Broadway Breakdown: "Little Shop of Horrors" with Sutton Lee Seymour

Date: November 7, 2024
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Sutton Lee Seymour

Overview

In this episode, Matt Koplik welcomes drag performer, theatre aficionado, and fan favorite Sutton Lee Seymour to discuss Little Shop of Horrors—its history, legacy, and continuing impact on Broadway and beyond. The pair deep-dive into Howard Ashman’s genius, the show’s bulletproof structure, issues of casting, musical details, and the enduring appeal of its blend of camp, sincerity, and pathos. Throughout, the two reflect on the vital lessons Little Shop offers artists and audiences, peppered with laugh-out-loud banter, personal anecdotes, and passionate (occasionally profane) opinions.

Main Themes

• The brilliance and "bulletproof" structure of Little Shop of Horrors
• Howard Ashman’s legacy and collaborative genius
• The impact and evolution of camp, satire, and sincerity in musical theatre
• Casting debates: the “hot Seymour” controversy and definitive Audreys
• Differences between the stage musical and the 1986 film, especially the endings
• The importance of learning from failure and honoring off-Broadway roots
• The show’s ongoing influence on musical theatre—and why it’s considered "a perfect musical"

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Do Queer Audiences Love Broken Heroines? (02:12–05:00)

• Matt and Sutton ponder the gay community’s fascination with shows centering vulnerable, suffering heroines (e.g., Streetcar, Sunset Boulevard, Little Shop).
• Sutton suggests, “when we see them at their most vulnerable, we can celebrate them even stronger when we see them at their strongest.” (02:36)
• Matt references Judy Garland’s connection with gay fans as the ultimate survivor: “we honor the people who can keep the flame going no matter how battered or bruised they get.” (03:30)

2. The Genius of Howard Ashman (09:16–16:33)

• Matt and Sutton credit Ashman as the “captain of the ship” on all his collaborations, especially with Alan Menken.
• Jodi Benson quote: “Me and Alan were really good at speaking Howard.” (09:49)
• Sutton: “If you look at the works that he gave us, very little to few flaws in each show and movie... Little Shop of Horrors, in my mind, is a perfect musical.” (10:15)
• Sutton asserts, “There is absolute pathos in that show. And it’s the magic trick of it, because it’s a ridiculous piece, but it has moments that truly move you.” (10:56)
• They discuss Ashman’s commitment to humanity and satire: “He never spoke down to his characters, even when it was a satire. Which is why sometimes people take it at face value and play it the incorrect way.” (12:32)

3. Camp, Satire, and Sincerity (15:46–17:00; 31:06–32:36)

• Matt: “You have to play it honestly, otherwise the gut punch doesn’t happen.” (16:28)
• Discussion of why camp must be rooted in emotional truth, not just wild style.
• Little Shop’s Off-Broadway origins and intimacy: “There is an intimacy to an off-Broadway show that is camp and it works better. But if you bring it to a bigger scale... I don’t know if it would sell as well.” (31:56)
• Matt notes, “It’s hard to be knowingly camp opening cold on Broadway because you’re already part of the system in some ways. You can’t really buck the system when you’re charging $350 a ticket.” (31:06)

4. Summary and Structure of Little Shop of Horrors (45:52–47:28)

• Sutton and Matt jointly recount the plot: Skid Row; Seymour, Audrey, and Mushnik's run-down flower shop on hard times; the arrival of the mysterious plant; success, love, Faustian deals, and tragedy.

5. Why the Show Is "Perfect" (10:44–12:00 / 151:29–152:08)

• Little Shop has “not a wasted second,” is “bulletproof,” and combines comedy, drama, and sincerity.
• Sutton: “You need to hire good, smart actors that can play the honesty, play the sincerity, but will not just play the comedy. It’s funny because of the sincerity.” (175:41)
• “The show lives in its simplicity... You just need to know these two people, follow them, and you will be fine.” (153:57)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Ashman & Menken's Collaboration

“Me and Alan were really good at speaking Howard.”
—Jodi Benson quote via Matt Koplik (09:49)

On Ellen Greene as Audrey

“No. She is legitimately great in this. There’s a reason why her shadow is looming so large.” —Matt Koplik (11:00)

Debating the “Hot Seymour” Trend

“In this current production, it’s an opportunity for leading men to play dress up... It’s not bad. It’s still entertaining. But something is lost.”
—Matt Koplik (131:41)

On Why the Movie Needs a Different Ending

“You’re not watching [Seymour] lose himself. You’re watching him try to hold on to his humanity as things bigger than him keep happening. Whereas in the stage show, you’re watching him lose himself...”
—Matt (70:44)

The Power of Simplicity

“It lives in its simplicity.” —Sutton Lee Seymour (153:57)

On Legacy and Learning from Failure

“There is something to be said from owning when maybe you didn’t do your best work or did good work and made the mistake of doing something with it you shouldn’t have.”
—Matt (135:41)

Timestamps of Important Segments

• Ashman & Queer Icons and the "Broken Heroine" Thesis: (02:12–05:00)
• Behind the Creation of Little Shop; Ashman's Process & Story Changes: (17:00–21:30)
• History & Plot Breakdown: (45:52–47:28)
• Deep Dive: Why the Endings Differ (Stage vs. Movie): (67:14–77:06)
• Camp, Satire, and Broadway vs. Off-Broadway: (31:06–32:36)
• Discussion: “Hot Seymour” and Casting: (124:23–132:11)
• What Makes a "Perfect" Musical: (172:55–174:34)
• Final Lessons, Off-Broadway’s Value & Ashman’s Legacy: (165:08–166:14)

Fun & Banter Highlights

• Sutton describes her drag name and family connections to Little Shop (27:06)
• The pair riff on “Rent Again” and Team America’s “Lease” parody (04:35)
• Recounting puppetry obsession from Muppet Babies to Vicky Vox’s Audrey II in London (41:14)
• Forbidden Broadway tangents and love for parody (28:15–30:57)
• Sutton’s nightmare of being recognized at The Eagle, Matt’s hope his name is on a bathroom wall (00:43–01:53, 42:52)
• Matt’s trademark irreverence: “I would love to be in the front row of a musical one day... Anytime they do something really well with the orchestra, I go, good for you, you fucking whore.” (26:24)

Key Takeaways & Insights

On Writing & Creation

• Ashman’s rewriting of the source film shows mastery of adaptation and purpose-driven pruning: “He wanted as few actors as possible... [so] Seymour had no mother. He’s an orphan, done.” (138:14)
• The musical’s structure, humor, and emotional core are intricately linked: “There is always that touch of humanity and that touch of satirical knowledge.” (15:30)
• “There are more great musicals than there are perfect ones. Little Shop is about as close to bulletproof as you can get.” (110:22)

On Commercial Success & Artistic Control

• “It doesn’t matter if you’re off-Broadway or on Broadway. You can have a success that springs so many things forward.” (165:08)
• Ashman’s refusal to move Little Shop to Broadway, despite commercial pressure, preserved the show’s spirit.

On Legacy and Influence

• Little Shop paved the way for shows like Bat Boy, Urinetown, and even the Disney renaissance—a direct outcome of Howard Ashman and Alan Menken’s creative partnership.
• The power of learning from failure, letting go of ego, and sticking to what works—even when powerful producers push for change.

Recommended Listening & Viewing

• Howard (Disney+ documentary)
• Waking Sleeping Beauty (Disney+ documentary)
• 2015 City Center Little Shop with Ellen Greene & Jake Gyllenhaal (YouTube)
• Bootleg recordings of various Audreys & Seymours for performance contrasts (see Discord curation for links)

Final Thoughts

Matt and Sutton agree: Little Shop of Horrors is not just a “perfect musical” in structure, music, and heart—it’s a masterclass in adaptation, humanity, and the delicate blend of sincerity and satire. Its legacy is seen in every oddball, offbeat, or anti-hero musical that dares to let losers and weirdos take center stage. Whether you love Ellen Greene’s singular Audrey, hate hot Seymours, or are a plant puppet purist, the show deserves its place in Broadway immortality.

“Keep it simple, stupid. And when in doubt, go back to a human experience, a human response.”—Matt (163:19)

Outro Diva Request:
Sutton chooses Broadway’s Natalie Joy Johnson for the closing diva—a “niche choice” for a future-perfect Audrey.

For more deep-dive Broadway history, passionate geekery, and four-letter words, follow Matt Koplik and Broadway Breakdown wherever you get your podcasts. Join the Discord for episode prep, debates, and plenty of gay nonsense!