Alessandra Gordon (1:59)

You know, do you think there's a possibility that it also had to do with, like, the movie and that it was like, Doubt a Parable is the play and Doubt is the movie, and they're similar, but not the same, honestly.

Matt Koplik (2:10)

Kind of. Maybe. Because when you look up doubt online.

Alessandra Gordon (2:13)

Doubt the movie comes up. I know.

Matt Koplik (2:15)

Yes. You have to write down a parable to get the Wikipedia page for the play.

Alessandra Gordon (2:18)

So. So. So maybe.

Matt Koplik (2:20)

Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (2:21)

Like how it's like moonstruck, parentheses. A parable.

Matt Koplik (2:25)

Moonstruck, A parable.

Alessandra Gordon (2:27)

A warning.

Matt Koplik (2:28)

Working girl, A fable.

Alessandra Gordon (2:29)

It's just.

Matt Koplik (2:30)

And we should just start adding those tags to all of our favorite things. Just.

Alessandra Gordon (2:35)

I. I mean, John Patrick Shanley actually didn't. What's it called? Have a. Have a subtitle Outside Mullingar. Didn't that have a subtitle too, did it? It was like a fairy tale. A fairy tale of the real life Something outside Mullingar.

Matt Koplik (2:49)

An erotic fantasy? I don't know. I honestly, I cannot tell you a single person. Who saw Outside Mullingar.

Alessandra Gordon (2:58)

Me. I saw outside Mullingar. Yes.

Matt Koplik (3:01)

Why?

Alessandra Gordon (3:02)

Because I saw a video of Deborah Messing doing that accent. And I went, I need to see this in person. So I did.

Matt Koplik (3:09)

Yeah, I remember that, like, most of the talk about it, because it was Debra Messing's Broadway debut, and. And that was big news because Will and Grace had been off the air for, like, six years at that point. So she was. And she was doing some TV show before this. So, like, she was still famous and, like, in the trades, but she wasn't at the height of her fame. So everyone's like, well, let's see what this is. And it was all. All the talk was just about her accent.

Alessandra Gordon (3:32)

I mean, it was noteworthy.

Matt Koplik (3:37)

Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (3:38)

Was that a fair thing to say?

Matt Koplik (3:40)

As noteworthy as Annaleigh Ashford's accent in kinky boots?

Alessandra Gordon (3:44)

I'm so sorry. I can't. I can't open the door and talk about Annaleigh Ashford or we'll talk about nothing but Annalee Ashford for the next two and a half hours. Like, you can't. You can't invite me to swim in this pool.

Matt Koplik (3:53)

I want a parable.

Alessandra Gordon (3:57)

I. I can't.

Matt Koplik (3:59)

I. Hatley Ashford, is Sister Aloysius in doubt. A parable.

Alessandra Gordon (4:02)

Can you imagine?

Matt Koplik (4:04)

Honestly, I can.

Alessandra Gordon (4:05)

So funny.

Matt Koplik (4:06)

I will do what needs to be done. Yes, that's exactly what she would do. We are not completely on the exact same page about Annaleigh, but we are on the same chapter about her.

Alessandra Gordon (4:19)

Sure. As long as we're. Our thumbs are somewhere in the same section of this book.

Matt Koplik (4:23)

We are in the same book. We are in the same chapter. You are probably, like, six pages in, whereas I'm on, like, page one. Yeah, but it's fine. It's whatever. So maybe we should talk about doubt. A parable.

Alessandra Gordon (4:34)

Oh, maybe we should.

Matt Koplik (4:35)

Yeah. So, Ali, what is your history with this show?

Alessandra Gordon (4:38)

Okay, so this show came out when I was in high school. I did. Or the end of middle school.

Matt Koplik (4:46)

It came out our freshman year of high school. It was off Broadway in the fall winter of 2004, and transferred that February of 2005.

Alessandra Gordon (4:54)

Awesome. Okay, so I.

Matt Koplik (4:57)

This is what I'm here for.

Alessandra Gordon (4:58)

No, I love that. I appreciate that. What I remember about Doubt in its original run in New York was that it was not just, like, a critical hit, but it. It sort of gained a reputation as being the, like, erudite, intelligent thing to do around town. And that, like, it was like the topic of dinner conversation for adults and that, like, you were lame if you couldn't participate in the Doubt conversation.

Matt Koplik (5:26)

Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (5:26)

So much so that my parents, who famously did not like playing plays or musicals, but especially not plays, saw it and they did like it. I don't, I don't remember them like, being like, that was a huge waste of my time. But, like, you know that if somebody's being pressured into seeing a show, it must be because that show is like some sort of cultural. It became sort of like the Zeitgeist for a short period of time.

Matt Koplik (5:50)

Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (5:51)

So I have a very strong memory of my parents going to see Doubt. And I also have a very strong memory my mom coming home and going, I don't know what the point was, the guy did it. And I was like, sure. But I also remember as a kid being like, isn't the point that, like, you're supposed to also leave the theater with doubts and that, like, nobody is proven right or wrong in any way? And my mom was like, no, I think it was the priest, so we can let that rest. And I was like, great. The only person in the world who felt no doubt about Doubt was my mom.

Matt Koplik (6:18)

Well, and as I told, and as I told you before we watched the video at Lincoln Center Library at Taft, I watched an interview, I think it was Theater Talk with Cherry Jones, Brian Ethelburn and John Patrick Shanley and Michael Riedle, who called it one of the best places he's ever seen, said, you know, asked because they were, I think they were still doing a Manhattan theater club. They had announced Broadway, but they hadn't transferred just yet. And they were, he was asking them sort of like audience reactions. And Cherry Jones had said, what's interesting is, you know, there are some people who are on the fence and don't know. And then there are, you know, obviously like two resolute camps. She goes, the camp of people that are resolute that the priest is guilty are always mothers. Mothers are full.

Alessandra Gordon (6:59)

It makes so much sense to me. I believe that so thoroughly. And I also understand why when I was like 15 years old and just vaguely aware of what the script was supposed to be, because I probably read, you know, a review was like, you're being so close minded, you're supposed to be confused when you leave Mom. Ugh. And now that I'm older, I'm like, yeah, he did it, my mom.

Matt Koplik (7:22)

Yeah, my mom was also right, to be perfectly honest. And as you know, the structure of this, of this podcast has gone out the fucking Window.

Alessandra Gordon (7:30)

Yeah, Sorry.

Matt Koplik (7:31)

But no, but having seen the movie, because I remember. I also remember when the play came out. Like, there are. There was a time, ladies and gentlemen, when the American play was actually culturally relevant. And, like, was a touchstone for theatergoers of New York. And, like, was a talking point for the country. Like, think back of when Death of a Salesman came on Broadway or Streetcar Named Desire. Like, plays used to make stars and they used to actually run and they were profitable and, like, Hollywood was clamoring to make the movie versions of them. That has honestly gone away. And the only plays lately that have run and made money have been the British imports like Curious Incident, Harry Potter, Lehman Trilogy. I think the last American play to premiere on Broadway and, like, be critically successful, commercially successful, and Tourist was what the Constitution means to me.

Alessandra Gordon (8:18)

Oh.

Matt Koplik (8:19)

But even. Which I intend to cover on this podcast later. But in terms of, like, something similar to Doubt, it's really August Osage County, I would say, like, the four major American plays of this century that came to Broadway were critically successful, financially successful toward. And like, you know, people, there's a shorthand for them are proof. Doubt and August Osage County, I think I said. I said four, but I can't remember what I thought the other fourth one was. But those three specifically are very much like, they ran, they toured, they made money, all won the Pulitzer. If you were a hip New Yorker, you saw that. You saw it so you could talk about it.

Alessandra Gordon (8:55)

Do you remember? I know that he is British. What was the Tom Stoppard play? Play that was in, like, three parts.

Matt Koplik (9:02)

Coast of Utopia.

Alessandra Gordon (9:03)

Oh, my God. Coast of Utopia. Did that premiere in. Across, like, overseas or did that premiere on Broadway? I feel like that had a Broadway premiere.

Matt Koplik (9:09)

It. No, it. The play itself premiered in the uk. The production we got was not a transfer. It was a brand new production. Okay.

Alessandra Gordon (9:17)

Okay. I remember it being sort of like the Tom Stoppard play that started here and like, that kind of being the, like, yeah, we got this one. Suck it.

Matt Koplik (9:25)

Yeah. The interesting thing about Stoppard is, like, pretty much every time a production of a stopper play comes here, the ones that are the most successful are the ones that are not direct transfers. They're the ones that, like an American director takes over.

Alessandra Gordon (9:39)

Like a restaging.

Matt Koplik (9:40)

Yeah. So like, with the real thing. I know the production that we got in the 80s by Mike Nichols was a brand new production. That one was like his biggest hit until that point. And coast of Utopia, you know, Trevor Nunn directed the one in London. And, like, the reviews In London from. American critics were like, the play is good. This production is not. And so when Lincoln center took it on, they're like, Jack o', Brien, like, you do what you want to do, so. And the other thing about that production was, like, it was. Because it was so huge, it had a whole slew of different designers. So it had, like, three separate set designers, three separate lighting designers. And no, they. There were marathon days. There were, you know, all this other stuff. And then I remember it was very controversial when Charles Isherwood wrote a piece like, a month into the run, and he was like, I'll admit it, I was bored at coast of Utopia. Which was, like, something you were not allowed to say. Right.

Alessandra Gordon (10:28)

Because it was a big. That was another big cultural moment. Like, coast of Utopia was another. Like, if you don't see it, you must not be cultured. Don't you want to be able to keep up with the dinner conversation? But I guess I was also saying, like, I sort of remembered a weird, like, American Broadway ownership over it.

Matt Koplik (10:46)

Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (10:47)

And I guess what you're saying makes sense that we, like, restaged it better.

Matt Koplik (10:50)

Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (10:51)

And so we were like, well, this one's the American one. Yeah.

Matt Koplik (10:54)

But it happens all the time, though. Like, it's. Why, like, there's the British fetishization of American works. And, like, there's. When it's. When a British revival comes here of an American work, it's always with the clout of, we did it better. And it's same thing like, when Americans stage a British play for the first time and do it so well, we're like, we did it better than you. So, like, coast of Utopia, real thing.

Alessandra Gordon (11:14)

Right, Right.

Matt Koplik (11:15)

Most recently, like, the Death of a Salesman revival that came over, came with the air of. The British did it best. Then again, I saw that production, and I don't think they did it best, but, hey, here we are. Doubt, though. Yeah. Like, it came to Broadway with that energy of, like, this is the thing. And in a season that also, like, had Spamalot, that was kind of running around, being the big hit of the year.

Alessandra Gordon (11:39)

Yeah.

Matt Koplik (11:40)

Spelling Bee transferred that year as well. Like, that had a lot of buzz to Atlanta. The Piazza was sort of everyone being like, what's this weird musical that's half an Italian? And Doubt was just sort of the one that's like, nope. Like. Like, Spamalot, it's making money. Like, Spelling Bee, It's. It has all the critics raving and, like, lightning, the Piazza, it has everybody talking. So it's all three combined In a perfect way.

Alessandra Gordon (12:00)

I mean, what did it was like that was truly a spectacular theater season. Like in general, I did not see Doubt. Not because I didn't go see plays as a teenager, which I definitely did. But like I have a vague memory of my parents being like, you get one gift for Hanukkah and you get one gift for your birthday. And I think I saw spelling bee and I think I saw light in the piazza. Like I think this just didn't make the, the 14 year old girl's ideal cut of what she was going to see. Tbh as her, as her birthday present.

Matt Koplik (12:32)

Tbh, you picked right. Those are absolutely the right things to see.

Alessandra Gordon (12:37)

Also, I mean, also, like I've now seen scenes from Doubt in my acting school career, you know, 4,000 times. And it is certainly deserving of its like, like you were saying, proof. Like it's like deserving of that status of the like, quote unquote, great American contemporary play that has such strong scene work and such indelible little characters that like, it becomes acting school fodder for eternity. Like, we'll never replace these scenes being handed out to sophomores ever. And you sometimes forget how good the play is when you, when your last memory of it was like a classmate of yours, like stumbling through it and not really understanding the weight of it. Yeah, that when we went to go watch this, to me it felt like I'd never seen Doubt before. Like genuinely, like, even though I knew exactly what was going to happen, I probably could have, scene by scene, given you a summary of the scenes in order because I've seen scenes from Doubt so many times. I genuinely felt like I'd never heard the words before because like, you forget what it's like when you see truly fantastic actors take on the script. And it's amazing. And it is like absolutely as good as everybody says it is. It's so fantastically and tightly written with really memorable, very different characters. It's great.

Matt Koplik (14:09)

I'm gonna counter you a little bit. I think it's very good. I don't think it's great.

Alessandra Gordon (14:14)

Oh, I like was prepared to be like, yeah, it's Doubt. And after we went to go see it at Theater for Lincoln at the Lincoln Center Library, which was very fun by the way. Matt and I used to go to Lincoln Center Library to watch shows all throughout high school. This felt very nostalgic. I really appreciated it.

Matt Koplik (14:32)

Yeah, I was watching Kiss of the Spider Woman. That's a great memory.

Alessandra Gordon (14:35)

Oh my. When are we going to talk about that on this Podcast. It's like, a favorite show. I love it. Wait, so we. I was watching it, and, like, the cast is a cast of proud weirdos, which I love, because, like, it's like, we. I guess I thought I was being unprincipled by talking about what I was talking about before, but actually, it all ties back. When you see an actor who is so good and so relaxed and so in control of their craft, you realize that the mark of a truly great actor is that they start to kind of make their characters weirdos. And everybody in Doubt is a very strange character. They are, like, unusual people portrayed unusually by confident actors. And that is the thing that I missed every time I've ever gone to see Doubt or ever seen it in, like, a student production or a college acting class, which is that they get boiled down to these really sort of base, level characteristic, which is that, like, Sister Aloysius is cold and strict, and Sister James is flighty and young, and the priest is a real creep and kind of a bully, and that's what ends up happening. And then you go, oh, that's a fine show. I. I understand that. Cool. And then you go, see, you know, Cherry Jones do it. And you're like, oh, she's not just a weird, strict, cold woman who spends her days in her office. She's like this loving and exacting presence who doesn't know how to. Who, like, through the trauma of her life, has no idea how to produce warmth. But to her, love is manifested in the form of protection. And she is actually an intensely loving character. But you wouldn't know it unless you spent an entire play with her.

Matt Koplik (16:32)

Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (16:32)

Cool. Amazing. Like. Like, that's the level of. That's the thing that I experienced for the first time watching Doubt with you, watching the original cast do it.

Matt Koplik (16:40)

Yeah, there's a. There was. So. I don't want to sound mean. Like, I. I enjoyed watching it, and I. And I knew I was going to like the play more watching that video with you, because. Am I gonna sneeze? No, unfortunately not. Well, the thing I didn't really mention yet on this episode, but I do think I mentioned it when you and I did. The National Theater episode was the season of Doubt. I did not see it. I had read it towards the end of the season, and I had seen the pillow man, and I remember seeing the pillow man going, I can't imagine anything actually being better than this. So, like. And I was really annoyed that the conversation about Doubt was that it was so unimpeachably brilliant. That nothing could touch doubt that year. Like, what I felt about the Pillow man, everyone else was saying about doubt. And I was like, I could. I remember being like. I could see a world where doubt is as good as the Pillow Man. You cannot tell me that doubt is better than this.

Alessandra Gordon (17:33)

And I get that. I mean, look, to speak about this has all been very weirdly cyclical. The same year as the coast of Utopia nonsense was the same year as my favorite play that nobody knows or likes, Coram Boy. And it was the same thing where no one saw any play in New York City that wasn't coast of Utopia. And so nobody saw Corn Boy. And so it closed in, like, four days. And so to me, it was that same thing of, like, you are the big bully on Broadway who's taken all the press. So, like, I understand the impetus to be like, no, my thing. Why isn't anyone paying attention to my thing?

Matt Koplik (18:09)

It's also not the show's fault. It's the cyclical. It's the cyclical hype machine of Broadway, of when the community decides that one show is the thing.

Alessandra Gordon (18:18)

Right. And then you can't go against the machine.

Matt Koplik (18:21)

Yeah. There's no stopping it. It's the Hamilton syndrome. Right. Like, I will always get on my soapbox and say that Shuffle along deserved choreography over Hamilton. I also would have probably given shuffle on costumes over Hamilton. Hamilton is amazing. But I was like, guys, it's not an 11 Tony win thing. Like, there. There are things you can spread the wealth on. But that is just sort of how I always am. I. I very rarely think any production is worthy of, like, a total sweep. I think I, like, maybe have five things in the last 30 years that I would say that about. Point is, when the movie came out, I remember that was when sort of people soured on the material. Because with that movie, it's very faithful to the show. I mean, there's, like, pockets of things that, like, John Patrick Shanley added to the screenplay, but it's mostly the play, and he directed it, so he was in total control of, like, the tone of it, the tempo of it. And everyone was like, this is how you see your material. Like, it's coming off very melodramatic and kind of stilted. And Meryl was riding high because she had, you know, Devil versus Prada and Mamma Mia. And she was becoming a box office draw again. And it was the whole, like, what can't Meryl do? And I remember with the Dow performance, the talk was sort of like, she's good. She's not great, but she's good.

Alessandra Gordon (19:34)

Yeah.

Matt Koplik (19:35)

Then most of the talk was about Viola Davis and how she kind of stole the movie.

Alessandra Gordon (19:40)

Oh, for sure.

Matt Koplik (19:42)

Which she absolutely did. I will say, watching the play with you, I was surprised at how there's. There is humor in the movie, but so much of it is. Is removed from the stage show. Like they. The stage show has a lot more laughter in it than the movie does. Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (20:01)

Well, I also think it's because they're weirdos. Like.

Matt Koplik (20:03)

Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (20:03)

I like the way that Brian F. O' Byrne plays Father Flynn when he finally turns on his anger. When you see him genuinely furious and exerting his status for the first time, it's shocking because he plays him as kind of this like lanky, strange goofball.

Matt Koplik (20:27)

Yeah, like I'm one of you.

Alessandra Gordon (20:29)

Yeah, he like, he's kind of playing like young cool teacher who like is happy to be at the butt of a joke. And like when he's doing his sermons, he's doing funny voices and accents and stuff. And you like fully understand why he skates under the radar if that is exactly. If that is what he is doing for so long and so successfully. Because he doesn't play him like a weird, lascivious creep. He plays him like a charming Bronx weirdo. And then when he finally raises his voice, you're like, oh, right, you have a lot of power and you're happy to wield it. Which is how you get away with what you get away with for so long. Which is that like you know when to strike and when not to.

Matt Koplik (21:15)

There's.

Alessandra Gordon (21:15)

It's great. But like when stuff like that gets removed. God lover. Because I do, I really do adore Amy Adams. So I don't want to be one of those people who goes down on record for being anti Amy Adams. I really love her, but I really think her performance in the movie of Doubt is like unsuccessful.

Matt Koplik (21:34)

Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (21:35)

Because she's just kind of playing this like wide eyed, sweet, impressionable young woman, which is like certainly not a misread of the text. But like is missing what I. Is missing a certain something I didn't have words for until I went and I saw what's her name? Heather Goldenschmidt.

Matt Koplik (21:56)

Something. I'm looking it up.

Alessandra Gordon (21:58)

Heather Goldenhurst. Heather Goldenhurst.

Matt Koplik (21:59)

Yes.

Alessandra Gordon (22:00)

She is so weird.

Matt Koplik (22:04)

Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (22:04)

She is the weirdest woman who's ever. Her as Sister James. I'm sure she is a regular person is not weird. But I'm saying her portrayal of Sister James is the weirdest lady. She is like fidgety and inward and loud and has the strangest accent and voice. And you're just like, oh, I. I see in you a woman who is a little lost and is also, like, the kind of person who would take their. What is it called? You take your vow, you take your sacrament. What is it when you decide to become a nun? Whatever.

Matt Koplik (22:39)

Yeah, yeah, I thought because you're marrying. You're marrying God. So I guess.

Alessandra Gordon (22:43)

Right. She has a line about how, like, she wouldn't find it appropriate to talk to the young girls about their, like, burgeoning sexualities because she has. She took her vows before she ever did anything sexual with anybody. And, like, in her performance, you see that. You see this, like, person who's like, oh, you were lost and you really needed something and you found God, and that is what you've, like, decided to cling to, and you're going to be a good teacher. I don't know. I just. There was nothing about that in Amy Adams's performance. And so she felt so fragile and baby bird like that. Like, it was, like, so easy to believe that she'd have the wool pulled over her eyes.

Matt Koplik (23:19)

Heather, you know, Heather played vulnerability. Amy played innocence. And there's a big difference because it's. Yes. So it's. Sister James is the. Is the character. Yeah, because it's. And we'll sort of go a little further about the plot of this show in a second, but, uh, Sister James is young. She's rather new to the convent, I suppose, um, at least as a teacher. She's a. She's new as a teacher. And her. Our introduction to her with Sister Eloicius is talking about how she approaches teaching and Sister James approaches history with all this passion and love and, like, really wants the children to learn through her excitement about the subject. And Aloysius is like, no, that's not what you do. You give them the facts, they memorize it, and we move on. And part of it, that is a foreshadowing for the rest of the play. Because what Sister Aloysius is trying to say is, like, don't let your perception of the world or your biases color the facts. You have to see what's actually there and then determine from that. And Sister James is. She takes it all so painfully. Like, Sister Aloysius is basically giving her an employee review. I wouldn't say it's the most constructive criticism, because she's not. She's not saying it because she's not saying it to her in a way that's like, you're doing good work, but here's how you are going to do it better. She's like, you're not doing a good job, and if you care about this, you'll start doing a good job. Here are the five things you got to do. And Sister Aloysius is so tough because she's got to be that. She's like, what's the problem with what I said? I just gave you information to make you better. And we as an audience are watching and be like, yeah, you destroyed her house before then giving her five planks of wood to build a new one.

Alessandra Gordon (25:06)

And also, something I didn't really understand from the movie, I don't know if it was a performance thing or a rewriting thing, but there's a moment in the play that really struck me in the cast that we watched where when Sister James and Father Flynn have a private conversation for the first time, she starts off really cold to him because she's still suspecting. He sort of weasels his way in and gets her to, like, open up about things that make her emotional, which are mostly her kids. He, like, turns her vulnerability against her. And then she breaks down and is like, I don't have the same relationship with them that I used to anymore. I don't feel like they trust me anymore. And Sister Aloysia has completely destroyed my. My love of teaching. And. And it's like, oh, he's so smart. He's good at what he does because he knew that if he was going to find an ally in her, he would use what they. What he says is also his weakness, which is, don't you ever just see a kid and want to help them, even if it's not the quote, unquote, right thing to do at the quote unquote right time? Don't you ever want to break a rule just because you see a kid in pain? And she's like, yes, because she does feel that way, because she's not at the level of remaining a step removed from the kids as a form of love and respect that, like, Sister Aloysius thinks that it is. You know what I mean? That, like, we're not their friends. They're their teachers. They have themselves for be. To be friends with. But, like, Sister James doesn't believe that yet and finds so much love and meaning in her life through the love of the students that when Sister Aloysius is like, well, the kids aren't supposed to love you. They're supposed to respect and be kind of scared of you. And it becomes like, the weapon with which they're able to, like, turn the whole thing against her and, like, get Sister James on the side of Father Flynn. That was a really convoluted way of saying what I was trying to say.

Matt Koplik (27:01)

Yeah. So the scene you're referring to with Father Flynn and Sister James is. So for anyone who doesn't know the plot of doubt, it takes place at a Catholic school, right? Catholic school in, like, the Bronx, I guess, in the early 1960s. Yeah, in the early 1960s. It is very soon after JFK's assassination, which we learn because the play opens with one of Father Flynn's sermons, and he's sort of talking about when you aren't sure what happens when you have doubts. Basically. A little on the nose for the theme of the play, but here we are. And part of the reason why he brings it up is because with the President's assassination, we're all sort of in flux and unsure of what to do, how to talk about it, and all these things. So that's where, like, the nation is at. That's where this school is at. The whole country has just gone through a trauma. And the thing about trauma is that when it goes unregistered, when it goes uncared for, the body still holds onto it, even if the mind's trying to repress it. And so everyone is kind of on edge in general just from that alone. And then, in addition to this, Father Flynn is rather new to the parish of this con. Of this Catholic school. I think he's only been there for a year, maybe a little less than that.

Alessandra Gordon (28:07)

Yeah.

Matt Koplik (28:09)

And he teaches basketball for. For the boys. And, you know, there's. What do they call when, like, boys are joining as, like, altar boys? They were saying, like, he's joined the registry or something like that.

Alessandra Gordon (28:22)

Yeah. God, it does suck when we have two Jews talking about a show with a Catholic school, huh?

Matt Koplik (28:27)

1,000%. I'm like, what are these terms? I don't know. You're the top. Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (28:33)

You're an arrow caller. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar tread.

Matt Koplik (28:44)

And basically the. The school's first black student, Sister Aloysius, is asking Sister James because she is the student's teacher, basically just trying to stay on top of him. Not because, like, she necessarily cares about him as a human being. It's not like Sister Aloysi's like, I like that boy. He's sweet. She's like, he's our first black student. She goes as an objective observer. She's like, it's stupid to not worry about his safety. We have to be on top of this. And Sister James is coming at it from empathy. And Alois is like, no, be a disciplinarian. And then to complicate matters further, she finds out that Father Flynn has taken an interest in the boy and that an incident occurred that no one was witness to. But Sister James was told by Aloysius to just be on the alert of anything strange she might see. And Sister James informs Aloysius Father Flynn brought. What's the boy's name?

Alessandra Gordon (29:36)

Donald.

Matt Koplik (29:37)

Yes, brought Donald into his office. Donald came back rather odd, put his head on the desk and didn't pay attention the rest of class. And when Sister James went to check on him at the end of class, she smelled wine on his breath. And that's all we know. Nothing else. Else that we know. But this is enough for Sister Aloysius to go in and get Father Flynn the fuck out of this school. And it's a battle of. Of those two, essentially. And Sister James is sort of the tipping point for either of them because Sister Aloysius discusses, and it is also a theme of the play, that even though they are nuns in a Catholic school, they are also women in a system that is controlled by men just like the rest of the world. And that if they are going to be successful, they have to be strategic and they have to be ruthless and they can't always go by the rules because if they go to God, what's. I'm not knowing any of you.

Alessandra Gordon (30:31)

I know the, the boss of the deacon or whatever. Yes, I know. I feel terrible. I should have written this down while we were watching it, but I was sort of entranced. But there's another even more important.

Matt Koplik (30:42)

Yeah, it's like Archdeacon or something like that.

Alessandra Gordon (30:44)

Boss of the priests.

Matt Koplik (30:46)

Yes.

Alessandra Gordon (30:46)

And he's useless and old and kind of just wants to keep the peace in. In all regards, so.

Matt Koplik (30:52)

And he's also a man and is going to side with the men every time. And so, like, we are told constantly, like, what the protocol is for Sister Aloysius to go through and she constantly ignores it because she's doing what she thinks is right and she knows that the system is broken and in order to actually make their correct thing happen, she's gotta not go by any of the rules. And, you know, Father Flynn is confronted about. I was actually surprised I. I didn't realize how early in the play Father Flynn is confronted with the Donald stuff. Like, in my mind it was like the third act, but it's not. It's like right at the top. Yeah, yeah. It's like towards the end of the first act of the three act structure. Because then the rest of the play is sort of like a battle between the two of them. And I bring all this up because you were talking about the scene that Father Flynn has alone with Sister James. One of the things that is a battle between Aloysius and Father Flynn is that like, she's the old way, he's the new way. He's about. We don't want the church to be scary. We want people to like coming to church. We want kids to be enthusiastic about religion. We want them to like God. And Aloysius is like, the fuck does that do? And we learn, you know, she wasn't always a nun. She actually used to be married. Her husband was killed in the war. And she sort of turned to being a nun later in life and found comfort and structure in that. But not because it was a warming presence. It was simply because of like the strictness of it all. And she thinks that there is a moral backbone to having that kind of structure. She talks about like the disgrace of people's penmanship and like Father Flynn drinks his tea with four sugars and milk. And it's like she's just like, we need grit in ourselves if we're gonna survive in this world. And she sees through the charm of Father Flynn because someone like Father Flynn uses that ease to get people on his side. And I bring this back to the Sister James scene with him because we are watching a master manipulator and charmer at work. The thing I have learned from life that I also think is very well employed in this play is you actually want to be very wary of charming people. Charm is not an actual connection you have with someone. It's someone's ability to get you to let them in.

Alessandra Gordon (33:04)

Yeah, I'm. I'm always saying this about you.

Matt Koplik (33:07)

Thank you very much.

Alessandra Gordon (33:07)

I'm saying this about you to anyone who will listen.

Matt Koplik (33:09)

Thank you so much. You're the only person who would call me charming. Everyone else would be like, I don't know. He's an acquired taste.

Alessandra Gordon (33:14)

Hey, I was raised to be charming, not sincere. Like, he. Like he nailed it when he wrote that line.

Matt Koplik (33:19)

Motherfucking fucker. Yeah, because charm is not actually. Again, it's not a human connection. It is not two people relating to each other. It's one person who's able to make you think that they are into you. There's a certain actor that I know who has been on the Broadway and he's, you know, been on tv. And he's like a. He's a nice guy, but I learned by being around him that his superpower and what helps him get cast all the time is, like, you spend five minutes alone with him and he makes you convinced he wants to fuck you, even though you know it's not true.

Alessandra Gordon (33:52)

When you can make somebody else feel important and wanted, whether or not it's true, it's like one of the most powerful tools in the universe.

Matt Koplik (34:00)

1,000%. Like, every time I have a conversation with this guy, and it's been a few years since we've, like, spoken, spoken, but, like, anytime we have a conversation, he'll walk away. I'm like, am I about to marry Blank. Blank.

Alessandra Gordon (34:11)

Yeah.

Matt Koplik (34:12)

And then you, like, see him do it with the same person. Like, oh, no. That's just, like, something he's able to turn on. And so, like, Father Flynn is not connecting with Sister James. He is making her think that they are connecting. And he, as you said, like, he finds the thing that is that matters most to her, that she's super vulnerable about, which is her joy of teaching and her connection with these children and her not. Not her innocence, but, like, her desire for good. And he zeros in on that. And rather than, like, giving her hope that he can help, like, get her that joy back, he helps her put a villain to her loss of that joy, which, as you said, it's her saying, oh, Aloysius is the enemy, because I no longer enjoy teaching and it's because of her. It's like, no. Aloysius opened your eyes to the cruelty of the world and the system of which you are a part of, and now you can't go back and you hate that, and so you blame her. And. But she. Aloysius is not the one.

Alessandra Gordon (35:06)

Kind of amazing manipulation. And, like, that's, like, the surprise of the play that I did not really understand was there and did not give sufficient credit for in my experience of having seen that scene done by two college kids or even watching the movie, which is a fine movie. And I certainly think Philip Seymour Hoffman is really good. But. But I just. I don't think that scene is particularly fantastic. And, like, that's the thing that was missing for me that I didn't know was missing was that thing of, like, him seeing someone else and just understanding implicitly where to stick the knife in, because he knows exactly what the best approach is. And that, like, he finds Sister Aloysius so difficult, not just because they disagree on things like, should we be. Should we have secular music in the Christmas play? And do, do, do, do. But because, like, she just doesn't have those weak stu spots. Because she has made sure she will not function in this world with a weak spot that she can find. And so he can't find the place where he's gonna slide the knife in. So he just has to sort of batter against her giant armor. And she, like, won't break. And it's probably the first person he hasn't been able to, like, figure out the way in. And, like, you know, when you think about Sister James again in this performance that I really loved of this, like, very odd bird, this strange woman who is, like, moves strangely and talks strangely.

Matt Koplik (36:41)

She's. She's a lost. She's a lost child essentially in her own right.

Alessandra Gordon (36:45)

Like, she's sort of fun like you. I'm like. I'm like, I love her. I want to know more about her. I want the whole backstory.

Matt Koplik (36:52)

She's not Snow White. She's playing like.

Alessandra Gordon (36:55)

She's playing a weirdo from the Bronx. She's playing, like, this, like, tough gal who decided to go into, like, religion. And, like, you can see the vestiges of, like, a kind of, like, a rough and tumble kind of weird gal who cut her teeth in the Bronx, but now has decided to, like, turn her life towards, like, teaching and God. And when you understand that she took her vows really early and has never been intimate with somebody, and her father does her. She has a family, but they don't live close because when her brother gets sick, she has to leave town. Now, like, all that stuff, you start to understand that, like, her version of love, her way to connect to people is to teach. And that, like, that was her one and only joy in life, was like, having kids be like, I love you. You're my best. You're my best teacher. When I don't care. I used to hate history class, but now I like it because when you teach it, you make it alive. And she's like, that is her purpose in life. But, like, Sister Aloysius is the only person who works at the school who. Whose purpose in life isn't to get some measure of her purpose does not depend on what the kids give her. Yeah, everybody else has made it that, like, the kids give me purpose because when they love me, I feel affirmed. Even though, like. And that's. I. They. That. I mean that both innocently and not innocently. Right. Like, Mr. James, that's the innocent version of that, which is that like when they tell me I'm a good teacher, I feel like a good person person. And then there's the Father Flynn thing, which is the sinister version of that.

Matt Koplik (38:26)

When I go knuckles deep in a boy, I see God. Sister Aloysius doesn't need the reassurance of another person to have any worth of herself.

Alessandra Gordon (38:35)

Right? So like she seems so cold and removed, but she's like the healthiest so to speak. Because you know, that is a weird thing where like when you are an educator, you're not supposed to make your self worth depend upon what a fourth grader says to you.

Matt Koplik (38:50)

Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (38:51)

Do you know what I mean? They're supposed to exist outside of that and still somehow give a part of yourself to them.

Matt Koplik (38:57)

There's a. There's a less intense example I want to give about this which is something I learned from my therapist. Colton. Thanks, Colton. Wow.

Alessandra Gordon (39:06)

Thanks Colton.

Matt Koplik (39:07)

Thanks, Colton. We were talking about conversations like when. When you are trying to explain yourself to someone your truth. Like when you have something like for. Basically anytime you have a quote unquote difficult conversation with someone where you. You need to get something across to them. The only way you can do that successfully is sharing your truth without the expectation of a certain kind of response from that person. Do not say what you're saying in the hopes of you will then get a certain response back. Simply speak of what you want and who you are and where you're at truthfully because you need to get that across. How they respond is not, is not up to you. And if you, and if you are only saying this in order to get that response, you're. You're running around in circles.

Alessandra Gordon (39:52)

And what's the point of putting yourself out there just to say it if you, if it. All that matters is getting one specific response from.

Matt Koplik (39:59)

And as you said, like Sister James connects with the children because that love that she gets from them gives her purpose. Father Flynn gets that adoration so he can use it for his own personal gain down the road. Sister Aloysius does not need the love of the children. She does not need the. The. What's the word for it? The devotion of the children for any personal gain, either emotional or manipulatively. That's not a word, but who fucking cares? She needs them to respect her because that's just her job in order. It's like I. My purpose is to get them to learn. We are training these people to go out and become human beings in the world. And anything else is, you know, I don't know I'm losing words today, but it's, it's incidental. I'm just like. I don't care how they feel about me. I don't care any love that's there, that is just my job. Which is why she's so.

Alessandra Gordon (40:52)

I just want them.

Matt Koplik (40:54)

Yeah. And it's why she's so good and it's why she's so strong as a person. For the most part. Obviously she has her vulnerabilities. And like we see, Cherry Jones is so good in the play because you see moments sometimes where it's not that she's being weak, but rather like certain responses by Father Flynn do take her by surprise. And like there's like a. There's a moment where she's sitting down talking about something and he just fucking snaps at her and shouts basically into her face. And you see Cherry Jones flinch because.

Alessandra Gordon (41:23)

Even though her hands go inside her habit and she looks like very small and weak and it's like very sad and scary.

Matt Koplik (41:30)

Yeah, she go, she kind of retreats inside of herself, but then she comes back with a vengeance, which I love. And it's sort of. Because it's. What she's doing is she has a moment where that takes her by surprise and she maybe even has her own like self doubt in that second. But then all of a sudden she's starting to recharge. She's like, I'm going to let him say what he needs to say while I get my. While I get my power back. And then I will come back at him with a thousand fires.

Alessandra Gordon (41:51)

Right.

Matt Koplik (41:52)

Whereas in the movie Meryl is a little more of a piranha and she's kind of just always looking around like ready to strike. And Philip Seymour Hoffman is charming in the first half and then when like things take a turn for the pedophilia, he becomes a bit of a snake oil salesman. Whereas Brian F. O', Byrne, like, it's more just all different shades of the same guy. Which is, I think, what adds to the place, the play's stage success as opposed to the film success of he. You don't see him flip a switch at any point. You just see him and then watch how he uses different facets to that to himself to get what he wants. Whereas Philip Hoffman's like, now I turn on the emotional charm, now I turn on the. The man charm. And it's you. You see the manipulation coming from a mile away. Or it's Brian Oferburn. It's like you're halfway through the scene until you realize.

Alessandra Gordon (42:41)

When you suddenly realize it's. Yeah, I completely agree with that. I also think that, like. So there's a. There's a whole conversation that Father Flynn has with Sister Aloysius. I'm pretty sure it's with her. Where. No, maybe it was Sister James. I apologize. I can't remember. But basically, he admits all women are the same. Ali, is that what you're saying to me? Every woman is a bitch? No, I'm just kidding.

Matt Koplik (43:08)

It's a bitch and a nun. What is this, an Angela Webber musical?

Alessandra Gordon (43:13)

Wow. I apologize. He has a conversation with one of the women about. They ask him basically, like, where he gets the stories for his sermons, and he says he makes them up. And there's, like, an implication of just like, so you're lying to us. And he's like, no, I'm telling you a parable. And the point of a parable is to get a larger story and a larger emotional point across. And the easiest way to do that is with characters. Because if I just tell you, don't gossip. Gossip is bad. It goes in one ear and out the other. But if I can paint you a picture of a story of a man's life who was ruined by gossip and with imagery and this, you'll remember it. It. And you'll take it home and you'll remember it forever. And it's like, what an interest it. He is correct in saying that. And it also still reveals him to be a person who will make up anything so long as it helps solidify his correctness. We know he's very good at it because he gets. People listen to him all the time to tell these stories, and they all go, wow, he's such an effective storyteller. And I'll never forget that thing he said. And it all comes down to lies.

Matt Koplik (44:21)

Yeah. Well, so he is correct. You're right. He's correct about the fact that these parables are what help us learn, because we're literally watching that happen by watching this play. That's. Anytime you go see a play, we're watching a dramatic work, whether it's based in a factual story or a fictional one. Like, it's. It all. All successful art helps us learn a little bit about ourselves or gives us tools to go out into the world and make a little more sense of life, at least in my opinion. I think, like, yeah, I agree with that. That that's what makes theater and film and TV so important is, you know, not just representation, but, like, how we see these stories. And we can go out into the world and be like, oh, what is happening here is, like, what happened to so and so and such and such? And, like, even if it's. Even if that was fictitious, I actually have some tools now to deal with this because I've. I've. I gained something from the story I was told, right?

Alessandra Gordon (45:08)

Or even if it's just, like, an unbelievably authentic representation of one person's existence. I don't need to see myself in that story to go, wow, I, like, understand that that is your story. And, like, I wouldn't have had access to that because I don't live your life. Do what I mean by that.

Matt Koplik (45:28)

You literally just described empathy. Ali Gordon. That is.

Alessandra Gordon (45:31)

No, no, but that.

Matt Koplik (45:32)

No, but that's. No, but What I mean is I. I just really hate when people are like, well, that's not my journey, so I can't connect them.

Alessandra Gordon (45:37)

Like, that's what I'm trying to say to anybody is that, like, it's less. It's not even just empathy, because empathy is step one, right? Empathy is, like, just, like, you should have it, please. And then, like, step two is this thing of, like, no, no, no. A good story has to appeal to everybody. Everybody has to see themselves in your story, or else it's not a good story. And I'm trying to say, like, no, I fundamentally disagree with that because when I went to go see a Strange Loop, I fucking loved it and went back and saw it again, like, immediately. But it wasn't because I saw myself in the story. It's because somebody got the opportunity to unbelievably, authentically say what their complications were in life. And I was, like, enamored by the storytelling and the humor and the story. That is not my life, and I never will be. And so I got to, like, have this. This fantastically told window into somebody's soul and psyche. And I, like, feel. Sure, I feel empathy for the character, but also, like, thank you for showing me your fucking truth. I don't have to go the part of that that I related to. It's like, who cares if I do? Thank you for showing me something that is real to you.

Matt Koplik (46:46)

Also, like, question, what should I care about what you related to? Who the fuck are you? What's your dream exactly?

Alessandra Gordon (46:51)

And why? What makes me so special that the. The quality of a show is being good or not is whether or not I could see myself in it. Like, who gives a shit?

Matt Koplik (46:58)

But this is all to say, yes, he is correct about how parables work, but you are Also correct in the sense that he is lying because he's presenting these stories as truth. He's not saying, let me tell you a story I came up with the other day. He's telling you like, let me tell you a story I heard the other day, right?

Alessandra Gordon (47:12)

And this really happened. And you should feel bad about this man because this man, who's totally real, had his life ruined by gossip and I swear to God, this totally really happened. Yes, but it didn't really happen.

Matt Koplik (47:23)

It didn't really happen.

Alessandra Gordon (47:24)

You just want us to have sympathy for this fake man so we can have sympathy for you.

Matt Koplik (47:27)

And they're all. So it's all these details about him that again. And so when I say like, I think the play is very good, not great, when I, I, I'm not trying to knock it down. I do think it is a very well structured, tightly written play. And I think it is most importantly a platform for truly great actors. And great actors will elevate it to another level. Which is, I think what happened with the original production is they had a tight knit ensemble of four incredible weird actors making this like a night of good cathartic drama. Where I feel like the play kind of weakens for me is like in the last scene, just because, like I don't, I think Shanley makes it very clear, just even if people have their doubts, I'm sort of on the side of your mother alley where I'm like, I, I, I, you cannot, I, you cannot explain to me in any way how the play sets up doubt. By the end, it's just, it is, there's too much that's been said and done that it's like, no, there's, there's no human behavior has taught me that he did it. Everything that he has said and done up until this point, how he acts after the fact, what we learn at the very end in the last scene, I'm like, no there any, like, even if anything is all circumstantial, it's still too, if it's too many coincidences in, in a night, chances are it's, it's the thing.

Alessandra Gordon (48:43)

I mean so, so plot wise and I guess skip it if you don't want to know how doubt ends.

Matt Koplik (48:50)

Who doesn't want to know how doubt ends?

Alessandra Gordon (48:53)

Wow. Sister Eloise just gets another private meeting with Father Flynn where she intimates that she had called a nun who worked at the school he worked at last. And he gets really furious because he's like, you're not supposed to do that. That's not the, that's not the point of order. You're supposed to call the bishop. And she's like, well, I didn't call the bishop, I called a nun. And she told me everything I need to know. And he's like, what does that mean? Like, what did she tell you? And she was like, she told me enough. She told me everything that I would need to know.

Matt Koplik (49:20)

And even. Well, he even says, he says, he says, which nun?

Alessandra Gordon (49:23)

Right, right.

Matt Koplik (49:24)

It's very. He's not even like. Because his, his tone isn't like, who did you talk to? Like, who would lie about me? He's like, which none did you talk to?

Alessandra Gordon (49:31)

And she's like, I don't need to tell you that it's not your business. And he's like, what did she say? And she's like, I don't need to tell you that it's not your business.

Matt Koplik (49:36)

Yep.

Alessandra Gordon (49:37)

But it flips him out enough that he requests a transfer to another school.

Matt Koplik (49:40)

Yes. So he also got transferred. He also got transferred to this school is the other thing. Like he's been transferred twice.

Alessandra Gordon (49:47)

And I think he's actually been transferred more than twice. I think she says he's been transferred like three or four times.

Matt Koplik (49:51)

I think she said three times in five years. Which is, that's like, we're talking like every, like every.

Alessandra Gordon (49:57)

Every other year, basically.

Matt Koplik (49:58)

Yeah. Every 14 months he gets transferred and for. And Aloysius even says, I think in like scene three, because after she tells Sister James, like, keep your eyes open for anything weird. And James tells her like, Donald came back from the rectory, which I, God, I, I'm such, I am such a sick person. Because every time I would hear them refer to it as the rectory, I'm like, I'm sure Donald just came back from the rectory because my God, we.

Alessandra Gordon (50:23)

Shouldn'T be doing this. You should not have let Juju's be like, yeah, let's do doubt. We totally understand this. We're going to be extremely sensitive.

Matt Koplik (50:31)

Listen, Ali Gordon, I was groomed in high school, so I absolutely can talk about this play, but I was, I am not an African American child in 1960s Catholic school getting finger blasted by a long nailed priest in the rectory.

Alessandra Gordon (50:44)

Oh my God, don't bring up the long nails he has.

Matt Koplik (50:47)

That's the, Honestly, that's the thing that's traumatic for me. They talk about how Father Flynn has these like slightly long fingernails. So I'm always just sad for Donald. I'm like, what must that have felt like with the long nails? I'm so sorry, Donald. That was your first experience.

Alessandra Gordon (50:59)

I can't do this.

Matt Koplik (51:00)

Well, we have to talk about his mom.

Alessandra Gordon (51:01)

I'm tapping out, but we have to.

Matt Koplik (51:03)

Talk about his mom at some point because it's important. But. But yes, as you said. So when James tells Aloysius, Donald came back from the rectory, he was odd, he had alcohol in his breath. Aloysius says, so it's happened. And we are. And we are led to believe that it's happened once before. And most likely Aloysius was not able to get the result she wanted from it. So this time she's like, she is Top Gun Maverick. She's taking that rule book, she's throwing it in the trash, and she's doing it. She's doing what needs to be done to protect the child and protect the school. And as you said, eventually she gets down to brass tacks and intimates that she called the other school. Talk to a nun, not the bishop, and she heard all she needed to hear. And he transfers. And then the next year, she never.

Alessandra Gordon (51:44)

Confirms what she heard or whatever. And then it turns out she actually didn't even call us past school. But the fact that he acted the way he did when she confronted him with that information means there is, without a doubt in her mind, he is guilty. Because if there wasn't anything to cover up and it didn't matter who he talked to, then why would he transfer schools off? Just merely the idea that she had talked to somebody from his last school. School. But then she breaks down and says, I have such doubts. But I don't think it's that she has doubts about him. I think it's that she has doubts about, like, the world and her function within it and what people in power do. I don't know. These are new things also, that I also felt like when I was seeing these scenes performed in college or reading this script when I was in high school, when I. When she says, I have such doubts, I always took it to mean, like, oh, she was so confident. But then in a. In a moment of weakness, does she really believe all the things she believes, or does she really have doubts? And now I'm like, no, no. She hated that guy and he needed to go and she knew it. The doubts are about, like, the world and God and men and power and the religious structures that have given her life meaning, but are also these institutions which protect the people who don't need to be protected and leave vulnerable the people who need to be. To be protected.

Matt Koplik (53:03)

Like, 1000% ye.

Alessandra Gordon (53:05)

That's the.

Matt Koplik (53:05)

I don't know, that's.

Alessandra Gordon (53:06)

Maybe I'm stupid for saying what is obvious, but, like, I didn't know that until.

Matt Koplik (53:10)

I think that's how Cherry Jones played it, which is why you and I walk away with that. Because the way Meryl plays it in the movie, it is. It does feel more like she's got doubts about what actions. Yes.

Alessandra Gordon (53:19)

Yeah, totally.

Matt Koplik (53:20)

And the fact that that's how a lot of people interpret it, just from reading the text. I don't know if that's a Shanley thing. I don't know if that's just an us thing. But, yeah, like, I. For the first time, watching Terry Jones in that final scene, I was like, oh, I think it's more that she has doubts about everything else. Like, why. Like, why must this have happened? Why did I have to do everything I did for something correct to happen?

Alessandra Gordon (53:40)

Like, why did I have to spend six months of my life throwing myself against a brick wall to get even just this to happen? And also, like, there's a line earlier in the show where Sister James says that, like, having these doubts and these suspicions of me has made me feel further from God. And Sister Alice is like, yeah, that'll happen. Every time you have a doubt, you do take a step further from God, but you do it in his service. And, like, that also really stuck out. Stuck. That stuck out to me this time, especially in regards to that last line of saying, I have such doubts of just being, like, do I always need to be this, like, lone ranger who must sacrifice all of their personal connections on this planet in order to, like, do what is right and good? I do feel further from God. I feel further from the simple life that I, like, kind of wanted in which, like, I have a religious society that gives me, like, purpose and meaning and community. And instead I'm like, the lone wolf. Yeah, But I think it's the godly thing to do.

Matt Koplik (54:39)

The irony is that the easier thing is usually not the right thing, and it just get. But. But in a snowball effect, by not doing the right thing earlier, it just makes it harder down the line and you keep on. And people will keep on choosing to do the easy thing, and it just leads to further complications. Right. If everyone would kind of buckle down, do what was correct earlier, we would have fewer repercussions in the future, and it would be easier to do the right thing down the line. But it keeps getting harder because there are still people who will always go with what is best for them. And that's something that Aloysius even accuses Sister James of. Because again, Sister James then tries to flip the conversation Aloysius about these accusations. And the Sister James doesn't make the accusation. She sees something and she says something. And Aloysius here's all she needs to hear to know what happened. And James doesn't want to believe it's true. And she points the finger at Aloysius saying, you just don't like Father Flynn and you are letting that make you believe something terrible. And Aloysius comes back at her and she says, you just want peace and order because you want to go back to, like, your Disney life rather than understand that terrible things happen in the world and in this school and it's up to us to fix it because no one else will. And they're, in a way, they are both right. Would Aloysius be so easy to jump to this conclusion if she didn't already dislike Father Flynn? But then what we learn is he says, like, what made you so certain that I was a bad person from the get go? Like, before this? Like, you didn't like me before any of this ever happened? What was it that did it for you? And ultimately, it's a lot of tiny things that makes Aloysius understand. It's like, it's the small things that you have to keep an eye out to. Go, like, that's weird. That's weird. And the. But the. The inciting incident for her was also a small thing. And she says to him, it was the first day of school and you went up to one of our young male students and like, I guess, like, touched him on the knee or something.

Alessandra Gordon (56:36)

It was his wrist.

Matt Koplik (56:37)

He liked.

Alessandra Gordon (56:38)

She, like, grabbed his wrist and she, like, jerked away in a very, like.

Matt Koplik (56:41)

Yeah, he didn't just, like, jump. He, like, threw it away from him. That. And that was just like, this kid's gut impulse from being touched by this man. And he's like, what the fuck does that mean? That's nothing. I took.

Alessandra Gordon (56:55)

I just touched a guy. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Koplik (56:57)

I touched the student. And. And he got defensive and was taken by surprise. And she's. And she's like, no, the. She's like. And you and I both know that it's more than that. And it's. Yeah, it's.

Alessandra Gordon (57:07)

And it's again, like, I. Now that I'm getting older and I'm turning into my mom in so many ways, but just like, being older, too. Like, when I first read. I remember I read this play probably shortly after it was published. Probably, like in the year, like 2006. I remember I was reading it around the same time I was reading Proof because I started. I joined an acting class for teenagers that was like, quote unquote serious. It was like, we're gonna take this really seriously. No kid plays. Fun. Whatever.

Matt Koplik (57:34)

I was in something similar. I actually got to do the prior Harper scene from Angels at the age of 17.

Alessandra Gordon (57:39)

I would have died to do that. I did the Catherine Hal scene where she has that monologue about how she found all her dad's notebooks and stuff. I don't know. I loved it. I felt so important.

Matt Koplik (57:53)

Yeah. I actually need to go watch Proof because I've. I haven't even read it. I've seen girls do monologues. Sorry. I've seen women do monologues from it, but I've never actually watched it. And I was gonna possibly cover Proof on here because it's.

Alessandra Gordon (58:05)

I love Proof. I'll come back for proof.

Matt Koplik (58:07)

Well, we'll see. We'll see. It depends on if I can't get other shows covered because I've been having trouble getting people to.

Alessandra Gordon (58:12)

I thought you're gonna say, it depends on if I can't get other girls to come in and talk about Proof.

Matt Koplik (58:17)

Well, I originally wanted you to do what the Constitution means to me, and then you did a hard pivot, and you're like, let's do Doubt. I was like, okay, that sounds like more fun.

Alessandra Gordon (58:23)

Anyway, I, I. Well, okay, full disclosure. It's because I was thinking about Philip Seymour Hoffman, because we had just. We have just passed his. The anniversary of his passing. We, like, the date was around there, and I saw a video of just, like, clips from his performances, basically made to be like, look at this unbelievable, indelible mark on X acting. And there were clips from Doubt. And I was like, oh, that's Doubt.

Matt Koplik (58:48)

That's how I ended up like, let's do some dude. But that said, like, there are some. There are certain shows that I'm trying to cover, like, for colored girls. And oddly enough, once on this island that, like, no one wants to touch and.

Alessandra Gordon (59:03)

Yeah, sounds like the best show of all time.

Matt Koplik (59:05)

Well, I have a lot of white guests who are like, I don't think that's right for me to cover. I'm like, it's written by white people. Like, it's. It's fine. And it's, like, not really about race. It's the Little Mermaid set in the Caribbean like this. It's fine.

Alessandra Gordon (59:17)

It's about trees.

Matt Koplik (59:19)

It's about. It's about a tree. It's about a tree and mosquitoes. But that's to say there are some shows that might end up getting switched out. I have most of the shows I have covered, but I like two or three shows that are get finding trickiness with. So I don't know, maybe I'll switch for color girls out and be like, Ali Gordon, come back and talk about proof. But anyway, you're saying you were doing the serious acting class at like 16, 17, and that's when you read Doubt?

Alessandra Gordon (59:42)

Yes, and that's when I read Doubt. And at the time I was like, wow, this play is so crazy because I do have doubt at the end of it. And now that I'm older, I'm like, oh, yeah, no, if I saw a kid react like that when an adult touched them, I would have the exact same fucking thought. But that's because I'm older. And like, when I was 16, I didn't necessarily have that experience of the world yet. And now as a person who's like, you know, functioned in the world for 30 odd years, I also know what it's like to get on a subway car and without any provocation go, I can't sit over there. That person's looking at me weird. And I go to the other side and like, my. My senses are honed in a way that they weren't when I was 16, nor should they be. Because when you're 16, you're just fucking growing and like you're supposed to learn about the world. And it makes me sad when I see students who are. Who have those walls up so firmly already at that age because it means something's happened, which really is sad. And so like, I just had a totally different experience reading this play as an older person because my first experience hearing that all she needed to start this campaign against him was the way one kid yanked his arm back. I was like, oh, interesting. I thought she had concrete proof. And now I'm like, that was concrete proof. But that's totally sold.

Matt Koplik (61:01)

That's how the mothers of the world. That's how the mothers of the world walk out of that sh. Show every night and go, he did it.

Alessandra Gordon (61:06)

Yeah.

Matt Koplik (61:06)

Because all the mothers of the world are like, you know, I get that. I see that because it's people who have not either experienced that kind of trauma or are not in touch with finding the microcosms to look out for will look at that moment and be like, that's silly. Why would you do that? But those of us who know to recognize the microaggressions because they ultimately will lead you to a path of greater transgressions. And understand like, that is. That is some. That is something real for a child who doesn't know this man to have, like, their immediate reaction be an a. Pull away. I mean, it's sort of like the, like, you know how like, bees and dogs can smell fear. Like children who haven't been. Who are. Who have not really been out in the world yet, but can sense danger. Like, that child just sensed something. And what this, what this father does with Donald, the lone black student, is he. He locates a vulnerable lone wolf with.

Alessandra Gordon (62:12)

No support system, no support system in.

Matt Koplik (62:14)

The school who's already being kicked and weakened, and he takes him in. And if this were a kinder story, it would be him giving him the tools to grow and be better and stronger and, you know, be able to survive in this school. And there's. It's entirely possible he does give him some of those things.

Alessandra Gordon (62:32)

Well, the part that I think is very interesting and was a very. I thought it was a very respectable move on the part of the playwright, as far as, like, adding some complication, is that at first, when Sister Aloysius is like, is Donald being bullied? Sister James is like, no. And she's like, he's our first black student. He's getting bullied whether or not you realize it or not. And she's like, I swear, like, he doesn't seem to have a lot of friends, but he doesn't seem like he's being targeted or singled out. And that's because he has the protection of Father Flynn, because Father Flynn has taken him under his wing. And so the other kids aren't going to go corner him and, you know, beat him up or something like that, if even if that's something they wanted to do before because they know they're getting in trouble with the priest and that's not what they're gonna do. Yeah, so it's this weird two pronged thing where, like, he is protecting him in a way, he's also absolutely and totally violating him. But, like, he's. This kid is in such a vulnerable position that he can seem like a savior to him by offering him this protection. And the protection is real. It's not even a lie. Like, it's not even him being like, hey, stick with me, kid, and I'll make sure kids don't bother to bother you. That's true. It. It does come to fruition. He does, quote, unquote, protect him from this possibility.

Matt Koplik (63:54)

Did you see or read how I learned to drive.

Alessandra Gordon (63:56)

Yes.

Matt Koplik (63:56)

Okay, first of all, incredible play. One of my favorite Pulitzer winners of, like, the last 40 years. But I connected very deeply to it because the relationship that Lil Bit has with her uncle is very similar to the man who, you know, groomed me in high school in the sense of, like, it is a person of. Who's older, has some authority, who recognizes your isolation from the pack, that you're like little Bits. Family does not get her. None of them read.

Alessandra Gordon (64:23)

They're not intellectual, and they're able to say that you are special. And they're able to say, and not only you are not being appreciated in the right way, and I can appreciate you in the right way, but also.

Matt Koplik (64:33)

Gives you things that actually help you. So like with Lil Bit's uncle, he, like, gives her books to read and helps motivate her to apply for college. And like, all these things that help her grow as a hu. As an adult, which adds to the complications of the trauma and the violations because they're both tied to one person. And it's like, well, I do have all these things that I'm grateful for that have made me a better person, but they're also tied to things that have stunted me in a lot of other ways. And so, yeah, with Donald, he gets the protection from Father Flynn while also having a major violation happen to him. And he has no support from anywhere else because, as we learn from the scene with his mother. So Aloysius calls upon Donald's mother to come into the school, thinking that she will then have an advocate with her to take down Father Flynn. And, oh, boy, is she wrong.

Alessandra Gordon (65:20)

Right. But it's, It's. It's an. Again, it's a really amazing scene writing wise and, like, empathy wise on the part of John Patrick Shanley, because, like, it's not what you want. You have this spectator fantasy that Sister Aloysius is going to say, I think your son is being targeted and sexually preyed upon at school. And the mom's going to be like, let's get them. And instead she's like, we just have to last till June. And you are so stunned at first because you. You want things to be simple, you want things to be righteous, you want things to be. Have a clear path forward. But instead we find out that this. That potentially changing schools would potentially wreck this family socioeconomically. It's a school where he's not being physically targeted and he doesn't have that promise at another school. Also, the mother suspects that their son is Gay and has had problems at last schools where students have targeted him for that on top of his skin color. And so like, he's just in. He is truly between a rock and a hard place. There is no real winning for this family because, like, not only is there the inequities of like being this woman in this male dominated whatever, then you get to add on another level of like, like, what if it's not just race, it's not just socioeconomic status, it's not just, you know, sex, gender, whatever you want to, blah, blah, blah. It's like when all of those things converge in an intersectional way, it like, makes it so much messier and there's like no real correct answer because like, when you are under the thumb of so many different kinds of oppression, like, even getting out, even clawing out one direction only makes the weight heavier on another direction. Yeah, mixed metaphor, sorry about that. But like, do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's so interesting that Sister Aloysius is like, it sucks being a woman in this, in this convent because I don't have respect. And then she's like, and then, you know, you, you meet Donald's mother and it's like, yeah, well, how about all these other things too? Because even if we get what we want and this father goes away, what about all the other things that are like, pressing down on me and my family? Like, there's no winning here. Like, yeah, you can't expect me to tell you how to win this. There's no winning. She.

Matt Koplik (67:33)

So again they, the question keeps coming back to like, well, why don't we ask Donald? And Aloysius says, we won't do that. He'll protect you because you've been protecting him. It's embarrassing for the child to have to discuss this. He's the only black student here. Like, we're not, we're not putting that pressure on the, on the boy. And it is sort of a double edged sword of like, she is thinking about Donald's mental health. Of like, let's not confront him with this. But also she knows she won't get what she wants if they confront him, which is why she kind of has always has to throw the rulebook out. And I think she also, she calls on Donald's mother partly because it's the right thing to do, but also because she does think she's going to get a partner in crime about this. I'll talk to his mother. When she finds out how her son's being violated, she's Going to go into mama bear mode. And together we will take down Father Flynn. And as you mentioned, that is not what happens. Because whereas Sister Aloysius has tried to she, in a weird way, we see her try to do to Donald's mother what Father Flynn does to Sister James and fail at it. Of like, try. She tries to be like, let's connect as women, let's connect as two people who care about the well being of this child. And the Donald's mother is like, you don't know what it's like for me every day. You don't know what we have to go through. And you know, Father Flynn originally says the reason why Donald had wine on his breath was that the janitor caught him drinking. And I took him into the office and scolded him and said, I won't take you off of, you know, the altar boys if it never happens again. But like, I'm going to be watching you. And eventually Aloysius finds out from the janitor, like that's not really the sequence of events. What happened was like the janitor saw Donald after the fact and also smelled the wine on his breath and assumed he was drinking beforehand but like never actually saw him drinking and told Father Flynn. And so when Donald's mother tells her, yes, you know, eventually it had to come out that Donald drank the altar wine and got taken off of altar boys and his father beat him that night. Eventually it's revealed that that's not why Donald was beaten by his father. It's because both of Donald's parents have the suspicions that Donald is probably gay. And it's as you said, like he was targeted for that at his last school. And that is why his father not only beat him that night, but has beaten him other nights of trying to toughen him up, making him more of a man. And in their very limited 1960s America Catholic way, you know, the idea of Donald possibly being gay is already kind of shameful enough. But when, when Sister Aloysia says he has your son and Donald's mother shouts, let him have him.

Alessandra Gordon (70:13)

Yeah.

Matt Koplik (70:14)

She says it sort of in a multitude of ways. Viola Davis says it sort of like in an angry way. I remember she like kind of shouts like, let him have him. And then I remember Adrian Lennox says it kind of, sort of helplessly. She's like, I don't know, let him have him. Like, my son has no protection anywhere else. Not at home, not in school. This one man who has authority, cares about him, who actually, I don't care why. And like we are in survival mode. Donald has to make it to the end of the year because then he will go off to high school and you know, from here he can go to, he can go to a good high school and if he maintains his grades, he is a good student, he could be the first man in our family to go to college and he can actually make something of himself. It's like it's all worth it if he makes something of himself. And Aloysius is like, is it though your son is going to have this like trauma on him forever.

Alessandra Gordon (71:01)

But it's also that thing of like, even if it's like well intentioned in some way or another of like a mother's love of just being like, all he has to do is suffer through this for six months and then he can have a better life forever. And like this might even be terrible. Maybe I can even admit that this is wrong and terrible. But it's temporary because a good life will be permanent. Like you can understand where like the mother's love part of that comes in, even if you disagree. But then there's also that thing on top of it of like, does she see him being gay as a perversion when there's like this like Catholic probably. Does he see, does she assume that he and Father Flynn share this same perversion and so they're actually allies to each other and it's not a horribly manipulative thing where the priest is completely preying upon an innocent boy who shouldn't be in this position, but that because they're both potentially maybe gay, they like share a thing that she doesn't understand. So it's more mature that. Do you know what I'm saying? Like I'm sure you.

Matt Koplik (72:02)

No, I think it's.

Alessandra Gordon (72:03)

People say things like that before where like, because they assume they like equate gay with being perverse, the whole pedophilia thing goes out the window because they're like, no, no, no, it's just gay.

Matt Koplik (72:13)

Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (72:13)

You know what I mean? Like, like the, you forget the power imbalance thing too.

Matt Koplik (72:16)

Like it's, it's the same thing as in again how I learned to drive when Little Bit's aunt, her like biological aunt who's married to her uncle is talking to the audience and her viewpoint is that Little Bit is, has been seducing her uncle this entire time that like their connection is not a grown man preying on a child. It is too. It's a broken man and a more mature than she lets on child, you know, having this connection that is wrong. But she blames the victim just as much as, you know, anyone, as everyone else would blame the predator. It's also in Blackbird. I don't know if you ever saw the play Blackbird.

Alessandra Gordon (72:57)

Blackbird, I don't think I have.

Matt Koplik (72:59)

It was Alison Pill and Jeff Daniels off Broadway, then Michelle Williams and Jeff Daniels on Broadway. And it was like a 20 something year old woman tracks down this like 50 something year old man in his office. And like they go into a conference room in his office when everyone else has gone for the day and they basically rehash the fact that like 20 years prior, no, I guess 15 years prior, they had had a sexual relationship when she was 12, about to be 13, and he was like 35 and she was the daughter of his landlord and they connected and then they ended up running off together. But then like he left her because he realized he was, she was too afraid that people were going to find out about what was going on with them and left her. And then she had to call the cops so her father could get her. And then he got arrested for all these years. But when he was brought in front of the judge, instead of getting a life sentence, he got like three years in prison. Because from all the facts of the story, the judge determined that what had actually happened was that she was more sexually and mentally advanced as a 13 year old. So it, even though it was legally pedophilia and statutory rape.

Alessandra Gordon (74:04)

Right.

Matt Koplik (74:04)

Could understand how this, her intent was.

Alessandra Gordon (74:07)

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Matt Koplik (74:08)

He was seducing this 30 something year old man and he was weak and vulnerable and you know, we will not punish him the rest of his life for this. He will go away for a year or two and go. And it's like, no, I mean like.

Alessandra Gordon (74:19)

And that's so, that's like so real. Like you can read about that happening anywhere.

Matt Koplik (74:23)

Well, this, and this is what Donald's mother is kind of implying, which says, I think my son, maybe my son is this way. And she doesn't say it out loud, but it is this implication of like, you know, we, we all have our thoughts on sort of this way, being Catholic in the 1960s in America, which is to say none of them think highly of it. And if it is this kind of perversion, like whatever happens behind closed doors is none of my business, it's wrong anyway. So it might as well be wrong with someone.

Alessandra Gordon (74:53)

Right? It's wrong. It would be wrong if it was a kid his age. It'd be wrong if it's this priest.

Matt Koplik (74:57)

It'd be wrong if you were older and, like, not right.

Alessandra Gordon (74:59)

Exactly.

Matt Koplik (74:59)

So, like, who cares? And the ends will justify the means. He will be protected till the end of the year. He will go to a good school and have a good life, and it's all. And it's all gonna be fine. We just have to make it through. And what, like, just sort of whatever it takes. Whatever it takes. And it is that survivor mode. And again, of, like, repressing the trauma in order to get further along. But if you aren't acknowledging the wrongdoings early on, the repercussions are just going to get worse down the road. So maybe Donald will get to go to a good college and get a degree, but he is going to have mental issues for the rest of his life because of what went down and because no one properly helped him heal through it.

Alessandra Gordon (75:39)

Right. I've been like. And also, like, being a product of its time, like, I really don't think the overwhelming opinion, psychologically speaking, was that, like, these are scars that these kids will try, will carry.

Matt Koplik (75:52)

No one's thinking about that.

Alessandra Gordon (75:53)

It's like, no one's thinking about that. That's like, a very modern understanding of this kind of trauma and, like, coercion and stuff like that. Like, most people are just sort of like, well, that sucked. Yeah, suck it up, bucko, and get back out there. Or that thing of, like, that polite sort of like, let's not talk about that ever again. And let's just make sure that that doesn't affect us going forward, because that. That sucked. But it's over now. So let's. Let's just, as a family, never acknowledge that that ever happened.

Matt Koplik (76:22)

Yes. And, yeah, people still do that.

Alessandra Gordon (76:26)

Yeah. But, like, it certainly is, like, we. We definitely have more of a societal understanding of power imbalances and, like, lasting emotional trauma. Yeah. Now, how that affects people on, like, a familial level will probably differ from family to family, but, like, at least, like, in the grand umbrella of, like, society, we have a much different understanding than we did in 1964.

Matt Koplik (76:53)

You don't say.

Alessandra Gordon (76:55)

Okay, thanks. Just. Just trying to give a little context to our Gen Z listeners out there. I assume you have some.

Matt Koplik (77:03)

I assume. I don't know who listens to this podcast. It's. I have people who will, like, reach out to me and I'll go, oh, that's fun. But I'm always surprised when it's, like, wildly different ages. I actually. I do know that I have Gen Z years. I do know that. I do know that for A fact.

Alessandra Gordon (77:18)

I just like, I teach teenagers and I am quite consistently surprised by one, the maturity and like understanding and empathy levels of like current day teenagers in terms of like being socially open minded, but also as sort of the like flip side of that, how little sometimes they understand how different it was even like a decade ago.

Matt Koplik (77:44)

Oh yeah, I literally just watched a video essay on YouTube about the birdcage, which love. Yeah, first of all, yes, you and I both love that movie very much and I have always maintained that it holds up incredibly well. Like it's, it is. It is also the best version of that story of the La Cage.

Alessandra Gordon (78:03)

I agree.

Matt Koplik (78:04)

Of the play, the musical, the French film. I think it was absolutely the best one. And the video essay really kind of talks about how yet it like it already holds up today. Like just watching it with the, with the care and understanding and the humanity that those creatives had at the time in the 90s helps keep that movie evergreen. But it's especially important for young viewers to watch it understanding where the world was at in 1996 when it was made. Why like certain events in the story are actually very plausible in 1996 as opposed to now. Like Gen Z would watch the movie be like, well, why wouldn't they just be upfront about it from the get go? Like, who, like, who cares? Fuck those conservatives. Like, why should they lie? And it's like you do have to understand sort of like what queer life was still considered of in the 1990s, how it was even considered 15 years ago. Like it's so crazy to think, you know, like 12 years ago drag was very much like a, A not contact sport. It was not considered cool. It was not considered. Yeah, it was not considered cool, not considered glamorous. It. We really can't emphasize enough the cultural impact that drag race has had on drag culture. It is now considered a viable career and a, and a pathway to fame. And it's on. And it's the same thing of queer culture like 10 years ago, 15 years ago. Like it has. The queer community has become much more prominent in the world and our, and the public perception has shifted exponentially since the mid-90s. But it's, I mean it cannot be emphasized enough how works like the Birdcage and drag race really do kind of help impact those sort of things. Because in, at the time the Doubt takes place, there were no such things. We didn't even have the Boys in the band yet, which came out in 1969, which was one of the, which was one of the first Major artistic works about queer life. And Boys in the Band is not a happy representation. The Boys in the Band is basically saying, like, oh, yeah, you married people think that, you know, who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf Is relatable. Like, well, guess what? We have our own who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Like, we are just as unhappy as the rest of you.

Alessandra Gordon (80:14)

And when did Harvey Fierstein write Torch Song Trilogy? Because I know you just talked about it early 80s.

Matt Koplik (80:19)

So torch song trilogy had a three year journey. The play premiered on Broadway in, I believe the summer of 82. Maybe summer of 81. Summer of 82. But he wrote the first act. He wrote international stud in 79. And then. Yeah, it was 82 because it was 79 was international stud. 1980 was fugue in a nursery. And then 81 was widows and Children First. And then someone was like, hey, let's put all three together. And that became Torch Song Trilogy. And then that was off Off Broadway. Then it moved to the Actors Playhouse, I think, February of 82, and then moved to Broadway in July of 82.

Alessandra Gordon (80:59)

Do you. This is a loaded question because.

Matt Koplik (81:01)

Give me that load, Ali.

Alessandra Gordon (81:02)

Do you feel. Here comes the load. Do you feel that film was ahead of theater in portraying, like, the interior lives of queer people? Or do you think theater was ahead of film?

Matt Koplik (81:19)

Theater was ahead of film 1000%.

Alessandra Gordon (81:22)

What about like something like Midnight Cowboy being in 1969, though Midnight Cowboy isn't.

Matt Koplik (81:27)

Really a representation of queer life. And the little bits of queer life that is in there is looked at as a bit of a perversion.

Alessandra Gordon (81:34)

Like, John, like, don't you feel that at the end of the movie that what you are meant to feel leaving it is that it's not a perversion and that it's like, it's like a.

Matt Koplik (81:42)

It's.

Alessandra Gordon (81:42)

It would have been these men's savior like that if. If they were able to embrace something like this, they would have not been in the situation that they were. Sorry, again, this is a really loaded question.

Matt Koplik (81:52)

Yeah, like, I think, honestly, it has been. It's been a second since I watched Midnight Cowboy. So, like, I remember just most of the gay men in that. In that movie being referred to as fags. And I remember Bob Balaban blowing Jon Voight in the theater and then immediately throwing up afterwards, which I. I always was confused as to how that happened. It was because Jon Voight was simply so hung that it, like ruined Bob Balaban's gag reflex.

Alessandra Gordon (82:17)

I mean, that is what you're supposed to believe. You're supposed to believe this guy is mega hung.

Matt Koplik (82:21)

Yeah. And so, yeah, Bob Balaban just couldn't handle all of it and had to throw up.

Alessandra Gordon (82:26)

I don't know, perhaps I'm taking this too far off course, but, like, I don't.

Matt Koplik (82:30)

No, we'll bring it back to Donald, but no, I don't. I think theater was ahead of film, very much so. I think the. Because with theater, the ball was able to roll a lot faster because there's been queer representation on stage, even if it was coded since the 40s.

Alessandra Gordon (82:51)

Right.

Matt Koplik (82:53)

What's his face? Court Jester. Danny. Danny Kay. And lady in the Dark is one of the earliest documented cases of a queer character in a Broadway show, even if it's not outwardly said that he's queer.

Alessandra Gordon (83:07)

Oh, yeah. And also, of course. Oh, my God, the. The play with the women. Oh my God, the play with the women. Yeah, there's a really famous lesbian play that.

Matt Koplik (83:17)

Oh, Children's Hour.

Alessandra Gordon (83:19)

Thank you. Yes, thank you.

Matt Koplik (83:20)

Yes, Children's Hour. Like those all started and. And it all kind of culminated in the end of the 60s with boys in the Band and Hair being like, main, not mainstream, like popular works in New York that had queer characters. And then it got even further with the Chorus Line, which became a national sensation and had a very openly gay. Had a couple of openly gay characters in it, one of whom was sort of like the gateway drug for a lot of straight audience to be like, oh, my God, that poor soul.

Alessandra Gordon (83:53)

For him. Yeah, family connection.

Matt Koplik (83:56)

Because you can very much pinpoint all the major stepping stones in Broadway where, like, queer representation just like added another brick to being an acceptable story for audiences.

Alessandra Gordon (84:06)

And it all culminated, of course, with Smile.

Matt Koplik (84:09)

Of course. Yes. Everyone saw Smile and they're like gay now.

Alessandra Gordon (84:13)

Exactly.

Matt Koplik (84:13)

Smile. And Evita just turned people gay. But yeah, like, because then we have Torch Song and then we have the musical version of La Cage, which I don't really think brought much insight into queer culture so much as it just like showed Broadway you can have a gay story be profitable and also happy and happy.

Alessandra Gordon (84:31)

That's a big thing because like, like the point of that is that they are in this healthy, long lasting relationship that went through a little rocky patch due to all this crazy stuff. But like, at the end, they walk off hand in hand, song in the sand reprise, and nobody dies.

Matt Koplik (84:47)

I'm trying. Like, there aren't a lot of queer stories in theater and also in film that are like, are pure joy. Usually there's like some kind of heartbreak in there, some trauma, but also I think that's because a lot of the queer journey does involve trauma. It's about how you sort of persevere and continue to find the joy. And now we're getting a lot of queer works that are sort of flavorless, which I accept just because, like, the more stories we have, the better it is. But like, you know, like the Love Simons, where, you know, I know a lot of people were pissed off that Love Simon came out. They're like, we're not just like, you fuck off. I'm like, listen, it's good that queer people have our own boring high school movie, you know?

Alessandra Gordon (85:27)

Yeah, some for it. Sometimes I think people need to realize that you need to take a step back and sometimes go, is this bad or am I not the intended audience? I think people don't ask themselves that enough because you might not be a 14 year old boy and you might just like need to be like, hey.

Matt Koplik (85:44)

I talked about maybe you're not a.

Alessandra Gordon (85:45)

14 year old boy. Maybe this one's not for you.

Matt Koplik (85:48)

We're not Catholic nuns. We don't know that doubt is for us. But we. I mentioned this in Love Valor Compassion episode and I'll sort of bring it up again for a second and then we'll go back fully, fully to doubt. It's getting. We're kind of coming back around it in the way that, you know, all public perception does like these pendulum swings. But queer audiences are getting a little bit better now at understanding that not every movie or play that comes out has to perfectly represent their lives as a gay man. And thus they don't have to come out and try to cancel it or, like, have a hot take of, like, here's why this thing is problematic.

Alessandra Gordon (86:20)

This weirdly comes back to what I was saying earlier of, like, my enjoyment of Strange Loop wasn't that it was so universal that, oh my gosh, even I can see myself in this story. I don't. But thank you for an honest representation of your fucking life. I learned something. It was enjoyable. You are clearly making exactly what you wanted to make in a way that was not constrained by some other shitty people being like, I don't like that part. Take that part out. It was like somebody being like, this is what I wanted to make. This is exactly what I wanted to say. This is the language I wanted to use and I wanted to use it in this way specifically. And I'm gonna fucking do it. And that's why, like, I loved it so much. I, like, was very moved by it, but not because I was like, I did that too. That's my life. This was for me. Do you know what I'm saying?

Matt Koplik (87:09)

Yeah. Well, first of all, I think you absolutely are in with Daddy from Strange Loop. I don't see how you don't see yourself.

Alessandra Gordon (87:15)

Thank you so much.

Matt Koplik (87:18)

You're very welcome. No, absolutely. I think that there's power in stories that we immediately identify with. Power in stories that we don't identify with, but can still take. Catharsis from any way, empathy from. And also just like the power of a good story, of. Of enjoying a work that is well made and inventive and. And new. There was a time with gay audiences because our stories were so rare that when something came out and was good, we came out in droves to support it. So, like, part of the reason why Torch Song trilogy blew up was because gay audiences ran to see it off Broadway and then ran to see it on Broadway. Love, Valor, Compassion, you know, was a hit because the gay audiences supported it so in full. And that helped straight audiences come in and see it as well, because that became like the hot ticket for a minute. And then I guess it was post Milk where this really started to happen, where, like movies or plays would come out. And it's like, well, that's not my story. And not only that, like, if it was about a gay white person, it became like, well, we need more bipoc stories. Like, first of all, we always need more bipoc stories. That's never in doubt. That's never in doubt. A parable.

Alessandra Gordon (88:24)

Doubt a parable.

Matt Koplik (88:25)

Yeah, it's never in doubt. A parable. But like, I remember one of the major issues people had with the inheritance was that it was about like wealthy white people, white gays. And I was like. And I was like, well, first of all, it's based off of Howards End. So the only way you can make Howards End work as a modern day story is if some of these characters have money.

Alessandra Gordon (88:40)

Because that's just right. That's like what has to be the base reality.

Matt Koplik (88:44)

Exactly. Like, you can't do a modern Pride and Prejudice without having Darcy be rich. I'm so sorry. It's part of the fabric of the story. But I remember, like, Matthew Lopez was asked about this, like, do you agree with the criticisms about this? He's like, first of all, he's like, I'm a Latin gay man. It should be like, everyone should be supportive enough that like, I was able to get a play on Broadway. Like, that doesn't happen often. He goes. And on top of that he's like, I shouldn't have to write a story that relates to everyone. I should write the story that I think matters, that I can make good. And hopefully people enjoy it and not take it as a political it's about me moment. And maybe it's like. And I hope that it inspires then a writer to write their journey. And then we do get, like, 10 more BIPOC gay stories next year, and then 20 more the year after that. And we can. And I've said we should always look at these things as part of a tapestry of storytelling. Right. Like, not each story is representative of everyone. Each story on its own comes together to, you know, show different elements of every community. And to be fair, a lot of gay audiences, over time, we take a step back, like, two years later of the thing coming out and be like, oh, I can now recognize that Love Simon is connected to Milk, which is connected to Brokeback Mountain, which is connected to the Birdcat.

Alessandra Gordon (89:57)

Totally.

Matt Koplik (89:57)

Which is connected to Boys in the Bed.

Alessandra Gordon (89:59)

The tapestry.

Matt Koplik (89:59)

Yes, it's all the tapestry. Doubt, a Parable, is connected to the Flying Nun.

Alessandra Gordon (90:04)

Wow. Billy, I beg to differ with you.

Matt Koplik (90:06)

How do you mean?

Alessandra Gordon (90:07)

You're the top.

Matt Koplik (90:07)

Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (90:09)

You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet. If you look at John Patrick Shanley's contribution to the American theater, you know, Doubt is a big one because it won a Pulitzer Prize. But, like, it's not. It's not his greed against religion or his admission of what happened in his childhood. You know what I mean? Like, it's just one installation in his ongoing career. And so I'm always sort of hesitant to be like, what does this play say about you specifically? What are you trying to make me? You know what I'm saying? Like, sometimes. Sometimes a playwright just writes a really good play.

Matt Koplik (90:55)

Yeah. Well, so it is, I think, one of the more personal plays in his life because, I mean, Shanley's career is weird. I was looking at it, I was like, what made John Patrick Shanley blow up? And there were two things that really did it. And then he never kind of captured it again for a while until that. Because Danny and the Deep Blue Sea was like his big off Broadway, like.

Alessandra Gordon (91:13)

Talk about scenes you did in college, baby. Wow. Danny and the Deep Blue Sea. Sea.

Matt Koplik (91:18)

Oh, everyone does Danny and the Deep Blue Sea.

Alessandra Gordon (91:20)

I hate that. Sorry, sorry, sorry to this man, but I am not about Danny and the Deep Blue Sea.

Matt Koplik (91:25)

I'm not either, but I also don't know if that's just overexposure from bad high school college acting, but I don't.

Alessandra Gordon (91:30)

Think it's all that very bad.

Matt Koplik (91:32)

But that was sort of the thing that kind of, I don't think, launched him because it's not like he became this prominent playwright after that came out, but, like, he was able to get more works produced after that, but. And he had one play that I ran for, like, six months. I can't remember the name of it, but he never had, like, a huge, huge theater success where everyone's like, what's the next shammy gonna be? It was. He just. He all of a sudden, like, became established in the theater community, but always, like, all these off Broadway plays. And I think he wrote one movie, and then he wrote Moonstruck, and Moonstruck won him the Oscar and was, like, a ginormous hit. And Moonstruck is great. It's one of my favorite rom coms.

Alessandra Gordon (92:08)

Oh, hell, yeah.

Matt Koplik (92:09)

It's such an unconventional rom com. It's like all these people who should never. All these characters who have no business. Business being in a romantic comedy. And that's what makes it so special. It's all these characters who, like, should be in every other genre but a rom com, and they.

Alessandra Gordon (92:23)

The other thing that's fun about Don Patrick Shanley is his sort of, like, love and insistence on all of his protagonists sort of being these bizarre New Yorkers, which, like, I obviously feel an emotional connection to. Like, almost all of his plays take place in the Bronx or have a character that is from the Bronx because he's in the Bronx or Brooklyn, but, like, you know, Moonstruck is like Brooklyn, but also, like, Doubt takes place in the Bronx.

Matt Koplik (92:51)

Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (92:53)

Then the protagonist, character and prodigal son. He's in private school in New Hampshire, but he's from the Bronx. So that's why he's like the weird, rough and tumble weirdo. I don't know. There's just, like, a lot of. It kind of reminds me of. Oh, my gosh. He's another three named playwright Stephen Adley Gurgis. His insistence on, like, he really loves characters who are city folk. He also likes people who are dealing with the complications of, like, poverty. I don't know. Just like, there's, like. There's like, a similar thing there of, like. No, this is the community I want to represent. These are the people I find interesting. Do you know what I'm saying?

Matt Koplik (93:29)

Yeah. Well, so Doubt is not necessarily biographical. Or if it is, he hasn't said as much, but it is the most of his life that he has put into a play.

Alessandra Gordon (93:37)

Yeah.

Matt Koplik (93:37)

Because of his upbringing. Like, and he even said Aloysi is his. No, James. Sister. James is based off of, like, his favorite teacher from Catholic school. And I'm sure it's, like, also based on a lot of stuff that he experienced or saw people experience, which is probably why it is his most successful play, because it's the things you take from your life that you put into your work. So, like, the way I described it, like, when I was writing mine was, you know, you get it out all on the page first. That makes it therapeutic. You then start giving it perspectives from other characters. That makes it cathartic. And then you give it a structure and theatricality, and that's what makes it dramatic. And so it's not like, oh, how good of a playwright can he be if he just wrote what happened? It's like, no, no, no. He had to also give it perspective and structure, and that's what makes him a good writer. It also allows him to heal as a human being by taking things from his life that maybe were not super great. Like, for example, Paula Vogel with How I Learned to Drive, literally taking what happened to her and making it this incredible play. But, like, he. I. I give him respect for taking the people he knew and giving them a voice and giving them a good voice. Because. Because it's one thing to just be, like, slanderous of this person wronged me in my childhood. Fuck them. I'm gonna put them in plan, have everyone hate them. It's like, no, he still gives them edge, which is what makes his writing fascinating.

Alessandra Gordon (95:00)

Yeah. And he makes the. The. The priest character so likable, which is why it's so 1. Believable that he can get away with what he gets away with. If we are to believe he's getting away with what he's getting away with, but also, like, you see him as this, like, real figure that people in a community would exalt and be like, I love his sermons. I think he's such a. You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, it's better writing to make him funny and charming and good at his job and makes the boys laugh when he's teaching them how to play basketball. Like. Like, it's. It's better. It's better, more mature writing, even if it is or isn't autobiographical, to have this concept of the world in which people are multifaceted.

Matt Koplik (95:41)

Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (95:41)

Like, it's. It's just. I don't know. I guess what I'm saying is it's a good play.

Matt Koplik (95:46)

It is a good play. Yeah. It's. It's so much easier if you were a true wolf. But he is. What was it that Katy Perry said about Taylor Swift? She's like Regina George in lamb's clothing or something like that.

Alessandra Gordon (95:57)

I. I have to be honest. I'm not a big follower of the words of Katy Perry. I'm not entirely sure I have this scripture written down.

Matt Koplik (96:06)

So, Alessandra, you did not go see Moulin Rouge and go, oh, yes. The poet laureate Katy Perry has been quoted in Moulin Rouge.

Alessandra Gordon (96:13)

She did ask, quite earnestly, do you ever feel like a plastic bag? And I thought, yes.

Matt Koplik (96:20)

I don't think anyone understands what not understanding the genre is unless you've seen KO Stare in the mirror, coughing up blood from her tuberculosis, grabbing her face like she's in Mother Karaj, going, do you ever feel like a plastic bag?

Alessandra Gordon (96:39)

Which also begs the question, what is plastic?

Matt Koplik (96:45)

Because there was no plastic in Moulin Rouge at the time.

Alessandra Gordon (96:47)

Would love to know what she thinks plastic is in some ways. What's her name? Satine. Satine, yeah. In some ways, she's the greatest thinker of our generation because she did invent mixed plastics.

Matt Koplik (96:59)

She knew. She figured it out.

Alessandra Gordon (97:01)

Recyclables.

Matt Koplik (97:02)

The tragedy is that she died before she could actually invent.

Alessandra Gordon (97:04)

Exactly. While she was dying in his arms, she was like, plastic. He's like, what?

Matt Koplik (97:10)

Classic. It's the way of the future Christian.

Alessandra Gordon (97:12)

Yes. We're gonna keep plastic bags inside of plastic bags under your sink. And he's like, I don't know what you're talking about. And she's like, you'll know in the future.

Matt Koplik (97:20)

No, the inciting incident of Christian and Satine meeting is not that they fall in love. It's that KO Saw Aaron Tobade on stage, and she looked at his face and she went, plastic. And she said, I think that's the way of the future.

Alessandra Gordon (97:31)

Wow. I'm glad you got one good read in, because I know that I knew that every episode isn't complete without you just getting one nice little jab in on t. Bite.

Matt Koplik (97:41)

Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (97:42)

Yeah.

Matt Koplik (97:42)

Oh, God. Yeah. Whatever.

Alessandra Gordon (97:44)

I mean, well, wait. Imagine.

Matt Koplik (97:46)

Imagine T. Vi playing Father Flynn. What would that be like?

Alessandra Gordon (97:49)

Bad. Sorry?

Matt Koplik (97:51)

Well. Well, with a blank slate like that, the audience could truly ask themselves, did he do it, though? I can't imagine someone that dull would molest a child.

Alessandra Gordon (98:00)

Or, like, was somebody there? I don't remember a person.

Matt Koplik (98:05)

Imagine if Annalee Ashford Were her sister Aloysius.

Alessandra Gordon (98:08)

No, I won't actually imagine any of that.

Matt Koplik (98:10)

Can't do it. So we talked a bit about, like, things that took us both by surprise. Watching it on tape, seeing great actors do it and getting all that. I understand why Doubt won the Tony for Best Play and why they won director and actress and supporting actress for Adrian Lennox. I get all that. I understand. I still maintain it should have been Pillow man for play. That is just me. But that's also like, where my taste goes. Like, I know so many people. I know so many people who just don't get McDonough and don't get his tone, don't get his. His acidity. Like, I was very pissed off at the backlash of Three Billboards a few years ago because it just came from people who were not. Who just didn't get how he writes comedy. Because he's. Because McDonough, what he does is he finds the toxicity of mankind, the monstrosities that we are capable of. And he's like, let me show you how this can also be humorous.

Alessandra Gordon (99:11)

Yes.

Matt Koplik (99:13)

So he's not advocating for the. For what people say or what they do. He's just like, people can be awful and crazy. The magic trick is I'm going to make you laugh at it. But Pillow man is sort of him at his absolute best, in my opinion, which is that.

Alessandra Gordon (99:26)

Do you think they'll ever make Pillow Man a movie? Do you think I'll ever adapt it?

Matt Koplik (99:30)

They could try, I really don't think.

Alessandra Gordon (99:32)

I know. It's. It's so right for the stage. It was like born to be on stage. So I'm not. I am not one of those people who's pro. Putting everything into a movie.

Matt Koplik (99:41)

But yeah, I wonder if. What's the name of the guy who did Hereditary in Midsommar Ari Asteroid? I would be interested to see how he would adapt Pillow man for film.

Alessandra Gordon (99:52)

Yeah. Something strange or what's his name? Okay, what's the guy who did Annihilation and Ex Machina and Men?

Matt Koplik (100:01)

Oh, him. I don't know. But yes, I know who you're talking about. Or actually, no, I take that back. I would be interested in Jordan Peele's adaptation of Pillow man because that'd be fierce. Somebody. It has to be someone who understands how to build tension. Someone who can think outside the box, but also someone who will not just do crazy for craziness sake. Like is understands when restraint is necessary. Yeah, because Pillman has some craziness in it. But like, you can't go Wacky and wild all the time. That that play is a miracle because you will laugh one second and then the next second be gasping for breath and doubt. Like, I was invested watching it, but I really think a lot of it came from the power of those four actors. I think the play itself is very strong. But I did not walk away blown away from the play. I think there was a lot to recommend it and there's a lot to learn from Shanley's writing in it. But I. I maintain, like, by the end, especially because, like, how they marketed it and how they discussed it in interviews of, like, you want to walk away with the conversation of, like, what really transpired, who was in the. Right here, like, what?

Alessandra Gordon (101:07)

Yeah, but the older you get, the more you're just like, he's guilty.

Matt Koplik (101:10)

Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (101:10)

And the conversation sort of falls away.

Matt Koplik (101:13)

And I can't tell if, like, Shanley is aware of just how obvious he made it, because I read those. I watch those interviews and I read interviews. He talks about it. And like, I. And I watch the movie and see, like, Philip Seymour Hoffman's performance. And, like, I do think he wants you to have some doubts about it. Just the very fact that none of us saw what happened. And I'm like. But the truth is that Aloysius is onto something where it's not about the concrete big things, it's finding the small things that determine it for you. Like, in the way that Father Flynn finds the small things to charm his way into Sister James and Donald and the rest of the school. Aloysius finds the small things to give her her certainty, you know, and also.

Alessandra Gordon (101:54)

Like, if I remember properly in the movie, they add a couple more things to inspire suspicion in the audience. Like, more even than the show. Because I remember in the show at all is extremely off screen, so to speak. But in the movie, I remember there's like, a part where he's like, in Donald's locker. I don't know, it's just all a little more overt because, like, that's the nature of movies is that, like, you have to show, don't tell. Whereas in a play you can be like, that happened off stage. Let me talk about it now. But like, in a movie, you can't quite do that. And so, like, I. I think the movie is even more on the nose in terms of being like, wow, that guy is obviously a predator. And he's.

Matt Koplik (102:31)

I also remember the movie Shanley also, like, does a lot of weird, like, Dutch angles at things. Like, the phone will ring and it'll Be at a Dutch angle. So it's like, ooh, drama.

Alessandra Gordon (102:40)

And it's like the phone.

Matt Koplik (102:42)

Yeah, the phone.

Alessandra Gordon (102:44)

Yeah.

Matt Koplik (102:44)

Like the. For me, the tension is not in the play, is not about whether he did it or not. The tension is who's going to come out on top in the end. And in the way they. In a weird way, at the end of the play, they both kind of come out on top because Sister Aloysius gets what she wants in the sense that he's no longer at the school, but he also gets what he wants and he gets to continue doing.

Alessandra Gordon (103:03)

Her spirit is really broken.

Matt Koplik (103:05)

Yes. He does not get to be removed from the parish. No one else will ever know why it is that he transferred all these. And, like, he'll.

Alessandra Gordon (103:12)

Right, he's just gonna keep getting away with it for as long as he wants to get away with it for.

Matt Koplik (103:16)

But she does get to protect her school. And that is. And. And in a weird way, like, Donald and his mom still gets. Have, like, Donald be at the school, right? Like, Donald's still at the school. Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (103:26)

I mean, like, that is a big part of too of the scene where Donald's mom is like, then why should my kid have to leave if an adult is doing something wrong? And the. And Sister Alice is like, I agree with you. And she's like, okay, so make that happen. And she's like, I don't know if I can. Yeah, it might be easier for Donald to leave. And she's like, no, it's not fair. It's not fair for my kid's life to suffer for the transgressions of an adult. And Sister Alisha is like, I agree with you. I just don't know what's going to happen there. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, so they get what they wanted, so to speak. I don't know. I will agree that, like, if I think about myself at the age of 15 and I think about the Pillow man and I think about Doubt, Pillow man made a way bigger impression on me. And it definitely was more of a taste shaper for the rest of my, like, life, I would say. I think I, like, doubt more and more as I get older just because of, like, the restraint of the writing and the complexity of the characters and just, like, how good. How good it is as an actor showcase. Like, yeah, he is. He is a playwright who loves actors and is, like, excited to have actors read his shit. And sometimes you read plays where you're just like, and who's acting this? Like, this is not a Play for actors. This was a play that a playwright wrote and hoped somebody would do it like this. These are plays for. For actors. And I really, like, love and respect that. And so, like, the older I get, I think I appreciate doubt more and more for those reasons. Yeah, I really do think it's just, like, a taste thing, because I know people who detest Pillow Man. I don't understand them, but I know that they exist.

Matt Koplik (104:56)

There are people who detest. So I have a friend who detested Kimberly Akimbo, and I'm like, I'm sorry, you cannot like it, but, like, you. He was like. He was like, I hated it so much. Like, how could you. I was like, how could you absolutely hate that show? You cannot like it. It cannot be for you. But, like, there's nothing about it that. That would inspire hatred. Unless you hate joy, unless you hate quality.

Alessandra Gordon (105:18)

Unless you hate Victoria Clark.

Matt Koplik (105:20)

I mean, she and I have beef, but that's between her and I. Wow. Yeah. She and I. Is that the correct grammar? I don't know. I didn't have a. I don't have a Sister Aloysius in my life to give me the proper grammar. I'm a. I'm. I'm of the Jewish persuasion.

Alessandra Gordon (105:32)

Yeah. Nobody. Everyone was like, here, have ballpoint pens for everyone.

Matt Koplik (105:36)

You want to know where Doubt never would have happened in Hebrew school.

Alessandra Gordon (105:40)

Stop.

Matt Koplik (105:40)

Never would have happened. I'm just saying. The. My principal.

Alessandra Gordon (105:43)

Not with my. Not with our Jewish mom. Was going, hey. Dead it.

Matt Koplik (105:46)

Yeah. Hey. Dead. At. No. At my Hebrew school, the principal was in and out of all classrooms, in and out of all, like, private lessons. I. We had a female cantor when I was practicing for my bar mitzvah, which I didn't end up doing because I didn't want to do the work. And I didn't really believe in religion at that point anyway, even at that age. This was pre doubt, by the way, but. Wow. Yeah. I remember, like, every, like, 25 minutes, the principal just, like, come in and be like, how's everything going here? And I remember thinking it was annoying, but looking back, I'm like, good on her. She would never let any adult be alone with a kid at that school for longer than 30 minutes.

Alessandra Gordon (106:20)

Hey.

Matt Koplik (106:20)

Yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (106:21)

And I liked your impression of her. How's everything going here?

Matt Koplik (106:23)

How's everything going here? With her giant mane of curly hair.

Alessandra Gordon (106:28)

Wow.

Matt Koplik (106:29)

She was her. She's very hot. She was Cher in Moonstruck meets Sister Aloysius. And it was.

Alessandra Gordon (106:34)

Granted, I am attracted to that. That character description.

Matt Koplik (106:39)

It's a Wonderful blend. I just think of, like, the importance of casting with a show like Doubt, because you. If you were to cast Nick Cage as Father Flynn, the moment he begins to serve, and you're like, the minute.

Alessandra Gordon (106:51)

He came on stage, you'd be like, get him out of here. Get him out of here. I feel unsafe. I'm an adult and I feel unsafe.

Matt Koplik (107:00)

But, like, you cast like a normally Obutz in it, who also, by the way, played the uncle in How I Learned to Drive at one point. You know, someone who is. Who is charismatic, who is likable, who is someone you just like. You go, like, I trust him. And so for then for someone. And then you want to cast someone who everyone hates. Like, you know, cast Lea Michele as Sister Aloysius. And she's like, I think he touched the boy. And everyone's like, go fuck yourself.

Alessandra Gordon (107:21)

Yeah, like, shut up.

Matt Koplik (107:23)

Shut up. Sister Aloysius. You can't read your Bible.

Alessandra Gordon (107:26)

When you were watching it, didn't you think, like, oh, these scenes are good? I don't think I. I don't think I thought that when I was seeing my college classmates do this. But, like, now I'm like, damn, that's a great scene. I'd love to act that scene. Didn't you feel that way?

Matt Koplik (107:38)

Name names, Ally. Who in your college were you watching being, like, bad job at acting?

Alessandra Gordon (107:43)

I have to be honest, I do not remember anymore because, like, everything blends into one another. I only remember the things that I did really badly at. Like, I remember I had to do a scene from Waiting for Lefty, which is, like, an unbelievable play. But I, like, could not get the tone and the, like, severity of it because I just, like, don't bring that quality into a room. And I remember my teacher at the end of the class being like, hey, I'm gonna give you a good grade on this because you learned the lines and you worked really hard. Some genres just aren't for you. And I remember being like, yeah, I understand that. I actually thought it was very fair and very mature discussion about a girl's failure in an acting class.

Matt Koplik (108:19)

What's it like to fail at acting? I've never known that.

Alessandra Gordon (108:22)

Wow. Maybe you should try scenes from Waiting for Lefty. Then.

Matt Koplik (108:25)

No, give me Streetcar Named Desire and be like, matt, you're playing Stanley. I'm like, okay, here we go.

Alessandra Gordon (108:29)

Okay. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, next week we did Streetcar Name Does Not Street Cardio Desire. We did what's the Blue Roses Glass Menagerie.

Matt Koplik (108:38)

Oh, yeah.

Alessandra Gordon (108:38)

You know what I mean? I Can come on stage and be sad. I can. I. You know, I got. I got Laura in the bag, but it was waiting for Lefty. I was like, not good. My teacher was like, it's okay that you're not good. You can't be good at everything. It's. That's okay.

Matt Koplik (108:49)

My teacher, junior year gave me the Biff and happy scene from Death of a Salesman because he thought that I would fall flat on my face. And the fact that I only fell onto my knees really disappointed him.

Alessandra Gordon (108:59)

See, I actually think that's a. That's a good role for you.

Matt Koplik (109:02)

Well, now, because I'm jacked, But at the time, I was skinny and Jewish, but he. And. And I just would walk around all the time like, roger, an American dad. I'd just be like, I'm Biff. I. I want to play with the.

Alessandra Gordon (109:12)

Horses on the farm, but my arms are up here.

Matt Koplik (109:16)

Shut your mouth, you stupid bitch. But I just. I remember him, like, giving me and my other classmate that scene because we were both screaming queens. And we did our first go of it a few weeks later, and he was like, huh? I really thought you guys would, like, truly stumble with this. He's like, you're not there yet, but you haven't stumbled. I was like, I'm sorry. I'm simply so good at what I do, sir.

Alessandra Gordon (109:35)

Yeah, sorry. I'm amazing at acting.

Matt Koplik (109:37)

I know. Cherry Jones looked at me and she said, you should continue in the theater. And I said, cherry Jones, don't tell me what to do.

Alessandra Gordon (109:44)

Wow. We should all be saying that to her. Anyway, when I saw this, I thought, like, geez, if I was. If I. If somebody was like, do you want to be in doubt? I probably would have a week ago been like, I don't know. And then post watching it been like, oh, yeah, I would totally do that show. That. That seems fun as hell.

Matt Koplik (109:59)

So it's not a parable for you. There's no doubt whatsoever that you do doubt.

Alessandra Gordon (110:02)

Wow. Don't you just think Sister James is a really fun role? Like. Like, when I was watching it, I was like, this would be such a fun role to do. Like. Like, I feel like there's so much on the page here that would be, like, such a juicy, fun thing. I don't know.

Matt Koplik (110:15)

Such a juicy, fat ass to play. Yeah, no, I would know such a.

Alessandra Gordon (110:19)

Juicy fat ass to play.

Matt Koplik (110:20)

Yeah. I would absolutely have you play Sister James. I would. I would play any of these roles if they asked me to. It's. It's. They are four great roles. I mean, when we saw the video, Adrian Lennox got exit applause for her scene, as well.

Alessandra Gordon (110:34)

She should have. It was really good.

Matt Koplik (110:36)

Yeah. Granted, when they filmed it, it was July and she had won her Tony by that point, so everyone was definitely going to the theater being like, okay, one scene wonder. One scene wonder. Let's see what happens. And then when she said, let that priest have my son, everyone. Oh, my God.

Alessandra Gordon (110:51)

You should do a series about once seen Wonders.

Matt Koplik (110:54)

Ah, Marilyn Cooper and Woman of the Year.

Alessandra Gordon (110:57)

Exactly. What's the one from. What's the one from Promises, Promises.

Matt Koplik (111:01)

Oh, God. Margie McDougal.

Alessandra Gordon (111:05)

Right? Like. Like there are. There are one scene wonders out there.

Matt Koplik (111:08)

Yeah. I'm just plain old Margie McDougall. I don't see anything plain about you, Margie. Ah, touche. Have you watched Christine Baranski do that scene, right?

Alessandra Gordon (111:16)

Yes.

Matt Koplik (111:17)

Master fucking class, if ever there was one. Who would you want to see in a production of Doubt besides yourself, you selfish whore.

Alessandra Gordon (111:23)

Thank you. Actually, I was texting about this with a friend of mine because I saw them do Angels in America at a regional theater. And the woman who played Hannah, Hannah Pitt, really made an impact on me, and she's this really fantastic actress named Racy Wright. And I was texting them and I was like, how do we get racy right. In a production of Doubt? Because, like, I would go see that in a heartbeat because she had such a commanding presence and she was really kind of terrifying when she wanted to be. And I just, like, loved that quality about her. And I was like, I. Like, I want to see that in Sister Aloysius.

Matt Koplik (112:01)

I get that. I would definitely be down for that. Another Hannah Pitt, Another Meryl Streep role. We're just anyone who's ever.

Alessandra Gordon (112:07)

I love her Hannah, though, I have to be honest. Like, there are some times when. When Meryl Streep touches a role, and despite her impeccable acting at all times, sometimes she has a very vulnerable quality, which is like, kind of what makes her such an amazing actress is like that sort of like, open vein quality. And occasionally she gets characters who are like tough guys and they're almost like a little too vulnerable at first, you know what I mean? And I think that it works so well for Hannah. I think her Hannah is, like, unnotable because, like, it's. When she is strict, you can almost see her already sort of chafing at the edges of her lifestyle. And then, like, her continuation of character into part two, like, makes more sense to me than when people play it, like, too of a Too much of a hard wall. I don't know.

Matt Koplik (112:54)

No. Meryl is absolutely great in Angels in America. There's no doubt about that.

Alessandra Gordon (112:58)

Wow. What parable.

Matt Koplik (113:00)

We can never say tout ever again without adding.

Alessandra Gordon (113:03)

Without saying a parable.

Matt Koplik (113:04)

Yeah. So, like, I can't say America without saying a gay fantasia on national themes, but Correct.

Alessandra Gordon (113:11)

I like calling anything a gay fantasia on national themes. Like, if anything needs a parenthetical after it, it's just really fun to basically call anything a gay fantasia on national themes. Paddington 2. A gay fantasia on national themes.

Matt Koplik (113:21)

Diana. A gay fantasia.

Alessandra Gordon (113:23)

Yes. Oh, my God. Diana is absolutely. A gay fantasia on national themes. The national themes are just, you know.

Matt Koplik (113:28)

British politics, Schindler's list of gay fantasia on national.

Alessandra Gordon (113:32)

Anything works. Do you remember when they were changing over the Angels in America thing to the Cher show?

Matt Koplik (113:37)

Yeah, the Cher show. Gay fantasia on national themes.

Alessandra Gordon (113:40)

Well, it was. First of all. It is, but then at the time, it said, angels in America, gay fantasia on national themes. And underneath it, the caption said, let's do this, bitches. I have that picture on my phone.

Matt Koplik (113:51)

I need you to send me that photo. That's absolutely.

Alessandra Gordon (113:53)

I will 100% send you that.

Matt Koplik (113:55)

All right, Ally, we are going to close this out. We have a game now at the end of this podcast for this. For this series. All in it is. It's two separate games, but they are the same ones, just different names.

Alessandra Gordon (114:06)

Okay.

Matt Koplik (114:07)

One is called Six Degrees of Sally Murphy.

Alessandra Gordon (114:10)

Okay.

Matt Koplik (114:11)

The other one is called who Lives, who Dies? Jeanine Tesori. And it's just love that. It's just 6 degrees of Jeanine Tesori. So we have to find a way from the original production of Doubt into Sally Murphy and into Janine Tesori separately.

Alessandra Gordon (114:26)

Whoa.

Matt Koplik (114:26)

Okay, we can use. We can only use original cast members and original production team.

Alessandra Gordon (114:32)

Okay.

Matt Koplik (114:33)

And we can't use theaters, and we can't use, like, not for profits or anything like that. So, like, the set designer of Doubt, we could use, like, use a connection there somehow. So let's figure this out. Let's figure out. Dao. Who do we do first, Sally Murphy or Janine Tesori?

Alessandra Gordon (114:50)

Let's do Jeanine Tesori first.

Matt Koplik (114:52)

Okay. Who from Doubt. Let's not do Heather because I don't know her credits after this. Let's. Okay. Adrian Lennox. That's a. That's a good one to do.

Alessandra Gordon (115:01)

Adrian Lennox is a good one to do. Ditto to. To Doug Hughes, who is the director. I feel like both of those are. Are good, like, segue. Points. But if we do Adrian Lennox, I could.

Matt Koplik (115:13)

I. I know for a fact I can do Adrian Lennox to Sally Murphy.

Alessandra Gordon (115:18)

Okay.

Matt Koplik (115:18)

But. Although, actually, you know what? It works for both of them. But I'll do Sally Murphy first. Adrienne Lennox was in Kiss Me Kate with Brian Stokes Mitchell.

Alessandra Gordon (115:27)

Yes.

Matt Koplik (115:27)

Who was in Shuffle along, directed by George C. Wolf, who directed Sally Murphy in the Wild Party.

Alessandra Gordon (115:34)

There you go.

Matt Koplik (115:35)

But also George C. Wolfe directed Caroline or Change, written by Jeanine Sorisori. He works both ways.

Alessandra Gordon (115:41)

Hey. Wow. That works both ways.

Matt Koplik (115:43)

Yeah. Once you get to George C. Wolfe, it's pretty simple.

Alessandra Gordon (115:46)

That's what I was gonna do. I was thinking, like, there is a connection here with Adrian Lennox to the world of Jeanine Tesori. But the Sally Murphy thing was more of a surprise for me.

Matt Koplik (115:55)

You're welcome. What else has Doug Hughes directed? Because maybe we. Because you mentioned him as a possible.

Alessandra Gordon (115:59)

One, and I wanted to say, yeah, he did. Well, before Doubt. He did Frozen, which was, like, such a huge deal. Do you remember that? In the 04 season, that was.

Matt Koplik (116:06)

I feel like that's. That was a major stepping stone for Brian F. O'. Byrne. He'd been around, but, like, that was his Tony.

Alessandra Gordon (116:12)

Oh, 100%. That was a. That was like another, like, cultural touchstone. People really were talking about Frozen a lot. But then he also. Murdered.

Matt Koplik (116:19)

Is that what he did?

Alessandra Gordon (116:21)

He. Yeah. Doug Hughes murdered a child.

Matt Koplik (116:24)

No. Brian Fo Burns character murdered a child in Frozen.

Alessandra Gordon (116:27)

Yes, yes, yes. And then he also did Like a Man for All Seasons and Inherit the Wind, and then he did that. Mrs. Warren's profession. They had a lot of famous people in it. Do you know what I mean?

Matt Koplik (116:37)

Sure. Well, Doug Hughes directed Frozen with Swoozie Kurtz.

Alessandra Gordon (116:45)

Yes.

Matt Koplik (116:46)

Who is in House of Blue Leaves with Christine Baranski. No, with Stockard Channing.

Alessandra Gordon (116:55)

Let's find out.

Matt Koplik (116:56)

With Stockard Channing. No, they both. They both did it. But I think Stockard opened the show, so we have to go with her. With Stockard Channing. Stockyard Channing, as my friend Danny calls her stalker. Channing was in Pal Joey, directed by Joe Mantello, who directed Sally Murphy and Men of no Importance. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.

Alessandra Gordon (117:15)

Man of no importance. What a good show.

Matt Koplik (117:18)

Yeah, it's good.

Alessandra Gordon (117:19)

I love it.

Matt Koplik (117:20)

Yeah. Did you see the one?

Alessandra Gordon (117:21)

I always forget that you. I did. I was not the world's biggest fan, and, you know, I take that seriously because I did previously say I saw that. The John DOYLE Sweet out 13 times. So my expectations are always very high.

Matt Koplik (117:36)

Yes. I remember enjoying it, but also I think I was going in with rose colored glasses at the time. You know that Doubt, a parable was turned into an opera at one point.

Alessandra Gordon (117:44)

Yes, many contemporary plays are turned into bad operas.

Matt Koplik (117:49)

Do we see a world in which Doubt could be a musical? No fingernails. He's really got long fingernails.

Alessandra Gordon (117:57)

That's exactly why I just like. I don't think so. Also, like a good musical, when a person sings a song, a song is meant to be sung with some semblance of assuredness. It's supposed to be like, I want or I think or I feel. Do you. I mean, like, it's supposed to have. It's supposed to make a strong stake into a understanding, a deeper understanding of said character, their whatever. And like, for a show like this, which is all about, like, the weird gray areas, it's like, I don't know how you musicalize something like that. Do you know what I'm saying?

Matt Koplik (118:24)

Challenge accepted. I will have an absolute masterclass in writing of every song being a song of doubt.

Alessandra Gordon (118:31)

I would love that. Do that.

Matt Koplik (118:33)

And conflicted emotions and unreliable narrators. I will have a dream ballet all about Father Flynn's fingernails. And we're gonna have that song from Legally Blonde. Gay or European? And it's gonna be gay or long fingernails. Pedophilia or just long fingernails. And.

Alessandra Gordon (118:51)

Listen.

Matt Koplik (118:51)

And we're gonna have Sister Aloicious his turn. And Sister James is gonna sing a part of your world song. But it's all about, like, loving history and. And wanting complacency. And then Donald's mother is gonna have Let it go, but it's gonna be called Let him have him and it's gonna be great. It's gonna be.

Alessandra Gordon (119:09)

It's gonna be Let him Go.

Matt Koplik (119:16)

Oh, God damn. It's gonna be a great musical.

Alessandra Gordon (119:19)

Yeah.

Matt Koplik (119:19)

Get started. Starring Aaron Teavight. Of course, I've only been positive about everyone in this community. Ali, if we're gonna love theater, we have to love all of theater and support all of theater.

Alessandra Gordon (119:31)

Okay, what about when you called me a cunt earlier?

Matt Koplik (119:35)

First of all, did not say that word.

Alessandra Gordon (119:37)

I'm putting. I'm staring down a parable into your listeners.

Matt Koplik (119:42)

I have. I have called you every other name under the sun. Except for that one.

Alessandra Gordon (119:47)

Okay, well, it's a funny word.

Matt Koplik (119:49)

It's a great word. It's the hard K sound.

Alessandra Gordon (119:51)

Ah, it's so good.

Matt Koplik (119:52)

There are. I think that my one note about doubt, not enough hard K sounds.

Alessandra Gordon (119:57)

Wow.

Matt Koplik (119:59)

Donald's name should be like Kevin or something. So every time.

Alessandra Gordon (120:01)

They're like, speaking of the name, he is named Donald Mueller in the show and in the movie he's Donald Miller. When did that happen?

Matt Koplik (120:08)

I don't know.

Alessandra Gordon (120:08)

How did that happen?

Matt Koplik (120:09)

I have such doubts.

Alessandra Gordon (120:11)

I have such doubts.

Matt Koplik (120:13)

John Patrick Shanley. I have doubts about your name choices.

Alessandra Gordon (120:16)

Why? Why did they change it? I have so many questions.

Matt Koplik (120:18)

Les M Gay.

Alessandra Gordon (120:20)

Lesm Gay. Hey, Lesom Gay. That's our way of saying bye.

Matt Koplik (120:24)

Yeah, that's our way of saying bye. Ally, where can people find you if you want them to find you?

Alessandra Gordon (120:28)

If you want to find me, I am at any place where I need to have a screen name. @ Ms. Alice Nutting. M S A L I C E N U T T I N G I'm also still performing some musical improv live in New York City. I perform at the Team Rumpel teaser. You know, comedy's starting to come back. It's been a little. It's been a tough little period there, but we're starting to get some stuff back up on its feet.

Matt Koplik (120:51)

So comedy's having a comeback, guys. People are interested in it again.

Alessandra Gordon (120:54)

I just mean the pandemic. There's just no place to perform. I. It's too long of a story.

Matt Koplik (121:01)

I've got no time for your long stories. I barely have time for these. I barely have time for these 90 minute plays about nuns. If you like the podcast, give us a nice rating or review. You can find me at Instagram at Matt Copley, usual spelling. Join us next week for God knows what because I've been doing this whole thing out of order. This might, you know, be close to the end of. Of the series.

Alessandra Gordon (121:17)

I don't know, maybe even the finale.

Matt Koplik (121:20)

No, I can't have this be the finale.

Alessandra Gordon (121:21)

Think about your life, Pippin. Think about the finale.

Matt Koplik (121:28)

Cherry Jones is the leading player. What would that be like? Fierce, Actually, yeah, she does sing a little bit. She was in that play with music called Imaginary Friends with Swoozie Kurtz.

Alessandra Gordon (121:36)

Wow. Back to Susie Kurtz again.

Matt Koplik (121:38)

Susie Kurtz is everywhere.

Alessandra Gordon (121:40)

She's one of us. She is the Jesus that is a. That is among us and around us, guiding our lives.

Matt Koplik (121:46)

My, my two. My two notes about Doubt. Speaking of hard case, not enough hard case sounds. And Susie Kurtz wasn't in it or referenced in any way.

Alessandra Gordon (121:56)

Yeah, why weren't there any references to Swoozie Kurtz and Doubt?

Matt Koplik (121:59)

Yeah. If Satine can mention plastic 60 years before plastic is meant. Is invented in Mulanuri, Susie Curse can get mentioned in Doubt. I'm just saying.

Alessandra Gordon (122:07)

I agree. Hey, I'm not gonna argue with you.

Matt Koplik (122:10)

Who would ever argue with me? I'm right about literally everything. Unlike a parable. I am not doubt. I have no doubt. I am not doubt. A parable.

Alessandra Gordon (122:19)

That is how we've done this.

Matt Koplik (122:20)

Yes. Call me anti Sister Aloysius, baby, because I have no doubts. No doubts, Honey boo boo child. I have proof. I am Mary Louise Parker. Because I have proof.

Alessandra Gordon (122:31)

I am Mary Louise Parker. I have proof.

Matt Koplik (122:34)

Yeah. Great. This is wonderful, Ally. We gotta find a diva to close this out. Who do we close out with? Adrian Lennox.

Alessandra Gordon (122:40)

Oh, yeah. Do Adrian Lennox.

Matt Koplik (122:42)

We're gonna close out with Adrian Lennox. Okay, so, yeah, join us next week, everybody, for God knows what. And until then, have a great week. And here's Adrian to take us away. Take it away, Adrian.

Alessandra Gordon (122:51)

Bye, Adrian.

Matt Koplik (122:52)

Bye.

Alessandra Gordon (122:52)

Four weeks you're rehearsing. Rehearse. Three weeks, and it couldn't be worse. One week, will it ever be right? Then out of the hat it's that.

Matt Koplik (123:03)

Big first night over is about to start? You cross your fingers and hold your heart your second time and away we go.

Alessandra Gordon (123:16)

Sa.