Disruptive Broadway Chaos w/ PJ Adzima

Summary

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Broadway Breakdown – “Disruptive Broadway Chaos” with PJ Adzima

Podcast Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: PJ Adzima (Book of Mormon actor, social media figure)
Release Date: May 18, 2023

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Overview

In this energetic and deeply opinionated episode, Matt Koplik welcomes Broadway performer and social media activist PJ Adzima to dig into the tumultuous climate surrounding the Tony Awards, the broader state of American theatre, criticism culture, and the evolving dynamics of Broadway in the face of disruption (notably the Writers Guild strike). True to the podcast’s tone, this conversation is richly layered with both foul-mouthed humor and passionate, nuanced analysis of why Broadway matters, why it’s floundering, and what should change. With the Tony Awards in chaos, Matt and PJ use the moment to examine both the entrenched dysfunction and inspiring resilience of the theatre world.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Role of Criticism and Honesty in Broadway (00:31–06:57)

• Matt and PJ open with praise for each other’s work, notably Matt’s unfiltered, deeply personal brand of theatre criticism.
• The risk of “positivity-only” vibes: Both decry the prevailing culture of toxic positivity and how it fosters mediocrity.
  • Matt: “The people were like, ‘Only positivity. Positivity only vibes here.’ I’m like, that’s toxic. And no one grows from that.” (03:39)
• Calling for accountable art: They advocate for honesty and constructive feedback over relentless affirmation.
• Notable Quote:
  • PJ (02:48): “It fosters mediocrity. We’re not gonna talk about how we really feel, and instead, we end up with bland art. And I don’t think that’s helpful to anybody.”

2. Making Bold Choices on Stage: "Strong and Wrong" (06:14–07:22)

• Celebrating risk, even in notorious flops (like ‘Diana’): They distinguish between art that’s bland and work that swings big, even if it fails.
  • Matt (06:14): “Again, if you’re gonna be on stage, make a fucking choice.”
• Inoffensive = Invisible: When artists play it safe, they disappear.
  • PJ (06:23): “I would rather you be an asshole… who moves through the world and has an opinion. …It’s when you’re trying to not offend anybody and when you’re putting me to sleep, that’s the one thing you can’t do – bore me.”
• Iconic social media’s role: The pair riff on how going viral changes the way artists are seen and discussed.

3. Social Media, Activism, and Relating to an Audience (08:18–09:28)

• PJ’s activism emerges from a desire for connection, not soap-boxing: He rarely talks Broadway; most of his work is rooted in American social/ political issues.
  • PJ (08:45): “When I do, it makes me feel less alone and crazy. …It’s facilitated a conversation.”

4. Chaos at the Tony Awards: The WGA Strike’s Impact (10:14–14:21)

• The state of the 2023 Tony Awards: Constant uncertainty as the Writers Guild disallows waivers, halting the typical ceremony machinery.
  • Matt (10:48): “Up until last week, it looked like there might not be a Tony Awards.”
• Connecting TV/Film and Broadway labor issues: Both discuss how the writers’ strike, centered on streaming and AI upheavals, echoes broader challenges in theatre.
  • Matt (16:16): “We’re looking into the future, into the abyss and going, ‘Oh, we’re unprotected.’”
• Why sacrifices matter: Both reluctantly agree disruption is essential for progress, even if Broadway is collateral damage.
  • Matt (12:20): “It shows greater strength to be flexible than to be stubborn.”

5. Broadway’s Systemic Problems: Access, Innovation, and Survival (21:29–27:38)

• Broadway’s resistance to change: A lament for the lack of innovation and leadership with the will (or vision) to adapt.
  • PJ (21:33): “Innovate. We don’t do that. Not in this town.”
• Economic pressures & ticket pricing: The myth of unsustainable running costs (e.g., “it does not cost $3 million a week to run Hamilton”) and the need for smarter audience building.
  • Matt (27:00): “If we’re talking about how Broadway can be so inaccessible because of its pricing, the fuck are we doing here?”
  • PJ (27:47): “Just because we’ve painted ourselves in a corner by making these tickets so prohibitively expensive.”
• Getting “butts in seats” through outreach, accessibility, and word of mouth; calling out passive producers.

6. The Fragility of Broadway and the Importance of the Tonys (29:48–32:43)

• The Tony Awards as a lifeline: For many shows, especially in a post-pandemic world, the Tonys are crucial to financial survival and cultural exposure.
  • PJ (22:00): “The Tony Awards are essential because it Gets the shows in front of middle America… these are the very few opportunities we have to get a production number in front of a camera so people can get excited about the show.”
• But the dependence on the Tonys signals fragility: The industry’s reliance on a single event is itself a red flag.

7. The 2023 Tony Awards: Scriptless, Uncertain, and Potentially Revolutionary (34:09–37:04)

• What happens if there are no writers? Without a written script, the show might be a “total shit show” but could inspire new ways of presenting Broadway.
• The need for new leadership: A generational transition is overdue, both in creative and business spheres, and the lack thereof ties back to issues in the WGA strike.

8. Generational Gaps and the Egosystem of Broadway (38:06–40:01)

• The stalling of mentorship and pipeline building: Current leadership doesn’t foster or elevate younger voices, stunting both creative and institutional innovation.
  • PJ (39:06): “It’s a team sport… this is one ecosystem. …We can’t do it alone in an ego-system.”
  • Matt (39:20): “Our current generation of leadership is not making room for those younger generations to come in and start learning…”

9. Art, Accessibility, and Making Theatre for the Audience (42:19–46:56)

• Who is Broadway for? Shows must honor both creator and audience needs.
  • PJ (42:25): “It needs to be for the people in the audience.”
• Celebrating off-Broadway success (Titanique): A rare example of nailing clever content, market fit, and audience engagement.

10. Best Idea Wins: Collaboration vs. Condescension (50:34–54:25)

• Collaborative creation is key: The Office Ladies podcast is cited as a template for “the best idea wins” culture.
  • PJ (51:27): “Your idea makes me better. …We’ll have this thing that neither of us could do without each other.”
• Holier-than-thou artists are lonely artists: Take the work seriously, not yourself.
  • Matt (49:03): “Take the work seriously, not yourself.”

11. The Unique Power of Theatre (52:00–54:25)

• Live theatre is an unrepeatable experience – and audiences short-change themselves (and artists) when they multitask or disrespect the space.

12. The Tonys: Make It for the Nerds, Not the Masses (53:53–55:38)

• Stop pandering to TikTok and mainstream TV: The Tony Awards do best when they lean into what makes Broadway unique—even if that means a night full of in-jokes.
  • Matt (53:53): “Make the Tonys for the nerds, yo.”
• Showcase all the disciplines (design, writing, process); production numbers give true value.

13. Art That Challenges: Avoid Echo Chambers (62:28–67:15)

• Great theatre should discomfort and debate: Matt and PJ critique didactic or “echo chamber” shows and advocate for complexity and nuance, referencing controversial revivals like 1776.

14. The Cult of Repeat Viewing & Broadway Fandom (71:28–74:38)

• Why do some fans only see one show over and over? Both appreciate fandom but advocate for broader exploration and education, using long-runners like Phantom and Mormon as case studies.

15. Canon, Context, and Why Carousel Still Matters (76:08–84:01)

• Matt passionately defends Carousel, illuminating its psychological relevance and the dangers of surface-level “problematic” readings.
  • Matt (82:10): “He gives his daughter from beyond the grave the ability to let go of some of the pain she’s inherited from him... And that is what gets him into heaven...”
• Context matters; online outrage often misses the point.
  • Matt (83:06): “People don’t have the conversation; they go to Instagram and they go, ‘Wanna hear a problematic line?’ …You’re not taking context into account.”

16. Building a New Broadway—For Audiences, By Artists (90:05–92:45)

• What should the Tonys be? Less about glitz and scripted bits; focus on actual performances and behind-the-scenes storytelling.
  • PJ (90:18): “I care more about a night that showcases the variety of what we have to offer in New York City.”
  • Matt (91:13): “Burn the institution of it down to the ground and have it rise anew.”
• The future: access, authenticity, and experimentation. Tough times are opportunities for reinvention.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the “positivity-only” era:
  • Matt (03:39): “The people were like, only positivity. Positivity only vibes here. I’m like, that’s toxic. And no one grows from that.”
• On Broadway’s hostility to innovation:
  • PJ (21:33): “Innovate. We don’t do that. Not in this town.”
• On honest criticism and artistic growth:
  • PJ (27:47): “That is a brilliant thing that you just… Because we’ve painted ourselves in a corner by making these tickets so prohibitively expensive.”
• On embracing risk and “strong and wrong”:
  • Matt (06:14): “Diana, I love. Cause it’s just two hours so start to finish of strong and wrong choices.”
• On “making it for the nerds”:
  • Matt (53:53): “Make the Tonys for the nerds, yo.”
• On the show-business "egosystem":
  • PJ (39:08): “In an egosystem… We do live and die by each other. I need you to succeed so that I may succeed.”
• On live captures and legacy:
  • Matt (106:24): “Thinking about how it affects the original run of your show is just thinking too small. Think about what it does for the legacy of your show overall.”
• On advice for artists:
  • Matt (118:24): “Get comfortable in your life, not in your art.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:31–06:57: Criticism, honesty, and “toxic positivity” in Broadway culture.
• 10:14–14:21: The Tony Awards, WGA strike, and ripple effects across entertainment.
• 21:29–27:38: Why Broadway can’t innovate, ticketing, and accessibility problems.
• 38:06–40:01: Generational divides and “egosystem” dysfunction.
• 53:53–55:38: “Make the Tonys for the nerds”—rethinking the ceremony for its true fans.
• 62:28–67:15: Art that challenges, avoids echo chambers, and the dangers of preaching to the choir.
• 71:28–74:38: Broadway fandom, repeat viewing culture, and the limits of obsession.
• 76:08–84:01: Carousel, context, and the dangers of meme-ifying complex works.
• 90:05–92:45: The future Tony Awards and broader Broadway: focus on process, performance, and authenticity.

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Final Thoughts

Matt and PJ close with actionable suggestions and some hard-won wisdom:

• Give audiences real access—through affordable tickets, livestreams, behind-the-scenes content, and live captures.
• Let go of gatekeeping and focus on process and collaboration.
• Cultivate best-idea-wins spaces (across generations and disciplines).
• Don’t be afraid to blow up failing institutions—embrace chaos as a chance for renewal.
• Always, always take the work seriously, not yourself.

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Closing (119:07):
PJ wraps with a plug for his social media (@pjadz) and Book of Mormon. Matt invites listeners to keep sharing reviews and picks Bernadette Peters as the closing “Broadway diva” cue.

“Get comfortable in your life, not your art.” – Matt Koplik (118:24)

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Transcript

[A]

You say the neon lights are bright on Broadway On Broadway you say there's always magic in the air on Broadway. Hello, all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. Normally, we would be doing the big move, but we are on hiatus as we cover the Tony Awards. The history, the legacy. What's the shit show that it's currently at? Now, I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is an actor that you might know from Broadway. He's currently in Book of Mormon as Elder McKinley. Or you might know him from social media as. As an ally. Please welcome to the POD PJ Adzuma.

[B]

Hey.

[A]

Hi, pj. Hi. How are you? Matt, I am so great. For those of you who do not subscribe to the Patreon, you cannot see what PJ is wearing, but it is indeed a fitted Diana the Musical T shirt.

[B]

Yes, it is. I wore it just for you. Thank you. Because I've seen from your writing that you are a fan, and I too, am a huge fan of Diana the Musical. I absolutely love it.

[A]

So you've seen my writing on Instagram that I. Yes. So I guess you've been on Broadway, you've toured the country. You are a social justice warrior. I guess the question on everyone's mind is when was the moment that the words Matt Koplik meant something to you this year?

[B]

I'm actually. I am a huge fan of your writing. Oh, thank you. I really. It's been. You know, people have sent it to me, and I've been sending it around. I. And I'm here to blow smoke. Like, I find your reviews to be the most essential piece of theater criticism in New York City.

[A]

Guys, I said that.

[B]

I said that right now. And I said that in full. Like, I am a huge fan. And I think that what you're doing with your platform that is so different from a paper or an establishment is that, like, it is so personal. It is not for any company. It really is just your take on things, and that's what we are so interested in right now. And I love hearing what you have to say about show because usually I agree with you. Oh, thank you.

[A]

Well, the day where you, the human lead, disagree is the day that'll be very dramatic. I don't really desire to be a critic. I just feel like the truth is I'm still not sure what it is. I want to be.

[B]

You're just a good one.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

And that's fine. I think you just have good taste.

[A]

Thank you. I also just feel like we are in a stage right now in the theater community where we were talking about this off mic, but we can say it on mic. This is not a hot take. Everyone's very nice. Not everyone is very kind. And I also feel like the community is not doing a great job of holding everyone accountable to doing our best work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is not to say that everything has to be Macbeth, but, you know, if you want. As I said in my review for shocks, if you want to be a rowdy bowdy, stand up and be one. Don't be weak socks. Like everyone. Like, this is. We all got into this world of show because we love it, because we wanted to make something that lasts. Not necessarily for the followers, for the gram or any like that. You know, fame and fortune is wonderful, but ultimately it's about making something. Yeah.

[B]

It's about the art form.

[A]

Yeah. Children. Children and art. Yeah. And I just feel like that conversation isn't really happening so much right now because everyone's just so afraid of, oh, what if I offend you? What? And I'm like, it shouldn't be offensive to say, I love you. I respect your craft. I wasn't a fan so much of what you did this time. I look forward to the next one.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But if you. If you can say something constructive in a way that someone else can receive it, I feel like that is important. And that takes. Not to, you know, toot my own horn, but that does take its own amount of intelligence.

[B]

100%. Yeah.

[A]

The people were like, only positivity. Positivity. Only vibes here. I'm like, that's toxic. And no one. No one grows from that. I agree.

[B]

It's just. It fosters mediocrity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like, we're not gonna talk about how we really feel, and instead, we end up with bland art. And I don't think that that's helpful to anybody.

[A]

That just leads to a million divorces. That's correct. The number of relationships we've seen where it's just like, we don't talk about the things, and then eventually, five years later, it blows up and there's carnage all over the floor.

[B]

No, no, no. Have the talk. Have the talk. It's. Yeah, you must.

[A]

And to point to your T shirt as well as a musical that I talked about on my Instagram, Batsinderella. When shows like that Happen that do not necessarily do well. And the. And it's just agreed on in the mainstream that it is not good. The violent negativity towards it is such. Because everyone's got all these pent up feelings about other things that they can't say outwardly. And then it's like, oh, we. We've got the one show now where I have the outlet so we can make the jokes. I'm like, yes, like, best not good. But like, do I feel the need to just like trash it every day? No. Mostly because I have the outlets to be like. I also was underwhelmed by New York, New York and such and such and such and such. And I can talk about it in a healthy way.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I think that it's really important to. While. While you can have high standards and articulate your criticism, to never be mean spirited.

[A]

No.

[B]

And that's like even. Even in Diana. Why I love Diana so much and I wear its merch proudly. Is that you? Everyone up there and on the team was giving 100% and there were so many things that were incredible.

[A]

It just.

[B]

The souffle never rose. And that's what I love about this industry, is that I go into every show hoping that it will blow my mind. I am a fan. I am so desperate for something to get off the ground and succeed. And even when it doesn't, then I think it's important for us to go well.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Yeah, because we are social creatures. We are in a social industry and we all are learning from each other all the time, whether we're collecting it or not. And so seeing where did this go wrong, how could this be better? And then having those conversations helps you every time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Instead of going, well, I love everything, you're just gonna stay bland and not get any better.

[A]

What you do 1000. You are numbing your taste buds. So you can't tell. I said this in one of my reviews. So you can't tell the difference between like ice cream and cottage cheese. The fuck? That just shows you have no taste, girl. Correct. Yeah. No, no. What was I gonna say? Fuck no. I always go in hoping something's gonna be great. Diana, I love. Cause it's just two hours, so start to finish. Of strong and wrong choices.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it is the strongest of choices.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And I'm like, if you're gonna. Again, if you're gonna be on stage, make a fucking choice.

[B]

This is the thing is the worst thing you can do is be boring.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I listen. Even if you're a. Even as a person. Right. It's like, I would rather you be an asshole. Like this big flamboyant personality who moves through the world and has an opinion. Cause at least I can like understand you and respect you for like doing your shit and owning it. It's when you're trying to not offend anybody and when you're putting me to sleep, that's the one thing you can't do, is bore me. I am paid to be entertained. You must be entertaining. And Diana is entertaining.

[A]

Sure is.

[B]

And so I love it.

[A]

Yeah. If you're trying to be a non inoffensive individual, you're no longer a person. You're a wallpaper. Correct.

[B]

Yes. And there's a lot of those.

[A]

Yes. And listen, wallpaper is thin. It can be pretty. And we love both of those things. But a wallpaper you can't have conversations with. No, no. But we're not talking about wallpaper, nor are we talking about our personal opinions on my Instagram, which we both agree is iconic. Iconic? Yes. As someone who has gone viral many times across from me, we both know what it is to have iconic social media.

[B]

It's. It's a new. It's a new weird thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How do you feel about it?

[A]

Well, I've only gone viral twice and both times it happened, it was so fleeting that I never felt famous. I was just like, cool people enjoy. So like, I did. I did two things. I did a video as every gal in the ensemble of Les Mis Amazing. With each different recording of. At the end of the day of that solo and in a bed. And so I did that and that kind of made. Oh, and that made the rounds. And then I wrote a piece last year that was inspired by a Tony nominated musical about. Is this a good song or is the actor just saying hi?

[B]

Great, Great article. I love this. Do you call them articles or you call them posts? I just called it an article.

[A]

I call it me jerking off onto social media. That's what I call. I don't know. I don't call them anything. I just, I.

[B]

Anyway, regardless, I really, I love that and I think that it really captures this moment very well, which is what any good piece of criticism should.

[A]

You, though, are doing things that are much more about the social climate. So is it more real? Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But you also do it in a way that I like because you make it accessible. You are informative while not preaching. Nor are you being dry. You are making sure it can be absorbed by various people.

[B]

Thank you. Yeah. I really think it's just about having a conversation and connecting with people. And for me, I just started doing this because I felt really powerless in this time.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I don't always talk. I rarely talk about Broadway. This is my first, like, thing that I talk about. I'm talking about politics, I'm talking about, you know, just what it's like to be an American and just trying to share my perspective because when I do, it makes me feel less alone and crazy. And I've been really happy that people have reached out and gone like, oh my gosh, I see you. And it's facilitated a conversation and I don't have the answers to anything. I just have my own opinions. And I really enjoy fostering a discussion with people because I think if I feel that same way, people can feel seen and heard and want to just engage and. And then you don't feel like you're just getting beat down by wave after wave of bad news that we just seem to have all the time in this country.

[A]

Well, yes, there's always a lot of bad news. I will also say there's also still good news. No, there is. The news cycle really only gets viewers with negative stuff or like very controversial stuff. So there's a happiness account that I'll look at sometimes just cause they're like, here's 10 good things that happened in the world today that isn't being shared on cnn because that doesn't get. I agree. Yes. And that's not. Listen, that's just me. Game Recognized game. The thing is, pj, we've gone on for how long and I don't know, and we haven't even gotten to the root of why you're here today.

[B]

Well, I think we're here because I think I'm here because I really respect your opinions and I hope you respect mine. And now we can talk about whatever we want, including the Tony Awards.

[A]

Well, that's the thing. Well, so first of all, yes, fully respect you. I asked you on here not because of your social media following, nor did I ask you because you've got pretty, pretty eyes and a pretty, pretty shirt. Talking about a pretty, pretty girl in a pretty, pretty dress. No, you. I've been watching you lately and I'm like, oh, that's someone who I think will have a lot of fun talking to me about something stupid, but also important, like the Tony words. So a lot of this is also because there's a lot of flibberty jibbit of like, the fuck is gonna happen.

[B]

What the Fuck is gonna happen?

[A]

Yeah. Up until last week, it looked like there might not be a Tony Awards.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then last night, it was kind of implied that there would be. But now this morning, it's sort of like, well, it still might not happen. It's just. There's one less hurdle now.

[B]

I cannot keep up with what it's gonna actually look like. But it's just endlessly fascinating, and it facilitates a bigger conversation about where we are in this industry and the role they play. And one of my favorite pieces of criticism. It's like I came out as saying, I really think the Tony should still happen no matter what. When it was canceled, that was my hot take. And a lot of people. A lot of people were very upset with me for not blindly being like, a strike is meant to be disruptive and strikes are supposed to be disruptive. But I also think that it needs to facilitate a conversation about the impact of what it can do to our industry, which is the weakest arm of the entertainment industry, 1000%. It is already hobbled. It. It is already needs all the help it can get. And then to take away what so many shows are counting on to make it to an extended life past the summer, it really. It really. We need to be talking about this as people who are directly affected by it. And I don't know. I think it's important to have opinions about your industry, and even if it's just to facilitate conversation, and those opinions can change. Like, my opinions have really grown and shifted a lot on the Tony Awards, and I don't know how I feel, but I know that I can't just blindly be like, good, take them away. And while you're taking it away, just.

[A]

Close all of Broadway. Close it all. To quote summer in Rick and Morty, it's. And I'm paraphrasing because I just watched the episode last night. It shows greater strength to be flexible than to be stubborn.

[B]

Damn. 100%. Yeah. I love that.

[A]

Of course, she's talking about something very specific, which is, you know, if there's any mo For Rick and Morty, it's specificity on that show. But I. I stand by that. I. The more information you get, the more your opinions change and the world changes. I mean, that's. There's a reason why so many progressive minds come from people who have lived in big cities where you just see all walks of life. Because the truth is, when you go on social media or you read in the paper about different kinds of people, it doesn't actually give you insight into who those people really are. So people have all these prejudices because they don't see it up front. They don't interact with people. And as you said, conversations are where the greatest changes happen. It's, it's, it seems insignificant at the time, but it's in increments.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The more people you just talk to and converse with and not lecture to.

[B]

Yeah, I totally agree. You should never. You should do more listening than talking.

[A]

Yeah. We say this is somebody who is currently on Broadway in a show all about preaching, but mocking preaching. Yes, yes, correct. But. So let's set the scene in terms of the Tonys and what's been happening with it. There's a guild, little known guild, known as the Writers Guild of America, and they are currently on Strique. Yes, yes. Why are they on Strique?

[B]

PJ they're on Strique because the studio's. Basically, it's about fair wages. So a lot of writers are living paycheck to paycheck in an industry that makes billions of dollars for people who are at the top of that industry. And so it's an unfair distribution of where that money goes, especially when it comes to the creators who are essential for churning out the content that then makes so much money. Without writers, there are, there is nothing. And so that we are at a point now where it's important for these writers to be getting a piece of the thing that they create. And the ripples of this strike touch the entire entertainment industry 1,000%.

[A]

Yeah. And this will connect later on as we talk about Broadway. But a lot of the issues that have arisen are because of changes in the industry since the last negotiation, specifically with streaming. But also even network TV has taken advantage of the older rules of the guild in terms of contracts and payment and have used it to manipulate, to pay writers less. And, you know, running costs are still getting higher with television production. But the money's not going to writers. It's going to other places. And you know, they're not the studios. It's the alliance of movies and TV producers.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's. I believe that is the organization that. It's amtp. Amtpa.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They are making millions. The companies themselves are making billions. And what they're doing is not technically illegal, but they will do things like they will shortchange a writer's contract and get as much content out of them in a shorter period of time. And they will, will pay them technically fairly for the amount of time they put in. They've just now Truncated the amount of time they work. And they have found other loopholes of, like, well, you're not a producer, so you don't get to be on set. Whereas a lot of writers get to be producers on TV shows, or used to be, anyway. Royalties and residuals are a changing game now because there's so few reruns on tv. If everything is streaming, that means, you know, you can watch Friends on HBO Max as much as you want. And there's no. There hasn't been a negotiation about how that works. Right. Because the last time there was a negotiation, streaming was brand new. Yeah. And it was like, basically Hulu and Netflix. And Netflix wasn't really doing. They weren't doing original content yet. And I think they were mostly doing movies at the time. So just the negotiation hadn't happened.

[B]

It's the Wild west now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We are in real time. And then on top of it, it's AI.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We're looking into the future, into the abyss and going, oh, we're unprotected.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if they keep up the creative business practices that have screwed writers out of money, they will not stop. And so this is really to put in the. The buffer and protections needed for writers to make sure that they can have just a livable wage in an already very difficult industry to break into and thrive in.

[A]

And to be fair to the asshole producers, we as a viewing audience have made the case for them that they don't need writers because we watch so much fucking garbage.

[B]

Yeah, it's true.

[A]

The reality TV that people consume, the bad scripted content that people consume just so they can make a YouTube video deconstructing the badly scripted content. Like the number of YouTubers who have blown up from just destroying the Pretty Little Liars reboot or the Gossip Girl reboot. And I'm like, well, you're still giving them viewership. And even though eventually they will cancel it, you're drawing attention to the content they're making. Even fucking, you know, Emily in Paris, which is taken over the world by people just hating it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm like, how about you just show them that you want quality crap by not watching the bad shit or not watching Love is Blind or the Circle all the fucking time.

[B]

It's so hard, though. But it's junk food.

[A]

It is.

[B]

It's built like junk food. And you're. And people consume things for comfort and sometimes. And in an overstimulated, overworked, crazy economy where you're maybe working three jobs and you come home and you're exhausted it's like, maybe I can't handle succession. Maybe I need love is blind to just be dumb comfort food at the end of the day, which is the need for all of it.

[A]

I support it. I have my own Tom comfort zone. But you cannot live on Cheetos alone.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

And I just feel like there's so little people are allowing themselves stimulation on a visual sense on, you know, just audio sense, but not actually mentally intellectually.

[B]

I completely agree.

[A]

And I can only stand by people watching like the Real Housewives of Blank if they are also stimulating their brains in other ways.

[B]

I completely agree.

[A]

Outside of going on social media and being, like, problematic, you know, And. And also, I want to say this about you. Something. I really like what you do. I already talked about, like, how you will share information and try to make it in a relatable, consumable way. I like that because so many people will just like, repost an article and say, this is bad. I'm like, okay, but can we talk about it? Yeah, yeah, like, let's. Let's get.

[B]

What's your opinion on the reading?

[A]

And like, yes. And like, also get the information out there. And don't just, like, propagate immediate things that you read. Like, read three other articles. Make sure you have the right take. Because there have been some breaking news items that ended up not being true in the last year, and people would just share the first immediate thing. Point is.

[B]

Point is the Tony Awards.

[A]

So this all comes back to the Tony Awards. So the Writers Guild has been on strike, and there are a lot of other contracts that are up for negotiations soon, which will come back to the Tony Awards. But all the guilds have shown solidarity with the writers because the only way for these accommodations to happen is if there is no budging whatsoever from any of the guilds and does have disruption. Now, there are certain things that will take a little longer for studios to feel the repercussions of because a lot of content has already been greenlit and is getting produced. It's like there is a backlog of stuff that is getting done. Right. But that also means they have to change their platforms of how they spread out their content over the next, like, two years because of less stuff. So it's not. They're not feeling the heat right now, but they are going to feel it in a year.

[B]

And yet the only way that they. That this strike works is to last a long time.

[A]

Exactly. And the more guilds go on strike with them, like the DGA is about to have their contracts come to a close, and they might go on strike in a few weeks, which we'll talk about with the Tonys as well. This is to say the Tony Awards, which is, technically speaking, not a. You know, it's not a show with like a third act, three act structure. It's not a. It's not succession. You know, it's not all these characters and dialogue. But there are writers involved.

[B]

Yes, like any awards show.

[A]

Exactly. There are bits that have to be done. For example, Ms. DeBose did not sing. Angela Basset did the thing impromptu. That was scripted.

[B]

Yes, it was. And rehearsed.

[A]

And rehearsed by everyone. Yes. Her opening number last year for the Tonys, scripted by writers in the guild and. And directed by someone who's in the dga. And so the Tony Awards, the Tony Award committee and the Broadway League requested a waiver from the WGA, saying, Let us please do the ceremony on the 11th as is. We really, really need this.

[B]

It's essential to our industry.

[A]

Yes. And the WGA said no. And a lot of people on Broadway got very upset at first, and they said, this is going to be detrimental to the business. To a lot of shows this season. They really count it. Like you were saying.

[B]

Yeah, that's me. I was one of them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I. Yeah.

[A]

And that is true.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But also, as we were saying, we do need to show loyalty. If we're going to make change, we have to have the disruption. Correct. It's unfortunate that Broadway can be a casualty, but it does shine a brighter light on a lot of the business practices that Broadway has been doing for a while, but especially post Covid. That is not working.

[B]

No. It's almost as if it's time to innovate.

[A]

What. What's the word? Innovate.

[B]

Innovate. We don't do that. Not in this town.

[A]

No.

[B]

You know, it brings me back to, you know, we are a. Broadway is so hard, but there's zero margin for error. Right. Like, we. The only way you're making money is if your show is a hit and soldier out. If it's. If it's a damn good show that's running at half capacity, you will close.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's really hard right now. In an age where, again, we have more streaming than ever, when we've got more entertainment than ever, when we walk around with a supercomputer in our pocket, how do you keep this archaic art form alive and pure, but also get it in front of as many eyeballs as possible? And the Tony Awards are essential because it Gets. Gets the shows in front of middle America, in front of the people who don't live on the coasts, who are gonna plan their vacation and come into the city and go, oh, I wanna see that. It looked really good on the Tony Awards. Even if they don't watch the whole ceremony, they can watch the YouTube video that gets passed around that it can then play on Good Morning America. Like, these are the very few opportunities we have to get a production number in front of a camera so people can get excited about the show.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And the fact that so many people have been commenting on my thing saying the fact that the whole industry hinges around one night means that this industry's in trouble. And I said, yes. Yeah, you're right. Exactly. And post Covid, we're looking. We need to now innovate. We need to find a way to not be so beholden to this world. One show that barely. People barely watch anyway.

[A]

Yeah, well, it's. It's reflective of how many people go to Broadway. Like, Broadway, when. Even when it does well is not the same as a movie doing well. And like, the Oscars, you know, go up and down as well, but more people go to the movies than go to Broadway. It's just. It's more accessible.

[B]

It's 100%.

[A]

It's cheaper. It's. And there's more of them around there. Same thing with television, the Grammys. So, like, even though. Yes. Let's say people like, oh, 4 million people. How much can that do? I'm like. Even if like a tenth of those people buy tickets, that next week that you've just sold out, like a year run of a show, 100%, and you've.

[B]

Given how many people jobs? Yeah, like, it's. It. I know the numbers are small, but it's because this is such a small ecosystem. It's so tiny. And then the ripples of it.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's so unstable. Like, it really is. It's. It's this perfect little ecosystem, and everything has to go right in order for you to have a hit. And just the devastation of not having a Tony Awards would just wipe out so many shows that could then go on to have long lives and change lives and give people the security for the first time in their lives to, you know, leave their waiting jobs and stop babysitting and save and get. Get out of. Break into an industry and stay there, as opposed to getting into the industry and being shut out of it again and not knowing when the next time you're gonna have that production contract. Come through.

[A]

It's a. The cyclical nature of Broadway is a double edged sword, and it's one that I think people aren't as aware of as they should be. Because on the one hand, we don't wish anyone out of work. Never. Maybe Kevin Spacey, but other than other.

[B]

Than that, I don't think you have to wish anymore. I think it worked.

[A]

We did it, Joe.

[B]

We did it.

[A]

But you know what I mean, we don't wish anyone out of work.

[B]

No. I want every show to be a hit.

[A]

Yes. But then we have these conversations of, well, we need more representation. We need more stories of different ecosystems in this world to which I say, great, the only way that can happen on Broadway is a show's got to close for another show to come in.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

That's just. That's just the fucking circle of life. So every time a show closes, while I mourn the people who are losing their jobs in that moment, I then get excited for the people who will be getting new jobs in a new story coming on in. Great. And. And the problem is, as you said, like, for a show to be successful on Broadway now, just the way that shows are capitalized, the way the running costs work, you know, it's got to run. Well, actually. No, sorry, it doesn't have to. There is a.

[B]

They'd like it to.

[A]

Well, well, there's a myth here, and I've talked about this before, and I'm going to throw it under the bus right now just because it's such an easy target. Great. It does not cost $3 million a week to run Hamilton. It just does not. I think at this point it probably cost maybe a million or maybe a little less. There are some shows that obviously cost way more than others, and people be very surprised at how running costs do work on Broadway. But when Hamilton was at its prime, grossing like $3.3 million a week, and when they went from the, like, main ticket being $850 for an orchestra seat, and Lin Manuel Miranda took to social media and he said, guys, we added like a whole second row of $10 ham for hams. And this is why we did it, to offset the cost of that. And I love Lin and he's been such. He's such a wonderful champion of Broadway and he's like, definitely our most famous person out there and he's a good person. But that was bullshit.

[B]

Great.

[A]

It was a bullshit excuse, right? Because they would be grossing $3.3 million a week, and it does not cost that much to run Hamilton at That point when they were grossing that much, it probably cost about 1.1. So that's $2 million is just going to Lynn. To the entire creative team and, like, listen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And make your money.

[B]

That's a hit by my show.

[A]

Exactly. You want to call them Angela Bassett because they did the thing. Yeah. And so, like, I'm not. I'm not saying you do not deserve that money.

[B]

Oh, you do deserve that money.

[A]

But if we're talking about how Broadway can be so inaccessible because of its pricing, the fuck are we doing here? Like, do you need that $2 million profit? I mean, obviously, if you can get it. That's how capitalism works, right? Now. If you can charge it and people are willing to pay, you do the fucking thing. Same thing with Music Man. But there are other shows this season that are struggling, and they would rather have 200 empty seats in the theater than sell them at $40.

[B]

There we go. Now, that's. I completely. I think that that is a brilliant thing that you. Just because we've painted ourselves in a corner by making these tickets so prohibitively expensive.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because we've also. Then in capitalism, it's like, if you don't. If you're not making more money this year than you did last year, then you've failed. And that's like, you're doomed. Cause it's just gonna balloon and balloon and balloon and balloon and balloon. And you're gonna feel like you're poor when you're still richer than anyone could have imagined you could be 20 years ago in this industry.

[A]

It's why I hate the fucking break in headline news is news on Playbill and Broadway World, where it's like, such and such broke the house record for this year. I'm like, you didn't sell more tickets than a show from 40 years ago. You're just charging 30,000 times more for the ticket.

[B]

Yeah, I completely agree. Like, what if. And I think it would just take a break. It would take a brave, brave soul to be like, fuck it, 40 bucks. The whole thing. But guess what? We're sold out. And now everyone's talking about it and that, like. Like, again, there are. If you're gonna close anyway, try everything.

[A]

Well, so, okay, if you look at the grosses that just came out this week, we're recording this on a Tuesday, everybody. For the Thursday launch, you look at the grosses. There are some shows that have higher capacity but way less money. And obviously some. You know, actually, what? Fuck it. I'm gonna say, let's do it. Say it you look at the grosses this week for Kimberly Akimbo and Some Like It Hot, right? Something Hot had a major jump of like 100k, which is great, right? Kimberly Akimbo, I think, was something around like 70k, something like that. Kimberly Akimbo had more. Had a higher capacity this week than Something like It Hot and in fact, has had a higher capacity for its entire run than Something Like It Hot pretty much ever has. Something Like It Hot is in a theater with about 800 more seats. So its grosses are always just naturally higher, but they have been filled to like 60 to 70% capacity for months now, whereas Kimberly Akimbo has been like, consistently 85 to 95%. Because the producers of Kimberly Akimbo are just like, we gotta get to the Tonys. And it's like, anything it takes to get. But in the seats. If that means papering, if that means going on TDF and people like the show are talking about the show, I am biased. I like and see the shows, but. So I think that is far more effective producing than just sort of sitting there with your arms crossed and be like, well, we're only going to do TDF for the balcony of the Schubert. Because God forbid we, you know, let people who are poor come see our show. Jeez.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm like, just get the fucking butts in.

[B]

Get butts and seeds. Because then it's word of mouth, right? Especially right now with Tony's coming. And you want the New York community, right? Like, it's like, New York has to love you in order to be a hit first. It's like, you need to have the local be like, oh, my gosh, you have to get in to see.

[A]

That is what gets the tourists in 100%. If New York. If tourists come in and all of New York is like, this is what everyone's going to see.

[B]

Because they're asking their friends who live here, they're asking, you know, it's like, I'm in town. It's like, so and so. It's like, what should I see? I get asked all the time, what should I see? What should I see? What should I see? And right now, like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna be able to pitch you the shows better than a poster can.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so you must be a New York darling. And you can do that by doing exactly what you're saying, by getting New Yorkers to come see your show.

[A]

That's the thing that Shuck has done. And they. It's very. I've Said this before. It's very deja vu from something rotten. Starting previews with very low prices. Just getting sold out houses and getting New York to talk about.

[B]

Yeah. Yes.

[A]

And that is. And they're.

[B]

It works.

[A]

It's working for them now. Yeah. I mean, we'll see how long it lasts because again, it's Broadway. How long does anything last? But it's working right now. And that's the important thing.

[B]

Yeah, it's great. Yeah.

[A]

We love to see it.

[B]

I know. Absolutely.

[A]

And on that note of positivity, let's take a break. Hey, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah.

[B]

You're an arrow collar.

[A]

You're the top.

[B]

You're a Coolidge dollar.

[A]

You're the nimble thread of the feet. And we're back. So the new development after the WGA said no waivers. Which they said it just like that. They say no waivers. Any Sherry Mooney waivers. Yeah, it's the way Carol Channing says raspberries.

[B]

My favorite. I heard for the first time about the raspberry story about like why she says it.

[A]

Yeah, I read that too. Explain.

[B]

Do we. Do we agree or disagree?

[A]

Do we buy it?

[B]

Do we buy it? I love the idea. Apparently. So she says raspberries and it's very weird and out of nowhere. And apparently it's because in the script it says that the white queen blows a raspberry.

[A]

It's a Thoroughly Modern Millie.

[B]

Isn't that.

[A]

Oh, excuse me. It's mostly a Thoroughly Modern Millie.

[B]

Sorry, I've got it. I've got it confused with jam tomorrow. Jam yesterday, but never again.

[A]

And yet you call yourself an ally.

[B]

You know, I gotta say, I'm proving myself to be a bad one in this moment. Forgive me, Carol Channing Stans, but the.

[A]

Fact that you're not looking good one. So just so you know, continue.

[B]

But the fact is that it was written that she blows a raspberry and she didn't know what that meant, so.

[A]

So she just said it. Yeah.

[B]

Which is delightful to me.

[A]

Well, so my assumption is, if it is true, it was like at the table reading. You know, she got the script and she was like raspberry and said, keep it. Keep it. Yeah. Which. Listen, there are crazier stories about Carol.

[B]

100%. Yeah, I buy it completely.

[A]

Some. That she has said herself. Have you ever read the book Nothing Like a Dame? No. Should I? Oh, yeah.

[B]

It's a glowing endorsement of.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's good.

[B]

Okay, great.

[A]

But Carol, I mean, Carol's is. She's dead now. So it's kind of sad, but at the time, it was sort of, you. You're entitled to die.

[B]

She worked hard.

[A]

Yeah. She got to a very old age, but she was. I guess she had found out, like, a few years prior that she was like 1/50 African American or something like that.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Yeah. And the interviewer was talking to her about it, and she's like, well, I guess that accounts for my musical talent, Carol. Yeah. And then. And then he was like, well, what do you feel about drag queens impersonating you? She's like, I don't get it. You're impersonating Dolly Levi. That's not me. And I go, girl, you are you in everything you do. You are you. You are just you, everything.

[B]

And that's what makes an iconic star like that. Is she just floating? She's floating through life. And we're like, do this now. Yeah, now. Do this.

[A]

She's.

[B]

You're our toy.

[A]

She's Ms. Vanjie. Yeah, she's. She's the Ms. Vanjie of Broadway actresses 100. Yeah. Like, I can't tell you what you're doing is craft, but it's compelling.

[B]

No, it's compelling. It's like. Yeah, I completely agree.

[A]

But so, yes, I. To quote Carol Channing. Yes. The Raspberries. The Raspberries. Anyway, they said, no waivers, and there we are. And so then there was the whole, like, well, will the Tonys happen? Right? And then yesterday they said, well, we've now got a new clearance, which is just that with. They have the league and the Tony committee has agreed to make some concessions. And we don't know what those concessions are yet, but they were enough for the WGA to say, we will not picket the Tony Awards.

[B]

Huge.

[A]

Yes. It means that anyone who's attending is no longer crossing picket lines. Right. Which is. Yeah, no one. No one's going to be like a scab. Which is great.

[B]

Which is great.

[A]

But that is. People have mistaken that headline for we have a Tony Awards now. That is not what is being said.

[B]

Tell me, what do we have? We.

[A]

Well, it's just one less hurdle, okay. Because even so, we have no writers for this telecast, which means there can't be any banter. There can't even really be copy for Tony categories being presented. Producers can sort of write basic filler on the day. I'm pretty sure we had a similar situation in 1988. Okay. There was a writer's strike at the time, and that was the year of into the woods and Phantom. And from what I understand, what they did in that ceremony was producers kind of wrote very, very basic copy. Okay. On the day. Great. And there was no rehearsal. There was just.

[B]

Fine.

[A]

It was on the teleprompter, and people just had to read it, like, in the moment.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And so that might. The concessions might be different now, but that is what it was at the time was, you know, anything that's being written and said there's no rehearsal for it, you just say it live on telecast. Which. Okay.

[B]

Fun. Here we go.

[A]

Here we go. Here we. Here we go. Geraldine.

[B]

Can't wait.

[A]

Yeah. So maybe it'll be this, a similar thing, or it could be that there's no copy whatsoever, maybe. Because I believe one of the concessions is no one can have a role on this telecast that would be fulfilled by a Writer's Guild member.

[B]

Got it. Right.

[A]

But on top of that, you know, if the Directors Guild is going to be in alliance with the Writers Guild and their contracts are coming up very close to the telecast map, maybe even, like, right before, really, there could be directors on strike, and therefore there might be no one to direct the ceremony.

[B]

Gosh. It's going to be a total shit show.

[A]

Yeah. Well, this is just. This is just a what if.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So anything. You know, we don't. Again, we don't know what the concessions are. We don't know what they're planning. But also, knowing the Broadway League, no one's coming up with smart ideas right now.

[B]

No.

[A]

This is Charlotte St. Martin. She of the. Well, swings. Go on. And audiences are disappointed.

[B]

Oh, God, I can't believe that that's a real thing.

[A]

I know.

[B]

That actually happens.

[A]

People are disappointed by the understudies. And I'm like, ma'. Am.

[B]

Ma'. Am.

[A]

Sutton Foster, Archer McDonald, Kelli O', Hara, Victoria Clark. All understudies in their youth. Yes. Who's ever been upset by seeing them on stage?

[B]

Nobody ever.

[A]

Not in the history of ma'.

[B]

Am. It's tough. It's really hard. It's really hard when this innovation that we need is gonna come from the experienced youth in the industry, and the experienced youth in the industry is almost never in charge.

[A]

No.

[B]

And so you're absolutely right. Like, this time when innovation is so needed, we, I don't necessarily think, have the leadership that's capable of stepping up and doing that.

[A]

Yeah. And this actually mirrors one of the things about the writers strike that's happening. You know, we have. We have youth that's passionate and intelligent. And cares and wants to come up with all these ideas, but they don't have the experience of leadership yet to like make those creative decisions right now.

[B]

No.

[A]

Which is that.

[B]

Or they're not in the seat of power to be able to do so. They've got a lot of big ideas, but they're not in the driver's seat.

[A]

Yes. But our current generation of leadership is not making room for those younger generations to come in and start learning and absorbing so they can make those decisions. Right. Which is one of the things in the Writers Guild that they're striking about is a lot of writers are not getting the experience of a writer's room of producing on set of all these things you're supposed to do while working on a television show or on a movie so you can learn. So you can learn. And so they're, they're making a very quick buck that they, that only lasts them so long. But they're not actually gaining the experience they need to gain for a prolific career.

[B]

I think that that's absolutely brilliant. And yeah, we're not grooming, you're not actively mentoring people and going, look how it's done. This is, remember, this is how you succeed.

[A]

Yeah. Because the thing is, and I've, I've talked about this like with Gen Z and shit is, you know, I love the passion of our younger generation politically and socially. I think that's amazing. They do lack a little bit of real world experience to know like how to put, take, put into effect their passion. And like this is the change I want to see in the world. Great. How do you realistically make that happen?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because once you get put into a position of power and you see how limited so many avenues are, it's harder to make that change happen. But that's again, you need that experience to know that.

[B]

Right. And, and it takes that partnership across generation. Right. And I think that that's exactly, exactly what we're missing is like people who are going, we know how to do it and we're in charge here. And don't worry, we've got this as opposed to from a position of authority, reaching out and taking and taking ideas, having conversations, facilitating, getting the inspiration from the youth and then applying your know how from years of experience and finding the best possible answer.

[A]

Because at the end of the day.

[B]

It'S a team sport.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is one ecosystem. I keep using that word, but it's like we in such an individual based. I can do this ego, Ego town. We can't do it alone in an Ego system in an egosystem.

[A]

Sorry, I had to.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

I love it too.

[B]

It's great.

[A]

I'm pleased.

[B]

In egosysm. It's adorable.

[A]

Bada bing, bada boom. She's a writer.

[B]

But we must, but we do live and die by each other. I need you to succeed so that I may succeed. And I hope that my success brings success for you as well. And I don't think that we have. That has been what our industry has thrived on in the past. But clearly with Broadway, you know, you know, everyone's saying Broadway's dead. Broadway's dying. It's always. It's always the thing. It's been dying for 100 years. But we must then invest in this thing together so that we may all thrive.

[A]

Yeah. I don't think Broadway's dying. I will be perfectly honest, and I will say I think Broadway has become a little less special. There was a brief and another reason why the Tonys are slightly getting extinct and also why the whole system needs to change. It's also just like the work that we've been putting out there, which is all perfectly fine. Very little of it is truly exciting on a national level. There was a brief moment in the. In a couple years ago. It was the double whammy of Hamilton, followed by Dear Evan Hansen. Yeah. Where two musicals on Broadway were in the national conversation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With songs that were making it onto the radio. And we were going, oh, theater is now back at the.

[B]

We can do it.

[A]

Yeah. We're in the pop culture zeitgeist again. Fantastic. And then we kind of let it slip through our fingers.

[B]

Well, I think Covid came and killed.

[A]

Us before COVID though, like, because after the Evan Hansen year was the SpongeBob Band's visit. Mean Girls year, which we have. We had Mean Girls and Frozen doing financially well. We had Band's Visit, which was a critical hit, and was able to run a year and a half and make some money. None of those shows, though, were of the Evan Hansen Hamilton. Here we go. We have a.

[B]

No, I completely agree. But also, I don't think it's. It's. It's realistic to be like, every year you're gonna have the. Because even in.

[A]

There was. In the golden age. There was every year.

[B]

Every year, non stop. You're right.

[A]

Yeah. There was something. And not even just like the. The conversation we're having from this show, but more just sort of like, everyone's excited about this show, even if it's something like the fucking Music Man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Everyone was excited about the Music man and I, and it just. It's a. We're going. We'll get back to Tony's in a quick second. But it's all part. It's one thing. It's one giant Aurora spider woman web. But, like, there's so much good that has come out, but not in a way where it's. And I'm gonna blow smoke up PJ's ass again. In the way that you do. Like, vital information, compelling, you know, political stuff in a way that is accessible. There's so much right now where I'm like, this is really interesting and very smart. It is so not accessible because you. Because the people involved are so smart. They're not thinking about an audience. Right. And then the people who are thinking about the audience are like, I want to put absolutely no thoughts into the audience's head. And then we get confused. When audiences treat shows like it's a Vegas striptease, I'm like, well, if you don't. If you want audiences to be engaged with you and treat you with respect, give them a show worth respecting.

[B]

Right. I think you're touching on something that I. That I'm very passionate about, which is just like, who is it for?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It needs to be for the people in the audience.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You need to have a show for them, and you can write a show for you, and that's great, but you have to know that it's gonna be inaccessible. You need to do both. You need to do the magic trick of writing the thing for you and then reaching out and planting it into the audience's brain. And you can do both. And when you do do both, you have the greatest hits of our industry.

[A]

Yeah. And we've had some of them. I don't want to be like, it was only good back in the day. First of all, neither of us were alive back in. But we've had some. I just. I wish we had it a little more frequently. And there's. And it's. Listen, there is no one answer, right?

[B]

No, absolutely not.

[A]

It's. Part of it is. We are not. There aren't as many avenues to hone creativity. People aren't given as, like, because of the ecosystem. Of our ecosystem.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Love it. Writers don't have as many opportunities to try and fail. It's sort of like you.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

Like, the number of times Sondheim failed before he succeeded.

[B]

Oh, I think about this all the time. It's. We don't have. We have. The stakes are so high now. Like, one we're not taking creative risks. Cause what if it fails? It's cost us, like, millions and millions and millions of dollars, as opposed to, like, a modest investment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And two, we don't have an off Broadway community. We don't have a place where I can go take a weird thing, put it in front of people, hone my skills, and then I'm ready for Broadway. We've got all these people who are, like, making their songwriting debut or Broadway songwriting debut on Broadway for the first time, as opposed to having a place in the city that actually you can make a living telling stories on a smaller scale so you can get good at it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then do it for the big, big bucks.

[A]

Yeah. The only thing we've had recently, and I'm so fucking thrilled that it exists. We have Titanique.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Well, so first of all, that is the first new work off Broadway that has, like, actually been a hit. Yeah. That's caught fire. That has caught fire. And it's, like, maintained its off Broadway hit status, which I love. Now, granted. And this is. I don't mean this as a slight to any of the creatives on that show, because I've. I have a review of it, and I say how baller that show is. They are. They do use a previously known work that, you know, everyone knows. Yeah.

[B]

So it's a part of the parody musical genre. It is the best of its kind.

[A]

And the thing they happen to be parodying is one of the most successful and iconic and recognizable movies of all time.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And so you have that sort of synergy of, you know, the movie and Celine and all that stuff. But the. If the show weren't good, it would not have taken fire like it has. They would have gone butts in the seats for, like, the first three or four weeks, and people would be like, oh, cool idea. And it's fine enough. But no, it is so inventive. It is so smart about how stupid it is that it has been able to maintain. And I wish. Of all the shows this year, of this season, I feel like everyone should just look at Titanique rather than anything on Broadway this season of just, like, knowing what you are, doing it to the best of your abilities, finding the right space, the right cast, embracing the weirdness and not getting too big for your britches and finding success in that mold of not going, like, well, we could always make more money. It's like, no, no. We are perfect right where we are, and we can maybe even, like, last longer staying here and not going bigger. Yeah.

[B]

I think so, too. And I think they know their audience.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They know it's a love letter to the people who are walking in the door.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're saying, hey, you guys are gonna love this.

[A]

And.

[B]

And they do. And then they tell their friends. And I think that. That I love everything you just said about. About learning from them, because again, it's. It's. It's teaching us and showing us in real time what works and what we want, what people are gonna get jazzed and excited about. And. Yeah. I love that grassroots feeling, that organ again. New York loves Titanic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, more than any other show in town, I think right now.

[A]

Absolutely. No, that is the show that New York has very much embraced over anything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think I talked about this on an episode recently of sort of. I had a guest who. He lives in Canada, and he was asking, like, what are the shows this season that New York has embraced? And I didn't even say Titani, because we were talking about the Tonys.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I was trying to be like. I was like Kimberly Akimbo kind of, you know, something like it Hot kind of.

[B]

Kind of.

[A]

Yeah. I feel like the only Broadway show this season that all of New York has been like, we love you is Parade. And before that was probably into the woods, but that's closed and done. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of what's currently running, I feel like Parade is the only show this season. Everyone's like, yes, Queen, we love you, work.

[B]

I've heard no bad things.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, listen.

[B]

No, like, object. No, like, you can skip it. Everyone's like, oh, yeah, Think about that.

[A]

Yeah. Well, so I wrote in my review about it. I was like, there's one thing that I would call, like, an artistic blemish. And I had people DM me asking what I meant and have you seen it?

[B]

No.

[A]

Are you. Are you going to.

[B]

I would love to.

[A]

I know you.

[B]

We're busy. Well, you don't think that I hate you. Don't do it. Can I talk about what I hate?

[A]

You can go first in a minute for sure. You don't have Wednesday matinees. You can go see a matinee. I know.

[B]

Exactly. But that's the thing is, like, I. That's my one chance to see every. In a month's time, I won't be able to hit every show before the Tony Awards.

[A]

Well, then I can tell you what. What's worth it. Okay.

[B]

There you go. That's why I rely on your reviews, which I love so much.

[A]

Hallelujah. But so There is one thing that Michael Arden does that I'm like, michael, that's. That's not a good choice. And unfortunately, you do it twice, but the rest of the time, it's lovely. And then there. I also have just. Yeah, it's fine. Make a strong and wrong choice. Make a choice. Make a choice, and then, you know, just be good. There's also. I have issues with Parade as a musical for. If you want to know those issues, you can listen to my Parade episode. But Parade is a good show. It's got the bumps as many shows do.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yeah. I think I can name on one hand the number of musicals that are just, like, impenetrably perfect.

[B]

100%. Yeah. I'm not asking you to be perfect. I'm asking you to be entertaining.

[A]

I love you. You're not perfect. So never change.

[B]

So never change.

[A]

And we're gonna talk about you and your show schedule in just a second. I don't remember how we got to all this. Titanic being weird. Oh. But I feel like I want. There's always the idea of, you need to have a thought. Two opposing thoughts in both pockets. I think about Sheri Renee Scott in Everyday Rapture. You know, I am a speck of dust, and the universe was created for me. And, I mean, honestly, that's always how I write my reviews, is I have something to say and I'm fucking nobody. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

I completely.

[B]

I. As a creative, I completely feel the same way where I'm like, this is me, and I'm an idiot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, if you want to listen to what I have to say and take it seriously, that's on you. Because I'm not taking it seriously.

[A]

No, I believe in what I say, but also, I don't believe in me. Well, shit, no.

[B]

I've got convictions, and I. And I have lived a life, and here are my opinions, but I am not God, and other people are smarter than me.

[A]

It's what I say about actors and writers. You know, take the work seriously, not yourself. Love that. Love that. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. It's like the shows you're working on, you know, give it your all, but never say, like, it's me. I'm. I'm the moment. It's me.

[B]

Well, and also, nobody's curing cancer. Here we sing and dance for a living. Hi. Anybody who listen.

[A]

Take your.

[B]

Take yourself seriously. Believe in the craft, but at the end of the day, to, like, zoom out a bit and see. See that we are a luxury industry that's providing A luxury service. And we are lucky to do what we do well.

[A]

Again, it's the. It's the two pockets, baby, because you do have that. We're not curing cancer, but we are creating something that can last and something that. That can offer a reprieve or a stimulant to someone who might be in a bad moment. Like. Like the garbage TV shows. You were. You were so graciously letting stupid America love and enjoy. And I'm like, no, death to them all.

[B]

Death to them all. Hey, listen, I agree. I don't want them.

[A]

I don't know. Yeah, I watch Great British Bake Off. That's right. That is my. That it's my cantoons. But so.

[B]

But I also, I would say before we move on from that too, but it's like, like, you can't. When you're holier than thou. I actually think you have a harder time making the thing.

[A]

There are creatives who are holier than I.

[B]

100%. I say to that, like, why?

[A]

Yeah, I think it's.

[B]

You're hurting yourself. I think you're hurting yourself.

[A]

Absolutely. If you think that you're smarter. For. Even if you are smarter, if you walk around going, I am smarter than the audience. I'm smarter than the people around me. I'm smarter than my contemporaries. It's like, first of all, you've got nothing to strive or prove. You're just. You're coming from a high horse. You always want. You're not reaching for anything. You're lowering yourself down for something. And no one ever wants to feel condescended to.

[B]

And you're also not collaborating then, because you're not gonna let. And. And this is it again, this is a team sport. You need to. You need to be reaching out and going, you're great at this. Help me.

[A]

Do you listen to the Office Ladies podcast?

[B]

No.

[A]

Did you ever watch the Office?

[B]

Yes, I have.

[A]

So Office Ladies, it's Jenna Fisher and Angela McKenzie. Oh, great. Angela Kinsey. Who are Pam and Angela from the show. And they're doing a deep dive rewatch and they bring people on what they talk about. What made that show so special was the show creator. And he made sure that this lasted even when he was no longer really working on it was the best idea wins. Doesn't matter who or where or when it comes. So, like, there are. There are all these classical moments from the Office that are a combination of someone wrote a scene and then on the day an actor had an improvisation and then like a prop went wrong. So the prop master did something else that made the joke better. Yes.

[B]

Yeah, 100%. And that's going to be. That is why you want. For me anyway. That's why I want to be in this business.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That I want to have your idea make me better. And then my idea is gonna make you better. And we'll ping pong back and forth, and we'll have this thing that neither of us could do without each other, and we'll look around and go, how did this happen? And go, well, it was a perfect storm.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And that's like time and time again. That's how these things come together. And it's. I am a social being. And we are. And we are social people. We want to be in a room together and make art. And we want to be in a room together and experience art.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I want to hear that lady with a weird laugh next to me and then be like, oh, my gosh, she's having the greatest time. I'm having the greatest time, too. And like, this is a great night out. I'm in New York City.

[A]

Well, and that's. And that's. That is what you're paying for with your theater ticket, other than, you know, making sure people have salaries and producers make their nut. But you are ultimately paying for an experience that won't be replicated.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Even though the show gets performed again tomorrow, it's a different audience. The actors on stage are having a different day than they were the day before.

[B]

It's a different cast because someone swung in, swung out.

[A]

Absolutely. But even if it is the same cast, everyone's having a different day. People are in different vocal health, mental health. So, like, sometimes you'll get, like, I saw a musical recently where someone optioned down on everything and it was fine, but then the next day, they optioned up on everything, and I was like, oh, I saw a very different show, even though it was the same actor. So you're. You're literally paying for an experience that will never happen again.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And people are not understanding that. They pay the amount that they pay and think they're entitled to the world. And they go on their phones or they eat or they talk, and I go, you realize you are actually robbing yourself. You Pay. You pay 200 bucks, and then each time you go on your phone or you talk to someone, you robbed yourself of $2.

[B]

Oh, more than that, I think. I don't know.

[A]

Because by the time it's over. Yeah, by the time it's over, you've lost all Your money.

[B]

I completely agree. And I think, well, one, that's just an attention span thing in our culture right now, which is absolutely terrible. But two, it's like, I'll see people asleep in the shell, be like, that's an expensive nap.

[A]

That is an expensive nap.

[B]

And again, and if that's what you want to do with your day and your money, God bless you. Come here. You sit down and you pay full price and you close your eyes for a while. We'll be up here entertaining the people in the back who really want to be.

[A]

Which brings us back to the Tony Awards. So as we said, no picket line. So no one's crossing the picket line. We still don't know what's gonna happen, but what I would like to see happen, and I've. I've bemoaned this for a while now, the Tonys keep trying every year to compete with the MTV Movie Awards with the Oscars, creating these things of like, see how cool Broadway is? Come watch the Tonys. And I'm like, you're never going to get all of America to watch. No.

[B]

Oh, God, no.

[A]

Make the Tonys for the nerds. Yo.

[B]

I feel the same way. I get on this high horse all the time. Like, what if we had a whole night that was just for us? Like, that was full of in jokes, full of references, full of something that. Where someone in middle America is like, I have no idea what's going on. But we love it. Yeah, we fucking love it. And we can't. It's must see TV for us. Cause again, it's like if we don't love. We don't love our own industry so passionately, that's what's gonna make people go, oh, I wanna go where they are. They all seem like they really are having a launches.

[A]

Other passion. Yes, correct. If you try to. Again, if you try to appeal to everyone, you're no longer a telecast. You're a wallpaper. But the idea for me is also. Yeah, and, and also just we're not honoring all the elements of theater anymore because we're trying to keep the Tony Awards within a certain time frame. And we want to, we want to get viewership. So it's like, oh, we've Jennifer Hudson sing from Finding Neverland even though that show isn't on Broadway yet.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And then we like put all the design categories off camera and we did the writing categories off camera because no one care. No one cares about best orchestrations. I'm like, kind of do. There have been years where they have shown like montages of design to show you, like, why costumes matter. What. Why scenic design matters. And they show you the nominees and just strictly the nominees, which I'm. I. That's the other thing. People are like, well, show as many people as possible. Like, well, if we have so much time, like, just show the nominees and show why they are nominated, why they're the best of the year. And like, if you look at the 2000 Tonys, which is the revivals of Kiss Me Kate and Music man and it's the Lachiusa Wild Party and Aida and Contact, they have these montages that show you all the designs before they hand out the awards. And it gets you excited about the shows you're watching. All these elements that don't normally get showcased. They do the same.

[B]

That are amazing.

[A]

Yeah. And they do the same thing with best score. They show like a montage of the writers for best score. And they have a moment where you see Michael John Lacuse is talking about, like, I'm always thinking about the rhythm of a song and he starts playing a rhythm on drumsticks and then the piano starts plunking out a note. And then they just show you Eartha Kitt rehearsing her number in the lobby of the Now August Wilson. And then cut to her doing it on the stage.

[B]

Full chills right now.

[A]

Yeah, full chills.

[B]

Full chills right now. And that's good storytelling.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That by the end, I go, man, I really. That I had no idea. I love Broadway.

[A]

Yeah. And gets you excited about all these other things that aren't just like high kicks and high belts. We talked about this with Peter Duchenne last week about like 93, 94, when they tried to do something similar with plays. It didn't work quite as well, but it still try. We're, you know, they showed four different best play nominees and it was, you know, from table read to dress rehearsal to final performance of each different one doing it. And I would like more of that, especially with plays which don't get. People go, why aren't people going to see plays? Like, we don't showcase them on the Tonys fucking ever, ever, ever. And it's difficult, but we should keep fucking trying.

[B]

I agree. And again, until we crack it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because if we just like let it die, we're letting have such an exciting arm of Broadway just wither when it. When it is so vibrant and valuable. And I love that. I love the idea of showing the process of it because so many people walk in and. And it's our job to sell them the finished product.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's cool to. That's a nice angle. I really. I really, really love that.

[A]

Thank you. Well, and that's sort of something that I always come at when I am critical of shows because I hate the idea of, oh, if you can't do it yourself, you don't get to say anything. I'm like, okay, well, if you go to a restaurant and your steak is raw, you don't. You should complain even if you can't cook a steak yourself.

[B]

Completely agree. But I think I trust you to be good at steaks.

[A]

Yes. I came here for a good steak, and you gave me rareness, but.

[B]

So that's how I like my steak anyway.

[A]

Well, I was gonna say raw, but.

[B]

You know, that's how I like my steak.

[A]

You like your steak? I like my steak like I like.

[B]

I like it.

[A]

Moving.

[B]

Anyway, continue. You're on a roll. I think. I think the Tonys. I think the Tonys again, have this opportunity to right now, if it is already in the. Can try something new.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Again, Diana. Me.

[A]

Go.

[B]

Go throw the biggest, biggest, craziest idea you have out right now. That's never been done before. Because why not? It's already dead. It's already on its. On its deathbed.

[A]

Well, and get people fodder for conversation when they go see a show and they don't like it and they can't understand why. You can give them tools to understand why. Here's the process of what it takes to make a show happen. It's a lot of work, and it doesn't always work out. And that kind of sucks.

[B]

Sucks.

[A]

But. And there's no. And there's no exact formula. So sometimes a show won't be good. And you can be angry at, like, the time you wasted, but you can't be angry at the creatives because they tried. There are shows where it is very clear that no one tried. And you only can tell if you see enough shows and you have that vocabulary of what it takes. And so I love that with the. With the play nominees, where you see the table read, to the final dress, to the final performance, where you watch the montage of the writers plunking out the notes and getting down the lyrics and giving it to the actor, and then everyone's trying to figure it out. And then, you know, seeing it on the stage and how it all works out. You know, Another great example is Patti LuPone gets I dreamed a Dream. And the lyric used to be like the melody line Used to be as they turn your dreams to shame and it just stayed there with da da da da da because if you notice, it's the same melody of Eponine and Marius in One Day more, One more day all on my own but the tigers come at night and she goes, but he never saw me there. And then she just. Just holds it as the music goes. Ba ba da ba da ba da ba da. Patty's like, so, you know, I used to be Evita, right? She's like. She's like, I've got. I've got range for days.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So she's like, you're wasting me. Yeah, you're wasting me. So why don't I just go up with the orchestra on that? And that's become an iconic scale. 100%.

[B]

Right? And again, best idea, one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And thank God.

[A]

Thank God. And that is something that I feel like audiences would be so having so much fun with because they're in on it. They're not just observing it.

[B]

I love that it gives them ownership of the experience and it makes them.

[A]

Be like, oh, I know that.

[B]

This cool thing about this. I love this.

[A]

If everyone's in on it, everyone gets to be excited by it. And let's make it about me for a quick second.

[B]

Keep going.

[A]

One. One may say that I wrote a play this year.

[B]

Great. Congratulations.

[A]

Thank you so much. Some of the best things that actually have come out of the last couple of readings I've done have just been, like, having friends who I respect, who are smart, and having, you know, conversations with them after each reading. It was just so good because I would say, like, here's what I'm trying to achieve. And they would say, great, here's where that's working. Here's where it was a little confusing. And here, like, you know, I. I personally, you know, was hoping to see a little more of this and. And, you know, just like, you know, off the cuff, like, what if this character said this? And I'm like, oh, I don't want them to say what you just said. But what you said has now made me think an idea to do. Yeah, exactly. And two of my favorite things I've added to the play came from conversations with my friend Ali Gordon and my friend Samantha Missell. And it wasn't that either of them were like, do this, but we were having a conversation. They were like, you know, you could maybe try this or this. I'm like, yeah, I could tried it and it led to something else.

[B]

Oh, it worked. Yes.

[A]

And of course, if that Goes to Broadway. I'm sure Samantha and Ali will be like, compensation, please. But that is to say, it was a collaborative process and best idea came.

[B]

To the next best idea. Exactly.

[A]

And I'm saying this on the podcast because when we get to the production of the show at some point, which, who knows, could be in six months, could be in three years, I think it's closer to six months. Between you and me, not to toot my own horn, but I hope that my listeners, if they go see it, they'll watch knowing how this process went, and they'll get excited watching it and, like, try to figure out what was collaborative, where it came from, my own personal life, what was my own imagination, and having conversations about it afterwards. That is what keeps theater alive 100%.

[B]

Because, again, if you. If a show finishes and then you're like, what's for dinner? And then that's the last time you talk or think about that show. That show has failed to me personally. I want. I want to then go to dinner and be talking about what I just saw for the next three hours.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

That's the joy of seeing something truly excellent.

[A]

And there are shows that are trying to be important and hammer home a message so hard that there's no discussion to be had. It's just super easy to know what the show is trying to. To say or what a character was doing. The shows that allow themselves to live in a more moral gray area and then also just try to lead with empathy through characters and storytelling rather than, say, tolerance. Good. And are more sort of. Here's a person who lives a very different life from you. Here is their journey. Did that maybe lead to some empathy today? Let's talk about it over dinner for three hours.

[B]

100%. Yeah. It's like, show me. I don't want to see people who I agree with all night.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I want to be challenged also. It's like, I want to see someone who I actively disagree with. And then. And then I'm gonna have an opinion about that. And it's. And. And again, it's like, I completely agree that if we're not gonna have art, that's just like, I don't know. This revival of 1776, where. Where we. We. It assumed its audience was all on the same page from the beginning, and it just was. If you're not on the Patreon, Matt has slid all the way out of his chair and is on the floor.

[A]

When I mentioned pretty much this revival anyway.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. It's just like, it I am. We are all. If we're all on the same page the whole time, I am bored.

[A]

Well, also, speaking of condescension, that was a very condescending revival to its material and to its audience. And also. But assumed that it was being brave because. And I did say this in my review.

[B]

Yes. I recall. I read.

[A]

He reads. I said something along the lines of. In that production. And I'm only saying this because people worked on that production who I've seen do amazing work. And so I. I'm saying this to hold them accountable to continue to do great work in the future. Yeah. The fact that I hated the 1776 does not take away from the fact that I love Diane Paulus. Hair and Pippin, of course.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Or that I hated her Finding Neverland.

[B]

No, but. But that's. You're allowed to make those mistakes. And I think that that's fantastic. I love watching someone who's objectively fantastic. What they do have it not come together.

[A]

Oh, I had. I'm gonna. I have to finish.

[B]

Finish this, and then we'll come back.

[A]

But. So there's a. There are many moments in that revival where actors would look out to the audience and say something very like. And now I'm saying the decorative political statement. And R. And I. Brave. And I'm sitting there going, you are sitting in a subscriber house in New York City. 95% of this audience is Democrat or liberal or progressive. The other 5%, if they are Republicans, they are fiscal conservative, social liberals. You are not changing anybody's mind by shouting I love purple to a room filled with people wearing mauve. And it. It's an echo chamber.

[B]

Yep. 100.

[A]

And you're not hearing applause. You're hearing the echoes of people patting themselves on the back for agreeing with your political statement. And no one's getting challenged.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Even if it's something that I agree with, I'm like, no, but challenge my ideals. Like, make me really have to defend why I believe what I believe.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because maybe something will come along that will make me go, you know, I always thought this was the case, but now that I'm seeing something from someone else's perspective, I can see why what I think might be hurtful to someone else. Because there's no. No one has objectivity, really.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's. It's all just. My experience is my experience. And therefore, that is the world. Yes. And with theater, especially when it's the stories of queer people. It used to be that queer audiences were so Excited to have a queer story told. When Terrence McNally wins the Tony for Love, Valor, Compassion, the gays go insane. When Angels wins, both years in a row, they go insane. Now when a queer story is told, all the modern gays are like, that's not my journey. That's not me on that stage. I don't. I don't like it problematic because that's not what I went through. I'm like, it doesn't have to be.

[B]

Yeah, no, actually, it's actively not your story. It's the story we told.

[A]

Yeah, it's the story we told. Not every gay or every bisexual or transsexual or transgender or fluid, whatever, pansexual, asexual. Not every character represents the entire community. They are just a person, and they are fucked up like everyone else.

[B]

And it's through that individuality, through fully being themselves, that hopefully it can speak to a universal. When you were then speaking to the masses, like 1776 was doing, that's when it gets like, what are we doing here?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As opposed to, like, really honing in on an opinion and shooting it for that target. It's like, we're gonna hit every target. This gets me back to Jack of Old Pill, which I found to be like, the. Every. It checked every box of every Hot Topic issue. And I'm watching and the whole thing, I'm like, and now it's about this, too. We're gonna have it be about everything.

[A]

And you are undermining all of those issues by giving each of them six minutes.

[B]

Pick one.

[A]

Pick one. Pick one and explore it. Yeah, and explore it.

[B]

Put it back together and see it from every angle. But see one from every angle. Or maybe. Maybe two. But if you're like, eight. Eight different topics.

[A]

I am.

[B]

I am. Like, it is part After School Special. It is part, part rock concert. And I am. And I'm tired.

[A]

And you're. And you are becoming the cartoon version of yourself that your enemies believe you are.

[B]

Yeah. Damn.

[A]

You know, it's just so. It's so stupid.

[B]

It's hard. It's all done with best intentions, right? It's like. It's like. And then this is. Because this is important. And it's like, yes, all those things are super important, but you're doing yourself a disservice by having the aperture be so wide.

[A]

And. But this. This is what we were talking about earlier, where this kind of stuff. We know it doesn't come from a bad place, but how can your work get better if no one's holding you accountable if it's all just everyone holding hands and saying Kumbaya. Well, and then fucking then do we all forget the goddamn drama that went into that show? Jackie, Little pill after Covid, when they reopened after lockdown and, like, cast members were coming forward about mistreatment and not feeling heard and in a show that.

[B]

Was like the most inclusive show.

[A]

Yeah. And listen, I'm sure I. Then there was a lot of, you know, they said, they said. But the idea for me is if it was an environment where people could openly express critiques that they had or things that needed to be said or done and felt like they were being heard and everyone was really doing the best work possible rather than just, like being silent the entire time.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The vitriol they had after the fact with all these stories coming out would maybe be a little less intense, a little more sort of like, hey, not a great experience for me, but like, we move on. Or like, I would like to say my piece and then, like, we'll talk about it for a minute and then move on. But instead it was just like, no, I need to say this now. And I say it intensely, and it's because of so much repression.

[B]

Yeah. It's like scorched earth. It's. It's scorched earth liberalism.

[A]

Also on this note, let's take one more break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah.

[B]

You're an arrow collar.

[A]

You're the top.

[B]

You're a Coolidge dollar.

[A]

And we're back. So we were talking a lot about, like, this, the Broadway world and the systems of it all. Dot com. Yes. And, well, this all comes back to the Tonys. And as, you know, people were. This leads to a larger conversation.

[B]

Right. It's only the beginning. It blows us open to a very complicated industry. Yeah.

[A]

The idea of the Tony's not happening, then says, well, what does it say if we. If every show needs the Tonys this bad? And what it should be is that the Tony should help. It shouldn't be a make or break. You hear these stories about shows that turned their fortunes around because of the Tony Awards. Right. Usually it's because they win as well as have a good performance. Yeah. And that is. I feel like this thing that people don't really think about is they go, oh, well, if you win a Tony Award, you could run for a year. I'm like, well, no, no. If you win a couple of Tony Awards and you do a really good job on the telecast. Yeah, yeah, that'll help.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But again that's sort of where we talk about like how do we build a platform for shows that they can succeed without necessarily Tony love and also don't need to run three years at capacity in order to make profitable. Yeah, exactly. How can a show run for a year and a half, make its money and then peace out.

[B]

And that is what I really want to get back to.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like that's the dream that like a show could. Could come in. There could be a lot of turnover. Right. I dream of when it's like there's all these new shows and then they're here for a while and gone. And they're here for a while and gone. And it's not like you don't have to make it 10 years in order to be a success. And unfortunately I feel like that's where we are in the business model right now. That's so heartbreaking because it means that it's all or nothing. We don't have an opportunity to just like have a functioning again. I keep saying ecosystem, but it's like it's. It's a coral reef of shows that are here and there and you're meant to have a community and catch someone who did a show for a little while and then they're able to hop to the next one. It's like nobody's hopping from show to show to show.

[A]

No.

[B]

Like the trope of the chorus member who's in this and then in that and then in this and was in six shows in the past six years. That is dead.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's not how it happens anymore because we don't have the frequency of production and then there's just the turnaround and we're not. What is a cinema success has just completely changed. I really long for the days of a show that can be splashy and fun and short lived and not a total disaster.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that possible anymore?

[A]

I think so, because every now and then we do get one or two again. We have like a fun home or a band's visit that comes in, runs for a year and a half, makes a profit. Not a huge profit, but a profit. A profit recoups, recoup, does well, goes on tour, makes wins their Tonys and then heads out and then he's gone. And then it's gone. Yeah. We don't get a lot of them, not as often as we used to, but we do sometimes get them. The other problem is now there is, as you said, like there is this weird feeling by the community, by fans Especially that has warped a perception of what success is if it's not running for 5,000 performances. Oh, what a devastating loss that is. And I'm like, I have said this before. I want to say it again. I don't mean to yuck anybody. Yum.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But you only have so many hours on this earth, and there is so much content to absorb. And I do understand something you do love at a deep level, wanting to see it as much as you can. I saw Fun Home six times on Broadway in a year and a half. It was on Broadway for you. Thank you so much. But I. While seeing it those times, I also made sure to see as many other things as I could. I get a little confused by people who come to the city twice a year or once a year or every two years, and they just go see their favorite show that's still running. It was something that really bothered me about Phantom of that fandom. One could call it an emo system.

[B]

I hated that. I really hated that.

[A]

I loved it.

[B]

I objectively did not like this ecosystem.

[A]

Ecosystem. Emo system.

[B]

More that.

[A]

Yeah. Of just the. This is the thing I love. I support it wholeheartedly. I know everything about it. I go.

[B]

I've seen it a hundred times.

[A]

I go see every new cast member, and I'm like, that's not I. For me. And again, I'm not trying to be super judgmental. It's just. That's for me. That's not the boastful brag that you think it is.

[B]

No, I agree.

[A]

I'm like, how do you not want to expand your experiences with new shows, with new works, with new actors? Fall in love with the new show. Fall in love with a new actor, and you can come back to the show you love. If you are allowing yourself to go out into the world and try other things.

[B]

I completely agree.

[A]

And let it be the thing that.

[B]

Made you fall in love with the art form.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let it be the door. Right? It's like. Like, I. So I'm in the Book of Mormon, and that is a gateway drug for so many people's Broadway love.

[A]

Yeah. And I.

[B]

And I say all the time, why it's running and why it's still so popular is because you can bring boys to Broadway. Sure. You can bring your dad or your boyfriend. I meet all these dads and boyfriends at the stage door, and their partners or daughters are like, this is their first Broadway show. And they've got stars in their eyes.

[A]

And they're like.

[B]

They're like, it was amazing. It was fantastic. And then guess what? That partner, that girlfriend, that daughter is gonna go, great, you loved Book of Mormon. Now let's go see Moulin Rouge.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they'll go, sure. I love Broadway. And it's like, that's a good audience member. I want someone who's gonn fall in love with your phantoms, have your favorite show, but then let it be like, what else is out there? Like, become the explorer who can then just love Broadway and learn about your tastes.

[A]

When people say I don't like. People say, I don't like musicals. I'm like, there's. There's a musical for everybody. Yes, there absolutely is a musical for everybody. Anyone who says they don't like musicals, I say, you will. Like you're in town.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

Yeah. And. Or like, you know, the south park movie. Just there's.

[B]

Yes, you do. You like musical.

[A]

Yeah. Everyone likes stories.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And told in multiple ways.

[B]

Everyone likes music.

[A]

Yeah. It's part of your fucking body chemistry, idiot. But you learn more about yourself and your taste the more you see and the more you like and don't like. And then you can start curating what you see in the future based off of, you know, I really like this writer. So the next thing they do, I'll go see or like, you know what, I know that there's a lot of buzz on it, but I haven't liked the person who worked on this. And like, the last, the last thing we saw of theirs, I didn't really like. Let's maybe skip this one.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

That is a. That is an educated, curated decision to make rather than just sort of like, I don't like musicals or, you know, I don't know, like that we're going to see the thing that we are aware of. Like, we're going to go see Pretty Woman, the musical, because we all know the movie Pretty Woman. I'm like, well, do you know anything about the people working on the show? Because it's possible you won't like the show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or if you just go see something because it's, it's the thing you knew, but with songs added, you're gonna be.

[B]

Thinking, man, remember the movie Pretty Woman? I love that movie the whole time.

[A]

Kinda. Yeah. Or if you're just watching and be like, oh, I love how it's exactly what I remember about the movie, then I go, okay, when was the last time we read a book? Yeah, I agree, that is where I'm being a little judgmental. But you know what? I think I'VE earned that.

[B]

I think so too. I also think that you, you know what you're talking about. You can have your opinions because you've done the research.

[A]

I've done it before. And I fucking love all different kinds of things. I don't love everything, but I love all of things. I love that for someone whose favorite musical is Carousel, I literally just.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

Well, that's awesome.

[B]

I love that. Like, I really enjoy that you are an opinionated person, someone with so many hot takes. And I love that your favorite musical is such a controversial one.

[A]

Well, yeah, because people who don't get it or, well, they're not stupid. They just have not taken five seconds to think about it. I literally was just listening to True Crime Obsessed and they were talking about Barney. There was a whole documentary about Barney. And apparently in the 90s, I don't remember that. This. The violent anti Barney people like a lot of straight white men who got very violent about how much they hated Barney. And it's these guys who don't look inwards on the things in their life that they have no control over that's making them upset, that's making them angry. And they take it outwards and they cause damage. And I'm like, that's literally the messaging of Carousel is when we don't actually give opportunities of a helping hand to people just because they are a cisgender man, heterosexual man. And we go, well, you can't be drowning because the world is made for you. And then they go, well, I don't have actual problems then, so why am I sad? I guess I'll just take it outward then. And then they end up killing themselves and leaving their pregnant wife to deal with the pieces in the end.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is what that show is about. People go, well, he hits her. I'm like, yeah. Yes, he does.

[B]

Because you're seeing a complicated person doing complicated things and you're supposed to have an opinion about that.

[A]

Yep. And once. And it's someone who is literally at rock bottom doing awful things because they don't know how to get out of it. And no one is helping them because everyone is saying you're bad because you did a bad thing.

[B]

Man, I'm sold on this. Yeah, yeah, you're selling me. Listen, I always like Carousel, but that's. This is actually. This is hitting me in a.

[A]

That's what the fucking show is about. That's really great when you just treat that show or any golden age musical with, well, the score is great, but the book is bad. And you don't cast actors, then it's just. That's what it's gonna be. It's why I hated the last revival. I'll talk about it all the time. In fact, I said, you know what? Fuck it. If you know me. You know what I was talking about last week when I was telling Peter Duchan that a Tony winner for best choreography in the last couple of years was a Tony winner that I hated because they did. And it was Justin Peck for Carousel. They did blow high, blow low on the Tony Awards. And that is a number that is filled with sailors, working class sailors, most of whom have either raped or killed or robbed. And so how does they. How do they choreograph that number? Like a bunch of power bottoms doing a Hasty Pudding show. They choreographed it. They choreographed it. Pj like it. Two by Two in Book of Mormon. And that choreography for Two by Two works because of the tone of that show and who those characters are. They haven't seen the world yet. They think everything's a Disney movie. Those sailors in Carousel, they do not dance like that.

[B]

Right? I remember that performance. I remember being like, I do not want to see this show.

[A]

Everyone in Carousel is working class. They're sweaty and they're tired and they're horny. So why is everyone dancing like they've gone to the School of American Ballet? Use ballet as a tool, but you have to make it character and story based. That's what. PJ, go on YouTube. Watch my video of the. Of the 1994 carousel with Audra and Sally Murphy. You love it. I swear to God, you'll love it.

[B]

I'm in.

[A]

More importantly, Michael Hayden as Billy Bigelow. He does everything that I told you that character is.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But this conversation we're having comes from two people writing a show about complicated people and not saying to the audience, here's the message, but rather going, what do you take from this? Yeah.

[B]

And it's not going. We're not commenting on the fact that he beats his wife.

[A]

Like, hits her. He hits her. Beating implies that he's done it multiple times. And I only say this because this is a change Oscar Hammerstein made from the play. I love that in the play, Lilium does beat his wife. And Oscar Hammerstein makes it a point to change it to once. Because if it's. If it's better, if it's repeated, it's a pattern. If it's once, we're catching someone in a. A very awful moment of their life.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And rather than anyone other, the Only person who's like, he is in pain is his wife. And no one's listening to her because they're like, you doormat, why are you staying? And she's like, you're not like, I'm trying to help him and no one else is helping me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she's also kind of like on this path to, you know, combustion. And she sort of gets her own comeuppance from staying around someone because she's so empathetic. She's trying to be with someone she cares about rather than being self preservating. And so she's left devastated. The show's moral at the end is a helping. You know, anyone can be redeemed if they're willing to ask for help. And also, the only way you can help heal others is if you don't worry about yourself and just lead with kindness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For example, the way that the show ends, Billy's dead. And he's told you, like, you. He's literally told you left your pregnant wife on earth. You. She now has a teenage daughter who's super fucked up because all of that town knows what a bum you were and they won't let her forget it. Go to earth. Fix this. And what he. First, it's like, because if you. And they say, because if you don't, you will go to hell. So his mind's just going, fuck, I'm. I can't go to hell. I get. I get a star. I'm gonna give it to my daughter. And she doesn't know what to do with it because some random dude you've never met before is like, I knew your dad hears a star. So she freaks out. Rightfully so. Yeah. And he's freaking out like, I'm gonna get fucking eternally damned. So he hits her because he's like, time is running out. He fails. And then he realizes, oh, he sees Julie come out and he sees the devastation he's caused, which is. That's what the whole. It's possible for someone to hit you and not hurt. That. That line isn't Oscar Hammerstein going, if someone loves you, them. Them hitting you doesn't hurt. He's showing someone who is now basically numb because of all the forgiveness she has had to give Billy in her life. But she's been left with no answers, no closure. So she's a shell of a person. Billy is seeing this. He's realizing finally face to face, the damage he's done. Like we were saying, the conversations that you have with people are better than just pontificating and he then goes, okay, I can't think about me anymore. All I can do is try to give my wife and daughter some piece of something to move on from. I have to close out this circle of toxicity, this carousel of toxicity that I left behind.

[B]

Oh, God. Oh, my God.

[A]

So he gives his daughter from beyond the grave the ability to let go of some of the pain she's inherited from him by listening to the hopeful words of the preacher and accepting the helping hands of the people around her. And so she's able to pick herself up and no longer define herself by the awfulness of his past. And the thing he gives Julie is the knowledge that he did love her. His final lines to her. I loved you, Julie. Know that I loved you. And that is what she needs. Because he died with her never fully knowing how he felt about her, only what she felt about him. And that has haunted her for 16 years. And him giving her that closure allows her to close that gap and finally move on. And that is what gets him into heaven by actually helping the people that matter most to him and not thinking about himself for once.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

All right.

[B]

And that is roll credits.

[A]

Roll fucking credits. But you want to know something, bj, People? That's not actually said in a giant.

[B]

Show, busy, glittery number not told to you.

[A]

And so people don't have the conversation. They go to Instagram and they go, want to hear a problematic line? And I'm like, you're not taking context into account 100%.

[B]

You're looking, seeing the whole picture and why. That was the perfect moment for the story.

[A]

You're just in it for the meme. There's a line that Hammerstein has in there where he is just repurposing a line from Lilliam, which is when Louise says, oh, he hit me. And I didn't feel it. It was almost as if, like, he had kissed my cheek or kissed my hand. Right? And everyone goes. So people always miss misquoting. They go, he hit me. And it felt like a kiss. I'm like, no, no, it's. It's Molnar and Hammerstein poorly saying, of course it didn't hurt. He's a ghost. He's translucent. That's literally what they're saying.

[B]

That's so funny.

[A]

That's all it is.

[B]

If you take that out of context, it is way worse.

[A]

Yeah. And it's. It's just bad poetic writing. So I would cut that line, the kiss line, not because I have a problem with it emotionally. I'm just like, That's a fucking dumb analogy.

[B]

And we're not getting the point.

[A]

It's like.

[B]

It's muddying. It's muddying.

[A]

Yeah. Just say it didn't hurt and we would know why it doesn't hurt because he's a fucking ghost.

[B]

It's so funny. And that gets into just the issue of taking things piecemeal and being. And. And out of context.

[A]

This has nothing to do with the Tony wars or anything.

[B]

I know we went a whole. We. We did a whole big carousel loop, which I love.

[A]

But we also. This goes into how the conversations we were talking about that people aren't having, people then define themselves by the politicalness of it.

[B]

We're in a soundbite moment. We're in a time, like you just said, where it's like everyone's working really hard to be the person to call someone out, to be the person to really find the chink in the armor and be like, well, you thought this was a good thing. Actually, it's bad.

[A]

She was way eventually bad. Right.

[B]

And. Which is like, you know, if that's the moment we're in, fine. But I think we all can agree how detrimental that is on several levels.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm. The thing. The difference between what I was saying about, like, fans, you know, going to see Phantom a million times. Listen, I have my issues with Phantom. Essentially, that is a show about a horny incel who gaslights and kidnaps the only virgin left in Paris.

[B]

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly it.

[A]

Pretty much it. And it.

[B]

And people were like, fuck, yeah.

[A]

People were like.

[B]

People were like, that's so goddamn hot. I don't know what it was like in the 80s, but they fucking loved that shit.

[A]

Lindsay Ellis has a great take on it, and it's her favorite show, and I appreciate it. Like, I think that show only works works if the Phantom is never actually treated like a romantic prospect. He is someone who is terrifying to her. And she ultimately, through her own kindness, dumb kindness, gives him a moment of human connection which allows the wall to break, and he realizes just how awful and manic and evil he has been and allows her to leave. She chooses, right? In the end, Raul's a bit of a fuckboy, but he at least doesn't murder or kidnap or gaslight.

[B]

We ask so precious little from our men these days.

[A]

Exactly. Well, he gaslights a little bit, but we ask so little. So little. Raul does not murder. He does not nearly rape.

[B]

See, he's a good guy. Yeah, I didn't even do any murdering. Babe, no.

[A]

I've got all my hair and the skin on my face is still there. What do you want from me, perfect man?

[B]

What?

[A]

You tell me that you've been terrorized and you want me to believe you? Please.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

At least I didn't kill Mobody. But. But, yeah. My point is, is that I am less about denying people their joy and more saying, like, cool, let's find more joy. There's so much else out there, and it makes you appreciate the things you love all the more, you know, but.

[B]

You have to be shown. I think Broadway can be inaccessible. I think it takes. I think. And this is why I love what you do. And I love people who are in our position who are gonna talk about the art and get you excited about it. Because it's like, I love going to the museum and having a tour guide, because I think I get. I walk into the Met and I'm overwhelmed. There's every great piece of art in the world, and I burn out. I get, like, museum fatigue. I'm lost in Mesopotamia and I'm hungry. I gotta go. Whereas every time I go to a museum, I go to someone who knows this place and loves it and then says, come with me. Let me show you the best parts. And then I have ownership of. I'm able to go. I don't know what I like. I don't know what this is about. Teach me what's cool about this thing, and you will leave a fan forever. Like, I. And every time I take a museum tour or have someone show me around moma, I'm like, oh, my God, I love modern art. And I think that that's what the Broadway fans are kind of missing, is someone or people who can go, oh, this show. Come with me. Let me tell you why this is such a great musical. Let me tell you, like, how it was made. Guess What? Like, Patti LuPone, she had an idea. And, you know, like, you telling me more about that, I'll never. I'll never listen to. I dreamed a dream the same way. Because it takes your love of it to inspire love of it it to me. And I think that the big lights and the posters and everything, it can be cold, even though it's trying to be so warm, even though it's trying to grab your attention. You kind of need someone who's gonna go, oh, my gosh, don't look up Kimberly Kimbo. Don't look up anything about it. Just come with me to the theater and let's sit down and watch it. Trust me. You're gonna love it, and that's gonna create a lifelong fan, because otherwise, you might just be keep seeing Phantom over and over and over again because, you know you like it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you don't want to be disappointed.

[A]

Yeah, it's tough. You know what they say. Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll create a fan account for fishing on Instagram.

[B]

That's great. Thank you.

[A]

Hugh Panero told this story when they were doing Sideshow, and, you know, they were. They were always just constant danger of closing. They lasted three months, basically, out of the producers being like, we're trying here, but no one's coming. And it got to the point where, like, everyone in the cast, including, you know, Alice, Emily, Hugh, Norm, like, would go to Times Square at tkts and, like, hand out flyers and, like, come see our show. It's really good. The Times liked us. And he was having this conversation with a woman who was online. She's like, oh, where? He had to see Cats. He goes, oh, yeah. Like, if you're. If it's your first time in New York, you're like, you gotta see Cats. It's an institution. She goes, oh, no, we come every year. We always go see Cats. He's like, oh, well, maybe this time you want to see our show, See something a little different, you know, if you've seen cats 10 times. And she goes, I like Cats.

[B]

Are there cats in your show?

[A]

Are there cats in your show? No. No, ma'. Am.

[B]

And I don't want.

[A]

I don't want to see your show. I don't want to see a show. You mentioned conjoined twins. Are there leg warmers involved? You mentioned bleaches. A song called Freaks. Is it done on a levitating tire? If it's not done on a levitating tire, I'm not interested. I'm not interested in your show. No. Anyone you try to go see who loves Phantom? You try to get to see something else. They go, does anything fall from the sky? No. Then, no, ma'. Am.

[B]

This holier than that thing.

[A]

But they.

[B]

But because they've taken an ownership of the show, they have gone. That's. I've learned that that's quality.

[A]

Yeah. Or they make it their identity.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

That I can't get on board with.

[B]

I mean, either. Yeah, it's. It's definitely. No, please. You're about to pivot.

[A]

No, I'm saying, on that note, what do we think is gonna happen? This is perfect.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. On that note. What do you think is gonna happen? I think we're. Well, here's the thing. Let's get back.

[A]

Tony warts.

[B]

Here we go. Thesis statement about Tony Ward. I don't care about the intro song. I don't care about the bits in between. I care about getting production numbers in front of eyeballs. Middle America.

[A]

Yeah, that's it.

[B]

I don't even care about the speeches. It's really nice. I want everyone to be able to have their moment in the sun that they've dreamed of, to get that award and to thank their mom and to.

[A]

Look into the camera and cry.

[B]

That's amazing. But I care more about a night that showcases the variety of what we have to offer in New York City. And you should book a trip and come like, that's. I would prefer if we said we don't need any writers to meet make this show. We have well written numbers across Broadway from shows that are brand new this year and have been running for years. If we are running short and we need more material, guess what we've got. We've got. We can ask the Lion King to come in and give us something. Come across the stage and give me a bit of a song. Something that's running. We can blow up what the Tonys have been and have it be a showcase of not just everything that's new, but everything that's still here.

[A]

It's supposed to be a celebration. It hasn't really been one in a very long time. It's now just a commercial and it's trying to just compete. It's very, how do you do, fellow kids? And I'm like, we blow it up. Make like the. Make it like the last five minutes of Slave Play. A play I didn't like very much but had a great five last five minutes. Burn the institution of it down to the ground and have it rise anew. And from there you will have a healthier foundation that will last a lot longer.

[B]

Couldn't agree more. Have fun. Have it be something that's like, I can't believe they're doing this right now because you already are fucked. Like, you're already. This already is going to be a devastatingly different year. So lean in. Go. Go all the way.

[A]

Now's the time to be Diana strong and wrong.

[B]

Strong, wrong. Yeah.

[A]

Like make it.

[B]

Or at least just be entertaining.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We've got. No, we have the most fabulous, like, performers and material in the world all in one place. Let's have the best idea, win and make the coolest, best show while still respecting our writers, while still holding on to an industry that is. That is constantly dying. Like, we can do this because we are problem solvers, because we are inventive, and we've been reinventing the wheel and making magic for over 100 years in this town. We can do it in this moment to propel us to the next level.

[A]

Theater has been around for thousands of years, and it has still survived all other new mediums of entertainment, and it is still here, which is why I have no fear that it will stick around. We have to do our part and help feed it, help nurse it.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And it's also not just the Tonys. Like, if you listen to any podcast, like the Grammys or the Oscars, fans of those mediums often say, like, stop trying to make TikTok and just, like, be for the nerds. Because. Because the nerd. The passion of the nerds will lead, will spread out to more nerds. And like, people always just love to be on the inside of something, to learn more about something and go, like, oh, I'm now in the know about this. Yeah, it's always a fun thing. Yeah, That's. That's all it.

[B]

Make it fun to be here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the shows, the Tony ceremonies that do the best are when. Shows that are doing well, you know, all over the world are the ones that are up for awards. That year when it's a Hamilton or Dear Evan Hansen or like, the year of Phantom was like, a very big year for tonight. Tony's. Because that was a show that people were interested in. Tell me about this show. And I think it's. It's. Again, it comes from all different areas. We need to create things that excite people, stimulate them and also excite them. Entertain, but also make them question. Right? Yeah. Don't give them definite answers. Give them stuff to explore. Make them look back on themselves and go, what have I learned about myself from this experience? Have I learned anything? Have I just been purely entertained? Have I finally got through reprieve that I needed today? What does even. What does that say about me? And. And let that passion translate to the Tonys. Oh, that show I loved this year. I want to see what they win tonight.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And. And. And see the people who make it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I love your idea about, like, the rehearsal process. And, like, I want to see how much fun it is to be in Shucked.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I want to know what it's like to be in that cast. I want to know what's, like, in that building. I Want to know. It's, like, not just on the stage and in the show, but what it's like to do this show eight times a week. I think that that is the future of hooking an audience on Broadway is making people fall in love not only with a story on stage, but the stories of the people who live this life, because it's all so interesting. And that can be like, everyone wants the novelty. And if the Tonys could be like, hey, this is the showbiz, but come behind the curtain, right? It's like, I love in the award shows and the Oscars or whatever, when you see the people who are, like, waiting to go on, I'm like, that's the party. I want to be back there. You know, like, stop giving me. Like, I know you can do polished, but, like, let me in on this world that is so interesting, that is so vibrant, that is so diverse. And then by giving me a peek of that, I. In middle America, go, man. What's it like in New York City? Because we're selling New York, right? We're not just selling Broadway. We're selling this metropolitan city that we're in. And you're gonna come and see Times Square, but while you're here, you're also gonna, like, see the Statue of Liberty, and it's gonna be a part of this vibrant city. And I think that every time Broadway has partnered with the. The city of New York and said, you know, like, the whole I love New York campaign, and it has worked like gangbusters, and I think now more than ever, we. We need not just what it's like on stage, but what it's like to. To do this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For a living.

[A]

Yeah. The whole world of it. Yeah. It's cool. And again, I want to say the designers, the directors, the choreographers get people who are watching to understand what it is we're celebrating, what it is voters are voting for. Why would. Why does this show get best choreography over? This show, to me, it looked like that this had more dancing. It's like, yes. But how was the dance being used in this other show? Like, I mentioned it a couple times. Like, the. When Once won best set design of a musical, it was a very shocking win for a lot of people. And, like, I would have loved nothing more than if we had a montage that year where we showed all the different set designs and showed how Bob Crowley set for once, even though it's just kind of a unit set of a bar, how the flexibility of how it was used and what made it Win.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But people, they only see like the three minute clip of the performance and then they'll see you know, again Jennifer Hudson singing from Finding Neverland. So they don't know that I can't believe that happened. And inform. Information is power. Right. And even if you, you cast it out there and of the like 4 million viewers, only 100,000 care. That's still 100,000 people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And those hundred thousand people can spread it to another 100,000 people.

[B]

And those hundred thousand people can be repeat viewers. You see Phantom a hundred times. It's like you don't know.

[A]

You don't know, you don't know who.

[B]

You'Re hooking and then who they'll bring along.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

This is an interesting thing that I've been actually finding that since I've, since I've come into the show. I started Book of Mormon in August and now it's May. So it's been like a fun little year. But I've had so many people be like, oh, I have not seen it in a long, long time. And it's really cool to be able to have these friends and people who I respect who caught the original company when it was on fire to then come back and like see a show. It's a rare thing that long running shows get to enjoy which is like the repeat viewer that isn't obsessed with it.

[A]

Yeah. And I had such a grand time. But I would like to see it again. It's been 12 years.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Come on by.

[A]

I'm old Rose and Titanic and all.

[B]

Those people who are like, you know, I've never seen it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's because it cuz it was a hard ticket to get 12 years ago and then. And that's cool too.

[A]

And because you guys aren't going anywhere anytime soon. There is, there is a. Well, yes, sure. But listen, as we've learned, everything has an expiration date. It's just a matter of when. But you know, you're doing strong right now. So there is like the sort of taking for granted like well, it's not going anywhere. Like what's my rush? I'm like, well, I don't know, no day. But today is. You know, Mimi Marquez once said.

[B]

Yeah, I completely agree. I definitely think it's important to catch the new shows, the flashy things that need them, but also to come and see and remind yourself, oh, this is out here for a reason.

[A]

Just expose yourself to as much as you can. That is just always what I'm down for. Even if you're not sure if you're going to like it. Sometimes you get surprised. I said it two weeks ago. I was blown away by how much I enjoyed this current production of A Doll's House. Did not think I would really.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

Well, because I've heard great things. Well, yeah, I heard great things too, but I also heard maybe not great things, but it just. It gave me very Evo Van Hoffe vibes. And as I said before, I want nothing more than to put that man on a raft and send him out to sea. But this is where social media is a lie. Because according to social media, that play is nothing more than Jessica Chastain sitting in a chair spinning round and round, baby. Right round.

[B]

With a single tear cascading down her face.

[A]

Yes, it is so much more than that. That turntable doesn't always turn, by the way. And she's. It stops. It stops at times.

[B]

I gotta go.

[A]

Yeah. And moves all the time. I think it's even a two part turntable. And. And she even gets up from her chair at one point a couple. A couple of times before she does the famous walk out. It's.

[B]

No, I. I found spoiler to Ibsen's adult.

[A]

I know, right? You want to know how Hamlet ends.

[B]

Oh, fuck, don't tell me.

[A]

Everybody dies. That was me being.

[B]

I think Hamlet's problematic because he kills his.

[A]

You know, I think Hamlet's problematic because it's not kosher.

[B]

Yeah, let's cancel Hamlet.

[A]

It's anti Semitic because it's not kosher. Cancel Hamlet. Something wrong in the state of Denmark. That is rude to the Danes.

[B]

I love this too. It's like people who are like, this is a problematic show. It's like every good piece of theater that has lasted throughout the ages has been so problematic. You're watching problematic people deal with problematic situations and we are entertained by that. Please.

[A]

I also sit there and I go, okay, tell me how. Like really go through and tell me. Not that, not that. As you said, I am watching a complicated character do a complicated thing, but rather I am watching something that is politically telling me something that has aged poorly and thus should be erased. Because if you can do that. Props to ya, mama.

[B]

Good job.

[A]

If you're. All you're saying is that I'm watching something that makes me uncomfortable, I go, great, let's hone in on that. Why does that make you uncomfortable? Does that remind you actually of a time in your life when you were shit to someone else? Because I guarantee you, none of us have a Clean track record. Some of us have maybe more messy track records recently than others. But the point is no one is perfect. No one has had a perfect track record.

[B]

No. And if your track record is perfect, you're probably boring and shouldn't be making art.

[A]

Your wallpaper. Your wallpaper.

[B]

And I don't care what you have to say, cuz you have nothing important.

[A]

Make like Violet Beauregard and get licked. That is what I say. Cuz they licked that wallpaper in that movie. They do.

[B]

It's true. And it tastes like schnberries.

[A]

Yeah, let's try to schn. I'm trying to think anything else? We. We talked about the Tony.

[B]

It was a far reaching conversation.

[A]

First of all, that's how this podcast works. This is how you know PJs only looked at my Instagram and not listen.

[B]

That's not true. I have absolutely listened to your podcast. I listened to your Phantom episode because I found it closing and I went, well, I should be doing more research about Phantom of the Opera.

[A]

No way.

[B]

And so I went, who do I trust? I trust Matt.

[A]

Hallelu.

[B]

That.

[A]

That was a very.

[B]

Boom.

[A]

Yes, thank you very much. I. I read for filth that that actually is a very exposing episode. I talk about a lot of my teenage demons in that show. Not in that show in my life that relate to that show. But that was a, that was actually a moment where I had not. Speaking of Mormon a long running show. Phantom of the Opera had not thought about it for a long time, did not delve deep into it. And I was like for this episode I must. So I did. And I was like, oh, didn't remember that this is exactly what this story is and how the mirrors have mirrored. And maybe that's why I'm so hard in it. But I don't care. That is my.

[B]

Good for you. It's your opinion. It's about, it's.

[A]

It's also my journey life. But that's also the thing about theater that's so exciting is let it be your opinion who you. But who you are on the day that you see that show will actually influence how you feel about that show.

[B]

Yeah. And it should.

[A]

Yeah. And. And you know, that's again, that's what makes it such a beautiful, thrilling and sensitive thing. No bootleg will capture the energy of a show. No professional recording will fully capture the energy of that show. Or you being in the, in the theater watching it for the first time or for the third time. It's every, every how you feel about a show is dependent on your journey, when you come to it. And then when you come to it again.

[B]

Right, I've got a question for you.

[A]

Yes, sir.

[B]

Which feels more on topic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We keep being sitting here on our high horses saying, well, the shows shouldn't need the Tony Awards. They should be doing things that get them publicity. That isn't just the Tonys. What should shows be doing?

[A]

Well, first of all, I'm not sitting. I, maybe I did say this. I don't know. It's. We've been talking for a very long time. I don't think we were saying, you know, in a, in a, in a judgmental way. Show should be doing that. Don't rely on the Tonys. I think we were just talk. We. Things we were talking about was just, you know how there is. It's an outdated model and we're all aware of it. Right. And it's just. Now the conversation is, as you said, what do we do? Yeah, first of all, just fucking ticket outreach.

[B]

Ticket outreach.

[A]

Affordable tickets to students, to low income households is just getting, getting word out there in general.

[B]

Word out. Butts and seats.

[A]

Yes. Word of mouth is huge in that respect. So get butts and seats. Get people talking about it. You just need to get social media, any kind of TV outreach you can do, no matter what, get people to fall in love with your actor so they then start watching the show. Couldn't agree more. Get as many clips of your show out there. You know, I would love it if plays would do this more. I've just like 45 second out of one scene of a very compelling scene.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like what's happening here and how does this end? And then.

[B]

Or like, like they do that in the Oscars where it's like, you know, you're gonna get a clip of a performance and you're gonna go, oh, fuck. That was nominated for best actress.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She looked like she was really acting. I gotta go see that show. You.

[A]

If you are producing a Broadway show, you need to. I think what something that Schuck did very intelligently was they put into the capitalization of that show money. So they could lose money for the first couple of weeks of previews and early performances of just like we are getting butts and seats. So we were doing very cheap tickets below our running costs. It's built into our capital and then also building into your capital, just money on marketing in general. Just get it out there. Get the, get the title out there.

[B]

I love the Shut campaign.

[A]

It's great. It's similar to something Ron where it didn't really tell you much about the show, but it just. It was a bold campaign, and it was. Was everywhere.

[B]

Everywhere. Although I still think there should be more. Corn's really easy to buy. I don't know why I'm not tripping over corn cobs on my way to the theater.

[A]

This is true.

[B]

It's like, I just literate about.

[A]

I say, pop, pop.

[B]

Continue. So what else? I agree with you. I think you need to make them. You need to. I think that shows should be making you fall in love with both onstage and offstage. I think that offstage is something that should be being captured and the rehearsal process should be being filmed. We should be having, like, this should be something that. It's like. It's coming. Look at us. We're putting it together. It's almost here.

[A]

I think that there should be a. A blend of giving you a lot and giving you nothing at the same time. Show clips of the rehearsal process all throughout major moments and then start retreating after that.

[B]

Of, like, fun.

[A]

Showing you only little pieces.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Once it's in the theater, once it's on the stage, I mean, think about the Phantom loadout. We all have been seeing that loadout on Instagram and the process of it. And, like, watching that set get deconstructed and watching that theater get loaded out. We are all mesmerized. Reverse that for your show.

[B]

I completely agree. That's an absolutely fantastic business model.

[A]

Thank you very much. But also, we're not marketing people, so I want to put into the hands of people who I. I have friends who have been on this pod who are in marketing. Yeah. Who. They've got ideas. Let them have ideas.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

You're out.

[B]

Yeah, I totally agree. I think. How do you feel then, about, like, the live capture? How then do you feel about.

[A]

I'm super down for it.

[B]

Me too. I think it's. I think, again, because, like, I think everyone's really scared when it comes to live captures where it's like, well, if they can see it in a movie theater, then they're not gonna come in person.

[A]

Not if the product's good 100%.

[B]

And I think that, like, Hamilton, you know, really dispelled that rumor where it's like, you know, my mom can't wait to come see Hamilton because she's watched it so many times in person. This. But this is Disney.

[A]

But also not even that. Thinking about how it affects the original run of your show is just thinking too small. Think about what it does for the legacy of Your show overall. You're wearing a fucking Diana T shirt right now.

[B]

Yeah, I am.

[A]

People are still making videos of Diana. Think of the original video of into the woods and what that video has done for the livelihood of that show.

[B]

That is, that is the, the real, the real ace in the hole when it comes to this argument, which is like it's beloved because kids could grow up on it and kids can't. You can. You can pop in a tape for an eight year old who wants to watch it over and over and over again. And you can't take that same 8 year old to Broadway night after night after night if you live in Minnesota. No, like, I completely agree. I think we are way behind the times when it comes to getting cameras in theaters. And I think that we are filming everything at all times in every other industry. Why has Broadway left so much money on the table by not doing.

[A]

Because it's expensive up front and no one's thinking in the longer terms. That is. And, and, and not everything needs to be captured, but it's just captures some of it.

[B]

We're cap. Well, you're. You're just missing so much money. Like so much can be done.

[A]

I am devastated that we do not have a live professional capture of Fun Home on Broadway. That show would be. That would be winning prizes at Cannes if that were filmed professionally the way that Spike Lee filmed Passing Strange. But like. And that's a show that did not do well on Broadway. It did not save the Broadway production, especially because he filmed the last three performances. But it's on YouTube, it's on streaming services. People know of that show. I am convinced.

[B]

And have the opportunity to then fall in love with it again in a way that they never would have and.

[A]

Gives it regional productions that I don't think it ever would have if that film did not exist.

[B]

I completely agree.

[A]

Yeah, it's. And it's the same thing with cast recordings. Right? Like cast recording.

[B]

Every show needs a cast recording.

[A]

Yeah. In order to survive. Because it's just. Even if your show flops in its original run, it will live on with that cast recording and get people excited about it. No one is doing Mac and Mabel all over the world because they had heard once that it flopped. They listened to the cast recording and they go, I love this score. I want to do it.

[B]

Yeah, that's exactly it.

[A]

That's exactly it.

[B]

I don't know why we don't have more TV shows that are capturing how a Broadway show gets made beginning, middle and end.

[A]

Because they tried it Was smashed and it sucked.

[B]

I know. I don't mean smash. I mean a documentary crew that literally does this. Okay, here we go. It's day one of rehearsal all the way through to opening night. And that's, again, that's a big flex. Cause what if it's a total flop? But guess what? That's tv.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

You're gonna have people who fall in love with Broadway because they've seen how amazing it is, and by the end of the season, you know, they're crossing their fingers to see if it's a hope like that right there. If some production was brave enough to do that would be revolutionary.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Would be incredible television. And I would then be like, that's a reality TV show that I will watch. Because now I am. You're giving me the pulp that I want. Because Broadway is dramatic, but it's still educational. It's still exactly something that I want. And I. I don't know why that hasn't happened yet. I want someone to do it.

[A]

I. I feel like people are afraid of giving the milk away for free or whatever that phrase is.

[B]

More is more.

[A]

Yeah. Buy an account. You can get the milk free.

[B]

That.

[A]

That kind of thing. I think that's. Yeah. I'm like, I don't know. Again, it comes back to what we're saying with the Tonys of, like, let people in. Make.

[B]

Let them feel like people fall in love with you.

[A]

Let them.

[B]

People fall in love with you.

[A]

Let them get in. If they get invested in you, they will follow you, and they will tell other people to follow. And that's all you need. Just get people to talk about you, get excited about you, invested in you.

[B]

And again, let people see your passion. Let people see your genius. Let people see, like, again, it's like, what's happening in that room? It's like, oh, they'll steal it. They'll never steal it because they're not you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, let them copy and try. And again. It's like, I think we. It's this gatekeeper mentality of like, oh, this is. You can't see how the sausage is made. It's like, no, let's show you this process, and that will inspire a generation of other writers who go, oh, that's how they did it. My God. It's like. I think that's why we love the. You know, it's why we love the documentary of the, you know, the company cast album being made. It's like, we're like. We can't get our eyes off of this thing. It really, it's. It's inspiring to a whole. To generations of artists who then are like, oh man, it is a little messy, man. I can kind of forgive myself a little bit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I don't know. I think that that's. That the secret needs to be letting us behind the scenes.

[A]

Absolutely. In every sense. Inside, outside, behind, under, in front. Get all over me. That is what I want.

[B]

Rain on me.

[A]

Rain on me. Okay, so I think this is a good moment to start wrapping things up.

[B]

I think so too.

[A]

Before we do the official wrap ups, we have two reviews that we need to read. Oh, please.

[B]

Oh, this is fun.

[A]

We always read them. So I will be adding this in post, but I always ask my listeners for more reviews. Ratings. 5 stars. Helps with the algorithm. And I got two new reviews since last week's episode and I would like to give them their due. Cue the Light in the Piazza Overture music. Five stars. A delight. Written by Beth and then in parentheses, not March. Thank you for that. This is the only podcast for which I get genuinely excited when a two or more hour long episode shows up in my feed. I always find myself laughing out loud and talking back when listening. Matt is a delightful host. He doesn't hold back on sharing his opinions, but he's never mean spirited.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Listening to Broadway Breakdown has helped me fill in some holes in my musical theater knowledge and helped me figure out why I like what I like. I'm so happy I found it. Beth, we literally were just talking about.

[B]

This is exactly it.

[A]

Yeah, this is it. Review number two, the best podcast around. One star. Five stars. As someone who lives in Philly, I often travel into the city to catch a Saturday matinee. A trip to Broadway does not feel complete with. Without an episode of Broadway Breakdown to accompany me on the train home, Matt's wit and insight into the theater world is the best travel companion this boy could ask for. Thank you.

[B]

That is beautiful.

[A]

I've got some fucking great listeners.

[B]

Really great.

[A]

Every now and then they'll write something specifically to make me giggle. They'll put in like a Sally Murphy reference or a Kimberly Akimbo reference or a Smile reference. Because I love smile.

[B]

That's great. Yeah, I really love that. I'm so glad that your work is so fulfilling.

[A]

I mean, in this moment, it's fulfilling. I'm gonna go home tonight and I'm gonna cry myself to sleep. Because with the highs comes the depressive.

[B]

It's important to talk about that too. And I think that this is another thing that people are desperate for is be like, they want in a business that pays you to be on all the time for people to be real about what that life is like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it is hard. And I don't think we should be afraid of allowing people to see the struggle and the weakness and the, like, how the fuck am I gonna do this? When it comes to presenting a product that we want to be perfect.

[A]

Absolutely. And. And to. To constantly go on about, like, not only wanting the positivity, only showing the good. Let's not trash other shows. Let's not wish for shows to close. I'm like, first of all, you know, the people who are trashing her wish, pushing ill on other shows, or people who are not in this to know how hard it is, but you can still be in this, know how hard it is and still say, this experience I had on Broadway was not good, or I had a great experience, but the show we were in was not very good. I. I have come to know a few people working on Bad Cinderella, and they are having a ball, but they know the show's not good.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

And that's totally okay.

[B]

Isn't that beautiful?

[A]

It's one. I think that's a wonderful thing to do. Would you rather be in a show you know is not good, but it's a wonderful experience than to be in a show that is so artistically fulfilling but that the experience has. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Has been rough.

[B]

Yeah. Yes.

[A]

It's a question.

[B]

Yeah. I think that. I think that in a.

[A]

In a.

[B]

If you were lucky enough to have a long career in this industry, you will find out both of those. Yeah. You will. You will be like, man, whoa.

[A]

Because I have another friend, won't say who won't say what show, but they were in a show in, let's say, like, the last five years. Make it a wide net. Because I really don't want people to find out. Was in a show that was very well received, did well in every artistic sense. And, like, they had highs with it, but there were a lot of backstage lows. Just like, interpersonal, emotional in their own life with co workers in the collaborative process just, like, was very, very rough and draining and not always great for them as a person, but the artistic outcome was good and perceived by everyone as good. That's fascinating. Yeah.

[B]

That's interesting.

[A]

Yeah. And neither. And neither thing cancels out the other.

[B]

No.

[A]

They are allowed to have been devastated by events that happened to them working on that show, while also saying, I was lucky to be employed to be doing something that I thought was good, that was artistically fulfilling, that this is.

[B]

All importante, that's the business that's really cool. And even then, it's like you can go for miles talking about what it's like to be in a new show. Like everyone was in dad, Cinderella, and like their life, you know, every day it's like, okay, we know we're gonna wind down. And so like the backstage is full of these highs and like this bittersweetness. And it's way different than the temperature of what it's like to be in the Book of Mormon, a show that's been running for 12 years. And, you know, people are comfortable. What happens when performers are comfortable versus what happens when performers are crossing their fingers and toes and hoping to make it to the Tonys? That's a really different. Two very different experiences a block away from each other and doing the exact same job. Yep. And I think that's a cool thing too, that people would like to know about.

[A]

When there's something to prove, there's a lot you can gain.

[B]

Mmm, mmm. Go on, say more.

[A]

Which isn't any artistic endeavor. We were talking this earlier about writers who are very smart, but then use their platform to show how smart they are because they think they're better than everyone else. When you are reaching for something scrappy. Yeah. When you're reaching for something, you have the ability to achieve something. When you are lowering yourself to something, even if it turns out okay, that's not an achievement you have, you have been gracing us with your presence and. Yes, exactly. That is as tasty as a dust covered candy cane that is 12 years old. You know, that is, that is all. I mean, but it's the same thing with performers too. Like, you know, if there's something to prove for you on that stage, the, the outcome is great.

[B]

I, I, There you go.

[A]

I've said this before as well. I know for a fact that at the revival of Color Purple, that was a cast packed to the ceiling with incredible talent. And there was a little bit of resentment backstage that not everyone was getting their flowers. And rather than have that destroy any, you know, kind of camaraderie, because they're, first of all, they're professionals and good people. They're not gonna do that. But they're like, okay, tonight I go out there and Spielberg's gonna discover me. And so again, rather than be resentful, they go out there and they channel into their performance and go, I'm going out there with everything I Have and someone's gonna notice. And I am going to get 10 new fans today. Let's go. And as a gay boy who saw that show three times and got pregnant every time, I benefited from that cast going out there and be like, it is me.

[B]

And put. And like, just here to do it. And that ownership of their talent and that, like, again, again, like, going out there to achieve something. Not going out there to collect your paycheck.

[A]

Yeah. To grace the audience.

[B]

And you can tell. You can feel it when you're watching the show. Who is in what mindset?

[A]

Oh, yeah, I have. I have seen it quite often. What it's depressing is when it happens early in a run when someone gets too comfy too soon. Especially when it's been.

[B]

But God bless him, isn't that the dream? To get comfortable?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

That's the other side for me. I'm like. From like. I'm like, good for you. You've worked so hard. Get cozy. But. But you better keep giving me the sauce.

[A]

Get comfortable in your life, not in your art.

[B]

That's. They say that again.

[A]

Get comfortable in your life, not in your art. That.

[B]

I'm putting that on. T shirt.

[A]

That's another trademark merch, baby. Do it.

[B]

That's the fucking word I say.

[A]

Make.

[B]

Make it merch. That's fantastic.

[A]

I'm gonna make it.

[B]

Put that on a sticker. I'll buy it.

[A]

Yeah, take. Take your work. Take the work. Seriously. Not yourself. Get comfortable in your life, not your art. You heard it here. Bam, bam, boom, boom. Call me Alexis Mateo, cuz. Bam.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

All right, pj. Yep. This has been delightful.

[B]

It's really nice. Thank you.

[A]

A new friendship has been born.

[B]

Yeah, I think so.

[A]

Tell Justin Mendoza that he's been replaced by you in my life.

[B]

Oh, fair. I can't play the piano.

[A]

Can he? No, Both he and his husband can. Very well.

[B]

Very well.

[A]

It's very stupid, it's annoying. But where can people find you? If you want them to find you, please find me.

[B]

You can find me on Instagram and TikTok and everywhere else at pjadz, which is short for PJ Adzim. And you can find me at the Eugene O' Neill Theater in the Book of Mormon playing Elder McKinley eight times.

[A]

A week, he turns it on to turn it off. That's right. If you know what I mean.

[B]

That's right. We keep that bar high, baby.

[A]

Yes, we do, baby. If you want to follow me, I am on Instagram only. Koplik. Usual Spelling Facebook is for family only. Again, if you like the podcast, give us a nice 5 star rating or a little review. The ones you guys have been sending lately have been baller. Please keep sending them in. I. I love everyone's creativity and their earnestness with these reviews. It's been just a dream and they've been keeping me from crying lately. So thank you for that.

[B]

Always important.

[A]

Yes, there is a Patreon. I will actually link it to this episode. I keep forgetting to do that because I actually haven't updated the Patreon in a few months. But I'm gonna start doing that now. So. Yeah, that's it, pj. We close out every episode with a Broadway diva. Honestly put in post. We are now at the stage where we're just getting to, you know, repeats. So I want to ask you, what Broadway diva would you like to have us close out today?

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I mean, Bernard Peters really came to my mind, but I'm sure people say her a lot.

[A]

They do, and I usually turn them down. But because you're an ally and you've been doing the work, I'm willing to let. I'm willing to give you Bernadette.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, we'll close out with Bernadette. Great. So catch us next week, guys, when we have a old friend of the pod. Come on. And we're going to talk about our favorite path past Tony Award performances.

[B]

I can't wait for that one.

[A]

It's gonna be a good one. And that'll be it for now. Yeah. So thank you so much. Have a great week, you guys, and take us away, Bernie.

[B]

Bye. Should have said Carol. Channeling.

[A]

Oh, go yourself. I want to do a die in.

[B]

The middle of the river. All the thunder. All that thunder in the park with don't move the mouth.