched that telecast. So I saw the video they did of the set. I was like, oh, that's stunning.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah, it was beautiful. It was beautiful. So she didn't win. She lost to Lindsey Duncan. Okay, cool.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Mercedes won a Tony for Lost in Yonkers. I don't know.

[Rob W. Schneider]

That's brilliant.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I don't know if she won a second one, but I know she wants that one.

[Rob W. Schneider]

She beat out Stalker Channing for Six Degrees of Separation, which is also another brilliant performance. Do you cover that on any of your podcasts? What?

[Matt Koplik]

The who beat who?

[Rob W. Schneider]

No, Six Degrees of Separation.

[Matt Koplik]

I haven't covered it yet. I have. I haven't covered any. What's his name?

[Rob W. Schneider]

John Guerre.

[Matt Koplik]

John War. John.

[Rob W. Schneider]

It's. Was it John Guar.

[Matt Koplik]

John.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Why?

[Matt Koplik]

I said John Lahr and I knew that was wrong.

[Rob W. Schneider]

That's an author.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, I also had Bert Lahre on the brain because of Waiting for Godot.

[Rob W. Schneider]

That's the Cowardly Lion.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. This is the Goat with Martin and Ross right here. This is what this guy looks.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Why don't we do that? We can do that.

[Matt Koplik]

Fantastic. Who do you want to be? Martin.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Jonathan, you should play the sun at some point. You'd be very good in it. Jonathan should play Billy. Can we get him a scene, please?

[Matt Koplik]

Sure. He's going to have to shave though. If he wants to pass his 18.

[Rob W. Schneider]

He says to put him in coach.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. That's what Billy also says he does.

[Rob W. Schneider]

It's a very weird play.

[Matt Koplik]

The thing about Billy as. As you can know. Keep talking to your friend while I talk. Billy is Stevie and Martin's gay son, which they refer to him as that a lot, actually, in a play as. No, Billy, our gay son. Or. Yeah, Billy who's gay. It's a lot of that.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Who they're still kind of uncomfortable with. Or at least dad is uncomfortable. Dad's like for all the goat, but he's like gay kid. I don't know about that.

[Matt Koplik]

No, they're all uncomfortable with it. That's sort of the. That's the thing that the. The thing that the play is. The thing that the play is tackling, the Albi is tackling with it is societal norms and societal taboos. And where is the line drawn between, you know, kink and perversion between. This is something that we should be accepting and is progressive or like. No, no, no, no, no. That is where we go into societal collapse. And obviously bestiality, along with pedophilia is like the ultimate extreme of like. No, no, no, no. We don't go there. But.

[Rob W. Schneider]

And in this one, it's incest, right? It's not pedophilia. Right. It's incest.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, incest as well. Yeah, sorry. I don't know why that didn't cross my brain, but I think I would feel like pedophilia, incest and bestiality are the three things that everyone kind of agree. Well, not everyone, because obviously there are people who do it and there are some cultures that believe in it, but like a majority of cultures believe that those three things are like the absolute no nos. And there will never. Those. There will never be a world where everyone will agree that that's okay.

[Rob W. Schneider]

There are some cultures where bestiality is accepted probably.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, there are a lot of people.

[Rob W. Schneider]

On this earth, Rob never liked the French.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, but there are cultures where pedophilia is accepted, where like 12 year old girls get married to 40 year old men.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Sure, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Still to this day. And there are. There is still incest abound. You know what I hate is if you want to know where we are as a society, go on pornhub and see what the most googled genres of porn are.

[Rob W. Schneider]

What are they?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, incest is like numero uno.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Really?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, let me be clear. And it's. And you can. And you can tell by the way, because there's more and more of it popping up all the time these days, but it's. And it's not necessarily genuine incest. And. Sorry. I should have absolutely put a tag at the top of this episode for everyone about, like, hey, guys, this is what we're talking about today. What I mean is that there are a lot of, like, studio porns with actors where they're doing these written scenes as brothers or cousins or stepdads or stepmoms and things like that.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Who writes these scenes?

[Matt Koplik]

People who want the views because they look at the algorithm. But we. Sorry. I feel like my brain is short circuiting right now because of all of this, but, like, I don't want to make it seem like all I do is look at porn, but it is part of a lot of our lives. I feel like we swayed from scripted porn in the 80s and 90s. You know, you sent me a lot of those clips on Instagram, but I think they're fantastic.

[Rob W. Schneider]

It's hard.

[Matt Koplik]

It's hard. Yes. It's art. Now you sent me the things of, like, sometimes Rob will send me these reels on Instagram or on Facebook that takes so good scripted scenes from, like, 80s and 90s porn before they ever get to anything dirty. And it's always just like.

[Rob W. Schneider]

It's the lead up with the bad acting.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, the bad acting. It's always the attack of, like, when you can't pay the electric bill and it's some electrician being like your wires are short circuited or short fees or whatever. And the other guy's like, I can't afford this. And the other guy's like, well, why don't you suck this? And he's like, well, if that'll do it. And Rob's like, if only.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Too much animation. That they all do. They all sound so dead in their voice.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, they're dead inside. They don't want to.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, that's beautiful. Precious. That's great. Okay, thank you. Continue.

[Matt Koplik]

You watch gay porn actors get far more into it in the 21st century when they don't have to do the dialogue anymore. They just. They're like, hey, Brandon. Hey, Josh. Talk to us about your surfer week. You went to the beach.

[Rob W. Schneider]

What the fuck are you watching, Matt? This doesn't sound right.

[Matt Koplik]

What am I watching? I don't even think this is anything I've seen. I think I'm just pulling out phrases at the back of my head.

[Rob W. Schneider]

You strike me as somebody, like, puts on, like, a line in winter and jerks off to it. That's kind of how you strike me. But maybe I'm wrong.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm not that faggy. Rob. No.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Just talk to me about the private live set design. So I really don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a beautiful set design.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Okay, keep going.

[Matt Koplik]

I love art. I love artistry. It's a wonderful thing in this world. You should get into it.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I don't like art. I'm a sports guy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, sports. Can you do your Rob Goulet for a second?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Sports.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you, sports. But this is, this is all the same. God damn it. In the play, Billy is gay. And yes, like his parents, Martin and Stevie are. They say they're okay with it. They aren't. It's more like it's the difference between tolerance and acceptance. They are tolerating it. They are not accepting it. And same thing with Ross. And you see that as Billy kind of pushes against his father about the. This, you know, you're sick. This is gross. This is disgusting. How could you, you know, you, you monster. And Martin, in the heat of the moment, calls him. I know I've said this word many times, but I'm saying it in a harsh way this time. Calls him a faggot. And you. It's. It reveals that for all of the, I guess, evolvement, I don't say evolution because that's, that's not the correct version of it. But, you know, as they, as these characters claim to be evolved and high minded, there's still so much about them that is primitive and conservative and the stigmas that they all have. And Martin is trying to make the case for himself of, I don't view myself as sick. I view myself as happy. I'm very happy with this goat. And shouldn't people do what makes them happy? And that is a thing to take on in theory until you bring on goats.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Do you mean like the actual, like, physical manifestation of the goat? Are you just talking metaphorically in general?

[Matt Koplik]

Like there, there was a comedy special before she got canceled, before she, she even had her talk show where Ellen DeGeneres was saying in her stand up, you know, people go, oh, if we allow gay marriage, what's next? You could, you can marry your. Your daughter, Nella DeGeneres. The joke she basically said was like, a dog doesn't know what's happening. A dog can't give you consent for marriage. Can't sign your name on a piece of paper. Like, what. What are you talking about?

[Rob W. Schneider]

I knew a dog in a circus once. He could sign people's names. It Was really impressive. It wasn't a big circus. In fact, it was just my uncle's basement. You were saying?

[Matt Koplik]

Why did I ask you to be my guest on this episode? I have. I'm regretting this every second.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Because Robbie Roselle was busy, I'm assuming.

[Matt Koplik]

Is that why Robbie Roselle was busy?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Matthew?

[Matt Koplik]

I love you, Ravi. I love you so much. No, come on.

[Rob W. Schneider]

He would find that he's gonna rip you a new asshole for that I can't wait joke.

[Matt Koplik]

No, Robbie likes good jokes and you and I both know it.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah, that's true. He does like a good joke.

[Matt Koplik]

We have spent too many red wine soaked nights with that bitch where we've all ripped each other new assholes. But we got away with it. Cause they were funny.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Wait, can I tell you something that's gonna sound name droppy, But I don't want it to sound name droppy.

[Matt Koplik]

I already name dropped Robbie Roselle.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Okay, so I went to Joe Allen's again yesterday for a meeting. And the guy was like, oh, your usual table? And he brought me to the back where we were. And I was like, I have a usual table. But then I realized it's behind a column where nobody can see me. And I was like, boy, isn't that appropriate?

[Matt Koplik]

No, it's where you can get your privacy.

[Rob W. Schneider]

It's true. You can talk back there. You can talk back there.

[Matt Koplik]

That's why Janine was so happy. Because we could talk and no one could hear us.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, my God. Do you think those servers ever, like.

[Matt Koplik]

Eavesdrop if they know what's good for them? I would say our conversation that night was a good one. There was a lot going on.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Tell them everything we talked about, Matt. Where would you like to start? Well, who got fired from this?

[Matt Koplik]

Who got fired from what?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Who fell down a trapdoor through that?

[Matt Koplik]

Who almost cheated on who with who on the. On a show?

[Rob W. Schneider]

What was it? Her. Ann Reinking is so good.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I guess that entrance will have to be fixed or whatever that line is.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Always tasteful, never vulgar.

[Matt Koplik]

Always tasteful, never vulgar. Yeah. Janine Lamonta does a great and ranking impression.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Janine Lamona can do any impression.

[Matt Koplik]

It's true. She can. We also spent a solid 10 minutes at that table talking about my scratched throat and weight loss. That was a nice moment.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah. We all thought Matt was dying, but he looks like he's much better now, so we're really happy about that.

[Matt Koplik]

That's Rob's way of saying that I've gained weight.

[Rob W. Schneider]

No. Didn't I say you Needed to eat. Didn't I say I was concerned?

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. No, but that I've gained weight since that dinner.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yes. That makes me happy. That's a good thing. You get too skinny. You can't do that. That. What did you have for dinner tonight?

[Matt Koplik]

I haven't had dinner yet.

[Rob W. Schneider]

What the hell is wrong with you? It's late. Eat something.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm too busy doing a podcast with my friend Rob W. Schneider, bestselling author of Queer Musicals and host of the popular podcast Broadway Bound.

[Rob W. Schneider]

It's a good place. She kills the goat at the end, everyone goes, and it's a big deal. Go get some food. We're done.

[Matt Koplik]

So, no, let's get back to this theme, though, of societal taboos, Martin's claim. Because in his conversation with Stevie, when she's breaking all the plates and she basically says, I want to know everything, it's actually very reminiscent of that scene from Closer with Anna. And I forget the other character. It's Clive Owen and Julia Roberts in the movie, and it's Kieran Hines and Natasha Richardson in the play. But she tells him, I'm having an affair. I've been cheating on you, and I think I kind of want to leave you. And he makes her tell him every detail about her sex life with this other guy, down to, you know, what his bodily fluids taste like. And Stevie kind of does the same thing with Martin where she says, you know, you tell me how this happened. I want every detail. And every time he talks, she has some rebuttal and some joke to make, and then. And smashes a plate or smashes a vase or smashes a painting. There's a very. I forgot about this moment. I'm glad that I reread the play for this moment, because Billy, their son, he goes off to his room. They make him go to his room so he can, you know, be out of the line of fire. And when she smashes a couple of vases at the beginning, just out of sort of like, she needs to get this aggression out, Billy eventually runs down into the living room. He's like, what's going on? Are you hitting her? What is this? And he. And they tell him, no, no, no. Your mom is just throwing things and breaking stuff. She's been breaking vases. And he grabs a vase, and he says, I got you this one. I'm gonna take it with me. And she goes, I would have remembered Billy. And he goes, huh? And he walks away. And in this, it's. It's funny on stage in the script, it reads very Sad. Cause he just sort of, like, nods sadly. He's like, sure, you would have. And she. And as he walks off, she's like, no, she's shouting at him. I would have. And then when he closes the door, she's like, I might have remembered. And.

[Rob W. Schneider]

And did I tell you I saw this in London and Eddie Redmayne was. Billy.

[Matt Koplik]

You didn't tell me you saw. But I know that Eddie Redmayne played the son in that production. Jonathan Price was Martin.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah, it was very different. It was very. I mean, there was like no comedy in it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, that was at the Almeida Theater in London.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Rob W. Schneider]

So they were very serious.

[Matt Koplik]

It was straight up tragedy then.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah. And it was. It was just as effective, but it was. It was such a different tone from what I had seen in New York, which I think is a testament to, like, the durability of the piece.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure. I think that what's interesting about this. So this play is meant to be a tragedy. Literally says so on the front of the script. Definition of tragedy. And it follows a lot of the structure of a Greek tragedy. And there's even, you know, an animal sacrifice and there's some piece of trivia about something. I think tragedy in Greek means goats. Yeah. Tragedy is. Tragedy is called goat song in Greek.

[Rob W. Schneider]

What? Really?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, you got a text.

[Matt Koplik]

I got a text. I was just. It's a. It's a solicitation, but it's. I remember because when I was watching it at the library, I had done no research on it. I knew the basic premise. I did know that the goat died at the end. That was like the only two things I really knew about.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Spoiler alert.

[Matt Koplik]

Spoiler alert. But I remember watching it and I was so surprised how jarring I found the piece, and I still do. But I understand more of what Alby's going for now than I did when I first watched it, which is, you know, he's trying to take a Greek the four. He's trying to take the basic skeleton of a Greek tragedy and put it in a suburban, modern day, sophisticate living room. And. Yes. And there is, for me, sometimes a disconnect of the abundance of verbiage that you would get from a Greek tragedy or a sophisticate suburban play. And sort of the events of the. Of the piece. There are times when I find in the moment, characters are so overly eloquent that it actually takes me a little bit out of it. The moments that I find best are when I think that scene in the middle with Stevie And Martin is definitely the best scene in the play part of it, because there is this guttural reaction from her. And on top of that, there's a moment where she messes up what she's saying and she follows it up with a great line where she says, women, women in woe often mix their metaphors. I think that's the line.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's a great line, fully out of the Albie Playbook, but it comes out of a very human error. And I think that that's sort of the alley oop that I wish this play had a little more often because there are so many times when the dialogue is so I'm not going to say flowery, but considering he references Noel Coward a lot, I'll say sometimes it's a little null Cowardy for me.

[Rob W. Schneider]

And I think that was the intention of it. But you're saying it just doesn't read or pay off in the long run.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I'm not saying that he missed the mark. That is his intention. And Alby was too good of a playwright in this respect to be like, oh, you, you know, didn't do your job. I think he set out what he wanted to do. It doesn't, as you said, it doesn't really work for me in that respect.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think that is something that Brantley talked about in his review and especially with Sally Field and with Bill Irwin. The fact that the dialogue wasn't. Didn't feel so natural on their tongues. Actually made the characters feel real to him this time.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, how interesting. How interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

But also, that's. Brantley was also a star fucker and Sally Fields was a two time Oscar winning movie star. So maybe he was just like, oh, I'm a little Sally Field, she's on Broadway. That's nice.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Is he going to be on your podcast at any point, Ben Brantley, so you can talk to him about your issues?

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe there are some shows that I'll be like, looking back, do you think you missed the mark on that one?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Can I moderate a debate between you two?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. What I would really love to ask him is why did it take you that really bad production from London to like Caroline or Change?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, wow. Okay. So gloves are off. You have thoughts, you have feelings, you have opinions.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Why you didn't like Caroline or Change?

[Matt Koplik]

I loved the original production that I saw directed by George C. Wolfe.

[Rob W. Schneider]

But not the revival.

[Matt Koplik]

No. I thought it was ugly and poorly staged. I loved that it had a turntable. That was nice.

[Rob W. Schneider]

What are you, a yenta? It had a turntable. It was lovely.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, that's the big selling point right now for me is that they have a turntable.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Have you seen it?

[Matt Koplik]

No. I see it at the end of November. They have a turntable and an LED screen. That's what I know.

[Rob W. Schneider]

In Ragtime.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Can't wait. Can't wait.

[Matt Koplik]

We'll see. We'll see. As we discussed at Joe Allen, that's not really my musical.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Ragtime.

[Matt Koplik]

Ragtime. Yeah. I love listening to it. I've now seen it on stage three times and I've always been dry eyed at the end.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Really?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Okay. Okay. What? Did you see the original new.

[Matt Koplik]

I did not see the original. I saw the revival in 09. I saw it at City center and I saw a third production. I saw a regional production somewhere. Maybe it was Paper Mill and it just. I've seen. Yeah, well, I have seen the movie. I've seen the movie with what's Her Face, Mary Steenburgen and Mandy Patinkin. And I read the book. I read the book in high school, but I've seen clips of the original production. I watched the bootleg. I want to go to the library to watch it.

[Rob W. Schneider]

It was special.

[Matt Koplik]

From all accounts, the original production was a pretty epic and very well realized interpretation of the show.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah, it was good. It was very, very good. It just needed a goat and it would have been perfect.

[Matt Koplik]

In 88, Mercedes Ruhl had played Evelyn Nesbit originally. That show would be running today.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Fucking love her. Oh, my God, what is she doing now?

[Matt Koplik]

Mercedes Ruel? Yeah, mostly film, I feel. Right.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Really? Oh, she's so good.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, I feel like after she won for Lost in Yonkers, she kind of went to film and TV and.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Only really, she won an Oscar too.

[Matt Koplik]

For the Fisher King.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah. So she. Oh, God, I love her. I think she's so good. You ever hear on Frasier?

[Matt Koplik]

She's so hot on Frasier. She's so sexy on that show.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yes, she is. God, she's such a chameleon as an actor. I love her so much.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Did you see Lost in Yonkers or did you see the film of it with her?

[Matt Koplik]

I've not seen the film. I was 1 years old when Lost in Yonkers was on Broadway.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, watch the movie and bring tissues. Her performance is so good.

[Matt Koplik]

Am I jerking off? No.

[Rob W. Schneider]

You're crying, Matt. You're crying like a goddamn human being.

[Matt Koplik]

A human being. Well, as we firmly established in my life, I am Sylvia because I am the one that has ruined the Marriage.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Now, that's the production I would want to see. Do people. If you. If people pay you extra, do you reveal these people's names?

[Matt Koplik]

No, I do. I. I do love the fact that if you Google my name, the first thing to pop up is Matt Koplik, ex boyfriend.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I. I have seen that. I have seen that. So if people are talking, people are talking.

[Matt Koplik]

I think it's worth it. I've brought it up so much, and the play has made the rounds enough that people are like, who's this about? And there's no. I am very proud that there's no breadcrumbs left on the podcast or in the play where you could actually figure it out. So I am proud of that.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, this is exciting. Well, friends, if you send me a couple of bucks, I'll be more than happy to tell you. And for an extra 20, I'll throw in photos of them.

[Matt Koplik]

If you buy 10 copies, he will. He will tell you names, he will give you time stamps, and he will. And he'll send you photographic proof.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I'm trying to. Well, I'll tell you off air. Go ahead.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, I'll tell me off air. Jesus Christ. Thank you. Yeah. No, no, to be fair, also, no one's actually ever reached out and asked me, which I also appreciate. They leave that well enough alone.

[Rob W. Schneider]

That's nice. At least they respect. It's also kind of fun to have a little bit of mystery. Everyone can play a guessing game.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, I mean, everyone in my life knows, but it's. You know, the listeners don't need to know that. Also, I will. I will say this, and then we can get back to goat. I do think that the play itself is good enough, that it doesn't matter that it's based on a real thing. It's more that I use that as leverage if I ever get pushback about, like. Well, who would ever do this or say that I'm like, well, I did, and they did.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I thought you meant the Goat. And I was like, it's based on a real play or, like, a real story? That's a problem.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, absolutely. Did you not hear this story about what happened to William Gibson? And.

[Rob W. Schneider]

No, but I'll tell you, I was.

[Matt Koplik]

Trying to, like, what's the most random playwright I could think of right now?

[Rob W. Schneider]

You know, Bill Gibson once fucked a goat. Actually was a llama, but they changed it for copyright and royalty purposes.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, the llama wanted. Wanted a part in the Miracle Worker, but they couldn't get around equity rules, so they gave the Part to Patty Duke.

[Rob W. Schneider]

It's horrible. Just. Okay, line them up. It's just Patty Duke and what a Llama next to each other.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Who have you spoken to about this play in the past? Do you like. Do you. Does this play come up to you at all?

[Rob W. Schneider]

I used to teach it. I used to teach it when I would teach. There was two classes where I used it. One was a general education course that had 800 students in it, and I always had them read it. And we did scenes from it. And those kids were, like, fucking knocked on their ass. They couldn't believe it. Cause I was like. Cause I think a lot of them thought theater could be boring. And I was like, this is. You can say whatever you want about this play. It is not boring. So then I taught it as part of my script analysis course. So. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

What were some of the takeaways about the play for them?

[Rob W. Schneider]

It was so interesting. I mean, both groups. Cause one was like a big group of undergrads, and then one was, like, a more specific graduate class. They both said the same thing, which was. They were really fascinated by this idea that the play is saying, like, when does. Who does society have the right to tell you who you can and cannot love? And it can be something, you know, is this, you know, an allegory for or a metaphor for what's going on with, you know, Billy and his sexuality? So that was the big thing that they came away with. And it opened up a lot of interesting, you know, discussions, which is like, who says that this is right? Or who says you can't love this person or you can't love this thing? And there were a lot of heated debates about it. I mean, nobody was like. Like, advocating being like, oh, yeah, it's good that this guy, you know, committed bestiality. But that's. I mean, that's also a big part of the play. It's not that he's just, like, fucking this goat and he's like, yeah, that's what I get off on. He's got this strong emotional connection to this.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. He falls in love with the goat, he says.

[Rob W. Schneider]

And the way he describes, you know, looking in her eyes and stuff. And. And we laugh at it. But then there are people, I'm sure, who are laughing at it, that have been in somewhat similar positions throughout their life, Whether it's gender or race or orient, whatever it is. And who is to say who you can love and who you can't love?

[Matt Koplik]

Especially the. I'm glad you mentioned that. He talks about locking eyes With Sylvia, which. And Stevie asked, you know, why do you call her Sylvia? Does she have a name tag or something? And he said, no, that's just sort of what. But came to or felt right in calling her that. And who Is Sylvia is also a reference to. I believe it's Two Gentlemen of Verona. There's a song called who Is Sylvia? But when he talks about locking eyes with her, I mean, you've seen goat eyes before, right?

[Rob W. Schneider]

No, I usually like to keep the lights off.

[Matt Koplik]

Well done. The goat eyes are crazy looking. They. They have horizontal pupils.

[Rob W. Schneider]

First of all, if you were getting fucked by Bill Pullman, you think you'd look normal.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I mean, my eyes be rolling in the back of my head so you wouldn't see the pupils.

[Rob W. Schneider]

But I'm saying, hot, isn't he?

[Matt Koplik]

He'll always be hot. You know, he is so hot in Spaceballs, it drives me insane.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yes, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, with that.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I feel the same way about Rick Moranis.

[Matt Koplik]

Of course, Rick Moranis was a cutie back in the day. Also. Also Bill Pullman. Incredible. I mean, hot in a gross way. In Ruthless People, but yes, and so funny and Ruthless People, him and Anita Morris. So funny. That movie is funny all over. But you look at photos of goats and you look up goat eyes. The eyes are basically like on the side of their head. They have 360 vision.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Wait, you keep talking, I'm going to do this.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, Rob's going to look up goat eyes. They're on the side of their heads. Their pupils are horizontal. They. Goat eyes are not a beautiful thing. They look insane. And it is. They have this 360 vision so they can be aware of predators. Yeah, right. It's not a beaut. It's not like these beautiful like baby blue eyes with. With soul. And. And they look dead. They looked at. Or they look wild. They either look dead or they look wild.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Holy shit.

[Matt Koplik]

So for him to say when he locked eyes with Sylvia, he. He could see into her soul. So he claims. I mean, in some ways you have to ask yourself, is this for real then? Because it's not like goat eyes are these naturally beautiful things that all of us can, you know, find, go into a trans. I spent two minutes online looking at them and I was like, I don't ever want to see these again. But the question then also becomes, is this real for Martin? Well, not as this real for Martin. It is real for him. But is this a genuine connection or is Martin having some sort of mental collapse, some nervous breakdown? Cause we see that there's all this other stuff happening with him. But then the question is, is that stuff happening with him? Because the burden of this life weighing on him.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yes. I think he's going through a midlife crisis and I think he's confused about, you know, how do I tell my wife I'm having an affair? And on top of that, it's with an animal. So I know when I read the play, I never think like, he's got. They talk about dementia really early on in the play.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Alzheimer's.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, sorry, Alzheimer's. Yeah. He's like. I think I've.

[Matt Koplik]

All. Because he can't remember anything. And Steven said no.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I think he's. I think his mind is so distracted because I think the relationship is coming to a head. Do you know what I mean? I think he's either gonna have to say, yeah, I wanna leave you for this animal, or he's gonna have to leave the animal first. So I think he's got 90 other things going on, but I don't think he's having a mental collapse. And I think that actually makes the play even more effective is that you can't write off the fact that he's got mental health issues.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Rob W. Schneider]

You know what I mean? You can't be.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but I. I think because it's such a wild thing to do, you are going to find people who are going to fight for that narrative. You know what I mean? And I. I agree with you. I think that in order to make the play more interesting, you can't have him. You cannot play Martin like he's having a nervous collapse. He has to seem like a cogent human being. And he does get. And he does get more cogent as the play continues. Once the. In a lot of ways, once the secret is revealed, though he didn't want it to be, or at least not that way, he allows him to be able to talk more coherently.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And he. He taught. There are two stories he talks about. Because the other thing that the play talks about is sort of the importance or. Or lack of importance of sex. The end, which is. And I think it's very telling that this play was written by an American, premiered in America, takes place in America and other countries have done it to various degrees of reception. And because we. We live in a very puritanical country when it comes to sex. Always have. In a lot of ways it's gotten better. In a lot of ways it's gotten worse. It's swing. It's like a pendulum swing. But Martin is always Wanting to talk about the emotional connection he has with. With Sylvia, Stevie and Martin and Billy. Stevie and Ross and Billy are like, no, no, no, no, no. You. You put your penis into a goat. And Martin's like, stop being crass. And like, is that what you do or is that not what you do? He goes, yes, I do, because we make love. And they're like that, no, no, no, no, no. And he talks about going to a support group for people who are dealing with bestiality. And everyone has their own journeys that got them there. I wrote this down. There was. There's a man who was having sex with a pig. And he was doing it because he had a history of it growing up on a farm with his brothers, and that's sort of what they all did to kind of practice. And he just sort of kept doing it and he's trying to get himself off of it. There was a woman who had sex with a German shepherd because she was continually assaulted by her father and brother when she was 12 for many years. And it was the only way she could feel pleasure her because she couldn't be with a man because of. Of her ptsd. And then a man who was having sex with the goose. And this was a man who was so grotesquely unattractive that he thought he could never have an actual person have sex with him. To which Martin kind of agreed. But what Martin says is, everyone all seems so happy with their animals. He didn't understand why they were in this support group. He was there to kind of figure out what was going on with him because he had never had this before. And they make a whole point of, he's never cheated on Stevie. He's never wanted to cheat on Stevie. They tell a story. When he and Ross were younger, I guess they were right out of college, and he had.

[Rob W. Schneider]

They picked up some sex workers and stuff. And he was like, I didn't. He couldn't get around. Right. Wasn't that the thing? He loved her so much.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And he said he. He would. He'd only been dating Stevie for a short while, so in his mind it wasn't considered cheating. So it shows that it's not in his nature to stray away from her. He doesn't want to. He loves her. They fit so well. Really? I beg to differ with you. How do you mean?

[Rob W. Schneider]

You're the top.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. You're an arrow collar.

[Rob W. Schneider]

You're the top.

[Matt Koplik]

You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire. The other story that Martin talks about in the play. So when Stevie, after Stevie and Martin have their tete a tete, she finally, she's broken all she can break. She talks about, you know, as you said, the. You expect to be cheated on or you prepare for those anti. Yes. You don't prepare for this. And she says, you have, you have broken us. And you've brought me down as low as I can go and I'm going to bring you down with me. Because the one thing that Martin doesn't really feel in all of this is shame. He's angry that he's been exposed the way he has. He's. He's devastated that he's caused pain to Stevie and Billy, but he's not ashamed of being, in his words, in love with Sylvia. And so Stevie goes out the door and that's when we cut to the next scene, which is like two, three hours later.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, boy.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because he. She says, you know, how did you find her? And he tells her, oh, I, you know, we were looking for a country house and I was looking for a country house. And it's this, it was this spot, you know, two hours outside of our home that this farm exists and that's where she is and all these other things. And in the next scene we have Billy and, and Martin, they have this sort of, you know, meeting. And in the scene, Billy, he's now kind of falling apart because he's realizing, as Stevie has already come to realize and now Billy is realizing his world has ended or the world as he has known it has ended. And in this moment of, of confusion and desire and wanting to have his father love him and also not sure like who his father even is anymore, he hugs Martin and then he kisses him. And it's absolutely a sexual kiss.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yes, I remember this very vividly.

[Matt Koplik]

And yes, and it is written in the script that he intends it sexually. And Alaby even writes in moans for Billy to have while Martin is doing his best to pull off of him. And of wouldn't you know it, that's the moment when Ross comes back after all of this time and sees it and he's like, well, I don't kiss my son like that, Martin. I don't like what? Goats aren't enough for you. You now got to go to your son. And he doesn't say it like that or anything, but it's actually the original.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Actor kind of did. That's actually not bad.

[Matt Koplik]

He played him like a shit eating Upper west side sophisticate with like a long Black trench coat.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah, that was. That performance I'm still kind of confused about, but that's okay. Keep going.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, and Brle does say that in his review for Sally Field and Bill Irwin, that he's like, it helps that that the other two actors have grown a lot more in their roles and that that actor plays Ross in particular has given up a lot of the smarminess because with When I saw it at the Library, which was like two months into the run with Mercedes and Bill Pullman, that actor who played Ross was very smarmy. And I agree with Brantley in this respect because it's all as written. It's already hard to believe that Martin and Ross are lifelong best friends. And especially how this actor played him. You're like, where's the connection at all? Like, even people who are so polar opposites, you have to find some way where you're like, oh, that's why you're friends.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah, there's no connective tissue there. And what's also interesting is, if I remember correctly, that Martin. No, not Martin Ross. I think. Doesn't he also mention about the fact that he still cheats on his wife? Yeah, so it's also. And then he goes, how, you know, I can't believe it's all this, like, layers of hypocrisy that are tied up in this show. And I love, I actually love that. I don't. I think you could still get that and not have that smarbiness.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. And he, he, I, yeah, I'm pretty sure it says he still cheats on his wife. He absolutely is not okay with the Billy being gay thing. And he writes it off as, oh, it's a passing fad. He's gonna get over it. Don't worry about it. And, and sexualizing a lot of things and a lot of people in a way that's very douchey. And when he walks in on Martin, on Billy kissing Martin, Martin, this, I remember this being something that I, that I didn't like and I, I didn't appreciate that Alby kind of brought this subtext to the, to the surface, where Martin very eloquently explains he's. He's got confusion and pent up sexual energy and, and trauma. Like, of course he would do something like this. Don't you understand? I'm like, Alby, we, you don't have to say that. We, we, we get it, we get it.

[Rob W. Schneider]

We got it.

[Matt Koplik]

But Martin then goes into a story. He says, I, I met a man at the gym who Told me a story about having his 1 year old B his knee. And as he's bouncing him up and down, he noticed that he himself, the man, was starting to get erect. And it wasn't that he was turned on, it wasn't sexual. Just like his body was having its natural thing. And the moment his wife came into the room to take the baby away, he gave the baby to her and it went away. And he's like. And he thought nothing of it. And I remember the story when I watched it, I didn't remember the rest of it. And it's in the script where Billy says, was that me? Was I the baby? And Martin says, no. And then Billy asks again, and Martin says, no again. But in parentheses, Alby writes, clearly a lie. So Martin has. Yeah, Martin has so clearly a lie. Gently, of course, not Billy. And so Martin has told a story about when Billy was a baby, of this happening. And Martin, I guess, connects that to the rest of what everyone's been talking about, which is that sex and sexuality are these acts that come out of human nature, but they're not the be all, end all, and they don't define us. In Martin.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And the other characters kind of disagree in a lot of ways. Rob, we're having a conversation straight out of Sex and the City.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Now, I have never seen Sex and the City.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, you saw the original Sex and the City, the Golden Girls.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, yes, that I did do. That I did do. But I never saw, in a lot.

[Matt Koplik]

Of ways, Sex in the City is a younger, definitely campier Golden Girls. But the thing about Sex and the City, and I'm bringing this up because I think it's relevant here. I mean, you're aware that. And just like that came and went, right?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And there was a lot of talk about why is this not working. Besides the fact that the writing is terrible, besides the fact that the fashion is terrible, but. And like, we brought in all these other characters to replace Samantha. Isn't that great? We have all these plot lines. And what makes the original Sex and the City work so well, besides the fact that those four women had really great chemistry together, was that every topic that they cover on the show has four points of view, no matter what. Every time they have a guy with a thing, Samantha has a point of view, Charlotte has a point of view, Carrie Moretta. And they're either all completely opposite of each other or they're like, just different enough that there's a debate to be had. And the big thing is, like, to Samantha, everything is about sex. It's all about sex. To Charlotte, it's not about sex at all. Sex is something you kind of deal with to get to the romance, to get to the matrimony and the domestic bliss. And they both kind of learn through their own experiences and their conversations with each other that both of them are a little bit right. When Charlotte marries her perfect husband, Trey, and he can't get it up, she realizes, oh, no, I do like sex, and I do need sex in my life. It's not the only thing, but it's a very important part that once it's gone, it needs to be there. And Samantha learns that sex cannot, cannot take up all the space in your life because it's so fleeting. And there's so much that can last beyond it, like an emotional connection, which she eventually learns. And that's sort of the conversation that's constantly happening in the Goat or who is Sylvia of? Is sex really all there is? No, but it is a part of the human experience. And you can't just dismiss it because you don't want to have that conversation. It's there, and it is important. I mean, think about today. Like, how many gay men now define their personalities tied to the fact that they are gay. As you were just saying, how I am so gay that I can masturbate to the Tony Awards. Apparently, according to Rob W. Schneider.

[Rob W. Schneider]

No, I said it was the private, live set design.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, sure, that too.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Because there are straight men who masturbate to the Tony Awards. So I think there's a very clear line of delineation.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, I did watch that set design on the Tony Awards. So. Potato, potato.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Pretty. Pretty hot. Pretty hot set design. Remember? It was like you were looking at a Paris hotel, like, from the bottom up. And so it had that amazing angle to it. Oh, my God. That was freaking good. Oh, my God, it was so good. But, you know, you were saying. I'm so sorry. That identifying.

[Matt Koplik]

I keep talking because you weren't saying anything. I want you to talk now.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Well, I was getting a little nervous. You started perspiring, and we're talking about masturbating. And then you mentioned a goat. I should be paying more attention to this conversation.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, and this is where I now bring up Sean Cody. So who is sponsoring this episode?

[Rob W. Schneider]

That's wonderful. I saw him in the Goat. Literally.

[Matt Koplik]

So do you remember that story, though, that Martin talks about with the baby?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Because you could feel a pin drop in the audience. I mean, that was the whole thing about this, is that first scene, you're sitting there and you're snickering and you're laughing and you think, oh, this is gonna be a dumb little comedy about bestiality. Ha ha ha. And then, holy shit, it takes a left turn. And then that third final scene comes in, it takes another left turn. And you're like, he's talking about bouncing a baby and getting erect and the son's kissing the father. You're like, what the fuck is happening on this stage? So, yes, I do remember that. I mean, they talked and you could literally. You ever been where the audience becomes one? You know what I mean? Where you just feel everyone's collective energy, just like going to one entity. It was during Mercedes Rule's speech about what you plan for when you fall in love. And it was when he started talking about bouncing the baby and then when the son kissed him that I. I'll never forget that. Never forget those three things.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. It's interesting to look at all the ways in which Alby goes for things that ultimately are melodrama, but they don't feel. They don't feel for shock value. They. I feel like, no, they. They make sense in the world. But because as I said, it's not the. It's not the events of the play that I had issues with. It was. For me, there was a disconnect sometimes with the dialogue. And part of that also could be performances. I wonder what it would be like with a different actor playing Ross. But like, there are lines that are. Are just so good where, you know, Martin and Stevie are having a confrontation and she makes a joke and he says, be serious. And she shouts back, no, it's too serious for that. And then at one point, either he says it or she says it, but someone says, shut your tragic mouth. And I think that's such a great line.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Is that on a T shirt somewhere?

[Matt Koplik]

I'm gonna put it on a T shirt. That's gonna be part of our merch, baby. Shut your tragic mouth.

[Rob W. Schneider]

The goat. Oh God, it's so good. And so. But wait a minute. So wait, are you saying you have a problem with the dialogue? The way it was performed or the way it's been or was written, or a combination of both?

[Matt Koplik]

I think a combination of both. I personally would like to take a scalpel and go through the play and just trim off some lines here or there. Nothing about plot, nothing about even, you know, full on scenes. Just like specific lines where I just feel there might. Where a sentence maybe goes on for five words too Long, or. I think a line is concise. But then Albie writes three more after that, which is. Honestly, that's something that I've seen a lot of great playwrights do. And it's interesting to me that Albie was so strict about coming Back to Virginia Woolf and cutting it as much as he did. When I do think that the goat, while it is, you know, an hour and 45 minutes, it doesn't need, like, 20 minutes cut off of it, but I think that there are just moments where you could definitely scrape off some. Some excess skin.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Do you feel that it prevents the momentum from going forward when they stop to do those poetic, verbal battles, or.

[Matt Koplik]

Not the battles themselves again? It's. It's. There are moments when I feel that the point has been made. And then he hammers it, to quote Bramley, he hammers it, like, two more times in that same.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Why. Why do you think he did that, though?

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know. I wonder how much development this play actually had. And I wonder how much workshopping was done either before it went to Broadway or when it was in previews, how much editing was done, or if it was sort of like, no, this is kind just sort of locked in and Elby kind of walked away. Because there was a lot about it. That's great. But there is stuff where I'm like, I wish that he. I wish someone bigger and more imposing than him, sat him down, was like, you have to find a way to shave off three pages, go through this thing, and, like, go line by line and see what you're going to cut.

[Rob W. Schneider]

What if they did tell him that and it was, like, 10 pages longer originally? This is what they let him have.

[Matt Koplik]

Then that's great. Then that this is better than it would have been 10 pages longer.

[Rob W. Schneider]

That doesn't. It's so funny. It doesn't bother me as much. I don't know. It doesn't bother me as much. Cause I always find it really interesting, like, in the middle of a battle or a conflict, that the most absurd conversations can happen. And I find what I love about this is she's literally saying, you're my husband. You're having sex with an animal. And then they have a moment to talk about, like, the past tense of a verb or, like, what is the plural of a specific word? And I think we've all been there, we've all done that, where you're in the middle of an argument and suddenly something from totally out of left field, like, pops into that conversation. So I kind of enjoyed that. I didn't dislike it as much.

[Matt Koplik]

That part. That stuff doesn't bother me. I think that's the stuff that actually makes it human when they're having. I mean, I do find it annoying at some points when Martin gets so tripped up on it. And I do appreciate that Albie is a playwright, has the other characters aware and frustrated that in the middle of this. In the middle is like, our. Our lives are ruined. And you can't let go of the fact that I used the wrong tense for this word.

[Rob W. Schneider]

But it's like. It's like there's an. There's a societal contract we make. And the societal contract we make says you are going to say this word in this certain way, such as the societal contract of you are supposed to sleep only with this person. So I love that that's also another element, which is he's not adhering to what society has laid out for him, and he can't figure out what the problem is. It's just something that he's. And I love that he's building a new world that's his whole. Not metaphorically, but, like, architecturally. That's what his next project is. And you're like, what would Martin's world look like to him? What is that perfect world that he wants to construct?

[Matt Koplik]

The city of the future. Cause that's the thing he keeps talking about is. Is. It's not so much that he thinks bestiality is okay. He. He is talking very much about his own specific thing. He just sees people in pain and wonders if something's making you happy, why would you stop having that thing in your life? Is. In life is already so hard. Why are we making it more difficult for ourselves? And again, that's something where you go, yeah, in theory, I'm on board with that. And then you realize what it's in connection to, which then out makes you ask the question. Like, does that make his question or his advice less sound because of what he's done? In the same way that a lot of people have trouble separating the art from the artist, you know?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Absolutely. Absolutely. I was just gonna ask you something. Shit. And it went right outta my head. Darn it. Darn it. Darn it. What did you say right before that about something? Please don't drink. Please don't drink. We need you sober for this. We need you sober for this.

[Matt Koplik]

No, it's just water and you know it.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, the things that make you happy.

[Matt Koplik]

Like.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Like, I can't. I'm trying to remember. In the play, does anyone offer Any sort of evidence to him to be like, this is why you should not have sex with this animal. I don't think anyone related to like societal conventions.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. I don't, I don't think, I do not believe anyone talks about, like diseases one could catch with, you know, having sex with livestock that's exposed to the elements 24 7. But I believe that they do talk about or it is expressed by Ross. I believe it is expressed by Ross the societal hatred or shunning of why people don't tend to have sex with animals. I believe Stevie refers to it as rape that he's raping. Yeah, she calls it rape because she, she says to him, there's no way that this goat presents herself to you and it is clear to anyone that she wants it. I, you know, you are projecting. You are sick and you are, you know, you are assaulting this animal. And then, and I guess when she can't get through to him in that respect, that is what makes her go and sort of go, Sort of makes her go and kill Sylvia out of sheer hatred and spite and lack of being able to do anything else. There's nothing left for her to break. So she has to go for the last final thing.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, my God. When they dragged that dead goat on stage and it was bloody. Oh my God.

[Matt Koplik]

And all over Mercedes.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah. Oh, it was so good. It was so good. Let me ask you a question. So Stevie would never have known that he was doing this unless Ross had spoken, I think up and said, hey, just so you know, your husband, who's my friend, is not only. He's not only cheating on you, he's cheating on you with this animal. I can't imagine us ever being in a situation like this in life. But what would you do? Who would you mind tell Ross? Who would. Would you tell? Or would you just keep it quiet? What would you do?

[Matt Koplik]

I would tell. Yeah. If I felt that the safety and the well being of the other people were in danger or being corrupted, I would, I would. I think I would. Yeah. Especially, I mean, first of all, are we talking about specifically if I found out my best friend was having sex with an animal, would I tell the partner? Or are you talking about just would.

[Rob W. Schneider]

You tell the partner? Would you tell the partner?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I think most of us would.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I don't know if most of us would. I think in our minds we'd like to. And I actually think that a lot of, I mean, how many times do you know, like a friend that's getting cheated on with an Actual human being. And you're like, I'm gonna say anything.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so that's something that's actually interesting. I have. I have been around the infidelity conversation a few times, and part of it.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Is breaking up in a restaurant. And you just go sit at the table to listen.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah, I sit right down, and I go, okay, so let's talk about what's going on.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Let me mediate.

[Matt Koplik]

I. I know I have had friends who have cheated on their person. I. The truth is that every time I have been around infidelity with friends, I did not know it was happening or I did not know the extent of it was happening until things broke. And I felt bad because I was like, oh, if I had known that this person was cheating on their. On their significant other, I. I would have said something. I don't. I don't condone this. I had a friend, a close friend of mine in college who was cheating on his boyfriend with one of our classmates, and I did not know this at all. And I remember we. He and I had a very big fight. And one of the reasons why he didn't tell me is because he knew that I would tell the boyfriend, which is also why it's so hilarious to me that. That I was part of a cheating thing, because I didn't know. Had I known, I would have said something.

[Rob W. Schneider]

It's different. Did I. I don't know if I ever told you this story, but, like, one time I was over at a. I felt so bad. I think I actually did break up a marriage, and I felt really bad about it.

[Matt Koplik]

No, you did tell me the story. But tell. But. But tell. But tell the listeners. I know. The story is so good.

[Rob W. Schneider]

So a couple invited me over to their apartment for dinner, and I went to their building, and they live in a very, like, bougie building. And security downstairs was like, give me your name. Give me your I.D. i was like, oh, I have to give, like, a blood test and a urine. I'm like, you want everything, right? So after, like, 10 minutes, the guy lets me up, and I go into the apartment. I say, oh, my gosh. Down there. It took freaking forever. And I made a joke. I was like, what do you do if a hookup comes and you don't want them to know your name? And one of them blurted it out without even thinking about it. He goes, oh, well, you called down and you tell them that. And he stopped, and him and the husband made eye contact. I don't think we really talked. Oh, yeah. And then the husband looked at him, goes, well, how do you know that? And I was like, what's for dinner? Maybe I can just take it and go. I don't think I need to be here now. Maybe.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe I. Maybe I just grab and go. Today. Yeah.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Have you been at, like, a dinner where you could, like, people are, like, actually, like, trembling with anger and you're like, oh, God, I hope there's no dessert. I want to go home.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's called being the child of divorce. I was. I was there when my parents would have those moments, and I couldn't go home and get away from it. I just went up to my room.

[Rob W. Schneider]

At least you were, like, had some emotional investment. These were just two friends. I didn't know what the hell was going on.

[Matt Koplik]

You have other friends besides me?

[Rob W. Schneider]

You know what? This has been a great talk. Thanks so much for listening to Broadway Breakdown.

[Matt Koplik]

It really helps that I'm not married, because if I were, you would absolutely break up that marriage one way or another.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Other how?

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know. You'd find a way.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I wouldn't. I'd be very supportive. I would hope I could be supportive.

[Matt Koplik]

But you'd say the one thing that would. That would break the thing.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I. Please, please. What would I say? I'm very polite.

[Matt Koplik]

They want to hear my Christine Eversol impression.

[Rob W. Schneider]

No, I can't do that. Not. Not so close to September. I can't.

[Matt Koplik]

Not of her talent, of her beliefs.

[Rob W. Schneider]

That was still nine. Eleven was an inside job. Remember that? You know that's not on YouTube anymore. They took it down.

[Matt Koplik]

Down. Oh, her talking about 911 friends.

[Rob W. Schneider]

There was. This was. There was footage out there. We're not. This. This is not an alleged thing. She. It's her and Alex Jones, and they were standing outside of the. Where the Twin Towers collapsed on one of the Memorial Day celebrations with a bullhorn, yelling about how 911 was an inside job and the government needs to tell you the truth while all these, like, mourners and stuff are walking by. I don't know. I was like, if that's what you believe, maybe there's another day that we can talk about it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Some things are told to your girlfriends over brunch. Other things you can take to the streets. Huh?

[Rob W. Schneider]

On the. On the Memorial Day. Like, that's not the best time to do it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. No, she knew what she was doing.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Also handing out flyers to war paint, which I actually thought was kind of tacky, but.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, yeah, because who wants to see war paint?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Not I.

[Matt Koplik]

Did.

[Rob W. Schneider]

You See it?

[Matt Koplik]

I sure did.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, God, that was a show, wasn't it? Remember Patti LuPone sound like Count Dracula the whole time? Time.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. I. I. Patty, I will say vocally, they both sounded great. I couldn't understand a word that came out of Patty's mouth. And the set was a set. And I really love Gray Gardens.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I. All I remember about that show was it was so clear in their contract. It was like, well, if she gets a song about this, then she has to get a song about this. And it was just like this back and and forth between the two of them. I remember, I saw. I went with a whole bunch of gays from tkts, and I was like, how is every. This is the ideal crowd for this. And everyone is bored out of their mind. God, what a. What a fun show.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, that's. We wanted that to be a diva showdown so badly. I.

[Rob W. Schneider]

You know, honestly, though, I was like, the story of these two women is amazing, but not this chapter of it.

[Matt Koplik]

That's the thing. They were like, you know, it'd be great if we did a show about Patti LuPone versus Christine Ebersole. And they're only on stage together once. What.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Do you remember the opening that was so poorly staged that an actor entered and they were like, oh, we think it's Patti LuPone. So they started clapping, and it wasn't. And then another actor entered, and they're like, oh, that must be nothing. And then finally, like, the third time, someone entered, and they're like, you can't fool us. And it was actually her.

[Matt Koplik]

It was.

[Rob W. Schneider]

It was just one of those shows that I was like, oh, my God, somebody needs to help.

[Matt Koplik]

I remember Patty's actual entrance. I remember Douglas Sills. And who was the other guy?

[Rob W. Schneider]

John Dossett. He was fabulous.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, they. They had. Both of them were on Sex the City. Actually, no, I take that back. Douglas Hills wasn't on Sex in the City. Chris Seaver was on Sex in the City, but John Dossett was. He was on Sex in the City, but they had a song called Dinosaurs. And I remember just being like, oh, you poor gentleman. You don't deserve this. This.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I feel bad.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry.

[Rob W. Schneider]

That was my impression of me watching War Paint. Sorry. That was great. Da, da, da, da da.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So I want to. I want to wrap things up a little bit on the Goat, or. Who is Sylvia here? First of all, any final thoughts on the play itself, on the characters, anything like that? Or seeing the production that you didn't get a chance to say?

[Rob W. Schneider]

No, I just. I heard There's a rumor that it's going to be revived. And it was supposed to be. It's supposed to be Steve Carell and Sarah Paulson. And that, to me, sounds very intriguing. And they sound like really, really great casting for it. I think the play is absolutely fantastic. And I don't think Edward Albee's work was. I mean, I think he had some really monumental works. Do you like A Delicate Balance or.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I've never gotten to see it performed. I've only read it. I really liked reading it.

[Rob W. Schneider]

You liked reading it? Okay, like that. I mean, Virginia Woolf, you just can't, like, Top. It's like. It's nothing better than that. But this. This takes it one step further. And I think one of the great things seeing this show was you think in theater, you're like, oh, I've seen everything. I've seen everything you could possibly do. And then to have this play come and hold you by the throat for like, 90 minutes or whatever, however long it was, and go, no, no, no, no. There's a whole new world we haven't even begun to explore yet. It was very exciting. It was very exciting because most of the plays back then honestly, were boring. I don't know what else to say. They were all pretty. Like, a majority of the plays, not all of them, but a majority of the plays were just, you know, like the roundabout presents. Mrs. Goldfarbs lost her silverware and what's she gonna do about it? You know that. Like that it was that. It was that stuff.

[Matt Koplik]

I think that's a little unfair because there was stuff. I would say audiences were gravitating towards the boring. But we did have Top Dog, Underdog. We did have Proof. We had the.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. But those are like needles in a haystack compared. And. But even Top Dog, Underdog and Proof, they're not as shocking and raw, as visceral as the show.

[Matt Koplik]

I would say Proof has Proof, has an Act 1, like, gasp moment, but it's not out of societal taboos. It's out of plot structure. And then Top Dog Underdog has an opening image of Taboo, which is Jeffrey Wright coming out in whiteface. Yeah, but, you know, after that, Top Dog Underdog becomes much more of like a. It was just a conversation between brothers rather than a shocking dissertation on. On what? Of the line between perversion and taboo.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Before you say anything else, my wonderful assistant, Jonathan. Don't forget, friends, Jonathan David Steffens, fantastic actor. Non union, underrepresented, not represented right now. He's Leaving. He's leaving. Should I ask him any questions before he goes?

[Matt Koplik]

Matt, Would he tell the friend about the goat?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, hey, Jonathan. Nothing. Would you tell your friend he would confront the friend first?

[Matt Koplik]

I think that's fair.

[Rob W. Schneider]

He wouldn't go straight to the spouse. Would you go to the animal?

[Matt Koplik]

I think that is the dick move.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Go to the animal, pick it up for himself.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I think that is the dick move Ross does. He doesn't say to Martin, you tell Stevie or I will, I will. He just does it.

[Rob W. Schneider]

It's pretty tacky. And then he sends her a letter. Right. He can't even do. Oh, thank you, Jonathan. Thank you for everything. Thank you, friends. That was Jonathan David Steffens, don't forget. Follow him on Instagram. Follow him on Instagram. He's very talented. Just did Pretty Woman, not Tootsie. He did Pretty Woman the tour, not Tootsie.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Next up he'll be.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Hi, Jonathan. Thank you. I owe you. Just send me a Venmo request. He's dying to get out. He's dying to get out. He's not a huge Albee fan.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, not everyone is. Virginia Woolf is sort of the ultimate. And it's sort of unfortunate that he broke through with what is one of the greatest plays of the 20th century. But as he said, he does have other great works. Delicate Balance. I think Three Tall Women is incredible. I love that play. I mean, is it on the level of Virginia Woolf? No, but it is a wonderful play. Alby might have the most Pulitzers out of any playwright. He has three. He's got three Tall Women, Seascape and Delicate Balance.

[Rob W. Schneider]

How many does Arthur Miller have?

[Matt Koplik]

I think Arthur Miller just has one for Death of a Salesman.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, really? I didn't know that.

[Matt Koplik]

Wilder has two for Our Town and Skin of Our Teeth. Williams has two for Cat in the Hot Tin Roof and Streetcar. And in fact, the Pulitzer jury wasn't originally going to give him the Pulitzer first Cat in a Hutton Roof. But the administrator was like, you're going to do this?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, wow. I had no idea.

[Matt Koplik]

Alby was selected the Pulitzer for Virginia Woolf by the jury, but the administrative board said no.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah, the language, right. They were like, this is offensive.

[Matt Koplik]

And there was no award given that year.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I love. Oh, my gosh, that Pulitzer committee is so weird. Remember when they were like. They were like, oh, we're going to give it of the Icing. It's a musical. But we're not going to award the Pulitzer to the composer because you don't need music in a Musical. Did you know that George Gershwin did not get a Pulitzer immediately for of the icing? A few years later, I think he got it posthumously.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I did know that he didn't get it when it came out. I thought it was because they were like, because we're technically awarding the words, not the music.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yes, that was like the line. But behind the scenes, the idea was, we can't do that. This is not. It's amusing. Yeah, yeah. It's about the great story. Like any other play. I'm just like, that's so stupid. It's so stupid.

[Matt Koplik]

I guess once they gave it to Richard Rodgers for South Pacific, they're like, well, we should probably give George that one as well as, well they should.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I mean, he was dead at the time, so, like, what good is it gonna do him?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, he got the last laugh because everyone still knows his name. Who knows any of the names of the members of that committee?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Isn't that a Gershwin song? Who has the last laugh now?

[Matt Koplik]

I think so.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Look at you. Look at you. So smart.

[Matt Koplik]

You. You're the one who came up with a reference.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Ah, please, please. I just have a lot of time on my hands.

[Matt Koplik]

Any. So wait, when you teach this play, any other major things that kind of come up for these kids besides the fact they're like, oh, I thought plays used to be boring. But you know what, what, what is it that you think about Stevie's final act?

[Rob W. Schneider]

We took a vote on it, and actually what I used to do do was I divided the class in half and I was like, one half is the prosecution. You have to convict, convince us that she should be convicted for killing this animal. The other half was the defense team. And you had to defend her from this action. And then they would debate that. And then I would be like, okay, and now you're going to represent Martin. Someone has to make a case for bestiality and somebody has to make a case against it. And what I loved about. No, serious. What I loved about doing that was I was like, it gets them so out of their comfort zone. And I was like, I can't think of a lot of other plays that afford you that luxury. Yeah, I mean, yes, you can have wonderful, entertaining plays, educational, enlightening, whatever, but to have a play like this where you're on the edge of your seat for something that is so stupid.

[Matt Koplik]

Stupid.

[Rob W. Schneider]

It's so stupid. He's fucking a goat. It's so stupid. And they're having full on intelligent, intellectual conversations about the merits of bestiality and Then that leads into like the incestual thing. You just go, what the fuck is this thing? So I don't know. I've not really seen.

[Matt Koplik]

Actually.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Let me go back. The only time I've ever seen something similar to what I feel the audience felt during the Goat was when I saw Slavery Play.

[Matt Koplik]

Uhhuh.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Wh. Whether you like it or not, I'm just telling you like the same.

[Matt Koplik]

Was there a moment in Slave Play that you felt that way?

[Rob W. Schneider]

I think it. It wasn't there a thing with a watermelon. Right? Wasn't there?

[Matt Koplik]

It was a cantaloupe, I think.

[Rob W. Schneider]

A cantaloupe. A cantaloupe, right. There was, yeah, there. There's. There was that and that. I remember the audience getting very uncomfortable by. And then there was one more thing in there that I was like, what the hell is this? Oh, the last scene, her last monologue. Yeah, yeah. Was. That's the only time, I think, in. In, you know, in all my years of theater going, that I was like, what? You could feel the audience, like, become one and it became raw. Like all the decorum of what you're supposed to do in a theater just went out the way. Window. Talking at the actors, you know, uncomfortable walking. It was. It was fantastic.

[Matt Koplik]

Clearly you did not see Smash.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I saw Smash.

[Matt Koplik]

You saw Smoosh. You went and saw Smoosh.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I did see Smash. Did you see Smash?

[Matt Koplik]

I saw everything last season, including. Did you?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Really good for you. Did you see.

[Matt Koplik]

I saw everything last season and I saw everything the season before.

[Rob W. Schneider]

You're so good. You're dedicated. That's why you're the best. Matt. I read the reviews. Reviews.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, well, thank you. I won't be. I don't think I'll be seeing everything this season, though. It's. It's an uphill battle.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Why? Is there too much stuff?

[Matt Koplik]

No, there's not that too much stuff. There's a lot of the stuff that's available isn't providing press eats, which is fine. They don't have to give it to me. But like, things like art and Mamma Mia. Are so expensive. And I don't desire to drop the cash just so I have a review on Substack and on this podcast. So. So I'm picking and choosing. If I can't get in press wise for everything. Which shows am I gonna drop the cash for? Because I think it's genuinely important that I review it and talk about it. And I don't think that art is one.

[Rob W. Schneider]

No, I mean, listen, did you see the original?

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, I did. It was.

[Matt Koplik]

I heard lovely things about the original.

[Rob W. Schneider]

It was Victor Garber, Alan Alda, Alfred, Molly. And it was watching three of the greatest, you know, tennis players just bat this ball over the net. And it was. It was so good. The play itself, to me, I'm not a huge fan of her work in general. I remember reading Bren Brantley's review, A God of Carnage, and you would have thought this was the most brilliant, observational play about society. I was like, it's a bunch of rich people arguing about, like, desserts. Like, I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm not seeing this.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I didn't think it was the most incredible indictment. I thought it was a fun indictment. I was like, yeah, it's very obvious what's going on here, but I'm having a good time watching it.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, good for you. I was.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, you loved Slave Play, so we all have our things.

[Rob W. Schneider]

You did not.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I think it's a bad play.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Really?

[Matt Koplik]

How come if people want to learn more about that, they can listen to the Slave Play episode with Marcus Scott? We've gone on too many tangents on this episode for me to go into that. I think it has a lot of really interesting things to say. Say. I think there was some wonderful dialogue in it, and I like the conversations that it starts. I think, as a play, it is poor.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Okay, I got. That's fine. That's totally fine. Yeah. I mean, it's like that with all those plays, you know, people go in and they want to, you know, treat it like, you know, there's reverence about it. And that doesn't always work.

[Matt Koplik]

Doesn't always work. It's why I have been so, like, gung ho about with Sondheim stuff. I'm like, guys, yes, it's wonderful work, but, like, get your hands dirty with it. Make it exciting. Come on.

[Rob W. Schneider]

He would be the first to tell you to do that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Rob W. Schneider]

You know, get your hands bloody.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, Stevie.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I. You know, I'm trying to think of, like, the last time, like, a show of his felt like very different and very dangerous.

[Matt Koplik]

Of Sondheim or Alby Sondheim. The last time, I think he had a show on Broadway where I were. Collectively, we all went, this is alive and this is fresh and this is dangerous. Was the 2004 revival of Assassins.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Ah, yeah. Okay. Good answer. Good answer.

[Matt Koplik]

There have been productions since then that people have enjoyed. There has been a lot of debate about the success of them. The follies revival in 2011. I know that I enjoyed it. I had issues with it. And there's been a lot of debate from many people about, like, the flaws and the pros about it. I've been very vocal of how underwhelming I found the most recent Sweeney Todd. Actually, you know what? The. The pie shop Sweeney Todd. I thought that was pretty fantastic.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, is that with Norm Lewis?

[Matt Koplik]

I didn't see him, but he did do it. Yeah.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Okay. Yeah, I did not see that. I know that ran for a while. That stuff is fun. Like, go ahead, spice it up. It's what he would have wanted. Wanted.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. It's still the best Sweeney I've seen with the Goat. Just wrapping things up here. It did win. It did win. The Tony Warford best was a Pulitzer finalist. Oh. So as I. I think I said who it was up against. It was up against Metamorphosis, Top Dog, Underdog, and Fortune's Fool. I believe for the other ones. Yes, those were the other nominees. It won Play. It lost the Pulitzer to Anna in the Tropics. It ran for 309 performances. I don't think it. It made its money back. It hasn't been back on Broadway yet. The new rumor is that it's going to be Sarah Paulson and Pedro Pascal, which.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, great.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, we'll see how that goes. The Sarah Paulson, Steve Carell rumor circulated last year. Nothing's been announced. It might be scheduling. It might be lack of a theater. Now I'm hearing Pedro Pascal. There was the 2004 premiere with Jonathan Pryce. There was revival in 2017 with Damian Lewis and Sophie Okonedo. That's all we really have. With the Goat. I mean, I don't think it gets done very often.

[Rob W. Schneider]

No, I mean, it was one of those things where, like, it was like the play du jour, and then it just sort of disappeared. Because I think that it's a very hard sell. Unlike something like who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? You can sell it. There's a way of selling it. Even three tall women, there's a way. I think you can sell it. But this was. I just. I'm like, what regional theater wants to pick this? You know, if the sophisticated, quote unquote, New York audiences are sitting there going, what the fuck is this? You know, how are they going to react in San Diego or Dallas or Seattle?

[Matt Koplik]

I think with Virginia Woolf, it helps that a. The original production was such a success and made such a cultural impact and then had a movie version that did ten times as well. And so that has helped it be revived constantly on Broadway and become this sort of well known title. So people get over the shock value because now they just know the title. Three Tall Women and Delicate Balance have the Pulitzers name, so that helps them sell it. And I also think that Lincoln center revival of Delicate Balance went a long way to bring that show back to the public consciousness and make it sellable. I think what it will take with the Goat is it will take a Sarah Paulson and Steve Carell or Pedro Pascal revival and have it be relative. It has. It doesn't have to be great. It has to be relatively good. And it will get it and it will get back in the regional circuit.

[Rob W. Schneider]

You know, Reed, I love that. I love that. I couldn't agree more.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, that's all it takes because we're never getting a movie out of it, so we might as well get a high profile Broadway revival.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Absolutely. I. And I think nowadays theaters across the country, it's 20 years later. I think they would be a little bit more inclined to take a chance on something like this.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, especially with news traveling the way it does via social media. If. If you had two big names like Sarah Paulson and Steve Carell in the Tony winning play the Goat, what's it about? Well, Steve Carell, a goat. Oh, my God. Like it's. That just goes all over the place and it becomes a conversation like it did the first time for the better part of a year. And then once it closes, regional theaters will be like, hey, come see the play that was just on Broadway where Steve Carell fucked a goat. We don't have Steve Carell, but we got the Goat.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I would love to see him do it. I think that's just great casting. Pedro Pascal is also great casting.

[Matt Koplik]

It's great casting on all the parts. Sarah Paulson is interesting for me. I feel like she's halfway between Mercedes Rule and Sally Field.

[Rob W. Schneider]

That's good. Split the difference.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Is there anyone else? I was gonna ask you who you would want.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, my God. I have to think for a second. Oh, yeah, I know who I would want. I think they're on the older side, but I would love to have seen them do it. Is Nathan Lane and Laurie Metcalfe.

[Matt Koplik]

Ah, that'd be fun. That would be fun. I. Hmm.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Or you know what? Make it real sophisticated. It's Denzel Washington, Viola Day.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, that's a. That's a good one too. I don't know if I buy Denzel in it. Although after the performance he gave in OTHELLO Maybe. Because the thing is that they. They're supposed to be 50. You know who actually I would love to see play Stevie, and she is too old for it now. Jamie Lee Curtis.

[Rob W. Schneider]

That's actually a great idea.

[Matt Koplik]

I think she would actually kind of kill it.

[Rob W. Schneider]

That's a great idea. Do you think we're ever going to get to the point with, like, AI where like, we can make a version of that and it is gonna be her? Do you know what I mean? Like, give me her younger. Doing the goat.

[Matt Koplik]

Probably. I don't want it. I would rather my imagination run wild because my imagination is a great place to be.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I've heard that. I've heard that. Yeah. That sounds great.

[Matt Koplik]

You're a frequent player in there, Rob.

[Rob W. Schneider]

What, in your mind?

[Matt Koplik]

In my mind, yeah.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Thinking about how much you dislike me.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. You're Sylvia and I'm Stevie, baby. I'm just drenched in your blood.

[Rob W. Schneider]

That is disgusting. Why am I the goat?

[Matt Koplik]

Would you like to kill me instead? You can.

[Rob W. Schneider]

No, I don't want to kill you. You're a nice guy. You're a nice guy. No, but I will say, like, I. I don't. I don't act anymore. But if somebody was like, hey, do you want to play the. The Bill Pullman roll? I would be like, yep, absolutely. Such a good part. Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't really act anymore. But if people wanted me to play Stevie, I would.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Okay, we're gonna. You know what? Let's do this. Let us. Let's get two other friends. Let's do a reading of the play Oz. One of your. What are they called? Substacks. Is that right? Did I say it right? A substack.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, substack is correct.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Substack to me, feels like a whole bunch of, like, hoagies, like in a pyramid is kind of what I'm imagining.

[Matt Koplik]

You're not entirely wrong.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Is it really? I love, but I mean, thank you for having me on to, like, talk about this play. It just. It means so much to me. It was a really life changing experience.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm so glad you were able to come on and do this for us because you're a very busy man.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, please.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so, Rob, first of all, tell the listeners where they can find you if you want them to find you.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I'm at 135th and Broadway and come say hi. I get lonely. No, I am on Instagram @RobWschneider, not to be confused with conservative comedian Rob Schneider.

[Matt Koplik]

One of them is relevant. The other one is a Not the.

[Rob W. Schneider]

One of them is relevant, the other one is me. And then you said I could do it, so I'm gonna do it. I just wrote a book, and it's called Queer Musicals, and it is now available for purchase on Amazon, Kindle, Drama Bookshop, Strand. Support your local bookstore. And I in a really good position, which is the book is sold out. So order, and hopefully it'll get to you soon. And if you want, I'll be more than happy to come to your house and sign it for you and do a monologue from the goat.

[Matt Koplik]

Try to stop him from signing it, please. It's.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Can I have my book back? It's not even your book. What are you signing?

[Matt Koplik]

It's. There's that line in Notting Hill where Julia Roberts is and Hugh Grant. Heather, meet cute in the bookshop. And she's like, oh, this. This one signed by the author. He's like, yeah. Couldn't get him to stop. In fact, if you can find a copy that's not signed by him, it's worth a fortune.

[Rob W. Schneider]

It's funny.

[Matt Koplik]

That's how I feel about Rob Schneider. With Queer Musicals. You can find one that's not signed by Rob. It's worth a thousand dollars.

[Rob W. Schneider]

You gotta hustle. You know what? It's like. You have to hustle.

[Matt Koplik]

Of course I do. I'm very excited for you. I'm so. Guys, this book is so sold out, I can't even get it. I'm. I'm. I'm looking around, trying to get it. I. I went to three different locations. I went to the Strand, I went to the Drama Bookshop, I even went on Amazon all sold out. And I. I went to Amazon as a last resort, and they were sold out. So I told Drama Bookshop, you let me know when you get a new order. And then they said, well, he's gonna be doing an event here. And I said, gross. Well, why.

[Rob W. Schneider]

All right, make sure there are no kids around. Or goats. It'll be a problem. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Are you aware of what he's done?

[Rob W. Schneider]

March 5th?

[Matt Koplik]

March 5th is. Is. This is the Drama Bookshop event?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. That's my birthday. You know what?

[Rob W. Schneider]

I'll ask them if they're supposed to be a moderator. If there's a moderator, would you want to moderate?

[Matt Koplik]

Of course. Try and stop me from talking to you.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I'm sorry. You're glutton for punishment.

[Matt Koplik]

Guys, all the time I text Rob and I'm like, when are we hanging out again? And he's like, why would you do that? And I said, because I like you, you idiot.

[Rob W. Schneider]

And I. That's very sweet.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I. We've. We've talked about this and we have to wrap things up. But, like, I don't know anyone else in my life who I maybe other than Josh, who I met and became so close with so fast. And now I look back and I go, well, we've known each other for 25 years and. No, we've known each other for 22.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Two years. But it's been a great two years. It's been a fantastic two years.

[Matt Koplik]

We've got another three to go, if Jamie and Kathy are any indication. And you wrote a book.

[Rob W. Schneider]

We're gonna be fine. It's you and you and nothing but you. It's gonna be great. No, you're gonna. You'll be the Jamie in this situation with the podcast. You'll become real successful.

[Matt Koplik]

I become. I already am. I. God, no.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Oh, I'm so sorry. Yes. I'm so sorry. You have a secretary now. An assistant. What is.

[Matt Koplik]

I've got a producer. I've got a producing team. Friends.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Let me tell you something. What's her name? She's very lovely. Sarah.

[Matt Koplik]

Sarah.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Sarah's very lovely friends. Matt and I have been friends for a very, very long time. We text each other the filthiest, most horrible things, and then I get an email from Sarah. Is that her name again? Sarah? Being like, hello, Robert, we are cordially inviting you to the Broadway. Broadway. I'm like, what the fuck? Cordially inviting me? What the fuck is this? I thought it was spider. Bam. I thought it was going to be like the Prince of Nigeria asking me for money. I was like, what is this? I'm like, he's got an assistant. He's got a fucking assistant.

[Matt Koplik]

No, she's my producer.

[Rob W. Schneider]

She's got a producer.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, I've got. I've actually. I have three producers. She's the one that does all the. All the contacting, though.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I'm sitting here busting my ass and you got an. What the hell is wrong with me?

[Matt Koplik]

Stop calling her an assistant. That's sexist. She is my producer.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I'm sorry. Your producer? I apologize, Sarah. I apologize. Juan, I'm sorry. You're working for Matt. And two, I'm just sorry in general for the mistitling.

[Matt Koplik]

We work for each other, she and I.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Do you really? Is she in charge of merch?

[Matt Koplik]

We actually. So next week, we're having. Next week, from. When we record this, we're having a conversation about merch. Because right now all of the work has gone into the rebranding of the logo, into scheduling the talent such as you, and launching episodes and, and having the substack and all that, all that good stuff. And now we have to have a conversation about merch, because I think we're gonna. We can't sell it at the show. It's not enough time. But we may be able to soft launch the merch at the show at the probably breakdown of Cabaret.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

What?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Do you know what it's gonna be yet, or you can't tell?

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, there's gonna be, I think, hats and T shirts and mugs. I think that's going to be. And maybe magnets.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Okay, great. Well, I can't wait to see the show. And once again, thank you always so much for having me on. You know how much I love you and it's always a pleasure to see your smiling face. And I see it tomorrow too, right?

[Matt Koplik]

Yay. I'm very excited. I get to see you three times over the course of seven days. I'm very lucky.

[Rob W. Schneider]

That's three times too many for you. I'm very sorry, Matt.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, we're gonna. Okay. I, I. For a while I was like, we're not gonna edit anything out. We're definitely editing out like 20 minutes from this, but it's fine. Guys, thank you so much for listening. If you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, give us a nice 5 star rating or review. You guys have been very good to us lately. I do know that the Discord link can get funky sometimes, so just reach out to me on Instagram if you are having trouble joining the Discord.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You know that we close out every episode with a Broadway diva and Mercedes Ruhl doesn't sing, so you can't pick her. Who do you want to close us out with today?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Can it be from a movie?

[Matt Koplik]

Is it a movie? Yeah, sure.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Okay, well, if you can't get Mercedes Rue, I'm a fan of Stocker Channing. Do we have her doing anything from.

[Matt Koplik]

Greece that's also very readily available? We absolutely can do.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Okay, I want her doing something from Greece.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, you don't want her like three lines from First Wives Club?

[Rob W. Schneider]

Uh, no. Oh, God, what a cameo. Or if you got a bootleg of her going in for the rink, that would be swell.

[Matt Koplik]

You know what? That's interesting. I wonder if there is semi decent audio of her in the rink.

[Rob W. Schneider]

I, I know I have it. I've Just never listened to it. You do, you know, have you ever had Casey Graham on your podcast? You. You would love him. Casey was, like, a resident director on Broadway for a number of years. He now works at Roundabout. He's Scott Ellis's associate at Roundabout. He does the funniest, most accurate Stalker Channing impression I ever heard in my life. It is. It is so good. It is so good.

[Matt Koplik]

That's because she's someone where it's like, I don't think that she's easy to mimic, but she absolutely has a way.

[Rob W. Schneider]

About her that is a man mannerism.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Like, she's distinct, but I feel like she's not easily imitatable. Does that make sense?

[Rob W. Schneider]

No, he does it. And he does. More specifically, the episode in the West Wing when she finds out Jed is running for reelection and he's lied to her, and it's. It's. It's just magnetic. Wait, is Alison Janney too old to play Stevie?

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, technically speaking, yes, but I would still see her do the fuck out of that. Like, 50 is so much younger. Younger now than it used to be.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Please keep telling me that in eight years.

[Matt Koplik]

I will. I will.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

All right, so we're gonna do Stalker Channing. That's what we're gonna do.

[Rob W. Schneider]

Yeah, that's it. Take me out on Stalker Channing.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you so much, Stalker. Take it away, baby. Bye. Wait around for Mr. A.R. take cold showers every day and throw my life away On a dream that won't come true.