Broadway Breakdown | JEKYLL & HYDE w/ Cooper Howell

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Cooper Howell
Release Date: October 17, 2024

Episode Overview

In this episode of Broadway Breakdown, host Matt Koplik welcomes theater professional Cooper Howell to take a deep dive into Frank Wildhorn’s cult musical, Jekyll & Hyde. True to the podcast's irreverent, passionate tone, Matt and Cooper dissect the show’s enduring legacy, memorable songs, infamous shortcomings, and campy appeal. The discussion weaves through personal anecdotes, critical analysis, and fan discourse, covering everything from the source material and Broadway production history to the book’s flaws, standout performances, and what makes the show beloved—and reviled—in equal measure.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The “Jekyll & Hyde” Phenomenon and Personal Encounters

[03:28-06:53]

Cooper’s Introduction: Growing up in Utah’s theater-obsessed culture, where “everyone was obsessed” with Jekyll & Hyde. He recalls friends nicknaming roles and the pivotal presence of the score in teen theater circles.
Matt’s NYC Perspective: Recalls ubiquitous posters, TV commercials, and theater camps where Jekyll & Hyde was a rite of passage, especially for self-identified “weird” theater kids.
Cult Popularity: The show’s fanbase developed before Broadway through cast recordings (predating YouTube bootlegs). As Matt notes, “It was a viral hit before viral was even a thing.”

“This is the show that if you’re not normal, you love.” – Matt Koplik [12:27]

Critical Reception and Commercial History

[06:53-08:44]

The original Broadway run (1997-2001) clocked nearly 1,600 performances but is infamous as the longest-running Broadway musical to lose money—a draw with persistent “mediocre to bad weeks” offset by brief upswings and stunt casting (e.g., David Hasselhoff, Sebastian Bach).
Critics were disdainful, feeling their opinions would not sway audiences drawn in by pre-established fandom:

“It has sold almost 300,000 copies. Like, this thing, like, has clout or at least has energy behind it.” – Matt [06:36]
“Karma’s a bitch. My karma’s watching you.” – Matt, mocking problematic replacement actors [08:11]

The Forbidden Broadway Effect

[14:32-17:39]

Matt reminisces on “Forbidden Broadway Cleans Up Its Act,” which mercilessly lampooned Jekyll & Hyde as “Phantom Lite”—a reputation that stuck.

“It’s Phantom Lite … Caffeine-free diet Phantom of the Opera.” – Cooper [17:34]
This satire frames much of how Jekyll & Hyde is perceived: bombastic, melodramatic, tuneful—but lacking the gravitas (or irony) of its predecessors.

Plot Deep-Dive and Thematic Problems

[18:19-27:43]

Cooper delivers a lively, slightly irreverent plot summary—emphasizing the show’s blend of pseudo-science, duality, “Victorian Diet Coke” moral debates, and the iconic love triangle (or lack thereof).
Both hosts riff on the show’s inability to create psychological complexity:

“It’s musical theatre’s version of sciencey-science.” – Matt [19:26] “Their characters are both very flat. Emma is purity. Lucy isn’t even sin—she’s just like a fallen angel who’s trying to rise up.” – Matt [64:42]

Source Material vs. Musical: What’s Lost in Translation?

[29:35-40:37]

Matt and Cooper discuss Robert Louis Stevenson’s novella and its numerous film adaptations. They note major departures in the musical:
- The addition of significant female roles was meant to neutralize any queer subtext and add romantic/sexual tension.
- The musical crafts a love triangle, but, as both argue, it’s dramatically weak: “It’s never a love triangle because Ivy is terrified of Hyde… the musical’s what made it kind of a love triangle, and in my opinion, a bad one at that.” – Matt [40:09]

Bops, Belters, and the Linda Eder Effect

[42:53-48:55 & throughout]

Belty Ballads: Both hosts celebrate the musical’s iconic songs—“Someone Like You,” “In His Eyes,” “Take Me As I Am,” “Confrontation,” and more—as irresistible, “shower belt” anthems with little dramatic consequence but huge vocal payoff.
Linda Eder’s Legacy:

“Linda Eder’s voice on the Jekyll and Hyde score is… it is unworldly how good she sounds.” – Matt [43:24]
“She has that type of voice where you feel so safe, because you know she’s going to give you the goods.” – Cooper [43:38]
These songs, however, mostly serve as plot-stopping vehicles for vocal fireworks (see "Eponine/Les Mis effect" on Lucy; [58:03]).

The Book Problem: Story Stops for Songs

[57:36-62:08]

The musical’s book is widely agreed to be weak, with characters—especially Lucy—existing primarily to deliver showstopping numbers, not to advance the plot.

“Every time Lucy sings, she stops the plot and there is no point to what she’s singing… you could take a red pen and just red pen her entire character plot, all of her songs, everything.” – Cooper [59:09]
The show foregrounds hits and “one-statement songs,” often with generic lyrics, while ignoring storytelling nuance.

Missed Nuance and Moral Simplicity

[74:51-82:20]

Matt and Cooper long for a version of the show embracing true psychological and moral ambiguity, with richer arcs for Emma and Lucy and less black-and-white moralizing.

“There is no nuance to it at all. It’s almost like a Star Wars level of, like, this is good and this is evil.” – Cooper [75:19]

“Murder, Murder” and Lyric Camp

[84:21-110:47]

“Murder, Murder,” the infamously goofy Act 2 opener, is dissected as both plot-dump and camp classic, emblematic of Leslie Bricusse’s much-mocked, rhyme-challenged lyrics:

“To kill outside St. Paul's requires a lot of balls.”
The score is riddled with such overwrought lines, fueling both parody and affectionate ridicule.

“Jekyll and Hyde has the same problem as Diana, where it’s like—is it camp or are you taking it seriously?” – Cooper [66:33]

Staging, Design, and Broadway vs. Pre-Broadway

[126:08-129:17]

The Broadway version’s design is praised for sleekness and stylized Gothic flair, which tonally works better than the bloated, self-serious tour version:

“Gothic horror meets Teen Vogue” – Matt [127:07]
“It is sleek, chic, and weak.” – Matt [159:51]
The infamous swap of “Bring on the Men” for “Good and Evil” is debated (with neither seen as dramatically effective).

The Wildhorn Discourse: Fans vs. “Snobs”

[140:22-143:35]

The podcast explores the perpetual battle between Wildhorn devotees and detractors, noting the composer’s skill for catchy, if wildly repetitive, pop melodies, but also lack of dramatic discipline:

“Frank Wildhorn is one of those hot button topics where you have the camp that loves him that is so nasty to the other side because ‘you elitists, you’re so up your own butt’...” – Matt [102:45]

If We Ran the Red Rat: How We’d Fix the Show

[123:05-125:42 & elsewhere]

Matt and Cooper brainstorm ways to streamline Jekyll & Hyde:
- Cut or significantly reduce Lucy’s role.
- Open with the engagement party, move to the board scene, then the self-experimentation.
- Clarify themes, add nuance to morality, and make the plot more coherent.
- Reimagine for camp or contemporary resonance.

“We just fixed Jekyll and Hyde. I love it. Frank Wildhorn, call us up!” – Matt [124:05]

The 2013 Revival & "Confrontation"

[150:33-153:26]

They discuss the much-derided 2013 Broadway revival (with Constantine Maroulis), the show’s failed attempt at slick projection-heavy modernization, and the “Confrontation” staging debate over the years.
Matt dismisses the idea that Jekyll & Hyde’s weaknesses can be fully masked by clever direction or aesthetic updates.

The “Pump and Dump” of Melodrama

[155:01-156:12]

Matt memorably likens the show’s structure to “lazy toxic top energy”—build-up with little payoff, a feverish spectacle followed by awkward aftermath:

“Jekyll & Hyde is lazy, toxic top energy. ... They edge you, and then in ‘Murder, Murder’ they make you come immediately — and then there’s still an hour left of Act Two.” – Matt [155:01]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Score’s Place in Pop Culture:
“It was like a viral hit before viral was even a thing.” – Cooper [05:51]
On Linda Eder:
“That is a sing. If you’re doing a production of Jekyll & Hyde, the people that are playing Jekyll, Hyde, and Lucy have to be just freaks of nature.” – Cooper [46:25]
On the Book’s Flaws:
“The plot stops so that someone can sing. … You could attach ‘Someone Like You’ to any character at any time.” – Cooper [58:03]
On Facades and Camp:
“They lean so heavily into melodrama… I think is what Jekyll & Hyde is. It's not actually a thriller, it's a soapy melodrama.” – Cooper [102:14]
On Fans vs. Critics:
“There’s a happy middle. Because Wildhorn has a gift for melody.” – Matt [103:14]
On the Enduring Appeal:
“...in spite of itself, you do get very excited.” – Cooper [157:15]

Timestamps for Key Segments

[00:44-03:28] – Cold Open, Introductions, and Episode Setup
[03:28-06:53] – Personal Jekyll & Hyde Histories and Cult Popularity
[06:53-08:44] – Broadway Run, Critics, and Stunt Casting
[14:32-17:39] – “Forbidden Broadway” and “Phantom Lite” Satire
[18:19-27:43] – Full Plot Recap & Skewering; The Love ‘Triangle’
[29:35-40:37] – Source Material vs. Broadway Musical
[42:53-48:55] – Ballads and Linda Eder; “Shower Belts”
[57:36-62:08] – The Book Problem: Plot Stops for Songs
[74:51-82:20] – Nuance and Morality, What’s Missing
[84:21-110:47] – “Murder, Murder,” Camp, and Lyric Problems
[126:08-129:17] – Tour vs. Broadway: Staging and Design
[140:22-143:35] – The Frank Wildhorn Discourse
[150:33-153:26] – The 2013 Revival and “Confrontation” Staging
[155:01-156:12] – “Pump and Dump” Melodrama Analogy
[157:24-162:16] – Final Grades and Brief Tony History
[173:01-End] – Outro; Invitations for Reviews, Socials, and Linda Eder Diva Sendoff

Takeaways & Final Thoughts

Jekyll & Hyde thrives as a camp curiosity and vocal showcase rather than a dramatically rewarding musical. Its enduring bops (especially as delivered by Linda Eder) and over-the-top melodrama ensure its place in the hearts (and showers) of theater nerds—if not in the pantheon of great Broadway writing.
The show’s flaws inspire both affectionate derision and critical frustration; both hosts agree that, with a streamlined plot and more willingness to lean into camp or subversive morality, it could be reimagined into something even more compelling.
Ultimately, as Cooper summarizes, “Nuance is important”—and that’s what Jekyll & Hyde sorely lacks, for all its pop opera thunder.

Closing Diva

The episode closes with Linda Eder in her Tony-belter prime, “good and evil and their merits” forever echoing in high belt as the hosts toast to the musical's campy, bumpy, melodious—if flawed—legacy.

[Show notes condensed and structured for both accessibility and theatrical flair. For deep-dive timestamps and more, follow @koplik on Instagram.]

Broadway Breakdown | JEKYLL & HYDE w/ Cooper Howell

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Cooper Howell
Release Date: October 17, 2024

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The “Jekyll & Hyde” Phenomenon and Personal Encounters

[03:28-06:53]

Cooper’s Introduction: Growing up in Utah’s theater-obsessed culture, where “everyone was obsessed” with Jekyll & Hyde. He recalls friends nicknaming roles and the pivotal presence of the score in teen theater circles.
Matt’s NYC Perspective: Recalls ubiquitous posters, TV commercials, and theater camps where Jekyll & Hyde was a rite of passage, especially for self-identified “weird” theater kids.
Cult Popularity: The show’s fanbase developed before Broadway through cast recordings (predating YouTube bootlegs). As Matt notes, “It was a viral hit before viral was even a thing.”

“This is the show that if you’re not normal, you love.” – Matt Koplik [12:27]

Critical Reception and Commercial History

[06:53-08:44]

The original Broadway run (1997-2001) clocked nearly 1,600 performances but is infamous as the longest-running Broadway musical to lose money—a draw with persistent “mediocre to bad weeks” offset by brief upswings and stunt casting (e.g., David Hasselhoff, Sebastian Bach).
Critics were disdainful, feeling their opinions would not sway audiences drawn in by pre-established fandom:

“It has sold almost 300,000 copies. Like, this thing, like, has clout or at least has energy behind it.” – Matt [06:36]
“Karma’s a bitch. My karma’s watching you.” – Matt, mocking problematic replacement actors [08:11]

The Forbidden Broadway Effect

[14:32-17:39]

Matt reminisces on “Forbidden Broadway Cleans Up Its Act,” which mercilessly lampooned Jekyll & Hyde as “Phantom Lite”—a reputation that stuck.

“It’s Phantom Lite … Caffeine-free diet Phantom of the Opera.” – Cooper [17:34]
This satire frames much of how Jekyll & Hyde is perceived: bombastic, melodramatic, tuneful—but lacking the gravitas (or irony) of its predecessors.

Plot Deep-Dive and Thematic Problems

[18:19-27:43]

Cooper delivers a lively, slightly irreverent plot summary—emphasizing the show’s blend of pseudo-science, duality, “Victorian Diet Coke” moral debates, and the iconic love triangle (or lack thereof).
Both hosts riff on the show’s inability to create psychological complexity:

“It’s musical theatre’s version of sciencey-science.” – Matt [19:26] “Their characters are both very flat. Emma is purity. Lucy isn’t even sin—she’s just like a fallen angel who’s trying to rise up.” – Matt [64:42]

Source Material vs. Musical: What’s Lost in Translation?

[29:35-40:37]

Matt and Cooper discuss Robert Louis Stevenson’s novella and its numerous film adaptations. They note major departures in the musical:
- The addition of significant female roles was meant to neutralize any queer subtext and add romantic/sexual tension.
- The musical crafts a love triangle, but, as both argue, it’s dramatically weak: “It’s never a love triangle because Ivy is terrified of Hyde… the musical’s what made it kind of a love triangle, and in my opinion, a bad one at that.” – Matt [40:09]

Bops, Belters, and the Linda Eder Effect

[42:53-48:55 & throughout]

Belty Ballads: Both hosts celebrate the musical’s iconic songs—“Someone Like You,” “In His Eyes,” “Take Me As I Am,” “Confrontation,” and more—as irresistible, “shower belt” anthems with little dramatic consequence but huge vocal payoff.
Linda Eder’s Legacy:

“Linda Eder’s voice on the Jekyll and Hyde score is… it is unworldly how good she sounds.” – Matt [43:24]
“She has that type of voice where you feel so safe, because you know she’s going to give you the goods.” – Cooper [43:38]
These songs, however, mostly serve as plot-stopping vehicles for vocal fireworks (see "Eponine/Les Mis effect" on Lucy; [58:03]).

The Book Problem: Story Stops for Songs

[57:36-62:08]

The musical’s book is widely agreed to be weak, with characters—especially Lucy—existing primarily to deliver showstopping numbers, not to advance the plot.

“Every time Lucy sings, she stops the plot and there is no point to what she’s singing… you could take a red pen and just red pen her entire character plot, all of her songs, everything.” – Cooper [59:09]
The show foregrounds hits and “one-statement songs,” often with generic lyrics, while ignoring storytelling nuance.

Missed Nuance and Moral Simplicity

[74:51-82:20]

Matt and Cooper long for a version of the show embracing true psychological and moral ambiguity, with richer arcs for Emma and Lucy and less black-and-white moralizing.

“There is no nuance to it at all. It’s almost like a Star Wars level of, like, this is good and this is evil.” – Cooper [75:19]

“Murder, Murder” and Lyric Camp

[84:21-110:47]

“Murder, Murder,” the infamously goofy Act 2 opener, is dissected as both plot-dump and camp classic, emblematic of Leslie Bricusse’s much-mocked, rhyme-challenged lyrics:

“To kill outside St. Paul's requires a lot of balls.”
The score is riddled with such overwrought lines, fueling both parody and affectionate ridicule.

“Jekyll and Hyde has the same problem as Diana, where it’s like—is it camp or are you taking it seriously?” – Cooper [66:33]

Staging, Design, and Broadway vs. Pre-Broadway

[126:08-129:17]

The Broadway version’s design is praised for sleekness and stylized Gothic flair, which tonally works better than the bloated, self-serious tour version:

“Gothic horror meets Teen Vogue” – Matt [127:07]
“It is sleek, chic, and weak.” – Matt [159:51]
The infamous swap of “Bring on the Men” for “Good and Evil” is debated (with neither seen as dramatically effective).

The Wildhorn Discourse: Fans vs. “Snobs”

[140:22-143:35]

The podcast explores the perpetual battle between Wildhorn devotees and detractors, noting the composer’s skill for catchy, if wildly repetitive, pop melodies, but also lack of dramatic discipline:

“Frank Wildhorn is one of those hot button topics where you have the camp that loves him that is so nasty to the other side because ‘you elitists, you’re so up your own butt’...” – Matt [102:45]

If We Ran the Red Rat: How We’d Fix the Show

[123:05-125:42 & elsewhere]

Matt and Cooper brainstorm ways to streamline Jekyll & Hyde:
- Cut or significantly reduce Lucy’s role.
- Open with the engagement party, move to the board scene, then the self-experimentation.
- Clarify themes, add nuance to morality, and make the plot more coherent.
- Reimagine for camp or contemporary resonance.

“We just fixed Jekyll and Hyde. I love it. Frank Wildhorn, call us up!” – Matt [124:05]

The 2013 Revival & "Confrontation"

[150:33-153:26]

They discuss the much-derided 2013 Broadway revival (with Constantine Maroulis), the show’s failed attempt at slick projection-heavy modernization, and the “Confrontation” staging debate over the years.
Matt dismisses the idea that Jekyll & Hyde’s weaknesses can be fully masked by clever direction or aesthetic updates.

The “Pump and Dump” of Melodrama

[155:01-156:12]

Matt memorably likens the show’s structure to “lazy toxic top energy”—build-up with little payoff, a feverish spectacle followed by awkward aftermath:

“Jekyll & Hyde is lazy, toxic top energy. ... They edge you, and then in ‘Murder, Murder’ they make you come immediately — and then there’s still an hour left of Act Two.” – Matt [155:01]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Score’s Place in Pop Culture:
“It was like a viral hit before viral was even a thing.” – Cooper [05:51]
On Linda Eder:
“That is a sing. If you’re doing a production of Jekyll & Hyde, the people that are playing Jekyll, Hyde, and Lucy have to be just freaks of nature.” – Cooper [46:25]
On the Book’s Flaws:
“The plot stops so that someone can sing. … You could attach ‘Someone Like You’ to any character at any time.” – Cooper [58:03]
On Facades and Camp:
“They lean so heavily into melodrama… I think is what Jekyll & Hyde is. It's not actually a thriller, it's a soapy melodrama.” – Cooper [102:14]
On Fans vs. Critics:
“There’s a happy middle. Because Wildhorn has a gift for melody.” – Matt [103:14]
On the Enduring Appeal:
“...in spite of itself, you do get very excited.” – Cooper [157:15]

Timestamps for Key Segments

[00:44-03:28] – Cold Open, Introductions, and Episode Setup
[03:28-06:53] – Personal Jekyll & Hyde Histories and Cult Popularity
[06:53-08:44] – Broadway Run, Critics, and Stunt Casting
[14:32-17:39] – “Forbidden Broadway” and “Phantom Lite” Satire
[18:19-27:43] – Full Plot Recap & Skewering; The Love ‘Triangle’
[29:35-40:37] – Source Material vs. Broadway Musical
[42:53-48:55] – Ballads and Linda Eder; “Shower Belts”
[57:36-62:08] – The Book Problem: Plot Stops for Songs
[74:51-82:20] – Nuance and Morality, What’s Missing
[84:21-110:47] – “Murder, Murder,” Camp, and Lyric Problems
[126:08-129:17] – Tour vs. Broadway: Staging and Design
[140:22-143:35] – The Frank Wildhorn Discourse
[150:33-153:26] – The 2013 Revival and “Confrontation” Staging
[155:01-156:12] – “Pump and Dump” Melodrama Analogy
[157:24-162:16] – Final Grades and Brief Tony History
[173:01-End] – Outro; Invitations for Reviews, Socials, and Linda Eder Diva Sendoff

Takeaways & Final Thoughts

Jekyll & Hyde thrives as a camp curiosity and vocal showcase rather than a dramatically rewarding musical. Its enduring bops (especially as delivered by Linda Eder) and over-the-top melodrama ensure its place in the hearts (and showers) of theater nerds—if not in the pantheon of great Broadway writing.
The show’s flaws inspire both affectionate derision and critical frustration; both hosts agree that, with a streamlined plot and more willingness to lean into camp or subversive morality, it could be reimagined into something even more compelling.
Ultimately, as Cooper summarizes, “Nuance is important”—and that’s what Jekyll & Hyde sorely lacks, for all its pop opera thunder.

Closing Diva

[Show notes condensed and structured for both accessibility and theatrical flair. For deep-dive timestamps and more, follow @koplik on Instagram.]

JEKYLL & HYDE w/ Cooper Howell

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Summary

Broadway Breakdown | JEKYLL & HYDE w/ Cooper Howell

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The “Jekyll & Hyde” Phenomenon and Personal Encounters

Critical Reception and Commercial History

The Forbidden Broadway Effect

Plot Deep-Dive and Thematic Problems

Source Material vs. Musical: What’s Lost in Translation?

Bops, Belters, and the Linda Eder Effect

The Book Problem: Story Stops for Songs

Missed Nuance and Moral Simplicity

“Murder, Murder” and Lyric Camp

Staging, Design, and Broadway vs. Pre-Broadway

The Wildhorn Discourse: Fans vs. “Snobs”

If We Ran the Red Rat: How We’d Fix the Show

The 2013 Revival & "Confrontation"

The “Pump and Dump” of Melodrama

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Key Segments

Takeaways & Final Thoughts

Closing Diva

Summary

Broadway Breakdown | JEKYLL & HYDE w/ Cooper Howell

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The “Jekyll & Hyde” Phenomenon and Personal Encounters

Critical Reception and Commercial History

The Forbidden Broadway Effect

Plot Deep-Dive and Thematic Problems

Source Material vs. Musical: What’s Lost in Translation?

Bops, Belters, and the Linda Eder Effect

The Book Problem: Story Stops for Songs

Missed Nuance and Moral Simplicity

“Murder, Murder” and Lyric Camp

Staging, Design, and Broadway vs. Pre-Broadway

The Wildhorn Discourse: Fans vs. “Snobs”

If We Ran the Red Rat: How We’d Fix the Show

The 2013 Revival & "Confrontation"

The “Pump and Dump” of Melodrama

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Key Segments

Takeaways & Final Thoughts

Closing Diva