LITTLE SHOP OF HORRORS w/ Sutton Lee Seymour

Summary

Broadway Breakdown: "Little Shop of Horrors" with Sutton Lee Seymour

Date: November 7, 2024
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Sutton Lee Seymour

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Overview

In this episode, Matt Koplik welcomes drag performer, theatre aficionado, and fan favorite Sutton Lee Seymour to discuss Little Shop of Horrors—its history, legacy, and continuing impact on Broadway and beyond. The pair deep-dive into Howard Ashman’s genius, the show’s bulletproof structure, issues of casting, musical details, and the enduring appeal of its blend of camp, sincerity, and pathos. Throughout, the two reflect on the vital lessons Little Shop offers artists and audiences, peppered with laugh-out-loud banter, personal anecdotes, and passionate (occasionally profane) opinions.

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Main Themes

• The brilliance and "bulletproof" structure of Little Shop of Horrors
• Howard Ashman’s legacy and collaborative genius
• The impact and evolution of camp, satire, and sincerity in musical theatre
• Casting debates: the “hot Seymour” controversy and definitive Audreys
• Differences between the stage musical and the 1986 film, especially the endings
• The importance of learning from failure and honoring off-Broadway roots
• The show’s ongoing influence on musical theatre—and why it’s considered "a perfect musical"

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Do Queer Audiences Love Broken Heroines? (02:12–05:00)

• Matt and Sutton ponder the gay community’s fascination with shows centering vulnerable, suffering heroines (e.g., Streetcar, Sunset Boulevard, Little Shop).
• Sutton suggests, “when we see them at their most vulnerable, we can celebrate them even stronger when we see them at their strongest.” (02:36)
• Matt references Judy Garland’s connection with gay fans as the ultimate survivor: “we honor the people who can keep the flame going no matter how battered or bruised they get.” (03:30)

2. The Genius of Howard Ashman (09:16–16:33)

• Matt and Sutton credit Ashman as the “captain of the ship” on all his collaborations, especially with Alan Menken.
• Jodi Benson quote: “Me and Alan were really good at speaking Howard.” (09:49)
• Sutton: “If you look at the works that he gave us, very little to few flaws in each show and movie... Little Shop of Horrors, in my mind, is a perfect musical.” (10:15)
• Sutton asserts, “There is absolute pathos in that show. And it’s the magic trick of it, because it’s a ridiculous piece, but it has moments that truly move you.” (10:56)
• They discuss Ashman’s commitment to humanity and satire: “He never spoke down to his characters, even when it was a satire. Which is why sometimes people take it at face value and play it the incorrect way.” (12:32)

3. Camp, Satire, and Sincerity (15:46–17:00; 31:06–32:36)

• Matt: “You have to play it honestly, otherwise the gut punch doesn’t happen.” (16:28)
• Discussion of why camp must be rooted in emotional truth, not just wild style.
• Little Shop’s Off-Broadway origins and intimacy: “There is an intimacy to an off-Broadway show that is camp and it works better. But if you bring it to a bigger scale... I don’t know if it would sell as well.” (31:56)
• Matt notes, “It’s hard to be knowingly camp opening cold on Broadway because you’re already part of the system in some ways. You can’t really buck the system when you’re charging $350 a ticket.” (31:06)

4. Summary and Structure of Little Shop of Horrors (45:52–47:28)

• Sutton and Matt jointly recount the plot: Skid Row; Seymour, Audrey, and Mushnik's run-down flower shop on hard times; the arrival of the mysterious plant; success, love, Faustian deals, and tragedy.

5. Why the Show Is "Perfect" (10:44–12:00 / 151:29–152:08)

• Little Shop has “not a wasted second,” is “bulletproof,” and combines comedy, drama, and sincerity.
• Sutton: “You need to hire good, smart actors that can play the honesty, play the sincerity, but will not just play the comedy. It’s funny because of the sincerity.” (175:41)
• “The show lives in its simplicity... You just need to know these two people, follow them, and you will be fine.” (153:57)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Ashman & Menken's Collaboration

“Me and Alan were really good at speaking Howard.”
—Jodi Benson quote via Matt Koplik (09:49)

On Ellen Greene as Audrey

“No. She is legitimately great in this. There’s a reason why her shadow is looming so large.” —Matt Koplik (11:00)

Debating the “Hot Seymour” Trend

“In this current production, it’s an opportunity for leading men to play dress up... It’s not bad. It’s still entertaining. But something is lost.”
—Matt Koplik (131:41)

On Why the Movie Needs a Different Ending

“You’re not watching [Seymour] lose himself. You’re watching him try to hold on to his humanity as things bigger than him keep happening. Whereas in the stage show, you’re watching him lose himself...”
—Matt (70:44)

The Power of Simplicity

“It lives in its simplicity.” —Sutton Lee Seymour (153:57)

On Legacy and Learning from Failure

“There is something to be said from owning when maybe you didn’t do your best work or did good work and made the mistake of doing something with it you shouldn’t have.”
—Matt (135:41)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Ashman & Queer Icons and the "Broken Heroine" Thesis: (02:12–05:00)
• Behind the Creation of Little Shop; Ashman's Process & Story Changes: (17:00–21:30)
• History & Plot Breakdown: (45:52–47:28)
• Deep Dive: Why the Endings Differ (Stage vs. Movie): (67:14–77:06)
• Camp, Satire, and Broadway vs. Off-Broadway: (31:06–32:36)
• Discussion: “Hot Seymour” and Casting: (124:23–132:11)
• What Makes a "Perfect" Musical: (172:55–174:34)
• Final Lessons, Off-Broadway’s Value & Ashman’s Legacy: (165:08–166:14)

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Fun & Banter Highlights

• Sutton describes her drag name and family connections to Little Shop (27:06)
• The pair riff on “Rent Again” and Team America’s “Lease” parody (04:35)
• Recounting puppetry obsession from Muppet Babies to Vicky Vox’s Audrey II in London (41:14)
• Forbidden Broadway tangents and love for parody (28:15–30:57)
• Sutton’s nightmare of being recognized at The Eagle, Matt’s hope his name is on a bathroom wall (00:43–01:53, 42:52)
• Matt’s trademark irreverence: “I would love to be in the front row of a musical one day... Anytime they do something really well with the orchestra, I go, good for you, you fucking whore.” (26:24)

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Key Takeaways & Insights

On Writing & Creation

• Ashman’s rewriting of the source film shows mastery of adaptation and purpose-driven pruning: “He wanted as few actors as possible... [so] Seymour had no mother. He’s an orphan, done.” (138:14)
• The musical’s structure, humor, and emotional core are intricately linked: “There is always that touch of humanity and that touch of satirical knowledge.” (15:30)
• “There are more great musicals than there are perfect ones. Little Shop is about as close to bulletproof as you can get.” (110:22)

On Commercial Success & Artistic Control

• “It doesn’t matter if you’re off-Broadway or on Broadway. You can have a success that springs so many things forward.” (165:08)
• Ashman’s refusal to move Little Shop to Broadway, despite commercial pressure, preserved the show’s spirit.

On Legacy and Influence

• Little Shop paved the way for shows like Bat Boy, Urinetown, and even the Disney renaissance—a direct outcome of Howard Ashman and Alan Menken’s creative partnership.
• The power of learning from failure, letting go of ego, and sticking to what works—even when powerful producers push for change.

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Recommended Listening & Viewing

• Howard (Disney+ documentary)
• Waking Sleeping Beauty (Disney+ documentary)
• 2015 City Center Little Shop with Ellen Greene & Jake Gyllenhaal (YouTube)
• Bootleg recordings of various Audreys & Seymours for performance contrasts (see Discord curation for links)

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Final Thoughts

Matt and Sutton agree: Little Shop of Horrors is not just a “perfect musical” in structure, music, and heart—it’s a masterclass in adaptation, humanity, and the delicate blend of sincerity and satire. Its legacy is seen in every oddball, offbeat, or anti-hero musical that dares to let losers and weirdos take center stage. Whether you love Ellen Greene’s singular Audrey, hate hot Seymours, or are a plant puppet purist, the show deserves its place in Broadway immortality.

“Keep it simple, stupid. And when in doubt, go back to a human experience, a human response.”—Matt (163:19)

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Outro Diva Request:
Sutton chooses Broadway’s Natalie Joy Johnson for the closing diva—a “niche choice” for a future-perfect Audrey.

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For more deep-dive Broadway history, passionate geekery, and four-letter words, follow Matt Koplik and Broadway Breakdown wherever you get your podcasts. Join the Discord for episode prep, debates, and plenty of gay nonsense!

Transcript

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Sa.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello, all you theater lovers both out in proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Grab Bag, and it is covering shows you submitted and I picked out of a bowl. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast. Podcast host. And with me today is a friend of the pod. Lover of the pod. You know her, you love her. If you go to the Eagle, she's known as Bianca Del Rio's slower sister. Please welcome to the podcast. Sutton Lee Seymour, Bianca Del Rio's slower sister. How dare you? I thought you were gonna object to the Eagle. Like, no one knows me at the Eagle.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

No, I don't want people to know me at the Eagle. That's the point of the Eagle.

[Matt Koplik]

Eagle.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Matt, I.

[Matt Koplik]

This is true. This is true. I don't want people to recognize me, but I want my name scribbled in the wall somewhere. Oh.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

That's how you know you've really made it in the gay community.

[Matt Koplik]

If you don't go to the Eagle, but your name is written down, it's like, oh, someone's tattooing the walls, wanting the world to know that you exist.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Tattooing the walls?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Not even. Just, like, not. It's like, not an etching, just a tattoo of Matt Koplik.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, it's ink.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Ah, I see. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But also, I don't know. I just recorded the Streetcar episode yesterday, so I have the perfume of language in my throat right now.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, a good old Tennessee Williams vernacular in you right now, huh?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, we do have another suffering heroine in this show.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, we do.

[Matt Koplik]

And we were talking about in Streetcar, how the gays really do love shows where we have a leading lady who has either a breakdown or an intimate, like, vulnerable moment. Like, we love our women to come on stage looking stunning yet broken and. And letting us into their psyche. Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

But I. I think when we see. The reason for that, I think is when we see them at their most vulnerable, we can celebrate them even stronger when we see them at their strongest.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure. Then also, I think that. Have you read the season by William Goldman? I read People.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I don't read books. No, I have not.

[Matt Koplik]

And there. Yeah, you actually would really like it. It's a. It's about the 67 to 68 Broadway season, and first of all, you read it and you're like, oh, everything old is new again. Because a lot of the things that are complained about in the Book are things that we're always complaining about. But he does talk. It opens with Judy Garland at the palace talking about sort of it's her final performance and all this other stuff and sort of breaking the whole thing down, but talking about her connection with homosexuals. And one of the things is that at that time, because this is two years before her death, she was viewed as like the ultimate survivor of just constant abuse and undermining and still kind of being able to come out on top. And how the queer community at that time and still are like, yeah, well, yeah, we related, we relate, and we honor the people who can keep the flame going no matter how battered or bruised they get.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

The sad thing is, like, a lot of the plays that we know and love, those heroines don't really make it on top at the end. Sunset, Streetcar Named Desire.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And that, I think, applies to this show as well.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Depending on which version you're watching, the stage show or the movie. Yeah. But I. Hot take. I do think that the movie version works for the movie.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I. I agree.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but we'll talk about that.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

We'll talk about that.

[Matt Koplik]

But a lot of people are like. And I'm like, well, actually, if there's a reason why the movie, why the original version doesn't fit with the movie, and it's not the reason that Frank Oz said, in my humble opinion. But that's all to say. Sutchin Lee Seymour.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Your name. Yes, is apropos today.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It is.

[Matt Koplik]

Because. What are we covering?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Rent? No, we are covering again. Again. Rent Again.

[Matt Koplik]

Wait, Whenever that fucking Broadway revival comes, that's got to be the tagline.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Rent again and its sequel. Mortgage.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. Or was it lease? Was that the one? Team America World, please.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

No, I thought that. Did they call it lent? No, no, I thought it was Lise. Lise. I don't remember.

[Matt Koplik]

Everyone has aids. Aids, aids.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I just listened to all three hours of your south park episode in preparation for this, and I realized you could watch that south park movie twice listening to it. So I cannot wait.

[Matt Koplik]

You sure could.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I cannot wait to break down this 1 hour and 20 minute musical with you this afternoon.

[Matt Koplik]

How dare you? It's two hours. It's a two hour musical.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

All right.

[Matt Koplik]

Hour and 50.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Hour and 50, I'm going to say. Okay, fine, Bo. Borderline hour 40. Hour 45 with intermission. Because when I saw it in 2019 with Gideon Glick, I remember thinking, wow, they did that whole show in an hour and 45 minutes. But take out the intermission. Borderline hour and 20.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure. Okay, fine. Fine, Geraldine, if you say so.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just saying I'm very rarely wrong.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, you have seen the world longer than I have, so I'm gonna adhere to you. That is my new way to say.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

You'Re older and wiser and.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, sure, fine. Fine. Wider. Anyway, you're okay.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Okay. I have to apologize to your listeners. I do have remnants of a cold that I'm over, so I will occasionally laugh, and it sounds like a smoker's cough, which sounds like this. Excuse me. Thank you. Anyway, at least it's not me eating.

[Matt Koplik]

On the pod, which people used to yell at me about.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I wanted to say some things to you when you ate on the pod, but I'm not. But I'm here now.

[Matt Koplik]

I just thought that people would enjoy it, imagining themselves stuffing my mouth.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

This is not asmr. Matt Koplik. This is Broadway Breakdown with Matt Koplik. With Matt Koplik. The most famous and the least opinionated homosexual I've ever known. Did I say that right? Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I look forward to the day where that becomes the reality and not the original statement.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

What is your. What are you gonna do when you do become, like, a famous, like, broadcast journalist?

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, God, I hope that doesn't happen.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I see that for you.

[Matt Koplik]

I really want to just be a Jack of all trades. I want to be able to dabble in everything. I talked about this, actually. So as everyone already knows and is tired of listening to me talk about it, we are doing fundraising for my play. You're doing a play?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

We're doing a play.

[Matt Koplik]

You wrote a play.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh.

[Matt Koplik]

And we started fundraising for it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Congratulations.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you. We're at this moment in time. It's October 10th. We've raised almost $2,000.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

That's amazing.

[Matt Koplik]

And we've only announced it on the podcast. We haven't done anything else for it yet. But we are about to start doing social media announcements for it and recorded all these videos of me talking about myself, about writing about the play. But one of them, Tyler Milliron, who we both know we love, was behind the camera being, like, pitching me things to talk about. He was like, you know, what do you see for yourself? Like, how are you in theater in some respect? I was like, oh, I guess I do this, I do that. I go. In some ways, I'm aspiring to be the boy Elaine May. And as I've said before, if you don't know who Elaine May is, get cultured. But I just Fucking love her career because she's done everything you can do, and it's only because she wants to. Like, when she gets bored with one thing, she moves on to another thing.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

But that's the sign of a true artist. And I know we're not even talking about Little Shop of Horrors yet, but I think that speaks volumes of, you know, true theater artists today. You cannot just go into this business planning to be one thing. If you want to survive, you have to create your own work. You have to write your own material sometimes. I mean, I've staged managed shows before, too. I did. I wasn't planning to become a drag performer, but, you know, I'm doing it, and I'm still pursuing a theater career, more or less. But, you know, you have to wear many, many hats. And so this is one more hat. You're wearing your writer hat, your fundraising hat, and I guess producer hat, sort of.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, Yeah. I don't. I'm not officially a producer on. I don't want to be right now, but I have had to do a lot of producer activities on this just to get it fucking done and organized. But, yeah, I mean, wearing all the hats, a. It's something you have to do, as you said, to survive. But it also just makes you better because you become a better writer when you've directed a little bit. You become a better director when you've acted a little bit. You become a better actor when you've written a little bit.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It gives you a stronger appreciation for the giant machinery of a show that you are trying to build.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. Which leads us to Little Shock of Horrors.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Ooh.

[Matt Koplik]

We love Little Shock because of the genius who crafted this whole thing.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Say his name.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Howard Ashman. Alan Menken.

[Matt Koplik]

Alan Menken. Also a genius. But this was not the brainchild of Alan. This was the brainchild of Howard.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And how Alan Menken will say so himself. Everything that they collaborated on, he's like, it started with Howard. He was the captain of the ship. And, like, I went along with the ride. But also, I think what Alan did really well, which Jody Benson can attest. She said, me and Alan were really good at speaking. Howard.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

She's like, we understood what he was going for. We knew how to parlay that into a performance. So she's like, how, like, Howard couldn't really read music. He wasn't a composer, but he knew what he wanted. And Alan was able to take that and make it into the music that it was. And Jody was able to perform that the way it Was so. Which I just. I love that. I wish that Howard had lived longer so we could have a larger rep of people who were like, I also spoke Howard.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes. But it makes you appreciate the works that he did give us. Because if you look at the works that he gave us, very little to few flaws in each show and movie. I will say this confidently, and I've said this. I remember thinking, Little Shop of Horrors, in my mind, is a perfect musical. It is in terms of character development, story structure, spectacle, musicality. What am I forgetting?

[Matt Koplik]

There's also just not a wasted second in it. No, it is perfect. It's bulletproof. Really? Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's got comedy, it's got heightened drama, but it's still based in a sense of sincerity. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

There is absolute pathos in that show. And it's the magic trick of it, because it's a ridiculous piece, but it has moments that truly move you. Yes, and we'll talk about all of that because one of the questions in the Discord Channel that someone asked very controversially, and they even said so. They said, is Ellen Green actually good in this, or have we just gotten used to all of her choices? And, like, are we just loving the fact all the big things she does? Spoiler alert. No. She is legitimately great in this. There's a reason why her shadow is looming so large. But I want to talk a bit more about certain things that she's done over the years as Audrey that are just perfect because she's done it a few times, and each time has both gotten a little more ridiculous but also better at the same time. Like, you listen to her in bootleg audios of the original Off Broadway run. You listen to her. You watch her in the movie. You watch videos of her at the City center run in 2015, and you're like, oh, she definitely got more alien, like, but found new laughs. Found certain moments of just absolute devastation.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

She's got a specific line reading in her monologue in Summer. That screen that guts me. And no one has done it like her. No one to this day still has done it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

No one can, nor should they. People should be able to find their own Audrey.

[Matt Koplik]

But Howard Ashman, I'm gonna say this right now. Forgiveness for anything that Sutton and I say that we've said in previous episodes. I've spoken about Howard many times. I talk about Little Mermaid all the time. I talk about Smile all the time. I talk about Little Shop, a whole bunch of. He was a true genius. And, yes, his catalog is small because he died so young. But it is a testament to his talent and his craft that while Small is so impactful. And even the things that did not have the same success as Mermaid or Beauty and the Beast or Little Shop did still contribute to the theatrical lexicon in some way. I agree. And we keep rediscovering the gems of that. When Encores off center did God bless you, Mr. Rosewater, while not perfect, we all kind of went, oh, this is like a much smarter show than we all remembered it being. And like, this should. Somebody should do this again. And every time I fucking send smiles somebody's way, they go, wait, this score is incredible. Yep. And they go, wait. And this script is actually, like, very, like, relevant right now. Like, yeah, no, he knew what he was fucking doing. And he also always led with humanity and pathos. He never spoke down to his characters, even when it was a satire. Which is why a. Sometimes people take it at face value and play it the incorrect way. They lean into caricature without knowing the commentary that's happening. And it frustrates me. The one that I always come back to is the Maria Gonzales in Smile. If you watch the original movie Smile, which is a much meaner movie, Maria is not a villain in any way. She's not even like the Golden Girl. She's just an annoying contestant to Melanie Griffith. And Melanie Griffith and friends basically fuck with her talent to make her firework batons explode. And no commentary on the fact that she's the only contestant of color and the fact that she's using her heritage to her advantage. Nothing like that. Howard sees all this in the mid-80s in Reagan era Broadway, and he's like, no, there's something to be said that she's the only contestant of color. She's using it intelligently, knowing that in 1987, she can't be true to her heritage and still win. She has to play up the caricature of it if she's gonna win and it proves successful. She keeps moving along, but a lot of people just take it again at the, like, oh, she's. She's such a stereotype. Like, no, she's playing the stereotype to her advantage. And there's a moment in the show, in the Shine segment, when she's berating the stage manager to make sure that all of her cues are correct for her performance. And when they ask her if she's ready, she, like, turns on a light and says, see? And runs off stage. When I do it, when I stage the show. I've talked about it before. But I want it said again in case anybody tries to fucking steal it. I want that moment with the stage manager to be the only time we hear Maria speak without an accent, because there's no one who's judging her around her. And she says, play the tape. You're gonna do this, right? Are you ready, Maria? See? And we all of a sudden realize this is an act she's doing to win and without changing a line of dialogue. But that's. This is all going back to. I just. I humble bragged for a second for my genius stroke, but I feel like Howard, with everything he does, has that touch of humanity and that touch of satirical knowledge.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

100%. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which comes from just having a deep well of information about our culture, our pop culture. Like, he just. He was able to throw pop culture references into everything and make it make sense.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I think if you want to compare Howard Ashman to someone who is still with us, I think Charles Bush has a very similar approach. A lot of Charles Bush's plays are based in satire, but it's all got to be based in honesty, sincerity, and truth. The reason the camp works, because you are performing the honesty of it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And it's. I mean, different. Charles is satirizing films of yesteryear, the Gidget movies and the Alfred Hitchcock films of, you know, way back when. But it's still something that in culture, we appreciate, we love. So when we watch those plays, we laugh because they're familiar, but they can still give a gut punch because it's so written so honestly.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And you have to play it honestly, otherwise the gut punch doesn't happen.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And that's why Little Shop of Horrors is a perfect musical, because you are genuinely sad when. Spoiler alert. Everybody dies in this musical, pretty much.

[Matt Koplik]

Except for the black characters. How rare is that?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Well ahead of its time.

[Matt Koplik]

It was Howard Ashburn's, like, how about we kill all the whities? It's. It's. But it's. Yeah. And then when you look at the original movie it's based off of and how it was adapted, it's just so fucking incredible.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Have you ever seen that movie?

[Matt Koplik]

I've watched a little bit of it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's wild.

[Matt Koplik]

It is wild. And you can see. And I was. I went to the drama bookshop and I did a naughty thing. There's a book about Little Shop of Horrors, about its whole.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

The journey.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, the whole journey. And I didn't have it in my budget to buy it, so I spent about an hour and a half picking through certain sections of the books. I couldn't read it cover to cover, but I was, like, reading about five to six page increments every, like, 15 pages just to sort of get the. The bullet points. But I was reading this segment about how Howard was adapting it, and it's just really fast. They show photocopies of each outline he does before he even starts writing the script because they didn't have enough time for him to write a whole script every couple of months. They had to get this thing ready to go in less than a year. So he sort of sat down with the original movie and spent basically a month and a half reworking the outline each time. So that way, when they did start writing it, they were good to go. And you just see each outline shifting further and further away from the movie. And. And, like, you can you see the. The idea bubbles move things around and, like. Oh, that's like. That's how he got from here to here.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's so cool. It is cool. And. Well, I. The fact that they produced the original Off Off Broadway run of Little Shop of Horrors so quickly, you have to remember, too, the original Little Shop of Horrors film, they filmed it in two days.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, they filmed all the actors in two days.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Well, yes, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, that was something they talked about in the book. They're like, let's stop this urban legend that the whole thing was completed in two days. Like, the actors were on set for two days, but they did do, like, rehearsals for two days. They had to do exterior shots and all that. I know.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

That's still an impressive feat, though. Come on. Oh, absolutely.

[Matt Koplik]

And also, like, the thing was written in, like, two minutes. The whole thing came about because it was Roger Corman, that's the original writer, director. He was known for making movies on a really tight budget really quickly, and he was always challenging himself if he could do it faster and cheaper, and which you and I both know what that's like. Can I do it faster and cheaper?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Don't talk about my sex life on your podcast, Matt.

[Matt Koplik]

I was talking about your art, baby. Right, my art, which in some ways is your sex life.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

How dare you. Tell the truth.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but, yeah, the original movie was shot so fast and done so quickly because Roger Corbin was like, can I make a movie this quickly? And he did.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And he did.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And how could he have ever known that it would have catapulted this musical theater obsession that homosexuals like you and I absolutely will sit down and have a podcast about it.

[Matt Koplik]

And was, I believe, the film debut of Jack Nicholson.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes, it was. Jack Nicholson played the crazy patient that in the 1986 film Bill Murray played.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure does.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

That Bill Murray scene is incredible in the movie.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's wild.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think he improvises the entire thing.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Of course he does.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Also improvising the whole thing and trying to, like, keep Steve Martin like that is an accomplishment. Steve Martin, who was maybe one of the most comedic geniuses of our time, with Bill Murray, trying to not make Steve Martin break. You know, that must have been a hard day to film.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. He's got that one line where he's talking about the past dentists he's been to, including, like a mom and pop dentist place. And the woman is blind, but she's still really good at her craft. She's like, you tell her what the problem is, she feels her way around, and eventually she fixes it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's so brilliant.

[Matt Koplik]

It's so as he's putting the. Like the cotton into his mouth on his own. It's so good.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I have to say, I think I watched this movie when I was a child. I mean, it came out in 86. I was 2.

[Matt Koplik]

Came out. Yes, it did. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Sorry.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I'm sorry.

[Matt Koplik]

Was it. Was it spring? Was it winter of 86 or winter of 87?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

What was the.

[Matt Koplik]

The movie. The movie musical.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

The movie. It was. It's a 1986 film.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Sorry. Because I couldn't remember if it was coming out the same time as Smile premiered on Broadway or the year after.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, I see. Well, that. I do not know. You know Smile more than I do.

[Matt Koplik]

I do. Smile came out that fall of 86. And I know because I know he. Ashman is doing double duty between the movie and the musical because the movie took a lot longer to make than they expected. And then when they eventually had to do the reshoots, that also kind of added stuff.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Of course.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So he was sort of. He was going back and forth a lot during that time, which while also working on Little Mermaid at Disney. My God, I know, it must be nice to be booked and blessed. But you said you had seen the movie at the end.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, well, I think. I mean, I was all that to say. I think this is my first introduction. I remember seeing this movie was like five years old. And I didn't. Of course, you don't know what kink is, but, like, if you look at Bill Murray's character, that is a character who is after a fetish. He's got a kink fetish. And I was thinking about like me, five year old me watching Little Shop of Horrors and just loving it. Not understanding, of course, the nature of what Bill Murray was after. But like, oh, this I think is my introduction. I think Bill Murray is my introduction to kink culture. Thank you, Bill Murray and Steve Martin.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, I didn't know what I was experiencing watching Steve Martin in that movie, but there is something about his performance and how he's put together in that movie that he's a lot. Yeah. Really fucking does it for me.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes. Which is like, here is the vision of here. Like this man is quote unquote sexy, but he is not the person you are supposed to be with.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I think because that's so blatantly obvious, it allows you to still find him hot. Because you're not saying that Orin is hot. You were saying Steve Martin in this getup is hot.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

True. And I think, I mean, Oren Scravello, dds is an abhorrent character, but it's works well because it is played by Steve Martin. Because we as an audience, we are familiar with Steve Martin. We know Steve Martin is not actually going to hurt Ellen Green. So when we see the scenes where he's slapping her, hitting her, it's like we're in on the joke.

[Matt Koplik]

We feel safe in the comedy of that kind of violence because of who's playing it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

We can look at the situation, acknowledge the fact that this is not a good and healthy relationship. Nobody should be in this situation. But because it's. We know who this is. You're right. We're safe in his hands.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. I. We were talking about this off mic right before we recorded. But you and I both listened to Unspooled. You probably do. You listen to it pretty often.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I do.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. I listen to it on and off. Because every now and then they will cover a movie and I will get so angry with their take on it because I'm like, I don't know what movie you watched. And it's actually the two Howard Ashman movies, the Disney Little Mermaid and the movie version of Little Shop of Horrors.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I don't remember their takes on those.

[Matt Koplik]

They both didn't like Little Shop of Horrors because they thought it was made making fun of domestic violence. And I was like, that's actually a very dumb take.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah. Oh, they missed the point completely.

[Matt Koplik]

And they're both very smart people and every now and then they get really. We're talking about Paul Shearer and Amy Nicholson who like they. I was just listening to their Streetcar episode In preparation, actually, I listened to the first five minutes of the Streetcar episode in preparation for the Streetcar recording I did. And then I listened to the rest of the episode after we recorded, and I was like, oh, we said a lot of the same things. So that's why I thought they were smart.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

But until.

[Matt Koplik]

Until. But Little Shop, I had listened, and I, like. I think I got 30 minutes into it, and I had to stop because I got so angry at how much they were misreading the movie.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So I don't. First of all, the musical, the movie. Are never telling you violence is funny.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

No, of course not.

[Matt Koplik]

If they were, they, like, Orin would live, and. And he would keep beating Audrey, and we would keep laughing about it. Right. But we're not laughing at the violence. In fact, there's only one moment of violence against Audrey that happens on stage. The rest of the time, it's all offstage, and we're seeing the aftermath. And there are.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Which is almost more effective, I think.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. There's one major slap, and it happens at a specific moment, at a turning point for Seymour. We'll talk all about it. And it's real. If there's one thing about this current revival in New York, I think that they do not botch, but they don't do as well as. They don't really let that moment land. They just kind of keep moving. And when you listen to the recording of the 2003 revival flaws that that production had, they did let that moment land of when Douglas Sills hits Kerry Butler, they have a big, loud moment, upbeat. And Carrie says, that hurt, Lauren. That hurt. Yes. Move out. And then they take a moment, and they even have Hunter Foster get to the door to, like, follow them. Stop. And if you watch the production, the woman next to whoever's filming it lets out a giant.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh.

[Matt Koplik]

Cause she's like. She never saw Little Shop, clearly, because she's like, oh, he's gonna do it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, it's my fav. Thing to hear people discovering a show like this for the first time. It's like. It's so exciting.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I said this. Did I say this in the Streetcar episode? Or I said this in another episode, maybe west side, where I get genuine excitement when things that I love someone hasn't seen. I'm like, can I show it to you?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh. When I went to see the Sweeney Todd revival, which, I mean, say what you will about that revival, it was very exciting to hear people react. Seeing Sweeney Todd for the very first time, it's.

[Matt Koplik]

It was thrilling watching Uncultured fucks. Realize who Ruthie and Miles is in act two was lovely.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, fantastic.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. All of them going, oh, God, no. I'm like, that's right, you fucking bitch.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah, she.

[Matt Koplik]

She's his wife, you dumb slut.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I like it when you talk so dirty to me.

[Matt Koplik]

I do. I do. I do talk dirty to you. I. My. I would love to be in the front row of a musical one day, right behind the music director as they're conducting. Anytime they do something really well with the orchestra, I go, good for you, you fucking whore. I want to make sure that Stephen Aremus hears me loud and clear.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Honestly. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Nah, I call him a dumb slut to his face all the time.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, my.

[Matt Koplik]

Nah, that's. But that's my friendships with you people. By you people, I mean successful gay men.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Am I not a successful gay man?

[Matt Koplik]

I included you in the you people.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, thank you. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So tell me how Little Shop got into your life. How did it enter your chat?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Well, first and foremost, aside from the fact that my drag name is Suttonly Seymour, Seymour is my real last name. So I was kind of doomed from the start. My sisters and my mom, we would watch this movie all the time. I think there was a huge love and appreciation. My favorite TV show growing up was Muppet Babies on Saturday morning cartoons. And so when every time we could watch a Muppet movie or something with puppetry, my sisters would put it on and I would just be dazzled by it. And then Little Shop of Horrors comes out, becomes a huge hit. And I just remember watching. We'd go to Blockbuster Video and we get the. Get the video, and I would just watch it over and over again. I fell in love with Rick Moranis. I fell in love with Steve Martin. Ellen Green, Vincent Gardenia.

[Matt Koplik]

I was about to say, don't you dare forget her.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

How could you not forget? How could you forget Vincent Gardenia? Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

John Candy, Mary Margulies.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes. Who else is in the. Oh, Christopher Guest.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, Christopher Guest. Looking like a snack, by the way.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I mean, I wouldn't kick him out of bed for eating crackers. I'll be the cracker.

[Matt Koplik]

Miz Cracker, one might say.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And then is it John Belushi at the end or Jim Belushi? Which Belushi Brothers at the end.

[Matt Koplik]

The one who's still alive. Right.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah. Is it John or Jim? I don't know the Belushi's very well. Forgive me, listeners. I'm sorry. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But Oprah. Uma. Uma, Oprah. John. Jim, don't you dare quote David Letter.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Forbidden Hollywood at me right now.

[Matt Koplik]

What? It was David Letterman.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It was Gers. But also. Okay, go on.

[Matt Koplik]

Wait, wait.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It was Forbidden Hollywood. There's a section where someone plays Whoopi Goldberg and does, like, Oprah. Uma. Uma, Oprah. Need I say more?

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I need to listen to that.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, Forbidden Hollywood. Listen, I know Forbidden Broadway's having a beautiful moment, and our friend John Miscavige is on in it. We're very proud. But go back and listen to the live recording of Forbidden Hollywood. It is. It's a live recording. You got a studio audience, and it's brilliant.

[Matt Koplik]

I will have to take a listen. What's your favorite Forbidden Broadway recording? Do you have one?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I think. Well, Forbidden Broadway, specifically. Yeah, I. Oh, gosh. I mean, I always go back to Cheetah Rita. I forget which album that's on, but.

[Matt Koplik]

I think that's volume two. Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And I also love the Jekyll and Hyde. Like, I know. I know it by the bits. Like, I love the Jekyll and Hyde one.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, so this is coming. We're recording this before the Jekyll and Hyde episode comes out, but you better believe I. I recite the entire thing on the episode. It's Phantom Light. Jekyll and Hydeed by night. He murdered natty girls who deserved it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

There's my smokers.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Jekyll and Hide. Perfect for people who find Andrew Lloyd Webber's music too challenging.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah. No, I. I'm disappointed. Little Shop has never had a Forbidden Broadway.

[Matt Koplik]

It's too clever. That's the thing.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

A testament to Howard Asher.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, they. I remember they had a little bit about it when the revival came out, but it wasn't. It wasn't about Little Shop so much as that there were many. It was that and Avenue Q and something else, and it was all about, like, you have to have a puppet instead of, you got to get a gimmick. You got to get a puppet if you want to succeed on Broadway. Yeah. But I remember Gerard said something in the Forbidden Broadway book that there were some shows he didn't spoof because they were just too good and fair and more like. But, like, just too good and clever. Like, it's one thing to make fun of a really good drama, but when the show is a satirical comedy and really smart, it's like, how do you make jokes about something that's already really clever? So he couldn't. He said he tried to do one for City of Angels and he ended up scrapping it. Because he's like, it's. It's already so clever. I can't do anything. I'd be putting a hat on a hat and it wouldn't be as funny. So I wonder if he tried with Little Shop and just couldn't.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I mean, yeah, it'd be difficult, I suppose. I mean, it's easy to make fun of something like Wicked, because Wicked is just. It's just.

[Matt Koplik]

It's so big.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's so big. Phantom, it's so big. Little Shop, it's big, but it's. It's also camp. And it's hard to make fun of camp when you're. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so we talked about this before, about how people misinterpret camp. And my go to is talking about with Bad Cinderella, it was a whole creative team that had never watched Pink Flamingos but looked at the audience and said, aren't we serving Pink Flamingos? I'm like, you've just read about it. You don't actually. You've never seen it, you don't know it. Yeah, it's an attitude, it's a style. It's also kind of antagonistic. It's hard to be knowingly camp opening cold on Broadway because you're already part of the system in some ways. You can't really buck the system when you're charging $350 a ticket. Oh, Mary kind of gets away with it because they started off Broadway and have maintained their tone on Broadway and have been able to be a success that way. So it feels almost like they're stealing from the rich by. By being true to themselves. But like, if Little Shop opened cold on Broadway, I don't know if people would have accepted the tone of it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Well, and I think that's why Howard Ashman originally wanted the 1982 Off Broadway production to stay off Broadway at the Orpheum Theatre, because there was something about finding a show intimate enough like that in the East Village. Like, there is an intimacy to an Off Broadway show that is camp and it works better. But if you bring it to a bigger scale, I don't know if it would sell as well.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. There's an expectation you unwittingly have when you are traveling to the east village in a 200 seat theater that's like mostly clean and seeing this kind of show, then going to the August Wilson, a 1,200 seat, very clean theater that looks like Palm beach and watching the same show.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Your brain, even if you don't mean to, your brain changes what you're about to see. And, yeah, I think there's a whole justification for that. I'll go into my journey with Little Shop of Pars in just a minute, but first, let's take a quick break. Yay. Billy, I'd beg to differ with you.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

How do you mean? You're the top.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, you're an arrow collar.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar.

[Matt Koplik]

And we back. So I was about to call you Prescott, but that's your.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

That's my name.

[Matt Koplik]

It is your name, but we're calling you Sutton because that's how you're being listed in this episode.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, okay. Hi, I'm Sutton and Prescott. Or am I Prescott and Sutton?

[Matt Koplik]

Neither. Sutton and not Prescott. Prescott is Prescott and not Sutton. Doesn't work as well, but it's fun. It's fun. I would love to see you do a confrontation as Sutton and Prescott.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Didn't. Jonathan.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Jonathan. I was gonna. I didn't want to spoil his cabaret, but. No, I will. Jonathan Hoover, who is AKA Inappropriate Patty, goes through this whole cabaret of like, is he going to pursue his life and career as Jonathan Hoover or keep doing at Inappropriate Patty? And then he does this brilliant Jekyll and Hyde confrontation as Jonathan and Patti LuPone. It would be harder to do it as Sutton and Prescott just because I paint my entire face.

[Matt Koplik]

It's tu. It's tu. A wed woes. But I love challenging you, and I can only challenge you to be in my presence these days. So I'm trying to give you an artistic challenge.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Now, listen, if you want to see me do some artistic challenges, come see my new show, which, please. Which opens November 22nd in Puerto Vallarta at the Palm Cabaret.

[Matt Koplik]

If you're able to travel and not host, go for it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I will bring it to New York in the summer. Spring.

[Matt Koplik]

I love that. I love that you come back when the magnolia trees are in bloom.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes. When the cherry blossoms and come and all that.

[Matt Koplik]

J. Sutton, did you ever get to perform in Little Shop?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I have done two production of two productions of Little Shop of Horrors. In high school, I did a community theater production where I was just in the ensemble because it was one of those community theater productions that had an ensemble. It was very, very fun. And then in college, I was in a student production directed by my friend David Alpert. We had, like, zero budget. We all produced our own costumes, and it was still. It still remains to this day, one of my favorite theatrical things I've ever done on stage. It was so wild. I played Oren Scivello, dds and all of his various other characters, like the first Customer and Patrick Martin. And it was. Honestly, it was. It's. It's just. It's a great show. It's a great show to be in. It's a great show to watch, and I have great memories of it.

[Matt Koplik]

When you do Little Shop, you really do love the show. But unlike Mystery of Edwin Drood, it's.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Also fun for the audience, 100%.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, that's my. One of my hot takes is. I think anyone who says Mystery of Edwin Drood is one of their favorite musicals most likely did it like they were in a production of it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Because that's a show that's more fun for the cast than it is for the audience, like Joseph. Yeah. It's not. It's not a terrible time, but it's just. You have more fun on stage than you do in the audience for both of those shows. I first got into Little Shop, of course, by the movie. I don't remember when I watched it. I couldn't tell you. There also was, for a time, a cartoon show.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes. Lil Shoppa Horrors. Mm.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think that was around for, like, two, three seasons.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah. Around the same time as the Beetlejuice television show.

[Matt Koplik]

I was literally about to say it was something where the original 80s movies were successful enough that they did launch a cartoon show. I think the Beetlejuice series lasted a little bit longer.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I have no idea.

[Matt Koplik]

But also, like, the Beetlejuice series is what started the narrative that Lydia and Beetlejuice were friends because that's what they are on the cartoon show.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right. And same with Audrey II and Seymour in the kids show.

[Matt Koplik]

That they were, like, buddies and that they were, like, partners in crime, and they get rid of all of the other stuff. Right. Which is something like you're selling something to kids. Fine, whatever. But I remember watching that cartoon show and just not really caring much, but it was around. And then the revival happened, and I didn't get to see it with the original company. I saw it when Joey Fatone joined.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, wow.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I just remember watching that show kind of die before my eyes. It was one of the first times as a teenager who loved theater, because at that point, I was 14, and I was still kind of loving everything, and I still really enjoyed myself. But it was the first time I recognized an audience not being on board with what was happening on stage. Everybody was enjoying it fine, but nobody.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Was loving was at the end of its time.

[Matt Koplik]

It was at the end of the run it was in a theater that was too big, and. We'll talk about this more. Everything was kind of off. A little off.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

That was a turning point for me. I got to do the show.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Who did you play?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, look at how hot I am. I was clearly Seymour.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes. That is a thing now, isn't it? Matt Copland.

[Matt Koplik]

We're absolutely gonna talk about that. But, yeah, I was. I was 17 at Everybody Take a Shot. Stagedoor Manor Performing Arts Center.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

You were at Stage Door Manor?

[Matt Koplik]

No, I just watched Camp, But I like to pretend that I was there.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Shut up. I love camp.

[Matt Koplik]

Camp is awesome. She's fucked. I'm ready. And the goddamn show must go on. So let's get cracking, shall we? Okay, save the speech, Rummy. I. Yeah, I. I went to Stage Door the summer before that movie came out, and then the summer after it came out. You, everyone. It was like they were filling up the roster of campers every summer, and. And all of a sudden, we had more money for sets, and there was a little bit less mold in the walls, but 17 years old, I got to play Seymour. I don't know how that happened, because I. It took forever for me to get parts.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I.

[Matt Koplik]

But I really enjoyed it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I bet you were wonderful.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I was. It was a misguided production, because I remember my Audrey was Charlotte Maltby, sister of Emily Maltby, daughter of Richard Malpy Jr. And Charlotte was 13. I was 17, but she was twice my height, so it worked. But Charlotte and I would talk because our director, like, on the very first day, was like, okay, we're gonna go big and broad and campy, and we're gonna play it up for laughs. And on the very first page of the script that MTI gives you is a note from Howard Ashman that says, do not play this up. He's like, play it serious.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

He's like, the circumstances are crazy enough that the comedy comes from that the characters believe in their circumstances. Don't comment on it. And Charlotte and I sat there when he was talking about it. We were like, did you not read this dead man's note? Because we're gonna honor his memory. And so we tried to play it like earnest, but everybody else was all over the place. And you're 17, and your sense of comedic timing is still kind of in flux. You're learning more about it. And I remember doing the Michelin Harrod, and I watched the video, like, many years later, and my breakdown moment, I played it so intensely, I was like, I wish I could go back and maybe lighten that part up. But I just remember, like, really screaming, no, no. Like, this is my Madea. And I was like, oh, God. Because I was like, it's the one time the Seymour actually gets to be vulnerable and emotional.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But I was like, I could have notched it back two or three dials, but it was fine. It was a fun thing. I'd like to do it again at some point.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I would love to do it again at some point.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I saw it again on Lestage in London. I saw it at the Regents Park Open Air Theater.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh. With Vicky Vox.

[Matt Koplik]

Wow. So I saw that. The Broadway revival and then this recent revival I've seen twice. I saw it once pretty soon after Groff left post Covid.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It was.

[Matt Koplik]

Rob McClure was supposed to be on, but he was out. But it was still Tammy Blanchard and Christian Borrell. And then I saw it again a few weeks ago with Andrew Barth Feldman and Sarah Hyland. And this production is very good. But I gotta say, the Regents park production is still my favorite that I've seen live.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I've seen clips, and it just looked wild.

[Matt Koplik]

It was so fun. And Regents park is known for doing wild shit.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I mean, I remember because they cast. Vicky Vox is a drag performer who played a physical human version of Audrey ii. But they still had puppetry, and correct me if I'm wrong, but when I saw clips of it, Vicky Vox, it was very, like, 1997, Batman Forever style, like, neon paint job lights. And the puppet itself was gigantic and very British and very, like, handcrafted puppetry.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Who's that painter that does, like, 50s comic art? Is it Lichtenstein? Lichtenstein, something like that? Sure, something like that. I'm gonna look it up as we keep talking. But no, it was very comic book aesthetic.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And also, first of all, it's Regents park, which is a large space, you know, and. And so they had to fill it somehow. And they had an ensemble. They had an ensemble. They had a big set. This was never meant to be like, we're doing it intimately because that's the way, you know, people want. It's supposed to be done, that you. You adapt the show for whatever space you're given. And they're like, we wanted. We just want to do this show, so we have to make it, expand it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

That production got good reviews. It did.

[Matt Koplik]

It was. First of all, it was. Everyone was. Had the tone correct. It was so much fun. It was vocally fine. The urchins nailed it. And that's really where you want your vocal heft from? The Audrey was kind of voice six acting ten, which was okay. Suddenly Seymour did not soar. But it was fine. It wasn't a dud. Yeah, but it was. Yeah. Vicky vox as Audrey 2. What they did was when Feed Me happened, the plant opened up and Vicky came out of the plant, and there she was. And. Yeah. And we just established, like, yeah, whenever Audrey II speaks, this is what's gonna happen. And, like, deal with it. And looking like a Rocky Horror Picture show version of the Joker.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes. Or like.

[Matt Koplik]

Or like a Rocky Horror Picture show version of Poison Ivy.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

It was so fucking.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

That's what I meant when I was talking, like, Batman and Robin, that neon ass kind of like, yeah, it is Lichtenstein. Go for.

[Matt Koplik]

Or Lichtenstein. Good for me. I'm cultured.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

But let's talk about tattooing names on walls at the Eagle again. Yeesh.

[Matt Koplik]

It's not graffiti. You're just tattooing.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, very good.

[Matt Koplik]

You're tattooing architecture.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Is it temporary tattoos? Anyway, Vicky Vox. Great. Audrey ii.

[Matt Koplik]

Wonderful. Audrey ii. And it actually was so funny because I went with my dad, and I think that was our. It was our second trip to London together, and that was, I think, the first show we saw when we got there, and we walk out, my dad's like, I don't know what they're talking about. About how the British can't do musicals and that the talent pool here isn't as good as in America. Like, they're full of it. And then we go, see, everybody's talking about Jamie. And he goes, yeah, it's not as good. And I said. I said, dad, we just got really lucky with Little Shop. Like, they cast this so well. We're also watching an American musical done very well. And then we go see a British musical with a British cast, which, like, Jamie's a fun show. There's a lot of good stuff in there.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

But, like, it's definitely a. It's. There's a difference between an American musical and a British musical. There are very different approaches to how we will write a musical. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And sometimes it works for both sides of the Atlantic. Little Shot being an example of that. And sometimes it doesn't translate. And sometimes Jamie being a choice. Yeah. Because Jamie has yet to come to Broadway. I think at this point, it never will. There was always talks of it coming. Like, they did that mini tour that opened in la, and wasn't Michelle in it for a bit?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And Bianca was as well.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And they Both did it in London.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And, like, it's. Again, it's a fun. The movie's actually better, but not as fun as the show, if that makes sense. Like, they improved a lot of the script in the movie and then made it less fun. But it's a. It's a fun time. But, yeah, we walked out of Jamie, and my dad was like, oh, that wasn't as good. Yeah, no, we saw. We got very lucky that we saw a perfect American musical done well here.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

He thought he was gonna go in and get another Little Shop of Horrors.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, he thought he was gonna go in and see a perfectly constructed musical with, you know, an amazing pool of musical theater talent. And I was like, no, we. This is different. Yeah, there was great talent on that stage, but Little Shop just was cast so well.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah. Well, I also think there's a lot more universal messages in Little Shop of Horrors that can. I mean, Jamie is a very specific message that is specifically lgbtq, whereas Little Shop of Horrors, it is really about, you know, the Everyman. Like, everybody. Seymour is given all these things. He is. He is shrouded in temptation and greed, and that's very, very human. That is something that we all relate to. So I can see why, you know, your straight, heterosexual, male father might not relate to. Everybody's talking about Jamie so much.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe everybody's talking about Jamie, but nobody's talking about Seymour.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I mean, yeah, it wasn't that he.

[Matt Koplik]

Didn'T relate to Jamie. I think he just thought that the music wasn't very good. And I'm like, it's not really good. And Little Shop has a banger score.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Well, thank you, Alan Menken and Howard Ashman.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. How do we get into. Okay, actually, let's start with how we always get into this.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

For the uncultured fuchs.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

What is the story of Little Shop of Horrors?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

What is the story of Little Shop of Horrors? Well, we are in Skid Row, and we meet Seymour Krelbourne. We meet Audrey. We meet Mr. Mushnick. They're in a very poor part of town. The shop is at its ends meet, and everybody's wanting to get out of Skid Row. Seymour. Are we doing, like, a full plot breakdown, or do you want to, like, go beat by beat? Or do you want.

[Matt Koplik]

We can go beat by beat as we sort of deconstruct the show. But, yeah, like, we established they work in this flower shop. That's not doing well.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

But then Seymour and Seymour out shopping one day, just. There's a total eclipse of the Sun.

[Matt Koplik]

Total eclipse of the sun.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah. And he finds this. I always forget how they phrase this strange and interesting plant.

[Matt Koplik]

That's exactly it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Perfect. And he buys it from this old Chinese man, Daru, and he brings it to the flower shop, and suddenly it's attracting customers. And suddenly he's gaining confidence. Suddenly he's getting to talk with the girl of his dreams, Audrey. Audrey, who is in a. An abusive relationship with a professional.

[Matt Koplik]

He's a professional.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Or Scravello, dds. Yes.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

So there's that.

[Matt Koplik]

And Seymour discovers that the plant that he has found feeds off of blood. In order to grow.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And in order to keep the success of the shop going, he's got to.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Feed the plant with his own blood. With his own blood.

[Matt Koplik]

And then Audrey, which he is named Audrey II after Audrey, because he loves Audrey from afar.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

That sound that Ellen Green makes when Rick Moranis says, like, I named it Audrey, too. And she just goes, but like that.

[Matt Koplik]

Just that.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I can't even do it. That little, like, inaudible vocalization that's like. Yeah, exactly. It just. It tickled. And that's what makes Ellen Green so good in this role.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Anyway, anyhow, that's another story. Never mind.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Anyway, so he's feeding Audrey II his own blood, and it's growing bigger and bigger. And as it's growing bigger and bigger, the success of the store is getting bigger and bigger itself. They close for renovations. And one night, after Mr. Mushnick closes up shop, Audrey goes on a date with Oren Scravello, DDS. The plant, Audrey 2, collapses and starts murmuring, feed me.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And makes it very clear that the success of the store is not a coincidence. They are. They have powers. This plant that Seymour cannot begin to comprehend and says, if you feed me, I'll make it worth your while. Implying, if you can't give me your own blood, go out. Go out and get somebody else's. Like, go kill somebody.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And what perfect timing. Then does Audrey run back into the shop because she forgot her purse and forgot her sweater. Forgot her sweater. And in comes Oren Scrivello, dds. And here's the moment. It's the first time, you know, we've seen Audrey with a black eye, with an arm in her cast.

[Matt Koplik]

We see that. We keep seeing that the violence she's having in this relationship is getting worse. And we've never seen it. We only hear about it. We meet Orin, and he has a very funny song about how him being violent is part of his profession.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

He's a dentist.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And also, it should be said that when he meets Seymour to pick up Audrey for the date in the flower shop, he tells Seymour, oh, you should take this plant on the road. This is yours. Like, you should get out of this flower shop. Mushnik hears this and convinces Seymour to let him adopt him so that way he can't leave. You'll inherit the shop one day. As long as you don't leave me and be my son. Because Seymour is an orphan. And during the Feed me number, Orin and Audrey come back, and we finally see the moment on stage of Orin actually hitting Audrey. And it is terrible.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's terrible. And it is the moment that Seymour says to himself, I'm going to kill this man. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a great moment, because in the song. You know what? Fuck it. As everyone knows, there's no structure on this podcast. So let's just do this deep dive here in this moment.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Let's go.

[Matt Koplik]

The whole show is basically a Faustian tale.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Not basically. It is. Which is how Ashman chose to adapt the original movie. Because the original movie, Seymour first kills accidentally, right? He discovers that the plant needs blood, and when he can't feed it anymore, his own blood, because he's become just so anemic, he goes out sort of just to clear his head, and out of frustration, throws. He's at, like, the. The train tracks, throws rocks at this bottle of bourbon that is just, like, standing there on this ledge, keeps missing. And he finally takes a giant rock, throws it, and that's when the guy. A guy pops up who. I guess it's his bottle of bourbon. The rock hits, hits him, knocks him out. And Seymour's like, huh, I'll hide this body because I just killed somebody and gets the idea, oh, I'll feed the body to the plant. And then it just sort of keeps growing, and he keeps killing out of that necessity. It's not for wanting Audrey to love him. It's not.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Because it's not for revenge, like Sweeney Todd.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's just to sort of keep the plant happy.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

And it. He's not gaining anything. He's not losing anything. And in the original movie version, Audrey still lives. Mushnik still lives. There's no adaption in the movie with Mushnik and Seymour.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

There's no outer space, world domination.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. There's no. Even. So even the Dentist. I don't think the Dentist is dating Audrey. No.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

In the movie the Dentist. In the original movie, the Dentist is not dating Audrey.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

They incorporated that relationship into the musical.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And the dentist isn't sadistic in the movie, is he?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

No, he's sadistic in the movie.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. I couldn't remember.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

But he's not. He's. But he's not like a. An Elvis Presley looking kind of guy. Yeah, he's just a dentist.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, but so in the musical, when. And also in the movie, by the way, the plant does talk, but it talks very.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, it's got an annoying voice.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And it's also just. It's very. Feed me.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Exactly. Very whiny.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And doesn't say much more beyond feed me. It's always like, feed me, I'm hungry. More. Yeah. Doesn't have an actual vernacular. Doesn't. Doesn't have conversations.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right. And is not an alien.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's not an alien. It's a crossbreed that Seymour himself has. Has made.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And also because it's a crossbreed and not an alien, the plant doesn't have these mystical powers. The. The everyone coming to see it and the shot becoming even more successful is more of a coincidence than Audrey II or in the movie, in that version, Audrey Jr. S doing. And so in this version, Ashman has made Audrey II a very powerful figure and, and expresses so to Seymour and says, you can get everything you ever wanted. Like, you've already, like, the shop is becoming successful and you just got adopted. That's not a coincidence.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Think what, because of me.

[Matt Koplik]

That's because of me. Think what else I can do. If you feed me, I'll make it worth your while. And slowly starts to get Seymour on board.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right, but.

[Matt Koplik]

And then says the line, if you really got to justify, take a breath and look around, a lot of folks deserve to die. To which Seymour goes, no, that's absolutely not true.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's true.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. He says, I don't know anyone who deserves to get chopped up and fed to a hungry plant. Sure you do. And that's when Oren comes back, hits Audrey. Then we have the.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's brilliant.

[Matt Koplik]

It's so good. And he goes, it's one of my favorite lines, which is, you need blood, and he's got more than enough. You need blood. I need blood. He's got more than enough, so go get it. So he goes. So he goes to get it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And that just.

[Matt Koplik]

That becomes a snowball effect of just more things that he has to do because he hides Orin's bloody uniform, which Mushnik finds. And.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Well, I think it's also important to say before that happens, when Seymour goes to kill Oren Scivello at his dentist's office. Seymour can't go through with it. But lucky for Seymour, Oren Scivello has an addiction to nitrous oxide. He's invented this gas mask that feeds him nitrous oxide, and the mask gets stuck on his face and subsequently kills Orin. For Seymour.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

He's not a murderer. He's a manslaughter.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. He. He kills Orin by doing nothing.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And something that. The musical. And there's a difference between what happens in the stage show and the movie, because Orin still dies by asphyxiation in both.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

But the movie allows Seymour the opportunity to tell Orin why.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Because in the stage show, it's a number and it's very, you know. Yeah. But it's. And this is our first moment of acknowledging certain tweaks that happen in the movie that are why the changed ending actually worked better for the movie.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

In the movie version, Seymour has the gun, points it at Orin as he's dying by asphyxiation, or.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

No, no.

[Matt Koplik]

Does he have the gun pointed at him at that point? I can't remember. But Orin.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

He has a gun. I don't. But it's never fired.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's never fired, but I can't remember if he eventually pulls it out at the end, hoping to kill Orin, or. No, no, it's. Orin is trying to get it off, he says. And realizes that Seymour won't help him.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And Steve Barnes says, what did I ever do to you? And he says, it's not what you did to me. It's what I. What you did to her.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Who?

[Matt Koplik]

And then he goes, oh, her.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Boom. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He. So Seymour is given the moment to explain to the man who's about to die why he's about to die, and he realizes, oh, yeah, I did do that. And so it's not that it's justified, but he.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

But it's not, I think, because we are, as an audience, we are made to dislike, and we want to celebrate Orin's death. But at the same time, there's something about, like, oh, it's not as satisfying.

[Matt Koplik]

It's not a satisfying. Yeah, it's not satisfying. In the stage show, you're never watching it going, like, we did it. We defeated him. In the movie, there is a little bit.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I would say it's the same in the movie because, like, you're still. You still watch a man die. And even though, like, okay, this man should get his comeuppance. It's just. There's something. You see it in Rick Moranis face. Like, this was not the. The satisfactory vengeance that I was kind of hoping for.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. But also, I think by wording it that way of, it's not what you did to me, it's what you did to her. It emphasizes to the audience, at the root of this, Seymour isn't really doing it because the plant told him to, because he wants the success, because he wants the girl. At the root of it is the person he cares most about in the world is being harmed by this dude. And I can't have that happen. And it's the only way. In his mind.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He's not saying, you know, I'm sorry, but I have to. Oh, you wouldn't understand. He's like, no, ultimately, you did this to her. And in my mind, you deserve it. We're all like, we are doing an evil thing to defeat another evil. And it makes it more complicated. It makes it less Faustian. And again, it snowballs in the movie version into a different kind of way, which leads to the ending we have in the movie. In the stage show, ultimately, what happens is that Seymour just keeps getting deeper and deeper into it because of every person who finds out or he has to cover his tracks. He just gets. And also, each person that he kills in the stage show is closer to his heart because first it's Oren, who we don't care about, but then it's Mushnik.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And it's Mushnik who is his adopted father now.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. Who. And in the stage show, Mushnik isn't, you know. Yes, he. He adopts Seymour out of his own greed. Greed. But when he discovers the jacket and confronts Seymour with it, because he sees Seymour kissing Audrey, he's like, so you did this to get him out of the way? So you get the girl? He's like, no, I didn't. I swear I'm innocent. He goes, great. Let's go to the police station. We'll clear your name. Because they asked me if you did this.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes. But I don't think Mushnik is being sincere in that moment. He was just like, show me how to feed this plant.

[Matt Koplik]

That's in the movie. In the movie, he does that in the stage show. He says, we'll go down. We'll clear your name. And he says, okay, let's go. And Seymour.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Don't you think at the heart of it, Mushnik once. Like, he's gonna take him to the police station. And they'll. They're not really gonna clear.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know. You could. You could. You could play it either way. I've seen most Mushniks play it straight. And Seymour tells him, before we go, I forgot to put the deposits of the day into the safe. I put it in the plant. Could you go get it?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And so Mushnik does. And that's how he gets fed. In the movie version, Mushnik says, go, you know, skedaddle for a little while. I'll be in charge of everything here. Like, you know, just lay low and I'll do everything. Like. But, you know, while you're laying low, how do I feed this plan? How do I keep this going? Like. And that's where you understand that, no, Mushnik is trying to take advantage of Seymour. And Seymour doesn't, similar to Orin, doesn't tell Mushnik to go in and get the money from the plan. He just. He watches Audrey II slowly creep up on Mushnik, and he just doesn't do anything. So it's. He is not making active choices. He is making active inactivity. Does that make sense? And. But so in the stage show, yes, Mushnik is the next one to his heart. And then the third one is, spoiler alert, Audrey. And where he realizes how much, just how far gone he is, his son.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

All the fame and the pressure of being famous and getting all this notoriety, it's at a peak. And he's. The plant is constantly nagging him. More food. Feed me more, more, more fame. And fortune is saying, give us more attention. Give us more attention. So he's not really having time, A, for his own sanity, and B, we. The only scene, the only romantic scene we ever get with Seymour and Audrey is the suddenly Seymour scene. It's the only time we have this blip of romance between these two, which is why I think it gets the reaction it gets because it finally. We've been wanting these two to get together, and they do. It's one scene, because then the next scene they get, it's tragedy. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's Mushnik's death right after that. And he has that moment in Meekshell and Harriet that's cut in the movie, partly for timing purposes, but also if you watch the footage that they shot for his bridge and Mikshall and Harriet, it's not good. I'm glad they cut it because it's a little too ridiculous.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It works for the stage.

[Matt Koplik]

It works for the stage, yes. Of. Just, like, the plan Said all the opportunities are coming, and it's coming so fast he can't think straight. And there's a moment where he says, I'm not gonna do it. It's too much. And the. Is it. I don't know if it's the ego or the ID in him that is determined that the only reason Audrey does like him is because Audrey II has made it so. And thus I have to keep going because ultimately I want her. I want her in my life. I want her to love me. And if she doesn't, the line that breaks my heart, that always made me cry when I did it, was, she may not.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

She might not like me.

[Matt Koplik]

No, no. She may not like me. She may not want me. Is that it?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah. Without my plan, she might.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, no. She might not like me.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

She might. Without my plan, she might not love me anymore.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's the build up to love taught you before. I think it's. She may not want me, she may not like me. I think it's want like love, or is it like.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I think it's like want, but, you know. Yeah, we're splitting hairs.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. But the point is that it ends on without my plant. She may not love me anymore. And that just is so.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, and then the slow.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Which is also. Which is also the. The show having its cake and eating it too. Because most productions is when the urchins come back out in their supremes outfits. So you're laughing and loving that moment after having this big, sad moment of Howard Ashman's, like, okay, we had pathos. Now you're back to the. You're back to the camp. And it's at. While. And while the camp is happening, you're watching Seymour fully sign his life away to the devil. And it's so fucking good.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And that's the Faustian.

[Matt Koplik]

And ultimately getting so wrapped up in trying to keep the plant alive so that way he can have the success so he can have Audrey. He gets so wrapped up in it that he can't even enjoy that he's with Audrey anymore.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. He has a moment with her where he asks her, would you still like me if I wasn't successful? She says, I would still love you, Seymour. And he goes, great, then it's settled. I'm gonna kill the plant.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Well, she doesn't.

[Matt Koplik]

She doesn't know what that is.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

She has no idea what's going on. Like, it's a complete left turn for her. All of a sudden, like, you're gonna kill the plant.

[Matt Koplik]

He doesn't kill the plant, he just whips out a gun. He goes, then it's settled. What's settled? A gun. And he goes, and bullets. It's so fucking funny.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And I mean we understand as the audience because we are on this journey with him.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And I was thinking about this as I was walking. I was like, oh God. Like Mushnik and Audrey have no idea. Like this show is kind of like borderline, you know, kind of boring without for them until oh, suddenly there's a gun. Yeah. It's shocking because they.

[Matt Koplik]

It's never explained to Mushnik that the plant is eating people. That the plant is what's making it all happen. As far as he knows, Seymour killed Orin to get Audrey.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And doesn't want to believe it. Partly because he doesn't want to believe that the person he's adopted as a killer, but also like what would that do for business if it got out that my employee murdered somebody?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Which is the complete opposite of how Audrey responds to, you know, which I think is beautiful. That's how much she loves him. Uh huh.

[Matt Koplik]

The thing about Seymour is why Seymour and Audrey are such tragic figures and why we can all relate to them is they have such to quote the urchins low self image that they accept the attention that they get because they think it's what they deserve. And even when they're together while they're happy for a moment, like Seymour can't truly believe that she would love him as he is. And Audrey can't imagine that they. That there can be any non complications to her life even if she's with. With Seymour. And it's ultimately what does Seymour in right. That he just. He can't accept that even with her saying I would still love you. Like there's got. There's got to be all this other stuff to happen with it. He's got to make a plan. He can't just run away. And obviously Audrey too, being the ever knowing being that it is, understands that Seymour's trying to undo it and gets.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Audrey is able to snatters into its own vines.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly, exactly. Seduces lures Audrey into the shop late at night.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I couldn't sleep.

[Matt Koplik]

I took a salmon X. And that is when Audrey II tries to eat Audrey informs her. Come on in. Mushnik and Orin are right inside. And that is how Audrey learns about what has happened.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

The death.

[Matt Koplik]

The death.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

The murder.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And in the movie she survives. Yeah, she's battered, but she survives. And Seymour finds a way to actually kill Audrey too. And run away with Audrey back to where she wants to be. Somewhere that's green.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Her dreams come true.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, but the movie also has little wink, because in the Garden, a little.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Little Shop of Horrors. Audrey too, in the garden. Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

So it's still happening. They still got it. There's. They gotta make it happen all over again. Whereas in the musical, Audrey says, no, no, no. Feed me to the plant. Because you'll be able to still. You'll be able to nurture me. I'll be a part of you and I'll be with you always. And also I'll be somewhere that's green.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Cue music.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. And she dies. And he feeds her to the plant. And that is where he's a shell of himself. He is offered the chance to sell snippets of Audrey ii.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Little Audrey twos everywhere.

[Matt Koplik]

Bigger than Hula hoops.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Bigger than Hula hoops. Much bigger.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's when Seymour realizes, oh, this has been your plan all along. World's domination. I will destroy you.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Can't.

[Matt Koplik]

Can't kill it with a gun. Can't kill with an axe.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Suddenly, there's a machete.

[Matt Koplik]

Yup. Just like you do.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Like you do.

[Matt Koplik]

And so it's like that moment in Pulp Fiction when Bruce Willis is about to attack the rapist and the gimp and keeps going in the shop trying to find the right weapon. It starts with like a gun, then a little knife and like a giant ass samurai sword. And like, it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And he finally is like, here's the thing I'm gonna do. But, yeah. Seymour goes into the plants, finally says, I'll kill you from the inside.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And the plant just eats him.

[Matt Koplik]

Eats him. And they snip little Audrey II's and the urchins inform us that the plant.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

The plants took over the world.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And from Cleveland, Des Moines, Peoria, and this.

[Matt Koplik]

The New York and this theater and.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

This theater, Plants everywhere.

[Matt Koplik]

And they ask the audience, they may offer you fortune and fame, but please, don't feed the plants. And that's how we end. Don't feed the plants. Keeping the be. Horror movie elements of it. Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes, but that is why. But like, here's the thing. Everybody dies in the show. Do you want to talk about why the stage show version of the ending works and why it doesn't work for the film? Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Before we do that, let us take another break.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar.

[Matt Koplik]

You're the Nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire. So the stage show in the movie version. Yes. Let's talk about it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Let's do it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

They originally. They did film the sad ending.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And it's sad. The difference between a cow and a bean is. Anyway.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. So Frank Oz, the director. Excuse me, Frank Oz, the director of Little Shop of. Yes. The movie version said that his opinion was. In a stage show, at the end, the actors get to come out and take a bow. So even if they die, like, you're not terribly sad about it in a movie, you roll credits and it's just over. Yes, but I don't agree with that.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, you don't?

[Matt Koplik]

I don't agree that that's the reason why people didn't like it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Well, I think it's not just the curtain call. I see what Frank Oz is saying. But in the song Don't Feed the Plants, you see Seymour, Audrey, as you know, flowered Audrey ii, singing to the audience like, this is. This show has been a cautionary tale. And so we see our favorite characters again and we're told it's all just pretend. The story is just pretend. But, you know, it's. Here's your. Here's your moral. Whereas in the movie, I mean, I watched the director's cut. I showed my nephew the director's cut, and he was so sad. But like. And it's. It's very horrific. The puppetry in the movie is brilliant, but, like, you see that image of Rick Moranis getting eaten by Audrey, too. And it's slow and it's painful and it's gruesome. And you're just like, I'm very sad now because you love these characters so much.

[Matt Koplik]

But it's a different death in the movie is the thing, like, he. He dies on stage actively trying to fight Audrey, too.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Stupidly thinking he can kill her from the inside in the movie. He gets swallowed up at the end of Mean Green Mother.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Gets pulled up and just shoved in.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's almost torturous because he's literally like, bound.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And Audrey dies, and then it's Mean Green Mother, which becomes like ultra villainous of, oh, I killed the woman you love. And now I'm gonna sing a four minute song about how you can't stop me and I'm gonna kill you. It's just like. It's extra negative, but also it's every. There's a video essay somewhere on YouTube that I watched like two years ago and I can't find it anymore. Maybe they took it down. We're talking about, like, all the minor changes that they made in the movie, mostly just for timing purposes, but ultimately doesn't have the story add up in the same way that the stage show adds up to. And although, like, Seymour is not actively falling into a Faustian hole in the movie the way he is in the stage show, it's more that he. Things bigger than him keep happening. He is not actively participating in Mushnik's death the way he is in the stage show. He is not going as insane in the movie as he is in the stage show. It's all actually more. You're not watching him lose himself. You're watching him try to hold on to his humanity as things bigger than him keep happening. Whereas in the stage show, you're watching.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Him lose himself, truly lose his mind.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And he. And it's a. Not a comeuppance, but like, yeah, it's the lesson. It's the morality of, you know, you keep getting seduced by all the bigger, grander things. By cutting the bridge of Miksha and Harrit, we don't see the moment where Seymour truly signs his life away. Mikchel and Harrod is like 80 seconds in the movie. And again, it works for the timing of it all. But by losing the bridge, we lose the moment where Seymour makes the decision. We. We never see him in the movie other than decide that Orin needs to die because of his evilness. We never see Seymour after that, make constant decisions of just, I know this is wrong when I'm gonna keep doing it. We just watch everything snowball around him. And so him dying doesn't feel like a morality tale. It feels like a really just negative turn. We feel almost duped by it. And I agree with Frank Oz in the sense that, like, as a medium, film is. Even when you're doing something like Little Shop of Horrors, it's just automatically more realistic than on stage. The plant all of a sudden has veins that you can't see on stage. It's no longer Styrofoam. It's fucking there. And even though Ellen Green has line deliveries like Shayna, it's still a sweeter, simpler, more nuanced take than you would see on a stage performance where you have to project to the last row. Everything just becomes more humane. And so with that, we feel kind of what's going for Double Crossed by that kind of an ending in addition to all the small changes they have made. I don't think it's just the they don't get to take a bow at the end. So the audience feels bad.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

No, I agree. I agree completely, what you said.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it makes sense. So I do think that the movie's reworked ending works because they. And the reason they did it was they did their test screenings after, like, a year in production because they filmed this thing for a long time.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And they're like, we think we got it. Were very faithful to the show, but, like, we expanded. We make all these smart choices, and the people hate it. People hated it. They got, like, the worst responses they'd gotten in years. And they thought, like, oh, did we fail completely? And the answer was no. People hated the ending so much, and they thought that they were saved because the show was a big success everywhere. They thought that people just knew that that's how it ended. And people, no, it doesn't work this way. And so they made the ending that they did. A lot of originalists of the. The stage show don't like that ending, but I do think it works in that. In that version of the story.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It works for the. For a film. It really does. Because you want to see your hero come out on top and defeat the villain.

[Matt Koplik]

And if you haven't given us enough reasons for our hero to succumb in the end. Yeah, we're going to keep fighting against you. Like, you have to give us enough opportunities to see how he is devolving. Right. And the movie ultimately doesn't cuts a few of the moments that the stage show has. And I wonder if they thought, oh, it'll just be obvious. Right. Like, we don't. Whereas the stage show you keep sort of repeating to remind them. In a movie, you only need it, like, two or three times.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like, oh, we have it like, two times. Like, that should be enough. Right? It's like, no, no, you need, like, the six or seven.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Really? Like what you were saying about his bridge and Meekshaw and Harrod, and it's really cutting that from the movie. Really. And putting that towards his final battle with Audrey ii. That's his fight or flight moment. And that's like kind of just spiraling in my head.

[Matt Koplik]

Right.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's like, oh, no, you're absolutely right. He doesn't have that moment in Meekshell and Hair because it's not in the movie. So you need to see him have that fight or flight moment. He chooses to fight and he wins. But originally, if he loses, like, he chooses to fight and he loses, it makes me sad. Yeah, absolutely.

[Matt Koplik]

And you're the. You're also watching. The other thing is that in the movie version, the way that Audrey gets tricked by Audrey II into the shop is very different from how is in the stage show, because in the stage show, Audrey comes back to the store because she's just so worried about Seymour. And in the movie, she.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

She's packing. She's like, we're gonna run away.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, she's ready. And Audrey, too, in a. It's a fun moment of just, like, dials the phone with the vines, puts.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

The vine for the change, if there's any.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And. And.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And for those of you who don't know what we're talking about, there used to be these things called payphones, and you used quarters to use them, and sometimes they would spit change at you, and you got a free phone call. Yeah, not so much.

[Matt Koplik]

What's. What's it. What's a quarter?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I hate you.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's actually my favorite Nichols and May sketches of. He's trying to make a collect call, and the phone eats his dime before he can dial, and so he has to call the telephone company to get his dime back. It's so. It's so fun. And Elaine May plays, like, each new person up on the chain, and she's. She's so good.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Okay, so every time Matt mentions Elaine May on this podcast. Take a shot.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. Take a shot. I will make sure that everyone understands that she's the fucking tits. She actually. I don't think she ever sang, but, like, in her youth, would have been a fun Audrey.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

She would have gotten it. She would have gotten the heart and the ditziness and just so good. But, yeah, the way that it all happens in the movie is very different in terms of Audrey getting pulled into Audrey, too. And so even that, like, isn't tied to Seymour's descent. It's. It. It is a false hope that they're gonna be okay. She was worried about him for a moment, but now he's all locked together. They got it in control. They're gonna run away. She's not taking a salvinex and coming back to the shop looking for him. She is tricked, and it is tricked even more so than in the stage show. So it all just. It's these tiny little things just add up where, like, the. The equation is different now.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You don't realize it at first, but when you. When you look at it beat by beat, you're like, oh, this is a. This adds up differently. And it actually makes sense now that the Original ending feels wrong.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. In addition to just the medium of.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It all, I was introduced to the movie first before the stage show, and I remember seeing a community theater production of Little Shop of Horrors. I was in high school, and my friends and I went. I was like, oh, I love this musical. It's gonna be great. And then everybody died. And, like, I don't remember that happening. And as time went on, like, I've come to, like, really love this, the stage show ending. I appreciate the stage show ending for being what it is, and I appreciate the film ending for being what it is.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Whether we like it or not, it's what exists.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And it works for me.

[Matt Koplik]

I think. I think if you are forced by your studio to make a happy ending, Ashman and Oz did as well as anyone could.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And the proof is in the fact that that movie has lasted and has helped spread the message of the stage show and has been able to exist alongside it. I don't know anybody who got into the movie first, then saw the stage show and officially hates the stage show because of the ending, even if they're thrown by it. Like, you and I were, like, at the beginning, we still go, oh, no. Like, but that also works. The two. I think the two work side by side very well.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I can see why people. If you're people our age and the movie comes out in the movie theaters and you're familiar with Little Shop of Horrors and you see it, I could understand why going to see that movie like, that is not what. I know what it is. I can understand why people are. Would be upset by it. But because I was raised with the movie first, I appreciate it more.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's to go back to the Streetcar episode, which will be the week before this one. People will know that the studio, not just the studio, but the, you know, hays code, wanted them to basically change all of it. They're like, stanley can't rape Blanche. She. Stanley can't end up with Stella at the end. Like, he's got to get, like, all these things. We don't. We don't want Blanche to have a sexual past. All these things. And they're like, did you see the show?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Do you know what play we're doing?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Like, do you know what the fucking story is? Oh, and the cut. The homosexuality of Blanche's husband. So they kind of did half and half of, okay, we'll cut the homosexuality. We are keeping her past. And, like, my God, is she being punished for it anyway? So that should align with your morality Code like the rape has to happen, but we won't have Stella end up with Stanley in the end, even though that undermines the whole point of the play. But the assault of. If they were to change, if they were to cut the assault of Blanche from Stanley, they would have to overhaul the whole play and cut all of the tension between them, of the antagonism between them, of just Stanley's character. Right. It would. Audiences would maybe hate that moment in the movie if they had altered Stanley enough in just small ways that he was no longer the virile animal, that he was no longer the hot stud that we also can tell is dangerous and antagonistic towards poor Vivian Leigh. But they kept all of that. So the assault makes sense. It is inevitable. You know, like, that's what I mean in terms of like, the changes between the movie and the show of Seymour.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Whereas with Little Shop of Horrors, they don't really change the makeup of the show, but what they said was overhaul the ending. And the tragedy of changing the ending to a happy ending is they spent so much money on this King Kong style Audrey II attack on New York City where it's just. It's climbing the Statue of Liberty, it's eating people on the subway, it's breaking.

[Matt Koplik]

Into people's homes as they're watching the nightly news.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah, it's fun. It's fun. I would recommend you go on YouTube and watch it if you've never seen it, because it is a marvel to behold. But it's also like, kind of makes. If you're watching this whole movie, you kind of have hope for these characters and they all die at the end. Yeah, it just kind of makes you go, oh, man.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Yeah. Well. And I think in a lot of ways the Frank Oz movie is little less pulpy B movie than the stage show is. It's still funky. And they set a world where singing makes sense, but it's. It doesn't. It has like a grodyness to it and, and so much fun with that. But it's a little less like, I don't know, you watch the commercial for the stage show of. In the original 80s one, and they really lean into the like comic book darkness of it all, but, like making fun of it. So it's all. It's. It's a light tone for a dark subject matter. And the movie, I think, is a little more humane in a weird way.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. The parallels I was making to Streetcar was just like if they had agreed to the original Hayes Code ending with Blanche and Stanley they would have had to have made alterations throughout the entire movie to make that make sense. And the inverse of that actually happened with Little Shop where they made all these alterations to the lead up, which then actually made the ending not work as well.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I see.

[Matt Koplik]

And then having to do the studio approved ending, which actually makes the movie work quite well. Yeah. So what is your favorite song in this show?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, God. I mean, I've always loved Feed Me. I mean, I know I probably should say Suddenly Seymour since that's my drag name, but I've always just loved Feed Me. It's got such a. It's got a good groove. It's. It's. I just love it. I just love it. I love the. The tension between the two. The Seymour's. Should I. Should I not? Maybe I should do this. And just like the temp. Oh, I love a good Temptation song. I love a good Temptation song.

[Matt Koplik]

Like you need poor unfortunate souls Another Ashman Menken baby.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes, I love. I do love the. It's a little more subtle, but in Pippin, I do love. On the right track between the leading player and Pippin, I love one character wanting something who has a bigger agenda and the other character, like, oh, I don't know, maybe I should. I. But like at the end of the song, they are on the same page and that's what Feed Me does. I think it's. I love a good villain song. I really, really do.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because they have fun with it too, and they revel in it. There was. There's another video on YouTube about like how Disney has given up on the. On the actual villain. It's always like the misunderstood villain or things like that. Like. No, no. Back in the day when you had an Ursula or a scar, they were like, no, I want to fuck shit up and I'm going to have fun with it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So it's the campiness of it all. And yeah, it has a built. Musically, it keeps shifting, which is great. It flips it on its head and plot wise, it moves shit along. There is a.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It is the moment we have been waiting for. Everybody, if you. Whether you have seen Little Shop or not, you know that this is a musical about a man eating plant. And so what you want to see is a singing man eating plant puppet. And Feed Me is the moment and it delights, delivers. It's climactic. That's why. I mean, it's not the Act 1 finale, but it is. What is it? What's the term? Penultimate? You know?

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It gets you to that point.

[Matt Koplik]

You.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It gets Audrey 2, gets Seymour on board, and it gets the audience on board. Like, all right, death, destruction, let's go. Bring on the blood.

[Matt Koplik]

I think if. If Ashman and Menken were not as good as they were, and if they. Maybe if they were vulnerable to more bombastic voices in the rehearsal room, they would end it with Feed Me. Yeah, it's a very. I. I don't mean to keep sort of harking back to dead horses here, but it is like a wild horn esque ending to end on Feed Me and not on. Not just the murder, but the aftermath of Orin's death.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because they end it with a foreboding reprise.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I think that's the point, though.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. And it's exactly where it should end. But I think there are some people who, if not now, but if. When this was in development, if they were like, sitting in on rehearsals or demos of this would have been like, you really should end on a big bang. So, like, end with that song, you know. Oh, well, you have. You have your. Your twist and your cliffhanger of he's gonna gotta go kill this guy now. And musically, it ends so big. So, like, finale. And you would have. But I'm glad that. I don't know if there's anybody in the room for it, but I'm glad if there were. Asher and Meghan were like, no, we're not doing that.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

But that's. It's story first.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, Always Story and character. Always.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I think I am gonna be basic here and say that my favorite song is Somewhere that's Green.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Well, it is a perfect I Want song.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Ashwin and Menken wrote two perfect I Want songs. Somewhere that's green and somewhere that's wet.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's the same. Oh, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Part of the world. So you. You've done a mashup of the two.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I have done a mashup of the two.

[Matt Koplik]

I would like to do my own mashup of the two at some point. I feel like it's the gift that keeps on giving. Because they are structurally very much the same. Yes, there is a. They are not the same melody, but there's a musicality to it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

There's a similarity to the melody. There's a similarity to the.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, to the structure of the lyrics in terms of how they scan. It's also very similar.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And it's very similar to the melody, too. Like part of that world.

[Matt Koplik]

Somewhere that's green. It's somewhere that's green and part of.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah, I mean, but like, they go, really? And I had my music director, Mr. Mark Hartman, when we created this mashup. You can really play the piano intro of someone that's green and part of that world. And they blend really beautifully together. I'll send it to you. It's really.

[Matt Koplik]

You have sent it to me. I've watched it. It's great.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I meant just the music of it.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

But I'm great.

[Matt Koplik]

You're wonderful, baby. But that's. I talked about sort of how that song is insanely brilliant because it's. It is the first moment in the show where we actually, like, stop everything and just let a character sing about their wants. The only time we ever get something close to that is Seymour in Skid Row. But it's short and it We.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

You get the information you need.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Somewhere that. Somewhere. That screen introduces Audrey's big vision, her big want.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And the. What makes the song funny is that all the things she wants are so material.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And so also the timeliness of it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

The dated desires.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is what. Materialism is dated. Because what we want 10 years ago is not what we want now. And what's considered impressive 20 years ago is not considered impressive now. Like, the biggest punchline that everybody loves is the. We snuggle watching Lucy on her big enormous 12 inch screen or 10 inch screen.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's 12.

[Matt Koplik]

12. 12 inch screen. And by the 80s, like, you already have giant widescreen TVs. Yeah. Surround sound, things like that.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

That's why we laugh. When she. I couldn't sleep. I took a Salman X. And the audience, like, you can hear Grandma on the back. I remember Salmanext.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And. And even in her intro, first we're told we are given the permission to laugh just by the cleverness of the rhyme. I know Seymour's the greatest, but I'm dating a semi sadist. Always gets a laugh.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

There is her. I was, you know, reading up on the Wikipedia. They. As they talk about Audrey, like we meet Audrey, whose fashion choices could be known as tacky.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

You know, so it's like, okay, here's this woman who dresses tacky, but she thinks she looks beautiful. And she is beautiful.

[Matt Koplik]

She is inside and out. But someone on the Discord said that they would love it if we didn't cast like, quote unquote, hot women as Audrey in the same way we cast Seymour. I think that it's not so much that Audrey has to be hot, but she has to be someone who is constantly objectified.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And whether we want to admit it or not. There are certain attributes that our society has decided are objectifiable.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I think, I mean, I think a good look at the casting of Sarah Hyland who is a petite, young, beautiful young lady. But then you look at someone like Jinkx Monsoon who is also beautiful but maybe a little more of a broad.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

You know, like both work and both have such different approaches to playing Audrey. Look at Ellen Greene and Tammy Blanchard. Both work.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And it's not so much of any kind of body type or anything, but the way that Audrey dresses is very tight and revealing and there's, there's a point to it. There's even a fucking punchline to it in Act 2 when she, when she talks about the gutter and how she used to wear tacky outfits. Not nice spot. Yeah, not. It's a nice spot. Not nice ones like this. And the whole point, I mean in the original movie and in the original stage show, she's wearing like a leopard print skin tight dress where her boobs are almost falling out. Basically Jessica Rabbit pretty much, but like Jessica Rabbit covered in gum. Like it's just, but you know, like it's, it's, it's, it's a come rack of a dress. And so her saying like that this one is nice is the audience being like, hahahaha. Of course, in this revival she's wearing, you know, yes, it's tight, it's revealing, but it's a black dress. It's, it's relatively tasteful and so the joke is a little less funny. But she is a person who is objectified and it's, and yes, it doesn't matter who you are as a woman, like this misogynistic world we live in, you're gonna get objectified, you're gonna get catcalled. But Audrey is the epitome of the battered and just abused individual and just considered not a person because of how she looks and how she presents herself, but with somewhere that's green, you know, she is presented tacky and her wants are all materialistic things, but it's rooted in just a wanting of something that she. Something that's not.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

She wants the, the traditional 1950s American dream. Yeah. She wants the little house in a suburb with a white picket fence, with a lawn, with a husband and her kids. That is all she really at the heart of it, yes. She wants the materialistic things, but at the heart of it she wants what everybody wants.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but. And so that's what makes the song start off funny and then get sad because it's all the. It's the 12 inch screen, it's the plastic on the furniture and it's the monologue. She talks about how the houses are so neat and clean and they all look just alike. And there's an amazing line delivery that Ellen Green gives in the 2015 City Center Revival that they did with Jake Gyllenhaal. First thing she does is she goes, not fancy like Levittown. And everybody fucking laughs. And then she goes, because they. All the houses are so fancy, they all look just alike. And there's a long pause and she goes, oh, I dream about it all the time and it just fucking ruins me because you hear the exhaustion of this has been her dream for years. And it's the Kimmy Schmidt I'm not really here mentality of when she's with Orin to get through it, she'll close her eyes and just think about it. And it's just so devastating and the music is so light and, and, and sweet and it's all just so moving and. And again, funny for the first half because of the specificity of all the things she's talking about and how a. It does. It's all materialistic but also aged because it was already dated in 1982. She's talking about 1950s things. So again it's.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Levittown is still funny still.

[Matt Koplik]

Even if you don't know what Levittown is or was just the name as.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

A kid I was like, there's a place called Leathertown.

[Matt Koplik]

That's what I always thought. Yeah. Levittown is either in Long island or it's in New Jersey.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's New Jersey.

[Matt Koplik]

It's in New Jersey. Yeah. Which was at the time like a very traditional suburb. And it's not really become such as as much, but like it's also just a funny name.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Levittown.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Not fancy like Levittown.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I think a good. I think a good Audrey should make that name land. Don't go not fancy like Levittown. It's not fancy like Levittown. It's really make it like I can't even say it too loudly because I, I wouldn't dream of ever wanting to live there.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I think you want to play Audrey.

[Matt Koplik]

I would play all of these roles. Are you fucking kidding me?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Here's my question for you.

[Matt Koplik]

I want to be an urchin. Are you kidding me?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh my God. What I love about both the movie and the stage show is they never really explain the urchins. Like we know who they are. They Live in this world. But sometimes they come out dressed as the Supremes. Yeah, sometimes they come out and they're, like, singing backup for Audrey ii. Like, who are these mystical backup singers who are street urchins, but they're also the Supremes.

[Matt Koplik]

I think that they. They. It is established they are outside of the story at the very beginning and then will be in it when it's convenient. But it's also kind of one of those things that happens in musicals of the. Don't worry about it. It's. It's work. Like, it keeps moving, and it's always just so good. Don't think about it too much.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right, Exactly. Don't think about it too much. But they are. They're there to kind of remind you, say, hey, this is fun.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And in the movie, I think what makes it work so well is that they have fun with it visually, with them.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Some fun now.

[Matt Koplik]

Some fun now. The opening number, even.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, so I want to talk about the movie urchins for a little bit and. And basically how they're used before we do that, let's take another break. Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar.

[Matt Koplik]

You're the nimble tread of the feet. And we're back. The movie. First of all, I want to say these names. Tashina Arnold, Tisha Campbell and Michelle Weeks. Brava. They were between the ages of 16 and 19 when they filmed this movie. Isn't it crazy? And they are the absolute pinnacle of these roles. They sound incredible. Some people I talk to hate when I say, like, oh, they eat. But, like, when I say they leave no crumbs vocally. They leave no crumbs vocally. To sound that amazing at that young of an age and to just set the bar so unreachable. They piss all over that soundstage and make us mop it up. And it's. And we say, thank you.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

You're right. They set the bar. And now when every time you go see a production, all these young people who play the urchins, they step up.

[Matt Koplik]

They do. They.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

They have to.

[Matt Koplik]

There's. I've never seen a production of a professional production of Little Shop where the urchins don't mop it up. Because they know that, as you said, they know that they have to.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Have you seen the clips of the original 1982 Off Broadway cast performing Don't Feed the Plants? And it's you know, subsequent to the events. You have Jazz with Jazz. Witness. Sorry, people. It's wild to me.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, it's. It's. It's the fun of the show. Right. It's intentional that people always like to post that of the. Like when you upstage with your one line. But the whole point was that they're getting to the end and it's all very serious.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And that one girl has to go, ha.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Just witness. It's just. It's so. It's like not. It's not good, but it's not bad.

[Matt Koplik]

It's just wild. It's bold is what it is. And it happens in a very specific moment and briefly. And they. And they always kind of acknowledge it on stage there you. They don't do it in this revival, but in that original. If you watch clips of different productions overseen by Ashman, including that. That clip in particular comes from the Japanese broadcast of the international production. And the other Urchins, like, they respond to it of just like a little quick of. But they keep going. And then she does it one more time like, Jesus fucking Christ, with this one. And then they keep going. But, yeah, the urchins have always been the vocal high point of the show. But it was a little more light Supremes Y in the original iteration, like the opening number in the 82 production and subsequent versions, like, it's. They don't have that bridge of the, oh, here it comes, baby. That was for the movie. And that was added because they were like, we need more time for the credits. So they asked Ashwin and Meghan to create something. And then Bob Gaudio of the Four Seasons oversaw all of their music. So it's bold. It's brash. In fact, that vamp that we know from the movie, it's not in the stage show.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

That was added. But it gives you the expectation for this movie of, okay, it's a musical. Get ready. And also has that amazing button of, you know, you have the scroll of the text on the 21st day of the month of September.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Merry Star Wars.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. And the whole thing starts to look like the Galaxy until on the button, a fucking beer bottle gets thrown into a. Into a puddle, and you realize it's Skid Row. Yes, it's Skid Row, which. The into the woods movie steals that, by the way. I know. I think I mentioned it before.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I have not seen the into the woods movie in a while. I have to go back and watch it.

[Matt Koplik]

In the into the woods movie, you get sort of this cloudy gray sky and you hear James Corden, Once Upon a Time. And then the badam. Anna Kendrick's foot steps into frame and steps into the gray. And you realize she's stepping into water that's reflecting the sky. And that's the little shot. They steal that from the little shot movie. But also, like, if you're gonna steal something, steal that. It's great. But they. So you have that, which already tells you. Okay, like, we're in a skid row dirty area. It's also gonna be funny with things coming at you. And the urchins come out in their blue outfits looking awesome. And they're popping up in different sections. Like, they. They're on the sidewalk, then they're on a fire escape. And they're singing to everybody. And no one can hear them.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So you're already. You're already understanding. When they sing as a trio, no one's gonna.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's a fantasy.

[Matt Koplik]

It's happening outside of.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's for us.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. We're the only ones who can see them doing this. And to further emphasize the point, it starts to rain. They're on the sidewalk dancing, not getting wet. And they do this moment that is so intentional where they. It's the ba da da da da da da. And then they step off the sidewalk onto the street into the rain and still don't get wet.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Brilliant. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm just being like, take reality and throw it out there. This is a musical. And as you said, like, these urchins are existing outside of the. Of the story. At times they insert themselves. Sometimes it's for us. They even go into the shop and they're singing at Vincent Gardenia. He can't see them. They. He. They. Seymour can't see them. They only really can be seen in scenes. Once they start singing, they're not really part of the story anymore. They're the Greek chorus. And they. And by establishing that visual vocabulary, anytime they pop up, like in the Feed Me reprise, the Come On, Come on, and they just sort of pop in and out like, we buy it. We know. We know that. That's what they do. Yeah. And it's so good.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's why it's a perfect musical.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. And the musical, though, they do that, but it's not, like, established quite as officially.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

They do it in the movie with that.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It translates better in the film.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. They're also used less frequently in the film. They're only in, I think, two scenes in the movie. The rest of the time they're just singing.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

The stage Show. They are far more a part of the story, and they interact with people a lot more.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right. And in the stage show, they have a lot more. They're very involved in the Meekshall inherit.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

You know, there's the Seymour section, and then they bring on Mrs. Loose, and then they take her off, and then they sing their section. There's Seymour and they bring. It's. They're much more involved. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Somebody wanted on the Discord just for us to acknowledge how brilliant it is that the actor who plays Orin Scivello plays all of these people who are offering Seymour contracts. They come off stage, come back on a new outfit.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Let me tell you something. Tell me, baby. That is a bitch of a song. Having played Orin Scivella on all those people I play. It was so Oren plays in that song. He plays Bernstein, Mrs. Loose and Skip Snip. And you literally have maybe 30 to 45 seconds to do complete costume change now. It was just. It's just. It's. It was a lot. It's a lot.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm sure it's a. It's a track that's actually not fun, though. But it's a track that's not a princess track. Even though you're not the lead, you come on stage a lot because before you're even Oren, you are the first customer. Yeah. I couldn't help but notice that strange and interesting plan.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I wouldn't call it a princess track, but, like, what's brilliant, Unless you're Seymour. Seymour really is on stage for, I would say, 90% of the show. Everybody else has good breathing time off stage, even Audrey. But every track has to, like, meet a certain level of energy. And playing Oren and all the characters that he plays, it takes a lot of energy. So in that song Meek Shall Inherit, you do. You've got to put on this big characterization. Then you run off stage, but you do not have time to breathe because you got to put on drag for Mrs. Loose. Yeah. And have it be a completely different character. And it is very artistically satisfying. And I've never felt more exhausted after a song that's just not a great song. Just my opinion.

[Matt Koplik]

You don't like that song.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I don't think it's a great. Listen, I. I'm gonna say something. I think there are some skips on the Little Shop. It's a perfect musical, but some songs are skips. Are you gonna listen to Callback in the Morning? Will you call back in the morning? Won't you. Are you gonna Listen to that.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, that's the. There's a difference between listening to the recording and watching the show.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right? I agree. I agree. I'm not exactly gonna, like. I'm never in the mood to say, you know what? I want to listen. I can't get this song out of my head. It's called Now. It's just the Gas.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I never.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I never listen to now when I'm not watching the show.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's a skip, so.

[Matt Koplik]

Because it's a. It's a song that's meant to be seen.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes. It's a song that's meant to be seen. It's a song that is meant to further the plot of the. Like the Meek Shell inherit. It's not a song, though I will say the. The melody of the Meek Ellen Harrit does it has a good melody to it.

[Matt Koplik]

I listen to Meek Shell and Harrit frequently. I do think it's a good song. I think it's a long. It's probably the long. That and Feed Me are probably the two longest songs in the show. And unlike Feed Me, Michelin Harrit has a bridge that's slow. Like, it's not a. It's not a runaway train in the way that Feed Me is. And so you have to really want to sit down and listen to it. It's not the boppy bop, or at least not the whole time. What is a score that you think has no skips? If you were to just, like, sit down and listen to it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like a whole score where you're like, oh, I can listen to that whole cast recording and never skip a song.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, God.

[Matt Koplik]

Because I don't know if I can tell you one.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Hmm. I. I really. I really like the Bat Boy score. If we're sticking. I do need expression on my mind because it's. It's not as perfect a musical as Little Shop of Horrors. That might be a controversial statement, but I love Bat Boy.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't think we have Bat Boy without Little Shop of Horrors.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I agree. I agree. I think, you know, Bat Boy is there because we have. I think you're in town. I think Bat Boy exists because Little Shop of Horrors happened. Absolutely. I don't know if there is a show that has no skips.

[Matt Koplik]

That's the thing. And I. So when we talk about having skips in this show in terms of just sitting down and listening to. To the score, that's not a fault of the show. Some songs are meant to be performed, not meant to be listened to. And yeah. That's also the thing about comedic shows is that some songs are not as funny out of context.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Spelling Bee has songs that I don't think are as good when you listen to them on their own. You have to watch it in context of the show in order to really enjoy it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I think a show like Les Mis you can listen to from start to finish because, well, there's a lot of the same motifs and melodies in there, you know, that's.

[Matt Koplik]

But also Les Mis is non stop music.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Well, that's true.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's very, very true.

[Matt Koplik]

But also, I don't know, like, if I'm never stopping to listen to the bishop in the prologue, I'm only listening to him if I'm this. If I'm choosing to listen to the entire prologue.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

What do you mean? You don't go walking around town saying, come and serve or you are weary.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't listen to the 8abc Cafe all that much. I know. I know every note of that show. But there are certain things, like, I'm making it a point to listen to and things that I'm like, bye.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Suddenly, Les Mis has become like the swing musical.

[Matt Koplik]

I want someone to do a jazz version of certain songs from Les Mis.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

What is. What is your least favorite song in.

[Matt Koplik]

The Little Shop of Horrors in terms of listening to it on its own or within context of the show?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Either.

[Matt Koplik]

I think for me, you know, they're probably one of the same. Callback in the Morning and Close to Renovation are catchy enough and short enough that if I am sitting down and listening to it and making it a choice to try to not skip, I can get through it pretty quickly.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And they. In the. In the context of the show, totally, like, lovely. And I. And I am here for it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

What's fascinating about that, just going off. What you're saying here is in the original Off Broadway recording with Ellen in Green, they did not record Callback in the Morning. What they did was they put Closed for innovation after. Now it's just the gas. Just to give a juxtaposition of the weirdness that is now it's just the gas. And now we're close for Renovation. Yeah, it's got more of a traditional upbeat act two feeling. Whereas Callback in the Morning, starting act two, it. There's a. There's an eeriness to it. It's a fascinating song, but it's eerie.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's also. I would imagine that 82 recording it was heavily influenced by David Geffen being one of the main producers of the Off Broadway production.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Who was very big about the cast recording selling like pop albums. It's why the Dreamgirls Broadway cast recording is so truncated, because he wanted each song to be a radio play.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And I mean, when it comes to. And I got to know Dreamgirls from the original cast recording first, so I was actually surprised to hear that it was majority song. I was like, oh, fake your way to the top is actually five minutes long. Cadillac car is nine minutes. Like, what is this? I only know it from their very short moments. But I would imagine that cutting callback in the morning and putting close renovation where it was was him being like, we want this listening experience to be a nice structure. Right.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

They wanted to give it like a more of a through line.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly, exactly. But that being said, I think that now it's just the gas is the song that I skip the most on the recording. And when I'm watching the show, I enjoy it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes. But.

[Matt Koplik]

And it depends on the performer, because I. Funnily enough, when I watched Christian Borrell do it, it was on a night where the audience was dead.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, really?

[Matt Koplik]

So he. It was He. And he was supposedly speeding through it because he could tell that the audience was dead, but it still kind of felt like it went on too long. And then I saw James Carpinello. Is that his name? I saw him do it with Andrew Barth Feldman. And he did not milk it too much, but I was like, oh, this is a little longer than I remembered it being. And so in context of the show, it's the one that I probably am looking forward to the least, but I don't dislike it. Again, it's a perfect show and it makes sense to have it there.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right. Like, I guess the whole point of this conversation is you can be a perfect musical, but you can also still have songs that are just not great songs that serve the story. But you don't necessarily. Not every song has to be a bop.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It serves its purpose in the moment and sounds what needs to sound like. And I think I said this on the Diana episode with our beloved John Miscavige. That is a show that is the perfect example of why you don't want every song in your show to be a bop.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

No. Right. Not every song needs to be an 11 o' clock number.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. When Diana is suffering from postpartum depression and thinking about killing herself, the last thing you should be thinking in the audience is, I want to dance to this and Little Shop. Like, there are moments where you don't want to be sitting there tapping your toes. Oran dying is not meant for you to tap your toes. It's also, like. It is meant for you to laugh at, but also, in order for it to be ridiculous, the music kind of has to be over the top.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah. And that's why I get those dramatic chords. Are you dumb or hard of hearing or relieved?

[Matt Koplik]

My end is nearing? It's. Yeah, it's very. It's very. Yeah, I said over the top. I was trying to think overly dramatic. Melodramatic.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Melodramatic. What I've always loved, too. Like, his final question, are you satisfied? I laugh with, like, are you satisfied? And then it kind of just makes you go, oh, am I satisfied by this? Like, he's dying. Like, it's very funny. It's very melodramatic. But. But am I satisfied?

[Matt Koplik]

I am. That's where I'm rubbing my nipples, baby. I'm like, yeah, snuff it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Always coming back to the Eagle, isn't it?

[Matt Koplik]

And always it's truly snuff. That girl. I say, I love snuff that.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

That's a terrible thing to say. That's Urine Town right there.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. No, it's. It's. It's a fun song. I also just love look at her there with her heart full of pride. With her head full of hair or what? It's.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah, look at her there. Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

With her head full of hair. I just love that line of like.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

But I've had enough of each hair again.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I just love the line. Her head full of hair. Because it's almost like. I can't think of anything negative. Say you with your. Your head full of hair. Yeah, it's very That. I also just love the joke at the end where they're doing the snapping and they can't. Like, they start and it gets too complicated, so they can't.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's bum and then just.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah. I'm looking forward to it at Encore. I'm hoping.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm hoping they nail it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's a good time to do Urinetown.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure is. It's a hard. That's a hard show to actually do. Well, because that's another show that I think is very strongly written.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

But unlike Little Shop, its tone is actually even trickier.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I agree. Well, yes. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I think, because it's far more meta in a way that Little Shop isn't.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes. It's real. It's trying to. Whereas I think Little Shop of Horrors is a character study. About humanity. Urinetown is a story about society. It's holding up the mirror to society. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And also, characters in Urinetown are aware that they're in a musical. Nobody in Little Shop is. And it's really hard to make that land consistently.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

You can only break the fourth wall so many times for the audience is like, okay, enough already. And I think Little Shot Urinetown is really good at maintaining that. But if you have a director who doesn't understand tone, like, I have seen a few productions of year in town where the director just doesn't understand. And my God, does that show go by slowly.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

It is not bulletproof. Little Shop is as close to bulletproof as you can get.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah. You just going back to the writer's note at the beginning of the script. Play it honestly and sincerely. Do not play it for the laughs and the hyucks. Exactly. I.

[Matt Koplik]

Would like us to focus on actors for a bit.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Great.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeesh. So we can get into the hot Seymour discussion in a second, which was very much like the number one thing asked on the Discord.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Chat on the Discord.

[Matt Koplik]

But because this is the hot take that somebody wrote. And I was like, oh, let's absolutely address this. Because I thought it was just known and factual that Ellen Green is definitive and amazing as Audrey.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes. I was like, oh, she's the mold.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. But I'm like, are there people out there other than this one person on the Discord who disagree? And I would like to kind of talk about it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Okay, so what is this person on the Discord saying that Ellen Green is overhyped as Audrey?

[Matt Koplik]

No, they do not use the words overhyped. I want to make sure. Okay, here is my. This is. Hi, Declan. Declan writes. Here's my perhaps controversial question. Is Ellen Green good? Was she ever good? Or are we all just enamored by how much she's doing? I don't know what that last one means about. Are we enamored by how much she's doing? Because she doesn't.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Well, she's a fascinating performer who makes unique choices.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. She's an alien.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And it. And ended up being perfectly tuned to Audrey. She wasn't the first choice for the role in the original production.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I remember this.

[Matt Koplik]

So it was down to Ellen Green and Lee Wilcoff.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And Faith Prince and Nathan Lane.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

That's right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Faith was who they actually offered it to first. And Faith couldn't do it because she had booked an industrial and they wouldn't let her out of her contract. Faith wanted. Faith ended up doing the show later on.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

She was a replacement.

[Matt Koplik]

She was a replacement. When it got down to Nathan Lane and Lee Wilcoff, they determined that Nathan was funnier. But you bought the romance from Lee more. And this wasn't a gay thing. They didn't know if Nathan was gay or not. But I would argue that that makes sense because I never have gotten romance from Nathan Lane in any show he's ever done. Even when he and Faith eventually did do Guys and Dolls together. And imagine if they had predated Guys and Dolls a little shot together. Their. Their romance in Guys and Dolls was never, like, oh, yeah, like, their romance is so sweet. They. It was comic. It was cartoon level.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And the moment of gravity in that romance with Faith was in sumi. When she has, like, the very end, she goes, I could honestly die. The sweetness comes from her. I don't think it comes from Nathan. Nathan is really good at finding the laugh, getting an audience on his side and finding pathos. But never, like, romance. Even in Birdcage, it makes sense that he and Robin Williams have been together for 25 years. They are at the point where, like, it's a given that I love you. We're not lovebirds anymore. We're not passionate anymore. But, like, yeah, you're my person. So they're at that point in their lives. If we were watching Robin Williams and Nathan Lane at the start of their relationship, I think we would be a different story. Yeah. Be like, I don't buy it. They're not. Can't keep their hands off each other. So I get why Lee was then chosen because they were like, I buy that. He loves her so much.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right. So. But back to Ellen Green.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

This person, I think it's. I can't imagine a world without Ellen Green as Audrey. I. I don't want to. I. Because it always comes. Every Audrey I've seen has done a really, really good job. But there's just something so unique about Ellen Green that it's. You just. You have to acknowledge the fact that it is brilliant. You do not have to like it, but it has stood the test of time where she can still play it 40 years later.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

You know, with Jake Gyllenhaal, of all.

[Matt Koplik]

People, I think, to say, are we enamored with how much she's doing? I guess that is talking about later public performances she's done of the role and of certain songs where, we'll be honest, the voice isn't what it used to be.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Fair.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know how trained she was as a vocalist. But like even the Tonight show performance she does to promote the movie and she sings Suddenly Seymour, she's already starting to get a bit more gospel shouty than she was at the beginning of her time.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Even in the hey Mr. Producer VHS. It's a little. It's not, it's not her best, it's.

[Matt Koplik]

Not her best vocal. I think where we are able to buy it is that Ellen Green, as Audrey has always, whenever she sings, truly feels like an extension of self. So it doesn't feel. She sounds not great, but it never feels ridiculous. You watch it come out of her body like it's just. This is what's coming out right now.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's, it's unapologetic in that respect. And she's so tuned into the character that, I don't know, it doesn't, it doesn't feel like we're watching Nomi Malone and Showgirls go different places.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right. I think because the character of Audrey, whose fashion choices are tacky, but she thinks it looks nice. So this character already has, maybe has a different perspective than what everybody else might see the world as. So I suppose you could justify that, you know, her vocal choices, her physical choices as a part of that, as an extension of that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Would you agree?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I think also what she does is, which is ultimately what Jennifer Simard does with all of her comedies. She makes very odd, specific decisions in how she's going to interpret the role. So she does the high pitched voice. She does like a little bit of a lisp even. And she does kind of a cupidoll walk, but she never goes further than that. She doesn't go big. She doesn't go.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's contained.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, exactly. It's like I've already made two odd decisions. Everything else then has to be grounded.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I think if you look back, if you think about the, the era of like the 60s and the 70s and 80s of actresses that have come from there. Think about my first thought as Bernadette Peters and Carol Channing and Elaine Stritch, these are. And Patti LuPone, these are Broadway theater actresses who have a uniqueness to them that I might say something controversial we do not see as often today. We don't, I think, and I'm not trying, I'm not saying anyone is not talented or worthy of the successes that they, they've achieved in their time on stage on Broadway. But there is a lot more blandness to a lot of Broadway performers today, male and female. And so I tend to celebrate unique qualities like Ellen Green, because, yeah, they're a little weird, but theater people are weird. And so just seeing unique choices, it makes me excited because it should be fresh. I do not want to see cookie cutter versions of the same thing over and over again. And I think that's why we see Carol Channing and Bernadette peters and Patti LuPone and Elaine stretch and Ellen Greene succeed because they are not cookie cutter.

[Matt Koplik]

There's no one else like them.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Correct.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, you hire them for them and. But also, like, Ellen Green is an actress and you watch that in how she does things. I've already mentioned this, but go on YouTube, watch the city center videos of her doing somewhere that's Green. And like, yes, it's not as. Not as light as it was when she was in her 30s in 1982, doing it off Broadway. And then again in London. There's a great video of her doing it in London somewhere. That's Green. And it's very well sung. The voice starts to go away after a time. She figures it out for, you know, 65 or however old she is in that city center one. But the stillness she gives it it she does not over. She never over sings it. She. The monologue she does, she takes her time. And it is so devastating in a way that I've watched. The Discord Channel has a link to a bunch of content to watch if you want to sort of get up to date for these episodes. And there are a couple of different boots of the most recent Little Shop of different Audreys and Seymour's. And I watched some of Joy Woods, I watched some of Constance Wu, I watched Lena hall, all good in their own ways. And I saw Sarah Hyland just do it good in her own way. I saw Tammy Blanchard do it good in her own way. But, like, some of them are a little too prettily sung and they don't feel like an extension of character. They feel like I am a trained singer right now and like no one's doing a bad job. It's just they don't take their time with the monologue. They don't actually get into the gutter, one might say. And they also all play Audrey a little too straight, in my opinion. Or rather just say they do the same thing Ellen does in terms of I'm grounding the character, but they don't make another choice outside of that. They don't find another unique quality about her to keep in line with the campy tone of the show, of the grandeur of the show. It's just like, well, no, she's a person and I'm gonna treat her with respect. I'm like, sure, but there's gotta be something off the. With her, because there's something off with every character in this show.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah. There's gotta be a reason why they choose to live in this world. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Lines like Shaina or. Or even the. Don't tell us you got tied up. No, just handcuffed a little. Like they. Just like they. I've watched each actress, like, not land that joke because they play it. So they go, no, just handcuffed a little. A little. I'm like, you. You don't have to talk down to Audrey to make her funny.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

But just play the honesty.

[Matt Koplik]

Play the honesty.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Like, just say it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, but there's. There has to be a tad of the ridiculous about her in order for the honesty to be funny.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Do you know? So I'm gonna give a shout out to my friend Allison Shoemaker, who played Audrey when we did our student directed production of Little Shop of Horrors.

[Matt Koplik]

Hey.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And that line. Yeah, that got a laugh.

[Matt Koplik]

But where she got a bit bigger.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Laugh was what was the line when she says, if this is. If this is what he does to me when he likes me, imagine what he would do if he ever got mad. And the way I did that did not do that justice. But the way she delivered that line, it got a huge roaring laughter.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Because it's. It's dark. But she played it very, very honestly. She wasn't playing for the joke. Yeah, but the way she did, like, so you can. You can find ways to interpret these lines by still playing the honesty. And if you're gonna play the joke, it's never gonna. You're never gonna. Don't play it for the rim shot.

[Matt Koplik]

Think. Think about it also the scene before we meet Orin and Audrey and Seymour in the shop. And now this. The plan's getting successful. And when Mushnik is yelling at Seymour because he. Something about the Shiva count, forgot about the Shiva account. And Audrey says, like, I think that Mr. Mushnik is too hot on you. And they're talking about how he's like, oh, well, you know, he gave me bread and water and all that stuff and a nice place to sleep under the counter. All these things. And there's a beat. And the way Ellen Green goes, you know, Seymour, I think you should raise your expectations.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's good. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

She's not saying, like, that's stupid. She's just going, everything you just said, I Think you should raise your expectations. And then even when they go. When she's like, you should go out and go shopping. And he's like, well, I don't have style like you do. She's like, well, I'll go with you. Goes you be seen in public with me? Sure, yeah. In someplace public, like a department store.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Tonight. Oh, I can't tonight. It's. It's. It's. She's not doing. She's not doing broad vaudeville comedy. She is doing honesty with. I said with a touch of the ridiculous.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes, it is fun. It's just funny if you're gonna be up here and then if you're settling down here. It's funny.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, it is what Jessica Lange is always doing now, but for drama, which again, everyone will know this already from the Streetcar episode, but I talked about how her. Blanche, when you watch that TV movie, you're like, oh, that is how we got Ryan Murphy. Jessica Lange, today of Everything's Up Here, she's a little bit Southern all the time. And then when something's really serious, she drops an octave, but she plays it for like, there's not gonna be a pool, you stupid slut. And that. See, that's funny, but it's not meant to be funny. I know.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

That makes me laugh.

[Matt Koplik]

It makes me laugh. But I. So someone also asked, like, if you could pair up any Audrey's and Seymour's who've already done it, who would you want to see? Oh, and I'm trying to. So I'm gonna go with just this current production. Okay. Yeah. Of no one I haven't seen either. But just from everything I've been told from people involved with the production and people who've seen it, I have been told that Evan Rachel Wood is the best Audrey that they've had closest to Ellen in terms of just the honesty, but also the ridiculous, and sings it beautifully. And then everyone also said that Gideon Glick was the best. Seymour.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

He was wonderful. I saw Gideon do it. This is before the pandemic, and I just. He was wonderful. He's perfect for the role. He is a good blend of he's a hot actor, but he's also geeky character actor. And that works well. Gideon.

[Matt Koplik]

Gideon is a beautiful man.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

He is a beautiful man.

[Matt Koplik]

Just look at his Instagram, if you want. And even, like, the look at the.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Body of his work, from Spring Awakening to the marvelous Mrs. Maisel. Like, he plays these kind of little off.

[Matt Koplik]

He's always playing underdogs. Yeah. But even, like, the promo photos for when significant other came to Broadway, they had these photos of him that were meant to sort of be sad. I was like, I'm sorry, that's a beautiful shot, that's a beautiful boy. But his features are not that again. We as a society for decades now have cultivated is like, that is a leading man. Not a fuck him, but Charlton Heston or like a Jeremy Jordan. These, these prototypes that we have determined over many years that is the story, that is the leading man that we follow. The story of Seymour and Audrey are characters that we are meant to never see the stories of. Usually this is, this is the, it's.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Supposed to be non traditional.

[Matt Koplik]

It's the anomaly. Right. Like you're watching the underdog, you're watching the losers who are cast aside. And when you are casting people who have often played the winners as the losers, it doesn't feel as right.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

In fact, it actually makes me feel angry because I'm like, oh, so now we're co opting the loser story by allowing the winners to play them. Now it's like we're playing dress up, you're at a costume ball. It was nice to play this underdog for a minute. But then we go back to my life where I actually keep winning. I don't like that. And it's not, and it's not fair to actors who have had good fortune in their careers to be like, I don't want to apologize for the success I've had so I can play Seymour and Audrey. But it's also like, you can't not bring that baggage with you when you walk into the theater.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right. I think it's got to be difficult. I guess we're kind of transitioning into.

[Matt Koplik]

This conversation of the hot Seymour.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Of the hot Seymour, you know, because I don't, I don't know Jeremy Jordan's history. I don't know what kind of torment and bullying he went through in high school. But I do know he's a theater kid, so I assume maybe he was othered a little bit. And I'm not saying like you do not have to experience trauma to play someone who is battered and bullied like Seymour is. But it is rewards me as the audience to see, to see someone who is not a traditional leading man get to play a leading man character. Where Jeremy Jordan is currently playing the leading man in Great Gatsby and he was wonderful in Bonnie and Clyde and Newsies and all that, I'm more prone, I'm more likely to be excited to see someone like Gideon Glick. Who does play the underdog.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, constantly.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Constantly. When they announced Jeremy George, like, well, they're casting Orin Scrivella. He should be playing Orin Scrivello.

[Matt Koplik]

He should be. Jeremy is obviously just, like, our immediate go to. He's, like, the most famous of this.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Bunch, and he's probably the hottest Seymour they've had.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, we've all seen that thirst trap that Darren Criss posted from the Versace set. Like, that is another very hot man. And Darren Criss is someone who also, like, has been cast as the beautiful type for so many things. Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

But I'm gonna say this, though, too, because I remember Darren Criss before he got famous on Glee. I remember when he did the YouTube musical of Harry Potter. And, like, he is, like, he is that dweeby guy. He is hot, yes, but the world, like, he made himself hot to fit the mold of being the hot guy. He is the geeky music nerd at heart of it. So him playing Seymour does not piss me off as much, but he is. No, he isn't transitioned from character type.

[Matt Koplik]

He is a nerd at heart. I have a few friends who were with him at Michigan who were like, no, he was getting laid even back then. Like, every day. Like, he's. He's never. He's never had that.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Like, there's that hot straight boy who played a guitar. Come on now.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so, like, Laura Benanti talked about this when she did Women on the Verge when she was playing what's his name, the model role. Oh, and. And first of all, I've also said this about Benanti. Like, that woman has been beautiful for a very, very long time, but she. In her heart, she always feels like she's that nerd from high school. But she said she has model friends who she spoke to in order to play this role. And what she realized with all of them is, like, they don't realize that people in the world don't treat everyone the way that they've been treated. It's that 30 Rock episode about the bubble with Jon Hamm of, like, men don't always just open doors for you and hail you caps. What are you talking about? Like, men always do that. It's like, no, like, you look the way you do, and thus people treat you differently. We don't like to admit it, but it's just. It's the truth. And with Darren Criss, all I was just told was, like, ed Michigan. Even then, like, in his theater nerd heart, he was still like, what are you talking about getting laid is so.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Easy and easy for you.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. But it's the Darren Criss. It's the Jeremy Jordan. It's even the Matt Doyle, who also, you know, has spoken very openly about his rough childhood and adolescence of being overweight and being bullied. And part of me is like, absolutely. And I'm sure you carry that with you as Seymour, but also, you have looked like Matt Doyle for 18 years. I now.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

But Matt Doyle, like, even though he, like, is very, very fit, like, he still looks slender.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, he's scrawny for sure. But also, I don't want to give this idea that you have to be scrawny to play Seymour Lee.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

No, no, no. Like, and I'm saying, I mean, you know who I think would be a wonderful Seymour? I'm gonna say two people. I would love to see Josh Layman play Seymour for sure. And I would love. Who's the guy from what we do in the Shadows? What is his name?

[Matt Koplik]

I don't actually watch what we do in the show.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, it's a great show. You should watch it.

[Matt Koplik]

Everyone tells me so. My, if I could have a time machine.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And, like, get someone from a specific moment in their. In their life to come and play this role. Now, I would want Seussical era Kevin Chamberlain as Seymour.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

He would be wonderful. And I think that's what makes me so angry about, you know, I don't mind if you're gonna cast a Jeremy Jordan to play Seymour, but as long as you're giving opportunities to people like Josh, like Kevin Chamberlain, I mean, he's not gonna play Seymour now, but he could have back then. I would like to see that more.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. They've. This production has made it very clear that this is their vision for Seymour. And we can all suck it if we don't like it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And that's fine.

[Matt Koplik]

That's fine. It's their.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's their baby.

[Matt Koplik]

It's their baby. And, like, it's working for them.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And it's a good production. I want it to run forever. I love that there is an off Broadway musical that is making off Broadway off Broadway musicals. Like a hit.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Between that and Titanique, I'm like, the kids are all right.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But it's. Again, it's their vision. It's how they view it. Like, Groff is the mold. And then after Groff, you know, Glick is more seymour esque. Rob McClure is more Seymour esque.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

But neither of them are Lee Wilcoff. Like, Gideon is a beautiful Boy who does play underdogs. Rob McClure is a fit dude who has also played leading man roles. The only non typical leading man. But still, like, no one is balding. No one is over 180 pounds.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Wilkoff. The original Seymour was a balding man playing Seymour. So you never saw balding men play leading roles and that's what made Seymour such a great leading man. Anti leading man.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And you have Rick Moranis in the movie who has a full head of hair and is a cutie patootie, but still Rick Moranis. Yeah. He's like. He's. He's such a small little.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

He's a character actor.

[Matt Koplik]

And opposite Steve Martin looking like meat on a stick as Oren Scivello. He is not. He's not the machoey dude that is around him.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I guess the point of it is Seymour is an opportunity for character actors to play a leading man. Because character actors do not get the opportunity to play leading men as much as the Jeremy Jordans of the world.

[Matt Koplik]

I'll put it this way. When Hair. When the Hair revival came on Broadway, my mom and I went to go see it. Hair is one of her favorite musicals. When I was a kid and she was in a bad mood, I would put on the OBC to like get her in a better mood. And we go see the revival and I have a better time than she does. I really enjoy it. And she enjoyed it, but she walked out. She went in 1969, they were wearing clothes and now they're wearing costumes. It's just not the same. And I went fascinating. And with Seymour and Audrey. So with Seymour, usually when it works and when you're going with the heart of what the show is supposed to be, as you said, Seymour is an opportunity for character actors to play leading roles. In this current production, it's an opportunity for leading men to play dress up.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's not bad. It's not bad. It's still entertaining. But something is lost. And I won't allow us to not.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Acknowledge that Jeremy Jordan is capable of playing Seymour.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. But he's. But he also gets to play Jack Kelly.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Josh Lamon does not.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I. And there's so. And there's so many talented aliens out there that we are not allowing to take center stage.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

One of the things I'll give Big Gay Jamboree a lot of credit for is that cast is still filled with weirdos.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I love that.

[Matt Koplik]

And they are all doing fun work. I. I want more weirdos around. They are the ones who truly create cool shit.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But I mean, of the ones who've done it so far in this production, Evan Rachel Wood and Gideon Glick would be my, like, team right now of just who I would imagine most as Audrey and Seymour. I am dying to see Sherri Renee Scott.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh. I mean. Oh, yay. Sherri Renee Scott. I'm just happy to see her back on a stage again.

[Matt Koplik]

Truly.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah, truly.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, my God. She's gonna. I can't wait. I really can't wait.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

She's going to what the kids say Eat.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. She's going to make us eat what she does not finish eating.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

If there are any crumbs left, it's because she has decided not to eat them.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

You know who'd be a good Seymour, I think would be someone like Kola Scola. I would be interested to see their take on Seymour. Oh, for sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I don't know how well they sing, but I would like to see it.

[Matt Koplik]

They've done stuff at Joe's Pub, but I never was there for it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I mean, they sing well.

[Matt Koplik]

They kind of sing at the end of oh, Mary. But it's not meant to be.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Barbara in Central Park.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's meant to be, but I'd like to see it. Yeah, I'd like to see it. But in this current, for me, I saw Gideon Glick and I saw Tammy Blanchard. They were wonderful, both of them. I mean, I'm a big fan of Matt Doyle. I would like to see. I didn't get Jeff to see him play the part, and I didn't get a chance to see Jinx Monsoon. So my answer will be. I'd like. I would have liked. I would like to see Matt Doyle and Jinx Monsoon.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I would have liked to have seen Jinx. I have friends who saw Jinx and said that they were great. It was much more Charles Bush style.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I mean, that makes sense.

[Matt Koplik]

And not even just the fact that Jinx is a drag queen. Just Jinx's performance style is very reminiscent of Charles Bush. And they have said so, like, that Charles was a very big impact influence on them. I. I'm trying to think of other actresses right now. People wanted us to talk about the Pasadena Playhouse production, which I did not see. I just saw clips of it online. It looked fun.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It looked beautiful.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I didn't get a chance to see. I. I watched the YouTube clip of them singing Suddenly Seymour. And I like that key. And thank you for that key. Because now I get to sing that key with Evita Loken, Cacophony Daniels at Musical Mondays at Rise Bar. Every Monday at Rise Bar in New York City.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, if you think you're selling any tickets on this podcast, babe, you are far overestimating my reach.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Listen, publicity is publicity.

[Matt Koplik]

This is true. This is to a wed woes. I want to think of some more people because someone asked current pairs that have done it that I already like, who else we would cast. And then just more discourse on the hot Seymour discussion, I guess. But I feel like we went through that.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I think so.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Pretty well. Um, let's take another break, and then we will just get into a little bit more of Little Shop and legacy stuff, shall we? Sure.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Great.

[Matt Koplik]

Let's take a little break. Billy, I'd beg to differ with you.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

How do you mean?

[Matt Koplik]

You're the top.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah. You're an arrow collar.

[Matt Koplik]

You're the top.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

You're a Coolidge dollar.

[Matt Koplik]

You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire. And we're back.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Hello.

[Matt Koplik]

So in this break, Sutton, you learned the name of the actor who, from what we do in the Shadows, you like to cast?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes, yes. He played, I think, the actor who plays Guillermo in what we do in the Shadows. And forgive me, I'm going to butcher his last name, but his name is Harvey Guillen, and he would be marvelous as Seymour.

[Matt Koplik]

I would like to see that. Something that I wanted to mention earlier is one of the things I think we can learn from the history of Little Shop of Horrors, of its genesis, is it is an example of learning from your mistakes, from your failures. We are in an era of theater right now where any show that doesn't succeed is a failure on the audience's part, on mainstream Broadway's part, not on the failure of any person who was involved in said show. And I think there is something to be said from owning when maybe you didn't do your best work or did good work and made the mistake of doing something with it you shouldn't have. So with this, what I'm getting at is Little Shop originated at the WPA Theater, which was founded before Howard Ashman got there, but he restarted it as the artistic director, and they had a very successful first season of revivals and a couple of new plays. And from there, he and Alan Menken, where they met at the BMI workshop, they wrote the musical version of God Bless yous, Mr. Rosewater, which was very successful and was transferred to the Intermedia Theater, formerly, I think, the Eden Theater, which is where Golden Apple started Once Upon a Mattress. Best little whorehouse in Texas. It is a Broadway sized Off Broadway theater. It is now a movie theater on, I think 2nd and 14th Street. And the main screen there is 80% of what the original auditorium was, which gives you an idea of just how big this theater was. Like a thousand seats, maybe even 1100. And the show died there. And they tried to make it bigger and that made the show weaker and they couldn't fill it. This show, that was a really big success, success for them at wpa. They move it and it just doesn't work. And Ashman said, for our next musical, I'm learning from this. And it's going to be one set. We are going to have as few actors as we possibly fucking can and we are going to make this as concise as we possibly can. I don't want this getting away from me. So we're going to do it. I'm learning from this, which is how Little shop. The set is pretty much just the shop.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's a stationary set mostly, pretty much.

[Matt Koplik]

With just, you know, the flaps closing in and out. And then one curtain for Orin's office and that's it. And the reason why so many characters are cut from the movie to the stage show isn't for artistic interpretation. He was like, no, I want as few actors as I can. So, okay, it's two neighborhood girls in the movie. He made it three, ultimately, to reflect the Supremes. The Chiffons, the crystal chiffon. Yeah, but they're also named after girl groups. So that was what that came about. But like, Seymour originally had a mother in the movie. He cut her. Not because he's like, oh, we must make Seymour more sympathetic. He's like, fewer actors. How can I justify that? Seymour has no parents. He's an orphan. Done. All of these things were just a way for him to learn from the failure of Rosewater. And then when it was even a bigger success at WPA and they move it to the Orpheum, and it took a minute for it to sort of catch on at the Orpheum, but once it caught on, it was fire. It was fire. And there was a lot of pressure to move it to Broadway. They had the Shuberts as a producer, they had Cameron McIntosh as a producer, David Geffen, and there was a lot of talk of moving it. And he said, ultimately said no. He said, this lives off Broadway and stuck to it and made it a huge success in that respect by sticking to his guns. Because he had learned from the first Time. And there's something to be said about that.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I agree. I think it's like, you know, Icarus flying too close to the sun. How many off Broadway shows have we seen be huge hits? Off Broadway move to Broadway and then become flops? Yeah, it's a rare. It's a rare occurrence for something to be a hit. It's very rare. We're seeing it right now. We're seeing O Mary move from off Broadway, becoming a huge success on Broadway, but that does not happen very often at all. Very rarely do you get lightning in a box.

[Matt Koplik]

And to Omari's credit, they didn't really change anything from off Broadway to Broadway. It's a little faster, the set's a little bigger, and the finale is a little more elaborate, but not that much. It's like a couple of extra lights and a framing thing. Otherwise, it's pretty much the show it was at the Lortel, sticking to their guns of what makes the show work, not leaning into, oh, maybe we should soften this for Broadway. No, they're like, if you. If you want to see us, you want to see us.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right. I think. I think Ashman's intention is correct, because if you look at the 2003 Broadway revival, yes, it had a healthy run, but maybe, what, a year?

[Matt Koplik]

I think a little under a year.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

So not a terrible run, but not a hit like they thought it was gonna be.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So the interesting thing about that revival is, is it was. I'm not entirely sure whose idea it was to revive it for Broadway, but in order for it to get off the ground, the Ashman, I think it was the Ashman estate, wouldn't let anyone but his assistant, who's. I'm going to find her name on the Wikipedia page right now. Connie Grappo.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

She was his assistant and Lee Wilkoff's wife.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. They met on Little Shop. They would not allow it to be done without Connie because they're like, first of all, we don't think this show really belongs on Broadway, but if anyone's gonna make it, try to fit it for Broadway, it's gonna be her. Yeah. Because she. In addition to, like, being there for the origins of the show and helping Howard set it with all these different productions, she actually was very vital in the original production because ultimately, Ellen Green took up so much of Howard Ashman's time. She truly. We love Ellen. She truly was a diva on that original production. She came in and she was like, howard is mine. I need him always. And like. And there were certain scenes that she wouldn't even have, like, Lee be in there for rehearsals at first, because she needed, like, this, the safety of making weird choices with Howard alone before she could even bring it to Lee. So, like, part of the reason why Connie and Lee fell in love was like, Connie spent a lot of time with Lee, working on scenes with him as Audrey. And so she was vital, but she was vital to making that original production work and setting it. And she knows it inside and out. And they were like, we won't let it be done without her. And the producers really weren't on board with her. But they kind. If you read the book, at least the section of the book that I read, it's everyone's belief that the production of Little Shop of Horrors that was out of town in Florida before it came to Broadway was doomed to fail. Because the producers never really wanted it to leave Florida. They were like, we are going to let this sort of die here. And it's a bit of a conspiracy theory. It's like, that's a lot of money to throw away for something that you don't want to want to succeed. But they're like, they gave us Coral Gables, Florida. They didn't. They didn't give us Miami or West Palm Beach. Like, they gave us a town where there's no real theater scene. They gave us a theater that couldn't hold the production. And they invited critics after, like, four days of performances. The producers came after five. Like, we weren't settled yet. And it just came and they went, nope, doesn't work. We're firing. We're firing her and bringing everybody. Yeah, like, brought Jerry Zaks in on week, too. And they'd always had Jerry Zaks is like, in their back pocket of who they wanted. And Jerry fired pretty much everybody but Hunter Foster. Yeah. It's unclear.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

You're firing Billy Porter. You're firing Alice Ripley.

[Matt Koplik]

You're firing Reg Rogers.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

You're firing Lee Wilkoff.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so it's unclear if Lee was fired or not because Lee basically wouldn't. Everyone had to re audition and Lee didn't. Oh, because he. His wife was fired. He's like, I'm not fucking re auditioning for this show.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

That's fair.

[Matt Koplik]

You fired my wife. Fuck you. So, yeah, basically Zack's clean house and brings it to Broadway in a. It was always supposed to go to the Wilson. And I remember when the original artwork was outside and it was much like there was these cartoon drawings of Hunter Foster and Alice Ripley, like, in Fear of the Plant. And then it became much more cheeky, and I hate to say it, but, like, family friendly in its artistry. And they hired Kerry Butler, who is a younger, more pure sounding Audrey. They bring in Douglas Sills, who is a lot less menacing than Reg Rogers as the. As the dentist. They spruce the whole thing up. And they don't change much of the text. If anything, they added the bridge from the movie. That's like, the only real change they made to the text. But if you read the reviews, everybody's like, you're not doing anything wrong. It just doesn't fit. Like, you did what the task was, which was expand this for Broadway. And the problem is it doesn't belong this way.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

It's too big, it's too glitzy, it's too sanded down. And it introduced a whole lot of new people to the show, I suppose. And I do actually enjoy that recording.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I do, too.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a fun listen, everyone sounds good, but it's actually interesting.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Orchestrations are great.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's actually interesting to read Brantley's review of the Broadway production as well as the Variety review from out of Town because they both say, like, Hunter Foster is too attractive to be playing Seymour.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Hunter Foster is the beginning of the hot Seymour trope.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

So it's all Hunter Foster's fault.

[Matt Koplik]

I want to blame him for everything. Not just Little Shop, but Hunter Foster is not a typical leading man either. But I guess because of Urinetown and he. I know he was in Les Mis for a while. I guess he brought a bit more of that, like, Broadway gravitas to him, I suppose. Yeah. But I. What I love about his casting in Urinetown. Everyone's casting in Urinetown is that none of them are the mold of the archetypes they're playing. They're like. They're. They're Clara after the horse kick of that. Of that archetype.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Okay. You know what I mean?

[Matt Koplik]

Like, everyone. Like, everyone's a little too quirky to be playing those roles for real in a Broadway musical.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Even though Jennifer Laura Thompson has played Julie Jordan. But like, Jennifer Laura Thompson is not gonna play Laurie in Oklahoma. For Real. Real. She's not gonna play. I don't know who's another. Like, Jennifer Laura Thompson is never playing Betty Schaefer for a real. Real in Sunset.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

She's too funky, which makes her perfect for Hope, because Hope is the funky version of the ingenue. Bobby Strong is the funky version of the leading man. And so it's just weird to be like, well, he was Bobby Strong. And now he's playing Seymour like he's too much of a hunk. It's like. Do you not understand what made his casting work for Urine Town to begin with?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but, yeah, he is the. He is the prototype for the hot Seymour, I suppose.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Well, let's just blame the foster children, Sutton and Hunter.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Do you think Sutton, at that time would have made a good Audrey, or.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Would she not, opposite her brother Hunter?

[Matt Koplik]

Do you know the story of when she was in Greece? They were incredible.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Refresh my memory.

[Matt Koplik]

So Hunter originated in Greece as one of the. The 94 revival. As one of the. Or the T Birds. Is that their name?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And understudied Danny. And Sutton went on the road as I think she was originally Marty, and almost got fired, but she was understudying Sandy and went on as Sandy one day and like, oh, wait, no, you're.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

We.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry, our mistake. You're a Sandy. And so she was on the road with Sandy for a while, and then when they came, they brought her to Broadway for a little bit to be intermediate Sandy, and they're like, hey, so if Hunter has to go on for Dani, is that okay? And she was like, no, I love 20 year old Sutton, maybe even 19 year old Sutton, telling the Weisslers no.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I mean, can you blame her?

[Matt Koplik]

I know, but, like, I also just love that they even have the gall to ask her that if that was the situation of like, hey, we're bringing in Sutton. Like, I think we just need to all let it be known if Hunter ever has to go on for Danny. Sutton, you're calling out.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't care if you're healthy as a horse. You're calling out to even have the gall to be like, is it okay if you play opposite your brother and make out with him?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's Fran and Barry Weissler next, bringing.

[Matt Koplik]

You Flowers in the Attic, the musical.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I mean, I do love that Forbidden Broadway number that they do about Fran and Barry Weisler on the. Anyway, bring it back to Forbidden Broadway.

[Matt Koplik]

What? That one? I don't know.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's Greece. Oh, and Chicago.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure, sure.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

You're the one that I want. Oh. Oh, Sally Strothers, it's. Come on, you can go back and listen to your forbidden Broadway, I think.

[Matt Koplik]

Which one is that? Forbidden Broadway 2001 or Forbidden Broadway before 2001? Okay, I'm trying to think if it's. Yeah, okay, I'm trying. I'm just trying to remember. Maybe it's volume three because it's not in cleans up its act, which is my favorite.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I just remember. I just remember the numbers. Thank God for YouTube.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank God for YouTube. I will listen to that one tomorrow.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

So, Little Shop.

[Matt Koplik]

So Little Shop. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what else to talk about now because we never. We haven't spoken deeply about, like, multiple numbers or the book, other than just praising it.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

We've spoken about the perfect musical.

[Matt Koplik]

I know, but we've talked about Summer that's Green. We talked a little bit about Feed Me. We talked a little bit about Suddenly Seymour, but not much. I don't know. Is there, like, a number that we should be deconstructing more? I don't know.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I think. Okay, so let's talk about Downtown for a second. Downtown Skid Row.

[Matt Koplik]

Fantastic.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It is. I mean, you have a perfect opening number with Little Shop of Horrors, but I think with something like Downtown, it is a perfect establishment of establishing your characters but also establishing your setting, because the setting of Skid Row is just as important a character in the show. You have to feel what these people are living in. They are living in the worst neighborhood in the worst part of town in the city that they live in. There's homeless people everywhere. There's crime. And that's why they, like. They want to get out of it. You need to feel why they want to get out of here.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Somewhere on that screen is a specific I Want song. But in a way, Skid Row is an I Want song, too. It ends at I want. Absolutely.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Absolutely. I need.

[Matt Koplik]

I gotta get out of here. I mean, the line that doesn't get laughs anymore in this revival because it's played too grounded, is that you don't meet nice guys on skid row, Mr. Mushnik. Which is when Audrey shows up with her shiner and Mr. Mushnik says, like, he's beating up on you again. Listen, Audrey, not my place, but I'm starting to think he's not such a nice boy. And she goes, you don't meet nice boys on skid row, Mr. Mushnick. But they play it like. They go, like, you don't meet nice boys on skid row, Mr. Mushnick. And I'm. It just makes me mad.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I don't think that's really. I don't think that's a funny line.

[Matt Koplik]

I think it's. It's a funny line in terms of just. The B movie of it. All of the. Just Ellen Green gets a laugh on it. And it's not just because she's Ellen Green.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Well, it is because it's Ellen Green. She gets.

[Matt Koplik]

She gets a laugh in the 80s version, too. It's. You have to. It doesn't. It's not like a falling down the aisle kind of laugh line. But again, it sets. If the opening number is perfect because it informs you that the tone of this thing is going to be wackier than you realize. You need moments of melodrama, which is the sort of just looking up and going, you don't meet nice boys on skid row, Mr. Mushnick, because it sets up the tone of the Skid Row song, you know, of just the. Of the depravity.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I think that more serves her than it does the setting of Skid Row. In that line, you're here. She wants to meet a nice guy. She just doesn't realize the nice guy is right in front of her.

[Matt Koplik]

So she's also accepting her fate a bit with that line.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah, well, then let the humor come from that, not from the skid row of it. You know, you don't meet nice guys on skid Row. Sure, sure, sure, sure. But I don't think it's. You know, I. I just. I think sometimes a line is just in line, and just play. Play the honesty. And if that's Ellen Green's honesty with it, move on. You're getting the information. You don't meet nice guys on skid row. She wants something more. She wants to meet a nice guy, and we move on into it, you know, it's not a badum Ching, you know.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I disagree.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

That's fine.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I hear you. I absolutely hear you.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It doesn't matter when we both direct our different productions of Little Shop of Horrors.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. I want everyone to be laughing all the damn time, including every line of Summer. That's Green. I want that last moment to be barrel full of laughter.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Then you were doing a disservice to Howard Ashman's note at the beginning of the script.

[Matt Koplik]

This is twill.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

This is twill.

[Matt Koplik]

A wedwell's.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I think Downtown is the foundation of songs like Belle in Beauty and the Beast. You put Downtown and Belle next to each other. It's not the same song, obviously, but you are establishing these characters, the setting, who they all are as a community and what their wants are or how they see someone or something. I mean, again, Belle, Downtown. It's a Howard Ashman, Alan Menken collaboration. Like they really, with Little Shop of Horrors, they have created the formula of what makes a perfect musical.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, it's the idea of you have to know what makes a musical tick. Right. I've said this before. I'll keep saying again, musicals are like baking. You have to know the fundamentals of what makes dough rise before you start having fun with flavors. You can't come in and say, I'm gonna make a dough, and I don't know how to make dough. No, it's the people who come in from pop and rock and indie music saying, I'm gonna write a musical, but I don't really like musicals. Sometimes, occasionally it works out by accident. But often, if you don't understand the fundamentals of musicals, of where you need. Of how you need to incorporate information of who we have to be following, of setting in the first 10 to 15 minutes, you have to establish the tone of the show, the style of the music. The thing that Great Comet actually does really well in that opening number is it starts with a traditional kind of Russian sound before going into a little more modern, cheeky musical theater and having fun with establishing who every character is by doing it. Like someone described it once as ragtime meets the 12 Days of Christmas.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Absolutely. They're saying, this is our story and here are our characters.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And we're going to repeat because they have the line of, it's a complicated Russian novel. Everyone's got nine different names already. Allowing you, like, okay, I'm gonna relax a little bit. But there is a class to that, to the music that's played there. It's four minutes, but it tells you this is the kind of tone we're giving you. And expect to hear different styles of music constantly. Because then that moment, that number's over, we go right into a deep piano, almost concerto like sound.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So. So it's telling you, like, always be on your toes with whatever kind of music's coming your way for this show.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

But the brilliant thing about Little Shop of Horrors is it's. It lives in its simplicity.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

You know, with downtown, you say, here is Skid Row. Alarm goes off at seven and you start up town. This is what the people do in this place. And now here are the two people that you need to know more than anything else. Here's Audrey, here's Seymour. And this is the people that you need to follow with something like Great Comet. That is. I mean, I would say the same thing with, like, Les Mis. Like, there are a lot of characters that you kind of have to, like, understand. But there's something beautiful in the simplicity of Little Shop. All you just need to know these two people, follow them and you will be fine.

[Matt Koplik]

It's the baking, though. It's the. They all know. You have to establish who we're following early and you have to establish the style early. How they, how they go about doing it is up is based off of exactly what kind of style you're going about and what kind of story you're telling. Little Shop is overall a very simple story. And the truth is that the style of it is one. It's. It is. It is high melodrama meets doo wop music.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Uh huh. Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

And they tell you that in two minutes.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's a sci fi. It's a sci fi B movie with doo wop, Motown and rock and roll. Yep. And blending all those things together. I do not know why it works, but it works so well.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I think because it is such an odd story, you have to. The only way to sell it is to pair it up with a style of music you wouldn't expect. It's what makes the title song work so well as it begins with what you expect from a. From a sci fi film. And then it goes right into Little Shop. Like it's just. It throws you for a loop and it's fun and it's cute and it. And it slaps and you all of a sudden know like, okay, we're gonna be. We're gonna be going back and forth between sci fi B movie and doo wop. You know, pop music.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It has surprises. I think that's why Suddenly Seymour. Moving on to Suddenly Seymour is a nice surprise. It's. It is a sigh of relief. So in. At the start of act one, we've got downtown where there's tension. Suddenly Seymour at the beginning of Act 2 is release. Because finally we're getting. We're seeing. We're seeing a glimpse of what could be a happy ending. And it is just a beautiful song. It's got yearning in is. It's satisfactory. It just lays everything that you want for these characters and you just makes an audience go finally.

[Matt Koplik]

Because it's. It's a release not just for the audience, but for the characters. It's a musical release because it's not a moment where they're realizing they love each other. They love each other.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

They've always loved each other, but now they're just confessing it. And what I love about Suddenly Seymour is it is a driving love song. It's not. I mean, I think there are so many love songs that. Just going, okay, just you love each other. But this, there's a driving force to it. That makes love exciting. Love should be exciting. Love is. I could go into a whole monologue about going into the elephant love medley, but I love Suddenly Seymour because it has a drive to it that makes new love so exciting.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Well.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's. It builds to them finally just confessing. Because it starts with, not Seymour's your man, it's Seymour's your friend.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

For both of them. And it's him telling her, like, it's okay. You're safe with me. Safe space. I'm your friend. And she isn't saying, you're right, you are. But she goes off about, like, how she can't really say it just yet. And it goes back and forth, and he's like.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

Her repeating his chorus gives him the motivation to actually be a little bolder and say, tell me this feeling is gonna last. Like, let's do it. And she's almost there, and she's like, I need one more second. And then she finally just lets it out. And then he lets it out.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And that's why when you see Ellen Green. Mm. Making all these bizarre little small choices, when she uses that bigness in her voice, it is glorious.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Finally she's releasing that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

That she's been holding back the entire show.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's why it's. It is why the Audrey in the Regents park was not perfect for me. Because I do want an Audrey, even though the urchins are more musically the high point throughout the show. You want an Audrey who can shake the rafters at the end of that song. It's why it's also a hard role to cast.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes. You cannot start Audrey. You can't start this show. I mean, you start the show at a 10, but then everybody in it has got to be like, Seymour's got to be at, like, a three. Audrey's got to be at a three. So when we get to Suddenly Seymour, Audrey can belt them F out of Suddenly Seymour and rev it up to a 10.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Because that makes it more fun of a journey.

[Matt Koplik]

1,000%. And you have moments where, like, they'll pop off just a little bit, just because, again, it keeps you excited, keeps you on your toes, but it's not wailing the entire time. You don't want to Seymour who over sings grow for me. You don't want an Audrey who over sings somewhere that's green. Not to toot my own horn. I had a friend who had to submit for a production of Little Shop two years ago, and I helped her with her self tape. She did all the scenes we did suddenly Seymour and we did Somewhere that's Green, I think, like four or five times. And each time it truly was Ashman and Benson in the recording studio doing Party For Worlds, where each time I was like, less, sing it less. Sing it less. And the final take was one where she almost spoke, sang it, and she booked the fucking job. And when she went in for her callback, the first thing they said to her was, thank you for not over singing Somewhere that's Green. And I was like, brilliant. There we go. It is. There are moments where you can ride the melody, but that is not a song that you stop the show with vocally speaking. It is a song for acting.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Exactly. Not what we said before. Not every song is going to be.

[Matt Koplik]

An 11 o' clock number, not a barn burner. And you don't need it to be in a.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I love that about it. I love that Ashburn and Menken know when to put all their cards on the table vocally and when to just let the story speak for itself and the characters speak for themselves. There are some. I think there are some writers who maybe could learn from that.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, 100%.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Not everything has to be the viral belting clip.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

When I go see a new musical and I, like, I'm open to everything. Like, if I. I try not to, like, pass judgment on a show until I see it, until I see the whole thing, like, what journey are we going to on? But I always come back to, like, how. And I'm not saying every show needs to structure themselves after Little Shop of Horrors, but going back to what we were talking about with Howard Ashman, he found his formula that really worked in telling a great story. And people are writing musicals nowadays that are just so complicated that it's really hard to follow nowadays. I. Without naming names of shows or whatnot, but you just don't see show structure like this happening much anymore. And I wish writers could go back and say, why is this such a well structured musical? What did Howard Ashman have? And it's there. It's there for every writer to, like, look at. Find the formula.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, it's so easy to dismiss shows like Little Shop or Golden Age Music and say, why do we keep bringing them back? I'm like, the question is, why are they still evergreen? Like, why do we still find meat there? Why do. Why do people have fun doing it? Why do they still resonate? Part of it is that the structure is in place. So any time you come at it, it can still hold up. And having nuance. And again, not judging your characters. Writing fully formed. People who have flaws and. And have positives and make mistakes and do good things as well. Like that is the human experience. No matter what genre you're going in, whether it is melodrama pop RA like Les Mis, or intimate B movie pulp like Little Shop, you have to have those things in place. And too many people want to break the mold without actually understanding the mold. Too many people only want to focus on musicals of the 21st century because, oh, everything else is cringe. A term that I hate because no one actually is willing to explain what makes them feel cringe. Cringe is a reaction. It's not a thing. A show is not cringe. Your response. You are cringing from a response to it and ask yourself, why am I responding so Right. You know, so that's. When I hear that, I just go, oh, you're seven. When people say that's cringe, I go, you're seven years old.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And you won't look inwards. People won't look inwards as much these days. Do you find that the problem is the outside? It's not them?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, you know, people always find a reason, like, it's correct. They will never find a. Like, if something fails or if they're failing, it's not something that they did.

[Matt Koplik]

We used to be.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Everything is against them.

[Matt Koplik]

We used to be Nina and in the Heights, the stage show, and now we're Nina and in the Heights, the movie, where the problem in the stage show was she got into too big of a pond and she couldn't hack it. And in the movie, it's no, college was racist, and therefore I'm leaving.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's not that it's an untrue fact, but it's.

[Matt Koplik]

It changes her whole narrative and actually makes her less interesting.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because who can't relate to having imposter syndrome and also biting off a little more than you can chew and having that humble you a little bit.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Correct.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I think everyone needs to keep it simple. Keep it simple.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Keep it simple, stupid.

[Matt Koplik]

And keep it simple, stupid. And when in doubt, go back to a human experience, a human response. Don't think about what you're politically trying to say. What is it that this character is experiencing? And sometimes what they're experiencing can be the message.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Or I would say, if any young writers are out there, like, listening to this. Not that I'm imparting advice and I'm like. But go back to the. And if you're Writing something. Find some. Find the things that inspired you and find out what about that show made you inspired. Yeah. And what works for them. Of course you have to find what works for you, but find the form. There is a formula, like why certain shows work as well as they do. I think Chorus Line is another perfect, perfect example of, like, how structure of a show makes a show perfect. But that's a whole other podcast.

[Matt Koplik]

That's a whole other podcast. We can talk about that on another day. Let us take one last break and then we will wrap this up now.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

We're gonna wrap it up.

[Matt Koplik]

Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

How do you mean?

[Matt Koplik]

You're the top.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar.

[Matt Koplik]

You're the nimble tread. And we're back. We already were sort of talking about what to take away from this show, but I think that we haven't really discussed as much of the legacy. We've hinted at it. We talked about sort of, you don't get Bat Boy or Urinetown without little shot. But I think it can't be emphasized enough just how much of an impact the show has, not just on the writing of musical theater, but in terms of what success can mean in this industry. Right. I've just. It doesn't matter if you're off Broadway or on Broadway. It doesn't matter, you know, how long you run or whatever. You can have a. You, you get so many things can spring forth from whatever it is that you create.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I think Howard Ashman really proved that off Broadway theater has value and that there is a hunger for it. You do not need to go to Times Square to go see the biggest hit on Broadway when you can find a hit in the East Village, or in this case, you can go to 8th Avenue between 8th and 9th Avenue and see the west side Theater and go see the Little Shop right now. And there's a reason why it's still running, what, five years today? And why Titanique has had a multi year run right now, too.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's about to open in London.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah. And Chicago.

[Matt Koplik]

And Chicago. They also think about Little Shop, about the power of adaptation, because you're saying you find things that inspire you. Ashwin came to this as his source because he loved the original movie as a kid and remembered it as a movie. And when he rewatched it, he realized, oh, this is actually a bit clunkier than I remember, but there is something here.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

There's. I mean, isn't that always the Case when you go, but, oh, I loved this movie as a kid. And you go back to. And go, oh, this is a little weird. This is. There's some holes in this plot.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And so now he fixed it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well. And he goes, but there is an idea here. The tone of this movie, the style of this movie already has something going for it. And then. And then making it work for the stage and finding ways to fine tune the story to give it a better arc, to make characters make more sense, to also streamline it so we can have a small cast. There is something to be said for not doing mental gymnastics to justify a love for something by making excuses for flaws. Sometimes there are just flaws, Right. And sometimes you make mistakes. Ashman acknowledged the mistakes he made in God bless you, Mr. Rosewater, which led him to make better choices for Little Shop. He recognized the thing that he loved as a kid wasn't perfect, but that gave him the inspiration to make changes for the stage show.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

So what you're saying is he not to say that that show was a failure, but he looked at. He took something that was a failure and he learned from it and he grew. So failure in this case was good.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. It always is. But also doesn't have the point of pride, of I have to do this on my own. Is willing to make commercial connections to make keep his show afloat without allowing David Geffen to be a producer on Little Shop. He doesn't go to Disney. The whole reason Howard Ashman and Alan Menken got to Disney was Disney was looking for new songwriters for their Oliver and Company movie. And Geffen was like, go get Howard Ashman. He knows everything. And Ashman comes to write a song for Oliver and Company, but it also pitches them him as a. As an entity, as a person to work there. And brings Menken along with him. And that's what gives us Little Mermaid.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And that gives us the Disney renaissance.

[Matt Koplik]

Gives us the Disney renaissance, absolutely. And also without the failures he found from Smile. Doesn't learn the lessons of going too big or making too many compromises, of trusting your gut, of knowing what works for something instinctually, and then allowing outside forces to make changes for you that you know in your heart is wrong, which allows him to then fight for things in Mermaid. For like, Smile was a very different show when it went before it went out of town than when it went to Broadway because they did two different workshops for it and couldn't get money from anyone. The Shuberts, in fact, dropped them from their theater lineup because they're like, we don't trust this show. So they made all these changes to adhere to what they thought the producers would want. And the show actually got sweeter and had a lot more tonal inconsistencies. And when it closed on Broadway, they went back to formula. And what we have now is the show that they originally wrote. You aren't in control of what the people with the money and the influence are gonna like. You just have to make the thing and trust that it's good, and eventually there will be somebody who believes in it. And the story. There's a famous story with Mermaid where they were doing a test screening of the movie and the animation wasn't complete, and they were doing part of your world, which was like, basically just only rough sketches in the audio. And Katzenberg was like, you gotta cut that song. And Ashman fucking lost it. He's like, no, the movie's not getting released without the song cut. And everyone else was able to convince Katzenberg, but, like, Ashwin would have withdrawn all of his material if that got cut, because he's like, that's the heart of the movie. And he's like, and I know that it is. You may be the money man, but I know that this works. And I have bent too much to men like you with things that I knew were the wrong choice. And just for the sake of getting it out there, it's like, and I will not let it happen again. We learn from the past and we move forward. And without that, we don't have one of the absolute best songs of the Disney Company. Not even just the Renaissance, but of that company. I think it was voted the number two movie, number two song right after when youn Wish Upon a Star.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

Of, like, their most iconic songs. Yeah. I mean, it's the moment it begins. Everybody knows what that song is, and there's something to that, but I think there's something to learn from that. And all of the ways in which Ashman's legacy expanded from Little Shop, just from learning from his mistakes, from collaborating with people who some would consider, like, the artistic enemy, like the powerful Geffen and Macintosh and Schubert, while also standing his ground from times when he did bend to those people as well. I think there's some. There's so much to learn from that. Watch the Howard Ashman documentary, Howard. It's a good one.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I have. It's good. It's been a couple years.

[Matt Koplik]

That's to the listeners, not to you.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, it's not.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think it's on Disney Plus. Right.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Also, Waking Sleeping Beauty is also another great. And it's not all about Howard Ashman and Alan Menken, but there's a good section about their time at Disney.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because that Waking Sleeping Beauty is about the Renaissance.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And they are a major part of that Renaissance. Everyone always talks about the day Howard came in to sit down with all of the animators and all the writers and talk about the history of the Disney Company and the history of the American musical and how they go hand in hand.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

It's true, though.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And saying, like, it is your responsibility to keep making musicals because you are a reflection of the maturity of the American musical. And it is a consistent, concise, enjoyable way to tell very nuanced stories. And they did.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Thank God they listened.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank God they listened.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Do you think there's Disney Theatrical on Broadway without the inspiration that Howard Ashman gave them?

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And therein lies the legacy.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. Well, because without Little Mermaid, the Renaissance just doesn't happen. This is true. And without the Renaissance, there's no Disney Theatrical. Disney Theatrical happens because Frank Rich says Beauty and the Beast, the movie, is the best musical of 1991, and it's not even on stage. And that gives Disney the idea of maybe we make this a stage show. And Peter Schneider, who I don't think he. You think he worked for Disney Theatrical, but he definitely worked for Disney. He was, I think, like the company manager for the original Little Shop of Horrors Off Broadway, and goes to Disney around the same time that Howard and Alan go as well. So all of that is entwined. Like, it's these. These roots get tangled up in beautiful, beautiful images.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

How choice, to use a word, like roots. Fruits which are connected to a tree. A tree which is kind of like a plant. Kind of like a plant. A plant that is man eating.

[Matt Koplik]

Call me Audrey, too, baby, because I'm gobbling men up.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, you're a goblin. That's for sure. A goblin. No, no. It's almost Halloween. Let me. Give me something.

[Matt Koplik]

I put a spell on you. Indeed. Sutton.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Any other final thoughts on Little Shop you want to let the listeners know about?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I think it's a perfect musical. I've said it over and over again.

[Matt Koplik]

And I'll keep saying it and I'll.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Keep saying it till the day I die. It is a perfect musical. Name another perfect musical like Little Shop of Horrors.

[Matt Koplik]

What do you mean by like?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Name another perfect musical in terms of structure, character development. I know you're gonna say Carousel.

[Matt Koplik]

No, Carousel's not perfect. Carousel's wonderful. But it has. It has some beats that are.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

My favorite musical is into the woods, but not a perfect musical.

[Matt Koplik]

I think that. Well, so by perfect, in terms of. There's nothing that I would change because everything is useful. I would say a little night music is pretty fucking perfect in terms of how it works, Guys and Dolls. Gypsy, I think, is pretty close to perfect. When we did the Gypsy episode, Preston Max Allen did make the rifle note of. There's nothing in the show that gives you any indication that Louise has Gypsy Rose Lee inside of her. She never says anything that's funny or articulate. She's a wallflower until she's not anymore. She gains some confidence in Act 2, standing up to Rose, being like, we need to take this job. But she never has a witticism. There's never a moment where something comes out of her mouth where you go, oh, that was clever. Nothing like that. So it's up to the actors during the strip to make that arc work. But other than that, there's nothing wrong with Gypsy.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah, I agree. I think Gypsy's up there. I think. Yeah. I think Gypsy, perfect musical. Little Shop of Horrors, perfect musical. I think beyond that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. You can make an argument for anything else. There. There are. There. I think there are more great musicals than there are perfect.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

There's a difference between a perfect musical and a great musical. Yeah, but I think in terms of. There are lots of great musicals. I think Anything Goes is almost a perfect musical, but Anything Goes is kind of the foundation of what created Cole Porter and created the formula of what golden age musicals could become. Oklahoma. Not a perfect musical, but the foundation.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. I think South Pacific is a more perfect musical than Carousel, but I think Carousel reaches greater heights. And. But that. And both are great musicals. But that's just what I mean in terms of. There are fewer bumps in the road of South Pacific than there are in Carousel, but there's nothing in South Pacific that matches the bench scene or the opening waltz or the ballet.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And acting that bench scene is. It's the theater.

[Matt Koplik]

Truthfully, I think everyone is chasing the dragon of trying to make something as perfect as the bench scene.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

You said something recently about Carousel that I really realized. Ooh, that's true. Like that you.

[Matt Koplik]

You need.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Carousel needs to be. You need to hire good actors.

[Matt Koplik]

You sure do.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

And, like, I think the same applies to Little Shop of Horrors. You need to hire good, smart actors that can play the honesty, play the sincerity, but will not just play the comedy. It's funny because of the sincerity. You need good actors.

[Matt Koplik]

You really do. And. But good actors know how to. They good actors know when comedy is landing. You can't always scientifically define when. How to make it work, but you know when it's not landing and will keep working at it until it does.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Some people just have like really natural instincts. But even people with great instincts don't always land it. But you, you figure it out and yeah, you do. You absolutely need good actors for little shot. If you're just going. If you're just going for voices, you might as well go to Carnegie hall and listen to them. Do I know Heather's.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Heather's. Shut up.

[Matt Koplik]

I have fun listening to Heather. That's actually. So that's a score that I listen to at the gym. But I don't really ever want to see the show again.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yeah, I saw it twice. Twice was good.

[Matt Koplik]

Twice as fun.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

I would see it again.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. I don't know. I would like to see a production that changes my mind. I. I'm always here to have my mind changed. Yeah, I got my mind changed on Pajama Game based off of the Roundabout revival with Kelli o'.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Hara. Oh, I. Yeah, yeah. I like that production because I saw.

[Matt Koplik]

A bad production two years prior and I was like, oh, so Pajama Game just sucks. And then I saw the Broadway revival and I went, no, she's good, she's good. She's a good show. Sutton, this has been delightful.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Well, they can find me on Instagram, uttonlees, or they can go to my website, suttonleesymour.com to keep up with my performance schedule. I will be in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico from Thanksgiving to Easter and then Provincetown for the summer with various. If you're a homosexual who likes to go on homosexual cruises, please come see a drag homosexual do drag. Homosexual shows on drag homosexual cruises.

[Matt Koplik]

Phenomenal. And if you don't like any of those things, then fuck off. Then fuck off, baby. You can keep following me on Instagram if you haven't already. Attcode like usual spelling. Give the podcast a nice five star rating or review if you like us. I think the livestream presentation of my play is in a week.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Congratulations.

[Matt Koplik]

Or two weeks of whenever this comes out. I can't tell. Yes, November 16th. That is the day. So depending on where you are in your life, make sure to check it out because it's gonna be a really good time. We're very excited. We are starting to pull some casting together at the moment. That we're recording this and it's very fun.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Did you get Patty?

[Matt Koplik]

We got Patty.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Oh, my God. Yeesh.

[Matt Koplik]

Prescott. We close out every episode with the Broadway diva. Who do you want to close us out with today?

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Do you want to know what? I put some thought into this one, and I want to know. I don't think you've had this one yet, and it's a niche choice. Someone who I think would be a marvelous Audrey. And I would like to hear Broadway's Natalie Joy Johnson.

[Matt Koplik]

We haven't done her yet. I'm absolutely happy to do that. That is good for you.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Thank you. Good for you.

[Matt Koplik]

Brian is gonna be so happy you chose her. Okay, that's it. We'll see you guys next week. Make sure to join the Discord Channel if you haven't. And that's it for now. Take it away, Ms. Joy Johnson.

[Sutton Lee Seymour]

Bye. Women. Broad shouldered women Opening doors, pulling out chairs so charmingly arrayed. Strong silence. Times weapon. Stripes. A scent of leather and pomade. Pinch me, girls, I've got it made. Weapon. No, darling, you're the job.