FAT HAM w/ Jayson Kerr

Summary

Broadway Breakdown: "FAT HAM" w/ Jayson Kerr

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Jayson Kerr
Date: November 14, 2024

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Episode Overview

Matt Koplik welcomes first-time guest and veteran podcaster Jayson Kerr for a raucous, passionate, and insightful conversation about James Ijames's Pulitzer-winning play Fat Ham. Known for his deep-dive, sharp-tongued, and hilariously explicit take on Broadway, Matt uses this "Grab Bag" episode to give overdue attention to contemporary plays on Broadway—with Fat Ham front and center. The episode delivers background on the play, breaks down its plot and structure, examines its innovative adaptation of Hamlet, and digs into its themes of family, trauma, queerness, Black joy, and breaking cycles—sprinkled with theater gossip, wit, deep analysis, and irreverent banter.

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Main Discussion & Key Insights

1. Why Fat Ham?

• Play Selection Mandate: Matt wanted listeners to include at least one play in submissions for the "Grab Bag" series, to address the underrepresentation of plays on the show.

• Matt: "Broadway isn’t just musicals ... And we are in a renaissance of American playwriting." [06:07]

• Jayson: "The plays were the thing that saved my sanity last year ... Are you saying that the play’s the thing?" [06:24–06:29]

• Both agree that while musicals have felt underwhelming in recent years, new American plays like Fat Ham are pushing boundaries and invigorating the stage.

2. What is Fat Ham? (Plot, Structure, and Tone)

• Fat Ham is "not an adaptation of Hamlet. It is using Hamlet as a vehicle to tell a story about a family," Jayson explains.
  [07:16]
• It’s a Black, queer, modern riff on Hamlet, but meta, campy, and frequently breaks the fourth wall.
• Matt describes it as "the skeleton with which the play dresses itself on, but it is not a direct [adaptation]." [07:18]
• The play takes place largely at a barbecue, fusing heavy Hamlet themes with Black Southern family culture and humor.
• The main character, Juicy, knows he’s in a version of Hamlet and spends the play trying to avoid Hamlet’s tragic fate: "The play is him knowing that he’s supposed to die and trying to figure out how not to." [26:09]

3. The Pulitzer & Breaking Expectations

• Discussion of Fat Ham’s Pulitzer Prize win and the audience expectations it created:
  • Matt describes reading early message boards: "People went in then going, oh, well, this is the Pulitzer winner. This is the highbrow, suffering play ... and there are people ... writing after, being disappointed because they were like, I don’t know, it was fun, but that won the Pulitzer?" [09:04]
  • He frames this expectation as exactly what the play is interrogating and rebuffing—who gets to define "important" or "worthy" art.
• Comparison with other Pulitzer winners, the quirks of the award, and the context of Black theater post-pandemic.

4. Fat Ham’s Characters: Modern Hamlet, Blackness, & Queerness

• Juicy: The Hamlet figure; "a beautiful, lonely, smart, kind of Hamlet." (Matt reads the script's blurb). [29:31]
• Teedra (Gertrude type): A "good mother," self-aware, traumatized, seeking comfort in chaos.
• Rev (Claudius type)/Pap (Ghost): Rev, Teedra’s new husband and Juicy’s uncle; Pap is Juicy’s father’s ghost—played by the same actor. Pap was abusive and hard; Rev is controlling in a different, more mental way.
• Opal and Larry (Ophelia/Laertes types): Sibling friends to Juicy, each with their own queer narrative and familial struggles.
• Rabby (Polonius): Churchy, opinionated, comedic, a sharp observer of Juicy and Opal.
• Tio (Horatio): Comic relief and wise "fool"; provides some of the play’s deepest insights through his stoner wisdom.
• They discuss the richness and flexibility in the casting ("Tio clever, 20–40 ... we're just having fun with that age, right?" [31:20]) and the subversions of the Shakespeare originals.

5. Trauma, Cycles, and Breaking Patterns

• Fat Ham explores cycles of trauma, especially within Black families and communities.
  • Jayson: "It’s like a term paper on trauma in the family ... breaking the cycle of family trauma, which is eternal, universal." [33:12]
  • Matt: "Inherited trauma ... [manifests] in you because that shit does. It changes your DNA." [34:07]
• The play spotlights the pressure to suppress emotion, especially for Black men, and the consequences ("Crying is a natural response ... you need to let it out, because if you don’t, it will fucking eat you." [35:02])
• This theme is structurally underscored: Juicy actively works to resist the expected tragic conclusion of Hamlet—a metaphor for breaking inherited destructive cycles.

6. Religion, Generational Shifts, and Community

• The hypocrisy and flexibility of religious justification is lampooned (e.g., justifying Teedra’s quick remarriage):
  • "They did it in the Bible all the time ..." [55:13]
• The concept of chosen family versus blood relatives recurs; Juicy and Opal’s friendship shows the importance of LGBTQ+ community and "chosen" bonds ("There’s a difference between a family and a relative. Family is someone who’s there for you, a relative is someone who shows up for you in a blood test or when someone dies." [63:04])

7. Meta-Theatricality & Humor

• Fat Ham blends earthy, queer humor with poignant family drama, surprising audiences expecting "serious" Pulitzer fare.
• Quips abound about barbecue sauce, family dysfunction, OnlyFans, and theater community rivalries, keeping the discussion lively and true to the original’s playful tone.
• Juicy’s status as narrator and frequent breaker of the fourth wall highlights both his control and alienation.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the role of trauma (Jayson):
  "Watching it today, I didn’t even notice how well they set it up ... breaking the cycle of family trauma, which is eternal." [33:12]

• On Fat Ham’s adaptation (Matt):
  "Where it is not a direct adaptation is where James Ijames is like, let me have fun." [57:12]

• On Black joy:
  Matt: "A rare Pulitzer winner for a Black story that isn’t about pain—it’s finding joy through trauma. It’s not about the trauma." [150:17]
  Jayson: "The joy, the joy." [150:18]

• On the show’s ending:
  "They choose life ... Fat Ham ends with joy. Remember, these are people. And remember, it’s funny as fuck." [151:41–152:04]

• On the generational shift:
  "You want me to respect you? Act in a way that’s worthy of respect." [63:03]

Timestamped Highlights

• 00:30–03:00: Hilarious intro, LaChiusa musical anecdotes
• 06:07: Why cover plays? The state of new American playwriting
• 07:16–08:05: Fat Ham’s meta structure and what the play is "about"
• 26:09: Juicy’s quest to avoid Hamlet’s ending
• 29:31: Breakdown of main characters, script’s own words
• 34:07–35:07: Trauma, masculinity, and its effects
• 55:13: Teedra justifying her marriage—use of religion
• 63:04: Chosen family vs. relatives
• 74:27–75:38: Adapting "to be or not to be": "It’s not to be or not to be. It’s how to be."
• 104:46: Larry & Juicy’s tender scene and closet dynamics
• 117:12–121:30: Tio’s gingerbread monologue: pleasure over harm
• 131:14–134:31: The play’s ending: escaping tragedy, choosing joy
• 137:50: Final stage directions—celebration of the feminine

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The Ending: Escaping Tragedy & Choosing Joy

Summary:
The final act brings Fat Ham's central themes to a climax. Rev (the Claudius figure) dies—but not by murder. He chokes and refuses Juicy’s help to save his life due to homophobic pride. The classic Hamlet bloodbath is teased (with strobe effects and fight moments), but the characters choose not to kill each other. Instead, they break the cycle, refuse to perform tragedy, and dissolve into a queer, jubilant, drag-infused, celebratory finale—a "crack into a celebration of the feminine" [137:50].

"Why die now? Why die now? ... We choose life."

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Critical Reflection & Final Thoughts

• Fat Ham is praised for subverting expectations, deftly blending humor and trauma, and using meta-theater to challenge who gets to tell which stories—and whose joy is worthy of recognition.
• Its specificity—a contemporary Southern Black family, with queer and female characters breaking cycles and finding self-acceptance—enables it to be both uniquely fresh and widely relatable.
• Both hosts hope for a wide afterlife for the play in colleges, small regionals, and beyond: "Remember, it ends with joy ... and it's funny as fuck." [152:03]

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Other Notable Topics

• The challenges and politics of the Pulitzer Prize and Tony nominations
• The relationship between Fat Ham and other plays/musicals (Hamlet, Angels in America, Fire Island, Kinky Boots)
• Extended, foul-mouthed asides and as much gay theater gossip as you’d expect from this duo

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Closing

Broadway diva sign-off:
By request, the episode closes with Elaine Stritch—because, as Jayson says, "it’s me, so ... Elaine Stritch."

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For more, follow Matt (@tcoplik) and Jayson (Instagram: @jaysonlkerr).
Read and support the show at bwaybreakdown.substack.com.

Transcript

[A]

You set me free?

[B]

Every time you handle me? I wanna be the way to shine? I can't deny the feeling that you're giving me?

[A]

You lift the spot that's set apart?

[B]

Oh, oh, no, don't run away from your love? No, no, don't turn away from the heart of the groove? From the way that we move can rise, we can lose?

[A]

Oh. Hello, all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Grab Bag and is covering shows that you submitted and I picked out of a bowl. I am your host, Matt Koflik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me is a virgin to the pod. He's not a virgin to podcasts in general. In fact, if you go on one of our sister podcasts, Life's But a Song, you'll hear this asshole multiple times. I'm pretty sure either rivals me or has beaten me for the most episodes on Life's But a Song. We'll have a talk about that later. Please welcome for the first time, Jason Kerr.

[B]

Hey, how you doing? That's quite the introduction.

[A]

I thought so.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

An intro fit for a fat, fat ham.

[B]

There's no fatter ham than I.

[A]

No and no. And no leaner bacon than me. I don't know. I don't anymore. It's been a long day, guys. I. Jason already knows this. So we were supposed to record earlier this afternoon and then I got a last minute invitation to a workshop of the new Michael John lachiusa musical.

[B]

And.

[A]

And if you know me, you had me at new Michael John lachiusa musical. They almost lost me because I know people in that show. And I was like, so how long is it? Because I thought, like, oh, two hours. I think Jason and I just have to push back our recording time by an hour. And they're like, oh, it's three hours.

[B]

Jesus Christ.

[A]

Yes, absolutely. Jesus Christ.

[B]

It's a full opera.

[A]

It's a. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Even operas are getting shorter.

[A]

It's a full Oppenheimer. At the very least, American Eclipse had the decency to give us a 15 minute break.

[B]

Oh, that's very.

[A]

And to grace us with Mary Testa. But even so, I was like, mj, mjl, come on, baby, let's go back to our wild party. Hello again, days. Intermissionless, 100 minute, 2 hour baby.

[B]

Even the first lady suites aren't that the first daughter suites first lady suites.

[A]

Yeah. And those are. And those are two acts and I think they're like 220 maybe something like that.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't remember being very long.

[A]

No, I mean, certain segments felt long, but not because they actually were long.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I. I still am not entirely sure what that Nixon scene in First Daughter Suite.

[B]

Is that the. The. The war?

[A]

No, it's the one. Where is it Patty Nixon, Trisha Nixon, one of them is getting married on the front lawn and it's raining and she's upset and it's. It's Casey Levy and Betsy Mor sisters. Barbara Walsh as the mom and then someone as the grandma. But, like, she's the ghost of the grandma in the corner sewing and like, commenting on the action, and only Barbara Walsh can hear her. It was very, like.

[B]

I don't remember that.

[A]

It was the very first scene.

[B]

You know, I skipped that on the cast recording as well.

[A]

As. Well you should. It's a shame because those women sing the. Out of it. But it's.

[B]

It's a gorgeous score.

[A]

It's. Well, that opening scene is the most lachiusa music that people think of when they think of lachiusa.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because then you get to the Ford, the Betty Ford and.

[B]

Oh, so good.

[A]

Yeah. What's her.

[B]

Carter Frasier.

[A]

Alison Fraser as Betty Ford and. But like, who's the little girl? It's someone. Carter.

[B]

I don't remember.

[A]

Whoever that first daughter was, it's her, like, imaginary ship. And Alison Fraser is a drunk ass Betty Ford. And that was awesome. And then I really liked Casey Levy's sung monologue to Alison Fraser as Reagan's daughter. And then the final scene was really lovely. But that first.

[B]

My favorite. My favorite is the Barbara Bush.

[A]

Yeah, that's the last one.

[B]

That's my. That's so heartbreaking.

[A]

Mary Testa and Rachel Bay Jones, baby.

[B]

So good.

[A]

So good.

[B]

So beautiful.

[A]

Yeah, I just. I just remember Mary Testa constantly singing, I did not raise my son son to be unpopular.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And everyone in the theater is like, this is Lachiuse's response to popular. I'm gonna help you be popular.

[B]

I don't think I even thought of that.

[A]

So I went with a friend of the pod, Robbie Roselle, to American Clips.

[B]

Oh, Robbie. We love him.

[A]

We love him. And there were a couple of different times where he and I were like, under our breath, sing to each other certain lachiusa things that certain moments reminded us of. Like, we both went like, I forget what it was, but there was a moment where a bunch of women were singing together heavily, and we both were going, before the morning, I will be a witness. And then there's a couple times they say Poughkeepsie, because I think Erin Davies character is from Poughkeepsie. And she keeps being like, I haven't left Poughkeepsie ever. And I just kept going. There's nothing wrong with Poughkeepsie that living in Manhattan couldn't fix.

[B]

Ha.

[A]

Sorry. We're musical theater gays.

[B]

Which is so. Which brings us to my anxiety for today.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No one. I mean, no one has ever asked me to talk about a play.

[A]

Well, people don't ask me to talk about plays. I made it a point that the listeners had to submit at least one play for their group of submissions because people could submit up to five things.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I said, but one of those things has to be a play. And they did.

[B]

They really did. This is a great one.

[A]

I'm very glad this one got picked. But part of the reason I did that was because I felt like we weren't covering plays enough on here. We got a few, but I. You know, Broadway isn't just musicals.

[B]

It isn't. I mean, but it's what people think about. It is what they think about our plays.

[A]

Yeah. And we are in a. I think we are in a renaissance of American playwriting.

[B]

We really are.

[A]

We're getting. If musicals are kind of underwhelming me these days, plays are coming back with a vengeance.

[B]

Well, last year, the plays were the thing that saved my sanity.

[A]

Are you saying that the play's the thing?

[B]

The play's the thing, yeah. Very well played.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you. So, Jason Kerr, what show are we talking about?

[B]

We are talking about Fat Ham, which I love. Ham.

[A]

I. I love Ham Light. Ham Light. What is it for? For the uncultured fucks, which is what we call the listeners. What is Fat Ham like? What is it about? What's the plot? What's the story?

[B]

Fat Ham. If I had to do a synopsis of my own synopsis, it is. It is not an adaptation of Hammett. It is. Is a. Is using Hamlet as a vehicle to tell a story about a. A family. Yeah. I don't want to give too much away.

[A]

Well, we're gonna get into all that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'd say Hamlin is a springboard for it. It's definitely. It is the skeleton with which the play dresses itself on. But it is not a direct.

[B]

No, I mean, it's all over the place. It kind of references it in A kind of campy way.

[A]

Yeah. Well, it's very self referential. It's often meta. Everyone's addressing the audience. Like people acknowledge that the audience is there and then we'll just go back to doing what they're doing. And there are times when they recognize that they are in a play and that the play that they're in is, technically speaking, according to the elevator pitch to the audience, a black queer adaptation of Hamlet and thus why the ending is discussed the way it is and then ultimately rebuffed the way that it is.

[B]

Love it. It's so well done.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

You know, it went a Pulitzer. So, you know.

[A]

Yes, it did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But so did Driving Miss Daisy.

[B]

Did it? Well, it's for its time. Did it? Wait, did Driving Miss Daisy wasn't Pulitzer.

[A]

I think it did.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I just, I said that so confidently and I don't think I read that for a long time.

[B]

I briefly glanced at the list of Pulitzer Prize winning dramas.

[A]

Draven. Miss Daisy did win the Pulitzer. The, the Fathom Pulitzer one is interesting because I went back online to read the boards, which is something that I like to do when I do research for these episodes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If a show opened at a time when the boards were around or if there was revival of the show when the boards were around, I like to read what people were saying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so with Fathom, it was interesting because there were people who saw the broadcast and we'll talk about that too. Super on board with it. And then when it won the Pulitzer, it was like the week or two before it started performances at the public. So it was already like a pretty noticeable title and then became like a very hot ticket. But it was interesting because people went in then going, oh, well, this is the Pulitzer winner. This is, this is the highbrow, suffering play. Like it must. That's what it must be. And there are people who wrote online after it's coming out being disappointed because they were like, I don't know, like it was fun, but like that one, the Pulitzer. And it actually is an interesting litmus test because it's sort of that, that prejudice of what people were going in expecting is what the play is ultimately fighting against.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the whole point of its existence.

[B]

Do you think that's because people don't know what the Pulitzer is for?

[A]

I don't know. The Pulitzer. Every now and then the Pulitzer gets it. Super. Right. And then every now and then they get it kind of weird.

[B]

Where do you think it got weird? Which ones do you think?

[A]

I think Giving it. I think giving Alby his second Pulitzer for Seascape was weird.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Sorry. No, his first. I think that was his first Pulitzer.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because he got it for a seascape for three tall women and Delicate Balance. Yes. Or the goat. No, Delicate Balance, Del.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

Yeah. So then it was Delicate Balance, Seascape and three tall women. Him getting it for Seascape was weird. He didn't get it for who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf?

[B]

Which is we. Which is interesting.

[A]

Yes. I give them props for giving Thorton Wilder his second Pulitzer for Skin of Our Teeth because that play is insane.

[B]

It is insane. And no, I actually, I did not know the play. I never read it, heard it, seen, seen seens from it until I saw this last revival. It's insane.

[A]

It is absolutely insane. I can't tell you that I love it.

[B]

But I, I did love it.

[A]

A lot of people do. It is. If Wilder was having fun with the fourth wall in Our Town, he was like, what if I fuck it in the ear in Skin of Our Teeth? Just like right in the ear. To quote Wendy Testerberger, just balls, Balls to the, to the earlobe. But it's, yeah, it's because it's, there's so much brilliance in it, but it is kind of a mess at the same time. It's, it's definitely. He was probably dropping acid during out of town tryouts and, like, was rewriting scenes that just got crazier and crazier and everyone was like, I give up.

[B]

But he's always been fucking with the fourth wall. Even in, in the Matchmaker.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I, I, I, I love.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this play breaks the fourth wall, too. I'm trying to think of. I, I think Fiorello winning the Pulitzer is an odd one.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't know if I would have given it to.

[B]

Was he mayor? No, he was, he was not mayor at the time.

[A]

No, he was no longer mayor.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, but I know if that was like, political.

[A]

No, he was just beloved. But it's also like why they won or tied for best musical, I guess. I think, I don't know if I think that. Night Mother is a Pulitzer worthy play. I understand why Heidi Chronicles won for its time. And same with Driving Miss Daisy, one for its time.

[B]

But to talk about more recent ones, I really enjoyed Fairview.

[A]

I didn't get to see that.

[B]

Oh, man. I'm surprised it didn't get a Broadway production. I think it's a very. Excuse me. I think audiences would love it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I even think, like, it's weird, but I think even think tourists would love it.

[A]

It's possible. Who knows anymore what they would love, because some of the things that have broken through on Broadway these days. It's wonderful. I love to see it. But none of us thought that Omari was going to be what it is.

[B]

I think there was always a little fear on their end, but they were killing it. An extension.

[A]

Absolutely stereophonic. Also killed it. Like they're. They're gonna make it to the end of their run. They're gonna make it to the end of their run. A success. Yeah, it's very exciting. One more ring.

[B]

One more ring.

[A]

Yeah. We gotta make sure that magic. I. I commanded it and it was.

[B]

So you snapped your fingers.

[A]

I did. I did. I. So I didn't get to see Fairview. What was. What was the premise of that one?

[B]

Oh, man. Oh, okay.

[A]

As quickly as you pitched that one.

[B]

Yeah, I know. Fairview was essentially about. I think it's about who tells what story because it's three acts. The first act is an African American family, and we see the actions and it happens. The second act is a white narration, and then the action of the first act is happening underneath. Oh, sorry. They're commenting on the act of the play. So we're seeing the play again with no sound.

[A]

But now with commentary.

[B]

But now with commentary.

[A]

So similar to this podcast.

[B]

Yes. And I forget how it ends, but I don't want to tell. I guess I shouldn't tell people how it ends because they should read the play.

[A]

They should.

[B]

But I loved it.

[A]

Do you have any Pulitzer winners that sort of make you scratch your head?

[B]

Not really. The ones that you. I actually hadn't thought about the ones until you mentioned them. I'm like, okay, that kind of makes sense. But if something went to Pulitzer, I'm like, well, as for its time, yeah, it was topical.

[A]

There's. There's no Pulitzer winner where you go, well, that's a piece of shit. There's a. There are winners where you're like, that's the one. Especially sometimes when you look at who the runner ups were and you're like, oh, it beat them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I remember the year that the flick one, people were really pissed about that because it beat Fun Home and everyone was really hopped up on Fun Home winning.

[B]

Fun Home could have been. Should have been a Pulitzer Prize winner.

[A]

It should have been. But Tesori will get her Pulitzer if it kills me.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, that would have been Lisa, really, wouldn't it?

[A]

They both would have won oh, okay. Yeah. But. But yeah, because Rogers has the Pulitzer and Bach has the Pulitzer, in fact, and Sondheim. So I think Sondheim and Rogers are two people. One of the few people who PE Got.

[B]

Ooh.

[A]

And Lin will get his PE got once he finally wins that Oscar. He's just got to stop writing copy paste songs for Disney.

[B]

Well, listen, Disney, Pay Disney. I'm sure one Disney production can pay for a house in Hawaii.

[A]

Oh, anywhere. He can have as many kids as you want. They're all going to college.

[B]

They're all going to college. And they won't struggle, not one bit.

[A]

They will not have a Nina in in the Heights, that is for sure. How did. How did Fatham enter your chat?

[B]

Jason, in enter my chat, I for. I. My friend was in town and he said, I have extra tickets to see the show. To see Fat Hammer. The public. Because he knew James.

[A]

James Times.

[B]

Yes. And I said, okay, I'm. I will see anything at the public. I love the public. I knew nothing about it. So I just went. I went slight unseen. I didn't know it was about. It was based on the Hamlet. And.

[A]

And. And how was it?

[B]

I loved the. The last scene was really. Is. Will always stick with me because it's so. You know, Sondheim talks about everything. Theater has to have an element of surprise. That was the biggest surprise I'd ever seen in my. On stage in a while when it was just after Pandemic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As well. So we weren't really seeing theater. So I was happy to be in a theater.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

On top of that. So. Yeah, that was. That's how I first found out about Fathom.

[A]

Wonderful. Yeah. I. I think I had Fathom entered my chat when it was announced. Announced for the public and then won the Pulitzer.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

A little bit later. Yeah. Because I don't remember it being broadcast online when the Wilma Theater where it was commissioned.

[B]

Yeah. I didn't see that. I didn't know anything. I mean, of course, it wasn't on my radar.

[A]

Well, it also wasn't up for very long. It was only up for a month.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which is what a lot of these theater companies were doing was they had. They were releasing professional videos of their productions or doing other things for a while. Like there was that pandemic zoom filming of significant other where everyone was in front of their computers, but they incorporated other, like outside shots and all this stuff. And all those would be up for a little bit and then they would eventually go down. And the idea was to get people to Watch as much of it as they could because it was gonna go away.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I don't remember the Wilmet Theater announcing it. I don't remember being up. I don't remember anybody talking about it. But that was, I think, April or May of 2021. And then the public announced Fat Ham for their season. I want to say that August, maybe, maybe September, because it was actually, I was looking this up the, the season where Fat Ham went to the public. It was announced alongside the Visitor and Sephs and the Visitor and Suffs.

[B]

That was the same. That wasn't the same season.

[A]

Same fucking season. And I know this because I was in my research looking up the boards, and people were going berserk for the, for the, for the Visitor and Suffs. They're like, oh, my God, Suffs is gonna be the next Hamilton. The Visitor, Tom Kitt, David Hyde Pierce. Based off of a movie that we enjoy that gave Richard Jenkins his first Oscar nomination. We Mother, We Are Satisfied. And then we all know how that turned out.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And Suffs was frustrating for many. And Fat Ham was sort of like the big surprise hit because again, as I said, like, the week or two before they started performances was when they won the Pulitzer. So they just like, had a spotlight on them all of a sudden.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then word was really strong from Off Broadway. There was talk that it might transfer, but because it was done in the Thrust, there it was at that Ann.

[B]

Pasher thing, I think, think that that staging is best. Probably, I, I, I, I was, I know, you know, the, probably the American Airlines is what it is. But that Thrust is, was perfect for the, for the show.

[A]

I have no problem believing that. I went to the library to watch it again because I saw it at the American Airlines Theater. Now the Todd Haymes Theater. Sorry, everybody, but I saw it there and I really, really did enjoy it. And I wish I had seen it at the Public because even though I was in the third row, I was like, I feel like this should be in a theater half the size.

[B]

Yeah. Should be the Helen Hayes.

[A]

Yeah. And I said this about the Haynes when I reviewed Yellowface. Like, it's a small theater. It's like 700 seats, but it is very ornate.

[B]

Deep.

[A]

It's deep. It's tall.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And depending on what show you're doing there, like on the 20th century in pajama Game, feel like you are in an intimate, electric musical.

[B]

I miss them both. I'm so upset. Especially on the 20th century. That's one of my favorite musicals.

[A]

I wanna, I Wanna talk scale back a little bit of the enthusiasm? I said on the 20th century. That was a very lovely revival. Pajama Game was like actual fire. And I say that just because I think it's very rare when we have productions that, like, are actually that kind of electric.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The Internet wants you to believe it after every first preview, that it's the new thing and it all marketing. Exactly. And. And we'll also. It's. It's gays on Instagram going to the first preview and be like, oh, my God, guys, it's gonna change your life. Change your life. I was there when it happened.

[B]

All these homosexuals at Sunset Boulevard losing their minds.

[A]

Losing their minds. Well, have you seen it yet?

[B]

I did.

[A]

What'd you think?

[B]

I really enjoyed it.

[A]

It's a lot of fun.

[B]

It's a. It's a lot of fun and it's very, very, very creative.

[A]

It is storytelling. I said in my review as well, and I. I'm sure I write this in my Instagram review. There are some choices in it that only make sense to Jamie Lloyd, and that's okay. I still enjoyed them.

[B]

It's the campy edges for me, for.

[A]

Oh, for sure. It's. It's. They allow the musical to be fun. Like the movie is fun because the musical takes itself so seriously. It's why I don't like the musical. And I don't think. I think it ultimately misunderstands the assignment. But we're not talking about Sense of Boulevard, but the idea is the gays going to the first preview, going, this is the most epic production you'll ever see. And it's very good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There are times when I was very much like, oh, this is really, really cool. And then other times I was like, right, it's Sunset Boulevard and it's Jamie Lloyd. Like, the I. Let's have lunch for me was exciting in the sense that musically it gave me what I wanted. It was the right. It was the correct tempo. The vocals were great.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The staging was fine. It made no sense storytelling wise, but it was cool. Like when they're in that line and they're each coming up to each other. You know what I'm talking about. When they're having the interactions and they're in a line and each two people at the front come together and then they go to the back and then to the next.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

Yeah. And same thing with how they do every movie's movies. A circus where they're sitting in a row of chairs.

[B]

That was wild. I Was I actually started counting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the movement is very interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In that number I want. I'm like, what, what do these, what do these poor dancers have to memorize for this count so much?

[A]

I, I am so sorry for them when they have a swing. Go on and be like, Jesus Christ.

[B]

I, I said when I walked out of theater, I do not envy the understudy rehearsals for the show.

[A]

Not at all.

[B]

At, not one bit.

[A]

But, but, but I just say, I just say that because like that staging is really cool. But also I was like, I don't know what it means. Storytelling wise, it's just very fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But yeah, it's that energy. And so with, with that ham, I took that energy with a grain of salt. Just because like you never. I don't trust early vibes from any show ever. Ever.

[B]

You shouldn't.

[A]

I go in with an open mind at arm's length. That's my motto. And I sat in that third row and I so thoroughly enjoyed it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The ending did take me by surprise because I wasn't sure what, what it really was. The pitch had always been it's a take on Hamlet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, okay, so like is it beat for beat? Is it like, do they do a lot of the dialogue from Hamlet but they give it a black queer spin and the answer is like yes and no and no and yes. There, there is some Hamlet in there.

[B]

Quite a bit.

[A]

Quite a bit. Yeah.

[B]

It kind of takes, I think that it takes the. To be or not to be just phrased and just turns it into a play.

[A]

Yeah. Well, so I was watching an interview with James Iams, the playwright who used to be one of the co artistic directors of the Wilma, which is why that was the theater where it premiered at and where it was commissioned because he's a Philadelphia, a former actor, now playwright based in Philadelphia.

[B]

He's a true multi hyphenated. I know he directed as well. He's kind of everything.

[A]

I used to say I wanted to be the male Elaine. Maybe I, maybe I want to be the. The white James Ives. Is that okay to say? Elaine doesn't have a Pulitzer.

[B]

She doesn't have a Pulitzer, but she does. Her, her scripts are iconic. Oh yeah, they're very funny.

[A]

If they could make a gay Jewish baby and have it be me, because I want to be. I would like my own fat hand. But also I want my own birdcage.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, can I please have it, daddy?

[B]

Well, James and, and maybe you want to be James because James says he Wants to do more different types of genres.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So maybe he will have a birdcage.

[A]

Yeah. I would love. Listen, I would love to do a horror musical.

[B]

Oh, my goodness.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do we have a true. Because Sweeney Todd isn't really a.

[A]

Depends on. Depends on. It's a thriller.

[B]

It's a thriller. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

The Pie Shop for me was like the only time it ever was a thriller. The last revival was a comedic paper mill production. But. And that's not me being shady. Like, everyone involved in that production is like, it's a comedy. I'm like, no, it isn't. It says thriller on the poster. God damn it. But I remember seeing Fat Hammond just being really surprised by how funny it was and how inventive it was, how tight it was. Again, I just saw a three hour Lachiusa musical. So like an hour. An hour 45 play in and out. Was thrilled.

[B]

It's very tight.

[A]

And I went to the library again to rewatch it. I wanted to watch the public production. I don't think they ended up filming it there. Maybe they did. And they just gave me the Broadway one just on a whim because I said, fat Ham. And they just like, great, go here. Yeah, they gave me Broadway and everything was mostly fine. It started skipping after the what a piece of work is, man. It started to skip a little bit during the Larry and Juicy scene. And then when Juicy was doing what a piece of work is, man, that's when it like fully started to skip. So I was like, I had to stop it and just read the script to be like, and what happened again.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And that was. And that was that.

[B]

But I remember that's a pretty important part.

[A]

It is. But I do. I do vividly remember the ending, so. Or like, I wanted to remember how we got there. Yeah, we will talk about the ending and how we got there. First, let us take a quick break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire.

[B]

And we back.

[A]

So our main character is Juicy. Yes, that is Hamlet in Gaiman's terms. What is Juicy's? Oh, so I meant to say this also in the interview with James Ies, they were like, what is Fat Ham about? And he says, it's about this queer black man, Juicy, and the play is him knowing that he's supposed to die and trying to figure out how not to Because Juicy's. It seems like Juicy is the only. They all know they're in a play of some sort. Juicy is the only one who knows that the play is supposed to be Hamlet. Yeah. Tragedy. And so he is always, like, trying to think of ways out of it. And yet, because he is who he is, cannot help but indulge in all the ways that's propelling the plot forward. But what is it? What is his predicament? What has happened to Juicy at the top of this play?

[B]

Well, his father has died.

[A]

Been murdered.

[B]

Has been. Well, he isn't. He doesn't know that, does he?

[A]

They know that he got stabbed in prison.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But they just.

[B]

But they just assumed he was. He was dead.

[A]

Yeah, they're like, you know, I've seen Oz. He gets stabbed in prison, you get shanked.

[B]

Yes, yes. His father has died, and immediately his mother marries his brother. His. His uncle.

[A]

His uncle.

[B]

And the. Where we find him is right after they come back from the. Just of the piece. Yeah. And they're celebrating with a barbecue and their friends are coming over and, you know. And then the ghost appears.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then the drama starts to ensue. Because the ghost tells him to kill to avenge his death.

[A]

Yes. Because he informs Juicy. Pap informs Juicy that Rev, his uncle, was the. Was the one who carried out his murder. He's got someone on the inside to kill Pap. And then Juicy is basically conflicted with that the entire rest of the play.

[B]

Yeah, that's the Hamlet aspect.

[A]

That is the Hamlet aspect. And every character has a connection to Hamlet. If I have my script right here, which I was given through my Tony Ward connections. Thank you so much.

[B]

Oh, thank you, Tony person.

[A]

They also gave us barbecue sauce. And by us, I mean they gave my Tony Award friend barbecue sauce, and my friend gave it to me.

[B]

What kind of barbecue sauce?

[A]

I don't remember. I ate it. Yes. I ate it so fast.

[B]

It's good.

[A]

I think it was honey barbecue.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I prefer a little Tangier, but also.

[B]

Like a little more vinegar. Well, they talk about the sauce in the show has. Is vinegar. It's not vinegar based, but the vinegar gives a tang.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. Listen, I'm never going to turn down a bottle of barbecue sauce, but do I have my preferences? Absolutely.

[B]

What's your. What's your favorite barbecue sauce?

[A]

I like smoky smokehouse barbecue sauce. Oh, yeah. I like that flavor. I like a little kick to it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I mean, I'll just put it on anything. I prefer it to ketchup. If I'm being Honest.

[B]

Really? You have barbecue sauce in lieu of ketchup? Yeah. On a burger?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, I guess they are.

[A]

And fries.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And not a hot dog. I won't do it on a hot dog.

[B]

Okay, hot dog.

[A]

I always do ketchup and mustard with some potato chips on top of that.

[B]

Gives a little crunch. Yeah, I like that.

[A]

I love a good crunch. Crunch, crunch, bitch. But so Juicy is our Hamlet. He's. Let me read these character descriptions for you. Our protagonist is juicy. Is thick Cece, 20 to 21, black. He's beautiful. He is lonely. He is smart. A kind of Hamlet.

[B]

A kind of Hamlet, Yes.

[A]

Next up is Teedra. Is Juicy's mother. 45 to 50, black. She is a good mother. James wants us to know this.

[B]

She is a good mother.

[A]

A kind of Gertrude. Rev is Teedra's husband. 45 to 50, black. Her dead ex husband's brother, pig farmer and pit master, electric. A kind of Claudius. Same actor as Pap. And then Pap is the ghost of Juicy's father appears.45ish. Black was in prison for killing someone because of their. Because their breath stank till he got shanked on the way to dinner. A kind of Hamlet's father. Then we have Opal. Is one of Juicy's only friends, 19 to 20. She loves juicy and worries about him. A kind of Ophelia. How many different ways can I describe this? Larry is a boy that is attracted to Juicy. Spoiler alert. James, 21 to 23, a Marine trying to heal from PTSD, has a secret, awkward kind of Laertes. And then we have Rab. Is it Rabbi? Rabbi. I didn't say Rabbi.

[B]

It is.

[A]

It's spelled R A, Rabbi. R A, B, B, Y. Larry and opal's mother, she's 40, 40 to 45. Tedra's friend, Semi churchy, but honestly, she just want to drink and praise the Lord.

[B]

Semi.

[A]

Yeah, but.

[B]

Oh, I guess that makes sense. That makes sense because.

[A]

Well, because in the Broadway production, she's in full get up with the fascinator and everything.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

But I think they're the Huntington Theater one.

[B]

Yeah. Was. She was a little more reserved. But the Wilma one that I watched, she was also in full regalia. In the top of it, she loses the hat.

[A]

Yeah, I think you can have fun with that. That's a kind of Polonius. Very obvious that that one's Polonius. And then tio clever. 20 to 40. Jesus.

[B]

40.

[A]

We're just having fun with that age. Right?

[B]

He's a comic relief. So, I mean, you can do whatever you want.

[A]

Black or Afro. Latinx. Juicy's cousin, Oldest friend. A kind of Horatio.

[B]

It would mean something else if he's 40, though. If Juicy's supposed to be 20 and Tio is 40, it's a very different relationship.

[A]

Exactly. And, well, it means that their childhoods are so different because they talk about their childhood a little bit, and you get the understanding that they were close in age. But if tio is, like, 20 years older than Juicy, it doesn't make sense.

[B]

It doesn't work. Especially because Teal is the one that's like. That explains trauma, because that's something that he's comfortable. I don't know. I guess it could work, but.

[A]

But then also talks about his nocturnal omissions of T drop.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, well, so if he's five years younger than Teedra, that doesn't make sense.

[B]

It's not as weird.

[A]

Yeah. Most. You really only get those wet dreams in your. In your pubescent stage. You get them as frequently and involuntarily.

[B]

You can still get them as. As. As an adult. If you haven't. If you haven't been active enough.

[A]

If you haven't been choking the bishop enough. Yeah.

[B]

Correct. Yeah. It still happens.

[A]

Yes. If you haven't been juicing the ham.

[B]

You'Ve been too busy. Which.

[A]

Too busy. Too tired, too sad.

[B]

Yes. Mostly sad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's hard for me to be sad, Jason, because I look in the mirror and I go, sometimes there's God. So quickly. That's a streetcar reference. For those of you who listened to.

[B]

That episode, I thought you were gonna say something about, like, I don't know, your looks. About, you know.

[A]

About how my looks are awful. No, my looks are stunning.

[B]

They are absolutely stunning.

[A]

No notes.

[B]

No, no, no. You have no Muppet qualities.

[A]

No, no. But. So when. How. I'm trying to find a way in. What is something you want to talk about? About this play. I was trying to start in on Juicy, but then I got distracted. You tell me what you want.

[B]

I think the best thing about this play is how it discusses. It's like a. It's like a term paper on trauma. On trauma in the family. Sure. It's. It's. Watching it today, I didn't even notice how well they set it up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I was watching it originally. But breaking how it discusses how one goes about breaking the cycle of family trauma, which is something that is eternal. It's very universal. Another reason why I think it went to Pulitzer.

[A]

Yeah. Well, because that's something that was being spoken of a lot during lockdown was inherited trauma.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Of things that you can't understand why you feel a certain kind of way. And it relates to generations of trauma that has never been addressed. It's never been processed. That is manifesting in you. Because that shit does. Right.

[B]

It changes your DNA.

[A]

It does.

[B]

Especially, you know, in. In black. In African American. In the African American culture because of slavery and everything. It's. It actually changes our DNA, which I find interesting.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[B]

Well.

[A]

And then. And it just never, ever, like, let up. It just. It just morphed into something else.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And something that can be deadly in others. It's like a. It's a cancer.

[A]

Yeah. It's. When you aren't. When you are not acknowledging your feelings, there's this weird thing, especially with men of all races and cultures, where showing emotion is considered a weakness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When actually suppressing it is what gives you ulcers. And cancer.

[B]

And cancer.

[A]

Yeah. And it's so like, crying is a natural response. Frustration is a natural response. Like hate is a natural response.

[B]

It.

[A]

You need to let it out, because if you don't, it will fucking eat you.

[B]

Eat you a lot. I mean, I listen to. I think I wrote it down. There was a point where. Where Rev was. Well, people. People refer to Juicy in so many different ways. They refer to him as soft.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And sensitive and. And weird. But he kind of. I think that he knows how to internalize that because then he sings Creep, which I think is such a great response.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To all the things are coming at him. But there's a moment with him and Rev where he. He's basically like, be a man, essentially. He didn't say it, but you can feel that's what he wants to say. And that is such a prevalent issue in the black community that, I mean, I felt it very deeply. Bless you.

[A]

Thank you. Well, and it's so easy when the play begins because we know about the whole Gertrude marries Claudius and all this other stuff. So you know that Teetra has married Rev.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And Pap is dead. We find out that Pap has been dead a week. But what we learn quickly. So first, also, the play begins on Broadway. What they did was the actor playing Tio came running down the aisle with a boombox that was blaring celebration. And the stage is the backyard of their house of Rev, Teedra and Juicy's house. And they've got decorations everywhere. And James I'mes says in the stage directions, like, it needs to look like the most last minute party ever.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

He's like, the balloons are from a baby shower, the sparklings are from a wedding. Like it's. Everything is slapped together last minute. But so with that, with the look, with the music, we're already being told, like, this is not gonna. We're not starting heavy. This is. It's light. It's light first of all, because we are at a party. And then like the very first thing that we see is Teo on his phone watching porn.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

Only the script says only fans. They want it to be made very clear. Oh, I think so.

[B]

That way curated.

[A]

Well, maybe. Yeah. Probably has a. Somebody that he subscribes to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But also, in a way, there's some free accounts. There are some free accounts or, you know, people will rip videos.

[B]

But what you can do that.

[A]

You can rip anything.

[B]

Let's talk later.

[A]

You know, you can rip anything on the Internet.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I don't do that, but I just don't know how. But I think I actually, I talked about this to someone the other day about porn, of how it's sort of how the culture of porn has evolved in terms of what we like, of what we. What we look for now. It used to be a lot of scripted stuff and. Yeah. And studio stuff. And now it's a lot more just fantasy. Not even fantasy. Like, there's a lot of just like. Like let's look at gay porn. Like the Sean Cody's of it all or the Jake Cruz's of it all, where it's just like two guys talking in front of the camera and then just going for it. And the. The idea supposedly being this is real. You're watching two guys genuinely enjoy each other. It's not just for a scene.

[B]

Yeah. Can we say fuck on this podcast?

[A]

I think we said it 10 times already, but yes, you can.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yes, we can absolutely say fuck, piss and shit.

[B]

Love it, Love it.

[A]

This we. I mean, we did a three hour south park bicker, longer and uncut episode.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You really think we got through all of that without saying fuck Exactly.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[A]

But so I think onlyfans became the progression of that. Of. Well, you know, there's still Sean Cody and all those other places. Like, that's still kind of curated. There's like talent scout. It's. There's. There's a filter system. A lot of those guys are gay for pay. Like, but onlyfans, that is someone out there in the world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is them with their person or their friend. And, like, they're just genuinely going for it. Like, it's the most intimate and we feel the most, like, included in all. Like, it's. It's hottest. Because we think we can believe even further that it's genuine pleasure on the screen.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

It's like the, like.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The last veil of artifice we could possibly believe ourselves into thinking is. Is pulled away with.

[B]

Only it's like a notch above amateur porn.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, it is amateur porn, but it is amateur. It's very curated.

[A]

It's amateur porn with what's wrong for agency.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Autonomy.

[B]

There's a lot of crossover. A lot of artists who like.

[A]

Oh, yeah, so many collabs. It's like, become the new YouTube. Oh, my God. My God. Not a crossover collab. Me and these other five accounts doing a nice little lazy Susan gangbang where we spin me around right around baby bukkake. More like bukay K bouquet. How about some bukkake bouquet? Oh, God. Is this gonna be the episode that gets me canceled?

[B]

Yeah. I'm glad to be a part of it, guys.

[A]

This was a sting operation from Jason all along.

[B]

It was Jason all along.

[A]

I still need to watch that sequel. The Agatha sequel.

[B]

I'm watching it. It's. It's good. I hear it's actually this. This week is when I finally got on board. I was like, oh, I. Now I know. Now I know what this show's about.

[A]

Well, in fairness, that was how a lot of people felt about WandaVision. It took.

[B]

That is true.

[A]

It took like three or four episodes for people to realize what was happening.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But with Fat Ham, this is just me in a nutshell with that. Yeah. So, like, we start off knowing that this is the vibe. It's energy, it's light. And Juicy is also the only one in black. And no one else is mourning Paps death. And Juicy, even, like, Juicy, gets confronted a lot because as an audience, we are already prejudice against Gertrude of doing this, like, super tacky, almost vile thing. And she's aware of it. She even, like, looks out of the audience. She goes, they're judging me. But we learn pretty quickly. Like, Pap, her dead husband, wasn't a nice man. And for all intents and purposes was Rev is actually kinder to her than Pap is. He still has his stuff and we'll get into all that. But, like, Pap was far more physically abusive, while Rev is a little more mentally abusive and controlling. Pap, you know, we learned how to violent streak. He was very Hard on Juicy. And we learned when it went to jail for killing one of the employees at his barbecue restaurant because breath stank. His breath stank.

[B]

And Lex, he was rotting from the inside.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I understand though.

[A]

I do too.

[B]

I get it.

[A]

There are people who are like, it goes beyond halitosis. Like there's something wrong with you.

[B]

See a doctor.

[A]

Yeah. Well, that's something else. It's the thing about not to go into south park mode again. But farts. Like it's, it's, it's, sometimes you need to do it. It's, it's an emission of gas that just, it happens. It's natural with everyone. You can tell when it's something like you ate that's just like very spicy or whatever. Sometimes it's like your bowel movements are on their way. You better get ready. And then there's. Yeah. And then there's others where like did something die?

[B]

Die in you?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you eat too many eggs? Do you just eat sulfur?

[A]

Yeah. Do you have cancer of the everywhere? Like that's what I want to know. And that is what we ultimately are told that this employee had that. And because Juicy even says when he's like, my dad was so cold blooded. He, he went up to an employee who all he said was like, how are you doing today? And he took out his knife and he like cut his neck so deep the head came off.

[B]

It came off.

[A]

And then there's a PNG's like now.

[B]

To be fair, I, I, I love this, this aspect of fat ham.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it feels. I don't. We can talk about this now. We can feel free to move.

[A]

We're gonna, we're gonna go all over the place.

[B]

Okay. Great. I love that because Juicy doesn't think that he is his father. He thinks that he's very different. And his, his pap says, you are like me. And then we find out later when he outs Larry that and Larry says to him, you can be really cruel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can be really mean sometimes. And then. And that I think that's a really interesting like, oh, that, that, that darkness is also in me. That's been, that trauma's been passed down to me.

[A]

Yeah. Because violence isn't always just physical. It's emotional. It's mental.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is a case where Juicy took advantage of the trust someone had in him to make a point. That had nothing to do with Juicy anyway.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

He was just lashing out and hurt someone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then Larry and kind physically hurt in the inter.

[B]

Yeah. Fuck around and Find out.

[A]

Truly.

[B]

That is that moment.

[A]

Truly. But, I mean, I think the. So we were talking about this, like, the. The generational trauma, this. The cycle of abuse and the cycle of toxicity, especially toxic masculinity, toxic suppression, toxic inner racism, inner homophobia, inner sexism. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think. I don't know if we've ever talked about this. Jason and I are famously very, very, very dear friends who've spoken many times a day. But we did have a really Lovely conversation at 9th Avenue Saloon about Hell's Kitchen, but.

[B]

Yes. Yes, we did.

[A]

Yes. I have always felt that all marginalized. All marginalized groups, for some reason or other, act out a tier system within them. It's like. You see it always. Yeah, absolutely. And you see it in prisons too. Yeah, it's like. Like, yeah, I may be gay, but, like, I'm not a super feminine gay. I'm pretty masc. I could pass. Or, like, yeah, I'm. Or let's do something even lighter, though.

[B]

Look at their gay community.

[A]

Yeah, but, like, also, like, a lighter community. The musical theater kid community.

[B]

Oh, goodness gracious.

[A]

You do do musicals for a living. Yeah, Like, I do musicals. Like, I don't. I don't watch musicals. I don't know all the Sondheim stuff. Like, I'm not that kind of person. Like, I'm just. I just have to be talented and hot and, like, I don't know. I get work sometimes. Like, it's this.

[B]

Even the theater community, because then you have people who are like, oh, I don't like musicals.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, God. I have friends who get cast musicals pretty consistently, and they consider themselves play actors, and they get so mad when they get cast in musicals. I'm like, do you want to turn down the job?

[B]

Because I'll take it.

[A]

I'll take it.

[B]

I'm dying to do a book musical. Yeah, Listen, and everyone. I'm dying to do a book musical. There we go.

[A]

Cast me in Finding Neverland and watch me spin gold.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Out of covered straw. I will do it.

[B]

I didn't see that. I didn't even see it.

[A]

I didn't need to.

[B]

Yeah. Wait, did I. Wait, no.

[A]

Have you ever seen.

[B]

Yes, I did see Funny Enough. Sorry. I say that.

[A]

I was gonna say. I was gonna say, have you ever seen a Lifetime movie? Have you ever seen musical at all? Have you ever seen a fantasy movie? Did you ever see that movie Just Friends with Ryan Reynolds and Amy Smart?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay. It's. Ryan Reynolds is going. It comes back home for a spell after he used to be heavier and geekier. But he comes back 10 years later, and he looks like Ryan Reynolds, and he's still crushing on his old high school sweetheart or high school crush and his mom, Julie Halston of Airplane fame.

[B]

Thank you. Oh, wow.

[A]

Julie. Julie Haggerty.

[B]

Not Julie Michael?

[A]

Yeah, no, Julie Haggerty. His mom, Julie Haggerty. He's like, I. I need to impress her with my skating skills. And she's like, you don't have to do anything. You just have to be yourself. Be yourself. Be yourself.

[B]

Is there music?

[A]

No, it's just. No, it's just her doing that solo. It's her being Julie Haggerty. It's that plus the Imagination Song from the Imagination Land trilogy of south park that is Finding Neverland for two and a half hours.

[B]

Jesus Christ.

[A]

It's. It goes back and forth between Be yourself, Be yourself and Imagination. Imagination, Imagination. I love it. I love it so much.

[B]

It's one of those. I clearly forgot that I saw it. But there are those shows.

[A]

There are those shows. But the tier system that I'm referring to, though, just like, so with Fathom, Juicy absolutely believes he is above everyone. He doesn't. He doesn't openly acknowledge it. He keeps trying to deny it, but.

[B]

It'S clear from just how he alienates himself.

[A]

Yeah, he alienates himself and judges and. And puts himself outside of the action and is the. He is in control of the fourth wall breaking. So whenever anybody else breaks the fourth wall, it's with him as, like, their co pilot. Yeah, Right. It's very fleabag in a way.

[B]

I never saw Fleabag. A whole pandemic. I never watched it.

[A]

Why do you hate women?

[B]

Oh, well, I can't say on the.

[A]

Podcast, but, you know, it's because they don't have penises.

[B]

It's because they don't have penises. Big penises. Well, they have penises like things, but it does. It's not as big as a penis.

[A]

Yes, there's. There's a whole episode of Sex and City about this. Is there when Samantha goes gay for two episodes. 3.

[B]

That's a long time. I was. I was in college for that. I barely remember anything.

[A]

I was barely.

[B]

Alcohol killed those memories.

[A]

Yeah, well, it can kill many things, but no, like, yeah, Juicy. He's often the one reflecting out to the audience, and especially when I was watching as much of the Lincoln center recording as I could. The way they had Marcel Spears. He, like, even when he wasn't saying anything to break the fourth wall, there were times when he would just look out at the audience to give a reflection. For example, there's. There's a great moment that is Rev talking about the secret of the pork, of how it falls to the bone. Because he's like, it's not about the sauce. It's not about this. He's like, it's how you tenderize it. It's all about the rubber. And then Juicy says, ah, there's the rub.

[B]

Genius.

[A]

Yeah. Which is a fabulous, fabulous connection. And Mars and I've watched three different people do it different ways. One did it, you know, smirking to himself like, ah, there's a rub. Knowing the reference he's making. Another one did it just sort of like silly. And then Marcel did it, looking out to the audience with sort of like a little tada shoulder. Like, like, there it is. That's.

[B]

There's Hamlet.

[A]

There's Hamlet. That's what you've been waiting for. Like, does the hair tuck behind the ear where there's no hair? Like you're just sucking air and it was great. And, and, but it takes off, Rev, because even if he doesn't know what Juicy saying, he knows the attitude behind it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Even if you don't understand the words, you can understand the tone. Absolutely. Yeah. It's why I, I again, I'm all scattered brain today.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

But Patton Oswald has a whole bit in one of his standups about how, like, we need to think about the tone and the purpose behind what people say. So if they use the wrong word once in a while, you can not yell at them and go totally hear what you're trying to say. Let's change that word.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that person isn't the enemy. He's like, you know, who does learn all the right words? He's like, the enemy. So they can trick you into thinking that what they're saying is, oh, we're.

[B]

Going through that right now.

[A]

Oh, absolute. But that's the thing was Rev doesn't know the words, but he knows the tone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he doesn't like it one bit. Because there's one thing men don't like.

[B]

It's to be Feel inferior.

[A]

Feel inferior to be laughed at.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And that's why he. That's why he ultimately loses his cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, especially when he gets him to confess.

[A]

He does. Yes, he will. He. Yeah, he eventually sort of pushes the pressure on him because Pap tells Juicy, you must avenge my death. And Juicy doesn't know what the hell to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He doesn't think he can murder someone. Half of the play is him debating whether he can actually go through with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cuz he even says to Pappy, he's like, do you mean like metaphorically kill him? He's like, no, I mean kill him. He's like, I mean, stab him in the throat. She's like, I don't wanna. And like starts it off with Tio, just hypothetically. Cuz Tio also sees Papsco. So we know that it's real.

[B]

Yes, he's the only one. Because when, because when he comes back, Tedra doesn't see it.

[A]

Tedra doesn't see. Nobody sees papa except for Tio. And, and that's interesting.

[B]

I, I, I didn't think about that.

[A]

Yeah. But it also makes sense in Hamlet, because in Hamlet, the only person, only people who see the ghost other than Hamlet are the guards. At the beginning.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I guess Horatio, I guess informs Hamlet because of the guards. But like Gertrude never sees the ghost when Hamlet sees him in her bedroom. Claudius never sees him. It's so there's the whole thing of people would say like, oh, is Hamlet just mad? I'm like, well, if Hamlet were mad, we wouldn't have a scene establishing somebody else also seeing the ghost or thinking they see the ghost.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we know that Juicy's not insane because Tio saw him as well. Or at least flashes of him.

[B]

Well, he, he said it was your Pap. I saw your Pap.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and when he realized I wasn't you, he fled.

[B]

So I love that.

[A]

Yeah, Pap came on a mission also. I gotta say, I, I remember, I still remember to this day. And I was so happy to watch it again at like in center library, Pap's first real entrance. Because what they first do is like, it's all normal, whatever. We have this little wreath for Paps photo to show that he's being memorialized as well as this other thing is happening. Tio's talking about porn, he's talking about something else. And then when Juicy goes off stage for a second, the lights change and a picnic tablecloth flies across the stage. Absolutely. And then Pap comes on stage covered in the tablecloth, and that's all we see. And he runs off when he realizes that Juicy's not there. And couple minutes go by, more scene happens and then Juicy's alone on stage and it's like a sandbox or something on the floor. But Pap rises from the floor covered in the tablecloth. But he looks like. It's like when Freddy Krueger Comes out of the bed sheet at the end of Nightmare on Elm Street.

[B]

Oh my. That's my favorite. One of my favorite moments in Nightmare on Elm Street.

[A]

But you know what I'm talking about. Like, it's almost like he's covered. Like he's like pushing through spandex or something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cuz. Cuz the sheet is so tight. But yeah. Pap rises up through the floor and then rips off the. The. The cloth and it's just like a bundle of energy and his. And his gray suit is just smoking.

[B]

Yeah, that's.

[A]

Yeah, it's so good. But like, he's also filled with rage and filled with vengeance and like his, his desire for Juicy to avenge has nothing to do with affection for Juicy or like his bloodline. It's just Juicy is someone he thinks he can manipulate and, and, and overpower into doing what he wants.

[B]

Yeah. From the grave.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know if the play says that he chooses to haunt Juicy or if, like, that's just what the afterlife has allowed him to haunt, but he does say, like, he knows more about the afterlife and the rules of haunting more than Juicy does. Because Juicy tries to butt heads with it. He's like, you do not get to tell me.

[B]

I've been dead a week. I got this.

[A]

Yes. It's very Cynthia Erivo being like, don't tell me how to feel about the wicked.

[B]

Hot button issues.

[A]

Yep. By the time this comes out, it'll be so over.

[B]

It'll be nothing. I think the movie will be almost nothing now. Yeah, it really. I think it should be a non issue.

[A]

It should be. It's. We're. We're leaving it alone. Yeah, it was a nice punchline.

[B]

It was a nice punchline. Sorry, sorry, I elaborate on it, but.

[A]

No, please elaborate on it if you want. But I think it's just. It's the family dynamic is what keeps you from immediately judging Tedra. Then it's just you get to hear about how Pap was a bully. You see Pap be a bully. Yeah. And then you're like, well, okay, so maybe like him and he was in prison for a while, so it's like you wonder, okay, maybe in some weird way like this was. This marriage to Rev is a long time coming of healing and release for Teedra and Rev. Rev at first seems like a fun guy. He like, comes in all energy and positive vibes. It's when Juicy keeps trying to undermine it that we see that, oh no, he is Pap's brother, but also, also.

[B]

Rev Makes a lot of remarks towards him.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Even though the whole family does, including the friends, because even Rabbi has something to say.

[A]

Oh, Robbie has nothing but opinions.

[B]

Well, she's. That's another thing that I enjoyed about the, The. The play as well, is their talk about religion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And how religion is used to justify behavior. Like, there's a point where teachers something about marriages and how people just married each other in the Bible and so there's nothing wrong with what she's doing.

[A]

Yeah. She goes, oh, you're all judging me for marrying my husband's brother so soon after you died. They did it in the Bible all the time.

[B]

Yeah. It's a very real thing that people do. You're always using that, that book to justify bad behavior.

[A]

Yeah. Well, and in a way, teacher is also very self aware because when she and Juicy have a bit of a heart to heart. They have two heart to hearts. The first one is. I think it's either right before Rev comes on stage or right after Rev and Juicy have their first sort of altercation. I know it's after they have their first altercation.

[B]

It's just. It's just them. The two of them.

[A]

Yes. It's the first time that. It's when Rev hits him. Because is. Rev's like, oh, I'm gonna, you know, come on, just. You, like, have a. Have a hit at me. Because Juicy's being a bit of a prick and doing.

[B]

Oh, yeah, the punching.

[A]

And then. Yeah, and then he punches him in the stomach and then goes off stage. And then Teacher's like. She's like, to be fair, honey, you were being annoying. And she loves her son and she will defend him as much as she can. But ultimately, what's most important to teacher is being with somebody having a quote unquote protector. And she says so herself. Because Juicy's like, you ever want to be alone? She goes, no, I hate silence. She goes, I went from my father's house to your dad's house. Now I'm with Rev. Like, I. I need the comfort of chaos around me. It's what helps me sleep. I'm. I'm paraphrasing, but no, that's.

[B]

Yeah, people get comfortable with trauma.

[A]

The rest is silence, as a play called Hamlet once said.

[B]

Is that. Is that in Hamlet?

[A]

Isn't that in Hamlet? The rest is silence. I know it from hair as well, but I'm pretty sure that's from hair.

[B]

I don't know. I was gonna. I was gonna revisit Hamlet before, Before we did this, but I was.

[A]

Let me look this up.

[B]

I was busy this week.

[A]

This might be one of those cases where I was talking out of my ass and it didn't work in my favor this time.

[B]

I'll be amazed if it is. I don't remember that line at all.

[A]

The rest is silence. It is Hamlet.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

What am I, cultured? I love it so much.

[B]

That's very interesting. This is a very well crafted adaptation. It's not an adaptation.

[A]

No, I think an adapt. I think calling it adaptation is absolutely fair.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because the characters would not exist without Hamlet. The basic premise would not exist without Hamlet.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Where it is not a direct adaptation is where James Iams is like, let me have fun. And also make this something more than just like, hey, fun spin. Like, I think this is where this differs from something like Fire island, let's say, is that Fire island follows the movie Fire Island.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. What does it follow?

[A]

Pride and Prejudice.

[B]

I didn't know that.

[A]

Have you read Pride and Prejudice? Listen again. You hate women.

[B]

I hate women. I know. I have. No, I actually, I did talk about that this week. Someone else. I. I did this. I filmed this movie this week that was set in 1912.

[A]

Humble brag.

[B]

Yes. And Pride and Prejudice came up for some reason, I don't remember. And I said, I've actually never. I've never read it, never had to. So I don't know. It never read it, never had to, never had to. So I didn't. It was on PBS every single week, and I changed the channel.

[A]

Jane Austen books are wonderful. We have enough really amazing film adaptations of them that you actually don't ever have to read them because they are. It takes you 100 pages to sync in with the language.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

And once you've done that, like, it flies by, but it takes that hundred pages. But yeah. Fire island is directly based off of Pride and Prejudice openly. So they even, like, make a reference to it early on. And they follows Pride and Prejudice pretty beat for beat.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it's clever how Joel Kim booster can find ways to make it work for queer culture, but I also don't think that it elaborates beyond that. Whereas, like, Pride and Prejudice has a lot to say about the institution of marriage and also what it takes to fall in love. And it takes all different types and all different kinds of ways for love to flourish. Right. And for people to fall in love. And in order to properly fall in love, you do have to let go of your head a little bit and allow your heart a Bit. But also, you can't let your heart be the only deciding factor.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Fat Ham takes Hamlet to give it its basic premise, the majority of its structure, I would say. Not like it's not beat for beat.

[B]

The conflicts.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. I think James Iams is like, okay, of this nine hour play, when do things actually happen? Great. These five things happened.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

These five things will all be in my play who are like my main characters. Great. And then goes from there and then makes them all different because, like, Larry is so different from Laertes 100. Opal is so different from Ophelia.

[B]

Oh, my goodness. I love Opal.

[A]

What's not to love?

[B]

I don't remember the production I watched with the Wilma. I remember her being as butch on Broadway.

[A]

She wasn't. She was pretty. Well, first of all, she shows up in the dress. Right. Like, that's the whole point is that she's in a dress and it's supposed to seem awkward. And it doesn't help that the actress who did it on Broadway was a very feminine, beautiful woman.

[B]

She's gorgeous.

[A]

Yeah. And she did not. No, you're right. She did not play it, but she mostly just played it over it and uncomfortable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they gave her the dress with a hoodie and.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I've just seen so many Tiffany girls in. In New York high schools do that same thing that I'm like, that's not reading, like lesbian to me. That's reading comfort.

[B]

Comfort. And I'm cold.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

The. The Wilma production, she had pants underneath.

[A]

Ah.

[B]

So I thought that was a really great. A great way to show that.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And then at the end, she takes it off and good for her. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

No, I love that. I think I. Because Opal is a lesbian. Juicy is guy. Opal and Larry are siblings. And the whole point of Opal is that she and Larry, like, Larry wants to always help their mother. Rabbi. Whereas Opal is always kind of trying.

[B]

To get away from her.

[A]

Yes, exactly. And the irony is that Rabbio is. Rabbi knows she has Larry's heart, so she doesn't ask Larry for things. She's trying to basically get Opal in line and also make her more like a girl. So she's always been like, opal, help me with this. And Larry's like, I'll help you. And she's like, I asked Opal.

[B]

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That little B plot. I. It's a great expansion of the to be or not to be phrase. Again, like, because there is that other cycle where parents don't let them. The kids do what the hell they want to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And breaking that cycle, and then she. She forced her mother to break that cycle for her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which people don't always have the opportunity to do. Like Larry. Yeah.

[A]

Well, I think it's. It's the idea, because there's the. There's so much talk of respect and especially of respecting your elders in the black community.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that's. And also in the Jewish community.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[A]

I think we're gonna find some similarities today between you and I, Jason.

[B]

There are a lot of some. My, My friend Bobby and I talk about this all the time, how. How close our cultures are.

[A]

Who's Bobby?

[B]

Oh, you know, Bobby. Bobby. Bobby. Bobby Underwood.

[A]

Bobby Underwood, yeah. Related to Carrie?

[B]

I don't believe so, but possible.

[A]

Possible. I, I did not know that you knew other Jewish boys. I thought. I thought I was the one.

[B]

You are the o. You know what? Today, you are the only Jewish boy that I know, Jason.

[A]

But the idea of respecting your elders and also of family is the ultimate right. It's. It's like. Like, it is what you always have, and it's what you always come back to, and it's what you always owe. Like, you always owe family. You. Like, you're gonna do it no matter what. No questions asked and Juicy Opal are from the generation of our. Essentially our generation. It's like they are the millennial Gen Z generation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of why.

[B]

Like, why are we doing this?

[A]

Yeah. And, like, you want me to respect you. Acts in a way that's worthy of respect.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that's the way it should be, I believe.

[A]

Yeah. There's.

[B]

Give it, get it.

[A]

Not to quote myself, but there's a line in my play that, granted, I stole from my therapist at the time, Colton, which was that there's a difference between family and a relative.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Family is someone who's there for you.

[B]

When you need them. Absolutely.

[A]

A relative is someone who shows up for you in a blood test or when someone dies. Well, yes, but just more the idea of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you can be family, quote unquote, because of your DNA, but you're not. You're more of a relative, and you can be a friend and be family.

[B]

I think gays, the gay community has really embraced that. I mean, we. We are all about chosen family. I mean, I, I, My chosen family is. I think that is closer to me than my blood relatives at the moment. So. Yeah.

[A]

I'm just saying golden girls lead the way.

[B]

Golden girls yeah. Oh, yeah. That's another chosen family.

[A]

Golden Girls. Sex and the City. It's. It's. The Golden Girls is. You're my family. Sex and the City is. You guys are my soulmates. And. But I think there's something.

[B]

Lady.

[A]

Yeah. With the fifth lady.

[B]

Yeah, the fifth lady.

[A]

What fifth lady?

[B]

The fifth lady is the New York City. That's the. Remember the last. Was the last episode, Sex and City, where they're like, that's.

[A]

No, that's. No, that's. That's the SNL skit making fun of Sex and the City.

[B]

No, it's in. It's in the show.

[A]

Are you sure?

[B]

Actually, I actually watched it.

[A]

I'm pretty sure it's Christine Aguilera as Samantha going lady New York. You're the fifth. Wh. At this table.

[B]

Because they said it in the show.

[A]

I don't think they do.

[B]

I'm. I'm almost positive they did.

[A]

I think someone incepted you.

[B]

Wait, Google that.

[A]

I don't want to right now.

[B]

I. I don't. I don't. I could have been accepted. I don't fall asleep on planes.

[A]

You know what?

[B]

For that very reason, I will go.

[A]

Google this as we take this next break. All right, Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred As. And we're back. So we ultimately don't have a final answer on that question because Jason insists it was in the last season of Sex and the City. It might have been, but that would require us to go through every script of every episode of that season.

[B]

And I ain't doing that.

[A]

No time for this.

[B]

We ain't doing it.

[A]

No. Not the season of the Russian.

[B]

My. My drunk brain will just have to. My gin soaked brain will just have to think it remembers that.

[A]

Yes. But chosen families. But I think you can look at Opal and Larry and Juicy and even Tio in a way as like a bit of a chosen family.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, to be honest, though, even Robbie is a part of their. Their family's chosen family because they're just friends.

[A]

Yeah. They are childhood friends because Rabbi and Teedra are friends and they. So they grew up together.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But Opal and Juicy understand each other in a way in adulthood that they have a better bond than Juicy ever had with his dad or his uncle and probably has, like, has a very special bond with his mom. But can be honest and healthier with Opal than he can with his own mother.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, like, there's a level of trust that Larry has with his mom and with Opal, but also, like, because he recognizes a little bit of himself in Juicy. There is a chosen support system there. Right. And to is a cousin, but, like, we don't know what kind of cousin.

[B]

And cousins. And I don't know how it works in the Jewish community, but in the black community, a cousin can be anybody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I grew up thinking people were my cousins, my actual blood cousins. And people like, no.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're not even blood related.

[A]

Well, so in the Broadway iteration, they added a line because it's not in the script and the printed script, I should say. But in Broadway, they added a line. Tio's talking about how hot Teedra is, and Juicy says, that's your aunt. Broadway, they added Tia going through marriage. And then there's a beat, and Juicy goes, oh, right. What was I thinking?

[B]

That's funny.

[A]

Yeah. So you're absolutely correct. And the fact that that line isn't in the printed script, I think allows whatever production of Adam that happens to decide.

[B]

I love the James. There was an interview that I watched with James, and they talked about changing the words and things like that. He said, I don't mind. Which I love. Yeah, I love that. I think that because this is now a baby that lives in the world and is growing up and is changing and will have a life, I think that things like that should happen more.

[A]

Absolutely. There are certain. There's certain kind of writing where there is a specific rhythm and cadence.

[B]

Like a mammoth player.

[A]

Like a mammoth or a Sorkin. Like, they talk about Sorkin all the time. Is. You do have to be word perfect. And it's not because of his ego. Ego. It's just because how it's written. There is a specific melody to it, and when you mess it up, the just. The flow doesn't work anymore. Something like, something goes off.

[B]

Even in Camelot, they were doing walking talks.

[A]

They were doing walking slugs. I don't know that I.

[B]

That should never have happened.

[A]

I did not like that Camelot did not came.

[B]

I don't live for Camelot to begin with. Yeah, but that production was not. That was not it.

[A]

It was not it. I've often called it camel toe. It's also. I think you'd also call it camel. Less like. It's just. It just wasn't. It was not the one. But I do have listeners who really loved that production, and I Don't want to. Yuck theory. I'm too long.

[B]

No, no, not too long. But for me. In my life. In our lives.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Not from. Not for us.

[A]

Pippa Sue's crushed red. Red velvet dress. Stunning. Loved that dress.

[B]

Gorgeous gowns. Beautiful gowns.

[A]

Or at least that one. I can't. I can't speak on the rest of her gowns, but that one was beautiful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Andrew Burnap wore those black pants. And Jordan Donagha wanted you to believe he was a baritone, but Jordan Donagha.

[B]

Could talk to me.

[A]

That meant. No. That man has a beautiful voice, but he is a Barry tenor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And because I heard him in My Fair Lady, I heard him in into the woods, and then I saw him in Camelot.

[B]

I'm like, into the Woods?

[A]

Yeah. He was an understudy at City center and actually went on for. No, no, he was. No, he was Rapunzel's prince at City Center. What am I saying? He was. He was Rapunzel's princess.

[B]

I saw it.

[A]

Yeah. That was him. No, because I was.

[B]

Oh, no. Okay, so someone was sick.

[A]

Yes, he was sick. I had the facts mixed up. He was Rapunzel's prince.

[B]

Jason went on. When I saw it.

[A]

Yes. He got sick early in the encore's run. And Jason went on for, I think, the first week of the.

[B]

I didn't. I forgot about that because Jason did it. Well, Jason did the tour. Did Jason do the tour?

[A]

Yeah, Jason did everything. Does Jason listen to the podcast? No, he doesn't, but Jason did Rapunzel's Prince for the first week at Encores. Then Jordan came back, and that's when I saw Jordan do it. And then Jason was the understudy for both princes, I believe, as well as the baker on Broadway.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then it was Rapunzel's prince on the road and understudied Cinderella's prince and the baker again, I believe. Possibly.

[B]

Possible.

[A]

Possible. Yeah.

[B]

He's so talented. We love Jason Forbach. I think he's the sweetest man on the planet.

[A]

I love that. Yeah, yeah, He's. He's. He's good people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I'm excited to see him in.

[B]

Oh, in Wonderful. I'm seeing that next week.

[A]

Oh, amazing. No spoilers.

[B]

No spoilers whatsoever.

[A]

I'm gonna try to see it right before opening myself, but no, you know what show? There is no part for Jason Forbach in.

[B]

What?

[A]

Fat Ham.

[B]

Not one.

[A]

Not a single one.

[B]

No.

[A]

He can't even play the ham on the grill.

[B]

Yeah. It's a beautifully. You Know, we love our black cast shows.

[A]

We really do.

[B]

It's quite nice.

[A]

We really do have them. The. The. But you're talking about the dialogue. And then. Because at the library, as I was watching it, like, they often. They were pretty. Like. I don't want to say letter perfect, but like, it was pretty close to it most of the time. But every now and then there would be a speech or a line where all the words were correct. That some things would be a little inverted and actually sometimes made the lines better just because in that moment, how the actor was feeling and from their energy, they would add a word here, like a line would get shortened in a way, and it just fit. It all felt very natural. And that's sort of the point of Fathom is that it is a very natural play. The theatricality of it is always a surprise because it pops up. It's never. For me, I've always felt that Fat Ham was a day in the life. Except that every 30 minutes it reminds you that not only is it a play, but it's a play.

[B]

It's a play.

[A]

It's a play.

[B]

And they're playing.

[A]

Yeah, they are playing parts. They are playing typecasting of themselves. That's. I think that's the other thing which.

[B]

Makes the ending work so well.

[A]

Yeah, well, because they're all leaning into the stereotypes of who they're told they are. Right. For so much of that show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And to see. To get to the end where that all sort of gets stripped away is just so much fun. But. So I feel like the ending and what it means and all that is something we should make sure we carve out a solid 20 minutes for. Or five minutes, whatever, however long it takes. What else is there in your notes that you want to discuss? Because you have notes.

[B]

I have notes. I just wrote things down because I wasn't sure, you know, what we were going to talk about. So I just wrote, like, things I found that were interesting.

[A]

You and I do the exact same thing. It's just that I've now done this enough times that I write down the notes so my brain can remember, but I don't consult them anymore because I. They're there.

[B]

They're there. I wrote them down. Let's see. Oh, I love cycles of violence. We talked about that.

[A]

Yes, we did. Well, so think about then. Because you were talking about how when you rewatch it, knowing where it goes, how it actually sets the whole theme up better than you realize on first glance. Right.

[B]

Say it one more time, please.

[A]

You were Talking earlier about how when you watch or read Fat Ham again, knowing how it ends.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That the play sets up that theme of stopping that cycle earlier and better than you realize.

[B]

Yes. Oh, the teal. The teal speech. I didn't even clock that the first time I saw it.

[A]

Well, bookended. Because the first time is when Tio and Juicy both see Pap. Right.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And. And. And then Juicy's told by Pap, you know, avenge me. And then he and Tio are talking about it, and Tio's talking about, like, the cycles of trauma and the cycles of violence. And he's like, I'm not going to do a To impression, but the whole point of. The whole point of Tio is that he doesn't seem eloquent. He doesn't seem deep.

[B]

I love that type of a character. I love. I love the wise idiot 1000%.

[A]

The wise fool.

[B]

The wise fool as much. Almost as much as I love a quack doctor. But that's a whole different type of advice.

[A]

Sure, sure, sure, sure. But, yeah, because Teo comes in with that bit of advice when she sees. Saying, I don't know what to do and all this stuff. And Teo's like, well, you know, you're like, your dad wants you to act this way because his dad wanted him to act this way and his dad acted that way because of his dad. Like, that's just sort of where we're at. He goes. And at some point, it does to, you know, make light of a Blake Lively movie. It ends with us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You got. You have to be the one to end the carousel of. Of anger and violence and sadness going back to.

[B]

To be. To be.

[A]

Exactly. It is the question one might say.

[B]

Yeah, it is. I think there was a quote that James said something about to be. Or maybe I said this to be. I. I just wrote down. I didn't write any. Any name attached to it. I just said, to be or not to. To be or not to be is no longer the question.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which you either are or you aren't. Be yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think it's really great.

[A]

It's not to be or not to be. It's how to be.

[B]

How. Yes. How to be. How to be yourself.

[A]

Sometimes I go very deep. Like, you can't even find my elbow right now.

[B]

Is that what that tattoo is for?

[A]

You know, I don't have a tattoo. It's frowned on in Jewish culture.

[B]

Is it?

[A]

Yeah, you're not. You're. Apparently, you can't get buried in a Jewish cemetery if you have a tattoo?

[B]

I've knit. I didn't know that. Is it from something in the Torah that says you could. You can't like mar your body?

[A]

Sure, why not? I don't know. I just. It's been told enough to me. But also it could. That as far as I know, it's an old wives tale or it's a full online. My parents told me as a kid to make sure I didn't get a tattoo.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But I just always believed it. I'm pretty sure it's true. I mean, I intend to get a tattoo at some point. Just. There are three.

[B]

Where would you get it?

[A]

On my wrist. There are three things that have to happen in my life, and I won't say what they are, but three things that have to happen in order for me to get a tattoo. Two are on the sad side, one is on the happy side. And so when one of those three things happens, if one of those three things happens, that's when I get it.

[B]

This trifecta, this trifecta that we're looking for now.

[A]

I know, right? Well, the best things come in threes.

[B]

Do you have to like go through like a phantom toll booth or something like that to for this all to happen?

[A]

Oh, yeah. Do you not know about the. The Jewish phantom tollbooth?

[B]

I didn't know about it.

[A]

They, they tell you you have to pay $1.50 and you hackle them down to 75 cents.

[B]

Well done.

[A]

Thank you so much. The. Oh, actually, wait, I want to say this. This was a very juicy moment for me of. This is me play acting as juicy. So Yom Kippur was recently.

[B]

Uhhuh.

[A]

And do you know how Yom Kippur works?

[B]

Yom Kippur, Is that. Is that the fast? Yeah.

[A]

So I'm again, I am not religious and my family for the most part is not religious. We have a couple of people who will attend temple. My mom likes to go to temple because she likes the community. But also. And we'll. And we'll connect this to fat ham as well. Because of religion, of the structure of it all and the community of it all and the needing answers of some sort.

[B]

Right, okay.

[A]

And sometimes it like, really gives you clarity for your life, even if it's rooted in sometimes what you might describe a spaghetti monster in the sky telling you how the sea parted. But. But we were at the breakfast, which is at Yom Kippur. The whole point is that you are atoning for your sins. So you fast for like 24 to 36 hours, sundown to sundown to sundown or something like that. Like, okay, sundown the night before to sundown the day after. And you're also supposed to like not go out. You're not supposed to shower. You're really supposed to just like sit in your stew and. And atone.

[B]

There's benefits to that.

[A]

Yeah, well, like, whereas Catholics, it's like I have all this shame all the time and I have to go and self flagellate. Exactly. Jews are like, no, no, 36 hours a year. You like just sit and stew in it and then you let go of it. So the break fast, literally. Breakfast is that night when the sun comes down and you eat again. As I said, my family isn't terribly religious, but we do the gatherings for meals and whatnot. And breakfast is an easy go to. Because who doesn't want a bagel?

[B]

We love bagels.

[A]

And it was at my step grandmother's home and it was my family and her friends and there was enough of us and that we were separated by tables. So like her friends were in a dining room outside and we were in the dining room next to it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which makes it sound like she has two dining rooms. She doesn't. She has an actual dining room. And then she has like a hallway that she made a second dining room for her friends.

[B]

Oh, that's cool.

[A]

Yeah, it was very efficient. And so my table, it was me, my mom, my aunt, her second husband, my cousin, and my. And both of my grandmothers. And good for you. They're still 1 is 1001 is 93.

[B]

That's remarkable, ain't it?

[A]

And the 100 year old just saw Hills of California, that 2 hour, 45 minute play.

[B]

Wow. She's a marathon runner.

[A]

She is. They're trying to hide her from the world because she keeps ignoring the doctors and the doctors, like, we don't want the world to know that if you ignore our advice, you can still live to be 100. Point is so. Oh, somebody asked me a question. Oh, Doug, my. My aunt's husband asked me a question and I was chewing on something while he asked it, so I had to hold on for a second. And I'm chewing and chewing. And my aunt Karen, just as we're waiting, she's like, oh, he's choking. And then I swallow and I go. I only choke on command. And it got everyone good. It got everyone good. And I. And I didn't even make the connection until now. When I sat there, I was like, that's a juicy moment. That's Something juicy would do at the barbecue.

[B]

It is. It is to me, to make everyone. Because it's the. It's the elephant in the room.

[A]

Yeah. That he's gay.

[B]

There's it. I mean, it happens with. I just saw my family. It's always the elephant in the room. And for some. For whatever reason, because why does my sexuality have anything to do with, you know, anything that.

[A]

I think that's the thing. Is ultimately the thing that differentiates you from anyone is your sexuality. And. And to everyone else, that means fucking. It doesn't mean ship. It doesn't mean anything else other than just like. Well, that means that's what you do all the time, because it's the only difference. So you. It's all I can think of now.

[B]

I can't even get a date, so it's definitely not happening for me.

[A]

I am beating them away with my imaginary fan because I have imaginary suitors at my imaginary, imaginary door.

[B]

Oh, I love that. I love that. Are they, like Pride and Prejudice suitors?

[A]

You don't know what that means? You haven't seen a minute.

[B]

I have no idea. But am I even partly right?

[A]

I mean, in the sense that you put words together that.

[B]

All right.

[A]

No, you're not. You're not wrong, but you're not correct.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Do you know what I mean?

[B]

I get it.

[A]

Yeah. You're in the country.

[B]

Okay. It would work in an improv sketch. Maybe.

[A]

Actually, no. You're in the state, if not the county.

[B]

Oh, okay. Well, that's not far.

[A]

Exactly. You could drive.

[B]

Is it a big state? Is it like Montana? Or is it like. Or is it like.

[A]

Is it like Montana?

[B]

It's like Montana. Or is it like Delaware or like Rhode Island?

[A]

It's Maryland. It's wide, but she's thin.

[B]

We love Maryland.

[A]

Maryland. Yeah. But I think. Yeah, it's that. It's that, as you said, it's that elephant in the room of people. Your sexuality makes them uncomfortable because all they. When they think of sexuality, all they think of is sex.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And a. It's sex that they don't know. Thus, that makes them uncomfortable. And then also, you don't want to think about sex with your family. But that's also. It's a double standard because it happens. Yeah, it happens. And listen, when people in your family get married and then everybody's asking about, oh, when are you gonna have babies?

[B]

They're asking about fucking.

[A]

Yeah. My best friend, she finally had her kid. Finally. And for like a year and a half into her marriage, her dad and mom would keep on, like, making these joking comments about when are they gonna have kids. And Sarah was telling me about it over dinner one night. Like, oh, yeah, my dad was joking about. He'd be like, sending us a bassinet to be like, get the hint, Derek? And I said, no, Sarah, I hate that. Because that father telling your husband, fuck my daughter raw until you come in her so it can result in a grandkid. And she goes, well, I don't think he's thinking about that. I'm like, but that's what it is.

[B]

That's what it is. And if you boil it down, and.

[A]

What if I go into a room and just like, casually mention going on a date with a boy and everyone thinks about us fucking up the butt, then I'm sorry, I'm gonna say that till the cows come home. About how, you know, not just her parents, but any parent, when they talk about wanting grandkids and like, okay, yeah, just then just say, hey, child of mine who I raised from infancy to adulthood, please raw dog till it results in pregnancy, please get bread over and over again until it results in a goddamn skin nugget.

[B]

Until you get pregnant.

[A]

Until you get an overgrown Chia pet sucking on your body.

[B]

There's parasites.

[A]

They are. I call them a titty sucking parasite, which is another line in my play. But.

[B]

Oh, wait, did you. That's the one that I did.

[A]

You stole that from me. Jason filmed a scene from my play for a thing. And yes, he got to say that line.

[B]

I got to say it out loud. Yeah. I'm like, that sounds very familiar.

[A]

Yeah, you are gonna go and make a titty sucking parasite.

[B]

But you are correct in that they.

[A]

Are a titty sucking par. They get adorable for a while and then they start talking and then they stop being adorable.

[B]

That's the worst. When they start, like, talking. It's when they start talking back. Talking is fine. The da da da ga ga goo goo. Great.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But the. The don't talk to me that way. Oh, come on.

[A]

It's when they realize that their words have meaning and that they. And they can say certain things and will get a response.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that means they then think, oh, I'm smart now, and oh, I can. I can give it back now. No, no, we are not on the same level. I used to teach. I used to teach kids. I used to teach musical theater to kids between ages of 10 and 16. 16 year olds actually weren't too bad, but the 10 year olds were bad because they were on the brink of puberty. And so they had enough intelligence to know what SAS was, if not necessarily do it well. And it happened every year with every class. There would get to be a point where they would get so snarky to me, thinking that they were, like, undermining me in any way. And I would. Every year, I would turn around and I would go, I am sure that you are so smart for your age. I'm sure that you know how to read your classmates for filth. It's like, and maybe one day you will become smarter than me, but in this moment, I can tell you I am so much smarter than you. So do not bring rope to a knife fight.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I would never say gun, because I never wanted to bring that word into the classroom.

[B]

That's very considerate of you. I probably would have said gun.

[A]

Yeah, well, I would have said that. For the teenagers, I don't have much filter. I don't usually have filter, but for kids, it was more that, like, I wanted my points to come across, but I needed to not curse. And I knew not to be sexual. And I didn't want to have anything remotely violent. I wanted it to be a statement that had no ulterior motives. And it would be tricky sometimes because those children get on my goddamn nerves.

[B]

But kids ruin everything.

[A]

They really do.

[B]

They do.

[A]

They ruin symphonies. They ruin bodies.

[B]

Is there a symphony of children?

[A]

Yeah. Whenever they have to. Whenever they sing at the philharmonic. Child chorus. Anytime a child's on my stage, I'm like, get off my stage. Get the fuck off. I. And there's no children in Fathom, thank God.

[B]

But there are no children. Well, they're grown.

[A]

Yes. Well, yes.

[B]

They're 21.

[A]

Yeah. Everyone's just a large child in this show, really, when you think about it.

[B]

Well, I mean, isn't that what trauma does to you? It keeps.

[A]

Well, don't they? Teacher talks about what Juicy was like as a kid. Right. And how, like, he was cute, basically, until he started talking.

[B]

Facts are facts.

[A]

Yeah. And everyone always is talking about. Not only is he weird now, he was always weird. Then he actually speaking to what we were going on about when he and Opal were children. He. I guess the way he. He told Teedra whether Teedra and Rabbi are friends, and that made Opal and Juicy friends, or if Juicy and Opal met as kids, and that made Rabi and teacher friends, I think.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Because they talk about Juicy coming home from school at, like, the age of five or six and saying, I just met a girl. Her name is Opal. She's my girlfriend.

[B]

That's a very real thing though because parents, because they're probably like, oh, we should have a. You know, they probably use the word play date. Yeah, but. And then the parents are like, oh, we like each other too.

[A]

Yeah. I think that that's probably more likely what happened was that one rather than Teedra and, and Rappy being friends, making everyone else friends. Yeah, but, yeah, even. And, but they talk about how, oh, Juicy tried to take one of teachers earrings and turn into a wedding ring for Opal and all this stuff. And Rabbi talking about like, oh, he was such a player, a playboy as a kid. Such a player. At which Juicy's like, it's weird to talk about a six year old.

[B]

I love that line.

[A]

Yeah. Because it is, it is weird.

[B]

Another, Another like trauma. It's not really trauma, anything but like breaking a cycle thing. Like, why do parents do that? Same thing about you talking about your.

[A]

My best friend's father. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, it's the same thing.

[A]

Who are, by the way, are awesome people, but they just, they are guilty of what everyone's guilty of.

[B]

Yeah. And because their parents did it to them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you have. I hate it. Well, I, I didn't hate it then. I know what it was. It was very normal. But you come from school and they're like, oh, you have a girlfriend. Why do you ask me if I have a girlfriend if I'm. I'm four years old?

[A]

Yeah. What's so weird now is like, I. So for my life and my family, when I'm asked about dating, it's, it's rare. And when it is, it's more just like, like, do you have a companion? Do you have someone around? Like, that would be really nice for you. Which is very sweet.

[B]

It's very sweet. They want, they want to make sure you're not alone.

[A]

Yes. I, I hesitate to say that that's true of all straight couples that when parents are asking about them, are you dating? It's like, I don't want you to be alone. It's like, well, I want you to get married and have a baby.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Perpetuate my bloodline.

[B]

It's. Yep.

[A]

Avenge my existence. My DNA must continue because look at the prize that I am.

[B]

And there's always, it was always a thing that if you had a gay son or two gay children. I mean, look at. Rabi has two gay children.

[A]

She sure does. Oh, I want to talk about that scene.

[B]

Yeah. The two gay children. I remember someone saying that, like, there's no continuation after that, like, that's the end of the. Of that line. Which isn't true.

[A]

It's not true. That's why we have science, bitch.

[B]

That's why we have science. And. But also, some people don't want children. I mean, we're having a huge discussion about that in the country now.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Some people do not want children.

[A]

And a lot of people are also saying, if I'm going to have a child, I want to be able to take care of it. I don't want to have one.

[B]

And squalid because they grew up that way because, you know, they're. There are a lot of oops babies.

[A]

1,000%.

[B]

And those babies, it's. It's. It's a struggle.

[A]

I call them not on the itinerary. Baby. When people are like, oh, so you were a mistake, or like an accident. I'm like, first mistake. Let's not call that child a mistake until they grow up and we go, oh, you are a mistake.

[B]

You're a mistake.

[A]

Yeah, let's. Let's wait until they're formed and then we can decide if that. That was. If that ejaculation was a mistake.

[B]

That resentment. Ugh.

[A]

Yeah. Not on the itinerary.

[B]

Not on the itinerary. Like. Like Audra's baby.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Sally was not on the itinerary.

[A]

She sure wasn't, baby.

[B]

She was caused by tap dancing.

[A]

Tap dancing and perimenopause.

[B]

Perimenopause.

[A]

This is pre menopause.

[B]

Oh, there. Okay.

[A]

I think that's the medical term.

[B]

Is it the medical term?

[A]

I think so.

[B]

I don't know how to read, so I. I haven't read any medical books.

[A]

Is that why you haven't read Pride and Prejudice?

[B]

It makes a. It makes sense now, doesn't it?

[A]

Everything falls into place.

[B]

Yeah, everything falls right. If you talk to me long enough, it makes sense.

[A]

I'm surprised I've spoken to you this long. I usually run out the door the moment I hit the hour with anyone.

[B]

Most times they leave, they run to come out, they run out the door, and they come back with pitchforks and. And torches.

[A]

Any episode I have that lasts longer than an hour is because I literally have handcuffed the guest to the chair.

[B]

Well, I didn't. I haven't moved my wrist in three hours, so.

[A]

Well, that's because you had a very busy night last night.

[B]

Oh, my God. God. You know, I want to talk about last night. I still have a headache. Yeah, but imagine that podcast.

[A]

Imagine fat ham at the Eagle.

[B]

Listen, that production would sell Pop, pop.

[A]

Pop up Production at the. At the Eagle, baby. I would love that.

[B]

That that new room would make a great place for.

[A]

For what new room?

[B]

The new extension that. Well, it's not. It's not new anymore. When's the last time you were there?

[A]

10 years ago. Oh, for all of five minutes.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yeah, so actually, I went to a. I had a party, a birthday party at City Winery. And the after party was at the Eagle, around the corner. And they rented out this little. When you walk through the door and to the left, there used to be nothing, but they've turned into another bar, and it's like an event space now. That's where old Mary had their opening night.

[A]

Oh, I know. Oh, I know. Yeah, I know. And if I had been at Omari's opening night, I absolutely would have gone to the Eagle.

[B]

I thought he was joking when I saw that in his speech. That's so funny.

[A]

Cole has never been funny in their entire life.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Why would you think they were making a joke now? Why would you do that? Dumb. I want to get into the Larry Juicy scene, and Larry's as a character.

[B]

Okay. All right.

[A]

Before we do that, let us take another break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an Arrow caller. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet. And we're back. So we haven't really gone deep. Deep into many of these characters. We've talked about Juicy. We've talked about Teatra, sort of in general and Rev and all that. But I wanna. I think I want to kind of go a little deeper into Juicy through the microcosm of his scene with Larry. So Larry is Opal's brother.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And he's back from military.

[B]

Military, yeah. Yes. And he's like, kelly, buddy, do we get a sense of what he was doing?

[A]

He. He was gone for, like, three years, right? Something like that. And, I mean, he shows up in uniform.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which he doesn't have to.

[B]

Didn't have to do it.

[A]

He did it because he wanted Juicy to see it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was kind of sweet.

[A]

It's very sweet.

[B]

We know these. We know these people.

[A]

The mo. I remember seeing it the moment Larry said, I wanted you to see me in the uniform. Uniform. I was like, oh, they're gonna kiss later.

[B]

We know these people. Yeah.

[A]

Yes, yes. And then he tries to deflect be like, well, because I want you to See it because, like, it looks cool. Right. I look cool. But yeah, like, Juicy really kind of has a moment alone with Larry to not even like to hit on him or anything or have anything romantic. Just like, he wants to talk about the idea of killing because as far as he knows, Larry is the only.

[B]

Person who has killed anyone. Knows how.

[A]

Yes. And I think it's implied that Larry has. When he was away. He did kill somebody.

[B]

He mentions it.

[A]

Yes. Because he's not unlike Opal, who Juicy also has a conversation about that with. And Opal's like, who you want to kill. Let me help.

[B]

I love Opal.

[A]

Yeah. Like, Opal is tough. Opal is hard. Opal has all of this energy and this anger.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That she. I guess you could say she channels into that kind of.

[B]

Like, I. I also think it's because she's coming into herself. I think she. I think she's newly come to this realization and.

[A]

And I think she's just sort of in a rebellious state in general. Yeah.

[B]

And she's up that age.

[A]

Yeah. And talks about how she wants, like, own a shooting range and. Right. Doesn't she talk about how she wants to own a shooting range?

[B]

I don't remember that.

[A]

I could have sworn she. There was a moment where she said that. But you know, Opal's very like, yeah, kill. But you're. You should. Like, you won't do it. You're too soft. But, like, I would totally help you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then Larry, who most likely has killed somebody, is like, why would you want to do that? Don't ever do that.

[B]

Yeah. Because it ruins you.

[A]

Yeah. And is the first one to talk about Juicy softness in a positive way and how he wishes that he could be soft. And I get very Joe Pitt vibes from Larry as someone who has this Angels in America.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Which I have to do that episode at some point if I can find a guest who's brave enough to cover any of it.

[B]

So long. Are you going to do both plays?

[A]

Yeah. It's going to be two parter.

[B]

Ooh. Jesus Christ.

[A]

Oh, yeah. If everyone thought that Miss Saigon was a long episode, baby. Five hour long. Each part.

[B]

Oh, my goodness.

[A]

But like, so I'm sure you've had experiences with repressed, semi closeted gay men.

[B]

I can't even count how many. Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

I have. You do not have enough appendages.

[B]

I don't have 5,001 body parts. Yeah.

[A]

More than that. But it's like, it. I. I also have had my experiences both, like, fleeting and much More intimate and like. And humane and friendly and. And just like, seeing it on a more. On a more intimate level.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I think it's easy to sort of just disregard and call people closet cases and pull a Juicy of like, just say, like, do it. Be like, do the thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But there's a lot to be said for someone who grew up a certain way being told of a certain way to live.

[B]

And also being military.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So that. Not just upbringing, but then training and. And being in a culture that does not prioritize softness and queerness, and then going into a line of work that prioritizes being hard and probably is degrading to queerness.

[B]

It also doesn't promote individuality. So that's.

[A]

That's also true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And. But also just this. This part of you that you have had for so long. Because he says to Juicy that even when they were kids and they would, like, go pee behind the house, they would have these, like, charged moments together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where they didn't know really what it was, but there was something about the closeness with each other and also being just physically open in that moment that it wasn't sexual because they were too young for it to be sexual. But there was a. There was a charge.

[B]

There was a magnetism.

[A]

Exactly. And I think as. We don't know when Juicy came out, we don't know when Larry realized, but at some point, Juicy did come out, and Larry did realize what was going on with him and probably always looked at Juicy with admiration and envy of.

[B]

He's able to be free.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And at what point do you allow yourself to be free when you keep perpetuating a certain narrative about yourself?

[B]

But it was. I. I think that's something that's. That Larry is comfortable in because his. I think his mother didn't allow him to be individual. And I think going into the army was. It was like running into. From, you know, from one bad situation to another. Well, not bad, but familiar situation to another.

[A]

Yeah. I think a structured situation to another structured situation.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because Rabi loves her kids.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Her biggest crime is she wants them to fit into the mold that makes sense to her.

[B]

Well, she tells. She's like, I. She laid out what she wanted for her children. She wanted Opal to do what she wanted to do.

[A]

I can't remember. Everyone wants. Opal's going to human resources, which is hilarious, because that is exactly what Juicy is going to school for. And I also love the running joke that Juicy. So Juicy's in school, Phoenix. Yeah. He's online at the University of Phoenix. And everybody's always making jokes about how University of Phoenix is a scam. College in general is a scam. You're not even going, like, to. In person classes. You're online. And one of my favorite lines, it's. I. I can't pull it up on. On the. On in the script right here, because I would need to find the exact moment. But it's. It's not even the setup there. It's. It's Rabbi, Juicy, Opal, and I think Larry as well, and they're all sort of fighting about whatever, and Rabbi's, like, just so confused by her kids. And I think it's. Opal says something about, like, you know, be more like Juicy or whatever. And Rabi goes, juicy goes to school on his phone.

[B]

On cell phone. Yeah. Juicy goes a desktop.

[A]

Yeah, Juicy goes a desktop, which is one of my favorite rabbulites. Jesse goes to school on his cell phone.

[B]

Doesn't his dead dad make a comment about.

[A]

They all make comments about it. I don't. I'm not sure. No, Pap. I think Pat makes comments because Juicy is using big words at some point in one of his confrontations.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And he's like, oh, you think you're better than me because you're going to school? He's like, you're not even going to school. You're going to fucking online school.

[B]

What a slam for a ghost to read you like that. I live for it.

[A]

Yeah. You think you're better than me because you clicked a button. He's like, bitch, you're not in school. You're in a chat room. Well, like, and, but. And yet it's the resources that Juicy has to better himself, which is nothing to scoff at. It's more that Juicy's annoying about it.

[B]

Yes. And he thinks he's better than.

[A]

Yes. It's like, it's. It's one of those wonderful catch 22s. And what makes, I think, Fat Ham a wonderful play is that everybody is a little bit of something. Juicy can be morally in the right about a lot of things and still be a. Yeah. You know, Rev can be a douchebag who also, like, is ultimately trying to keep the party and vibe light and really is more sort of a I will only bite if you come at me.

[B]

Yeah. And he bites and he bites.

[A]

And we need to see that because we see that, like, he is not a sweet and loving person. General. Generally speaking. He has. He has an anger and he has a violence within him. And you see it when he gets provoked. So obviously it's not serial killer esque, but it is that mask coming off. He does actively try to keep things on the up and up. It's when you poke the bear. And Teedra has a lot of bathmat issues, literally because they just redid their bathroom. But she's a bit of a bath mat or a doormat one might say. But she is a self aware doormat. She's very aware of who she is and what her situation is and she chooses it.

[B]

It feels like she, she is a. She grew up. Well, she grew up in a busy house. Yeah.

[A]

Loud, Loud house. Loud house. Yes. I know what that's like, but I sure do. Yeah. It's. It's actually speaking of the Lachiusi musical today.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

This was. It's an argument as old as time in terms of feminism. Right. Of feminism is about choice. And you don't get to shame a woman for choosing something that maybe is not going into business. Business like getting married, being a stay at home mom. Like that is what autonomy is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that that is what makes Teedra a fascinating character is that she has autonomy. She's using it to be a domestic, not even partner, like semi servant. Yeah.

[B]

She helps with the restaurant.

[A]

She helps. I don't think she helps at the restaurant, does she? She's, she's, she's aware of everything that happens.

[B]

Well, because doesn't she bring up the fact that the chain wants to buy it?

[A]

Yes. Well, I think since Pap died she probably has his share in the rest.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But as far as I can tell in the script she doesn't have a job there. I think it's just one of those things where like it's a family owned establishment. So like she's in and out. She knows the employees, she, she's told of the goings on, she knows all the business stuff. But I don't think she's like, like involved. Yeah. She's not the accountant, she's not a manager. She's not even a hostess.

[B]

And I mean maybe that's how she was told to be.

[A]

Yeah. I mean think about this way. Like, did Juicy have a job at the restaurant? I don't think so.

[B]

I highly doubt he would want to.

[A]

Yeah, well they probably didn't want him there. He didn't want to be there. And thus did you see ever have a job? Did you see just go to high school and now does online college.

[B]

Did they. They don't butcher the pigs near the. In in that they only Rev butchers pigs.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's not part of the restaurant at all.

[A]

That is. That is sort of. The implication is that Pap was in charge of the cooking and Rev was in charge of the butchering. Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Make sure that the meat was good.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And when Pap went off to prison, Rev took over. And it is implied that business slowed down once Rev took over.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Although he claims it's not because of the quality of the food, it's because people knew Pap and they didn't know him as well.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Yes. But yes, Teeter does mention the chain that wants to buy the restaurant, which would be nice because they spent all of Juicy's college.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[A]

To redo their bathroom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And a wedding to which teacher apologizes and then says, but honey, college is a scam. Anyway. You're better off. Juicy goes to school on his cell phone. God. Rabbi might be the secret weapon of this play.

[B]

Robbie. Robbie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. She has a lot of zingers.

[A]

Yeah. But so with. So Larry and Larry. Yeah. That scene. What. What are your feelings on that scene?

[B]

I feel like I've had that. Those moments. It was very real. I loved when he asked him to touch. Just to touch his leg.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just to have some sort of. It oddly reminded me, even though it's a different subject matter. Moonlight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When he. When he says, you're the only person who. What was that last line that he says from Moonlight? Yeah.

[A]

I only saw the ones.

[B]

Yeah. Anyway, there's that long line. The line says about touch. I can talk. The line he says about touch reminded me of that in some way. But it's. It was nice to see him kind of be human for a moment. I feel like Larry. That's something that's very anathema to his. How he was raised and how he operates in. In life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To. To ask to touch. To be intimate. Do you think that Larry had any relationship. Any good relations with girls?

[A]

Define good. Like sexually successful.

[B]

Sexually.

[A]

Sexually successful. Sexually fulfilling. No.

[B]

Intimate. Intimate wise. Maybe not. He probably has. I reckon he's not even been in a relationship before.

[A]

Probably not. The actor who did it on Broadway played him very stoic, not cold, but just very reserved. The whole awkward. And has a secret. Very much was at the forefront of his performance.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And you could buy that he was somebody who didn't have a relationship because he was just going through so much turmoil underneath the surface.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And just couldn't. I'm sure when he was in the military, guys tried to Set him up all the time, and it failed.

[B]

Yeah, it's. And we always think that men turn to other men in the military anyway, so that's actually an interesting.

[A]

Yeah, there's a whole bunch of stories about that. It's. I feel like with Larry, it's the. He can't bring himself to fully admit who he is, but he also can't bring himself to fully commit to the costume. You know what I mean?

[B]

Wow. But he's never been given the opportunity and costume.

[A]

I think he has.

[B]

Well, I think it's more that he. I think when you. When you. When you tell people who they need to be for so long, they lose who they could be.

[A]

And. And I think he also projects at how everyone's gonna react, because the truth is that the reaction isn't bad when eventually it isn't bad.

[B]

But. But he. It isn't bad. I love that. That. That was Opal that says that he. He. That he should say it.

[A]

No, it's what it. What it is is that he and Juicy have their thing, and they almost kiss.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then he runs inside, and that is when Juicy does what it's very worth.

[B]

Everyone's around, and people. They could be caught.

[A]

Yeah, they could be caught any moment. And almost goes for it, and then ultimately runs into the house. And I did watch this clip from the Wilma broadcast, the one from 2021, and it's a very honest, intimate. What a piece of work is man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they film it like a movie, but on Broadway. Marcel speaks. Marcel Spears literally shouts, what? And everybody laughs. And he takes out the microphone that he's been holding on to since the karaoke scene and goes, what a piece of work is man. Oh, no. What a piece. What a story. What a. What a piece of work is. Well, or. So. What piece of work is a man, I think is.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

Because it's. It's. What a piece of work is man is the quote from Hamlet, But I believe they altered and found him too. What. What piece of work is a man?

[B]

That's funny. Yeah, it's so brilliant.

[A]

So good. I'm trying. I'm. I'm also just trying to find. Oh, yeah, sorry. Okay, I'm gonna need you to read Rabi's line here down to the. To the punchline that we have.

[B]

Okay. Ravi, why can't you be more like Larry? Opal? Because I ain't Larry. I don't want to be like Larry. I don't want to be. I don't want to be like you. I don't want to be like Teo. I don't want to be like Juicy. Rabbi Juicy go to school on his cell phone. Juicy. It's a desktop.

[A]

Juicy go to school on his cell phone. It's even better than me. It's such a good life.

[B]

Listen, I love it, especially for it's hell. I wonder how much funnier it was during pandemic because of where we were.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Everyone was doing everything on their fucking cell phone.

[A]

Yeah. That's what makes that a great line, is that it fits in any context.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Like, it's, it's the, it's the minimal. The minimalizing. That's not the right word, but whatever. Minimizing. Minimizing, sure. The minimizing of the effort of going to school, of the constant degrading of it. But then also, yeah, like, when you're doing lockdown, homeschooling, it's like, yeah, I'm. I'm going to school my goddamn. I.

[B]

Which some students did.

[A]

Yeah. Juicy go to school on a cell phone.

[B]

No, but I, I, I, I think that the character of Larry is so. Well, I mean, James is a gay man. He. I know he's also had this experience. These experiences. But we all have had experiences with, with. I just had one a few weeks ago.

[A]

I talked to someone with a troubled man who.

[B]

He was not out. Okay, but, but totally living, you know, that double.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Life or afraid to be out.

[A]

Was this on the grind?

[B]

It was on the grind.

[A]

That's where they tend to be.

[B]

Yeah, but he was very open about it, and I was like, dude, actually.

[A]

I'll tell this story. Then two weeks ago, for the last couple weeks, I should say, there's a gentleman at my gym who had been aggressively checking me out on the gym floor. Like, I am somebody where I do not say check out unless it is so obvious.

[B]

Like, I see your eyeballs, like, focused on me.

[A]

Exactly. Because I, I'm terrible at knowing if someone's flirting with me, if someone's into me. Like, you have to be. Hey, you.

[B]

Yes, let's do this.

[A]

Exactly. And so this guy, for about two weeks, very much so. Like, always sizing me up. I think we talked once or twice in passing in the locker room, and then last week, he ended up coming up to me and in the locker room as I was changing and just talking about whatever, and it was very clearly like, I want you to know that I'm human being and that I'm not a serial killer kind of way. So, like, I can, we can go out and hook up.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That kind of thing. That's a move that a lot of people do of like we. We pass by each other a lot. And now I want you to see me as a. As a human and not a threat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that way we can go to bed.

[B]

£Disarming you.

[A]

Exactly. And as I'm just about done getting dressed, he was like, oh, do you want to walk out together? Said, sure. As we're walking. Oh, Turns out we live close to each other. And he's like, oh, I should out totally come by one night for a drink and maybe some fun. And I said, well, you know, I live at my mom's and I don't know if that's totally appropriate. I'm allowed to have boys over if we're dating.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not if it's a. A one night hookup.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which I think is totally fair.

[B]

That's absolutely fair.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the revolving door in New York City is fast.

[A]

Especially when you look like I do, you know.

[B]

Wrecked. Correct. You look great. I like the glasses. Right now you're giving me like a little Rachel Maddow vibe.

[A]

Do you want to say a different person?

[B]

Oh, we don't like Rachel Maddow.

[A]

I look like a lesbian. I look like a power lesbian.

[B]

That's a masculine thing, isn't it?

[A]

Maybe I take it personally because my mom's hot for her. Well, you used to be hot for her.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

She said to me the other day, she's getting old, so I'm not into her as much.

[B]

That makes sense. That makes sense.

[A]

Yeah. My mom is a misogynist at heart, but so these glasses, by the way, they're blue lenses which I wear when I am editing on my computer all day long so my eyes don't go insane. But also, I got three hours of sleep last night, so my eyes were super irritated. And I wasn't going to sit through a three hour Lucuzi musical rubbing my eyeballs, so. Exactly. The irony is that, like, my. The person I was closest to in that show didn't recognize me when we were. He never seen me with my glasses on.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Is it from out all year? Yeah, he texted me. He was like, I had to run, like, I couldn't find you. I was like, I was wearing glasses.

[B]

It's your Superman.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You work and you have the little. It's out now.

[A]

He also texted me about Clark Kent. I was like, you and I both know I'm not Clark Ken. But. But. So the guy from the gym. I said, I'm at My mom's. I don't think I can do this. And I said to him, like, well, you know, you live apparently, like, a block away. You own your apartment. Like, we can always have a drink at your place some night. And he takes a beating and he goes, well, I don't think my wife would like that.

[B]

Wow. Wow.

[A]

Like, openly wow. What did you think?

[B]

What do you think was gonna happen?

[A]

Yeah. How do you think I was gonna react? Yeah.

[B]

And how's it think? How do you think it makes me feel?

[A]

And I. I already asked you about your experiences. I'll say, like, I've had experiences as well. I always get blindsided. I never know that they're, quote, unquote, straight or currently with a woman until later. Only once did it get deep in that respect. But that. For more on that, you have to watch my play, but.

[B]

Oh, we love that.

[A]

Yeah. Well, it's great drama. It was a great story. But I. At the time when that happened, I was like, I can't believe this happened to me. And later on, a friend of mine and I were thinking about, like, certain experiences I had had. I was like, oh, now that I think about it, I've actually had quite a few men come on to me at the gym, where after we hook up, like, they vanish. Well, they don't know. They don't vanish. They say, I am with a woman, I have a wife. Or like, I identify as straight. And I'm like, you didn't 10 minutes ago.

[B]

It's the height. Because some people have that relationship where it's. It's. They can have dalliances.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is fine. But the ones who aren't allowed to are. So. Are too good at having these affairs.

[A]

I think that's sort of the thing is it always finds. It always finds a way. Right.

[B]

Life finds a way.

[A]

Yes. The. The rub always finds a way of rubbing the ham finds a way to be fat no matter what you try and do. And I think ultimately that is sort of where the breaking point we're at with Larry in the play of. You can hide, you can repress. Like, it always bubbles to the surface at some point. Same thing with trying to take your toxicity and your. Your emotions and just boil it and bubble it all the way down. Like, it will get at you one way or another. Maybe you don't act on your rage or your sadness or your impulses, and it physically takes a toll on you. Or you've tried to find a way to hide it and cheat in some ways, but it always comes Through. There's always a way where you get caught or you can't handle what you're doing anymore. And you have to admit, you have to confess. I think the tragedy of Larry in the play, or at least in the brief. The brief pockets of tragedy that this play has.

[B]

Yeah. Shoots through.

[A]

Yes. Is that in a moment of vulnerability and security with Juicy, of thinking it was a safe space when everyone else comes back out again and it's Ravi and Opal and Larry and Juicy. Juicy fighting against Rabbi because Rabi's sort of coming at Juicy for being soft and weird and. And basically says like, well, before you.

[B]

Come for me, come for your own son.

[A]

Yeah. Look in your. Look in your.

[B]

He's gay too.

[A]

Yeah. He's like, look at your front yard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's very. Don't come for me unless I twirl for you. Whatever. But yeah. And. And. And pretty much outs Larry and has. And not. No.

[B]

Full. Blatantly out.

[A]

Well, he doesn't say the full words, but what he does is that he get. He says enough that Larry then has to say.

[B]

He let the genie on the bottle.

[A]

And he forces Larry like he's. Shouts at Larry, like, say it. You'll feel so much better.

[B]

So cruel.

[A]

It's so cruel. And when Larry. And Larry doesn't fully say the words, but he says enough that his mom understands.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She. Considering she's a God loving, very, very religious. Very religious woman of the community that they're in, takes it pretty well at. For, you know, for a first reaction considering her.

[B]

Because then we. Then we find her history.

[A]

Yes. Well, and that's because of another straw that breaks the camel's back, which is. Which is Opal with terrible timing, but it's Larry having his moment. And then slams Juicy's head on the table.

[B]

Man.

[A]

And says, you talk about how everyone's so. Does all these things to you, but you can be cruel. That was not yours to share. You robbed me of my.

[B]

Of my moment.

[A]

Yeah. Of when I was ready to do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was. I. And Larry was gonna be ready, which was very real. Absolutely. He was on the brink of it. And that is. It's very real and it's very true. Juicy. And then, of course, that sadness turns to laughter because then Opal just shouts, mama, I like girls. Ravi's like. Ravi just goes, lord Jesus. And then takes a beat and says another one of paper ladies. She goes, okay, so I guess this is what we're doing today. Truth time. Here we go. And then says her truth about her stripping, which then leads to the Tio monologue. And we will talk about the to monologue.

[B]

The to monologue is so good.

[A]

We're gonna talk about that after this break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet. Jason.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

So Tio has a monologue.

[B]

I forgot about this monologue.

[A]

So did I.

[B]

And I said, why have. Why am I not doing this monologue?

[A]

Why are we not all doing this monologue?

[B]

It's so. It's.

[A]

You know, it's wild.

[B]

Some person out there running for president right now talks about a weave. This monologue is a weave. But it's fucking brilliant.

[A]

Yeah, it is absolutely. Skating through the patches and finding a destination. So Tio, who has not been on stage for the majority of this play, he left early and then came back to get.

[B]

He went and got something, didn't he?

[A]

I remember if he went to get something when he came back with new shoes, because. Who's the skeleton in Hamlet?

[B]

Urik.

[A]

Yurik.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

He's like, yeah, you know our friend Yurik. The guy was so much older than us. It's cool. Yeah. He's dead now. His mom's selling his shit. Here are his shoes. It's great. It's so fun.

[B]

So good.

[A]

Yeah, but so all this stuff is happening around that him, all the announcements and whatnot and then becomes like, anybody else has something to share? And Tio just go. Is like, yeah, I got something to share. He's like, I don't know, who needs to hear this, but I have an epiphany and just goes on this. How would you describe it? Diatribe.

[B]

It's the wildest analogy. Is he. He talks about fucking a frog.

[A]

No, gingerbread man.

[B]

A gingerbread man. That's what it is. Gingerbread man. And the arms and coming and the frost and all this stuff. It's.

[A]

It never goes where you expect it to go. Because first it starts off with. He's talking about how he plays this video game where you. Where you blow off the arms of gingerbread men who also are like trying to attack you. Because it's a. It's a violent video game.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And he does it while he gets high. And one day he gets so high that all sudden he's noticing that the gingerbread man is staring at him and comes up to him, touches him with his broken off arm and he's super high and super high, and he's not sure, like, how much of this is the weed, how much of this is his own subconscious. Because what. Ultimately, what's the first step to intimacy is the gingerbread man basically, is like, you look sad and troubled. Why is that? And Tio's like. And I can't give an answer, which makes me even sadder. Like, I just am sad, which is inherited trauma. But also, I also saw this meme about how when there's a death in the world that nobody's mourning, the sadness carries over to one random stranger in the world, which is why, like, sometimes you have a full day of melancholy and you don't know why, is that you are secretly mourning the death of someone who isn't being mourned.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

I mean, listen. Most likely total bullshit. But also, I. No, I.

[B]

No, I believe that because that's just energy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because there are days where I'm like. I don't know why I'm feeling this way today.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I believe that.

[A]

I've had many of them.

[B]

I believe it.

[A]

I think. I think a lot of sad, lost souls come to me to be mourned because they know that I will feel sad for them all day long.

[B]

Oh, you're an empath. Like, Juicy.

[A]

Like Juicy. Yes, Juicy is an empath. He says as much. He shouts as much.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, so he's talking about the gingerbread man, and he says, like, all sudden, I realized the gingerbread man is looking at me asking why I'm sad. I don't know why. He goes. It's like. And then he kisses me, and you're like, gingerbread man. I like gingerbread ladies. He's like, But I'm not gonna lie. It feels kind of good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I let it happen. It's like. And then he moves south, and I'm like, gingerbread man. I like fellatio. I like gingerbread lady fellatio. It's like. But again, it feels good. I think he says it's. It feels like rubbing up in a warm batter. A warm batter of cookie dough.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

He's like. And then it feels so good. You. You splash frosting all over his gingerbread man face. And then you start having this epiphany of what the world could be and how there could be this idealistic utopia where everything is equal and everything is balanced and everyone is open. He goes. Which is an amazing realism to have five seconds after you come. Yeah.

[B]

But actually, that is what happens when you come.

[A]

Everything gets very Clear all of a sudden.

[B]

I mean, the come. Clarity is real.

[A]

There is a joke about that. And don't trust the bitch in apartment 23. It's one of my favorite jokes they have where she's like, I always do my. She's like, I always have my best epiphanies after sex. And they show a montage of her throwing the guy off of her after she's climaxed. So, like, she. Like, she. She has sex, throws the guy off of her. She goes, I left my lunch. It's like she goes, oh, lost was purgatory. Aioli is just mayonnaise.

[B]

I never watched that show. That's very funny.

[A]

Oh, so good. It's on Netflix. I left my Burberry coat in the luggage room at the Gansevo. It really clears my head. It makes everything make sense. Much like Elise in First Wise Club and Exercise. But he's talking about this. This epiphany and this clarity, and he's like. And I know that in my perfect world, they're gonna be a lot more gingerbread man blowjobs.

[B]

And.

[A]

And we laugh because it's all random and silly. But he basically says, what if you chose pleasure over violence?

[B]

I wrote that down. I wrote that quote down, save for.

[A]

The kids in the back.

[B]

The actual quote, I think I. It's towards the end, right?

[A]

Yeah, it's definitely third act.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Choosing. Choosing pleasure over harm. Why waste life being miserable? To make someone happy. What a great line.

[A]

What a wonderful line. And that applies in so many different ways. It's not just. Again, not literal violence. Sometimes it's making yourself small so someone else can feel big. Sometimes it's carrying someone else's pain so they can feel remembered. Because they asked. Juicy's always asked, like, why are you mourning your dad? He was a shit to you? And he's like, I don't know. I just feel like I have to.

[B]

Obligation.

[A]

Obligation. And ultimately, it all culminates in the end. So we have. First of all, we have our game of charades, which is a reference to Hamlet. When they do the play. Speak the speech.

[B]

And he does the monologue.

[A]

He does the monologue and he does the charades of the cook killed the. Sorry, the preacher killed the cook. Yes, because it's. The whole bunch of charades is. You know, it's. It's books, movies, tv, whatever. And they do a movie. They do do the right thing. And then Juicy goes up and goes, book. And Ravi just shouts, who put a book in there? I thought this was movies and celebrities.

[B]

I. I'm just thinking about this now. It's kind of bold for them to not in that scene to not have Teidra say the lady death protest to mind.

[A]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[B]

To find a way to say that it's a little bold.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's such an iconic line for that scene.

[A]

It does. It's such an amazing line. Yeah. But they. I think they don't have it because they don't need it.

[B]

They don't need it. They don't need it. But it's interesting that they didn't try and. And put it in there somewhere.

[A]

Yeah. But I think ultimately all of every. Yeah, I think every line teacher has and for most of the play is just the lady doth protest too much. Everything she says is just that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's her always on the defense and. And making excuses for why she's in the way she is. And even her karaoke performance is like an over performing.

[B]

Oh my goodness.

[A]

It's an over performative way of like, we're so in love. We're so hot for each other. Everything's great.

[B]

And we all know that woman.

[A]

We all know that.

[B]

Yeah, we all know the person well. Yeah, that person well.

[A]

We all know the couple that has to prove to everyone that they're better.

[B]

Than ever on their. On their socials, on their everything. Always talking about the. Their man. It's always a red flag.

[A]

This is. And this is their wedding day. They just got married. And she is doing a karaoke number where she is basically opening up her vagina lips to him in front of everyone, grinding on his lap. They are on the brink of To.

[B]

Anita Hill is Anita. No, Anita Hill is not that singer.

[A]

No.

[B]

Anita something freak. I'll be a freak. Until the day, until the dawn.

[A]

It's. It's something with love.

[B]

Anita. It's. I remember when the song came out.

[A]

I'll find it. I'll find it.

[B]

Anita something.

[A]

It's. Sorry, I'm still looking. No, I need a name.

[B]

Anita.

[A]

God damn it. Do the one like. Okay, so that's creep. She. Teedra is singing Crystal Waters is 100 pure love.

[B]

Oh, that's what she's singing in the Wilmore production. They do freak.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Freak like me.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Oh, forgot. Yes, you're right. You're right.

[A]

On Broadway and in the script.

[B]

I remember. I remember that now. I live for that.

[A]

But. But the idea of it's. It's their wedding day and they're. Everyone's there to celebrate their love. They are. Everyone is there signing the agreement of we all believe you two are happy. You don't have to do anything more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if that is how you are on that day, like. Sorry. There is something rotten at the core. Something rotten in the state of Denmark, one might say.

[B]

Yes. Very well played.

[A]

Thank you so much, Pride and Prejudice, but no idea. No, no. Couldn't tell you or.

[B]

Couldn't tell you a thing.

[A]

Couldn't tell you something about bitches and marriage. That's all I know.

[B]

That's all I know. I should. You know which one I should read? I should read the one with the. The zombies.

[A]

Pride and Prejudice and Zombies. No, you don't. Don't read it.

[B]

It's for me.

[A]

Just watch the Keira Knightley, Pride and Prejudice. You'll be fine.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You'll be so fine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. You'll be golden, pony boy.

[B]

I'm scared.

[A]

Don't be scared. Karen Knightley is a Dom top. She'll guide you nicely.

[B]

We do love a dom top.

[A]

She's not a dom top. She's a gentle top.

[B]

A soft top.

[A]

A soft.

[B]

As one would say, she's a blouse. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

She's a feminine top.

[B]

God bless the soft tops in this world.

[A]

Yes. We need more Keira Knightleys in this world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To guide us through the butt sex.

[B]

Because people are just ripping colons out of people's ass.

[A]

Yeah. You don't want a Rosamund pike who's just gonna go in without prepping you. You need a Keira Knightley who understands foreplay.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, Jesus. Everyone, we have classes on foreplay. We really do.

[A]

Yeah. We need to write a whole TV show.

[B]

It's just about foreplay because the body just doesn't. Just doesn't. Not everyone's a power bottom.

[A]

Yeah. Not. Well. And even the power bottoms, they spend, like, all this time away from you, preparing themselves.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They do all that. They do. That works for you.

[B]

You don't have any forethought to have any foreplay.

[A]

Some people don't have the time, or at least they don't have the time in the moment, so they make little time during the day, which is. I guess that's the equivalent of intermittent fasting or.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Or. Or how the French do, like, little meals throughout the day.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Bottoms do. Little bits of poppers and a little bit of butt plugs throughout the day. Yes. But no, I think. I think all of that is definitely a bit of Gertrude's Lady Doth Protest too much. Of just all of. Like, you're being a little too into your Man.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting to have her display it instead of say it. I love it. Yeah.

[A]

Well, ultimately, what it should always be is show, don't tell. Right.

[B]

Always.

[A]

Which is the number one criticism people lob at the play. Hamlet is like, it's so many. So many soliloquies and not enough action. I think it. It's a. It's a criticism. I understand with a great production of Hamlet, it doesn't matter, but when it's a mediocre to bad production, like, my God, do you feel the soliloquies? Right.

[B]

Because that's a later Shakespeare.

[A]

Right? Yeah. It's definitely one of his longest plays, but he always intended his plays to be done at two hours.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. And I think Hamlet might at the time have been like 2:30.

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

But yeah, it's like it shouldn't be. You should never have a four hour Hamlet.

[B]

There's all those intermittent scenes you can cut.

[A]

Oh, when I was in college and we had language at the stage and we each had to pitch a Shakespeare production, I did pitch Hamlet and I said I would make certain cuts. And I did cut the speak the speech I pray you monologue. And I just made the play that the actors do for the court, a mimed play. So there's no dialogue, just.

[B]

Yeah, it keeps. It keeps moving. Yeah, get the general idea and move.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. You know, it's. The whole thing is like a scary little nightmare.

[B]

But I love nightmares.

[A]

Don't we? We love one on Elm street, baby.

[B]

You know? Oh, First Night Heart.

[A]

The first Nightmare on Elm street is masterpiece.

[B]

It's the blood.

[A]

It's the.

[B]

It's the Johnny Depp death. For me, it's. It really warms the cockles of my heart.

[A]

I mean, Tina's death is like. Like one of the greatest pieces of cinema I've ever seen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're going up that wall and up to the ceiling. Jesus Lord.

[B]

So good.

[A]

Props to Heather Langenkamp. One of the best final girls ever.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

As Nancy. She's so good.

[B]

Is she your favorite final girl?

[A]

No, Cindy Prescott's my favorite final girl. Oh, you better believe.

[B]

I think mine is Sigourney Weaver.

[A]

Great one. She's a great one. You can't go wrong with any, like, the top five.

[B]

No.

[A]

Because I would say it's Sidney, it's Nancy, it's Laurie, it's.

[B]

What's.

[A]

What's Sigourney's character's name in Alien?

[B]

Ripley.

[A]

Ripley, Yeah. I would say those are like the four final girls. Is There a fifth that I'm not thinking of because there's never a recurring one in Friday the 13th.

[B]

You said. You said.

[A]

You said Nancy from Nightmare on Elm Street 1 and 3 and. And 7. Whichever one knew Nightmare is Sidney Prescott from Scream, Laurie from Halloween, and then Ripley from Alien.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't think of anything else. I'm sure there's one more.

[A]

I'm sure there's one we're not thinking of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To be determined. Okay, so let's get into the ending of this, then.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because we talked about Valeria, but all the ending of the play, Rev finally confesses after. After. After the charades of the creature Kill the cook. Finally Rev comes back out and denies it, sort of admits it, then kind of fully admits it. But before, this is what.

[B]

Sorry, what if I did? What are you gonna do about it?

[A]

Yep. And then the first thing Rev does is take a giant bite of pork and starts to choke. And no one but Juicy knows the Heimlich maneuver.

[B]

It's a fat ham. I love this moment that.

[A]

That Rev won't let Juicy do the Heimlich on him because. And at first you think it's because of pride, of, like, I. Like, he's been rude to me. I won't. Like, I won't accept his help. But no, it's homophobia, toxic masculinity. They say, why won't you. Like, no one can help Rev. Tedra's banging on his back, breaking it like no one else do.

[B]

Doesn't get. Take a. Well, in the Wimbledon, she takes like, a chair and such, like. Yeah.

[A]

And then they're like, why won't you let Juicy help you? To which Rev goes.

[B]

He. Well, he. He. He puts his hand out and he does the fay.

[A]

Yeah. Well, so in the.

[B]

I think what you say in the script.

[A]

In the script. So in the alliance production, he shouts he's gay. But like. But like, through choked mouth. Oh, Billy Eugene Jones, I remember, also did something like that. He did like, the handout and then broke down the wrist to be like Limp Risk. He's guy. I love that the script doesn't give him dialogue. It just gives him stage directions that says he has to do something that implies it's because it. Sorry.

[B]

We love. I love. It's because playwrights give freedom.

[A]

Yes. And. And the. The line that is meant to be conveyed is because that n. Word's gay.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And then he. But then he dies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And nobody really mourns.

[B]

Well, if it's the pseudo, it feels like the pseudo.

[A]

Like.

[B]

You know, like when the giant is. When the. When the giant kills NARRATOR in Into the Woods.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It feels like that. It feels like, oh, well, what do we. What do we do we do now? Well, he's dead. We can't. We can't really mourn. But like, so, like. But like, what happens? What happens is play.

[A]

Yeah. And what does that mean for Juicy, who didn't end up killing him, but he does die anyway. And in fact, like, Juicy, in that moment of panic, did offer to save. And ultimately it was the pride and hatred of the man that killed him, not Juicy.

[B]

Yeah. Which is real.

[A]

Very real. Again, what we were saying earlier, you don't let that shit out. It will get you.

[B]

It will get you.

[A]

It will get you in the end.

[B]

The cycle of trauma will kill you.

[A]

The fat ham will rub in the end. And they. Everyone kind of has a moment of clarity of Rev's death, of Teacher seeing that he is. He seems much calmer now. Maybe wasn't the sweetheart that she projected him to be in life and finds a very quick way of sort of snapping out of her protest. Too much doldrums. And there's a moment where Juicy says, well, this is a tragedy, which means we all have to.

[B]

We all have to die.

[A]

Yeah. It's what they expect. And there's. I don't. I. This is where. I wish that it didn't skip at the library because I don't remember. I don't remember how they staged it on Broadway, but I remember being like flashing lights, like strobe. Strobe light effect of them all, like, attacking each other. And then when the lights came up, nothing had changed.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And they're like. Well, we tried almost this idea of, like, there's the expectation and then there's the. The other. There's option B. Yeah. And I think the. The strength of option B. What kept him from living out the tragedy of Hamlet.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

At least that is how the Broadway production. I remember the vibe sort of being. Reading it. It's much more of a choice. It's less of that. There's an entity keeping them from doing it and more to sort of being.

[B]

Like, well, we can't. We. We don't want to die.

[A]

Yeah. This doesn't feel like us.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

We're. That's not going back to.

[B]

To be or not to be.

[A]

Yeah. And I think it's. It's either Ravi or it's Teacher. So one of them's like, I'm not dying. Like, I'm like, look at me. I'm thriving.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why? Why? Why die night? Why. Why die now? Why die now?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so they. They choose life. And that actually brings Rev back to life in a weird.

[B]

Well, in the. In the fantasy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In the fantasy of joy and the. The Barbecue Follies.

[A]

And the barbecue follows. Is that just Shuffle the law?

[B]

Oh, God. Shuffle Along.

[A]

I. Have you heard me say this? I've said this before. I think Shuffle along is the Follies for our generation of, like, an imperfect, brilliant musical, really, that was a loving homage to a specific era of theater that has. That is no more, that we continue to neglect. Did not get the proper praise it deserved.

[B]

No.

[A]

Got. Got praise. But was ultimately overshadowed by the juggernaut that.

[B]

I think the producer just really tanked it. I think he did. It could have been so much better. Well, it could have had a nice life.

[A]

They underestimated Audra's appeal in the show and thought. And they. Just. Because she was. That whole thing about her pregnancy closing the show is. It's bull.

[B]

It's bull.

[A]

She was always going to be gone for nine weeks.

[B]

And they should have sued. She should have sued for defamation.

[A]

She should have. But she's Audra. She's a class act.

[B]

She is a class act.

[A]

She's. She's the lady.

[B]

Well, also. Well, they did. There was a suit, wasn't there?

[A]

I think. Yes, well, they were. They.

[B]

Because the insurance company.

[A]

I think insurance company tried to either sue Scott Rudin or Scott Rudin tried to sue the insurance company, saying that Audra's pregnancy is what closed the show because it was an unforeseeable circumstance.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Which I think ended up losing because they're like, she was always going to be gone for these three months and. And. And that. That under. That replacement was always gonna be on, like, the difference of her pregnancy is that she. Instead of nine weeks, it was gonna now be like 16 weeks.

[B]

Her replacement would have been one of the best replacements in. In, I think, in history.

[A]

I'm sure she would have been wonderful. She just wasn't selling tickets was the problem.

[B]

I know. I know.

[A]

But again.

[B]

But now she's saying. Now she's writing music for Beyonce.

[A]

Yeah. Therefore, by the grace of God go I. But the ultimate final tableau is everyone's wondering where Larry is and where. What happens with Larry. Because Larry went away.

[B]

Larry went away and he transformed into. He found. He went and found clothes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he transformed himself to, like, little drag queen. It's not really drag, but it's a fabulous outfit. It's. It's. It was. The outfit was so incredible on Broadway. Well, the public and Broadway.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I was in absolute shock.

[A]

Let me read the stage directions because Rabbi says, let me go in the house and see about my baby. Suddenly, the lights transform to something dramatic. Light on the patio doors. And then we see Larry. He is now an utterly divine masterpiece. He is transformed, and he transforms. The space, drag, fashion camp, delight are all at your disposal in whatever iteration he is. Fabulous. So that's all it says. That's all it says. He doesn't have to be in Dragon. He doesn't have to be. He just has to emanate. No, he has to.

[B]

Well, emanate change.

[A]

Yeah. And joy and pride. Yeah, he is. And he says in the stage directions, like, change is the space, which is absolutely what happened on Broadway. The set broke apart.

[B]

Yeah. Opened up, became a Runway.

[A]

Yes. It became a Runway and mirrors and a disco ball.

[B]

And then Larry says, mighty real start to play.

[A]

Yep. And then Larry says, am I late? I lost track of the time. I just threw a little something on, and pow, I'm here. And if you watch the alliance video, or Boston, whichever one it is, it's a little more realistic. Like, he comes out in drag. He's like, oh, I threw this on on Broadway. It was like.

[B]

It was a. It was costume.

[A]

Yes. And. And. And. And it was him sort of being RuPaul on the Runway of, like, am I late? I lost track of the time. Like, it was very. Like, he became the angel from Angels in America by way of Lola and Kinky Boots. And I think that is how we ended up having Kinky Boots. It's, in a way, Fat Ham is a prequel to Kinky Boots.

[B]

Oh, look at that. I love when plays live in the same universe.

[A]

So do I. The final, final stage direction. The play cracks open into a celebration of the feminine, which I love. Celebration of the feminine is a wonderful phrase. Maybe Larry lip syncs to a song sung by someone in love. Maybe Rabbi and Teedra drink wine and cackle and dance in their seats. Maybe the old bones of Rev get up and dance with newfound freedom and joy. Maybe Opal throws dollars at Larry. Maybe Tio rolls a blunt. Maybe Juicy is serenaded. Maybe this is all a love song. I don't know how long this should last. I would say it should last long enough for the whole experience to move from something normal to something sublime. Lights burn on until we are all gone like stars. That's it.

[B]

That's what? And that's why people compare him to Susan Loy Parks. It's very Susan Loy Parks esque of those stage directions. Yeah. Yeah. She's very. She can. Yeah.

[A]

I should. I should. I've only ever seen Susie Parks plays. I call her Susie like we're friends, but in my mind we are. I've only seen her work. I've never actually read it. Oh, it's like I've seen Top Dog, Underdog. I've seen plays for the. For the play gear.

[B]

Many years ago, there was a. They did plays in New York. They did. I don't know if she wrote like a thousand plays or something like that.

[A]

That was Plays with Plague Year.

[B]

Yeah. And I. Wait, what was what you call it?

[A]

Plays for the Plague Year, Whereas. No, she wrote a play every day during lockdown.

[B]

No, no, this is before. This is 2010.

[A]

Oh, I'm so sorry, everybody. I corrected Jason on something that I shouldn't have corrected. He. He was right the first time.

[B]

Yeah. She wrote like it was a thousand plays. Are you looking at that?

[A]

No, I was trying to, but I don't. I don't know the title.

[B]

I don't. I don't remember what was. But I did one because they were. They were happening at all different times in same spaces. But the play that we had was mostly just stage direction.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

It was. It was incredible. So we had. It was all interpretation.

[A]

That is. That is amazing. I was trying to find it. I can't find it. I mean. Yeah. It's just writing. The last two words are. That's it. It's very.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

That's all.

[B]

That's it. That's all. I love giving productions power.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To. To. Because they know their community.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As well. I. I have. This has been done other places since. Do we know.

[A]

Did it at Mark Taper Forum. I'm pretty sure with the entire or most of the original Broadway company, they've now done it at Huntington. They've done it at Alliance. Wilma did it again.

[B]

But like, regionally, I want it to be done like in the tinier theaters.

[A]

Sure. Well, in the country, those are, technically speaking, regional. But they are just like. I know the top echelon.

[B]

Tinier.

[A]

Well, it's. The play hasn't been licensed for very long, so I think it was only on Broadway. It closed on Broadway like a little over a year ago. So I would imagine.

[B]

It seems like so much has happened.

[A]

I know. Right? Well. And it's so much has happened and that the 2023 Tonys feel like both yesterday and a year 10 years ago.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's. Most of the shows from the 2023 season, which is in my opinion was overall a stronger season than the 2024 season. A lot of those shows have not had the lasting impact that we would like in terms of the energy they had when they were on Broadway. Like Kimberly Akimbo for me is a lovely musical that is. That is still being spoken about, but it does not have the staying power fan base of a best musical winner. Fat Ham was very much a moment that hasn't really liked. Been continually talking, spoken of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Really only in. In connection with Leopoldstadt winning the Tony for best play, which I missed.

[B]

I'm still upset that I missed.

[A]

It was very good. Leopoldstadt winning was a sore spot for a lot of people because they felt that it was an opportunity to award a. A more interesting, less crowd pleasing or like highbrow play. It was because that was the year that also we had Fat Ham. Cost of Living, Ain't no Mo and Between Riverside and Crazy.

[B]

Oh, wait. Riverside and Crazy was incredible. Oh, that's a. I said the Pulitzer Prize winner.

[A]

It is, it is. And I saw. I didn't see it on Broadway. I saw Between Riverside and Crazy at second stage. I wish I had seen it on Broadway because at second stage I didn't totally get it. And I would have liked to have seen it again and to see if my. If I had a reappraisal because everyone I know who saw it on Broadway was like, dear.

[B]

Blew me. The set design was incredible.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Well, the house, the apartment spinning was beautiful.

[B]

It was. But it. Yeah. Everything about the show was genius.

[A]

Yeah, I. But I had gripes with pretty much every nominee that year except for maybe Fat Ham. Like every other nominee. I had things that I loved and things that I liked and things I didn't like. Like Cost of Living was a very powerful play and wonderful representation. But I can't say that I enjoyed it or was moved by it. I was. That was me going, this is all very well done, but I'm feeling nothing. Ain't no Mo I thought was a brilliant concept that needed to be 25 minutes shorter.

[B]

The concept was.

[A]

The concept was wonderful. But I am very much in my editing phase right now. I'm seeing so many things these days and I'm like, cut, trim. Lachiusa's three hour musical. Trim, Drag the musical. Two hours with no intermission. Cut that shit down.

[B]

No intermission.

[A]

No intermission. Two hours long.

[B]

Oh, I passed up and down opportunity to see that. See it. I. I should see it, though.

[A]

That needs to be a tight 85 max.

[B]

But they want all the drug. You know, the drag fans want as much time as possible.

[A]

Then get that child off the stage. There's a child with a whole song, and Jujubee doesn't have any.

[B]

A child.

[A]

There is a child in it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And Joey McIntyre.

[B]

I got. I. I gotta go see this.

[A]

Okay. If you. But so, like, with Aino Mope, that was my issue, was, like, I thought the premise was brilliant. I thought every. I thought the premise for every scene was brilliant, but I was like, every scene needs to be two minutes shorter, which would make the whole thing 20 minutes shorter, which would just make it a tight, powerful bop. Because I think Fathom is actually very tight for what it is.

[B]

Very tight, which is why I don't.

[A]

Really have any gripes with it. Leopolstadt was messy, but was. It was fun to see Stoppard but be relatable and take creative risks at such an older age.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And because it was such a personal play, it was actually one of the more understandable and moving plays of his. Because Stoppered is somewhere where it's like, if you aren't understanding what he's doing in the first five minutes, the rest of the night is going to be miserable. Yeah. Yeah. And that's not me sitting here going, oh, I understand all Stopper. I don't. I think I understand two stopper plays.

[B]

I never. I. I've not gotten Stopper as much.

[A]

My dad and I went to go see Travesties at Sag Harbor, Bay Street. It was starring Richard Kind.

[B]

They do so many cool things up there.

[A]

They really do. I saw Lady In Question there with Charles Bush, and it was phenomenal. But my dad is friends with Richard Kind, and Richard's like, I'm never gonna play this role ever again. I'm so wrong for it. But, like, come up and, like, see the freak show. And so we go. And my dad had seen Travesties on Broadway in the 70s. And between my dad's knowledge of World War II, my knowledge of the importance of being Ernest and Oscar Wilde, and our mutual knowledge of the data art movement, we're like. We are combined the demographic for this play, and we understand collectively 60% of it. So we're like, I can't imagine anyone in that audience understanding more than we did. And it was just still so confusing. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an Arrow collar, you're the top, you're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of red. But yeah, fathom all I mean is that it was such a moment in the way that a lot of shows that season were a moment and that haven't really been discussed as much since.

[B]

Like think about how big also post pandemic. There's also a lot in the pipeline.

[A]

Yeah. Like think about like prima facie or fasci, however you pronounce it. The Jody Comer show. How what a hot ticket that was. What a moment it was to be able to see it. Yeah, we really talk about that before.

[B]

We talk about it at all.

[A]

It was a wonderful performance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean I. I try to keep the memory live of Jessica Chastain in Doll's House but people won't listen. It was. I was surprised how much I enjoyed it.

[B]

I. Well now I'm seeing something Boulevard so I feel like I'm, I'm. I'm understanding.

[A]

Yeah. Well listen, Jamie. What Jamie? Jamie Lloyd's Doll's House is a Bart Share production compared to what he's doing with Sunset Boulevard.

[B]

Wow. Yeah. It's incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But I think that the musical lineup of the 2023 Tonys was so much better than this past year's and yet like.

[B]

But yet anything is. Anything is better than this past year.

[A]

Just about.

[B]

I think. I think a root canal would maybe.

[A]

Not the 1989 Tony's when it was Jerome Robbins Broadway opposite Black and Blue and Starmites.

[B]

Yeah. There was another bad. Oh, oh. The other bad season in my lifetime was the year after 9 11. But that was understandably so don't blame.

[A]

911 for sweet smell of Success. Do you mean the Millie years that when you mean.

[B]

Is that the rough year?

[A]

The 2000? It's the 2002 is the first Tony's right after 911 and it's Millie you're in town. Sweet small success in Mamma Mia.

[B]

Okay, I guess it wasn't as bad.

[A]

Unless you're referring to Hairspray moving out Amor in year with Frog and Toast.

[B]

No, that's a great year.

[A]

Then I think you're just lying.

[B]

Maybe I don't remember.

[A]

I think you're just lying.

[B]

Millie was decent.

[A]

The gas leak year was a pretty bad year. That was Mulani.

[B]

Was there bad stuff in between? I remember being underwhelmed.

[A]

Well listen, there are many.

[B]

I was also 20 years old.

[A]

There are also many bad seasons of musicals where we do get are able to Scrounge up, like, three or four solid musicals for the Tonys.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, the Millie year was not a great year for new musicals. But with. With Millie, you're in Town, and Mamma Mia, that's like a nice little.

[B]

You're. I saw you're in Town a few times.

[A]

I'll bet you did. That was my sick bitch.

[B]

Yeah. It's my favorite fucking show.

[A]

You do. You do like water sports, don't you?

[B]

I do. No, I'll never. I'll. I gotta tell you one day about the time I discovered what water sports were. Yeah, I was. I'm a naive child.

[A]

Well, you know, think twice before you say yes to Darren Criss's pool party.

[B]

Or Darren Criss and P. Diddy. You got. You gotta. Gotta be careful.

[A]

We were doing so well.

[B]

We're doing so well.

[A]

Okay, I think we should start wrapping this up.

[B]

Wrap it up. Okay.

[A]

Fat Ham final thoughts.

[B]

I. It was so. Thank you for having me on to talk about this. I actually forgot. I don't think about it a whole lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I forgot how great the show was and revisiting it and all the themes was. It was a really great experience.

[A]

I was so glad you said yes to this. Yeah, I was. I. This was one of the things that I was genuinely thrilled to pick out of the bowl because I remembered loving it, but there was a lot that I forgot. I remembered moments, and I remembered certain lines, but I wanted to revisit it, and I was glad that I was able to do that. And I hope that we gave an appreciation to the listeners for this play. For this wonderful play.

[B]

Really wonderful.

[A]

And a rare Pulitzer winner that isn't about. A rare Pulitzer winner for a black story that isn't about pain.

[B]

The joy. The joy.

[A]

Yes. It is. Finding joy through trauma. It's not about the trauma.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was actually. So I was telling a friend yesterday after I left the library and had coffee with his friend, telling them that I was recording this episode today, and they're like, oh, like, I loved this. This was their view from their experience with black theater movement as a. As an actor of color was what they loved about Fat Hill, as they said. It felt like when we came back from the pandemic, their words was. So many of the black theater we were getting on Broadway was just like vegetables. Like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, eat it. And. And you may not like it, but you have to eat in. Like, otherwise, you're problematic. Like, if Fat Ham was just a celebration.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

In a way that it's what you Want all the time.

[B]

I, I hope that there's a lot more. Yeah, I really do.

[A]

I do too. I think there's something. I think there's something to be said about you can of showing human pain that isn't slavery or disease or violence and is just a human experience and then ultimately coming out of it by choosing a better, A better way forward.

[B]

Choosing yourself.

[A]

Yeah. Choosing you above others. Me before you, some might say. Yeah. And I think that we can hope. It's too early to tell. The play is still too young, but I hope that that can be its, like, legacy of.

[B]

Yeah. I hope more people do. I hope colleges do it. I hope that.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

That schools do it. I, I, I want to see a production of it in, you know, a small theater in Brooklyn.

[A]

Yeah. I think if I, if I were to give any advice to a production that was thinking of doing Fat Ham, it's. Remember, it ends with joy. Remember, these are people. And remember, it's funny.

[B]

It's funny as fuck.

[A]

Which, ironically, is the same memo I would give to angels in America when we get to that episode. It's funny as shit. Do not ever let go of that. And have fun with, with Pap's ghost entrances. They can be fun. He came out of the grill the third time I forgot. Like, he rips open the grill and, like, tumbles out, still smoking. It was great. It was. That show was also where my infatuation with Billy Eugene Jones. Jones came.

[B]

Yeah, he's. He's in something now.

[A]

He's in our town.

[B]

He's in our town. Yeah.

[A]

It is not a good use of him.

[B]

Oh, well, it's like that. He's working well.

[A]

Yeah. Always happy. He's collecting.

[B]

That cast is stacked.

[A]

It's stacked with a lot of wonderfully talented people. Are they all gelling with each other on that stage? That's for you to decide. Listen, Billy Eugene Jones is not in a smoking outfit, and he's not giving Top Daddy energy in our town. And I will never forget his Top Daddy energy as I will not forget his humor and his smoking ness, literally, as Pap and then his true Dom Daddy energy as Rev. And I was like, who is this man? Can he please put his hand on my mouth?

[B]

He got nominated, right?

[A]

He did. Not only Nikki Crawford got nominated as Tedra, Marcel Spears also didn't get nominated as Juicy.

[B]

I wonder what that's about.

[A]

It was a pretty weird year some, because there were a lot of people who got in that we weren't expecting. And because it was like Surprise nominations from Cost of Living and some surprise nominations from Ain't no Mo. Like no one was mad.

[B]

Okay, yeah, being surprised.

[A]

I was disappointed that Billy didn't get in. I wanted him to. Everyone was shocked. Marcel didn't get in. And there were, I would say, two very obvious people who could have been taken out, including. Including one who might have won that year. But whatever, I'm not on the committee.

[B]

It is what it is.

[A]

The person is a talented, apparently very lovely person and we don't want to deny their. Their awards. It's more that that was not their performance.

[B]

It's all politics anyway.

[A]

It's all politics, baby. In the same way that I love that my Riri Zellweger has two Oscars. Do I love that it's for Cold Mountain and Judy? Not really, but bitch is a two time Oscar winner and I will not take that away from her.

[B]

Should have been for Chicago, but here.

[A]

Chicago, Bridget Jones's Diary, Jerry Maguire. Take your pick. Down with Love. Nurse Betty. My God, the woman slaps down any Oscar love. No. At the very least, should have had a costume nomination.

[B]

Gorgeous film.

[A]

Sure is that. Should have had a costume nomination yesterday. But the Oscars hate me and hate gay culture. Jason, where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[B]

You can find me on social media at Jason. J A Y S O N L K E R R on Instagram or if you just happen to be on ScruffnGrinder, give me a shout out.

[A]

But not if you're on the DL. If you want to find me, I'm on Instagram only. Attcoplek. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, give us a nice five star rating review. I don't know what the next episode's gonna be yet. As I said, we've been recording all this out of order. I'm also not entirely sure when this is coming out. This is either coming out the week of my readings livestream on November 16th or the week after. Okay, if it's the week of, stay tuned. If it's the week after, I hope you liked it. Tell your friends about it. It'll be online for a little bit longer. And that's it for now, Jason, we close out every episode with a Broadway diva. Who do you want to close us out with today?

[B]

Well, it's me, so. Elaine Stretch.

[A]

Phenomenal. You don't want to do Nikki Crawford chewing 100 love? No, we'll do. We'll do Elaine Stretch. How about that bit in. In Elaine Stretch of Liberty where she's singing the. The Black Jazzinger song. And her mom.

[B]

A long time daddy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And her mom was like, where did you hear that?

[B]

It was cool. And she dug it.

[A]

She died.

[B]

I forever live for that woman.

[A]

She is.

[B]

And.

[A]

And those gams.

[B]

Oh, that's what we have in common.

[A]

Yep. So. It's so good. She's amazing. All right, that's it for now. We'll see you guys next week. Take it away, Elaine. Stretchy. Bye. I don't want no greenhorn rookie? Like a soldier going to war?

[B]

He's got all that big artillery?

[A]

And he don't know what it's for? I want a long time daddy?