FAT HAM w/ Jayson Kerr - Broadway Breakdown

Summary4 min read

Broadway Breakdown: Episode Summary – FAT HAM with Jayson Kerr

Release Date: November 14, 2024

Introduction

In this episode of Broadway Breakdown, host Matt Koplik welcomes his guest, Jason Kerr, to delve into the intricacies of the Pulitzer-winning play "Fat Ham". This engaging conversation explores the play's narrative, character dynamics, thematic depth, and its place within contemporary American theater.

Overview of "Fat Ham"

[07:22] Matt Koplik:
"We are talking about Fat Ham, which I love ham."

Jason Kerr introduces the play "Fat Ham", clarifying that while it draws inspiration from Shakespeare's Hamlet, it is not a direct adaptation. Instead, it uses Hamlet as a springboard to explore complex themes surrounding family, identity, and trauma within a Black queer context.

Plot and Character Discussions

[07:36] Matt Koplik:
"What is Fat Ham like? What is it about? What's the plot? What's the story?"

Fat Ham centers around Juicy, a young Black queer man grappling with the recent death of his father, Pap, who was murdered in prison. His mother, Teedra, quickly marries his uncle, Rev, mirroring the swift remarriage of Gertrude to Claudius in Hamlet. The play unfolds during a family barbecue, where Pap's ghost appears to Juicy, urging him to avenge his death—a direct parallel to the ghost of Hamlet's father.

[28:13] Jason Kerr:
"His father has died and immediately his mother marries his brother."

The characters in Fat Ham are reimagined to fit this modern narrative:

Juicy embodies Hamlet, struggling with his father's death and his own sense of identity.
Teedra, resembling Gertrude, navigates her loyalty between Juicy and Rev.
Rev, akin to Claudius, becomes a complex antagonist whose motivations intertwine with family and control.
Rabby, similar to Ophelia, and Larry, paralleling Laertes, further enrich the narrative with their unique perspectives and relationships.

Themes: Trauma and the Cycle of Abuse

[34:41] Matt Koplik:
"It discusses how one goes about breaking the cycle of family trauma."

A central theme in Fat Ham is the cycle of trauma and toxic masculinity. The play poignantly addresses how inherited trauma affects generations, particularly within the Black community, highlighting struggles with masculinity and emotional suppression.

[35:04] Jason Kerr:
"Especially in Black culture because of slavery and everything. It changes our DNA."

The conversation delves into how Fat Ham portrays the enduring impact of systemic trauma, emphasizing the importance of acknowledging and breaking free from these destructive cycles to foster healing and self-acceptance.

Pulitzer Prize Context

[09:10] Matt Koplik:
"Love it. It did."

Fat Ham garnered critical acclaim, winning the Pulitzer Prize for Drama. Matt and Jason discuss the significance of this achievement, noting how the play stands out as a rare Pulitzer-winning piece that centers a Black queer narrative without solely focusing on pain, but rather on resilience and joy through trauma.

[15:02] Jason Kerr:
"There's no Pulitzer winner where you go, well, that's a piece of shit."

They also touch upon the broader landscape of Pulitzer winners, critiquing selections that may not resonate as strongly with audiences compared to Fat Ham’s impactful storytelling.

Personal Anecdotes and Reflections

Throughout the episode, Matt and Jason share personal experiences related to Fat Ham. Matt recounts attending a workshop for the musical and his initial skepticism about its length and format, only to be won over by its depth and emotional resonance.

[16:12] Matt Koplik:
"Sometimes the most painful part of getting sick is the getting better part."

Jason echoes similar sentiments, highlighting how Fat Ham provided solace and a sense of community post-pandemic through its compelling portrayal of complex characters and relationships.

Final Thoughts

[150:54] Jason Kerr:
"In the end, it's about choosing how to break free from the past and embrace a path of self-discovery and joy."

The episode concludes with Matt and Jason reflecting on the enduring legacy of Fat Ham. They emphasize the play's message of choosing oneself and breaking free from harmful patterns, advocating for more inclusive and diverse stories in American theater that celebrate resilience and multifaceted identities.

[151:33] Matt Koplik:
"I hope that more people do. I hope colleges do it. I hope that schools do it."

They express hope that Fat Ham will inspire future productions and become a staple in educational and regional theaters, continuing to impact audiences with its powerful narrative and thematic richness.

Notable Quotes

Matt Koplik [07:36]:
"Fat Ham uses Hamlet as a vehicle to tell a story about a family."
Jason Kerr [35:04]:
"Especially in Black culture because of slavery and everything. It changes our DNA."
Matt Koplik [150:40]:
"A rare Pulitzer winner for a Black story that isn't about pain."
Jason Kerr [151:33]:
"It's about choosing how to break free from the past and embrace a path of self-discovery and joy."

Conclusion

This episode of Broadway Breakdown offers a deep and insightful exploration of Fat Ham, celebrating its innovative approach to classic narratives and its significant contribution to contemporary American theater. Matt Koplik and Jason Kerr successfully highlight the play’s emotional depth, cultural relevance, and its triumphant recognition within the prestigious Pulitzer framework, making it a must-listen for theater enthusiasts and newcomers alike.

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Transcript1,666 lines

[00:00]
Ariana Grande
Hi, I'm Ariana Grande. Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit BPM FM to discover more. This episode is brought to you by Amazon. Sometimes the most painful part of getting sick is the getting better part. Waiting on hold for an appointment, sitting in crowded waiting rooms, standing in line at the pharmacy. That's painful. Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy remove those painful parts of getting better with things like 247 virtual visits, visits and prescriptions delivered to your door thanks to Amazon Pharmacy and Amazon One Medical Healthcare just got less painful.
[00:50]
Cynthia Erivo
I can't deny the feeling that you're.
[00:53]
Ariana Grande
Giving me.
[00:59]
Cynthia Erivo
Don'T run away from your love don't turn away. Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Grab Bag and is covering shows that you submitted and I picked out of a bowl. I am your host, Matt Koflik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is a virgin to the pod. He's not a virgin to podcasts in general. In fact, if you go on one of our sister podcasts, Life's But a Song, you'll hear this asshole multiple times. I'm pretty sure either rivals me or has beaten me for the most episodes on Life's But a Song. We'll have a talk about that later. Please welcome for the first time, Jason Kerr.
[02:05]
Ariana Grande
Hey, how you doing? That's introduction.
[02:08]
Cynthia Erivo
I. I thought so.
[02:11]
Ariana Grande
Thank you.
[02:12]
Cynthia Erivo
Listen, a. An intro fit for a fat, fat ham.
[02:18]
Ariana Grande
There's no fatter ham than I.
[02:22]
Cynthia Erivo
No and no. And no leaner bacon than me. I don't know. I don't anymore. It's been a long day, guys. I. Jason already knows this. So we were supposed to record earlier this afternoon and then I got a last minute invitation to a workshop of the new Michael John lachiusa musical. And if you know me, you had me at new Michael John lachiusa musical. They almost lost me because I have a. I know people in that show. And I was like, so how long is it? Because I thought like, oh, two hours. Like, I think Jason and I just like have to push back our recording time by an hour and they're like, oh, it's three hours.
[02:54]
Ariana Grande
Jesus Christ.
[02:56]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes, absolutely. Jesus Christ.
[02:57]
Ariana Grande
It's a full opera.
[02:58]
Cynthia Erivo
It's a. Yeah, yeah.
[03:02]
Ariana Grande
Operas are getting shorter.
[03:04]
Cynthia Erivo
It's a full Oppenheimer at the very least. American Eclipse had the decency to give us a 15 minute break.
[03:12]
Ariana Grande
Oh, that's very cool.
[03:12]
Cynthia Erivo
And to grace us with Mary Testa. But even so, I was like, mj, mjl. Come on, baby, let's go back to our wild party. Hello again, days. Intermissionless, 100 minute, 2 hour baby.
[03:25]
Ariana Grande
Even the first lady sweets. Aren't that the First Daughter Suites? First lady suites.
[03:29]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. And those are. And those are two acts and I think they're like 220 maybe something like that.
[03:33]
Ariana Grande
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't remember being very long.
[03:35]
Cynthia Erivo
No, I mean certain segments felt long, but not because they actually were long.
[03:39]
Ariana Grande
Yeah, yeah.
[03:40]
Cynthia Erivo
I, I still am not entirely sure what that Nixon scene in First Daughter Suite.
[03:46]
Ariana Grande
Is that the, the, the war?
[03:50]
Cynthia Erivo
No, it's the one. Where is it? Patty Nixon, Trisha Nixon, one of them is getting married on the front lawn and it's raining and she's upset and it's Casey Levy and Betsy Morgan as the sisters, Barbara Walsh as the mom, and then someone as the grandma. But like she's the ghost of the grandma in the corner sewing and like commenting on the action and only Barbara Walsh can hear her. It was very like.
[04:16]
Ariana Grande
I don't remember that.
[04:17]
Cynthia Erivo
It was the very first scene.
[04:19]
Ariana Grande
You know, I skipped that on the cast recording as well.
[04:22]
Cynthia Erivo
As well you should. It's a shame because those women sing the fucking shit out of it.
[04:26]
Ariana Grande
But it's, it's a gorgeous score.
[04:28]
Cynthia Erivo
It's. Well, that opening scene is the most lachiusa music that people think of when they think of lachiusa.
[04:34]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[04:34]
Cynthia Erivo
Because then you get to the Ford. The Betty Ford and.
[04:41]
Ariana Grande
Oh, so good.
[04:42]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. What's her.
[04:43]
Ariana Grande
Carter Frasier.
[04:45]
Cynthia Erivo
Alison Fraser is Betty Ford and. But like, who's the little girl? It's so on Carter. I don't remember whoever that first daughter was. It's her like imaginary ship. And Alison Fraser is a drunk ass Betty Ford. And that was awesome. And then I really liked Casey Levy's monologue to Alison Fraser as Reagan's daughter. And then the final scene was really lovely. But that first.
[05:08]
Ariana Grande
My favorite, My favorite is the Barbara Bush.
[05:11]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, that's the last.
[05:12]
Ariana Grande
That's. That's my. That's so heartbreaking.
[05:14]
Cynthia Erivo
Mary Testa and Rachel Bay Jones baby.
[05:16]
Ariana Grande
So good.
[05:17]
Cynthia Erivo
So good.
[05:17]
Ariana Grande
So beautiful.
[05:18]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. I just, I just remember Mary Testa constantly singing, I did not raise my son son to be unpopular.
[05:23]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[05:23]
Cynthia Erivo
And everyone in the theater is like, this is lachiusa's response to popular. I'm gonna help you be popular.
[05:30]
Ariana Grande
I don't think I even Thought it was like that.
[05:32]
Cynthia Erivo
So I went with friend of the pod, rappy result to American we love him. We love him. And there were a couple of different times where he and I were, like, under our breath, sing to each other. Certain Lachusa things that certain moments reminded us of. Like, we both went, like, I forget what it was, but there was a moment where a bunch of women were singing together heavily, and we both were going, before the morning, I will be a witness. And then there's a couple times they say Poughkeepsie, because I think Erin Davies character is from Poughkeepsie. And she keeps being like, I haven't loved Poughkeepsie ever. And I just kept going, there's nothing wrong with Poughkeepsie that living in Manhattan couldn't fix.
[06:09]
Ariana Grande
Ha.
[06:10]
Cynthia Erivo
Sorry. We're musical theater days.
[06:12]
Ariana Grande
Which is so. Which brings us to my anxiety for today.
[06:16]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[06:17]
Ariana Grande
No one, I mean, no one has ever asked me to talk about a play.
[06:21]
Cynthia Erivo
Well, people don't ask me to talk about plays. I made it a point that the listeners had to submit at least one play for their group of submissions because people could submit up to five things.
[06:33]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[06:33]
Cynthia Erivo
And I said, but one of those things has to be a play. And they did.
[06:37]
Ariana Grande
They really did. This is a great one.
[06:38]
Cynthia Erivo
I'm very glad this one got picked. But part of the reason I did that was because I felt like we weren't covering plays enough on here. We got a few, but I, you know, Broadway isn't just musicals.
[06:48]
Ariana Grande
It isn't. I mean, but it's what people think about.
[06:51]
Cynthia Erivo
It is what they think about.
[06:52]
Ariana Grande
There are plays.
[06:52]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. And we are in a. I think we are in a renaissance of American playwriting.
[06:58]
Ariana Grande
We really are.
[06:59]
Cynthia Erivo
We're. We're getting. If musicals are kind of underwhelming me these days, plays are coming back with a vengeance.
[07:05]
Ariana Grande
Well, last year, the plays were the thing that saved my sanity.
[07:08]
Cynthia Erivo
Are you saying that the play's the thing?
[07:10]
Ariana Grande
The play's the thing, yeah. Very well played.
[07:13]
Cynthia Erivo
Thank you. Thank you. So, Jason Kerr, what show are we talking about?
[07:18]
Ariana Grande
We are talking about Fat Ham, which I love ham.
[07:22]
Cynthia Erivo
I, I. I love ham.
[07:24]
Ariana Grande
Light Ham, Ham, ham.
[07:29]
Cynthia Erivo
What is it for? For the uncultured fucks, which is what we call the listeners. What is Fat Ham like? What is it about? What's the plot? What's the story?
[07:36]
Ariana Grande
Fat Ham. If I had to do a synopsis of my own synopsis, it is not an adaptation of Hamlet. It is using Hamlet as a vehicle to tell a story about a Family.
[07:55]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[07:56]
Ariana Grande
I don't want to give too much away.
[07:58]
Cynthia Erivo
We're going to get into all of it.
[07:59]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[08:00]
Cynthia Erivo
I'd say Hamlet is a springboard for it. Yeah. It's definitely. It is the skeleton with which the play dresses itself.
[08:08]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[08:08]
Cynthia Erivo
But it is not a direct.
[08:10]
Ariana Grande
No, I mean it's all over the place. Yeah. It's kind of. It kind of references it in a kind of campy way.
[08:16]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Well, it's very self referential. It's often meta. Everyone's addressing the audience. Like people acknowledge that the audience is there.
[08:25]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[08:26]
Cynthia Erivo
And then we'll just go back to doing what they're doing and then there. And there are times when they recognize that they are in a play and that the play that they're in is, technically speaking, according to the elevator pitch to the audience, a black queer adaptation of Hamlet and that thus why the ending is discussed the way it is and then ultimately rebuffed the way that it is.
[08:45]
Ariana Grande
Love it. It's so well done.
[08:47]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, yeah.
[08:47]
Ariana Grande
Well, you know, I want a Pulitzer, so, you know.
[08:51]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes, it did.
[08:51]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[08:53]
Cynthia Erivo
But so did Driving Miss Daisy.
[08:55]
Ariana Grande
Did it? Well, it's for its time. Did it. Wait, did Driving Miss Daisy win the Pulitzer?
[09:01]
Cynthia Erivo
I think it did.
[09:02]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[09:02]
Cynthia Erivo
I just, I said that so confidently and I don't think I read that for a long time.
[09:07]
Ariana Grande
I briefly glanced at the list of Pulitzer Prize winning dramas.
[09:10]
Cynthia Erivo
Draven misses did win the Pulitzer. The, the Fathom Pulitzer one is interesting because I went back online to read the boards, which is something that I like to do when I do research for these episodes.
[09:23]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[09:23]
Cynthia Erivo
If a show opened at a time when the boards were around or if there was a revival of the show. When the boards are around, I like to read what people were saying.
[09:31]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[09:32]
Cynthia Erivo
And so with Fathom, it was interesting because there were people who saw the broadcast. And we'll talk about that too. Super on board with it. And then when it won the Pulitzer, it was like the week or two before it started performances at the public. So it was already like a pretty noticeable title and then became like a very hot ticket. But it was interesting because people went in then going, oh, well, this is the Pulitzer winner. This is, this is the highbrow suffering play. Like it must. That's what it must be. And, and there are people who wrote online after it's coming out being disappointed because they were like, I don't know, like it was fun but like I. That one, the Pulitzer. And. And it actually is an interesting litmus test because it's sort of that, that prejudice of what people were going in expecting is what the play is ultimately fighting against and the whole point of its existence.
[10:26]
Ariana Grande
Do you think that's because people don't know what the Pulitzer is for?
[10:29]
Cynthia Erivo
I don't know. The Pulitzer. Every now and then the Pulitzer gets it. Super. Right? And then every now and then they get it kind of weird.
[10:35]
Ariana Grande
What do you think it got weird? Which ones do you think?
[10:38]
Cynthia Erivo
I think giving it. I think giving Alby his second Pulitzer for Seascape was weird.
[10:43]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[10:43]
Cynthia Erivo
Sorry. No, his first. I think that was his first Pulitzer.
[10:45]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[10:45]
Cynthia Erivo
Because he got it for Seascape, Three tall women and Delicate Balance. Yes. Or the goat. No. Delicate Balance.
[10:51]
Ariana Grande
Delicate Balance for sure.
[10:51]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. So then it was Delicate Balance, Seascape and three tall women. Him getting it for Seascape was weird. He didn't get it for who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
[10:58]
Ariana Grande
Which is we. Which is interesting.
[11:00]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. I give them props for giving Thorton Wilder his second Pulitzer for Skin of Our Teeth because that play is insane.
[11:08]
Ariana Grande
It is insane. And no, I actually, I did not know the play. I never read it, heard it, seen scenes from it until I saw this last revival. It's insane.
[11:17]
Cynthia Erivo
It is absolutely insane. I can't tell you that I love it.
[11:20]
Ariana Grande
But I, I did love it.
[11:22]
Cynthia Erivo
A lot of people do. It is. If Wilder was having fun with the fourth wall in Our Town, he was like, what if I fuck it in the ear? And Skin of Our Teeth. Just, like, right in the ear, to quote Wendy Testerberger, just balls. Balls to the, to the earlobe. But it's. Yeah, it's, it's because it's. There's so much brilliance in it, but it is kind of a mess at the same time. It's, it's definitely. He was probably dropping acid during out of town tryouts and, like, was rewriting scenes that just got crazier and crazier. And everyone was like, I give up.
[11:59]
Ariana Grande
But he's always been with the fourth wall. Even in, in the Matchmaker.
[12:03]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[12:03]
Ariana Grande
Which I, I, I, I love.
[12:05]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, yeah.
[12:06]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[12:06]
Cynthia Erivo
And then. And this play breaks the fourth wall, too. I'm trying to think of. I think Fiorello winning the Pulitzer is an odd one.
[12:15]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[12:15]
Cynthia Erivo
I don't know if I would have given it to.
[12:17]
Ariana Grande
Was he mayor? No, he was. He was not mayor at the time.
[12:19]
Cynthia Erivo
No. He was no longer mayor.
[12:20]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[12:20]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[12:21]
Ariana Grande
But I know that was, like, political.
[12:22]
Cynthia Erivo
No, he was just beloved. But it's also, like, why they won or tied for best musical, I guess. I think. I don't know if I think that Night Mother is a Pulitzer worthy play. I understand why Heidi Chronicles won for its time. And same with, like Driving Miss Daisy won for its time, but to talk.
[12:42]
Ariana Grande
About more recent ones, I really enjoyed Fairview.
[12:45]
Cynthia Erivo
I didn't get to see that.
[12:47]
Ariana Grande
Oh, man. I'm surprised it didn't get a Broadway production. I think it's a very. Excuse me. I think audiences would love it.
[12:55]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[12:55]
Ariana Grande
And I even think, like, it's weird, but I think even think tourists would love it.
[12:59]
Cynthia Erivo
It's possible. Who knows anymore what they would love, because some of the things that have broken through on Broadway these days. It's. It's wonderful. I love to see it. But. Yeah, none of us thought that oh Mary was gonna be what it is.
[13:10]
Ariana Grande
I. I think there. There was always a little fear on their end, but they're killing it. Like an extension.
[13:16]
Cynthia Erivo
Absolutely. Stereophonic. Also killed it. Like, they're gonna make it to the end of their run. Oop, phone ringing. They're gonna make it to the end of their run. A success.
[13:25]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[13:26]
Cynthia Erivo
It's very exciting. One more ring.
[13:29]
Ariana Grande
One more ring.
[13:30]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. We gotta make sure that magic. I commanded it and it was.
[13:33]
Ariana Grande
So you snapped your fingers.
[13:35]
Cynthia Erivo
I did. I did. So I didn't get to see Fairview. What was. What was the premise of that one?
[13:39]
Ariana Grande
Oh, man. Okay.
[13:44]
Cynthia Erivo
As quickly as you pitched that one.
[13:46]
Ariana Grande
Yeah, I know. Fairview was essentially about. I think it's about who tells what story because it takes. It's three acts. The first act is. It's an African American family, and we see the actions and it happens. The second act is a white narration, and then the action of the first act is happening underneath. Oh, sorry. They're commenting on the act of the play. So we're seeing the play again with no sound, but now with commentary. But now with commentary.
[14:31]
Cynthia Erivo
So similar to this podcast.
[14:33]
Ariana Grande
Yes. And I. I forget how it ends, but. But I don't want to tell. I guess I shouldn't tell people how it ends because they should read the play.
[14:41]
Cynthia Erivo
They should.
[14:42]
Ariana Grande
But I loved it.
[14:44]
Cynthia Erivo
Do you have any Pulitzer winners that sort of make you scratch your head?
[14:51]
Ariana Grande
Not really. The ones that you. I actually hadn't thought about the ones until you mentioned them. I'm like, okay, that kind of makes sense. But if something went to Pulitzer, I'm like, well, I guess as for its time, yeah, it was topical.
[15:03]
Cynthia Erivo
There's. There's no Pulitzer winner where you go, well, that's a piece of shit. There's a. There are winners where you're like, that's the One. Especially sometimes when you look at who the runner ups were and you're like, oh, it beat them.
[15:15]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[15:15]
Cynthia Erivo
I remember the year that the flick won. People were really pissed about that because it beat Fun Home and everyone was really hopped up on Fun Home winning.
[15:21]
Ariana Grande
Fun Home could have been. Should have been a Pulitzer Prize winner.
[15:23]
Cynthia Erivo
It should have been. But Tesori will get her Pulitzer if it kills me.
[15:27]
Ariana Grande
Yeah, I know.
[15:28]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[15:28]
Ariana Grande
Well that would have been Lisa, really, wouldn't it?
[15:30]
Cynthia Erivo
They both would have won.
[15:30]
Ariana Grande
Oh, okay.
[15:31]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. But, but yeah, because Rogers has the Pulitzer and Bach has the Pulitzer, in fact. And Sondheim. So I think Sondheim and Rogers are two people. One of few people who have a pe Got.
[15:42]
Ariana Grande
Oh yes.
[15:44]
Cynthia Erivo
And Lynn will get his pea got once he finally wins that Oscar. He's just got to stop writing copy paste songs for Disney.
[15:52]
Ariana Grande
Well, listen, Disney, pay Disney. I'm sure one Disney production can pay for a house in Hawaii.
[15:58]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, anywhere. He can have as many kids as you want. They're all going to college.
[16:02]
Ariana Grande
They're all going to college and they won't struggle.
[16:04]
Cynthia Erivo
Not one bit. They will not have a Nina in in the Heights, that is for sure. How did, how did Fat Ham enter your chat, Jason?
[16:12]
Ariana Grande
Enter my chat. I, I, my friend was in town and he said I have extra tickets to see the show. To see Fat Hammer the public. Because he knew James.
[16:23]
Cynthia Erivo
James Times.
[16:24]
Ariana Grande
Yes. And I said, okay, I will see anything at the public. I love the public. I knew nothing about it. So I just went. I went sight unseen. I didn't know it was about. It was based on the Hamlet.
[16:39]
Cynthia Erivo
And, and, and how was it?
[16:42]
Ariana Grande
I loved the the last scene was really. Is all will always stick with me because it's so. You know, Sondheim talks about everything is Theater has to have an element of surprise. That was the biggest surprise I'd ever seen on stage in a while when it was just after Pandemic.
[16:58]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[16:58]
Ariana Grande
As well. So we weren't really seeing theater. So I was happy to be in a theater. Yeah. On top of that. So yeah, that was, that's how I first found out about him.
[17:08]
Cynthia Erivo
Wonderful. Yeah. I, I think I had Fatham entered my chat when it was announced. Announced for the public and then won the Pulitzer.
[17:17]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[17:18]
Cynthia Erivo
A little bit later. Yeah. Because I don't remember it being broadcast online when the Wilma Theater where it was commissioned. Yeah.
[17:25]
Ariana Grande
I didn't see that. I didn't know anything. I mean of course it wasn't on my radar.
[17:28]
Cynthia Erivo
Well, it also wasn't up for very Long. It was only up for a month.
[17:31]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[17:31]
Cynthia Erivo
Which is what a lot of these theater companies were doing, was they had. They were releasing professional videos of their productions or doing other things for a while. Like, there was that pandemic zoom filming of significant other where everyone was in front of their computers, but they incorporated other, like, outside shots and all this stuff, and all those would be up for a little bit, and then they would eventually go down. And the idea was to get people to watch as much of it as they could, because it was gonna go away.
[17:59]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[17:59]
Cynthia Erivo
So I don't remember the Wilmet Theater announcing it. I don't remember being up. I don't remember anybody talking about it. But that was, I think, April or May of 2021. And then the public announced Fat Ham for their season. I want to say that August, maybe. Maybe September, because it was actually. I was looking this up the. The season where Fat Ham went to the public. It was announced alongside the Visitor and Suffs and the Visitor and Suffs.
[18:27]
Ariana Grande
That was the same. That wasn't the same.
[18:28]
Cynthia Erivo
That was the same season. Same fucking season. And I know this because I was in my research, looking up the boards, and people were going biz for the. For the. For the Visitor and Suffs. They're like, oh, my God. Suffs is gonna be the next Hamilton, the Visitor. Tom Kitt, David Hyde Pierce. Based off of a movie that we enjoy that gave Richard Jenkins his first Oscar nomination. We mother. We are sat. And then we all know how that turned out.
[18:56]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[18:56]
Cynthia Erivo
And Suffs was frustrating for many. And Fat Ham was sort of like the big surprise hit, because, again, as I said, like, the week or two before they started performances was when they won the Pulitzer. So they just, like, had a spotlight on them all of a sudden.
[19:10]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[19:11]
Cynthia Erivo
And then word was really strong from off Broadway. There was talk that it might transfer, but because it was done in the Thrust, there it was at that Ann.
[19:19]
Ariana Grande
Pasher thing, I think that that staging is best, probably. I know. You know, the American Airlines is what it is. But that Thrust is. Was perfect for the. For the show.
[19:33]
Cynthia Erivo
I have no problem believing that. I went to the library to watch it again, because I saw it at the American Airlines Theater, now the Todd Haynes Theater. Sorry, everybody. But I saw it there, and I really, really did enjoy it. And I wished I had seen it at the Public, because even though I was in the third row, I was like, I feel like this should be in a theater half the size.
[19:52]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Should be the Helen Hayes.
[19:54]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. And I said this about the Haims When I reviewed Yellowface, like, it's a small theater. It's like 700 seats, but it is very ornate.
[20:03]
Ariana Grande
Deep.
[20:03]
Cynthia Erivo
It's deep. It's tall.
[20:04]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[20:05]
Cynthia Erivo
And depending on what show you're doing there, like, on the 20th century, in pajama Game, feel like you are in an intimate, electric musical.
[20:13]
Ariana Grande
I miss them both. I'm so upset. Especially on the 20th century. That's one of my favorite musicals.
[20:18]
Cynthia Erivo
I want to. I want to talk scale back a little bit of the enthusiasm. I said on the 20th century, that was a very lovely revival. Pajama Game was like actual fire. And I say that just because I think it's very rare when we have productions that, like, are actually that kind of electric.
[20:33]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[20:34]
Cynthia Erivo
The Internet wants you to believe it after every first preview, that it's the new thing and it all marketing. Exactly. And. And we'll also. It's. It's gays on Instagram going to the first preview and be like, oh, my God, guys, it's gonna change your life. Change your life. I was there when it happened.
[20:48]
Ariana Grande
All these homosexuals at Sunset Boulevard losing their minds.
[20:53]
Cynthia Erivo
Losing their minds. Well, have you seen it yet?
[20:54]
Ariana Grande
I did.
[20:55]
Cynthia Erivo
What'd you think?
[20:55]
Ariana Grande
I really enjoyed it.
[20:56]
Cynthia Erivo
It's a lot of fun.
[20:57]
Ariana Grande
It's a. It's a lot of fun, and it's very, very, very creative.
[21:01]
Cynthia Erivo
It is. I said in my review as well, and I. I'm sure I write this in my Instagram review. There are some choices in it that only make sense to Jamie Lloyd, and that's okay. I still enjoyed them.
[21:12]
Ariana Grande
It's the campy edges for me, for the.
[21:15]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, for sure. It's. It's. They allow the musical to be fun. Like the movie is fun because the musical takes itself so seriously. It's why I don't like the musical, and I don't think. I think it ultimately misunderstands the assignment. But we're not talking about Sunset Boulevard, but the idea is the gays going to the first preview, going, this is the most epic production you'll ever see. And it's very good.
[21:37]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[21:38]
Cynthia Erivo
There are times when I was very much like, oh, this is really, really fucking cool. And then other times, I was like, right, it's Sunset Boulevard and it's Jamie Lloyd. Like, the I. Let's have lunch for me, was exciting in the sense that musically it gave me what I wanted. It was the right. It was the correct tempo. The vocals were great.
[21:58]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[21:58]
Cynthia Erivo
The staging was fine. It made no sense storytelling wise, but it was cool. Like, when they're in that line and they're each coming up to each other. You know what I'm talking about? When they're having the interactions and they're in a line and each two people at the front come together and then they go to the back and then to the next.
[22:12]
Ariana Grande
I love that.
[22:13]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. And same thing with how they do every movie's movies. A circus where they're sitting in a row of chairs.
[22:17]
Ariana Grande
That was wild. I was, I actually started counting.
[22:20]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[22:21]
Ariana Grande
Because the movement is very interesting in that number. I'm like, what do these poor dancers have to memorize for this count?
[22:31]
Cynthia Erivo
So much. I am so sorry for them when they have a swing. Go on and be like, Jesus fucking Christ.
[22:39]
Ariana Grande
I said when I walked out of theater, I do not envy the understudy rehearsals for the show.
[22:44]
Cynthia Erivo
Not at all.
[22:45]
Ariana Grande
Not one bit.
[22:47]
Cynthia Erivo
But, but, but I just say, I just say that'll. Because like that staging is really cool. But also I was like, I don't know what it means. Storytelling wise, it's just very fun.
[22:55]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[22:56]
Cynthia Erivo
But yeah, it's that energy. And so with, with that ham, I took that energy with a grain of salt. Just because like he never. I don't trust early vibes from any show ever. Ever.
[23:09]
Ariana Grande
You shouldn't.
[23:09]
Cynthia Erivo
I go in with an open mind at arm's length. That's my motto. And I sat in that third row and I so thoroughly enjoyed it.
[23:17]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[23:17]
Cynthia Erivo
The ending did take me by surprise because I wasn't sure what. What it really was. The pitch had always been it's a take on Hamlet.
[23:27]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[23:28]
Cynthia Erivo
And I was like, okay, so like is it beat for beat? Is it like, do they do a lot of the dialogue from Hamlet but they give it a black queer spin and the answer is like yes and no and no and yes. There, there is some Hamlet in there.
[23:44]
Ariana Grande
Quite a bit.
[23:45]
Cynthia Erivo
Quite a bit. Yeah.
[23:46]
Ariana Grande
It kind of takes, I think that it takes the to be or not to be just phrase and just turns it into a play.
[23:53]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Well, so I was watching an interview with James Iams, the playwright who used to be one of the co artistic directors of the wilma, which is why that was the theater where it premiered at and where it was commissioned because he's a Philadelphia, a former actor now playwright based in Philadelphia.
[24:09]
Ariana Grande
He's a true multi hyphenated. I know he directed as well.
[24:13]
Cynthia Erivo
He's kind of everything I used to say. I wanted to be the male Elaine. Maybe I. Maybe I want to be the white James Ives. Is that okay to say? Elaine doesn't have a Pulitzer.
[24:30]
Ariana Grande
She doesn't have a Pulitzer, but she does. Her scripts are iconic. Oh, yeah, they're very funny.
[24:35]
Cynthia Erivo
If they could make a gay Jewish baby and have it be me, because I want to be. I would like my own fat hand. But also I want my own birdcage.
[24:43]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[24:44]
Cynthia Erivo
Like, can. Can I please have it, Daddy?
[24:47]
Ariana Grande
Well, James. And maybe you want to be James, because James says he wants to do more different types of genres.
[24:53]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[24:54]
Ariana Grande
So maybe he will have a birdcage.
[24:56]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. I would love. Listen, I would love to do a horror musical.
[24:59]
Ariana Grande
Oh, my goodness.
[25:01]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[25:01]
Ariana Grande
Do we have a true. Because sweetie doesn't really.
[25:04]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, depends on. Depends on. It's a thriller.
[25:08]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[25:08]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. The Pie Shop for me was like the only time it ever was a thriller. The last revival was a comedic paper mill production. But. And that's not me being shady. Like, everyone involved in that production's like, it's a comedy. I'm like, no, it isn't. It says thriller on the poster. God damn it. But I remember seeing Fat Hammond just being really surprised by how funny it was and how inventive it was. How tight it was. Again, I just saw a three hour Lachiusa musical. So like an hour, an hour 45 play in and out. Was thrilled.
[25:38]
Ariana Grande
It's very tight.
[25:39]
Cynthia Erivo
And I went to the library again to rewatch it. I wanted to watch the public production. I don't think they ended up filming it there. Maybe they did. And they just gave me the Broadway one just on a whim because I said, fat ham. And they just like, great, go here. Yeah, they gave me Broadway and everything was mostly fine. It started skipping after the. What a piece of work is, man. It started to skip a little bit during the Larry and Juicy scene. And then when Juicy was doing what a piece of work is, man. That's when it, like, fully started. Skip. So I was like, I had to stop it and just read the script to be like, and what happened again?
[26:15]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[26:16]
Cynthia Erivo
And that was. And that was that. But I remember important.
[26:18]
Ariana Grande
That's pretty important part.
[26:19]
Cynthia Erivo
It is. But I do. I do vividly remember the ending. So I wanted to remember how we got there. Yeah, we will talk about the ending and how we got there. First, let us take a quick break.
[26:31]
Ariana Grande
Billy, I beg to differ with you.
[26:33]
Cynthia Erivo
How do you mean?
[26:33]
Ariana Grande
You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire.
[26:46]
Cynthia Erivo
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[27:18]
Ariana Grande
And we back.
[27:20]
Cynthia Erivo
So our main character is Juicy.
[27:23]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[27:24]
Cynthia Erivo
That is Hamlet in Gaiman's terms. What is Juicy's? Oh, so I meant to say this also in the interview with James Iams they were like, what is fat Ham about? And he says, it's about this queer black man, Juicy. And the play is him knowing that he's supposed to die and trying to figure out how not to. Because Juicy's. It seems like Juicy is the only. They all know they're in a play of some sort. Juicy is the only one who knows that the play is supposed to be Hamlet. Yeah. Tragedy. And so he is always like, trying to think of ways out of it. And yet because he is who he is, cannot help but indulge in all the ways that's propelling the plot forward. But what is it? What is his predicament? What has happened to Juicy at the top of this play?
[28:13]
Ariana Grande
Well, his father has died, been murdered. Has been. Well, he doesn't know that, does he?
[28:21]
Cynthia Erivo
They know that he got stabbed in prison.
[28:23]
Ariana Grande
Yes. But they just assumed he was dead.
[28:26]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, they're like, you know, I've seen Oz. You get stabbed in prison, you get shanked. Yes, yes.
[28:32]
Ariana Grande
His father has died and immediately his mother marries his brother. His. His uncle.
[28:39]
Cynthia Erivo
His uncle.
[28:41]
Ariana Grande
And the where we find him is right after they come back from the. Just of the piece. Yeah. And they're celebrating with a barbecue and their friends are coming over and you know. And then the ghost appears.
[28:53]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes.
[28:54]
Ariana Grande
And then the drama starts to ensue because the ghost tells him to kill to avenge his death.
[28:59]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes, because he informs Juicy. Pap informs Juicy that Rev, his uncle, was the. Was the one who carried out his murder. Got someone on the inside to kill Pap and then Juicy is basically conflicted with that the entire rest of the play.
[29:13]
Ariana Grande
That's the Hamlet aspect.
[29:14]
Cynthia Erivo
That is the Hamlet aspect.
[29:15]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[29:15]
Cynthia Erivo
And every character has a connection to Hamlet. I have my script right here, which I was given through my Tony Ward connections. Thank you so much.
[29:24]
Ariana Grande
Oh, thank you, Tony person.
[29:25]
Cynthia Erivo
They also gave Us Barbecue sauce. And by us, I mean they gave my Tony Ward friend barbecue sauce and my friend gave it to me.
[29:31]
Ariana Grande
What kind of barbecue sauce?
[29:32]
Cynthia Erivo
I don't remember. I ate it. Yes. I ate it so fast.
[29:35]
Ariana Grande
It's good.
[29:36]
Cynthia Erivo
I think it was honey barbecue.
[29:37]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[29:38]
Cynthia Erivo
I prefer a little tangier, but also.
[29:39]
Ariana Grande
Like a little more vinegar. Well, they talk about the sauce in the show has. Is vinegar. It's not vinegar based, but the vinegar gives a tang.
[29:46]
Cynthia Erivo
Exactly, exactly. Listen, I'm never going to turn down a bottle of barbecue sauce, but do I have my preferences? Absolutely.
[29:54]
Ariana Grande
What's your. What's your favorite barbecue sauce?
[29:57]
Cynthia Erivo
I like smoky smokehouse barbecue sauce. Oh, yeah. I like that flavor. I like a little kick to it.
[30:03]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[30:04]
Cynthia Erivo
I mean, I'll just put it on anything. I prefer it to ketchup, if I'm being honest.
[30:08]
Ariana Grande
Really? You have barbecue sauce in lieu of ketchup?
[30:11]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[30:12]
Ariana Grande
On a burger.
[30:13]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[30:13]
Ariana Grande
Okay. I guess they are.
[30:14]
Cynthia Erivo
And fries.
[30:15]
Ariana Grande
Wow.
[30:16]
Cynthia Erivo
And not a hot dog. I won't do it on a hot dog.
[30:18]
Ariana Grande
Okay, Hot dog.
[30:19]
Cynthia Erivo
I always do ketchup and mustard with some potato chips on top.
[30:22]
Ariana Grande
That gives a little crunch.
[30:23]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, I like that. I love a good crunch. Crunch. Crunch. Bitch. But so Juicy is our Hamlet. He's. Let me read these character descriptions for you. Our protagonist is juicy. Is thick, cc, 20 to 21, black. He's beautiful. He is lonely. He is smart. A kind of Hamlet.
[30:43]
Ariana Grande
A kind of Hamlet, Yes.
[30:44]
Cynthia Erivo
Next up is Teedra. Is Juicy's mother. 45 to 50, black. She is a good mother. James wants us to know this.
[30:52]
Ariana Grande
She is a good mother.
[30:53]
Cynthia Erivo
A kind of Gertrude. Rev is Teidra's husband, 45 to 50, black. Her dad, ex husband's brother, pig farmer and pit master, electric. A kind of Claudius. Same actor as Pap. And then Pap is the ghost of Juicy's father. Appears 45ish. Black, was in prison for killing someone because of their. Because their breath stank till he got shanked on the way to dinner. A kind of Hamlet's father. Then we have Opal. Is one of Juicy's only friends, 19 to 20. She loves juicy and worries about him. A kind of Ophelia. How many different ways can I describe this? Larry is a boy that is attracted to Juicy. Spoiler alert. James, 21 to 23, a Marine trying to heal from PTSD, has a secret, awkward kind of lay artist. And then we have Rab. Is it Rabbi? Rabbi. I didn't say Rabbi. It is. It's spelled R A. Rabby. Rabby. R a b. B. Yeah. Larry and opal's mother. She's 40, 40 to 45. Tedra's friend, semi churchy, but honestly, she'd just want to drink and praise the Lord.
[32:01]
Ariana Grande
Semi.
[32:02]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[32:02]
Ariana Grande
Oh, I guess that makes sense. That makes sense.
[32:04]
Cynthia Erivo
Well, because in the Broadway production, she's in full get up with the fascinator and everything.
[32:09]
Ariana Grande
Correct.
[32:09]
Cynthia Erivo
But I think they're the. Maybe they'll.
[32:12]
Ariana Grande
The Huntington Theater was. She was a little more reserved, but the. The Wilma one that I watched, she's also in full regalia.
[32:19]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[32:20]
Ariana Grande
In the top of it, she loses the hat.
[32:21]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. I think you can have fun with that.
[32:23]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[32:23]
Cynthia Erivo
That's a kind of Polonius. Very obvious that. That one's felonious. And then tio. Clever. 20. 20 to 40. Jesus.
[32:32]
Ariana Grande
40.
[32:33]
Cynthia Erivo
We're just having fun with that age. Right.
[32:34]
Ariana Grande
He's a comic relief. So, I mean, you can do whatever you want.
[32:37]
Cynthia Erivo
Black or Afro, Latinx, Juicy's cousin, oldest friend. A kind of Horatio.
[32:42]
Ariana Grande
It would mean something else if he's 40, though. If Juicy's supposed to be 20 and Tio is 40, it's a very different relationship. Exactly.
[32:48]
Cynthia Erivo
And, well, it means that they're childhoods are so different because they talk about their childhood a little bit and you get the understanding that they were close in age. But if Tio is like 20 years older than Juicy, it doesn't make sense.
[33:02]
Ariana Grande
It doesn't work. Especially because Teal is the one that's like. That explains trauma. Because it's. That's something he's comfortable. I don't know. I guess it could work, but.
[33:11]
Cynthia Erivo
But it also talks about his nocturnal omissions of Tea.
[33:14]
Ariana Grande
Yes. Yeah.
[33:15]
Cynthia Erivo
I'm like, well, so if he's five years younger than Tea. Draw. That doesn't make.
[33:19]
Ariana Grande
It's not as weird.
[33:20]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Most. You really only get those wet dreams in your. In your pubescent stage. You get them as frequently and involuntarily.
[33:30]
Ariana Grande
You can still get them as. As an adult if you haven't. If you haven't been active enough.
[33:36]
Cynthia Erivo
If you haven't been choking the bishop enough. Yeah.
[33:37]
Ariana Grande
Correct. Yeah. It still happens.
[33:39]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. If you haven't been juicing the ham.
[33:40]
Ariana Grande
You'Ve been too busy. Which.
[33:42]
Cynthia Erivo
Too busy. Too tired, too sad.
[33:44]
Ariana Grande
Yes. Mostly sad.
[33:46]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[33:46]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[33:48]
Cynthia Erivo
It's hard for me to be sad, Jason, because I look in the mirror and I go, sometimes there's God. So quickly. That's a streetcar reference. For those of you who listened to that episode.
[33:59]
Ariana Grande
I thought you were gonna say something about, like, I don't know your looks. About.
[34:04]
Cynthia Erivo
You know, about how my looks are awful. No, my looks are stunning.
[34:08]
Ariana Grande
They are absolutely stunning.
[34:09]
Cynthia Erivo
No notes.
[34:11]
Ariana Grande
No notes? No. You have no Muppet qualities.
[34:13]
Cynthia Erivo
No.
[34:14]
Ariana Grande
No.
[34:14]
Cynthia Erivo
But. So when. How. I'm trying to find a way in. What is something you want to talk about about this play? I was trying to start it on Juicy, but then I got distracted. You tell me what you want.
[34:24]
Ariana Grande
I think the best thing about this play is how it discusses. It's like a. It's like a term paper on trauma. On trauma in the family. Sure. It's. It's kind. Watching it today, I didn't even notice how well they set it up.
[34:41]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[34:42]
Ariana Grande
Where I was watching it originally. But breaking.
[34:47]
Cynthia Erivo
How.
[34:48]
Ariana Grande
It discusses how one goes about breaking the cycle of family trauma. Yeah. Which is something that is eternal. It's very. It's very universal. Another reason why I think it went to Pulitzer.
[34:59]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Well, because that's something that was being spoken of a lot during lockdown was inherited trauma.
[35:04]
Ariana Grande
Right.
[35:05]
Cynthia Erivo
Of things that you can't understand, why you feel a certain kind of way. And it relates to generations of trauma that has never been addressed. It's never been processed. That is manifesting in you. Because that does. Right.
[35:18]
Ariana Grande
It changes your DNA.
[35:20]
Cynthia Erivo
It does.
[35:20]
Ariana Grande
Especially, you know, in. In. In Black. In African American. In the African American culture because of slavery and everything. It's. It actually changes our DNA, which I find interesting.
[35:32]
Cynthia Erivo
Absolutely. Yeah.
[35:33]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[35:33]
Cynthia Erivo
Well. And then. And it just never, ever, like, let up. It just. It just morphed into something else.
[35:41]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Yeah. And something that can be deadly in others. It's like a. It's a cancer.
[35:45]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. It's. When you aren't. When you are not acknowledging your feelings. There's this weird thing, especially with men of all races and cultures, where showing emotion is considered a weakness.
[35:58]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[35:59]
Cynthia Erivo
When actually suppressing it is what gives you ulcers. And cancer.
[36:03]
Ariana Grande
And cancer.
[36:04]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. And it's so, like, crying is a natural response. Frustration is a natural response. Like hate is a natural response. It. You need to let it out because if you don't, it will fucking eat you.
[36:19]
Ariana Grande
Eat you a lot. I mean, I listen to. I think I wrote it down. There's a point where. Where Rev was. Well, people. People refer to Juicy in so many different ways. They refer to him as soft.
[36:34]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes.
[36:34]
Ariana Grande
And sensitive and.
[36:37]
Cynthia Erivo
And weird.
[36:39]
Ariana Grande
But he kind of. I think that he knows how to internalize that because then he sings Creep, which I think is such a great response.
[36:44]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[36:45]
Ariana Grande
To all the things are coming at him. But there's a moment with him and Rev, where he. He's basically like, be a man, essentially. He didn't say it, but you can feel that that's what he wants to say. And that is such a prevalent issue in the black community that, I mean, I felt it very deeply blessed you.
[37:05]
Cynthia Erivo
Thank you. Well, and it's so easy when the play begins because we know about the whole Gertrude marries Claudius and all this other stuff. So you know that Teetra has married Rev.
[37:16]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[37:16]
Cynthia Erivo
And Pap is dead. We find out that Pap has been dead a week. But what we learn quickly. So first, also, the play begins on Broadway. What they did. The actor playing Tio came running down the aisle with a boombox that was blaring celebration. And the stage is the backyard of their house of Rev Teidra and Juicy's house. And they've got decorations everywhere. And James I'mes says in the stage directions, like, it needs to look like the most last minute party ever.
[37:45]
Ariana Grande
Oh, yeah.
[37:46]
Cynthia Erivo
He's like, the balloons are from a baby shower, the sparklings are from a wedding. Like it's. Everything is slapped together last minute. But so with that, with the look, with the music, we're already being told, like, this is not gonna. We're not starting heavy. This is. It's light. It's light first of all, because we are at a party. And then like the very first thing that we see is Tio on his phone watching porn.
[38:09]
Ariana Grande
I love that.
[38:10]
Cynthia Erivo
Only the script says onlyfans. They want it to be made very clear. Oh, I think so. That way curated. Well, maybe. Yeah. Probably has somebody that he subscribes to.
[38:20]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[38:20]
Cynthia Erivo
But also, in a way, there are some free accounts. There are some free accounts or, you know, people will rip videos. But what you can do that, you can rip anything.
[38:28]
Ariana Grande
Let's talk later.
[38:29]
Cynthia Erivo
You know, you can rip anything on the Internet.
[38:31]
Ariana Grande
Wow.
[38:32]
Cynthia Erivo
I don't do that, but I just don't know how. But I think I, I actually, I talked about this to someone the other day about porn, of how it's sort of how the culture of porn has evolved in terms of what we like. Of what we. What we look for now. It used to be a lot of scripted stuff and. Yeah. And studio stuff. And now it's a lot more just fantasy. Not even fantasy. Like, there's a lot of just like. Like let's look at gay porn. Like the Sean Cody's of it all or the Jake Cruz's of it all, where it's just like two guys talking in front of the camera and then just Going for it. And the. The idea supposedly being this is real. You're watching two guys genuinely enjoy each other. It's not just for a scene.
[39:17]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Can we say fuck on this podcast?
[39:19]
Cynthia Erivo
I think we said it 10 times already, but yes, you can.
[39:24]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[39:24]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes, you can absolutely say fuck, piss and shit.
[39:27]
Ariana Grande
Love it, Love it.
[39:28]
Cynthia Erivo
This.
[39:28]
Ariana Grande
We.
[39:28]
Cynthia Erivo
I mean, we did a three hour south park bicker, longer and uncut episode. Oh, you really think we got through all of that without saying fuck? Exactly. But. So I think OnlyFans became the progression of that. Of. Well, you know, there's still Sean Cody and all those other places. Like, that's still kind of curated. There's like talent scout. It's. There's. There's a filter system. A lot of those guys are gay for pay. Like, but OnlyFans, that is someone out there in the world.
[39:52]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[39:53]
Cynthia Erivo
And that is them with their person or their friend. And, like, they're just genuinely going for, like, it's the most intimate and we feel the most, like, included in all, like, it's. It's hottest because we think we can believe even further that it's genuine pleasure on the screen.
[40:08]
Ariana Grande
Oh, okay.
[40:09]
Cynthia Erivo
It's like the, like.
[40:10]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[40:10]
Cynthia Erivo
The last veil of artifice we could possibly believe ourselves into thinking is. Is pulled away with, only it's like.
[40:19]
Ariana Grande
A notch above amateur porn.
[40:20]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[40:21]
Ariana Grande
I mean, it is amateur, but it is amateur. It's very curated.
[40:24]
Cynthia Erivo
It's amateur porn with what's wrong for agency.
[40:31]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of crossover. A lot of artists who like.
[40:34]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, yeah, so many collabs. It's like, become the new YouTube. Oh, my God. My God. Not a crossover collab. Me and these other five accounts doing a nice little lazy Susan gangbang. Spin me around right round. Baby bukkake. More like Bukay K bouquet. How about some bukake bouquet? Oh, God. Is this gonna be the episode that gets me canceled?
[41:03]
Ariana Grande
Yeah, I'm glad to be a part of it.
[41:07]
Cynthia Erivo
This was a sting operation from Jason all along.
[41:11]
Ariana Grande
It was Jason all along.
[41:15]
Cynthia Erivo
I still need to watch that sequel, the Agatha.
[41:18]
Ariana Grande
I'm watching it. It's. It's good.
[41:19]
Cynthia Erivo
I hear it.
[41:20]
Ariana Grande
Actually, this. This week is when I finally got on board. I was like, oh, now I know what the show's about.
[41:27]
Cynthia Erivo
Well, in fairness, that was how a lot of people felt about WandaVision.
[41:29]
Ariana Grande
It took, that is true, like, three.
[41:30]
Cynthia Erivo
Or four episodes for people to realize what was happening.
[41:32]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[41:33]
Cynthia Erivo
But with Fat Ham, this is just me in this nutshell with that. Yeah. So, like, we Start off knowing that this is the vibe. It's energy, it's light. And Juicy is also the only one in black. And no one else is mourning Pap's death. And Juicy even, like, Juicy gets confronted a lot because as an audience, we are already prejudice against Gertrude of doing this like, super tacky, almost vile thing. And she's aware of it. She even like, looks out of the audience. She goes, they're judging me. But we learned pretty quickly, like, Pap, her dead husband, wasn't a nice man and for all intents and purposes was Rev is actually kinder to her than Pap is. He still has his stuff and we'll get into all that. But like, Pap was far more physically abusive, while Rev is a little more mentally abusive and controlling. Pap, you know, we learned how to violent streak. He was very hard on Juicy. And we learned when it went to jail for killing one of the employees at his barbecue restaurant because his breath.
[42:35]
Ariana Grande
Stank and like he was rotting from the inside. Yeah, I understand though.
[42:39]
Cynthia Erivo
I do too.
[42:39]
Ariana Grande
I get it.
[42:40]
Cynthia Erivo
There are people who are like, it goes beyond halitosis. Like there's something wrong with you.
[42:44]
Ariana Grande
See a doctor.
[42:45]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, well, that's something else. It's the thing about not to go into south park mode again. But farts. Like, it's, it's, it's, sometimes you need to do it. It's, it's an emission of gas that just, it happens. It's natural with everyone. You can tell when it's something like you ate that's just like very spicy or whatever. Sometimes it's like your bowel movements are on their way. You better get ready. And then there's. Yeah. And then there's others where like, did something die in you? Yeah.
[43:12]
Ariana Grande
Do you eat too many eggs? Do you just eat sulfur?
[43:15]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Do you have cancer of the everywhere? Like, that's what I want to know. And that is what we ultimately are told that this employee had that. And because Juicy even says when he's like, my dad was so cold blooded, he, he went up to an employee who all he said was like, how are you doing today? And he took out his knife and he like cut his neck so deep the head came off.
[43:40]
Ariana Grande
Came off.
[43:40]
Cynthia Erivo
And then there's a p. And Juicy, he's like, now, to be fair, I.
[43:44]
Ariana Grande
I, I love this, this aspect of fat ham.
[43:49]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[43:49]
Ariana Grande
Because it feels. I don't. We can talk about this now. We can feel free to move.
[43:53]
Cynthia Erivo
We're gonna go all over the place.
[43:54]
Ariana Grande
Okay, great. I love that. Because Juicy doesn't think that he is his father. He thinks that he's very different. And his. His pap says, you are like me. And then we find out later when he outs Larry that. And Larry says to him, you can be really cruel.
[44:13]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[44:14]
Ariana Grande
You can be really mean sometimes. And then. And that I think that's a really interesting. Like, oh, that. That. That darkness is also in me. That's been. That trauma has been passed down to me.
[44:23]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Because violence isn't always just physical. It's emotional, it's mental.
[44:27]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[44:27]
Cynthia Erivo
And that is a case where Juicy took advantage of the trust someone had in him to make a point. That had nothing to do with Juicy anyway.
[44:37]
Ariana Grande
Correct.
[44:38]
Cynthia Erivo
He was just lashing out and hurt someone.
[44:41]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[44:41]
Cynthia Erivo
And then Larry and kind.
[44:43]
Ariana Grande
Physically hurt in the inter.
[44:45]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[44:46]
Ariana Grande
Fuck around and find out. Truly, that is that moment.
[44:49]
Cynthia Erivo
Truly. But I mean, I think the. So we were talking about this, like the. The generational trauma, this. The cycle of abuse and the cycle of toxicity, especially toxic masculinity, toxic suppression, toxic inner racism, inner homophobia and sexism. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think. I don't know if we've ever talked about this. Jason and I are famously very, very, very dear friends who've spoken many times a day. But no, we did have a really Lovely conversation at 9th Avenue Saloon about Hell's Kitchen, but.
[45:21]
Ariana Grande
Yes, yes, we did.
[45:22]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. I have always felt that all marginalized. All marginalized groups, for some reason or another, act out a tier system within them. It's like you see it always. Yeah, absolutely. And you see it in prisons too. Yeah, it's like, like, yeah, gay, but like, I'm not a super feminine gay. I'm pretty masc. Like, I could pass or like, yeah, I'm. Or let's do something even lighter, though.
[45:43]
Ariana Grande
Look at their gay community.
[45:44]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, but like, also like a lighter community. The musical theater kid community.
[45:49]
Ariana Grande
Oh, goodness gracious.
[45:50]
Cynthia Erivo
You do do musicals for a living. Yeah, like, I do musicals. Like, I don't. I don't watch musicals. I don't know all the Sondheim stuff. Like, I'm not that kind of person. Like, I'm just. I just have to be talented and hot and like, I don't know, I get work sometimes. Like, it's this.
[46:01]
Ariana Grande
This even the theater community. Because then you have people who are like, oh, I don't like musicals.
[46:05]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Oh, God. I have friends who get casting musicals pretty consistently and they consider themselves play actors and they get so mad when they get casting musicals. I'm like, do you want to turn down the job.
[46:15]
Ariana Grande
Because I'll take it.
[46:17]
Cynthia Erivo
I'll take it.
[46:17]
Ariana Grande
I'm dying to do a book musical. Yeah, listen, and everyone. I'm dying to do a book musical. There we go.
[46:25]
Cynthia Erivo
Cast me in Finding Neverland and watch me spin gold.
[46:29]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[46:30]
Cynthia Erivo
Out of covered straw. I will do it.
[46:33]
Ariana Grande
I didn't see that. I didn't even see it.
[46:35]
Cynthia Erivo
You didn't need to.
[46:36]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Wait, did I. Wait, no.
[46:39]
Cynthia Erivo
Have you ever seen.
[46:40]
Ariana Grande
Yes, I did see. Funny enough. Sorry.
[46:41]
Cynthia Erivo
I was gonna say. I was gonna say, have you ever seen a Lifetime movie? Have you ever seen a musical at all? Have you ever seen a fantasy movie? Did you ever see that movie? Just Friends with Ryan Reynolds and Amy Smart and.
[46:56]
Ariana Grande
No.
[46:56]
Cynthia Erivo
Okay, it's. Ryan Reynolds is going. It comes back home for a spell after. He used to be heavier and geekier, but he comes back 10 years later and he looks like Ryan Reynolds and he's still crushing on his old high school sweetheart or high school crush and his mom, Julie Halston of Airplane fame.
[47:13]
Ariana Grande
Oh, wow.
[47:13]
Cynthia Erivo
Julie. Julie Haggerty. Yeah. No, Julie Haggarty. His mom, Julie Haggerty. He's like, I. I need to impress her with my skating skills. And she's like, you don't have to do anything. You just have to be yourself. Be yourself, Be yourself.
[47:28]
Ariana Grande
Is there music?
[47:29]
Cynthia Erivo
No, it's just. No, it's just her doing that solo. It's her being Julie Haggerty. It's that plus the Imagination Song from the Imaginationland trilogy of south park that is Finding Neverland for two and a half hours. Jesus Christ. It goes back and forth between Be Yourself, Be Yourself and Imagination. Imagination. Imagination. I love it. I love it so much.
[47:51]
Ariana Grande
It's one of those shows I clearly forgot that I saw. But there are those shows.
[47:54]
Cynthia Erivo
There are those shows. But the. The tier system that I'm referring to, though, just like so with Fatham, Juicy absolutely believes he is above everyone. He doesn't. He doesn't openly acknowledge it. He keeps trying to deny it, but.
[48:07]
Ariana Grande
It'S clear from just how he alienates himself.
[48:10]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, he alienates himself and judges and. And puts himself outside of the action and is the. He is in control of the fourth wall breaking. So whenever anybody else breaks the fourth wall, it's with him as, like, their co pilot. Yeah, right. It's very fleabag in a way.
[48:24]
Ariana Grande
I know. I never saw Fleabag. A whole pandemic. I never watched it.
[48:27]
Cynthia Erivo
Why do you hate women?
[48:29]
Ariana Grande
Oh, well, I can't say on the.
[48:32]
Cynthia Erivo
Podcast, but, you know, it's because they don't have penises.
[48:34]
Ariana Grande
It's because they don't have penises. Big penises. Well, they have penises like things. But it does. It's not as big as a penis.
[48:40]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. There's a. There's a whole episode of Sex and City about this.
[48:44]
Ariana Grande
Is there?
[48:45]
Cynthia Erivo
When Samantha goes gay for two episodes. 3.
[48:48]
Ariana Grande
That's a long time. I was. I was in college for that. I barely remember anything. Alcohol killed those memories.
[48:54]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, well, it can kill many things, but no, like, yeah, Juicy. He's often the one reflecting out to the audience. And especially when I was watching as much of the Lincoln center recording as I could. The way they had Marcel Spears. He, like, even when he wasn't saying anything to break the fourth wall, there were times when he would just look out at the audience to give a reflection. For example, there's. There's a great moment that is Rev talking about the secret of the pork, of how it falls to the bone. Because he's like, it's not about the sauce. It's not about this. He's like, it's how you tenderize it. It's all about the rub. And then Juicy says, ah, there's the rub. Yeah. Which is a fabulous, fabulous connection. And I've watched three different people do it different ways. One did it, you know, smirking to himself like, ah, there's a rub. Knowing the reference he's making. Another one did it just sort of like silly. And then Marcel did it looking out to the audience with sort of like a little tada. Shoulder, like, of like, there it is. That's.
[50:00]
Ariana Grande
There's Hamlet.
[50:01]
Cynthia Erivo
There's Hamlet. That's what you've been waiting for. Like, does the hair tuck behind the ear where there's no hair? Like you're just tucking air. And it was great. And. And. But it takes off, Rev, because even if he doesn't know what Juicy saying, he knows the attitude behind it.
[50:15]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[50:15]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Even if you don't understand the words, you can understand the tone. Absolutely. Yeah. It's why I. Again, I'm all scattered brain today. Yeah, but we all are. Patton Oswald has a whole bit in one of his standups about how, like, we need to think about the tone and the purpose behind what people say. So if they use the wrong word once in a while, you can not yell at them and go, totally hear what you're trying to say. Let's change that word. Because that person isn't the enemy. He's like, you know, who does learn all the right words? He's like, the enemy. So they can trick you into thinking that what they're saying is, we're going.
[50:54]
Ariana Grande
Through that right now.
[50:55]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, absolutely. But that's the thing, is Rev doesn't know the words, but he knows the tone.
[51:00]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[51:00]
Cynthia Erivo
And he doesn't like it one bit. Because there's one thing men don't like.
[51:04]
Ariana Grande
It's to be feel inferior.
[51:06]
Cynthia Erivo
Feel inferior. To be laughed at.
[51:08]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Yeah. And that's why he. That's why he ultimately loses his cool.
[51:11]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[51:11]
Ariana Grande
I mean, especially when he gets him to confess.
[51:14]
Cynthia Erivo
He does murder. Yes, he will. He. Yeah. He eventually sort of pushes the pressure on him because Pap tells Juicy, you must avenge my death. And Juicy doesn't know what the hell to do.
[51:24]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[51:24]
Cynthia Erivo
He doesn't think he can murder someone. Half of the play is him debating whether he can actually go through with it. It. Yeah, because he even says to Pappy, he's like. Do you mean, like, metaphorically kill him? He's like, no, I mean kill him. He's like. I mean, stab him in the throat. I don't wanna. And, like, starts it off with Teo, just hypothetically. Because Teo also sees Paps go. So we know that it's real.
[51:44]
Ariana Grande
Yes. He's the only one. Because when. Because when he comes back, Tedra doesn't see it.
[51:49]
Cynthia Erivo
Teacher doesn't see. Nobody sees Papa except for Tio. And. And that's interesting.
[51:53]
Ariana Grande
I didn't think about that.
[51:54]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. But it also makes sense in Hamlet, because in Hamlet, the only person, only people who see the ghost other than Hamlet are the guards. At the beginning.
[52:03]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[52:03]
Cynthia Erivo
And I guess Horatio, I guess, informs Hamlet because of the guards. But, like, Gertrude never sees the ghost. When Hamlet sees him in her bedroom, Claudius never sees him. It's. So there's the whole thing of people would say, like, oh, is Hamlet just mad? I'm like, well, if Hamlet were mad, we wouldn't have a scene establishing somebody else also seeing the ghost or thinking they see the ghost.
[52:22]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[52:23]
Cynthia Erivo
So we know that Juicy's not insane because Tio saw him as well. Or at least flashes of him.
[52:28]
Ariana Grande
Well, he said, it was your Pap. I saw your Pap.
[52:31]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And when he realized I wasn't you, he fled. So I love that. Yeah. Pap came on a mission also. I gotta say, I remember. I still remember to this day. And I was so happy to watch it again at, like, insider Library. Paps first real entrance. Because what they first do is, like, it's all normal, whatever. We have this little reading for Pap's photo to show that he's being memorialized as well as this other thing is happening. Tio's talking about porn. He's talking about something else. And then when Juicy goes off stage for a second, the lights change and a picnic tablecloth flies across the stage. Absolutely. And then Pap comes on stage covered in the tablecloth, and that's all we see. And he runs off when he realizes that Juicy's not there. And a couple minutes go by, more scene happens. And then Juicy's alone on stage. And it's like a sandbox or something on the floor. But Pap rises from the floor covered in the tablecloth. But he looks like. It's like when Freddy Krueger comes out of the bed sheet at the end of Nightmare on Elm Street.
[53:27]
Ariana Grande
Oh my. That's my favorite. One of my favorite moments in Nightmare on Elm Street.
[53:32]
Cynthia Erivo
But you know what I'm talking about. Like, it's almost like he's covered. Like he's like pushing through spandex or something.
[53:37]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[53:38]
Cynthia Erivo
Because the sheet is so tight, but yeah. Papa rises up through the floor and then rips off the. The. The cloth and it's just like a bundle of energy and his. And his gray suit is just smoking.
[53:51]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Yeah.
[53:52]
Cynthia Erivo
It's so good. But like, he's also filled with rage and filled with vengeance and like his. His desire for Juicy to eventually has nothing to do with affection for Juicy or like his bloodline. It's just Juicy is someone he. He thinks he can manipulate and overpower into doing what he wants.
[54:13]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. From the grave.
[54:14]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. I don't know if the play says that he chooses to haunt Juicy or if that's just what the afterlife has allowed him to haunt. But he does say he knows more about the afterlife and the rules of haunting more than Juicy does. Because Juicy tries to butt heads with him. But he's like, you do not get to tell me.
[54:32]
Ariana Grande
I've been dead a week. I got this.
[54:34]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. It's very Cynthia Erivo being like, don't tell me how to feel about the wicked.
[54:40]
Ariana Grande
Hot button issues.
[54:41]
Cynthia Erivo
Y. By the time this comes out, it'll be so over, it'll be nothing.
[54:45]
Ariana Grande
I think the movie will almost nothing now.
[54:47]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, it. It.
[54:48]
Ariana Grande
It really. I think it should be a non issue.
[54:50]
Cynthia Erivo
It should be. It's. We're. We're. We're leaving it alone.
[54:54]
Ariana Grande
I just.
[54:54]
Cynthia Erivo
It was a nice punchline.
[54:55]
Ariana Grande
It was a nice punchline. Sorry. So sorry. I elaborate on it, but.
[54:58]
Cynthia Erivo
No, please elaborate on it if you want. But I. I think it's just It's. It. The family dynamic is what keeps you from immediately judging Te. Then it's just. Just you get to hear about how Pap was a bully. You see Pap be a bully. Yeah. And then you're like, well, okay, so maybe like him and he was in prison for a while. So it's like you wonder, okay, maybe in some weird way like this was. This marriage to Rev is a long time coming of healing and release for Teedra and Rev. Rev at first seems like a fun guy. He, like, comes in all energy and positive vibes. It's when Juicy keeps trying to undermine it that we see that, oh, no, he is Pap's brother.
[55:40]
Ariana Grande
But also, also Rev makes a lot of remarks towards him.
[55:44]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, yeah.
[55:46]
Ariana Grande
Even though the whole family does, including the friends. Because even Rabbi has something to say.
[55:55]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, Rabbi has nothing but opinions.
[55:56]
Ariana Grande
Well, she's. That's another thing that I enjoyed about the, the. The play as well is their talk about religion.
[56:04]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[56:05]
Ariana Grande
And how religion is used to justify behavior. Like, there's a point where Tedra said something about marriages and how people just married each other in the Bible. And so there's nothing wrong with what she's doing. Yeah.
[56:19]
Cynthia Erivo
She goes, oh, you're all judging me for marrying my husband's brother so soon after he died. They did it in the Bible all the time.
[56:24]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. It's a very real thing that people do. You're always using that book to justify bad behavior.
[56:31]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Well, and in a way, Teedra is also very self aware because when she and Juicy have a bit of a heart to heart, they have two heart to hearts. The first one is, I think it's either right before Rev comes on stage or right after Rev and Juicy have their first sort of altercation. I know. It's after they have their first altercation.
[56:53]
Ariana Grande
It's just them, the two of them.
[56:54]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. It's the first time that it's when Rev hits him because his. Rev's like, oh, I'm gonna, you know, come on, Juicy, like, have a. Have a hit at me. Because Juicy's being a bit of a prick and doing, oh, yeah, the punching. And then. And then he punches him in the stomach and then goes off stage. And then Teacher's like. She's like, to be fair, honey, you were being annoying. And she loves her son and she will defend him as much as she can. But ultimately, what's most important to Teacher is being with somebody having a quote unquote protector. And she says so herself. Because Juicy's like, you ever want to be alone. She goes, no, I hate silence. She goes, I went from my father's house to your dad's house, and now I'm with Rev. Like, I. I need the comfort of chaos around me. It's what helps me sleep. I'm paraphrasing, but no, that's. Yeah.
[57:39]
Ariana Grande
People get comfortable with trauma.
[57:40]
Cynthia Erivo
The rest is silence, as a play called Hamlet once said.
[57:44]
Ariana Grande
Is that. Is that in Hamlet?
[57:45]
Cynthia Erivo
Isn't that in Hamlet? The rest is silence. I know it from hair as well, but I'm pretty sure that's from Hare. I don't know either from Hamlet.
[57:51]
Ariana Grande
I was gonna. I was gonna revisit Hamlet before. Before we did this, but I was.
[57:54]
Cynthia Erivo
Let me look this up.
[57:56]
Ariana Grande
I was busy this week.
[57:56]
Cynthia Erivo
This might be one of those cases where I was talking out of my ass and it didn't work in my favor this time.
[58:00]
Ariana Grande
I'll be amazed if it is. I don't remember that line at all.
[58:03]
Cynthia Erivo
The rest is silence. It is Hamlet.
[58:07]
Ariana Grande
Wow. Brava. Brava.
[58:10]
Cynthia Erivo
What am I, cultured? I love it so much.
[58:18]
Ariana Grande
That's very interesting. This is a very well crafted adaptation. It's not an adaptation.
[58:24]
Cynthia Erivo
No, I think calling it an adaptation is absolutely fair because the characters would not exist without Hamlet. The basic premise would not exist without Hamlet.
[58:32]
Ariana Grande
That's true.
[58:32]
Cynthia Erivo
Where it is not a direct adaptation is where James Iams is like, let me have fun. And also make this something more than just like, hey, fun spin. Like, I think this is where this differs from something like Fire island, let's say. Is it Fire island follows the movie Fire Island.
[58:47]
Ariana Grande
Oh, yeah. What does it follow?
[58:50]
Cynthia Erivo
Pride and Prejudice.
[58:51]
Ariana Grande
I didn't know that.
[58:53]
Cynthia Erivo
Have you read Pride and Prejudice?
[58:55]
Ariana Grande
Listen again.
[58:56]
Cynthia Erivo
You hate women.
[58:57]
Ariana Grande
I hate women. No, I have not. Actually, I did talk about that this week. Someone else. I did this. I filmed this movie this week that was set in 1912.
[59:06]
Cynthia Erivo
Humble brag.
[59:10]
Ariana Grande
Yes. And Pride and Prejudice came up for some reason, I don't remember. And I said, I've actually never. I've never read it. Never had to. So I don't know.
[59:19]
Cynthia Erivo
It never read it.
[59:21]
Ariana Grande
Never, never had to. So I didn't. It was on PBS every single week, and I changed the channel.
[59:27]
Cynthia Erivo
Jane Austen books are wonderful there. We have enough really amazing film adaptations of them that you actually don't ever have to read them.
[59:33]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[59:33]
Cynthia Erivo
Because they are. It takes you 100 pages to sync in with the language.
[59:39]
Ariana Grande
Got it.
[59:39]
Cynthia Erivo
And once you've done that, like, it flies by, but it takes that. Hundred pages, but yeah. Fire island is directly based off of Pride and Prejudice openly. So they even, like, make a reference to it early on. And they follows Pride and Prejudice pretty beat for beat.
[59:52]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[59:53]
Cynthia Erivo
And it's clever how Joel Kim booster can find ways to make it work for queer culture, but I also don't think that it elaborates beyond that. Whereas, like, Pride and Prejudice has a lot to say about the institution of marriage and also what it takes to fall in love. And it takes all different types and all different kinds of ways for love to flourish. Right. And for people to fall in love. And in order to properly fall in love, you do have to let go of your head a little bit and allow your heart a bit. But also, you can't let your heart be the only deciding factor.
[60:27]
Ariana Grande
Correct.
[60:29]
Cynthia Erivo
Fat Ham takes Hamlet to give it its basic premise, the majority of its structure, I would say. Not like it's not beat for beat the conflicts. Yeah, exactly. I think James Iams is like, okay, of this nine hour play, when do things actually happen? Great. These five things happened.
[60:47]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[60:48]
Cynthia Erivo
These five things will all be my play who are like my main characters. Great. And then goes from there and then makes them all different because, like, Larry is so different from Laertes.
[60:58]
Ariana Grande
100%.
[60:58]
Cynthia Erivo
Opal is so different from Ophelia.
[61:00]
Ariana Grande
Oh, my goodness, I love Opal.
[61:03]
Cynthia Erivo
What's not to love?
[61:05]
Ariana Grande
The. I. I don't remember. I. The production I watched with the Wilma. I remember her being as butch on Broadway.
[61:13]
Cynthia Erivo
She wasn't. She was pretty. Well, first of all, she shows up in the dress. Right. Like, that's the whole point is that she's in a dress and it's supposed to seem awkward. And it doesn't help that the actress who did it on Broadway was a very feminine, beautiful woman.
[61:24]
Ariana Grande
She's gorgeous.
[61:25]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. And she did not. No, you're right. She did not play it, but she mostly just played it over it and uncomfortable.
[61:32]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[61:33]
Cynthia Erivo
Because they gave her the dress with a hoodie and.
[61:35]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[61:36]
Cynthia Erivo
And I've just seen so many Tiffany girls in. In New York high schools do that same thing that I'm like, that's not reading like lesbian to me. That's reading Comfort.
[61:45]
Ariana Grande
Comfort. And I'm cold.
[61:46]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes, exactly.
[61:47]
Ariana Grande
The. The Wilma production. She had pants underneath.
[61:51]
Cynthia Erivo
Ah.
[61:52]
Ariana Grande
So I thought that was a really great. A great way to show that she. And then at the end she takes it off and good for her. Yeah, yeah.
[62:00]
Cynthia Erivo
No, I love that. I. Yeah. Because Opal is a lesbian. Juicy is gi. Opal and Larry are siblings. And the whole point of Opal is that she and Larry, like, Larry wants to always help their mother. Rabbi. Whereas Opal is always kind of trying.
[62:16]
Ariana Grande
To get away from her.
[62:18]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes, exactly. And the irony is that Rabbi is. Rabbi knows she has Larry's heart, so she doesn't ask Larry for things. She's trying to basically get Opal in line and also make her more like a girl. So she's always been like, opal, help me with this. And Larry's like, I'll help you. And she's like, I asked Opal.
[62:33]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That little B plot. I, I, I, I. It's a great expansion of the to be or not to be a phrase again, like, because there is that other cycle where parents don't let them. The kids do what the hell they want to do.
[62:46]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[62:46]
Ariana Grande
And breaking that cycle. And she. She forced her mother to break that cycle for her.
[62:52]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[62:52]
Ariana Grande
Which people don't always have the opportunity to do, like Larry.
[62:55]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Well, I think it's. It's the idea because there's the. There's so much talk of respect and especially of respecting your elders in the black community.
[63:03]
Ariana Grande
Absolutely.
[63:03]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[63:04]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[63:04]
Cynthia Erivo
But that's Thing. And also in the Jewish community.
[63:08]
Ariana Grande
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
[63:10]
Cynthia Erivo
I think we're gonna find some similarities today between you and I, Jason.
[63:13]
Ariana Grande
There are a lot of some. My, My friend Bobby and I talk about this all the time, how. How close our cultures are.
[63:21]
Cynthia Erivo
Who's Bobby?
[63:21]
Ariana Grande
Oh, you know Bobby. You know Bobby. Bobby. Bobby Underwood.
[63:24]
Cynthia Erivo
Bobby Underwood, yeah. Related to Carrie?
[63:27]
Ariana Grande
I don't believe so, but possible.
[63:29]
Cynthia Erivo
Possible. I, I did not know that you knew other Jewish boys. I thought. I thought I was the one.
[63:34]
Ariana Grande
You are the only. You know what? Today, you are the only Jewish boy that I know.
[63:39]
Cynthia Erivo
Jason. The idea of respecting your elders and also a family is the ultimate right. It's. It's like. Like it. It is what you always have, and it's what you always come back to, and it's what you always owe. Like, you always owe family. You. Like, you're gonna do it no matter what. No questions asked and juicy. Opal are from the generation of our. Essentially our generation. It's like they are the millennial Gen Z generation.
[64:07]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[64:07]
Cynthia Erivo
Of why.
[64:10]
Ariana Grande
Like, why are we doing this?
[64:11]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. And like, you want me to respect you acts in a way that's worthy of respect.
[64:15]
Ariana Grande
Yes. And that's the way it should be, I believe.
[64:18]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. There's.
[64:19]
Ariana Grande
Give it, get it.
[64:20]
Cynthia Erivo
Not to quote myself, but there's a line in my play that granted, I stole from my therapist at the time, Colton, which was that there's A difference between family and a relative. Family is someone who's there for you.
[64:35]
Ariana Grande
When you need them. Absolutely.
[64:36]
Cynthia Erivo
A relative is someone who shows up.
[64:38]
Ariana Grande
For you in a blood test or when someone dies.
[64:41]
Cynthia Erivo
Well, yes, but just more the idea of. Yeah, like, you can be family, quote unquote, because of your DNA, but you're not. You're more of a relative, and you can be a friend and be family.
[64:53]
Ariana Grande
I think gays, the gay community has really embraced that. Me, we. We are all about chosen family. I mean, I, I. My chosen family is. I think that is closer to me than my blood relatives at the moment. So, yeah, I'm just saying that Golden.
[65:09]
Cynthia Erivo
Girls lead the way.
[65:10]
Ariana Grande
Golden Girls, Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's another chosen family.
[65:14]
Cynthia Erivo
Golden Girls, Sex and the City. It's. It's. The Golden Girls is. You're my family. Sex and the City is. You guys are my soulmates. And. But I think there's something.
[65:21]
Ariana Grande
Lady.
[65:22]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. With the fifth lady.
[65:23]
Ariana Grande
Yeah, the fifth lady.
[65:24]
Cynthia Erivo
What fifth lady?
[65:25]
Ariana Grande
The fifth lady is the New York City. That's the. Remember, the last. Was the last episode of Sex and City where they're like, no, that's.
[65:32]
Cynthia Erivo
No, that's. That's the SNL skit making fun of Sex and the City.
[65:35]
Ariana Grande
No, it's in. It's in the show.
[65:37]
Cynthia Erivo
Are you sure?
[65:37]
Ariana Grande
Actually, actually. Because when I actually watched it, I'm.
[65:40]
Cynthia Erivo
Pretty sure it's Christina Aguilera as Samantha going, lady New York, you're the fifth whore at this table.
[65:45]
Ariana Grande
Because they said it in the show.
[65:46]
Cynthia Erivo
I don't think they do.
[65:47]
Ariana Grande
I'm. I'm almost positive they did.
[65:50]
Cynthia Erivo
I think someone incepted you.
[65:52]
Ariana Grande
Wait, Google that.
[65:53]
Cynthia Erivo
I don't want to. Right.
[65:54]
Ariana Grande
Okay. I. I don't. I don't. I could have been accepted. I don't fall asleep on planes.
[65:58]
Cynthia Erivo
You know what?
[65:58]
Ariana Grande
For that very reason.
[65:59]
Cynthia Erivo
I will go Google this as we take this next break.
[66:02]
Ariana Grande
All right, Billy, I beg to differ with you.
[66:03]
Cynthia Erivo
How do you mean?
[66:04]
Ariana Grande
You're the top.
[66:05]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[66:06]
Ariana Grande
You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Freddy.
[66:19]
Cynthia Erivo
And we're back. So we ultimately don't have a final answer on that question because Jason insists it was in the last season of Sex and the City. It might have been, but that would require us to go through every script of every episode of that season, and.
[66:30]
Ariana Grande
I ain't doing that.
[66:31]
Cynthia Erivo
No time for that.
[66:32]
Ariana Grande
We ain't doing it.
[66:33]
Cynthia Erivo
No. Not the season of the Russian.
[66:34]
Ariana Grande
My, my, my drunk Brain will just have to. My gin soaked brain will just have to think it remembers that.
[66:40]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. But chosen families. But I. I think you can look at Opal and Larry and Juicy and even Tio in a way as like a bit of a chosen family. Yeah.
[66:50]
Ariana Grande
I mean, to. To be honest, though, even Robbie is a part of their. Their family. Chosen family because they're. They're just friends.
[66:58]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. They are childhood friends because Rabbi and Teedra are. Are friends. Friends. And they. So they grew up together.
[67:04]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[67:05]
Cynthia Erivo
But Opal and Juicy understand each other in a way in adulthood that they have a better bond than Juicy ever had with his dad or his uncle and probably has, like, has a very special bond with his mom, but can be honest and healthier with Opal than he can with his own mother.
[67:22]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[67:23]
Cynthia Erivo
And, like, there's a level of trust that Larry has with his mom and with Opal, but also, like, because he recognizes a little bit of himself in Juicy. There is a chosen support system there. Right. And to is a cousin, but, like, we don't know what kind of cousin and cousins.
[67:39]
Ariana Grande
And I don't know how it works in the Jewish community, but in the black community, a cousin can be anybody.
[67:44]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes.
[67:44]
Ariana Grande
I grew up thinking people were my cousins, my actual blood cousins. And people were like, no. Yeah, you're not even blood related.
[67:50]
Cynthia Erivo
Well, so in the Broadway iteration, they added a line because it's not in the script and the printed script, I should say. But in Broadway, they added a line. We, Tio's talking about how hot Teedra is, and Juicy says, that's your aunt. Broadway. They added Tio going through marriage. And then there's a beat and Juicy goes, oh, right. What was I thinking?
[68:12]
Ariana Grande
That's funny.
[68:13]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. So you're absolutely correct. And the fact that that line isn't in the printed script, I think allows whatever production of Adam that happens to decide.
[68:22]
Ariana Grande
I love that James. There was an interview with, that I watched with James, and they talked about changing the words and things like that. He said, I don't mind, which I love. Yeah, I love that. I think that because this is now a baby that lives in the world and is growing up and is changing and will have a life, I think that things like that should happen more.
[68:41]
Cynthia Erivo
Absolutely. There's certain kind of writing where there is a specific rhythm and cadence.
[68:47]
Ariana Grande
Like a mammoth player.
[68:48]
Cynthia Erivo
Like a mammoth or a Sorkin. Like, they talk about a Sorkin all the time. Is. You do have to be word perfect. And it's not because of it. His ego. It's just because how it's written, there is a specific melody to it, and when you mess it up, the. Just. The flow doesn't work anymore. Something, like, something goes off.
[69:02]
Ariana Grande
Even in Camelot, they were doing walking talks.
[69:05]
Cynthia Erivo
They were doing walking slugs. I don't know that I.
[69:09]
Ariana Grande
That should never have happened.
[69:10]
Cynthia Erivo
I did not like that.
[69:12]
Ariana Grande
Camelot did not.
[69:13]
Cynthia Erivo
Camelot.
[69:14]
Ariana Grande
I don't live for Camelot to begin with. Yeah, but that production was not. That was not it.
[69:19]
Cynthia Erivo
It was not it. I've often called it camel toe. It's also. I think you'd also call it camelless. Like, it's just. It just wasn't. It was not the one. But I do have listeners who really love that production. And I don't want to yak theory. I'm too long.
[69:32]
Ariana Grande
No, no, not too long. But for me, in my life. In our lives.
[69:35]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes.
[69:36]
Ariana Grande
Not from. Not for us.
[69:37]
Cynthia Erivo
Pippa Sue's crushed red velvet dress. Stunning. Loved that dress.
[69:42]
Ariana Grande
Gorgeous gowns, beautiful gowns.
[69:44]
Cynthia Erivo
Or at least that one. I can't. I can't speak on the rest of her gowns, but that one was beautiful.
[69:50]
Ariana Grande
Yes, yes.
[69:51]
Cynthia Erivo
And Andrew Burnap wore those black pants. And Jordan Donica wanted you to believe he was a baritone, but Jordan Donica.
[69:57]
Ariana Grande
Could talk to me.
[69:59]
Cynthia Erivo
That man. No, that man has a beautiful voice, but he is a Barry tenor.
[70:01]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[70:02]
Cynthia Erivo
And because I heard him in My Fair Lady, I heard him in into the woods, and then I saw him in Camelot.
[70:06]
Ariana Grande
I'm like, into the Woods?
[70:08]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. He was an understudy at City center and actually went on for. No, no, he was. No, he was Rapunzel's prince at City Center. What am I saying? He was. He was Rapunzel's princess.
[70:18]
Ariana Grande
I saw it.
[70:19]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, that was him. No, because I was.
[70:21]
Ariana Grande
Oh, no. Okay, so.
[70:23]
Cynthia Erivo
Because. No, he was.
[70:24]
Ariana Grande
Someone was sick.
[70:25]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes, he was sick. I had the facts mixed up. He was Rapunzel's prince.
[70:31]
Ariana Grande
Jason went on. When I saw it.
[70:32]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. He got sick early in the encore's run. And Jason went on for, I think, the first week of the.
[70:36]
Ariana Grande
I didn't. I forgot about that because Jason did it. Well, Jason did the. Did Jason do the tour?
[70:41]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, Jason did everything. Does Jason listen to the podcast? No, he doesn't, but Jason did Rapunzel's Prince for the first week at Encores. Then Jordan came back, and that's when I saw Jordan do it. And then Jason was the understudy for both princes, I believe, as well as the Baker on Broadway.
[70:59]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[70:59]
Cynthia Erivo
And then it was Rapunzel's Prince on the road and understudied Cinderella's prince and the baker again, I believe, possibly Possible. Possible. Yeah.
[71:07]
Ariana Grande
He's so talented. We love Jason Forbach. I think he's the sweetest man on the planet.
[71:11]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, he's. He's. I love that. Yeah, yeah. He's. He's. He's good people.
[71:15]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[71:15]
Cynthia Erivo
And I'm excited to see him in.
[71:17]
Ariana Grande
Oh, another wonderful. I'm seeing that next week.
[71:19]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, amazing. No spoilers.
[71:21]
Ariana Grande
No spoilers whatsoever.
[71:24]
Cynthia Erivo
I'm gonna try to see it right before opening myself. But no, you know what show? There is no part for Jason Forbach in what Fat Ham.
[71:32]
Ariana Grande
Not one.
[71:33]
Cynthia Erivo
Not a single one.
[71:34]
Ariana Grande
No.
[71:35]
Cynthia Erivo
He can't even play the ham on the grill.
[71:40]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. It's a beautifully. You know, we love our black cast shows.
[71:44]
Cynthia Erivo
We really do.
[71:45]
Ariana Grande
It's quite nice.
[71:45]
Cynthia Erivo
We really do have them. But you're talking about the dialogue. And then. Because at the library, as I was watching it, like, they often they were pretty, like. I don't want to say letter perfect, but like, it was pretty close to it most of the time. But every now and then there would be a speech or a line where all the words were correct. That some things would be a little inverted and actually sometimes made the lines better just because in that moment how the actor was feeling. And from their energy, they would add a word here. Like a line would get shortened in a way, and it just fit. It all felt very natural. And that's sort of the point of fathom is that it is a very natural play. The theatricality of it is always a surprise because it pops up. It's never it that for me, I've always felt that Fat ham was a day in the life, except that every 30 minutes it reminds you that not only is it a play, but it's a play.
[72:38]
Ariana Grande
It's a play.
[72:39]
Cynthia Erivo
It's a play.
[72:41]
Ariana Grande
And they're playing.
[72:42]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, they are playing parts. They are playing typecasting of themselves. That's. I think that's the other thing is, like.
[72:48]
Ariana Grande
Which makes the ending work so well.
[72:50]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, well, because they're all leaning into the stereotypes of who they're told they are right for so much of that show and to see. So to get to the end where that all sort of gets stripped away is just so much fun. But so I feel like the ending and what it means and all that is something we should make sure we carve out a solid 20 minutes for. Or five minutes, whatever. However long it takes. What else is there in your notes that you want to discuss. Because you have notes.
[73:19]
Ariana Grande
I have notes. I just. I just wrote things down because I wasn't sure, you know, what we were going to talk about, so I just wrote, like, things I found that were interesting.
[73:26]
Cynthia Erivo
You and I do the exact same thing. It's just that I've now done this enough times that I write down the notes so my brain can remember, but I don't consult them anymore because I. They're there.
[73:34]
Ariana Grande
They're there. I wrote them down. Let's see. Oh, I love cycles of violence. We talked about that.
[73:48]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes, we did. Well, so think about then. Because you were talking about how when you rewatch it, knowing where it goes, how it actually sets the whole theme up better than you realize on first glance. Right.
[73:58]
Ariana Grande
Say that one more time, please.
[73:59]
Cynthia Erivo
You were talking earlier about how when you watch or read Fat Ham again, knowing how it ends.
[74:04]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[74:05]
Cynthia Erivo
That the play sets up that theme of stopping that cycle earlier and better than you realize.
[74:10]
Ariana Grande
Yes. Oh, the teal. Teal speech. I didn't even clock that the first time I saw it.
[74:16]
Cynthia Erivo
Well, but bookended. Because the first time is when Tio and Juicy both see Pap. Right?
[74:22]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[74:22]
Cynthia Erivo
And. And. And then Juicy's told by Pap, you know, avenge me. And then he and Tio are talking about. And Tio's talking about, like, the cycles of trauma and the cycles of violence, and he's like, I. I'm not going to do a To impression, but the whole point of. The whole point of Tio is that he doesn't seem eloquent. He doesn't seem deep.
[74:38]
Ariana Grande
I love that type of a character. I love. I love us the. The wise idiot.
[74:43]
Cynthia Erivo
It 1000% the wise fool.
[74:45]
Ariana Grande
The wise fool as much. Almost as much as I love a quack doctor. But that's a whole different type of advice.
[74:50]
Cynthia Erivo
Sure, sure, sure. But yeah, because Tio comes in with that bit of advice when you see, saying, I don't know what to do and all this stuff. And Tio's like, well, you know, you're like, your dad wants you to act this way because his dad wanted him to act this way and his dad acted that way because of his dad. Like, that's just sort of where we're at. He goes. And at some point, it does to, you know, know, make light of a Blake Lively movie. It ends with us. Yeah, you got. You have to be the one to end the carousel of. Of anger and violence and sadness going back to.
[75:20]
Ariana Grande
To be. To be.
[75:22]
Cynthia Erivo
Exactly. It is the question one might say.
[75:24]
Ariana Grande
Yeah, it is. I think There was a quote that James said something about to be. Or maybe I said this to be. I, I just wrote down. I didn't write any. Any name attached to it. I just said to be or not to be. To be or not to be is no longer the question.
[75:38]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[75:39]
Ariana Grande
Which you have. You either are or you aren't. Be yourself.
[75:42]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[75:43]
Ariana Grande
I think it's really great.
[75:44]
Cynthia Erivo
It's not to be or not to be. It's how to be.
[75:47]
Ariana Grande
How. Yes. How to be. How to be yourself.
[75:50]
Cynthia Erivo
Sometimes I go very deep. Like you can't even find my elbow right now.
[75:59]
Ariana Grande
Is that what that tattoo is for?
[76:03]
Cynthia Erivo
You know, I don't have a tattoo. It's frowned on in Jewish culture.
[76:06]
Ariana Grande
Is it?
[76:07]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. You're not. You're. Apparently you can't get buried in a Jewish cemetery if you have a tattoo.
[76:11]
Ariana Grande
I've knit. I didn't know that. Is it from something in the Torah that says you could. You can't like, mar your body?
[76:18]
Cynthia Erivo
Sure. Why not? I don't know. I just. It's been told enough to me. But also it could. That as far as I know, it's an old wives tale or it's a full online. My parents told me as a kid to make sure I didn't get a tattoo.
[76:28]
Ariana Grande
Wow.
[76:29]
Cynthia Erivo
But I just always believed it. I'm pretty sure it's true. I mean, I intend to get a tattoo at some point. Just. There are three.
[76:35]
Ariana Grande
Where would you get it?
[76:36]
Cynthia Erivo
On my wrist. There are three things that have to happen in my life. And I won't say what they are, but three things that have to happen in order for me to get a tattoo. Two are on the sad side. One is on the happy side. And so when one of those three things happens, if one of those three things happens, that's when I get it.
[76:49]
Ariana Grande
This trifecta. This trifecta that we're looking for now I know, right?
[76:53]
Cynthia Erivo
Well, the best things come in threes.
[76:55]
Ariana Grande
Do you have to go through a phantom toll booth or something like that for this all to happen?
[76:59]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, yeah. Did you not know about the Jewish phantom toll booth?
[77:02]
Ariana Grande
I didn't know about it.
[77:03]
Cynthia Erivo
They tell you you have to pay $1.50. Tackle them down to 75 cents.
[77:13]
Ariana Grande
Well done.
[77:15]
Cynthia Erivo
Thank you so much. Oh, actually, wait. I want to say this. This was a very juicy moment for me. This is me play acting as juicy. So Yom Kippur was recently. And do you know how Yom Kippur works?
[77:31]
Ariana Grande
Yom Kippur. Is that. Is that the fast?
[77:33]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. So I'm Again, I am not religious. My family for the most part is not relig. Have a couple of people who will attend temple. My mom likes to go to temple because she likes the community. But also. And we'll. And we'll connect this to fat ham as well. Because of religion, of the structure of it all and the community of it all and the needing answers of some sort. Right, okay. And sometimes it like really gives you clarity for your life, even if it's rooted in sometimes what you might describe a spaghetti monster in the sky telling you how the sea parted. But, but we were at the breakfast, which is at Yom Kippur. The whole point is that you are atoning for your sins. So you fast for like 24 to 36 hours. Sundown to sundown to sundown, something like that. Like, okay, sundown the night before to sundown the day after. And you're also supposed to like not go out. You're not supposed to shower. You're really supposed to just like sit in your stew and atone.
[78:27]
Ariana Grande
There's benefits to that.
[78:29]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, well, like, whereas Catholics, it's like I have all this, this shame all the time and I have to go and self flatulate. Exactly. Jews are like, no, no, 36 hours a year. You like just sit and stew in it and then you let go of it. So the break fast, literally breakfast is, is that night when the sun comes down and you eat again. And as I said, my family isn't terribly religious, but we do the gatherings for meals and whatnot. And breakfast is an easy go to. Because who doesn't want a bagel?
[78:57]
Ariana Grande
We love bagels.
[78:58]
Cynthia Erivo
And it was at my step grandmother's home and it was my family and her friends and there was enough of us and that we were separated by tables. So like her friends were in a dining room outside and we were in the dining room next to it.
[79:13]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[79:13]
Cynthia Erivo
Which makes it sound like she has two dining rooms. She doesn't. She has an actual dining room. And then she has like a hallway that she made a second dining room for her friends.
[79:19]
Ariana Grande
Oh, that's cool.
[79:20]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, it was very efficient. And so my table, it was me, my mom, my aunt, her second husband, my cousin and my. And both my grandmothers and.
[79:29]
Ariana Grande
Well, good for you.
[79:30]
Cynthia Erivo
There's still one is 101 is 93.
[79:33]
Ariana Grande
That's remarkable, ain't it?
[79:35]
Cynthia Erivo
And the hundred year old just saw Hills of California, that 2 hour 45 minute play.
[79:40]
Ariana Grande
Wow. She's a marathon runner.
[79:42]
Cynthia Erivo
She is. They're trying to hide her from the world. Because she keeps ignoring the doctors and the doctors. Like, we don't want the world to know that if you ignore her advice, you can still live to be 100. Point is, so. Oh, somebody asked me a question. Oh, Doug, my. My aunt's husband asked me a question, and I was chewing on something while he asked it, so I had to hold on for a second. And I'm chewing and chewing, and my Aunt Karen, just as we're waiting, she's like, oh, he's choking. And then I swallow, and I go. I only choke on command. And it got everyone good. It got everyone good. And I. And I didn't even make the connection until now. When I sat there, I was like, that's a juicy moment. That's something juicy would do at the barbecue.
[80:29]
Ariana Grande
It is to make everyone. Because it's the elephant in the room.
[80:34]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. That he's gay.
[80:35]
Ariana Grande
I mean, it happens with. I just saw my family. It's always the elephant in the room. And for whatever reason. Because why does my sexuality have anything to do with. With, you know, anything that.
[80:47]
Cynthia Erivo
I think that's the thing is ultimately the thing that differentiates you from anyone is your sexuality. And. And to everyone else, that means. It doesn't mean ship. It doesn't mean anything else other than just like. Well, that means that's what you do all the time, because it's the only difference. So you. It's all I can think of now.
[81:05]
Ariana Grande
I can't even get a date, so it's definitely not happening for me.
[81:09]
Cynthia Erivo
I am beating them away with my imaginary fan because I have imaginary suitors at my imaginary, imaginary door.
[81:16]
Ariana Grande
Oh, I love that. I love that. Are they, like, Pride and Prejudice suitors?
[81:20]
Cynthia Erivo
You don't know what that means? You haven't seen a minute.
[81:23]
Ariana Grande
I have no idea. But am I even partly right?
[81:26]
Cynthia Erivo
I mean, in the sense that you put words together that. All right. No, you're not. You're not wrong, but you're not correct.
[81:38]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[81:38]
Cynthia Erivo
Do you know what I mean?
[81:38]
Ariana Grande
I get it. I get it.
[81:39]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. You're in the country.
[81:40]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[81:41]
Cynthia Erivo
You're in the country.
[81:41]
Ariana Grande
It would work in an improv sketch. Maybe.
[81:43]
Cynthia Erivo
I don't actually know. You're. You're in the state, if not the county.
[81:45]
Ariana Grande
Oh, okay. Well, that's not far.
[81:46]
Cynthia Erivo
Exactly. You could drive.
[81:47]
Ariana Grande
Is it a big state? Is it, like, Montana? Or is it like. Or. Or is it like.
[81:51]
Cynthia Erivo
Is it like Montana?
[81:52]
Ariana Grande
It's like Montana. Or is it like Delaware or, like Rhode Island?
[81:57]
Cynthia Erivo
It's Maryland. It's wide, but she's thin.
[81:59]
Ariana Grande
We love Maryland.
[82:00]
Cynthia Erivo
Maryland. Yeah, but. But I think, yeah, it's. It's that. It's that, as you said, it's that elephant in the room of people, your sexuality makes them uncomfortable. Because all they. When they think of sexuality, all they think of is sex.
[82:11]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[82:12]
Cynthia Erivo
And a. It's sex that they don't know, thus that makes them uncomfortable. And then also, you don't want to think about sex with your family. But that's also. It's a double standard because it happens. Yeah, it happens. And listen, when people in your family get married and then everybody's asking about, oh, when are you gonna have babies?
[82:30]
Ariana Grande
You're asking about fucking.
[82:32]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. My best friend, she finally had her kid. Finally. And for like a year and a half into her marriage, her dad and mom would keep on, like, making these joking comments about when are they gonna have kids. And Sarah was telling me about it over dinner one night, like, oh, yeah, my dad was joking. Might be like sending us a bassinet to be like, get the hint, Derek? And I said, no, Sarah, I hate that. Because that is your father telling your husband, fuck my daughter raw until you come in her so it can result in a grandkid. And she goes, well, I don't think he's thinking about that. Like, but that's what it is.
[83:03]
Ariana Grande
That's what it is. And if you boil it down, and.
[83:06]
Cynthia Erivo
When I go into a room and just like, casually mention going on a date with a boy and everyone thinks about us fucking up the butt, then I'm sorry, I'm gonna say that till the cows come home, about how, you know, not just her parents, but any parent, when they talk about wanting grandkids and like, okay, yeah, just then just say, hey, child of mine who I raised from infancy to adulthood, please. Raw dog till it results in pregnancy, please get bread over and over again until it results in a goddamn skin nugget.
[83:33]
Ariana Grande
Until you get pregnant, until you get.
[83:35]
Cynthia Erivo
An overgrown Chia Pet sucking on your body.
[83:38]
Ariana Grande
There's parasites.
[83:40]
Cynthia Erivo
They are. I call them a titty sucking parasite, which is another line in my play. But.
[83:43]
Ariana Grande
Oh, wait, did you. That's the one that I did.
[83:46]
Cynthia Erivo
You stole that from me. Jason filmed a scene from my play for a thing thing. And yes, he got to say that line.
[83:53]
Ariana Grande
I got to say it out loud. Yeah, I'm like, that sounds very familiar.
[83:55]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, you are gonna go and make a titty sucking parasite.
[83:59]
Ariana Grande
But you are correct in that they.
[84:01]
Cynthia Erivo
Are a titty sucking parent. They get adorable for a while and then they start talking and then they stop being adorable.
[84:06]
Ariana Grande
That's the worst. When they start, like, talking, it's when they start talking back. Talking is fine. The da da da ga ga goo goo. Great, sure. But the. The don't talk to me that way. Oh, come on.
[84:18]
Cynthia Erivo
It's when they realize that their words have meaning and that they. And they can say certain things and will get a response.
[84:24]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[84:24]
Cynthia Erivo
Because that means they then think, oh, I'm smart now, and oh, I can, I can give it back now. No, no, we are not on the same level. I used to teach. I used to teach kids. I used to teach musical theater to kids between ages of 10 and 16. 16 year olds actually weren't too bad, but the 10 year olds were bad because they were on the brink of puberty and so they had enough intelligence to know what SAS was, if not necessarily do it well. And it happened every year with every class. There would get to be a point where they would get so snarky to me, thinking that they were like undermining me in any way. And I would. Every year I would turn around and I would go, I am sure that you are so smart for your age. I'm sure that you know how to read your classmates for filter. It's like, and maybe one day you will become smarter than me, but in this moment, I can tell you I am so much smarter than you. So do not bring rope to a knife fight.
[85:26]
Ariana Grande
Exactly.
[85:27]
Cynthia Erivo
I didn't. I would never say gun because I never wanted to bring that word into the classroom.
[85:31]
Ariana Grande
That's very considerate of you. I probably would have said gun.
[85:33]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, well, I would have said that for the teenagers.
[85:36]
Ariana Grande
I don't have much filter.
[85:37]
Cynthia Erivo
I don't usually have filter, but for kids it was more that, like, I wanted my points to come across, but I needed to not curse and I needed not to be sexual. And I didn't want to have anything remotely violent. I wanted it to be a statement that had no ulterior motives. And it would be tricky sometimes because those children get on my goddamn nerves.
[85:57]
Ariana Grande
But kids ruin everything.
[85:58]
Cynthia Erivo
They really do.
[85:59]
Ariana Grande
They do.
[86:00]
Cynthia Erivo
They ruin symphonies. They ruin bodies.
[86:04]
Ariana Grande
Is there a symphony of children?
[86:06]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, Whenever they have to. Whenever they sing at the Philharmonic. Child. Anytime a child's on my stage, I'm like, get off my stage. Get the fuck off. I. And there's no children in fathom. Thank God.
[86:19]
Ariana Grande
But there are no children. Well, they're grown.
[86:21]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. Well, yes.
[86:22]
Ariana Grande
They're 21.
[86:24]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Everyone's just a large child in this show, really, when you think about it.
[86:28]
Ariana Grande
I mean, isn't that what trauma does to you? It keeps.
[86:30]
Cynthia Erivo
Well, don't they? Teacher talks about what Juicy was like as a kid. Right. And how like he was cute basically until he started talking.
[86:38]
Ariana Grande
Facts are facts.
[86:40]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, well. And everyone always is talking about not only is he weird now, he was always weird. Then he actually speaking to what we were going on about when he and Opal were children. He, I guess the way he, he told Teetra whether Teedra and Rabbi are friends and that made Opal and Juicy friends. Or if Juicy and Opal met as kids and that made Rabi and teacher friends.
[87:03]
Ariana Grande
I think. Oh.
[87:05]
Cynthia Erivo
Because they talk about Juicy coming home from school at like the age of five or six and saying, I just met a girl, her name is Opal, she's my girlfriend.
[87:14]
Ariana Grande
That's a very real thing though, because parents, because they're probably like, oh, we should have a, you know, they probably use the word play date. Yeah, but. And then the parents are like, oh, we like each other too.
[87:23]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. I think that that's probably more likely what happened was that one rather than Teetra and, and, and Rabbi being friends, making everyone else friends. Yeah, but, yeah, even. And, but they talk about how, oh, Juicy tried to take one of teacher's earrings and turn into a wedding ring for Opal and all this stuff. And Rabbi talking about like, oh, he was such a player, a playboy as a kid. Such a player. To which Juicy's like, it's weird to talk about a six year old that.
[87:46]
Ariana Grande
I love that line.
[87:48]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[87:48]
Ariana Grande
Cuz it is.
[87:49]
Cynthia Erivo
It is weird.
[87:50]
Ariana Grande
Another, another, another like trauma. It's not really trauma thing, but like breaking a cycle thing. Like, why do parents do that? Same thing about you. Talking about your.
[88:01]
Cynthia Erivo
My best friends.
[88:03]
Ariana Grande
Yeah, it's the same thing.
[88:04]
Cynthia Erivo
Who are, by the way, are awesome people, but they just, they are guilty of what everyone's guilty of.
[88:08]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. And because their parents did it to them.
[88:10]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[88:11]
Ariana Grande
Do you have. I hate it. Well, I, I didn't hate it then. I didn't know what it was. It was very normal. But you come from school and they're like, oh, you have five girlfriends. Why are you asking me if I have a girlfriend if I'm four years old?
[88:21]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. What's so weird now is like, so for my life and my family, when I'm asked about dating, it's rare. And when it is, it's more just like, like, do you have a companion? Do you have someone around? Like, that would be really nice for you. Which is very sweet.
[88:37]
Ariana Grande
It's very sweet. They want. They want to make sure you're not alone.
[88:39]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. I. I hesitate to say that. That that's true of all straight couples. That when parents are asking about them or are you dating? It's like, I don't want you to be alone. It's like, well, I want you to get married and have a baby.
[88:51]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Yeah.
[88:52]
Cynthia Erivo
Perpetuate my bloodline.
[88:54]
Ariana Grande
Yep.
[88:55]
Cynthia Erivo
Avenge my existence. My DNA must continue. Because look at the prize that I am.
[89:03]
Ariana Grande
And there's always. There's always that thing that if you had a gay son or two gay children. I mean, look at. Ravi has two gay children.
[89:09]
Cynthia Erivo
She sure does. Oh, I want to talk about that scene.
[89:11]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. The two gay children. I remember someone saying that, like, there's no continuation after that. Like, that's the end of the.
[89:18]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[89:18]
Ariana Grande
Of that line. Which isn't true.
[89:20]
Cynthia Erivo
It's not true. That's why we have science, bitch.
[89:22]
Ariana Grande
That's why we have science. But also, some people don't want children. I mean, we're having a huge discussion about that in the country now.
[89:27]
Cynthia Erivo
Absolutely.
[89:28]
Ariana Grande
Some people do not want children.
[89:30]
Cynthia Erivo
People. And. And a lot of people are also saying, if I'm gonna have a child, I want to be able to take care of it. I don't want to have one.
[89:36]
Ariana Grande
And squalid. Because they grew up that way. Because, you know, they're the. There are a lot of Oops. Babies.
[89:41]
Cynthia Erivo
1,000%.
[89:42]
Ariana Grande
And those babies, it's. It's. It's a struggle.
[89:45]
Cynthia Erivo
I call them not on the itinerary. Baby. When people are like, oh, so you were a mistake or like an accident? I'm like, mistake. Let's not call that child a mistake until they grow up and we go, oh, you are a mistake.
[89:57]
Ariana Grande
You're a mistake.
[89:58]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Let's wait until they're formed and then we can decide if that. That was. If that ejaculation was a mistake.
[90:03]
Ariana Grande
That resentment. Ugh.
[90:04]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Not on the itinerary.
[90:06]
Ariana Grande
Not on the itinerary. Like. Like Audra's baby.
[90:09]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[90:09]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Sally was not on the itinerary.
[90:12]
Cynthia Erivo
She sure wasn't, baby.
[90:13]
Ariana Grande
She was caused by tap dancing.
[90:14]
Cynthia Erivo
Tap dancing. And perimenopause.
[90:18]
Ariana Grande
Perimenopause.
[90:19]
Cynthia Erivo
This is pre menopause.
[90:19]
Ariana Grande
Oh, okay.
[90:22]
Cynthia Erivo
I think that's the medical term.
[90:23]
Ariana Grande
Is it the medical term?
[90:24]
Cynthia Erivo
I think so.
[90:24]
Ariana Grande
I don't know how to read, so I haven't read any medical books.
[90:27]
Cynthia Erivo
Is that why you haven't read Pride and Prejudice?
[90:29]
Ariana Grande
It makes a. It makes sense now, doesn't it?
[90:31]
Cynthia Erivo
Everything falls into place.
[90:32]
Ariana Grande
Yeah, everything falls right if you talk to me long enough, if it makes sense.
[90:36]
Cynthia Erivo
I'm surprised I've spoken to you this long. I usually run out the door the moment I hit the hour.
[90:42]
Ariana Grande
Most times they leave, they run to come out, they run out the door, and they come back with pitchforks and. And torches.
[90:48]
Cynthia Erivo
Any episode I have that lasts longer than an hour is because I literally have handcuffed the guest to the chair.
[90:53]
Ariana Grande
Well, I didn't. I haven't moved my wrist in three hours, so.
[90:56]
Cynthia Erivo
Well, yes, that's because you had a very busy night last night.
[90:59]
Ariana Grande
You. Oh, my God. You know, I want to talk about last night. I still have a headache. Yeah, but imagine that didn't podcast.
[91:05]
Cynthia Erivo
Imagine fat him at the Eagle.
[91:08]
Ariana Grande
Listen, that production would sell pop, pop.
[91:11]
Cynthia Erivo
Pop up production at the. At the Eagle, baby. I would love that.
[91:14]
Ariana Grande
That. That new room would make a great place for.
[91:16]
Cynthia Erivo
For what new room?
[91:17]
Ariana Grande
The new extension that. Well, it's not. It's not new anymore. When's the last time you were there?
[91:22]
Cynthia Erivo
10 years ago. Oh, for all of five minutes.
[91:25]
Ariana Grande
Oh, my God. Yeah, so actually, I went to a. A. I had a party, a birthday party at City Winery. And the after party was at the Eagle around the corner, and they rented out this little. When you walk through the door and to the left, there used to be nothing, but they've. They've turned into another bar, and it's like an event space now. That's where Omari had their opening night.
[91:46]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, I know. Oh, I know. Yeah, I know. And if I had been at Omari's opening night, I absolutely would have gone to the Eagle.
[91:52]
Ariana Grande
I thought he was joking when I saw that in his speech. That's so funny.
[91:55]
Cynthia Erivo
Cole has never been funny in their entire life. I don't know. Why would you think they were making a joke? Joke now, why would you do that? Dumb. I want to get into the Larry Juicy scene, and Larry's as a character. Okay, before we do that, let us take another break.
[92:13]
Ariana Grande
Billy, I beg to differ with you.
[92:14]
Cynthia Erivo
How do you mean?
[92:15]
Ariana Grande
You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble thread of the.
[92:32]
Cynthia Erivo
And we're back. So we haven't really gone deep, deep into many of these characters. We've talked about Juicy. We've talked about Teatra sort of in general, and Rev and all that. But I want to. I think I want to kind of go a little deeper into Juicy through the microcosm of his scene with Larry. So Larry is Opal's brother. Brother, yes. And he's back from military.
[92:55]
Ariana Grande
Military, yeah. Yes. And he's like, I didn't kill anybody. Do we get a sense of what he was doing?
[93:01]
Cynthia Erivo
He. He was gone for, like, three years, Right. Something like that. And, I mean, he shows up in uniform.
[93:08]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[93:09]
Cynthia Erivo
Which he doesn't have to.
[93:09]
Ariana Grande
He didn't have to do it.
[93:10]
Cynthia Erivo
He did it because he wanted Juicy to see it.
[93:12]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[93:13]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[93:13]
Ariana Grande
It's kind of sweet.
[93:14]
Cynthia Erivo
It's very sweet.
[93:15]
Ariana Grande
We know these. We. We know these people.
[93:17]
Cynthia Erivo
The mo. I remember seeing it the moment Larry said, I wanted you to see me in the uniform. I was like, oh, they're gonna kiss later.
[93:24]
Ariana Grande
We know these people. Yeah.
[93:25]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. Yes. And then he tries to deflect be like, well, because I want you to. Did you see it? Because, like, it looks cool, right? I look cool. But, yeah, like, Juicy really kind of has a moment alone with Larry to not even like to hit on him or anything or have anything romantic. Just, like, he wants to talk about the idea of killing because as far as he knows, Larry is the only.
[93:45]
Ariana Grande
Person who has killed and knows how.
[93:47]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. And I think it's implied that Larry Hatch has. When he was away, he did kill somebody.
[93:53]
Ariana Grande
He mentions it.
[93:54]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. Because he's not unlike Opal, who Juicy also has a conversation about that with. And Opal's like, who you want to kill? Let me help.
[94:03]
Ariana Grande
I love Opal.
[94:04]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Like, Opal is tough. Opal is hard. Opal has all of this energy and this anger.
[94:10]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[94:11]
Cynthia Erivo
That she. I guess you could say she channels into that kind of.
[94:14]
Ariana Grande
Like, I. I also think it's because she's coming into herself. I think she. I think she's newly come to this realization, and.
[94:21]
Cynthia Erivo
And I think she's just sort of in a rebellious state in general.
[94:23]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. And she's of that age.
[94:25]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. And talks about how she wants, like, own a shooting range and. Right. Doesn't she talk about she wants to own a shooting range?
[94:32]
Ariana Grande
I don't remember that.
[94:32]
Cynthia Erivo
I could have sworn she. There was a moment where she said that. But, you know, Opal's very like, yeah, kill. But you're. You should. Like, you won't do it. You're too soft. But, like, I would totally help you. Yeah. And then Larry, who most likely has killed somebody, is like, why would you want to do that? Don't ever do that.
[94:47]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Because it ruins you.
[94:48]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. And is the first one to talk about Juicy's softness in a positive way and how he wishes that he could be soft. And I get very Joe Pitt vibes from Larry. As someone who has this Angels in America.
[95:03]
Ariana Grande
Oh.
[95:03]
Cynthia Erivo
Which I have to cover. Do that episode at some point. If I can find a guest who's brave enough to cover any of it.
[95:08]
Ariana Grande
It's a long. You can do both plays.
[95:10]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, yeah. It's gonna be a two parter.
[95:12]
Ariana Grande
Ooh. Jesus Christ.
[95:13]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, yeah. If everyone thought that Miss aigon was a long episode, baby. Five hour long, each part.
[95:22]
Ariana Grande
Oh my goodness.
[95:23]
Cynthia Erivo
But like. So I'm sure you've had experiences with repressed, semi closeted gay men.
[95:32]
Ariana Grande
I can't even count how many. Yes, yes, yes, I have.
[95:35]
Cynthia Erivo
You do not have enough appendages just to.
[95:37]
Ariana Grande
I don't have 5,001 body parts.
[95:40]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. More than that. More than that. But it's like it. I. I also have had my experiences both like fleeting and much more intimate and like. And humane and friendly and. And just like seeing it on a more. On a more intimate level.
[95:55]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[95:55]
Cynthia Erivo
Because I think it's easy to sort of just disregard and call people closet cases and pull a juicy of like, just say like, do it. Be like do the thing. But there's a lot to be said for someone who grew up a certain way being told of a certain way to live.
[96:11]
Ariana Grande
And also being in the military.
[96:12]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, yeah. So that not just upbringing, but then training and being in a culture that does not prioritize softness and queerness and then going into a line of work that prioritizes being hard and probably is. Is degrading to queerness.
[96:32]
Ariana Grande
It also doesn't promote individuality. So that's.
[96:35]
Cynthia Erivo
That's also true.
[96:36]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[96:37]
Cynthia Erivo
And. And, but also just this, this part of you that you have had for so long. Because he says to Juicy that even when they were kids and they would like go pee behind the house, they would have these like charged moments together.
[96:48]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[96:49]
Cynthia Erivo
Where they didn't know really what it was. But there was something about the closeness with each other and also being just physically open in that moment that it wasn't sexual because they were too young for it to be sexual. But there was a. There was a charge.
[97:01]
Ariana Grande
There was a magnetism.
[97:03]
Cynthia Erivo
Exactly. And I think as we don't know when Juicy came out, we don't know when Larry realized. But at some point Juicy did come out and Larry did realize what was going on with him and probably always looked at Juicy with admiration and envy of.
[97:22]
Ariana Grande
He's able to be free.
[97:23]
Cynthia Erivo
Exactly.
[97:23]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[97:24]
Cynthia Erivo
And at what point do you allow yourself to be free when you keep perpetuating a certain narrative about yourself.
[97:31]
Ariana Grande
But it was. I, I think that's something that's. That Larry is comfortable in because his. I think his mother didn't allow him to be individual. And I think going into the army was a. Was like running into from, you know, from one bad situation to another. Well, not bad, but familiar situation to another.
[97:51]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, I think a structured situation to another structured situation.
[97:54]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[97:55]
Cynthia Erivo
Because Rabi loves her kids.
[97:57]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[97:57]
Cynthia Erivo
Her biggest crime is she wants them to fit into the mold that makes sense to her.
[98:02]
Ariana Grande
Well, she tells. She's like, I. She. She laid out what she wanted for her children. She wanted Opal to do what she wanted to do. I can't remember.
[98:11]
Cynthia Erivo
Everyone wants Opal's go into human resources, which is hilarious because that is exactly what Juicy is going to school. School for it. And I also love the running joke that Juicy. So Juicy's in school? Yeah, Online at the University of Phoenix. And everybody's always making jokes about how University of Phoenix is a scam. College in general is a scam. You're not even going, like, to. In person classes. You're online. And one of my favorite lines, it's. I. I can't pull it up on. On the, on in the script right here, because I would need to find the exact moment. But I just. It's not even the setup there. It's. It's Rabbi, Juicy, Opal, and I think Larry as well, and they're all sort of fighting about whatever, and Rabbi's, like, just so confused by her kids. And I think it's. Opal says something about, like, you know, be more like Juicy or whatever. And Rabi goes, juicy goes to school on his phone.
[99:01]
Ariana Grande
On cell phone, yeah. Juicy goes a desktop.
[99:05]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, Juicy goes on desktop, which is one of my favorite. Jesse goes to school on his cell phone.
[99:12]
Ariana Grande
Doesn't his dead dad make a comment about.
[99:14]
Cynthia Erivo
They all make comments about it. I don't. I'm not sure. No, I think Pat makes comments because Juicy is using big words at some point in one of his confrontations.
[99:23]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[99:24]
Cynthia Erivo
And he's like, oh, you think you're better than me because you're going to school? He's like, you're not even going to school. You're going to fucking online school.
[99:30]
Ariana Grande
What a slam for a ghost to read you like that. I live for it.
[99:35]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. You think you're better than me because you clicked a button. He's like, you're not in school. You're in a chat room. Well, like. And, But. And yet it's the resources that Juicy has to better Himself. Which is nothing to scoff at. It's more that Juicy's annoying about it.
[99:51]
Ariana Grande
Yes. And he thinks he's better than.
[99:52]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. It's like, it's. It's one of those wonderful catch 22s. And what makes, I think Fat Ham a wonderful play is that everybody is a little bit of something. Something juicy can be morally in the right about a lot of things and still be a shit.
[100:05]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[100:07]
Cynthia Erivo
You know, Rev can be a douche who also, like, is ultimately trying to keep the party and vibe light and really is more sort of a. I will only bite if you come at me.
[100:18]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[100:19]
Cynthia Erivo
And he bites and he bites. And we need to see that because we see that it like he is not a sweet and loving person generally. Generally speaking, he has. He has an anger and he has a violence within him. And you see it when he gets provoked.
[100:34]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[100:36]
Cynthia Erivo
So obviously it's. It's not serial killer s. But like it. Is that a mask coming off? Like he does actively try to keep things on the up and up. It's when you poke the bear.
[100:46]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[100:47]
Cynthia Erivo
And Teedra has a lot of bath mat issues, literally. Because they just redid their bathroom. But like she's a bit of a bath mat or a doormat, one might say. But she is a self aware doormat. She's very aware of who she is and what her situation is. And she chooses it.
[101:02]
Ariana Grande
It feels like she. She is a. She grew up. Well, she grew up in a busy house.
[101:08]
Cynthia Erivo
Loud.
[101:09]
Ariana Grande
Loud house.
[101:10]
Cynthia Erivo
Loud house. Yes. I know what that's like, but I sure do. Yeah, it's. It's actually speaking of the Lachiusi musical today, this was. It's an argument as old as time in terms of feminism. Right. Of feminism is about choice. And you don't get to shame a woman for choosing something that maybe is not going into business, like getting married, being a stay at home mom. Like that is what autonomy is.
[101:36]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[101:36]
Cynthia Erivo
And I think that that is what makes Teedra a fascinating character is that she has autonomy. She's using it to be a domestic, not even partner. Like semi servant.
[101:51]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. She helps with the restaurant.
[101:53]
Cynthia Erivo
She helps. I don't think she helps at the restaurant, does she? She's. She's. She's aware of everything that happens.
[101:59]
Ariana Grande
Well, because doesn't she bring up the fact that the chain wants to buy it?
[102:03]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Well, I think since Pap died, she probably has his share in the restaurant.
[102:07]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[102:08]
Cynthia Erivo
But as far as I can tell in the script, she doesn't have a job there. I think it's just one of those things where like it's a family owned establishment. So like she's in and out. She knows the employees, she. She's told of the goings on. She knows all the business stuff. But I don't think she's like involved. Yeah. She's not the accountant, she's not a manager. She's not even a hostess.
[102:26]
Ariana Grande
And I mean, maybe that's how she was told to be.
[102:29]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. I mean, think about this way. Like, did Juicy have a job at the restaurant? I don't think so.
[102:34]
Ariana Grande
I highly doubt he would want to.
[102:35]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, well, they probably didn't want him there. He didn't want to be there. And that us. Did Juicy ever have a job? Did you see. Just go to high school and now does online college.
[102:44]
Ariana Grande
Did they.
[102:45]
Cynthia Erivo
They.
[102:45]
Ariana Grande
They don't butcher the pigs near the In. In that they only Rev butchers pigs.
[102:51]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes.
[102:52]
Ariana Grande
It's not part of the restaurant at all.
[102:53]
Cynthia Erivo
That is. That is sort of it. The implication is that Pap was in charge of the cooking and Rev was in charge of the butchering. Yes, exactly. Make sure that the meat was good.
[103:02]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[103:03]
Cynthia Erivo
And when Pap went off to prison, Rev took over. And it is implied that business slowed down once Rev took over.
[103:12]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[103:12]
Cynthia Erivo
Although he claims it's not because of the quality of the food. It's because people knew Pap and they didn't know him as well.
[103:18]
Ariana Grande
Correct.
[103:19]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. But yes, Teedra does mention the chain that wants to buy the restaurant, which would be nice because they spent all of Juicy's college.
[103:27]
Ariana Grande
Oh my God. Yeah.
[103:28]
Cynthia Erivo
To redo their bathroom and a wedding. To which teacher apologizes and then says, but honey, college is a scam anyway. You're better off. Jay goes to school on his cell phone. God. Rabbi might be the secret weapon of this play.
[103:49]
Ariana Grande
Robbie. Robbie.
[103:50]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[103:50]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. She's. She has a lot of zingers.
[103:52]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. But so with. So Larry and J. Yeah. That scene. What. What are your feelings on that scene?
[103:57]
Ariana Grande
I feel like I've had that. Those moments. It was very real. I loved when he asked him to touch. Just to touch his leg.
[104:07]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[104:07]
Ariana Grande
Just to have some sort of. It oddly reminded me even though it's a different subject matter. Moonlight.
[104:17]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[104:18]
Ariana Grande
When he. When he says, you're the only person who. What was that last line that he says from Moonlight? Yeah.
[104:24]
Cynthia Erivo
I only saw the ones.
[104:25]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Anyway, there's that long line the line says about touch. I can talk. The line he says about touch reminded me of that in some way. But it's. It was nice to See him kind of be human for a moment. I feel like Larry. That's something that's very anathema to his. How he was raised and how he operates in. In life.
[104:49]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[104:50]
Ariana Grande
To. To ask, to touch, to be intimate. Do you think that Larry had any relationship. Any good relations with girls?
[104:57]
Cynthia Erivo
Define good. Like sexually successful.
[105:00]
Ariana Grande
Sexually.
[105:01]
Cynthia Erivo
Sexually successful. Sexually fulfilling. No.
[105:03]
Ariana Grande
Intimate. Intimate wise. Maybe not. He probably has. I reckon he's not even been in a relationship before.
[105:11]
Cynthia Erivo
Probably not. The actor who did it on Broadway played him very stoic. Not cold, but just very reserved. The. The whole awkward. And has a secret. Very much was at the. The forefront of his performance.
[105:24]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[105:24]
Cynthia Erivo
And you could buy that he was somebody who didn't have a relationship because he was just going through so much turmoil underneath the surface.
[105:34]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[105:34]
Cynthia Erivo
And just couldn't. I'm sure when he was in the military, guys tried to set him up all the time and it failed.
[105:40]
Ariana Grande
Yeah, it's. And we always think that men turn to other men in. In the military anyway, so that's actually an interesting.
[105:48]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, there's a whole bunch of stories about that. It's. I feel like with Larry, it's the. He can't bring himself to fully admit who he is, but he also can't bring himself to fully commit to the costume. You know what I mean?
[106:03]
Ariana Grande
Wow. But he's never been given the opportunity. The costume.
[106:08]
Cynthia Erivo
I think he has.
[106:09]
Ariana Grande
Well, I think it's more than he. I think when you. When you. When you tell people who they need to be for so long, they lose who they could be.
[106:19]
Cynthia Erivo
And I think he also projects of how everyone's gonna react, because the truth is that the reaction isn't bad.
[106:24]
Ariana Grande
When eventually it isn't bad, but it isn't bad. I love. That was Opal that says that he should say it.
[106:33]
Cynthia Erivo
No, what it is is that he and Juicy have their thing and they almost kiss.
[106:40]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[106:40]
Cynthia Erivo
And then he runs inside and that is when Juicy does whatever.
[106:43]
Ariana Grande
Everyone's around. And they could be caught.
[106:45]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, they could be caught at any moment. And almost goes for it. And then ultimately runs into the house. And I did watch this clip from the Wilma broadcast, the one from 2021. And it's a very honest, intimate. What a piece of work has been. Because they film it like a movie, but on Broadway. Marcel speaks. Marcel Spears literally shouts, what? And everybody laughs. And then he takes out the microphone that he's been holding onto since the karaoke scene scene and goes, what a piece of work is, man. Oh, no. What a piece. What a story. What a. What a piece of work. Is it well, or. So what piece of work is a man? I think is.
[107:24]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[107:24]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Because it's. It's. What a piece of work is. Man is the quote from Hamlet. But I believe they altered and fat him to what. What piece of work is a man?
[107:32]
Ariana Grande
That's funny.
[107:33]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[107:33]
Ariana Grande
It's so brilliant.
[107:35]
Cynthia Erivo
So good. I'm trying. I'm. I'm also just trying to find. Oh, yeah, sorry. Okay, I'm gonna need you to read Rabbi's line here down to the, to the punchline that we have.
[107:49]
Ariana Grande
Okay. Robbie, why can't you be more like Larry Opal? Because I ain't Larry. I don't want to be like Larry. I don't want to be. I don't want to be like you. I don't want to be like Teo. I don't want to be like Juicy. Rabbi Juicy go to school on his cell phone. Juicy. It's a desktop.
[108:10]
Cynthia Erivo
Juicy go to school on his cell phone. It's even better than we go. It's such a good life.
[108:24]
Ariana Grande
Listen, I love it, especially for it's hel. I wonder how much funnier it was during Pandemic because of where we were.
[108:33]
Cynthia Erivo
Sure, sure.
[108:33]
Ariana Grande
Because everyone was doing everything on their fucking cell phone.
[108:35]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. That's what makes that a great line, is that it fits in any context. Right. Like, it's, it's the, it's the minimal. The minimalizing. That's not the right word, but whatever. Minimizing. Minimizing.
[108:50]
Ariana Grande
Sure.
[108:50]
Cynthia Erivo
The minimizing of the effort of going to school, of the constant degrading of it. But then also. Yeah. Like, when you're doing lockdown, homeschooling, it's like, yeah, I'm. I'm going to school my goddamn iPhone.
[109:04]
Ariana Grande
Which some students did.
[109:05]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Juicy go to school on a cell phone.
[109:11]
Ariana Grande
No, but I, I, I think that the character of Larry is so. Well, I mean, James is a gay man. He. I know he's also had this experience. These experiences. But we all have had experiences with, with. I just had one a few weeks ago.
[109:27]
Cynthia Erivo
I talked to someone with a troubled man who.
[109:29]
Ariana Grande
He was not out. Okay, but. But totally living, you know, that double.
[109:34]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[109:35]
Ariana Grande
Life. Or afraid to be out.
[109:38]
Cynthia Erivo
Was this on the grind?
[109:39]
Ariana Grande
It was on the grind.
[109:41]
Cynthia Erivo
That's where they tend to be.
[109:42]
Ariana Grande
Yeah, but he was very open about it, and I was like, dude, actually.
[109:46]
Cynthia Erivo
I'll tell this story. Then two weeks ago, for the last couple weeks, I should say, there's a gentleman at my gym who had been aggressively Checking me out on the gym floor like I am somebody where I do not say check out unless it is so obvious.
[110:02]
Ariana Grande
Like, I see your eyeballs, like, focused on me.
[110:05]
Cynthia Erivo
Exactly. Because I. I'm terrible at knowing if someone's flirting with me, if someone's into me. Like, you have to be, hey, you.
[110:10]
Ariana Grande
Yes. Let's do this.
[110:11]
Cynthia Erivo
Exactly. And so this guy, for about two weeks, very much so. Like, always sizing me up. I think we talked once or twice in passing in the locker room. And then last week he ended up coming up to me and in the locker room as I was changing and just talking about whatever. And it was very clearly like, I want you to know that I'm human being and that I'm not a serial killer kind of way. So, like, we can go out and hook up.
[110:37]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[110:38]
Cynthia Erivo
That kind of thing. That's a move that a lot of people do of, like, we pass by each other a lot. And now I want you to see me as a. As a human and not a threat.
[110:47]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[110:47]
Cynthia Erivo
So that way we can go to pound disarming you. Exactly. And as I'm just about done getting dressed, he was like, oh, do you want to walk out together? Said, sure. As we're walking, oh, turns out we live close to each other. And he's like, oh, I should out totally. Come by one night for a drink and maybe some fun. And I said, well, you know, I live at my mom's and I don't know if that's totally appropriate. I'm allowed to have boys over if we're dating.
[111:14]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[111:15]
Cynthia Erivo
Not if it's a one night hookup.
[111:16]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[111:17]
Cynthia Erivo
Which I think is totally fair.
[111:18]
Ariana Grande
That's absolutely fair. Yeah. Because the revolving door in New York City is fast.
[111:23]
Cynthia Erivo
Especially when you look like I do, you know, Wrecked.
[111:27]
Ariana Grande
Correct. You look great. I like the glasses. Right now you're giving me like a little Rachel Maddow vibe.
[111:34]
Cynthia Erivo
Do you want to say a different person?
[111:36]
Ariana Grande
Oh, we don't like Rachel Maddow.
[111:39]
Cynthia Erivo
I look like a lesbian. I look like a power lesbian.
[111:44]
Ariana Grande
That's a masculine thing, isn't it?
[111:45]
Cynthia Erivo
Maybe I take it personally because my mom's hot for her. Well, you used to be hot for her. Okay. She said to me the other day, she's getting old, so I'm not into her as much.
[111:56]
Ariana Grande
That makes sense. That makes sense.
[111:58]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. My mom is a misogynist at heart. But so these glasses, by the way, they're blue lenses which I wear when I am editing on my computer all day long, so my eyes don't Go insane. But also, I got three hours of sleep last night, so my eyes were super irritated, and I wasn't gonna sit through a three hour Lucuzi musical rubbing my eyeballs, so. Exactly. The irony is that, like, my. The person I was closest to in that show didn't recognize me when we were. Because he never seen me with my glasses on. Yeah. He texted me. He was like, I had to run. Like, I couldn't find you. I was like, I was wearing glasses.
[112:32]
Ariana Grande
It's your Superman.
[112:33]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[112:34]
Ariana Grande
And you have the little. It's. It's. It's out now.
[112:37]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. He. He also texted me about Clark Kent. I was like, you and I both know I'm not. I'm not Clark Kent. But. But so the guy from the gym, I said, I'm at my mom's. I don't think I can do this. And I said to him, like, well, you know, you live apparently, like, a block away. You own your apartment. Like, we can always have a drink at your place some night. And he takes a beat and he goes, well, I don't think my wife would like that.
[113:00]
Ariana Grande
Wow. Wow.
[113:01]
Cynthia Erivo
Like, openly w. Wow. What did you think?
[113:04]
Ariana Grande
What do you think was gonna happen?
[113:05]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. How do you think I was gonna react? Yeah.
[113:08]
Ariana Grande
And how do you think it makes me feel?
[113:11]
Cynthia Erivo
And I, I. I already asked you about your experiences. I'll say, like, I've had experiences as well. I always get blindsided. I never know that they're, quote, unquote, straight or currently with a woman until later. Only once did it get deep in that respect. But that. For more on that, you have to watch my play, but.
[113:35]
Ariana Grande
Oh, we love that.
[113:36]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Well, it's great drama. It was a great story. But at the time when that happened, I was like, I can't believe this happened to me. And later on, a friend of mine and I were thinking about, like, certain experiences I had had. I was like, oh, now that I think about it, I've actually had quite a few men come on to me at the gym, where after we hook up, like, they vanish. Well, they don't know. They don't vanish. They say, I am with a woman. I have a wife. Or, like, I identify as straight. I'm like, you didn't 10 minutes ago.
[114:08]
Ariana Grande
It's the height. Because some people have that relationship where it's. It's. They can have dalliances.
[114:14]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[114:15]
Ariana Grande
Which is fine. But the ones who aren't allowed to are so. Are too good at having these affairs.
[114:23]
Cynthia Erivo
I think that's sort of the thing is it Always finds. It always finds a way. Right?
[114:27]
Ariana Grande
Life finds a way.
[114:29]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. The. The rub always finds a way of rubbing the ham finds a way to be fat no matter what you try and do. And I think ultimately that is sort of where the breaking point we're at with Larry in the play of you can hide, you can repress. Like, it always bubbles to the surface at some point. Same thing with trying to take your toxicity and your. Your emotions and just boil and bubble it all the way down. Like it will get at you one way or another. Maybe you don't act on. On your. Your rage or your sadness or your impulses and like, it physically takes a toll on you or you've tried to find a way to hide it and cheat in some ways, but, like, it always comes through. There's always a way where you get caught or like you can't handle what you're doing anymore. And you have to admit, you have to confess.
[115:12]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[115:13]
Cynthia Erivo
And I think the tragedy of Larry in the play, or at least in the brief, the brief pockets of tragedy that this play has.
[115:22]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Shoots through.
[115:24]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. Is that in a moment of vulnerability and security with Juicy of thinking it was a safe space when everyone else comes back out again and it's Ravi and Opal and Larry and Juicy. Juicy fighting against Rabi because Rabi's sort of coming at Juicy for being soft and weird and. And basically says like, well, before you come for me, come for your own son. Yeah. Look in your. Look in your.
[115:47]
Ariana Grande
He's gay too.
[115:48]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. He's like, look at your front yard.
[115:49]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[115:50]
Cynthia Erivo
It's very. Don't come for me unless I twirl for you, whatever. But. Yeah. And pretty much outs Larry and has.
[115:56]
Ariana Grande
And not blatantly out.
[115:58]
Cynthia Erivo
Well, he doesn't say the full words, but what he does is that he get. He says enough that. That Larry then has to say, yeah.
[116:05]
Ariana Grande
He let the genie on the bottle.
[116:07]
Cynthia Erivo
And he forces Larry like he's shouts at Larry, like, say it. You'll feel so much better.
[116:11]
Ariana Grande
So cruel.
[116:11]
Cynthia Erivo
It's so cruel. And when Larry. And Larry doesn't fully say the words, but he says enough that his mom understands.
[116:17]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[116:18]
Cynthia Erivo
She. Considering she's a God loving, very, very religious, very religious woman of the community that they're in. Takes it pretty well at. For, you know, for a first reaction.
[116:28]
Ariana Grande
Considering her because then we. Then we find her history.
[116:30]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. Well, and that's because of another straw that breaks the camel's back, which is. Which is Opal with terrible timing, but it's Larry having his Moment. And then slams Juicy's head on the table, man. And says, you talk about how everyone's so. Does all these things to you, but you can be cruel. That was not yours to share. You robbed me of my.
[116:50]
Ariana Grande
Of my moment. Yeah.
[116:51]
Cynthia Erivo
Of when I was ready to do it.
[116:53]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[116:53]
Cynthia Erivo
And I was. I. And Larry was gonna be ready, which is very real. Absolutely. He was on the brink of it. It. And that is. It's very real. And it's very true. Juicy. And then, of course, that sadness turns to laughter, because then Opal just shouts, mama, I like girls. Ravi's like, Robbie just goes, lord Jesus. And then takes a beat and says, another one of paper ladies. She goes, okay, so I guess this is what we're doing today. Truth time. Here we go. And then says her truth about her stripping, which then leads to the teal monologue. And we will talk about the teal monologue.
[117:31]
Ariana Grande
The teal monologue is so good.
[117:33]
Cynthia Erivo
We're gonna talk about that after this break.
[117:35]
Ariana Grande
Billy, I beg to differ with you.
[117:36]
Cynthia Erivo
How do you mean?
[117:37]
Ariana Grande
You're the top.
[117:38]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[117:39]
Ariana Grande
You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astag.
[117:51]
Cynthia Erivo
Jason.
[117:52]
Ariana Grande
Hi.
[117:54]
Cynthia Erivo
So Tio has a monologue.
[117:56]
Ariana Grande
I forgot about this monologue.
[117:58]
Cynthia Erivo
So did I.
[117:59]
Ariana Grande
And I said, why? Why am I not doing this monologue?
[118:04]
Cynthia Erivo
Why are we not all doing this monologue?
[118:06]
Ariana Grande
It's so. It's.
[118:09]
Cynthia Erivo
You know, it's wild.
[118:11]
Ariana Grande
Some person out there running for president right now talks about a weave. This monologue is a weave, but it's fucking brilliant.
[118:17]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, it is. Absolutely. Skating through the patches and finding a destination. So Tio, who has not been on stage from the majority of this play, he left early and then came back to get.
[118:31]
Ariana Grande
He went and got something, didn't he?
[118:33]
Cynthia Erivo
I remember if he went to get something when he came back with new shoes, because who's the skeleton in Hamlet?
[118:42]
Ariana Grande
Urek.
[118:43]
Cynthia Erivo
Urik.
[118:43]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Yeah.
[118:44]
Cynthia Erivo
He's like, yeah, you know our friend Urik? The guy was so much older than us at school. Yeah. He's dead now. His mom's selling his shit. Here are his shoes. It's great. It's so fun.
[118:51]
Ariana Grande
So good.
[118:52]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, but. So all this stuff is happening around him, all the announcements and whatnot, and then becomes like, anybody else has something to share? And Teo just go. Is like, yeah, I got something to share. He's like, I don't know. Who needs to hear this, but I have an epiphany and Just goes on this. How would you describe it? Diatribe.
[119:08]
Ariana Grande
It's the wildest analogy. He talks about fucking a frog.
[119:15]
Cynthia Erivo
No, gingerbread man.
[119:17]
Ariana Grande
A gingerbread man. That's what it is. And the arms and. And coming and the frosting and all this stuff. It's. It's.
[119:24]
Cynthia Erivo
It never goes where you expect it to go. Because first it starts off with. He's talking about how he plays this video game where you. Where you blow off the arms of gingerbread men who also are, like, trying to attack you. Because it's a. It's a violent video game.
[119:37]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[119:38]
Cynthia Erivo
And he does it while he gets high. And one day, he gets so high that all sudden, he's noticing that the gingerbread man is staring at him and comes up to him and touches him with his broken off arm.
[119:49]
Ariana Grande
And he's super high and super high.
[119:51]
Cynthia Erivo
And he's not sure, like, how much of this is the weed, how much of this is his own subconscious, because what ultimate. What's the first step to intimacy is? The gingerbread man basically, is like, you look sad and troubled. Why is that? And Tio's like. And I can't give an answer. Which makes me even sadder. Like, I just am sad, which is inherited trauma. But also, I also saw this meme about how when there's a death in the world that nobody's mourning, the sadness carries over to one random stranger in the world. Which is why, like, sometimes you have a full day of melancholy and you don't know why is that? You are secretly mourning the death of someone who isn't being mourned.
[120:25]
Ariana Grande
Whoa.
[120:26]
Cynthia Erivo
I mean, listen. Most likely total bullshit. But also, I.
[120:30]
Ariana Grande
No, no, I believe that because that's just energy.
[120:33]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[120:35]
Ariana Grande
Because their days where I'm like, I don't know why I'm feeling this way today.
[120:38]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[120:39]
Ariana Grande
I believe that.
[120:39]
Cynthia Erivo
I've had many of them.
[120:40]
Ariana Grande
I believe it.
[120:41]
Cynthia Erivo
I think. I think a lot of sad, lost souls come to me to be mourned because they know that I will feel sad for them all day long.
[120:47]
Ariana Grande
Oh, you're an empath. Like Juicy.
[120:49]
Cynthia Erivo
Like Juicy. Yes. Juicy is an empath. He says as much. He shouts as much.
[120:55]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[120:56]
Cynthia Erivo
But, yeah, so he's talking about the gingerbread man, and he says, like, all of a sudden, I realized the gingerbread man, red man, is looking at me, asking why I'm sad. I don't know why. He goes. It's like. And then he kisses me, and you're like, gingerbread man. I like gingerbread ladies, but I'm not gonna Lie. It feels kind of good.
[121:13]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[121:13]
Cynthia Erivo
So I let it happen. He's like. And then he moves south. And I'm like, gingerbread man. I like Felicia. I like gingerbread lady fellatio. It's like. But again, it feels good. I think he says it's. It feels like rubbing up in a warm batter. A warm batter of cookie dough. He's like, and then it feels so good, you splash frosting all over his gingerbread man face. And then you start having this epiphany of what the world could be and how there could be this idealistic utopia where everything is equal and everything is balanced and everyone is open and goes. Which is an amazing realism to have five seconds after you come.
[121:51]
Ariana Grande
Yeah, but actually, that is what happens when you become.
[121:54]
Cynthia Erivo
Everything gets very clear all of a sudden.
[121:56]
Ariana Grande
I mean, the come. Clarity is real.
[121:58]
Cynthia Erivo
There is a joke about that in don't trust the bitch in apartment 23. It's one of my favorite jokes they have where she's like, I always do my. She's like, I always have my best epiphanies after sex. And they show a montage of her throwing the guy off of her after she's clowned. So, like, she. Like, she. She has sex, throws the guy off of her. She goes, I left my lunch. It's like. She goes, oh, lost was purgatory. Aioli is just manic.
[122:21]
Ariana Grande
I never watched that show. That's very funny.
[122:23]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, so good. It's on Netflix. I left my Burberry coat in the luggage room at the Gansevort. It really clears my head. It makes everything make sense. Much like Elise in First Wise Club and Exercise. But he's talking about this epiphany and this clarity. And he's like. And I know that in my perfect world, they're gonna be a lot more gingerbread man blowjobs. And we laugh because it's all random and silly, but he basically says. Says, what if you chose pleasure over violence?
[122:47]
Ariana Grande
I wrote that down. I wrote that quote down, save for.
[122:49]
Cynthia Erivo
The kids in the back.
[122:50]
Ariana Grande
The. The actual quote, I think I. It's towards the end, right?
[122:55]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, it's definitely third act.
[122:58]
Ariana Grande
Oh, yeah. Choosing. Choosing pleasure over harm. Why waste life being miserable to make someone happy. What a great line.
[123:12]
Cynthia Erivo
What a wonderful line. And that applies in so many different ways. It's not just. Again, not literal violence. Sometimes it's making yourself small so someone else can feel big. Sometimes it's carrying someone else's pain so they can feel remembered because they asked. Juicy's always asked, like, why are you mourning your dad? He was a shit to you. And he's like, I don't know. I just feel like I have to.
[123:33]
Ariana Grande
Obligation.
[123:33]
Cynthia Erivo
Obligation. And ultimately it all culminates in the end. So we have, first of all, we have our game of charades, which is a reference to Hamlet. When they do the play, speak the.
[123:46]
Ariana Grande
Speech and he does the monologue.
[123:48]
Cynthia Erivo
He does the monologue.
[123:49]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[123:49]
Cynthia Erivo
And he does the charades of the cook killed the. Sorry, the preacher killed the cook.
[123:53]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[123:54]
Cynthia Erivo
Because it's the whole bunch of charades is, you know, it's. It's books, movies, tv, whatever. And they do a movie. They do do the right thing. And then Juicy goes up and goes book. And Ravi just shouts, who put a book in there? I thought this was movies and celebrities.
[124:14]
Ariana Grande
I'm just thinking about this now. It's kind of bold for them to not in that scene, to not have Teidra say the lady death protest too much.
[124:23]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
[124:24]
Ariana Grande
To find a way to say that it's a little bold.
[124:26]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, that's true.
[124:27]
Ariana Grande
It's such an iconic line for that scene.
[124:29]
Cynthia Erivo
It does. It's such an amazing line. Yeah, but they, I think they don't have it because they don't need it.
[124:33]
Ariana Grande
They don't need it. They don't need it. But it's interesting that they didn't try and. And put it in there somewhere.
[124:37]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. But I think ultimately all of every. Yeah, I think every line teacher has and for most of the play is just the lady doth protest too much. Everything she says is just that.
[124:50]
Ariana Grande
Okay. She's.
[124:51]
Cynthia Erivo
It's her always on the defense and making excuses for why she's in the way she is. And even her karaoke performance. Performance is like an over performing.
[125:00]
Ariana Grande
Oh my goodness.
[125:00]
Cynthia Erivo
It's an over performative way of like, we're so in love. We're so hot for each other. Everything's great.
[125:04]
Ariana Grande
And we all know that women.
[125:05]
Cynthia Erivo
We all know that.
[125:06]
Ariana Grande
Yeah, all the person doesn't have to be. Well, yeah, that person.
[125:08]
Cynthia Erivo
Well, we all know the couple that has to prove to everyone that they're better than ever on their.
[125:14]
Ariana Grande
On their socials, on their everything. Always talking about the. Their man. It's always a red flag.
[125:21]
Cynthia Erivo
And this is. And this is their wedding day. They just got married. And she is doing a karaoke number where she is basically opening up her vagina lips to him in front of everyone, grinding on his lap. They are on the brink of to.
[125:34]
Ariana Grande
Anita Hill is Anita. No, Anita Hill is not that singer. No, Anita something Freak. I'll be a freak. Until the day, until the dawn.
[125:43]
Cynthia Erivo
It's. It's something with love.
[125:46]
Ariana Grande
Anita. It's. I remember when the song came out.
[125:49]
Cynthia Erivo
I'll find it. I'll find it.
[125:50]
Ariana Grande
Anita something.
[125:52]
Cynthia Erivo
It's. Sorry, I'm still looking.
[125:56]
Ariana Grande
No, I need a name. Anita.
[126:00]
Cynthia Erivo
God damn it. Okay, so that's Creep. She. Teedra is singing. Crystal Waters is 100% pure love.
[126:15]
Ariana Grande
Oh, that's what she's singing in the Wilmore production. They do freak.
[126:18]
Cynthia Erivo
Okay.
[126:18]
Ariana Grande
Freak like me.
[126:19]
Cynthia Erivo
Okay.
[126:20]
Ariana Grande
Oh, forgot. Yes, you're right. You're right.
[126:22]
Cynthia Erivo
On Broadway. And in the script.
[126:23]
Ariana Grande
I remember. I remember that now. I live for that.
[126:25]
Cynthia Erivo
But. But the idea of. It's. It's their wedding day and they're. Everyone's there to celebrate their love. They are. Everyone is there signing the agreement of. We all believe you two are happy. You don't have to do anything more.
[126:37]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[126:37]
Cynthia Erivo
So if that is how you are on that day, like. Sorry. There is something rotten at the core. Something rotten in the state of Denmark. One might say.
[126:44]
Ariana Grande
Yes. Very well placed. Played.
[126:45]
Cynthia Erivo
Thank you so much, Pride and Prejudice.
[126:48]
Ariana Grande
But no idea.
[126:49]
Cynthia Erivo
No, no. Couldn't tell you or.
[126:50]
Ariana Grande
Couldn't tell you a thing.
[126:51]
Cynthia Erivo
Couldn't tell you something about. And marriage. That's all I know.
[126:55]
Ariana Grande
That's all I know. I should. You know which one I should read? I should read the one with the. The zombies.
[127:00]
Cynthia Erivo
Pride of Prejudice and Zombies. No, you don't. No, don't read it.
[127:02]
Ariana Grande
It's. It. It's. It's for me.
[127:04]
Cynthia Erivo
Just watch the Cure and nightly Pride and Prejudice. You'll be fine.
[127:07]
Ariana Grande
Okay?
[127:07]
Cynthia Erivo
You'll be. You'll be so fine.
[127:09]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[127:09]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. You'll be Golden Pony Boy.
[127:10]
Ariana Grande
I'm scared. Scared.
[127:11]
Cynthia Erivo
Don't be scared. Karen Knightley is a Dom top. She'll guide you nicely.
[127:15]
Ariana Grande
We do love a Dom top.
[127:16]
Cynthia Erivo
Well, actually, she's not a Dom top. She's a gentle top.
[127:19]
Ariana Grande
A soft top.
[127:19]
Cynthia Erivo
A soft top.
[127:20]
Ariana Grande
As one would say.
[127:21]
Cynthia Erivo
She's a blouse.
[127:22]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Yeah.
[127:23]
Cynthia Erivo
She's a feminine top.
[127:24]
Ariana Grande
God bless the soft tops in this world.
[127:26]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. We need more Keira Knightley's in this world.
[127:28]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[127:28]
Cynthia Erivo
To guide us through the butt sex.
[127:31]
Ariana Grande
Because people are just ripping colons out of people's asses.
[127:35]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. You don't want a Rosamund pike who's just gonna go in without prepping you. You need a Kieran Knightley who understands foreplay.
[127:41]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Oh, Jesus, everyone. We had classes on foreplay.
[127:45]
Cynthia Erivo
I'm gonna do. Yeah. We need to write a whole TV show. It's just about foreplay because the body just doesn't.
[127:51]
Ariana Grande
Just doesn't. Not everyone. The power bottom.
[127:54]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Not well. And even the power bottoms, they spend like all this time away from you preparing themselves.
[127:59]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. They do all that.
[128:00]
Cynthia Erivo
They do that you don't have.
[128:03]
Ariana Grande
Have any forethought to have any foreplay.
[128:06]
Cynthia Erivo
Some people don't have the time, or at least they don't have the time in the moment. So they make little time during the day, which is. I guess that's the equivalent of intermittent fasting or.
[128:14]
Ariana Grande
Oh, yeah.
[128:15]
Cynthia Erivo
Or. Or how the French do like little meals throughout the day.
[128:18]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[128:18]
Cynthia Erivo
Bottoms do little bits of poppers and a little bit of butt plugs throughout the day. Yes. But no, I think, I think all of that is definitely a bit of Gertrude lady doth protest too much.
[128:31]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[128:32]
Cynthia Erivo
Of just all of like, you're being a little too into your man.
[128:35]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting to have her display it instead of say it.
[128:41]
Cynthia Erivo
I love it. Well, which. What ultimately is, what it should always be is show, don't tell. Right.
[128:46]
Ariana Grande
Always.
[128:47]
Cynthia Erivo
Which is the number one criticism people lob at the play. Hamlet is like it's so many, so many soliloquies and not enough action. I think it's a. It's a criticism. I understand with a great production of Hamlet, it doesn't matter. But when it's a mediocre to bad production, like, my God, do you feel the soliloquies?
[129:07]
Ariana Grande
Right. Because that's a later Shakespeare.
[129:09]
Cynthia Erivo
Right? Yeah. It's definitely one of his longest plays. But he always intended his plays to be done at two hours.
[129:14]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[129:15]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. And I think Hamlet might at the time have been like 2:30.
[129:18]
Ariana Grande
Jesus.
[129:18]
Cynthia Erivo
But yeah, it's like it shouldn't be. You should never have a four hour Hamlet.
[129:21]
Ariana Grande
There's all those intermittent scenes you can cut.
[129:23]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, when I was in college and we had language at the stage and we each had to pitch a Shakespeare production, I did pitch Hamlet and I said I would make certain cuts and I did cut the speak the speech I pray you monologue. And I just made the play that the actors do for the court a mimed play. So there's no dialogue, just.
[129:41]
Ariana Grande
Yeah, it keeps moving. Yeah, get the general idea and move.
[129:44]
Cynthia Erivo
Exactly, exactly, exactly. You know, it's. The whole thing is like a scary little nightmare. Nightmare.
[129:49]
Ariana Grande
But I love nightmares.
[129:51]
Cynthia Erivo
Don't we. We love One on Elm street, baby.
[129:53]
Ariana Grande
You know?
[129:54]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, first night. The first Nightmare on Elm street is masterpiece.
[129:58]
Ariana Grande
It's the blood.
[130:00]
Cynthia Erivo
It's the.
[130:00]
Ariana Grande
It's the Johnny Depp. Death, for me, it's. It really warms the cockles of my heart.
[130:05]
Cynthia Erivo
I mean, Tina's death is like, one of the greatest pieces of cinema I've ever seen.
[130:09]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[130:10]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. We're going up that wall and up to the ceiling.
[130:12]
Ariana Grande
Jesus Lord, it's so good.
[130:14]
Cynthia Erivo
Props to Heather Langenkamp. One of the best final girls ever, I think. I agree as Nancy. She's so good.
[130:21]
Ariana Grande
Is she your favorite Final girl?
[130:23]
Cynthia Erivo
No, Cindy Prescott's my favorite final girl. Oh, you better believe.
[130:27]
Ariana Grande
I think mine is Sigourney Weaver.
[130:29]
Cynthia Erivo
Great one. She's a great one. You can't go wrong with any, like, the top five.
[130:34]
Ariana Grande
No, no, because it's.
[130:35]
Cynthia Erivo
It's. I would say it's Sidney, it's Nancy, it's Laurie, it's. What's. What's Sigourney's character's name in Alien?
[130:44]
Ariana Grande
Ripley.
[130:45]
Cynthia Erivo
Ripley. Yeah. I would say those are, like, the four final girls. Is there a fifth that I'm not thinking of? Because there's never a recurring one in Friday the 13th.
[130:53]
Ariana Grande
You said. You said.
[130:54]
Cynthia Erivo
You said Nancy from Nightmare on Elm Street 1 and 3 and 7. Whichever one new Nightmare is Sidney Prescott from Scream, Laurie from Halloween, and then Ripley from Alien.
[131:09]
Ariana Grande
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't think of anything else. I'm sure there's one more.
[131:14]
Cynthia Erivo
I'm sure there's one we're not thinking of.
[131:15]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[131:16]
Cynthia Erivo
To be determined. So let's get into the ending of this then.
[131:19]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[131:19]
Cynthia Erivo
Because we talked about Valeria, but all the ending of the play, Rev finally confesses after. After. After the charades of the creature. Kill the cook. Finally Rev comes back out and denies it. Sort of admits it, then kind of fully admits it. But before this is.
[131:41]
Ariana Grande
What. Sorry.
[131:42]
Cynthia Erivo
So what if I.
[131:44]
Ariana Grande
What if I did? What are you gonna do about it?
[131:46]
Cynthia Erivo
Yep. And then the first thing Rev does is take a giant bite of. Of pork and starts to choke. And no one but Juicy knows the Heimlich maneuver.
[131:56]
Ariana Grande
It's a fat ham.
[131:57]
Cynthia Erivo
I love this moment that. That Rev won't let Juicy do the Heimlich on him because. And at first you think it's because of pride. Of, like, I. Like, he's been rude to me. I won't. Like, I won't accept his help. But no, it's homophobia. Toxic masculinity. They say, why won't you. Like, no one can help Rev. Tedra's banging on his back, breaking it like no one else do.
[132:17]
Ariana Grande
Doesn't get. Take a well in the Wimbledon. He takes, like, a chair and such like. Yeah.
[132:20]
Cynthia Erivo
And then they're like, why won't you let Juicy help you? To which Rev goes.
[132:25]
Ariana Grande
He just. Well, he doesn't. He puts his hand out and he does the fae.
[132:30]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Well, so in the.
[132:31]
Ariana Grande
I think we're saying the script.
[132:33]
Cynthia Erivo
In the script. So in the alliance production, he shouts he's gay. But, like. But like, through choked mouth. Oh, Billy Eugene Jones, I remember, also did something like that. He did, like, the handout and then broke down the wrist to be, like, limp. He's gay.
[132:47]
Ariana Grande
I love that.
[132:48]
Cynthia Erivo
The script doesn't give him dialogue. It just gives him stage directions that says he has to do something that implies. It's because it.
[132:55]
Ariana Grande
Sorry, we love free. I love. It's because playwrights give freedom.
[132:58]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. And the line that is meant to be conveyed is because that n. Word's gay.
[133:04]
Ariana Grande
Wow.
[133:05]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[133:05]
Ariana Grande
Wow.
[133:07]
Cynthia Erivo
And then he. But then he dies.
[133:09]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[133:10]
Cynthia Erivo
And nobody really mourns.
[133:12]
Ariana Grande
Well, it's the pseudo. It feels like the pseudo. Like, you know, like when the giant. When the. When the giant kills narrator in into the Woods. Woods.
[133:23]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, it feels like that.
[133:25]
Ariana Grande
It feels like, oh, well, what do we. What do we do we do now? Well, he's dead. We can't. We can't really mourn. But, like, so, like. But, like, what happens. What happens is play.
[133:33]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[133:34]
Ariana Grande
And.
[133:34]
Cynthia Erivo
And what does that mean for Juicy, who didn't end up killing him, but he does die anyway. And in fact, like, Juicy, in that moment of. Of panic, did offer to save. And ultimately it was the pride and. And hatred of the man that killed him, not Juicy.
[133:53]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Which is real.
[133:54]
Cynthia Erivo
Very real. Again, what we were saying earlier, you don't let that shit out. It will get you.
[133:58]
Ariana Grande
It will get you.
[133:59]
Cynthia Erivo
It will get you in the end.
[134:00]
Ariana Grande
The cycle of trauma will kill you.
[134:03]
Cynthia Erivo
The fat ham will rub in the end. And everyone kind of has a moment of clarity, of Rev's death, of teacher seeing that he seems much calmer now, maybe wasn't the sweetheart that she projected him to be in life and finds a very quick way of sort of snapping out of her protest. Too much doldrums. And there's a moment where Juicy says, well, this is a tragedy, which means we all have to.
[134:38]
Ariana Grande
We all have to die.
[134:39]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. It's what they expect. And there's. I don't. I don't. This is where I wish that it didn't skip at the library, because I don't remember. I don't remember how they staged it on Broadway, but I remember being like flashing lights, like strobe. Strobe light effect of them all, like attacking each other. And then when the lights came up, nothing had changed.
[134:56]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Yeah.
[134:57]
Cynthia Erivo
And they're like, well, we tried this almost this idea of like, there's the expectation and then there's the. The other. There's option B. Yeah. And I think the. The strength of option B, what kept them from living out the tragedy of. Of Hamlet.
[135:18]
Ariana Grande
Yes.
[135:18]
Cynthia Erivo
At least that is how the Broadway production. I remember the vibe sort of being reading it. It's much more of a choice. It's less of that. There's an entity keeping them from doing anymore to sort of mean like, well, we can't.
[135:28]
Ariana Grande
We. We don't want to die.
[135:30]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. This doesn't feel like us.
[135:31]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Yeah.
[135:32]
Cynthia Erivo
We're. We're. That's not going back to.
[135:34]
Ariana Grande
To be or not to be.
[135:35]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. And I think. Think it's. It's either rabbi or it's teacher. So one of them's like, I'm not dying. Like, I'm like, look at me, I'm thriving.
[135:42]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. I'm.
[135:43]
Cynthia Erivo
Why? Why? Why die night. Why. Why die now? Why die now?
[135:48]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[135:49]
Cynthia Erivo
And so they. They choose life. And that actually brings Rev back to life in a weird.
[135:54]
Ariana Grande
Well, in the. In the fantasy.
[135:56]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. In the fantasy of joy.
[135:58]
Ariana Grande
In the. The barbecue Follies.
[136:04]
Cynthia Erivo
In the barbecue. Is that just Shuffle the law.
[136:09]
Ariana Grande
Oh, God. Shuffle Along.
[136:13]
Cynthia Erivo
Have you heard me say this? I've said this before. I think Shuffle along is the follies for our generation of like an imperfect, brilliant musical really. That was a loving homage to a specific era of theater that has. That is no more. That we continued in the glass act. Did not get the proper praise it deserved.
[136:36]
Ariana Grande
No.
[136:36]
Cynthia Erivo
Got. Got praise, but was ultimately overshadowed by the juggernaut.
[136:41]
Ariana Grande
I think the producer just really tanked it. I think he did. It could have been so much better. Well, it could have had a nice life.
[136:48]
Cynthia Erivo
They underestimated Audra's appeal in the show and thought. And they. Just because she was. That whole thing about her pregnancy closing the show. It's bull.
[136:57]
Ariana Grande
It's bull.
[136:58]
Cynthia Erivo
She was always going to be gone for nine weeks.
[136:59]
Ariana Grande
And they should have sued. Sued. She should have sued for defamation.
[137:03]
Cynthia Erivo
She should have. But she's Audra. She's a class act.
[137:05]
Ariana Grande
She's a class act.
[137:06]
Cynthia Erivo
She's. She's the lady.
[137:07]
Ariana Grande
Well, also. Well, they did. There was a suit, wasn't there?
[137:11]
Cynthia Erivo
I think. Yes. Well, they were. They.
[137:12]
Ariana Grande
Because the insurance company, I think insurance.
[137:15]
Cynthia Erivo
Company tried to either sue Scott Rudin or Scott Rudin tried to sue the Insurance company saying that Audra's pregnancy is what closed the show because it was an unforeseeable circumstance.
[137:25]
Ariana Grande
Yeah, yeah.
[137:26]
Cynthia Erivo
Which I think ended up up losing because they're like, she was always going to be gone for these three months and. And. And that under. That replacement was always going to be on. Like, the difference of her pregnancy is that she. Instead of nine weeks, it was going to now be, like 16 weeks.
[137:39]
Ariana Grande
Her replacement would have been one of the best replacements in. In, I think, in history.
[137:46]
Cynthia Erivo
I'm sure she would have been wonderful. She just wasn't selling tickets was the problem.
[137:49]
Ariana Grande
I know, I know.
[137:51]
Cynthia Erivo
But again.
[137:51]
Ariana Grande
But now she's. Now she's writing music for Beyonce.
[137:53]
Cynthia Erivo
Say, yeah. There. Go, go. Therefore, by the grace of God, go I. But the ultimate final tableau is everyone's wondering where Larry is and where. What happens with Larry, Because Larry went away.
[138:04]
Ariana Grande
Larry went away and he transformed into. He found. He went and found clothes.
[138:10]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[138:10]
Ariana Grande
And he transformed himself to, like, little drag queen. It's not really drag, but it's a fabulous outfit. It's. It's. It was. The outfit was so incredible on Broadway. Well, the public and Broadway.
[138:23]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes.
[138:25]
Ariana Grande
I was in absolute shock.
[138:27]
Cynthia Erivo
Let me read the stage directions, because Rabbi says, let me go in the house and see about my baby. Suddenly, the lights transform to something dramatic. Light on the patio doors. And then we see Larry. He is now an utterly divine masterpiece. He is transformed and he transforms. The space, drag, fashion, camp, delight are all at your disposal in whatever iteration he is. Fabulous. So that's all it says. It's all says. He doesn't have to be in drag. He doesn't have to be in, like. He just has to emanate. No, he has to.
[139:02]
Ariana Grande
Well, emanate change.
[139:03]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. And joy and pride. Yeah, he is. And. And. And he says in the stage directions, like, changes the space, which is absolutely what happened on Broadway. The set broke apart.
[139:13]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Opened up. It became a Runway.
[139:15]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes, it became a Runway and mirrors and a disco ball. And then Larry says, mighty real.
[139:20]
Ariana Grande
Started to play.
[139:21]
Cynthia Erivo
Yep. And then Larry says, am I late? I lost track of the time. I just threw a little something on, and pow, I'm here. And if you watch the alliance video or Boston, whichever one it is, it's a little more realistic. Like, he comes out in drag. He's like, oh, I threw this on. On Broadway. It was like.
[139:35]
Ariana Grande
It was a. It was costume.
[139:38]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes. And. And it was him sort of being RuPaul on the Runway of, like, am I late? I lost track of the time. It was very like. He became the angel from Angels in America by way of Lola and Kinky Boots. And I think that is how we ended up having Kinky Boots. It's, in a way, Fat Ham is a prequel to Kinky Boots.
[139:59]
Ariana Grande
Oh, look at that. I love when plays live in the same universe.
[140:01]
Cynthia Erivo
So do I. The final, final stage direction. The play cracks open into a celebration of the feminine, which I love. Celebration of the feminine is a wonderful phrase. Maybe Larry lip syncs to a song sung by someone in love. Maybe Rabbi and Teedra drink wine and cackle and dance in their seats. Maybe the old bones of Reb get up and dance with newfound freedom and joy. Maybe Opal throws dollars at Larry. Maybe Tio rolls a blunt. Maybe Juicy is serenade. Maybe this is all a love song. I don't know how long this should last. I would say it should last long enough for the whole experience to move from something normal to something sublime. Lights burn on until we are all gone like stars. That's it.
[140:46]
Ariana Grande
That's what. And that's why people compare him to Susan Loy Parks. It's very Susan Loy Parks esque of the stage directions. Yeah. Yeah. She's very. She can. Yeah.
[140:56]
Cynthia Erivo
I should. I should. I've only ever seen Susie Parks plays. I call her Susie like we're friends.
[141:02]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[141:02]
Cynthia Erivo
But in my mind, we are. I've only seen her work. I've never actually read it.
[141:06]
Ariana Grande
Oh.
[141:07]
Cynthia Erivo
Like, I've seen Top Dog, Underdog. I've seen plays for the. For the play gear.
[141:10]
Ariana Grande
Many years ago, there was a. They did plays in New York. They did. I don't know if she wrote, like, a thousand plays or something like that.
[141:18]
Cynthia Erivo
That. That was Plays with play gear.
[141:20]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. And I. Wait, what was. What you call it?
[141:23]
Cynthia Erivo
Plays for the Plague Year? Where. No, she wrote a play every day during lockdown.
[141:27]
Ariana Grande
No, no, this is before. This is 20. This 2010.
[141:30]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh, I'm so sorry, everybody. I corrected Jason on something that I shouldn't have corrected him. He was right the first time.
[141:38]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. She wrote, like, it was a thousand plays. Are you looking at that?
[141:43]
Cynthia Erivo
No, I. I was trying to, but I don't. I don't know the title.
[141:45]
Ariana Grande
I don't. I don't remember what it was, but I. I did one because they were. They were happening at all different times in the same space. But the play that we had was mostly just stage direction.
[141:56]
Cynthia Erivo
That's amazing.
[141:57]
Ariana Grande
It was. It was incredible. So we had. It was all interpretation.
[142:01]
Cynthia Erivo
That is. That is amazing. I was trying to find it. I can't find it. Yeah. It's just writing. The last two words are that's it. It's very.
[142:09]
Ariana Grande
I love it.
[142:09]
Cynthia Erivo
That's all.
[142:11]
Ariana Grande
That's it. That's all. I love giving productions power.
[142:16]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[142:18]
Ariana Grande
Because they know their community.
[142:19]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[142:20]
Ariana Grande
As well I have. This has been done other places since.
[142:24]
Cynthia Erivo
Do we know they did it at Mark Taper Forum. I'm pretty sure with the entire or most of the original Broadway company. They've now done it at Huntington. They've done it at Alliance. Wilma did it again.
[142:33]
Ariana Grande
But like regionally I want it to be done like in the tinier theaters.
[142:36]
Cynthia Erivo
Sure. Well, in the country those are technically speaking regional but they are just like.
[142:40]
Ariana Grande
I know the top echelon tinier.
[142:41]
Cynthia Erivo
Well, it's. The play hasn't been licensed for very long, so I think it was only on Broadway. It closed on Broadway like a little over a year ago. So I would imagine.
[142:52]
Ariana Grande
It seems like so much has happened.
[142:54]
Cynthia Erivo
I know. Right? Well. And it's so much has happened and that the 2023 Tonys feel like both yesterday and a 10 years ago.
[143:01]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[143:02]
Cynthia Erivo
Because it's. Most of the shows from the 2023 season which is in my opinion was overall a stronger season than the 2024 season. A lot of those shows have not had the lasting impact that we would like in terms of the energy they had when they were on Broadway. Like Kimberly Akambo for me is a lovely musical that is. That is still being spoken about, but it does not have the staying power fan base of a best musical winner. Fat Ham was very much a moment that hasn't really like been continually talked spoken of. Yeah. Really only in. In connection with Leopoldstadt winning the Tony for best play which I missed.
[143:38]
Ariana Grande
I'm still upset that I missed.
[143:39]
Cynthia Erivo
He was very good. Leopoldstadt winning was a sore spot for a lot of people because they felt that it was an opportunity to award a. A more interesting, less crowd pleasing or like highbrow play. It was because that was the year that also we had Fathom Cost of Living, Ain't no Mo and between Riverside and Crazy.
[143:58]
Ariana Grande
Oh wait. Riverside and Crazy was incredible. Oh, that's a. I said the Pulitzer Prize winner.
[144:02]
Cynthia Erivo
It is. It is. And I saw. I didn't see it on Broadway. I saw Between Riverside and Crazy at second stage. I wish I had seen it on Broadway because at second stage I didn't totally get it and I would have liked to have seen it again and to see if I had a reappraisal because everyone I know who saw it on Broadway Was like, dear Lord.
[144:17]
Ariana Grande
The set design was incredible. Oh, yeah.
[144:19]
Cynthia Erivo
Well, the house, the apartment spinning was beautiful.
[144:22]
Ariana Grande
It was. But it. Yeah. Everything about that show was genius.
[144:26]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah, I. But I had gripes with pretty much every nominee that year, except for maybe Fat Ham, like every other nominee. I had things that I loved and things that I liked and things I didn't like. Like Cost of Living was a very powerful play and wonderful representation, but I can't say that I enjoyed it or was moved by it. I was. That was me going, this is all very well done, but I'm feeling Nothing. Ain't no Mo, I thought was a brilliant concept that needed to be 25 minutes shorter.
[144:57]
Ariana Grande
The concept was.
[144:58]
Cynthia Erivo
The concept was wonderful.
[144:59]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[145:00]
Cynthia Erivo
But I, I am very much in my editing phase right now. I'm. I'm seeing so many things these days and I'm like, cut, trim, Lachius, three hour musical. Trim, Drag the Musical, two hours with no intermission. Cut that down.
[145:13]
Ariana Grande
No intermission.
[145:14]
Cynthia Erivo
No intermission. Two hours long.
[145:15]
Ariana Grande
Oh, I passed up an opportunity to see that. See it. I. I should see it, though.
[145:19]
Cynthia Erivo
That needs to be a tight 85 max.
[145:21]
Ariana Grande
But they want all the drag, you know, the drag fans want as much time as possible.
[145:26]
Cynthia Erivo
Then get that child off the fucking stage. There's a child with a whole song and jujubee doesn't have any.
[145:33]
Ariana Grande
A child.
[145:33]
Cynthia Erivo
There is a child in it. And Joey McIntyre.
[145:38]
Ariana Grande
I gotta go see this.
[145:39]
Cynthia Erivo
Okay, if you must. But so like with Ain't no mof, that was my issue was like, I thought the premise was brilliant. I thought every. I thought the premise for every scene was brilliant, but I was like, every scene needs to be two minutes shorter, which would make the whole thing 20 minutes shorter, which would just make it a tight, powerful bop. Because I think Fathom is actually very tight for what it is.
[146:01]
Ariana Grande
Very tight.
[146:01]
Cynthia Erivo
Which is why I don't really have any gripes with it. Leopolstadt was messy, but was. It was fun to see Stoppard be relatable and take creative risks at such an older age. And because it was such a personal play, it was actually one of the more understandable and moving plays of it is because Stopper is somewhere where it's like, if you aren't understanding what he's doing in the first five minutes, the rest of the night is going to be miserable. Yeah. Yeah. And that's not me sitting here going, oh, I understand all Stopper. I don't. I think I understand two Stopper plays.
[146:33]
Ariana Grande
I never. I. I've not gotten Stopper as much.
[146:36]
Cynthia Erivo
My dad and I went to go see Travesties at Sag Harbor Bay Street. It was starring Richard K. They do.
[146:43]
Ariana Grande
So many cool things up there.
[146:44]
Cynthia Erivo
They really do. I saw Lady In Question there with Charles Bush, and it was phenomenal. But my dad is friends with Richard Kind, and Richard's like, I'm never gonna play this role ever again. I'm so wrong for it. But, like, come up and, like, see the freak show. And so we go. And my dad had seen Travesties on Broadway in the 70s. And between my dad's knowledge of World War II, my knowledge of the importance of Being Earnest in Oscar Wilde, and our mutual knowledge of the data art movement, we were like, we are combined the demographic for this play, and we understand collectively 60% of it. It. So we're like. I can't imagine anyone in that audience understanding more than we did. And it was just still so confusing.
[147:23]
Ariana Grande
Billy, I beg to differ with you.
[147:25]
Cynthia Erivo
How do you mean?
[147:25]
Ariana Grande
You're the top.
[147:26]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[147:27]
Ariana Grande
You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of red.
[147:41]
Cynthia Erivo
But, yeah, fat ham. It's all. I.
[147:45]
Ariana Grande
All.
[147:45]
Cynthia Erivo
All I mean is that it was. It was such a moment in the way that a lot of shows that season were a moment. And that haven't really been discussed as much since. Like, think about how big.
[147:56]
Ariana Grande
Also post pandemic. There's also a lot in the pipeline.
[147:59]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Like, think about, like, prima facie or fasci, however you pronounce it. The Jodie Comer Show. How. What a hot ticket that was. What a moment it was to be able to see it.
[148:06]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[148:06]
Cynthia Erivo
We don't really talk about that before.
[148:07]
Ariana Grande
We don't talk about it at all.
[148:08]
Cynthia Erivo
It was a wonderful performance.
[148:10]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[148:10]
Cynthia Erivo
I mean, I try to keep the memory alive of Jessica Chastain in Doll's House. House, but people won't listen. It was. I was surprised how much I enjoyed it.
[148:18]
Ariana Grande
I. Well, now I'm seeing something Boulevard, so I feel like I'm. I'm understanding.
[148:22]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Well, listen, Jamie. Well, Jamie. Jamie Lloyd's Doll's House is a Bart Share production compared to what he's doing with Sunset Boulevard.
[148:30]
Ariana Grande
Wow. Yeah. It's incredible.
[148:33]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[148:34]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[148:35]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. But I think that the musical lineup of the 2023 Tonys was so much better than this past year. And yet, like.
[148:42]
Ariana Grande
But yet anything is. Anything is better than this past year.
[148:46]
Cynthia Erivo
Just about.
[148:48]
Ariana Grande
I think. I think a root canal would be.
[148:50]
Cynthia Erivo
Maybe not the 1989 Tonys when it was Jerome Robbins. Broadway opposite Black and Blue and Starmites.
[148:56]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. There was another bad.
[148:57]
Cynthia Erivo
Oh. Oh.
[148:58]
Ariana Grande
The other bad season in my lifetime was the year after 9 11. But that was understandably. So.
[149:06]
Cynthia Erivo
Don't blame 911 for sweet smell of Success. Yes. Do you mean the. The Millie year? Is that the one you mean?
[149:12]
Ariana Grande
Is that the. The rough year?
[149:13]
Cynthia Erivo
The 2000. It's the 2000. Two is the first. Tony's right after 911 and it's Millie. You're in town. Sweet, small success in Mamma Mia.
[149:20]
Ariana Grande
Okay. It wasn't. I guess it wasn't this.
[149:22]
Cynthia Erivo
Unless you're referring to Hairspray. Moving out. Amor. And you're with Frog and Tony. No.
[149:25]
Ariana Grande
That's a great year.
[149:26]
Cynthia Erivo
Then I think you're just.
[149:28]
Ariana Grande
Maybe I don't remember.
[149:29]
Cynthia Erivo
I think you're just lying.
[149:30]
Ariana Grande
I'm not. Because that Millie year was decent.
[149:32]
Cynthia Erivo
The gas leak year was a pretty bad year. That was more.
[149:35]
Ariana Grande
Was there bad stuff in between? I remember being underwhelmed.
[149:39]
Cynthia Erivo
Well, listen, there are many bad.
[149:41]
Ariana Grande
I was also 20 years old.
[149:43]
Cynthia Erivo
There are also many bad seasons of musicals where we do get. We are able to scrounge up like three or four solid musicals for the Tonys.
[149:49]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[149:50]
Cynthia Erivo
Like the Millie year was not a great year for new musicals. But with. With Millie, you're in Town and Mamma Mia. That's like a nice little.
[149:57]
Ariana Grande
I saw you're in town a few times.
[149:59]
Cynthia Erivo
I'll bet you did. That was my sick bitch.
[150:01]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. It's my favorite fucking show.
[150:03]
Cynthia Erivo
You do. You do like water sports, don't.
[150:05]
Ariana Grande
I do. No, I'll never. I'll. I gotta tell you one day about the time I discovered what water sports were.
[150:14]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[150:15]
Ariana Grande
I was. I'm a naive child.
[150:17]
Cynthia Erivo
Well, you know. Think twice before you say yes to.
[150:21]
Ariana Grande
Darren Criss's pool party or Darren Criss and P. Diddy. You got. You gotta be careful.
[150:28]
Cynthia Erivo
We were doing so well.
[150:30]
Ariana Grande
We're doing so well.
[150:32]
Cynthia Erivo
Okay. I think we should start wrapping this up.
[150:37]
Ariana Grande
Okay.
[150:38]
Cynthia Erivo
Fat ham. Final thoughts.
[150:40]
Ariana Grande
I. It was so. Thank you for having me on to talk about this. I actually forgot. I don't think about it a whole lot.
[150:47]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[150:47]
Ariana Grande
But I forgot how great the show was and revisiting it and all the themes was. It was a really great experience.
[150:54]
Cynthia Erivo
I was so glad you said yes to this. Yeah, I was. This was one of the things that I was genuinely thrilled to pick out of the bowl because I remembered loving it and I. But there was a lot that I forgot. I remembered moments and I remembered certain Lines. But I wanted to revisit it, and I was glad that I was able to do that. And I hope that we gave an appreciation to the listeners for this play. For this wonderful play.
[151:17]
Ariana Grande
Really wonderful.
[151:18]
Cynthia Erivo
And a rare Pulitzer winner that isn't about A rare Pulitzer winner for a black story that isn't about pain.
[151:29]
Ariana Grande
The joy.
[151:30]
Cynthia Erivo
Yes, it is finding joy through trauma. It's not about the trauma.
[151:33]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[151:33]
Cynthia Erivo
I was actually. So I was telling a friend yesterday after I left the library and had coffee with this friend, telling them that I was recording this episode today, and they're like, oh, like, I loved this. This was their view from their experience with black theater movement as a, as an actor of color was what they loved about Fathom, as they said, Said it felt like when we came back from the pandemic, their words was so many of the black theater we were getting on Broadway was just like vegetables. Like, yeah, yeah. Like, eat it and, and you may not like it, but you have to eat in, like, otherwise you're problematic. Like. And Fathom was just a celebration.
[152:10]
Ariana Grande
Yeah. Yeah.
[152:11]
Cynthia Erivo
In a way that it's what you want all the time.
[152:14]
Ariana Grande
I, I hope that there's a lot more.
[152:16]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah.
[152:17]
Ariana Grande
I really do.
[152:18]
Cynthia Erivo
I do, too. Do. I think there's something. I think there's something to be said about you can. Of showing human pain that isn't slavery or disease or violence and is just a human experience and then ultimately coming out of it by choosing a better. A better way forward.
[152:37]
Ariana Grande
Choosing yourself.
[152:38]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Choosing you above others. Me before you, some might say. Yeah. And I think that we can hope.
[152:44]
Ariana Grande
Hope.
[152:45]
Cynthia Erivo
It's too early to tell. The play is still too young, but I hope that that can be its legacy of.
[152:49]
Ariana Grande
Yeah, I hope more people do. I hope colleges do it. I hope that. Oh, God, that schools do it. I, I, I want to see a production of it in, you know, a small theater in Brooklyn.
[152:59]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. I think if I, if I were to give any advice to a production that was thinking of doing fat ham, it's. Remember, it ends with joy. Remember, these are people. And remember, it's fucking funny.
[153:14]
Ariana Grande
It's funny as fuck.
[153:15]
Cynthia Erivo
Which, ironically, is the same memo I would give to angels in America when we get to that episode. It's funny as shit. Do not ever let go of that. And have fun with. With Pabs ghost entrances. They can be fun. He came out of the grill the third time. I forgot. Like, he rips open the grill and, like, tumbles out, still smoking. It was great. It was. That show was also where my Infatuation with Billy Eugene Jones came.
[153:41]
Ariana Grande
Yeah, he's. He's in something now.
[153:43]
Cynthia Erivo
He's in our town.
[153:44]
Ariana Grande
He's in our town, yeah.
[153:45]
Cynthia Erivo
It is not a good use of him.
[153:46]
Ariana Grande
Oh, well, it's like that. He's working well.
[153:49]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. Always happy. He's classic.
[153:51]
Ariana Grande
That cast is stacked.
[153:53]
Cynthia Erivo
It's stacked with a lot of wonderfully talented people. Are they all gelling with each other on that stage? That's for you to decide. Listen, Bill, Eugene Jones is not in a smoking outfit and he's not giving top daddy energy in our town. And I will never forget his top daddy energy as I will not forget his humor and his smokingness literally as pap and then his true Dom daddy energy as rev. And I was like, who is this man? Can he please put his hand on my mouth?
[154:24]
Ariana Grande
He got nominated, right?
[154:25]
Cynthia Erivo
He did. Not only Nikki Crawford got nominated to see Drama Etc. Marcel Spears also didn't get nominated as Juicy.
[154:31]
Ariana Grande
I wonder what that's about.
[154:33]
Cynthia Erivo
It was a pretty weird year some because there were a lot of people who got in that we weren't expecting and because it was like surprise nominations from Cost of Living and some surprise nominations from Ain't no Mo. Like no one was mad.
[154:47]
Ariana Grande
Okay. Yeah. Being surprised.
[154:51]
Cynthia Erivo
I was. I was. I was disappointed that Billy didn't get in. I wanted him to. Everyone was shocked Marcel didn't get in. And there were, I would say, two very obvious people who could have been taken out, including one who might have won that year. But whatever, I'm not on the committee.
[155:09]
Ariana Grande
It is what it is.
[155:11]
Cynthia Erivo
The person is a talented, apparently very lovely person and we don't want to deny their their awards. It's more that that was not their performance.
[155:20]
Ariana Grande
It's all politics anyway.
[155:21]
Cynthia Erivo
It's all politics. Politics, baby. In the same way that I love that my Riri Zellweger has two Oscars. Do I love that it's for Cold Mountain and Judy. Not really, but is a two time Oscar winner and I will not take that away from her.
[155:31]
Ariana Grande
Should have been for Chicago, but here we are.
[155:32]
Cynthia Erivo
Chicago. Bridget Jones's Diary. Jerry Maguire. Take your fucking pick. Down with love. Nurse Betty. My God, the woman slaps down.
[155:39]
Ariana Grande
Get any Oscar love?
[155:41]
Cynthia Erivo
No. At the very least should have had a costume nomination.
[155:43]
Ariana Grande
Gorgeous film.
[155:45]
Cynthia Erivo
Sure is that. Should have had a costume nomination yesterday. But the Oscar Hate me and hate gay culture. Jason, where can people find you if you want them to find you?
[155:53]
Ariana Grande
You can find me on social media at Jason. J A Y S O N L K E R R on instagram or if you just happen to be on Scruff and Grindr, give me a shout out.
[156:02]
Cynthia Erivo
But not if you're on the DL. If you want to find me, I'm on Instagram only. Attcoplek. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, give us a nice five star rating review. I don't know what the next episode's gonna be yet. As I said, we're been recording all this out of order. I'm also not entirely sure when this is coming out. This is either coming out the week of my readings livestream on November 16th or the week after. Okay, if it's the week of, stay tuned. If it's the week after, I hope you liked it. Tell your friends about it. It'll be online for a little bit longer. And that's it for now. Jason, we close out every episode with the Broadway diva. Who do you want to close us out with today?
[156:40]
Ariana Grande
Well, it's me, so. Elaine Stretch.
[156:45]
Cynthia Erivo
Phenomenal. You don't want to do Nikki Crawford to 100 Love? No, we'll do. We'll do Elaine Stretch. How about that bit in. In Elaine Stretch of Liberty where she's singing the. The Black Jazz Singer song and her mom.
[156:58]
Ariana Grande
Long time Daddy.
[156:59]
Cynthia Erivo
Yep.
[156:59]
Ariana Grande
Yeah.
[157:00]
Cynthia Erivo
And her mom was like, where did you hear that?
[157:03]
Ariana Grande
It was cool. And she dug it.
[157:05]
Cynthia Erivo
She dug it.
[157:05]
Ariana Grande
I forever live for that woman.
[157:07]
Cynthia Erivo
She is. And. And those gams.
[157:09]
Ariana Grande
Oh, that's what we have in common.
[157:11]
Cynthia Erivo
Yeah. So. It's so good. She's amazing. All right, that's it for now. We'll see you guys next week. Take it away, Elaine Stretchy.
[157:20]
Ariana Grande
Bye.
[157:21]
Cynthia Erivo
I don't want no greenhorn rookie Like a soldier going to war he's got all that big artillery and he don't know what it's for I want a loan I'm daddy who's gonna be ready and it time.