HAMILTON w/ Brian Nash

Summary

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Broadway Breakdown — HAMILTON w/ Brian Nash (Dec 15, 2022)

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Brian Nash

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Episode Overview

This episode of Broadway Breakdown features host Matt Koplik and guest Brian Nash as they dive deep into the history, legacy, and phenomenon of Hamilton, the groundbreaking musical by Lin-Manuel Miranda. They explore its journey from Off-Broadway to Broadway, analyze its musical innovations and cultural significance, and share personal stories of encountering the show. With vibrant banter, irreverence, and deep Broadway knowledge, Matt and Brian dissect what sets Hamilton apart while highlighting the show's controversies, craftsmanship, and impact on theater.

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Main Themes and Purpose

• Dissecting Hamilton's creation, development, and swift rise from Off-Broadway to Broadway dominance
• Breaking down its musical innovation, casting, and approach to storytelling
• Examining its cultural significance, massive success, and subsequent critical backlash
• Discussing the practical realities behind the show’s finances, production, and royalties
• Candid opinions, inside anecdotes, and a recurring frank, comedic tone

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Immediate Recognition and Cultural Saturation

• Opening banter mocks how Hamilton is "never referenced anywhere" and jokes about its ubiquity, setting the irreverent tone (03:03).
• Matt and Brian both remark how it feels odd to try to find something “new” to say about such a well-documented show.

2. Personal Histories & First Encounters

• Brian's journey: Introduced to Lin-Manuel Miranda through In the Heights; missed his Hamilton ticket at the Public due to jet lag, later caught the show in Broadway previews (07:00–10:13).
• Matt’s experience: Invited by Emily Skeggs to a preview at the Public, saw the show “before it blew up” and recounts the quick move to Broadway (10:13–12:17).

"At that point, all it was was just a hot ticket... It’s crazy to think it sold out nine months before it started." - Matt (11:07)

• Discuss the contrast between seeing the show at the Public's cramped stage vs. its expansion on Broadway; both comment on how its design was always destined for Broadway scale (13:39–14:05).

3. Development, Research, and Creative Partnerships

• Reference to the developmental book Hamilton: The Revolution by Lin-Manuel Miranda and Jeremy McCarter; Jeremy’s early advocacy for Miranda’s work is highlighted (05:25–06:37).
• The transition from “mixtape” concept to the full musical, with emphasis on how Miranda’s collaborators shaped the show, especially orchestrator Alex Lacamoire (26:35–27:27).

"A lot of the stuff people really love about the score is Alex Lacamoire." - Matt (26:47)

4. Music, Orchestration, and Cast Album Production

• Analysis of the show's orchestration, hip-hop/classical blend, and how the band and tech (Ableton, pre-records) created a huge sound from a small pit (25:34–28:04).
• Discussion of how the cast album was crafted to feel like a pop album à la Rent (28:56–29:27).

"They wanted it to be an album you could put on headphones and listen to and get an awareness of what it feels like in the theater..." - Brian (30:02)

5. On Lyrics, Rap, and Character Intelligence

• Breakdown of how rap specifically denotes intelligence, e.g., Hamilton’s “faster” verses signal a quick mind (55:43–57:06).
• The technical brilliance and storytelling in rapid-fire songs like “Satisfied” receive extensive praise (49:38–54:53).

"The way rap is used...speed with rap is shown as a sign of intelligence in this show." - Matt (56:47)

6. Standout Musical Moments

• Brian singles out “Satisfied” as his favorite number, marveling at its technical and emotional complexity (49:38–54:53).
• Matt recalls the audience’s collective realization and emotional response during “The Room Where It Happens” (60:16–61:44).
• Several other chills moments: “Non-Stop,” “One Last Time,” the finale “Who Lives, Who Dies,” and Philippa Soo’s gasp.

7. Musical Theater References & Structural Craft

• Observations on Hamilton’s numerous winks to shows like Les Misérables, The Last Five Years, Camelot, etc. (64:00–65:06).
• Discussion of act one finales/mashups and their evolution in musical theater (122:49–123:54).

8. Character Analysis—Particularly Eliza

• Debate about Eliza’s arc: her apparent lack of edge until "Burn," her ultimate agency in the finale, and the division of "brains" (Angelica) and "heart" (Eliza) (77:47–79:35).
• How the finale centers Eliza and the meaning of her last gasp—with multiple interpretations discussed, including the possibility that Eliza realizes her story is being told (84:54–86:09).

9. Hamilton’s Controversies and Critical Backlash

• The "overrated" claims, criticisms from Michael Riedel, and tension about the show’s “sunshiny” portrayal of history (17:09–20:25, 93:09–94:54).
• Post-Disney+ backlash, especially from Gen Z, about Hamilton’s handling of slavery, historical “whitewashing,” and Miranda’s own persona (91:34–94:54).

"Hamilton came out in the era of Obama. There was a pride and a hopefulness...and you have to view its viewpoint of the country through that lens." - Matt (94:56)

10. Production Realities: Royalty Fights and Ham4Ham

• The Hamilton workshop cast’s public battle for royalties, their eventual 1% share of net profits, and broader ramifications for future workshops (139:48–148:51).

"At some point, it’s like how much is enough for you before you can start spreading the wealth?" - Matt (147:48)

• Discussion of Ham4Ham—the innovative lottery sidewalk performances that became a phenomenon and their (truthful or not) funding justification (150:04–155:53).

11. Ticket Prices, Accessibility, and the Reality of Commercial Success

• The explosion in premium ticket pricing and the problematic nature of lotteries in truly ensuring broad access (154:07–157:49).

"Lotteries don’t discriminate between the rich and the poor...who’s to say that the people paying $10 for Hamilton couldn’t afford the premium?" - Matt (156:49)

12. Enduring Legacy and Cultural Ubiquity

• Hamilton’s permanent place as a pop culture and Broadway milestone, referenced everywhere—SNL, Good Place, podcasts, etc. (162:26–162:57).
• The show's outsized Tony Awards sweep, cultural saturation, and ongoing influence.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On how much has been written about Hamilton:
  "What could we possibly say about Hamilton that has not been said? And now, please tune in for the next three hours." – Matt (03:45)
• On the difference between Broadway and Public productions:
  "That show was designed and staged for a Broadway stage...with that set and that dancing, it was cramped, for sure." – Matt (13:39)
• On orchestrations/originality:
  "A lot of the stuff people really love about the score is Alex Lacamoire." – Matt (26:47)
• On the character Angelica/Hamilton’s intelligence:
  "Eliza having the same rhythm and speed as Hamilton shows that they are mentally soulmates." – Matt (57:07)
• On “The Room Where It Happens” moment:
  "I want to be in the room where it happens. And everyone just went, oh!” – Matt (61:44)
• On cast album mix:
  "Hamilton feels like an album you can put on headphones and listen to." – Brian (30:02)
• On critical backlash:
  "It is a truth universally acknowledged that when something becomes very, very popular, there will be backlash." – Matt (91:02)
• On the meaning of Eliza’s gasp:
  "The interpretation I heard that I liked...it was no longer Alexander guiding her into the light, but Lin-Manuel Miranda guiding Eliza to the front of the theater..." – Matt (85:19)
• On the royalty battle’s broader effect:
  "Now so much of the artistic process has come down to, well, where’s my compensation?" – Matt (146:11)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:42 — Announcing the episode topic: Hamilton
• 07:00–10:13 — Brian’s first experience with In the Heights and missed Hamilton at the Public
• 10:13–12:17 — Matt’s first Hamilton preview experience at the Public
• 13:39–14:05 — Technical/design differences between Public and Broadway
• 25:34–30:02 — Musical arrangements, orchestrations, and cast album
• 49:38–54:53 — “Satisfied” deep-dive and first staging
• 60:16–61:44 — “Room Where It Happens” and audience reactions
• 77:47–79:35 — Analysis of Eliza’s role and agency
• 84:54–86:09 — Multiple interpretations of Eliza’s gasp in the finale
• 91:34–94:54 — Disney+ backlash and generational criticism
• 139:48–148:51 — Royalty fight: origins, outcome, precedent
• 150:04–155:53 — Ham4Ham and the truth about ticket pricing
• 162:26–162:57 — Hamilton referenced in everything

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Structure, Tone, and Takeaways

• Tone: Passionate, unfiltered, funny, and densely referential; frequent use of inside-Broadway lingo, snarky asides, musical theater deep cuts.
• Structure: Free-flowing, non-linear, skipping between personal anecdote, musical analysis, theater-business realities, memeable asides and brisk comic interludes.
• Not for: Those craving a neat, chronological episode recap; ad breaks, intros, and outros are ignored here.

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Final Thoughts

Matt and Brian’s conversation provides a sweeping, entertaining, and insightful look at Hamilton—equal parts musical appreciation, theater geekery, and candid industry talk. Highlights include firsthand Public/Broadway stories, technical analysis of music and staging, and sharp takes on the show’s place in American culture and Broadway history. Recurring moments include affectionate ribbing, karaoke snippets, and riffs on why theater nerds shouldn’t lose their childlike wonder (but also shouldn’t mistake Lin-Manuel Miranda for an “everyman” anymore).

For those who haven’t listened, this episode gives you a vivid sense of Hamilton’s world—its hype, its substance, its flaws, and why it remains the biggest touchpoint for 21st-century Broadway.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Matt Koplik]

How does a bastard, orphan, son of a whore and a Scotsman dropped in.

[Brian Nash]

The middle of a forgotten spot in.

[Matt Koplik]

The Caribbean by Providence impoverished and squamor grow up to be a hero and a scholar? The ten dollar founding father without a father got a lot farther by working a lot harder, by being a lot smarter, by being a self starter. By 14, they placed him in charge of a trading charter. And every day while slaves were being slaughtered and carted. Hello all theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called the Big Move, and it is covering shows that were so successful off Broadway, they just had to transfer to the Great White Way and try some luck over there. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is a dear friend, good Judy musical maven. You might have seen him on the high seas across the country. He has worked with Natalie Joy Johnson at the Queue, formerly and now who knows where. Ms. J. Johnson, if you're nasty, Countess Luannifer Holiday, and who said, oh, Mandy Gonzalez. Which is a great one for what we're gonna talk about.

[Brian Nash]

The show that we're about to talk about.

[Matt Koplik]

Please welcome to the podcast for the very first time. Can't believe it's taken us this long. Brian Nash.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, hi. Oh, hi. Hello.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello.

[Brian Nash]

What is happening?

[Matt Koplik]

I know. What are you doing?

[Brian Nash]

I'm trying to get the mic. The pop screen, like, somewhere nice.

[Matt Koplik]

Remember when I told you to eat the mic and you've only gotten further away from it?

[Brian Nash]

I'm. It's closer to me.

[Matt Koplik]

Is it?

[Brian Nash]

It is.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, if you say so.

[Brian Nash]

I did school.

[Matt Koplik]

You're terrible, Muriel.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, I saw that. I saw that in. In Sydney.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, really?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Any good? Not as good as the movie.

[Brian Nash]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

And you lot, what a bunch of suckers. Yeah, I'm beautiful.

[Brian Nash]

It's. It's. It's fine. Yeah, it's like. It's like if Amelie was Muriel's wedding. Oh, my God, it's that tone.

[Matt Koplik]

No, God damn it.

[Brian Nash]

It's fine.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, so we'll see how the audio quality is on this one. Last time we used these mics was the Rent episode with our dear Judy, Adam Ellsberry. And we got. I never in my life have I gotten so many reviews in a week that were all five stars and all were like, you need to fix the sound.

[Brian Nash]

And I'm like, I know you Should I do this? I do sound.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, next time. Next time you'll do the sound draw. All right, Brian, what show are we talking about today?

[Brian Nash]

We are talking about the Hamiltons.

[Matt Koplik]

Hamilton. That's how that goes, right?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Never done. Yeah, great.

[Matt Koplik]

Dink Hamilton. Never heard of it before at a day in my life.

[Brian Nash]

It's. It's. It's. It's this little niche ass piece. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Never referenced anywhere. No, no, no. Never made a scent.

[Brian Nash]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

Came and went. Dear reader, Dear Breeder.

[Brian Nash]

I'm just gonna become Julie Anderson Bridgerton right now. Dear breeder. Did you say dear breeder? Dear breeder. Well, no, there's none of those. Listening to this.

[Matt Koplik]

Dear breeders. Yeah, no. Straight people listen to this podcast.

[Brian Nash]

No, no, no, no. There are some nice straight girls in Ohio. Hi. Hi, Becky.

[Matt Koplik]

I have a few straight female friends who've been on this podcast. They're nice to me.

[Brian Nash]

They're lovely. They're lovely.

[Matt Koplik]

They're out there, y'.

[Brian Nash]

All. But dear Breeder, I. When Matt asked me to finally come on the pod.

[Matt Koplik]

Don't give me that bullshit.

[Brian Nash]

It's. I've been waiting for this moment all my life.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, lord.

[Brian Nash]

So.

[Matt Koplik]

All 92 years.

[Brian Nash]

Yep. Yep. So Matt asked me to do it. I'm like, great. What. What obscure ass show we're going to be talking about, is he. And he said, hamilton. I'm like, what could we possibly say about Hamilton that has not been said? And now, please tune in for the next three hours.

[Matt Koplik]

Did I tell you Hamilton, or did I give you.

[Brian Nash]

You gave me a list.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I gave you a list. And you. And you gave me, like. I think you pretty much just at that point, all the other stuff you could have talked about was taken. So you just said. You said hamilton.

[Brian Nash]

I was like, I can. I can, I can. Hamilton.

[Matt Koplik]

There were some good options there for you. So I was surprised that I was. I was surprised. You're like, hamilton.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, I mean, I know it. I know it well.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, we all do. I was doing my research this week and I went, I don't need to do that much. We all know the show, so we can really just dissect that. I was mostly trying to get a couple of factoids about sort of the gestation process on it, and I was able to do some. Life's been weird the last couple of days, so. In between researchers. Researchers. In between researches.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, that was in between a couple of researchers. And he can barely walk.

[Matt Koplik]

I know I'm sitting down, quaking in my boots, but in between researches, life would get in the way, and then that would make me sit down for three hours, and then I would get back to the research. So I have about three pages of research as opposed to my normal 12. Great.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, great. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's.

[Brian Nash]

I mean, it's basically the New York times between, like, 2015 and 2017.

[Matt Koplik]

But I was like, look at these pages, Brian. Like, that's not. Like, when Brian heard three pages, his eyes got wide. But like, this is children's book. Three pages. This is not, you know, War and Peace.

[Brian Nash]

However, they are also sitting on an entire book about the musical Hamilton the.

[Matt Koplik]

Revolution, written by Lin Manuel Miranda and Jeremy McCarter. Jeremy was the drama critic for New York magazine. I believe that is how he met Lin, because he was a champion of in the Heights. Because Jeremy was like, you know, a bra was missing. Hip hop. It really. He goes, hip hop is going to shade.

[Brian Nash]

Is going to shade.

[Matt Koplik]

The Broadway musical.

[Brian Nash]

Yes. The cast of Little Abner was the drama critic at the New Yorker. What was that vocal choice?

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know is what it is.

[Brian Nash]

It's kind of like Maya Rudolph's character in Big Mouth was doing the lavender.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, Connie.

[Brian Nash]

The. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't wear deodorant and I only take bubble bath.

[Brian Nash]

Bubble baths.

[Matt Koplik]

It's Liza Minnelli eating pussy.

[Brian Nash]

That's what it is.

[Matt Koplik]

Sneezing into a vagina.

[Brian Nash]

Liza Minnelli.

[Matt Koplik]

No, that's what it is.

[Brian Nash]

Shape Me. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Jesus Christ. It's gonna be an interesting episode. Jeremy did slay Hip hop would save the musical. And he wasn't joking. Then he goes, see? In the Heights. And he's like, hip hop. And so he.

[Brian Nash]

No, that's Liza Minnelli.

[Matt Koplik]

It's hip hop. But so then I guess they connected through that. He no longer worked at New New York Magazine. He became part of the artistic staff at the Public Theater. And we will get to that in a second because that's how Hamilton and. And it about the public. Brian.

[Brian Nash]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

What is your history with Hamilton?

[Brian Nash]

So my history with Hamilton does, I guess it does kind of loop back to heights. I was doing a random gig with Manning Gonzalez at, like, a resort in somewhere in Arizona. Yeah, it was Rob. Rob Evan and Manning Gonzalez. And we were belting at corporate people. On the plane back, she played me this demo from this new musical she was doing, which was in the Heights. And I was like, oh, this is sounds interesting. Weird. Cool. Great. Went to go see Heights. Loved it, Loved it, loved it.

[Matt Koplik]

Off Broadway or on Broadway?

[Brian Nash]

On. I Mean, I was out of town when I was at 59 East 59th. Or.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it was there. Yeah, yeah, I saw it. I saw it there.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, I waited.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, listeners who listen to. The Listeners who listen to the Passing Strange episode will know what I thought of it. And I'll talk about it more when we do cover in the Heights, which I think we. I think we are covering it. I don't know. I'm covering so many shows on this season, I don't remember all of them. I thought I was doing Proof. I think I'm just doing Doubt anyway. Well, you know, they're within three years of each other. It's one. It's a one word play. They both wrote the Walter Kerr. I'm not a total boob. But so it was okay at 59. He's 59. And we'll talk about this with Hamilton as well. There were some things that they changed for Broadway for the much better at least in terms of like smoothness and energy. Like, act two really just kind of was a mess at 59. 59, in my opinion. And it also was a show where you watched it and you were just like, this is not an off Broadway musical. Like, they need more money to do what they want to do. Yeah, yeah, but it was overall good.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, I know. They. They replaced Breathe, went in for Broadway. Yeah, it was like the. My Fire Escape.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, I don't remember that. Yeah, yeah, I. They. Benny also had like another rap in Act 2 that they cut where he was like pleading his case to date Nina. And it was called like that's what's up or something. Something like that. And I just remember thinking it was so corny. So they luckily cut that.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah. Good cuts then. So when Hamilton was like the kind of Hamilton mixtape was kind of bouncing around. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, because that's what it was originally called. Exactly.

[Brian Nash]

And they were doing. I think they did a couple concerts like Chunks at Joe's Pub. I missed that. So when they announced at the Public, I like snatched up a ticket instantly. So excited. And it was like, you know, nine months before the damn show actually happened. Yeah. So got myself a ticket and then lived my life. And then I got back from Australia, I was doing again Australia and I was like, great. I am so jet lagged. I have nothing to do until my gig at like 11:30pm on a Friday night. So I'm just gonna sleep out this jet lag. And I woke up from a nap and I looked at my phone and it said Hamilton, 8pm and it was 9:45. I was like, motherfucker, like, threw my phone across the room. I slept through Hamilton at the Public because I forgot I had a ticket.

[Matt Koplik]

No, forgot, forgot, forgot. He forgot.

[Brian Nash]

Madonna was probably sitting in my seat texting, probably.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, God. Remember that?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So when did you finally see.

[Brian Nash]

I grabbed a ticket to it in previews on Broadway.

[Matt Koplik]

Sounds.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Delights. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I saw it. I believe it was January of 2015. I was doing a web series back in the day that some listeners might know. It was called Baking it on Broadway.

[Brian Nash]

Mm.

[Matt Koplik]

And it was the beginning. It was the launch of the series. And my friend at the time, Emily Skeggs, who I'd gone to Emerson with, was going to be doing Fun Home on Broadway after replacing Social at the Public. And she agreed to come on Baking it because Fun Home had not started rehearsals yet. So she had some time and it was really nice. And we, you know, we filmed everything and then we finished and I said to her, like, oh, Emily, what are you. What are you doing the rest of the evening? And she goes, oh, I have two tickets to Hamilton at the Public. It was. They were still in previews. It was actually the first night that Javier went on because Lynn was in the audience taking notes.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And she was like, I can't find anyone who can go. And then she took a pause, went, oh, would you want to go? I went, sure. Why not? Yeah. Well, because, like, at that point, all it was was just a hot ticket. Like, it was. It's crazy to think that it did pretty much sell out nine months before it started. Part of it is, it's the public. It's a subscriber based house, so it's always going to be like 75% sold no matter what. But it was the next big Lin Manuel Miranda piece. It had buzz because it sort of, for the last five years, was sort of bopping around in different, as you said, different concert venues. Joe's Pub, they did a big one with Lincoln center, which I'll talk about Vassar. So people in the industry had heard good things about it, so there was interest and there were limited seats, but not a lot of people had seen it yet. And so I got to go with her at one of those previews, and I felt very fancy because there were a couple of people there who were in the know about Fun Home and recognized Emily and like, oh, we're so excited to see it in the round. And she's like, it's gonna be great. And it. And Lynn sat like, two Rows behind us. And then we saw it, and I thought it was nice. And then it blew up pretty quickly after that.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Not to the extent of when it moved to Broadway, but definitely for Off Broadway. It was, like, very big. And my family all asked, like, if I knew how to help them get. Well, not all my family, like my grandmother and my mom, my dad were all like, do you know ways, like, to get tickets? I said, well, there they will extend, but it's gonna be really difficult. And I think they did, like, three or four different extensions. It was supposed to go from January to March, and it ended up closing at the end.

[Brian Nash]

May. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And pretty much went straight to Broadway after that.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, they opened, like, end of June. I think they started previews.

[Matt Koplik]

You started previews? Yeah, end of June or early July. And then they opened, I think, like, first week of August, something like that. So it was a very quick turnover. Comparable to Chorus Line and Rent, where it was just like. It was like a month go. Yeah. And again, when I saw it at the Public, one of my big notes on it was like, oh, this is going to be so good on a Broadway stage. Because this. Whatever they fucking claim, and I don't buy it for a second, that show was designed and staged for a Broadway stage. Oh, absolutely, because the Newman is definitely is the largest stage at the Public. But it's comparable to, like, not even, like the Jacobs Theater, like. Yeah, slightly larger than the Booth stage, I would say. And so with that set and that dancing, like, I. I feel like I might have seen a couple people, like, bump into each other, but it was cramped, for sure.

[Brian Nash]

And because they still did double turntable at the Public, right?

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And I remember thinking to myself, like, oh, when this is on another. A bigger stage, this will blossom. Which it did. And when they announced the transfer, I told my grandmother and my mom, I said, I can get us tickets. I need a budget. And we will. We will get them. And then I got my dad a ticket as well. So we got tickets. We were third row Centermes for the last preview.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, nice.

[Matt Koplik]

And then I got my dad a ticket for. On the same seat for the first performance after they opened.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And my dad was able to use that as cachet for a while. I'm gonna tell this story quickly, and then we'll continue with our. With our lives. But when he. So my dad lives out in Los Angeles and he belongs to this golf club which is filled to the brim with, like, Hollywood people, because my dad used to sort of be in the business. So a lot of actors and directors and producers and agents and whatnot. And my dad is retired and is well liked, but, like, is not a famous person. So at this club, there are some people who like him because he's good conversationalist when playing golf, but other people who, like, don't give him the time of day because he's not a famous dude. And Hamilton had been out for about a month on Broadway. It was like end of August. And my dad called me up to tell me how he was playing golf with these two guys. And I think one was an agent, one was a producer, and the producer knew my dad and liked him. And the agent was, like, very, you know, very classist. And they were talking about, you know, oh, the agent's going to New York soon. And he's like, yeah, we're going. We're going in, like, two months. He goes, and we're seeing Hamilton saying, like, very. And my dad goes, oh, you'll love it. And the agent just looked at my dad. He's like, you saw it? He's like, yeah, I saw it the night after it opened.

[Brian Nash]

So what?

[Matt Koplik]

And it was one of those moments for him where he was like, I felt so fucking baller to tell this piece of shit. Have you ever watched Mad Men?

[Brian Nash]

I haven't.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. There's a scene in Mad Men because.

[Brian Nash]

It'S the 60s, right? Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And to quote Carrie Fisherman, When Harry Met Sally, restaurants were to people in the 80s what theater was to people in the 60s. And so there's a lot of talk about whatever Broadway shows are going on, because, you know, that's sort of the classy thing. And it's how, you know, who's gotten in based off of, like, who's got seats to the big thing.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Jon Hamm is having dinner with a client's wife who he will be fucking later. And an old flame walks by with her now husband and talks to them, and it's all very tense and there's like a awkward moment. And then the husband says, oh, well, we better get going if we don't want to miss the curtain. And he looks very proudly. He goes, we have seats where Funny Thing Happened on the way to the Forum. And the woman Bobby that Jon Hamm is with, she goes, oh, it's wonderful. And it's that thing where the only thing more impressive than having tickets to the thing is having seen it first.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Oh, I try to see literally everything first. I will go to any sort of like, hey, I'll just fly to some random ass state where something's trying out to be like, I thought for. I thought out of town. They really need to work on it. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Where were you? Where were you when Hamilton.

[Brian Nash]

When Jonathan Groff started spitting on people?

[Matt Koplik]

Were you at his birth? That's just. That's what he do for someone who's not a dom top. He really does love spitting on people.

[Brian Nash]

I'm not mad.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I'm not mad about it at all. I said, get me whet daddy. And he did it. But where were you the day that Hamilton was deemed overrated?

[Brian Nash]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I think it was deemed overrated during the transfer already. There was already like that weird backlash to the, like the amount, the number of inches of newsprint the Times devoted to it. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then backlash to the backlash.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You know who is super anti Hamilton was Michael Riedel.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, he just wanted to knock them down a peg, of course.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Because he does that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And he always likes to be the contrarian and sometimes he just makes shit up. But when they announced that they were transferring, do you remember how they did it?

[Brian Nash]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

They did it in the lobby of the public. And they made it a really big press event with Lynn, like standing on the main desk doing a big like, we're moving to Broadway and photographs everyone all this stuff. And you better bet your gay butt that Michael Riedel wrote an article about it. And he goes, oh, I guess this is national celebratory news that you needed to do such a press conference with like confetti and standing on top of your desk like, how fucking conceited are you all?

[Brian Nash]

It's in the lobby of the public. They didn't like take out the New York Stock Exchange.

[Matt Koplik]

I know I'm sort of halfway where it's like, listen, it was an exciting announcement and business wise, they were doing their part to like drum up interest for the transfer. There were people who were entirely convinced that it wasn't going to. That the buzz wasn't going to transfer to Broadway, that like, it would have a solid three year run like in the Heights and then die out because, like, well, it's one thing to be 200 seats at the public, but to charge money, so much money for a Broadway theater, we have to fill up, you know, eight times the amount of seats. Like, good luck to you.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But no, like it pretty much out the gate was huge because I remember, I think they took in like $4 million on their very first day at the box office. Something like $30 million in advance. By the time they opened, first musical, first Broadway show, would have, like, a 50 million dollar advance, which I do believe Music man eventually usurped. Only because they were selling, like, $900 seats.

[Brian Nash]

Exactly. Yeah. I mean, they could just sell the premium seats for four performances. And they're like, look, we have an $80 million advance.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. I mean, Music man, if you look.

[Brian Nash]

At the hats, the merch is $100,000 for that.

[Matt Koplik]

I have only bought merch to two shows in the last six years.

[Brian Nash]

And you're wearing.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm wearing one of them right now.

[Brian Nash]

A Kimberly Akimbo hoodie.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. So everyone should know what my thoughts are going to be when we record that bonus episode later at some point.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, you're going to do it. Oh, that's sweet.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because it's a transfer and it's a Jeanine Tesori. And so we did. We had the Tesori Hour. So now we got it. We got to do both.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I did write a review, a review of it on Instagram. It was well liked. My daddy said that it made him weep. Yeah. Which is nice.

[Brian Nash]

My father is a sensitive soul. He is.

[Matt Koplik]

He weeps in my reviews and he loves aimless behaving. But this is to say, this is.

[Brian Nash]

Where we're talking a lot about your dad. Do we need to. Do we need to, like. Do you need to lie down? Is this a couch?

[Matt Koplik]

Is this a couch? This is.

[Brian Nash]

Ceci n' est pas une fuck. How do you say couch in French now? I can't remember. Excuse.

[Matt Koplik]

Excuse. You with your false eye.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Sorry. Look at you, girl. But no, we're talking about surrealist French painters and Hamilton.

[Matt Koplik]

And Hamilton. Am I okay?

[Brian Nash]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

Is it because I'm talking about my dad? No, but Hamilton. I just remember there was that sort of backlash to the. To it, then. The backlash to the backlash. But it wasn't so much like people were anti. Everyone was like, is it really that good?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then I remember Ben Branlee's review for Broadway was like, yes, it is that good. He told people to put a mortgage on their houses, possibly sell their children.

[Brian Nash]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

And that was enough for them.

[Brian Nash]

And there isn't even a blonde lady in it. So I don't know how Ben liked it.

[Matt Koplik]

Everyone makes that joke with him.

[Brian Nash]

It's weird. He doesn't remember the Wicked. I mean, you were four, but do you remember the Wicked review?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I do. It was. It was a love letter to Cheno and nothing else.

[Brian Nash]

Exactly. It was like. And there's this green girl in it. Whatever. Anyway, Chris and Chenoweth is a revelation, you guys.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I remember his review for Wicked ended with Kristin Chenoweth gives you hope for the future of musical theater. Wicked does not. Yeah, in his defense, Wicked has not given us hope for the future of musical theater because a lot of the shows that tried to imitate it have not been very good. Sure. There's nothing rich folks love more than.

[Brian Nash]

Going downtown and slumming it with the poor.

[Matt Koplik]

They pull up in their carriages and gawk at the students in the common.

[Brian Nash]

Just to watch them talk.

[Matt Koplik]

Take Philip Schuyler.

[Brian Nash]

The man is loaded.

[Matt Koplik]

Uh oh.

[Brian Nash]

But little does he know that his.

[Matt Koplik]

Daughters Peggy, Angelica, Eliza slipped into the just to watch all the guys. Angelica, Eliza, Peggy. 90 year old waffles. That is a waffle.

[Brian Nash]

Amazing.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, look at this.

[Brian Nash]

Bacon. And they did turkey bacon. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

In true breakdown fashion, I will now be eating on the pod.

[Brian Nash]

That. Thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

My mom just did a. Yes.

[Brian Nash]

Oh my God. I thought. I, I, I. No, I'm fine, thanks, Mom.

[Matt Koplik]

My mom bought beer.

[Brian Nash]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And I'll have a beer later. Thank you.

[Brian Nash]

I'm, I'm good. He doesn't want one now.

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[Brian Nash]

This is just beer and turkey bacon. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Gosh, Sometimes it helps.

[Brian Nash]

Is that a. Is that like a. A ceramic syrup jug?

[Matt Koplik]

Sure is. We fancy cunt.

[Brian Nash]

God damn it. I like people. Yeah. Who have things.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh. Nice things. Nice. Sometimes it helps to have a bad day because then your mommy takes care of you.

[Brian Nash]

Exactly. Your mom. Your mommy pour some syrup and it's ceramic containers especially for.

[Matt Koplik]

She did. It's a, It's a family recipe.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah. By the Taking the old Aunt Jemima Pearl River Milling Company syrup and putting it in a very fancy thing.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, we're getting political now.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Political.

[Brian Nash]

So did the waffle hold up or did it get soggy?

[Matt Koplik]

It's soggy for sure.

[Brian Nash]

You need to put it in an air fryer after it gets. I love a waffle. So I'm not gonna, you know.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I've heard you like to be waffled.

[Brian Nash]

I don't even. That doesn't even mean anything.

[Matt Koplik]

Of course it doesn't mean anything. How do you think.

[Brian Nash]

How do you, you can like. You can waffle. One can waffle.

[Matt Koplik]

How do you think urban dictionary terms become urban dictionary terms? Someone says something and then just gives you a meaning. And it never had to exist before words become words.

[Brian Nash]

I mean, it's. We're talking now. The etymology of. Oh God, you're gonna ruin the waffle. Yeah. So There was one gig that I was doing. I don't know why we decided to urban Dictionary everything. Just turn everything that we said into an urban dictionary definition. And then we had to, like, figure out why it was filthy. And this particular boat had some really delicious warm cookies where if you ti. Timed it right, you get a warm cookie. And I'm finishing. I'm like, ooh, I'm go get a warm cookie. And they're like, okay, what is the warm cookie? I was like, hang on, hang on. Okay, you take a roll of Pillsbury cookie dough and you shove it into someone, and then you eat it out of them. And that is the warm cookie.

[Matt Koplik]

God damn it.

[Brian Nash]

You're welcome.

[Matt Koplik]

And I'm about to fucking eat for the first time all day.

[Brian Nash]

Why haven't you eaten? I know you're sad inside, but, you know, that's why. Have snacks.

[Matt Koplik]

It's not like. No, it's not by choice. There are certain kinds of anxiety that just, like, makes your stomach nauseous all day long. So it's like the idea of eating was so unappetizing. It still is, but I'm able to put something in my mouth and not barf.

[Brian Nash]

So I'm Irish. We don't have that.

[Matt Koplik]

You don't have anxiety?

[Brian Nash]

Stomach anxiety. You know, Hebraic.

[Matt Koplik]

I say, I'm a New York Jew, baby.

[Brian Nash]

Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

All of. All of our turmoil settles in our stomach.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, I'm Chicago Irish. So we just suppress everything. Yeah, it's fine.

[Matt Koplik]

But you know who doesn't suppress anything? Alexander Hamilton. Alexander. Which, as I was doing my research, Lynn was like, Fun fact that beginning to the title song is meant to be the melodic version of a door squeaking closed. And I'm like, but why?

[Brian Nash]

It's. Yeah, I didn't. I never understood the door thing.

[Matt Koplik]

I think he just liked how it sounded and inspired him. Like, I mean, the music is great.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so I'm happy for what it led to. But, like, why a dollar?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, I mean, I think the brilliance of that opening, that opening two bars. Yeah. Because I listened last night.

[Matt Koplik]

He prepared the.

[Brian Nash]

I got halfway through Aaron Burser, and then I had to go to bed. So. Yeah. So I'm very prepared to talk about the first six minutes of Hamilton. Fantastic.

[Matt Koplik]

It's only 12.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, exactly. So. But the brilliance of that first, like, it's. It's all Alex Lacamore. It's all in the orchestration of it because you have, like, the heaviness of the done dug a dun dun dun. And then over the String. So you're getting, like. You're getting the record scratch vibe over it. So you're. You are getting the hip hop and the classic all together.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it does. I will say the arrangements, orchestrations for this show are brilliant because incredibly effective. It is very well blended. Sometimes it'll flip completely into one genre and then go into another one. Sometimes it's like three different genres combined.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And part of it is Lin's writing, but they are very. They are very honest. In the book in Hamilton, the Revolution, that a lot of the stuff that people really love about the score is Alex Lacamore.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. I mean, Lin is a good songwriter. Yeah. As a composer. Composer. I mean, he doesn't have a broad language.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's not being rude. If you ever listen. If you listen to demos of Lin's songs where he's the one singing it, which also, first of all, he does not have the widest of ranges. No, but so, like, the very basic song itself is not always as impressive as it becomes, because once you added an actor to it who has a larger range and you have Alex Lacamore who understands different instruments and vocal types and whatnot, it becomes this whole other thing, which we will get to when we talk about royalties later on.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. The soundscape of the show is really smart and really well done, and it feels big considering how small that band is. Yeah. It's not huge at all.

[Matt Koplik]

There's a lot that's pre recorded, too.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. A lot of it is done through Ableton, which is a kind of program that, you know, you're triggering click tracks and stuff that's pre recorded and like, some of the, like, hip hop loops and stuff like that. So all that's being triggered, you know, in. In the band in real time, but it's. It thickens the sound of it and makes it feel like a lot of it was recorded in a studio. Yeah. Which is fantastic.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. My one complaint about the cast album is that I wish that the drum beat was deeper because it's. It's a deeper drum on Broadway. That's always the case, though, is the drum on a Broadway stage is gonna be darker and deeper than it is in the cast recording. It's something that Ellsbury and I always talk about with that Wild Party recording. We just wish that it was the Lachiusa.

[Brian Nash]

Yes. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

The good one. We wish that it wasn't such, like, a light. Like, whatever. It's timpani or whatever it is.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. I mean, a lot of times, especially, like, when you're mixing for a Broadway cast album. Like, it's gonna be vocal forward and then you're not gonna get any of the impact that you'd feel in the theater of the depth of it. The low end always gets killed. Hamilton is mixed much stronger than most cast albums because they did kind of record it. They kind of modeled it after how they recorded the Rent album, really. Like they.

[Matt Koplik]

How they record the Rent album.

[Brian Nash]

I mean, they recorded the Rent album like a rock album. They didn't do the. Like company. Like, everyone's just in the room and we're just going to get this take. Like they recorded. Like they recorded the instrumentation entirely separately. Really focused on that. Got the band mix and then, like recorded the vocals like a zillion takes just to kind of. Because they knew that was going to sell like a pop album.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's true.

[Brian Nash]

And it did. And the Hamilton album sold again. Like a pop album. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

That is really something that's interesting to think about, connecting the two, because even though Rent recorded that way, I really feel like it didn't create a trend or not an immediate trend in cast recording.

[Brian Nash]

It's too expensive. You can't do that if it's not gonna sell a million copies. Hamilton. Has it gone double platinum yet?

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know, but I feel like there are a lot of cast recordings now that do have a similar blend and mix and sound, if that makes sense. Maybe. Maybe they're not all recorded the same exact way, but maybe. I feel like you're trying to capture a similar blend.

[Brian Nash]

Wicked did that. You know, they did. They did the instrumental tracks separately, but, I mean, so many cast albums sound like there was a weird period where they just got so dry. Yeah. Drowsy chaperone like you. Basically, the microphone is in Sutton's nasal passage. It's so dry. There's no breath on it. There's no sort of space. And like, Hamilton feels like an album that you can put on headphones and listen to and get an awareness of what it feels like in the theater. But it's not pretending you're in the theater.

[Matt Koplik]

No, it's not a theatrical sounding album. Nobody is. I mean, nobody is giving a theatrical performance. They are basically trying to channel the energy they have on stage into a studio. So everything is tempered.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, it's.

[Matt Koplik]

You don't feel like anything is muted, but it is more intimate. And I mean. Well, speaking of the lacus of wild Party, if you ever watch a video of what Toni Collette did on stage, as opposed to listening to her dialogue on the album, very different vocal types. She is aware she is on an album, and she translates her performance to that medium, and it's fucking brilliant anyway.

[Brian Nash]

Which is fascinating considering, like, she didn't do that like this. No, she's something that she was well versed in.

[Matt Koplik]

No, she was just a smart cookie. Still is.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

She's Toni Collette.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Come back to Broadway, baby. What was something that really struck you about Hamilton when you first saw it on stage?

[Brian Nash]

When I first saw it on stage, I was shocked by. And this is something that. Actually, a lot of people that I talked to who saw it had the opposite experience so much because I didn't listen. I think the album was. I can't remember if the album had just come out or was about to come out when I saw it.

[Matt Koplik]

You saw it in previews on Broadway. Yeah, it had not come out.

[Brian Nash]

It had not come out. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They. I believe they were. They were recording it as they began previews. Exactly. And it was. It opened. The album came out, like, pretty much a month after it opened.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Good. I. I refused to listen to anything before I went in. I was shocked at how clear the text was. I understood almost every word. And I remember when I listened back to the album once I got it, so much of it had registered. And as a history geek, I was shocked by how clear the storytelling was. Like, I didn't read the Chernobyl bio until after I knew the show. But, I mean, I knew. I knew a lot of that history already.

[Matt Koplik]

I have that behind you. I still have.

[Brian Nash]

Yet.

[Matt Koplik]

I've yet to read it.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, it's great.

[Matt Koplik]

I hear so. That's what I hear. I just. It's such a big book.

[Brian Nash]

It's. I love it. I love it. A big book.

[Matt Koplik]

So does Lynn, apparently. It's so big. That's what attracted Lynn to it. He was like, oh, look how big that book is.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. I'm just gonna sit here in the West Indies and read this book.

[Matt Koplik]

West Indies or Mexico? One of the two.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, you might have been.

[Matt Koplik]

I think it's Mexico.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

We. Everyone knows the story.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He was on vacation slash, his honeymoon, I believe, while.

[Brian Nash]

No, no, no. They're just on vacation, maybe.

[Matt Koplik]

Just vacation.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

While doing in the Heights his first year. And in the Heights, because he was in that for a little bit.

[Brian Nash]

He.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, he didn't do the whole run, but he did a good chunk of it.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then did it on tour for a little bit, too.

[Brian Nash]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

But he was on, I think, his first Vacation while in the Heights. And they went to Mexico and at the airport he was like, I need something to read. And he saw the Alexander Hamilton bio and he goes, huh? I know that he died in a duel and he's on the $10 bill. Let's see what this is about. And he pretty much devoured it on his entire vacay. He was messaging with Tommy Kail about in the Heights and he was like, reading the Alexander Hamilton book. Pretty good.

[Brian Nash]

And he will now be the next 28 years of your life.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. This will be what you're known for, bitch. The other thing on this vacation, if the timeline is correct, because he. One of the first songs he wrote was actually you'll be back.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And he got the title from Hugh Laurie at a bar. And so I'm like, I think he actually wrote the lyrics for you'll Be back while on vacation. So I was like, was Hugh Laurie at this resort?

[Brian Nash]

Could be.

[Matt Koplik]

It's possible. Just. I would have preferred it if they were like, oh, he saw Hugh Laurie also at the resort and he gave him the title for you'll Be Back as opposed to just at a bar. I'm like, yeah, come on, guys. Just keep it in. Keep it in mind.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. So many things are happening in Cancun.

[Matt Koplik]

Scissoring with Lin and Hugh. Do you know how the title came about, though? No, it was just. He was telling Hugh his idea for Hamilton, which it was supposed to be a concept album. That was the plan. Was like a hip hop concept album. Wasn't originally planned to be a musical, but. And so we had all these ideas for songs and one of the first ones that became fully formed was the George III song. And when he told Hugh Laurie that he was writing this song about George singing to the colonies as sort of a British breakup song, Hugh Laurie just waved his finger and went, you'll be back. And Lynn was like, that's the title.

[Brian Nash]

Yep. Yeah. And it is brilliant. That song is so well done.

[Matt Koplik]

It is. I wish you had seen Ryan d' Arcy James do it at the Public.

[Brian Nash]

I know, I know. I've since listened to it.

[Matt Koplik]

Jay Groff was great. But there was something about this. This cast of, you know, not to be disparaging, like, mostly younger talent, not some of the musical theory, but not really giving musical theater sounding performances. Much more pop, hip hop styled musical theater. And then Brian D' Arcy James coming out stodgy, over 40 and singing purely musical theater sound. It was like such a contrast. You're like, yeah, old ways New way.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And J. Groff was great, but there was something about the pop sounding of his voice where it made the whole thing just one big kind of. Yeah, pop wash. Yeah, exactly. And so I missed that. That distinction.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah. I wish I'd seen him do it.

[Matt Koplik]

God, was he funny.

[Brian Nash]

I'm like, did I ever see him do it? I don't think I did.

[Matt Koplik]

He did do it on Broadway for a second, though.

[Brian Nash]

He did. I don't think I did because I think I got two Groffels and one. Oh, oh, oh, oh, Rory.

[Matt Koplik]

Rory, thank you.

[Brian Nash]

Okay, thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

Because it was on Broadway. It was Groffels. Randall's came in for a second.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then Groffels came back to do the pro shot.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then I believe Brian.

[Brian Nash]

Did he go in before Rory?

[Matt Koplik]

I think Rory did it next because Brian was in some. Like a. Was in something rotten at the time. That's part of the. Part of the. Why he couldn't finish the public extensions.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And he was in something Ron from. Oh, actually, no, you know what? Now that I'm thinking about it, it might have been Brian.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because by the time that the pro shot happened, something Ron had been open for over a year, so he probably left. Yeah. And did. And did Hamilton. And then I think was Rory. And then Taryn Killiam.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then Ewan Morton, I believe, with like some other randoms sprinkled in.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Did you do the tour?

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe Alexander Gemini?

[Brian Nash]

Alex Geminani.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, yeah, he did Chicago.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, I saw. I saw him do it.

[Matt Koplik]

I'll bet he was good.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Oh, he was fantastic.

[Matt Koplik]

He has surprised me in later years because I saw him in the Les Mis. The shrunken Les Mis. Which no one really.

[Brian Nash]

22 year old Jean Valjean.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, the pingiest Valjean. I mean, no one really came off great in that revival, but I feel like there was one other.

[Brian Nash]

No, I think Daphne Ruben Vega was glorious.

[Matt Koplik]

She's already had her moment in the Ren episode. We've talked about that. We don't blame her for being cast and we don't blame her for not being able to convince the creative team to change the keys for her.

[Brian Nash]

Say it.

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[Brian Nash]

They dropped Dream to Dream a half step.

[Matt Koplik]

Did they drop Fantine's death?

[Brian Nash]

No, they did not. They shouldn't have not. They did not drop.

[Matt Koplik]

You let your father send me away. Oh, my big one is. And tell her that I love her and I'll see her when I wake.

[Brian Nash]

Look, I. I will accept that choice. Although I love more than a Randy Graff Scream belt Death. Oh, God, that I love her.

[Matt Koplik]

Her. Fantine was like my last breath. Go make it count.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. I mean, the fucking Tony the best.

[Matt Koplik]

Which she did not get for that. Wasn't even nominated.

[Brian Nash]

Nope. Shame.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, Kunzy was. And we allow. We allow Kunzy to get the nod, but I mean, the perfect one is Henschel in the concert, in my opinion.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a perfect just balance, you know, it's great. It's beautiful. It's. It's. She's dying. It sounds it.

[Brian Nash]

Debbie Byrne, who was the Australian opera singer who does it on the symphonic recording, fully like head legit flip, but for some reason seems see how when I waa, I'm like, no, no, bitch.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, it's like Babs in Funny Girl with Cornette man Silver. Like the way it feels on a tongue.

[Brian Nash]

Gay people.

[Matt Koplik]

Gay people. This has been so gay already. And we haven't even really discussed any song in full.

[Brian Nash]

Nope.

[Matt Koplik]

Let's go back to the opening for a second. Actually, wait, before we do that, we have to take a break.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, great.

[Matt Koplik]

Really? I beg to differ with you. How do you mean?

[Brian Nash]

You're the top. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top.

[Brian Nash]

You're a Coolidge dollar.

[Matt Koplik]

Back to the opening number.

[Brian Nash]

And we're back.

[Matt Koplik]

This opening song we talk about.

[Brian Nash]

There are so many quotes in this show.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, so this is the song that kind of started at all, though, because this is the first song to.

[Brian Nash]

Get publicly shown at the White House.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Lynn was invited by the Obamas to sing perform something from in the Heights because it was part of their initiative to really showcase America's artists, which I always appreciated. But Lin decided to do the opening song of the Hamilton mixtape, which was still supposed to be a concept album at the time, although I don't remember how he worded it exactly, just that he was writing a hip hop thing about the American he thinks best resembles embodies. Hip hop Treasury Secretary Alexander Hamilton. And then he goes, you laugh.

[Brian Nash]

Mm.

[Matt Koplik]

And he does the whole thing as a big sung monologue. And it originally was supposed to be from the perspective of Burr, the whole thing. And then as they were developing it for nostage, they went, I really think we should have the entire casting snippets of it. So there. It's mostly the same song as we know it. If you watch the original couple, era changes and sometimes it's like a tweak of L word.

[Brian Nash]

We are waiting in the weeds for you, I think was the original. Yeah, yeah. Something like that. Yeah, yeah. I also am fascinated by the fact like that was at a. Basically a White House poetry read. Yeah. I'm like, that must have been the most boring night of everyone's life. And then that happens. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I think things like James Earl Jones did a poem, things like that. And then you get Lynn coming in and be like, snap your fingers.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Alex is gonna play that on this 280 year old piano.

[Matt Koplik]

And now for something we hope you really don't like.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah, it's. That makes me so happy. Michelle just like, is like, oh, thank God. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

She's snapping. And then Barack is just sitting there with his hand on his chin being like, huh, yeah.

[Brian Nash]

Interesting. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He talks about how the sort of influence of this song comes from Sweeney Todd, which makes sense especially because they then did this song at the Easter Bonnet where they did the whole plot of Sweeney Todd to the song Alexander Hamilton.

[Brian Nash]

Yep, yep.

[Matt Koplik]

So it's, it's definitely in there. And yeah. I mean, what do you think about this song in terms of how it opens the show? Do you think it's effective as an opener? Do you think it's. What? What do you think?

[Brian Nash]

I mean, I think it's incredibly effective. It does. I mean, it does take the first like 40, 50 pages of the bio. Like here, it's a four minute song. Good luck. Follow along if you will. But I think what really makes it land is the choreography. The way that Andy Story tells through the choreography makes this onslaught of words kind of register more fully, which is what good choreography should do.

[Matt Koplik]

And doesn't always.

[Brian Nash]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

And I would maybe say not even always in Hamilton.

[Brian Nash]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure. I have one major complaint about the Broadway production of Hamilton. It's that I do think it is sometimes overstaged slash choreographed. Sure.

[Brian Nash]

But I feel like the moment that is, you know, the most overstaged is so effective that I am too delighted to care.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure. We'll get to the moment that I think is. Is too much.

[Brian Nash]

I'm. I'm assuming it's the same moment. Go on.

[Matt Koplik]

Possibly.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I'll give you a hint. It is an Act 2.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, maybe not then.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe not.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, there are other times where I'm just like, that's a lot of choreo. But it's effective. Sure, sure. This is a moment where I'm like, oh, no, the ensemble should not be here right now.

[Brian Nash]

But oh, okay. Yeah, I got you.

[Matt Koplik]

I remember thinking at the Public, I still thought it on Broadway. I still think it today. It's not that it's a. That it's a flaw. It is a very strong opening number and, you know, does all the things it needs to do. But, you know, my Shot is really just like such an epic.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Song that I remember at the public at intermission, we are like, that second song was better than the first one. Right. Like, and. And which is really kind of a blessing. It's great luck to have like a really strong opening and an even better second song. But at the time I remember a lot of us were like, should my shot be the opening number? Like, it's. It was said if it felt. Felt so like it is.

[Brian Nash]

And there is. Look, there is one moment in the opening number that I think is absolutely, unforgivably bad. Oh, and it's Lyn's first line. It's for a show that has such clear and well written rhymes to go. Alexander Hamilton. My name is Alexander Hamilton. There's a million things I haven't done. Just like. Oh, yeah, that doesn't rhyme.

[Matt Koplik]

You have to really force the Hamilton.

[Brian Nash]

You have to.

[Matt Koplik]

Hamilton.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. But they don't say his name that way throughout any of the restaurants.

[Matt Koplik]

Just for the opening.

[Brian Nash]

It's fully. And just in that line. And he kind of doesn't do it. And it's just such a very fully. Nobody in all of Oz, no wizard that there is are waz where they make them say waz because otherwise it doesn't rhyme. Yeah. It kills my soul just a little bit. Especially because Lyn also just totally misses the note.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

The million things I haven't done. I'm like, what?

[Matt Koplik]

And he said that the melody line for Alexander Hamilton comes from the fact that like every time he would just hear the name, that's how he would sort of say it to himself. Alexander Hamilton. And yeah, no, it fits. It's a very melodic name. But yeah, listen, Lynn will be the first one to tell you he's not the world's best singer. No, no. And it's. And it's. I thought that's. I will say. I remember seeing. When I finally saw the show on Broadway, I was like, oh, someone took a voice lesson because there was a greater heft to his voice. And when he did in the Heights. But yeah, like for something like that, that is a very precise melody. That is the name of the show and our protagonist. It helps to have someone who's really hitting dem notes well.

[Brian Nash]

And even on the album when it's like, honey, do it again. Like if you can't adjust it and Melodyne and like fix the damn, like auto tune it. And there's a million things I haven't done. Yeah. But it's probably like million things I haven't done. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He like kind of talks it off the ledge. I don't know, maybe they're like, it's real, it's, it's, it's human, it's real, it's raw, baby.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. The number of times I've said that in the studio and then instantly regretted my choice when I get the album back. Yep. Happens a lot.

[Matt Koplik]

Happens all the time. The life of an artiste.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

The one thing about the Hamilton the Revolution book that gets my goat a little bit. And it's the same thing with the producers, How We did it book. Are you familiar with that one?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Both books are made because when they, when the shows came out, it was collectively, collectively agreed. Oh, wow. Everything about this is perfect. How did it happen? And everyone involved was like, well, let us tell you. And so every chapter is like, here's how it could have gone wrong, but here's how they ultimately saw the error of their ways and did the perfect choice.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And everything is just sort of always like. I mean, again, like they're trying to sell the book about a show that, you know, it's a love letter to. So of course everything about it's going to be a love letter, but it doesn't always feel objective when like they're talking about the set of how like it could feel like a nightclub, the way that it's lit and like, isn't that wonderful? And it's like kind of. But also like, maybe that's not as effective for everybody. Yeah, but, and, and you know, I think the set is very effective, but I think what makes it so effective to me is less the fact that it feels modern and more that it's sort of, I don't know, is very amenable to everything that the show needs it to be.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

That's all.

[Brian Nash]

I mean, I feel the same way when I'm reading the Complete Aspects of Love, which is the version of that book that came out after that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but they did that for Aspects of Love.

[Brian Nash]

Yes, because they. My first Broadway show.

[Matt Koplik]

And at the time were you like, oh, this is perfect.

[Brian Nash]

Yes. And then I saw the tour where they like stripped back the set and like made it all very atmospheric because they couldn't afford to tour that because the show was not well received. No, it was not. And I furiously went home in my, you know, 12 year old brain. I Was like, this is bullshit. They cut the set like, no, then. And I basically restaged the production in. No, in my bedroom. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

That's what we all did as children.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. So I mean, I love the self congratulatory, like deep exploration book, especially when it's like. Of a show that didn't go. I have the. Oh God, Sunset Boulevard from screen to stage, which was done after the London production, before everything went to shit. So it like ends right after it opens in London with Patty and Kevin Anderson.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, geez.

[Brian Nash]

And then it's like, you have no idea what's gonna happen.

[Matt Koplik]

You. Oh, you poor stupid little baby. You have no idea. Yeah, there's a book about screen to stage and stage to screen adaptations, and they do one on Sunset Boulevard. And it's pretty honest about the show's reception as well as what the author thinks of the show.

[Brian Nash]

Oh.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is similar to how I feel. I had a listener message me today, actually, because he just listened to the Sunset Boulevard episode of this podcast and I don't remember a damn thing I said on it, but apparently I described. I described that score, the. The. The range of that score as tiramisu filled with broken glass.

[Brian Nash]

Jesus.

[Matt Koplik]

Hamilton.

[Brian Nash]

Hamilton. Well, so, okay, act two, act two.

[Matt Koplik]

So we don't have to go like song by song. We really can go all over the place. So we've talked about the opening, we've hinted at. You'll be back. What is your ultimate favorite song in Hamilton?

[Brian Nash]

Satisfied.

[Matt Koplik]

Never heard of her. Yeah, talk to me about it. What is it? Set the scene.

[Brian Nash]

So set the scene in a. Here's. Here's what Satisfied is. If you've never heard of Satisfied.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, yes, okay. I talked about this on the fucking uriTown episode because Mark 2 Minelli got so annoyed with having to try to explain the plot of Urinetown, he basically stopped and said, go on YouTube and watch the bootleg, then come back and.

[Brian Nash]

Listen to this episode.

[Matt Koplik]

And I said, Marcus to Manelius. I once had to host a Q and A with Hamilton actors for this corporate event. And the person who facilitated the thing asked me on the sly, when you get a moment, could you explain what Hamilton is in case there's anyone here who doesn't know it? And I thought to myself, you guys have a Hamilton event and some people here don't know it. Like it's such a. It's such a specific thing to ask for. You would assume that people that it was asked for because everyone knew it. But so now I go by the bylines of, of course Everyone who's listening to this podcast knows Hamilton. Yes. But on the off chance that someone has forgotten or they've taken this chance to be like, I don't want to know anything about it till I see it live. And they're sticking to their guns, like you did. Sure. Set the scene.

[Brian Nash]

So instead, they will listen to a seven hour podcast with two homosexuals going off in K holes talking about. Not the show.

[Matt Koplik]

Don't tempt me with a good time.

[Brian Nash]

Yep, yep. There's still some bacon left. So Satisfied is a number about, you know, almost halfway through Act 1, in which Angelica, the Schuyler sister whom, spoiler alert, Hamilton does not end up marrying, sees him and is like, oh, oh, hell yeah. Yeah, I could do that. And then selflessly decides to let her sister bang him instead. And it's all told as a toast at the wedding. And then the entire stage revolves backwards.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because we've seen the whole story play out from Eliza's perspective. And Helpless. I am not here for this. Philippa Sue. Erasure.

[Brian Nash]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

And we get the happy ending. It's a nice little song. Song. And as Angelica gives her two, as Lizzie said, she said satisfied. And that's the trigger word.

[Brian Nash]

And rewind, rewind, rewind. And it does. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Fun fact. When I was touring the country in theaterworks as we the People, our sole girl in the cast had an audition for a swing in Hamilton at the Public.

[Brian Nash]

Oh.

[Matt Koplik]

Because after Fun Home at the Public, the public didn't used to have understudies because the runs were so short. And then with Fun Home, there was a case where a performer couldn't go on due to an anxiety attack, I believe, and they had to cancel the show. And Spielberg was in the audience, and they're like, fuck. So they hired an understudy the next day. And since then, there have been understudies at the Public. But yes, and especially for that show, having swings just made sense because it's such a physically demanding piece. But she was going in for a swing and she had to learn Satisfied, which was, we were in the backseat of the car driving to the next gig listening to Lin Manuel Miranda sing it on repeat. So I knew the basic premise of the song. So when I saw it at the Public and Helpless happened, I was like, wait a second. What comes? When do we get the moment where Angelica, like, talks about all this? Like, did they cut that song? And then she begins her toast and then they did the rewind and I just went, oh, yeah, it was. It's one of those Moments. That's so easy to make fun of now because everybody knows it, but the element of surprise really adds your appreciation to it.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. And when they physically. Okay. Yes. So when the cast physically rewinds, like, moves in reverse, the turntables go backwards and there's this brilliant, you know, Ableton effect where they've taken an actual recording of the song and play it backwards. Oh, I lost my ever loving mind.

[Matt Koplik]

I'll bet you did.

[Brian Nash]

That is so good. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then we get helpless through the eyes of Angelica.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I love how you described it. Like we were in a gay club.

[Brian Nash]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

I. I would love to see the Eva Van Hoffe production of Hamilton that takes place at Industry.

[Brian Nash]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's just a bunch of shirtless men. And when Satisfy comes on, it's just everybody's fucking in the bathrooms.

[Brian Nash]

Yep, yep, yep. That's not inaccurate.

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[Brian Nash]

There are remixes, so I'm sure that's happened.

[Matt Koplik]

So this is what it feels like to match with for someone at your level. What the hell is the catch? It's the feeling of freedom, of seeing the light. It's Ben Franklin with the key and a kite. You see it, right? The conversation lasted two minutes, maybe three minutes. Everything we said in total agreement. Three minutes. A bit of a dance, a bit of a posture. It's a bit of a stand.

[Brian Nash]

He's a bit of a flirt, but I'm going give it a chance.

[Matt Koplik]

I asked about his family.

[Brian Nash]

Did you see his answer?

[Matt Koplik]

His hands started fidgeting.

[Brian Nash]

He looked askance.

[Matt Koplik]

He's penniless. He's flying by the seat of his pants. Handsome boy, does he know it. Peach fuzz. Then he can't even grow it. I want to take him far away from this place. Then I turn and see my sister's face and she is so friend.

[Brian Nash]

I. The. The magical thing about Satisfied is how absolutely, brilliantly fast that rhyme is being spit, as the children say. Like, she's absolutely incredible. Like, as a character. It just defines her so clearly and so well. Yeah, yeah. It's a great damn song.

[Matt Koplik]

It is a great song. And I mean, Renee absolutely spits the verse. It's also. I mean. So the way that rap is used in this show is interesting because it wasn't the intention originally to make this a sung through, rapped through musical when they decided to turn it from the concept album to a musical, which happened, I believe, after the. Yeah, they decided to turn into a musical after they performed at Lincoln center for the American Songbook when Jeffrey Seller was in the audience and Went up to Lynn, he was like, this isn't an album, this is a musical. And so they spent some time developing it as a musical and then did a reading at the. And that's how they got the public connection. I meant to get back to this for a second, but what's his face? Jeremy McCarter got put on the artistic staff of the public. And when Oscar Eustace was like, we need new works and we need new writers, McCarter was like, well, Lynn's writing a Hamilton thing, and so brought him in. And they decided to sort of co produce it with Jeffrey Seller. And they did a reading of the first act with a book writer, some apparently well known playwright that they refused to name. And they did it and they. Afterwards, they went, this just doesn't work with book scenes. We need everything. There's too much information to cover.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And rap gets it all across so much faster, so much more economically. And on top of that, Lin also wanted rap to kind of show every character's levels of intelligence and world perspective. So he talked. Speaking of my shot, he talks about how when we start, we have, you know, very simple, Mr. Burr, sir, bada bada bah. And then we go into the bar and we have, I'm John Laurenson, the place to be. Ba doo ba boo, ba da da ba ba da ba. And then Hamilton comes in, starts spitting 5,000 words a second.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And changing up the tempo, changing up the meter, the rhythm. And just showing that his brain is working so much faster than everybody else's. And so speed with rap is shown as a sign of intelligence in this show. And so Eliza, not Liza, Angelica having.

[Brian Nash]

That same rhythm, having the same rhythm.

[Matt Koplik]

And the same speed as Hamilton shows that they are mentally soulmates.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. If.

[Matt Koplik]

If not for other ways or. And maybe they are and just never could be because Angelica falls on her sword for her sister. Although this is another sort of tricky thing where Lynn is telling sort of like a half truth of what the reality is. And he wanted this to be taken seriously by historians. And Ron Chernow was a consultant on the show. And there were times when Ron Chernow would be like, that's not correct, lan. And Lynn's like, okay, so. And she's like, moved on.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

For example, there were not just three Schuyler sisters, there actually were a bunch of sons. So the line, my father has no son, so I'm the one who has a social climb for one. Not true lies. Also, Angelica was married. She was already married by the time that they met Alexander Yeah. So it's. Even the connection they had was true. There are letters to prove that.

[Brian Nash]

Fun other fact. Aaron Burr, his previous duel was with Angelica's husband.

[Matt Koplik]

Ha.

[Brian Nash]

Like five years before the Hamilton duel. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And what's ironic is that before that Burr was on record as to hating duels, thinking that very anti duel thought they were stupid. In fact stopped a couple.

[Brian Nash]

And yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Lynn was like, clearly he changed his mind eventually. But that. But that is in the show. During the 10 dual commandments. Is that what it's called?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah. So can we agree the duels are stupid and immature? Yeah. Something like that. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Something in Ruinous. Okay. So we're doing this. There's so many words to know in this show, guys. Par dono. Pardon. But yeah. So the. The speed of which is impressive just on the talent level, but then also what it means for the character of Angelica, which I really appreciate. And there. And it takes its moments to stop and reflect which I really enjoy. And it doesn't. I don't know. There's like no blame in the song. It's just what she's chosen to do.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And you know, she'll have regrets about it but ultimately she is happy with the choice she made. I guess because she. She loves her sister more than her own well being.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is martyrdom if ever I heard it.

[Brian Nash]

Yep. Yep. Noble, what is your favorite song in the show?

[Matt Koplik]

I hate to be that, but probably Skyler Sisters.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's really fun.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And also, I mean it's. I remember seeing it at the public and thinking like that's cute. And then they. It was like 80 the song that it became on Broadway. The vast majority of it was the same, but there were just certain tweaks they did how to build it. They added all the harmonies for the three Skyler sisters because that was their vocal warm up backstage sort of be in sync was they would do three part harmonies in their dressing room and Lin heard it. He's like, we gotta include that. So that became part of the song. And so by the time it got to Broadway and was sort of rebuffed, it became like my absolute favorite song. I also, I mean I'll never forget where I was when I first saw Leslie Odom Jr. Do the room where it happens.

[Brian Nash]

Oh wow.

[Matt Koplik]

And there are certain moments at a show where everyone in the audience has the same collective response and. And like to a specific moment. Not like a button, but. So I can recall seeing Kimberly Akimbo at the Atlantic and Victoria Clarke singing Getting Older Is your getting older? Is my affliction getting older? Is your cure.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And everyone just going. 300 people just going. Strange loop at Playwrights Horizons when Larry Owens as Usher says, you wanted a gospel play. This is the only way I know how to write it. And everyone just went. And then Hamilton, when Leslie Odom Jr's doing. No one was in the room. Or it happens. And then it gets to the. What do you want, Bert? What do you stand for? You get nothing if you don't wait. If you just wait for it. What do you want, Bert? What do you want? I. I want to be in the room where it happens. And everyone just went, oh. The entire thing just felt like, you know, a classic narration. Yeah. Che Guevara singing about money, cats rolling in or whatever. And then it connects. This is where Hamilton does Evitas better is. Whereas Che is just always the narrator. This relates back to Burr personally as a character and gives him motive for the rest of Act 2. And we spent all of the show leading up to this, so it's earned. And so to hear that moment come, and clearly no one expected it. And we're like, oh, we all just realized that's what we're doing in this song. I love it.

[Brian Nash]

Also, there's a banjo.

[Matt Koplik]

There is a banjo.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, God, I love the banjo.

[Matt Koplik]

And that was their audio promo on the radio when the show was going to Broadway. They just played a little bit of Rumor It Happens with the banjo. And everyone was like, what is this score? Banjo for the first time in how long? Probably since Big motherfucking River.

[Brian Nash]

Yep, yep. And I'm here for it.

[Matt Koplik]

My also hot take, by the way. The Apropos of nothing. And we'll get into it further with Disney plus, but the B roll footage of the show, which they released in full pretty soon after the show came out. This show, the. The way that this show teased material and kept itself in the. In the media is pretty brilliant. And one of the things they did was they pretty much released. They had no B roll footage for a couple of months, and then they released all of it on YouTube, like five months in. Really?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You can watch it. It should still be up there. I think that the B roll footage is better shot than the production.

[Brian Nash]

Disney plus. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Than the Disney plus. Absolutely. I think that it's edited together better. You see certain things better.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. I mean, the. The use of Ariana is incredible as the bullet. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's just really fucking brilliant.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, she's like kind of the angel of Death.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just. Just. It's. It's. It's wicked. Wicked smart.

[Matt Koplik]

Wicked smat. It sounds like a fool's errand to say, what's your favorite Hamilton song? Because there's so many to choose from. And when we say favored, you're not always saying best. Right. And. And I feel like people choose it. Choose their songs. Like, you know, what's your sign? They think it says something about them. If you're like, oh, well, my personal favorite song is, you know, stay alive. I know it's only 40 seconds, but I find it very moving. Like, go yourself.

[Brian Nash]

Although I am down. Yeah. I am defeated. Like, that's. That's my. That's my damn jam.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, I am the same way about. I think. What is it called? Merci beaucoup, monsieur Godard in passing. Strange. That is my favorite song, and it is only two minutes of just La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la la. But at least in my defense, for that one, she is a bop.

[Brian Nash]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Skylar, Defeated is not a bop.

[Brian Nash]

It's not. It's not a bop. It's a reprise.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure. Sure fucking is.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Also, a lot of musical theater references in this show.

[Brian Nash]

So many.

[Matt Koplik]

1776, last five years, Camelot.

[Brian Nash]

There's a. Okay, so there's apparently a Les Mis reference in Story of Tonight that. Yeah. He doesn't. He deliberately doesn't say what it is. There was a. Or maybe it was on Twitter that there was a melodic. There was some kind of quote, a Les Mis reference in Story of Tonight, and I don't know what it is, and I know Les Mis like the back of my goddamn hand.

[Matt Koplik]

I know Les Mis like the inside of your butthole, which is to say not at all.

[Brian Nash]

Which is shameful.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's a shame. Listen, homophobia comes in all shapes and sizes.

[Brian Nash]

You ought to get to know the inside. You ought to. Les Miserables. You ought to know Les Miserables.

[Matt Koplik]

I. I know Les Miserables better than I know my own family. It's to the point where I have made a case for the melodic repetitions in the show, as I think that they all make sense.

[Brian Nash]

They're leitmotifs, of course. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But, you know, like how people complain with Andrew Lloyd Webber and when he repeats stuff, and I think there's an argument to be made against him sometimes. Some of them work, some of them don't. Lemon is, I think, like, 98% of the motifs being reused work.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. I mean, same thing with. Honestly, aspects of Love.

[Matt Koplik]

But I'm not that familiar with it. Isn't there like a whole retrospective bit about pancakes?

[Brian Nash]

No, I could have sworn there was no pancakes.

[Matt Koplik]

Someone mentioned something about like, I don't know, something about cooking something.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah, no, there are. There are a bunch of food things.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, a lot of food things. Okay. But not pancakes.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot going on.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, I guess you could say the very beginning of it has a little Drink with Me vibes.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. But I mean, he's like. There's like a direct melodic quote. I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about here. No, Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know.

[Brian Nash]

He was basically challenging people to find all the references on Twitter. And he's like, no, there's a Les Misquote in Story of Tonight.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm sure he thinks there is.

[Brian Nash]

I'm like, I don't know that that's the melody that you think it is.

[Matt Koplik]

No, he also. I mean, he forgot that there were Schuyler brothers. So who's to say? But I mean, he does have a very encyclopedic knowledge of musical theater and there are certain shows that he's very passionate about. Les Mis. Rent Sweeney Todd. So, yeah, I'm. I mean, I like having the Camelot reference Samoa and nobody needs to know.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, the lame. Is this kind of reference just in sort of how the show moves, though.

[Brian Nash]

Yes, it does feel very much. I mean, notwithstanding the turntable.

[Matt Koplik]

But the turntable, though, like, it's a three part turntable.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Not something you see very often. We have it with Hadestown, but that's, you know, again, it's rare. Usually turntables are just like the one piece.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Not often do you see a two piece or even a three.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, it's. And it does really help the momentum of the show move the way that it should.

[Matt Koplik]

I remember. And this is an example of sometimes people being passionate but stupid.

[Brian Nash]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

When Hamilton was going into the Rogers, it was coming in right after if Then.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, God, yeah, her.

[Matt Koplik]

And somebody asked on the lines, is not, I guess, not knowing that Hamilton had already been off Broadway, Whatever. But they. They said like, so Hamilton's going into the theater that if Then was in. Is the turntable like a reference to that? Yeah, like, did they just keep the turntable? And pretty much immediate response was like, you know that this show has been in development since before if Then came out on Broadway. That it's also that, like, it played for months before I moved to Broadway. Oh, and by the way, it's more likely a reference to Les Mis's turntable than to if then's turntable.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. I don't think anyone is using if then as a reference for anything except for a very niche play off Broadway, which I saw. Yeah. How was that?

[Matt Koplik]

It wanted to do what significant other did in regards to the relationship between a straight woman and a gay man in addition to a lot of other things. And I don't think it really succeeded, but it also did talk a bit about kind of fan actor culture.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

When actors start to become more successful, they become less fans of the thing because it's not cool.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's like, well, no, you're. You're doing this because you like it. Right. Not just because someone told you you're pretty and talented, like, and you decided, oh, maybe I'll make a career out of everyone seeing my face and body. Yeah, it's because you actually like theater. It's why you put up with the rejection. And so I liked.

[Brian Nash]

They.

[Matt Koplik]

They explored that, if not as fully as I would have liked.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. I mean, theater geekery is. I love theater actors who are also theater geeks.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. I think those are the best ones.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

People who know their shit. I mean, like, listen, guys, Audra McDonald's a theater geek. Yes. She's got six fucking Tonys.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Huge theater geek. Be a theater geek, people.

[Brian Nash]

I imagine death so much. It feels more like a memory. When's it gonna get me in my sleep?

[Matt Koplik]

7Ft ahead of me?

[Brian Nash]

If I see it coming Do I run or do I let it be? Is it like a beat without a melody? See, I never thought I'd live past 20 where I come from, some get half as many. Ask anybody why we living fast and we laugh Reach for a blast we have to make this moment last that's plenty. Scratch that. This is not a moment. It's the movement.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, there's a million references in the show and direct lines from certain pop songs and R B songs and hip hop songs to the point that the royalties on the show for other artists is pretty large. Not like. Not Moulin Rouge events, because. No, the truth is that. Yeah, the truth is that Lin did not actually have to pay anybody royalties because he used just enough that it did not violate copyright law, but he felt that it was the right thing to do. And they negotiated a royalty for every artist whose work is sampled in the show.

[Brian Nash]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And there are even. There are even pieces where there were larger samples that they had to cut down. Or eliminate completely, because they're like, we can't afford to pay this person every week for using these 30 seconds.

[Brian Nash]

Yep. Yeah. But you know, Jason. Robert Brown bought a car because of Hamilton. Yeah. I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

Something.

[Brian Nash]

Maybe something, you know, I saw he's going to college.

[Matt Koplik]

I saw him in concert somewhere and he talked about. Not Hamilton. We did talk about Jason's song, Diana Grande. And they're. And they were asking him, like, oh, what was the response to that? He's like, it was mostly Twitter, just going, who's Jason?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah, that's basically it. And then, you know, just a gentle pile of cash.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, exactly. Send those kids off to any college they want.

[Brian Nash]

Imagine what it would have been if, like, it was still an era in which you had to buy an album.

[Matt Koplik]

I know.

[Brian Nash]

Like, my God, the money. Yeah. Seriously. I mean, Patty Griffin is a, like, folk songwriter that I adore, and she made, I think, two and a half million dollars because her, like, one of her songs was on Susan Boyle's first album. Oh, my God. Tragic.

[Matt Koplik]

I really wanted, when Hamilton goes and fucks Mariah Reynolds, the moment he enters her, to go, ooh, look what you made me do. Look what you made me do. Look what you just made me. Look what you just made me do. I wanted that for him. I wanted that for both of them. Vivid, vivid.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, also just flagging something brilliant in the opening number. The me, I fought for him, Me, I loved him. Me, I died for him. Yeah. Like the fact that it's true of both characters that each of those actors play, I'm like, that's really good. That's just really good.

[Matt Koplik]

Lynn thinks so, too.

[Brian Nash]

I'm. I know he does, but I am duly impressed with it. And bravo.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, you know, sometimes when you create something and you look back and you're like, I don't know what was going on in my head that day that made me come up with this, but looking back, I'm really fucking impressed with myself. And that's one of those moments. And because, yeah, it is double casting. First of all, the characters of Hercules, Mulligan, John Lawrence and Lafayette also play Thomas Jefferson, Philip Schuyler, and God, what's his face? James Madison.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So Jefferson and Madison, in Act 2, fight with Hamilton. You know, mentally and politically, they spar with him. But in Act 1, when they're Lafayette and Mulligan, they fight with him in the war. So when they say, we fought with him, we fought with him. And we fought with him. And then when Philip, when the actor who plays Philip Lawrence says, I died for him. He means it in both senses. Because Lawrence dies in Act 1. Spoiler alert. And Philip Schuyler, their eldest son, dies in Act 2. Spoiler 2. And the me I loved him. It's. At the moment, we think it's just the three Schuyler sisters.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because Angelica and Eliza did love him. Not Peggy. But the actress plays Peggy also plays Mariah Reynolds.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And she probably didn't love him. Love him, but, you know, she put some love to him.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. And I think there is. There is a softness to that relationship where. Yeah. She's using him, but I think there is some kind of like, she's actually drawn to him.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. There's a connection there for sure.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Even though it was a honey pot situation.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But she still. I think she still liked that D. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brian Nash]

I mean, it was legendarily good.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And apparently with legendary eyes. So while he was dicking you down, you could look into his green eyes.

[Brian Nash]

And go, ooh, baby, look what you made me do.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, that's where you add in Kelly Clarkson's behind these Hazel Eyes.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Oh, here I am.

[Matt Koplik]

We love it. We love to see it.

[Brian Nash]

I love Kelly Clarkson. I love. I loved when Kelly Clarkson sang Hamilton.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. She sang It's Quiet Uptown.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. And it was gorgeous.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, Kelly's amazing.

[Brian Nash]

Kelly's amazing. But also, it's like, I love that shit. Kelly Clarkson also covered the same Patty Griffin song that Susan Boyle did.

[Matt Koplik]

So what is this Patty Griffin song?

[Brian Nash]

Up to the Mountain. It's this beautiful song. Kelly did it on, like, Idol Gives Back or some shit. But Patty also wrote a bunch of stuff for, like, Dixie Chicks. So there's like that when they were still Dixie Chicks before they were just the chicks.

[Matt Koplik]

The chicks.

[Brian Nash]

The chicks.

[Matt Koplik]

The chicks.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, the.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, you just said it now, but I'll say it since I brought it up earlier. The song that I think is the number one culprit of being overstaged is Quiet Uptown.

[Brian Nash]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

That is. That is not a song where I need the ensemble to come onto the turntable and become trees.

[Brian Nash]

No. But the forgiveness moment is so gorgeous, and I break.

[Matt Koplik]

I can have them all on the sides of the stage for forgiveness.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

That is fine. For 95 of that song. I just want to watch Philippa sue cry.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yes. I. I don't disagree.

[Matt Koplik]

She cries so well.

[Brian Nash]

She does it so well. She does all things so well. It's not until you see other people play that role that you realize how effortlessly brilliant Philippa Sue. Hey.

[Matt Koplik]

I deal with you I do.

[Brian Nash]

Hopeless.

[Matt Koplik]

Look into your eyes and the sky's the limit I'm helpless Yeah. As we were saying before, some shows moving from Off Broadway to Broadway just. Just get better. Sometimes it's a simple matter of, like, being in a larger space, like, Hamilton allows it to breathe. Some shows like Fun Home and Kimberly Akimbo just, you know, use the time that they have in between transfers to really kind of fine tune the show and rethink it. Oh, well, Fun Home rethought. It's staging a design, which was when. I mean, I loved it at the public, and then I saw on Broadway, I'm like, how dare you make this go from a 10 to an 11?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Kimberly, you know, they don't do any major overhauls. I think the Act 1 finale.

[Brian Nash]

Finale.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Same staging, just different song.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But it's essentially the same set. They just sort of, you know, they're more hydraulics in it now. It flows a little bit better. It's just like, they would trim things here and there so we would get to bigger moments faster, and the whole thing just flows better, and it's bigger and it's more confident, and it's such a wonderful show. Details of that to come. But with Hamilton. Yeah. It's the same thing where, like, all most of the changes for Broadway were either, like, beefing up certain songs or, like, trimming here and there. Lynn had a very famous tweet when the show was in previews. He said, we've come to the point in previews where we put down the pencil and pick up the knife.

[Brian Nash]

Yes, true. I mean, Adam's administration went away. Yeah. There was that one moment in actually in Skyler Defeated, where Eliza has, like, this whole other scene that I recently listened to, and I'm like, oh, this kind of really beefs up Eliza. Yeah. And kind of shows how involved in his career she was. Yeah. Where right now in the show, she does feel a little bit like, you know, stay at home, milquetoast wife. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

She definitely. She becomes in that show just, like, such a beacon of goodness and, like, support. It's that when there's. Natalie Walker had that, like, famous Twitter sketch where she was like, woman in Oscar movie. Watch. Watching. Watching husband make history. And it's like her on the couch, like, watching the TV as her husband makes history. And, like, looking off screen, she's like, I'm fine. I'm fine. He did it. He made the history. And it's basically what's her face in Apollo 13. But that's often Eliza of like my husband, the genius. And I think what the show does really well is giving Eliza the last word.

[Brian Nash]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And sort of, you know, oh, this person who all we've ever known of her is that she's sweet. Ended up outliving everybody and doing so much with the time she got after Alexander died. And that's really lovely. But I would have liked some more moments in the show that gave her edge. For the most part, we just see her either be silent, quietly happy, or silently suffering.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Just quietly devastated. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Beatbox one.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think the. The cut, like now that I'm thinking about does make the ending more effective because we haven't seen her kind of assert herself. So seeing her kind of go down and try to smooth things over with Burr after he defeats her father, it's interesting. And Burr looking at her and being like, yeah, you need to take a page out of her book to Alexander. I kind of loved that moment. Yeah. A lot of the other cuts, I'm like, that could go, that's fine.

[Matt Koplik]

Something that Lynne talks about in the book with Angelica is like, Angelica is a top flight mind in a society that won't allow her to flex those muscles. And it doesn't feel like Eliza's given the same attitude that were like, Angelica's the brain, Eliza's the heart. And I think Eliza is smart. She just, you know, she makes choices that maybe not every, you know, so called smart female character in a musical or who we're meant to believe would be smart would make.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think intelligent people can make really heartfelt decisions sometimes. Intelligent people can make stupid decisions.

[Brian Nash]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

But because she leads with her hard, I feel like the show sometimes frames her as less intellectual, less intelligent.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because I don't know the ending, like, it shows how much she was capable of, but I don't feel like it always relates to her mind. It's more like, again, it's her passion, it's her heart, and it's all connected to Alexander. My dear Alexander. Which I did read the first chapter of the book, of the biography, because I think the first chapter is her. It's like it's her towards the end of her life and it's. She's blind at this point. She's super fucking old. And like all she's. All she can talk about is Alexander.

[Brian Nash]

Right. And he'd been dead for like 40 years. Yeah. Okay. What is your interpretation of the last moment? Yeah. Which. Okay. By the time we Got to Disney, when I saw was just like this devastating kind of like small gas.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

It's just a. Yeah. Like. Oh, wow. Yeah. As opposed to like now it sounds like she got punched in the fucking solar plexus. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, that's my other issue with that Disney plus recording. And so pin in, what does the last gasp mean? Yeah, but the Disney plus recording came about because they. Towards the end of the first year of the run, when they still had the original company except for Groff Sauce, they wanted to film the whole thing. For what reason? They had no idea. They just wanted to do it.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. And good. They should. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And this is coming a few months off the heels of the royalty battle, which we can get into in a second as well. It's not a very long story, but it does. It has also now started repercussions for other shows and how workshops go with that and how. I mean, I guess, like, labs are now, like, more common because of it or.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But when the pro shot happened, as I said, almost a year into the run, pretty much everyone was on board with it, except for one, Leslie Odom Jr. Who held out until the last possible second, wanted more money, wanted more blah, blah, blah. He knew he was winning the Tony in two months and his contract was up like a month after that anyway, and he was fully heading off to film, TV and. And pop music, which I guess he's been relatively successful at. He works. He works.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He doesn't mean he voices on Central Park. He was. He's been in a couple of movies like Murder on the Orient Express. He's not. No, he's not Daniel Craig's right hand man in the Knives out series. That's someone else. But he. I mean, I know he had an album. He did a commercial of some sort that was like, focused purely on him. I also remember Hollywood Reporter did a roundtable on actors from that Tony season. They tend to do that with Tonys.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And he, like, I think he's like, in a sweater with a scarf, like up to his chin, hands on the table, and they're sort of talking about race in the theater. What he says is not wrong. He just says it in such a inside the actor studio kind of way.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Where they're talking about sort of, you know, oh, has the race racial balance on Broadway been corrected now with Hamilton? And, you know, we have. And we also have Color Purple and shuffle along like, do you really, like, do you think we've got it? And he was like, I think we're Having a moment. It's like, I don't. He's like, how long it lasts, we shall see. He's like, but, no, I don't think it's over, and. Which is absolutely fair and turned out to be true. But again, he said it like, I think we're having a moment. And I'm like, go, dude.

[Brian Nash]

Talk.

[Matt Koplik]

To quote Burr about Eliza Hamilton, like, it's sometimes about how you say it as well as what it is that you are saying. And so he also.

[Brian Nash]

I don't understand his accent in the entire show.

[Matt Koplik]

No. And he has a weird cadence sometimes when he speaks.

[Brian Nash]

There's some very strange, like, Caribbean accent that comes out of everyone's eyes.

[Matt Koplik]

And a lot of hand acting. So much of it in the theater was so engrossing. Like, he was so fascinating to watch. And. And you got the sense that his character was always just sort of at a slight distance the entire time, taking everything light, so he could always be light and always be at the forefront. And there's something off about how he performs in that Disney Pro, Disney plus.

[Brian Nash]

I think he's exhausted. He, like, the voice isn't like, yeah, voice isn't great.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, they also did shoot it over three days.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They shot two live performances and then spent all day Monday shooting.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. So it's crunchy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. But also, like, his acting is weird. Like, there's just something about it that just feels a little shut down and, I don't know, like, I don't want to project. It just feels a little bit like that. But that's also kind of true of a lot of the company. Not that everyone's crunchy, but, like, oh, you've all been performing this for well over a year now. When we include Off Broadway and some of the workshops y' all have been a part of. Like, you've gotten to the point now where you've. Where the choices you've made are no longer, like, digging even deeper. It's. You've started to get bored, so you're making altered choices that are now detracting. Like Philippa's gasp.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And again, she's such a wonderful performer. But that thing, as you said, it's like she got kicked in the vagina.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And, oh, my girl, you're better than that. Come on, Juilliard. And.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So what does the gasp mean to you?

[Brian Nash]

I mean, I feel like. I don't feel like she's seeing him necessarily. I just feel like, you know, it's. It's the light, you know, she's basically going into the light.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure. I heard. I mean, there's so many. There are a million reasons. And, and Tommy Kail, the director and Lynn have never like.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, they'll deliberately, you know, kind of.

[Matt Koplik]

They've, they've, they've also said like every Eliza has a different. Yeah, they've now said like, it's up to the Eliza who does it.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

What it means the interpretation that I heard that I liked the most and it was the really. The kind of the first one out the gate. And it's. What I do think Philippa originally was doing was that it was no longer Alexander guiding her into the light, but Lin Manuel Miranda guiding Eliza to the front of the theater and real. And recognizing before she died what everything she and Alexander did led up to that all these years later, there are 1400 people in front of her who just sat and watched a musical about her husband's life. That it wasn't all for nothing.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And that is sort of the ultimate gift.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

That your life, not only that it mattered, but you will be remembered because so many of us won't be. Even if you do contribute something great to this world. Like, is it something that's gonna have that long of a lasting legacy, you know?

[Brian Nash]

Well, and Hamilton himself was kind of, you know, a little bit of dustbin of history. Yes. On the $10 bill. But it's like this guy was in a prison. Who the fuck is this guy?

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly.

[Brian Nash]

Nobody really knew.

[Matt Koplik]

And they knew the duel and they knew the ten dollar bill.

[Brian Nash]

That was it. Yeah. I mean, if they knew the duel at all. Just like there's this guy on the ten dollar bill.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I remember the duel in middle school.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. I mean, I, I know because I like this shit. But like, I don't think any normal human being sure on earth would just be like, oh yeah, Alexander Hamilton. He got killed in the duel and was on the $10 bill. Meanwhile, now.

[Matt Koplik]

What's your accent? How dare you come from my accent?

[Brian Nash]

I wasn't coming for it. I like a weird vocal choice, but like that suddenly now there's a full neighborhood in New York where basically it's Hamilton Heights. Yeah. Because Lynn bought all of like Washington Heights and now it's just Hamilton Heights.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, Hamilton Heights, that's south of Washington Heights, though.

[Brian Nash]

I know. Yeah. With you.

[Matt Koplik]

You haven't with me in years. I'm creaky, I'm unused. But yeah. Now because of the popularity of the show, their house is, you know, like a visiting destination. Their graves are destinations. There's like Hamilton tours all over the city. Hamilton pop up museums. It's. Yeah. And, like, there's so much about his life that is truly fascinating.

[Brian Nash]

It is fascinating.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And considering also, like, how young he was when he died and what he accomplished, you know, it. It's something that makes you think. And there is so much in our culture that we just make anybody famous. First of all, fame and. And important are two very different things. Just because you're famous right now does not mean you will be remembered for all time.

[Brian Nash]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Who the fuck remembers? God, what's her face from? I'm still here. Brenda Frazier.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, the ultimate like it girl for a year. Like that big debutante heiress or whatever. Super famous for two years. By 1975, everyone's like, who?

[Brian Nash]

Nicole Richie.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

Was the most famous human, you know, next to Paris for, you know, a good three and a half years.

[Matt Koplik]

Tara Reid.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, Terror Reid.

[Matt Koplik]

But I mean, we're also naming just women, but all these people, like, I. I hate to sound this kind of morbid, but, like, when Kim Kardashian dies, how long before every. Before the majority of people just go, wait, who?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Well, then at that point, I don't. I don't know. I don't know what that. That kind of fame, that kind of. Because, I mean, now she's a mogul. Like, what is the durability of that? Yeah. What do you look back, you know, I. My other thought, like, you know, of the gasp is Eliza turning around and seeing everything that her work has accomplished. Yes. In his honor, but her work.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

When Kim Kardashian comes to the end and looks back, will she gasp or.

[Matt Koplik]

She just go, like, the vocal fry?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. What do you do? Yeah. What have you done?

[Matt Koplik]

She'll finally have found that diamond earring in the ocean that she lost.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So, like, I mentioned this in my Kimberly Akimbo review of just sort of the limited time all of us have. And what is it that you want to do with it? And I think everyone should think of two things. How to enjoy their life in a way that doesn't necessarily bring harm to others. And what can you contribute to the world? You don't have to solve everything. It doesn't have to be the most important thing in the world. Can you leave something behind that can stick around for just a little bit? Mm. And it does. Whether it's one tiny thing or one big thing or a million little things, it doesn't matter. But something, you know, try to. You know, they always say, like, you know, leave something better than when you found it or whatever. Like, I feel like that's the way we should be about our lives with the world. Try to leave a little pocket of the garden, like in Candide. Make our garden grow. Try to leave a little pocket a little better than how you found it. And that is something that I would argue Alexander didn't really do with his life. He didn't necessarily make anything better. He helped build something, and that launched Eliza for the rest of her life to make things better.

[Brian Nash]

Right. And I mean, I don't know, like, a lot of what he founded and what a lot of what it created was to make things better for. Yeah. You know, not only for the nation, but for, you know, humans in general.

[Matt Koplik]

Some of those things have come under scrutiny since, which comes into the backlash.

[Brian Nash]

Of Aliza, the New York Post in particular.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, well, and the banking system, like Hamilton, for anything. It is a truth universally acknowledged that when something becomes very, very popular, there will be backlash. And then the backlash will die down. There will be backlash to say backlash, and then backlash will come again. And interestingly enough, when the Disney plus pro shot happened, because with. With the pro shot filming, basically they sat on it for like six years and then sold it to Disney Plus.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

For $75 million.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because there was a talk of, oh, they're going to release it in theaters on the 10th anniversary. Oh, they're going to sell the movie rights. They might have even sold the movies, I don't know. But it ended up going to Disney, which aired it during the summer of 2020.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it was really big for them, was a big get and ended up working out well for them. But they're from that many people who had never seen Hamilton before or kids who had only known the album or tried to watch a bootleg online on pornhub maybe, and watched it on Disney plus. All of a sudden they're becoming titled. What was the title?

[Brian Nash]

Do you remember? Immigrant Fucks a bunch. No. Oh, oh, American Revolutionary Fucks a bunch of British guys.

[Matt Koplik]

Sounds all right. Yep, sounds all right. But I don't know if you remember this when it. When it finally came out of Disney plus. Like, Gen Z had a really strong dislike of the show.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And of Lynn in particular. There became backlash to him of his, like, can do. Oh, golly gee whiz, theater kid mentality.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which I get. Sure. I get. I more get it now. It's again, I'm. I'm super pumped that he's still so passionate. The things Excite him so much that's out. It's really great that all the success has not diminished how exciting creating things can be for him. I love that for him. There is a little bit of an awareness one needs to have, though, about their status in the world, especially when you get. No. As you continue to rise. So, for example, like, when the Tick Tick Boom movie came out, he kept saying, like, can you believe they let us make this and, like, get away with this? And I went, you are Lin Manuel Miranda. You have the entertainment industry by the balls with Hamilton. And you.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And you wrote the songs from Moana. Oh, and also Encanto came out at the same time as Tic Tic Boom. Like, which no one knew how huge that was gonna be. But, like, you be like, you're now Disney's butt boy.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, Netflix was gonna let you do whatever the fuck you wanted.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. You're a cash cow.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. If you were like, I would like to turn all seven hours of Angels in America into 12 hours in German.

[Brian Nash]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

They would say, sure, go for it.

[Brian Nash]

Someone would fund that. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But, you know, I mean, like, that's just. That's where I think a lot of the Gen zers kind of have issues with him of, like, the, oh, my God, I'm just one of you guys. And emotionally, he may still feel that way, but they're like, you, dude, you have to look at your bank account and look at who's calling you up at, you know, 10:00am to get brunch.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Before you say, you're one of us.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then the backlash of the show when the Disney stuff came out, do.

[Brian Nash]

You remember what this was kind of.

[Matt Koplik]

It was a little, I think, a little silly, just because it was something that's like. It was a complaint more about history than it was about the show.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I guess the only way you could really describe it as a complaint of the show was, you know, characters who had owned slaves and a founding of an America that we are now recognizing is more complicated and messy than we once thought is brought up in such a positive, hopeful light in the show. And a lot of Gen Z were like, no, thank you for that viewpoint. Right. But you also have. This is where context comes in. Hamilton came out in the era of Obama. There was still another year and a half to go of his administration when it premiered at the Public.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It was written. The entire. The entirety of it was written during his two terms. There was a pride and a hopefulness a lot of Americans had, especially in the Entertainment industry of the country, of how far we had come. And then we had a major regression during Hamilton's time on Broadway. And so you now have to kind of view its viewpoint of the country through that lens, which, not to be disparaging, but is something that Gen Z kind of has a little trouble with, is taking historical context sometimes into works of art.

[Brian Nash]

Right. And the. The hope changiness of as, you know, that hope. Hopey changey thing as Sarah Palin. So. Yeah. Called it like she of Dancing with the Stars.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, was that her daughter?

[Brian Nash]

That was the daughter. That was gross. Oh, God.

[Matt Koplik]

Bristol.

[Brian Nash]

Thank God. Thank God I forgot her name. Yeah, yeah. Like, that moment was so. It permeated our entire culture. It was very much a kind of Camelot moment.

[Matt Koplik]

Nope.

[Brian Nash]

So, yeah, the fact that it is kind of a sunshiny thing. I mean, I do also remember there being some backlash about the fact, you know, the history that, you know, Hamilton wasn't that much of an abolitionist. No. And be like, yeah, we're kind of. We're kind of painting him with a brush. That's not at all true. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's one of those things where it's like, maybe for his time, he was maybe a little more bold and forward thinking than his contemporaries, but, like, not so much as he's portrayed in the show.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. No, no, no, no. Many. Oh, God. What is a many? What is it?

[Matt Koplik]

What are we talking about?

[Brian Nash]

A group of many. What is the lyric?

[Matt Koplik]

A group of many. Many.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Many, many.

[Brian Nash]

What song is Abolitionists? Give me a position. Show me where the ammunition is.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, give me a position. Show me where the ammunition.

[Brian Nash]

The line before which is so brilliant.

[Matt Koplik]

It's in my shot. Yes. Here we go. It's right for the. Oh, am I talking too loud? What are the odds the gods will put us all in one spot? Pop in a squat. Unconventional wisdom. Like it or not, a bunch of revolutionary manumission abolitionists. Yes.

[Brian Nash]

Give me an abolitionist.

[Matt Koplik]

Give me a position. Show me where the ammunition is. What is manumission?

[Brian Nash]

No idea.

[Matt Koplik]

I did not know that was a word.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It is manumission.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So you like the lyric? You don't know what that word means?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating wordplay.

[Matt Koplik]

It is. I mean, he's really great at wordplay. He has a hot take. Lin Manuel Miranda. Good at the words.

[Brian Nash]

Manumission refers to the legal release of enslaved people at a time when slavery is sanctioned by law as opposed to emancipation, which follows abolition and releases all people formerly enslaved. Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

Can I tell you what you know, speaking of emancipation, one of my favorite very racist jokes from the south park movie, and when I say racist, the joke is about racism. This joke itself is not racist. Is when Chef is in army training and they're going over the plan for when they attack Canada, and it's actually Operation Human Shield, and it's just all the black soldiers.

[Brian Nash]

Yep, yep.

[Matt Koplik]

And the sergeant says, any questions? Chef raises his hand. He goes, yes. And Chef goes, have you ever heard of the Emancipation Proclamation? And there's a beat. And the sergeant goes, I don't listen to hip hop.

[Brian Nash]

Yep. That movie is so good.

[Matt Koplik]

It's phenomenal. It is perhaps the second best movie musical of the 90s after the animated Beauty and the Beast.

[Brian Nash]

I cannot remember if it's. I. I don't know if it's apocryphal or not, but I do remember, like, hearing or reading when it was released that it was Sondheim's, like, favorite movie musical. He's like, it's the only one that works all the way through.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't remember that. He. I. I did read that he said it was the best musical of the 90s, including anything he had written.

[Brian Nash]

Ah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which maybe I'm mistaking that for what you said, but I. But yes, there is. There is a Sondheim connection to the south park movie, and he absolutely loved it and thought it was, like, one of the best of that decade.

[Brian Nash]

Makes me so happy. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. He doesn't love movie musicals because of the, you know, just super reality of film.

[Brian Nash]

And so, of course, before they filmed Sweeney Todd and Into the woods, so maybe his opinion changed.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, he does. He did. He did like the Sweeney Todd movie.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He. I don't think he liked the into the woods very much. I think he was kind to it.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because they gave him money.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And he liked everyone involved. I don't think he liked it very much, but he was very open about liking the Sweeney Todd movie. As am I. As am I. I understand it's not for everyone, but we have three different film versions of that score on stage.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

We don't need a movie version that is completely true to it. We just need a good movie.

[Brian Nash]

I liked by the Sea.

[Matt Koplik]

That was fun.

[Brian Nash]

That was a fun moment.

[Matt Koplik]

That I will say this is not a Sweeney Todd podcast, but we can bring it back to Hamilton. I've said it before. Of all the movie musicals the last, like, 25 years, that in Chicago have the best motors under them, where, like, it just keeps moving, and it's something that Is surprisingly difficult for a lot of modern filmmakers. So I have you. No matter what anyone thinks of that Sweeney Todd movie, they have to give credit to the fact that Tim Burton keeps that shit running and the music never stops, which is another brilliant choice of his.

[Brian Nash]

It's.

[Matt Koplik]

There's always underscoring bringing it back to Hamilton. Always back to Hamilton.

[Brian Nash]

But good luck. Good luck.

[Matt Koplik]

Just, you know, speaking of like motor keeping things moving. Right. Another complaint people had when it was off Broadway and was moving to Broadway was like, oh, how are they going to cut 15 minutes out of this show? The show was 2 hours and 45 minutes than intermission. Like, this is not Les Mis. They can't get away with this. Like how they. How are they going to cut it down?

[Brian Nash]

And I remember that and it was insane to me. Well, so shows can be 245.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

Well, so I think it was over three. Wasn't it like close to three or like over three?

[Matt Koplik]

It was close to three at the public and they got it down to about 245 for Broadway, which is, you know, they trimmed off 10 minutes. And some shows like really do need the 45 minute cuts. And some shows, it's just about finding the right 10 to make everything seem faster. Like Kimberly Akimbo. I think it's. They might have shaved off like six or seven minutes total.

[Brian Nash]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

But it just makes everything move. But with Hamilton, I remember that was a major complaint. And then I remember somebody wrote like, I think Hamilton is just one of Those shows that's 2 hours and 45 minutes.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like they don't need to make it shorter. And Tommy Kail said at one point he was like, when people complain about length, it's just that their attention wanders. It's not the actual number itself of minutes that they spend with the show. There are shows that are three hours that go by in a second. The original name is 3:15, actually. And then there are like 90 minute shows that go on forever. I just fucking saw Ohio State Murders with Goddess Divine Audra McDonald. It is 70 minutes long and you feel every second of it. Every second.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah, I need to. I'll go at some point on that note.

[Matt Koplik]

Let's take a break.

[Brian Nash]

Great, let's.

[Matt Koplik]

Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[Brian Nash]

How do you mean?

[Matt Koplik]

You're the top.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. You're an arrow collar.

[Matt Koplik]

You're the top.

[Brian Nash]

You're a Coolidge dollar.

[Matt Koplik]

You're the nymph. And we're back like before Ah won that wall.

[Brian Nash]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't even remember where we were, what we were talking about. I'll say this is the kind of episode I really like doing where we just kind of. We discuss so much of the show, but never in any kind of order. It's just like a real convo.

[Brian Nash]

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. This is why I like having friends on the podcast. Because. Yeah, I mean, no, none of them were available, so I called you. But I like having the friends on because my heart.

[Brian Nash]

It's fine.

[Matt Koplik]

You have no heart. How dare you. But, no, I just like having these conversations where it's just free flowing. Let's discuss for a second the eliza Hamilton Act 2 arc. Oh, yeah, we have the courtship, we got the marriage, they have the baby. Philip is bone at the top at the end of Act 1, Act 2. They have two kids at that point. And then I think they're getting a third soon. I don't know. Yeah, they end up having a bunch of kids. Right?

[Brian Nash]

Like eight. Yeah. They have like. I think they had like five. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It was that time where a bunch of them died. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was that time where you had a lot of kids. Hopes that half of them survive.

[Brian Nash]

You need some extras.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, absolutely. Help around the house and, you know, pull their weight.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. And, you know, hope they make it past four years old.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

And there was a lot of cholera going on.

[Matt Koplik]

Better than. The only thing worse than lipstick on the collar is lipstick on the cholera.

[Brian Nash]

Just ask Mary Lennox.

[Matt Koplik]

Whoops.

[Brian Nash]

Wow.

[Matt Koplik]

The girl, she does mean to be.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, poor thing.

[Matt Koplik]

She needs a place where she can go.

[Brian Nash]

I.

[Matt Koplik]

So I talk. I'm bringing this up because of sort of the one part where we get sort of an edge to Eliza, I suppose, which is the storyline where Hamilton cheats on her with Mariah Reynolds causing the first political American sex scandal.

[Brian Nash]

Yep. Good for you.

[Matt Koplik]

Good for you. Alexander Hamilton.

[Brian Nash]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

There's a million things you haven't done, but one of them is not Mariah Reynolds. Mariah Reynolds's vagina. And on your birthday. In the butt.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So, yeah, the. The song itself is interesting because, like, he does not. Lynn does not write. Any particular reason for Hamilton to cheat on his wife?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, basically, he's bored. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Nothing was wrong with their marriage.

[Brian Nash]

Working too hard. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Nothing was wrong with their marriage. He was not frustrated in any way. He was simply bored. He's all. And also, like, the show does not paint Hamilton as a saintly figure.

[Brian Nash]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

Smart as a fucker. And, and.

[Brian Nash]

But good, good. I'm glad they didn't.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, exactly. Like, like he's not the worst person, but he's annoying and he's egotistical. And part of the reason why he cheats is, you know, his own thinking of himself and the boredom of it all. And just in the weaker state, gives into a temptation that he shouldn't, only to then get blackmailed for it by the husband of the woman he screws. And rather than finish it off and walk away, he keeps going back.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And for reasons I can't totally comprehend, but then what happens is his enemies in Congress, in the Cabinet, I should say, discover payments he's making to John Reynolds. Is that the name of the man? Yeah, the John Reynolds. And like, what is this? Are you using government funds? Blah, blah, blah. And so he, rather than getting blackmailed by them, admits to them why it is that he is doing this. He's been paying John Reynolds for cheating on his wife. And once he's told them, he gets so paranoid that it's going to leak. He's like, I have to get ahead of the story. Which they usually tell you to do when you're a celebrity. Like it's PR101. Get ahead of the story.

[Brian Nash]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

If something bad's gonna come out, you come out with it first and get your sight out. Yeah, immediately. So he does that, but he does it without the consultation of his family. It's basically just does it. Prints it. Alexander Hamilton had an affair and he put it all down right there.

[Brian Nash]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

And then the great line, that is so not true anymore. Never gonna be president now. Because the idea that you could have.

[Brian Nash]

That kind of scandal and become president was unthinkable. Yeah. I mean, Gary Hart, whole presidential, you know, ambitions. He was going to be the nominee and just reveal that he was having an affair on a yacht called Monkey Business.

[Matt Koplik]

He's the one who said, like. He's the one who's like, follow me.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You won't see anything. And then they did and they found it.

[Brian Nash]

Exactly. I'm like, well, honey, like, know thyself. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

To thine own self be.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Blue.

[Brian Nash]

But that's the thing. I mean, I think part of it is like, he. And you see this with. With, you know, certain people, like, they're just so high on their own supply that they think they're infallible. Yeah. Like, he absolutely didn't feel justified in having the affair, but it's like, well, why not?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, why not?

[Brian Nash]

Why not? So does gets for it. And then is so convincing his rightness still that, you know, it brings him down entirely.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, and the reasoning that he does it with such confidence. It's the song Hurricane, Right?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is.

[Brian Nash]

Right. I'll write my way out. My. Basically, my words can solve anything. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because he's like, I've. He's like, I've yet to die. Like, all these times I could have been sunk, and I haven't. What's gonna make this any different? I'm gonna. I'm gonna fight this, and I'm gonna come out the other end.

[Brian Nash]

But those times, it was all about him. And it didn't. That. The fact that. The fact that the character is not thinking of, you know, that Eliza hasn't had to. Hasn't had those struggles and survived them. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is when the Reynolds pamphlet comes out and Angelica comes back from London for probably the first time in a few years at this point.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And there used to be a song in this moment called Congratulations, which they cut and just made it. The, like, two lines she has, which. It's one of those moments where I'm like, you know, economy makes it even better.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Because the I'm not here for you lyric is just like. Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He comes to grab her hand, and she takes it away. I'm not here for you. And everyone does that.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then she does the satisfied reprise that it justifies her choice in the matter in act one of why she gave. Also, like, ultimately, why she gave Hamilton to her sister has nothing to do with her own feelings for Hamilton or any doubts she had about him. It ultimately was that her sister matters more to her than anything. And him cheating on Eliza pisses her off so much in the sense that less of like, a. Like, it could have been me. And you gave that right. And rather, like, do you know what I gave up to give my sister the happiness she deserves? And you went and it up, you piece of.

[Brian Nash]

No one gets what they want.

[Matt Koplik]

Nope. And which leads us to Eliza's song Burn, Burn, Burn.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, okay. So, gentle, sidebar. I work with Christina Bianco a bunch. If you don't know Christina Bianco, she's a vocal impressionist and a goddamn genius. Yeah, she is. We did not long after Hamilton came out a Broadway diva. Hamilton, which was, you know, one of the now traditional things for impressionists, where you basically do a bunch of people either doing a song or whatever. We did Hamilton with, I think, nine different women. The Schuyler sisters were Patty, Idina, and Kristen. Ha. And she did all of them. Like.

[Matt Koplik]

It was perfect.

[Brian Nash]

It was brilliant. And we've done that moment a couple times elsewhere but we did like a 12 minute segment that was a lot of the show. And some of them were just so niche that I'm like. She's like, I can only do it in New York because no one else knows what a Susan Egan impression sounds like, which she does perfectly.

[Matt Koplik]

Perfectly saying that that's New York niche. Yeah, girl, that is this room niche.

[Brian Nash]

Exactly. Like, it's. It's a lot. But it was Alice Ripley singing Burn, which was switching it need future historians. But I hope that you was. So I fell out every time. I'm like, three people get this, but I don't give a fuck. It's so good.

[Matt Koplik]

I have one line from next to normal that I can do an Alice Ripley impression for, which is the. Didn't they see this movie? And didn't I cray?

[Brian Nash]

Didn't they cray?

[Matt Koplik]

Because when she would do those I vowels, it.

[Brian Nash]

The tongue.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because there's also. There's like golden age Alice Ripley. And then there's. The gift is gone. Alice, where all the vowels are up now just to get the notes out.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. It's all kind of Swedish.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, But. But I also. I mean, I. I try to do golden age Alice, just the vowel placements, and I. I can't totally.

[Brian Nash]

But.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, you try.

[Brian Nash]

It's. It's just every time I'm sad, I just watch Meadowlark.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. Well, that's when the gift was starting to leave.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But I mean, listen, baby, she wants hers. Where was hers?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Brian and I are at odds about Sideshow, but it did play the Richard Rogers Theater where Hamilton.

[Brian Nash]

Hamilton. See?

[Matt Koplik]

And we're back.

[Brian Nash]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

Philippa was singing Burn. And all I could think of was lost in the darkness. Boat I am floating and feels like it's flying through space. It's. It's a beautiful song. Burn.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, it's great. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's. There are moments in shows when it's really effective for me, when the entire stage is just totally cluttered and then makes way for a single individual when.

[Brian Nash]

She starts walking forward through the pamphlets. It's just. Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

And they just ends with his poor wife and then goes right into the song. It's like there are certain people who just get how musicals flow. Even, like the. And we were talking about this with the movie musical shit. But, like, the critical analysis of the structure aside, characters aside, like, all that bullshit aside, which is all very important to tell, like, a good story, but just the very nature of, like, physically, chemically knowing when it's time to bring the volume down and when you got to bring it up and when things can. When you are allowed to slow things down for a second. Lin Manuel Miranda is one of those people who just like, inherently gets when the next moment has to come as it is. I've often said, like, if there's one thing I'll give Angelo Robert credit for as a composer is that he absolutely knows, like, chemically speaking, what the next sound should be. Even if, dramatically speaking, it doesn't always make sense. Like that transition from angel of Music into Phantom of the Opera.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Dramatically speaking, I'm like, how are these two songs in the same score? It's so. They're so diametrically opposed. But I can't not hear Christine Angel. Clap, clap. And for a song also, that dramatically has no purpose.

[Brian Nash]

It's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a statement song where Christine is in a trance. So how the fuck does she know that the Phantom's the one that's kidnapped her?

[Brian Nash]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

She doesn't know that the Phantom's even real. As far as she's aware, she's with the angel of Music. Dramatically makes no sense. Everything in Hamilton dramatically makes sense.

[Brian Nash]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Philippa as Eliza. I remember seeing this at the public and thinking it was a really gorgeous song. I was very concerned for her with the flames. But then when you're in a 1400 seat theater and you're no longer five feet away from Philip Zoo, you just enjoy the song.

[Brian Nash]

Yep, yep, yep. Not scared of her setting you on fire.

[Matt Koplik]

Not one bit. And it's. What I like about it is it's one of those songs where through the specificity of the circumstance, you can feel the universal emotion that we all can relate to, which is somebody who.

[Brian Nash]

Is.

[Matt Koplik]

So betrayed by someone they love, and all of a sudden the things that they loved about that person become like, the things that turn them against it. Like they all. Have you ever had something happen to you, Brian, where you look back at everything and. And you just go, huh? I used to look at it this way. Now I'm kind of looking at him this other way, and it's not so cute anymore. Yes, Yes. I figured you've lived life.

[Brian Nash]

I have.

[Matt Koplik]

And maybe some of my listeners have as well.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But there.

[Brian Nash]

Have you. Have you experienced that?

[Matt Koplik]

Everyone, listen to the Torch Song trilogy episode. If you want more information on that. I don't give details, but when mom and I discuss Bub, that is what we are discussing. But there are things that sometimes happen with. With life where, whether it's a person or a Thing. And whether it's love or trust, what have you, sometimes a switch goes off and all the things that brought you joy about it, that brought you happiness, you look back in a totally different lens and all just becomes nasty. And for Eliza, it is Alexander's writing. She looks at the letters that he wrote her when they were courting and, like, the beauty with which he wrote to her. And it was one of the things that really made her fall for him. And his writing is ultimately what has undone their union because of the pamphlet. And she's now viewing it no longer as this beautiful thing, but as this selfish thing is how he is showing off, how he is paranoid, how he is just conceited. And in turn, for the first time, it turns her off of him and what he's best at. And it's sort of that thing where it's like, well, you think at the time. And she thinks at the time, like, there's no coming back from this. If I can't find even beauty in your writing anymore, there's no hope for us.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is why she burned. She. She talks about the burning yearning, then she literally burns the letters. And then she metaphorically is telling Hamilton, I hope that you burn. I hope they disintegrate you into pieces.

[Brian Nash]

Mm.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's at that moment when Philippa Soo, Tony nominee Philippa Soo, pissed all over the stage, turned to the audience and said, eat it.

[Brian Nash]

I hope that you burn is incredible.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a great last line.

[Brian Nash]

Go fuck yourself. Yep. Yep. And go to literal. Hell. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It is so cutting and means so.

[Brian Nash]

Much, especially coming from her because she's been such a sweet dumpling the whole time.

[Matt Koplik]

The sweetest and lightest of dumplings. So for her to get to go that hard.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You're like, oh, she means it.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yep. There is. There is no coming back. Which is why just the hand grab and fog.

[Matt Koplik]

If this.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Is so devastating. Yeah. Also randomly backtracking. I don't know why in end of Act 1, what's the name of the damn song?

[Matt Koplik]

End of acting. Oh, non stop.

[Brian Nash]

Non stop. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why every time the narration happens about the Federalist Papers and he gets to. Hamilton wrote the other 51, I start crying and I don't know why.

[Matt Koplik]

Hamilton wrote the other 51.

[Brian Nash]

Like. And I just, like, right now talking about it. I am so starting to tear up. I don't know why.

[Matt Koplik]

It's just chemical.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Part of it is also how it builds.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Musically, it gets to that moment there's sometimes that it just happens in shows where it's like, for no particular reason. It's like it gives you the kind of chills where you can't explain it.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I mentioned this in my Kimberly review as well. Like, the best kind of musicals, when they really work, they give you a sense of jubilation and catharsis, but then also non stop questions and answers where you keep asking yourself, like, why did I feel this way? I know I felt this way, but why did I feel this way at this moment? Like, it's just so much to talk about and not many musicals do it. Definitely not that many musicals these days.

[Brian Nash]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

Hamilton definitely brings that into the play and is probably the most. It's so crazy to say commercial because I remember at the time when it came out.

[Brian Nash]

Sounds insane.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Some of the best musicals, when you write them on paper, like one sentence, like what you're pitching it, you're like, the fuck are you talking about? A rock musical about Jesus Christ, his last few days. Oh, and by the way, he comes across as a jaded millennial.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

What? And Judas is weirdly not that bad.

[Brian Nash]

Dancers are talking about dancing.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Some ginger orphan gets adopted by a 1 percenter.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Well, hey. Yeah. Nice work if you can get it.

[Matt Koplik]

The plan was to write a total.

[Brian Nash]

Of 25 essays, the work divided evenly.

[Matt Koplik]

Among the three men.

[Brian Nash]

In the end, they wrote 85 essays in the span of six months. John Jay got sick after writing five. James Madison wrote 29. Hamilton wrote the other 51. How do you write like you're running out of time?

[Matt Koplik]

What are other moments in the show that give you chills?

[Brian Nash]

I think there is like, that absolute. Because. Because of how built up it is. Like his first entrance. What's your name, man? Alexander Hamilton stops the show called Like Totes. Yeah. Especially when it's Lyn doing it. Yeah. Forgiveness kills me. There's. What's the other. There are.

[Matt Koplik]

There like.

[Brian Nash]

There are a couple other, like, chills. Moments. Room where it happens. Yeah. As it continues to build. Yeah. After the. I want to be in the room. Like that slow build. As it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. It just destroys me. It's so fucking good. Yeah. What are your chills? Moments.

[Matt Koplik]

Quite a few. I. So I really. I do love it when a musical takes me by surprise and Hamilton and Book of Mormon actually take me by surprise in the scene same part of their act one finale.

[Brian Nash]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is when I'll never. I will never forget watching Book of Mormon in standing room right after Won the Tony.

[Brian Nash]

And then.

[Matt Koplik]

Same thing with Hamilton in the public. When they got to the point in the Act 1 finale where I went, is this a mashup? When they start bringing songs back in so when man up is happening and then all of a sudden, Nicki M. James comes in and goes, saw the Lake City. I started to cry because I. I knew what they were doing. I was like, we're about to get all of act one in the next 90 seconds. And it's. And, like, it's took me a surprise. It fits so well. And then Hamilton was the same thing. Not a cry situation, but when he started to do the look around. Look around. And then. Helpless. He will never be satisfied. Sad. History has its eye and it all just combines y. And I was like Renee and Philippa blending together, like, up to. Up to the shoulder for me, you know, And. But. And then goes into not throwing away my shot. And I was like, well, we just have an absolutely stellar act one finale here. It's. It is the mold. It is the house that Les Mis built.

[Brian Nash]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

It is the house that Book of Mormon furnished.

[Brian Nash]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

And it is the house that Hamilton flipped.

[Brian Nash]

Yep. How dare.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I'm trying to think of, like, act one finales that did that before Les Mis. I'm sure there's got to be something.

[Brian Nash]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Where you, like. Where you blend in a couple of songs together from the show or, like. Or at least melodies from the show. I know Les Mis is, like, the. Is the most famous example, but maybe before Les Mis, it wasn't as common to have multiple. Maybe, like, two.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm like. Just because we've been talking about it, you know, Phantom just that last. You know, I gave you my music, so, you know, you're getting an. I'll ask you your place, and then you will cover the day you did not do. So you're getting, like, a music of the night, and then you get the. The. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a bunch of stuff that kind of does similar things, but not that incredibly mashuppy. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Those are the three that I really can think of where they found. They take melodies from the first act.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And blended.

[Brian Nash]

Pile them all on top of each other.

[Matt Koplik]

The difference between Les Mis and Book of Mormon and Hamilton is that they're using the actual songs and they're using the actual lyrics to come back, like.

[Brian Nash]

To really reprise them instead of, like, these are the leitmotifs of these.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. As opposed to Les Mis, which is like. Well, we're Taking who am I? I dream to dream. Master of the house and Javert's theme. And blending it all together.

[Brian Nash]

Yep, yep, yep, yep. Ooh, another one. I don't know why this also makes me cry. The. The farewell address.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, one last time.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah. Like, as. As Hamilton is speaking it and Washington starts singing it and Chris is kind of like. Starts to layer in his insane vocal gifts, which you never think of with Chris Jackson. But, like, he starts singing his ass off all of a sudden. Yeah, it's so. It comes out of the speech so beautifully.

[Matt Koplik]

There was a staging moment at the public that they cut for Broadway and it annoyed me. So King George is like. Is maybe the best Princess track Broadway has had since Fantine.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, God, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Since Fantine.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And the original name is when she only came back as a bullet boy.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Sally Murphy also, by the way, has a great Princess track in Downstate Bookends that show like nobody's business. But no, has his. Has his first two you'll be backs. His main one. And then the reprise after Battle of Yorktown.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then in Act 2, when Washington decides, you know, he's going to be done. And King George does his reprise of who's coming next. John Adams.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

The way that it was staged at the public was Chris Jackson went up the stairs. That was like one stairs in the center of the turntable makes his final pose. And when he was over, the turntable turned and behind the staircase was King George sitting down. And he was like, what?

[Brian Nash]

What?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it was so cute. And it was a nice, like, little surprising reveal because it had been a minute since we last saw him, so we weren't really expecting it. And then on Broadway, they cut it and had him just enter the stage. And I thought it was less fun. And I'm not sure why they did it unless it was just about getting this. The staircase off more quickly.

[Brian Nash]

That's interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

I did get sent a bootleg of the you'll be back reprise from the day after Liz Truss resigned. Ah. They're just gonna keep changing whoever's in charge. Then who's next? And the audience from the London production. And the audience loses their mind. Oh, fucking screaming with laughter.

[Matt Koplik]

I love that.

[Brian Nash]

Like. Yep, pretty much.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, pretty much. I love it when audiences have those kind of reactions.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Have you.

[Matt Koplik]

You've listened to the soundboard of opening night of Evita. Yes, we've talked about this.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

There are. There are conflicting reports as to why the audience goes so ballistic when Patty growls so Lauren Bacall Me.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Some say it's because Bacall was in the audience. Some say, no, it's because Patty was just that good. And some go, no, we had just never seen such a raging cunt in a musical before and we were living for it.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, she. So I just like those reports, though. But you. When you listen to that soundboard and when she says, so, Lauren, but call me. 1800 people lose their shit.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. And it does feel kind of like that moment. And I'm telling you after. No, I will. And I am telling you I'm. And the audience just can't hold it back anymore. They've just been like, the entire time. Yeah. It's just like it. We are losing our minds.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. Same on that last. And you and you, like, they. They lose it just won't stop cheering.

[Brian Nash]

You can't stop. You cannot physically stop.

[Matt Koplik]

You'll be back like before.

[Brian Nash]

I will fight the fight and win.

[Matt Koplik]

The war for your love for your praise and I love you till my.

[Brian Nash]

Dying days when you're gone I'll go mad.

[Matt Koplik]

I was wondering, like, any songs we haven't. We haven't really talked about. You'll Be Back, which is the only song you and I could do if we were cast in Hamilton.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah. You'll be back. Brilliant. In that. Like, it took me a minute to get the. When you're gone I'll go mad. Yep. I'm like, oh, that's good. Yeah. Again, that's another, like, pat yourself on the back moment.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[Brian Nash]

Like, get his impending schizophrenia in there.

[Matt Koplik]

And if you.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because if you read Hamilton's Revolution, you know, whenever we get to the lyrics, Lynn has these footnotes and on the. When you're gone I'll go mad. And his footnote for that is. And he did.

[Brian Nash]

Yep. Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

They wrote a play about it, the Madness of George iii, which was made into the movie the Madness of King George.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember coaching that song relatively soon after the show came out. I'm like, can you just play the entire thing like it's the start of a schizophrenic break? Just kind of like. Because I think it is played normally, like, a little too straight. I think the. Everybody should be threatening as fuck.

[Matt Koplik]

I think the best. King George's should watch a couple of clips of Christian Bale in American Psycho.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And not even when he's fully raging in the scenes where he's trying to conceal the fact that he wants to murder.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Brian's Ryan, R.C. james's King George. I don't recall it being that threatening. It was more that he was just so stuffy.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So again, that's funny. Yeah. Again, it was the contrast of just like you'd ever be like, it's the hip show, man. It's Hamilton, man. And then you had Brian Darcy James.

[Brian Nash]

Being like, King George, hello, fellow kids.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, how do you do, fellow kids? Well, are you. Were you a 30 Rock boy?

[Brian Nash]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. I don't know.

[Brian Nash]

I'm terrible.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I. First of all, I don't know whoever watches anything anymore, like, what. What are anyone's shows? But they did like a joke of one of Tracy Morgan's movies was like a big Mama's house kind of thing. And they had a character based off of Alec Baldwin, who in the movie, who's like, very stodgy old man that the actual Alec Baldwin plays in the, like, clips that you see. But he's like wearing a bald cap and he's like powdered white and he's like, I'm gonna shut down your house and close all the orphanages in America. Like that. And it was very. It was a very. And while Tracy Morgan's like, how dare you? You so evil. And I'm gonna stop you with my boobies. And it felt. With Brian Darcy James, it was a little bit of that where like, Renee Elise Goldsberry is like, I'm gonna rap. And, you know, Javier and Chris are singing their asses off, like, in a poppy way. And Leslie Adam Jr. Is like, I'm in one with the earth. And. And then you just. Brian Darcy James, who was like, music was like acting.

[Brian Nash]

Musical theater. Yes. Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

How now Dow Jones. And that was funny. Jonathan played in much more psychotic, which I thought was good because his voice blended in so well with everybody else's. At the very least we had. His acting were like, he.

[Brian Nash]

You. He's like, I'm fucking nuts.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. He's like, I'm not moving, but just know my entire. All my skin is vibrating right now.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Also, I do love the cameo in Reynolds Pamphlet.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. When he's dancing up storm.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's fun. It's fun. It's a good. It's a good role for a gay.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And the wig. Although I mean, that. That opening outfits gotta be. Fucking hell.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, exactly. I mean, the fact that, you know, you're walking on stage, you're singing for three minutes and you're not moving and you are sweating that hard. Jesus.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, yeah. Jonathan Groff, who could sweat in a bathing Suit in Antarctica. Just like to wear.

[Brian Nash]

And I would watch it. Sure. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

We love us. We love a sexy otter.

[Brian Nash]

But he's not an otter.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, maybe not anymore. Well, not a seal.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like serialist.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah. Otter vibes. But hairless.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I guess otters are technically skinny but have hair, right?

[Brian Nash]

Yes, yes. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Seals are hairless. Slightly thicker than a. Than a twink.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So he's a seal. I think they discussed this on looking.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, yeah, probably.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Of what his.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

What is. Of what his tribe is.

[Brian Nash]

Oh.

[Matt Koplik]

But, yeah, it's. It's. It's such a heavy costume. For sure. And I remember he was on. I think it was Colbert back when, you know, the show was just so huge that all everyone in the cast got to do interviews. Philippa sue got to go on Colbert. And I think, like. I think Jasmine went on, like, the View or something. It was crazy.

[Brian Nash]

Emmy award winner Jasmine Sepis Jones thought she just won an Emmy four. Whatever. She was on some random ass show that was on, like, Quibi or something. It was like the only thing that ever happened on Quibi.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, my God.

[Brian Nash]

I know.

[Matt Koplik]

How dare you get an Emmy for Quibi?

[Brian Nash]

But I could be making this up. I think it was Quibby.

[Matt Koplik]

I remember J. Groff talked about how he based his walk off of Beyonce.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then I think she came to see the show and he told her, oh, I based your walk off. Your walk off of this or my walk off of you. And she's like, oh, yeah, I see it.

[Brian Nash]

Yep. She won a Primetime Emmy for Free Rashawn.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, who hasn't won a Primetime Emmy?

[Brian Nash]

Yep. Yep. Good for her. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Guys, that was a joke. Primetime Emmys are the big ones. Those are the ones you actually do want.

[Brian Nash]

Exactly. Yeah. You don't want a creative Arts Emmy. No, you don't.

[Matt Koplik]

Is that a Daytime Emmy? So it still counts. Girl, gotta eat.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. P.S. mariah Carey is now investing in Something Like It Hot because she wants an egot.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, she's gonna have to try again.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I haven't seen it yet, but by all. But I have absolutely zero beliefs that that show will win the Tony for best musical. Nominated. Not win.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, definitely nominated. It's. It's delightful. I mean, it's really wonderful. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But you have to ask yourself, like, is it gonna win?

[Brian Nash]

That's the thing. Is it gonna beat Kimberly? Or do they, like. Does Kimberly get, like, book and score? Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Is it a year down?

[Brian Nash]

Year? Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I think everyone keeps talking like, well, will Kimberly last through June. And yes, there is absolutely no way that that production team, those producers. Not with David. It's David Stone. Right. There's no way that they put this show up thinking it was going to be a hit out the gate. They knew that this had to be word of mouth, that it was going to be an uphill battle. And it's so far been paying off. They started small, and every week the grosses have gotten better. They had their best grossing week since we've recorded this. You could not buy better reviews. They just have to keep New York audiences engaged through the winter. And I think they can.

[Brian Nash]

It's.

[Matt Koplik]

There's. There's going to be no better musical than Kimberly this year. I've seen most of them. I still need to see something like It Hot in a week. And K Pop, I highly doubt K pop's going to change my mind. And I would buy you a house if you were to convince me that Beautiful Noise would change my mind. Oh, that that would be better than Kimbo?

[Brian Nash]

That it's gonna be better than Kimberly Akimbo. Yeah. I'm homeless then.

[Matt Koplik]

You are absolutely homeless. Homeless. Homeless. I need a roof. Yeah. Trying to think what else we can talk about. Well, so, I mean, we didn't. I never really went fully into, like, I guess, like. Like the rest of the gestation of my nose. It doesn't matter all that much. So much this can be found. I talked about the American Songbook. I talked about how they did that reading with the script. They did another reading of the entire.

[Brian Nash]

I would wonder what it would be with, like, a Paul Rudnick book.

[Matt Koplik]

I want to know who that playwright was. Who they.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's. Part of me thinks, like, it would have been like, a Terence McNally or something, because of the ragtime of it all.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Could be.

[Matt Koplik]

And it was. It was like 2012, 2013. So he was still very much writing.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Huh? Yeah. We need to figure out who the hell this was. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Let's ask around. Listeners call in. Do you know who the playwright was that got fired from Hamilton? Because Lin Manuel Miranda said, I'm going to have all the credit.

[Brian Nash]

Yep. Yep. All the cash.

[Matt Koplik]

That's exactly what happened. People also talk about, like, you know, sometimes it's not about how quickly you write something. It took Lynn seven years to write Hamilton. I'm like, it took Lynn seven years on and off to write Hamilton.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. He was doing other things. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He, like. He spent the first year writing two songs and then, like, basically stopped for a year, got back to Writing stops because he was. Yeah, he was in house. He did Merrily We Roll Along. He contributed to the Bring it on score. Like he was doing. He did the Spanish. He was busy. He was doing a lot of stuff. So it was like. It was something that was on the back burner for about three years.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And he had written enough material by that point to do concerts, but then it was the next three years where he actually, like, wrote the damn show.

[Brian Nash]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And they had about a year and a half between their last reading slash workshop and performing at the Public that January of 2015. And that was when Lynn wrote like, basically the majority of Act 2.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And apparently they staged it. They basically had to stage the entire show at the public without any idea if the turntables would work.

[Brian Nash]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Because usually when you have a show with a turntable, especially now, they incorporate it into the rehearsal room.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. You're staging it in the space.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. They'll like create a rehearsal deck for you so you can work with the automation of that. Because it's. First of all, it's a safety concern. But also you want to make sure that you're staging works. It actually will save you time in tech.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And basically because at the public, it's off Broadway, you don't have that much tech time and they don't have the money to put you in a rehearsal room at the turntable. They're like. They're in like Luster hall or whatever.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They had like a couple of days to do the turntable and just pray that it worked.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And of course, you know, in the book, they're like. And wouldn't you know, it all worked. And I was brilliant and all beautiful. One of the only major things they cut scenic wise with the show was the koi pond at the end of the show.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They had like one performance where the center part of the turntable slid open and there was a little pond inside.

[Brian Nash]

And that's where the gas came from because, you know, she would jump into the koi pond. It's like it was cold. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, the gasp. I thought you said the gasp.

[Brian Nash]

The gasp. No. Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And suddenly he wasn't racist anymore.

[Brian Nash]

We never. We got distracted. We didn't talk about the royalty thing, which I think is fascinating.

[Matt Koplik]

It is very fascinating. So when Hamilton opened about. On Broadway, about three weeks into the run, I want to say it was still August when this got broached, it was October. When it kind of came to a head, the company of Hamilton came together and said very Bluntly, we love this show. We're grateful to be a part of it, but we are a part of it and we helped make this show and we think we should be compensated for our contributions. Which brought up a debate in the theater community of what exactly it is that actors contribute to the process of creating a show, in a workshop and then in rehearsals for the final production. Would you like to take the torch for the next stage of this?

[Brian Nash]

Well, basically, they saw how much money was going to be made off of, you know, contributions they made and they're like, give us.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, money, please.

[Brian Nash]

We like money. We also would like to not, you know, do this show for the rest of our lives and, you know, basically not see anything other than for it, other than the time that we're physically on stage. So I. I don't. Did the terms ever get released?

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Brian Nash]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

The. So it started, I believe, with 22 members of the Broadway company.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They did not originally include Jonathan Groff, and I think there was one other actor I didn't include. And it didn't include any of the original crew members that came with the show from the public to Broadway.

[Brian Nash]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Eventually it did. It went from 22 to 31.

[Brian Nash]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

And it was that they collectively shared 1% of the net profit. Ah, the net profit. For those of you who don't, there's net and there's gross. Gross is what. And, you know, if you follow Broadway grosses, let's say, you know, you see how much money a show has taken in that week. That is not how much money the show made. So when people are like, oh, look at that. Wicked made $1.7 million this week.

[Brian Nash]

It's like, no, no, no, no.

[Matt Koplik]

That's how much they grossed. Wicked made $800,000 this week because they have a high running cost. And high running people also have a really shitty concept of what makes something have a lower high running cost. They go, oh, it's got one set and four actors. I'm like, yes, but there were 12 writers.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Something that I talk about all the time with Moulin Rouge. Like why that show has an over million dollar running cost is all the royalties they owe to all the songwriters and artists. Same thing with and Juliet, which no one really realizes that. Yes, it is the Max Martin catalog. He had a dozen or so lyric writers, producers, the artists who covered the damn thing. Unfortunately, one of them of the collaborators is Dr. Luke. So by seeing the show, you are contributing to his bank account. Just letting you know, I did see the show for free. So I did not do that. But just letting you know, for a show that's all about female power, not the best person to put money in the pocket of just saying everybody. So with this, the cast got 1% of the net profit. So that is the money made after the running cost. So when Hamilton was grossing like $1.9 million in the show was cost 3.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, there were, there were weeks where it broke 3 million.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, that came later. Yeah, the first like six months from. Not even that. Like the first four months, let's say like from. From August through November.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

We're like bumping up close to 2.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Then we get to New Year's and we're definitely hitting the 2. And then I think for the rest of 2016 it was like very comfortably over the 2 million dollar mark. And then a handful of times after that was like just very much above 3. And we can talk about that as well with the, with the premium pricing, because we haven't even talked about ham for ham.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because that's all, that's all interconnected and part of me going, bullshit. But the cast would get collectively 1% of that net profit, whatever that net profit was, which is important. And then they would get a slightly lower percentage of any future American productions, not including revivals on Broadway or across the country. So basically any national or sit down production replicating the Broadway production, I don't think that included West End or Australia. Many terms are different. I have friends who've been in Broadway shows that were in workshops that went to Broadway. And like for example with Frozen, I believe it was no one in the Broadway company of Frozen alone got a percentage point. You had to have done at least the workshop as well.

[Brian Nash]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And how much you got was determined if you, if you did the workshop and Broadway, if you did the reading, the workshop and Broadway. And so. And then after that it was, it was Broadway and the first three English lang. English speaking productions of Frozen. Okay, so that could be national tour. Sit down. West End.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But then after that you're done. So like Japan. Sorry about it. Germany. Sorry about it.

[Brian Nash]

And once Broadway closed.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, exactly. But it is still playing in so.

[Brian Nash]

Running in West End.

[Matt Koplik]

And the national tour, I think is still going. No, it is still going.

[Brian Nash]

I know that.

[Matt Koplik]

I actually know that for a fact. I, I know that for the fact. But yeah, that is what those, what the terms were for Hamilton. And it's interesting to connect it to Chorus Line because the Chorus Line actors did not get as good a deal.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. And those were Their actual stories.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. I would argue that the company of A Chorus Line actually made that show. Right. But the conversation then goes to what it is that, you know, actors bring to a piece by interpreting it, by offering their own creative input. And, you know, we tell stories like, oh, Schuyler sisters was different. And then Lynn heard the three actresses warming up and that inspired him to write this. And, you know, they did not. Philip Asu, Renee Elise Goldsberry and Jasmine.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Did not write the riffs. And Skyler sisters, they did not tell Lynn, we can do this, put it in the show. But the very fact that they could like that is something that would not exist if it weren't for them.

[Brian Nash]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Just their abilities and what they brought to the process. Sometimes a line delivery changes how a whole scene plays out, and. Or sometimes a simple note from an actor can do whatever. I'm currently listening to the Office Ladies podcast. I don't know if you're familiar with it. No, it's Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey from the Office. Okay. As they're doing a deep dive rewatch of the whole thing. And they always talk about with the writing process of the show. Greg Daniels, who created it, his motto was like, best idea wins, and it doesn't matter who it comes from. And on that show, there was no ego about who it came from. And no one wanted monetary credit. It was just about everyone loved doing the show and wanted it to be the best thing. And everyone felt heard, so everyone just said, whatever. And now with Hamilton, while actors are getting more compensation for things that they were maybe being taken for granted for earlier, now so much of the artistic process has come down to, well, where's my compensation?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so it's less about trying to create something special and something good and more about, well, if I'm going to move that chair, I need compensation. If I'm going to talk to you about my character, I need compensation. And it's like, yes, your time is valuable as an artist and you want to. You don't want to be taken advantage of. But also, if the best idea wins, what does it matter if you're not being compensated for your riff? If stagehand number four came up with a better idea.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. You know. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. I mean, I wonder what that. If that is going to change how a lot of how rehearsal rooms work, especially in workshops. But yeah, I mean, part of it is if there's that much money being made. Yeah. You know.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, and originally the production tried to pay them all a Lump sum.

[Brian Nash]

Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

And, you know, the lump sum was anywhere between, like, 30 and 90 million. $90,000.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is. Seems like a lot of money.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it is, but. And there are articles all about this, and it leaks out a lot of the emails that the cast was exchanging. And, you know, Lynn basically had to stay out of it.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, definitely supported his company, but also was one of those times where he had to recognize he was part of production. He was who they were not fighting against, but, like, imploring to.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. And it would be coming out of his. Out of his money.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And there was so much money being made off of Hamilton that it was like, at some point, it's like, how much is enough for you before you can start spreading the wealth with the people who help make this happen?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, do you really need 300k that week from just the Broadway production alone?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is something I'm sure he could have made, because the amount of money that show was grossing was stupid.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Still is stupid, in my opinion.

[Brian Nash]

I mean, if Lin had just, like, the typical 6% author royalty, then he's making an insane amount of money.

[Matt Koplik]

The. The original company of Hamilton was making when. When the. When they settled the royalty, the 1%, they each were making about 1900 a week extra just from that collective 1% in the first year of the Broadway run.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Before the show was grossing an average of like 2.8 to 3.5 million. Like, it was still, like, the 1.7 range. And there was no national tour, and there was no Chicago. Sit down.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So now they're all probably making still, like, a solid 5k a week, and they're not in the show anymore. That's like. That is some people's, you know, three months of rent money in a week.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah. And they're literally watching Netflix while it happened.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Yeah. We're so. What a brave soul Leslie. Leslie Odom Jr. Is for pioneering this. As he gets his Apple TV, Central park money.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

As he gets his Murder on the Orient Express money.

[Brian Nash]

No, it's not that much money. I mean, it's fine. He's doing fine.

[Matt Koplik]

He's doing just fine.

[Brian Nash]

I'm not concerned for Leslie Odom Jr's pocketbook.

[Matt Koplik]

Nor am I. I mean, Smash really set him on the. On the right course, don't you think?

[Brian Nash]

I mean, it set all of them on the right course, except for Katherine McPhee, who lives, who dies, who tells your story. Every other founding father story gets told.

[Matt Koplik]

Every other founding father gets to grow Old and when you're gone who remembers your name? Who keeps your flame?

[Brian Nash]

Who tells your story?

[Matt Koplik]

Final songs. We want to discuss moments of. Want to discuss Hamilton discuss. We talked about the royalties. We talked about Disney plus. Oh, hamper. Ham, quick. Hamper.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So lottery's obviously been a thing. Russia has been a thing for a long time. Hamilton first show and probably at this point, only show to do performances for the Lottery. Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

Cast performances. Yeah. And also Patti LuPone. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Well. Well, so it'd be. That's the thing is it became this whole thing. So it started with in earnest of Lynn claiming that he felt bad that everybody. Everybody who would show up for the lottery wouldn't get to see the show. So it's like, well, what if we give them a little piece of the show? So I believe it started with, like, moments from Hamilton.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, songs that were cut and they. There's a great one where they do. Where they do the whole 10 dual commandments with the stage manager calling all the cues.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, I didn't see that one.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Because it's. Apparently that is the song that has the most cues of any song in the show. So it's. You hear him doing all the cues while they're doing it. Acapella on the sidewalk.

[Brian Nash]

That's amazing.

[Matt Koplik]

It's so amazing. And it, like, the thing fucking lit up like a spark plug or whatever. I don't know what the things are. But it drew, like, huge amount of crowds to the point where, like, they had to. They started, like, having to shut down 46 because there was, like, thousands of people entering and also wanting to see what the next Han for Ham was. Because then it also grew into. Not just cast, because then it was. First it was pieces from the show, then it was cast members doing other songs in general. And then it became Patti LuPone's gonna sing Give My Regards to Broadway. Kelli O' Hara is gonna sing in. Is gonna sing in Aria. The sisters from Fiddler are gonna sing a Lin Manuel Miranda parody to Matchmaker. And it became sort of like, well, who's here tonight?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it got so bad that they had to then put it online. They would. They would sometimes do performances on hand for him online.

[Brian Nash]

My.

[Matt Koplik]

One of my personal favorites is Pippa was the Lap was the first of the Schuyler sisters to leave. So Groff was the first principal to leave. I can't speak for all the ensemble members, but after Groff, Miranda, Leslie Odom Jr. And Pippa were the next to leave. And they Let. They left, like, three weeks after the Tonys.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then it was pretty quick after that.

[Brian Nash]

Well, wait, no. Wasn't. Wasn't Mandy one of the first ones in?

[Matt Koplik]

Mandy.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Renee left pretty soon after that.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah. There was, like, this really, like, lovely handoff video.

[Matt Koplik]

If Pippa left in July, I call her Pippa. Like, I know her. But if Pippa left in July, I want to say Renee left in September.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So did it for, like, 13 months. And then Mandy came in. And then Mandy did it forever.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. But now she just finished. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Montego did it for a while, too. Did she not on Broadway. Yeah, I could have sworn she did. KO did it in Chicago, which. That was sort of the show that brought Kayo back from.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Retirement.

[Brian Nash]

And she. I saw. I saw Karen do it before I saw Mandy do it, but she was the first one to do the written riff.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, and the. And the. There is a melody in that song that actually comes from a piece that Ko Was working on with Lin Manuel Miranda. They had written a couple of lyrics, and Lynn had written some music. And then when he was writing Satisfied, his mind clicked on that song, and he texted. KO Is like, can I use this music? And they went, yeah, dude, it's. It's your music.

[Brian Nash]

Like, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because the project was dead by that point. And like, yeah, just take it. But so it's fitting that they. They did in Chicago. But also, you know, brings Ko back from retirement, which lasts very shortly.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And something else will take them out of retirement again.

[Brian Nash]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

Seems like they're coming back again.

[Brian Nash]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

But, yeah, the thing about the hamper ham, that pisses me off and something that I always want to remind people of. So the ham for ham, it's $10. It's a Hamilton dollar bill for a Hamilton ticket to Hamilton. And it's the first two rows of the orchestra.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Or originally it was the first row. Yeah, it was the first row of the orchestra. Now I think it's the first two rows.

[Brian Nash]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Or. Yeah, because they added. It was 21 seats, and then I think they bumped it up to 4. 40.

[Brian Nash]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe 30. And when they did that, they upped the price of the premium seats from like, $450 to $850.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I remember Lynn making a statement saying, in order for us to increase the number of ham for ham tickets, we have to do this for the premium seats. Which is not true.

[Brian Nash]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

It was simply the market. It was them also trying to combat StubHub. Mm. Which was making hand over fist reselling Hamilton tickets.

[Brian Nash]

Absolutely.

[Matt Koplik]

My. To the point that my sister, who makes so much money, she makes so much money. My bitch sister, who I love very dearly, asked me when Hamilton was on Broadway the very first year, and she said, do we want to get in on this? She's like, if I. She's like, if you buy the tickets, just buy them and I will reimburse you. And then we resell them and we split the profits. How does that sound? And I said, well, not sustainable. And also, like, they're also. At the moment. She asked. I was like, there are literally no seats to buy to then resell at that moment. She's like, so you. We'd have to wait five months till the next blocks come out. Comes out. But maybe. But also, it's not great. But for my own sister to say that, who I cannot stress enough. Makes so much money, makes so much for her to be like, could we get in on this? Could I maybe quit my job and do this?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So it was them trying to combat StubHub by doing that. And also just the fact that they could. That was the. That's the. That's the problem. That was that. That's the problem with the free market. Again, one of those things that we talk about with Hamilton and his legacy of, like, yes, he did so much and about building good for this country, but so much of it has kind of led to other pains for Americans in this country. And yes, okay, 10 more people can see Hamilton now for $10 or 15 more people. But the problem with the lottery is it doesn't. Similar to life. As Aaron Burr says, lotteries don't discriminate between the rich and the poor. So, like, my. Again, my sister, my cousins, who are, you know, doctors and lawyers, all can enter the Hamilton lottery.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Even though they make so much more money than I do or other people. So who's to say that the people are paying $10 for Hamilton?

[Brian Nash]

Couldn't afford.

[Matt Koplik]

Couldn't afford the premium.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They're just trying to not.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so it's. It's. It's a very weird situation. One that I don't love. And I don't think the premium seats are that high anymore. If you look at their grosses, they haven't hit close to 3 million in a long time since COVID Yeah. Which I'm all for. Because the other thing I want everyone to remember is Hamilton is expensive to run. You know, it has a lot of royalties going for all the people that Lynn wanted to be A good guy and pay for. I'm sure that creative team has amazing contracts that gives them percentages. Lynn's dad has a percentage. Ron Chernow has a percentage. In addition to, like, all the understudies and whatnot. Like, and then the original cast with their royalties. Although that's just pure net. That doesn't come out of the running cost. But it's got a high running cost. It does not have a $2.5 million running cost. They do not need $3 million to break even.

[Brian Nash]

No, no. We're near.

[Matt Koplik]

Nowhere near. They're just simply. They are making the money that they know they can.

[Brian Nash]

I did get my first kind of email from, like, I'm on the mailing list there was like, hey, you want to come in January? We got 99 seats. Anyone want to come to Hamilton? I was like, oh, okay, girl. That's starting to happen. Yeah. It took, you know, seven years. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They. They are no longer. Every night is sold out.

[Brian Nash]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And part of that is Covid. But also, like, it's no show.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Runs at 100 capacity their entire run.

[Brian Nash]

No, I mean, they're still. I think they're still officially above 100% capacity, but like Lion King.

[Matt Koplik]

They. Hamilton has had a couple of, like, mid to high 90 weeks.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

This year.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I think the last, like, three months, they've been, like, steadily in, like, the 95 range, which, again, like most shows would kill for. They are in no danger whatsoever. They have a made so much money already. They continue to make so much money. They're. They are not going anywhere anytime soon.

[Brian Nash]

And they're ever sick. Price is still insane. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But people were like, comparing it now to Wick to Phantom, like, well, look what Phantom's grossing. I'm like, fan. Everyone also thinks Phantom's gonna be gone in two months, which is why everyone's paying through the nose to see it.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And now. Oh, oh, by the way, it's. We got three more months after.

[Brian Nash]

Exactly. Exactly. And Phantom ran at, you know, 60 capacity with an average ticket price of $55 for 30 years. Yep. You know, it hasn't been at sellout in, you know, decades.

[Matt Koplik]

Literally decades since. Since the 21st century.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Phantom, basically. If you. If you look at the grosses of Phantom from when it opened through the mid-90s, it is. It is a miracle that, like, for eight solid years, it was pretty much non stop sold out.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Then in the late 90s, they start to do. What Hamilton's doing now is like, dipping to, like, the very healthy 95 percenters where it's, you know, by no means terrible, but it is no longer like, oh, don't worry, like we're sold out for months. Don't even try bother.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like, no, if you, if you stop by, you might be able to get something. Yeah, maybe it won't be great, but you'll get something. And then 911 happens. And they struggled for three years, like they could not recover from it, but they stuck it out because the movie was coming out.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then the movie got them back on track for a few years. Never again was it like every week as a sellout. It was like it became all of a sudden major holidays.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Huge Valentine's Day, like Saturday nights. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then everything else was just down. But it had made so much money and it could rely on those like nine weeks out of the year where it made fucking insane amounts of money.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But that's where we're at now with Phantom anyway. But yeah, it's. Hamilton's in no danger. But yeah, with the ham for ham and the ticket pricing, that's the thing that always pissed me off. And I, you know, Lynn wants to be the good guy, so he doesn't want to go out in public and be like, listen guys, we're charging $800 because we can get it.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, we can get it. I, I was being a very, very good son. And when the Chicago sit down opened, I snatched up tickets for my parents. I'm from Chicago, for Christmas, didn't tell them I was going to be home. And I got them for like the 26th. And of course like that was the full on like panic buying moment. So everything was crashing. Like the second the tickets went on sale. It was like you're in a queue and everything like is like dying. So I was on my phone, I was on my iPad and I was on my laptop trying to buy tickets at the same time and everything was crashing. And then suddenly two different orders went through at the exact same moment. So I suddenly had three, six tickets to Hamilton on the 26th of December. And I was like, oh, oh, I need to ask other people. Then I'm like, no, I don't. No, I don't. I'm going to sell these and I'm going to pay for the entire thing. Yeah, I think I made a lot of money on those tickets.

[Matt Koplik]

Not only was did it and did you end up offsetting the cost. You got a profit out of it.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, I paid for those tickets and then I still made like 600 bucks. I'm a. I'm a nightmare capitalist.

[Matt Koplik]

Hi, Daddy.

[Brian Nash]

I'm. I'm so sorry.

[Matt Koplik]

What pretty thing.

[Brian Nash]

What are you.

[Matt Koplik]

What pretty thing are you buying for me with that money?

[Brian Nash]

I'm buying you. No, you already have the Kimberly Akimbo. If life gives you lemons. Oh, yeah, yeah. Tote.

[Matt Koplik]

So go out and steal some apples, cuz. Who the wants.

[Brian Nash]

Who the wants lemons?

[Matt Koplik]

I could. I could use a Kimberly sweatpant to go with my sweatshirt. I have the toe. I have the sweatshirt.

[Brian Nash]

Pants.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know. I didn't check. I mean, I will check when I go back because I will be going back. Yeah, I fully intend to see that show again come January. But. Yeah, I don't know what else they have. Yeah, I don't know what else.

[Brian Nash]

What do you want with my Hamilton blood money from, you know, 2016 or whenever the fuck that was?

[Matt Koplik]

I want the world. The only other thing I can really talk about is sort of like, you know, we. The show has just been everywhere. Continues to be everywhere. The point that it's just sort of. It's. It's referenced in everything. It was referenced on snl. Good place.

[Brian Nash]

The number of times you just hear. You know the room where it happens. Yep. Now.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. Office ladies, they talk about all the time. Every time. Like. Yeah, the writers room. The room where it happens. I'm like, yeah, we all know Hamilton.

[Brian Nash]

Shut up.

[Matt Koplik]

Shut up. You have so much money. Angela Kinsey and Jenna Fisher. But yeah, and I mean, the night, the Tony Awards ceremony that year, everyone knew Hamilton was winning.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But like, for this, it was partly funny, partly kind of annoying for the ceremony itself to be so Hamilton focused and like, make light of the fact that everyone knew it was coming. It's like the opening sequence was the Alexander Hamilton's song and James Corden hosting.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And with. With the cast of Hamilton after they had done the Grammys, after they had performed at the White House.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And they did a ham for him from the White House, but he, like, he's holding a Tony ward and they're all about to grab. He goes, no, you just wait. You just wait. Which was funny. But then they closed the night out with the Schuyler sisters and like, it was the Hamilton evening.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Winning like 11 out of 12 Tonys, I think.

[Brian Nash]

Something like that. And that wasn't even, like, you know, the 95 Tonys where there was literally one original musical. So it's like, yeah, we're just gonna do the Tonys on the Sunset Boulevard set. Sorry.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, we're sorry.

[Brian Nash]

There are no options.

[Matt Koplik]

There are no options, y'. All. No, they did it at the Beacon, but they.

[Brian Nash]

It was.

[Matt Koplik]

It was just the Hamilton evening.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. And. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

The Hamilton mixtape with all the pop stars. And then I think there's anything else that we haven't really discussed. Well, so Hamilton was up against Bright Star, Shuffle Along Waitress, and School of Rock for Best Musical. I think the right show won, don't you?

[Brian Nash]

Wow, that's just sad. It's just sad to hear.

[Matt Koplik]

Were you not a Shuffle along fan?

[Brian Nash]

I loved it. I thought it was brilliant.

[Matt Koplik]

I did, too.

[Brian Nash]

I. And I thought it was absolutely incredible.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's. It's an interesting lineup. School of Rock impressed me. I thought I was gonna hate it. I did not hate it. It was pretty good. It wasn't great. It was pretty good. Waitress, I think, is a good musical that was given a bad original production. I hated the actual staging and design of it and the tone of it, but I was like, I think this material is good. I would like to see it done smaller and more simply. And then Bright Star is some lovely music and some of the worst lyrics in years. Threw that baby from a train.

[Brian Nash]

Yep. Did not see it.

[Matt Koplik]

No Shuffle Along, I thought should have won choreography, but that is just me.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, I mean, the choreography was good, but, I mean, I think the Hamilton choreography is just so integral to the way they tell a story. Yeah. Yeah. I just felt it was. You know, the shuffle along dancing was wonderful. This is a kind of a cooler way of storytelling.

[Matt Koplik]

If you say so, Grandpa.

[Brian Nash]

Through the dance.

[Matt Koplik]

Through the Lord of the Dance. So, Brian.

[Brian Nash]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

We're gonna just wrap this up now, then, Matthew. We have two games on this show now for this series, anyway.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, dear.

[Matt Koplik]

They are the same game. They just have different titles. One is called Six Degrees of Sally Murphy.

[Brian Nash]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

The other is called who Lives, who Dies? Jeanine Tesori.

[Brian Nash]

Great.

[Matt Koplik]

Now that one is simply Six Degrees of Geneine Dossori.

[Brian Nash]

Okay, great.

[Matt Koplik]

And we have to find a connection to Sally Murphy and Janine Tesori from Hamilton. We can use any of the original company members and anyone from the production team.

[Brian Nash]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

But that is. That is it. I can aim for Sally Murphy if you want to aim for Janine Tesori.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure. I have not thought of this yet.

[Brian Nash]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

It's been a week, y', all, so I did not pre think of this. So let me say that Philippa Sue. Well, once again, the carousel connection. Philippa sue in into the woods with Brian Darcy James, who Did Carousel with Sally Murphy, but I keep coming back to that. Well, I want to challenge myself. Let's see what else I can do.

[Brian Nash]

Okay. Okay. So Janine Tesori. Okay, where are we gonna go here? I keep trying to think of odd things, and that's not going to be helpful. Oh, God. Wow.

[Matt Koplik]

It's tricky for show.

[Brian Nash]

Why am I drawing? Oh, okay. Well, Brian Darcy James was in Shrek. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, we're including Brian Darcy James from Hamilton. Well, you could do Philip Basu to Brian Darcy James from Into the woods because we're talking Broadway opening companies.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, we're doing Broadway. Okay. Damn it.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, so.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, well, somebody else has. Fine. We'll go to, you know, Brian Darcy James to literally anyone else in the cast.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

To Shrek. To Janine. I think there's a better one, though. I'm sure there is.

[Matt Koplik]

There's got to be another one. I was thinking of is Jonathan Groff in Spring Awakening.

[Brian Nash]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Directed by Michael Mayer.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Who directed Thoroughly Modern Millie with Mark Kudish, who was in Wild Party with Sally Murphy.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, there we go. That's good.

[Matt Koplik]

I keep trying to get to that Threepenny Opera she did at the Atlantic or even Bernarda Alba, but it's tricky. It's tricky. Men of no Importance. I mean, I could also say, you know, oh, Philip Basu bangs Stephen Pasquale on the reg. Steven Pasquale, man of no Importance with Sally Murphy. But, yeah, that doesn't really work.

[Brian Nash]

That's a stretch, probably.

[Matt Koplik]

So. So. So I've been told.

[Brian Nash]

Mm.

[Matt Koplik]

I think those are solid ones, though. Yeah, we'll keep those.

[Brian Nash]

Okay, cool.

[Matt Koplik]

Brian, this has been a delight.

[Brian Nash]

It's been. It's been a wonder. It's been wonderful to watch you eat a waffle.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you. And that wasn't a euphemism. I truly ate a waffle with some Canadian bacon.

[Brian Nash]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

And had a beer.

[Brian Nash]

Is it Canadian bacon or was it turkey bacon?

[Matt Koplik]

Turkey bacon. I guess it looked like Canadian bacon for a second in my.

[Brian Nash]

I was more excited if it was gonna be Canadian bacon.

[Matt Koplik]

Sad, sad, sad, sad.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Where can people find you if you want people to find you?

[Brian Nash]

I don't know. I do. I do. I just don't have, like. I haven't updated my website since the Pandy.

[Matt Koplik]

Since the Panera Bread.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Pokeball.

[Brian Nash]

Since the Pandemic. Lovato. So, yeah, I'm at Brian J. Nash on all the things. Except I deleted Twitter because fuck that.

[Matt Koplik]

Are you on Hive now?

[Brian Nash]

I plead the Fifth fair. I'm not On Hive with my main.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, with your alt. With your. With your only fans account.

[Brian Nash]

Maybe with an alt. I'm not saying this.

[Matt Koplik]

You don't have to say nothing. We can count.

[Brian Nash]

How's your listenership?

[Matt Koplik]

It's solid, actually.

[Brian Nash]

Great.

[Matt Koplik]

I have a couple of hundred.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah. I'm. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Rent for. For such a low volume episode that's three and a half hours long to rent a episode has like almost 2,000 listens.

[Brian Nash]

People love the rent. I love the rent.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah. It's. It's. It's a fun show to talk about. Okay. So they can find you with that.

[Brian Nash]

Brian J. Nash kind of everywhere.

[Matt Koplik]

If you want to find me, I'm on Instagram only. Attcoplek. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, you can give us five stars, give us a nice little rating there, or you can give us a nice little review. We love a good review. Join us next week when we cover who the fuck knows what. Because this whole thing is out of order. It determines the order me based off of when my guests are available and what it is they want to cover. And since we're not doing a career of an artist, it doesn't necessarily have to be in chronological order. And with Off Broadway to Broadway transfers, it's. There isn't enough of an arc that it matters to go in chronological order. They all tend to follow the same metrics. It's more just about how they're received in their time. It's not like the British Invasion where, like, it became increasingly more about replicas and marketing it around the world and.

[Brian Nash]

Blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Matt Koplik]

Brian. We close out every episode with a Broadway diva.

[Brian Nash]

Great.

[Matt Koplik]

Who would we like to close out today? Would we like to make it Hamilton themed? Would we like to talk about Ms. Bianco if you're nasty? We could do. Pippa.

[Brian Nash]

We could do. I think it would be fun because there is a good recording of the Broadway diva hamilton on the youtubes. If you want to take Ms. Bianco.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Brian Nash]

Give him a little bit of Skyler Sisters or some such.

[Matt Koplik]

I could also, I mean, I could just say total you and pull out one of her Forbidden Broadway tracks.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, true.

[Matt Koplik]

I did see her in Forbidden Broadway. She was in the last one before the. Before they went away the first time.

[Brian Nash]

Right? Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because I remember heard she played Cheno.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Although I think they eventually cut it, but put it on the album.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Don't you know, love how much I know about this?

[Brian Nash]

I do, I do. And I'm fascinated by your brain.

[Matt Koplik]

My brain. Oh, God, it's. I hate my brain. I wish it could know cooler stuff, like French. Anyway, so, okay, we'll do bianca. We'll do Ms. Bianco. So that's it. Join us next week for who knows what. And until then, guys, have a lovely time. I hope you enjoyed listening to me eat a waffle. Yeah, take us away with Bianco. Bye, Patty. The poem.

[Brian Nash]

Adina Menzel at Kristen.

[Matt Koplik]

Remind me what we're looking for.