LIVE at Broadway Con! (w/ The Theatre Lovers)

Summary

Broadway Breakdown: LIVE at Broadway Con! (w/ The Theatre Lovers)
August 1, 2024 | Host: Matt Koplik | Guests: Will & Rachel Anderson (The Theatre Lovers)

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Main Theme & Purpose

In this live episode recorded at BroadwayCon 2024, host Matt Koplik welcomes Will and Rachel Anderson (The Theatre Lovers) for a raucous, insightful, and hilariously foul-mouthed deep dive into Stephen Sondheim’s cult-favorite musical: Merrily We Roll Along. The conversation covers the show's backwards structure, convoluted history, memorable songs, plot holes, and its journey from legendary flop to its celebrated recent revival—plus plenty of tangents that only true theatre geeks would love.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Merrily We Roll Along Plot – In (Backwards) Brief

[02:03-03:12]

• The show is told in reverse chronological order and centers on three friends—Franklin Shepard, Mary Flynn, and Charley Kringas—who start out full of hope and promise, but whose relationships deteriorate over the years.
• "It starts off with, they are no longer friends. And you work backwards in time to see how the friendship broke apart and the hope that they had in the beginning." (Rachel, 02:53)
• Central questions: How do we change? How do our dreams change? How are we manipulated by what we want?

2. Character Rundown & “Supporting” Frank’s Greatness

[03:40-06:00]

• Franklin Shepard: Framed as a musical genius (“They make you believe he’s the second coming of Leonard Bernstein. And we only hear one composition the entire show.” – Matt, 03:54)
• Charley Kringas: The lyricist & BFF; often suspected by fans of pining for Frank.
• Mary Flynn: The trio's emotional glue, but her role often feels underdeveloped.

3. Sondheim’s Songs – Unforgettable Numbers & Debates

[04:15-05:46, 13:00-14:05]

• Arguments over “Bobby and Jackie and Jack”: Is it brilliant or skippable? (“That is a song that you watch, not a song that you listen to.” – Matt, 04:21)
• Overture love: “If I were a baseball player and I was walking up to bat, I would want [the overture] to be my music.” (Will, 13:00)
• “Good Thing Going,” “It’s a Hit,” “Rich and Happy” versus “That Frank”: the show’s various opening numbers and their shifting tone from cynical to hopeful to satirical.
• “Not a Day Goes By”: Considered moving in concert, but theatrically undercut by its late introduction and lack of context for the character who sings it.

4. The Show’s Backwards Structure & Sondheim/Prince Collaboration

[07:27-08:22]

• Based on the Kaufman & Hart play, primarily for its backwards structure.
• Hal Prince wanted a musical “about or for young people,” leading to casting young actors, which confused original audiences and contributed to its flop.

5. Gussie: Villain or Scapegoat?

[09:49-10:40, 36:43-41:08]

• Gussie is Frank’s ambitious second wife, often blamed (unfairly) for his moral decline.
• “They kind of rest all of Franklin's bad traits that he evolves into on her shoulders, which I think is very unfair.” (Matt, 36:43)
• Rachel: “A woman is plot device, but also it’s progressive because she gets to sing songs and dance in sparkly outfits.” (40:10)

6. From Flop to Phenomenon—A Show’s Journey

[20:10-29:17]

• Original 1981 version was a massive flop: “There was the 1981 coked out version with the sweatshirts…” (18:08)
• Changing critical tastes and society’s familiarity with non-linear storytelling have helped its legacy.
• “If Merrily had done, like, Middle of the Road, okay… I don’t know that it would be such, like, a cult. I think the fact that it flopped so hard allowed people to really grasp on.” (Rachel, 27:38)

7. Why Has Merrily Endured?

[28:23-29:54]

• Explores lifelong friendship with rare nuance, plus a timeless score.
• Sondheim & Prince’s own “diamond in the rough”; multiple attempts have been made to “figure it out,” culminating in the recent acclaimed revival.

8. Modern Revival & The Groff-Radcliffe Factor

[10:41-12:02, 30:02-32:50]

• Audience reactions to the new revival: chemistry between Daniel Radcliffe, Jonathan Groff, and Lindsay Mendez cited as a major reason for its newfound popularity and emotional resonance: “What it did for me was that it showed why that friendship is there… you can’t really explain a chemical connection.” (Matt, 32:50)
• Humorous asides regarding Groff’s body: “There is one element of Groff that broke the Internet with Merrily, and it wasn’t his neck. And we all know what I’m talking about. The way he fit into those pants made it a very big deal.” (Matt, 26:31)

9. The “Charlie is Gay for Frank?” Question

[30:02-31:46]

• “Is Charlie Kringas gay for Frank?” is posed, with discussion about the trio’s ambiguous, intense bonds:
  • Rachel: “It’s similar to, like, a Camelot. I think they’re all kind of in love with each other. Is it romantic love? Is it friendship love? Is it respect love? That’s in the eye of the beholder.” (30:58)

10. Friendship, Ambition, & Mess—Merrily’s Emotional Core

[32:47-36:43]

• The show resonates because it deals with ambition, the passage of time, and the struggle to maintain friendships through adulthood.
• “Each time you come back to the show, you’re a new person. You’ve experienced different things. You know, it’s harder to keep friendships as an adult. And you’re seeing that played out in front of you…” (Will, 32:47)

11. Merrily’s Many Iterations: What Works, What Doesn’t

[18:08-24:57]

• The show’s protracted development history: from “Rich and Happy” to “That Frank,” revisions at Old Globe, James Lapine’s interventions; the controversy of “Hills of Tomorrow” as framing device—does the show need it or not?
• Nostalgic shout-outs for deleted/altered numbers and the original cast album.
• “Make a timeline—I need a Claire Danes and Homeland vision board with ties to everything of what… What is this Gussie? Who is Gussie?” (Matt, 08:22)

12. Ranking the Sondheim Scores

[53:01-59:17]

• Polling the room: Most rank Merrily in their Top 5 of Sondheim’s works—others prefer Sweeney Todd, Follies, Night Music, or Company, depending on mood.
• “If I’m feeling nostalgic, I actually don’t go for Merrily. I go for Follies. If I’m feeling sophisticated… it’s Night Music.” (Matt, 54:46)
• Comedic asides about Sondheim’s lesser-known works (“The Frogs”) and the hypothetical impact of Daniel Radcliffe in any role.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I am Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts.” (00:32)
• “I inherited my vocabulary from my grandmother, who speaks like a sailor.” (02:03)
• On the convoluted timeline: “I need a Claire Danes and Homeland vision board with ties to everything of, like, what… What is this Gussie? Who is Gussie?” (08:22)
• “I’m just very famous. Third gasp.” (12:10) – Matt (on seeing the revival twice)
• “If Beth is too much energy for the task… And later on, as the show continues and we have the trio with Mary, that’s the one that’s moving… But when I watch this song the first time, every time, I’m always just like, I don’t know, it’s just…” (Matt on “Not a Day Goes By,” 17:50)
• On the original production: “There was the 1981 coked out version with the sweatshirts, right, with the names.” (Matt, 18:08)
• “I think the fact that it flopped so hard allowed people to really grasp on.” (Rachel, 27:38)
• “If Judy Kuhn can turn Cosette into a Tony-nominated role, we can achieve anything.” (Matt, 46:40)
• “If I were to do Merrily, I would keep Frank Jr. off-stage and just have him talk in the other room like Mary Jane’s son in Mary Jane.” (Matt, 52:34)
• “If I’m sitting here… No, that’s your stepkid. No, that’s—” (Matt, on whether to include Sondheim’s work on West Side Story, 59:28)

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Speed Round: Hot Topics and Running Gags

• Takedowns of the show’s plot holes and timeline (“Who among us, right?”, 25:46)
• Groff’s pants (“His neck is not in those pants. So I’m just sitting here being like, what?” 26:31)
• Sondheim trivia and shade (“Sondheim himself isn’t a big Bounce guy.” 06:36)
• Running jokes about flop shows, Drag Race, and pop music seeping into Broadway.
• Multiple passionate digressions, “tangents that have nothing to do with the topic” (46:40)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [00:22] – Live intro at BroadwayCon; random selection of topic
• [02:03] – “Merrily We Roll Along” summary & backwards format
• [03:40] – Breakdown of main characters & musical debates
• [07:27] – Hal Prince & Sondheim’s collaboration, casting, and confusions
• [18:08] – History of the show’s many versions and score changes
• [21:24] – Audience Q&A: plot holes, Groff’s appeal, and would a better version have still flopped?
• [28:23] – Why Merrily endures; Hal Prince’s reflection
• [30:02] – Charlie’s potential attraction to Frank discussed
• [32:47-36:43] – Why friendship and emotional connection are the show’s heart
• [36:43] – Gussie’s development and female characters in Sondheim
• [53:01] – Sondheim score rankings and Merrily’s place among them
• [61:33] – Wrap-up and guest plugs

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Credits & Where to Find the Guests

• Will & Rachel Anderson (The Theatre Lovers):
  • Social handles: @thetheater_lovers (major platforms)
  • Website: theaterlovers.com (memes, merch, history deep dives)
• Matt Koplik:
  • Instagram: @tcoplek
  • Podcast: Broadway Breakdown available on all platforms

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This episode offered a quintessential Broadway Breakdown experience: deep theatre intel, sharp opinions, fierce debates, Sondheim nerdery, and no small amount of laughter. If you love musical theatre in all its messy, magnificent glory, it’s not to be missed.

Transcript

[A]

I'm nervous.

[B]

As well you should be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The stakes have never been higher.

[A]

I've actually never heard of any of these shows, so I'm in trouble.

[B]

I know. Okay. All right. I think Sally's fed.

[A]

Now, has everybody voted that would like to participate in the democratic process of choosing at random?

[B]

Everyone has fed Sally Bowle. Yes. They've given her her supper and her breakfast and lunch.

[A]

I believe it's a raw egg.

[B]

Amazing. Her prairie oyster. Alan, are we good? Yeah, we're good. Oh, okay, Great. So it's running. All right, I'm gonna hit the timer because we go forever. Hello, all you theater lovers, both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address. Broadway. This is a live recording at BroadwayCon 2024. Hello. Yay. Hiya. Oh, my God. This is just like one of those live episodes of how did this get Made? I feel very much like a rock star right now. I am Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And my guests are friends of the pod, fans of the pod, Will and Rachel Anderson, AKA the theater lovers. They're amazing at Scrumtown. Yes.

[A]

It's an honor. It's an honor.

[B]

Will and Rachel, time is of the essence because we only got an hour and if anyone listens to my podcast on the reg, you know that an hour is what we would call a bite sized episode. I do not believe in 30 minute deep dives. That stuff is for the birds. We have three options today of shows we can talk about. Carousel, Little Shop of Horrors, and Merrily We Roll Along. You made your voices heard. You fed Ms. Sally Bull. And now we are going to pick randomly out of here. Will, Rachel, would either of you like to pick or do it?

[A]

I think you have to be the one. It's too much pressure for me.

[B]

Sure. Yes. As I said, the stakes are high. Regina Falange gonna come right in here. Shall we? Okay. We are going to talk about for an hour. Merrily we roll long. Yeah, it's appropriate. It is appropriate.

[C]

We will be speaking backwards though.

[B]

It's gonna be all right. Also, as we continue down this merrily road, there's a good chance there might be some bad language on my part. I apologize. I talk very flippantly and I inherited my vocabulary from my grandmother who speaks like a sa. So if anyone has issues with four letter words, I apologize. Now my words do not reflect Broadway Podcast Network. I'm sure they all want you to know that, but, yeah, let's get into it. Will. Rachel, for the uncultured fecs out there, what is Merrily we roll along about? What is the plot in a nutshell?

[A]

Will you want to take this one?

[B]

Oh, gosh. Okay.

[C]

So there are. It is told backwards, chronologically. There are three friends, and then they are no longer friends.

[A]

It starts off with, they are no longer friends. And you work backwards in time to see how the friendship broke apart and the hope that they had in the beginning.

[C]

And how do we change over time? And how do our dreams change? And how do we get manipulated by what we want and what we think we want?

[A]

And the timeline, it ends in what, 76, 77, 78. And starts in 1955.

[B]

Is that when Sputnik was 55? Yeah.

[A]

Any Sputnik fans out there? Sputnik heads.

[C]

Well, there's a Sputnik panel with this same slot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then they're all. The other panel.

[B]

Well, you haven't said any character names or song titles, so that was a terrible plot discussion. Yeah.

[A]

We did really, really bad. We did really, really bad.

[B]

Who are our three main characters?

[A]

We got Mary, Frank and Charlie.

[B]

Mary, Frank and Charlie.

[A]

Frank is the lead, as told by the TO Awards. Frank is a composer and a very, very good composer.

[B]

They keep telling us that they keep. And they almost never show it over and over again. They make you believe he's the second coming of Leonard Bernstein. And we only hear one composition the entire show. Yeah. And it's a nice composition, but, like, Good Thing Going is not the same as, like, Mambo from West side Story. Right. That's.

[A]

That's a fair. Those were the two that I would compare two.

[B]

Two compositions, Bobby, Jackie and Jack, which is one of the most skippable songs in all of musical theater.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

I disagree.

[B]

Oh, no, I super disagree. That is a song that you watch. That is not a song that you listen to. And we all know what I'm talking about.

[A]

See?

[B]

Okay. Okay. Pitch it. Pitch me. Why is that song not a skip? Tell me right here, right now.

[A]

Because it's so clever. I feel like it's just. It was Stephen Sondheim being like, watch this. And I love that.

[B]

Watch.

[A]

Watch what? Just how he gets very slim opportunities for him to just show off. And I feel like that he could have put any number there because it's a number that they composed within the show. Obviously, it has to work within the context of what would these characters write. But he could have written about any topic. He could have written Any. It was just him showing off, and I really appreciate that.

[B]

Not Steve.

[C]

I think there's an element of. Everyone has thought of what they should have said way, way later. And I think this is Stephen Sondheim in 1981 going, oh, I wish I'd thought of this joke in 1960. And he does it for five minutes.

[A]

Yeah, I agree with that.

[B]

Yeah. It's Merrily Taylor's version. Well, so the thing, though, is that that song, in the context of the show, in the world of Merrily, Frank did not write those words. Charlie did. Yep. So in a way, the show still does not support the idea that Frank is one of the greatest composers around. Sure. Would you say that the melody of Jackie, Bobby, Jack. Bleh, bleh. That. That is a good lyric.

[A]

I think it supports the lyric. And they never really did answer which comes first. They actually avoided the question like the plague.

[B]

What's the question again?

[A]

The question is, which comes first, the music or the lyrics?

[B]

Oh, right.

[A]

And the answer is the contrast.

[B]

The contrast. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So we don't know. We have no idea. Charlie could have come with him. Those lyrics to Frank. And Frank worked around it.

[B]

So full disclosure. Who here has absolutely no idea what we're talking about? Merrily we roll along. Are you like, I'm sorry, I'm totally lost. I'm an assassin's person. Okay, okay. We do have. We do have an assassin. We have two assassins people. Great. So. Yes.

[C]

And one in the grassy knoll.

[A]

You thrust that upon them. We also don't know that they're assassins people. They could have.

[B]

Are you more of a Passion fan? Do you read. Is that what you're trying to tell us?

[A]

He's a big bounce guy.

[C]

Getting away with balance.

[B]

Guys. Sondheim himself isn't a big bounce guy.

[C]

Because he's a roadshow guy.

[B]

He's a roadshow guy.

[A]

Yeah, famously.

[B]

Oh, hello.

[A]

That was Sondheim.

[B]

That was Sondheim.

[A]

Okay, for those of you who are listening, two massive lights in the room just went on. And I believe in signs from above. And that was Stephen Sondheim saying, you're correct.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was a roadshow guy.

[B]

Roadshow is. What's the name of the song? Bobby, Jackie and Jack. Roadshow is that song for 100 minutes, musically speaking. That's so rude.

[A]

He disagrees.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

The lights just went out.

[A]

The lights just went out.

[B]

Well, if he wants to come up and defend himself, he can come on this dais with me. Steve, this is not your dungeon. You can't change the Lighting this way.

[A]

Allegedly.

[B]

Sorry. Allegedly. BPN is so happy I made that disclaimer at the beginning of the episode.

[A]

We have drastically lost the plot.

[B]

Okay. Fantastic. Merrily, Merrily, Merrily famously goes backwards. It is inspired by a Kaufman and Hart play for the 1930s.

[A]

That's where I thought you were gonna go when we. When I put it over to you. But that's okay.

[C]

Oh, no.

[A]

Yeah, that's okay.

[B]

Well, so it's not. It's not like the play in plot, really. It's just sort of in the sense that Sondheim was like, oh, it goes backwards. How nifty. And the whole show came about because Hal Prince, we all know Hal Prince. Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you. Everyone here is a fan of Grind In a Doll's Life. Yes. Thank you so much. Floor of the Red Menace. Floor of the Red Menace. Whoever snapped, you are my people.

[A]

You are in the right room.

[B]

Yes, you are all in the correct place. No, but his wife Judy said you never did a show about or for young people, which I think is egregious, because I think a little night music is absolutely. For young people. I was that 12 year old.

[A]

Well, the waltz. Anything in three, four time, really.

[B]

You don't know how different you are until you go to camp and everyone's going all over the new Britney Spears album and you're like, but have you listened to Glynis Johns before? Just as breathy, just as unable to finish a complete lyric in one breath and just as wide of a vocal range. And I love both of those blondes very much. But Judy said, you haven't done a show for young people. Do a show for young people. So they come upon this play and they go, well, let's scrap the whole plot and just do the backwards thing and cast youngsters in it. And people were very confused in the audience what's going on in the plot. I think sometimes that's still the case. If you see Merrily, there are some continuity errors in that script. I'm just saying make a timeline. I want people to do a YouTube video like they do with Ariana Grande and Ethan Slater, and figure out. And figure out the relationship timeline of Franklin Shepard and Gussie, because the play is confusing AF about it. It's like, oh, they met on the cruise. No, they actually had an affair before the cruise. That's why Beth broke up with him. But everyone doesn't know that they're together yet. It's national news. What is the timeline? Oh, wait, no, they actually started their affair before their musical musical husbands ever started. I need a Claire Danes and Homeland vision board with ties to everything of, like, what. What is this Gussie? Who is Gussie? Someone explain to me Gussie to this. To this crew, to the Passion fans who don't know Merrily. Who is Gussie?

[C]

Will, she is a celebrated performer who hasn't had a hit in a second, and she really wants Frank to write a hit for her, and they start an affair, which destroys Frank's relationship with his wife and destroys Gussie's relationship with her husband, who was also their producer.

[A]

I mean.

[B]

Yeah, and you all thought that that Slater Grande thing was messy. Like, this is mess lobby, and there's.

[A]

A kid, and he has a small.

[B]

Child who can't pronounce his R's.

[A]

It's very cute.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

No, no, we have to. We have to stay on Merrily. We have to stay on Married. We're on Mary.

[B]

We're on Merrily. Did everyone see? Who here got to see the most recent revival of Merrily Rolling? Okay.

[A]

Oh, he got money in his. Okay.

[B]

This is a very wealthy robe. Congrats, Will and Rachel. You guys got to see it. Yes.

[A]

Yes, we did. Yep.

[B]

Fantastic. I also got to see it, so I actually got to see it twice. Well, because the first time a performer was out, a very big performer in the show was out. You can guess who. And the conductor. The conductor was out. And so I got to go back a second time and see the conductor go in and actually conduct this time. And both times I saw it, I am the asshole of the room. Because, you know, at the end of the show, they're doing those transition music. Merrily. We roll along, roll along, and we get to the our time sequence, and we'll talk about our time. But everyone's doing the final rolling along as we get to the Sputnik roof, and Franklin's kid comes out and he does the final rolling along. Right? We all remember this. That little munchkin.

[A]

So cute.

[B]

Well, he goes rolling along, rolling along. And everyone goes, aww. And I'm like, get him off my stage.

[A]

That wasn't for you.

[B]

Yes, I understand that it was. Absolutely not for me. It's so weird because I love Matilda, but I saw that kid on stage, and maybe it's because I was jealous that I didn't get to be nine and do a Sondheim musical on Broadway, but I was like, if I were nine and doing a Sondheim musical on Broadway, I would say my Rs could.

[A]

Have been in the direction.

[B]

Oh, it's absolutely the direction. I saw two different Franklin Shepherds, and Rhea Friedman was like. So I think that the audience will. Aww. If you don't say you're ours. And she is a genius, because she is right. She just didn't plan on me being there, which is fine. No one ever does.

[A]

I would also like to just point out that, you know, a show is expensive. When you said you saw it twice and the whole room gasped.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, I.

[A]

There was audible gasp.

[B]

I didn't pay either time. I'm just very famous.

[A]

Third gas.

[B]

Third gas. No, I just have incriminating evidence against Jonathan Groff, and that's why I got to see it twice.

[A]

This became a very different podcast.

[B]

No, it's a good joke. Cause who could have dirt on that boy? He's the wettest, nicest person in all of Broadway.

[C]

It's not dirt on Jonathan Groff. It is mud.

[A]

That's my time.

[B]

I've got to go. We said we weren't gonna talk about Sondheim's dungeon. Okay.

[A]

Really brutal.

[B]

Will. Rachel.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Favorite song in Merrily We Roll Along. Oh, actually, no. Sorry. Favorite song in context of the show and then out of context, because there is a difference.

[C]

Favorite song during the show. I love the overture. It just gets me hyped. If I were a baseball player and I was walking up to bat, I would want that to. To be my music.

[B]

What's baseball?

[C]

And then I strike out.

[B]

What is baseball?

[A]

We don't have time.

[C]

It's what they sing about in the second act of Ragtime.

[A]

Have you heard of Damn Yankees?

[B]

I saw Take Me Out.

[A]

Yeah. Well, that's pretty close.

[C]

So you remember the bats? They swing.

[B]

I remember a bat. One that might have broke the Internet for a minute. So that way you said.

[C]

Yeah, that's your favorite in the show.

[B]

Favorite in the show, you said, was the overture.

[C]

Yeah, it's like, just a perfect overture that it gets you so into the show. You hear themes, of course, but it is so driving. There's a. Like a French horn. Or is it tuba that plays the little good thing going melody. I can't remember now, but it is, like, such a weird, perfect texture there.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

There's a reason that Jonathan Tunick just won best orchestrations 40 years later. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I would have the same. Okay. So I've been obsessed with the score of Merrily We Roll along since I was, like, a young, like, a tween. And I would say, like, once a year. It's all I listen to for Like, a week straight. So it's very difficult for me to choose, like, a song. I would say, like, Good Thing Going as a ballad makes me cry every. Like, I can't even sing. Sing it. I used to try to, and I like. I can't. But I would say, like, the. I love. It's a hit. I love it to hit because it's deeply relatable. And then I particularly love the line, success is like failure. It's how you perceive it. It's what you do with it, not how you achieve it. And I can't believe it's a hit. It's a hit. It's a hit. It's a hit that. That I like, I keep with me as I live a life.

[B]

But Hot take. Sondheim was good at writing lyrics. Yeah.

[A]

I don't know if you've heard.

[B]

I don't know if anyone's ever said it before, but.

[C]

Well, some of the lyrics in this show are by Charlie Kringas.

[B]

Well, yes. In the context of the show, yes. What song outside of the show? If you were to listen to it.

[C]

On your ipod, I always want to hear now, you know, and, like, I wish that there could be, like, a recording of, like, a 50s, early 60s blues musician doing that song as a blues song. I think it would be really cool.

[B]

Well, I mean, it's a very negative song, really. Has anyone ever watched the bootleg of the original production of Mary Lou Roll along? The one that Hal Prince directed? Yeah, in the 80s. It's on YouTube. Watch it. The quality is 1981, so just be prepared. But it's wild. And when you watch now youw Know, you understand why the show bombed after 16 performances, because there is a massive dance break in the middle of that song. And I'm talking, like, Jane Fonda workout choreography. We're talking bending snaps. We're talking, like, port de bras for days. Everyone's on cocaine. It's crazy.

[A]

But life is funny.

[B]

Life is funny. But, yeah, I do love the original recording with Anne Morrison on that song. My answer for my favorite song out of Context is Not A Day Goes By. However, in context, it's kind of tricky because the song is sung in merrily reroll along the first time by Beth, Frank's first wife, who he's divorcing. And we don't meet Beth until the end of Act 1 for about two minutes outside the courthouse. And she sings this very powerful ballad, which, if you look at the timeline, like, in the normal way. Yes, this is his wife. They've had history. She's been hurt by him. It's all very painful. This song makes sense in musical theater land. We have known this girl for 90 seconds, right? And she comes out on her knees crying like, it's Madea. And you're like, okay. Just like, you're an 11 out of 10 right now. I need you to.

[A]

And I've had to go to the bathroom for the past 20 minutes. It's like, we gotta move it along.

[B]

And I had to deal with that nine year old. Like, can we just. And he's out again. Danny. Danny. I want my daddy. Get off stage.

[A]

I can't. No.

[B]

Do you know what I mean? It's one of those songs where, like, I watched Bernadette Peters sing it in concert and I'm like, waterworks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then it doesn't matter who the actress is because, like, I've watched Betsy Wolf do it. I've watched who did Katie Rose, Clarke, Marin Mazzie, and like, wonderful actresses. But I'm still going there. Like, why am I being like. You're a little too much energy for the task right now. Not that bad. Beth is too much energy for the task. And later on, as the show continues and we have the trio with Mary, that's the one that's moving. But, like, when I watch this song the first time every time, I'm always just like, I don't know, it's just.

[A]

Not as much for me. I mean, that's the trouble when you do reverse chronological order of a show.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, also, I'm black at heart. Because the opening song, not Merrily, but.

[A]

The Frank or Rich and Happy.

[B]

Well, yes, correct.

[C]

That spot.

[A]

That spot.

[B]

That. So everyone knows that Mary Lou Roll along has had many iterations over the years. Right. There was the 1981 coked out version with the sweatshirts. Right. With the names. Then they did it at Old globe in like, 85.

[A]

I think so, yeah.

[B]

And that was James Lepine came in.

[A]

It went, I'm from San Diego.

[B]

Oh, I thought you were saying this, like, 82. I was like, oh, is that far off of the year? Yeah, fantastic. But, yeah, Old Globe, 85. James Lapine kind of came in. He was like, let's make this script make more sense. And they cut some songs, they rearranged some songs, then they did Arena Stage, then they did the Donmar. And basically what's been performed for the last 25 years is that version. And the opening number at Franklin's apartment in Hollywood used to be a song called Rich and Happy show of hands. Who knows? Rich and Happy. Anybody? Okay, so Rich and happy. If you've listened to the original cast recording, which you should, it's got Liz Calloway on it. And if you're an ally, you listen to Liz Calloway.

[A]

That's right. And Jason Alexander and Tanya Pinkins.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, and Tanya Pinkens and Daisy Prince, Hal's daughter. Nepotism.

[A]

But we'll allow it.

[B]

We'll allow it. It's the song that Frank eventually became. And everyone knows that Frank because we all saw this version. It's in Frank's department. No, Hollywood's great and Rich and Happy is a meaner song. It's a funnier song. It's a darker song. Speaking of cocaine, there's a literal beat in the number where everyone does a line at the exact same time. And I said, that is musical theater.

[A]

That's theater.

[B]

That. That is Broadway and it is in the 80s. Come on.

[C]

Everyone was off book. They never needed to call for line.

[B]

I mean, have you listened to that audio of Patti LuPone's final performance of Evita? Girlfriend either had a cab running outside or she was enjoying life backstage because those tempos are fast. It's like, I think Rainbow High's normally two and a half minutes. It's like a minute 50. If you listen to her final performance, she was like, get me out of here.

[C]

She was high flying a door.

[B]

No, but rich and happy versus that Frank. So in that Frank. Frank is successful and rich and happy. He's not. This movie is a disaster in the original version, but it's just, I don't know, it's funnier, it's meaner, and I like it better as opposed to.

[A]

Or anti capitalist as well, for going that route.

[B]

But also, I find it so funny. So when we start the show, it's 1978, and Frank has been in Hollywood for a few years now. And Charlie and Mary, his best friends, are like, you sold out to the enemy and you're all mainstream now going, you know, making movies. You should be back on Broadway. The 1970s, ironically, was a great decade for film and a kind of bad one for Broadway, unless you were Sondheim. So it's funny to me that they're like, how dare you, Frank, go to Hollywood and sell out with movies like Taxi Driver, One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest, the Godfather. Ugh. Such schlock. You should come to Broadway and do Two Gentlemen of Verona and Raisin. Like, that's where the art is, man. And it's like, excusez. Moi, you should come back and do I love my wife. Shenandoah. O Calcutta O Calcutta was on Broadway during the time that Charlie and Mary are telling Frank that he's selling out and he's making, like, the Deer Hunter.

[A]

This is a really good point, right? Yeah, you're really selling it.

[B]

Someone was like, what's a hole you find in the script? I'm like, that. Yeah. I find that to be a hole in script. Yeah. Oh, wait, I had someone. I had some people write in questions about Merrily that I want to get to. Oh, we're only 21 minutes in. This is great. For me, this is usually the moment where I talk about ninth grade. Oh. Someone said that it took them all this time listening to the various versions of the score, and they got to our time, and they didn't realize that the lyric is years from now, will remember, and will come back by the rooftop. Not by B Y but by B U Y. Like, they're going to purchase the rooftop and hang a plaque. Right. Makes sense. Now that's what we call layers. Oh. So I guess not many of you know the obc. So you don't know that there used to be a beginning and ending to the show called the Hills of Tomorrow. Oh, I'm seeing some nods of approval. Those are my passion fans. Okay. Hills of Tomorrow. So the show used to start at a graduation. Right. That older Franklin came and spoke at. And he talks about compromise. And all the kids are like, no, boo this, man. All those kids are gonna have terrible marriages because they don't believe in compromise. And it becomes the impetus for the show going backwards. Right. Yeah. And then they come and you find out that Hills of Tomorrow is the song that Franklin wrote at his high school graduation when he was 18. It's actually a pretty solid book Ended.

[A]

Yeah, we love to see it.

[B]

Yeah. It gives you a third chance to listen to Franklin as a composer. It's great. But the question from Elizabeth.

[A]

You wrote three songs, and one of them were cut, and one more cut. That's brutal.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. Sorry I interrupted you.

[B]

Please interrupt me. But someone asked, like, is the show better or worse without Hills of Tomorrow, without that framing device? Do we just be like, it doesn't matter why we're going backwards or going backwards, deal with it, or do we need sort of an impetus for it?

[A]

I think it depends on if the creative team is focusing more on Frank or if they're focusing more on the trio of friends. Like, what is the story that they're trying to tell Within Merrily. We roll along. Because if you're just focusing on Frank, I think you keep Hills of Tomorrow. I think you keep. What's the song that they added now?

[B]

Old Friends. Oh, it's not called Old Friends, because that's the other song.

[C]

Growing Up.

[B]

Growing Up.

[A]

Thank you. You keep growing up. You keep Hills of Tomorrow. You make it more Frank centered. If, like, this production, I feel focused more on the three of them and their unit. I think you cut it, Will.

[C]

I feel like it was needed in 1981 when there wasn't a lot of playing with the timeline of stories. And I feel like we're pretty used to. We don't need a reason why they're going backwards necessarily. We are just along for the ride.

[A]

We know now we know now we know.

[B]

And.

[C]

It was necessary then, and I do want to see it now. I like the song, but I would.

[A]

Argue, though, it wasn't during that number when most of the people got up and would, like, leave the theater.

[B]

I think people left the theater when Gussie threw iodine into the little girl's face in the opening.

[A]

I mean, if you were still around at that point, you were definitely leaving. But I feel like. I remember from the documentary that, like, people would get up during the first number because they were expecting this, like, grand Sondheim Hal Prince production. And they were like, why are these literal children wearing sweatshirts and, like, berating this other kid who's supposed to be 60? Like, what are we looking at right now?

[B]

Why is this at a gymnasium with bleachers? Like, what is this show?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It looked very, like, low quality in comparison to what they were accustomed to.

[C]

For, like, broadcasting, particularly from Sweeney from Sondheim. Having seen Sweeney Todd and Pacific Overtures and Night Music and Follies where they're the. It's a decade of these incredible, adventurous sets that were artful but efficient and.

[A]

And then you walk into the theater and it's bleachers. You're like, I'm out.

[B]

I'm so sorry. Bleachers and sweatshirts. Like, no, I paid 30American dollars circa 1981. I expect to see a set. Please. Someone wrote this one, which we kind of addressed. It's about the plot holes, but I just wanted to say the full thing because the second half of this question confuses me. What are some of the plot holes in the show? I was too busy staring at Groff's beautiful neck the entire time.

[A]

Okay, one, who among us, Right? That's a wild big shot. Was that Anonymous?

[B]

That was Anonymous, yeah. Good for Them when it's anonymous, good for them. When I make them anonymous, people get wild. Look, show of hands, people. You don't have to get to it in depth, but, like, does a neck do it for you? No, not a single. Oh, no, not a single hand.

[A]

No, it's not anonymous here. We're looking at them. I think if people were writing and putting it in Sally Bow, we would have a very different answer.

[C]

We're going to close our eyes, and anyone who feels this way, raise your hand.

[A]

Folks, listening at home can't see you.

[B]

There is one element of Groff that broke the Internet with Merilee, and it wasn't his neck. And we all know what I'm talking about. The way he fit into those pants made it a. Made it a very big deal. And his neck is not in those pants. So I'm just sitting here being like, what? Oh, someone read. If. If Merrily, in its current form had been the version to premiere on Broadway in 1981, do you think it would have been better received and better remembered? I still don't think so, because it's not just the script that was the problem. It was the visual component. It was truly having children on stage. See, I am right. And also, I think, as you said, Will, we are so much more accustomed now to time jumps. We watch miniseries on Netflix and we binge watch and we see timelines jump all over the place. So our brains have gotten more used to it. Doctor who is canon now, so we understand. Thank you. Wibbly, wobbly, timey, wimey stuff for my British fans out there. So. No, I don't think so. And more importantly, Liz Calloway was not Beth in that version. She was the understudy for Beth, which was just another homophobic thing that Hal Prince did at that time.

[A]

Huge, huge mistake.

[B]

Big mistake.

[A]

I also, I would argue that Merrily flopping the way that it did allowed this revival to happen. Yeah, I think if Merilee had done, like, Middle of the Road, Okay. I mean, it's still Sondheim, so it's like, canon, and everybody has, like, a grasp on his, like, you know, body of work. But I don't know that it would be such, like, a cult. Like, I don't know that people would hold onto it as tightly if it had just done, like, okay. I think the fact that it flopped so hard allowed people to really grasp on. It's like, you don't get Merrily, and one day I'm going to be on top. I was really excited about this Merrily doing so well. I felt very vindicated, honestly. So I love an underdog.

[B]

So why do you think Merrily has held on as long as it has? The lore of it being a huge.

[A]

Flop aside like material, I think it explores friendship in a way that very few Broadway shows do. I think it explores dynamic lifelong relationships in a way that very few Broadway shows do. And I think the time period is very interesting. And then the music is timeless. I mean, like a very small amount of the music has been changed over the years. And I think that's also a testament to how great it is that way. I got to speak Before Hal Prince passed away, he had wrote a memoir. What was it called?

[C]

It was called A Sense of Occasion. And it was an update of his previous memoir that was like, out of print since the late 70s. And this new version now contains that original memoir and then his thoughts on the shows that he had worked on since that point.

[A]

And we went to a signing and we all sort of had like time to ask him one question. I asked him about Merrily and even in the way he spoke, he knew that the material he was working with was excellent. And he felt unfortunately and like this kind of hurt my heart to like, watch him talk about it. But like he felt very responsible in the fact that, like, he couldn't feel figure out how to present it the right way. So I feel like it's always been this sort of like, diamond in the rough, like, undiscovered sort of thing. And over the years, so many iterations of people trying to figure it out, trying to figure it out, trying to figure it out. And all it took was putting Harry Potter in the.

[B]

Why do you think.

[C]

Charlie finally gets to use his powers?

[B]

Harry Potter and one beautiful pair of pants that is all you need.

[A]

And a neck. And a small child.

[B]

And a small child and a unit set that is very attractive. Someone actually speaking of Charlie, someone asked again. Anonymous and I swear this one isn't me. Is Charlie Kringas gay for Frank? Yay or nay? So Charlie Kringas is the. Is the third friend played by Senor Daniel Radcliffe, Tony winner now. Woohoo. And he's. He and Frank have a very special bond. And I think this question comes off the heels of this last revival where it did feel feel like groff sauce and Potter had chemistry. Chemistry. Yeah. Now I'm not gonna give my take on this because all of the people in my life say that I keep looking for homoerotic undertones in everything. My response is no, I find the.

[A]

Homoerotic if you spot it, you got it.

[B]

Exactly. Like, if it smells like a truffle and looks like a truffle, it is a truffle. But. So I'm gonna ask you guys.

[A]

I think. Can I. May I happen. I think they have. I'm in it. I think it's similar to, like, a Camelot. I think they're all kind of in love with each other. Is it romantic love? Is it friendship love? Is it respect love that's in the eye of the beholder. But, like, I view. I felt more. I mean, no shade to Camelot, this past revival of Camelot, but, like, I felt more of a connection and more tension between the three of them in this revival of Merrily, Romantically, Friendship wise otherwise than I did in the three for Camelot, which I think that's like the crux of Camelot, which was. I'm rambling about a different show, so I'm gonna be quiet.

[B]

Yeah. You just said more about that production of Camelot than I've thought about that production since I've seen it.

[A]

I think about it a lot.

[B]

That production was designed by West Ellman. You know it, not West Elm.

[A]

Camelot.

[B]

Will.

[C]

I think the key is that without. For each character loving both of the other characters in that trio, that they are also less without one of them, where in choosing only one of them, they lose part of themselves as well. And that's part of feeling lost over time. I think that there's. There's an element. Part of why people keep returning to Merrily is because it is about growing up. And so each time you come back to the show, you're a new person. You've experienced different things. You know, it's harder to, you know, keep friendships as an adult. And you're seeing that played out in front of you, and you're like, oh, I should. Maybe I should, you know, not go on a talk show and talk about my friend, as that's always happening.

[A]

That's really beautifully put, actually. Like, growing along with the show.

[B]

Yeah. I think what I really liked about this last production was, you know, people talk about the chemistry of the three leads, and, like, they did have chemistry, but what it did for me was that it showed why that friendship is there. Because, you know, we watch things and we go, why are they together? Why are they friends? Why are they dating? And you can't really explain a chemical connection. Right. I know we're not talking about it, but it's my favorite musical, so strap in for 90 seconds. It's ultimately What Carousel is about, right? Like Julie Jordan and Billy Bigelow have a deeply animalistic connection which ultimately leads to his downfall. Death. Spoiler alert for a 70 year old, 80 year old musical. And her. I know, sorry. And her devastation of just like being so emotionally and physically drained by being with him. And sexual chemistry is not something you can just analyze. It's there or it's not. And it's the same thing with friendship. Sometimes you just connect with people and it's not about having the same interests or views. It's just you have a comfort with each other. You have a dropped in element with each other. And in Merrily people always say, well, Franklin is just such an unlikeable character and he gets to be so terrible. Why would Mary and Charlie stay with him? And you see like with with Lindsay and with Daniel, how they are with Groff was like they loved him as a person. You, you saw that connection as we got to the end of the show. But also they were in love with the person he could be and what they and how they knew he was once before. And when you see someone who you love and has so much potential and and was on the right path in your eyes for so long go down a dark road, you don't absolutely ban to them just yet. You really like fight. And it's not until you have to hit like a certain kind of rock bottom. And you know, in Carousel it's. It's Billy exit planning and with Charlie and Frank it's him going on national TV and berating him in front of the world. But Daniel didn't do it in a berating manner. I've seen so many Charlies do Franklin Shepherd Inc. Which is a monster of a song. I did do it in college, by the way.

[A]

Show the tape. Could you imagine?

[B]

And we have it right here.

[A]

Strap in, folks.

[B]

Did anyone go to a BFA musical theater program? Anybody? Yeah. Woo. Amazing. I'm glad you survived it. I barely did. But the way that my school worked was we were not allowed to touch Sondheim until our senior year and even then the second semester of our senior year because we didn't have enough life experience. Listen, fair. I was 21 and not interesting at all. So I get why I wasn't allowed to sing Being Alive because like did I know. But I did insist on doing Franklin Shepard Inc. Just because I was like I'm never gonna get a chance to do this show. Like let me do it now. And I fell into the trap of just like making it a spiraling meltdown yelling out my feelings, which was, you know, you get. You do that once, so then you scale back.

[A]

But I also think that's the 21 year old's take.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. A 21 year old's take who was lashing out at a teacher who wouldn't let him do the song he wanted. It was like, very Veruca Salt. Does cycloship I want my best friend back now, Daddy. But I felt like what Daniel did, which was so good, was. It was truly like a plea. It was like a last cry of like, no. Like, please come back to the Frank that we knew and loved. I feel like this is the last moment before you go off into the deep end. And ultimately, rather than bringing him back from the edge, it's the last final push. I will say, speaking of Gussie, one of the things I don't like about the rewrites is how just blatantly manipulative they make Gussie as a character. They kind of rest all of Franklin's bad traits that he evolves into on her shoulders, which I think is very unfair.

[A]

She. It's very like, your parents get divorced and, like, you're like, it's the new step parents problem. It's not. It couldn't possibly be like, my, like, yeah, my parent.

[B]

Well, like, it's. They make Gussie. Sabrina Carpenter in the first three months of that.

[A]

Olivia Rodrigo.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's actually really funny.

[B]

So pop music is a genre.

[A]

I was with you 100%.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. It's slowly making its way to Broadway. I don't know if you've heard of these things called jukebox musicals.

[C]

Look at. Look up this guy named Neil Diamond.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

Yeah. What's that show? Abbats? A, A, B, B, A.

[C]

That's the song format.

[B]

Yeah. But yeah, it's. That's it.

[A]

We don't have enough time for that.

[B]

But it's like Firth and Sondheim were like, they got the memo on Sabrina Carpenter during driver's license, but not during espresso. And that's what Gussie is. Gussie is the one that everyone hates because she's there and she's ambitious and she is manipulative, and she's also a woman of a certain age in an industry that's not forgiving towards women in general, but especially once they hit Gussie's age and clearly married her second husband. No, sorry. This is another continuity thing. They portrayed Gussie as someone who is like the producer. What's the name of the producer?

[C]

Joe Josephson.

[A]

Yeah. Joe Josephson.

[B]

Joe Josephson.

[A]

Crazy made up name.

[B]

That was truly them.

[A]

A last minute.

[B]

Yeah, that was at 3am the show opens tomorrow. Like, and what are we gonna call this girl? Joe Josephson. It's like Becky. Every woman, but it's. Or like. Oh, no, sorry. Becky Goodhair. That would be her name.

[A]

We're back to pop music.

[B]

Beyonce is more than just pop. And you know what?

[A]

She's. Yeah, that's true. She is all genres.

[B]

Sorry. I just realized we're probably never gonna have a Beyonce jukebox musical because no one could afford it.

[A]

No, they can't even. They can barely afford to lip sync her songs on Drag Race.

[B]

This is true.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's never happening.

[B]

Sorry, what's our time right now? Okay. We're. We're still so good.

[A]

Sorry, it's been 82 years.

[B]

Franklin was just getting divorced the first time when we started this podcast. No, but so, you know, in the show Gussie, you know, we meet her as Franklin's second wife and she's kind of being painted as over the hill. And we find out that she was married to Joe Josephson and was a big star with him, but. And she'd had multiple husbands before him. But then when we see her like two years earlier, she's his secretary and she's a nobody. And I'm like, so did she ever. Two marriages before Joseph, like in the six months when she was a secretary to his wife and Broadway star? Or was. Were these like high school marriages? Or does she just lie?

[A]

Or is she a child bride?

[B]

Or did George Firth not do his dramaturgy? And am I dragging a man who cannot come here and defend himself? And look, the lights have not changed. So I think Sondheim knows I'm right about this. He's like, I turned. Told George about this 1981. He said, no one's gonna have a, you know, a platform in 40 years to talk about this, and if they do, they should get a life. To which I say, george, but no, I don't know what's what. What. How do you feel about Gussie, Rachel, as a woman yourself?

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Is that famously. As a woman.

[A]

Put it on my shoulders, why don't you?

[B]

I talked about queer culture, speaking for all gay men. And so I think you should.

[A]

No, that's true. I think what your assessment is correct. I think the show projects and puts a lot of the negative things on Gussie. It makes it hard to enjoy her. It makes it kind of hard to enjoy the. It's like an incredible undertaking of the performer who's playing her. And it doesn't give her a lot to work with. She's not terribly dynamic. It's just sort of like a woman is plot device, but also it's progressive because she gets to see sing songs and dance in sparkly outfits.

[B]

Yeah, the outfits are good.

[A]

The outfits are. I can't remember who performed her on Broadway. Just wonderful.

[B]

Crystal Joy Brown.

[A]

Thank you so much. Too many names rattling my head. I think that she did about as good of a job as you can with a character like that.

[B]

If you go online, the Kennedy center production from 2010. 2. No one's correcting me, so I'm right.

[C]

The roll Esparza.

[B]

Yeah. The one where Raoul Esparza is Charlie Pincus. Emily Skinner is Gussie and is. Okay. Sideshow People. Sideshow, yes. Yeah. That woman did not almost destroy her voice in Sideshow for us to not remember her and what she's given the gay community. But her Gussie is pretty fantastic as well. Will, as a straight man, I would like you to represent all straight men right now and tell us why Franklin Shepard exists as an ink. Yeah.

[C]

In the context of who is he.

[B]

Why is he, and why should we care?

[C]

I don't necessarily think you should just care about, like, just him. I think it's like, it's everybody in that group. But there was just so much.

[A]

Is the question, like, why is it Frank focus. Like, why. Why does the musical sort of. Is he the nucleus of the cell?

[B]

I'm being a little Diane Sawyer right now and just sort of, you know, nagging you both because you're trying to.

[A]

Get a sound bite.

[B]

Yeah, listen, I have my take, and I don't agree with this criticism, but it's the. It's a major criticism people have had of the show, of the center of our show is this character that is so unlikable, so hard to follow. Why should we care? Why are we following him? And, you know, just. Again, Will, because you represent every single man on this earth.

[C]

We are a monolith.

[B]

Yes, that's true. I want you to speak to all of the masses.

[C]

I think based on it being so many musicals historically focus on, like, you know, how did this white man get into this mess and how is he going to get out of it? And this one, we're focusing, like, in starting backwards, it's not necessarily redemption because he doesn't change, but we are able to see how we can change and avoid those behaviors and not fall into the same traps of ambition that Frank Does. I'm not sure it's such a. I.

[A]

Think it's a very human depiction. I mean it gives the actor and the like just. It's complex, it's layered. And I also think that Jonathan Groff was like the perfect. Because he has like enough charisma to make you still care about him while he's doing all of these things that are objectively terrible.

[B]

Yeah, well, so I don't think that a character has to be perfect for us to follow them. In fact, that would make a very boring show of people just making very informed, rational decisions for two and a half hours. And it's like that Family Guy clip of the even couple instead of the odd couple or the two guys who get along great. And it's like we both wake up at 8:30 and we both set the table for breakfast and we both wash the dishes and we respect each other's boundaries and Peter Griffin just shouts from the audience. There's no conflict. I mean just like watching man like guide his personal life, his, his career in just a very even tempered way for two and a half hours is so boring. There'd be nothing to spring from songs and. Yeah, I just, I, I agree. I think that by showing someone doing something bad, it's not the show endorsing it. And by trying to explain how it comes to be, it's not endorsing it. And you don't have to have characters say every five seconds. That's bad, Frank. Although I do think Merrily kind of does do that. Like every, like I feel like every five minutes.

[A]

But they do it at the beginning of each scene, which is so weird. They do it before he. No, I'm making it sort of like that.

[B]

It's like the filter. It's like before you watch this next scene, just know Franklin's a bad dude. And then you watch the scene and you're like, yeah, he is. But Groff just looks so good in those pants.

[A]

That neck though.

[B]

Yeah, but that he got that neck.

[A]

And it's receive a restraining order.

[B]

I'm so confused. I'm so confused by the neck thing. It's of all the parts. Like I would if you were to say that.

[A]

I like that they felt comfortable saying it to you. That's my favorite part of it.

[B]

Yeah. I will say the double edged sort of being who I am and how I act in my world is people just are very comfy saying absolutely anything to me.

[A]

And that's a sign for all of you. Just whatever you want.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm Like, I know therapy is ext expensive, but I need you to know that I'm just gonna make you worse. So please don't DM me with, you know, your personal problems. I just think you need.

[A]

I'm gonna make you worse on a T shirt. I think that's the merch.

[B]

I actually. No, we do. We. We're gonna. We are gonna make merch soon. So I don't know if anybody follows me on Instagram. And if you do, I'm so sorry, but I would. So I was making Miss Sally bowl. This is how you also know that this is a true Broadway breakdown episode? Because we're having a tangent that has nothing to do with the topic. I was making the Sally bowl while I was watching the great British Baking show. And I was thinking to myself as I was painting it, I think I'm 75 now, but it was like a very my grandmother thing to do. And I did a little video and I showed people how you're gonna vote. And I put on that little piece of paper that just said, if Judy Kuhn can turn Cosette into a Tony nominated role, we can achieve anything. And everyone said, that is merch. And I said, I'm trademarking it. We have footage of me writing this down. So I think this is, like. I don't know, it's something to energize you into this world. They're just like, if Judy Kuhn can take that bale of hay Cosette and get Tony nominated over Fantine, by the way, and Madame Thenardier. Like, it was Cosette and it was Eponine, and Eponine got to die. So she got the Tony, but Judy got a nomination for that. For singing in my life and walking off stage for the rest of the show. And if someone can do that, we are capable of anything in this world, I am telling you. Yes, exactly.

[A]

It's very motivating.

[B]

We can make Gussie three dimensional. Yet I'm telling you, we can get George Firth back from the dead.

[A]

George.

[B]

Hello, George.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Oh, yeah, Sunday. We sure were talking about Sunday. If you were to do a production of Merrily Yourself, what would be your interpretation? How would you want the world to see Merrily the way you see it, or did this production do it?

[A]

This production was very close, I would say. I mean, do you have a thought, Will, while I'm organizing mine?

[C]

No, I'm also organizing. I'm not sure.

[A]

A bigger orchestra. I want a bigger orchestra for sure.

[B]

When would more instruments not be a Good thing.

[C]

Threepenny Opera, the Bubble Bowl.

[B]

Oh, you know what? I guess this is on my own prejudice, because I'm speaking of Kunzy. I'm used to the 19:4 she loves me recording, but I don't want like a 30 piece orchestra. And she loves me. I want like 15. I want it intimate and cute. Urinetown. No one wants a 30 piece orchestra for Urinetown.

[A]

Yeah, I guess it's when the production calls for it, but I think Merrily throw.

[B]

I want 90 on that. I want every horn known to me.

[A]

I want to be knocked over when the overture starts.

[B]

Yeah. I want to be as wet as groth by the end of the overture. I want to be doused with music.

[A]

I was going to say, what is making you wet in that scenario?

[B]

Okay, okay.

[A]

That was a bad question. That's my fault. That's why I'm not hosting. That's why I don't ask the question.

[B]

Yeah, get your own podcast.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

I guess an extension of this question is how do we. How do we think Merrily might change in its format going forward?

[B]

Because has anybody ever tried to do.

[A]

It in chronological order? Has anybody been like, you know what? Obviously that wasn't working. It's not permitted.

[B]

It's not permitted.

[A]

That makes sense.

[B]

Anytime people try to mess with it or do any kind of, like, interpretation of it, that Sondheim estate comes down on them harder than.

[A]

I think that's fair.

[B]

Yeah. Harder than like Taylor Swift with a cease and desist. But it's. I don't know, it's. Speaking of boldness, people get very bold at their Sondheim productions. People have lots of ideas that they should just write in a journal, but they instead put it on a stage. And like, my hot take is, while I really enjoyed this most recent into the woods, like, it was a lovely production. Yes. That's not the hot take. That's not the hot take. The hot take is. Part of the reason why it was so lovely is we have spent so many decades with people doing into the woods that have ideas, and we had to sit and witness those ideas. Like if you went to a college that had a theater, you saw an into the woods where you were like, okay, I think you should have just sat on that a little bit longer. Like, my friend at Northwestern said that they did one that was done, I'm so sorry to say this, in a concentration camp. Yep, Yep. There was a production in Seattle, I think, where the witch was literally her garden physically, so her nectarines were up here. And her, like, cabbages were, like, down below. And I was like, I think. You know, I think having lovely doodles in your dream journal is wonderful. I think you should stay far away from into the Woods. And so when this production came out, I was like, hey, I've got an idea. Let's do into the woods as written as it's perceived. Just. It's a fairy tale with people. And that cow is a cow, and that dress is a dress, and that giant is a giant, not a card in a watchtower.

[A]

And we cast people that everybody loves.

[B]

People who can act and sing. Just saying. And we all were like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Bold.

[A]

A revelation. Try getting a ticket at City Center.

[B]

You can. You can do it. You flop. That's like. You flop. Flop. Garbage. Trash. You can't afford our into the Woods. Well, buh. Bye. Well, like, I mean, I feel like the next. I don't know, like the next Sunday we're gonna see is someone be like, okay, hot take. What if we did Sunday in the park with George, and it takes place in France, and it's about a painting, and everyone's like, oh, my God. Mind blown.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

The next production of Cabaret, it's gonna be about Cabaret. We're just gonna be like, oh, my God, the mc, He's a person. He's not a puppet. It's gonna be.

[C]

You mean he doesn't have to do his arms like he's doing the swastika version of the ymca?

[A]

Watch it back. Watch it back.

[B]

I was gonna say he looks like Pride as painted by MC Escher, but, yeah, I think that yours is even better.

[A]

I still can't get past calling someone a flop. I'm gonna. I'm gonna.

[B]

That's. Have you ever called someone a flop?

[A]

No, but I'm gonna start doing it a lot.

[B]

Do you not watch Drag Race?

[A]

Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, you're right.

[B]

Yeah. Trixie Mattel will always say, hey, Floppy.

[A]

Yeah, I guess I didn't think about it in terms of, like.

[B]

I know I didn't think about it.

[A]

In terms of theater.

[B]

I was gonna say pride is just three weeks ago, but, like, has the homophobia turned over now? Is that what you're talking about?

[A]

Sorry. I married a man.

[B]

You. You married man? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

The monolith.

[A]

The only one.

[B]

Yeah. I think if I were to do Merrily, I would keep Frank Jr. Off stage and just have him talk in the other room like Mary Jane's son in Mary Jane. If anyone saw Mary Jane, that was on that production was beautiful. Rachel McAdams was incredible. My favorite thing was that they kept that kid off stage. It's. I just. I'm gonna say it till I die. And I like children. I think they're fun, but keep them off my Broadway stage. That's all I'm saying.

[A]

I can't.

[C]

Well, the kid in Mary Jane didn't call it Mary Jane, so. So that. I think that's the difference.

[B]

Rachel McAdams can pronounce her R's. That's all I'm going to say. Okay. Someone asked where this score ranks for you in Sondheim scores in the whole Kenom. The other question is, are we talking, like, listening to it alone, seeing the show? Because that's very different. I do not necessarily listen.

[A]

I think if they're asking score, we're separating it from the. The rest. I think we're just talking, sitting. Listening.

[B]

Yeah. I'm saying because, like, I will watch Assassins start to finish, no problem. But I'm not really listening to Assassins a lot. Maybe something just broke, which is. I feel like that's also a hot take. Not everyone likes that song in Assassin.

[A]

I like it.

[B]

I think it's great. Okay, Merrily in our rankings. Okay. After.

[A]

You know what?

[B]

Show of hands. Merrily. Of all Sondheim scores, is it your number one? Show of hands? Okay. Number two, would you say? Okay. Three, make your list in your head for a minute and think about it. 4. I say this like, there's, like, something going to explode soon, but I want people to take a minute to think about it. All right? Five, six, six, seven. Yeah, now you're. Oh, seven. Okay. Someone likes the frogs more than Merrily.

[A]

What can I say? Ribbit, ribbit.

[B]

Oh, the frogs.

[C]

Before we move on, I want to say let's not forget the score from Reds.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

My God.

[B]

Oh, wow. That died faster than Bobby, Jackie, and Jack. Okay, so I'll say for me, like, Merrily. I would probably put Merrily in my top five. It also depends on the mood I'm in, because if I'm feeling nostalgic, I actually don't go for Merrily. I go for Follies. If I'm feeling sophisticated, like, if I've got Prosecco in my hand, it's night music. If I've got a bourbon in my hand, it's company. If I'm, you know, trying to fall asleep, it's the frogs. If I'm going through a breakup, it's passion. So, you know, like, how people will listen to music. Not people People have talked about, like, listening to music and crying in the mirror. Like, listening to driver's license or you're so vain. Like, that's me listening to I wish I could forget you or. Yeah. Is that the song? Yeah. I don't know how I let you. Yeah.

[A]

For people who slide down the wall while they cry. Yeah.

[B]

That's me being like, I can't. I'm sick. Because it's just that show is for the delicate people of the world. I would say so. For me, it would be Follies Sweeney Sunday. Merrily. No, Merrily Sunday. I keep forgetting about the day off. Merrily Sunday. And then.

[A]

Was it Chroma Loom number two?

[B]

Yeah. And then night music, I think. Yeah. Night music will usually go up one or down one, depending on how drunk I am. Don't say. Don't look at me like you're judging me. We all know what it's like when you have an extra glass of. And all of a sudden you're like, oh, the Miller Sunshine. Yeah. Rachel, I think.

[A]

I think Merrily's number two for me.

[B]

Two?

[A]

What's number one for you, Sweeney?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We were talking about this, actually, earlier today. No, I wasn't talking. I was talking to Jen about this.

[A]

I was like, I don't remember this at all.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

What's next?

[B]

My brain is more addled than Gussie and Franklin's relationship timeline. It's. I was talking to Jen Tepper about this. We're like, Merrily. Right now has become, like, the basic answer for Sondheim, which is so weird because 10 years ago, it was, like, very much a deep cut.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which, like, does that mean in 10 years, like, the Frogs is gonna be the basic answer that, like, road trips.

[A]

I mean, if they put Harry Potter in it, it might be.

[B]

Can he make that score more interesting?

[A]

Yeah, I think so. Why not?

[B]

Really? Shaw pants? Who's listening to the Frogs all the way through?

[A]

I.

[B]

Did you stay awake the entire time? Just be honest. Thank you. Thank you. That is a great opening number.

[A]

But here's the thing.

[B]

Introduction. Introduction. Invocation is great. Say what?

[A]

I fell asleep in the concert. Yeah. But I think you throw Daniel Radcliffe in the pool, and things just got a lot more interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Let's put it back in the pool.

[A]

Yeah, let's put it back in the pool.

[B]

Is. Is Daniel wearing his Equus costume? I think that that was a culture joke, and this is a cultured room. I want to thank you all for reading and knowing your British plays. Thank you very much. Okay, this is. This. I like this crowd. Everyone's liking my frogs jokes. I like my echoes jokes. Yeah, the frogs, man. That's not gonna. That's not gonna come back around. And if. And if it does, that's just us being. Try hard. Yeah.

[A]

Well, I mean, I think it's. I mean, I think especially since Sondheim has passed, it's. It will have a moment.

[B]

But he's even acknowledged in part. Part one or part two. Part one. It's in finishing the hat. Yeah. He talks about the frogs where he's like, no, the first time it was fun. But then when we did the Lincoln center production, that was just Nathan Lane being like, write more songs. And I tried. And so, like, there's Dress Big, that song, right? Yeah. That's a song title. I didn't just make that up. Yeah. Travel. What is she. What's the one at the Boatman? The one that's so long and so slow, even though it's like 90 seconds. Yeah. We can't think of it and how this room has listened to it. That is all you need to know. Yeah. So you said Sweeney Will.

[C]

Is it Merrily? I think Merrily is five for me, even though I love Merrily. But it's like. I think I'm going like Sweeney night Music, Follies Co. Merrily.

[A]

Are we counting where he wrote both, or can I throw, like, west side Story in there? Because that changes things. No, I know it's like lyrics, but, like, I mean, if I'm sitting here.

[B]

No, that's your step, kid. No, that's.

[C]

I'm throwing in the songs from Dick Tracy.

[B]

Sure. Yeah. Well, if we're gonna just do all that, we might as well throw in all the Roots reviews. Putting it together side by side by Sondheim, all that bull. The Boy from. Anyone know that song?

[C]

The Mad Show?

[B]

The Mad Show. It's a good song. I had the pleasure of watching Katie Finran do that number at Williamstown. And that is one of the few moments of my life that I look back on fondly.

[A]

Dark stuff.

[B]

We were talking about Merrily, were we not?

[A]

We sure were.

[B]

Imagine if this was a passion episode. Like, imagine how I don't know that.

[A]

Anybody would have voted for us to talk about passion for. For an hour. Like, if we're being realistic.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. There's so many other slips of paper in here. I guarantee you somebody wrote In Paradise Square as a joke.

[A]

I could have talked about Paradise Square for An hour.

[B]

I could have talked about my feelings during it. Yeah. The man across the aisle for me was playing Candy Crush the entire time. The entire time.

[A]

Did he do well or was he winning?

[B]

I guess so, because he kept playing like it wasn't. It wasn't a new game. It was. I don't know what it says about me or the show that I actually remember how well he was doing because I was watching him during it. He did put it away for Let it Burn, but then I was like, well, you don't know what the song means in context, sir.

[A]

Yeah, he just fell out of a coconut tree.

[B]

Yeah. He's watching Old Friends now and being like, oh, great. So I'm like, but you don't know what it means. But I'm Brinky and Sound of Music, but it doesn't mean anything. All right, we've got, like, two minutes left. Will. Rachel.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

This has been a lovely deep dive. I'm not used to doing episodes this short. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

We'd still be on like, the Kid. I think if we were really, we would have talked about that for a long time.

[C]

The Kid, the Dan Savage musical.

[A]

I honestly don't even know what that is. I honestly don't know.

[B]

That was Chris Sieber, right? Yeah. Yeah, it was a gay show. That's all you guys need to know. Yeah.

[A]

We're cutting into our two minutes. I'm so sorry.

[B]

Yeah, we're wrapping it up. Okay. So you said it's number five for you in terms of scores. Number two for you in terms of scores, in terms of shows full on shows, like the full comprehensive musical itself.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

To rank it for you in Sondheim. Yeah. Top is in your top five.

[A]

Let'S say yes.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Well, I feel yes as well.

[A]

I think it would be lower than two, but I think it's maybe like the top five or six.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And that said, if it were. If it was like, hey, let's go see Marilee. I'm like, yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

I'm always seeing Merrily. Yeah. But I'm always seeing most things. So that's an unfair.

[B]

Listen, if Diana were still on Broadway, I'd be there tonight. But that doesn't mean it's not. It's not in my top 10. Yeah. It's just absolutely like, listen, we lost Diana, but we gained Titanique, and that is what we call balance night class. We do not have Titanique and Omarry by accident at the same time. It's because Diana left us and she was like, I'm giving you A gift.

[A]

She walked so they could run. Yeah.

[B]

She skipped so they could dance. All right, Will. Rachel, it's been so wonderful. Where can people find you if you want them to find?

[A]

Sure. So we are at the theaterlovers on all major social media platforms. It's T h e t h e a t e r underscore L o v e r s. We also just launched our website as of, like, yesterday morning, where we're selling merch and all sorts of fun stuff. So that is where you can find us. We make memes, sketches, all sorts of wonderful things, and then we do history deep dives as well. So if you're like a theater history person, we've got you covered there as well.

[B]

They've also done two episodes of my podcast, Broadway Breakdown. Wherever you listen to podcasts, both of them, Tony, prediction episodes this year and last year. Listen to last year. They were both so wrong.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. That was fun. If you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram. Attcoplek. Usual spelling. I'm pretty sure BPN has spelled it correctly. Yes, Alan, you spelled it correctly. My name. Yes. It just has Internet, right? It just says Internet. Well, that's how my name is spelled in France. If you want to listen to the podcast, it's available everywhere. Thank you so much, guys, for being here today. This has been a fantastic time. We hope you enjoyed it.

[A]

Thank you so much.

[B]

Thank you so much. Hey, we did it. Joe.

[A]

Joe Josephson.

[B]

Yes. Joe. Justin.