Broadway Breakdown: LIVE at Broadway Con! (w/ The Theatre Lovers)
August 1, 2024 | Host: Matt Koplik | Guests: Will & Rachel Anderson (The Theatre Lovers)

Main Theme & Purpose

In this live episode recorded at BroadwayCon 2024, host Matt Koplik welcomes Will and Rachel Anderson (The Theatre Lovers) for a raucous, insightful, and hilariously foul-mouthed deep dive into Stephen Sondheim’s cult-favorite musical: Merrily We Roll Along. The conversation covers the show's backwards structure, convoluted history, memorable songs, plot holes, and its journey from legendary flop to its celebrated recent revival—plus plenty of tangents that only true theatre geeks would love.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Merrily We Roll Along Plot – In (Backwards) Brief

[02:03-03:12]

• The show is told in reverse chronological order and centers on three friends—Franklin Shepard, Mary Flynn, and Charley Kringas—who start out full of hope and promise, but whose relationships deteriorate over the years.
• "It starts off with, they are no longer friends. And you work backwards in time to see how the friendship broke apart and the hope that they had in the beginning." (Rachel, 02:53)
• Central questions: How do we change? How do our dreams change? How are we manipulated by what we want?

2. Character Rundown & “Supporting” Frank’s Greatness

[03:40-06:00]

• Franklin Shepard: Framed as a musical genius (“They make you believe he’s the second coming of Leonard Bernstein. And we only hear one composition the entire show.” – Matt, 03:54)
• Charley Kringas: The lyricist & BFF; often suspected by fans of pining for Frank.
• Mary Flynn: The trio's emotional glue, but her role often feels underdeveloped.

3. Sondheim’s Songs – Unforgettable Numbers & Debates

[04:15-05:46, 13:00-14:05]

• Arguments over “Bobby and Jackie and Jack”: Is it brilliant or skippable? (“That is a song that you watch, not a song that you listen to.” – Matt, 04:21)
• Overture love: “If I were a baseball player and I was walking up to bat, I would want [the overture] to be my music.” (Will, 13:00)
• “Good Thing Going,” “It’s a Hit,” “Rich and Happy” versus “That Frank”: the show’s various opening numbers and their shifting tone from cynical to hopeful to satirical.
• “Not a Day Goes By”: Considered moving in concert, but theatrically undercut by its late introduction and lack of context for the character who sings it.

4. The Show’s Backwards Structure & Sondheim/Prince Collaboration

[07:27-08:22]

• Based on the Kaufman & Hart play, primarily for its backwards structure.
• Hal Prince wanted a musical “about or for young people,” leading to casting young actors, which confused original audiences and contributed to its flop.

5. Gussie: Villain or Scapegoat?

[09:49-10:40, 36:43-41:08]

• Gussie is Frank’s ambitious second wife, often blamed (unfairly) for his moral decline.
• “They kind of rest all of Franklin's bad traits that he evolves into on her shoulders, which I think is very unfair.” (Matt, 36:43)
• Rachel: “A woman is plot device, but also it’s progressive because she gets to sing songs and dance in sparkly outfits.” (40:10)

6. From Flop to Phenomenon—A Show’s Journey

[20:10-29:17]

• Original 1981 version was a massive flop: “There was the 1981 coked out version with the sweatshirts…” (18:08)
• Changing critical tastes and society’s familiarity with non-linear storytelling have helped its legacy.
• “If Merrily had done, like, Middle of the Road, okay… I don’t know that it would be such, like, a cult. I think the fact that it flopped so hard allowed people to really grasp on.” (Rachel, 27:38)

7. Why Has Merrily Endured?

[28:23-29:54]

• Explores lifelong friendship with rare nuance, plus a timeless score.
• Sondheim & Prince’s own “diamond in the rough”; multiple attempts have been made to “figure it out,” culminating in the recent acclaimed revival.

8. Modern Revival & The Groff-Radcliffe Factor

[10:41-12:02, 30:02-32:50]

• Audience reactions to the new revival: chemistry between Daniel Radcliffe, Jonathan Groff, and Lindsay Mendez cited as a major reason for its newfound popularity and emotional resonance: “What it did for me was that it showed why that friendship is there… you can’t really explain a chemical connection.” (Matt, 32:50)
• Humorous asides regarding Groff’s body: “There is one element of Groff that broke the Internet with Merrily, and it wasn’t his neck. And we all know what I’m talking about. The way he fit into those pants made it a very big deal.” (Matt, 26:31)

9. The “Charlie is Gay for Frank?” Question

[30:02-31:46]

• “Is Charlie Kringas gay for Frank?” is posed, with discussion about the trio’s ambiguous, intense bonds:
  • Rachel: “It’s similar to, like, a Camelot. I think they’re all kind of in love with each other. Is it romantic love? Is it friendship love? Is it respect love? That’s in the eye of the beholder.” (30:58)

10. Friendship, Ambition, & Mess—Merrily’s Emotional Core

[32:47-36:43]

• The show resonates because it deals with ambition, the passage of time, and the struggle to maintain friendships through adulthood.
• “Each time you come back to the show, you’re a new person. You’ve experienced different things. You know, it’s harder to keep friendships as an adult. And you’re seeing that played out in front of you…” (Will, 32:47)

11. Merrily’s Many Iterations: What Works, What Doesn’t

[18:08-24:57]

• The show’s protracted development history: from “Rich and Happy” to “That Frank,” revisions at Old Globe, James Lapine’s interventions; the controversy of “Hills of Tomorrow” as framing device—does the show need it or not?
• Nostalgic shout-outs for deleted/altered numbers and the original cast album.
• “Make a timeline—I need a Claire Danes and Homeland vision board with ties to everything of what… What is this Gussie? Who is Gussie?” (Matt, 08:22)

12. Ranking the Sondheim Scores

[53:01-59:17]

• Polling the room: Most rank Merrily in their Top 5 of Sondheim’s works—others prefer Sweeney Todd, Follies, Night Music, or Company, depending on mood.
• “If I’m feeling nostalgic, I actually don’t go for Merrily. I go for Follies. If I’m feeling sophisticated… it’s Night Music.” (Matt, 54:46)
• Comedic asides about Sondheim’s lesser-known works (“The Frogs”) and the hypothetical impact of Daniel Radcliffe in any role.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I am Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts.” (00:32)
• “I inherited my vocabulary from my grandmother, who speaks like a sailor.” (02:03)
• On the convoluted timeline: “I need a Claire Danes and Homeland vision board with ties to everything of, like, what… What is this Gussie? Who is Gussie?” (08:22)
• “I’m just very famous. Third gasp.” (12:10) – Matt (on seeing the revival twice)
• “If Beth is too much energy for the task… And later on, as the show continues and we have the trio with Mary, that’s the one that’s moving… But when I watch this song the first time, every time, I’m always just like, I don’t know, it’s just…” (Matt on “Not a Day Goes By,” 17:50)
• On the original production: “There was the 1981 coked out version with the sweatshirts, right, with the names.” (Matt, 18:08)
• “I think the fact that it flopped so hard allowed people to really grasp on.” (Rachel, 27:38)
• “If Judy Kuhn can turn Cosette into a Tony-nominated role, we can achieve anything.” (Matt, 46:40)
• “If I were to do Merrily, I would keep Frank Jr. off-stage and just have him talk in the other room like Mary Jane’s son in Mary Jane.” (Matt, 52:34)
• “If I’m sitting here… No, that’s your stepkid. No, that’s—” (Matt, on whether to include Sondheim’s work on West Side Story, 59:28)

Speed Round: Hot Topics and Running Gags

• Takedowns of the show’s plot holes and timeline (“Who among us, right?”, 25:46)
• Groff’s pants (“His neck is not in those pants. So I’m just sitting here being like, what?” 26:31)
• Sondheim trivia and shade (“Sondheim himself isn’t a big Bounce guy.” 06:36)
• Running jokes about flop shows, Drag Race, and pop music seeping into Broadway.
• Multiple passionate digressions, “tangents that have nothing to do with the topic” (46:40)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [00:22] – Live intro at BroadwayCon; random selection of topic
• [02:03] – “Merrily We Roll Along” summary & backwards format
• [03:40] – Breakdown of main characters & musical debates
• [07:27] – Hal Prince & Sondheim’s collaboration, casting, and confusions
• [18:08] – History of the show’s many versions and score changes
• [21:24] – Audience Q&A: plot holes, Groff’s appeal, and would a better version have still flopped?
• [28:23] – Why Merrily endures; Hal Prince’s reflection
• [30:02] – Charlie’s potential attraction to Frank discussed
• [32:47-36:43] – Why friendship and emotional connection are the show’s heart
• [36:43] – Gussie’s development and female characters in Sondheim
• [53:01] – Sondheim score rankings and Merrily’s place among them
• [61:33] – Wrap-up and guest plugs

Credits & Where to Find the Guests

• Will & Rachel Anderson (The Theatre Lovers):
  • Social handles: @thetheater_lovers (major platforms)
  • Website: theaterlovers.com (memes, merch, history deep dives)
• Matt Koplik:
  • Instagram: @tcoplek
  • Podcast: Broadway Breakdown available on all platforms

This episode offered a quintessential Broadway Breakdown experience: deep theatre intel, sharp opinions, fierce debates, Sondheim nerdery, and no small amount of laughter. If you love musical theatre in all its messy, magnificent glory, it’s not to be missed.