IN THE HEIGHTS w/ Philippe Arroyo

Summary

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Broadway Breakdown: IN THE HEIGHTS with Philippe Arroyo

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Philippe Arroyo (Broadway’s & Juliet)
Date: July 13, 2023

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Overview

This episode of Broadway Breakdown dives into the musical In the Heights—its history, legacy, and cultural impact—with actor Philippe Arroyo. Host Matt Koplik and Philippe have a lively, uncensored, and detailed conversation about the show’s Off-Broadway-to-Broadway journey, Lin-Manuel Miranda’s artistry and representation in musical theatre, the nuances of the original work versus the movie adaptation, and what “home” truly means for the show’s characters and for themselves.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Connections to IN THE HEIGHTS

• Philippe’s First Professional Experience
  Philippe reminisces about his initial gigs performing in In the Heights at age 19 for just $300, highlighting how this formative experience shaped his theatre path.

  “It was the experience, really, that I was gaining.” — Philippe Arroyo [02:07]

• Connection to Culture & Identity
  Playing various roles in In the Heights, Philippe shares how the show allowed him, a Puerto Rican raised in Alabama who doesn’t speak Spanish, to connect with his Latin heritage without the pressure of fluency:

  “Never once have I seen Latin characters that didn’t necessarily… It wasn’t always about being Hispanic.” — Philippe [10:51]

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2. Lin-Manuel Miranda & The Broadway “Jesus”

• Miranda's Role in Representation
  The hosts discuss Lin-Manuel Miranda as a trailblazer for artists who didn’t previously see themselves reflected on Broadway.

  “The best way… is to write your own material and throw yourself in a position where you can write yourself as anything you want to be.” — Philippe [04:41]

• Perception of Lin-Manuel’s Success and Humility
  Matt and Philippe debunk the notion that Miranda is an egotist—especially compared to the Internet’s perception—praising his humility even as his fame soared.

  “I think he knows where he came from… I don’t know that he knows how good he is.” — Philippe [06:39]

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3. Broadway Landscape: Tonys and Musical Theatre Trends

• The 2008 Tony Awards Season
  An in-depth discussion of the year In the Heights won Best Musical against strong revivals like Gypsy and South Pacific, and unexpected nominees like Cry-Baby.

  “The four musical nominees were In the Heights, Passing Strange, Crybaby, and Xanadu. We have three very strong nominees and one that is there because Young Frankenstein and Little Mermaid were considered disappointments.” — Matt [13:09]

• Changing Broadway Economics
  Ticket price inflation, star-driven vehicles, and the evolving formula for what constitutes "commercial" Broadway success.

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4. Legacy & Critique of IN THE HEIGHTS

• Criticism of “Disneyland” Washington Heights
  The musical’s sunny portrayal of the neighborhood—critics claim it’s sanitized compared to real life. Both hosts, one living in the area, discuss balancing positivity with honesty about neighborhood realities.

  “There is a difference... For sure, you're right. There is, like, a lighter version of Washington Heights, but the sense of community rings true within reality.” — Philippe [23:49]

• Cultural Impact: A Love Letter to Community
  Parallels are drawn between In the Heights and recent shows like New York, New York—how these shows function as love letters to the city, offering affirmation amidst New York’s grit.

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5. Representation & Internal Broadway Diversity

• Afro-Latinx Critique of the Film
  The hosts acknowledge valid criticisms of the film adaptation’s lack of Afro-Latinx representation and Miranda’s public response:

  “To his credit, Lynn came out and said… ‘You're absolutely right. We tried. This is an aspect where we failed you, and I'm very sorry.’” — Matt [34:27]

• Broader Lessons on Representation
  The importance of multiple stories being told, challenging artists to respond to underrepresentation by creating rather than only critiquing:

  “The hope is that you get enough stories over time that everyone gets covered at some point.” — Matt [37:34]

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6. Honest Critique and the Role of Criticism in Theatre

• Artists, Criticism, and Growth
  A candid discussion on handling criticism, the pitfalls of social media hot takes, and the need for deeper artistry and substance over snark.

  “Brevity is the soul of wit, it's not necessarily the soul of insight.” — Matt [71:00]

• Criticism as Fuel
  Philippe reflects on how artists can productively use criticism for evolution, while Matt points to the necessity of critics understanding creators’ intentions.

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7. Character-by-Character Deep Dive

• Usnavi and Vanessa
  Usnavi is seen as the linchpin, sometimes more than a traditional lead, with his journey about finding home and community. Vanessa is examined as a character with vague but relatable ambitions—a desire for escape, representing many who hope a change of setting will spark life changes.

  “Her song is so interesting… she's very specific about her environments, but she's very vague about what it is that she wants.” — Matt [126:46]

• Nina and Benny
  Nina’s arc of pressure as the “pride of the barrio” is seen as more powerful on stage than the film, where her academic struggles (and not racism) are the crux. Benny is explored as “family man” and his role as both an insider and outsider in the community.

• Sunny & Graffiti Pete
  Sunny’s political consciousness and youthful optimism are praised, and Philippe expresses personal connection to the role.

  “In my opinion, Sunny is, like, the only character who's, like, kind of in the moment… he wants to foster his community.” — Philippe [153:04]

• Abuela Claudia
  Her Act I show-stopper “Paciencia y Fe” stands out as an unexpected diva turn and emotional high point.

  “It gives you a facet to a character that you have always thought of as this one thing.” — Matt [82:11]

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8. Movie Adaptation—What Works and What Doesn’t

• Casting
  General approval for the casting, with some reservations about the portrayal of Nina.

  "I think they cast the movie really well..." — Matt [66:28]

• Structural and Thematic Changes
  Critique of shifting focus to Usnavi/Vanessa at the expense of other characters, movie's use of the framing device, and inconsistent visual tone.

  “You build the head of the horse and the legs fall off.” — Matt [67:48]

• Biggest Movie Gripes

  • Lottery plot gets sidelined.
  • Abuela's storyline loses impact.
  • Some musical numbers lack the stage version’s cohesion or emotional crescendo.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Broadway’s Humility and Imposter Syndrome:

  “You wake up every day when you reach a certain moment of success... going, ‘Is today the day that everyone realizes I'm a fraud, that everything turns on me?’”—Matt [07:07]

• On Lin-Manuel’s Earnestness:

  “Genuine love can make a lot of people uncomfortable. And, you know, snark is considered more intelligent than just open-hearted love. And Lin… that man's got his heart on his sleeve.” — Matt [06:42]

• On Criticism and Growth:

  “It's easy to always just have been a good person and… continue being a good person. But if you did get corrupted once and recognize it and then try to retrace your steps and go back… I think it's harder, and I think it's something that warrants recognition.” — Matt [32:31]

• On Broadway Age Realities:

  “We tend to cast older actors… Most shows where characters are extraordinarily messy, the characters tend to be on the younger side. And you don't realize that because we tend to cast older actors.” — Matt [115:16]

• Philippe on Meeting Lin-Manuel:

  “He just grabs my arm. He's like, let's go, let's go, let's go on stage. And he's... making that moment even more special. And that's why I feel like… having to get to meet him, someone who I kind of equate to being, like, my idol in a way...” — Philippe [29:09]

• Matt on Artistic Integrity

  “Get comfortable in your life, not your art.” — Matt [59:42]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening—Introductions and Personal Connections – [00:32]–[04:41]
• Lin-Manuel as Role Model/“Jesus of Broadway” – [04:07]–[07:28]
• Tonys Seasons and Comparative Broadway Demographics – [13:07]–[21:03]
• Representation Debate & Movie Adaptation: Critique and Context – [34:14]–[46:47], [66:14]–[67:48], [73:41]–[78:00]
• Favorite Songs/Numbers (Champagne, 96,000, Paciencia y Fe, Carnaval del Barrio, Blackout) – [48:05]–[49:10], [81:40]–[84:08]
• Detailed Character Discussion (Nina, Benny, Vanessa, Usnavi, Sonny, Abuela Claudia) – [100:25]–[156:26]
• Industry Meta-Discussion (Criticism, Artistic Growth, Diversity) – [71:00], [88:52]–[93:56], [148:42]–[150:02]
• Cutting Songs: What Would You Cut? – [168:06]–[168:41]
• Closing & Social Handles – [169:02]–[172:41]

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Tone and Language

The entire exchange is energetic, candid, frequently irreverent, and laden with theatre insider references. Matt's tone is passionate, sarcastic, and informed; Philippe is warm, earnest, and occasionally self-effacing. Swear words and jokes about age, sexuality, and theatre life are sprinkled liberally throughout (“We’re both Jesus in this situation in different ways…” [03:55]).

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Key Takeaways

• In the Heights remains pivotal for Latin representation on Broadway—and is honest, if imperfect, in its portrayal of both cultural realities and dreams.
• Lin-Manuel Miranda’s personal journey and success continue to elicit admiration, debate, and deeper questions about representation and humility in theatre.
• The show's heart, optimism, and sense of community are its greatest strengths, both on stage and (to a lesser extent, per the hosts) in the movie.
• Productive criticism, growth, and honest discourse are essential to artistic evolution—something this episode both models and encourages within the fan community.

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Play Out:

Matt and Philippe close the show by toasting, joking about social media, reviews, Broadway "daddies," and choosing Bonnie Milligan as the episode's Broadway diva outro.

“She's a fucking Tony winner now. Her and Sean Hayes, baby.” [173:18]

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For the Deeply Curious: Listen to the full episode for behind-the-scenes theatre stories, more musical hot takes, and Matt & Philippe’s banter about everything from skin care to Sondheim.

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Transcript

[A]

Lights up on Washington Heights up at the break of day I wake up and I got this little punk I gotta chase away Pop the grade at the crack of dawn Sing while I wipe down the awning Hey, y', all, good morning.

[B]

Ice cold piragua, paracha chino, cherry, strawberry and just for today I got mame. I am Usnavi, and you probably never heard my name.

[A]

Reports of my fame are greatly exaggerated, exacerbated by the fact that my. Hello, all you theater lovers, both out and proud and on the DL, and welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. This series is called the Big Move, and it is covering shows that had so much success off Broadway that they just had to transfer to the Great White Way. And look over there. My guest today is a Broadway actor, singer. You might have seen him in Und Juliet as the role of Frankie, and we hope he's perfectly frank on this episode. Please welcome Philippe Arroyo.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

Hello, Philippe.

[B]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

Thanks for coming on, Philippe. Yeah. What motherfucking musical are we talking about?

[B]

Talking about one of my favorite musicals of all time, in the Heights. I did it a few times growing up. It was one of my very first professional musicals that I did that I paid $300 for the entire run.

[A]

Cold hard cash. $300?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. It was awful.

[A]

Well, yeah. How long was that run?

[B]

I think it was eight weeks. No, no, no. That's way too long for 300 bucks.

[A]

Yeah, it was, like, including rehearsal time.

[B]

Yeah. But it was also not Equity. And it was maybe, I wouldn't want to say, five weeks. Four or five weeks. Five bucks.

[A]

Five weeks. So that's five weeks of performances or five weeks including rehearsal, I think.

[B]

Including rehearsal.

[A]

Okay. That's still bad. But in my mind, I'm like, five weeks of performances plus three weeks of rehearsals. That's a lot.

[B]

It was great.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Listen, non equity, you do what you do until you don't need to do it.

[B]

I was young, you know, I was maybe 19. So it was the experience, really, that I was gaining.

[A]

We're still young, Philippe.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. For sure.

[A]

I dress like I'm still.

[B]

I'm at least 22.

[A]

I can play 22. I can play 22.I sleep in nothing but Vaseline every night.

[B]

That's really smart.

[A]

Thank you very much.

[B]

I should do that as well.

[A]

Well, you're playing an ingenue. You got To.

[B]

I'm playing an ingenue and I think that ingenue is also 18 in the show.

[A]

I'm pretty sure all of the characters other than Betsy are 18.

[B]

I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. I am not 18.

[A]

You're not?

[B]

No.

[A]

That's. That's theater lying to me. How, how not young are you? Don't give me a number. Just. Are you above 22?

[B]

Am I above 22? Yeah, I would say so.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

If I were, if I could crawl. Yeah.

[A]

If I could recrawl back into my.

[B]

Youth, I would, I would say I'm above 25.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I would say I'm above 28.

[A]

Oh, I listen. Samesies. Keep. If you, if you keep going. Let's say I'm 30, okay? I can, I can I consider that still young.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Cuz I am no longer 30. I'm not 40. I'm not even 35. But I am not 30 anymore.

[B]

Where are you?

[A]

Imagine if I was like, I'm 52.

[B]

Fine.

[A]

Yeah, no, I'm 30. I. Thank you. I turned 33 a few months ago.

[B]

Congratulations.

[A]

Thank you very much.

[B]

It's the Jesus year. Correct.

[A]

People keep saying that. And I'm like, I'm Jewish. And we view Jesus as like. The Jews view Jesus as like we're a family that all went to Harvard and he decided to go to Sarah Lawrence. It's like he went down his own path.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

We're not upset about it. This is different from ours.

[B]

I mean, my parents are doctors and I went to musical theater. So I guess in the same way I'm sort of like Jesus in that. Like I went on my own path. I'm not 33. But yet.

[A]

Yet, yes, it'll happen.

[B]

I'll call you though when I'm 33.

[A]

Please do. I'll equate myself to Jesus. Yeah, we're both Jesus in this situation in different ways. And speaking of Jesus, some might say the Jesus of musical theater is attached to in the Heights.

[B]

Yeah, it's in there.

[A]

Yeah. I don't think he would say that about himself.

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah, that's one of those things that people like to think about, Lin, where I'm like, listen, I love the guy and like all of us, we all, you know, he has his fault like the rest of us. But I don't think he is the egotist people like to make him out to be.

[B]

I never, I never thought that people did.

[A]

Well, so, I mean, the Internet is a wonderful hellscape, you know, And Gen Z has a Lot of opinions where it's sort of, you know, you take. You get three piece, three nuggets of information. Okay. I know the whole landscape.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like when the movie came out and he was Pete Agua, everyone was.

[B]

Like, oh, you know, I was thinking about this on my way over here, and I was actually thinking about how much I love that he puts himself in his own works. Because I have a couple of shows that I wish that I could have created. And I sit on the subway, I listen to my musicals and I cast them in my head as if I wrote them. And then the Heights in Hamilton are one of those things. And I imagine this world where I wrote this musical and I cast myself in my own thing. And I think it's because. And I think I've actually heard Lynn speak about this, is that he didn't see himself in a lot of the roles that were written for Broadway. And I think the best way to combat that is to write your own material and throw yourself in a position where you can write yourself as anything.

[A]

You want to be.

[B]

I think that's great. And I think also people can see that in a negative way.

[A]

But also his earnestness. And we'll talk about this with the show itself, I have found works that are super earnest. And people who are super earnest, they tend to break out big early. And then there's always a backlash to that because, you know, genuine love can make a lot of people uncomfortable. And, you know, snark is considered more intelligent than just open hearted love. And Lin is, you know, if nothing, that man's got his heart on his sleeve. Love is love. Yeah. He's got it under his armpit, on his nose. It's everywhere. And it's something I really appreciate about him and especially as he gets more and more successful. My only gripe with Linux, and this is not a him problem so much as I'm like, just take a moment to look around. Part of me loves that everything he does, he's still like, can you believe they let us do this? And part of me is like, yes, because you're Lin Manuel Miranda, they'll let you do anything you want.

[B]

I think it's. I think he's just. I think he knows where he came from.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And I think there's like a humbleness to him in that he. I don't know. I don't know that he knows how good he is. I know other people could vastly disagree with me on that, but to me, I've always seen it as a genuine Take on his surprise at where he is.

[A]

Well, so I talked about this with Courtney Bassett, with Celine Dion, who's in Titanic. She's in Titanic. Yes. Because Kathy Griffin used to have this comedy special, My Life on the D list. And she loves Selene, as, you know, anyone with taste does. But she talks about, like, if you go see Celine Dion in concert, if you ever did see her in concert, anytime she would come out, she looked genuinely surprised to see a stadium filled with people, as if she's unaware that she's been sold out for months.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think part of it is that Celine does always get surprised, because I've said this before, you know, if you read Nothing like a Dame, Audra McDonald talks about all the time in that book of, like, you wake up every day when you reach a certain moment of success. You wake up every day going, is today the day that everyone realizes I'm a fraud, that everything turns on me, and, like, it all goes away? And because it's happened for some people, like, you reach a certain level of success and it slips through your fingers. And I do think with Lin, it's always genuine relief. Not shock, but relief that when he does something and it's received well, he's like, oh, thank God. Because anyone who's creates. Creating something is fucking hard, right? Anything. And no matter what you contribute to it, it's difficult. And, you know, I talked about this with Todd on the spelling bee episode. If you're in something, if you're working on something, you gotta, you know, drink the Kool Aid a bit if you're gonna go out there with dignity. Right? And I've had friends do shows, you know, from Inception to opening night, where by the time they get to opening, they're like, I genuinely think the thing I'm in is great, and I'll go see it and we'll talk afterwards. I'm like, I don't think it's as great as you might have thought it was. Which is fine. You know, nothing can. Not everything can be amazing. But I say this to say, like, when you're working on something for so long and Lin doesn't half ass anything, the projects he works on always takes years. Take years.

[B]

Time.

[A]

Yeah, they take time. And so when it opens and there's a large love for it, it's not this Lean Dion of like, oh, my God, they came to the stadium. But more sort of like, more so, like, oh, yay. Like, it's not just me. At least 1400 people really like this guy.

[B]

Sure. But it's also tricky because how, as Celine Dion, do you not know that that is the response that you're gonna get? People are gonna come see you because you're fucking Celine Dion.

[A]

Well, but. So, okay, there's. There's the confidence you need to have of knowing you've got something to offer. Right. While also knowing that you're not gonna be for everyone. There's not a single artistic person or thing in this world that everyone loves. As anytime I write, I like to. I have a notebook in my room, and half of the pages are filled with quotes from critics of things I hate that are full on praise or things are generally considered terrible that they love, and then things that are generally considered amazing, and then finding all the bad reviews for them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like there's an infamous review in the New Yorker of the wizard of Oz, the movie, when it came out in 39, that's just like. It has absolutely no imagination, no creativity, visual styles all off. And I'm like, that might be one of those beautiful movies ever made.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know how you could think that, truly. You know, Oklahoma, when it was out of town, it was still called Away We Go. There was a review that said, no legs, no girls, no chance, or something like that. We're just like, jokes on them, jokes on them. And so I love shit like that. So in some ways you go, but of course it's lean, Dion. Like, you listen. I mean, you listen to the opening number of in the Heights. And like, of course. And yet I. I went back to research this thing because I do. I do deep dives. I do. I do the research. Yeah. And I mean, there were people who. And I have my notes on it, which we'll get into, but, like, there were people when the show was off Broadway, they were, like, unimaginative dull. And I can't see this having any life outside of Off Broadway. It's. It won't even have a life off Broadway. And I'm like, okay, first of all, even if the show's not totally free, you cannot deny that there are numbers in that show that are the opposite of dull.

[B]

No. They're fucking on my train right here. I'm listening to the album sobbing at Alabanza. Sobbing at. It's what it is. And I think the time that. Which it came out, I hadn't heard of anything like it before. I think the thing that I responded so much about it is, yes, it takes place in Washington Heights, and yes, there are a lot of Latin characters in it, but Never once have I seen Latin characters that didn't necessarily. It wasn't about always being Hispanic. It wasn't always about being Latin. I'm. I'm a Hispanic actor who was born in Alabama. I don't speak a lick of Spanish. And this is a show that I can do from when I'm 16 to when I'm 70.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I will always have a role that I can play within this show. I can be Sunny. I can be Usnavi when I get older. I can be Kevin when I get older. Maybe one day I'll be Abuela. Yeah. When we get to the 80s.

[A]

Listen, I think I would love to see that production.

[B]

I could sing it.

[A]

If there's ever version of the musical where they bring in changes from the movie. I would love to play Patrick Page.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And I. But I'm gonna be a very gay Patrick Page, and I'm gonna just come on stage every time, like, oh, honey, I'm taking you to the cleaners.

[B]

If you're gonna be a gay Patrick Page. The voice has got to be deeper. Oh, honey, that's great.

[A]

I'm taking you to the cleaners. Literally. Get it. Because they're a dry cleaning store. The. My hot take also within the Heights, as I re. Listened to it, and I went to the library yesterday to watch it again.

[B]

On At City center.

[A]

At Lincoln center. Because they have the Off Broadway cast. Sorry. They have the Off Broadway production taped as well as the Broadway production. The Broadway production they recorded in October right before Karen Oliva left to do west side Story, which that was a whole endeavor, but. Oh, yeah.

[B]

I didn't know that, you know, that.

[A]

She did west side Story or they did.

[B]

I knew that she did west side Story, but I didn't know that she left to do west side Story.

[A]

Oh, yeah. So in the Heights opened on Broadway in March of 08.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And west side Story, I believe, opened on Broadway in March of 09 with an out of town tryout in D.C. oh, wow. So I believe she had to leave to go to D.C. with West side Story in like November or December of 08. She wasn't. She was only on Broadway with the show for like 10. For like 7 or 8 months.

[B]

Nuts. Was she nominated?

[A]

No, she was not.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That. That we can. We'll talk about that as well. The Tonys. That was an interesting year with the Tonys because it just. It's so fun to. And I just did a whole series on the Tonys. It's so fun to watch people's Predictions early in the year and then how they shift, and then the things that seem so obvious now were not obvious then. So the year of in the Heights, it was. The four musical nominees were in the Heights, Passing Strange, Crybaby, and Xanadu. We have three very strong nominees and one that is there because Young Frankenstein and Little Mermaid were considered disappointments. Really?

[B]

Oh, yeah, I remember that. Young Frankenstein was at the time. I don't know if this was before Spider Man. Turn off the Dark was considered at the time one of the most expensive musicals. And then Shrek was also considered.

[A]

I think Shrek was the most expensive at the time. But Shrek was the year after Young Frankenstein. So Spider man was a few years after Frankenstein. Same theater, actually. This is why I'm here, because my brain is fucking stupid. Fucking stupid. But Young Frankenstein had a lot of bad buzz because it was right after the producer, Producers, and it was the most expensive ticket on Broadway. And they weren't. They chose not to release their grosses, which everyone was like, why would.

[B]

Yeah, why?

[A]

Because they wanted to sell the fact that they were a huge hit and they were totally sold out. But if you bought a 400 ticket and then saw that they were only 80% filled that week, you're like, what did I pay $400 for? I mean, and now that's like the average ticket price for half the shows on Broadway. But, yeah, that was considered a huge disappointment. Mermaid was considered. Considered a huge disappointment. So Crybaby sort of slipped in there in the last second as a fourth nominee.

[B]

I didn't even know that was a musical.

[A]

Crybaby.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. There's a reason why you don't know it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's was good. The only good thing about it was Ali Mozzie had a song called Screw Loose, and she was like, the one thing. Reason to see that show. But. And that show had a lot of talented people in it. But, yeah, when the season began, Xanadu was considered, like, a total joke. No one thought that show was gonna be good. It came out in the summer of 07, ended up being really good. And I was like, oh, this might win Best Musical. And they announced in the Heights was moving to Broadway, and then it was sort of like a tug of war of what would be considered the front runner. Because there were people who thought in the Heights wasn't gonna do well on Broadway. And then they announced Passing Strange was moving to Broadway, and everyone was like, oh, now it's between Passing Strange and In the Heights, which it still kind of was at Tony Night, which is silly to think about because much as I love Passing Strange and I love that show with every film fiber of my being covered it on this podcast. It is not the commercial show that in the Heights is.

[B]

No.

[A]

Which sounds. It sounded weird to call in the Heights commercial at the time. Everyone. It was a big gamble at the time because there were no names. In was a style of music that had not really been heard on Broadway, at least to that extent. And even though it had a lot of good buzz off Broadway, it transferred, like, nine months after the Off Broadway run. So it wasn't a direct move, and it was considered a dicey investment. And people also thought that the Richard Rodgers was too big of a theater for it. Everybody wanted a more intimate theater. Broadway world is a fascinating form to look at from, you know, 15 years ago. The things people say. And you're like, oh, how little you knew at the time.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. But I say also because when the show finally did open in March, everyone was like, okay, like, solid shot at musical. But, like, I think Lin's probably the front runner for actor.

[B]

Sure. Did he win?

[A]

He was nominated. He did not win. Lin has yet to win an award.

[B]

For acting, but for his musicals, he has for.

[A]

He's one best score for in the Heights and for Hamilton. And he won book for Hamilton as well. He was nominated for Us Navi. He did not win, but he was considered the front runner when it opened because the Times review for in the Heights, it liked the show, but it loved him. Charles Edgewood was like. And he liked the whole cast, but mostly he was like, lin Manuel Miranda is our next big Broadway star.

[B]

Which turned out kind of. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Turned out true. And he loved the score. He thought the score was pretty incredible. There are a couple of ballads that he wasn't into, which.

[B]

Yeah, that's a. That's a. Interesting thing about that musical too, where it's like, there's. There's a few things. It's interesting. When I listen to the album, there are skippable songs. When I watch the musical, I can't. I can't imagine the musical without it. But the movie certainly could.

[A]

Yeah. Well, there are two songs in the show where even when I watched it, I was like, I get why they're here. They make sense dramatically. But I just. I'm a little snip snip about it.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And it's. I. But that's just my own personal thing. What's Nina's.

[B]

What are Nina's parents Names Kevin. Kevin and Camila.

[A]

Camila, yes. Both of their songs I'm a little snip snip about. Yeah. And I know they. The Camila song came after Off Broadway. She didn't have a song off Broadway. And they added it in Act 2 for her to give her some, you know, backbone finally, which is great, and I love that. But. But the song for me is not. I love the idea of the song. I don't love the song itself, but those are the only two when I watch it, where I'm like, I could skip them. And then when I listen to the album. What are. What are. I'm trying to think of any other songs in the album that I usually skip. It's not a lot. It's. It's like it's 95% a no skip for me. But this is to say, with that love letter from the Times for Lynn, everyone thought it was going to be Lin winning the Tony. And then what ended up happening was. And everyone thought in the Heights would probably sweep the Tonys. What ended up happening was South Pacific opened in April.

[B]

Oh, my God. I know this.

[A]

Yep. And Patti LuPone Gypsy opened, I think, like, two weeks after in the Heights.

[B]

Because my dad in the show won.

[A]

Paolo shot Paolo. Yeah. He won the Tony.

[B]

He's the one that won over Lynn.

[A]

He sure did.

[B]

I forgot.

[A]

Yeah. Daddy Paolo.

[B]

Daddy, Paolo. My dad.

[A]

Your. Your show has quite a few dads in it, and I.

[B]

It does. We got Stark.

[A]

You got Stark, and you got Paolo, and then Paolo.

[B]

I'm 30. Can we call me a dad even though I play 18?

[A]

You're Zaddy.

[B]

Is that like a. To be daddy?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Zaddy with a Z is like daddy. It's like Daddy in training.

[B]

I'll call you once I get my first grade, and then we'll talk.

[A]

Do you have no grays at all?

[B]

No.

[A]

Must be nice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's it like to have a no stress life?

[B]

It's great.

[A]

Yeah. Your skin is glowing.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

You're doing great, Kim.

[B]

Thank you. I moisturize SPF 30 in the morning. Cetaphil. Cetaphil.

[A]

I moisturize in the morning and at night and then. Listeners don't know this, but when I showed up to the studio, I was swamped in sweat.

[B]

No, you were. But you looked like you were glowing.

[A]

You did well. And now I feel like now that I've dried off, the dew of the sweat is on my face. I just. My face is still.

[B]

Yeah, you're moisturized.

[A]

You look good.

[B]

I Don't I have camera ready?

[A]

No one would guess that I'm 45. Nobody. Are you?

[B]

No. 33.

[A]

You liar. Go fuck yourself. The fact that you even considered that I was 45.

[B]

No. Maybe.

[A]

This is. Well, guys, Matt Koplik found dead in a ditch.

[B]

No. Or me.

[A]

I don't have the upper body strength to kill anybody. I have the desire. Don't you worry. Between South Pacific and gypsy, there were 10 Tonys won by revivals, and then in the Heights won four. It was a big.

[B]

It sounds like it was a big year for.

[A]

It was.

[B]

For shows.

[A]

It was. So we had South Pacific and Gypsy with Batty. We had the Sunday in the park with George with all the projections. So, like, those three revivals were pretty, you know, Baller.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We had the Grease. You're the one that I want come out. The Grease with Max Crumb and Co Denier Laura Osnes. She's not a Denier. She just is like, so what? She's very Vanessa Hudgins about it. She's very like, yeah, people are going to die, but I need to go to the grocery store.

[B]

Oh, my God. My God. I totally forgot all about her.

[A]

Yeah. We're like, no, Laura Osnes. The show is not called crazy. It's called Crazy for your.

[B]

Oh, no. Poor, poor Laura.

[A]

Yeah, whatever.

[B]

We can't really say poor Laura.

[A]

Whatever. She has a career doing Hallmark movies in Tennessee. She's fine.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

I was more happy that she got canceled because I was like, oh, can I. Can we be open now about. How about her acting style? Can we.

[B]

I've never. I've never seen a lick of anything that she's ever done. I just know the name. I know the COVID thing. Call me a bad musical theater kid, but I just don't know. She did Bonnie and Clyde.

[A]

She sure did.

[B]

Okay. I know that much.

[A]

The things that Laura Osnes does well is mixing and being pretty. The things she doesn't do well are eating carbs and taking vaccines.

[B]

Oh, my gosh, you're terrible. It reminds me that I came from miles away.

[A]

Bringing it back to in the Heights, though, like, in the Heights is so interesting because it is a good time. It is not meant to be, you know, all gritty, hard dose of reality kind of show. There's. There's reality that kind of creeps into the crevices of it. Right. But Lynn and Kiara, who wrote the book, they both were very open about how they didn't want to create a show with Latinx characters. That was all Gangs and violence and drugs. They were like. You know, the way that Lin described it was. He is obsessed with west side Story. It's a masterpiece. He goes, however, and it's not west side Story's fault, but west side Story became the only musical theater outlet for Latin actors for decades.

[B]

And it vilifies Puerto Ricans.

[A]

Yeah, well, it vilifies.

[B]

It vilifies both parties.

[A]

Yeah. It vilifies straight guys, let's be honest. And for, you know, good measure. But the. He was like, it's not the show's fault that it's the only one there. There were meant to be more after just nobody picked up a pen and did it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He goes. So I was like, I kind of want to do the anti that just to have that other end of the spectrum. Like, why I. I would like there to be room for both in the community. And there is. But I do know that when the show came out, it was sort of a major criticism for some people myself a little bit, but not too much, was that it was a very Disneyland version of Washington Heights. Not of the community, but of that neighborhood. No violence, really, whatsoever. And it actually. The music actually might have more violence than the movie, probably.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, the biggest takeaway that I. Because I live in that area, I live in the Washington Heights area, and I know Lynn does as well, and I feel as if there is a difference. For sure, you're right. There is, like, a lighter version of Washington Heights, but the sense of community rings true within reality.

[A]

And the musical and the Heights that we have now is actually. It's not that it's more gentrified, although it is. There are more families of all backgrounds now up in the Heights and a lot of Broadway actors who now live up there. And Lynn does still live in the Heights, but he lives in a gated community further uptown. But the. The thing about that area is that, like, it is very communal. It is very nice. But, like, there is a lot of noise and there can be violence sometimes. And, you know, it's not a super squeaky clean place. For every, like, neighbor you have. That's lovely. You then have a neighbor that's, like, on the down and down.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And I think for the good intentions that the show has, it, you can't not address the things that they kind of gloss over. Exactly. But I think, again, because the show leads with so much heart and because the music is so fucking exceptional, it does ultimately carry the day to being a successful evening of theater.

[B]

Yeah. To me, I think the reason why? And I could just be making this up. I kind of equate it to New York, New York, which is just a love letter to New York and you. And the thing that I enjoyed about New York, New York, is just sitting there and going, wow, I really do love this city, as shitty as it is. You know, I step in shit all the time. I smell piss everywhere. And, you know, I'm about two blocks away from getting, like, beaten up by a random person. But when I watch in the Heights as well, I guess I just don't want to be. When I'm sitting there, I personally don't want to be reminded about how shitty New York is. I want to see. I want to see what makes New York beautiful and also what makes that neighborhood beautiful. But I also. I understand what you're saying, how you need to see. You need to have a bit of both.

[A]

For people who live in the city, it's always a little tricky when you see a show about New York, because for as far much of a love letter as something can be, some. For some of us, it's like, now it's going a little too far. Like, it becomes. I hate to use the term, like, it becomes a little maga about New York, where it's like, that's not actually what this city is. And the way I think that the best love letter in New York. And it's hard to do it on stage just because, like, no matter how much you try to, like, replicate Central park, at the end of the day, you're on a stage doing Central Park. But so film and TV tends to be a little better for me in terms of being love letters. But the one I think is the most love letter is Broad City.

[B]

I still don't know it, but I've seen a few episodes I know try to get.

[A]

I'm just a baby.

[B]

I don't have any money. Yeah, I know that.

[A]

Yeah, that's the first episode. No, it's really good. You should definitely watch it. Because the thing about Broad City is, first of all, the way they shoot New York, like, there are times when they just show you, like, the majesty of a certain area. Like, they. There's a. But they'll also poke fun of it. Like, there's an episode in the first season where they have to go to a wedding out in Connecticut, and they have. They. They're going to catch the train at Grand Central, and they're running late, and they get there and then they realize, actually, no, the tickets they have are from Penn Station, not Grand Central. So they're leaving Grand Central, but Lincoln Hannibal Burris, he, like, stops to look around. He goes, wow, Grand Central really is majestic. And. And they have this beautiful shot of it. And it. And it totally is.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And then, like, one of them grabs him, like, we have to fucking go.

[B]

And.

[A]

And then as they leave, one of the. They lose one of the members of their party because he's like, guys, I'm sorry. I just. I can't. Penn Station, it's too gross.

[B]

And then he's crazy.

[A]

And then he just walks away. He's like, I'm just not going to the wedding. And in fact, like. And to those of us who live in New York, we're like. Like, it's funny because it's heightened, but also kind of true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You have. So you have the beauty of Grand Central in one respect, while also the hustle and bustle. Like, we gotta fucking go. And then on the other end, Penn Station, it's disgusting. And this is Penn station also, like, 12, 13 years ago, because they're trying to make it less disgusting now, but it was very disgusting then. But even.

[B]

It's getting better.

[A]

Yeah. But even now with some of the renovations, like, you still see.

[B]

You know, you still smell the history.

[A]

You still smell the history. You still see a flock of pigeons gathering around a dead rat.

[B]

And.

[A]

And you just go, yep. I love this city.

[B]

This is the place for me.

[A]

Yeah. Do you know how I kind of think of New York? It's like when you are walking the streets and you step in dog poop, and then, you know, whatever. You go, I'm living in the same New York City as Sarah Jessica Parker.

[B]

She did this too.

[A]

She did this, too. She rides the subway, and she has to experience this as well. And that's the magic.

[B]

If Lin Manuel can step in dog shit, so can I. So can I. I have gotten the chance to meet Lynn twice, maybe. Sorry, two or three times. And being Puerto Rican, my parents and everyone that I know back in Puerto Rico, everyone's obsessed with Lin. Everyone loves Lin, and so do I. And so having to get to meet him, someone who I kind of equate to being, like, my idol in a way. Someone who is able to write and also be so successful in what he does and what he writes, in getting a chance to, like, meet him in person and him having seen my work and knowing my name. I think the second time that I met him was for a ham for ham thing. And I just saw him, and we were in the Richard Rogers Theater, and I was just looking around. He was standing next to me and I said, oh my God, like, this is like kind of like a dream. I'm like standing here with you. And I've seen this show so many times, 10 times maybe. And he just grabs my arm. He's like, let's go, let's go, let's go on stage. And he's. It's just me and him on stage and he's taking pictures and making that moment even more special. And that's why I feel like, I don't know, I love, I love him a lot just from the small interactions that we've had. Just because he doesn't know me very well, we don't know each other, but he still saw that I was.

[A]

I.

[B]

Was finding this moment to be very magical and he just wanted to accentuate that.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's not, it's the, it's the positive version of Kieran and Shipka on the other two going, you want to pick? But that's who I want to be. If I get famous enough, anytime someone's like, oh, it's so great to meet you, I'm just gonna turn super vapid and go, you want to pick a pick? It's like, oh, it's like, oh, you're so sweet. Do you want a pick?

[B]

Oh, no, I know.

[A]

No, that's. I think with Lynn, as someone who has never met him, I, I have waited on Tommy Kail a bunch and he's always been very nice to me. But I met like people like Sara Bareilles and people who are very sweet and very successful and they are very aware that they are successful and they are well regarded.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But they don't think that makes them better. It just makes them fortunate to, you know, have this. They've worked hard for the sex that they've had, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it just that it. That they've like earned it or like that they have. They're entitled to it. You know what I mean? Because a lot of people work hard and a lot of people are talented and a lot of people are smart, but some people just don't break through and it's. Or they don't break through to that extent and that is fine and that is frustrating and it's all the things. So I think to always be working hard, to always have something to prove, to always never take for granted the success you have is what can keep you sort of humbled and grounded. Right. And there are some just too much.

[B]

Success can make you complacent.

[A]

Yeah. And can definitely go to your head. We talked about this with the Spring Awakening cast. When that show opened in 07 or 06. 07. Like, did you watch that documentary, the. The Guilty ones or those you've known?

[B]

Yeah, the one that came out maybe 20, 21, 22.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know. I didn't know Spring Awakening very well, but that documentary, I wanted to learn more about it. I wanted to. I wish I had seen it.

[A]

It was a. It was a lovely show when it came out. But like that. That cast broke out very big in the theater scene, especially with teenagers. Like, teenage kids became so obsessed with it. And these. These very young actors, most of them who hadn't had any kind of success before, all of a sudden were treated like gods by, you know, maybe not millions of people, but like a large number of enough people that would show up every night to see them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That. I don't care who you are when you are 18 and 100 people every night are telling to your face, you are my idol. You are like God to me. That does something to you.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And.

[B]

And we. We've seen the proof of that.

[A]

We sure have. And now we're seeing people trying to, you know, backtrack. Yeah. Or recognizing that it has affected them and trying to rewire. And I think that is something to applaud. Whether they are actually able to do it or not, we don't know. But, like, it's. It's easy to always just have been a good person and. And continue being a good person. But if you did get corrupted once and recognize it and then try to retrace your steps and go back to.

[B]

Do you think that's harder?

[A]

I think it's harder. And I think it's something that warrants recognition. It. And it. Not everyone's able to do it, but the very fact that you are trying is something to recognize. But it's something that bothers me that J. Groff said in the documentary. He's like, it's so crazy. You know, the show was so successful, but it didn't go to any of our heads. And I'm. Yeah, I'm sitting there going. I can tell you for a fact, based on personal experience as someone who was never a guilty one. I was a Greg Gardens kid. I pride myself on it. But I know people who were a part of that show, either who worked on it or replaced or I know people who were best friends with people in the original company. Like, it did go to a Lot of members, heads. And that's. There's nothing.

[B]

So many stories.

[A]

Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with it in the sense that if you can look back and go, oh, you know What? I was 18 and a shit, and I can only do better moving forward. But to say. To just blatantly say that I was like, J. Groff, maybe it didn't feel that way to you. And he is someone who I understand is also, like, very kind and gracious and, you know, despite how much success he has gotten, it has never really got to his head either.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it means, like, you're not really looking back honestly at the time, or you turned a blind eye to a lot of things that happened. And I think the only thing better than, you know, just being amazing all the time always is recognizing when there was shitty things or shitty moments that you've done.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And understanding what the. What it is that you did that caused pain and. And trying to build from that, you know, something that happened with the casting of the movie of in the Heights, where there was a lot of backlash because when it came out, the Afro Latina community felt very.

[B]

I remember that.

[A]

Yeah. They felt very looked over and betrayed by the casting. And to his credit, Lynn came out and said, like, you're. You're absolutely right. We tried. This is an aspect where we failed you, and I'm very sorry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he's like, I can only try to do better in the future.

[B]

I remember that being really, like, a really tricky, tricky time for the movie too.

[A]

Yeah. And listen, we were also, like, fresh in Covid. Like, things were coming back, movies were coming back, but people were still very fraught.

[B]

We're all.

[A]

We're all still fraught. But tensions were high just for a lot of people. And anything could trigger anybody at any moment. And that was a legitimate concern. But it came with such a fervor where I was like, guys, these are people who came together to make a movie. No one involved is Donald Trump or Mitch McConnell. Please do not treat them with that kind of anger and like, pitchforks. Like, you can say very openly how upset you are, and that is totally fair. But do not call for their heads on a platter.

[B]

It's tricky, right, because it is a musical that has a lot of poc. It has a lot of representation. And it's tricky when that representation still isn't enough for me specifically, I'm not Afro. I'm not Afro Latina, I'm not Afro Latino. I'm just. I'm. What I'm what I am. And when I saw that movie musical, I felt represented in a lot of ways I had never seen. I had never seen, like Puerto Ricans feature, even Dominican featured in that way before. Like you said before, it's usually we're in gangs and we. We have to speak Spanish. So many auditions I get where I have to be Spanish and I have to speak Spanish in order to be Spanish. And I as an actor have never felt Spanish enough to play what I am. Yeah. And that musical, for me, again, it's not necessarily a musical where I have to be fluent. I have to be a certain thing. I can just be. So that's why it's tricky. Because for me, I totally saw my representation. But for the Afro Latino community, that wasn't the case. So how do you juggle both of those things? How do you make it representative for as many people as you can? I mean, while still trying to hold on to a version of the show of what you had in the past? I don't know. I don't know the answer.

[A]

So first of all, I want to say I also feel represented in. In the heights, just by the sheer ferocity of everybody in it. I'm like, I see fierce people on stage. I'm like, I see myself, but. But joking. But I talked about this before with the queer community and actually, before I even get into that. Let's take a break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean?

[B]

You're the top.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top.

[A]

You're a coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet. And we're back. So I find this with the queer community a lot, where anytime a queer story comes out, stage, film, tv, whatever, usually there's immediate happiness that we are getting one and then immediate criticism that it's not representing enough people in the community.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And no story can ever represent everybody. The hope is that you get enough stories over time that everyone gets covered at some point. But you don't realize that until you take a step back and look at the big picture. Now with musicals, especially Broadway musicals, you know, the unfortunate thing is that the Latin community is underrepresented it. So we. There just aren't a lot. And so there is this unfair microscope on in the heights of like. Well, it's not covering everything. It's like, well, first of all, nothing can. If it's a good story with well developed characters, that is the number one thing that matters. And then hopefully that story will inspire People to write more stories. That is how it's supposed to go. Like with Lynn saying, I love west side Story, but I didn't see myself or I didn't see people I knew in it, and I wanted to create something that did that.

[B]

Yeah. And he could also be in.

[A]

Absolutely. And he did. And now the hope is that someone watches in the Heights, likes it, and is inspired to write from it, saying, like, you know, I love in the Heights, but I didn't see myself on stage. I would love to see myself on stage. Here we go. I mean, even if you hated it and inspired you to write, like, no matter what, like, if it inspires you to create something, that's all that matters, Right? Because it's. The more stories we have, the more stories we have, and that story could be the thing that connects with somebody else.

[B]

Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like what I'm hearing is, like, the lack of representation can be almost seen as a tool or, like a sparking of creativity.

[A]

Lack of representation, for me, should be a motivator for people to create more representation. Not to sit and yell about it, because that.

[B]

Well, I think both can be true. As someone who is not a writer, I only. Well, maybe that's limiting myself. Maybe I should take it upon myself to create that work for myself when I don't see the right facets. But I still want people to feel comfortable using their voice.

[A]

Conversation, absolutely. When I talk about yelling, my high school health teacher, Mr. Sigona, said, when you start shouting, people stop listening. Conversations happen. And he was talking about that with, like, a relationship. Right. Like, the moment you start to yell, your partner's not going to listen to you anymore, because then they get. They either get on the defensive or they start to drown you out. And legitimate concerns and open, honest conversations are super helpful. But the moment you just go like, I hate it. Because this. I'm like, well, okay, what am I supposed to. To do about that? The show is made. It's up there, right? What can we do about it? Do we want to have another show made? Something that goes into a totally different direction? Because we can do that. What? Like, what. What. What can we do? What can. How can we keep moving forward? Because we can only keep moving forward. It's why I get mad when people try to look back on older shows and try to rewrite them. Like, some shows just can't be saved. Some shows are very much a product of their time. We let them, you know, sit in, you know, a glass box, and we look at Them. And we go, wow, how weird 1947 was. And some shows actually do manage to last longer than we ever would have thought. Some. And some shows find a way back over time because history does repeat itself.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

But if we try to take a show where it's like, well, I love five of these songs, can we just, you know, cut out all the stuff that's, you know, that's unfortunate about it so we can make it, you know, survive today? I'm like, no, I don't think we should. I think if the show makes you uncomfortable and you want it done, show the things that make you uncomfortable because it can show us how far we've come. Right. And if. And it also can be a litmus test for audiences because if you put in front of an audience again, and some people go, yikes at that moment. And then some people go, I don't see what the problem is.

[B]

It is. It is nice to see. I mean, you don't want to erase our. Our history. And it's. It is nice to know. Not nice, but it's interesting to see the shows where we've come from.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's not something that I would never, ever want to, like, demolish or abolish. There are shows that I agree with that maybe shouldn't be done or shouldn't be done by specific people. I don't think, like, you know, I don't think an all white high school production should do Miss Saigon. Or even wasn't there a production of in the Heights that Lyn got pretty peeved with? Probably that was like, an all white production of it.

[A]

Probably. I did. I used to intern at Music Theater International, and my first two summers I would write, I would respond to inquiries from people who were interested in doing MTI shows. And one school in Arizona asked if they said, we, our students really want to do Hairspray, but we don't have enough black students. And they go, can we do this where, like, the cast, the characters who are supposed to be black, like, are wearing, like, purple T shirts, and the cast who's supposed to be white characters wearing blue T shirts? And I wrote back, and I said, are you asking, is it illegal? I said, because technically speaking, it is not illegal to do that if you're not changing any of the words. I said, that is my technical answer.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then I said, however, I would like to ask you why you would want to do Hairspray if you don't have those students. Because I said, race is so important to the show. It's Part of.

[B]

It's in its DNA.

[A]

It's in the DNA. It's the identity of those characters. I said I would. I said, I really urge you. I said, I urge you to just not do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because there's so.

[B]

There's so many shows that are written for you for that. For the. For that school. It was a school, correct?

[A]

It was a school.

[B]

Yeah. There's so many shows. There's so many shows that they can do, and it sucks that they don't have enough black people that they could do Hairspray. That sucks. But the fact of the matter is, they don't. And they can go ahead and do Oklahoma.

[A]

It was one of those things where I was like, I'm so thrilled that your students love this show and would love to do it, but you. Sometimes you just can't have the thing you want because you don't have the resources. And maybe this is a moment to look at your school and go, okay, maybe this is a larger problem than we realize, and we should maybe expand the diversity of our student body.

[B]

How do you do that, though?

[A]

Because, for one, I have many ideas, and I'm not.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

I'm not gonna say a single one.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't. I have no idea, because I was.

[B]

Born in, like, West Palm beach, and, you know, I was. I was raised in a school where there was. Everyone was just white, you know, and I was. I was one of few people of color that was a part of that school. And they. That school definitely did productions of shows that they should not have done. And it's tricky. You know, it's hard to say, you know, expand your reach, try to get more people, but in a school that's predominantly dominated by not people of color, it's like, how do you. How do you do that?

[A]

Well, there's. There's just no overnight solution is. Is the number one thing. And I think that's what bothers a lot of people. Everybody wants some overnight solution. I mean, I can't speak to any other schools. I'll just say I'm in the New York City Gay Men's Chorus. And having a larger outreach into more diverse boroughs and. And trying to diversify more of the chorus has been something that they've really worked on the last couple of years. And it's tricky because they've been trying, and you could argue how much they've been trying or how successful they've been trying, but, like, sometimes people just are not interested. Sometimes there's just a long history of your organization or your school that has troubled those communities in the past and they've made. Made them wary of you and don't trust you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is. Which is fair and it's something. And we talked about this, you know, just now, about looking back at other shows and saying maybe we don't do the show anymore or like we acknowledge the things about the show that are troublesome. And you can't erase what happened. Right. You can't erase your past. You can't erase your fuck ups or your mistakes. You can acknowledge it and use that as incentive moving forward.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Right. How do. How do we use this to change our future? And some people don't think that's enough. But to quote the most in depth and nuanced Pasc and Paul score, it's never enough.

[B]

Which one is that?

[A]

Never enough.

[B]

Oh, my God. Is that the greatest Showman?

[A]

Sure is.

[B]

Which is, I think, coming to Broadway pretty soon.

[A]

Is it?

[B]

I know a little bit about it, but I can't speak to it because I know who is working on it. I know where it's being taken place.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I'm not gonna say anything more.

[A]

Okay. But Philippe knows things.

[B]

I know just a little bit. I'm not in it, but I know it's. I know something's coming, but also I want to tell you something. I did get you a present.

[A]

What?

[B]

Yeah. And I went downtown to get it.

[A]

Okay. He's reaching inside his bag.

[B]

Are you doing anything tonight?

[A]

Am I doing anything tonight?

[B]

Oh. Are you realizing the lyrics of what I'm saying?

[A]

You. You owe me a bottle of cold champagne.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So this is for you for inviting me on the show. Thank you so much, but I wanted to keep it within the spirit of in the Heights.

[A]

Are you calling me?

[B]

I don't know if you drink though, is the problem.

[A]

Oh, do I drink? Yes, I drink.

[B]

You have a cup right there you can put into.

[A]

Would you like a little bit as well, Philippe?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Great. Tyler.

[B]

Can we pop it?

[A]

I think we do.

[B]

You want to pop it or should I pop it?

[A]

You can pop my champagne.

[B]

Is this the first. Has anyone ever drank on the show with you?

[A]

Not for years. Can we get Philippe a cup, please? Bam. Oh, and he blew on it too.

[B]

Not on my white pants.

[A]

Guys, this is becoming a very sexual episode of Broadway Breakdown.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[A]

Thank you, Daddy.

[B]

You're welcome, sweetie.

[A]

I'm just surrounded by Daddy trying to get me drunk. We should probably talk more about the actual show. Yeah, more. We've been talking about, like Legacy We've been talking about the theme.

[B]

But speaking of, you know, champagne. I mean, this is a great way to segue back to it.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah. Champagne.

[B]

The bottles all sweaty and everything.

[A]

Sure is. And you got that gold shit off.

[B]

I did pretty easily.

[A]

Pretty easily. That is. That is some great stage business.

[B]

Two. Two. Off Broadway. To Broadway. L'. Chaim.

[A]

L'. Chaim. To being. I'm gonna keep it with me. Yeah. To being Daddies in Training.

[B]

So sweet. But you still think of me as.

[A]

A daddy, even though you're younger than me.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

You're welcome.

[B]

Yeah. In the Heights.

[A]

In the Heights, Yes. Okay. Favorite song in. In the Heights.

[B]

Me?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, God. So Paciencia y fe. It's pretty good. I don't know why. I mean, I'm a sucker for things that can make me cry.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because I love it. I love crying so much. And I love just feeling emotion. Especially in musical theater. Paste. And then the finale always gets me, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm a street light Tricking in the heat the world spins around. Whatever. I think that's the opening.

[A]

That's the opening. Yeah. But it's the same rhythm.

[B]

It's the same rhythm. And I also really love Carneval de Barrio. It's an amazing representation of everyone in that show. And I remember when I saw it, or when I was in it for the first time again, I wasn't really in touch with my culture at all. Granted. I mean, I would go to Puerto Rico every year for summer, but I wasn't that in touch with it. But doing that show immediately made me download Duolingo. And I bought Rosetta Stone.

[A]

I have Rosetta Stone. I need to get back in time.

[B]

I gave it up real quickly. And I still don't speak a lick of Spanish. But I tried to.

[A]

You did try.

[B]

A whole summer after doing in the Heights, I really wanted to be in touch with being Puerto Rican. And my dad was like, please. My biggest regret is not teaching you Spanish. You gotta learn it on your own.

[A]

And then you did the Bare Minimum. Did the bare minimum. Like a man.

[B]

Yo quiero Taco Bell is probably all I know. Oh, my God. Please hire me, Lynn.

[A]

So if we're talking, like, for me, in my life, objectively speaking, on a piece of musical theater writing, I think the opening number is as good as any opening number out there.

[B]

Yeah, it's great.

[A]

It's pretty fucking great. And introduces every major character except for Nina, but she is mentioned so we know that she exists. And because she's our other protagonist, she it's important that she kind of gets her own separate entrance after the opening. But I mean, otherwise, it's. It introduces every single character, sort of who they are. It's energetic, it's fun, it's funny. I mean, I guess the only thing is that it has.

[B]

It has like, a bit of I want for everybody. Just about every. Just about everybody. But for Lynn.

[A]

For Lynn, for Vanessa, we understand that, like, Benny wants to sort of do more, and there are a lot of details.

[B]

I was thinking about Benny's I want on my way here, and it was really hard, but I think I got it.

[A]

Which is.

[B]

Well, everyone's position, everyone's arc pertains to home and what they see and what they envision home being. And then I listen to the song that he sings to Nina, Benny, and he goes, everything's easier when you're home. And he just. He loves where he is, but for when he's around, he just wants her to be included in that because, I don't know, it's just lighter for him.

[A]

Well, so Benny has tangible goals. He wants to, you know, excel in his career, but he doesn't want to necessarily leave where he's at. He just wants to be successful.

[B]

I think he's a family man.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, no, he's definitely a boy you take home to papa.

[B]

Yeah, but not Kevin, because Kevin hates him.

[A]

Well, Kevin's racist.

[B]

Yeah, right. Yeah, just a little.

[A]

So fun fact, people.

[B]

Most Puerto Rico, but a lot of Puerto Ricans are.

[A]

Yeah, well, racism doesn't just mean white people. Like, anyone. Anyone can be racist. It's a bias.

[B]

I'm so ashamed sometimes when I go to Puerto Rico and you can just like how people in Puerto Rico speak about other people of color that aren't Puerto Rican.

[A]

Yeah, it.

[B]

It's so sad sometimes to hear, and it's like, that's where I'm from. And then, like, you go back and you just hear some of the things that people say.

[A]

It's just. Well, we were talking about. We were talking about Evita before we went on mic. And the thing about Evita in the country of Argentina, I don't know if it's like this anymore, but it definitely was like this when Ava Peron was alive. Was the lightness of your skin, not. Not just if you were Hispanic, but and were white passing, but like, if you were legitimately Caucasian, you were considered, like, far much the elite, because a lot of Argentinians come from European descent. So there are a lot of Caucasians in Argentina. And for A long time. That was sort of a class distinction. It's that sort of. They talk about that in Once on this island, which is a plot line that gets cut anytime white kids do it. But, you know, the lightness of your skin, you know, referring to your class system. So racism abounds with everybody, just like sexism abounds with everybody. Homophobia, like, no one is more homophobic than the queer community. Guys. Just putting it out there.

[B]

And it shows. And it shows with Kevin and Benny.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Mask for mask, honey. Fun fact. Did you know that there used to be a queer character in in the Heights?

[B]

Yes. It got cut, and I heard that it's being done in New York, New York.

[A]

The Lincoln character. Yeah.

[B]

Is that the. The drummer?

[A]

Yeah. So Lincoln. Lincoln in the Heights, in your early developments was Nina's brother, who was queer in the closet. And he was. There was like. There was a love triangle because he kind of was in love with Benny, and that got cut a few years.

[B]

And he was a musician, I think maybe.

[A]

Yes, I do think they repurposed the character of Lincoln for New York, New York, and then obviously made tweaks to it, because the character in New York, New York, it's Angel.

[B]

Is that the character's name?

[A]

I think so.

[B]

I saw. I saw, like, a few months ago, so I'm not too sure with the names.

[A]

Well, you saw it a few months ago, but you just got out at the curtain call yesterday.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

Because she's long. She's the long show. Oh, wait. Oh, you're right. Yeah. She's a long show. That's always. That's always been my joke. Anytime a friend has seen New York, New York, like, oh, I'm gonna go see it, and then I wait, like, nine hours after the curtain goes down. Oh, did you just get out?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I did. I loved it, but it was. It was long.

[A]

I did not love it, but it is a long show. But no. So I think the character's name is Angel. Sorry. I am Jewish, so I should be able to do that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

The Mordechais on Hell. That's good. Thank you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Duolingo.

[B]

So.

[A]

But, you know. So Lincoln was, like, originally a queer character that they eventually cut. I know that that's how Javier Munoz got in, was. He was auditioning for Lincoln and then, I think, ended up playing a different. Basically, Lincoln got repurposed into Sonny because there was no Sonny originally, because Lynn was. Was the original book writer. Right. It started as a project. He did sophomore Year at Wesleyan and was a musical he wrote there, and it was 90 minutes and very well received. And Tommy Kail was a Wesleyan alum at that point and among other Wesleyan alums, kind of came up to Lin and said, would you consider developing this as a full musical with the intention of it going to Broadway at some point? And Lin was like, oh, yeah. He's like, excuse you. I'll get fucked by a chainsaw for that.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

Yeah, that's a Heather's quote.

[B]

It's heavy.

[A]

Fuck me gently with a chain.

[B]

Just listen to that for the first time. Heather recently. Yeah.

[A]

Have you ever seen the movie, though?

[B]

I had seen the movie. That's with Winona, correct? Is.

[A]

It is Winona.

[B]

It is Winona. She is.

[A]

She is.

[B]

Heather is Winona. Yeah, I saw for the. I listened to the album for the first time maybe a month ago on a road trip, and I should have listened to it sooner.

[A]

Yeah, it's fun. She's poppy.

[B]

I love it. I love just musical theater like that. I wish it was a little bop on everything.

[A]

I wish it was a little darker, but the show's not as dark as I wanted to be. Because the movie's dark.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

I mean, it's. It's fun. It's similar to our color palette here. It's very bright, colorful, and then talking about getting by chainsaws. That is Heather's. Yes. So I think. Yes. I was originally leaning into my Barbie era, but I think my Barbie era is just Heather's color. Bright and colorful, but dark and twisted inside.

[B]

Yeah, I see that. For you.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm Heather.

[A]

I'm. God. I'm not Veronica. If ever I was anybody. Come on. I'm not any Heather. I'm not blonde or pretty enough to be Heather.

[B]

I'm a blonde. You're pretty. You're not blonde, but you're pretty.

[A]

I'm not pretty. I'm. No, no. I just have body dysmorphia. But it's fine. But that is gay to be. Have body dysmorphia.

[B]

Oh, for sure.

[A]

Yeah. You eat a single chip and you think the whole world can notice.

[B]

Well, you look great.

[A]

Thank you. You look great too, Kim.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

But. So we were talking about the opening and the Lincoln and all of that shit. But no, Benny comes in with his. With the details of. Benny is. He comes in. He gets his Milky Way at 8 in the morning, which is choice, but.

[B]

Yeah, but he.

[A]

But he has a bacon, egg and cheese. I know.

[B]

Ketchup and salt. And pepper, but.

[A]

And I have air because nothing tastes as good as skinny feels.

[B]

I love that. And no breaking your neck. Full respect.

[A]

Our paycheck. For real, though, I take a break.

[B]

From the wheel, and we'll throw the biggest block party.

[A]

Everybody here. It's a weekend where we can breathe.

[B]

Take it easy. Yo, mom, it's me. They added a character for the movie, too. The girl from Orange is the New Black.

[A]

Yes. Kuka.

[B]

Is that.

[A]

That's her character's name.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, they named her Kuka. Oh, I know. And she doesn't. She does absolutely nothing other than just like.

[B]

She just is there, and she has some of the lines.

[A]

They were like, we need a Peggy, and they made her Peggy because Daniela and Carla. Is that right? Yeah. They. They're the ladies who run the salon. And they added Kuka, but she doesn't bring anything, I'm pretty sure.

[B]

Correct me if I'm wrong, there is someone from Drag Race in the movie. Movie.

[A]

I think somebody who works in the salon or attends the salon was on Drag Race. I don't know who. Don't ask me.

[B]

And it was. It's a pretty popular person, possibly. Oh, Valentina.

[A]

Valentina. Yeah. Yeah. She's in the movie for, like, five seconds, I think. Yeah, Yeah, I forgot. I forgot about that. I've. That movie. I've seen it three times. Because for me, in movie musicals, I usually have to see them more than once to finally decide if I think it's good or not.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I tend to love most movie musicals the moment they come out.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm just so excited to have them.

[B]

What. Which ones don't you like?

[A]

Oh, a lot. I think a lot of the ones that came out in the last 20 years are bad or not as good as we thought they were.

[B]

I'm trying to, Like. I'm trying to think. I'm trying to think of the music movie musicals that have come out. So I think it's a perfect one, though, that perfectly encapsulates the. The musical very well. Is the producer's musical. The movie musical.

[A]

It captures what makes the show work, but I don't.

[B]

Just because of Nathan, just because of the people from the original show.

[A]

There's. There's. It's. I think the Producers movie is a. Objectively, a bad movie because they were so concerned about capturing what made the stage show work that they didn't think about making it work as a movie. I only say that again. I.

[B]

Because it already works as the Gene Wilder.

[A]

Yeah. You know, and they're both Very different. The stage show in the original movie, but the list is shorter of movie musicals of the last 25 years that work. Chicago is perfect.

[B]

It is perfect. I think it's better.

[A]

It's. It's different. For sure. I prefer the movie. Okay. I just saw the stage show again for the first time in years back in March, because Jinx Monsoon.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And my mom loves Jinx Monsoon.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we went to go see her and, you know, we went on a night where the cast gave a shit and it was a full house and everyone was respectful, which isn't. I'm sorry, that's not a mean thing to say. Everyone knows that, like, that cast of Chicago decides day to day whether they're going to give a shit or not.

[B]

It's. It's hard. Yeah. I'm sure being. I'm doing it. I mean, it is hard. Just baseline doing eight shows a week. But it, at the end of the day, is your job.

[A]

It. No. 1000%. And I talked about this with PJ Adsma as well.

[B]

Like, I saw that. I love that I care about your. There was a quote you said that I love.

[A]

Thank you. I said, I've seen people get too comfy too soon in the show. And he's like, but don't you want that? He's like, but keep giving the sauce. And I said, get comfortable in your life, not your art.

[B]

Yes. And I saw that. And I was a bit, like, scared when I first saw that you said that quote. Because I was like, oh, my God, I hope I don't do that. Like, I hope, like, as an art, you never want to be the type of artist, because we've all seen that. We go to Broadway shows and our biggest pet, at least mine, my biggest pet peeve is when someone goes off into the wing and you can see them die before they get off the stage. And I never want to see that. I never, like, granted, eight shows a week, it's fucking hard.

[A]

It's really hard.

[B]

But I still want to know that you're. That you're. That it's alive for you.

[A]

Chicago is a tricky thing because a lot of shows, when they start running for a very long time, become a machine. We saw this happen with Phantom. We see it. We see it happen with Wicked. Even with Wicked. Yeah. And, you know, you try to cast people who are special but also can do the thing. And when you're in a show, you really want to make it special for you, but at the end of the day, you are doing moves that were not tailored to you. You are making staging choices, blocking choices that were made years before you ever got there. And you have to work.

[B]

Assuming you're. You've been replacing.

[A]

Yes, exactly. So let's. For example, let's say you're. I don't know, like, you're Go to Hell, Kitty in Chicago, and you are the 20th go to hell, Kitty that's going into Chicago. That show has been running since 1996. Every creative decision made on that show was made 27 years ago. Yeah, they are. No one on that team has gone back to be like, let's freshen this up a bit. I also. I mean, I know for a fact that, you know, a lot of people not creative team would come in sporadically to give notes, like, every couple of years, really. I know Joe Mantello doesn't really go into Wicked anymore. Every now and then, he will. Like hell. Prince went into fandom, like, three times a year to give notes.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

Huge. Especially for a show that ran that long until he died. And then he was given notes till he died. But so, you know, you come in and you want to make it unique for you, but ultimately, all you can really do is go, okay, this is what I've been given. How can I justify this for myself? Yeah. The story I told this on, I think it was the spelling bee episode. Speaking of Evita, I think it was. And the money kept rolling in. Mandy Patinkin had to get from stage right to stage left at a certain moment, and he didn't know how to do it. And Evita was another show where, like, 90% of that show was blocked before that Broadway company got to it because it transferred from London. It was something that Patti talked about a lot. She was like, I hated being told what Elaine Page did.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And she was like, I tried to make it work for me. And so Mandy Patinkin, you know, in this moment in the show, he's like, I don't know how to get the stage left. And Mandy's young, and he's from Juilliard, and he's crazy, and he's hopped up on cocaine because it's 1979. It's what it was. That was the gatorade of the 70s was cocaine. And he's like, okay. I don't know. Like, I'm. Hal's not paying attention. Because Hal didn't really pay attention that much to actors in the rehearsal process. So he did, like, a big grand jete across the stage for a big. Fuck it.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Hal Prince was like, yeah, sure, keep it.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think that's my, My, my issue sometimes with transfers and then with replacing, I've been a part of. I'm, you know, I'm still starting in my career. I've only really been a part of. Sorry. You know what? Every production I have done has been a production where I am doing something that someone else has done.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Including Juliet. You know, I mean, they had a UK production, Aladdin, I originated the tour. But they Broadway production, then into the woods, they had their Fiasco production here.

[A]

At the Roundabout, which was a transfer from Fiasco.

[B]

Right. And while there always is a bit of leniency and you are allowed to be yourself and bring yourself to it, there is a sense where you have to. It is hard to get people to be surprised.

[A]

Yeah. It's so, I mean.

[B]

Meaning creative teams sometimes.

[A]

Yeah. And because sometimes when something just works, you're like, well, we can't change this because this works. But you're bringing a whole new batch of people in and you gotta be receptive to that. You're a different Frankie than the man who originated in London. And. But some. It's a balance. It's definitely a balance. But my point with Evita is, you know, Mandy does that Grand Chate. And then that became the staging forever. And all these chase were like, why am I.

[B]

What the fuck am I doing?

[A]

Yeah, why am I doing this? Yeah. And it's just because, well, Mandy did it. It's like, well, now I gotta do it. I wonder how that worked within the Heights, because that show was in development for so long and certain actors were part of it very early and roles were sort of tailored to them. But then people kind of came in later and you just wonder like, I mean, Chris Jackson basically is Benny. He. He was attached to that show since 2002. So he was a part of it for six years when it came to Broadway. And every Benny after that. There are things that no matter how hard they try, it's just a Chris Jackson thing.

[B]

It just lives in someone else's body more honestly than it does someone who comes and replaces.

[A]

Yeah. And, and, and, and certain roles just vocally speaking, will hit easier for certain actors than others. I mean, the. We're going all over the place, but that. Welcome to the pod. Dreamgirls is a musical which we talked about before recording. Also did workshops like Full on, like ad Living improv workshops with the cast and the creative team and Loretta Devine, who some of you will know from Grey's Anatomy. Icon that she has played, Laurel. Her voice back in the day was insane. Like, the notes she could hit just like, as if she were farting out in ass.

[B]

Yeah. It makes it harder for other people to come in and replace.

[A]

To the point, like, they actually had to lower some of Lorelle stuff later on because they realized, like, oh, not everyone is Loretta Divine.

[B]

And I just want to say that there is this connotation. And we were talking about Wicked too, and the pressure that it comes with being in Elphaba. But there is nothing, in my opinion, wrong with having to come in and, like, changing a key, changing notes, opting down. I don't know what it is, but, like, there is this. There's this thing in the theater community where it's like, oh, well, if you can't hit that note. Well, some people can't hit the note.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Some people can't do that. But as long as you're bringing the story, bringing the storytelling to it, in my opinion, as long as it's as honest as possible. Like, I don't care what you sound like.

[A]

No, you're not wrong. It's the prop, the reason why it's become such a thing. And I hate it. But I get it. Art is subjective, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, we could. We're sitting here saying nice things about in the Heights, and I haven't gotten to all of my notes yet, which I have them, but I also love to hear them. Well, I also want to talk about them in reference to the movie because I have a lot of issues with the movie.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

For everything. There are a couple things about the movie that I think are incredible. But then there's one big thing I.

[B]

Don'T like about the movie.

[A]

There are a lot of things I don't like about the movie. But one thing I will say about them, I think they cast the movie really well, but which is not.

[B]

They did. Yeah.

[A]

It. That is a very. I say that with a lot of meat behind it because I think there are a lot of movie musicals that are not cast super great. There are very few. Very few. There are very few movie musicals the last 25 years where I'm like, I don't really have a weak link in this cast. Chicago's one Room, like, perfect. Everyone in it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Fire. And I would. There's really nobody. There's one cast member in the movie version of in the Heights where it's not that they're bad. I just don't think that they're up to snuff of everyone else. And we'll get to that in a second. But it's also not this cast member's fault because they also. A lot of the meat of their material was cut.

[B]

Are you talking about Sonny?

[A]

No. Okay.

[B]

Because I know Sonny, the character from the movie to the musical. Or, sorry, reverse that. It's very different.

[A]

Is very different. A lot of his stuff is cut. But no, the actor playing Sonny is very good. It's. I'll stop beating around the bush. I will tease why, but I'll say, who? Nina. I think the actress playing Nina in the movie is not as dynamic as I would like her to be. She's a little reserved, sounds great, and is, you know, a beautiful individual. I would brush her hair if she asked me to. But also, a lot of her material is cut or given to other people. And that's another conversation blackout is what.

[B]

I can think about.

[A]

Yeah. The argument between her and. And Benny is given to Vanessa and Usnavi, which I like.

[B]

I like that moment, too, but I do miss.

[A]

Well, it's. It's. It's. You know, you build the head of the horse and the legs fall off. We're like, okay, you've. You have deepened the relationship between Usnavi and Vanessa, but you've now actually cut off the knees of the Benny, which.

[B]

I think in the musical was much deeper than the Vanessa Usnavi thing.

[A]

Oh, we will get to that. But how do we get here? We're talking about movie musicals. Oh, and storytelling and. Oh, and singing. So artist, objective. But people can objectively go, well, you hit that note, or you didn't hit that note. It's in the way. Like, you know, with sports, it's, well, so and so has a batting average or so and so ran this fast. Or, you know, you're the best at this in an objective way. And it's really hard to say what's the best in art. Right. And the truth is that, you know, nothing is, like, the best. And even things that can be objectively perfect maybe aren't as great as other things. Greatness is never perfect, in my opinion.

[B]

Yeah. I don't want to watch something perfect. No.

[A]

But. Well, the only thing that. There are very few things that are perfect that still give me, like, joy. Give me an adrenaline rush. Again, like, I mean, the Chicago movie, it's pretty perfect. There's one thing, and it's not a problem so much as I'm like, okay, they were on a budget. It's 2002, which is in the opening when Roxy and Fred Caselee are Running across the street and you see that subway car above them that's so clearly cgi.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

It looks like roller coaster tycoon.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

But I'm like, yeah, no, whatever. It's a budget. It's fine. It was. They had $5. But, you know, you watch these, like, compilation videos on YouTube. It's like, which Elphaba hit it best? And it's just because, you know, no one can say who acted it best, because there are people who work as actors who I do not like, who I do not find believable or exciting, but I know a lot of other people who do. Yeah, it's like, how can you argue?

[B]

There's never gonna be a finite answer that just. You can see that within the comments. Yeah. Everyone disagrees. And I think there's. It's. It sucks for the people who sometimes are in. In that position where they're being compared to the other person, but I think art is made for that. I think it is. There is a beautiful thing to the fact that there's many different people that can play the role, you know, And I think it is special that we can all. We can sit here and be like, well, is this person. How does this person compare to this person? Even though, like, there also is that shitty element to it too. Right. That we're comparing people to people, and that only makes us more insecure about what we do as artists.

[A]

Sure. I think comparisons are. They are unavoidable. They're always gonna happen, especially in something like theater, where just one role is gonna be played by a lot of different people. I think the healthy way to do it, where people maybe don't feel like shit, is rather than say, I like this person best, is saying, like, here's the energy that this person brought to this role that I really gravitate towards. Yeah, that's. But we. People don't love to say a ton of words. Right. We now live in the Twitter thread Sphere, where it's like 100 characters or less.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And even though brevity is the soul of wit, it's not necessarily the soul of insight. Oh, that's Owen on the T shirt. That's a new clip.

[B]

Everybody love it. Fuck.

[A]

Sometimes I say shit and I just go, oh, wow, we made a point today.

[B]

Did that fall out?

[A]

We're not talking about her. Oh, God, give me more champagne. I'm just gonna say all the things today.

[B]

Woo. Go for it.

[A]

Also, I love that we have Elaine right on the top of our pile right here.

[B]

Elaine Stritch.

[A]

Elaine Stritch. Still here. She's resting in power, that cunt.

[B]

Mm. I saw her one woman show years ago at Liberty. No, just the.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I wasn't there, but I've watched that video.

[A]

Yeah, it's great.

[B]

Perfect.

[A]

I mean, half of it are lies, but they're brilliant lies.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, that's what all theater is, right?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

We're all lying on stage in the Heights.

[A]

Total lie.

[B]

Yeah. Never happened.

[A]

None of it ever happened.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Vanessa. Don't know her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I also love. Okay. I also say the Act 1 finale of the club Into Blackout.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is an incredible finale as well.

[B]

It is. It's great.

[A]

It's so. Okay. Sorry. For anyone who doesn't know in the Heights, for anyone who is an uncultured fuck, Phillipe, what is in the Heights? What is she about?

[B]

It's hard. I mean, I think it's multiple people's interpretation of what home means to them. But, yeah, people. It's about in the Heights.

[A]

What's the plot, Baby, I don't know.

[B]

People ask me this question all the time. If you asked me for Ann Juliet, I couldn't tell you. It's about multiple people living in the Heights, all wanting to better their lives in some way.

[A]

So we have Usnavi, who does what?

[B]

Usnavi. He lives in a bodega. Or not lives in a bodega. He has a bodega. And he dreams of home, his version of home, which is the Dominican Republic. And I think a part of him wants to go back there and relive a port. He romanticizes home a lot, and he romanticizes his parents a lot. And I think he just, like, wants a piece of. Of his. His past.

[A]

Yeah. Come to fruition. Well, because he. In the show, he was not born there. His parents moved, I think, when.

[B]

No, I think mom was pregnant with him. Oh, right.

[A]

Because that's how he gets his name. Right.

[B]

Father said, usnavi will name. That's what will name the baby. So it's past tense. So. Yeah. So they didn't have him until they. Maybe she was pregnant with him.

[A]

Yeah, I think she was. I think Usnavi's mother was pregnant with him when they immigrated to America because they were passing by a ship, and on the side of the ship said, U.S. navy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the father saw that. He goes, oh, Usnavi will name baby that. It's a great joke in the movie. I think he's like, very young, like three or four. But because. Because Sonny was born there. But Was a baby when they immigrated. That's like a whole plot line. They added that Sunny is an illegal immigrant because he has a.

[B]

He has a fa. His father, too is Enrique Iglesias.

[A]

I think not. Enrique Iglesias. That would have been hot. No.

[B]

Fuck.

[A]

What's his face. He used to be married to Jennifer Lopez.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Mark Anthony.

[B]

Mark Anthony. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So his. So what is the idea that Sonny's parents came?

[A]

Yeah. So I think.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

This is one of my problems with the show is it's very vague about everyone's history with each other.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And everyone's ages as well. Like Nina, we know for a fact, is 19. She's just come back from her freshman year at Stanford. And through context clues, we get that Vanessa is a childhood friend. She's known Benny and Usnavi as well since she was a kid. How old Usnavi and Benny are is still up for debate.

[B]

I've always thought they were early 20s.

[A]

So. Yeah, I've always gotten. I've pictured it as Benny and Usnavi are probably like 22.

[B]

Yeah. In the movie they read a little older. I mean, even the musical, they all read a little older.

[A]

But the thing is, Nina, no matter what, nina still is 19 because she's come back from freshman year. So she always has to be 19. So everyone else's ages have to kind of be in relation to that.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

It's like maybe Vanessa's 20, 21. But I think Vanessa is supposed to be about Nina's age.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Because they talk about, you know, how they knew each other when they were kids. They make that joke where after Nomadica, which is another great number, I just. I love it so much. I will got. I gotta say, also, someone who fucks hard in the movie is Daphne Rubin Vega. She is.

[B]

Oh, which one?

[A]

She plays Daniela in the movie. Oh, yeah?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She pisses all over that soundstage.

[B]

Oh, she's great.

[A]

She's great.

[B]

We're all great.

[A]

I know, but I want to give credit to some people where it's due. Yeah. And it's do. It's due to Daphne or Daphne's due. Okay.

[B]

Tell me something I don't know.

[A]

A little off the top, a little off that side.

[B]

A little bit of news you've heard around the bar. Tell me something I don't know.

[A]

But when Nina announces at the. At the end of no Mediga that she dropped out of Stanford, there's a moment. It's not on the album, but it is in the show where they're like, that girl never flunked anything. And Danielle's like, well, she never even got a B. And Vanessa goes, she got a C in gym class once. And I had to talk her off the fire escape. Yeah. Which I'm like, okay, first of all, getting a C in gym class, that does not that bad. No one cares.

[B]

Pretty sure I got a C in gym class.

[A]

I got exempt from gym class because I went to Broadway Dance center once a week and I was like, that's my exercise.

[B]

Oh, that's kind of nice.

[A]

Yeah, it's one of the benefits of living in New York and going to bdc. Yeah.

[B]

Jealous. Listen, Florida versus New York, man. I'll take New York any day.

[A]

I mean, Philippe, one of us is on Broadway.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

But you never know it's true. You know, one day we do. So that was. Yeah. As I said, like, that's kind of one of my issues with the show is, is some of the backgrounds of everyone. It's a little murky and not, I'm sure to Kiara and Lynn. It is very defined. But it to those who do not have like Harry Potter index of like, background knowledge. Everybody. You watch the show and you're like, okay, wait, so what's. What's the relationship to so and so and so? It's something the movie tries to define a little. A little bit better. But of course, the. The problem with that is like, the more you then. The more information you get, the more questions you then have.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it is. It's for the best that the show makes it a little vague.

[B]

I think the one thing that I missed from the. The musical, going to the movie was how late they bring the lottery to the table. We don't find out about the lottery until. Which in this case is not in the first 20 minutes like it is in the musical. It's the very end where Abuela Claudia dies.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, so.

[A]

Okay. That's a whole thing. Okay, so let's talk about Abuela Claudia then. Because I will also say that's something that bothered a lot of friends of mine with the movie.

[B]

But it's weird because I still. Despite. Despite that change, there was still something about it that really worked. Like just the song in itself. Itself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The perform. Maybe it was the performance. It's.

[A]

Well, that's the power of music.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Lynn's score is so good. And it is. And it comes so much from the heart. My hot take is like, I think Hamilton is objectively a better piece of writing. It's Just. It's tighter, it's clearer. It's. It does a lot of really incredible things, but I prefer the score of in the Heights. I find it more exciting and. And again, the heart of it is just, like, so undeniable. But there are things in the movie that they change, that then just don't make sense anymore. So Abuela Claudia is, you know, like. Kind of like the neighborhood grandmother. Abuela is grandma.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

It's one of the first things we learn about her in the opening number. She's not really Usnavi's Abuela, but she practically raised him because Usnavi wasn't an orphan growing up. His parents, we are to understand, were alive, but they have died since then, and he's still relatively young. So, like, Abuela is the last parent piece of family he really feels like he has. And she also was sort of a. A semi grandma for Nina and the whole block and all of act one. She is just sort of presented as this very sweet woman, very kind, very caring. And we learn in 96,000 that Usnavi's bodega sold a winning ticket, and the winning ticket is $96,000. And everyone there's, you know, again, one of the most incredible numbers. It's so good in a very good, you know, Tony number. And it's actually one of the numbers in the movie that I think they fucking nailed.

[B]

They did.

[A]

They nailed that song.

[B]

Didn't change much either.

[A]

No, it's the. The writing is pretty much exactly the same. They cut Donald Trump and make it Tiger woods, which is, you know, that's bueno. Yeah. Chef's kiss.

[B]

Talk about abolishing history. But the.

[A]

Everyone's, you know, dreaming what they would do with $96,000. And then we go straight from that into passiance. Ife.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And there are two phrases that.

[B]

In the musical.

[A]

In the musical, yes. There are two number things that Abuela Claudia is known for saying in the show, which is passienci ife and alabanza. Alabanza. Part of the reason why one of the things they actually changed in the movie is she never says alabanza. She's never said it. And in fact. So when.

[B]

In.

[A]

In 96,000, you know, when they're talking about when it starts to build and Sunny starts to go 96,000. I never win. In the movie, it's different people as they're heading into the pool. But in the.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

And then in the musical, though, the first person Sunny says it to is Abuela Claudia. And the first thing she says, is I alabanza? And then it's to Danielle and Carla. No, Meadiga. And then to Vanessa. I never win shit.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I prefer that a. Because it still keeps it tight knit and the neighborhood and the community, Right. It's. It's as much as in the Heights as. As Washington Heights is this large part of Manhattan. We're still kind of really just dealing with this small block of people, right? And the. And all the people we know and everything they say connects to what we know about them. Daniela and Carla are known for. For the song Vanessa I Never. I also love the cadence of Karen Olivo's I Never Been Shit. Yeah, I never win. It's. Certain line deliveries on cast albums are.

[B]

But now you've got me thinking, is Abuela Claudia acting in that moment? I don't think by that point she would have known.

[A]

I don't think she knows that she won yet.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't think she knows because she's not in 96,000. I think she says, Ayala Bonza. And then she goes back into the building and then she discovers that she won.

[B]

Oh, so she. She bought it, hasn't scratched it yet.

[A]

Yeah, well, I don't think she's checked the numbers. I don't know. I don't know. The truth is, I don't know. I don't know. And this is one of those things where, like, the book of in the Heights has always kind of come under scrutiny. Even we were talking about this earlier when it opened and people loved it. Even the people who loved were like, listen, yeah, no, the book's not amazing. It's fine. But I think because the score is so dynamic and different, everyone wanted a book that matched it. And the book is just sort of, you know, it does the job story. It tells the story. It does the job. It gives. It gives you everybody's stories. But, like, no one's stories is all that compelling on a, like, dramatic level. It's more that you eventually just start caring about the people so you care about what happens to them. So even though their story is objective, you're not like, oh, what a fascinating turn of events. It's more sort of like, oh, I love Abuela Claudia. And so what we find out in Patience Yife, as she lets out a. The only way I can describe it is like, it's a diva number from the last character you ever would expect to have a diva number. The Summer's Hottest Day, which I love. It gives you a facet to a character that you have always Thought of as this one thing. And it's all culminating in the third act reveal of her song that she won. She has the winning ticket. And the. And the tragedy of it is, you know, she's lived this so. Such a hard life, and there's been a lot of joy. She's had to find joy in a lot of her life, but it's been very hard. And it's only in the third episode.

[B]

She hasn't had a lot of wins in her life.

[A]

Not. Not wins that American society would consider wins.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Wins that she has had to convince herself are wins. This is an objective win. And she's won.

[B]

She doesn't know what to do with it.

[A]

Yeah. It's because it's in the. It's in the third act of her life. She's so much older. Her mother's dead now. She has no other family, so she's. What do I do with it? Who do I. Do I keep the money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Spend the money.

[B]

I can't make anything now.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm so old now. Like, I can't start a business.

[B]

Not to say that, like, older. The older generation can't make things.

[A]

No. But also, it's 90, like, $96,000, especially in 2008. Like, it's. It's a good chunk of money. It's not so much money that, like, it's gonna. Yeah.

[B]

You're gonna be set for the rest of your life.

[A]

Yeah. She can't buy an apartment in Manhattan and be set. Like, it's. Who. Who knows?

[B]

She doesn't have to start something.

[A]

Exactly. But she's too old to really start something. Or at least for Abuela. For her life, she is too old to start something. Not that her age objectively is bad or anything like that, but for her life specifically, it's a little too late. And we know this to objectively be true because. Spoiler alert, she passes away 24 hours later because she also has a heart condition. It's hot. And she's not taking. Taking her medicine. And the movie, I forget how they.

[B]

Structure it, but from what I remember, they.

[A]

She. They passiante. Happens to be.

[B]

The lottery isn't, like, really that big of a thing.

[A]

It's not. It's not. Because they do 96,000 and then they never bring it up again.

[B]

Right. That's why. That's kind of what I was missing. And that lottery shapes a lot of people's storyline.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Moving forward. Like, it's the whole reason why Usnavi decides to leave. And then, like, yeah, because Pasianci Yifey.

[A]

Is moved into the blackout. In the movie, it happens after the club blackout number.

[B]

Okay. Oh, it's gonna happen, like, towards the very, very end.

[A]

Well, so Patience happens in the middle, and she dies at the end of Patience y Faye.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I don't believe they reveal that she won the lotto until the end. Yeah.

[B]

Or I'm pretty sure that's right.

[A]

Yeah. I don't. It's been a minute. One thing that did bother me about that song is that Lin did not change some of the lyrics for it, because the whole point of it is that she's. She loves to feed her birds. She loves to feed the birds. And the number is an inner monologue as she's feeding the birds. And it's a big beginning. Galore. Galore. A friend of mine who has worked on the show, he did not like how they did it in the movie because he's like, galore means, like, it's hot. Like, she's so hot. And it's a big, you know, bold declaration. And in the movie, they make it this soft little color Galore. And she goes into her dream number. I don't. That doesn't bother me so much. But it bothered him, and he's like, I've worked on the show.

[B]

Who is your friend? Gotcha.

[A]

We'll bleep that out. Just because I don't think he wants me to reveal that.

[B]

I never asked that question.

[A]

What I will say is, I have a lot of Broadway friends, and they do like to come to me with their hot takes. Because I'm sure you've seen this, like, online and publicly. It's all very, like, Handholdy. We love each other. We support each other, which is great. We love to support, but also we love to hold each other accountable. And, like, not having a positive reaction to somebody's work isn't a crime. And we know how hard it is and how vulnerable it is. So you want to be considerate, but you also don't want to lie when you have the opposite feeling of what you're saying publicly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I only say this because, like, I've had. When every time I do, like, an ask me anything on Instagram, people are like, are you concerned that you write reviews on Instagram or you have the podcast where you're pretty open? Like, are you concerned that's, like, going to get you in hot water? I'm like, no, because I'm. I try not to be a dick about it. And, like, everyone has opinions.

[B]

Yeah. You're allowed it for sure. I mean, you're allowed to speak your mind. And I think, again, we bringing it back to art and being art, being subjective.

[A]

Yeah. And I always know that it's just my opinion. And so I try to lead with that and understanding how difficult it is. I'm never like. It's never a Wendy Williams death to all of them. It's just. No, I just try to be.

[B]

That's the fun part about it. I feel like we've disagreed on a lot of things just from this conversation alone. And I think that's kind of like what's fun about.

[A]

I have no memory of you disagreeing with me once. So far, everything you said say, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Well, you disagreed with me saying, I'm not beautiful. You said, I am beautiful. That's Muriel's wedding. I'm beautiful. But no. So I say that because, you know, people in the community obviously, like, there are things that they don't like. And I know this because they will all come to me to be like, I didn't like this. Can I talk to you about it? I'm like, yeah, sure, half the things. But I think they always come to me thinking that I'm gonna be like, yes, it's garbage. And sometimes I'll be like, I actually like the thing.

[B]

I think that's great. It's like. It's not like you never want to be like a source of just hating something for the sake of it. I don't think that's what any of us want. I think speaking your mind is important to art, and saying the things that you respond to and don't respond to are equal.

[A]

Sometimes it's very fun to be bitchy, as we said with our carb denying Laura Osnes. But it's just more that. Like that. That's sort of like a fun bile to get out sometimes. But we never really stand by it. I prefer open, honest discussions about things we like and don't like. Because I think that's what ends up leading to better art. Because as an artist, when someone doesn't like something you do, it's a moment where you have to kind of sit and reflect and go, do they have a point? And if you think that they might, that's great. And you can use that in the future. If you think they don't have. If you think they are incorrect, you can stand further by your work and be more convinced of what you've done.

[B]

That's hard, especially as an artist. I think people have Very different views on how they take reviews or critiques or other people's opinions. And I'm still new and I'm still trying to figure out what it is that how I specifically take criticism. But I think at the baseline, as long as you're trusting what you're doing, and this sounds so, you know, hitchy, but, like, I think that's all that matters. Of course, other people's opinions matter, and they're valid and they can help inform your art moving forward. But if you disagree with it and stand true to what it is that you bring. Because, you know, again, I don't expect for what myself to do. For what I do on stage to be relevant to everybody.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And I don't want necessarily want it to be either.

[A]

Well, first of all, again, you know, we said this before. Name me a single person or work.

[B]

Of art that's universally liked.

[A]

Exactly. That's if the only thing people can agree that mayonnaise is white and bland. You know, so if everyone can agree that such and such is good, congratulations. You're the mayonnaise of art.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who the fuck wants that? I don't want to be 95% hated. I would like to have a larger number than that.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But, you know, and I think that's sort of. Criticism is hard to take. You have to be in a mindset for it. But I think the number one thing to recognize is before you get to any criticisms about you. And I've gotten some criticisms back, back when I still acted. I was told in a review that my averageness worked, which was, hey, that.

[B]

Is at least it worked.

[A]

But, but, but, but before that, they said his performance is colorless, but due to the characters around him, his averageness works. And I was like, okay, you're trying to, like, you're recognizing that you don't think I'm bad, but also you don't want to say I'm good. So it was one of those things from like.

[B]

But there's also a line, especially with reviews today, people. Sometimes it sounds. It just seems like people are trying to be mean.

[A]

Yeah, well, people. Well, because no journalism is dying. People need to be relevant. And so clickbait becomes the thing. And as a reviewer, it's like, well, how do I write the sound bite that people will share? It's, you know, Jesse Green's review for Bad Cinderella. What we all remember is his opening lines of that. He said, bring earplugs, bring eye plugs, and if you can, bring soul plugs, which. Which it's One of those things. Where is it accurate? I don't know, but we remember it and it's a little mean spirited. The other, I mean, the. The line I'll always remember is Brantley's opening review for Little Mermaid, which was loved the shoes, loathed the show because they were on wheelies. And he goes, okay, I exaggerate. I didn't love the shoes. And it's, it's bitchy, but it is memorable. And it's not an insightful criticism, but it is something to remember. But if you are receiving criticism, the first thing you have to check is, does this critic understand what it is I'm trying to do? Because if they don't understand it, like, if they're not on board with what it is I'm trying to get with, then everything else they say doesn't matter, even if it's positive. It's like, oh, like there's that book about the Follies process when they were making Follies called Everything Was Possible and they're out of town with it in Boston. And the critic in Boston who had loved Company hated Follies. And Sondheim wasn't bothered. He was like, he didn't even really get Company, but he loved it. He's like, yeah, that review meant nothing to me. He loved it, but he didn't understand the point of it. I was like, oh, okay. So it's interesting. Like, it works both ways, right? Like, a positive review can mean nothing. If you read and you're like, oh, I'm glad you liked it, but you didn't get it. But so first, you know, and especially when you're giving people criticism, make sure you know what it is the person's trying to accomplish. And then you go, okay, how did I feel about it? And does anything I say, positive or negative, help them trying to achieve what they're trying to achieve? Like, I've had friends in shows and afterwards we talk about it, and before, when they asked for my opinion, the first thing I ask is like, well, tell me about your. Your journey with it. Like, what is it that you. How did you feel about you today? How do you feel about the show? And then I can tell you what I thought because I'm only going off of, like, basic first impressions.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Which, you know, Internet doesn't love that. Again, they want the hundred characters or less.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But everyone has, you know, a journey. Everyone's the protagonist of their own story. And if you are coming in with something that's not beneficial to them, you are labeled as an antagonist. And there are, like, five people in this role that I want to be the antagonist towards, so I try to be insightful. Which brings us back to the Heights. Well, just in the sense that everyone's got a story and a journey, but. So Abuela Claudia has this story that we don't know about until we have Passianza, Yife. And we learn about her immigrating as a young girl with her mother and being a maid on the. On the Upper east side. And the anger she has in that song is so palpable, and you're. And you're a little taken aback by it until it's revealed that she has the winning ticket. And then it just sort of becomes, like, ticking bomb for the rest of the show of, like, okay, what's gonna. What's gonna come of this? I think what kind of makes it frustrating is it doesn't pay off as much as we hoped it would in the movie, honestly, in both. Because for who, though? She ends up. She decides to split the money with Sunny and Usnavi.

[B]

Usnavi. Yeah.

[A]

But then, spoiler alert, Abuela Claudia dies.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

We never really learn what happens with her share of the money. Usnavi offers it to Nina to help pay for college, and we'll get to the Nina of it all in a bit, but she rejects it. And so whatever happens to the money doesn't get revealed. And Usnavi decides he's going to use the money to go back to Puerto Rico. No, to doctor. Sorry, to doctor. Nina's family's from Puerto Rico. He goes. He wants to go back to the doctor, and it's only in the last three minutes that he ends up changing his mind. So that we just never really know what ends up what. What that money's going to end up going towards. Which doesn't.

[B]

It does. I don't know if it necessarily matters.

[A]

It doesn't. I'm just saying, like, as a. As a ticking bomb of this being a. A vital piece of plot line, it doesn't end up.

[B]

It was a tool to almost test Usnavi.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And his. I guess I don't want to say dedication to the heights, but his. Yeah, let's say dedication to the heights.

[A]

Dedication to the heights.

[B]

Sure. I mean, it was a chance for him to live out what he thought was his dream until he realizes that his dream was the streetlight, was the bodega, was the corner, was the fire hydrants, was summer in the city, which, in my opinion, sucks. And I don't know why everyone loves. But people love summer in the city. And so is Usnavi. And like, I think. I think to him, like, that's. He discovers, like, even though he's not going to where he thought home was for him, which is. He attributes. He equates doctor to his family. Even though Abuela Claudia isn't his true family, it's almost like his chosen family. Like, Nina's a part of that, Kevin's a part of that. Sonny literally is that. And so he was able to find home for him. Despite having half of 96,000 under his pocket to do with whatever he pleases, he still decides to stay where he is because that's where love is for him.

[A]

Yeah, that's the thing about the finale that I wish it was just a little bit longer because it is a very quick turn in the end. Makes sense.

[B]

The great, right?

[A]

The great comes down when they bring down the great. And it's. And it's a tribute to Abuela Claudia with paciant. And in that instant moment, that's what makes Usnavi change his mind, which is totally fair. We've. We've had those moments where, like, in. In an instant, we make a very big decision about ourselves. I. When I was watching it yesterday at the library and I was like, oh, shit, there's like three minutes left of the show. I was like, I forgot that this all comes together very quickly at the end, which is. It's not that I. That I think it's a flaw. I just wanted, like, two more minutes to tie. Yeah. Just a little bit more of everybody. It's one of those things where. And again, because that show is a lot of plot lines, some bigger than others, it does feel like not everything is wrapped up or something's wrapped up a little quickly. It. I don't know what I would do is the thing, like, I. I say this with nothing else to come forward with. That's why I'm very, like, half hearted about this critique. Because ultimately, like, the ending is very moving on a just emotional level. So it's more me. Me just kind of coming in with my microscope, being like, you want the epilogue?

[B]

You want. You want to know what happens? Well, maybe not that, but you want to see you. I mean, I see. I know what you're saying. I feel like you just want to see everything tied up a little more.

[A]

Okay, so I'll put it this way. This is how I'll describe it. And I say this because I know Lynn loves the show too. The ending of Les Mis Okay. Ultimately comes down to a final scene of Valjean, Cosette, and Marius. Right. Like, it's just the three of them. And it's.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's just a very intimate, not expansive, like, it's. It's a good chunk of time with the three of them, and it's wrapping up the main plot line of Valjean. Right. And it's. And it works emotionally. It works storytelling wise. And Fantine is sort of like hovering in the background and it gets that big final ending with all the ghosts doing the. Do you hear the people sing? Rousing anthem. And it reminds me a bit of in the Heights, where, like, it starts as this small, intimate moment that ends with everyone kind of singing together, but for some reason with me and Les Mis, like, I don't feel shortchanged by how it ends. Even though, like, for three hours we've had these, like, long journeys. And then it all kind of gets wrapped up with this letter with Valjean. But it's. I. I see parallels to the two, and I don't know why Les Mis. I have fewer notes about in that ending than I do within the Heights. I. I can't tell you. Don't ask me again. I need you to stop badgering me.

[B]

Yeah, I won't yell. Sorry.

[A]

But. But it's just. It's one of. And I. I don't know. I feel like it's a compliment to the show, though. We're like, it's not that I feel it's bad or even under baked. I just want a little more. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, how many times.

[B]

I think that is a compliment and you want more.

[A]

Yeah. How many times can you say that on a show? You're like, I just want, like, a couple more minutes.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Never. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But I think also because, like, I don't know, like, the Nina plotline for everything about it that I like. I also don't feel like it's as well defined as I want it to be. I actually do think it's better in the musical than it is in the movie. I don't know. The movie defines her journey better, but I like her journey more in the show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Does that make sense to you?

[B]

It does. I mean, she's someone who has to live up to these expectations put upon her by not only her parents, but the whole world. Even Benny, in the song that he sings, you were all gonna brag and say, we knew that's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everyone in the world thinks that she's gonna be this big hotshot and I don't know. That's a lot of pressure to put on someone who doesn't even know who they want to be yet.

[A]

Yeah. But she sings so high.

[B]

She does. And she's so pretty.

[A]

She's so pretty. We. We expect so much of our ingenues.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. If there's anything we've learned from Barbie. So we can talk about Nina now. I feel like the thing. I'll say. I feel like we've talked about the show in, like, pockets. In pockets throughout this whole episode, but, like, I'm trying to make sure that we, like, get in some of the dick.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Nina comes back from Stanford, her first year at Stanford, having dropped out because she lost her scholarship because her grades fell. And her grades fell because she was working two jobs to pay for things, because her. Her scholarships only covered so much. And she had too much pride to call up home and be like, I need more money, because she already knew how much her parents were working.

[B]

And they. I think part of her also knows that they would have given up everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And puts, I think, even more pressure.

[A]

On the problem because it's not. The problem isn't just my parents are working hard and I can't, you know, ask them to work harder. It's. She now has to become so successful to justify everything that everyone has given up and invested in her, and that's enough to make anyone crumble. And. And on top of that, leaving for Stanford. I mean, I don't know what her mindset was when she left for Stanford, but we are to believe that she left being pretty exceptional or exceptional for her community.

[B]

I buy that.

[A]

Yeah. And was probably confident in herself and who knows whether Stanford, like, you know, with her getting there, if she had the opportunity to study as much like, if she would have come up to snuff at all. Did you ever watch Gilmore Girls?

[B]

No.

[A]

I'm batting zero with you. Sorry. Well, no, but one thing I liked about Gilmore Girls is a tricky show, and I don't recommend the whole series, but the first season in particular, Alexis Bledel, the open. The, like, the big storytelling inciting incident of the pilot is that Alexis Bledel gets accepted to this very prestigious academy in Connecticut. And of course, you know, Lauren Graham can't afford it, so she goes to her parents, who she's estranged from, for the money, and they agree to it for the other strings. But once Alexis Bledel gets there, she actually starts to struggle a bit because she was the big fish in her small pond at her public school, and she Goes to this other school where everyone is smart and everyone has had all these advantages, and she. It takes her a minute to adjust, and she does eventually, and she succeeds. But, like, I. I appreciated that the show gave her that transition because that happens to a lot of people. And there's. And there's nothing wrong with failing. And also there's nothing wrong with having trouble transitioning.

[B]

And I think also they do, because we don't get to see any of it either. Yeah, we're told most of it. And most of the time I feel like I. I need more from that. But I feel like they do a really great job of letting me. Letting us know the context in which.

[A]

Oh, we got a lot of.

[B]

She lives in.

[A]

Yeah, we get a lot of details about it, which I appreciate. We learn, you know, that she was working the two jobs, she was struggling, she didn't have enough time to study, she wasn't failing. But, you know, with the scholarship, you do have to have a certain grade point average to keep it. So who knows if it was like.

[B]

I think I thought she was. Because I thought there was an instance where, like, she couldn't come back for a certain reason. I know that she lost her scholarship.

[A]

She lost. So, yeah, she lost her scholarship. And then I think she went on probation, and then she just. And so then she decided to go on leave of absence rather than continue to struggle. So she wasn't expelled. She didn't technically drop out, but I think she came back home with the intention of dropping out. The difference between that and the movie. The movie never implies that Nina struggled financially or academically. What the movie implies is that she got to Stanford and basically just encountered racism 24 7. Oh, and that was enough to make her go, fuck this. You know, she says, like, oh, my first week or there I got searched because my roommate lost her pearl necklace. And so they. They searched my dressers and all this stuff, which. That bothered me in a couple levels. One, I was like, well, first of all, yes, that's awful. But also, that's protocol for any college. When some. When your roommate's stuff goes missing, the first person they check is the roommate. In the same way where, like, when a woman goes missing, the first person they suspect is the husband.

[B]

Yeah. Boyfriend.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, I know you're very pretty, Nina, but also, like, you're not special in that respect. Like, racism does exist and it's Stanford, but, like, in that respect, that is protocol for.

[B]

You find. You find her other reasonings for leaving.

[A]

More interesting Well, I find her. Her reasonings in the musical, I find more interesting, for sure, because in the movie, the problems are not her, it's everyone else. She gets to Stanford and everyone else is the. The problem. And whereas in the musical, she questions if she's the problem. Was I actually ever smart? Was I actually ever good?

[B]

Am I capable of living up to.

[A]

Yeah, it's other people's expectations. It's so much already. Am I even worth that? And then I can't even. I can't maintain all the other place I have to spend.

[B]

And even in the musical, I really thought the racism thing was just there inherently, without even having mentioned it, because you go to Stanford, you're a person of color in the heights, having to, like, work your way. That's amazing, you know, So I kind of already felt that.

[A]

Well, she. Yeah, she talks about. In the show when she's talking to Benny. I think it's right before the when youn Home number. And she said, like, there's a whole new vocabulary out there. And he goes, such as what? She goes, well, weekend is a verb. And she goes, you know, it means to go to skiing at your cabin. She goes, and cabin means mansion. And she doesn't say it with anger. She kinds. She finds it funny. But, like, it's funny in the sense of, like, obviously it made her feel.

[B]

Like, imagine that life.

[A]

Yeah, it made her feel like, yeah, couldn't be us. Made her feel like when she was out there. But I think also maybe because she's thinking, it's not my life anymore. I can laugh at it. But, yeah, you can definitely tell that there she encountered it for sure. Also, just again, racism is everywhere. You. You. You encounter bias everywhere, whether you're a different ethnicity, gender, sexuality, religion. It just. It's everywhere. The radio plays old forgotten boleros I think of the days when this city was mine I remember the praise Hayteadoro te quiero the neighborhood waved and said.

[B]

Nina, be brave and you're gonna be fine. And maybe it's me but it all seems like lifetimes ago so what do.

[A]

I say to these faces that I used to know? Hey, I'm home.

[B]

They're not worried about me.

[A]

I think that Nina is not a dumb. Dumb about the world. And she, like, she talks about this with her parents. Like, what do you mean you have to work two jobs? She's like, it's expensive, right? She's like, every. It's not just this. It's not just the tuition. It's not just the dormitories. It's the books. And, like, not only that, like, she's living in California. It's going to be more expensive around Stanford to buy flag food.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And these are things that maybe she didn't think of at the time, but she got there and got a crash course in that reality very quickly. And she doesn't apologize for her decision to want to drop out when she talks to her parents. And she's very upfront about all the things that were difficult. And it's not a woe is me rather than like, I got a crash course in reality out there. She's like, let me tell you what I learned. Thinking that her parents are gonna be like, we get it. Let's recalibrate. But. And. But rather they go, no, no, you. This is what's gonna happen. Which brings. Which makes it tough in another respect for her. Right. Because it's you. You're sharing a vulnerable side of yourself to people you love and care about, who you know love and care about you, thinking they're gonna understand. And when they. Instead, rather than saying, we get it, let's figure it out, they go, no, we don't get it.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I think it's also easy when you're a parent, not that I am one. To want the best for your kid. And you hear Stanford, that's the best for my kid. We know how hard you've worked for this. We're not gonna let you give up just because of lack of resources, lack of money. I think from their perspective, they're like, well, anything we can do to help. We want the best for our kid, and we want you to succeed, and we want. We want to see you succeed. We made you. Yeah, it's so. Yeah, it's so easy for it.

[A]

Quite literally. We made you.

[B]

Quite literally.

[A]

Yeah. We cooked you in a lab, you dumb little bitch.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

You think you're gonna just drop out with us having a say in it?

[B]

No, it's too expensive.

[A]

I am Priscilla motherfucking Lopez. My child is not a failure.

[B]

A very sweet woman, I'll bet. Very kind.

[A]

Diana Morales. No. And that's sort of the tricky thing with parenting. Right? And we have been seeing this a lot more lately of, you know, you don't want to be a dictator. You don't want to be a helicopter parent. You want to be understanding, but also you don't want to be a pushover. It's like, how do I create a kid that is empathetic and smart and understanding, while also tough and. And a Fighter and a hard worker. And I. It's one of those things where Gretchen Rubin talked about this in the book the Happiness Project, where, like, she learned how to talk to her kids when they were younger. A little late in the game, but she figured it out better. There's no. There's no foolproof way to talk to children, but she learned better. Like, when her child is upset about something, she doesn't kowtow to them in the sense of like, I'm hungry and you're in the car. It's like, well, we're not gonna be home for another hour. So it's like, we can't just pull over and be like, okay, sweetie, you're hungry.

[B]

She tries to handle it logically.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like an adult.

[A]

Yeah. Well, she says it's what she said. The first thing she says is she repeats what her kids say to her back to them. She's like, I'm hungry. I understand you are hungry. It's like, here's the reality. We can't get out of the car right now. We, like, we're 45 minutes away from home, and dinner's gonna be soon after that. Like, I understand you're hungry. Do you think you can hold on? Like, just, like, I'm hungry, too. Can we just hang on for a little bit longer instead of being like, shut up, like, we're gonna eat later or anything like that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or like. Or, sweetie, yes, we'll get you food. And I do think.

[B]

Are you saying that there's not enough and this is not a writing critique? I think it's more just, like, flaws in being a parent. It seems to me that Kevin and Camila don't acknowledge her problem as much in the beginning as they.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As much as a parent, maybe.

[A]

Oh, I'm. No, this is. It's. No, it's good writing. The. The arguments they have are. Is actually one of the better. I think the Nina Camila.

[B]

Yeah, I think it fucking rocks.

[A]

Yeah, I think. I think those. That dynamic is great. It's. I'm. I'm more talking about this on a human level, like, as we talk about it as human beings. I think that their response is very realistic and justified. They're thrown a curveball. What do you mean? Everything we invested in and sacrificed for, you're giving up within five seconds. And not only. It's not only that she's leaving, it's that she went on leave of absence in March and it is now July. They are finding this out now. There's nothing. They. She's Told. She's telling them there's nothing you can do about it. Which is done. It's already done. I've done it.

[B]

And, you know, it goes back to Kevin's song. Feeling like, you know, not capable, not feeling useless, feeling not enough.

[A]

Yeah, that's. That's. That's the moment where he decides that he's going to sell the business.

[B]

It brings me to tears every time I see it because it's just like a. It's a parent who, like, wants to feel capable and wants to know that, like, they're leaving their legacy in good hands. Yeah. And that they can do everything that they can for their child. What's the last word? I will not be the reason my family won't succeed. Like, that's it. You know, he just wants his family to, like, live and prosperity.

[A]

Yeah. And when he gives up the business, when he sells it, you know, there's all this talk about. What about all of your employees? You called us all family. He's like, no, that is business. This is my family. He goes. And I'm. And I am sorry. This is a hard truth, but ultimately my daughter is what matters the most to me. And I'm sorry if that upsets anybody, but it is the truth. And now let's have some fun dinner. Yeah, it's. And I get that.

[B]

I do get it, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's. It's hard because, like, you're seen as the bad guy in that situation. But, like, he's just. It's his f. It's family. His family comes first.

[A]

Yeah. People want to. People overall want to be liked. They want to go where the love is, but there are just hard truths abound for all of us. Right. And. And I think it's something that Nina's struggling with, with her journey. And she's also 19. Heart. You know, fun fact. Her brain's not fully formed yet, which we. It's so weird to think about because we think of Nina as Mandy Gonzalez in the show. And Mandy Gonzalez was very clearly not 19.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I mean, everyone in that original principal company was way older than their character.

[B]

Late 20s, I'd say.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, I don't know. I'm just kidding.

[A]

I think Chris Jackson was 30, 32 when he did the show. Lynn was in his late 20s, Karen's late 20s, early 30s.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Mandy, I think, was 30. It's like, you know, and then they read older. I mean, they didn't read like, you know, like the Grease movie. 45 is playing 18 year olds, but they didn't read 1922. Right. And I think it's. They were all so good in their roles that I don't begrudge them. But I do think audiences who maybe had issues with some of the character storylines forget how young those characters are because the actors playing them did not read as young. And I. I think that's important to know. Same thing with last five years. You know, we think of Norbert, Leo Butts, and Sherry Renee Scott. Those characters are. Are, you know, 22 when they. Yeah, they're 22. When they meet.

[B]

I think they're 27 that I saw. They read a little older.

[A]

Yeah. No, they were both on their early 30s. I think when they did the show, though, those characters meet in their early 20s and. And divorce in their late 20s. I mean, he says in Moving Too Fast, he goes, I got all this in more before 24. Moving too fast happens when Jamie is 23.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

Yeah. And so no, best case scenario, it's 22 to 27. Maybe it's 21 to 26, who knows? But youth is definitely a factor in these roles. Most shows where characters are extraordinarily messy, the characters tend to be on the younger side. And you don't realize that because we tend to cast older actors. You know, isn't. I think Blanche is supposed to be 40 in streetcar, and she's the oldest character in that show by a mile.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, maybe.

[A]

Maybe 35. But, you know, like Carousel, everyone is, like, 20 years old. And that's important. That is important.

[B]

It's hard, too. I mean, today it's different. I know there was a question of, again, eight shows a week being really, really hard, and. But today it's different. Today I feel like you see all sorts of ages doing eight shows a week successfully. And I don't know how it was back then, 2008. I'm sure it was fine. But also, at the same time, I wonder if it makes sense to cast people because we know that Lynn's gonna be in the show. Right. Does it make more sense to cast the young people to look more like Lynn's age so it can all look even throughout? Or do we cast according to the actual legitimate age? I don't know. I think. An interesting question, and I feel. I like the way that they did it, because sometimes you can tell when things.

[A]

That's how Olga ended up becoming Abuela, because she was originally Camila in, I think, Connecticut when they did it at the Eugene o' Neill center, but they couldn't find an actress of the actual age of Abuela, who could sing the role. Because Patanze Fe is a bitch of a song. Yes, it is. And they eventually went to Olga and they were like, we know you're not. You're like 30 years too young for this, but if we put you in a wig, do you think you could do it? And she could. And so they tend to cast Abuela younger and then age her up because it's this. I do think that's something that maybe Lin in his youth did not realize. You know, a role of Abuela's age. Most women that age cannot sing past yance y fe with the vigor that you will want.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Their instrument is just not there in that respect anymore. I think Patti LuPone might be the only like 7 year old woman who could probably.

[B]

She's 70.

[A]

I think she might be 70 now.

[B]

She could have done it.

[A]

30, 40.

[B]

She's white, but she could have done it. But I'm weird. Like, maybe not weird, but like, I think today I am tired of seeing people who aren't Hispanic playing Hispanic roles. And, you know, because it's such a limited amount of representation that we get, especially like, even today, like, we talk about representation and there is, there is, and it's growing and it's getting better, but there's still, there's still groups of people that I couldn't, I couldn't tell you. Like, people of mixed race. Yeah, there's nothing for someone who is of mixed race. And people argue. I was like, you know, they can.

[A]

Play, they can play anything.

[B]

I'm like, but, you know, they shouldn't, they should have something that's representative of, of what it's like to be a little bit of this, a little bit of that, you know, because it's.

[A]

And it's just such a. Again, these things become conversations and nobody wants a conversation. They want a clean cut answer and they want an easy.

[B]

But it's not, it's great. And so is casting. I know. Well, and you're not allowed to ask what ethnicity you are when you're in an audition.

[A]

And then you. Well, then you go into like the revival territory and it's like, well, people want to just, you know, say, oh, it's the best person for the job. Which is totally true. But ethnicity is important because what you bring to the table is your life experience with it. And any role you cast with someone who might have been Caucasian the first time and cast with a non Caucasian actor this time, you have to ask yourself, what does this do to the dynamic of the show, and it can bring a whole wonderful new dynamic. But it is something you have to think about. It's color conscious, and we've seen it not work in the past because people just are going like, well, no, we don't see race. We just. We just. We cast the actor. I'm like, okay, but now you've created a dynamic. You've accidentally created a dynamic with these two characters in the show that is now incredibly problematic. So you actually did something you have to think about and ask yourself, what does this do with the text? In the same way where you do not cast a Jewish pretty boy like myself as Usnavi? Because that is just not the role. That is not the dynamic. I. Listen, I will absolutely be the one white bystander who just walks. I want to be, like, the white. One white person who just has no lines in the show and just walking around all the time being like, yeah.

[B]

There'S white people in the heights.

[A]

Sure. I want to be that one white person during Piragua who does not buy the Piragua.

[B]

What a dick.

[A]

Well, because I just have no cash on me.

[B]

Sure, sure, sure, sure. They don't have Venmo in 2013.

[A]

They don't. I only have my debit card. It's so difficult to get.

[B]

They don't have the QR codes yet.

[A]

Do you know how difficult it is being skinny and pretty? I only have my debit card.

[B]

I couldn't know.

[A]

Yes, you do.

[B]

You're on skinny, pretty.

[A]

I'm sorry. One of us was cast for our looks on Broadway, and one of us has a podcast where you famously don't show your face.

[B]

Oh, wait, this isn't.

[A]

No, we are filming it. No, we're filming it. Hi. Hi, Grandma. But not all of. Not all of this footage goes up on a podcast yet. This is. This content is for the socials and for the Patreon, which everyone subscribe to. The Patreon.

[B]

I will.

[A]

Patreon is different from OnlyFans, Philippe. Just so you know.

[B]

Nevermind.

[A]

Oh, on that note, let's take one last break.

[B]

Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[A]

How do you mean?

[B]

You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar.

[A]

You're the nimble thread of the. And we're back. Vanessa.

[B]

Yeah, she's a character. She's in it. No, I love Vanessa. Elevated train by my window doesn't faze me anymore. I know she wants to get out, and I know she's a fashion.

[A]

In the Fashion. The movie, they make her interested in fashion. She wants to be a fashion designer. I forgot about this.

[B]

Talk a little bit about what she does in the musical. She just does hair.

[A]

She just does hair. And it's something that I actually kind of like about her in the musical. So I forgot about this. In the stage show, she lives with her mom, and her mom's an alcoholic.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We never meet her.

[B]

Didn't know that.

[A]

Yeah. Because she has money in a box in her closet that she's gonna use for the down payment of her apartment. We're like, okay, sure, whatever. And what you find out before. It won't be long now in the musical is Con Edison's about to turn off the electricity in her apartment. Jokes on them. The power's about to cut anyway for everybody. But you find out it's because she gave the money to her mom to pay the Con Edison bill, and her mom drank it away.

[B]

I don't remember that.

[A]

Yeah. It's because it's not a. We never meet her mom. It's not a subject that's explored much. And it's one of those things where, like, it's one of the few moments of the show where you go, oh, this is kind of a heavier subject matter, but because it's in the Heinz, they actually still treat it kind of lightly because it happens off stage. And it's mostly spoken of through Daniela and Carla because Vanessa was going to ask Daniela for an advance of her paycheck. Daniela says, what is my rule? And Carla says, she'll support you, but not your mother's dysfunction. The joke originally is she goes, she won't support your mother's malfunction. And then Daniela goes, dysfunction, Carla. And then what ends up happening back to me now. Yes. And then this part does happen in the movie where Daniela ends up becoming the.

[B]

Not the guarantor.

[A]

Yeah, the guarantor on Vanessa's lease. Because Vanessa has shit credit. But Danielle, Daniela, has good credit. She's a business owner. She has a company and seems to pay her bills on time, which is why she's moving to the Bronx. Rather than lose her credit, she'd rather go someplace where the rent is cheaper and, you know, maintain. So she's her guarantor, which gets Vanessa the apartment. But that is why Vanessa wants to get out, is she wants away from her mom, but also, you know, possibly new neighborhood, new new start. But she has no other plans outside of that, which I think is.

[B]

That we know of.

[A]

That we know of. But Also think that's kind of realistic. Sometimes it's more about, like, I don't have. It's. You know, Charity Hope Valentine has that.

[B]

Line, sometimes it's time. Sometimes it's time for you to just be on your own.

[A]

Yeah. Well, and it's that line in Sweet Charity, and there's got to be something better than this. Charity's like, get me at it. Get me out. And they go, well, what can you do? She goes, I don't know. Just get me out, and I'll figure it out later.

[B]

Yeah, and that's a. That's a very typical trope in musical theater. Like, get me out. Like, get me out of here.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Get out of here. You know, it's like, very. What was that was supposed to be? Seymour and Little Show Horrors. You know, with the hat. We're both kind of rocking a Seymour, and we're both. Daddy, look.

[A]

We're both hot enough to play Seymour.

[B]

I know.

[A]

We're both models.

[B]

There we go.

[A]

We can play Nerdy on stage.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

You're playing Nerdy on stage.

[B]

Yeah. I would say he's. The role has changed so much. He used to be, like, really, really, like, geeky. Like, nerdy, nerdy, nerdy. And now I just want him to be, like, more grounded, but, like, I don't know.

[A]

You show your arms, though, in Act 2, don't you? They make you do that.

[B]

Oh, you mean this thing?

[A]

Yeah, he's showing. He's showing off the guns, ladies and gents.

[B]

Yeah, they're there. I mean, they definitely. There's a moment for him to become, like, a little more confident, but people.

[A]

Willing to take a big bite out of the Big Apple. Yeah, sure.

[B]

I don't know. For me, the anxiety is something that I've always wanted to, like, make. Make sure is represented.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Accurately in theater, but. Because, I mean, of course, we see a lot of it, but I always think there's. There's more room, people. I mean, we talked a little bit about, like, wanting to see ourselves on. On TV and on stage. And, like, that is something that I want to be done really, really well. I mean, we have, like, a little bit of it with Dear Evan Hansen, but I don't know why I'm talking.

[A]

About this right now, but with Dear Evan Hansen.

[B]

Yeah. You know, he's like. He's a guy who has, like, a little bit of anxiety, and it's.

[A]

Sure. And depression.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're very vague about it in the show.

[B]

Sure. And it's a hard thing to, like, do Tastefully.

[A]

I wonder if I'll. So. Oh, fun fact. So literally the last episode of this, I had said how difficult it was to find someone to cover in the Heights. And so then when I reached out to you and you were like, this is the one I want to do, I was like, ah. What?

[B]

Finally.

[A]

But it's so funny because literally the most recent episode I just said, like, I can't find anyone.

[B]

So I'm glad it worked.

[A]

It's so funny that I say that in the next episode is this one.

[B]

The elevated train by my window doesn't faze me anymore. The radic screams don't disrupt my dreams. It's a lullaby in its way. The elevated train drives everyone insane But I don't mind. Oh, no.

[A]

Her. I don't know. Her song is so interesting to me because it is. She's very specific about her environments, but she's very vague about what it is that she wants. Right. You know, Benny.

[B]

Benny's also like, a little bit like that too.

[A]

Yeah. He wants success and he's. He's Work. We understand. Like that he's expanding his knowledge and he's. And he's working hard at the.

[B]

At the 96, 000 is like a very telling song for everybody's.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Attention.

[A]

But.

[B]

Or dreams.

[A]

Yes, but always. Vanessa's dreams are always just like, I just got to get out of the neighborhood. I just. It's always just, get me out of here. I'll figure it out later. So it's. I do like that. It is that kind of vagueness. I do find that to be very realistic because a lot of people are that way about their goals in general. Things will be better once I do this thing or I go to this place.

[B]

Once I'm in a. I'm in a environment that is conducive to the. This. The lifestyle that I want to live, and then I'll find my own way.

[A]

Yeah. It's what's so. And the only reason I will say that that is kind of. I don't want to use the word toxic, but why that is a problem as a person is you think, oh, well, no, get. You know, move to a new environment and you change so much and it'll fall into place the moment I say, okay, think about this, like, as a relationship. The moment I. Once I finally have someone, I'll figure it all out later. That does not sound great. Does.

[B]

Doesn't sound great. But I also think they're two different things.

[A]

They are. In the sense that they're two different goals, but you're still harboring hope of change off of something that is not.

[B]

Actually because we don't. I mean, the reason why I say say it because when I think of like relationships, sometimes people go into a relationship thinking it's going to do something thing for them and they get into a relationship for the wrong reasons. I feel like ambition and wanting to leave your environment in hopes that it will. I mean, again, we don't know her true intentions. This is me just making it up. But leaving her environment, if we're just to say to be. Be in. Be in a different environment, that can help foster the path that she wants to take. Might be different than getting into a relationship just because I know relationships make.

[A]

Me happy, but I think that's true. Still with moving, because how many people do we know who move to LA or move Midwest?

[B]

Don't know what's gonna happen.

[A]

Yeah, And Vanessa doesn't really know what's gonna happen either. She just wants to move and she's going to West 4th street, literally, because it's as far away as possible.

[B]

Well, what do we also attribute to like, West 4th?

[A]

What do you mean?

[B]

I think.

[A]

I mean, at least for gay lifestyle, you think Vanessa's there to become an icon?

[B]

For sure, 100%. No, I think. I think she's there because at least when I'm there, there's. There's a life to it. There's. Not to say there's not life in the Heights, but like there's. There's a little bit of money to it too. There's. There's success even like the financial district. You go there and it's a different energy than it is uptown. And I think anyone who. Not anyone, but people who get out sometimes get. Want to get out for a specific reason. And I've always attributed it to her like wanting to better herself or like wanting to chase some sort of dream that is unspecific.

[A]

Well, sure, but I think everyone hopes to better themselves. And this is not me. Like, this is also. I should say this is not a critique of the show because I think it's very relatable her character and her journey and her and her kind of vague ambition. Because as I said, this is something that a lot of people have, but I think it's something to be cognizant of as a person watching the show. If you're like, oh my God, I'm such a finesse, I'm like, okay, but how good of a thing is that? Yeah, because every. It's you know, when people talk about I'm a Carrie, I'm a Samantha, I'm a Miranda, it's like every character, if they're well written, has flaws to them. So you have to be aware of the flaws. Even those who we aspire to be, we have to recognize the things about them that it's like, okay, but I have to make sure that this doesn't happen to me. If I'm gonna become the next Jonathan Groff, I need to not romanticize the past and say all my cast members were wonderful to everybody they ever met.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You know, so with Vanessa, she does aspire for more. And there is something very sweet about the idea of I just need to get to a new place and then I can start figuring it out after that. Yeah. Because there's. Because again, you think about, I'm stuck in a routine. I have to shift things up. And this is one thing I can do. I can't change my career right now. I don't know what it is I really want to do yet. I can't change my mom. She's who she's always going to be. I can't date somebody right now. Whatever. I can change the environment I live in.

[B]

And that's a, that's a huge thing in like even like self help books or like, you know, people talk about that all the time, starting there and then like, I think what I mean.

[A]

More about like comparing it to relationships is that alone does not fix it. No, it's, it, it's a change. It's something new. And congrats. You've, you've, you've made it onto the Monopoly board.

[B]

But it's an action.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it can help spark an insight into like the next few steps.

[A]

Sure. It's, it's also just for me, as I say this, being wary as someone who is always like, well, you know, once I get that, as long as fall into place. No, there's always.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, there's always work to be done.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you can also just make this. The cards stack up for you better than your original.

[B]

Certainly helps to know early on what it is that you're trying to achieve.

[A]

If you have any other kind of tangible goals in mind, which is, I do like that they give that for her in the movie. They develop the relationship between her and Usnavi in the movie more and they make them the central couple as opposed to Nina and Benny. The change they make to Nina and Benny in the movie that I do not like is they make, they make them A couple before she leaves for Stanford and she breaks up with Benny because she's got a focus on her studies and then. Or does he break up with her? No, he broke up with her because. Because he said, you got to go focus on Stanford. It's very Ryan Gosling to Emma Stone and Laura.

[B]

It puts a weird thing on it.

[A]

Yeah. Because it no longer becomes will they, won't they? There's no sexual tension that they've had. The thing it's about.

[B]

And that becomes about repairing it.

[A]

Yeah. Whereas in the show, there is this connection that they have that they haven't.

[B]

It's unspoken.

[A]

Yeah. And they haven't invested in it just yet. And so that kiss in Blackout is. We've been building up to it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's nice to see something form.

[A]

Yeah. And nothing like that happens in the movie. You know, Benny and Nina, nothing goes down with them. They also have a line in Carnival the Bario about how. Oh, we. We understand that you and Nina went for a role in the hay. In the movie they keep that line, but we never see that they've hooked up in the movie. So I'm like, that joke is lame. Whereas in the musical and act one ends with them making the out. Act two begins with Benny coming out on the fire escape and Nina coming out in his T shirt. And we're like, oh, we know.

[B]

Let's teach you some Spanish, baby. Yep.

[A]

Oh, it's. It's a. It's. It's a great. That's a great joke.

[B]

Yeah, it is.

[A]

When she comes out, first of all. So I saw it off Broadway at 37 Arts. That was the name of the place. They were off Broadway, right? Yeah, I saw it off Broadway and then I saw it right before they opened on Broadway. And the audience response was always three things. Benny comes. I'm sorry, four things. Benny comes out in his little tank top, little Chris Jackson tank top. And the audience was like. And then Nina came out in the T shirt and everyone just went, ooh. And then she says, do you want to try again? Yeah. And everyone's like, ahaha. He could. He couldn't do it. Oh, he couldn't. He couldn't get it.

[B]

Oh, that's not how I took it.

[A]

Oh, that.

[B]

I thought it was like round two.

[A]

Oh. Because when she says, do you want to try again? I don't think she says, do you want to do it again? She says, do you want to try it again?

[B]

Telling.

[A]

Yep. And everyone goes, oh, no, you couldn't do it. And then when she goes, okay, and then she begins the Spanish lesson. That's. That's the fourth joke. And everyone laughs at that more. And I'm like, every time, just like clockwork. Yeah, Everybody loves a good joke where a man can't get it up. It's so much fun.

[B]

Except the man.

[A]

Except the man. Well, I think we laugh because we're like, what's that life like?

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm ready to go every moment. And I don't see Paula shot eight times a week.

[B]

Never, ever understand what that's like.

[A]

He said that with so much emotion on his face. Listen, if I had to play opposite polish shot eight times a week, I would have no problem.

[B]

It's great, man. Having to, like, listen to him sing, serenade me every day. Yeah, he's beautiful.

[A]

He's.

[B]

And his voice is great too.

[A]

Yeah, I just. And he's got nice swoopy hair.

[B]

Yeah, he's very nice.

[A]

You sing with Stark too, right? In Act 2. Don't you do the boy band thing?

[B]

We do, yeah. We have a. But we don't have as much time on stage together as I would like because watching him do his thing, he's the most playful person on that stage.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I guess you spent all of act one saying to yourself watching Stark Pacian.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

I'm going to have my moment in act two. Yeah.

[B]

And then actually I'll rise out of the floor.

[A]

When the show was coming out there, like, the detractors for it were very like, oh, it's a try hard Rent, which is just what basic older white gays say when they want to seem intelligent. Right. Like, oh, it's the warmed over version of X. Wisely.

[B]

And I kind of see the similarities.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I also see the similarities with Hamilton and Rent. Hamilton and Les Mis. Sure. Every show has so.

[A]

So many musicals have shared DNA. There are some shows where I'm like, no, that is. You are trying to become the next this Try hard such and such. But within the Heights, I don't really get the Rent vibes. Only like, in a way it can seem like Rent because it's many characters in a neighborhood that is not overly populated by rich white women. And it is a sound.

[B]

Being gentrified.

[A]

Being gentrified.

[B]

Oh, that's not a Rent thing, is it?

[A]

I mean, kind of. That one is more sort of, you know, if we. If we pay our rent, then we are. And then they, you know, Benny wants to build that holds another. Benny wants to build that studio building where, you know, Rich Village.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. Where rich people can come and pay.

[B]

I think.

[A]

Yeah, it's, it's. No, it's East Village. Yeah. The idea is, you know, they are coming and we can either lean into it or we can fight against it and lose. And some people have.

[B]

Benny's kind of like the good guy in rent.

[A]

Is he?

[B]

I'm gonna let you live here rent free for a year and then you gotta pay your rent. Sorry. And they're like, you, Benny, we're not gonna pay our rent. You've changed. They're like, well, I just wanted to be like, married and like, have money. I still gave you rent for a fucking year.

[A]

Benny. Benny being the good guy in a way in Rent is like when people say, well, Ursula didn't really give Ariel a bad deal. She didn't lie about it. I'm like, yeah, that's how people get swindled. Like, Ursula did not lie. She just withheld a lot of information.

[B]

Yeah. It's like getting older and understanding the bad guys a little more.

[A]

Well, yeah, it's. Well. And just making you. Trying to get a little smart about it. Benny's. Benny's a dick. But he does offer them a solid deal.

[B]

That's what it is.

[A]

Yes. And on top of that, like being a landlord saying, hey, you got to pay rent. That's not, that's not evil.

[B]

Yeah, no.

[A]

And it's. Then you also get. It's trickier because like with Roger and Mark, they come from middle class suburbia and they are choosing to do this and they don't have any jobs to, you know, get money for.

[B]

And then they squat.

[A]

They squat. They're like, yeah, we're artists, man. But like, Roger writes a shitty song. Mark makes a 90 second silent film that's just clips of his friends. He takes videos of homeless people who actually are no. Destitute because the system is against them. So that's another issue for another day. We talked about this in the Rent episode already. No, in the Heights is also more joyful. And it's not as dank and depressed pressing as Rent is. And which is why, like, I don't. I don't find the combination, the similarities to really be accurate. But when Rent. Sorry, when in the Heights was off Broadway and moving to Broadway, there you can see it on On Broadway World. There are people who were paralleling it to Rent negatively. What's funny is that those same people probably hated Rent when it came out. So I'm like, what are we doing here?

[B]

I sometimes I listen to in the Heights or listen To Hamilton.

[A]

And I just.

[B]

It's. Some of it's so brilliant.

[A]

Yeah. No, first of all, he's a very smart dude. He's a very empathetic dude. He's very talented dude. Which is a trio that makes me just want to kill myself. He's on. He does a guest. He does a guest episode on Blank Check, which is movie podcast, and he talks about all that jazz and he's just such a fun guest. I'm like, God damn it, I'd love to have him on this and just like, geek out about a show. I feel like it'd be so much fun and could be snarky, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't want people on here if they're not going to be a little snarky.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it's. I mean, from what I can tell about this podcast already, it's. It's fostering a sense of honesty.

[A]

Yeah. Try.

[B]

Well, yeah, I think that's really good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, it's hard in theater to be truly honest about it.

[A]

I don't know. We're only on this earth for so long. Why. Why fucking lie if you can help it?

[B]

I just.

[A]

I don't. I don't know what the point of this podcast is anymore other than just like trying to have an open field for this kind of shit, because I don't think there's a lot of it. I think the podcast. I've listened to a few Broadway podcasts and I don't like most of them because they're either so fangirly and don't delve deep enough. I'm like, okay, I. No one benefits from full on fan service.

[B]

Yeah, you're right.

[A]

Let's like, let's investigate or. They are so snarky and actually kind of dumb because of the snark. Because everybody wants to. Everyone feels like the only way to seem smart is to find their problems with something or to make fun of the thing. And like. Well, actually now you're kind of showing a shallowness because you're not digging deeper into what this thing is about.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You just want to make the joke.

[B]

Yeah. Or like sometimes people just want to have the smart thing to say.

[A]

Yeah, too.

[B]

You know? You know, I just. I. I typically like it. A lot of things I typically like. I go to shows and I want. I want to feel that. I want to feel that.

[A]

You always want to like it.

[B]

Theater. But yeah, of course there are opinions. I always feel like, a bit tentative to share those opinions because you never know who's listening. And you. You, as someone who is a very. I don't want to say insecure actor, but as someone who is. Is like. Is precious about what they do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I always want to try to be careful with the things that I say. Not to. Not to hide it or not to praise people, not to do the opposite, but to also just take care of other people's feelings because I know how hard it is to do this thing.

[A]

I see what you're doing. That's literally the nomination you got, baby. The I see what you're doing award. No, it's all very difficult. And again, it's why when we talk about in the Heights and I talk about issues with it, with it that I have for something like this show, which is a show I do like, it's less of me being like, let me pick it apart. I know how difficult it is. That doesn't negate any issues I have with it. But the issues I have with it also don't make me go like, here's why I'm better than it. I'm. I think it's important to recognize the things we love and the flaws that they have because it's. They're. First of all, they're learning lessons as we go forward, making our own art, knowing that we're not going to make something perfect. If we're lucky, we can maybe make. And I.

[B]

And I doubt that Lynn thinks it's perfect either. No. Yeah. No.

[A]

That man is too smart to think that anything he's ever done.

[B]

I mean, and then he immediately went on. Not immediately, but he went on to create something that's just as good, if not better, in many different. In different ways.

[A]

Yeah. It's so fascinating to me that Hamilton blew up in the way it did post in the Heights, because, I mean, yes, again, I think it is a more mature and intelligent show in a lot of ways, but for that to kind of catch on the way that it did, it's because it did.

[B]

It's because of what it did. Not only. Not only. Not only that it was smart with writing and how it was directed, but the fact that it put people of color in the forefront in positions that they have never been since the creating of America was very nuts to see. I remember. I remember not just hearing about Hamilton, and I didn't hear about the music first. I didn't hear about the lyrics first and hear about anything. The first thing that I heard was, it's people of color playing Our Founding Fathers. Not our Founding Fathers, but, you know.

[A]

The people came well, some of them are Founding fathers.

[B]

Yes, some of them. And that, to me, was so interesting. And that's when I came to New York was, I think, the year or two after Hamilton had opened. And it was weird. Everyone was like, oh, my gosh, you're coming at New York at a perfect time. Hamilton's out, people of color are in. And I was like, that's a fucking weird thing to say. But it was true. For the first time, I was getting auditions for people. I wasn't. I was getting auditions for. For not people in gangs. Yeah. I was. I was allowed to play Seymour. I don't mean to sound pessimistic about it.

[A]

No. But I don't know what you mean. Because it. It. Because those words weren't coming from people of color. They were coming from white people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, oh, my God, how lucky are you?

[B]

And they were mad.

[A]

Yeah, they were mad.

[B]

They were like, oh, I can't get a job. Every. It's just everything's going to, like. Not us. I'm like, well, yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, they have.

[A]

You have to work a little harder and be a little more interesting. Sorry about it.

[B]

And it's gonna. And it's gonna balance itself.

[A]

Yes. Well. Yes. So I hate to bring it back to Barbie, but I don't. I'm really happy I get to bring back to Barbie. I was watching I cannot tell you, first of all, by the way, like, how excited and obsessed I am with this movie. And without having to tell. Yeah. But I was watching an interview with Margot Robbie and Greta Gerwig on Australian tv, and they were asking, oh, is Barbie feminist? And they took a moment and Margo said. She's like, no, the doll itself is very feminist. She's like, all you have to do is look at the history. She goes, but we're not talking about the doll right now. We're talking about the movie of Barbie. She goes, and it's very clear at the beginning of the movie that Barbie world or Barbie land is not equal. Feminism does not mean women are better. Feminism is equality. It's essentially being a humanist, right? It's. It's. It's. Men and women are of the same level. She goes, and in Barbie land, the Barbies have all the power and the Kents have none. She goes, that's not feminism. That's a dictatorship. And she goes, and.

[B]

And Barbie Land in the movie, Barbies have the power.

[A]

Yes. They have all the power, and they can't. And you see this in all the marketing, right? It's like she's everything. He's just Ken.

[B]

Yeah, we don't care about Ken.

[A]

Yeah, something like that. Yeah. And. And Ryan Gosling has the song I'm Just Ken. And again, I haven't seen. He has got, he's got a song. I haven't, I haven't heard it yet because they haven't released it yet. But I'm also. I have not seen any footage since the trailer that came out in May. Came out because I'm. I want to hold on to as much surprise as I can. But she's talked about that. She's like, yeah, it's. That is. There's no balance. She goes, and in a perfect world, in Barbie land, it would be balanced. Ken's would have jobs as well as the Barbies.

[B]

I know that they have. I know that Ryan Gosling's character, Ken has a bit of misogyny just based on a section of the trailer that I saw where he wants to. To talk to a real doctor.

[A]

Yeah. Well, yes. So as a man. Yes. He goes, well, he says, I'm. She goes, you can't. I won't let you do just one tracheotomy. But I'm a man, but not a doctor. Can I talk to a doctor? You are talking to a doctor. Yes. No, he has that misogyny. From what I understand from, from later that interview, when they, the, the, the shift that happens when they go to the real world, Barbie and Ken is. She is objectified for the first time and does. She doesn't have. And you see it in the trailer when they're roller skating along, rollerblading along Santa Barbara or whatever that is. She's like, why are these men looking at me? And she doesn't realize what it is, but they're objectifying her. And Ken realizes that he's being viewed more power. He's being viewed with respect for the first time. And so that is where. So you. I think we. Not knowing where that clip with the doctor comes into the movie. I feel like that's happening a little later in Ken's journey in the real, real world where he's realizing men have a lot more power here.

[B]

So we see in real time the misogyny. Yes, this is. Yes.

[A]

But so that is to say with, you know, diversity in theater and the arts in general. Yeah. Like when there is balance it and less of a pendulum swing, there will be less, I think, annoyance because I've also talked about this like a lot of casting and whatnot. Like people and you know, with theater companies that they look for, right. Producing new plays or new works. They are very much having an eye on diversity, which is great. But rather than going, is this work good? What does, what is the overall look of our season? They're just kind of looking at as a checklist. And also, diversity is not, is not just color. It's age, it's gender, it's sexuality, it's religion, it's all these size, size, size, it's ability. And we're having that conversation now to make it a larger landscape. But like, I've talked to someone about like my play and they're like, well, are you nervous about it getting produced? About it ever getting produced? Like, because you're, you're white? And I was like, well, yes. But I'm like, but my play is also about the dynamics of sexuality and modern day relationships and how that alters with sexuality. Like, if my play is very. Has a lot of queerness to it, I'm like, and believe it or not, queerness is still very much diverse. It's part of diversity because we're seeing this in the real world, you know, laws trying to come into pass that are debilitating us.

[B]

Stripping that away.

[A]

Yeah. And I'm like, why shouldn't we? Like the moment the theater world stops looking at queerness as an important factor to be spoken about that just will enable more things like this. We are just as important to the landscape of diversity as any other, you know, ethnicity or ability or size. And it's just about constantly thinking of all the scopes. Right. Not just that. So, like, I'll see a show where I'm like, yeah, no, there's more than just white people on stage. But everyone's a size too. Yeah, everyone is under 30. I'm like, that's not real diversity. And eventually when you just stop thinking about it and you can just have it all, that's wonderful. It's going to take a long time, but eventually you can have it all. What I love about in the Heights is it does have a sense of.

[B]

You're so good at bringing it back. Because I feel like I'm the one who's pulling us away. And you're so good at it.

[A]

This is. No, this is the opposite usually of how it works on the podcast. I'm usually like, let's talk about working girl. I'm the problem, you're the. Hi. It's you. You're the problem.

[B]

It's you.

[A]

So in the Heights, okay, no, no, but so in the Heights, like, yes, it is an only Latin cast. But it is of different genders, of different ages. You have the opportunity for different sizes, and I love that. Okay. Give me one song. And in the Heights we haven't talked about yet.

[B]

I mean, of course I want to talk about Sonny, because that's my guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Anytime I've ever done the show, I. I'm too old for it now. But those are the. That's the role that I played each time.

[A]

You could play it at the Muni, where the last row is nine miles away. Maybe. Maybe.

[B]

But I. At this point, I would want to be us. Navi. Sure. Like, that's the. That's the guy.

[A]

But that's the production where I get to be Patrick Page.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I could be the gentrified.

[B]

Call you in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The guy who doesn't pay for Piragua's.

[A]

The guy who doesn't pay for Piragua's.

[B]

You talk about that song, too.

[A]

Kicking out. Kicking out everybody with his laundry service. Yeah. Well, there's not much talk about Pierarga. Piagua is one of those beautiful spices of the show where it's like. It doesn't really contribute to the show in, like, terms of very.

[B]

It's almost like an inside joke.

[A]

Yeah. It's not, like economic storytelling. It's. We. We're.

[B]

We get happy every time we see him.

[A]

Yeah. We're a stage musical. We get a. You're granted a little bit of extra time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's only a minute and a half both times. And it's also, like, It's a positive spin because in act one, he's struggling. Mr. Softy's across the way, and no one wants a PCO in the. Get an ice cream. But during the blackout, Mr. Softy's truck has broken down, and everyone wants a pid agua. And this is where it's funny. But I'm also like, God damn it. Capitalism just gets everybody.

[B]

It's a comment. I mean, that's. He's.

[A]

He's in demand. And so he hikes up the price because he has to keep scraping by. And everybody wants a pidago. So first it was 75.

[B]

He hikes up the price when the softee machine breaks down.

[A]

Yeah. Once everyone's a pidagua. Got it. Also, every time I hear padagua, I just think of 30 Rock. When Alec Baldwin goes out with Salma Hayek and he talks to Tnfa, he goes. He goes, liz, we went out for paragua. Have you ever had a piragu before? It's just like a snow cone, except they call it a piragua. So hearing Alec Paula say piragua, it's just. That's a fetish of mine. But. So, yeah, no, he. When everything's gone to shit and everyone wants something cold and he's got the only thing because he doesn't rely on electricity. They all want it.

[B]

He's like, oh, nice block. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. He's like, here we go. He's like, now it's 550.

[B]

Mm. Here you go.

[A]

And I'm like. And again, that is something where I'm like, yeah, no, once. Once people get power, to quote Hedwig's mom, it corrupts. Absolute power corrupts.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I guess that's true. But he's nice about it, and he's fun, so we forgive him.

[A]

Yeah. I'll send you roses as I kick you out of your apartment with my gentrification.

[B]

Yeah. My God, this is sweet. You're welcome. I like daisies, but that's fine.

[A]

Daisies. Honey, Honey, no. Who are you, Meg Ryan and you've got mail?

[B]

I play Daisy in Mario Kart, so that's why I'm, like, very specific to the actual flower.

[A]

I keep forgetting Mario Kart exists.

[B]

That's a thing.

[A]

I don't play the games of video.

[B]

It's okay.

[A]

Is it?

[B]

No, but that's okay.

[A]

It's okay. I'm not Mask. I wish. I wish I were Mask.

[B]

Another life.

[A]

In another life, I'd be Mask.

[B]

Can we talk about. The reason why I want to talk about Sonny so much is. And I would love for you to disagree with me here. In my opinion, Sunny is, like, the only character who's, like, kind of in the moment.

[A]

In what way?

[B]

He's really happy with where he is, although he wants to change it and better it. Because with the 96,000, he would do everything that he can to give schools computers and, you know, he would. He would fight for all the right things for the community that he's in, but he wants. But he's happy. Sorry. He wants to foster his community. Not that he's happy with where he is. He wants to change, but he wants to. He wants to foster it. He wants it to grow and be the best version of the height that it can be. Because regardless of whether or not he was immigrated here or was born here, regardless of the movie or not, he. He. He loves his community. He loves his home, and he wants us Navi to see that as well.

[A]

Yeah, he's. Sunny is smarter than I think audiences realize. He is when he shows up. Right. Because he shows up late and he's.

[B]

He loves Nina and he keeps on creeping on her.

[A]

I also want to know what is his age?

[B]

Because I think he's like 15.

[A]

Okay. Because Nina's. That would make him four years older than him. Because she. We find out that she used to be his babysitter. Like, is it one of those things where, like, he was 11, she was 15.

[B]

I'm just guessing here, but I think he's like, 15. Yeah.

[A]

Because. Well, Robin Dejesu has played him on Broadway. And Robin, you know, also older than the role would. Would imply. Sonny is. He's. He is smart, he is capable. He fixes the refrigerator.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He fixes that. And he's very aware of the outside world. I mean, he's young, he's passionate, and he. And he's Wants to do more. He. As you said, he's the Only 1 in 96,000 who doesn't think about him himself. With what he would do with the money, he would invest it in bettering the community and making people fight. He has the line racism. Racism has gone from latent to blatant, which was true then, it's true now. Yeah. No, he's. Sunny, has so much potential. The only thing holding him back right now is just his youth. And that's not. And I mean that in every way, because when you're young, you don't know what you don't know. You haven't experienced what you haven't experienced. And your attention span is still kind of forming. You'll.

[B]

It's everywhere.

[A]

Passionate as he is, he can get distracted just like everybody else.

[B]

Yeah. But then again, he does take the money. And he is true to his word in a way. He takes the mut. Some of the money. And he invests in art.

[A]

Yeah. Which we love.

[B]

Which we love.

[A]

He invested in graffiti, Pete.

[B]

Yeah. I think. I think he is true to his word. And I, like, whenever I play Sonny, I always write a letter of, like, where. Because where he is at that time. And I've always imagined him as someone who is like, I don't. I don't. I don't think he comes from, like, the greatest family. Like.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I don't think his. His dad is super present. I think he lives with Abuela Claudia.

[A]

Yeah, we don't really. That's thing we don't know in the show.

[B]

We don't know the movie sometimes. I just made it up the movie.

[A]

We. We discover that his dad is alive and he lives with. With his dad. And his dad is kind of a deadbeat, but that's it.

[B]

But I think, you know, he. I imagine one day, like, he grows up to be, like, some political figure. That's something that I. I, like, dream for him. But, like, Sonny to me is. Is very close to my heart because it's the first character that I ever worked on.

[A]

Oh. I think Sonny becomes the youngest member of city council.

[B]

Yeah. I think, like, I really want him to succeed.

[A]

Yeah. I don't. And I feel like his journey is not gonna be the same as, like, Nina is going on a very specific journey that a lot of people understand.

[B]

Everyone's trying to get out.

[A]

Yeah. But, yeah, get out. While also staying true to their roots. Vanessa is the only one who truly wants away. There's that line Usnavi has. I'm running to make it home. And home is where Vanessa's running away from. No one else is really, like, I want to get out of.

[B]

But he's running away from. He's running to make it home to Dr. Well.

[A]

So, okay, so he is running away.

[B]

From the Heights, which is, like, we find out later at his home.

[A]

Yes. But Ustavi doesn't think he's running away. Usavi thinks he's running to something. Nobody thinks they're really running away. Everyone thinks they're running to something. Right. Vanessa thinks she's running to a better neighborhood, but she's actually running away from where her home is. Daniela and Carla, they're not running away, but they have to go to a new neighborhood because they can't afford the one they're running.

[B]

I feel like they wish they could stay.

[A]

They absolutely wish they could. Day. They are just being smart and. And realistic because as, like, the piaga, everyone's got to keep scraping by. Nina's not trying to run away from anything. In fact, I think one of the things that's holding Nina back is that she's so committed to her home. She thinks that she's. I think, in addition to all the other things with Nina that's going on. Right. Of, like, am I good enough? Is this too much for me? There's also the element of, like, if I go to Standard for another three years, like, am I going to become one of those yuppies who, like, says, weekend is a verb?

[B]

Right.

[A]

I don't want that. And she learns, along with a lot of other people, you can't take away where you're from, from you if it means something to you. Right. Like, I'm technically from New Jersey. That doesn't Mean shit to me, but I do love Cheesecake Factory.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

It's great.

[B]

Novel of a menu.

[A]

Exactly. And portions the size of my head, thank Jesus. But, you know, Usnavi realizes it in the literal term of what home means. Cause he's thinking that home is the Dominican Republic. And he realizes in that last moment when Graffiti Pete makes the mural for Abuela Claudia, home is where he's been this whole time.

[B]

And he starts seeing everything in a new way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's no longer choking in the heat. He's chilling in the heat.

[A]

Everything is making a little. Is. Everything is making sense in a different way now. There's a. There's a new filter on everything, and it gives him a new perspective on life and a new determination. Because until then, he's always been kind of a little flippity, floppity. Even how he is with Vanessa. He likes her and he wants to make a move, but he's a little passive. Yeah, he's a little too.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

He's like, I'm a gum. A nice guy. I would never be so bold. Why would I do that? That's for the leading man of a movie. And that's why.

[B]

So I'm reading this script analysis book. They talk about the inciting incident, and each character has their own version of, like, what it means to go from being passive to, like, then have something happen to them that challenges them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's why I like the lottery being so early in Usnavi's career or lifespan within the show, because it really challenges him. And then the play, you know, it doesn't. I'm trying to, like, figure out what. Or. Sorry. In the music movie musical, I can't figure out what it is the thing that challenges him in order to, like, decide that, no, this is my home.

[A]

Well, so in the movie, for. It's. Again, it's one of those, like, you build the head of the horse, the legs fall off. You know, they make the. They make the finale of the movie where he comes to the bodega, and Vanessa and Graffiti Pete and Sunny conspire together to make the whole bodega, basically, the Dominican Republic, with a little nod to Abuela in, like, the upper corner and.

[B]

Oh, that's right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They don't even do the.

[A]

They don't do. They don't do the Great. And also Usnavi's bodega.

[B]

Oh, that's right.

[A]

Yeah. Usnavi's bodega doesn't get ransacked. He's telling the story to his kids to his one kid and other neighborhood kids in the bodega. Which. That. That framing device bugs me because every time you watch it, knowing what the twist is, a lot of things about the framing device don't make sense anymore. Like him explaining who everyone in the neighborhood is and what's going on in the neighborhood when it's a neighborhood that those kids live in. I'm like, it's one thing if you're like, talking about the history, but he's not talking about the history. He's like. He's talking about Vanessa and Nina, like. And we see them like, in the end in the movie. Or I'm like, oh, so these kids know these people? What are we. What are we. What are we doing here? Yeah. Or like, you're. You must take the A train. I'm like, these. Yeah. Or there's a lot about the movie that bugs me.

[B]

Or maybe the kids, they don't know.

[A]

They don't know. I don't know. There's a lot about the movie that bugs me. I also have a problem with the visual vocabulary of that movie because every number is framed. Of like. I have a new idea of how to do this number rather than, like, here's the consistent like theme, the visualness of the movie. So, like, where Chicago is like, okay, it's. Every number has to be in Roxy's head.

[B]

Right. And. And it's taking place on a stage in front of an audience.

[A]

Exactly. And in. In a nightclub that Roxy knows. So it's always her fantasy of. I'm. Of like, how the world makes sense to me is a nightclub number.

[B]

Okay. And you think that in the movie it's different.

[A]

Yes. And in. In the Heights, there's no consistency. Everything is just sort of. This is. This would be cool.

[B]

Who directed it? Was it Rob? It wasn't Rob Marshall. Why did I think that?

[A]

Because he's done so many. Imagine.

[B]

He's done a lot of great ones, in my opinion.

[A]

He's done Chicago.

[B]

He did A Little Mermaid recently.

[A]

I haven't seen the new Little Mermaid.

[B]

So fucking good. And Lin Manuel and I love it.

[A]

I will see the new Little Mermaid at some point. It is the. The animated film is one of my favorites of all time.

[B]

Sure. That's what people say.

[A]

And. And the live action remakes so far for me have been all garbage.

[B]

The best one, the best live action.

[A]

That is. I'm sure that even if that's true, it's such a low.

[B]

Barry. Halle Berry.

[A]

No, it's Halle Bailey.

[B]

Halle Bailey.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Not to be confused with.

[A]

I know. I know. Because I. I think Halle Berry. And then I'm like, oh, it's the name. So I think Haley Berry. It's not Haley Berry. It's Halle Bailey is. I've heard she's lovely. I had to. I had to review the soundtrack and she sounds great. She. There are a couple things. I personally feel like she over sings, but it's not. I don't think that's her problem. That's me telling the music director, you can tell Hallie to soften up here because her voice is incredible. But I'm like, yeah, like the first two verses of part of your world should be more speak. Singing and then should build.

[B]

Is that. Is that based on what.

[A]

You know what I know. No, I've heard many versions of it. For me, it's. What. Of all the versions I've heard, I find that to be the most effective, especially in a movie where it's just more intimate when you're on stage, you can afford to be a little more. Sing. Sing. Yes. Me within the heights, though. So with that ending, it becomes about. You don't have to go to the Dominican Republic because we brought it to you. And that rather than showing him that his home has been here all along just by.

[B]

And it's almost like he's compensating still kind of.

[A]

Yeah. And like Abuela Claudia is the centerpiece of. Of the. Of the moment in the show. Right. That. That. That great. It's just her face and it's not graffiti. It's not sunny and graffiti people being like, how do we get Usnavi to stay? They're. They are legitimately just like, we want to create some art. And we do think. And we think Usnavi will appreciate this before he goes. It's not about getting him to stay and because it's not about getting him to stay and because it's something that just came from the heart that ultimately is what convinces him. Whereas in the movie, it's more sort of like, we want you to stay. We brought the Dominican Republic to you.

[B]

Isn't that.

[A]

That's how it came off to me, is that Vanessa wants him to stay.

[B]

Vanessa wants him to stay. For sure.

[A]

Yeah. And that's. And so. And you want to stay because she's the one who ends up getting Graffiti Pete to do in the movie. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, no. God, I don't like that. I don't remember that.

[A]

Yeah. Again, because I've seen it. No, but. But again, this is why me seeing it Three times is helpful because I can come back to these moments. She's. She's like, going down those steps. Graffiti Pete's spray painting. And, like, one of his rags gets on her shoe.

[B]

She wants to do something for Usnavi before he goes.

[A]

Yeah. And she sees it and inspires her. So she inspires. She inspires Graffiti Pete to make the thing. I think Sunny's part of that somehow. She has, like, outfits made of Graffiti Pete's, like, spray can rags when it's like. Like sunny.

[B]

And that's also another problem with the movies that they do take a little bit from Sunny to, like, make more room and Nina.

[A]

And Nina to make room for the.

[B]

Vanessa and Usnavi relationship, which, you know, maybe needed to be deepened a little bit, but I don't think it needed to be deepened in the sake of other people's story.

[A]

So. So much. Yeah, no, they deepen it so much that it's at the expense of everything else. Yeah. It makes the Nina Benny relationship less interesting. Makes the. I think all the changes they make for Nina less interesting.

[B]

Do you think it makes Usnavi and Vanessa's relationship less interesting as a result?

[A]

No, I think.

[B]

Or do you think it works for just them specifically?

[A]

I think Usnavi and Vanessa's relationship in the movie is interesting in the movie, but they've now made it the focal point of the movie when it never was in the show.

[B]

Yeah. When you actually look at the musical in a way, and it's almost as if. Yes, sure, of course we look at Usnavi as the lead of the show, but it is evenly distributed between characters.

[A]

I think that Usnavi. Okay, so I've seen two other productions of in the Heights that were not the Broadway run. I saw one at the Gallery Players in Brooklyn, which was a pretty. You know, they. They followed the formula of the Broadway production a lot of ways. When it's not Lin playing Usnavi, he doesn't feel like the lead. He feels like the linchpin that holds it all together. But, like, with Lin is. Lin is just such a charismatic presence. And also, it was a lot of people's first time seeing him on stage. It was a role that was just tailor made to him. That is him. And so. And that. That dynamic energy, it didn't. Not that, like, it. It didn't cast a shadow, but it altered the sort of the. The levels of how we felt about all those characters. It felt like Usnavi truly was the lead when it was Lin. I have not felt that about Another Usnavi since then, which is not a negative about another Usnavi. It just has felt more like an ensemble piece. Yes, exactly. And then the movie. Usnavi is the lead, but it's not because Anthony Ramos is just so dynamic. He's wonderful, but they just gave him more material and they gave Vanessa more material. Vanessa became the female lead over Nina.

[B]

Because when it's usually Nina versus Vanessa.

[A]

Yeah. I would argue in the stage show, if you. If you had to find two leads, it is Usnavi and it is Nina. They are the two protagonists of two very different storylines. But it all comes back to the idea of home. And then Benny and Vanessa are like the secondary leads with maybe Abuela, Claudia and Sunny after that. And the movie just feels like it's Usnavi and then Vanessa and then everyone else is like very secondary. And I don't think that was the intention, but that doesn't matter because that's what the result ended up being. And there are people who love the movie and think the movie's better, and I highly disagree with them. But people think that they've fixed a lot of stuff. I'm like, they fixed some Vanessa stuff and. Not that they didn't fix it. They deepened some Vanessa stuff at the expense of other shit.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Final thoughts on in the Heights.

[B]

In the Heights. Love it. Want the revival. I want to play with Snaavi.

[A]

Okay. If you could cut one song from in the Heights, what would it be?

[B]

I think it's a song that's already cut, but it breaks my heart to say, like, from the movie. Like, it's either. It is either an Ulti or enough. But I do think. But if I had to choose between them, it would be enough.

[A]

That's Camila's song.

[B]

Camila's song. Yeah. I mean, I think it could easily be done with text or monologue or. I mean, she's not even in the movie, which is a thing.

[A]

They killed that in the movie.

[B]

No. Which, you know, it still works, but.

[A]

Yeah, it's fine.

[B]

I missed her and I missed the song. There's not a song that I would cut, but if you forced me to. Yeah, I think I would cut that one.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. I would probably cut the same song, if I'm being honest. Just cuz act two, I'm like, let's. Let's. Let's get to the cool breezes, shall we?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How about that?

[A]

Philippe, this has been lovely.

[B]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

Thank you for having me.

[B]

Yeah. Thanks for going Deep.

[A]

If you want people to find you, where can they find you?

[B]

P H I L I P P E A R R O Y O. I should have put an symbol before that. But those letters is my Instagram is my TikTok.

[A]

You have TikTok?

[B]

Well, I don't have anything worth looking at, but it's a lot of Dungeons and Dragons shit on there. You don't need Instagram. Just go to the Instagram. Don't look at the TikTok.

[A]

Just go to the Instagram.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I say the same about me. I'm on Instagram at my cop. Like usual spelling. I now have threads.

[B]

I now have threads as well.

[A]

Yep. I've done.

[B]

Never gonna use it.

[A]

I've done two posts.

[B]

I've done one.

[A]

What was your one post?

[B]

It said something a lot like along the lines of, oh, wow, I'm now I get to be bad on Twitter or threads as well. Something, you know.

[A]

Yeah, all the people that I follow on threads, they all. Their first post was like, I'm here now.

[B]

Yeah, right. It's. I like the meme of someone saying, yeah, well, now I cannot figure out how to be creative on this one as well. Question my creativity. I just threads.

[A]

I could never do Twitter and I don't know if maybe threads will be.

[B]

I never looked at it.

[A]

We'll see. We'll see. I think I can maybe do some more interactions on that with like the podcast of like, hey, what? What do we want to see done? But I digress. Again on Instagram at Matt Copley. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, you can give us a nice five star rating or review. We got two new ratings and a new review. This one is actually from a few weeks ago, so I apologize for not reading it soon sooner, but cue the light in the piazza. Overture music. Five stars. Is wonderful. Is marvelous. I love this podcast. Living in Germany, I do not often have opportunities to see or discuss theater. Except Starlight Express, of course. Tear emoji. However, the insight that Matt gives every week makes me feel like I am there in New York City, watching. Wait, wait. I feel in there. New York City, watching. Watching. Okay, feels like I am there in New York City watching. End of sentence. Then in quotation marks is what I love to see, but with an S apostrophe. His commentary will make you laugh, smile, think and cry. And then they wrote something in German that I can't pronounce. I don't know. Duolingo. What? How does German work?

[B]

Oh, that means we love Matt.

[A]

That's exactly what it means.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know. Thank you for. Yes. Anding my German. Yeah, yeah, thank you for that.

[B]

You wrote that comment, right?

[A]

Yes, I absolutely. I absolutely wrote that.

[B]

You write your own comments?

[A]

Yeah, I create a million different accounts. If I. If I created accounts. Smart. If I created accounts to write reviews for this podcast, I would have 500 reviews on. On Apple. But unfortunately, I don't have the energy. Um, no, but we, we love getting reviews. We love getting five stars. I mean, if you don't like the podcast, you can. You know, here's the thing. If you don't like the podcast after listening to this and you want to give it one star, that is your right. I've gotten a couple of one stars, but I would prefer if you gave me one star to write a review because I want to know what it is. Yeah. I want to know what you don't like. Just, you know, without being crude. You don't have to say like, matt should kill himself because that's. That's for my grandma to say. But if you have issues with the podcast, you want to say it, say it, by all means. I love to hear about it. Philippe. We close out every episode in post with a Broadway diva. That'll play us out as we. As we finish out. Okay, who would you like to play us out for this episode?

[B]

Like I could just say a Broadway diva.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

His name.

[A]

Say her name.

[B]

Oh, God. And a singer.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, we just need audio to play out with.

[B]

I think the Broadway diva. I want to say in the studio spirit of Barbie is the person who sings Barbie girl. I don't know their name. Yeah, Aqua, Sure. Not a diva.

[A]

She's not Broadway though.

[B]

Nor is it Broadway. No, but. Okay, you know what? I'll go for Broadway.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Sorry, I don't like your choices.

[B]

Sorry. You see, I. Yes. And you. You don't. Yes.

[A]

And me.

[B]

Where's the reciprocity?

[A]

This is my house.

[B]

Okay. Man, I feel like I gotta do something. Bonnie Mulligan. She's great. She's great. Not to like.

[A]

What's not to like? She's a fucking Tony winner now. Her and Sean Hayes, baby. Yeah. So that's it for now. Join us next week for the last episode of the Big Move, which will be significant other with gunkle of the pod, Adam Ellsbury. So get ready for another three hour episode or I will cry. Yeah. And that's it. Thank you so much. Polite and take us over way, Bonnie.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

Bye.

[B]

Things keep getting prettier. What a wonderful life. Beautiful. Beautiful. Every mother.

[A]

Think it's.