HAIR w/ Robbie Rozelle

Summary

Broadway Breakdown

Episode: HAIR w/ Robbie Rozelle

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Robbie Rozelle
Date: February 9, 2023

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Episode Overview

In this vibrant and unfiltered episode, host Matt Koplik and returning guest Robbie Rozelle dive deep into the history, culture, and enduring legacy of HAIR: The American Tribal Love-Rock Musical. As part of the "Big Move" series—dedicated to musicals that transferred from Off-Broadway to Broadway—they dissect everything from HAIR’s tumultuous development to its impact on musical theater and popular culture. The episode is peppered with passionate critique, personal anecdotes, and plenty of laughs (and four-letter words), making it as irreverent and high-energy as HAIR itself.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Histories with HAIR

• [03:40] Robbie discovered HAIR through cast albums and his musical theater-obsessed dad but encountered it deeply only in high school and later in a college production.
  • “Hair first came into my life as a cast album. My father listened to a lot of, like, 70s rock...”
• [07:06] Matt recounts his mother’s fandom; her unique ways of connecting via its cast recording, and the generational disconnect when watching the revival.
  • “There were three CDs I could play that would get her in a better mood… and the third was the original Broadway cast recording of Hair.”
• [09:16] Discussing audience reactions across generations; those who saw each iteration seemed to favor their own—leading to the recurring theme: "it's not as good as the first time."

2. Summary & Structure of HAIR

• [11:50] Both agree that HAIR is more vibes than plot—a collection of I Am songs, vignettes, and review-like numbers centered on Claude’s draft dilemma.
  • “Hair very much is like the chess of its time in that no two versions are alike… it’s like working for hippies because it’s very much like a revue.”
  • “If there’s one major plot thread, it is Claude... getting drafted and not burning his card and ultimately choosing to go to Vietnam to fight, and he dies at the end.”

3. From Downtown to Broadway: HAIR's Origins & Development

• [15:28] The genesis: Written by James Rado and Jerome Ragni (book/lyrics), with music by Galt McDermott. Inspired by their lives, the counterculture, and news articles about kids expelled for long hair.
• [19:27] HAIR becomes the first musical staged by the Public Theater and Joseph Papp, changing the direction of the Public’s purpose and commercial thinking.
  • “Hair was the first show done at the Public... and it kind of ruined [Papp’s] thinking as an artistic director for the Public afterwards.”
• [27:43] The infamous “Cheetah” discotheque run, a failed commercial experiment before the show's overhaul and Broadway transfer.

4. Transformation for Broadway & Cultural Shockwaves

• [31:55] Michael Butler buys the rights, hires Tom O’Horgan to reimagine it, and the musical is substantially rewritten, refocused on broad appeal but with much of its wild authenticity lost (according to contemporaries).
  • “Butler bought the rights and had three months to overhaul Hair... majority new cast.”
• [33:48] HAIR's competition at the 1969 Tonys: up against 1776, Promises, Promises, and Zorba. Despite popularity and cultural impact, HAIR doesn't win Best Musical.
• [38:42] The Broadway community viewed HAIR with suspicion and occasionally outright derision, as evidenced by laughter during Tony nominations.

5. Inside the Original Production

• [36:40] Wild, messy, and intoxicating atmosphere; frequent real drug use onstage; creative chaos reigned, making it feel both spontaneous and dangerous.
  • “On a show like Hair, you were considered professional if you showed up.” – Melba Moore ([36:40])
• [53:14] Nudity becomes a defining feature—introduced during Broadway previews, never required, and gradually expanded, becoming a major media talking point.

6. Cast Highlights & Later Legends

• [32:48, 60:39] Star replacements and future stars who came through HAIR: Melba Moore, Diane Keaton, Keith Carradine, Meat Loaf, Ben Vereen, Joe Butler, Robin McNamara, and more.
  • “Melba Moore eats that album. My God, Her vocals... She’s doing the heavy lifting.” ([35:49])

7. Musical Evolution, Albums, and Reinterpretation

• [14:45] HAIR as an "almost no skip album"—it spawns endless covers, international recordings, and remains a favorite for Broadway and pop singers (with debatable results).
  • “Hair, I think, was the first Broadway musical to have multiple non-English speaking cast recordings, like, so close to the original album coming out.”
• [57:27] Its music’s international success is compared to Fiddler on the Roof—overcoming its distinctly American context through universal themes and infectious songs.

8. Modern Revivals & Enduring Appeal

• [50:42] Revivals, failed and successful: The 2001 Encores! version (with Idina Menzel) is seen as flat and over-choreographed; the 2009 Diane Paulus-directed revival is celebrated for re-capturing its raw energy within a Broadway frame.
  • “Kathleen Marshall did it. Did the production of Hair at Encores. Way too danced. And, like, doesn’t have any kind of flow. It’s very. Stop. Starty.” ([50:19])
• [67:36] Cultural context shapes the show's effectiveness—each generation views HAIR in relation to its own social climate.
• [101:52] Rent is deemed the closest descendant to HAIR’s sound and spirit, but nothing since has quite captured its blend of counterculture, rock, and theatrical anarchy.

9. Legacy, Influence, and Why HAIR Endures

• [100:17] Hair’s influence: Solidifies the "concept musical" form, pushes the boundaries of acceptable content, and opens doors for rock music on Broadway.
• [103:19] Endures due to the universality and adaptability of its music and structure; because it’s more “vibe” than plot, each new production reinvents it for its time.
  • “Because it is a bit of a blank canvas of storytelling, there’s a lot you can project onto it... When something’s not really giving you specifics, it’s the Bella Swan syndrome... every young woman in America who read it could picture herself…”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On generational reactions:
  “Everyone who saw the previous iteration of HAIR is less enthused with the next iteration... everyone’s just always a little bit, ‘it’s not as good as the first time.’” — Matt Koplik ([03:17])
• On the anarchic spirit:
  “On a show like HAIR, you were considered professional if you showed up.” — Melba Moore, quoted by Matt ([36:40])
• On the absence of plot:
  “HAIR very much is like the chess of its time in that no two versions are alike... I also think that it’s like Working for hippies, because it’s very much like a revue.” — Robbie Rozelle ([11:52])
• On cultural impact:
  “Hair kind of ruined [Joseph Papp’s] thinking as an artistic director for the Public afterwards.” — Matt ([18:50])
• On the Broadway album:
  “I’ll always prefer the Melba Moore ‘White Boys’ to anything. And it’s not even the most—the arrangements aren’t even that extraordinary. It’s just the energy of—the authenticity of it.” — Matt ([58:57])
• On the naked scene:
  “Apparently they discussed it once and then it was never talked about again. And then in the first preview, three of them just stood up naked during that number. And a lot of other cast members were like, what, what, what’s happening right now?” — Robbie ([53:46])
• On bringing it back too soon:
  “Every show needs a breather and moment to be missed and then come back with fresh eyes.” — Robbie ([67:04])
• On the show’s survival:
  “That cast album and it having so many hit songs fly out from it really kept it in the zeitgeist... but that cast album being as good as it is is truly what keeps people coming back to it and returning to the well.” — Robbie ([104:32])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [03:40] Robbie’s personal history with HAIR
• [07:06] Matt’s family connection and multi-generational HAIR love
• [11:50] How to describe the show’s plot (or lack thereof)
• [15:28] HAIR’s origins with Rado, Ragni, and the Public Theater
• [27:43] The Cheetah Discotheque run
• [31:55] Transformation for Broadway; Tom O’Horgan’s role; cast overhaul
• [33:48] 1969 Tony Awards context and competition
• [36:40] Cast experience, creative chaos, and drug use backstage
• [53:14] Origin and expansion of the nude scene
• [57:27] International success and global adaptability
• [50:42 / 67:12] Revivals, including Encores! and the 2009 Paulus revival
• [100:17] What HAIR changed for the American musical
• [103:04] Why HAIR endures today

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Final Takeaways and Advice for Future Productions

• Stay raw and messy: “Don’t be too pretty with it. It’s not a pretty story and they are not songs to be sung prettily.” ([94:51])
• Embrace the tribe: The magic comes from the ensemble’s real connections; productions often create almost familial bonds among cast members.
• Remember the context but refresh the vibe: Each successful revival tailors HAIR to the spirit and issues of its moment; don’t fear reimagining.
• Don’t over-choreograph: Movement should feel organic, improvised, not boxed and neat.

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Closing

This episode is a raucous, loving tribute to HAIR’s strangeness, profundity, and enduring relevance, balancing fun facts, sharp commentary, and a healthy dose of irreverence. Whether you're a first-timer or a life-long tribe member, you’ll walk away ready to let the sunshine in.

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Transcript

[Robbie Roselle]

Saint.

[Melba Moore]

And Jupiter aligns with Mars Then peace will guide the planets and love will steer the stars this is the dawning of the age of Aquarius the age of Aquarius.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello all theater lovers both out and proud and on the deal. Welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history of UNT Legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called the Big Move and it is covering shows that had so much success off Broadway they just had to transfer to the great wide way and try some luck over there. My guest today is a friend of the Pod. Alum of the pod. Some of you know him and those of you that love him don't know him. He's dear good Judy. Please welcome back Robbie Roselle.

[Robbie Roselle]

What a joy to finally have just us.

[Matt Koplik]

Just us. Finally.

[Robbie Roselle]

John who?

[Matt Koplik]

So what if it's us only? That's how that goes, right?

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm covering that show. At some point I should probably listen to the score again.

[Robbie Roselle]

God bless.

[Matt Koplik]

God bless. Also, we have to remind me to announce when breaks are gonna happen. Yeah, it was like a month and a half since I recorded the pod and then we just recorded Love, Valor, Compassion. And I completely forgot to be like break time. So just Patty.

[Robbie Roselle]

It doesn't matter because they won't throw in the commercials at that point anyway. So.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I got. Well, Patty's was gonna come in anyway to announce the commercial breaks. Yeah. I'm very proud that I've now made her my. My break.

[Robbie Roselle]

I'm sure she'd be thrilled to be your ad queen.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. Well, she's no longer a member of Equity. What does she have to complain about? Precious little, precious little Robbie. What musical are we talking about today?

[Robbie Roselle]

We're talking about Hair, the American tribal love rock musical.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, yes, yes. That is how it was marketed. That is what all the posters said and that is how literally every review referred to it. Most of them, rather eye rollingly.

[Robbie Roselle]

They were like little tribal musical, super condescendingly. But it is. That's exactly what it is. So.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, we'll talk about the reviews as we continue talking about the show. The reviews are interesting. Something I will say just up front as we talk about the show is it is so fascinating to read about this show's trajectory and then to talk to people who saw it on Broadway and then saw the revival and all this stuff. And like the basic theme I get from people is anyone who saw the previous iteration of Hair is less enthused with the next iteration of Hair. So everyone who saw it at the public was less enthused with it on Broadway. And then everyone who saw the original Broadway production was less enthused with. With the revival. And then anyone who saw the revival was less enthused when it came back a year later from the tour.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So it's. Oh, everyone's just always a little bit. It's not as good as the first time. And I'm like, yes. Like losing your virginity? Actually, no. I guess the opposite of losing your virginity. It's usually better after the first time.

[Robbie Roselle]

Is it?

[Matt Koplik]

In my experience.

[Robbie Roselle]

I don't remember.

[Matt Koplik]

Whoever remembers their first time? We all block it out.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Anywho, Robbie, what is your history with Hair?

[Robbie Roselle]

What a great question. Thanks for asking.

[Matt Koplik]

I do this for a living.

[Robbie Roselle]

I know. And you make threes of dollars.

[Matt Koplik]

Threes of dollars. I go to the movies once every two months because I can afford to now.

[Robbie Roselle]

Hair first came into my life as a cast album. My father listened to a lot of, like, 70s rock, a lot of, like, the who and Rolling Stones and Grand Punk Railroad, like, all those things. And Hair was sort of in there among. But we don't speak, so I never really listened to it. It's getting really good. Three minutes in. You're welcome. Buckle up, kids.

[Matt Koplik]

We love the Trauma.

[Robbie Roselle]

But I used to go when I really discovered musicals and cast recordings, I would go and buy, like, thrift shop ones on vinyl. And Hair was definitely in there. The first time I ever saw. Saw part of it was in a college or. Sorry, a high school production. The high school did scenes from four musicals, and they were Get Ready, west side Story, Oklahoma, A Chorus Line, and Hair. And that is. And it was in, like, redneck Pennsylvania. That was a. Choices were made left and right, strong and wrong.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, although I appreciate a high school that wants to embrace the culture.

[Robbie Roselle]

That high school really said, what if we just did all public theater shows?

[Matt Koplik]

All public theater shows. And Oklahoma.

[Robbie Roselle]

And Oklahoma. And so then I was like, this is incredible. You know? So then I started listening to the album a lot and watched the Milo Foreman movie. Milos Foreman. Him.

[Matt Koplik]

Him. That. That douche.

[Robbie Roselle]

God bless. He tried.

[Matt Koplik]

He.

[Robbie Roselle]

Well, yes, we'll get to it.

[Matt Koplik]

I actually have never seen the movie. I've only seen clips of the movie.

[Robbie Roselle]

You've just seen Mrs. Garrett.

[Matt Koplik]

I've seen Aquarius. I've seen Manchester, England. I've seen the White Boys, Black Boys. I've seen Walking Through Space. And I've seen the End. How. How it ends.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes. And then I was in a production of Hair at SUNY Cortland I did not go to SUNY Cortland, but I was cast. I was Walter. I did not sing Aquarius or what a piece of work as men. I sang in Ain't Got no.

[Matt Koplik]

In my mind, I have this vision of you with, like, your spidey senses tingling that a musical is happening somewhere and there's someone ill equipped for a role.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And you walked in and you said, I know I don't go here, but you don't understand. You need me in your musical if it's going to stay afloat. And the director just looked at you and said, I have a feeling you're right, and just brought you in.

[Robbie Roselle]

The director was actually a friend of mine growing up and had directed a lot of theater in my hometown. And she was getting her masters at SUNY Cortland. And when this was pre Facebook or almost pre Internet, but not quite, and I heard that she was doing Hair, and I said, hey, I want in. And she said, okay. And, like, made space for me. But, like, I sang in Dead end, you know what I mean? Like, and then I went to the opening night of the revival.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, lovely.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

That must have been a wonderful evening.

[Robbie Roselle]

It was fantastic.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

My mother is a huge Hair fan. She saw it when she was a teenage. I believe she. I believe. 14. Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Huh.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so something to talk about with the Broadway production. When she was a teenager, I think 13 or 14, she went to see Hair for a birthday party. Girl in her class at Dalton. Got a group of girls together and they went to go see Hair. Well, her and her parents. This girl's parents were like, they were not hippies themselves, but they were very, you know. Oh, you know, children should learn and let's embrace the culture. And also when they saw it, Hair was the thing to see.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure. It was officially, like a phenom.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, exactly. So it wasn't even just about, oh, is it appropriate? It's, you know, it was in the zeitgeist.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

So my mom had seen it, was obsessed with it, had the cast recording, and when I was a kid, we would listen to it a lot. And I knew that there were two. No, there were three CDs that if my mom picked me up from school and she was in a pissy mood, I knew there were three CDs I could play that would get her in a better mood by, like, track three. One was Laura Nero, the Collective Works of Laura Nero, Stone Soul, Picnic Stoney End. And then one was Tina Turner. It has the Can't Stop the Rain Catch My Window. And then the third was the original Broadway cast recording of Hair. That includes Melba Moore and Ms. Diane Keaton.

[Robbie Roselle]

That is. Yeah, yeah, we're gonna talk about that.

[Matt Koplik]

Cast and a lot of fun replacements too. But. So I had always known Hair through the original cast recording.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

To the point that when the 2004 Actors Fun concert happened.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And that CD came out, which I know a lot of people in our, like, circles love, I couldn't really get into it. I thought it was kind of over sung because I was used to kind of the scratchy voices sort of just kind of barely getting the notes out. I thought that was a little more authentic. And I've now come to a medium with all that I can appreciate the beautiful vocals of other versions of. I still have some issues with that cast recording, with that concert recording. And then I missed it in the park. I think I was.

[Robbie Roselle]

That's where I wish I had seen it most.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I didn't get to see it in the park because of stage door. And then when it transferred, I saw it. I was supposed to see the night before the Tony Awards and my dumb sister, my bitch sister, who I love very dearly, was graduating from college at Williams to go to her graduation. And so I went to see her a week after that with my mom and I had a blast. My mom did not.

[Robbie Roselle]

Oh, she saw. Because she saw the original production when she was 14.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And in her mind she said, like, I saw the revival. I was like. I thought they, like, I'm like, they captured the energy. Hair is more about a feeling and, and, you know, vibes and it is about plot really. So I thought they just were really good at maintaining all that energy. And we walked out. My mom was like, I don't know how to explain it. Just this time they were wearing costumes and. And I went, yeah, that's fair. And then her other complaint was, you know, for a show called Hair, there was almost no body hair from any of the men. It was basically Will Swenson standing alone with chest hair. And that was.

[Robbie Roselle]

God bless.

[Matt Koplik]

God bless. Everyone else was shaving and waxing.

[Robbie Roselle]

They had a merkin budget.

[Matt Koplik]

They had a merkin.

[Robbie Roselle]

That's true.

[Matt Koplik]

Did they?

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Why didn't people just grow out easier, cheaper?

[Robbie Roselle]

Unclear. Well, because it was built in the merkin budget, I guess.

[Matt Koplik]

So.

[Robbie Roselle]

I also fell in love with the music of Hair because every. So I love not just cast recordings, but like vocal albums of Broadway singers or Broadway adjacent singers and they will often record songs from the show. And sometimes they're excellent. And Sometimes they're Andrea McCardell singing Easy to Be Hard.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Or like Sarah Brightman singing Good Morning Starshine, which was a choice.

[Matt Koplik]

There are some people who truly can sing anything. It's not a lot of people, though. Actually, you know what? I wouldn't mind a Kelly o' Hara solo in Walking Through Space. But the way that Melba Moore does it on the obc, which is all head voice.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't like it belted.

[Robbie Roselle]

Or like maybe Frank Mills.

[Matt Koplik]

She would do a nice Frank Mills. Sure. It would have to be her lighting the piazza penis, not her bridges.

[Robbie Roselle]

Greg would walk in, playing the guitar softly, and she's just singing Frank Mills.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Like a soft acoustic version. But again, I need the. I need the piazza ping, not the bridges. Full throat.

[Robbie Roselle]

Kelly, I know you're listening, and.

[Matt Koplik]

Kelly, can you hear me?

[Robbie Roselle]

We've just pitched the. Anyway. Hair.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So for anyone who is unaware of Hair. Well, everyone is aware of Hair, but I don't think a lot of people know it well, which is fair, because I think a lot of people who've done the show probably don't know it that well.

[Robbie Roselle]

I would agree.

[Matt Koplik]

How would we describe what it's about?

[Robbie Roselle]

Great question. Because Hair very much is like the chess of its time in that no two versions are alike. I also think that it's like working for hippies, because it's very much like a review.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's vignettes.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah. And it's like a dozen I Am songs in Act 1, where everybody steps forward and sings their central thesis and. And then sort of recedes. Okay. So, Tommy, Tommy, Tommy. Hi. I am a professional Hair.

[Matt Koplik]

Robby makes money being in the industry.

[Robbie Roselle]

Making musical albums, so. But it's. Now I'm stuck on this Tommy thing, and I don't even know why. It's not like a favorite musical of mine. It's just because of that one thing.

[Matt Koplik]

You get out of here, Tommy, and you don't come back.

[Robbie Roselle]

Tommy, I can't hear you or see you. Well, feel you, or. I don't know what we're doing with Tommy. All right, so go back to your. Hair, essentially, is about Claude Hooper Bukowski and a group of friends who are counterculturalist people of the 60s, set with the backdrop of the Vietnam War in New York and essentially dodging the draft any way they can. There's, like, love triangles within there. There's, like, all sorts of stuff. And then at the end, Claude. Spoiler Claude. Gets drafted and decides he's going like he feels that that's his duty. Unclear as to why he decides to go when so many people dodged. But goes, gets killed, everybody sinks, let the sun shine in. That is the nitty gritty plot.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I would say if there's one major plot thread to Harry, it is Claude. It is him getting drafted and not burning his card and ultimately choosing to go to Vietnam to fight and he dies at the end.

[Robbie Roselle]

Don't you feel that Claude very much is an outsider who's trying to fit in but can't make the leap Again.

[Matt Koplik]

Because as you said, no two versions of Hera are alike. It also depends on the actor and what text is used. It's sort of the polar opposite of Chess, though, because whereas Hera has very little plot, Chess just has too much plot.

[Robbie Roselle]

Too much plot. But like, the song stack is consistently different.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Songs are assigned to different people, different orders.

[Matt Koplik]

And also, like Chess, very few skips. Hair is an almost no skip album for me. I think I can name like three songs that I don't care for.

[Robbie Roselle]

There's also like 115 albums of hair.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, Hair, I think, was the first Broadway musical to have multiple non English speaking cast recordings, like, so close to the original album coming out.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because it took time for a lot. Because the way that the cast album history begins. Right. Is with Oklahoma. There was no original Broadway cast recording before Oklahoma. It was like highlights sometimes. And singers, as you said, popular singers would cover stuff.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And then Oklahoma was the first time of like capturing the cast and the.

[Robbie Roselle]

Feel from the orchestra. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then. And then selling it. And then that sort of progressed. And then Hair was sort of. I mean, I don't want.

[Robbie Roselle]

So let's give a history of Hair.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Because it started downtown.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Well, so Hair was written by James Rado and Jerome Ragny.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

As they say, both their names with music by Gelt McDermott.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right. And all three were on stage opening night of the Broadway production.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Rado and Ragny were actors who met doing an off Broadway play called Hang down your head and die in 1964, which I believe closed on opening night.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yep. It was the glory day of its time.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Rhedo was a bit more of a successful actor than Ragny. He had done a few Broadway shows. Off Broadway. Ragny's only Broadway credit was as like a knight when Richard Burton did Hamlet. And they. The idea they got for Hair was essentially from their own lives and their friends and their own personal friendship, like their. The friendship of Clawd and Burger, who they Played in the original production was very much their own friendship. Just, like, very passionate and tumultuous and, like a little toxic, which I give them credit for, like, having the objectivity to recognize that and putting it in the show. And they had been reading these articles about how kids were getting kicked out of school for having their hair too long.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

That's when that was the point of America, where boys start growing their hair long. And they would get kicked out because it wasn't at the right length. So they found inspiration from that. And then they got the title from a painting by Jim Dine that was also called Hair. And that was literally just a tuft of hair. They saw it, they saw the painting and they saw the title. And, like, I think that's the title of our show. And they knew it was gonna be a musical and it was gonna be vignettes. And it was also gonna be sort of about the war because the Vietnam War had begun by the mid-60s. And they wanted to sort of be in response to that. And they would send out their material to multiple producers. And the. The story differs based on who? You ask Ragni, always. Rado and Ragni are like, we had a typed up manuscript. We don't know what anyone's talking about. Like, we sent out, like, full scripts to people. Then their producers were like, I got like, Chinese food receipts with, like, lyrics on the back of it. Everyone has different stories. And I'm sure it's all true.

[Robbie Roselle]

What's weird is I was just at Panda Express before I got here, and Aquarius was actually on the back of my receipt. So handwritten.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, the other thing is, I was telling someone yesterday as I was continuing my research, like, oh, how's the hair research going? I'm like, half the things I read are just like. Like, who came up with this idea? I don't know. We were all high, man. What I will give them credit for is Ragny was really. He was a. The term we like to use sometimes in the theater world is shark. He was a shark about getting the material out there and getting somebody to produce it. And he knew Joseph Papp a bit. And Pap at this point point was just. Had been just doing the Shakespeare in the Park. The Public Theater had not existed yet. But he had gotten a grant for the Public Theater because Shakespeare in the park was so successful. And they were in the middle of construction for it. They went. They had the.

[Robbie Roselle]

Down in Lafayette.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, Down Lafayette was the Morgan Library. No, the Astor Library that they were renovating to become the Public Theater. And it was still under renovation when Pap got the material for Hair. And what I will say from the Papp oral history biography and the oral history of the Public Theater is everyone admits Joseph Papp had amazing taste. He didn't know jack shit about musicals, and Hair kind of ruined his thinking as an artistic director for the public afterwards. And we'll get to that in a second. Because Hair was the first show done at the Public.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

First musical, first show ever. And the way that it came about was he got the material and he was like, you know, this looks pretty good. And he, like, showed it to his wife, and his wife's like, this. This doesn't mean, like, this makes no sense. And the lyrics are like, hair, hair, hair, hair, hair.

[Robbie Roselle]

I mean, the lyrics are. Cole Porter wishes he wrote this many list songs, truly. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So many lists. And half of the songs we know from Hair weren't in the Public production. A very different ending. Let the Sunshine in, was not in the original version. And basically, Pap told the writers, get yourself. No. So he got the. Like, the resident director or somebody who was going to be the resident director for the public enlisted him to be the director for this. His name was Gerald Friedman. And Friedman read the material, and he was like, okay, they need a composer. Because the music they had was like.

[Robbie Roselle]

You can die in bed. You can live in bed. Whack. A Deca dread.

[Matt Koplik]

That's. Nothing ever Happens in Blaine. It was very. That.

[Robbie Roselle]

Just Home for Purim.

[Matt Koplik]

Imagine if Aquarius was like. Was the music to Nothing Happens in Blaine.

[Robbie Roselle]

Perfect.

[Matt Koplik]

When the moon is in the seventh house, Jupiter aligns with Mars. But so they were like, you get. Get yourself a real composer. And I don't know how McDermott was the one they picked. He was a Grammy winner at that point because someone had covered one of his songs, but he wasn't.

[Robbie Roselle]

I don't. I don't know how they met, but.

[Matt Koplik]

But they did.

[Robbie Roselle]

Thank God.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Honestly. Because the music is what really stands up 1000% and makes you sit up, like, just from the opening of the album. The minute you. You put the needle down on the record. Yes, kids. Or you hit Play on Spotify. Like, it grabs. Alexa Play right now. Everybody do it. Alexa, play Aquarius from Hair.

[Matt Koplik]

You're welcome album.

[Robbie Roselle]

But, you know, that's.

[Matt Koplik]

And what's so crazy is, like, Ragny and Rado of that movement.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

McDermott was not.

[Robbie Roselle]

Not at all. He was in a suit. So I read Laurie Davis's book Letting down my Hair for This pod. And she was in the original cast. She was. She sang White Boys. She was not Melba Moore.

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[Robbie Roselle]

And the.

[Matt Koplik]

The. Was. She played. She plays Abraham Lincoln.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes. So she. The book was written not long after she had left the show and was very unhappy because, like, the building of the show was it for the cast, and then the doing of the show was not. It was a lot like Hamilton in that regard. Like, the cast was happy until they weren't. And so it's. There's, like, a bitter tinge to the book. However, she loved the composer and said that he was sort of just always smiling.

[Matt Koplik]

Always.

[Robbie Roselle]

And always in a suit.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And he had a wife and four kids. He had four kids. He was also pushing 40 at that point.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, Rodney and Rado also were over 30 at this point.

[Robbie Roselle]

A hundred percent.

[Matt Koplik]

And there was a lot of controversy because they both wanted to be in the show. And when they were doing it at the Public, Freedman was like, absolutely not. You're both too old. And then he eventually acquiesced and let Ragny play Burger, but he wouldn't let Rado play Claude because he was like, it's so important that Claude come off as young.

[Robbie Roselle]

And James Rado was 33 and with a receding hairline.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Looked 40.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like I'm about to turn 33. I look like I could be James Rado's son in the photos of James Radio.

[Robbie Roselle]

Like, he.

[Matt Koplik]

He does not look like he's 33.

[Robbie Roselle]

He definitely was trying to be the Derek Lena of his day, still playing high schoolers into his 40s.

[Matt Koplik]

There's a video of Rado and Ragny singing. I think it's hair on the Ed Sullivan Show. And, like, they look 45, even though they're a solid 10 years younger than that, but they look 45, especially because everyone else in the cast is 18 to 24.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So they just. They stuck out like a sore thumb. And basically, off Broadway, at the Public, it was just kind of a total mess because every day Rado and Ragny would come in being like, oh, we found this thing that we wanted to include. And this. We were in Thompson Square park, and we want to include this. And there was no script. And basically Friedman had to create a show from nothing. And everyone in the cast weren't. Nobody was an actor, really. A couple people were like singers like Melba Moore, but most people were just sort of people that they had found. And everyone was high all the time. They tell a story about how Paul Jabarra, who would Sing. It's my conviction. And then went on to write Last Dance and Rachel.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah, the important thing. The important thing.

[Matt Koplik]

And then wrote a bunch of stuff for Fame to Paul Jabbar, I believe. Maybe.

[Robbie Roselle]

No, no, no.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, he became a pop record producer.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But I feel like he wrote some more.

[Robbie Roselle]

He was writing another musical that never got produced as well, but he.

[Matt Koplik]

So he was like, 17, 18 when he did in the Public. And Friedman tells a story in the Public pap book about how, like, one rehearsal, he just was, like, so fucking zonked that Friedman, like, pushed him up against a wall and said, if you come in tomorrow stoned, you're fired. Because, like, they couldn't do anything right. And again, like, Rado wanted to play Claude and kept undermining Friedman. They brought in a choreographer, and everyone was no one. Everyone was fighting. Friedman left a week before performances were supposed to start. He's like, I'm out. And they. In that time, Rado fired the actor playing Claude and played Claude. The choreographer took over. All the changes that Friedman made to the script were reversed. And they played the first performance. It was a disaster. Joe Papp called up Friedman. He's like, please, please come back. Freeman comes back and he's like, okay, I've got two performances to get this back to where I was. And he said, the first performance, we did my first act. And their second act, I fired Rado, had the young guy play Claude again. And then the second performance, we did both of my acts, and then we opened the third performance and we got good reviews and sold out. And the problem was that because it was sold out and was already becoming a movement, there was pressure from Joe Papp to extend it or just, like, have it keep playing in the Ann Pasher Theater. How you say that name?

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah. Huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's the theater where Passing Strange was in.

[Robbie Roselle]

Correct.

[Matt Koplik]

Runaways.

[Robbie Roselle]

Suffs. No, no. Where Fat Ham just played. Yes, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I also saw Bright Room called Day in there.

[Robbie Roselle]

The See what I Want to See.

[Matt Koplik]

See what I Want to See. First Daughter Suite.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah, I did that cast album. Thanks.

[Matt Koplik]

You're very welcome. It's like a 250 seat theater. It's in a thrust space.

[Robbie Roselle]

It's fascinating.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And they. They made it very environmental and. And whatnot in that. In that theater. And it was a big hit. Like, it caught on immediately. And.

[Robbie Roselle]

And Joe Papp was convinced that he couldn't. You couldn't move it to a proscenium.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And also convinced that it was. Joe Papp also had A disdain for Broadway and commercial theater.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

He didn't want it to move. He thought that was not artistic. And he has said, in retrospect, that was wrong. He said what he would have done was he just would have kept it open and take and, you know, use that money for other stuff. But he's like, I had Hamlet coming in in the. In the spring. I couldn't have hair playing. So. And they only had, like, two theaters at the time in the public, so they couldn't go anywhere. And so a man by the name of Michael Butler, who was a Chicago businessman and had run for state senate in Illinois and worked for JFK's campaign, at one point, he had seen the show on a whim because he had seen the poster and thought he was also a big Native American rights activist.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes, very much. And that original poster had three actors. It was like a black and white shot.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Or it's sort of like a silver tone shot of the three of them. And they are in, like, native headdress and stuff.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And he was so convinced that the show was about Native American rights that he. So he went to go see it, and it was not about that, but he loved it anyway and saw it like, six more times. And he called up Joe Papp about wanting to do something with it because he realized it was limited run, it wasn't going anywhere. And basically Pap was like, I don't want to have anything to do with that. He's like, if you can raise the money, move it somewhere. And so they had two options. They could make it go to the Henry Miller Theater, which is now the Stephen Sondheim, or they could take it to, like, some random space that was not for Broadway.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So they went to a discotheque called the Cheetah.

[Robbie Roselle]

The Cheetah. And I don't know what you do with the Cheetah, but I know it's not dancing.

[Matt Koplik]

Nope. It is a very. Have you, like, read about the whole Cheetah experience?

[Robbie Roselle]

No. Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

And not Rivera, everybody. It is. It was a discotheque in the West 50s and apparently a really large space that had a giant platform that I guess used to be for, like, singers or dancers.

[Robbie Roselle]

I feel like Rocky Horror played there as well at one point.

[Matt Koplik]

It might have.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Much later, but. Yeah, it might have. But the thinking was people would go to the Cheetah, we know, pay their price of admission, and I think, like, they upped the price of admission by a dollar, and that dollar caught would cover the running costs of the cast. Of Hair because you would go and you would dance and then the show would begin. It's like, oh, we have like a free. And you think like, I have a free show. And wild. Yeah. And it was this. It had this big platform and you know, whatnot. And they basically, they did the show as they did it at the public, reconfigured it a bit and it made it interactive and no one gave two shits about it, right?

[Robbie Roselle]

Because imagine you're going to for a night out, you're going to a disco, and suddenly there's a full ass play happening in front of you of whether or not you should burn your draft card.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Would you care? Because that's not what you signed up for.

[Matt Koplik]

And again, this version of Hair was not the version though we know and love. Like, it ended with and what's. And again, so fascinating. If you read the book the Season by William Goldman, he talks about how when it got to Broadway, it became too standardized and commercial pleasing. Because the original ending of Hair had these like toy army tanks that fought each other and blew each other up. There was no song. It just ended like that. And he was like, it was beautiful metaphor for the sort of stupidity of war because we're basically, these were these grown people playing with toys. And what does any of it mean? He's like, and now on Broadway, it ends with this big feel good song which we all know is the iconic Let the Sunshine in.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

So like imagine going to a discotheque and like Aquarius begins and you're like, oh, she's a bop. But then two hours later it ends with these toy trucks and you're like, I just want to dance.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

This version of Hair lasted for all of six weeks and completely bombed. And so then what happened was Michael Butler called up Joseph Papp and he said, hey, can I buy the stage rights from you? Because I would like to make move to Broadway. And Joseph Papp was like, sure, you bombed at the cheater. You're gonna bomb off Broadway. Go for it. Sold in the rights. And literally it was the worst mistake of Joe Papp's career. And everyone says, this is why I bring it back up to the why Hair influenced Joe Papp forever. Everyone who was on the board of the Public during Joe Papp's reign said him selling the rights and hare becoming what it was because the public got like a minor percentage.

[Robbie Roselle]

I was gonna ask you if they got. They got something, anything. It's not like Chorus Line.

[Matt Koplik]

No, not Chorus. Not Hamilton stuff like, no, they got Something, but very minor. And because of that, all Broadway transfers from the public, from there on out, like, the negotiations were intense because Pat made sure that the public got something from it. But everyone said after that, Pabs view of what to pick for seasons at the Public changed forever. Because then he was like, is this something that could transfer? Which was never something he thought about before. So, like with two gentlemen of Verona, also with Gault McDermott, he let them develop it because he thought to himself, this could be another Hair. This could be another crowd pleaser. And it was a crowd pleaser. It was not the institution that Hair.

[Robbie Roselle]

Was obviously, certainly one a Tony.

[Matt Koplik]

It won a Tony over Follies. Everyone loves to talk about that. But it ran for almost two years. It toured and made the money. But like, a lot of people when it transferred from the Delacorte were like, why? Like, this was so nice. Like, let it be. And he was like, no, like, it can transfer and this. And it was, you know, two years after Hair, so it tells you something. And a lot of other things that were at the Public Transferred in the 70s, Chorus Line, obviously, that championship season. Plenty. Well, plenty was in the 80s. But, like, everyone talks about how. And Pirates of Penzance and Mystery Drude.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

People talk about how, like, Pap was so gung ho about moving Drood, even though no one thought it was Broadway ready. And that was part of his mentality of, like, what can go to Broadway? What can go to Broadway?

[Robbie Roselle]

Right. What's going to pay for things?

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which like. Like Chorus Line did. But Butler bought the rights and had three months to overhaul Hair, so he fired Friedman, the original director. He brought on Tom o', Horgan, who at that point was only known for downtown experimental work at La Mama. And they fired the original design team, which included Ming Cho Lee, which I would love to have known what that set looked like.

[Robbie Roselle]

Truly. Yeah. And brought him Robin Wagner.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Which one of his first gigs, I think.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Fione V. Aldridge was the costume designer. No, she was the original costume designer. I don't know who did this costumes for Broadway and had a majority new cast. A couple people from Off Broadway. Melba Moore, Shelley Plimpton, Paul Jabarra, Jerome Ragny was Berger again. But Jill o', Hara, the original Sheila. Jill o', Hara, the original Sheila was replaced by Lynn Kellogg.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yep. Of the Kellogg fortune.

[Matt Koplik]

Seriously?

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah. She's the daughter of God Bless.

[Matt Koplik]

And we. And we bring in Diane Keaton, Shelley.

[Robbie Roselle]

Plimpton, who is Martha's mother.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep, yep, yep. The. The completely Overhauled. Dozen new songs. Made it much. And cut down a lot of the book. Made it much more. Just truly vignettes.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And everyone who saw Hair on Broadway after seeing it off Broadway were underwhelmed. Everyone but Clive Barnes, who was just so happy we had a rock musical.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But everybody else was like, ah, the magic is gone. The authenticity is gone. But we will discuss that in a second because, Robbie, I think it's time we take a break.

[Melba Moore]

Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[Matt Koplik]

How do you mean?

[Melba Moore]

You're the top.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Melba Moore]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top.

[Matt Koplik]

You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble dress. And we're back. Do you know, Robbie, what the musical's Hair was up against for at the Tonys that year?

[Robbie Roselle]

I do know that. It was up against 1776. Which one?

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Robbie Roselle]

Oh, God. What were the other musicals that year? 69.

[Matt Koplik]

Speaking of Jill O'. Hara.

[Robbie Roselle]

Oh, promises, promises. Of course, of course, of course.

[Matt Koplik]

And then a Kander and Ebb musical, the Happy Time. New. A little later than that.

[Robbie Roselle]

Oh, fuck. No, I don't. Life is what you do until you're dead. Zorba. Right. Of course. Because watching the Tony performance of this, and at the end, like, Zero Mustel comes out and there's like the massive thing of Marquis and Zorba's up there.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah. Zorba opened the telecast and Hare closed out the telecast.

[Robbie Roselle]

Nine minutes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Oh, they got.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah, they got a long performance and. Wow, they could never do that number on the Tonys now.

[Matt Koplik]

Nope.

[Robbie Roselle]

They did 3, 5, 00. Among other things.

[Matt Koplik]

And then they went into Love to.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sunshine in But Blood A Piece of Work is Madness in there, too.

[Matt Koplik]

And at that point. Point. What's her name? She was in Falsettos originally. She played the doctor.

[Robbie Roselle]

Janet Metz or Heather McRae.

[Matt Koplik]

Heather McRae.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah. Heather McRae was daughter.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Sheila McRae was Sheila. Heather McCray was the Sheila that performed on the Tonys that year.

[Robbie Roselle]

So I want to know when what a Piece of Work is Man became to women. I'm not sure because it is not written that way. And it's. Hair is one of those shows where anybody who's not a principal, the character is named after the original cast member. So you're like, I'm Walter, and it's just like a guy whose name was Walter. And like Smokey Joe's Cafe is the same way. Right. Even though it makes no sense or purpose. It's just. I barely know her. It just Makes no, it was an odd job. It was gorgeous, gorgeously sung. And Melba Moore gave it. She ate.

[Matt Koplik]

As the kids say, Melba Moore eats that album. My God, Are her vocals.

[Robbie Roselle]

She's doing the heavy lifting.

[Matt Koplik]

All the vocals.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't. So again, that kind of goes into. Everyone was like, so high and everyone takes credit for everything. So, like, Friedman takes credit for making the show make any kind of sense, and then Morgan takes a lot of credit for making it more like Broadway ready and theatrical. But then cast members will take credit for different ideas. And, you know, Ragny and Rado were always coming in with new text, and McDermott had to come up with new music on the spot. And so there's no real paper trail of who did what or what became what. Melville Moore says in. Has a quote in the book I have here, which is Broadway musicals, the 101 greatest Broadway musicals, Revised and updated. Yup, yup, yup. Her quote is, on a show like Hair, you were considered professional if you showed up. So, like, you showed up. And who knows what happened on the.

[Robbie Roselle]

Day.

[Matt Koplik]

During the be in and then during Walking Through Space, everyone's supposed to be smoking pot and it's supposed to be stage pot because you can't be high when you're doing a show. But Melba talked about how, like, there were nights where someone was passing on real weed and you didn't know until you got to let the sunshine in. You're like doing Let the sunshine and you're like, fuck, I'm flipping out so high. And she's like, got a belt and esh like, motherfucker.

[Robbie Roselle]

And Michael Butler was bringing in Dr. Feelgood to shoot them up before the show every night.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep, a lot. So we were mentioning this before. A lot of people in the original production of Hair were high, high. And also didn't have a lot of nice things to say about the experience. As we mentioned, baby, Diane Keaton was in it. And she was pretty miserable most of the show.

[Robbie Roselle]

And what I've read is she was the best sheila that there ever was.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, she was. So she was the second Sheila. Lynne Kellogg was the first.

[Robbie Roselle]

But then she's like, I gotta go make cornflakes. Yeah, she.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, she was in it for three months.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

The show opened in April. And that's another thing, by the way. So the show opened in April of 68, but was up for the 69 Tonys. And what happened was the Tony cutoff was supposed to be. It used to be, I guess, like, it didn't have to necessarily be opening night, you just had to start performances before the cutoff. And Hair had two weeks of previews on Broadway and. And they started previews a week before the cutoff, so they were supposed to be eligible. And then what happened was CBS or NBC, whichever, whatever TV station was going to air the show, pressured the Tony committee to move up the deadline a month. So it was March. So Michael Butler for Hair, and I think another show sued because they had. They were, like, misled or whatever.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And it got. The case got thrown out, so they ended up just being eligible for the following year. And then if you watch the Tonys that year, no one in the audience takes Hair seriously. Like Carol Burnett's listing off the nominees early in the Telegram, like, we've got four musicals up this year. We got Zorba and 7076 and Hair. And everyone starts to laugh, like, can you believe Hair is up for best musical? And I'm like, I'm sorry. Hair is the cultural phenomenon that is making these ratings go through the roof. There's a reason you put it at the end of the telecast, so people would stay tuned in.

[Robbie Roselle]

It is fascinating, too, that in that telecast, when you watch them perform that number and it goes to a wide shot and you just see head after head after head of audience members just stuck.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So, like, not wanting to either, as.

[Robbie Roselle]

These people are, like, truly, like, belting to bleed. It's fascinating to see, like, culture and counterculture coexist. I'm trying to make a point and not.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, actually, so this. This reminds me, this isn't Hair specific, but Hair is related to it. If anyone who watches the Tony Awards, if you haven't watched early ceremonies, and I'm talking, like, pre 2000 early. Like, early. Before Radio City Music hall, really.

[Robbie Roselle]

So before Rosie, which would be 96.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, so, like, the first three or four telecasts of radio City Music hall kind of have this album energy, but it gets lost pretty soon. But when it used to be in a Broadway theater and they couldn't just sell tickets to anybody. It was really just like the nominees. People immediately involved in the show and like the community.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

You got a really good sense of what shows the community was behind based on, like, when they would do their performance, like, who. Like what the entrance applause was for the performance when the nominees were listed, and then whoever won. So, like, when Dorothy Loudon wins for Annie, everyone flips the fuck out. Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Goes crazy. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

When Tyne Daly wins for Gypsy, everyone freaks out. When Elizabeth Taylor comes on to give best musical to 42nd Street. And the audience won't let her begin talking because they're just so. Everyone's so in love with her.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And then she's, like, also fucking up left and right. I love it so much.

[Robbie Roselle]

She's also probably as high as the people in Hair.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Allegedly.

[Matt Koplik]

It's wonderful. I just love it. She's giggling the entire time, but it's. And she's like. She's flippantly telling the mezzanine to stop it. Like, they're right up next to her like a friend.

[Melba Moore]

Stop it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. They keep cheering. Stop it. So great. But it's the same thing. Like, you know, when Chorus Line was up that year, and, you know, every time Chorus Line wins, everyone goes insane. And so for that year with Hair, you can tell that, like, everyone in the theater is a little resentful that it's so successful, because I don't think anyone in the theater that year is, like, pleased with it because they. They're more. Everyone is actually really more behind Promises, Promises that year than anything else. If you. Again, if you listen to.

[Robbie Roselle]

Which is so fascinating because that's not what won. No.

[Matt Koplik]

1776.

[Robbie Roselle]

When. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And from the sound of the applause, no one's upset by it. But Promises, Promises was sort of like the middle ground of. It had a sound similar to Hair. It was new, it was modern, but it was still a traditional musical with storytelling and involved people. People who the community respected, like Neil Simon and Michael Bennett and Roger Moore, I think was his name. No, not Roger Moore. Robert Moore.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

That was the director.

[Robbie Roselle]

It's like Roger.

[Matt Koplik]

Roger Moore, 007 directing. Sure.

[Robbie Roselle]

Why not? Honestly. Boys in the Band, Turkey Lurky. Damn Time. Do you think that 1776 won because it was so America versus hair, which those same voters would think of as un American. And I'm using big.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Hand quotes for listeners.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know. So I. I really do think with Hair, it just comes down to nobody respected it. I think it got nominated for musical and director almost begrudgingly. If, you know, if Dear World were better, World probably would have been the fourth nominee. Not there. But because 1776, it's pro America. But it's also questioning the way I kind of describe 1776 is it came. It's very much a product of its time and how it views the four, the Founding Fathers. Because it's sort of, you know, what kind of country are we? What do we want to. What do we want to become?

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

It's pre Watergate, but Mid Vietnam War.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

So it's. It's not totally cynical of government, but it is a little. It's.

[Robbie Roselle]

It's certainly cynical of war in Mama Lake Shar.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah. But in a way that's not in this production. That's close.

[Matt Koplik]

We don't. We don't talk about Bruno.

[Robbie Roselle]

But no, it, like, it pushes the.

[Matt Koplik]

Buttons very lightly where it's more sort of like. We're just asking the question. We're not blaming you. We're not.

[Robbie Roselle]

It's not an indictment, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah. It's more just sort of like, hey, can we, like, discuss this?

[Robbie Roselle]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

Whereas Promises, Promises is like, look how, like, evolve. We're becoming, like, with our miniskirts and our. And our Go Go music. And then hair is just sort of like, no, it's all a mess and we don't have the answers, but we blame you anyway.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah. This is my doom, my humiliation.

[Matt Koplik]

October, not June. And it's summer vacation.

[Melba Moore]

Such a disgrace how can I face the nation? Why should this pain Bring me such strain? The only ocean oh, oh Everybody going down, going down, going down Everybody going.

[Robbie Roselle]

Down, going down, going down it's everything that the people who are in those tuxedos do not enjoy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Is. Is what I'm saying. And so did they vote for 1776 because that is what they see as their version of progress?

[Matt Koplik]

I. I think. I think the voters probably voted for 1776 for a number of reasons. One is the progress. One is that it is legit a good musical.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And also 1776, I think, came later in the season. The order goes. Hair, Zorba, Promises, 1776.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So that had the benefit of being newer.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Fresh in everybody's minds. And also it had the element of surprise because everyone thought that thing was gonna bomb. The joke of 1776 is why go see it. You know how it's gonna end.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And then the magic of that show is, like, you get to the middle of it and you're like, I'm not so sure how it's gonna end.

[Robbie Roselle]

Oh, shit.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Like, oh, fuck, is it gonna. Like, are they gonna sign it? Like, we're getting close to the end and they haven't signed it yet.

[Robbie Roselle]

Peter Stone, you wrote a great book.

[Matt Koplik]

He wrote a great book. So it's a lot of that. And I think with the Americana stuff, it was like, the right amount of indictment.

[Robbie Roselle]

Not to.

[Matt Koplik]

Not too forward thinking, but just enough hair. I really do think it just comes down to no one took it seriously.

[Robbie Roselle]

So Tom o' Horgan takes over and he's slashing things left and right and they recast, et cetera.

[Matt Koplik]

Bring the writers back in as the leads.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes, wig them.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, wig them hard.

[Robbie Roselle]

Did you know that the show on Broadway opened with Claude sitting cross legged on the lip of the stage? When the doors opened to the theater, he was sitting there and some cast members were like wandering the audience and like interacting, etc.

[Melba Moore]

And.

[Robbie Roselle]

And then somebody brings in a grill. I literally just read about this because I had no idea. And I've been in the show that somebody brings in like a burning grill and there's like a music beat and Burger comes in, cuts a piece of Claude's hair, puts it into the grill and lights it on fire. And that is how hair begins. Your eyes tell me that you did not know that to be true.

[Matt Koplik]

I did not know that to be true.

[Robbie Roselle]

So again, Laurie Davis book Letting down my hair, like chapter 18 spells out beat by beat every thing that happened in the show. It is far better than any Wikipedia synopsis ever could be. But I was just agog by that symbolism especially. Cause they'll use that grill later to burn draft cards and etc. I just that it's so fascinating to me.

[Matt Koplik]

That is fascinating. I mean, there's a lot of stuff I read about sort of the original staging of things that went down with it that I'm like, cool, but why with White boy. Yeah, White Boys. Melbourne Moore singing lead, of course.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It was inspired by Diana Ross and the Supreme. And then what happened was, is that as they saying, and they started to spread out. You realize that they weren't wearing separate dresses.

[Robbie Roselle]

They were all in one dress.

[Matt Koplik]

One big red dress on top of a like, I would call it platform.

[Robbie Roselle]

But like it was like a floating. Yeah, because apparently they had to add a bar to it because they were. It was a. It was made out of mesh. And so originally they were going. Supposed to be in high heels. Again, Laurie Davis book Shout Out. So glad I bought it for $3.

[Matt Koplik]

That's as much as I'm gonna make for this episode.

[Robbie Roselle]

Correct. You're welcome. I'm glad. Take an ad break.

[Matt Koplik]

We got to take another one eventually.

[Robbie Roselle]

It was like fucking chicken wire, whatever, right. And so the heels were getting caught in it and like one wrong move and they all go over. Because it's one dress they add a bar to. They had added plastic to the bottom, but then they were just slipping. So they nixed the heels all together, gone plastic, stayed over the mesh, but added a bar to like hold onto. Because, like, they were flown out, basically, and they had no safety.

[Matt Koplik]

No safety whatsoever. That's again, the 60s and hair and Ms. Keaton. Oscar winner Diane Keaton was the soloist for Black Boys you can hear on the cast album.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And those three women are dressed sort of like. I don't know, how would you describe it in stereotypical get up for like black, like with afro wigs and things like that?

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Robbie Roselle]

What's fascinating, I watched for the first time today the Encores production, which is on YouTube. It is on the YouTubes and.

[Matt Koplik]

Wow.

[Robbie Roselle]

I did not enjoy it.

[Matt Koplik]

No. It's messy. Which ironically, it's ironic. It got good reviews and was rumored to go to Broadway.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah, well, but there were only four critics.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. But part of reason why it was rumored to go to Broadway is because it sold so well. Idina Menzel, she wasn't really famous at that point.

[Robbie Roselle]

She had come off of Wicked.

[Matt Koplik]

No, she hadn't.

[Robbie Roselle]

A Wicked hadn't happened yet.

[Matt Koplik]

This is 2001. This was May of 2008. So she had rent under her belt.

[Robbie Roselle]

That's it.

[Matt Koplik]

She'd come off of Wild Party and Aida. That was it. So she was like. She was.

[Robbie Roselle]

You're right.

[Matt Koplik]

There were some cool people in that show, though. Gavin Creel was in the ensemble.

[Robbie Roselle]

Duh. Huh.

[Matt Koplik]

Miriam Shore was doing Air.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah. And she was great.

[Matt Koplik]

She. She was great.

[Robbie Roselle]

Luther Creek and Tom Plotkin are the two leads.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Robbie Roselle]

Two names you do not hear anymore. No.

[Matt Koplik]

Plotkin was Willard in Footloose. That was his big one.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes. And he was one of the Wickersham Brothers.

[Matt Koplik]

He's a girl. Yes. And Kathleen Marshall did it. Did the production of Herod. Encore.

[Robbie Roselle]

Way too danced.

[Matt Koplik]

Way too danced. And, like, doesn't have any kind of flow. It's very. Stop. Starty.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I truly think the reason why anyone was interested in it moving was a Hair had not been on Broadway for over 20 years and there was a lot of excitement about seeing it again.

[Robbie Roselle]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

Because it did sell out the entire run.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And they're like, oh, there's money to be had. But then they're like, you know, now that we're looking at it, this production really wasn't that special.

[Robbie Roselle]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

And the reason why Herrick did come back to Broadway was because Diane Paulus was able to make something of it in the park and then was actually able to make it even more of something when it moved to Broadway. I remember.

[Robbie Roselle]

I agree.

[Matt Koplik]

When they announced it was going to Broadway, the thinking everyone had was because, you know, when things transfer, we all imagine it's just going to be exactly like it was and no one's going to reconfigure it for the new space.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So I was like, oh, they're just put astroturf on the. On the Hirschfeld stage and call it a day. That's gonna lame. And then when everyone went into the theater and there was like a truck on stage, carpets and all that stuff, I was like, oh, three thought. I'm like, yeah. Like when they put fun Home in the round and it's like, oh, it's not the same design.

[Robbie Roselle]

The original production had a chalk on stage for the band.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, that's fun. I didn't know that. Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

And the. The composer played piano in that. In the original pet. As I said, they were all on stage on opening night. So opening.

[Matt Koplik]

Opening night of Hair.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. What is it? 8. April 29th of 1968 at the Biltmore. Now the Samuel Friedman with that Manhattan Theater Club owns.

[Robbie Roselle]

Isn't that wild?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So anytime you go see a play at the Friedman, if you saw Cost of Living, or if you go to see the Calaboration, or if you saw, you know, Little Foxes with Laura Linney and.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure Did. Yep, yep.

[Matt Koplik]

I did too.

[Robbie Roselle]

In the correct.

[Matt Koplik]

Just know that's where Diane Keaton sang Easy to Be Hard and eventually Melbourne.

[Melba Moore]

Especially people who care about strangers who say they care about social injustice. Do you only care about the bleeding crowd?

[Matt Koplik]

If.

[Melba Moore]

How about a needing friend? I need a friend. How can people have no feeling? How can you. How can they ignore their friends?

[Matt Koplik]

Easy to be hard. So if you. If you do read the Season by William Goldman, which is like the bitchiest of books. I love it.

[Robbie Roselle]

It's really is.

[Matt Koplik]

He's so. He talks about Hair, you know, it's very like, ugh. The Broadway version, whatever it was all about when it was downtown. Fuck that. And one thing he talks about, because I guess they didn't do it. No, they didn't do it for off Broadway. There was no nudity off Broadway. That was added for Broadway.

[Robbie Roselle]

Correct.

[Matt Koplik]

And everyone assumes that it was a publicity stunt. And what it really was was Ragny and Rado had gone to a protest in Central park and people were taking. Men were taking off their clothes in protest.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm not sure what statement that makes, but whatever. I'm not bound by corporations and their clothes.

[Robbie Roselle]

Man, get these Levi's off of me.

[Matt Koplik]

No. I'll prove that nothing comes between me and my Calvins. But. So Ragni and Rado Come into rehearsal and they're like, nudity done. We want to do it.

[Robbie Roselle]

So they. Apparently they discussed it once and then it was never talked about again. And then in the first preview, three of them just stood up naked during that number. And lot of other cast members were like, what, what, what's happening right now? Yeah, because they never discussed it. And then slowly more and more of them because it was always optional.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So the, the word is that eventually producers started offering cast members more money.

[Robbie Roselle]

If they did a dollar fifty.

[Matt Koplik]

And some cast members said. There's one person who's quoted in the pap book, she was like, I, I will do it for free. Because getting naked for that little money makes me feel like a whore.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah, that's probably Laurie Davis, actually. Probably.

[Matt Koplik]

And not everyone did it. Keaton never did it.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right. Which she did it years later and something's gotta give.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure did. Her only new scene. Well, she, she suffered from bulimia at that time and so had major body dysmorphia. So like, I'm. I'm sure in her mind, if we are similar in any way, she's thinking herself, no one wants to see, see my naked body. And I'm not comfortable with it anyway. And you look at Diane Keaton at that time, I'm like, girl, they would have lined up around the block. Truly, you are stunning.

[Robbie Roselle]

But also, it's fascinating that she was in Hair and is probably the most covered up human in all of Hollywood.

[Matt Koplik]

1,000%.

[Robbie Roselle]

Always turtlenecks, gloves, hats, turtlenecks, like every.

[Matt Koplik]

She's just eyes she doesn't wear. Yeah, eyes and eyes and teeth she doesn't wear. She doesn't show skin ever. No, but she, she was in Hair for almost a year and then pieced out, I think around like January of 69 to do play It Again Sam, which ended up being a great career move because she got a Tony nomination that same year. The year the Hare was nominated, she had got a Tony nomination herself for that play. Got to be in the movie version of that play. And that also got her the Godfather and the rest is Oscar winning history.

[Robbie Roselle]

And also like Play It Again Sam was Woody Allen, which started like a long collaboration for her.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, that was a good career move for her. She got to make a lot of movies because of that.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But yeah, hair, like so hair ended up running the longest of any of those shows that season runs for four and a half years. Major cultural moment. Has multiple national tours. Sit down productions in Chicago. Goes to London immediately.

[Robbie Roselle]

They're celebrating it with huge concerts they did. One year. They did a huge concert on the Central Park Mall one year. I sent you the album of it. They did a full ass Mass at St. John the Divine, where the offertory again is 3,500. And that's how you say choice.

[Matt Koplik]

Choice. It's all choices.

[Robbie Roselle]

But they're doing, like, songs from Hair and also a mass that he has composed. And it's a full ass service that you can go to Spotify and listen to. It's called Divine Hair. This is. It spawned so many different albums of, like, cut songs. There's a whole album called Disinherited that are cut songs from Hair by that cast. London had two cast albums originally. Elaine Page is in one of them. She was in Cast B.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure was. Pre Evita.

[Robbie Roselle]

Huh? It's. It went everywhere.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. That. If you ever read articles about Elaine Paige's casting as Ava PERRON in like 77, the thing that everyone likes to say, we're like, she's not. She's not inexperienced. She was in Hair. But it's. But they don't list her as, you know, like an obvious choice. Right. They're like, you know, she was in Hair, she did a show. But like, it's Hair. Who even knows? Who even knows?

[Robbie Roselle]

Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

But the thing about Hair that's so interesting is it's one of those Broadway musicals like Fiddler, where it was successful everywhere it went.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is interesting considering it's. It feels so American. But I think because a. The music is a bop, a bop, all a bop. And the vibes of Hair are relatable all over the world, even if it's very specific to its American attributes. But it's the same thing with, like, Fiddler is so specific to Russia of that era, but its themes are so universal that it plays everywhere. I mean, the famous story goes when they.

[Robbie Roselle]

Japanese. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

When they went to Japan and they asked the creators on opening night, does America get this show?

[Robbie Roselle]

Isn't that wild?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I love it.

[Robbie Roselle]

I said you off mic and I'm gonna repeat it here for.

[Matt Koplik]

For the pod.

[Robbie Roselle]

All three people listening right now.

[Matt Koplik]

How dare you.

[Robbie Roselle]

Listen, my listenership is solid.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay.

[Robbie Roselle]

Some of these episodes are just. Just shy of being an audiobook.

[Matt Koplik]

And. What?

[Robbie Roselle]

Nothing. I'm thrilled to be here.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

It's that what really is great about it is the music is so malleable that you can almost do anything to it and not kill it. Much like casting Chicago, you can almost do anything. And it works. I agree, too, that newer albums that are like, Prettier or, like, better song. And cleaner. I prefer the grit of that original album to any of them.

[Matt Koplik]

I'll always prefer the Melbourne White Boys to anything.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's not even the most. The arrangements aren't even that extraordinary. It's just. It's the energy of. The authenticity of it.

[Robbie Roselle]

There's also eight musicians on that album that sound like 50. They sound so huge. And a lot of that is the orchestration, specifically the use of trumpet, which is such a. Interesting instrument to use for this show.

[Matt Koplik]

A rock musical.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes. And they use two. It's not just a trumpet. They have a section.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, the original orchestrations and arrangements. Again, I just said, like, not that exceptional for White Boys. And I mean that. But, like, it's still so inventive and wonderful and creative, just the way that it all comes together. Because so many times the original vocal arrangements are so simple.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But they're so effective.

[Robbie Roselle]

I'm trying to look up and see who wrote the orchestrations, and I wonder if, like, the band just created them.

[Matt Koplik]

It's entirely possible.

[Robbie Roselle]

Again, it's not credited again.

[Matt Koplik]

One of those things where it's like, I don't know, man. We were all high.

[Robbie Roselle]

The album won the Grammy.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure did.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Rightfully so.

[Robbie Roselle]

Can we talk about some of the people who were in later casts on Broadway?

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, please. Some of the. Some of our replacements.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah. Keith carradine.

[Matt Koplik]

Yup.

[Robbie Roselle]

Meatloaf. Mr. Loaf to you, Mr. Loaf, if you are nasty. Ben Vereen, who is on the Tony performance.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. With Heather McCray.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah. Who was a replacement. Joe Butler, Robin McNamara. Eddie Rambeau. Like, incredible people in this original first run and then a revival. So it closes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Oh. So I also. I want to say, speaking of Laurie Davis, Melba Moore talked about how she got to play Sheila. She. Because she was with it for a while.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And what happened was it was. I don't know. I don't know if she was. No, she wasn't a replacement Sheila. She. She got to become an understudy for it.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

So what happened was, was that Diane went in almost immediately because Kellogg was like, I'm off making cereal. Right. And Rice Krispies. Yes, exactly. And when. And when Diane left, they were auditioning women, and Heather gets to do it, and they're auditioning for, I guess, like, Heather's understudy. And Laurie Davis just says one day, she says very loudly, like, why are you not auditioning black women?

[Robbie Roselle]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

And she says, which I love. And she's. And she points to Melba. She Goes Melba sings Melba acts. Why not ask Melba? Like you've got, you've got this fucking, you know, volcano of a voice here singing three songs. Yeah, she could be Sheila. And so she, Melba auditions and gets to be the Sheila understudy. And again in Hair, you never know.

[Robbie Roselle]

When you're on and you're on.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And I know in the original cast album in the liner notes they talk about how Diane was the best Sheila in terms of like the acting and the authenticity, but that they all said you haven't lived unless you've heard 22 year old Melba Moore singing Easy to Be Hard.

[Robbie Roselle]

I mean, and that I do listen to the Jennifer Hudson Easy to Be Hard a lot. Because that is song.

[Matt Koplik]

It is very song.

[Robbie Roselle]

She, she's like, I will say, I will get out my staple gun and put it to the wall. Let's go.

[Matt Koplik]

Toot sweet.

[Robbie Roselle]

Toot sweet, if you will. Yeah, it's just those arrangements are spectacular. And I think the trumpet is probably there because the Hare Krishna section, which is because the trumpet is very much like has like a sort of revival sound to it in terms of. I almost said like Christian music, but it's not Christmas Christian music, but you know what I mean, Religious music.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so there's. So when I was. I asked my mom about what was her. What lasting impression has she had that original production. And she said it didn't really feel like Broadway. It felt very rough and again counterculture. But part of that was the idea that it all kind of felt a little improv like it. Which obviously some things were. But there was a lot of stuff that was set right. But it was, it was about the feeling that this was all just sort of happening spontaneously. And I think the arrangements help with that because it doesn't sound like we are coming together to think of what sounds most rock, but rather like we've got eight pieces here today. Like what are. Like what. What kind of sounds can we make with what we got today? Which is very of that culture of like the hippie culture of, I don't know, like we've got X, Y, Z. What kind of soup can we make with this?

[Robbie Roselle]

Found items.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And so there is a bit of a randomness to the orchestrations that way, which I. Which I think makes it sound so great.

[Robbie Roselle]

Fucking great. It's sort of like hair was sort of built the way Hedwig was built in that it didn't exist. And it started at like nightclubs and whatever and then became like a phenom Just because. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

The difference between Hair and Hedwig is that we have John Cameron Mitchell, who is like, on another level, brilliant. And so with him, it was always just like. And I'm not telling this to you, I know. You know, I'm telling this to the listeners because we have children who listen and don't know this.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sorry.

[Matt Koplik]

The years of workshopping Hedwig and all the clubs and whatnot was basically John meticulously knowing what works, writing new stuff, shaving it down, all this stuff, whereas.

[Robbie Roselle]

You have literally shaving it down.

[Matt Koplik]

And then you have Rado and Ragny who just come in and they're like, we found this in the street. Let's make it a song. And McDermott's like, God damn it, I got to write another iconic melody right now.

[Robbie Roselle]

He's like, oh, what is this lyric? Yep, it's another list.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, a lot. A lot of the lyrics. There are some songs in Hair and we haven't really talked about a lot of the songs specifically.

[Robbie Roselle]

We should.

[Matt Koplik]

We should. So, like, I'll use Frank Mills as an example, which is a brilliant use of melody because the lyrics don't rhyme. It's just a story. Yeah, It's a short story.

[Robbie Roselle]

It's almost like a sort of Laura Nero y Carole Kingy, a little bit folk ballad.

[Matt Koplik]

You know how Jodi Benson always talks about part of your world. It's just a monologue set to set to pitch that is literally Frank Mills, though it's actually a monologue set to a melody.

[Robbie Roselle]

100%.

[Melba Moore]

I met a boy called Frank Mills on September 12th, right here in front of the Waverly, but unfortunately I lost his address. He was last seen with his friend, a drummer. He resembles George Harrison of the Beatles, but he wears his hair tied in a small bow at the back.

[Matt Koplik]

That's the thing about Hair is that, like, even though it has aged, it is both aged and ageless.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah. I think, though, there was a time where it came back too soon. So when, after the original production closed, like, five years later, they were like, what if. And Hair came back for two months because people were like, oh, we've moved past this. What is next? And it would almost be like.

[Matt Koplik]

What.

[Robbie Roselle]

Year did Falsettos open?

[Matt Koplik]

92.

[Robbie Roselle]

92. Say it runs for four years, closes. And they try to bring it back in 2000, and we're sort of beyond that. And it's not quite. Or Rent. It's exactly bringing back rent, which they did.

[Matt Koplik]

They brought Rent back so soon after the Broadway production closed ended and everyone was Just like the world has changed.

[Robbie Roselle]

It was met with a shrug. Now, in 20 years, somebody will bring back Rent as the time capsule of that very specific time, and it will be lauded.

[Matt Koplik]

But you need every. Every show needs a breather and moment to be missed and then come back with fresh eyes.

[Robbie Roselle]

Which is why that the. When the revival of Hair came back for that Summer of Love, it didn't do very well at the St. James. I saw it. I saw that cast, too, also.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know why they went in that fear. That was a. St. James is a very large theater. It's very high theater.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sue Jamson.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I guess that's why. But, yeah, so, like, hair opens in 68 and closes in 72.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

And 72 to 77, those five years. It's a huge difference in terms of.

[Robbie Roselle]

Just, like, the culture, a huge shift in politics. Watergate has happened.

[Matt Koplik]

Watergate has happened. Yeah. By 77, the Vietnam War is over.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And also, the part of reason why I feel like they brought it back was because with Hair, there was a feeling that, okay, Broadway has now embraced rock music, which was something that was eluding it for all of the 60s.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello Dolly was the last Broadway cast album to go number one on the Billboard charts.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

That.

[Robbie Roselle]

Nothing since then but Let the Sun Shine in the Aquarius, the Fifth Dimension version of it, was the number one record.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so Hair did sell really well. Millions of copies and covers of songs.

[Robbie Roselle]

From the show, which probably some producer was like, what if they miss us? Yeah, they love us. They want us back.

[Matt Koplik]

There was a hope that Hayer would usher in an era of rock musicals. Alas, yes. And, in fact, if you read the season, like, one of the last notes of it, or maybe it's either that or the Joe Pat book. I can't remember which one. But no, it is. It is. I think it is the season where someone asks, like, do you think that Hair is gonna change Broadway? And the person in response says very cynically, of course it's gonna change Broadway. We're now gonna get a bunch of shitty rock musicals. Which is always the case. And I remember when Hamilton opened and everyone was asking Sondheim, like, do you agree that Hamilton is groundbreaking? And Sondheim was like, it's been on Broadway for three months.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He's like, you can't say something is groundbreaking until you see the impact it has. Afterwards, he's like, let's give it a few years to see what it inspires, if anything changes with it. He's like, I think it's great. I think it does a lot of really interesting stuff because you can't say groundbreaking until you see the overall impact. And in a way, Hamilton has had an impact. I would argue often for the negative. The number of people who have described the Bruno Revival of 1776 as a tryhard. Hamilton and I, and ironically, they are. It is connected to Hair in the sense of not only just 1776 being the same season as Hair, but also both being directed by Diane Paulus.

[Robbie Roselle]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Showing you sort of how all that goes. We're in the. We're in Paulus's flop era.

[Robbie Roselle]

But wait, do you know the other 1776 hair connection? Betty Buckley did both.

[Matt Koplik]

She did. She was the original Martha Jefferson and then she was a singing voice in the movie version.

[Robbie Roselle]

She sings Walking in Space.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. She is lip synced by an Asian actress.

[Robbie Roselle]

She sure is and is interesting, especially if you know Betty's voice.

[Matt Koplik]

It's there.

[Robbie Roselle]

It's. It's. She's holding those consonants like nothing I've ever seen.

[Matt Koplik]

The movie version is wild. Yes. I've only seen clips. I'm a big Milos Forman. Stan. One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest is a wonderful movie. And as many people know, Amadeus is in my top three.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Amadeus from. Probably the best adaptation. A film from a stage play, not musical stage play. But, you know, Hair is a musical with no real plot. It's more about a vibe. And from what I understand, they tried to really give it a.

[Robbie Roselle]

They really tried to give it a plot and.

[Matt Koplik]

But also keep the vibe as well. Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

But what's great about it is, like, there's Nell Carter, there's Lori Beachman. Laurie Beachman does a full turn while keeping her eyes on the camera the whole time.

[Matt Koplik]

Annie Golden's in it too.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes. And she. So she withdrew from the revival to go make the film.

[Matt Koplik]

Part of. We were talking about this with the. With the coming back too soon in the 70s.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It is the idea that rock musicals did not really happen. We got some musicals that incorporated some of the sound. Like the Wiz had a lot of Motown flavor to it, but it still had Broadway spice, Chorus Line, a lot of that 70s groove. But again, Broadway and Hair was like, not a Broadway sound. It was truly rock. And so. Oh, like, let's bring it back. Because no, no one has our sound. And everyone loves Hair anyway. Right. It was such a big hit. It's like, well, yes, we missed the sound. But the show has. Is not of the moment dated. And all the reviews at the time were like, it has shown its age. It's only been five years, but, like, my God, is it, you know, no longer of the moment. And then it was, you know, 25 years until it finally came back with first Encores and then the Actors Fund, and then I don't even.

[Robbie Roselle]

Because I don't think the encores was good enough. No, I think that. And, like, Kathleen Marshall was not the right person.

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[Robbie Roselle]

And she was the artistic director of Encores at the time, so it was her hiring herself to direct and choreograph hair. And. My God, did she choreograph it?

[Matt Koplik]

She sure did.

[Robbie Roselle]

They are Hullabaloon. They are. Well.

[Matt Koplik]

And hair does need movement. Yes. But. And like, if you watch the video of the Night of the 09 version, there is movement to it, but the choreography, it's. This is why not all choreography is the same.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

It. Everything has to adhere to the vibe of the show you're doing. It has to be based in character and storytelling. And the vibe of hair is meant to feel like it's all happening on the spot. Nothing is a bit. So you watch the choreography of that Paulist revival, and it's like, it's choreographed, but it's not like.

[Robbie Roselle]

And it's organically choreographed.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. It's not box, step, kick, turn, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Robbie Roselle]

No. And the Kathleen Marshall one looked like. Truly looked like. Like a TV variety show was doing, like, a 60s theme.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It was nostalgia. Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

But not good nostalgia.

[Matt Koplik]

And also very clean. Like, everyone looks like they're in a Gap ad.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sexy and clean. Yes. Huh. Because everybody's skinny. Yeah, everybody's wildly skinny and, like, ripped. Ripped and. But then every so often, like a Kevin Calhoun or Miriam Shore break through.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Miriam Shore is brilliant. You know, she was better than what she was handed.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah. The.

[Matt Koplik]

I feel. And I will say, like the Paulus revival. There are also, you know, our skinny Broadway beautiful. Like that show.

[Robbie Roselle]

But it also embraced size.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. There were. No, There. There were other sizes as well. I'm. What I'm saying is that, like. I'm not saying. I don't want to make it sound like the. Paula's version was perfect. Yeah. And like, on a pedestal of, like, inclusion of all different body types. There were. There were body types that weren't just the Broadway ripped, but it is telling that, like, our three leads were Broadway toned, like Will and Will Swenson showing a lot of skin, like, being, like, six pack and the right amount of chest hair. And first of all, sex on a Stick. Which was helpful, but sure, like, there's a reason why he launched from that production, because if he were schlubby looking, I don't think it would have happened for him.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is shitty to say, but it's honestly just the truth.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, I mean, there's. There was a tightness about that revival that I think made it palatable for a lot of modern audiences, but it's also the reason why my mom, like, walked out of the theater, and the first thing she said was, I don't know, they were wearing costumes.

[Melba Moore]

At one another, short of breath, Walking proudly in our winter coat Wearing smells and laboratories Facing a dying nation of moving favor, fantasy. Listening for the new Dupree.

[Robbie Roselle]

I also feel like Diane Paulus of that time was vaguely a hippie. Like, she's still a hippie.

[Matt Koplik]

Is she? I mean, she's a hippie who's benefited from the system. So I'm sure there's a lot of, like, cynicism. My. My takeaway with a lot of people who are rich and successful and happen for a while is they. Especially when their vibe, when they got successful was, I am of the people.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Similar to RuPaul or Ellen DeGeneres. It's like, sure, you were once of us, but you have now been rich and successful so long, you're not really of the people anymore, and that's fine. But you have to acknowledge that, like.

[Robbie Roselle]

That the Diane Paulus of Hair is the creator of the donkey show.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, 1,000%.

[Robbie Roselle]

The Diane Paulus of Jagged Little Pill is not the creator of the donkey show.

[Matt Koplik]

No. The Diane Paulus of Jagged Little Pill, 1776. That is the woman who made us Finding Neverland.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

That is the woman who sold her soul to Weinstein.

[Robbie Roselle]

She did give us a glitter tornado.

[Matt Koplik]

Someone asked once say one nice thing about Finding Neverland, and I said, they made a good use of glitter.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yep. I, as a longtime listener to the pod, I've heard you rail.

[Matt Koplik]

I have railed Finding Neverland in a way that it should thank me afterwards.

[Robbie Roselle]

Honestly, Twinks have not been railed as hard as you.

[Matt Koplik]

And finding I feng shui'd Finding Neverland's guts. I fucked it so hard on this podcast, I have feng shui'd Finding Neverland's guts. Whoopee. Honey boo boo. Child. That show has made me into a Dom top because I hate it so much, I want to stuff its face into a pillow.

[Robbie Roselle]

You have to promise not to fall in love with me.

[Matt Koplik]

I promise. I'm so dead inside. These days, don't even worry. I don't have the capacity to love.

[Robbie Roselle]

Well, I think maybe we should take a break.

[Matt Koplik]

Let's take a break.

[Melba Moore]

Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[Matt Koplik]

How do you mean?

[Melba Moore]

You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top.

[Robbie Roselle]

You're a Coolidge dollar.

[Matt Koplik]

You're the nimble. Welcome back. So we haven't really talked about most of the songs. We did Frank Milch, but, like, what's a song? And hair that you always gravitate towards?

[Robbie Roselle]

I love Where Do I Go. Huh? I think it's a stunning. Oh, good. He is eating on the pod.

[Matt Koplik]

Finally. We had to do it.

[Robbie Roselle]

It's tradition at this point.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. But I will chew away while you.

[Robbie Roselle]

Talk tradition, which is, of course, the Japanese song from Fiddler on the Roof. I love Where Do I Go. I think that the melody of it's beautiful. The lyrics of it are stunning. I also love all the setting of Shakespeare that is used through the second half of the show. Eyes look your last and what a Piece of Work is Man.

[Matt Koplik]

Is that from Hamlet?

[Robbie Roselle]

What a Piece of Work is Man is directly from Hamlet. Eyes like youe Last is Romeo and Juliet, the scene where they're killing themselves and just that they're happening at all. In a show that's essentially like drugs and sex and free love, like Shakespeare suddenly, like, appearing is. It's like that highbrow metric that's on. What is that? New York Magazine. You know what I mean? Because, like, it shouldn't be there, but it works perfect. Especially in the flesh failures. The eyes look your last. Arms take your last embrace.

[Matt Koplik]

I think what it does is there's. I mean, there's this sort of stigma. Well, for. I mean, there's a stigma for everything. Right. And so we think about. Or at least I would say the audience would go into hair thinking like, oh, these dumb hippies who just get high and don't have thoughts. It's like, oh, no. Actually, half of them have read Shakespeare.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

The other thing about these hippies is. And the show kind of mentions this a bit, a lot of them come from, like, decent homes. It's more. It's. A lot of the hippie movement were people who benefited from the norm and from the man and kind of looked in the system and looked around and were like, I don't like any of this. Like, yes, I benefit. But, like, look at it was also a younger generation getting information about the rest of the world and how everything else worked in the world. And Going like, that's not okay. Like, why do I get to live in this comfort? That's weird. And sort of making us taking a stand against the system of America by going against the grain. And so people go into. Into the theater and like, oh yeah, the dumb hippies. And it's like, well, actually the dumb hippies are quoting Shakespeare. Where do I go? Follow the children, children where do I go? Follow their smiles. Is there an answer in their sweet faces that tells me why I live and die? Follow the wind song Follow the thunder Follow the neon and yawn lover's eyes.

[Melba Moore]

Down to the gutter.

[Robbie Roselle]

What's really interesting about the score for me too is that while like the folly score is a lot of pastiche. This is not pastiche.

[Matt Koplik]

It is.

[Robbie Roselle]

It lives in the lane of like folk. Like Electric Blues is basically a mamas and papa song. The don't put it down Best one around is like a full country western song. Frank Mills is a full ballad. Like they all sort of co. Mingle and fell out of this guy's fingers right. One day. Fascinating to me that he is so facile in every style he chooses to write in. And the vocal arranging, because the harmonies are tight, not that they're always sung tight.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, with that original cast. Yeah, yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Let's just say that cast played fast and loose with.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm very pleased that we have both Gavin Creel and Will Swenson singing Going down on record. Because Jerome Ragny. Not the best vocalist in the world.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And I love Going Down. I think that song is a fucking bop. This is my doom, my humiliation.

[Robbie Roselle]

Anyway. Yeah, it's very. Some. In some ways it's reminiscent or of it inspired like a lot of like Spring Awakening and stuff like that. Like, which is another rock musical in its way. It's just the Doors. The Doors. That Hair has opened.

[Matt Koplik]

Hair and Gia got opening all the doors.

[Robbie Roselle]

They're the only two in Human Hair.

[Matt Koplik]

There are four doors and they are all opened by Gia Gun and Gia.

[Robbie Roselle]

Gunn in a 40 foot long. 4040 inch long wig of human hair.

[Matt Koplik]

She's feeling her oath. Let her feel her oath.

[Robbie Roselle]

Let her feel my own.

[Matt Koplik]

Let her feel my oath.

[Robbie Roselle]

Okay. I'm feeling my own.

[Matt Koplik]

Subtle.

[Melba Moore]

Good morning starshine, the earth says hello. You twinkle above us, we twinkle below. Good morning starshine, you lead us along.

[Robbie Roselle]

Let's talk about your listening habits for a second because do you. Do you listen to playlists a lot or do you listen to like shows front to back?

[Matt Koplik]

I go back and forth. I. And like I'M a faggot.

[Robbie Roselle]

So like I'm aware.

[Matt Koplik]

I know you're aware. You're literally staring at my bookshelf.

[Robbie Roselle]

But that's what I'm staring at.

[Matt Koplik]

But so I like, I'll go on the treadmill.

[Robbie Roselle]

Uh huh.

[Matt Koplik]

And I'll listen to pop music. But sometimes I'm like, you know what really does it for me is just like a boppy musical theater score with a structure to it.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like I will listen to like.

[Robbie Roselle]

A Hairspray or a Legally Blonde.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. I'll also do the original chorus line.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

The opening. Because it's especially. Especially when I'm starting on the treadmill and I have to run for a bit. It's a good way to begin. And then it gets you pumped. I'll also listen to my recording of in from Carrie. Because that's just. It's four and a half minutes of non stop energy.

[Robbie Roselle]

I'm well aware.

[Matt Koplik]

So it's. Yeah. But like from like if I'm like, I got four minutes left. I need to get half a mile out in these. In these four minutes. I'm like, okay. And here we go.

[Robbie Roselle]

Someday, Someday.

[Matt Koplik]

Keep those bodies thin. I love it. So stupid.

[Robbie Roselle]

She's gonna sing that in some pumps. My gym teacher also wore pumps. I miss him.

[Matt Koplik]

And a white. And a white power. And I miss them. You know, we all looked like Charlotte Dunwell's in high school and did what she could do with that insane body with no spine.

[Robbie Roselle]

I actually did. Then I got hungry and.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I got hungry. That's why I'm eating.

[Robbie Roselle]

So hungry.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

An apple.

[Matt Koplik]

Which, like the hair. If I'm at the gym and I'm listening to Hair.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I honestly probably will listen to it all the way through if I'm not on the treadmill.

[Robbie Roselle]

What is your favorite song in the score? The Apple.

[Matt Koplik]

The apple of my eye.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

There's a lot. There's one I can't say the title of.

[Robbie Roselle]

Really? Can you say 35 00? No, no. What?

[Matt Koplik]

I'll say in a colored spade.

[Robbie Roselle]

Oh yeah. I mean you. That's the title of it. So. I know I can say that.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. I just makes. I. It always makes me feel uncomfortable.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure. I mean let's.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is the point.

[Robbie Roselle]

But let's talk about that because like a lot of these songs are making points and like he swung in on a rope and like lands in front of all these white people. And again, like I said, the front half of the score is I am songs.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, and I think Sodomy comes before that song.

[Robbie Roselle]

Correct.

[Matt Koplik]

So the whole point of sodomy is it's a. And it's a joke song. But then the whole point of the end of it is, like. Because he's listing sodomy, masturbation, blah, blah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Blah, while they're all in religious poses.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And he's saying, like, why do these words sound nasty? Is it because of the connotations to what they mean? The words themselves are just words, and the actions themselves are not bad.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

But, you know, America's a very puritanical country, so.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then it goes into.

[Robbie Roselle]

And that's also a great rhyme. Patasty and nasty.

[Matt Koplik]

So good.

[Robbie Roselle]

Into colored spade.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Which is a list song of all.

[Robbie Roselle]

The slurs, the pejoratives. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then stereotypes of black men.

[Robbie Roselle]

Correct.

[Matt Koplik]

Shoeshine boy, things like that. Elevator operator.

[Robbie Roselle]

And shoeshine boy comes back later in a. A Blinken.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

So, yeah. And it's great music.

[Matt Koplik]

Also wonderful arrangements because those trumpets come in at the end. They decided. And similar to sodomy, it's. You know, it's. It's the list, and it's sort of. It's both kind of calling out these words, these. These pejoratives. They don't really mean anything.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They're just attached to stigmas that you've put onto me.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And if I don't give them any clout, who the fuck cares? It's similar how we in the queer community, like I literally just did five minutes ago, we take back words for ourselves. Like, I take back the word faggot.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Because if I. If I give it less power, anytime someone throws it at me, I'm like, okay, go fuck yourself. What do I care? Like, okay, yes, I am a gay man. Anything. Like, what else you got, bitch?

[Robbie Roselle]

Truly?

[Matt Koplik]

Like, what?

[Robbie Roselle]

Truly.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm like, what else is in your wheel? What is in your armory? Like, I don't fucking care.

[Robbie Roselle]

So do better.

[Matt Koplik]

Do better with your vocabulary, baby. How would you be a little more specific and find something that really hurts my feelings? Like, John Mulaney has that bit where he talks about how teenagers are really good at insults because they actually find something specific. That man's got feminine hips. Stop it. I'm sensitive about that. That's sort of me.

[Robbie Roselle]

I do have feminine hips.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Oh, he clearly drinks coffee. His teeth are less white than three weeks ago. I know. Stop. If there's, like, one song that I probably listen to the most, I don't. You know what it is? It's on the original cast Recording it is like the very first five songs, like, in a row.

[Robbie Roselle]

Aquarius into Donna Donna. Into Sodomy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Into Colored Spade.

[Matt Koplik]

What is it?

[Robbie Roselle]

And Manchester.

[Matt Koplik]

It's Aquarius. Donna Hasheesh College, Manchester, England. Those first six. Yeah, it's. For me, it's like one big old short story. Like one, one, one act play.

[Robbie Roselle]

And what's your skip song on the album?

[Matt Koplik]

Because you're saying, like, I don't skip, I'm black. Because it goes right into Ain't Got no. Which I'm obsessed with.

[Robbie Roselle]

Can I tell you as an actor, hardest lyrics I've ever had to learn in my life.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, ain't got no Nonsense reprise. Into air like nonsense. And there's no.

[Robbie Roselle]

Like that. A bombs, H bombs, B bombs, Q bombs, Chinese checks, induced vintage Italianas, Polox, Germans use do's ups and downs. And then.

[Matt Koplik]

And then. Right.

[Robbie Roselle]

And you're like, shit, pop up, pop off popcorn Popsicle.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, there's.

[Robbie Roselle]

You have no skip songs.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't think I have a skip song. Yeah. No. Every fucking song, I'm just like, fuck me like me sideways. So good. Baby, Baby is one where, like, that's a long game because you have to wait for Lori Davis to come in 100%. And then it stops being a slight. Like if you're. If you don't know the song and you're impatient. You listen the first 40 seconds you're like, okay. But then she becomes in. And then they got the Happy birthday, baby, Happy birthday to you.

[Robbie Roselle]

Bang, bang, perfect.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, you know what? The bed.

[Robbie Roselle]

But that's not really so interesting. It's in some productions. And that's what I mean by. It's like chess, because it comes, it goes. Things you can do in bed. It's another fucking list song. Right. But this one's about a bed. And it's only because they had one that was built for the Off Broadway production where there were two other songs. One was called Climax and the other one's name is Too Long and I can't remember it, but it's on the Off Broadway album.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think it's.

[Robbie Roselle]

It's just when they do. It's a How come.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And when they did it in the Broadway version, it was covering when Sheila and Claude get together.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah. I mean, that's what it was actually written to be. Yeah. But it's also like.

[Matt Koplik]

It wasn't in the revival. The bed was. Yeah, it's not.

[Robbie Roselle]

It's. It's a very much. Talk about a skip song.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Yeah, the one Skip song, and it comes right before Flesh Failures. Let the Sunshine in, which. So it's sort of like there's that quote on the Nanny going back to, like, LP records. And, you know, they talk about Streisand and Funny Girl all the time. And Fran Drescher says, so you gotta listen. You gotta get through Henry street if you want to make it to people.

[Robbie Roselle]

Correct. Not wrong.

[Matt Koplik]

Not wrong. But you just. You know that you're in for a bad one when it goes, mmm, the bed. And you're like, oh, God. But everything else. Yeah. No Skips. Love it so dearly.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah. It's just excellent writing. It's also very interesting to me that these writers wrote a phenomenon and never managed to recapture that.

[Matt Koplik]

Gault McDermott got the closest with two gentlemen, but that wasn't even a phenomenon. That was just popular for a moment.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah, a moment.

[Matt Koplik]

And I don't think his score for Two Gentlemen is nearly as good as Hare. It's not the only one I like. Is Night Letter so divine.

[Robbie Roselle]

Everybody likes Night Letter, but only when.

[Matt Koplik]

Ms. Renee does it. I mean, yes, speaking of Kathleen Marshall.

[Robbie Roselle]

But speaking of the park.

[Matt Koplik]

Speaking of the park.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Hair in the Park. Two Gentlemen in the park.

[Robbie Roselle]

There was just. Must be something so magical about sitting under the stars as hair is unfolding.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I know on opening night it rained when they started doing Let the Sunshine in, and it was like. Yeah. You couldn't buy a better, you know, symmetry.

[Robbie Roselle]

Diane did a concert version of the Cape. Man in the park sure did. That. I wish I had seen.

[Matt Koplik]

I heard it was garbage.

[Robbie Roselle]

Oh, Natasha was the lead.

[Matt Koplik]

Ms. Diaz.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. She did it on Broadway.

[Robbie Roselle]

I didn't know she did it. No, but they bumped her up and she was the mother.

[Matt Koplik]

I. I don't know what it was like for the cast. I know. I know a few people who saw it who did not care for it.

[Robbie Roselle]

I see.

[Matt Koplik]

Because I know that it was. They. They reworked it a bit. A lot. Yeah. And the idea was, if this works, we'll go.

[Robbie Roselle]

We're gonna move it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Like Hair. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And it didn't work.

[Robbie Roselle]

No. I saw the original production on Broadway, and that definitely did not work.

[Matt Koplik]

So that had a Bob Crowley set design.

[Robbie Roselle]

That set was something.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. A lot of. Yeah, that. His sets are usually something.

[Robbie Roselle]

No, but, like, everything that you saw on set stage was replicated in a drop so that it was like you were looking at it from two angles at the same time. And then, like, a full scale, like, relief map of Puerto Rico. Came in and she just sat on it, singing a lullaby to her two children, like on full cities and houses.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, if Alice Ripley can feel the shadow orgasms of Emily Skinner's finger blast, why not this?

[Robbie Roselle]

Whomst among us hasn't.

[Matt Koplik]

Who has not felt the shadow orgasms.

[Robbie Roselle]

Of Emily Skinner while she's, like, screaming.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, they're both screaming. Listen, I'd be screaming an F2 if I wasn't getting mine.

[Robbie Roselle]

I want mine.

[Matt Koplik]

I want mine. Where is mine?

[Robbie Roselle]

Okay, so.

[Matt Koplik]

But hair.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

If someone's doing hair.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

What are some things they should keep in mind when they're attacking this material?

[Robbie Roselle]

Oh, that's it. So what I've always found interesting is, like, the people who do hair all tend to fall in love with each other very quickly because they. They suddenly cease to be actors and become, like, the tribe. You know what I mean? Like, there are sleepovers. There are. There's, like. It's almost unhealthy in a way.

[Matt Koplik]

Actors being unhealthy.

[Robbie Roselle]

You don't say. Never heard of it. But, like. Like, they were sleeping over in the theater at the Biltmore. Like. Like that. They. They were a family, you know?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

It wasn't a job, even though, clearly, because they weren't showing up. Yeah. But it wasn't a job to them. And. And then, like, this, the last revival, like, that's what started Broadway for equality, where, like, they literally marched in Washington and, like, were very passionate about causes that are important to you and I. The gays.

[Matt Koplik]

It was also the show that made Gavin Creel come out publicly and good. Yeah. And he did it ever. So drop the Mikey of just being on the steps of Jonathan Groff.

[Robbie Roselle]

Like, who? Huh?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Frankly, one would watch. Two, I don't know if I'd watch. Did anybody need flashcards, is the question. But good that he did.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

And he led a movement.

[Matt Koplik]

He did.

[Robbie Roselle]

He and Rory o'. Malley.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, he moved me.

[Robbie Roselle]

Oh, that's beautiful.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. What. What I did to finding Neverland's guts. Great could happened to me.

[Robbie Roselle]

It was in a gym sauna. Subscribe.

[Matt Koplik]

Let's not talk about. Let's not talk about bub, shall we?

[Robbie Roselle]

It's actually called Only flans because he bakes on it. Okay. So, God, the question is, what should they keep? Yeah. I would say to not be too pretty with it. It's not a pretty story. And they are not songs to be sung prettily.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

It's more about intention. You should do the Robbie Roselle style singing, which is acting.

[Matt Koplik]

Ah.

[Robbie Roselle]

In that so not singing. Yeah, correct. I do have a hit album. Please stream it.

[Matt Koplik]

Um, but anytime you go. Guys, if you ever go out in public with Robbie Roselle, and I don't. I don't mean, like, oh, like going out to, like, a show. I mean, like, literally any place. Any place in this world, and you're saying, thanks, Robbie Brazell for more than 30 minutes. How many times will he tell people he has an album? And the truth is, it works because you have a good number of streams.

[Robbie Roselle]

I do.

[Matt Koplik]

So he. He does guerilla marketing.

[Robbie Roselle]

I'm about to hit a million, which is very weird because I'm not famous.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, I got on this podcast, so clearly you've got to be somebody.

[Robbie Roselle]

I had no time, so I carved out a day. I skipped the piano lesson to be here today.

[Matt Koplik]

You're very welcome.

[Robbie Roselle]

But Dr. Rashad is doing a talk back after.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay.

[Robbie Roselle]

Anyway, it's true. Like, Matt and I will go to the old glass house or something, and if somebody will walk by and say something weird and loud, I will just be like, thank you so much. During my album.

[Matt Koplik]

I will also literally grab people's phones and give. And make them give me five stars on the podcast.

[Robbie Roselle]

Good. Yeah. Honestly, anything that works, you know.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. We do what we.

[Robbie Roselle]

We do what we got to do, we deserve.

[Matt Koplik]

I deserve everything in this world.

[Robbie Roselle]

If you were directing hair.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Robbie Roselle]

What would you give your actors for preparation as? Like, here's sort of your vision board.

[Matt Koplik]

I would probably find, like, news reels and whatnot and TV segments just to give, like, an actual visual to it and, yeah, obviously photos and things like that. I would. I don't know, like, I'm not super boned up on the films of that era. A lot of. Because a lot of the films of the 60s weren't really covering that.

[Robbie Roselle]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

But I guess what I could say is, you know, find like, three or four films of that decade that were very pivotal for that generation. So, like Bonnie and Clyde, the Graduate.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And. Or. And, like, actually, like, giving like, a five minute clip of Ben Hur from 1959 and then being like. And then six years later, we have Bonnie and Clyde, the Graduate, Midnight Cowboy. Like, imagine being. Yeah, imagine being 10 years old and having to deal with Ben Hur, four hours of Charlton Heston's why Not. Why Not? And then finally, like, when you're a teenager, like, these really huge movies that change everything, come into your life, and, like, that affects you in a really specific kind of way. So I. Yeah, I think I would show that. And just to give the. The impact of ever changing minds and innocence and expansion. But also, like with that group in Hair sometimes feels like there's a little bit of misused energy of the tribe. And that's sort of, I think, what makes Claude's story compelling. Even if we don't agree with his choice, even if we're not entirely sure why he makes the choice, he does ultimately make a choice. As one man with a dungeon used to say, I made, I chose and my world was shaken. So what?

[Robbie Roselle]

So what?

[Matt Koplik]

The choice may have been mistaken. The choosing or Nat. And that's sort of Claude's thing is, like, no one in the show makes a choice. No, they're empathetic and they're. And they're knowledgeable to an extent and they protest, but they don't really do anything else. And something that's always sort of nagging Claude. It's why we were the only. He's the only one. We get, like flashbacks of from his family, of just the constant reminder of, what are you even doing? Like, sure, you're against this, but, like, what are you for? And what are you. What are you going to do to change anything?

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Ultimately, his answer is to go to war. It may not be the right answer, but it is an answer. And I think that's something to remind the cast of. Like, these are a bunch of people who have all the. All the feelings and all the right thoughts, but have absolutely no idea what to do with any of it.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes, absolutely. It's just. That's why I said he feels like an outsider looking in and trying to figure out how. How to become this. Especially, you know, like Rodgers and Hammerstein wrote, you've got to be carefully taught. Right. And so you. You behave how your parents, et cetera, teach you. And so Claude was probably brought up to, like, you respect the President, you respect America, America first, whatever. Like, whatever that was at that time. And so, yes, you will go to fight for your country just like your dad did in World War II or, you know, 100%. That is a fascinating dichotomy to sort of unravel, especially in a two hour musical review.

[Matt Koplik]

Mm, absolutely.

[Robbie Roselle]

What do you think hair changed.

[Matt Koplik]

In terms of theater or the world?

[Robbie Roselle]

Let's. Let's start micro and say theater. Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

I think Hair was another step forward for the concept musical because we had Cabaret.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Which was.

[Robbie Roselle]

We had Love life. And then.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, love life. Yes. And lady in the Dark. Well, shows where the concept dictated the writing. So they still had stories, love Life was, you know, reviews, but still, like, there were stories, there was. There was plot to be followed, but it was dictated by a certain structure that came from an idea. Lady in the Dark only singing during dream sequences. And it's all a dream sequence was come from therapy sessions.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Cabaret, you know, songs in limbo, songs in the cabaret, songs in real life. But still a plot. Two different plots.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah, like a full ass plot.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Hair has like almost no plot. It's really just the claw thing. And even that is thin.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah. I mean, there's like Sheila got a shirt and Burger rips it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Like.

[Matt Koplik]

And like a lot of other characters have things we learn about them that don't come to anything.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right. Like I'm in love with Mick Jagger. How nice.

[Matt Koplik]

But which also kind of leans into the idea of, you know, these kids with a lot of ideas and a lot of poetry that don't do anything with it. So, you know, we learn about all these characters and like, it's. And for what it's like. Yeah, well, what's any of it for?

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So it is that it is a concept in that sense of not a lot happens. And it's more about the vibes. It's the music which leads us into Company and Follies and. And shows like that where it's more about the feeling.

[Robbie Roselle]

You like a mood.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, it's a mood. Exactly. So I. And. And of course, obvious. The obviousness of rock music.

[Robbie Roselle]

So what do you consider the heir apparent to Hair.

[Matt Koplik]

In terms of, like.

[Robbie Roselle]

Musically, is it Rent?

[Matt Koplik]

Probably in terms of channeling the sound of that era into a musical theater score. The difference is that Rent uses a lot of different genres, whereas Hair and Harry uses other genres. But I mean, like, Rent uses also some classical music. It uses some musical theater elements. And Rent also tries to put all of that into a musical theater structure, whereas Hair couldn't give two shits. Right. But yeah, I guess Rent is the closest heir apparent. I don't think there's really been a show like Hair since. In terms of.

[Robbie Roselle]

That worked.

[Matt Koplik]

That worked, yeah. Channeling the sound of the moment, not really having much of a musical theater structure, just sort of being a vibe which is also kind of what makes it evergreen is because there's not much else like it that works. I mean, if there were 10 other shows like it that came since that, that went even further and stronger and bolder and better, Hair would not be as, you know, played today.

[Robbie Roselle]

So what? Yeah, I mean, that's. The next question is why do you think it's endured that.

[Matt Koplik]

All that. Yeah. I think it's endured a. Because of the music. Music. I cannot underestimate how important good music is.

[Robbie Roselle]

So wildly listenable.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I think in a weird way, because it is a bit of a blank canvas of storytelling, there's a lot you can project onto it.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. When. When something's not really giving you specifics. It's. It's the, it's the Bella Swan syndrome of Bella Swan in Twilight is written so blandly with so little detail about her.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Every young woman in America who read it could picture herself 100% same thing with. You know, not to drag them too much, but why I'm kind of post Evan Hansen. I've been a little anti Pasc and Paul as I have found their writing to become more general. The lyrics are not as specific as they used to be.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And so like things like this is me. Like, yeah, of course that became an international phenomenon. It doesn't mean anything. It's. It's. It's tea leave teabag metaphors put on a billboard with glitter and everyone's like, haha, it me. And I'm like, yes. When you say I'm a person with arms and legs and I. And I have a mouth, sure. You may like, you know, cut off 0.05% of the population, but the rest of the world is like, yes, that's me.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And there's like a. There's. There's specificity to the songs, but the vibe of Hair is still rather general. Yeah. And I think that helps a lot.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Keeping it malleable. You can shapeshift it as the times continue. Why do you think it survived?

[Robbie Roselle]

I think that cast album and it having so many hit songs fly out from it really kept it in the zeitgeist. And also the nude scene for. For how brief it was. Whatever kept people talking about it. Because like we knew Hair probably as the nude musical even though it was fleeting. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

That was like one of the first things we ever heard about when we talked about musicals with anybody. Well, oh, what's this musical?

[Matt Koplik]

Hair.

[Robbie Roselle]

Oh, there's a nude scene. Right. And so because that was the first of its kind in that way, it is it and sort of the. The mythos built around it. That's. I think what has really kept it afloat. But that, that that cast album being as good as it is is truly what keeps people coming back to it and returning to the.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, you're actually really right about the. The nude scene because that's always been something that stuck with it. There's an episode of Cheers where Woody Harrelson's character is doing a production of Hair, and because he's an aspiring actor now, and he doesn't know really anything about it, and Kirstie Alley's like, oh, like, are you. Are you nervous about the nude scene? He's like, yeah, sure, stop, you know, pulling my chain. She's like, no, I did Hair in college. Like, there's a nude scene.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Woody, like, freaks out. He looks at the script and he sees that it's there. He's like, oh, God. And then everybody's all up in arms, like, kirstie Alley, you went nude in college? She's like, I don't know. I was in Hair. It's fine.

[Robbie Roselle]

And, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So that's something that's always attached to it, for sure. And what's so interesting is there's a lot of other shows that had even more nudity than Hair.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

That never really. I don't know, we don't, like, really apply it to those shows. Like, I literally just covered love, valor, compassion. And I know at the time, the male nudity in it was, like, a big thing about it.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

But when we talk about that show now, it's not something that's at the forefront of people's minds.

[Robbie Roselle]

No. Because it, like, that barrier had been broken.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

You know what I mean? Who? That hymen was broken, darling.

[Matt Koplik]

But, yeah, I think because Hair was. And Hair wasn't the first show to have nudity on stage, but I think it was the first show to have male nudity.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And definitely en masse. In a musical.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes. In a musical.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

That's, like, the biggest thing I remember a couple, maybe a decade ago now, I was in London and I saw a musical version of Mrs. Henderson Presents. Did you see that film?

[Matt Koplik]

I saw the film, yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Which is all about nudity. Yeah. And on stage specifically. And I didn't know that going in. I had not seen the film. And it was a fine musical. Tracy Bennett. Sure, sure. But I was like, okay, what ground are you breaking? None, None, None.

[Matt Koplik]

If it's a part of the story, if it works, then it works. But there's so little I find that's, like, shocking anymore. So I'm more like, keep me invested in what's going on on stage. Don't worry about shocking me. I'll find something shocking because of how it relates to the plot, you know, or the character.

[Robbie Roselle]

Every review mentioned the nude scene and they mentioned Toma Horgan. They rarely talked about the cast.

[Matt Koplik]

Rarely. Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

And if they did, they talked about it as a mass.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, that happens a lot with these shows where it's ensemble based and the show itself is so groundbreaking in what it's doing. So, like, if you read the original reviews of west side Story that are rather complimentary, no one really talks about the actors all that much. Right. It's sort of like, yeah, like, so and so is pretty good.

[Robbie Roselle]

Jerome Robbins did this. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Cheetah gets a couple of mentions, but it's mostly for her dancing. Carol Lawrence is, you know, given a mention. Is like one of the better singers in the cast, but still not great. Everyone's just like, it's not about the actors, it's about what the team has done.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's definitely the vibe with Hair.

[Robbie Roselle]

As well, because it's not a star vehicle or a star driven vehicle. And it was like, truly a bunch of noobs.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Some of whom went on to great success, some of whom never did.

[Robbie Roselle]

Truly, like, merrily. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

And. But like, I'm trying to think of, like, another fully ensemble musical where there's not a lead, per se. And. But Hair is like, it's. We can talk about it and have at great length, but like, the. The average person isn't like, oh, God, Melba Moore. Am I right? You know?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

It's just the tribe of the American tribal love. Rock musical.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I will say with the revival, and I kind of think that points to how our Broadway fandom culture has changed. When. I know when the revival came out, it definitely became about, like, picking out tribe members that people liked. I remember that was not like Will Swenson definitely, like, launched from that. That brought Gavin Creel to a new level because he had been away for a while.

[Robbie Roselle]

Same thing with Casey.

[Matt Koplik]

Casey Levy.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then Allison Case. That was like a big thing for her. Patina. Not Patina Miller, but.

[Robbie Roselle]

I mean, Patina did it in the park.

[Matt Koplik]

She did it in the park. Sasha Allen.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sasha Allen. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

People started having fans of the show started having, like, their favorite tribe members and their own fandoms. And I don't think that's.

[Robbie Roselle]

Social media didn't exist.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm saying it's not. I don't think that's a statement on the revival so much. It's the statement on where we got to.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I wonder if when Hair came out, if there. If we had a kind of social media media, if that would have happened.

[Robbie Roselle]

Or if, I mean, There were like hair groupies.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

And I know that some of them like apparently snuck on stage in the nude scene sometimes and stuff.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well then through all the audience interaction and sort of the whole go with the vibe flow of it, I'm sure it was very easy to do so and whatever. On in the revival, no one snuck on stage to get nude. But you were allowed to go on.

[Robbie Roselle]

Stage and dance at these. Yeah. And they would live stream the dance party. Party on Facebook Nightly.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

Which was a good marketing ploy.

[Matt Koplik]

It made you feel included. And it ran. It ran for over a year and.

[Robbie Roselle]

Then came back for the Summer of Love.

[Matt Koplik]

Summer of Love. I also, I also remember when it was closing, the fandom was like took to Times Square to try to save it and I was like, guys, sometimes shows just close and like this revival ran for over a year. That's great. Revivals don't usually run that long.

[Robbie Roselle]

Correct.

[Matt Koplik]

They'll usually do really well for about four or five months. Business starts slip and then they close up shop before they lose anymore. To run over 500 performances is amazing. Let it be what it was. Let it be the be in.

[Robbie Roselle]

It's also just interesting to see like, because that last cast launched. A lot of people have come out of that last cast and gone on to like really wonderful things. I would love to know what like the next iteration of Hair, who that would be and what it would launch. Because like now I'm thinking about like Bonnie Milligan and Hair. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

But she's a star now. You know what I mean?

[Matt Koplik]

She is a star now.

[Robbie Roselle]

She'll win a Tony this year.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm pretty sure of it.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

She's definitely the front runner. It's. We are recording this in early January. We don't know what's going to go down.

[Robbie Roselle]

You've just watched Christmas in the Square.

[Matt Koplik]

I have, but. But I feel very confident saying that Bonnie is a lock for a nomination. Currently the frontrunner to win. Obviously anything can happen. I'm sure they're gonna add like a three hour ballad for Ruthie and Miles and Sweeney. And now all of a sudden the beggar woman becomes the Tony winning role.

[Robbie Roselle]

But Bonnie Milligan is on my hit debut album.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure she is.

[Robbie Roselle]

Thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

She sure is. Robbie.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

This has been lovely.

[Robbie Roselle]

This is amazing.

[Matt Koplik]

It's been wonderful. I think we're at a good spot before we start. Truly trailing off and going into Jennifer Lewis, into Jennifer Lewis and Christine Baranski's choreoses.

[Robbie Roselle]

Uh huh.

[Matt Koplik]

As you know, you've got A game?

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Same game, different titles.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yep. Sure. Have not. I actually did not prep for this.

[Matt Koplik]

Neither did I. Who Lives, who Dies? Jeanine Tesori and Six Degrees of Sally Murphy.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

They are both. Just Six degrees of both women. Now we have to go with the original production of Hair. I'm so sorry. Which means we have the original cast, the original creative team, and we have to connect it to both Janine Tesori and Sally Murphy. I will start with Tom o' Horgan directing. Because we can't do Replacements either. Tom o' Horgan directing. Directed the original Jesus Christ Superstar.

[Robbie Roselle]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Which had. Let's go with Ben Vereen. He's. He's famous. So Tom Horgan into Jesus Christ Superstar with Ben Vereen. Ben Vereen did Pippin with. Careful How We Tread Now. Okay. Ann Reinking. She was in the ensemble of Pippin.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes. Uh huh.

[Matt Koplik]

Ann Reinking, Sure.

[Robbie Roselle]

She.

[Matt Koplik]

Starred in and choreographed in the revival of Chicago. Say that's four.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes. We have to get to Sorry. Or to Sally.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I don't think I'm gonna get there. It's gonna be difficult. I might have to go back. I'm gonna go back. I'm going back. Okay, sure. We're gonna try this again.

[Robbie Roselle]

Jesus Christ Superstar.

[Matt Koplik]

God damn it. Okay, sorry.

[Robbie Roselle]

Just.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry. Story. Or Sally.

[Robbie Roselle]

Right. Yeah, but Sasori is the easier one.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Robbie Roselle]

Because there's so many musicals.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Robbie Roselle]

And Ben Vereen's been in so many things. Or like. No, because I can't be like Shelley Plimpton gave birth to Martha.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry. Actually, no. You know what? I've got it. I've got a deep dive.

[Robbie Roselle]

Go.

[Matt Koplik]

This is gonna get me to Sally.

[Robbie Roselle]

Okay. You've never been to Sally, but you've been to you.

[Matt Koplik]

Gault McDermott is the composer of Hair.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

He also composed Two Gentlemen of Verona.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Stocker Channing is in the original cast of Two Gentlemen of Verona.

[Robbie Roselle]

Wow.

[Matt Koplik]

It's one of those random things that I just know. Stocker Channing was in the revival of Pal Joey.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Directed by Joe Mantello, who directed the Off Broadway production of man of no Importance with Sally Murphy. There we go. Bada bing, bada boom. That's Six Degrees of Sally Murphy.

[Robbie Roselle]

That's beautiful.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you, Janine. To Sorry, though. I don't know. Yeah. This is gonna be hard. And not. Not in a good way. Not in a way that.

[Robbie Roselle]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

Gavin Creel can be here right now.

[Robbie Roselle]

Listener. He's sweating a little.

[Matt Koplik]

Just.

[Robbie Roselle]

Just.

[Matt Koplik]

Dewey. Just a little bit.

[Robbie Roselle]

Okay, wait. So we have to get to Tesori I'm trying to reverse engineer this in some way.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I'm trying to think about.

[Robbie Roselle]

Okay, maybe who is in that Twelfth Night that Tesori wrote the.

[Matt Koplik]

Who is in it?

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Movie stars. Paul Rudd, Helen Hunt, Philip Bosco, I believe. Kyra Sedgwick. Ooh. Okay, wait, hold on.

[Robbie Roselle]

Huh?

[Matt Koplik]

I think we can get something. What? What? What?

[Robbie Roselle]

You got Hair?

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Robbie Roselle]

What's her name?

[Matt Koplik]

Mm.

[Robbie Roselle]

Annie Golden.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay.

[Robbie Roselle]

Violet Janine Tesori.

[Matt Koplik]

But Annie golden didn't do the original production.

[Robbie Roselle]

No, but she did the film.

[Matt Koplik]

She did do the film. Well, so can we do.

[Robbie Roselle]

Or what's another. How do we get to Anne and Golden?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so now I'm trying to get to.

[Robbie Roselle]

Great question.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. Is there a Michael Bennett connection to Hair in any way? That's. That's where I'm kind of coming at.

[Robbie Roselle]

Great question. I don't think so, because most of them were not trained anythings.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. But I have a feeling at the very least. Well, okay. Actually, no. You know what? You know what we can do?

[Robbie Roselle]

Tell me.

[Matt Koplik]

Because if we're doing. If we. We can include production teams. The original production of Hair.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Had a set design by Robin Wagner.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

His earliest set designs. He designed Chorus Line and Dream Girls.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

We're gonna go with Dream Girls.

[Robbie Roselle]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Designed Dream Girls.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Starring Sheryl Lee Ralph, who is in Thoroughly Modern Millie by Janine Tesori.

[Robbie Roselle]

Wow. You did it, Joe.

[Matt Koplik]

We did it, Joe.

[Robbie Roselle]

No, you did it. I'm nobody.

[Matt Koplik]

No. That's amazing. I am so proud of myself.

[Robbie Roselle]

That was really hard.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Gavin just left. That was really hard.

[Robbie Roselle]

Bye, Gav.

[Matt Koplik]

Bye, Gavi.

[Robbie Roselle]

Do you know that his home is called Hackle House?

[Matt Koplik]

No. Is he Hackles people?

[Robbie Roselle]

No, Hackle.

[Matt Koplik]

Hackle.

[Robbie Roselle]

Why Hackle Cornelius.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, because he bought it with his hello Dolly money.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

That's. That'll do it.

[Robbie Roselle]

There's, like, a shingle hanging outside of it. It says Hackle House.

[Matt Koplik]

House. Like an upstate home?

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah. He lives next door to Patty Murin and Colin Donnell.

[Matt Koplik]

That'll do it. That'll do it. Anywho, Robbie, where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[Robbie Roselle]

I'm so wildly findable at Diva Robbie, which was my AOL screen name when I was 16. That's just a cautionary fable in branding. Choose wisely, kids. Gypsy.

[Matt Koplik]

A musical cautionary fable.

[Robbie Roselle]

Because it can stick. Yes, I'm findable. I'm very streamable on the Spotify's for my semi hit album, Songs from Inside by Locker live at fine songs 54.

[Matt Koplik]

Below songs from inside my locker.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah, it's a good. It's fun.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a fun time. Yeah, it's a fun time.

[Robbie Roselle]

Actually, the last time I was on the pod, we were fundraising for it, so.

[Matt Koplik]

Look how far you've come, baby. Yeah, it's all here. It's all happening.

[Robbie Roselle]

You lost £130 and his name was John.

[Matt Koplik]

140.

[Robbie Roselle]

Come on.

[Matt Koplik]

He's tall.

[Robbie Roselle]

He is tall.

[Matt Koplik]

He is very tall.

[Robbie Roselle]

I love him so much.

[Matt Koplik]

Actually, he and I are supposed to get dinner soon. I have to like actually set a date for that. Thank you for reminding me. Love you, baby. If you guys like the POD rate.

[Robbie Roselle]

Review, subscribe five stars.

[Matt Koplik]

Five stars. Give us a nice little rating. I read a lovely one for the love ballad compassion episode. You can find me at Matt Koplik, usual spelling on Instagram and Instagram only. Check back next week for I don't know what. Because it's whole thing is out of order and it's a whole thing.

[Robbie Roselle]

It's a lot of stuff. Like, you threw me like 10 titles.

[Matt Koplik]

I know, and I already. And that is saying something because I have already had half of this shows covered. So.

[Robbie Roselle]

It's wild.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Getting us through at least through the Tonys. You gotta do something.

[Robbie Roselle]

You're truly doing the Lorts contracts work.

[Matt Koplik]

I will punch you. So I'm trying to think who we should have close us out. I think we gotta go with the diva herself, Ms. Melbourne.

[Robbie Roselle]

Yeah. Do it. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Gotta do it. Yeah. All right.

[Robbie Roselle]

She got love.

[Matt Koplik]

She got so much love. You know, I saw her as Fontina Les Maas.

[Robbie Roselle]

There was also another like Jennifer Hudson Melbourne crossover because Jennifer or Jennifer sang I got love on Smosh.

[Matt Koplik]

She sure did. Yeah. And it's just. It's gorge all around.

[Robbie Roselle]

It's beautiful.

[Matt Koplik]

It's beautiful.

[Robbie Roselle]

What a time to be alive.

[Matt Koplik]

What a. What a wonderful time.

[Robbie Roselle]

You saw her in Les Mis.

[Matt Koplik]

I saw her in Les Mis, yeah. I was five years old. My parents took me to say Les Mis when I was five.

[Robbie Roselle]

They said, what about this nap?

[Matt Koplik]

I was. I was awake the entire time. But I remember. I remember seeing. I remember seeing Melba. It was. It was a time. But yeah. So anyway, join us back next week, guys, for God knows what. And until then, enjoy. Ms. More if you're nasty. Take us away Melbs. Bye.

[Melba Moore]

Sweeter than a flower hour. I don't know that. I know that I'm a lucky girl. For the first time in my life I'm somebody in this world.