Deep Dive: WHO'S AFRAID OF VIRGINIA WOOLF? (w/ Kevin Zak)

Summary

Broadway Breakdown — Deep Dive: WHO'S AFRAID OF VIRGINIA WOOLF? (w/ Kevin Zak)

Date: October 9, 2025
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Kevin Zak

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Overview

In this lively, unapologetically frank episode, Matt Koplik welcomes actor, writer, and director Kevin Zak to unpack Edward Albee’s 1962 masterwork Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf? The pair dissect why the play endures as a theatrical staple, break down its queer sensibility, recount memorable productions, and highlight Albee’s distinctive brand of verbal pyrotechnics. Their conversation is rich with theatre lore, pop culture tangents, and plenty of sharp, referential humor true to both host and guest.

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Main Themes & Episode Structure

• Introduction to Edward Albee's play and its deep cultural influence
• The camp and queerness of George & Martha
• Memorable productions and performances
• Why the play is so enduring (character, dialogue, theatrical legacy)
• In-depth text and character analysis
• The play’s complex links to queer history and Broadway culture
• The legacy of the original production, movie adaptation, and notable revivals

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Play’s Mystique & "Sitcom with Barbed Wire" (00:37–02:06)

• Matt jokes, "It really is just a sitcom with barbed wire attached," setting the tone for the blend of humor and pain that defines both the play and the discussion.
• Kevin marvels at the many Broadway revivals and its lone, iconic film adaptation:
  “I can’t believe it hasn’t been made into another film since. Which is wild to me.” (01:49)

2. Recasting Martha: Fan Favorites and Revival Memories (02:18–04:45)

• Kevin recalls seeing the ill-fated Laurie Metcalf/Rupert Everett revival (canceled due to the COVID outbreak). He dubs Metcalf “brilliant and scary and of course hilarious and she was very sexy” (03:57), praising her unique physicality — and her hip pads.
• They riff on dream casting future productions: Cate Blanchett, Laurie Metcalf, even “Eugene Levy and Catherine O’Hara.”

3. First Encounters with Virginia Woolf (04:59–06:54, 12:51–15:11)

• Kevin’s introduction: Watching the movie as a teen with his brother. The moment that hooked him? Elizabeth Taylor with the glass: “clink, clink, clink, clink” (05:30).
• Matt’s version: Shown the film by his dad at 13 and seeing Kathleen Turner/Bill Irwin’s Broadway revival at 15. “One of my proudest moments was meeting [Bill Irwin]… I just impressed Bill Irwin.” (14:27–14:42)

4. The Humor & Camp Appeal (07:51–11:15)

• The hosts connect the play’s biting wit to classic comedy. Kevin’s own shows (e.g., Ginger Twinsies) draw from “Naked Gun, Airplane type vibe” (08:32).
• The play’s culture of reference becomes a "love language" for the gay community:
  “Our love language and our conversation starters are references. Just quoting anything all the time. And that is the very beginning of Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf?” – Matt (09:12)

5. Character Insights: George & Martha as a (Queer) Couple? (09:46–12:44)

• Kevin cites rumored inspiration from a gay couple Albee knew, “which totally tracks… when they start playing Get the Guests.”
• Both highlight how the couple battles not just each other, but for control, identity, and self-awareness, perhaps echoing gay subcultures of the era.

6. Play Structure: More Bits Than Story (10:54–11:15)

• Matt: “This isn’t a play that’s heavy on story. It’s heavy on bits and moments... just constant anecdotes. And everyone’s miserable all the time.” (10:54)

7. Casting & Performance Analysis (22:22–27:47)

• Analysis of iconic Marthas: Elizabeth Taylor, Kathleen Turner, Amy Morton, Laurie Metcalf.
• Kevin: “She’s kind of, in a way, like a human cigar... there has to be a deepness to her body... Like she’s that inch of whiskey in a glass.” (24:09)
• Martha’s sexuality as both shield and weapon, with specific discussion of the play’s pivotal seduction scene.

8. Comedy as Defense, Self-Awareness as Weapon (29:40–32:34)

• Martha uses humor to shield pain—“she was using humor as a defense mechanism for how she felt a little less sexy because of the fact [Nick couldn’t perform]... like so many gay men do.”
• Matt: “Self-awareness really is just self-defense. I am going to find all my weaknesses and blow them up... Because if I do that, no one else can.” (31:21)

9. The "Funeral Comedy" Sweet Spot (32:34–37:47)

• Kevin coins the term: “Funeral comedies are my absolute favorite. Laughter that comes from just true sadness...”
• The hosts root the play’s enduring appeal in its relentless mix of humor and harrowing drama—the “tennis match with grenades.”

10. Character Deep Dive: Nick & Honey’s Hidden Depths (38:28–53:38)

• Nick: The "himbo" or the "troubled"—varies by production; Russell Tovey “played the dumbest version of Nick that I had seen.”
• Honey: In the original script, a cut scene implies she had an abortion (not just a “hysterical pregnancy”). Matt: “It makes her more interesting to me. It gives her a little bit more edge over and more control over her life.” (46:48–48:08)
• Honey as surprisingly intuitive and aware, especially when it comes to the play’s final revelations.

11. Casting, Productions, & Martha’s Physicality (55:28–58:21)

• Unique costuming choices (Metcalf’s hip pads), the importance of Martha’s earthy sensuality, and how various productions handled casting, even mentioning a Mike Nichols/Elaine May production.

12. Revivals: Dreamcasting, Comedians as Martha, and Humorous Roots (58:21–61:22)

• Lesbian icons, comic actresses, and the comic heart of Martha; Betty White, Catherine O'Hara, and Melissa McCarthy all get hypothetical castings.
• Kevin: “The funnier they are, the better they can break your heart.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On camp and references:
  “Our love language... are references. Just quoting anything all the time. And that is the very beginning of Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf?” — Matt (09:12)

• On Martha’s seduction and pain:
  “Even though Martha didn’t fully want to sleep with Nick, it hurts her pride that this hot young guy can’t perform with her.” — Matt (27:47)

• On the queerness of the play’s humor:
  “I feel like I remember reading somewhere... about Albee writing Martha and George like they're basically a gay couple...” — Kevin (09:46)

• On the play's wedding of humor and pain:
  "Funeral comedies, tragedy over time that's turned into laughter is my favorite brand." — Kevin (36:13)

• On the show’s enduring appeal:
  “It should be constantly playing somewhere... God, I wish I could go see it live tonight somewhere.” — Kevin (52:11)

• Matt on self-defense in comedy:
  “Self-awareness really is just self-defense. I am going to find all of my weaknesses and blow them up to maximum proportions and make light of it, because if I do that, no one else can.” (31:21)

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Legacy & Impact ([65:25] onward)

Matt pivots for an in-depth solo segment chronicling the historical impact and legacy:

The Original Broadway Run

• Opened in 1962, won the 1963 Tony Award for Best Play (and four others).
• Famously denied the Pulitzer Prize due to its "language, theme, and lack of moral uplift," prompting resignations from the drama jury and a change in Pulitzer rules.

Title Origin

• Inspired by graffiti: “Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf?” seen in a bar; the source remains debated.

The 1966 Film Adaptation

• Directed by Mike Nichols (his film debut), starring Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton.
• Broke ground in Hollywood: challenged the restrictive Hays Code, paved the way for the MPAA rating system.
• Huge critical and box office success: 13 Oscar nominations, 5 wins, including Best Actress (Taylor) and Best Supporting Actress (Dennis).

Subsequent Revivals

• 1976: Colleen Dewhurst & Ben Gazzara (directed by Albee).
• 2005: Kathleen Turner & Bill Irwin.
• 2012–13: Amy Morton & Tracy Letts (Steppenwolf).
• 2020: Laurie Metcalf & Rupert Everett (closed early due to COVID).
• Notable others: Mercedes Ruehl/Patrick Stewart, Mike Nichols/Elaine May, Imelda Staunton in London, Calista Flockhart/Zachary Quinto in LA.

Lasting Influence

• Inspired countless imitators: every “Secret at Dinner” play, like August: Osage County and The Humans.
• Pop culture references in The Simpsons, Gilmore Girls, The Office (the “Dinner Party” episode explicitly cites the play’s influence), and more.
• Shaped the style of the “urban sophisticate drama”—dialogue as weapon, wit sharpened to a razor edge.

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Thematic & Cultural Analysis

• Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf? interweaves raw comedy and devastating drama, using humor as both deflector and weapon.
• The play’s subtext and structure resonate with queer culture—sharp-tongued, referential, and emotionally intense.
• Both George & Martha’s dynamic and Honey’s hidden depth speak to patterns of queerness, repression, and codependency.

Why Does It Endure?

• The play’s “tennis match with grenades” of dialogue.
• Characters who weaponize wit, humor, sexuality, and pain.
• Its camp sensibility, especially embraced by queer audiences.
• The way it captures “funeral comedy”—laughter through shared darkness.
• Its flexibility: each revival, with new cast energies, reveals new layers, keeping it fresh and riveting.

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Prompted Questions for Listeners

• What does Virginia Woolf say about love, partnership, and volatility?
• Can George and Martha survive the night? Can Nick and Honey?
• Why do some couples need conflict to feel alive?
• What makes the play canonically queer?
• Do you dreamcast new Marthas and Georges?

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Sitcom with Barbed Wire / Intro to Play: 00:37–02:06
• Memorable Marthas / Revival Stories: 02:58–04:45, 22:22–27:47
• First Encounters with VW: 04:59–06:54, 12:51–15:11
• Camp & Pop Culture Reference: 09:12, 32:34–37:47
• Queer Subtext & Glass Closet: 09:46–12:44, 18:21–22:22
• Character Deep Dives (Martha, George, Nick, Honey): 24:09–29:40 (Martha), 38:28–53:38 (Nick/Honey)
• Comedy as Self-Defense: 29:40–32:34
• Legacy & Broadway History: 65:25–99:52
• Impact on Pulitzer & Movies: 69:04–81:55
• Influence on Pop Culture: 81:55–94:30

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Final Thoughts

Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf? remains both a theatrical Everest and a queer camp touchstone thanks to its blend of wit, violence, and pathos. Matt and Kevin’s spirited conversation not only details the play’s artistry and legacy but also celebrates the community that keeps it alive—a community hungry for humor in the darkest places, references on the tip of the tongue, and, always, a new George and Martha to devour the stage.

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Notable Quote to Close:
“You can take a step back and be like, oh, my God, this is a second in time in this giant spinning ball of gas that is going to explode in 100 years and nothing actually mattered or meant anything beyond that second. So funeral comedies, tragedy over time that's turned into laughter is my favorite brand.” — Kevin Zak (36:13)

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For Further Engagement

• Broadway Breakdown Substack
• Resource links and discussion channels available via the podcast’s Discord and newsletter

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Next week: The Drowsy Chaperone with Eli Rolo.

Transcript

[Kevin Zach]

Who's afraid of the big bad wolf? The big bad wolf the big bad wolf who's afraid of the big bad wolf? TRA la la la la.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello all you theater lovers both out.

[Podcast Host]

And crowded on the DL and welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a po discussing the history und legacy of American theater's.

[Matt Koplik]

Most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all.

[Podcast Host]

The Broadway podcast hosts.

[Matt Koplik]

This series is called Matt's Picks, and.

[Podcast Host]

It'S covering shows that you submitted that.

[Matt Koplik]

I did not pick out of a.

[Podcast Host]

Bowl for Grab Bag, but I wanted to cover anyway. Our guest today, he's an actor, a.

[Matt Koplik]

Writer, a director, a Lucille Lortel nominee. He's worked on Death Becomes her and Waitress, he's working on the upcoming musical.

[Podcast Host]

Version of Running with Scissors, and he's.

[Matt Koplik]

The idiot brain behind Ginger Twinsies. Please welco to the podcast. Kevin. Zach.

[Podcast Host]

Hi, Kevin.

[Kevin Zach]

I want everyone to know he said director in quotes and I just cackled.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, I did do that in quotes, but if you've seen Ginger Twinsies, you know what I'm talking about. We also are on a bit of a delay on Riverside right now, so I feel like any joke one of us is going to make, there's going to be like a two second pause in between anyway.

[Kevin Zach]

You can add like an actual audience laughter in there. It could be like a sitcom.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I think that's exactly what I'm gonna do. Because honestly, with what we're talking about today, it really is just a sitcom with barbed wire attached. I would say, Kevin, what is it exactly that we're talking about today?

[Kevin Zach]

We're talking about Edward Elbey's who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? The epic play that has been revived many times on Broadway and turned into film. And I can't believe it hasn't been made into another film since. Which is wild to me.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, wild to me too. I wonder why that is. If it's just that the original is so iconic in culture that it would be sort of sacrilegious to. To remake it.

[Kevin Zach]

Yeah, but usually people are like, oh, that's sacrilegious. And they go ahead and do it anyways. I mean, it seems like the perfect Cate Blanchett Oscar B movie.

[Matt Koplik]

So I feel like that's both a compliment and a dig to her.

[Kevin Zach]

For sure. For sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Yeah, I feel you. I mean, not to go off on our tangents already, but, you know, every time there's like that psycho remake or the Charade remake, it just. It all blows up in everybody's face and it's very expensive. So with this one, it's like, I don't know who, other than Cate Blanchett with hip pads, who. Who else would you cast in a Martha remake?

[Kevin Zach]

Oh my. I mean, I don't want to launch into it too soon, but Laurie Metcalfe. And I'll tell you why. It's because I was lucky enough to see one of the three performances of that revival with her and Rupert Everett and Russell Tovey right before the shutdown. I was at the performance that got the headlines of like Usher diagnosed with COVID at preview of who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? And I was like, well, I'm dying. I'm patient zero now.

[Matt Koplik]

I was about to say, are you.

[Podcast Host]

Sure it wasn't you that gave the usher Covid?

[Kevin Zach]

I did kiss someone there, so I'm assuming it was Kathy the usher.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, that is, you know, you've met Kevin Zach. When you escort a patron to the receipt and they just respond by kissing you straight on the lips with full on tongue and you're like, oh, I've met Kevin Zak now. Yes.

[Kevin Zach]

I would choose Laurie Metcalfe because. And she was wearing hip pads for this revival and she was absolutely brilliant and scary and of course hilarious and she was very sexy. She moved in a way I had never seen her move on stage. And I try and see her, you know, you know, for a while and I think it's about to come back. Is that you know, once a year. Laurie Metcalfe, Joe Mantello play on Broadway. I'm always like first in line. I forgot what the next one is. I think it's, I think it's Rudin, though.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Oh, you said it now. You said, you said, you said the name. He comes back like Beetlejuice now. Yeah, it's. It's that little Bay Ridge play, whatever.

[Podcast Host]

The fuck that thing is called. I wish I, I was so excited for that revival.

[Matt Koplik]

I wish I had gotten to see it, but. But alas, they did not want me to see her in that role, so the world didn't. Yeah, homophobia at its finest. Anywho, Kevin, how did who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf enter your chat? How did it get into your life?

[Kevin Zach]

It came into my life through my brother Danny, and he was very into cinema and film growing up. He's my older brother and I remember watching it with him when I was in Hollywood High school. And he had recently graduated college and was back home for a second before he started his Job at the Washington Post. And he watched it, and I just kind of sat down with him and watched it, and I guess. So I was probably 15 or 16, and I sat down just in time. So this is like a bit into the movie to hear Elizabeth Taylor with her glass of alcohol saying, clink, clink, clink, clink, like, as if she was the ice. So that's where I. That's my first memory of it. And then I went back and watched the whole thing when I was in college and have just been obsessed with. I mean, from the moment the movie starts. And then, of course, the play. Like, one of the first lines is, what a dump. And that is, there's no better way to enter the stage. There's no way better way to enter a party. Like, what I love about that line is it is reference. A referential joke. It's a reference. And as you probably know, I love referential jokes. And so to have. Have a play kick off like that and then have a conversation about what is that line from? Because that's. That's all my dinner conversations. That's like. And actually, Drew Droege, who I love, he paid homage to it. And his bright colors and bold patterns play with a Steel Magnolias quote. I can't remember what it is now, but it's. It's a great thing, a great kickoff. And that's my earliest memory is the. Is the ice clinking. And then, of course, what a dump. That's the long answer for you, Matt.

[Matt Koplik]

You know that I like it long, so you know that I like it long from you, Kevin. Speaking of which, by the way, I will say Ginger Twinsies. I forgot I wanted to say this to you on. Mike has been added to the list of times I saw a show where there was a moment that I was the only person in the audience to have a reaction to it. And it was an audible reaction, and it ricocheted in the theater, which was. When this isn't really giving anything away. They're like 5,000 jokes a minute. But when Hallie and Nick are, quote, unquote, riding their horses, and the way that they're sort of positioned is, you know, there you position them in a very specific way. And then I don't remember if it's Hallie or Nick who comes off of the horse, but there is a very light sound effect that I am the only one. Either I'm the only one who. An audience who heard it, or I'm the only one who clocked it, because I let out a very Sharp. Haha. And everyone looked at me like I was insane.

[Kevin Zach]

Thank you. Yes. That is. That is one of my favorite moments. And it makes me laugh out loud. Sometimes the audience grabs onto it, sometimes they don't. I'm so thrilled you did. It's. Yeah, it's Russell as Annie getting off the horse, and there is a cork pop noise as she dismounts the horse as if she was inside it. Yes, that's exactly correct. Yeah. And that's like, you know, not to go on too much of a tangent, but I'm sure you gathered from Ginger Twinsies that a lot of my style of humor comes from that Jerry Zucker, Naked Gun, Airplane type vibe where there's always some sort of like, they throw something off screen and it hits a cat. You know what I mean?

[Matt Koplik]

1,000%.

[Kevin Zach]

That's. That's where a lot of my humor lives are, those kind of gags. So I'm so thrilled you caught that. Thank you for bringing that up. That makes me so happy.

[Matt Koplik]

Of course, of course. And you know that I'm. I'm always one for, like, any joke about butt sex. I. Because it's just, it's. I find butt sex so very funny, considering it's so integral to my life. So any joke about it on stage in any way, shape or form, even if it is with animals, I find it very, very funny. And yeah, so it got. It got me. It got me. But, you know, Kevin and I are very similar in the sense that we're both, you know, homosexuals, which means that our love language and our conversation starters are references. Just quoting anything all the time. And that is the very beginning of who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Is a very natural quip which then clocks in our lead character Martha's brain. Oh, that's from something. And trying to figure it out. And describing the plot, what she's eventually describing as the plot of the Bette Davis movie Beyond the Forest, which is apparently one of the worst Bette Davis movies, but has that line. Yeah, And I don't think that line is actually. I don't think that line was iconic from the movie when it came out. It became iconic because of this play.

[Kevin Zach]

Yeah. And because of the gays. It's always because of the gays. And I feel like I remember reading somewhere along the line about Edward Elbey writing Martha and George like they're basically a gay couple. That was an inspiration along the way. I don't know if that's something I made up, but I feel like I read that at some point where it's like there was inspiration behind it from like a gay couple he knew, which totally tracks to me, especially when they start playing get the Guests. I think that's hysterical.

[Matt Koplik]

So I'm going to do a quick. This is the AI overview of who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Let's see if this is at all accurate. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf is a play about a middle aged couple, George.

[Podcast Host]

And Martha, who engage in a night.

[Matt Koplik]

Of destructive verbal sparring and games where with a younger couple, Nick and Honey, after a party. The play explores themes of truth and delusion, marriage and the harsh realities of life, culminating in the couple confronting the emptiness of their invented son and ultimately finding a fragile reconciliation. That's pretty accurate, I would say.

[Kevin Zach]

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

This isn't a play that's heavy on story. It's heavy on like bits and moments. It's in a. In a lot of ways who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf Is just like. And just like that. There is no story. Just constant, constant anecdotes. Constant anecdotes. And everyone's miserable all the time.

[Kevin Zach]

Everyone's miserable. Everyone wants to sleep with each other. Well, everyone's aiming to sleep really at someone, not with them. Like have sex at them. Sex at them. I mean that, that's. I mean, so the first time I saw it was the Amy Morton, Tracy Letts Carrie Coon revival, which I think was 2013.

[Matt Koplik]

2012 to 2013.

[Kevin Zach]

Yeah, yeah. And that was the first time seeing it live. And I know that Amy Morton is a storied theater actress and she was, I think, one of the founders of Steppenwolf. If I'm wrong or right, I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

She's a primary member of them for sure.

[Kevin Zach]

Yeah. But of course I only knew her as the mom from rookie of the year at that point. So I was just like, that's. That. That was me in 2012 being like, oh my God, it's the mom from rookie of the year. I love that movie. And then I of course get to see her just tear apart the stage. And I remember there being. I forgot who designed the stage set, but there was a really. The staircase and it was really great. And it would. It went diagonally up towards stage right. And of course she's like crawling up. At one point I was like, oh my God, this is who I want to be. I want to be this drunk woman professor whose dad owns a university. That's what I want to be.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, you got half there so far, you know, you're halfway there.

[Kevin Zach]

Almost there, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

To go back to an earlier question you had for me, Kevin, who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Entered my chat, I want to say, when I was 13, I famously have a family that's like no New York theater family. They all enjoy going to theater all the time. My dad was always big on showing me older films and whatnot for my education and showed me the Elizabeth Taylor, Richard Burton movie, I want to say, when I was about 13. And I thought it was so incredible. And then I bought the play itself, which I still have with me to this day.

[Podcast Host]

See, right there.

[Matt Koplik]

I bought this. I bought this with my own money when I was 14 years old. And they announced that Kathleen Turner and Bill Irwin were going to do a revival of it in. It was coming to Broadway in 20. In 2005. They did an out of town tryout in Boston that fall. Fall, I'm pretty sure. And then they opened at the Longacre in March of 05. And I wanted to see it for my birthday. And so my grandfather took me, right, My grandfather took me for my 15th birthday to see who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf with Kathleen Turner and Bill Irwin. And because my grandfather was an entertainment lawyer, Bill Irwin was actually one of his clients. So I went backstage and met Bill Irwin afterwards.

[Kevin Zach]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

Fancy, fancy. And one of my, one of my proudest moments was meeting him. And Bill Irwin turned to my grandfather, he's like, Richard, why would you take your teenage grandson to this? Like, this isn't a show for teens, really. And my grandfather was like, oh, Matt requested this for his birthday. Like, this was he. I offered. I offered him La Cage with Bob Goulet. I offered him, you know, fucking Three Penny Opera with Alan Cumming. He wanted this. And Bill Irwin looked at me very impressed and I thought to myself, I just impressed Bill Irwin.

[Podcast Host]

But I saw that revival.

[Matt Koplik]

David Harbour of Stranger Things. Was Nick in that as well? I don't remember who the honey was, but I remember she was very good. And then I also saw the Amy Morton, Tracy Letts revival. I actually saw that twice because my dad came to town and wanted to see it. So we saw it again. And then I did not get to see Laurie Metcalfe, but I read all about it and I was very excited and I was bummed that I didn't get to. This is one of my top three favorite plays. This, this, Angels in America, Avi and How I Learned to Drive, which we will also be covering on this series.

[Kevin Zach]

So you know, I don't know how to drive. I've never seen it or read it. But now, on your recommendation, I must.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, how do you feel about trauma, Kevin?

[Kevin Zach]

Oh, my. Trauma is my favorite thing to make fun of. Is that what it does or it.

[Matt Koplik]

Doesn'T make fun of it? But it's.

[Podcast Host]

It's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's surprising how funny that play is considering, like, how devastating the subject matter is.

[Podcast Host]

Do you, like.

[Matt Koplik]

Do you know the premise of it at all?

[Kevin Zach]

Nothing. I know nothing about it.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, well, then, you know what? Why don't you hold off till we.

[Matt Koplik]

Do that episode on the podcast, and then you can listen and then you can text me and go pitter patter, pitter patter. I will say there are a few. There are certain moments in theater that, like, just stay with me forever for various reasons. You know, Halle dismounting the horse in Ginger Twinsies will stay with me forever.

[Kevin Zach]

And yay.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely, Nick. And the short shorts will stay with me forever. And you just putting into the lexicon that Dennis Quaid is a power bottom will stay in my memory forever.

[Kevin Zach]

So he came to the show.

[Matt Koplik]

I saw.

[Kevin Zach]

And we did not know he was coming. One of our producers is Elaine Hendricks, who played Meredith Blake in the film, and she reached out to everybody in the Parent Trap cast, and we've had a lot, like, she reached out to Dennis, not thinking he would even respond because they really haven't stayed in touch at all since they filmed. But he called her 20 minutes before the 6pm last Saturday and was like, I just bought a ticket to your show. And he showed up, and he. I wasn't there that night, but he apparently loved. It was, like, cackling. And I was like, oh, okay, that. That's fun. And then he met the cast, and apparently it was very nice and. And wild. And then he was gone. And then. Which I thought was. I mean, kind of. I. Apparently, he did the same thing for the Notebook. I forgot he was in the movie the Notebook, but he, like, went, who's he in the Notebook? Yeah, he's like, either James Marsden's dad or. Or Ryan Gosling's dad. He's some guy in an army uniform.

[Matt Koplik]

That'S like, okay, he's not Ryan Gosling's dad. Because I know for a fact that that's Sam Shepard. There are very few things in this world that I'm aware of, Kevin. And it's that Sam Shepard is Ryan Gosling's dad in the Notebook. This is. By the way, guys, this is Virginia Woolf right here. It's two gays doing this pop culture talk. And we will get back into original. But the thing I was gonna say was in addition to Dennis Quaid not being a power bottom, thanks to you, in How I Learned to Drive, there's a. It's not the final moment, but it's like in the last five minutes between Mary Louise Parker and David Morse. And it's, it's, it's them showing the inciting incident finally that like, causes really toxic relationship with her uncle. And the way that it's staged in Mary Louise Parker's face, I just was like, I'll never forget this as long as I live. This is burned into my DNA. Yeah, it was, it was a very harrowing moment.

[Podcast Host]

But, like, not in a way where.

[Matt Koplik]

You'Re like, oh, I'm traumatized. You're watching trauma, but you're not feeling traumatized. You're just feeling very, very compelled. Anyway, who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Speaking of these things. So Edward Albee was a weird man, as upon my research in terms of how he viewed his works. The thing about Virginia Woolf, heel claims I read like a few different interviews from over the years and maybe he changed his tune later, but throughout the 60s, 70s and 80s, because he was very much in the closet, I'm pretty sure till like the 80s or like a glass closet. Because there was an article in the 1960s and I don't remember all the details of it, but you can listen to the Boys in the Band episode with John was Scavage, guys, if you want to learn more about this article. But there was an article, I think it was in the Times that kind of pointed to Edward Albee, Tennessee Williams and William Inge about these playwrights who were most likely homosexual but refused to write about homosexuality. And it's. That article is what inspired Mark Crowley to write the Boys in the Band, which many people call like the gayer who's afraid of Virginia Woolf. And because even has even has a get the guests moment. And Albie hated Boys in the Band. He thought that it was crass and he thought that it had no. Nothing compelling about it artistically. And he always would deny that Virginia Woolf was about gay people. He was like, if it was about gay people, I would have written gay characters. And there was a time when Henry Fonda and Richard Burton wanted to do an all male Virginia Woolf that Alby shut down. And then I guess it really wasn't until like the 90s that he kind of more openly spoke about his personal life and the ties of the people he knew to Virginia Woolf because he claimed it was about a straight couple he knew. But it's very clear that so much of the language and the tone and the relationship has for that time, you know, homosexual connotations. Not like in terms of sexual heat, but just in terms of, as we were saying, like the, the verbiage and the love language. It's not something that you see a lot with like heteronormative couples.

[Kevin Zach]

No, not at all. I, I think. I didn't, I didn't. I didn't know that little history behind the boys in the Band. That's amazing. I only saw. I've never. I didn't see that revival, but I saw the Netflix adaptation. But say something for the first time.

[Matt Koplik]

I've never said. I was never about to say anything. I was letting you speak.

[Kevin Zach]

That's so sweet of you, Matt. No, I love that. And yes, like, I love what you just said about the glass closet that was. He was in. That's absolutely hysterical. And I would love to, love to see an all male version of this show that you mentioned that I'm sure many times over the years people have wanted that because I often just kind of daydream about who I'd like to see do George and Martha, you know, especially as I get older and actors I love, you know, age into those that, that bracket to Plato's characters. I'm like, there's one moment I was like, oh, my God, it'd be wild to see a Eugene Levy and Catherine o' Hara who's afraid of Virginia Woolf. What would that look like? Would that be two bananas or would that be like kind of spot on in a dark, twisted way? And I'm also thinking that I know Carrie Coon played Honey, but like, we're gonna get the Carrie Coon who's afraid of Virginia Woolf. I guarantee it. Oh, yeah, guarantee it. And I think actually the Laurie Metcalfe one with Rupert Everett was supposed to be Eddie Izzard before. Yeah. Which I think would have been fascinating as well have Eddie Izard to it.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so for you, listen, what I love about Martha and George is that they are. They both have very dominant characteristics that have to be addressed whenever you play them, while also finding ways leeway for new interpretations. The one about the Tracy Letts Amy Morton production that was really kind of fascinating for people. Wonderful as Amy Morton was, she was not as brazen a Martha as Elizabeth Taylor, as Kathleen Turner or as I assume UTA Hagen was. I've only listened to the recording of Ooda, for those of you who don't know, there is a record of the original Broadway cast recording that they recorded without audience, and it's all on YouTube. I think there's even one with Elaine Stritch because Elaine Stritch replaced as an alternate Martha. I think this was the first time there were alternates on Broadway because the show was three and a half hours long. It was so rigorous. They had a matinee cast. So there was all four actors who did the Wednesday and Saturday matinees, and then UDA and George Grizzard and all those folks did the other six performances. But my point being, Tracy Letts George was a little more dominant and a little more the focus of the production in a way that he hadn't been before. Usually George's arc is a little more meek and mild, and they call him spineless, and then he sort of grows as the play continues. But so what I wanted to ask you was, you know, when you think of George and Martha, what are characteristics that you think an actor has to be able to understand and take hold of when they. When they do these roles? So, like, if a Catherine o' Hara or Eugene Levy were going to do them, like, things that they would make sure they'd have to understand when they do it before they go off and do their own crazy thing.

[Kevin Zach]

I think with Martha, there has to be a sort of. She's kind of, in a way, like a human cigar. In a way, there has to me be some sort of lower register. I know that's more of a technical thing, but, like, for me, and I listened to the UTA Hagen Act 1 last night. So I was looking through. Your producer sent me all those links. I didn't know it was there. So thank you so much for that. I listened to Act 1 last night. It was electric. But even with that, you could just. Even just hearing UTA Hagen speak, like, I was sitting with my eyes closed. I felt like it was the 1940s. It was so much fun to just listen to something. But the way her voice is as a register to me is something I remember Laurie Metcalfe doing and Amy Morton doing is just. There has to be a deepness to her body. And I mean that vocally, I mean that gravitas, and I mean that sexually. I feel like she does lead with her hips. I feel like she does lead with. Like, I would. I would love to see Kathleen Turner because she's a base. And I feel like that. That kind of quality for Martha, to me, where it seems like she's almost got a drag queen element to her. And, and I mean that in the sense of like Lady Bunny more so than anyone, too, too modern. So that to me, a lowness to her delivery, her personality close to the earth. And, and like a whiskey glass. Like, like how you put an inch of whiskey in a glass. Like she's that inch of whiskey to me. Does that make sense or do I sound like an absolute art teacher psychopath?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, you always sound that way, but you do make sense to me. The, yeah, the, the thing about Martha, now I agree with you because I think what you're, what you're talking about and I agree is no, Martha is not to, you know, sound like fucking Joan K. Rowling here, but she is a woman in every sense of the term. She's, you know, she's, she has lived, she is aged. Like it's. Martha is not a young girl. They, and they make references to this in regards to her compared to Honey, who are not even sure if that's her actual name. That's just how she's referred to by Nick the entire time. But you know, Honey is mousy and slim, hipped and quiet and has like a piercing soprano Y voice. And Martha is an alto bass with, with curves and has, you know, lived a lot of life and is able to withstand a lot of liquor and, and knows what to do when she is in the dark with the man. But also Martha's like, maybe in a lot of ways Martha's best years are behind her, but she still knows what to do with the years that she has.

[Kevin Zach]

Used. She's used her hips, she's used her, her womanhood, I think before as a weapon, as a means to an end. Beyond being a brilliant woman and a naturally hilarious personality, Martha, she uses her womanhood as a weapon or as a shield, depending on what she wants in that particular moment. Whether she wants to flirt with Nick to make George angry or flirt with Nick to make Nick want her in a way. So it's like she knows the different angles of her womanhood and how to use them.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, and it's. When Martha seduces Nick, it's. I feel like there are many ways to go about it. Obviously the flirtation starts more to antagonize George as well as to kind of prove that she can. And then when she and George call an all out war, I don't think that Martha ever fully intends to sleep with Nick until that moment at the end of Act 2 when she and George go all out and she really tries to Sleep with Nick as a point of revenge. She's just so, like, she's at that point, it's so late, she's so drunk, and she's so blind with rage and. And vengeance that she does it not even thinking about all the ways it breaks what she and. And George have. And then when we come back to Act 3 after the fact and we learned that Nick couldn't get it up for her, and you know, the way that I watch Elizabeth Taylor do it and the way that I remember Kathleen Turner doing it, because with Amy Morton, it was sort of like she felt. I remember Amy Morton seems kind of unbothered by the fact that Nick couldn't have sex with her. It was sort of like I didn't really want to anyway. And so, like, whatever. You're just my. You're my punching bag because you're closest. I remember with Kathleen Turner, there was bitterness about it. And Elizabeth Taylor, you can see it too. Like Martha's. Even though Martha didn't fully want to sleep with Nick, it hurts her pride that this hot young guy can't perform with her. Because even if it is the fact that it's 3am and he has had enough alcohol to kill a rhinoceros, she's like, George could drink that much and he could still get it up for me. Like, am I. Yeah. Am I actually more unattractive at this age than I realize? Am I not as sexual to men as I want it to be? And so it makes her even more pointed towards Nick and making more jabs at his manhood because of that.

[Kevin Zach]

Yeah. And I think. I think going back and right before my Covid brain started, when Laurie and Russell Tovey came back from that, I remember a lot of humor Laurie played in that moment. It was like you could tell she was feeling all those things that you're talking about, but the way she delivered it was like. Well, couldn't get it up, you know, like, she was. She was. It got laughs, which was great. But you could tell that she was using humor as a defense mechanism for how she felt a little less sexy because of the fact, but played it off in a funny way. Like so many gay men do when that kind of thing happens is they use humor as a means of self defense or to remind everyone of their other qualities of like, oh, I'm funny and I can make this embarrassing, shameful thing funny before anyone else does. Does. Yeah, go ahead.

[Matt Koplik]

No, no, no.

[Podcast Host]

I was.

[Matt Koplik]

I was just saying.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

This is the problem with these, with this delay we have is that I'm just, I am simply saying, yeah, and agreeing with you. And then unfortunately it cuts you off when you're about to finish your beautiful, remarkable statements. No, I will say though, in regards to the, the gayness of it all, that I feel like straight culture maybe is finally glomming onto what with, you know, social media and acclimating towards gay humor this way is, as you said, the self defense mechanism of using humor and self deflection, which is, I think also a major George thing. And, and using your intelligence as a weapon because self awareness really is just self defense. It's the, I am going to find all of my weaknesses and I am going to blow them up to maximum proportions and make light of it. Because if I do that, no one else can. And you see that between George and Martha a lot and that's sort of their love language. And this is unclear if this is the first night this is happening or if it's just the night it's gone this far. But you see that they start touching on subjects too much or too deeply in a way that it stops being funny and just becomes painful and then turns to rage. And I, I, I mean this play is screamingly funny as well. So it makes sense to me that Laurie played it for laughs because I mean, the, you're certainly a flop on some departments is a line that gets a laugh. If you're a good enough actor, you will, you will bring the house down with it. And I remember Amy got laughs out of it and Kathleen Turner got laughs out of it. It's a funny line. And, and even though it does come from that place of hurt, but I think that is sort of where the best comedy does come from. Right. It comes from that place of pain that if you have enough intelligence, you can spin it into comedy.

[Kevin Zach]

Yeah. Oh my God. I mean, I, my, I forgot where I had it, but someone and I, I wanted to take it. It was either a diner somewhere downtown, they had a mug that said, I am the earth mother and you are all flops. And I was like, oh, I need that mug so badly. Or I need a tote like that. That should be a good tote bag, I think. You know how you said I, I what I personally get from it, and this could be completely wrong is I think this is the first night it's gone too far. I think this is, I think they've done it before for other people. I think they do it when they're bored, but I think this is the first night, you know, where it's different and it has gone too far. I mean it's, it's kind of, it's not this. There's a genre of plays that my friend Philip Terratulla and I like to call the Secret that is Revealed at Dinner, which is like August, Osage county, the humans, all those things that take place around a meal and then something crazy comes out and it's revealed and everything in this life is spiraling. Virginia Woolf isn't exactly like that because they're not around a dinner table, it's late at night, they're not family, the two different couples. But it sort of has that vibe of like we're all in a situation that's familiar to the audience, having new friends over for drinks and we're. Whether it's, you know, moving into a new neighborhood and the older couple on the street, like my parents when they first moved into the neighborhood I grew up in, they told me about a couple that had them like welcome to the the neighborhood and had them over for dinner and they gave him a tour of their house. And in their basement they kept kangaroo rats, which I have not seen since, but are rats that can jump. And they kept them in cages. And my mom almost ran home screaming. And it's just, you don't know sometimes what you. When you're meeting on a double date or whatever, there are those moments of you see the other couple that has maybe been together longer or has gone through something. You see those flashes of lightning in their eyes of like, oh, that what they just said means something so different to them than it, than what they're projecting towards us. And I think that's why when people go see this show, it is so relatable. Just like those secret that is revealed at dinner plays where everyone has had that holiday meal where some uncle is too drunk or someone has to say they're going through a divorce or anything like that. But it's that slice of life. We're in a very, very, very lived in house and people who have known each other for way too long. And then you bring in the. The young couple that's new to the environment and it's like crashing through an atmosphere into a new planet and hoping you can make peace with the aliens. It's my favorite style of play and you know, I love hard hitting comedies as you know, but I love like what you're saying, comedy from pain or what I like to call funeral comedies are my absolute favorite. Something that laughter that comes from just true sadness or true darkness to me is the deepest Kind of laugh where it's like, you can take a step back and be like, oh, my God, this is a second in time in this giant spinning ball of gas that is going to explode in 100 years and nothing actually mattered or meant anything beyond that second. So funeral comedies, tragedy over time that's turned into laughter is my favorite brand. And of course, also throwing grenades verbally at people and watching them catch it or explode in their hand, whatever it is. That's what I love about this show is it does feel like a tennis match with grenades, as if the ball was, like, just a bomb and seeing who can serve it better, who can pass it, who can set it up for their partner to score. But it's. It's. That's why, like, I. I think they should revive it every year. I. I, like, I could dream cast this show as the day is long. And I think people would always go and see the strictly limited engagement of, you know, whoever and whoever do it, because so it's also a release going to see this play. It's such a release to see other people step in shit. Other people get things wrong, other people try to make things right. And then you can leave being like, actually, you know what? We're doing great. You and I compared to Martha and George and compared to Nick and Honey. Oh, and the random thought that popped my head, I always forget because I grew up watching. Do you ever watch Just Shoot Me?

[Matt Koplik]

I have seen Episode. Yeah, I've seen episodes of it, but I don't know. It's super.

[Podcast Host]

Well.

[Kevin Zach]

Well, George Siegel was like the. The patriarch on that. On that sitcom. And so when I ended up seeing the movie of Virginia Woolf, it, like, was the first time I registered that, like, oh, my God, he did things before Just Shoot Me. He was in this epic movie back in the 60s, and it was like coming to like, oh, my God, why am I so stupid? Sure. Of course. He had a whole life before Just Shoot. He doesn't just exist in my Wendy Malik sitcom. Anyway, that's a random thought after my tirade of why I like seeing the show.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I think so. First of all, I agree with you. I think we should have a Virginia Woolf on Broadway. Like, we have Little Shop of Horrors off Broadway. Just, like, have a set production, and every four months, we have a new George and Martha. Every six months, a new Nick and Honey. And just, you know, let people come in, figure their shit out, do what they want to do. I. The. A couple. God, I have a couple different thoughts now that from what you Were saying first thing regarding the George and Martha relationship. And I do want to talk about George a little bit, as well as the Nick and Honey stuff, because there was something about Honey that I don't remember. I didn't remember for a long time. And it's because the scene that reveals this about her, I'll be cut in the 21st century. So the last two revivals, last three revivals and didn't have this scene. But it's in the movie and it's in the published script prior to the year 2000. So when I rewatched the movie and read the script, I was like, oh, I forgot about this. But we'll get to that in a second. But with George and Martha, I talked about this in our episode about Slave Play, and I referenced it a few times. Slave Play is a play that I don't like very much. I don't think it's particularly a good play, but I think that it's very fascinating, the stuff that it's tackling and why. To learn more about why I don't think it's objectively a good play, listen to the episode Marcus Scott and I talk about. Just like structurally, like the big twist they do in the first 30 minutes actually undermines the whole reason for it being a play. But that's neither here nor there. The last moment of the play between Wakina Kalakongo and Paul Alexander Nolan is a moment that I actually really love in the sense that it is these two people setting a match to the entire foundation of their relationship. And depending on the night, Wakina either choosing to abandon the relationship or build anew from the ashes of this foundation. Like they strike a match because it's on rotten ground and they need to kind of start again. And that is sort of how I feel about the end of the play with George and Martha. Of they've spent 22 years building this foundation off of rocky ground. The wood is rotted. And tonight's the night that all of a sudden George realizes that, you know, he's got to set a match to it if they're going to have any kind of future. And the two. The. The inciting incident for this is Martha telling Honey offstage about their son, imaginary son. We come to realize. And I think part of that is unclear what it is that motivated Martha so much. It might be that Nick and Honey being new to campus. Nick is a new professor at the college that George has been a teacher at forever. That's how George and Martha met. Being young, being smart, Being sort of held up as this trophy boy, you know, George definitely having some bitterness about that. And then Martha sort of seeing the promise of their youth and having some sort of pang about that compels her to tell Honey about their child. And she and George, we learn, had an agreement many years ago when we find out that they. They could not conceive. And so to deal with that pain, they come up with an imaginary son. And the rules are they kind of say yes and to each other about their son in private, but they just don't tell anyone else. And that's the one rule. And Martha broke the rule. And so George sets the match to it and announces as canon to the Lord that their son has now died. And that so therefore, they have no son anymore. And now they have to just have it be them. And you realize that the son is also this crutch for many things. Not just the child they couldn't have, but all the resentments they have towards each other. Martha fell for George. He was young, he was very smart, and he was able to rise up in the college for a time. We learned during wartime, when there were no men at the college, it was just George. And when all the men came back, George sort of retreated into the shadows. And Martha always sort of resented that, and George resented that about himself. And that resentment led to the sniping at each other and creating this new love language of mockery through wit and drinking to numb all of the pain. And so all of that kind of combusts with that. The thing about honey that I didn't remember. So we learned with honey. And so honey is a very fragile, sickly thing. She's always going off to the bathroom to vomit. And we're told that, a, she can't hold her liquor, which she can't, but also, just like, she just has a very weak constitution. She always gets headaches. Nick informs them, oh, it's not you guys. It's not just this, like, sometimes I'll come home and she's, like, on the floor vomiting. And he tells George in secret that they got married because they knew each other when they were very young. Her father was a religious guy who basically stole a lot of money from his devotees and left Honey with all of this money. So there was that. But also, Honey showed up to Nick one day, and she was like, I'm pregnant. Look how big I am. And he said, and then we got married. And then it went away. It was a hysterical pregnancy. And George then sort of uses that later on as. As A weapon against Nick when Martha reveals shit about George to them. But to anyone seeing a production in the 21st century, that's all the canon we have is that like Nick married Honey because she was pregnant. They get married, it turns out it was a fake pregnancy. And now. And Honey just like has a fragile constitution. Do you remember this scene with George and Honey when she comes back from the bathroom after they get the guests the revelation about what actually happened with Honey?

[Kevin Zach]

I don't. No, I don't. I haven't seen the movie in a long time.

[Matt Koplik]

So the movie's on YouTube. It was in your guest packet. No big deal. You can't find it in the published script now again, because Alby has made changes to the show over the decades, including cutting a lot of references to the son in the first half. He. In the, in the script that I have, there are a lot of moments where George is like, Martha don't say anything about the thing. And like stuff like that. And Albie has since trimmed a lot of that so it's a little less obvious to audiences that the kid's not real. But at the end of Act 2, because it's a three act play. And in the movie, after Martha has told Nick and Honey about George's novel, which was based on the true story that George killed his parents with the shotgun. George then does the get the guests and he, and he tells the room about the, the Nick and Honey marriage. And that sends Honey off to the bathroom. Martha and George call war. Martha goes upstairs with Nick and Honey comes back out from the bathroom because she, through some moment Martha or George like hit the chimes on the door a few times and Honey comes back out from the bathroom and it's just George and she says, oh, I heard chimes. And she's like delirious because she's both, she's both delirious from being sick and from being drunk. And it's late at night and she starts talking to George as well as to herself. And she's. We've, at first we think she's speaking nonsense. She was like, I was under a sheet and it was cold and I was scared. And George was like the are you talking about? And she then like collapses on the floor and she goes, no, no, no, I don't want children. I'm too afraid. I don't want any children. And we realize Honey did not have a hysterical pregnancy. She had an abortion. And. Unclear. Yes, because then, because Nick has says at one point when he's talking to George, he's like we. We still don't have kids. It keeps not happening. And it's unclear if Honey's gotten pregnant a few times and keeps terminating the pregnancy or if that first abortion was so botched that it has now permanently affected her capacity. So she's like, just prone to sickness now because of this abortion. Unclear.

[Podcast Host]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

And Alby wants it. Wanted it to be unclear. And he cut the scene, he said, because he wanted to keep the vagueness of Honey and Nick's background. I wish he had kept it.

[Kevin Zach]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It makes. It makes her more interesting to me.

[Kevin Zach]

Yeah. Oh, my God. That makes it. Yes. That makes it wild. It gives her actually a secret weapon in a way.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Kevin Zach]

Like, it gives her. It gives her a little bit more edge over and a little bit more control over her life if she has. Even though it's pain and it's. It's awful and it's trauma, if. If she is, like you said, you know, whether it's. She's actually been permanently, you know, medically injured or if every time she does conceive, she terminates the pregnancy secretly and just tells Nick it's not working. Nothing's coming. Catching on, you know, another miscarriage. I think that's an unbelievably and kind of scary, powerful tool to hold over the person you're married to, in a way. Whether. If it's that. If it's the latter, if it's the version where she. She just won't tell him that she does not want kids, but keeps him around for A, B, C and D reasons and. And blames it on just Nate. Her. Her bodily nature.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And then on top of that, I.

[Kevin Zach]

Wish they have that too.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And on top of that, it also shows because she's. She has a lot of childlike tendencies. And I imagine part of the reason why she, you know, she doesn't want children, she says, I'm afraid, like, she. She doesn't feel like she's mentally capable of doing it. The idea of being a mother overwhelms her so much.

[Kevin Zach]

But.

[Matt Koplik]

But then she's not thinking about long term because like, let's say, for example, that she is getting pregnant and constantly terminating the pregnancies. Like that is like.

[Kevin Zach]

Let's.

[Matt Koplik]

Let's just say that isn't what's happening. Right. Which is. It's possible because it's clear she and Nick are having sex like Nick. They're young, they are attracted to each other. And in the. It's. This is cut in the movie, this line. But it's in the play that when they, they met when they were young and they were friends, but, like, what kept them friends for so long was like, they basically experimented on each other with, with their sexuality. He said we would play doctor.

[Kevin Zach]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And that led to them just boning all the time. So, like, they clearly have an attraction to each other and they both have a sexual prowess to each other. And Honey comes from a very religious background and either doesn't know about the birds and the beads, birds and the bees. Refuses to look into contraception because, you know, the diaphragm was around by this point. I've seen Mona Lisa smile. I've watched Maggie Gyllenhaal. I know. I know all about that diaphragm. That was for you, Kevin.

[Kevin Zach]

Thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

You're welcome. But I just. All I. That movie is such garbage. And I love my curse and dunce, but, like, the one thing I remember about that movie is when Maggie Gyllenhaal introduces them all to the diaphragm and they're like, it's an abomination. And she goes, no, it's a girl's best friend. It's so stupid. It's so stupid. But to have to have your body go through that toll over and over again like you are. You are doing such damage to your body forever. And. And you just can't go through that over and over again.

[Podcast Host]

You're not meant to.

[Matt Koplik]

And if that is what she is doing, it is. It is power, it is control. But it's also showing her lack of. Of foresight that she's not thinking long term about her body. She's like, I'm just going to do it again. I'm going to do it again. I'm going to do it again. And it's like 10 years from now, she's going to be dying. Or the part that's. Yeah. And then the part that's controlled but very sad is like, she did this one thing, this one time, and it kind of permanently wrecked her and she can't tell anybody about it. And that is also, you know, very powerful and very sad. She also, like, because Nick is smart, they talk about how he's in the biology department. Martha thought at first it was math, but it's biology. And they make all these jokes about how he wants to deal with chromosomes and he wants to change things and make everyone, you know, look the same. And Nick is, you know, like a very book smart guy, but he's not very intuitive. And honey, we learn, actually is intuitive even in her Weakened drunken state. She realizes because George informs Honey that he's going to kill their son. And Honey being, you know, Honey, she takes it at face value at first. But when we get to Act 3 and George is doing his whole spiel about their son and makes and has Martha do her whole speech about the childhood and the birth and all that stuff, Honey puts it all together in a way that Nick doesn't. And yes, ans George on the story knowing that it's fake. And it, it takes Nick far too long to realize that this, that the kid isn't real. Like, like George says to Martha, oh, our son is dead. And Martha's like having this grieving process and George is, you know, making jokes about Nick's like, that's no way to speak to her. She just found her. Found out her son is dead and Honey's just sort of sitting there holding the bottle, knowing what's going on. And it's like another two pages for Nick is finally like, oh my God, I think I get it. And George is like, oh, do you now?

[Kevin Zach]

Yeah, yeah. God, I, it's the. Again, like you, you just hit the nail on the head in terms of like, it should be constantly playing somewhere. It, like even talking about it right now, I'm like, God, I wish I could go see it live tonight somewhere because it is that, that kind of play where depending on who you have in it is like. Because when you said that thing about Honey holding the bottle, like, my brain flashed back to that moment in the Laurie Metcalf production where I can see her like this with the bottle and it's like, oh my God. It's so. Each, each flavor of each production of it. It just makes me like, yeah, like I wish it was at the Longacre down the street right now. I'd buy a ticket after this conversation because it's that kind of show where I could go back to it and I, and I could pick up on more nuances and more and see how people play because Russell Tovey, who is, I think a fabulous actor, absolutely played probably the dumbest version of Nick that I had seen. He definitely lent himself to being because he's so good looking and they played up on his muscles and things like that. And like Laurie Metcalfe got his shirt off at one point, things like that. So it's. He definitely played the, the himbo version of, of Nick. I can't remember who was the Nick in the Amy Morton, Tracy Letts version.

[Matt Koplik]

I can't remember either. I remember he, his, his that Nick, I remember was a little more antagonistic than other Nicks. He like, he, he wasn't that he was a himbo and it wasn't that he was overly smart, but he was always very eager to join in on the games, even if he didn't really know what was going on. And David Harbour, I remember, was a very troubled Nick. He had a very dark energy about him. And George Siegel, when you watch the movie, it's just such a little shitter. He's. He's like J. Pierpont Finch in that way. Like, he's like, he's handsome, he's charismatic, but he's like golden boy, 60s in a way that you just want to punch him in the teeth.

[Kevin Zach]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I remember when you watch the movie again, the way that Honey is written by Edward Albee, because he's very descriptive in the stage directions of how he wants certain things played. And he never really writes honey in Act 1 as like very aware of anything. She's kind of a commentary on yuppie culture and the whole. He claims that the whole play was a commentary on modern relationships in modern society. He was looking at the world and going like, my God, we're all going to pot. And sort of lays it all out in the open. But in the movie, Sandy Dennis is very aware that Martha is hitting on Nick. And when she comments on like, yes, he has a very firm body and all these things. Like, you watch her face and she's like, oh, I know what this woman's doing. And when Martha changes outfits to get out of her frumpy dress and into like the form fitting.

[Kevin Zach]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Outfit. Sandy Dennis looks at her and she's like, oh, I can't compete with that. Like, she's like, she's got tits.

[Podcast Host]

I don't.

[Matt Koplik]

She knows that what Martha's doing and she's aware that she's helpless. And I. I like having some self awareness with Honey. She can't be the smartest one in the room. She. It's objectively impossible to do that. The play is not written to be that way. But you can find ways to make her aware of what's happening.

[Kevin Zach]

Yeah, for sure, for sure. It's funny you mentioned like Martha changing into that and that was the only to go back, even just the technical parts of the Laurie Metcalf revival when, when she did come in in a more sexual outfit is when you notice that Laurie Metcalf was wearing hip pads. And she's a twig of a woman. She's a. Yeah, I Was like. Because she had us. Like, she came in like with the sweater and things and she took it off and she's. And when she changed, it was like, she's wearing these very 60s pants, you know, very form fitting. But I was like, oh my God, she's. She's a drag queen from the waist down right now. Because they didn't do anything to the upstairs. So I was like. I was. At first I was like, is she wearing padding? Because she's gonna do a prat fall at some point in this version. Like, is she gonna go tumbling down the stairs at some point? Point? And that's why they have her like this. And then I was like, oh my God. No. It's just she's not built in the way that Martha's are usually built. And I wonder if there was ever a thought of her, of them not doing that, only to. To try and, and give a woman with a different kind of skeleton. You know, the angle of like, I still find myself sexy. And you're going to too. Even if I don't have the usual weapons a Martha does have on stage, I wonder if they're ever gonna cast against it in that fashion. But I also know, like, I feel like Edward Elbey's estate has a ton of rules about casting this show. I feel like I read somewhere at.

[Matt Koplik]

One point, yeah, it's a little less strict than the Arthur Miller estate used to be, but that's.

[Kevin Zach]

Maybe that's what I'm thinking of.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. No, but like, because Alby has allowed all black casts of Virginia Woolf in a way that the Miller estate used to not do that. And now they have. But for a while, the Miller State was like, no, absolutely not. There was a production in the 80s that was up in New Haven, I want to say, with Mike Nichols. Elaine May, Susie Kurtz and James Naughton, which.

[Kevin Zach]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. There's no video footage of it. There's just some photos. And I've read all about it in both the Mike Nichols and Elaine May biographies and apparently it was very good. The issue was that because of the cast, there became all this pressure that it was going to transfer to Broadway. And Elaine May was like, I don't want to go back on Broadway. Mike Nichols was like, I did this as a, as a lark. Meanwhile, Susie Curse and James Naughton are like, we're going to be famous. We're going to be famous. Like, this is my ticket. But from the photos I've seen, they didn't pad Elaine May in any way. She remained her twiggy self, but they teased her hair a bit and made it fuller and like. Because you have to have something to differentiate Martha from Honey other than just age.

[Kevin Zach]

Yes. Yeah. No, you're absolutely, absolutely right about that. It makes me think of like, again, like, going back and being like, oh, my God, if Mike Nichols and Elaine May, who else from that time would I have just killed to see in this show? And like, how, you know, how much can you put. Push the boundaries? Because in a way, I, I think Betty White would have been a fantastic Martha. Oh, yeah, I think, I think she had, like, because between what she did on Mary Tyler Moore, you know, with Sue Ann Nivens being such a, A cougar in a way, I, I think Betty White would have been a killer. Killer. And I, and I. Do you know if the. Did you say the Elaine Stritch is on YouTube somewhere? I need to listen to that.

[Matt Koplik]

There is, there is audio of Elaine Stritch on it. I don't know if it's in enough, if it's another official record of it or if it's just bootleg audio, but I'm pretty sure it's an official record they did with her because it's. Yeah, it's around. I think it's important to know that this play is so fun. We got to wrap things up soon with Kevin. But it is important to think about when doing Virginia Woolf I. How funny it is. We talked about this with Angels in America as well. Like, the drama only becomes compelling when you start with the funny. Humor disarms an audience. And as we were saying, this is a comedy like how I learned to Drive for Angels in America, where a lot of the humor comes from wit, which stems from pain. So what it is is that you start with the comedy, disarm the audience, the comedy that comes from pain, and then eventually you take away the comedy to just reveal the pain. And that's what makes it so incredible exciting. Especially because this is not a story driven show. You're not sort of sitting here going, what's going to happen next? You're more sort of going, what's this character going to say or do next? Or like, what? Yeah, yeah. What's the next facet of these people? Which it's interesting to think about how many people have done the show now with roots to comedy, you think of Elaine May and Mike Nichols. I mean, I don't know if people think of Kathleen Turner much as a comic actress, but she did do so many comedies in the 80s.

[Kevin Zach]

She did.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Romancing the Stone and Peggy sue got married. Who Framed Roger Rabbit, amazingly serial mom. Bill Irwin famously started as a clown and whatnot. And then Laurie Metcalfe, multi Emmy winning sitcom actress. And then. Yeah. And then recently, crazy enough, we had Calista Flockhart doing it in la, Right?

[Kevin Zach]

Oh my God. Yeah, I forgot about that. But I think that's why I think my mind goes. When I, when I dreamcast it, my mind goes to, to comedians to commit to notoriously comedic actors. I think, I think often, I'm sure you've talked about this and this is not a, I'm not breaking news here, but I often think they break my heart easier and better and faster than a dramatic actor does. Because like, did you ever see can you ever forgive me? The Melissa McCarthy movie?

[Podcast Host]

But of course.

[Kevin Zach]

But of course, I thought she was absolutely brilliant in that. And she has this moment at the end with I forgot the actor's name. But they're in Julius.

[Matt Koplik]

Richard E. Grant.

[Kevin Zach]

Yeah, they're in Julius. And he goes to leave and she's crying, but then she starts laughing and he's like, what's so funny? He's. And she's like, oh, nothing. I was just picturing you tripping thing as you exited and I was like that, that kind of laugh cry is, it's like, oh my God. I, I just think comedic, especially women, they. The, the funnies funnier they are, the, the better they can break your heart. And, and that's why I keep thinking of like, you know, Catherine o' Hara or Betty White or someone that would play Martha and just get, get the humor but also get that darkness and, and that heartbreak and that, that anger that I think existed, exists in these, these actresses as well. But like now I can't, I truly can't stop thinking of, of your. It should be running like little shop and we should be getting an announcement every four months.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, we're going to start it right here, right now. This is the idea that we have. We're going to make it happen.

[Podcast Host]

Listen, last time you were on this.

[Matt Koplik]

Podcast, both of us had maybe 1% influence in this industry, and now you have 15% influence and I have 4. So I'm assuming by the end of 2025 that'll increase a good amount and we can just make it happen.

[Kevin Zach]

You know, perfect. Let's let will produce it and we can be in charge of casting it too.

[Matt Koplik]

I love that. I know we got to wrap things up with you. We will take a quick break after this and I will get into the legacy of Virginia Woolf, as well as the drama surrounding its own. Almost winning the Pulitzer Prize, then getting denied the Pulitzer Prize, and then the Pulitzer Prize having to change its rules because of this, which is a fascinating thing. Crazy. Crazy. Also, this move, the movie version being one of the final nails in the coffin of the Hays Code and the beginning of the MPAA of movie rating systems. So thanks for people. Things for people to stick around for after this break. But Kevin, before you go, where can people find you if you want them to find you? And do you have anything in particular.

[Podcast Host]

You want to promote?

[Kevin Zach]

They can find me on Instagram if they want to see me posting about. Really only one thing right now, which is my off Broadway comedy called Ginger Twinsies. It's playing at the orpheum Theater through October 25th. It is a loving and twisted send up of the Parent Trap and about, I don't know, 76 other wonderful famous cultural film and television references as well, with an all star cast of true, true comedic geniuses. I would name them all. But go see it. Buy a ticket. It's 80 minutes of stupidity. And I think that's what we could afford to use. To have to see right now is something escapism. So go see that. And thank you, Matt, for having me back on your podcast.

[Podcast Host]

Of course, Kevin.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you for coming back on. We gotta have you back on for another one where you can come on for like three hours because between this and into the woods, I've only gotten you for like an hour and 20 each time. And that's not enough, Kevin, for me.

[Kevin Zach]

Yes, of course, of course.

[Matt Koplik]

You're very.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

You're very addictive that way. I need a larger fix.

[Kevin Zach]

You.

[Matt Koplik]

You're like the alcohol to my Martha. I just need more and more, baby.

[Kevin Zach]

Yeah, same. Thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

I want to be the ice to your Martha. I want to be between your teeth as you gnash on me. Clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink. All right, I'm gonna let you go, Kev.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you for stopping by.

[Matt Koplik]

And stick around, guys, for the break with the rest of the Legacy of Virginia Woolf.

[Kevin Zach]

Thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

How do you mean?

[Kevin Zach]

You're the top?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, you're an arrow caller.

[Kevin Zach]

You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the.

[Podcast Host]

And we are back. Welcome back, everyone. That was a wonderful episode with Kevin. Zach recorded it a little while ago, so forgive me if I sound or feel a little bit different in this section. A lot of life has happened since I recorded with Zach. Zach with Kevin. What am I saying? My brain is scrambled. But we are now in the section of this episode where we're talking a little bit more about the legacy of who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Both the play and the movie. It's really important that we sort of go into that with the movie because ultimately the play, you know, tectonic shifting as it was for theater, would not have the overwhelmingly large cultural impact that it has and remains to have if it weren't for the movie, which was incredibly successful. And the movie itself actually had a lot of major changes on Hollywood. So first things first, as we sort of talked about this in the episode who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf opened in 1963. Sorry, I got my notes here. Yeah, sorry, no, 1962. What am I saying? This is why, guys, this is why you need to sort of get yourself repaired. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf opened 1962 at the Billy Rose Theater, but it won the 1963 Tony Award. Alby's career up until Richard Newf opening was sort of underground. This was his biggest breakthrough. He had done short stories, he had done sort of one act plays. This was his real introduction to the big time. And it did, as I said, it won the 1963 Tony Award for Best Play. It was nominated for six Tony Awards and won five. It also won Best Actress for Uta Hagen, Best Actor for Arthur Hill. It won Best Director and Best Producers. There used to be a time when producers were nominated separately for the show itself. It was up against A Thousand Clowns, Herb Gardner's A Thousand Clowns, Brecht's Mother Courage and Her Children, and then Chin Chin, a play I know absolutely nothing about. Other plays that season were Enter Laughing, the Milk Train Doesn't Stop Here Anymore, and the big musicals of that season were Oliver Little Me, A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, and Stop the World. I Want to Get On. As we mentioned with Kevin, the show had a matinee cast, a full blown alternate cast that always performed at the matinees. And one of the major replacements in the original production of Virginia Woolf was Elaine Stritch as the replacement matinee, Martha. And I believe they got their own album as well. The show was a big financial success. It ran for almost 700 performances. 664 if we want to get, you know, specific here. Supposedly it only cost $42,000 to put up. Think about that. With inflation. 62 years ago, a four person, one set play could cost $42,000 to produce on Broadway. And it made back its money very quickly. Famously. And I brought this up in the first part, but famously, who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf was denied the Pulitzer Prize in 1963. What had happened was there is a drama jury. They are the ones who select the finalists and select the ultimate winner of the Pulitzer. And the drama jury had recommended who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf to win. Now, usually what happens and happened until this point was the drama jury selected their choice, and the board, the board.

[Matt Koplik]

The Pulitzer Prize board, would just sort.

[Podcast Host]

Of carry out the decision. But this time they overruled that decision, citing that who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf's language, its theme, and its lack of moral uplift went against what the Pulitzer Prize committee was awarding for art and journalism at that time. And so they just decided not to award any play that year for the Pulitzer Prize for drama, which has happened, I think, one or two other times in the Pulitzer's history. But this was a major one. They, the board deemed who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf not Pulitzer worthy. And this was a huge to do at the time that they, you know, denied it. They had to. The. The ruling for who's. For the Pulitzer in terms of what they deemed Pulitzer worthy. I need to check my source here, because there's an article that I want to quote in just a second. The terms for the drama awards specified the American play, preferably original in its source, and it's important to include preferable, because they did award the Pulitzer for drama to the Diary of Anne Frank, which was, technically speaking, an adaptation of the actual diary, preferably original in its source and dealing with American life, which shall represent in marked fashion the educational value and power of the stage. Now, when the board denied Virginia Woolf, two members of the jury resigned because they thought it was such an embarrassment for them. The two gentlemen who resigned were John Mason Brown and John W. Gassner. Both of them were critics. And in 1967, Edward Albee finally won a Pulitzer, this time for A Delicate Balance. And this is why I bring all this up, because I currently have open with me the New York Times article by Peter Kiss in 1967, when Alby won his Pulitzer for Delicate Balance. They go on about the prize. They go on about A Delicate Balance, about Walter Kerr's review for it. And then they go into 1963 when Virginia Woolf was denied, when it was rejected, actually. And they said that after the fallout of those two jury members resigning and sort of the backlash of Virginia Wolf being rejected, they did not Give Virginia Woolf the Pulitzer. After that, they didn't say, oops, sorry, we made a mistake. But they did change their terms and dropped the phrase, which shall represent in marked fashion the educational value and power of the stage. So no more educational value and power of the stage. It was just like, are you a good play and are you doing anything for the American theater? When Albie won the Pulitzer for Delicate Balance, unfortunately, John W. Gassner had passed earlier that year, but John Mason Brown was still alive. And the New York Times reached out to him and asked that after he had said that the advisory board had made a farce out of the Pulitzer Drama Award. They said, do you think that giving him the award now in 1967 is a vindication? Brown said, and I quote, well, not exactly a vindication. It's just that we were right then and we're right now. Edward Albee is a demonstrated career talent as opposed to the Fly by Night Boys. And I found Delicate Balance to be the most fascinating, fascinating new play, new American play of the season. And he's right, because Albie would go on to win three Pulitzers total, first for Delicate Balance, then for Seascape, and then for Three Tall Women. I believe he was a finalist for the play about the baby. Don't quote me about that. And he might have been a finalist for the Goat or who Is Sylvia? The Goat or who Is Sylvia? Which won the Tony. And we will be talking about that in a later episode. But, yeah, I'll be proved that he was not, you know, some sort of hack.

[Matt Koplik]

So that is sort of the fallout.

[Podcast Host]

And the impact of the play itself. Not only was it a major success, but it ended up causing the Pulitzer Prize for Drama Committee to have to rewrite their terms because not awarding it caused such a kerfuffle. Now, the movie version. So as I said, oh, there's also a little quick, fun fact about the title of the play about sort of where it came from. There's no confirmation about the exact location that this was supposedly happening. But Edward Albee had said that he was in the bathroom of a bar and saw that someone had graffitied the phrase who's afraid of Virginia Woolf? On the wall. And then after the play premiered, it was, you know, there was a lot of hoopla, and thus there was a lot of research done about that. And someone had found that there had actually been a New Yorker article that predated the play where the writer had mentioned going into the bathroom of a bar and seeing the phrase written in soap on the mirror. And so there's been some debate as to whether it was the same bar and that the writer of that article took artistic license and said, oh, it was soap on the mirror instead of just like graffiti on the wall. Or if Edward Albee actually had never been to that bar and just saw the article and really liked the phrase and had sort of Mandela affected the whole story. Because that article, I think, predated the play by like four or five years. So it's entirely possible in those five years that Alby read the article and then in that time thought to himself, oh, I was at that bar. But he just read the article. Unclear. It's never been fully confirmed. The 1966 movie adaptation produced by Warner Brothers, directed by Mike Nichols. This was Mike Nichols film debut as a director. He had been part of the comedy trio Nichols in May from the late 50s, early 60s. That blew up and sort of took the comedy scene by storm. This, the improv comedy that we know so well, the situation comedy, like sketch comedy that we know so well, really kind of crystallized with Nichols and May. They really kind of led the way for Second City and UCB and groups like that. And then when they broke up, Nichols went into directing for stage. He directed Barefoot in the park and the Odd Couple, the Apple Tree. And he goes to Hollywood to do Virginia Woolf. And part of the reason why he gets to do it is because he's very good friends with Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor, who are now married and like the most famous coup in the world, famously condemned by the Catholic Church. But two huge movie stars, their coupledom is the most iconic coupledom in all of the world. And Elizabeth Taylor is a recent Oscar winner for Butterfield 8, which she herself had admitted she didn't deserve. But because of that connection, he gets to make the movie. They Edward Albee wanted the movie to be made with Bette Davis and James Mason, who would have been amazing in the roles. And even though Alby likes the movie version as it is, he maintained to his death that Bette Davis and James Mason would have made it a much richer film. Plus, there would have been the great meta commentary of Betty Davis quoting herself in the movie. That actually probably would have been the first like, meta moment on film. But it gets made with Taylor, it gets made with Burton. Sandy Dennis, George Siegel. The Taylor Burton combo was enough to secure the financing. The studio felt secure that they could get some box office out of it. The big problem with the movie version was that even though the show caused such a sensation, audiences and critics alike were like, how is this going to get made into a movie? There's no way they can keep it intact. Because Hollywood, technically speaking, was still going by the Hays Code, which was a production code that offered guidelines in quotations, but basically entertainment law. Of all the things that movies had to adhere to by all the major movie studios, there was basically like a whole morality clause to it. And it couldn't show any nudity, sex, foul language. No one could take the Lord's name in vain, I guess. And. And anyone who did any wrongdoings had to be punished eventually. So adultery, murder, any kind of violence. There had to be some sort of comeuppance for this. We talked about this in the Streetcar Named Desire episode. And the struggle that Ilia Kazan and Tennessee Williams had getting that movie made because of the Hays Code. And for everything that they changed, those were concessions for all the things that they got to keep. And the Hays Code famously didn't want the assault on Blanche at the end. And they didn't want a lot of the sexuality in the movie. They had to. They. And they got to keep that. But they came at the price of Blanche's first husband killing himself because he was gay. And then they had to change what that.

[Matt Koplik]

The whole reason for that.

[Podcast Host]

And at the end of the movie, Stella leaves Stanley, whereas in the play she does not. But the Hays Code was kind of on its way out. The first major nail in the coffin was Some like it hot in 1959, which Billy Wilder kind of spat in the face of the Hays Code and said, no, no, we're making the movie we want. And they got no sign off by the mpaa, which was the organization that was enforcing the Hays Code. And they were not signed off by the Catholic League of Decency. Remember that title in just a second. And usually when a movie did not get a seal of approval from either of those organizations, it was a kiss of death for that movie at the box office because there was no rating system at the time. All movies had to be for everyone. Some Like It Hot, though, first of all, Streetcar Named Desire was a huge success. So that was, you know, pushing things in that direction. But Some Like It Hot was an even bigger success. And even though it wasn't nominated for Best Picture, they did get a nomination for actor, for screenplay, for director. And it was one of the biggest movies, box office wise, in the country and around the world. And that was a huge troubling point for the. For the MPAA. And as the 60s roll around, we get this influx of foreign films from England from France, from Italy, that have a lot more sexuality to them and a lot more foul language. And they're kind of shifting the tone of what movies can be in America. And you start to see that happening with, you know, Bonnie and Clyde and with the Graduate and, like, movies like Alfie and Tom Jones have such more sexuality to them and honesty and rawness to them and blow up as well. And not to mention the Fellini films that American directors and writers were getting influenced from that and sort of feeling a little more bold in pushing back against the mpaa. And with who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Again, language is sort of the big no no for it. But Ernest Lehman, the screenwriter, really kind of fought to include as much as the original dialogue as possible, and they mostly got their way. There were a couple of concessions they had to make, but it's like 90% the dialogue from the. From the stage show. And the MPAA originally warned Warner Brothers that they were going to give them hell for this. Ultimately, Jack Warner kind of gave them a $5,000 fee as a preliminary fine.

[Matt Koplik]

He was like, this is just, you.

[Podcast Host]

Know, you're gonna find me. Here's the money. On top of that, the mpa. Then, as Virginia Woolf was finishing production, the MPAA got a new leader, which was Jack Valenti. And he. His big passion project was implementing a rating system, which is what we have now. GPGPG13R, whatnot. The other major obstacle was the Catholic League of Decency, which threatened to label the movie with a condemned rating, which at that point was still considered like a kiss of death. And what Magnolia did was he arranged a screening with execs from Warner Brothers, the Catholic League of Decency, and his good friend Jacqueline Kennedy, the former first lady to jfk. And he sat her down right next to one of the heads of the Catholic League. And when the movie was over, she shot up and sang the movie's praises and said, oh, Jack would have absolutely adored this movie. And nobody said boo. There was no condemned label on it. The only concession the studio had to make was make a memo to theaters to write that no one under the age of 18 was allowed in the theater, but anyone 18 and older could go. And it paid off. The movie was a huge critical success. There were a couple of naysayers like the Village Voice, but most critics felt it was a great movie with phenomenal acting and a great translation of the play. It was a huge financial success. It was the number one movie in America for two months straight. Now, that sounds like a really huge deal.

[Matt Koplik]

To us now, it was a little.

[Podcast Host]

More common to be the number one movie in America for a long period of time, but still, two months is two months. And it was ended up being, I think, in the top five highest grossing films in America that year. The movie went on to have 13 Oscar nominations, the most of any movie. That year they did not win Best Picture. They lost, I believe, to A Man for All Seasons, Again, another British film. But they did win five awards, including Best Actress for Elizabeth Taylor and Best Supporting Actress for Sandy Dennis. This was also sort of the movie that kind of solidified the image of Liz and Dick. I think when a lot of people think of Elizabeth Taylor and Archer Burton, they do think of this movie, even though they made other projects together post film. The first notable revival of who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf On Broadway was in 1976 with Colleen Dewhurst and Ben Gazzara. It was directed by Edward Albee. I couldn't find a lot of information about the reception of this production, but the little I could find implied to me. It indicated to me that it was well received critically. The New York Times at least really loved it and loved the two of them and felt that this was both a very funny production, but like searingly painful. Dewhurst and Ben Gazzaro were nominated for Tony Awards for this production. There was no other major Broadway production of who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf until 2005 with Kathleen Turner and Bill Irwin, which we mentioned in the podcast. There have been productions before then, obviously, but just not on Broadway. There was a 2001 production at the Guthrie with Patrick Stewart and Mercedes Ruel. There was the production in New Haven with Mike Nichols and Elaine May. The 2005 production with Kathleen Turner did not win revival. They lost to Glengarry, Glen Ross. Bill Irwin won for playing George. Then in 2012, Steppenwolf Theater Company transferred its production from Chicago. I think it went from Chicago to D.C. and then to Broadway. And that production, as you mentioned, starred Tracy Letts, Amy Morton and Carrie Coon. I did some research and was reminded that Madison Dirks was the Nick in that production. Everyone but Madison unfortunately was nominated for a Tony Award. Madison was not. The 2005 production with Kathleen Turner and Bill Irwin is the only Broadway production where all four actors were nominated. The movie is the only other entity of Virginia Woolf where all four actors were nominated. At the original production, the Nick was not nominated. The 76 revival, the nick and Honey were not nominated. As they said in 2012, Madison Dirks Nick was not nominated. There was the 2020 revival for a Metcalf that we talked about that got shut down after like a week of previews because of COVID 2017. There was a London production with Imelda Stanton. You can see, I believe, the first two acts of that on YouTube. I watched the first act. It wasn't for me. Imelda is not my Martha. There was a 2022 production at Geffen Playhouse with Calista Flockhart and Zachary Quinto. We talk about sort of what is the impact of who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? And I think the impact is immense. Oh, and also, if anyone's interested, we talked about this article in the episode that's also in the Boys in the Band episode. It's a 1966 New York Times article written by Stanley Kaufman, who is the chief theater critic at the time. And he does not name Edward Albee, Tennessee Williams and William Inge. Again, he does not name them, but he calls out the three most prolific dramatic writers of the time, which anyone who's in theater knew he was talking about those three. The name of the article is called Homosexual Drama and Its Disguises. And he basically was wondering why these three clearly homosexual playwrights were using women to disguise their queer identities on stage and basically was like, why don't they just write about queer stuff? Which is what led Mark Crowley to write Boys in the Band. Because he was like, fuck you, Stanley Kaufman. I will. The legacy of Virginia Woolf. Up until Virginia Woolf, you know, the American kitchen sink drama was nothing new. We definitely, you know, had kind of staked claim to that with Arthur Miller. You have All My Sons and Death of a Salesman and you have sort of his Greek tragedy version of that with View from the Bridge. And Tennessee Williams sort of took the kitchen sink dramas and gave it a whiff of perfume, a douse of bourbon and an air of poetry. And also an air of the odd. Because plays like Streetcar Named Desire and Rose Tattoo and Sweet Bird of Youth, they're very sexual and they're very human, but they have these almost out of left field twists that give it this heightened, melodramatic as. And as I mentioned earlier, Greek tragedy stakes. And the characters feel like these. How would I call it? These like impressionistic paintings of a human being that you see the human you. You see the essence of someone you might know. But they are filtered in a way that makes them theatrical and potent and very, almost high camp in a way, because they live at a fever pitch that most of us don't live all the time. But it's what makes William such a powerful writer and such a memorable writer and such a quotable writer? Edward Albee, with Virginia Woolf kind of birthed the urban sophisticate drama. It's the kitchen sink drama, and like Williams, it's heightened, but it's not heightened with perfume and an air of poetry. It's. It's the art of the insult. It's the weaponization of intelligence and wit and using all of the things that, you know, everyday Americans had already come to know. The. The overuse of alcohol and the subtle jabs in front of people for the marriage you have that is either completely loveless or there's love, but it's covered in piles and piles of resentment. And he whipped it up into this, as I said, urban sophisticate mentality. And you see that pay out in spades over the decades with so many works of the. We're a couple and we're not in love or in love, but there's just so much toxicity here. You see those kind of coupledom fights in movies like Marriage Story. Right? And there's so many other movies and TV shows that find influence from who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Or reference who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Gilmore Girls referenced it all the time. The TV show 30 something American dad has a whole episode where Roger and Francine play out their own version of who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf without actually ever saying it. The Simpsons has parodied it and referenced it. Melrose plays the nanny, Third Rock from the Sun, Animaniacs, Murphy Brown, the movie Black Bag, with Cate Blanchett and Michael Fassbender playing a married spy couple directed by Steven Soder. The pitch was that that movie was inspired by who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? But what if they made it, you know, like a spy thriller? And then one of the most iconic episodes of the Office ever, Dinner Party. The writers officially stated that their influence for that episode was who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? And if you watch it, like, you can see the influences. It's all, you know, located in one house over the course of one night. And it is at the center, a couple that are so resentful of each other and watching that bitterness seep out through their skin and making their guests uncomfortable and playing all these verbal games that just turn exceptionally deadly. And I think that you see that influence in theater a lot. Again, with the characters who speak so articulately. Is that the right word? I want to say, with such, you know, such articulate characters and in a way, that sometimes defies reality. We talked about this in Angels in America. Everyone in Angels in America is incredibly smart in very different ways, but very smart. And you see them sparring with each other in ways that are compelling and dramatic and hilarious, but also at a level that a lot of audiences can't really get. And part of that is because Tony Kushner himself is just such an insanely smart person. And I'd argue that post Angels, while he never really got as boldly creative and mind blowingly inventive, he got a lot better about writing for characters that were less smart than he was. I'd argue his west side Story screenplay.

[Matt Koplik]

Actually, one of the issues is that.

[Podcast Host]

Everyone is too articulate in that movie.

[Matt Koplik]

And in a movie where everyone is.

[Podcast Host]

Not thinking rationally, he's like, what if everyone was able to express how they felt rationally? But you see writers like him and writers like, say, Josh Harmon or even, I know we mentioned Slave Play in Part one, but Jeremy O. Harris in Slave Play, everyone being able to express themselves so perfectly and succinctly, that doesn't always feel genuine and feels forced. People trying to show off their intelligence and their creativity for language. Whereas Virginia Woolf is about smart people who have shown an agility for. An agility and inability for this kind of barbed combat. And I think that it's not that, like, the first one that does it is the best one, because that's never. That's not always the case. A lot of shows we talk about from, like, the Golden Age broke ground that led to other shows doing it even better and smoother and more concrete and ironclad. But Virginia Woolf is a play that does the urban, sophisticate, kitchen sink drama first. At least America and still kind of does it the best, as evidenced by the fact that we still do it and that the movie still holds up, despite the fact that, you know, I love the movie. The movie has also taken on a life of its own as, like, a camp classic because the performances are so big. But that also kind of makes sense for those characters. Everybody acts and talks so big. You know, you can't play Martha, who. And you can't play George, who have these lines of dialogue that are just so off the cuff, brilliant and vicious and razor sharp, and play these people like they're, you know, in a Richard Linklater movie. There has to be an air for the theatrical about them. And maybe that's another issue that other writers have today, is that they are trying to write, quote, unquote, real people with very Heavy topics because everybody wants their play to be important and they want it to speak to a cultural moment. But there becomes a disconnect between the dialogue and the characters and the plot. And Virginia Woolf, as we said with Kevin, it's actually quite light on plot. It's mostly a character study and an examination of the theme of the disintegration of relationships, of modern day relationships, which obviously relationships are going to stand the test of time because they have and they always have to. But you see how communication changes with couples and how we take these giant swings back and forth. Like before Virginia Woolf couples didn't talk about their problems, they didn't go to therapy. And in Virginia Woolf, you sort of see a plea for like, no, no, no, you have to talk about this. You have to get it out. Because if you don't, you're going to be miserable and it's going to eat away at you. And you can't just ignore reality. You can't just put your head in the sand and be oblivious to it all. You can't create illusions to cope with life. You have to. You can have escapism, you can have moments of retreat to sort of separate yourself from what's going on, recharge and come back. But you cannot live in an alternate reality while reality is happening. It always finds a way to come back at you. It always does. And George and Martha are great examples of that. Yes, they are fictional, but who hasn't seen a George and Martha in their time?

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe they aren't.

[Podcast Host]

Maybe the real people aren't as verbose as the fictional characters, but they're there. They exist. So with this said, we have some closing thought prompts, I suppose. What does Virginia Woolf have to say about love? What makes George and Martha work as a couple and what makes them toxic? Are they able to survive the events of this evening? Do we think? Was it necessary for them to go through this night in order to continue? What do we think happens to the status of Nick and Honey's relationship after this? Will Honey ever tell Nick that in fact she was really pregnant, but she terminated the pregnancy? Do we think that Honey has gotten pregnant since then and she keeps on getting rid of the baby? Or was that first encounter so traumatic? Because remember, this is early 60s and honey is not, you know, having A exactly up to code procedure happening. So there was always the risk that it could A, kill you and B, permanently damage your body. So it's possible that she only had the one and it just permanently damaged her. But what do you guys Think and also just. Is love enough? Is finding someone who's, quote, unquote, your match going to lead to peace or to battle? Because in a lot of ways, George and Martha are a perfect match. They understand each other. They work at a similar level. Maybe they come at it in different ways or at least with different energies, but their brains work very similarly. Is that. Do you want to find someone who's the perfect match for you, or do you want to find somebody who balances you and makes you a better person? Why do you think George and Martha need that volatility to keep their relationship fresh? Why do. I'm sure many of you have been witness or maybe even been a part of that couple that is just too dramatic. Fights all the time and makes their friends uncomfortable. And I think for some people, they think that that's sort of the Tennessee Williams of it all. Their passion keeps it fresh. They fight because they're fighting them, because they care. They won't just let it get bad. They. They will fight to make it good. But there's a difference between fighting for something and just fighting. And George and Martha in Virginia Woolf, they're not fighting for something, they're just fighting. Martha claims that it's a symptom of wanting to, you know, hold on to herself and her sanity and her dignity, but ultimately, does she end the play with it? She's on the floor now, collapsed in tears. Who's to say? But why do you guys think that people feel they need that to keep their relationship going? And then what do you think makes Virginia Woolf such an enduring classic? And also, why do you guys think that it's such a strong addition to the queer culture? I know I talked about the camp factor of it all. Kevin and I talked about how Martha is just such a bombastic, dynamic figure. And a lot of people in queer culture, when it comes to pop culture, they love those over the top, brazen characters with good dialogue and essentiality about them. I honestly think that good dialogue is what will always do it for. For members of the queer community when it comes to their media. They just. If they can find something quotable and something memorable, they will lob onto it forever. Lob onto it, glob onto it forever. And I think that's what does it for Virginia Woolf. That's it for now, I think. I think we're gonna close that with that today. I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. I know I really did. I could honestly talk about this play for another three hours, though. With that said, we're Gonna wrap things up. We thank you guys so much for stopping by, taking a little time with us over here at Broadway Breakdown. Remember, if you like the podcast, give us a nice 5 star rating or review. You guys have been really killing it with the reviews lately. Next week will be the Drowsy Chaperone with Eli Rolo. If you haven't yet, make sure to get your tickets for Broadway A Cabaret now at Green Room 42, November 14th at 7 o'. Clock. I can safely say now that we have our two guests locked in. One is Ms. Natalie Walker, Drama desk Lucille Lortel nominee Natalie Walker. The other one is Mr. Josh Daniel, he of the Book of Mormon and Little Shop of Horrors, both of whom former guests of the podcast think about. The cabaret is less of a cabaret and more as a live musical episode. 75 minutes, nice and tight. So make sure to grab your tickets for that. There will be a link for that in the episode. Description Description. If you haven't joined the Substack yet, please do. We are at over 200 members. I think we're at like 2:43, 2:44 right now. Maybe that'll go up by the time this episode comes out, but yeah. Well over 200 members of the substack. Well over 300 members on the Discord Channel where you can chat with a whole bunch of other Broadway Breakdown listeners. You can chat with me on Substack sometimes on Discord. On Discord, they also has a lot of discussion about the shows this season, the Tony Awards, a lot of media being exchanged. So if you are listening to these episodes, but you want to actually watch Virginia Woolf or you want to watch Drowsy Chaperone, the Discord Channel has you covered. There is a channel with media links to it. So people have videos for Virginia Woolf. They've got videos for Dreamgirls.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a very good resource.

[Podcast Host]

I highly recommend it. I asked Kevin after the fact because I forgot to ask him when we recorded, but I reached out to him yesterday on Insta and I said, hey, who do you want to close out your episode? What diva? And he said, without missing a beat, Dorothy Loudon.

[Matt Koplik]

That's how you know he's a gay. So that's it.

[Podcast Host]

We're gonna close out with Ms. Dorothy Louden. So thank you again, guys for stopping by. We really appreciate it. And that's it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, we'll see you next week for Drowsy.

[Podcast Host]

Take it away, Dorothy.

[Kevin Zach]

Bye, everybody.

[Matt Koplik]

Marching to and fro it ain't fast or slow Motto.

[Kevin Zach]

Hallelujah.