LOVE! VALOUR! COMPASSION! w/ James Crichton

Summary

Broadway Breakdown Podcast Summary

Episode: LOVE! VALOUR! COMPASSION!
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: James Crichton
Date: February 2, 2023

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Episode Overview

This episode of Broadway Breakdown features a passionate, free-wheeling deep dive into Terrence McNally’s seminal 1994 play Love! Valour! Compassion! as part of the podcast's "Big Move" series, spotlighting works that moved from Off-Broadway to Broadway. Host Matt Koplik and returning guest James Crichton explore the play’s history, production, legacy, and continued relevance (or lack thereof) in the queer theatrical canon, while also meandering into personal anecdotes, theatre gossip, and tangents about Broadway’s golden eras. Expect frank opinions, plenty of four-letter words, and a tone both affectionate and irreverent.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Broadway Context: 1990s Turning Point

• 90s Broadway Optimism:
  The hosts reflect on the early-to-mid 90s rebirth of American theatre, noting a shift away from the anemic 80s dominated by mega-musicals. Matt:
  "The 90s was the beginning of an optimistic turning point...started with plays and revivals of musicals and then got more so with original musicals." [02:36]
• 1995 Best Play Tony Lineup:
  Love! Valour! Compassion! was up against Arcadia, Indiscretions, and Having Our Say—a stacked season in retrospect, yet perhaps underappreciated at the time. The off-Broadway-to-Broadway transfer was rapid, reminiscent of more recent hit musicals like Hamilton.

2. Terrence McNally, Joe Mantello, & the Original Production

• McNally’s Career Renaissance:
  Having lagged in the late 80s/early 90s, McNally returned to prominence with Kiss of the Spider Woman, then hit his stride with Love! Valour! Compassion! and Master Class (Tony wins in successive years).
• Joe Mantello, From Actor to Director:
  Known as Lewis in Angels in America, Mantello quickly transitioned to directing, and this production was instrumental in launching his acclaimed directorial career:
  "He was not...a name director, and Spinella and Nathan [Lane] were like the biggest names in the cast..." [08:34]
• The Definitive Production:
  The hosts watched the Lincoln Center recording, which McNally called the "definitive" staging. They praise Mantello’s dynamic use of music and movement and acknowledge the power of the original ensemble—especially Nathan Lane, Stephen Spinella, John Glover, and Justin Kirk.

3. The Play’s Structure, Characters, and Themes

• Story & Character Overview:
  Eight gay men gather at Gregory’s country house over three holiday weekends (Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day). There are three main couples, one set of twins (played by the same actor), and the interloper Ramon.
  • Key characters discussed:
    • Arthur & Perry (the comparatively “straight-passing”, long-term couple)
    • Gregory & Bobby (May-December, dancer and blind younger boyfriend)
    • John (acerbic British composer) & his twin James (gentler), Ramon (the object of desire), Buzz (flamboyant, musical theatre-obsessed) [35:00]
• Inciting Incident—Infidelity:
  Ramon and Bobby’s late-night hookup is the “big event” that doesn’t derail everything as expected. Matt:
  "I can't tell if the play thinks that that incident does something or if it's tricking you into thinking that it's going to do something because it ultimately doesn't..." [34:58]
• Direct Address & Fourth Wall:
  The characters frequently break from scenes to narrate their memories or challenge each other’s versions; the structure is remarked upon as both Chekhovian and reminiscent of Heidi Chronicles or Torch Song Trilogy.
• Representation & Datedness:
  The original’s all-white, affluent cast is discussed as a product of its time. James:
  “It’s a bunch of affluent white men, mostly.” [16:03]
  They also touch on more recent, diverse queer narratives and shifting attitudes toward which stories are still revived or canonized.

4. AIDS, Tone, and Shifting “Gay Plays”

• From Anger to Nostalgia:
  The hosts compare Love! Valour! Compassion! (comedy with sadness) to Angels in America and The Normal Heart (rage with humor), noting the play is “one of the AIDS plays” but “not as angry, more bittersweet.” The genre’s evolution is mapped from activism to tragic nostalgia to current-day millennial malaise (e.g., The Inheritance, Significant Other). [15:05]
• Memorable Monologues & Moments:
  • The quiet intimacy of Perry (Spinella) and Buzz (Lane) stands out over showier, “important” speeches.
  • James:
    "Of all the people he wants to be there [when he dies], it’s Perry...that was just such a moment of intimacy..." [43:12]
• Humor as Shield:
  Lane’s Buzz is noted as both the comic relief and a window to vulnerability, with his encyclopedic Broadway memory and camp serving as armor.

5. Legacy, Impact, and “Definitiveness”

• Why No Revivals?
  Despite initial success and a movie adaptation, the play is seldom produced today. Matt posits:
  “It’s a product of its time, not just in content but in approach. It hasn’t returned because that original production was so definitive – and maybe the right director hasn’t come along again.” [13:00]
  • A powerful fun fact: Lincoln Center’s video archive restricts rewinding/rewatching to prevent directors from copying Joe Mantello’s staging for regional productions—a byproduct of past legal battles over copyrighting direction. [64:00]
• Awards & Recognition:
  • Tony for Best Play, recouped after 6 weeks on Broadway (aided by a special “Broadway Alliance” keeping costs down) [96:16]
  • Did not win the Pulitzer despite expectations; committee reported “liking” but not “loving” it.

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Quotes & Notable Moments

• "Buzz knows the number of performances of all these shows..." — Matt, on Lane's Broadway-obsessed character [37:20]
• "We all put on masks, right? ... It's fun to be energetic and the center of attention from time to time, but no one is like that all the time. (Nathan Lane) does a really good job of...you realize it's a mask for being violently right." — Matt on Buzz as a character [52:22]
• "Sometimes the bonds of friendship can be...everything." — James, on what the play is really about [43:20]
• "I do think this is true of the queer community: there is a very specific energy and vocabulary to intimate queer friendships. It’s the reading challenge of Drag Race..." — Matt on the play’s banter [68:44]
• "A partner is a pillow, not a blanket. They are your support, not your protection." — Matt [93:58]

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Standout Segments & Timestamps

• 00:05–06:00 — Opening Broadway context, explaining the “Big Move” series
• 09:00–13:00 — McNally’s career bounce-back; Mantello’s directorial emergence; off-Broadway-to-Broadway transfer details
• 34:00–41:00 — Plot outline, character breakdown, and how the play structurally operates
• 43:00–53:00 — Friendship, intimacy, and the telling Buzz/Perry relationship
• 58:00–63:00 — Original staging, 'definitive' production, and the legal/archival legacy (Lincoln Center restrictions)
• 96:00–104:00 — Awards, Tony history, and the economics/contracting that let the play succeed
• 121:00–123:00 — Discussion of closure and symbolic moments (the disposal scene as emotional turning point)
• Ending — Tangent-packed close, six degrees game, and Broadway trivia [131:41ff]

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Running Themes & Takeaways

On Love! Valour! Compassion!’s Place in Queer Theatre:

• It is lauded for its humor, warmth, and ability to balance intimacy with broader, “important” themes.
• Some parts, especially monologues and the “future fates” epilogue, now feel contrived or forced rather than moving.
• The play is recognized more as a time capsule than an evergreen classic—profoundly of its moment.
• The all-white, all-male milieu, so revolutionary (and commercially surprising) at the time, now reads as limited.
• Despite that, the honesty of friendships, the banter, the messiness, and the specifics of lived queer life continue to resonate.

On the Original Cast and Creative Team:

• The guest and host heap praise on Mantello’s fluid, musical staging and the uniformly excellent cast.
• Point out that only Nathan Lane’s career truly skyrocketed as a result, reflecting shifting industry politics for out actors.

On Friendship, Love, and Infidelity:

• The guests both connect most with Perry (“I think honestly, I am most like Perry...A Perry with a Buzz rising.” — Matt [51:33])
• Their favorite elements are the play’s moments of everyday mess and affection, rather than the “statements” about AIDS or death.

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Final Thoughts

Matt and James ultimately celebrate Love! Valour! Compassion! as an imperfect, dated, but emotionally true snapshot of 90s gay life—a play that can feel both comfortingly familiar and frustratingly out-of-step with today. It is an affectionate, geeky, and at times critical assessment, filled with behind-the-scenes lore, personal resonance, and a palpable love of queer theatre history.

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Recommended for:

• Those interested in the evolution of LGBT+ theatre
• Fans of McNally, Mantello, or Nathan Lane
• Theatre nerds who love deep, candid analysis and tangents a-plenty

For particularly memorable insights:

• Check Perry and Buzz’s relationship breakdown and the “pillow, not blanket” metaphor [93:46–93:58]
• Catch the discussion on legal battles and staging copyright at [63:58–66:11]
• For laugh-out-loud banter and reading challenge energy, [68:44–71:05]

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“Join us next week for God knows what, because this whole thing’s being done out of order, and I don't know, it's all a mess. And that's it for now. Have a great week, everybody. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you, James.” — Matt Koplik [135:55]

Transcript

[Matt Koplik]

I end the good old summer time in the good old summertime Strolling through the shady lanes with my baby mine I hold her hand I. Hello all theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called the Big Move and it is covering shows that had such success off Broadway that they just had to transfer and try their luck on the Great White Way. My guest today is an alarm of the pod friend of the podcast, former podcast host himself, and has decided that he's too good for the podcasting world, except for when I blackmail him into coming onto here. Please welcome back our good Judy, James Crichton.

[James Crichton]

Hi.

[Matt Koplik]

Hi, James. This is our first time recording in person in three years.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Crazy.

[James Crichton]

And we have really. It's quite a glow up.

[Matt Koplik]

It is quite the glow up. Well, you're just talking about my face and body, but also the studio in which we are in gorgeous, beautiful studio one of Daddy Miliron. Yes. There is video component for this episode. How much of it will get released? Who's to say? But I'm sure that some of it will come out for promos. BPN is very big on me having video content for them and I'm like, I'm busy and I have a face for podcasts. James.

[James Crichton]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Last time you were on we talked about a play, it was the History Boys and we're talking about another play today. Oh, what plea are we talking about today?

[James Crichton]

We are talking about Love, Valor, Compassion, Not Love Valor by Terrence the late, great Terence McNally.

[Matt Koplik]

Four time Tony winner Terence McNally. This is one of his Tony wins. His second Tony win, actually his first for play. He's, he is up there with Tony Kushner as a playwright who won back to back Tonys for best play this and then masterclass was the following year. He had a good 94 to 96.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, I mean this whole era, I just feel like this early 90s era of, of theater making was so exciting.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

I was thinking about that while we were. Well, you can get into it, but we were watching it today and I was just thinking about like the scope of what people were watching in the early 90s is fascinating to me.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. There. Well, first of all, there was, there, there was a time with Broadway when it was like very anemic.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Like the 80s. Everyone talks about how like you couldn't get arrested on Broadway like it was unless you were one of the mega musicals. It was really hard to break through. And then the 90s was the beginning of sort of an optimistic turning point, and it took a minute, and it really kind of started with plays and revivals of musicals and then got more so with original musicals. But also, it's easy for us to look back at the time and be like, oh, my God, 1991 Tony Awards. We have Secret Garden and Miss Saigon. And once on this island, Ingloratro's Folly's like, what a lineup. But at the time, everyone was like, oh, no, it's not the best lineup. And it's. You don't know what you got until it's gone. But yeah, there's the plays of the 90s, especially the first half of the 90s. We have both angels. America's this masterclass. So many other interesting ones and ones that, like, no one really talks about anymore. Like the season of Love. Valor of Love. Sasha Velour, Compassion. This was up against the play Indiscretions. Oh. Starring Jude Law, Kathleen Turner, Cynthia Nixon, Roger Reese and Eileen Atkins.

[James Crichton]

Wow.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It was like trying to be sexy, but also classy. I don't know much about it. It's like a lot of love affairs. It was like aspects of Love Meets Closer is how I.

[James Crichton]

Very interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, very interesting. And then having our say, which was based off of a book that I know nothing about. And then what was the fourth one?

[James Crichton]

I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I'm looking this up because I'm good at my job.

[James Crichton]

Well, I'm very curious. This is something that I don't have a tremendous amount of.

[Matt Koplik]

Arcadia by Tom Stone. Yeah. Which is not. That was one. So. Okay. I would imagine at the beginning of this season, because Arcadia, and I know this because of the Carousel connection. Arcadia went into the Beaumont after Carousel at Lincoln Center Theater and was very much like, it's the next Tom Stoppard and was transferring from London. And everyone's like, oh, this is going to be the big thing. Yeah, it's going to be the big play of the year. And Love, Valor, Compassion came out off Broadway with Manhattan Theater Club at their underground theater, where, for you musical theater freaks out there, that's where the Julia Murray Wilde party was. For anyone who's actually living in the city and goes to see plays, it's where Prayer for the French Republic just was. It's underground at City Center. And I'm not sure, like, what the buzz on it was originally because he was a respected writer, but I don't think he'd had a play play on Broadway. In a while. His last Broadway work was Kiss of the Spider Woman.

[James Crichton]

I'm pretty sure that makes sense.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And that kind of revived him as in his career as, like, being prestigious again, because there was a period in the late 80s, early 90s, where everything he did, except for maybe, like, Frankie and Johnny and the Clair de Lune, just wasn't really like. Yeah, it wasn't hitting, wasn't landing. And I feel like the early 90s was sort of a revival for him. And starting with Spider Woman and then into this. And, I mean, in a way, like, with Nathan Lane and Steven Spinella, those were probably, like, the biggest theater names in that cast at the time. Spinella was just coming off of Angels, and this was technically the second thing John Mantello directed in New York. He had a play starring Faith Prince called what's Wrong with this Picture? And if you want to know what that was, like, just know that the poster is up at Joe Allen.

[James Crichton]

Really?

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah.

[James Crichton]

See, I don't. I. I feel like a hundred years ago, I watched this amazing YouTube series or, like, a YouTube video of, like, a roundtable discussion with Terence McNally, Joe Mantello, and all of these people that were shaping. Lynn Meadow. I think it was everybody that was sort of involved.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

And I remember them sort of saying that, like, forget exactly what the story was, maybe, you know, but something happened with Terrence McNally and Joe Mantello, and he was kind of like, something clicked. And I knew he was the only person who could, like, stage this. And what a choice.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, Joe. Joe's career is interesting because he was an actor, an aspiring director, and he made his Broadway debut at, like, 30, 31 as Lewis in Angels in America. And I remember when Steven Spinella won. I say remember. Like, I was watching it when it aired, but I've watched tons of research. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I'm like. I'm that st. I love to watch the old Tony ceremonies. I also miss. I also miss the Tony ceremony.

[James Crichton]

Doing plays.

[Matt Koplik]

Doing plays. And also, like, that took place in a Broadway theater.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

When it was. You had 1600 seats. So it was. Yeah, it was just the community. It was not anyone who wanted to buy a ticket. So you really got a sense of what the community was behind and who they were behind based off of, like, who won and what once. Like, I'll never Forget watching the 1990 Tonys and Tyne Daly wins for Gypsy. And just like every gay in the mezzanine is losing. And that is how you know that, like, her performance was beloved even then.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so when, like, angel swept its first year, like, you know, the audience is going insane. And Spinello wins for featured actor, and he would win again the following year for lead. But for featured, he makes a very big point to thank Joe, because that's especially in part one, the prior Lewis relationship. Like, one does not work without the other. And he describes Mantello as, like, a brilliant director. And I don't think any. First of all, no one in New York knew who Mantello was until Angels came out anyway, and he was an actor for that. So for Spinella to, like, in a suit, like, say, like, he's a director and a brilliant one, it's like, oh, I'm sure there are some people in the room being like, huh, maybe I do want one of, like, the actors from the hottest show in town to direct my reading and this other thing. And I don't know exactly how his directing career New York, launched from there, but in terms of mainstream, what I can find on IBDB and whatnot, when he and Spinella left Angels, he directed this Broadway play with Faith Prince around the same time he was directing the Off Broadway production of Love, Valor, Compassion. And as the Faith Prince production bombed that December, Love, Valor, Compassion blew up Off Broadway. So I think it's very fortunate about timing. Yeah. Because Broadway's got a short memory, and you're only as good as the last thing he did. I don't know how we got to this, but Joe. Joe. It's all about the Joe. Oh. But, yeah, so he was not, like, a name director, and Spinella and Nathan were, like, the two biggest names in the cast. So I think, like, maybe there might have been buzzed from that, but I don't think this was, like, expected to be anything, or if it was, it would, you know, be a successful run, and that would be it. But it moved to Broadway almost immediately, like, within. It's a Heidi Chronicles Hamilton kind of turnover, where it was, like, it closed beginning of January and then, like, started previews at the end of that month.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, well, I mean, I know we keep trying to probably, like, move on.

[Matt Koplik]

But, like, I stop acting brand new. You've been on this podcast before. There's structure has gone out the window, along with my sanity and my tolerance for anyone's bullshit. Go right ahead.

[James Crichton]

True. Well, what I was going to say is, it's so interesting to me. Like, I think, you know, I was born in the early 90s, and I am still watching it. Re we can discuss our journeys what led us to here? But I read the play a few years ago after I saw the Inheritance on Broadway and then in the Pandemic, I had like a reading of it with a couple of friends and just like on Zoom and it was wonderful. And then I trusted sort of my two readings of it and then watched it today with you.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, we. We went to the Lincoln center library.

[James Crichton]

And watched it next to each other and side by side monitors and very hot. And also a little hot. But then I got cold at the end.

[Matt Koplik]

But we.

[James Crichton]

But we watched it today and I was. So we'll get there. But what I was going to say is I was blown away sitting there watching it, just being like. When I think of the early 90s, I know where we are today as a theater community. And you do mention, like Tiny Daily, the gays, like, rising and cheering. But like, just thinking about the appet for non theater people, like in the New York City, business people, tourists. It's fascinating to me that there is this slew of very gay plays that are sort of winning all the top awards and are the hottest plays like in the City. It's just. I guess it struck me in watching Joe Mantello's staging of the play that it was very contemporary and it felt very modern. And I was just amazed that that was happening off Broadway in 1990. 1994.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's. We'll talk as we. As we talk about the play itself and the production that we watched, which Terence himself says in the notes for the script he considers to be definitive, that production. And. And I think he's not wrong when you think about that. The play was successful. It ran maybe not like for years and years, but it ran for about 7, 8 months. Recouped its investment in very quickly. And I'll talk about that as well for a little bit. Won best play. Had a movie version with the majority of the original cast, also directed by Joe, but it hasn't come back to Broadway or Off Broadway in any way. And Terrence has had other works come back. Masterclass has come back. Frankie and Johnny's had two raw revivals. He had that one play. It's only a play that no one really liked, but did well because of Nathan and Matthew. And this has not. And I think it's partly because it's a product of its time, but also because that. No, I'm going to say that product of its time, not just in terms of what it's about, but how it approaches what it's about. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. And. And I'm not trying to be condescending to it. Just there's a lot about everything that's. That's made in theater, right? Is essentially a time capsule of the time that it's made in, based off of how it approaches subject matter, how it's written, things like that. And some works magically can stay evergreen just by some weird kind of kismet and having certain creatives over the years come back to it and, like, have an amazing approach. Not always. And sometimes it does take, like, the right person to come back to it 30 years later to find the right way into it. You know, I. Oh, I say with, like, with Carousel, Carousel was considered dead in the water until Nick Heitner was like, actually, this is kind of Tennessee Williams set to music, which was the perfect approach. Everyone thought South Pacific was dead in the water till Bartlett Sher was like, I think this is a good script. What if we got actors and everyone's like, oh, shit. Or like, Boeing. Boeing was considered, like, this huge flop in the 60s, and Matthew orchards was like, what if we just gleaned into how ridiculous it was? And what if I brought in Mark Rylance and were like, apps a fucking. Absolutely. So maybe it's just taking the next Joe Mantello to come along and give this energy. But this is also one of the. For lack of a nicer term, one of the AIDS plays. AIDS plays in the fact. And I wrote this down in my notes where it's like, yet again, an early 90s, late 80s play where AIDS is the thing, it's the big elephant in the room, and it's the thing that makes the play pivot from comedy to series, and it's all about that. And it's so easy in 2023 now to look at that and be like, God, yeah, no, we get it. But we were still very much in the thick of. Had gotten better, but it hadn't gotten much better. Like, it was not necessarily a death sentence anymore, but also, like, there was no cure. And it took, like, a decade of fighting to even get to that point. So there was still a lot of anger and a lot of exhaustion. And you can definitely see that with Nathan Lane's performance in the play. It's more, for me, like, Steven Spinella as Perry or John Glover as, I guess, James, when he's playing James, where it's like, it becomes sort of like the. And now I am Laura Linney and this is Masterpiece Theater, and we will now talk about the thing. And, you know, it's important because I'm speaking in a monotone and that's where I'm like, oh, yeah, this is early 90s attitude of this. Whereas Larry Kramer with the Normal Heart written literally in the thick of it of the Rise Up Movement is like, that play is nothing but anger. And Angels in America is anger with humor attached and love, valor, compassion is mostly humor with sadness attached. And then I feel like once we get to end of the 90s, it just becomes sad. And then all of our gay plays for the early 2000s, just sad.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And we're still kind of sad. Like, speaking of the Inheritance, so much weekend in the country stuff. The Inheritance loves to make you sad. It really is like us gays, man.

[James Crichton]

It made me very sad.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, we don't have to talk about the Inheritance.

[James Crichton]

We won't.

[Matt Koplik]

But. But yeah, speaking of an ensemble of gays.

[James Crichton]

Great. Yeah. It's interesting just to track like, you know, and I know that there was another forget is it a Terence McNally play that second stage did? There's a second play that I'm trying to think about that I'm forgetting off the top of my head. But there's another one that I had wanted to read. But there's this. Yeah, there's, there's a lot of plays about gay men identifying with each other, but I think the other reason that it feels dated is the lack of representation.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, yeah, so.

[James Crichton]

And we, you know, that was very apparent today, watching it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[James Crichton]

As well. It's a bunch of affluent white men, mostly.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. So. Oh, James, this is one of my favorite topics to talk about.

[James Crichton]

Hit me with it.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I talked about this in the Heidi Chronicles episode with our other dear guest, Jesse Field, who is, she would describe herself as well as very out and proud lesbianic playwright and lyricist. And yeah, we, she, she and I get along like, you know, con and green. But we, we were kind of talking about this, I think. Yeah, I think it was Heidi Chronicles. And I don't know why specifically, other than the fact that we're both gay, because they had nothing to do with the play. But we, the queer community is so fascinating to me, especially the queer community in the arts, because we mostly. Our initial reaction now to works about us in the 80s and 90s was like, oh my God, gobble it up. Like, we're show up in droves. We want this thing to be successful and, and even if it's not very good, like, we're going to show up for it. We're going to make sure that it runs and it's going to win that. Tony. We're going to cheer. And Terence wins that award, which was also, like, a major career thing for him as well. He'd been around for so long, and that was his first win for best play. And everyone was like, he did it. But now, especially with our younger friends, our younger benders, as I would call them, it's because we've had quite a bit of representation now in many different mediums, which I'm grateful for. Now it's about whether it accurately reflects your personal story. And if it doesn't, then garbage mama cancel, set fire to it. And it takes all of us as a community, like, a solid three or four years until the thing comes out to then look at it as a piece of the tapestry of our representation. These are bad examples because I don't think all these things are very good. But I remember when Love Simon came out, or Call me by your name came out, and Call me by your name is beautiful. But still a lot of backlash was mostly just like, that's not what it's like to be gay. That's not what it's like to be gay for you. And it doesn't have to represent your story to still be worthwhile. Of course, then the frustration is more like, well, we keep on having, like, five stories a year, and four out of the five are about affluent, prominent gay men with beautiful homes and whatnot.

[James Crichton]

And homes in the country.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And like. And most of them aren't very good anyway. Like, I don't know if you saw any of the uncoupling series that Neil Patrick Harris did for Netflix recently.

[James Crichton]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

Trixie and Katya did a We like to watch with it that was more interesting than the show itself. Basically, Neil Patrick Harrison, Tuck Watkins break up after, like, 25 years of being together. They're the Perry Arthur couple, or rather say Tuck Watkins breaks up with Neil Patrick Harris. And, you know, Patrick Harris is like, I haven't been gay single since the 90s. What do I do? And so he has to, like, learn about Grindr and all this stuff and stony things. But, like, they're all him and all of his friends. Very wealthy, very successful, like, beautiful homes, all this stuff. And it's. That's all fine. I consider that, like, my Nancy Myers movie porn with your. With your beautiful kitchen. But they also, like, tried to make it like, we're just like everyone else. We also have issues in the way of love. I'm like, yes, but also just allow yourself to be real estate porn as well, like, acknowledge the fact that so much of your life is easy and you can. And like, and the problems you have while, like, yes, we all can connect to them. Do not act like it's the Hindenburg. We all go through emotions. They're all. And they're all real. And also, like, all the. All the relationship stuff that Neil Patrick Harris. Harris deals with after he uncouples from Tuck Watkins is like, oh, this guy I'm trying to hook up with is too big. Oh, this other guy who I'm starting to date. I don't know. He gets along with my friends too well. And it's kind of creepy. It's like things are. I'm like, that's not. That's sitcom stuff. And you're trying to make a statement and.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, I need to watch this.

[Matt Koplik]

No, you don't.

[James Crichton]

I think I do.

[Matt Koplik]

Let's watch Trixie and Katya watching it. That's more worth it. Well, also on that note, sitcom making a statement. Have you. Are you familiar with Torch Song trilogy?

[James Crichton]

Yes, very much so.

[Matt Koplik]

I did go to. That was the last time I went to the library was to watch Torch Song.

[James Crichton]

The original.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, the original, like the four hour version.

[James Crichton]

The one that was like off Broadway.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. They filmed it when it was at the Actors Playhouse because that was another one that had a very quick turnaround. They were there for like four months and then moved to Broadway like that July.

[James Crichton]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

And they filmed it at the Actors Playhouse because Matthew Broderick wasn't going to transfer with it to Broadway. He was going to do a movie. And the producers really wanted Matthew's performance preserved.

[James Crichton]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Harvey talks about this in his book.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, I was gonna say, I read this in the book.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. He's like, I was dealing with a virus with my throat. So he like. And you can tell when you're watching, you're like, oh, Jesus, he's gonna make it through the performance.

[James Crichton]

Oh, wow.

[Matt Koplik]

He does. But still. But yeah, it's the whole four hour thing. Horse Song is interesting because it is a bit sitcom Y. Or at least Act 3 is very sitcom Y. But also, like, has a very powerful statement to make and they do it in a really good way because they don't punish you with the statements they're making. They're. They come from very real emotional place and your guard is down because you've been laughing for the last hour and it's not like, gotcha. Why were you laughing? But rather like, no, behind all the jokes, like, I am in pain and that is beautiful. As opposed to something like uncoupling, where Neil Patrick Harris is like, I look like Neil Patrick Harris in my five million dollar apartment and I can't catch a break. I don't know.

[James Crichton]

Maybe I just have something against it.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe I have something against Neil. I don't know. He was a good. What's his face? I was gonna say John Benjamin Hickey, but that's love, valor, compassion. In Assassins. What's his name? The one who shoots Kennedy?

[James Crichton]

Lee Harvey.

[Matt Koplik]

Lee Harvey Oswald. Yeah. What is wrong with me?

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like I knew it was a. I'm. I'm fucking dumb.

[James Crichton]

I can name famously. I can't remember any of the names in Assassins and who does what, but that came to me.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, yes. Well, Sarah Jane Moore. Yes. Shoots the KFC bucket and then Squeaky from.

[James Crichton]

From.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. She's unworthy of the love.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

The only connection we have of this.

[James Crichton]

To the John Mantello.

[Matt Koplik]

John Mantello. The connection. There we go. So back to love, valor, compassion.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

No, you were going to say something.

[James Crichton]

No, but it's. Again, it's tangential, but I was just going to say, like, about Joe Mantello, it's so interesting that he, in a way, is directing this play with so much music and the use of music is so big throughout it.

[Matt Koplik]

And dance.

[James Crichton]

And dance. It's fascinating to me that. Because I think it was. Was a Man of no Importance before Wicked.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, it was. I'm such a freak. Man of no Importance was the spring of these three. No, in spring of 03. Wicked went out of town summer of 03. So he was.

[James Crichton]

And then came back Halloween.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, because I also know this Michelle Federer, who played Nessarose, was in the ensemble, a man of no importance. And I. I'm convinced she got Nesterose not just because she was wonderful, but because she also had the working relationship with Joe.

[James Crichton]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

So when she went in for it, he was like, oh, she's a wonderful actress. She's understudying Sally and Man of no Importance. Let's have her play Nestor Rose.

[James Crichton]

I did not know that.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, she also went to Stage Door Manor, and I remember when I was there, she came to, like, do a Q and A and talked about that audition process.

[James Crichton]

And it's important when you're like, at one of those programs, you know the history.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Crichton]

And everybody's resumes. No, but, like, I just think it's like, what a blueprint of, like, this play and then other plays. Angels in America is So enormous in its scope now that he directed it, but just being in it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

And directing well.

[Matt Koplik]

And he's. He has said he did a. Because he did a conversation with George C. Wolf. And he was like, I learned so much from you. He's like, I always, like, kind of adhere to you. What I'm directing.

[James Crichton]

The best learns from the best.

[Matt Koplik]

But it's absolutely.

[James Crichton]

But it's this thing. It's amazing then that, like, a Man of no Importance, again, a very small musical, leads the way to Wicked, which is this.

[Matt Koplik]

World. Yeah.

[James Crichton]

And then we go into, like, Assassins, and then we. Well, that could probably Take Me Out. Like, I feel like there's so much.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So I think Take Me Out.

[James Crichton]

It's all happening around.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Take Me out was the same season as man of no Importance because Take Me out was another. Was another Off Broadway to Broadway transfer. There was a period in the early 2000s where, like, Joe Mantello was just knocking him out with his big old dick.

[James Crichton]

And it, like, amazing work.

[Matt Koplik]

Just drop and trowel and be like. And what of it? And Take Me out was his first Tony for Best Director.

[James Crichton]

And then the next year.

[Matt Koplik]

Next year, he wins best director of a musical for Assassins. Yeah. At least I'm pretty sure that's the order. Yeah. Because Assassins is David is Dennis o'. Hare. He could not have been in the same shows at the same time. Yeah. It was Take Me out, director of a play the previous year, and then Assassins the following year. Same. And Assassins with the same season as Wicked, So base. And Assassins was supposed to be in 2001, and then they canceled it because.

[James Crichton]

Of 9 11, that I remember reading about.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And then they pushed it back two years. So, like, he went from Take Me Out Off Broadway, transferring to Broadway to Man of no Importance, which was supposed to transfer. Like, that was not. Like, there were contracts signed. But it was one of those things with that creative team, Roger Reese, how, like, everyone was like, sure, Broadway's coming. Ms. Sally Murphy if you're nasty. So, like, of course it was like, everyone's like, we're waiting. We're waiting. Sally's gonna get that Tony now one day. And that didn't happen. And he went right into Wicked. Well, had been doing Wicked, but Wicked was right after that, which, as I understand, he hated. He hated that whole experience.

[James Crichton]

Really?

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. I'm not really spilling tea here. Joe is an actor's director. Right. It's like. It's the. It's having the chance to work with the actors and, like, really Shaping the story. And, you know, directors should be collaborative, but also you are steering the ship. And when you are being undermined by others, it's no longer a collaboration. And basically what happened was out of Town. It was a real power struggle between him and the writers. And the show that Joe wanted is not the show that we got. The show that Joe wanted was a little closer to the book, a little weirder, a little more human based. Stephen Schwartz talks about this whole thing with Wicked of, like, they had this whole funeral scene for Dr. Dillamond and out of Town because Dillman also, like, does die in the book. And, like, for reals, he's not for Play play like he does in the musical.

[James Crichton]

Wow.

[Matt Koplik]

And there's a whole thing about the funeral and how Elphabeth sings at the funeral. And so they made that happen in the stage show. Originally, the stage show was a lot weirder and darker and out of town. You know, it was a bit of a mess. And they were, like, trying to streamline it. Like, the show is running three plus hours. We gotta cut it down. And they kept, like. One of the major things they wanted to cut was the funeral sequence. And Joe Mantilla kept saying no. And finally they were just like, joe, why do you want to cut it? He's like, it's the first time Elphaba wears black. Until then, she's always wearing other colors. And, like, it's a sign of why Dr. Dilliman matters to her and the respect she has from him. Like, she always. Yeah, I just had it, too. She's like, that. Like, she will wear black for the rest of the time now that he's dead. Like, it's her way of, like, connecting with what's. What's important to her in her fight for, like, the animal rights or whatnot. And Stephen Schwartz and Winnie Holtzman heard that, and their response was, no one gives a flying fuck why she's wearing black. She just has to be wearing black at some point. And to their credit, they were right, because people are stupid. But Joe Mantello was also beautifully right, artistically speaking. And when that moment happened, I was like, okay. They, like Whitney Holtzman and Stephen Schwartz, basically locked themselves up for three months after out of Town, did their changes to the show, wrote Dancing Through Life and all the other things. And now it's the Wicked that we all know. And some of us love or. And some of us love some of it. But that, like, that is why that show is not, like, a great experience for him. But the beauty of that is, he was able to channel all that, probably channel all that frustration into Assassins, which was his second Tony and which he does a gorgeous job with. My God.

[James Crichton]

My God. We should change the title of this.

[Matt Koplik]

Episode to just Joe Mantello. Joe Mantello, please come in and sit with us.

[James Crichton]

I mean, he's absolutely one of my idols, but we can move on.

[Matt Koplik]

My. My two favorite working directors on Broadway right now are Joe and George Seawolf. Of course, I would add Nick Heightner, but he hasn't done anything on Broadway since one man, two governors. He keeps on just staying in London like the goddamn Brit that he is. Beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. But so compassion, Please. Let's go. So how did you first know about this play? How did it come into your life?

[James Crichton]

I think I've always, you know, musicals were my way in. Always. And so for me, I think I was a big fan of as a kid. I loved Ragtime. I loved so the Spider Woman. Like, I loved all the musicals that he had a part of or part in.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, this is why you and I are cut from the same cloth. Spencer Glass as well. Hi, Spencer. We talked about this when he was on the pod many years ago. Like, we all wanted to play Molina and Kiss it as Spider Woman. Well, at, like, at the age of 11.

[James Crichton]

But, like, beyond that, for me, what it's always been about. And my students at the camp that. The theater camp that I teach at at Houston, like, they are all. I don't know if some of them just say it because they're being nice, but, like, I always try to direct the show that, like, the composers were not. Maybe wasn't their most successful attempt commercially. Like, I did Allegra a few years ago for Rodgers and Hammerstein. I did, like, I really want to do Dear World. I want to do, like, weird shows.

[Matt Koplik]

You are Buzz.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, I did Anyone can whistle.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, that's less weird.

[James Crichton]

I love Anyone can Whistle. But regardless. So I always sort of look down the path of, where can I? Where can I look? And so with Terrence McNally, that led to, you know, studying his plays and watching those amazing clips of Audra McDonald and Master. Like, do, you know, just all of those. It just opened my world to him. And so this came probably, maybe, like, around. I was actually very strange. And much to Ali Gordon's chagrin, I only saw Angels in America, the HBO version, three years Maybe after I graduated college. And I think I read Love, Valor, Compassion shortly after that. I never had read it in college.

[Matt Koplik]

Wait, why are we bringing up Ali Gordon?

[James Crichton]

Because she loves Angels in America.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah.

[James Crichton]

Yes, it's her favorite show.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, yes. That and Amadeus are why she and I became friends in high school because we were the only kids our age who were like Angels. So Angels.

[James Crichton]

Three years after Angels in America.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, three years after college.

[James Crichton]

And then because I never, for some reason, and I had two different college experiences in play analysis classes and neither focused on Angels in America. So, yeah, I didn't read it until.

[Matt Koplik]

We didn't do anything on Angels when I was in college either. Honestly, I feel like it's just such a huge.

[James Crichton]

It's huge.

[Matt Koplik]

You. That's something you got to, like, spend a semester.

[James Crichton]

Well, but interestingly enough, my brother, who's in finance and is five years younger than me, went to Villanova and he took a philosophy class and they tackled Angels in America for months.

[Matt Koplik]

As well they should.

[James Crichton]

They read the script, they talked about the play, they, like, watched the HBO version. I was like, what? We didn't do any of that.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, well, when you're going for to theater school and you got to cover all the theaters, a lot to do. It's like, yeah, we can't spend four months on Angels.

[James Crichton]

Come on, we have a lot to do.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, like languages of the stage. We talked about it. We definitely. I remember we talked about it. But yeah, I think Courtney o' Connor was like, yeah, we're not covering Angels because that's going to take us most of the semester. She's like, we've got six plays to get through. Seven plays to get through.

[James Crichton]

But it's what led me to.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, Love Isle of Compassion. Yes. There is a whole slew of gay works out there that all of them are important and worthwhile in some way, even if not all of them hold up if some of them are half good or not even very good. I mean, I would say, you know, we have to look at Torch Song trilogy. We have to look at 5th of July, boys in the Band, Angels in America, the Normal Heart, Love, Valor, Compassion. Jeffrey, the Inheritance, Choir Boy. What are some others? I'm not thinking of right now.

[James Crichton]

I know now my. I'm trying to think.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, Trying to think of all the. All the gays.

[James Crichton]

You got a really big. You got a. The right one. So I feel like you got like.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, a big one that we will be discussing later on. This series is going to Be significant other.

[James Crichton]

Oh.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is not epic in terms of size like Angels. It does not cover AIDS like half of these plays, but I think at this moment, it is probably the best representation of being a millennial gay. It's just there are some truths about that play that, like, still make me cry just thinking about.

[James Crichton]

I left and sobbed into the street.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

When I saw.

[Matt Koplik]

I can't talk about it too much just because I want to save it for that episode. But, yeah, I saw it off Broadway. Same with my best friend. Cried and then saw it on Broadway a year later and had to run out of the. I remember they were collecting for Broadway cares, and I, like, pushed Rebecca Nomi Jones out of the way because I was sobbing, so I was like, I cannot. But I also remember intermission of significant other. And I'll tell the story again for that episode, but I. She. My best friend was on the other side of the theater, and so I was sitting next to two random straight girls. And the way that Act 1 ends. Do you remember how Act 1 ends with significant other at the bachelorette party? Yes. Act one ends, and the two girls next to me are like, oh, my God, this play is so hilarious. And I turned to them and I went, this play is devastating.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, it. It freaked me out.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. But.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, no, you're. You're. You're right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but it's. It's. God, I lost the plot so many times already. I had so much I already. I wanted to say, and I didn't. Love compassion.

[James Crichton]

Go back.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Love Alec of passion. I don't even know anymore. Love out of compassion. What's it about? Who's she about? What's her life? What's her story? What's the plot? Of love. Of love. Lower. Compassion.

[James Crichton]

Well, the thing that's also struck me that was interesting today and watching it, is that it feels very much. I recently read a book called Our Country Friends by Gary Steingart, which he actually wrote during the pandemic. And it is about the pandemic and like, a home in the country.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

And it feels love, valor, compassion. Feels so Chekhovian, sort of like in its scope. Like you're kind of waiting to try to figure out, like, what's the. What's the turn? But it's all moving so quickly that it almost feels. I think the other reason that I felt that it. What is it about? Is it's kind of just about friendship, and I think how friendship can be. I feel like I'm winding because I think it's about a Lot of different things, but it's also about nothing. And it's.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's. Well, yeah, it's about queer relationships and friendships. Yeah. The basic premise is eight gay men over one summer at the country home of one of them, you know, and sort of what goes down. There's like one major inciting incident that it does. But the thing is like it doesn't even do anything. That major incident. It's like. And that's something, that's something that I feel like the play kind of. I can't tell if the play thinks that that incident does something or if it's tricking you into thinking that it's going to do something because it ultimately doesn't do much.

[James Crichton]

I feel like it might be the latter.

[Matt Koplik]

That it's tricking you. Yeah, I, I would hope so. I would hope that Terence was smart enough about that basically. So it's, it's. When the play begins, there are three couples. There's Arthur and Perry, the 14 year together. Not legally married but technically married. They wear their wedding rings and they're.

[James Crichton]

The most like have a beautiful apartment together in life.

[Matt Koplik]

The mo. They are the couple that when queer people were fighting for marriage rights kept being like, we're just like you look at our two gays here.

[James Crichton]

No you're not.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, like, but like they are the ones that are most easily swallowable to straight. Yeah. Like one's a lawyer, one's an accountant. They wear, they never wear short shorts. They.

[James Crichton]

Their suspenders are on white button down shirts.

[Matt Koplik]

They're. They're relatively. Arthur is more straight passing than Perry is, but Perry's not over the top. Then we have Gregory and Bobby, which is a May December romance. Been together for four years. Gregory is a dancer, choreographer, supposedly very successful, has his own company, very well known in the dance world. Successful enough to own this country home, this beautiful studio. Yeah, beautiful studio off of the lake. I think we're meant to believe that he's sort of like the white elf in Hilly. That's what I'm gathering. Because he's from like the ballet modern dance world. He's not Broadway. And Bobby is his much younger boyfriend. Partner. Boyfriend who is blind. And they make a point of that in the play of what does it say about a man that he chooses a partner who can never see his work? But I think. I don't know if that's meant to be a statement or not. And then John, who's a British composer who had a big flop of a musical and became.

[James Crichton]

It ran for 13 shows. 14 shows.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Fewer than 15, for sure. Flopped on the West End, flopped on Broadway and is bitter and jaded. He has a twin brother who lives in the UK and does costumes for the National Theater who is the polar opposite of him, obviously played by the same actor. And John shows up with a young dancer, Ramon.

[James Crichton]

Ramon, Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

And then there's Buzz, played by Nathan Lane, who is just sort of like the outlier.

[James Crichton]

Me.

[Matt Koplik]

All of us musical theater obsessed. Like, y' all think I'm musical theater obsessed. I could not tell you the number of performances Wildcat ran for. Buzzcat.

[James Crichton]

Buzz knows.

[Matt Koplik]

Buzz knows. Buzz knows the number performances of all these shows.

[James Crichton]

And Buzz also has custom shirts made of, like, bumblebees and other hilarious, like, one liners. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And has musical theater nightmares and dreams, which I do not have.

[James Crichton]

No, me neither.

[Matt Koplik]

Like one of his opening things, he's like, I was having a musical theater nightmare. They were going to revive the King and I with Tommy Tune and Elaine.

[James Crichton]

Stritch, which would have been a nightmare.

[Matt Koplik]

Fun fact.

[James Crichton]

Blaine Stritch at one point, tummy Tune as the King would have been.

[Matt Koplik]

I would have paid to see it. I would have paid to see it. It recently came out that the public was, in the 90s, was going to try to do a production of Kiss Me Kate with Kevin Kline and Patti LuPone that that was going to become Kevin Klein and Mary Elizabeth Master Antonio and Kevin and Patty on paper sound amazing, but I can. I do not think Patty would have been good in Kiss Me Kate at all. It's just one of those things where I'm like, why? Why? And then there was, like, talk that it might be Mandy Patinkin and Bernadette Peters. And I'm like, why?

[James Crichton]

Wow.

[Matt Koplik]

Sometimes people like, I don't know, bonkers ideas are bonkers until, like, oh, it magically works out, right? You know, like Tyndalen Gypsy is one of those things where everyone thought, like, why? You must be joking. And then it was wonderful.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

But I think we all can agree. Tommy Toon and Elaine's Trich and the King and I. No bueno. The inciting incident is that.

[James Crichton]

Is there one more character? No, no, that's enough.

[Matt Koplik]

Because John and James are the dual roles. The inciting incident is Ramon is the newest member of the crew because he's sort of Jon's boy of the week. They've only been together for three weeks. Even though Jon is clearly infatuated with Ramon. Who wouldn't be? He's very attractive. And Ramon is, like, immediately attracted to Bobby. Bobby is very beautiful, of course. And in the middle of the night, Ramon basically not attacks. They want to make it seem like it was this mutual thing, that they have this connection, but, like, I don't know. Bobby went down to the kitchen to get a glass of milk in the middle of the night, and Ramon was standing there waiting for him. I don't know why he assumed Bobby would come down. I don't know. But he stood there waiting for him. And then basically, like, the two hook up right away. Yeah. And that's the quote, unquote, inciting incident. But the whole play happens. Doesn't happen out of order. They start with the inciting incident, and then they flashback to the beginning of the summer. And then we get Memorial Day, fourth of July, Labor Day, Labor Day. Yeah. All of that one summer. And the play also plays around with the fact that while it's happening before us, everyone's also narrating in time and from the future as well. Yeah.

[James Crichton]

And like, direct address to the audience.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, yes. Which is something that I didn't even realize my play connected to with this play.

[James Crichton]

Oh.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. At the time when I was writing my play, I was like, this is really Torch Song Trilogy meets Heidi Chronicles with, like, a sprinkling of significant other. And then watching this with you today, I was like, oh, and Love, Valor, Compassion, the monologues, for sure, of people just, like, it's not as consistent. Like, whereas Love, Valor, Compassion, like, scenes will be happening and someone will literally come out of the scene to talk to the audience and the actors, the characters will interact with each other outside of the scenes with each other. And it's almost as if they are reciting the events of that summer to a stenographer, and they're all kind of, like, correcting each other. Don't say that about yourself. Don't put that on the record. And. And so that's sort of how it. How it goes. Mine is. I don't know. I don't. Haven't necessarily made up the rules of how the fourth ball breaks happen.

[James Crichton]

It is actually. Really. Yeah. It does feel almost like as if they're speaking to somebody. Like, take this down.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, exactly.

[James Crichton]

Yeah. Yeah. And there was an interesting moment, too, where there. I don't want to give it any of the way.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. First of all, the play is. The play is 27 years old.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Which remind me of that when we get to the epilogue. But 27 years old, and we do spoilers anyway, so.

[James Crichton]

Well, I was just gonna say, like, there's a moment where many of the men in the group come out and they do, like, a dance number together. And Steven Spinella's character as Perry.

[Matt Koplik]

Perry, yeah.

[James Crichton]

Starts applauding for them, but the audience didn't start applauding. And so I was like, I wonder if he's gonna. And then he immediately just, like, turned to the audience and was like, hello. Yeah, applaud. Like, it's so. It was so collaborative in that regard that it was almost as if the audience were. I lingered when I was talking before about the notion of, like, friendship and, like, the show is about. I think it's about friendship because there's two things that happen in the play that I thought were beautiful. One is this direct address to the audience that I just feel that they feel such a closeness to the audience that they can turn to them and they're gonna always be on their side. And I found that to be really moving. And the other thing, again, since we're. Although, I don't know what. I don't wanna jump all the way to the end of the play, but there's this thing where, you know, Nathan Lane's character is. Has aids, and he is sort of contemplating or hypothesizing about what his future will look like or be like. And he grabs Perry, his oldest friend, and he kind of just grabs his hand and is like, I want you to be there when I go. And, like, that just struck me as. You know, my grandmother recently passed away, and I learned so much throughout that process of death about the intimacy of it. And just about. Like, we spoke to, like, there was, like, a hospice was sending, like, a therapist to the house. And. And she was saying to us, you know, you may want to do something, but, like, your loved one may want you to be not in the room when it happens. Like, sometimes people will say they want one thing, but then they don't know what they want. And I just. It just struck me as so. The character of Buzz just struck me as so interesting. Again, as beautifully played by Nathan Lane, because it's this character who is such a, like, performer, and everything is so heightened, and he's always performing. But then the moments of great intimacy were very telling. And I just thought that of all the people that he wanted to be there, it was Perry, like, by his side and asking for. That was just such a moment of intimacy that I felt like, wow, this play is about. Sometimes the bonds of friendship can be. Yeah, everything.

[Matt Koplik]

Something that was interesting to me. So, yeah, the play makes it very clear by the End of the night how everyone knows each other.

[James Crichton]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Perry and Buzz were roommates. They were roommates. When Perry meets Arthur. And so Arthur becomes Buzz's friend, and Perry and Arthur meet the same night that Buzz meets John, the British composer who wrote the musical that flopped. And, you know, they always say, like, Perry and Arthur lasted. Buzz and John did not. But then I also. That makes me wonder then, because they go, oh, John would eventually become our friend Gregory's rehearsal pianist. And I. But they don't say it at the time. They just say, oh, he's Gregory's rehearsal pianist. So you believe at the beginning of the play that they only know John through Gregory. But I think actually Gregory became the rehearsal pianist because of them. Like when he. When his career as a writer stopped going anywhere. Like, well, while you work on your next piece, why don't you play piano for our friend Greg? And then Buzz and John didn't last. John, unfortunately, still was in their friendship group because of Gregory.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Which may be a reason why Perry hates John so much. Like, we, you know, we did that asshole a favor, and now we can't get rid of him, even though he, like, is no longer dating my best friend.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, why am I.

[James Crichton]

And he's just, you know, what's the word? James is.

[Matt Koplik]

James is the light. John is the dark. The dark.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And they. Yeah, and they talk about that. But speaking of addressing to the audience and sort of of that, like, acknowledging the audience, another thing that they do is Gregory, played by Stephen Bogardus. Is that how you say his name? Begardis. Yeah, Stephen Begardis, the choreographer. He keeps a journal. He also has a stutter. And he. And he keeps a journal. And John makes it a point to always read the journal because he has no boundaries, and he thinks that it's his right. He's like, if I'm gonna be out here in the middle of nowhere with you assholes, I'm gonna read Gregory's diary. And I think part of Gregory knows that John does it, so probably writes some stuff in there, hoping John's gonna read it and then it'll sink in. And he talks sort of very candidly about all the friends. Not in any negative way. Like, not in a nasty way, just in a very lightly honest way. And when we get towards the end of the play and John has the diary again, there's sort of like a beat from the audience where they laugh, where it's like, after all we've been through and all, like, this emotional journey, you've gone Through John. Like, you're still gonna read the diary. And John Clifford just looks out of the audience with a face of like, yeah, of course I'm gonna still read the diary. I'm still me.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's. It's. It's. Yeah, it's. It's like they are reenacting that summer for an audience after having lived through it as well as. And coming from a script that they gave a stenographer the year before of typing it all out, like a group therapy situation. And then we get to the epilogue where I'm like, well, now we're in time. Are we?

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but we'll put a pin in her.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So which character resonated with you the most?

[James Crichton]

Oof.

[Matt Koplik]

Not necessarily when you connected with the most, but one that resonated the most.

[James Crichton]

Well, buzz is, like, the obvious answer. Just in the sense that, like, I'm actually not very like Buzz in real life. Aside from.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

The musical theater facts, the one who I feel like, resonated with me the most in a way that, like, disturbs me is. And I don't have the same amount of vitriol, but I think Perry in some ways.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

And I don't know if that's Steven Spinella or if it's the writing, but something about Perry trying to live but can't quite join the other. Yeah. I've always sort of inherently felt a little bit in my own life, if that makes sense.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, absolutely. Makes sense. Yeah.

[James Crichton]

Again, I don't feel the hatred that sometimes I think his character bottles up and then expounds. But there were moments just tracking through him and how he spoke with the audience that I was like, huh?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, with Perry. And maybe it is Spinella's performance, but I never truly got, like, hate, hate from Perry. It's clear that he's got a lot of rage in him.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And that's something that most of them have.

[James Crichton]

Like, you see most of all of us.

[Matt Koplik]

All of us. Yeah, absolutely. It's. You know why toxic positivity is stupid? Because you have, like, those are natural emotions that you have. Right. And you got to find a way to release it and acknowledge it. Otherwise, you're just bottling it up. And it comes out in inopportune moments, like the dinner scene in Act 1, where people just start saying really nasty shit. Perry is very smart, and Perry has no patience. And some another thing that the play kind of deals with, not fully, but acknowledges is infidelity in general because Bobby does cheat on Gregory. That One night and, you know, possibly again.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's unclear. Exactly. And eventually tells Gregory, and, you know, they work through it until eventually they don't. And Perry and Arthur. Arthur had cheated on Perry years ago. The details unclear when exactly it happened. Unclear, but it happened. He told Perry, and they have worked on it and moved on from it. And Arthur says, you know, like, it's. We're terrific. It's just not the same anymore. And you watch them and, like, in a weird way, they are great. You know, like, they hold each other's hands. They're there for each other. They're honest, all this stuff. And, you know, Perry isn't punishing Arthur in any way. There's no. He never brings it up. But you do sometimes see, like, that there's like. Every now and then, it's sort of like opposite magnets where it's like they hover around each other, but they don't fully connect.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is. I say that, as you know, that's not always the case. They're usually pretty connected.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But every now and then, it's that moment where it's like they disassemble. And we're led to believe that that is caused by the affair from how many years ago. But with Perry, I always got the idea that he was very smart, very impatient, and probably cynical. And so, like, when they're having that talk at the table.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, when I say cynical, I mean, obviously he's cynical, but, like, in part of the combination of it all. Because there's a scene towards the end of act one, it's their first night up in the house, I think, and, you know, it's all going fine, and they're talking about the food and all this other stuff and the ballet thing that Gregory wants to do for this AIDS benefit. Oh, I'm gonna have six men who aren't really dancers dress up in tutus and do the Swan Lake. Famous Swan Lake dance at Carnegie Hall. And, you know, Perry hates drag. He finds it kind of gross. And he. Again, it's. It's the inner homophobia, toxic misogyny of just like, I'm. I may be gay, but I'm a man. Right. And I will adhere to.

[James Crichton]

We're trying to hold on to that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Yeah. The concept of a man is what I'm going to hold on to, because, you know, I'm not. I. You know, I just got to be this kind of pillar of myself. But they start talking, and maybe even.

[James Crichton]

The frustration of, like, in his relationship, Arthur is the One who's seen as the butch one. And Arthur comments on it. But Arthur is free enough to dress up and participate in a way that Perry so staunchly expresses reservations.

[Matt Koplik]

Arthur's willing to skinny dip. Arthur's willing to put on a tutu. Right.

[James Crichton]

He won't take off all of his clothes. It's just half. So I think we've sort of landed on. Why is this your answer, too?

[Matt Koplik]

Is Perry my answer? I'm still not entirely sure I asked you, hoping to buy myself time.

[James Crichton]

Oh, but it seems like you're also working through. I think the Perry thing surprised me. Me. But, like, the more that we unpack it, I'm kind of like, oh, boy.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I think, honestly, I am most like Perry. I don't think I'm as angry as Perry.

[James Crichton]

Me neither.

[Matt Koplik]

But I, like, I feel like I'm a Perry with a buzz rising because. Yeah. Because overall, I am not of a buzz energy. I'm. There was a time when I was. And I've. I don't know if I've ever really discussed it. Just like, we all put on masks, right? Of any kind of.

[James Crichton]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

We were. We won't name names. We were talking about the certain bub from my life who definitely puts on a very specific energy for people that I know in person is not who he is. We all have this. And so I remember in high school and in college, it was definitely like, the. I'm on, I'm on, I'm on. I have the quip here. I have this here. And it's exhausting. And it's fun to kind of live life and be energetic and be the center of attention from time to time. But it is an actual. No one is like that all the time. And Nathan Lane does a really good job of.

[James Crichton]

Sort of really good job of.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's like he's on. Because when he's not on, he's just violently right.

[James Crichton]

And that becomes so clear in the play. He's so good at swiftly, like, turning on it. There's also just, like. Let's shout out two things really quickly about Nathan Lane in the show. First of all, the irony of. And I wonder if it was purposeful on behalf of Terrence McNally to give him a shout out as Nathan Lane. Not Nathan Lane. Nathan Detroit.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, and Guys and Dolls.

[James Crichton]

Sue me. That's from Guys and Dolls. And then I think they even talk about Funny Thing Happened on the way to the Forum for a moment, which would be foreshadowing, but, like, just some interesting progressions that I saw it's possible.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm also convinced that he wrote that role for Nathan because they had worked together. I'm almost positive they worked together at that point. I mean, Nathan had done Guys and Dolls already. Yes. And then I feel like, am I making this up? I could have sworn that he and Nathan had done something together and that this was something he had wrote, written for him. I don't know.

[James Crichton]

I have no idea. But if that's the case, it makes utter sense.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. But with the Perry stuff, I just want to say like Buzz, you know, obviously the act. And that's like why the Buzz Rising is me. Just the musical theater stuff and having that put upon energy sometimes. But I'm not like that all the time.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Harry Perry can sort of just sort of see the hypocrisy of everything and everyone all the time. And so that whole dinner table scene when Nathan or Nathan when Buzz is talking, like, I have this photo on my desk of the starving kid in Africa and the vulture is about to eat him. And Perry just like he. Buzz is saying this because he's an empathetic, compassionate person and he's like, it sickens me and it motivates me to do stuff. And Perry basically just like, what are you doing though? What are any of us doing? We say we care and we do. We look at the photo and we feel bad. He's like. But then we go on with our white American lives and we don't directly address the issue of that photo. We do not go out there and we don't try to solve hunger in Africa. We don't try to like find the actual cure. Buzz, they have a running, not joker, like a running theme of Buzz. How is always saying that he's single handedly going to find the cure for aids, but they never talk about what exactly it is he intends to do. It's just. It's just sort of his Don Quixote chasing the windmill dream, but unclear what he's actually doing about it.

[James Crichton]

Well, I think he works at the clinic.

[Matt Koplik]

He works at the clinic. Yes, but. But they never address exactly what that is. He's also a costume designer. He. He basically has two jobs. He works at the clinic and who knows if he actually gets paid for it or how much he actually gets paid. And then he does costumes for Gregory's dance company, which I would assume is more his income.

[James Crichton]

That was actually a part of the thing that broke my heart watching it though, because like it actually didn't even really. I think Perry is the One who introduces that narrative about like, he thinks he's gonna change the world with. But it's like, I. I found then that there was a real moment of tenderness between the two of them after, like, when he said it. Because, like, Nathan doesn't, you know, buzz doesn't turn to the audience and like, you know, giggle or anything. Like, it is a heartfelt moment of like. I do feel that, like the work that I'm doing there is more than any of you were doing. And I am going to help. Like, I found it to be very.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, well, so I. So I bring up the Perry thing just because that I do have that mentality sometimes when I see performative action. Yes. When there was that thing in lockdown during. When, you know, after George Floyd with the Black Lives Matter movement, like having a major revisal, which is great, but so many. There was that trend on Instagram where you would tag 10 people on your stories of like, to show that you were against like police brutality or something like that. And, and it was. The idea was to like show the chain of just how many people in the world actually care and support you. Oh, no, that screen. It doesn't.

[James Crichton]

I don't remember that one.

[Matt Koplik]

I do, because I had two different people tag me and I. It was, it was very short lived. It was like a four day. And I. I do not have a major platform in any way, but I did use what little platform I had to be like, hey guys, this is not actually doing anything. It's not addressing any change. This is performative. You were just, you know, showing your small group of people that you care. You're in an echo chamber. It's like, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna donate to these five organizations. If you can think of any other ones that are worth donating to share them, let me know. Here I'm like, here are the five that I'm donating to. Here are the five things that I'm doing. And like, it's not enough. It's never enough. But it's more than just being like, I feel bad. Tag me. Which I think is what Perry is trying to say. But Perry is too bitter and too jaded to actually be like, what can we do? Like, what? Like, what can we do to help? Instead, what he says is like, what are actually any of us really doing? And you get a foreshadow of that earlier at the beginning of the play when everyone's addressing the audience and saying, this happens, this happens. And you mention how When Perry's telling the audience, he's like giving introductions to everybody, he goes, oh, Buzz thinks he's gonna single handedly find the cure. Nathan Lane as Buzz, he's sort of like at the back of the stage and he pops up, he goes, it sounds silly when you say it that way, right? And then Perry goes back to him, he's like, I know, I'm sorry. And like, Steven Spinella gives Nathan Lane this like, little friendly kiss on the cheek. And that's all you need to see of, like, what their dynamic is, who they are as people and who they are in their friendship. And like Perry and realizes in that moment that he is being cynical about his close friend's dream. And whether it's realistic or not is beside the point. It matters to his friend.

[James Crichton]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And he goes, you know what? You're right. I did say.

[James Crichton]

I'm glad that that registered. It was such a, like, beautiful moment.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

For me. And it was so early.

[Matt Koplik]

It's very early. Well, it's. It's. It's the writing, it's the acting, it's the directing. Because you read the script. It doesn't say that. That's what Perry does. He just says, I'm pretty sure when you read the script, there's not a ton of stage direction. There's a bit.

[James Crichton]

There's definitely. I have it here too. I realized I had a PDF on my phone. But it.

[Matt Koplik]

McNally is very weird about what he chooses to be specific about with stage directions and emotions. And some of them I don't think are accurate. Like, there's one he has. I can't remember it all. There's one he has that's like, it's not something you can act. It was like something you write in a novel about how a character was feeling. And he just had that parentheses. I'm like, how do you stage that? How do you act that? Then sometimes it'll be like, oh, this is happening while that's going on. But a lot of times he leaves it up to the actors. Sorry, you were going to say it. Let me find this thing with Buzz and Perry.

[James Crichton]

No, I'm looking as well, but I.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, no, no, it is in here. Buzz. It sounds ridiculous when you say it like that. Perry. I know, I'm sorry. He kisses Buzz on the head, goes back to his own bed, picks up a pillow and hugs it close to him. So that is in the state structure. So I want to apologize to Terrence for that. But the way that they do it on stage, it's it's re. I remember reading it. I did not get that. I didn't. It did not connect with me in the same way that it did when we watched it, which is also how it should be with plays.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Terence says that in his notes, he's like, play should be watched, not read.

[James Crichton]

Well, yeah. I mean, that goes back to Joe Mantello for a second too. But then I saw something in one of my notes that I wanted to just say. But it's just that, like, he. The way that this is. And for anybody who hasn't gone to the library and watched it, like, you should go to Lincoln center and watch it because it is so wonderful to read and it's so fun. Like, I loved reading it in quarantine with, like, a group of friends on Zoom. Like, it was wonderful to hear it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

Because his stuff is so poetic and it is its own sense of musical. It is very musical. And so it makes a lot of sense that music was. Was added and music is referred to so often. Oh. Which my segue thing, by the way, was it was just so fascinating to me that they chose to end the second act with Bewitched Father to Bewildered, which quite literally, at its core is about an affluent woman. Yeah. Who is, you know, infatuated with a younger man and sort of like, uses all of these. Like, you know, she's showing her intelligence by the words that she's using to describe this affair. And it just struck me as so interesting. Like, here were a lot of these men again, affluent and, like, in their country home, and they have beautiful apartments and lives in the city and they're sort of like, singing about or dance. They were all, like, waltzing too. It's just such an interesting visual. And I just feel like Joe Mantello's way that he brought the story to life is so clear that I understand why this is considered like, a singular or definitive production. Production. Because it's almost as if it's like I can't see it any other way.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, two things. This is the second flu we've covered that has Bewitched in it.

[James Crichton]

Oh, that is in the history boys.

[Matt Koplik]

It is in the history Boys. It's.

[James Crichton]

That's the lesson.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, fascinating how that song can take on so many different meanings, because in context of Pal Joey, it's more sexual than it is love.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, it's. Vera is not a very lovey dovey person. She's pretty ice cold. And when she's thinking about Joey, it's more like she's not being like, I'm in love. She's like. She's like, wow, like, sex is fun again. And then it kind of took on a more romantic atmosphere with jazz standards and whatnot. And has a very romantic context in love, Valor, compassion. Because it ends act two with the dancing. And we have the new couple of Buzz and James John, much nicer brother.

[James Crichton]

And they also make allusions to Sondheim with A Weekend in the country and like they're waltzing, like, with the dim lights. Like, I feel like all of it is a beautiful homage to so many different.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, there's so many things, so many things in there. The third thing with history Boys, it's interesting that Bewitched is used as sort of like a longing, unrequited love. So how one song can take on different facets is great. Regarding this being a definitive production.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So, James, when we went to go see this, I told you what the library informed me when I made the reservation about the viewing of this. Which was. What was the response?

[James Crichton]

Which was that we are not allowed to rewind.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[James Crichton]

Or we are not allowed to fast forward and we are not allowed to restart it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, basically. So the way that Lincoln center library works with their videos. Tuft. Tuft, yes. Theater of Film and.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, I think it's Theater of Film and Television Archive.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, yes, yes, it is. You know, you get a DVD for each act of whatever is you're watching. And you. They try to limit you to three hours because, you know, if it's busy, they need to have turnover. But like, I've never been there when it's been really busy. We were there, it was pretty dead. And if we were not watching what we were watching, we probably could have been there for like seven hours and no one would have said boo. And I've like, I've done rewind and I've like repeated disc before. I've. I've spent a solid like five hours before on a two hour piece. So the fact that we could only watch it straight through, no repeating, no whatever, was very interesting. Do you know why that is for this piece in particular?

[James Crichton]

I feel like you were starting to say it, but I want you to tell me the real, real reason.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm going to give you the real, real.

[James Crichton]

Give me the real, real reason.

[Matt Koplik]

Do you remember.

[James Crichton]

Ooh.

[Matt Koplik]

There was a law suit from the director, choreographer of urinetown on two different regional productions of urinetown around like 2006, 2007. Do you recall?

[James Crichton]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

There became a major. So there is now We've had a major step forward with copywriting of staging in theater, because for the longest time, there really wasn't, like, there were estates that could control certain things. And choreography was always easier to control than. Other than, like, direction. But it's why, like, Jerome Robbins is. Estate has, like, all the control of west side Story's original choreography. Michael Bennett with Chorus Line. That's not the case with a lot of stuff.

[James Crichton]

Right. But is it the same thing that, like, when you license a show, for instance, like, it has to say, like, original choreography by Agnes DeMille or, like, some.

[Matt Koplik]

Sometimes. And I'm not. It's. But what happened was there was a production, a major regional production of Love, Valor, Compassion. That was to the detail.

[James Crichton]

No, the original production.

[Matt Koplik]

Everything. Things that are not in the script. Like, there's. There is no mention of Gregory's dancing in the script. That was something that Joe Mantello added because he thought it was very important to show Gregory's artistic process. What? Like. Because there's a lot of describing people like, Gregory was in the studio doing this while we were doing that. And the way that the set is designed, there's a scrim at the back that you don't realize is a scrim until, I think, the end of act one, when you see Gregory dancing behind it. That's him in the studio.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And I'm. I. Mantello tried to sue, and I don't think he could because he didn't have, like, grounds at the time. But what he was able to do, because how it happened was the dude went to Lincoln center library and just, like, watched it nine times and wrote it all down. So I don't know if there is a limit in how many times you can watch this production. I'm sure, like, at six months, we could go again. They usually. They used to say, like, you're one and done. I think they might have been leaning on that. But you can't sit there and, like, rewind. Yeah. Like, you're watching it and, you know, whatever notes you take that day or the notes you take, and that's it. And I think I'm convinced that's the reason why that video has that specific restriction.

[James Crichton]

That's wild.

[Matt Koplik]

Isn't it Wild.

[James Crichton]

I know. But it's kind of sad now, too, though, because there's so many things. It's not sad because, like, I like. Of course I like to watch them, but, like, you know, there's so many things that are online.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

Just on YouTube now.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, that restriction was put into place, you know, obviously before bootleg culture came about. And also, bootlegs don't capture everything.

[James Crichton]

No, even.

[Matt Koplik]

Even the best zoom.

[James Crichton]

So, like. Yeah, you can't get a sense of the picture.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, There are maybe 10 bootlegs out there that I would consider pretty perfect in the sense that they make sure to capture what's most important. And it's not too, like, Scuttlebutty, but they tend. Those tend to come from people involved with the show. Like, there's a bootleg of the Los Angeles production of Ruthless, and it's towards the end of the run. It might even be the final performance. And it's. I'm almost positive it's the director or it's somebody involved on the production team who filmed it, because all the zooms that happen happen at the exact right moments. There's no, like, I get over here and, like, they know exactly where to go.

[James Crichton]

Oh, interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

They know exactly where to go.

[James Crichton]

I just remember, like, I feel like I remember, but again, I feel like a dinosaur when I, like, I remember, but, like, I literally remember YouTube becoming, like, a thing in, like, 2005.

[Matt Koplik]

Shoes. Oh, my God. Shoes.

[James Crichton]

That.

[Matt Koplik]

And.

[James Crichton]

But I remember that every day there'd be a new bootleg of Wicked.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it was. Yeah. Also just, like, a lot of audio. I remember.

[James Crichton]

Oh, yeah. That's more what I mean.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. But, yeah, that's what was going on with Love a Lot.

[James Crichton]

That is so interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

Because it's really. It is. It is. So not often.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. The thing you were talking about this earlier with, like, the friendship camaraderie. What I like about this play in terms of. And, you know, yes, there was a lot of homage and references to stuff, but, like, the banter of queer friendship. And I know, you know, we don't like to, you know, put an umbrella over each demographic, but I do think that this is true of the queer community. There is a very specific energy and. And vocabulary to intimate queer friendships. And it's a certain kind of banter referencing of things like inside jokes that are, like, references to movie quotes or theater quotes or whatever. And then there's also, like, a bit of a jest to things, like, almost slightly like a neg. That makes sense. The way I describe it is like, my love language with my friends. And they all know this now is bitch, I'm a bitch. But only if I really consider you a friend, because there is the understanding of that safety net that no matter what I say, you know that I love you. And if I meant any of This. I wouldn't say it. I'm saying it not because it's true, but because it's funny. Yeah, it's the. It's for the sake of the punchline. And we see this in angels. We see this in love, valor, compassion. Like, all that stuff at the dinner table when they're with each other and saying, like, you know, bitchy things to each other about the parent, about, oh, you have no hair, and, oh, yeah, oh, you're not the size you say you are. You were pushing 40. One chorus line was still on Broadway. Things like that. Like, that's. Those are bitchy things to say, but they are with the level of trust of, you know that I love you, and if I actually meant this, we wouldn't be friends.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm saying this because I know you well enough to know what your, like, sore spots are, and I'm gonna jab you just enough. It's like. It's the reading challenge of Drag Race, you know? It's like I'm taking a kernel of truth. I'm expanding it for comedic sake. And I know it's gonna make you laugh because, you know I love you.

[James Crichton]

Well, the other thing, too, that I guess to dip back to the old conversation for two seconds is with Buzz.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

I think I am actually kind of like him in the sense that so many of my musical theater puns or references go unnoticed 1,000%. I've had so, like, when that happens and he just lets it sit for a second, I'm always, like, I said.

[Matt Koplik]

To everyone in my life, I have pop culture Tourette's. You do not have to acknowledge what I'm referencing.

[James Crichton]

But just let it happen.

[Matt Koplik]

Let it happen.

[James Crichton]

Right. You know, don't ask who.

[Matt Koplik]

Don't ask who. Don't ask what? Don't ask where.

[James Crichton]

Just let it be.

[Matt Koplik]

Let it be. Well, no, you know, everyone goes to the Beatles. I go to Let There Be. Fierce, Let there be. Let there be winter.

[James Crichton]

Water, water, rain, rain.

[Matt Koplik]

What's the first one? He says? Let there be Morning, Let there be.

[James Crichton]

Oh, wait, we're singing different songs.

[Matt Koplik]

What are you singing?

[James Crichton]

Oh, I'm doing Children of Eden. I went to once on this island.

[Matt Koplik]

Gross. I go to the show that's never been on Broadway. You've been. You went to the show that's been on Broadway twice. You mainstream fucking God.

[James Crichton]

Sing it again from Children.

[Matt Koplik]

Let there be. Let there be Morning, Let there be Evening, day, Let there be. And then there's the stupid children's course. They sound beautiful. I just hate Children Perry. Yeah, I don't.

[James Crichton]

I. I don't know Children of Eden as much as well as I should.

[Matt Koplik]

There is. Half of that score is gorgeous.

[James Crichton]

I really like much of the music.

[Matt Koplik]

It's also Stephen Schwartz, so some of dem lyrics are choice.

[James Crichton]

Well, it's interesting, too. Now we're just.

[Matt Koplik]

Who cares? Now we're just living love albums.

[James Crichton]

Now we're just living. Right. So maybe that is sort of the best way that we could pay homage to the play.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Talk it to the mic whore.

[James Crichton]

Oh, am I hiding from it?

[Matt Koplik]

No, no, you're good. You're good, you're good.

[James Crichton]

What I was just going to say about that show is, Stephen Schwartz is, I watched the most incredible interview the other day with him and Janine Tesori, and. Okay, Janine Tesori was talking to him and she was like. She said something that blew my mind open about him, and I was like, whoa. She was like, so many of us composers.

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[James Crichton]

Who write are often not acknowledged or meet the moment that we're in. So many of us write something and then years later, people are like, whoa, that was brilliant. She was like, you've struck lightning in a bottle so many times, and you've always known how to meet the moment as it's happening. She was like, you did it with Godspell, you did it with Pippin. You did it with Wicked. She was like, you constantly know how to, like, just match the moment. And I was like, wait, he does. Because, like, if you think about, like, Sondheim, think about early Janine to story with, like, Violet. And they're not like, ghetto Schwartz.

[Matt Koplik]

I wouldn't say he always meets the moment. He has three very big moments where he. Where that absolutely happens, and that is Godsel, Pippin, Wicked. What we are not acknowledging between Pippin and Wicked is the, you know, 30 years in between where he did a lot of great stuff, but not stuff that well.

[James Crichton]

It also turned to film, I guess.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. But we also have working. He did the lyrics for Rags, and I would argue the lyrics for Rags are not great. I just love Rags. But Strauss's music is incredible.

[James Crichton]

Oh, my God. It's an amazing show.

[Matt Koplik]

Is it an amazing show or is it amazing music?

[James Crichton]

James, to be honest, I don't know how to answer it.

[Matt Koplik]

There you go.

[James Crichton]

Because I did a production of it when I was a child at a community theater, and I. It is one of my favorite shows I've ever been in. To this day. If somebody was like, what do you. What are some of your favorite shows? You've ever been in rags. Fiorello.

[Matt Koplik]

No. Not even Tom Bosley would say that he has a soft spot for Fiorello.

[James Crichton]

I loved it. These are the shows that I diminished.

[Matt Koplik]

You're the one. You're the one person who loves Fiorello.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, I love Fiorello.

[Matt Koplik]

Don Draper famously didn't love Fiorello in Mad Men. Yeah. Mad Weiner made it a point.

[James Crichton]

Did he prefer to see Sound of Music?

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know. That year. Who knows what the hell that Toxic man wanted? But Matt Weiner made it a point to say on television. Fiorello. What?

[James Crichton]

I love Fiorello. I'm dead serious. But, yeah, this is what I mean, though, about my taste.

[Matt Koplik]

But it led me to.

[James Crichton]

It led me to all of this, honestly, like, because I feel like we're nearing, like, James, like, wrap it up.

[Matt Koplik]

No, keep going, Keep going.

[James Crichton]

No, but, like, all of it in some way, did lead me to Love, Valor, Compassion. And it's interesting that I found this play so much later than so many other things.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

Because in a way, it does feel like all of those things that have been bustling around in my head were acknowledged in the play.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

Like, I had a greater appreciation for this play because of the life that I've lived up until seeing it.

[Matt Koplik]

Love, Valor, Compassion is a very solid argument for write what you know, because it does feel like a lot of the things written in. There are conversations McNally had with friends.

[James Crichton]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

McNally, obviously, of course, had a country home and friends with country homes and all that stuff. And, I mean, there's so much optimism in so many of his plays, even when there's anger to it. It's why, like, his, like, big comedies, I don't think are as successful, because I just don't think he's. Maybe he is, but his writing just isn't quite sinister enough for satirical comedies to really bite. Like, he could never write for Veep. He could write for West Wing. I think that's the way I would describe it with him. Even something like Frankie and Johnny. It's all about opening yourself up to love and not allowing passion to pass you by. And even all the cynicism of Love, Valor, Compassion, it's. I mean, it's cynicism in the sense of, like, smart people seeing hypocrisy, but not. None of it felt weighty to me, if that makes sense. They're watching it with you today. I found that the third act, which is definitely meant to sort of be like the serious act, was my least favorite. It Felt a little try hard to me. There were a lot of like big monologue moments. John Glover gets his big monologue moment with his twin brother, which I remember saying to you during Acts 1 and 2. I was like, there's a, there's this little turntable at the front of the stage. They haven't used it yet. And then they use three for like the one moment. I was like, that thing could have been on wheels, it would have been fine. You did not need what they called the lazy Susan Blake. John Glover gets his moment, then Nathan Lane gets his moment. Steven Spinella gets like three moments. There's one in the canoe with him and John Benjamin Hickey just like, oh, everyone like gets their beat. And the ending, I know, I'm sure it was very moving to a lot of people. It didn't do it for me. Especially as we watch more works kind of like satirize these kind of earnest moments. There's the 30 Rock episode where Kelsey Grammer does a one man version of Abe Lincoln that he's improvising on the spot to distract everyone while like Jenna and Kenneth do a cover up. And then they show you the end of the play at the end of the show and as he gets shot in the head and then he like, he gets shot and he dies. And he stands up and he goes, I'm a ghost now. He's like, can I have one last thing to say as a ghost? And the ending of the play where they each describe how they go. All I could think of was I'm a ghost now. And. And maybe that's because shows like 30 Rock have ruined storytelling, but beats like that for me. But also, I'm not sure, it just kind of felt a little out of left field. Not super earned. The play's not about they death is mentioned in the sense that Buzz and James, who both have aids, are on borrowed time. Like they are not doing great. James is super not doing great. And you know, by 1994, 1995, even if it wasn't an immediate death sentence, it was more likely that you would die in some point. But the play was not about death, it was about relationships. And so for the end of it to then turn into the Six Feet under series finale, where it's like they each describe when they go and how they go. I was like, where? Why are we discussing this? It just, it didn't, it didn't resonate with me. And maybe that's all it is.

[James Crichton]

No, I actually wanted to just push back on it for two seconds. Please do say that. Like. Like I was thinking that too. But then it was interesting because I took. Oh, I took a note on my phone during it that there's the sense I took at one point. There's a sense that everybody's on a precipice of something. And so, like, Perry and Arthur constantly checking in to see are we okay? Gregory and Bobby obviously having their own moment AIDS the social unrest, turning the tv, turning CNN on and watching people be brutalized. Like, there's always this sense of, like, are we good? Like, where are we at? What's the thing that's keeping us together? How are we tethered? And so I think that, like, in finding out sort of like what happens post the play, it was a bite sized way for them to be. Like, we didn't actually make it as a couple. Yeah. Like, we got rid of it. So, like, in a way, because it's not the end and end of the play, it's not the last thing we see. I feel like it's not. As I'm a ghost. As I'm a ghost.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

Like it. They say it and then we. Again, we bleed out of that sort of more abstract sense back into reality. So in that sense, I, like, understood it. But I get what you mean about.

[Matt Koplik]

I think I would have liked it more. I liked the Bobby Gregory moment because, you know, it starts with Perry saying how he's gonna go, and then Arthur says how he goes. And then I think Buzz is after him. Ramon. And then it's Bobby Gregory. I'm almost positive I remember that because I'm stupid. My brain is weird. I'm also entirely possibly making this up. I know that it's Perry Arthur first, because the Perry thing, it threw me. And Perry's like, oh. Also, depending on when this play takes place, we could be in the midst of Perry's death.

[James Crichton]

Okracy says 27.

[Matt Koplik]

It's 27 years, four months, eight days, something like that. Or eight months, four days, like that. So if this is taking place on labor day weekend of 1994 or 1995, either Perry has now been dead for six months or he's going to die in about like, three months from now of when we record this. So sorry, Perry. Rip. But whoa, craziness, right? I thought about that when I was like, when is 27 years from this moment?

[James Crichton]

Whoa.

[Matt Koplik]

RIP. Perry and then Arthur three years after that, and Buzz is already dead. Ramon is dead, right?

[James Crichton]

It's a plane.

[Matt Koplik]

Ramon was in a plane. So again, it's one of those Things where you were given a few details.

[James Crichton]

But Ramon, like, was the pilot drunk?

[Matt Koplik]

What I got from it was that Ramon eventually would have his own company, like Gregory, and possibly even be successful like Gregory, and had the means to fly, like, in a private situation. Oh, that is what. Like, the company was already where they needed to be. He had to get there, like, in seven hours.

[James Crichton]

He, like, push.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And. Yes. And got. Yeah. Pushed to get a private plane or something. Like, just him and the one pilot. That is what I got out of it.

[James Crichton]

That would make more sense, but.

[Matt Koplik]

But it's very vague, and there's not a lot of details. But what I bring up the Bobby Gregory thing, because it's less about how Bobby goes, but rather he's like, I don't remember who I'm with or how it happens. And Gregory says, you're not with me. And their conversation is about how they are no longer together and what happens after the fact. Basically, Bobby leaves Gregory for another man, and Gregory is never, never with anybody ever again.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And I appreciated that because I feel like there's always this kind of stigma on infidelity in dramatic works where it's either, like, it happens and it's the thing that breaks you up forever and it's terrible, or it's the thing that you work through and you're. And you're stronger. And it's like, true love perseveres. And this play kind of talks about how neither is really true. You can work through it and persevere, and you can get to a great place, but it's never the same. Like Arthur and Perry, like, they still love each other. It's wonderful. It's great. They're never in doubt, but it's. Something has shifted. Or it's a Gregory Bobby situation where you do love each other, but the infidelity does come from the root of another issue. And that issue ends up being the May December dynamic, which, you know, they love each other, but ultimately, Gregory was too old for Bobby, and it took Bobby five years, six years to realize it. Not. Not that age differences are a reason to break up, but it was the reason why Bobby broke up.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so I appreciate that McNally does that with both couples of, like, we have two couples with infidelity. One makes it, one doesn't. But even the one that makes it, like, they're not, you know, idealistic. They're not, like, better than ever.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Which I. Again, I appreciate that. I appreciate it because I think that is actually one of the more realistic elements of relationships in the play and something that I feel like we as queer people kind of always wrestle with and have to acknowledge. There is not to toot my own horn, but in my writing, in my play, there is a conversation of sort of how we all. I have a character who does one of the addresses to the audience. And one of the themes of my play is like, how we use pop culture as a way to make sense of our lives in the world. Because it's. They're all just other people's stories told in a very compact amount of time. And it's like, okay, like, how can I relate what's going on with me to this? Like, just to make it make sense. And the characters, you know, in a monologue basically says, like, if you're a gay man and you want to have a survival movie guide, it's like, pay attention to the horror franchise. Like all horror movies, they're. They're the way to get by. He's like, because everybody in this world is just trying to live, gay man. We have to know how to survive. He's like, so learn when the call is coming from inside the house, Always know that the person trying to get you is going to come back for a second scare. Know that, you know, never take anything to face value. Things like that. Yeah. And part of that also comes with just like, understand, surviving also just is understanding, like the. The love you have for someone, the compassion you have with someone and the valor they're willing to fight for what is right for you, what you need, what you want, and also the courage to know when. To walk away when it's not going to be good for you. And a lot of people don't do that. And I really don't want to generalize, but it is a lot of straight.

[James Crichton]

People.

[Matt Koplik]

Because their lives fit the norm a lot easier than ours does. And so because we're always sort of an outlier, we've had to do a lot of extra work to know what it takes for us to continue standing.

[James Crichton]

Yeah. And it was so interesting too, that, like, the two that ended up having the affair are the two who were in a house full of people who are already othered. They were the two who were even more othered, if you know any.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Bobby Blind and then Ramon, who is the one person of color. Yeah.

[James Crichton]

It's like those are the two people that find each other in this house. So in a way, it actually was kind of.

[Matt Koplik]

They're also the youngest in the house by far.

[James Crichton]

Right. There's so many things about it that make it feel kind of like, whoa. But I agree with you. And sort of the treatment of how it all wraps itself up or figures itself out is very interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

There's always talk about with Bobby, played by Justin Kirk in this production, who's fabulous. He's famous. There's also so many angel connections to this because you have Joe Mantello, the original Lewis, directing it. Original Prior. Steven Spinella is in it. Justin Kirk, who plays Prior in the HBO miniseries. In it. Nathan Lane, who then goes on to play Rory Cohn in the revival. Yeah, just so many. So, so, so, so, so many. And then. And then Joe Mantello and John Benjamin Hickey do Normal Heart together many years later. It's all incestuous, baby. I love it.

[James Crichton]

But, yeah, I mean, but they're all so good.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but it's a wonderful.

[James Crichton]

They're so good.

[Matt Koplik]

Spinella, for some reason, didn't transfer to Broadway with it. Anthony Held played Perry. I'm not entirely sure why, but also, Nathan Lane only did the Broadway run for, like, the first two months. I'll mention this as well when we talk about Tony's for a quick second. But with the Bobby Ramon thing, first of all, Ramon is very attractive. And. And one of the things that the play does and the production does in it's similar to the second season of White Lotus, and that it is very appreciative of the male form because a lot of these men have beautiful bodies. And I don't think it's objectifying to say that is. It is. Part of the point of it is that they have these lovely bodies. And it's about enjoying the skin you're in and, like, loving it. Especially at the end when everyone does go skinny dipping in the end Buzz as well, and Perry as well, everyone goes naked into the lake and enjoys themselves. But. And there's also the kind of the dynamic between youth and age. You know, everyone's objectifying ramon because he's 22 and attractive and they're all getting into their 40s and bodies are starting to fall apart and Bobby's the only other, like, young person in the house. There's a lot of talk about how good Bobby is. Like, he's such a nice person. He's just a sweet person, such a caring person. And I think he is. But I also. Part of me wonders, you know, there's that sequence in the first act when they all get together for Memorial Day weekend. And every time they're out of the house, Bobby, like, goes outside for a few minutes and does something that nobody knows what it is. And we see it. It's basically him, like, praying. Praying and, like, being appreciative to God of everything that he has. He has a boyfriend who loves him. He's got a good life. They're their country home with the friends that they entertain. But Bobby's also 25, probably. Maybe 24.

[James Crichton]

I think he's 24? Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, 20. 24. 25. No older than 24. Sorry. No, sorry. No older than 25, but, you know, probably around that age. 20. Between 23 and 25. And Buzz probably 38, 39. And that's the next youngest because then we have Perry and Arthur, who are in their early 40s. Gregory, who's his. Who's in his early 40s, John, who's in his early 40s. And Bobby likes them all. He gets along with all of them. But Bobby's also living an early 40s, mid-40s life in his early 20s.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And part of me also wonders if, like, that appreciation is sort of like. Did you ever watch Crazy Ex Girlfriend?

[James Crichton]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

God damn it. I'm. I'm batting zero with you. No, the first. The first episode of Crazy Ex Girlfriend is basically just Rachel Bloom's character. You know, she's obviously very depressed and whatever, and she's about to be very successful. May partner at her law firm, whatever. And she, like, has a panic attack when they offer her the position. And she runs outside and she just starts saying to herself, this is what happy feels like. This is what happy feels like. This is what happy feels like. And I don't think it's as, like, dark as that, but part of me does wonder when Bobby does those, like, praying moments to God of the house and all that. If he's like, this is what happy feels.

[James Crichton]

Want this.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I should be appreciative. I have a. I love the man I'm with. He loves me. He's so good to me. He's successful. He has this house we get to come up to that's, you know, wonderful. And we have friends who are smart and successful who will drive me out to the house. And, you know, it's all. It's. This is a good life, isn't it? Yeah, because that's sort of the thing about cheating is, like, it doesn't come from nowhere. There's. There's something that. That is. That happens with it. And if you address that, what. What made the cheating happen, you can work on it and fix it. And that's what ultimately we are led to believe Arthur and Perry did is that they. They figured out why it was.

[James Crichton]

And Arthur, very early in the play, says to Bobby, no one's that hot.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Not. It's not worth it.

[James Crichton]

Not worth it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And he. And Bobby finds out from Arthur that he did. That Arthur did cheat on Perry and asks like, well, how did Perry find out? He's like, well, I told him. And one wonders if that's, like, what got Bobby to do it. Because Bobby tells Gregory a month and a half later, it happens when they're all back together and kind of lies to Gregory as well about the circumstances. Takes him that long to tell him. And then he says, well, have you done it again? He says, no. Unclear if that's even true. And he's like, well, have you wanted to? And he says, no, I love you. What? We saw him literally go out to the rap and make plans. Yeah. To the dock and make plans with.

[James Crichton]

Ramon to have sex again later that night.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Which the. And. And he would have done it if. If it weren't for the phone call that his sister died.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And he has to leave for Texas that night.

[James Crichton]

Paris, Texas.

[Matt Koplik]

Paris. Paris, Texas.

[James Crichton]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. True. I mean, true to all. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

We're very insightful people, James.

[James Crichton]

Well, this. Yeah. I mean, I was thinking about all these things, but the other thing is, like, with Bobby, like, I feel like he was also really disappointed when, like, he really didn't want any extra help from anybody. And I feel like that there's a level of it that also may just come from he has to trust and use his imagination so much.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

And it's also heightened around him that I think maybe in the sense that he's missing one avenue of passion or pleasure, maybe he wanted to seek it elsewhere. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, when he falls that first time right on the rake, and everyone comes to help him, he literally says, no one helped me except for Gregory.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And I don't. It made me wonder sort of like, what. And then, like, Gregory tries to be, like, heroic and lift him up and pop. He's like, what are you doing?

[James Crichton]

I thought we were headed down another bad path, though. And he collapsed and wasn't able to hold him. I was like, oh, no, I hope not everybody is ill. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

No, that. They just forgot.

[James Crichton]

It was just.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And what I understand is, you know, first of all, you know, as we get. As the years have gone on, we've learned how better to take care of ourselves. So dancers lives can go on a lot longer.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But I also kind of get the impression that he's someone who, like, when he danced, he danced hard.

[James Crichton]

Hard.

[Matt Koplik]

So he was. We're talking about, like, 25 years of, like, hard dancing that is now catching up with him. And he's not slowing himself down, even though he should, which is why his.

[James Crichton]

Body'S, like, giving up.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. He's like, call. It's like, you gotta call it quits now. Which he does in the end. But, yeah, it's. That relationship dynamic is very interesting. And then also Gregory, you know, he martyrs Bobby so much. You know, you're my angel. Calls him his angel. You're so good. You're my savior. I love you. Like, I'm so. Says to me. He's like, I know this is a terrible thing to say as you're about to go back to Texas to bury your decapitated sister, but I'm so happy right now. And it's like. And also, that's another toxic trait of, like, wrapping up so much of your happiness and joy in life in your partner. Because they're just another person in this world, baby. And they're just as broken as the rest of us. You should have joy with them, but they should not be your. Yeah. They are not your blanket. They are. They are a pillow. They give you support. They are not your protection.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

That. Oh, fuck, I love that. Oh, my God. I should. I need to write that down on the pillow, right? Somebody write that down. That's going on my play. A partner is a pillow, not a blanket. They're your support, not your protection.

[James Crichton]

Not your protection.

[Matt Koplik]

Mother flying fucker.

[James Crichton]

The blanket is protection.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And the pillow is support.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, girl. And sometimes if you're like me and you have a bad neck and back, you don't even sleep with a pillow.

[Matt Koplik]

What do you sleep with?

[James Crichton]

Nothing.

[Matt Koplik]

You know what comes between James Fitzbed?

[James Crichton]

Nothing. No, but, like, isn't that interesting, too, to your analogy?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

Because, like, a partner is sometimes, you know, there sometimes not by the blanket I always have on.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know. I think you're headed down a road of hurt, pain and hurt. A pert.

[James Crichton]

Per. God help.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I'm. I'm speaking purely symbolically, not realistically.

[James Crichton]

I hope. I hope. Yeah, whatever. That. I hope.

[Matt Koplik]

No, so. So you. So you just sleep? Well, you can also view the mattress then as your support.

[James Crichton]

The mattress is the support.

[Matt Koplik]

I just don't like referring to people as mattresses.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

What? Golden girls. Yeah. Human mattress.

[James Crichton]

Right. I was like, what is that from?

[Matt Koplik]

It's. This is love, valor, compassion. The. The reference upon reference. Upon reference.

[James Crichton]

And be. Arthur would have liked that.

[Matt Koplik]

Bea Arthur would have loved it.

[James Crichton]

And I'm sure she. She was alive for the.

[Matt Koplik]

They were all still alive for this. Estelle Getty was the first to go, and I think she died in 99, 2000.

[James Crichton]

Oh, yeah. So B would have maybe even saw the play.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe she did.

[James Crichton]

Who knows?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I know the exact order. It was Estelle B. Rue. Betty, really, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow caller. You're the top. You're a cool dollar.

[James Crichton]

You're the nimble. Wait. But also, speaking of the Tonys, though, yes, Nathan did not win.

[Matt Koplik]

Nathan was not nominated because he was.

[James Crichton]

Only with it for two months.

[Matt Koplik]

So that's what I'm thinking. So, okay, there. There are two things about the awards of Lavala Compassion that are interesting also. So I also wanted to draw this. This article up from the New York Times that I found the play when it transferred to Broadway. So it transferred January. Yeah, I think previews were January of 95 and then officially opened in early February. So like two, three weeks of previews and then they recouped in April after only six weeks. So they were. Maybe I have this wrong. They.

[James Crichton]

That's wild.

[Matt Koplik]

They either they started maybe. Maybe they started previews end of January, open mid February, something like that. But yeah, six weeks of Broadway performances and they recouped. And this was because of.

[James Crichton]

Was this the Walter Kerr.

[Matt Koplik]

Walter Kerr Theater? Yep. Speaking of Angels, again, for Angels, America premiered. It had a $750,000 capitalization, which, you know, even for that time, relatively small. I think Angels cost like four times that amount when it was produced on Broadway. But it's, you know, smallish cast, unit, set. And there was a deal made with a Broadway alliance that allowed it to cost so little and run on such a small amount of money to recoup the alliance. So under the alliance, which was begun in 1990 to save plays from ever rising costs and ticket prices, virtually everyone involved in a show agrees to caps on fees, salaries, rent and ticket prices. It applies only to some Broadway houses, mostly those without orchestra pits or otherwise unsuitable for musicals. And also it does not apply to Off Broadway, which uses mostly non union labor. There have been five shows up until with including Love, Valor, Compassion. No, five shows before Love, Valor, Compassion that adhered to the alliance. The Speed of Darkness, Our Country's Good Crazy. He calls me mixed emotions on any given day. All of which were financial flops and was making the Broadway League reconsider the alliance until Love, Valor, Compassion, which was able to recoup because of that. So basically everyone in the company made the same salary or made a lot less. There was. There was a cap, so no one could make it over a certain amount.

[James Crichton]

Favorite nations.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I guess it was a Favorite nations contract. I don't know if maybe they changed the name to that. But also Terence McNally, Joe Matello, all the designers. But that also applied to the rent. Drew Jamison could not put a rising cost on the rent for them. But not just them, but, like, I guess, any plays that were going into the Walter Kerr.

[James Crichton]

Wow.

[Matt Koplik]

And then ticket pricing, all this stuff. So everything was done cost effective as. As cost effective as possible, and it allowed them to recoup in a month and a half.

[James Crichton]

So this was before Manhattan Theater Club purchased the Samuel Friedman Theater.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[James Crichton]

As their, like, home base.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Manhattan Theater Club did not have a.

[James Crichton]

Broadway house because this was the home of Proof. This was the home. Walter Kerr.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Walter Kerr is a commercial Broadway house. Yeah. At that point, the only two nonprofit theater companies that had a Broadway residency was Lincoln Center Theater had the Beaumont.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And Roundabout had the Criterion. No, the Criterion, whatever it's called, Place that closed up shop in 99 after little me. They bought the. They bought. They bought Studio 54.

[James Crichton]

Cabaret.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. When Cabaret transferred, they bought Studio 54 because they refurbished it to be like the Henry Miller Theater. And then they bought the Henry Miller Theater after you're in town.

[James Crichton]

Left, Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

And then it was.

[Matt Koplik]

And now it's what? Now it's the Sondheim, and it's what it is. But yes, Manhattan Theater Club did not have a Broadway house at that point.

[James Crichton]

Like 97 or so. I think it came.

[Matt Koplik]

I think they bought it later than that. Yeah, they bought it.

[James Crichton]

Oh, yeah. That has to be later because Lynn Meadow put up Proof at. Well, not.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

Manhattan Theater Club.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Proof was off Broadway and then transferred.

[James Crichton]

To the Walter Kirk.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Crichton]

So, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then I think Doubt was also a Manhattan theater club. Same theater, the stage that Love Valor was at. I'm almost positive. Don't quote me on that. Well, no, we'll know in the actual Doubt episode when we do Doubt. But the other thing with Love Valor, Compassion, with the. With the awards. So we have the Tonys, which we'll get to in a second. Love Valor, Compassion was considered the front runner for the Pulitzer that year. A lot of it was the narrative of Terrence, of, like, he's back. He's, you know, big career Revival. Best play he's ever written. It's of the moment. It's a play of the moment. He's, you know, captured the zeitgeist. It's not to, like, sound like a Perry, but it's a. It's a. It's an AIDS play. And, you know, that was getting a lot of awards these days. And then it didn't win. It wasn't even one of the finalists that year. It. The three finalists were the Cryptogram by David Mamet, Seven Guitars by August Wilson, and the Young Man From Atlanta by Horton Foote. Now, I know Mamet's a ship, but this was like, he was still in peak, mammoth form. So it's not out of the ordinary that he would be a finalist. Wilson, one of the greatest playwrights of all time, and then Young man from Atlanta by Horton Foote, also one of our great playwrights.

[James Crichton]

So what won the Pulitzer?

[Matt Koplik]

Young man from Atlanta. But. But the article talks about how, like, a lot of people in the community were very baffled and thought it might have. There might have been some agenda behind it. And the committee was, you know, a pretty diverse group for the Pulitzer. Critics, playwrights, whatnot. One of them, it was Clive Barnes from the Post, Frank Rich, a couple other people. And they. They were, like, basically cornered. Like, why didn't you give to Love Our Compassion? And the Pulitzer has had issues in the past of, like, not awarding the best play for the Pulitzer. Like, who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf Famously did not get the Pulitzer. And everyone was like, that's. But they were. The community was asked, and they're like, we know. We. We. We discussed it. You know, we, we. Everyone brought up the plays that they loved that year. And, like, two people brought up Love Valley of Compassion really championed it, and the rest of us talked about it, and we all kind of realized we all liked it. None of us loved it or validated or compassioned it. But yeah, there was, like, we. We came up with five plays that we really thought were really exceptional. We narrowed it down to our three finalists, and then we picked the one we thought was the best. Like, that was all it really was to it. And I gotta say, watching it today with you and reading it, like, I get it. Like, I think this is a good play. I think it's not always good, and I don't really think it's Pulitzer worthy. You know, the moments that work best for me are the moments that are not, quote, unquote, the important moments. Like all the soapbox moments don't do it. For me, it's the intimate, personal moments that really do it for me. But that's also just my mo.

[James Crichton]

I love those moments.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Like just the Perry and Buzz kiss on the forehead moment at the beginning of the play is so much more interesting to me than Buzz's whole, like, a funny thing happened away to the farm and nothing happens, and it's not funny. I mean, Nathan sells the shit out of it, but I don't love that speech. The other thing with the Tonys, Nathan was petitioned for lead, which I think was a mistake.

[James Crichton]

Oh.

[Matt Koplik]

First of all, this isn't. This is an ensemble play if ever there was one. And Buzz is definitely the showiest role, but he's not the lead. It's not his story. It's a lot of people's story. He doesn't get. He doesn't even get the last word. He doesn't get the first word. He doesn't get the last word. But they put him in lead because I think he was the most famous one at the time. And Lion King had also come out at this point, right? Yeah. Even though I don't think, like, he was like. It wasn't like Nathan Lane in the Lion King, but, you know, he makes a joke about it at the Tony Awards that year. He co hosts the Tonys that year with Glenn Close and Gregory Hines for the year of Love, Valor, Compassion. Yeah. But he was petitioned for lead, and he left the production in, like, mid April before the nominations came out. Mario Cantone replaced him.

[James Crichton]

To do what?

[Matt Koplik]

I think to do Birdcage. I think he went off to do Birdcage. And I do think the fact that he wasn't in it anymore and that he wasn't really the lead took him.

[James Crichton]

Out of the running.

[Matt Koplik]

Took him out of the running.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So the nominees for this were. They were nominated for play and won. Nominated for director.

[James Crichton]

Did not win.

[Matt Koplik]

Did not win. So meant the big play that year, really. Love Valor Compassion was a hit. But like, the play, that was the play of the moment that season was the revival of the Heiress with Cherry Jones.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

That ran twice as long as Love, Valor, Compassion made Cherry Jones a star. And they won revival. They won actress, supporting actress and director for Gerald Gutierrez. And what's funny is I was watching the Tony ceremony, and listeners of the POD who listened to that episode will know Sarah Jessica Parker presented best director of a play to Gerald Gutierrez, who would go on to direct her two.

[James Crichton]

Years later in full.

[Matt Koplik]

Once Upon a Mattress, which was such a horrible experience for everybody. And everyone blames him for it. So I'm like, oh, that's just how life works. Though. Who would have thought two years later Sarah Jessica Parker would be headlining a production of Once Upon a Mattress directed by the very guy she gives his first tone.

[James Crichton]

Can we talk about that for three seconds?

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[James Crichton]

Okay, so I admittedly have never seen an episode of Sex and the City, but I have seen all of. And just like that.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[James Crichton]

So I know who Carrie Bradshaw is. I know the world. But I know that it didn't air. I know that it didn't air until 98. 98. Thank you. This once upon a mattress revival was 96. 7.

[Matt Koplik]

It was the winter of 97 and closed, I believe, in June of 90. No, take it back. So winter of 96 closed in spring of 97.

[James Crichton]

What am I forgetting or not knowing? Aside from Hocus Pocus of her career, what is she like? How do you headline like Sarah Jessica Parker in Once Upon a Mattress and it be so like monumental?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, first of all, she had been working since. Since like she was a kid and.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, she was.

[Matt Koplik]

And she, she, she was sort of. She started off as kind of like a. A teen, early 20s actress. So everyone was like, everyone recognized her. She was sort of like the teenage. Catherine Hahn is the best. I want to describe it, like was in Footloose. She headlined her own teen movie, Girls Just Want to have Fun. She got a major boost when she played sort of the sexy character in a Steve Martin film called La Love Story, I think is what it's called. I know she basically, she just worked in a lot of things and became sort of famous by playing major supporting roles in movies that were extremely successful and then lead roles in movies that were sort of successful.

[James Crichton]

So by that point though, Hocus Pocus was one.

[Matt Koplik]

But although that flopped First Wives, Club Mars Attacks, she had a couple other ones that she was a leader.

[James Crichton]

But by that point, it wasn't like today. It's like Sarah Jessica Parker.

[Matt Koplik]

No, she and she. She also was at that point with Matthew Broderick and they had sort of become a celebrity couple.

[James Crichton]

Well, they did how she went and she went in. Yeah. How to succeed for like she went.

[Matt Koplik]

She replaced Megan.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

She replaced Megan Mulally and then she, I think she closed out the show with John Stammer.

[James Crichton]

But at that point he was a tremendously amount more famous.

[Matt Koplik]

He was way more famous famous than she was. She was, she was decently famous. Like she was known and they got together and she got more famous by being with him. And I would say that probably also boosted his street cred a bit. It's like, you know, anyone who's famous becomes more famous when they're with someone who's famous. It's that. It's just that thing.

[James Crichton]

But it was like Sex in the.

[Matt Koplik]

City, that Sex the City was. She was considered a. A, if not a movie star, a major, major movie actress. Like, she had a career going, so her doing an HBO show was almost considered suicide. No one knew why she was doing was like, oh, are we just blowing up our career now?

[James Crichton]

Because this was at the time that HBO was still sort of.

[Matt Koplik]

HBO was not really big.

[James Crichton]

They had doing Sopranos yet not doing. It was Six Feet Under.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it was pre. All that and not. And even though it was even with.

[James Crichton]

HBO aside, movie stars weren't doing tv.

[Matt Koplik]

TV actors wanted to become movie stars. The friends actors were trying desperately become movie stars. You. You were famous and you were rich from doing tv, but you weren't like a respected movie star. And that was always sort of considered elusive for TV actors of making the jump. No one could ever do it. And if you were a movie star who then went into tv, that was considered a major step.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, I see.

[Matt Koplik]

It's very different now.

[James Crichton]

So different now.

[Matt Koplik]

So different now it's. Now it's like, oh, yeah, you're a movie star, but like, have you done a limited series yet for hbo? Like, that'll tell us that you're good, right? Yeah. No. Sex and the City made her an institution, and now she's bigger than he is. But, yeah, this is to say, yes. Joe Mantello lost the Tony. Gerald Gutierrez, presented by Sarah Jessica Parker, little of which, you know, a year and a half later, the hell she would go through with him. Three actors for Lovella Compassion were nominated for featured actor.

[James Crichton]

John Glover.

[Matt Koplik]

John Glover. Who won?

[James Crichton]

Who won, Right. Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Stephen Bogardus nominated.

[James Crichton]

Makes sense.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

And then was Justin Kirk nominated?

[Matt Koplik]

No, Anthony Held was nominated. Who? He played Perry replacing Steven Spinella. And honestly, I think the four roles that are the most meaty are Glovers playing the twins.

[James Crichton]

Definitely Buzz.

[Matt Koplik]

And Nathan was nominated for the Drama desk, and I think even one. Yeah. And then. So him not being nominated was considered a big shock. But yes, Buzz, the twins, Perry, and then probably Gregory just. Just because of the opportunities Gregory has for the physicality of Bobby. I think Bobby is what you bring to it. I think Justin, on the page, I find Bobby to be kind of a wet blanket. I think what Justin Kirk brings to it.

[James Crichton]

He's fabulous.

[Matt Koplik]

He is. And obviously there's material there for him to work with. But I think a role like Buzz is almost actor proof. You can. Having a great actor doing it makes a world of difference. But Buzz is actor proof. Perry, you run the risk with a bad actor, a bad direction of just being like, oh, God, this asshole again. But he's got good lines. And then with the twins, it's just the very fact that you're playing a dual role, and that's very impressive. Even like, I don't know, even Ramon or Arthur, there's. With good actors, as we. We saw, you can have a lot of great stuff there. But it is up to the actor and director to make that pass path.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Whereas other roles, it's sort of like just. I hate to bring it up again. There was a Tony winning performance in the last handful of years who won with a big number. And the way I described it was that number is designed to stop the show. It was staged to stop the show. All the actor has to do is ride the train. That performer rode the train well, but that's all you have to do. You just ride the train. And that's kind of like the Buzz and Quinn's role in this play, it's like, just try the train and you're golden. Everyone else, it's like the material is there. You kind of have to step up to the plate, though.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, I see that. I feel like I remember Mary Louise Parker talking about that with Angels in America when she won her Emmy speech or something. Was like, all of us are just kind of like Tony Kushner and Michael Nichols. Mike Nichols are brilliant. We're just kind of like, thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, she talked about that. In the World Spins Forward book.

[James Crichton]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

It's like, foolproof. She was like, Harper is just brilliant.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I think. Was it her who was talking about that monologue? It might have. One of the actresses who played Harper at one point, whether it was Mary Louise or Cynthia Nixon or. I know Deborah Messing did Perestroika at nyu, right. They taught. One of them talked about that monologue, and they were like. Because I think it was like. Or maybe it might have been so the knife. Like. Yeah. Might have even been Zoe Kazan, one of them. Because there was talk about, like, a multitude of them of, like, how hard it was to crack that monologue. And one of them is like, I found that monologue incredibly easy just because it was so brilliant. I didn't have to do Jack. Like, it wasn't about me. I just. Harper is an insightful, brilliant mind. Messed up and no finding clarity for the first time. But like, that is where that is all it is. Just sitting there and just doing it. And for a lot of those actresses, it was difficult. Like, Marcia K. Hardin talked about how, like, she was hiding behind her wig for so long. She wanted that, like, stupid prairie on the Farm. Farm on the Prairie wig. And George Seawolf had to, like, wrestle it out of her hands. And he's like, stop hiding and just do it.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And that is kind of. Yeah, it's. It's the. It's finding the difference between what are you bringing to the table and what are you over saturating. What are you over seasoning.

[James Crichton]

You know, they all did such a truly. It was. I'm so glad that we watched it because they brought it to such beautiful and unexpected at times. Life.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. They. They just. They found so many nooks and crannies of humor realism. It was. It was. It was a lovely job. And I don't know if I ever want to see another version of it again.

[James Crichton]

Yeah. I mean, it was pretty foolproof.

[Matt Koplik]

I would love to do a reading of it with you.

[James Crichton]

Oh, it's so fun.

[Matt Koplik]

It'd be so much fun. I did do a reading of significant other a few months back, and that was very cathartic.

[James Crichton]

Really?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I need to. Ali Gordon and I would like to do a reading of Angels at some point because she has to read Harper and I have to read Lewis. It just. It's gotta happen, especially with recent events, some of the shit that Lewis has gone through. I'm like, I should probably do this out in a play at least once.

[James Crichton]

Wow. Damn.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. You know what I'm talking about.

[James Crichton]

I know what you're talking about, but I'm like, damn. I like, forgot. Like, there's so much that happens in plays.

[Matt Koplik]

In all the plays. Yes, but all six hours. Yes. The. The Louis Joe Pitt storyline. I'm like, oh, yeah. No, I should probably get these emotions out at one point.

[James Crichton]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

With a group of friends and have a brilliant writer give me the guide.

[James Crichton]

Hoax you through it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Just ride the train.

[James Crichton]

Ride the train. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Speaking of riding the trains, do you think Bobby rode Ramon's train or Ramon rode Bobby's train because Justin Kirk is taller than the actor who played Ramon. But I don't know. I feel like Bobby's.

[James Crichton]

At bottom. I don't actually know because I feel like Ramon loved to, like, advertise.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. That's something also that I want to sort of discuss. We haven't really talked about many of the characters. We talked about Perry a lot. We talked about Buzz, a little bit of Bobby and Bobby's relationship with Gregory. But, like, when we talk about the male form in this play, Ramon is definitely the one who's the most objectified. Sure. He's the youngest. He's, quote, unquote, the hottest. And he's the one who is definitely naked the most. Like his.

[James Crichton]

Fully naked.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. When the. When the play. Play begins, not the introduction, but, like, the scenes begin, he comes out naked.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And very comfortable. And I wrote something about sort of like there is. Obviously, everyone has their baggage, but I feel like there is a comfort and the confidence that some people get when they have been lucky enough to get physical attributes that many people tell them are pleasing. Which is the. Which is the most PC way I can say when someone is objectively hot. But, you know, like. Yeah, when. When someone has a body and a face that just, like, for many years are just told like, you're hot, or it's just the way you're treated. Certain people get treated very differently based on how they look. And there's a confidence you can get in that of just like, walking around with your dick out and. And not caring, especially with everyone in that house. Ramon doesn't really necessarily want to sleep with, so. So he's not worried about turning anybody on or turning himself on. He's like. He's like, they can do what they want. I know they like it. I know everyone likes it. And there's a. I don't know. It's. I feel like I've just found a very interesting commentary of that of. Of the male form of male confidence, of physical confidence that comes from being objectified. That. I don't know. Ramon, at the end of the day, is still just kind of like. Kind of a. A big nothing, you know?

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Not a bad person, necessarily, but it's all machismo. It's all confidence, all bravado. But he doesn't. He's not much of a thinking man. He is supposedly a very good dancer, but he's. And cares about dance, but he doesn't really have a career going. He doesn't. His. His mind is on the wrong stuff. He should be worrying about his craft and his career, and he's more worried about, like, turning people on and.

[James Crichton]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And being hot and. And I liked that turn at the end of the play where he and Gregory kind of connect in that great way. I did think it was a bit of a hard pivot for Gregory, but whatever It's. We were wrapping things up at that point, but when Gregory basically says to Ramon, like, join my company. Do the solo for the dance that I've spent this entire summer figuring out it, that's. That. That's a turning point for Ramon as well. He can stop just being the young, hot, objective. Yeah, yeah. And stop being objectified to start doing something.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And, yeah. I don't know. I, I, I enjoyed that. I also thought there was something to be said about, like, the costuming of him over the course of the, of the, of the period. Slightly more covered up.

[James Crichton]

Yes. A little less, but still the most fitted.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, fitted for sure. I mean, he's got a body. He's not going to not show it off, but not always, like, walking around with the swagger of, you want to see me naked? I know you do. Y. Yes. Yeah.

[James Crichton]

Yes. Agreed. And I feel like Arthur like, worked through it.

[Matt Koplik]

Worked through what?

[James Crichton]

Hit with, With Bobby.

[Matt Koplik]

Gregory. Gregory.

[James Crichton]

Sorry. I think Gregory and him kind of, like, worked through it.

[Matt Koplik]

They did, yeah.

[James Crichton]

And I think that was sort of his, like, way of kind of being, like, okay, like, do you want to be in my piece? And, like, this is how we're gonna move through this. I need to at least, like, see you and, like, have you around and know what's going on, and I can be okay with this.

[Matt Koplik]

I got. I found the moment where Gregory kind of made peace was in the disposal scene. So Gregory finds out at the end of Act 2 that Bobby and Ramon had sex.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And then we flash forward to Labor Day weekend, which is, you know, month and a half later, I guess. Yeah. And they're all back for Act 3, and Bobby and Gregory are still together, but it's not great. And uncle. And Ramon doesn't know that Gregory knows.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And he's there in the kitchen one morning dancing and, like, trying to make light with Gregory, and Gregory's not responding. And then eventually, Gregory just grabs his arm and forces him to put his hand in the disposal with the threat of, I'm going to cut your fingers off. Yeah. And he's got Gregory. He's. Gregory's got Ramon in a very compromising position, a very dangerous position, very violent position. And ultimately, Ramon does put his hand in the disposal, but it takes a lot of threatened coaxing. And once he gets him to that brink, he lets go, and he's able to sort of release all the toxic anger he had.

[James Crichton]

And you feel like, like, in that moment, he's expunged of.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's. It almost feels Like, I mean, everyone has what they need for closure, I suppose. And for me personally, with the traumas that I have had with people, what has helped me is understanding ultimately who the person I experienced the trauma with is at their core. And the only way to know that is when the chips of life are down, how are they going to act, how they were going to respond? Like, what are. What is that person going to act? And their most animalistic urges, are they going to fight? Are they going to cower? Are they going to be strong and independent? Are they going to be weak? And I think part of Gregory has this feeling of vulnerability, of being so much older than Ramon, his body starting to fall apart, and his much younger lover, who he's so obsessed with, had this moment of weakness with a guy he can't even see, but could at least tell is, you know, fitter, younger, and makes him feel a bit wounded and ultimately kind of wanted to see in this moment of danger I were to get Ramon in a moment of vulnerability, would he be stronger than me or weaker than me? Is he. Is he ultimately more of a man than I am, for lack of a better term, more of a man than I am? Or would he, you know, surrender? Surrender, yeah. And even though Ramon does put his hand in the. In the disposal, it's not. He. He acts like it's an act of defiance, but because it takes so much pressure to do it, it is ultimately surrendering to Gregory. I found, especially when Gregory lets him go, and then once he lets him go, that's when Ramon, like, pumps himself back up and, like, I would have popped you on, blah, blah, blah. And Gregory doesn't take any of it to heart. And he just goes, would you like some coffee, Ramon? And Ramon's like, go fuck yourself. Yes, please, with milk. And that's all Gregory needed to hear. It's all he needed to see to get his bit of closure, of he's not better than me in any way. It was a moment he. He. He found a way in. In a moment of vulnerability. He got it. Bobby's still with me, though, and this guy is ultimately no different than I am or better than I am.

[James Crichton]

I think you're right.

[Matt Koplik]

That is what I got from it, and that is also from my own mental instability.

[James Crichton]

I think you're right. I think you're right because it's easier. You know, they say this about, like, good plays and good players. Like, you'll see it, like, on stage. Yeah. So I think it's more interesting to process that there than, like, in the intervening time between acts.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. And so it wasn't.

[James Crichton]

You were thinking that it wasn't like a forced smile of, like, coffee. Like, it really was like a. I have rid myself of this. I've gotten what I need. Would you like your coffee black or do you want.

[Matt Koplik]

That is what I got, especially from the way that Steven Begaard has played it, because he. I think you could play it as a whole act thing of like, I'm good, I'm great. But watching Steven play that scene, I did not get that it was false. I think because of how quick the switch was. It could seem that way, but I didn't get that from him.

[James Crichton]

Sure, sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe I'm misinterpreting. I would love to sit him down and be like, talk to me about that scene. What was going on in your head?

[James Crichton]

I know. I would love to talk to Steve Bogardus.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, I mean, let's talk to that whole company. Let's. First we get Joe. We get Joe in here. We say Joe, honey, sweetie, boo, boo, child.

[James Crichton]

There should be, like. Speaking of. The world only spins forward. I feel like there should be some kind of book about this play.

[Matt Koplik]

I would like a book about a lot of the queer plays of the 80s and 90s and sort of the progression of it and which ones were able to click and be successful and which ones weren't and why and what that did for writers and actors and.

[James Crichton]

How everybody is so interwoven.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So we have someone like John Benjamin Hickey.

[James Crichton]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

Didn't really pop until the mid 2000s. He. I mean, he worked. He did. He. After this, he would do Cabaret with Natasha and Pitch Perfect, all that stuff. But, like, it wasn't really until normal heart in 2011, I think, where he really kind of came back with a vengeance and very open about his homosexuality and has done a lot of work as a gay character.

[James Crichton]

And then, of course, the inheritance.

[Matt Koplik]

The inheritance as well. Yes. Like. Well, and again, that's the representation. There are more stories, there are more roles, and he doesn't always have to just play straight and pass to get work. But that is also kind of his energy. Like, he's a. He's a rather masculine, feeling gentleman.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But even like, Steven Spinella. Steven Spinella blows up with Angels in America and does this right after. He doesn't really. He should have been like, a titan of the theater for the rest of the 90s and early 2000s, and that didn't really happen.

[James Crichton]

No, he's.

[Matt Koplik]

He's around and he works, but not to the extent that he.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Nathan Lane is the one who kind of is blown up in the way that he should have and already was blowing up at that point. But I don't. I mean, Birdcage got very lucky with how well that movie did and getting to play such a prominent queer role, but then doesn't really play gay much after. Birdcage plays, like, very outlandish straight roles like Max Bialystok and Sudalis and things like that.

[James Crichton]

Right. I'm missing. You know, I loved Other Desert Cities. I saw Justin Kirk in it again. You know, somebody I love loved him in Weeds, but I'm missing him on stage.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

We're seeing things. John Benjamin Hickey's around, though. I would love to see him in more.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[James Crichton]

Steven Spinella, Stephen Bogardus. I think last thing that I saw him in was I saw him at.

[Matt Koplik]

Brightstar, which he was very underused in.

[James Crichton]

He's the father, right? He's the father.

[Matt Koplik]

He plays the adopted father. Yeah.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

The one who finds the baby in the. In the bag. Yes.

[James Crichton]

And then I think I also saw him maybe potentially in the Girl from the north country at the Public.

[Matt Koplik]

I think he was in that.

[James Crichton]

I think he said it at the Public and then. So I loved him in that. I love him and everything. All of them. And Nathan Lane, how lucky are we? We get to see a play of his in a few weeks.

[Matt Koplik]

I know that's coming up soon. It's. It's him, Burstein and Zoe Wanamaker.

[James Crichton]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Directed by Bartlett Sher. What the fuck is that gonna be.

[James Crichton]

Written by Char White, who I love. So I'm actually very like. Oh, my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

Lots of cool shiz.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I. You know, I would love a reunion of that cast. One night only. Just get it during. And then, I don't know. I want to see some. I want to see some reunions of others in that cast. Doing other things together.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, yeah. Who was the actor who played Ramon?

[Matt Koplik]

He's.

[James Crichton]

I actually don't. He's the only actor that I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. His name is Randy Becker. Why does that sound familiar? Let's look up Randy Becker for a.

[James Crichton]

Second, shall we, please? Because he seemed familiar, but I don't know that I've seen him.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Oh. Apparently during one of the Broadway performances of Love, Valor, Compassion on Broadway, he had an epileptic seizure off stage, and his understudy had to finish halfway through. That has nothing to do with his career, though.

[James Crichton]

Oh, God.

[Matt Koplik]

He did do the movie. Nathan Lane was the only one of the original Off Broadway company who took.

[James Crichton]

Was that Jason Alexander who did the film?

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. Which I also have on dvd, by the way.

[James Crichton]

How's the film?

[Matt Koplik]

It's okay. It's. I mean, it's realistic. You know, they.

[James Crichton]

They don't speak to the camera.

[Matt Koplik]

No. As I. I don't recall that they speak to the camera. They. Jason Alexander has his opening speech to someone on the bus up to the house.

[James Crichton]

Got it. Otherwise, there's no direct address.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. He's married to Jenna Matson. They have two children. Okay, so he's straight. He's done some stuff. He was in the movie Sabrina. He played the trainer, Sabrina. He was in four episodes of the TV show Jack and Jill. He's done some producing.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. No, he's. I guess. I mean, he's worked, but he's not. This was definitely, like, his biggest thing.

[James Crichton]

And no other plays or musicals.

[Matt Koplik]

Let me see what he's done on Broadway. His only thing on Broadway is Love, Valor, Compassion.

[James Crichton]

I guess that explains why, because as, you know, as a child, I was really only studying theater. I didn't really know what was happening on TV or movies.

[Matt Koplik]

And also, like, who's watching the remake of Sabrina with Harrison Ford and being like, who's playing that trainer over there? And that role actually came out. I think the movie came out while Love, Valor Compassion was on Broadway. So it's not like he got it from the play. Yeah, no. He's definitely the only one from the cast who hasn't really kind of gone on in any major way, which is not to undercut his career, but, I mean, he's very good in the play. He's very attractive in the play. I would have expected, at the very least, a modeling contract. But, I mean, that's also the thing is this play didn't. This was not like the cultural touchstone that I think we've been implying that it was. It was big in the theater community for the time that it ran, but this wasn't an Angels where the. Where it became national news. This was not a torch song trilogy that ran for four years and toured the country. This was a succinctly successful play. It. Succinctly successful or successfully succinct, like, had a very. Had a very good Off Broadway run that was able to go immediately to Broadway, where it ran for seven months, made money, won the Tony and closed up shop before, you know, it got dire.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

But I don't think ever transferred. I never. Never toured any Major regional productions I have never personally heard of.

[James Crichton]

Me neither.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Crichton]

So we did good work today in our investigation.

[Matt Koplik]

I think so. And then it's a solid second for. Joe Mantello directs on Broadway again, which is a shame. But now he just can't stop directing. And we're grateful.

[James Crichton]

So grateful. But I also love watching him act.

[Matt Koplik]

He is a brilliant actor.

[James Crichton]

Yeah. So you kind of can't go wrong.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, honestly, some of the best directors have also been great actors. George C. Wolf is a wonderful actor and a brilliant writer. Mike Nichols. Have you ever seen any Mike Nichols acting?

[James Crichton]

No, just the comedy stuff.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, the comedy's great. Him with Elaine May.

[James Crichton]

My God, Heaven.

[Matt Koplik]

Heaven.

[James Crichton]

And that's one of the best books I've ever read.

[Matt Koplik]

The Mike Nichols biography.

[James Crichton]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

So good. But, like, he. They're both just so natural. She's an amazing actress as well. And that those sketches would not work nearly as well as they do if they weren't as good at acting.

[James Crichton]

The Waverly Gallery, all of it.

[Matt Koplik]

She's Waverly Gallery. Jesus motherfucking titty Christ. Was that a brilliant performance? One of the best I've ever seen. Wasn't acting. But, yeah, there's like, these. These directors who. I think. I think the best directors, if not necessarily all great actors, have had experience in one other field besides directing, have had a foot in writing or acting or design or something like that. Even Hellbridge, you know, producing. So he understood, like, what it took to get a show together. Anyone who just comes purely from the directing standpoint, I'm like, you become a dictator, and you aren't actually collaborative with your writers, and you aren't help approaching your actors in a way that's helpful to them, like Jerome Robbins, Michael Bennett and Bob Fosse. Brilliant men. But also, they were not educated, and they never really worked as actors. They worked as performers, but not as actors. So you hear all these horror stories about how they got their actors to give them the performances they needed because they did not know how else to get.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, I mean, the one thing that I'll say about Joe Mantella, too, is just that, like. But the thing that I was going to say about Joe Mantello, too, since this is an episode about him, is always forever. I had one of my first. Like, when I first graduated from college, I had a callback for the Last Ship that he was directing. And I remember it was like, at Telsey's old office. And I'm sure he does this to everybody, but it just stood out as something like, wow, this is somebody that I have admired for so long, my whole life. And, like, he was the first person, like, next to Bernie Telsey to, like, get up and, like, come to the door and, like, walk across the whole room and, like, shake your hand and be like, I'm so glad that you were able to. To come here today. Like, it's so nice to meet you. Thank you. And I was just like, what? But I think, again, it's like, he knows what it is to enter that room and put yourself out there. And I was just so blown away by that generosity and how present he was throughout the entirety of all of it. Yeah. And I don't know. I just. I'm glad that we spoke so much about him, but also, I hope that we paid enough homage to the late Terrence McDowelli.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, Terrence was a very good writer, and I. I think his best work was honestly, in librettos. But Love, Valor, Compassion is a lovely play. Master Class is so much fun. All right, we gotta wrap things up. James.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

We have a game. We do now with this series.

[James Crichton]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

They are the same game with just two different titles. One is called who Lives, who Dies? Janine Desor. The other is called Six Degrees of Sally Murphy. They are the same game. It is just six degrees of both women. Okay. We have to find six degrees from this show to both of these women separately. Oh, we can include. So it's cast members of shows. It can be writers. It can be directors, too, or. Or designers. We try not to do replacement actors. And it can. You can do, like, revivals of stuff. But. So, like, for example, anybody that was.

[James Crichton]

A part of this play.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. So, like, I'm trying to give an example of, like, one show we did where it was like, oh, original production of Once Upon a Mattress. Carol Burnett did Putting It Together, which was designed by Bob Crowley, who designed Carousel with Sally Murphy. Like, that kind of thing. Yeah. So who do we want to start with first? Janita story. Sally Murphy.

[James Crichton]

Janine's story is actually pretty easy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. You think he got one?

[James Crichton]

Maybe.

[Matt Koplik]

Go for it.

[James Crichton]

We start with Janine.

[Matt Koplik]

No, you, You. Well, we try to find somebody in this show and then try to connect it to Gene. But you could. But you could also work backwards. Start with the cheese and then find your way to the.

[James Crichton]

Maybe it's actually not as easy. And I'm a big mouth.

[Matt Koplik]

No. Okay. Okay. Let's. Let's. Let's try. Let's pick somebody from Love, Valor, Compassion. Do you want to pick or do you want to pick Terence himself, but can you.

[James Crichton]

The last question that I have before we do it is, like, can a thing be an institution? Or no.

[Matt Koplik]

What do you mean, a thing can be an institution?

[James Crichton]

Like, can a thing be, like, a person, place or thing.

[Matt Koplik]

Place or thing.

[James Crichton]

Playwrights Horizons. Or like this.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, no, no, no, no.

[James Crichton]

It can't be an institution. It has to be a person.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, it has to be a person. A show. Yeah, a person, a show. It can't be, like, yeah.

[James Crichton]

Play.

[Matt Koplik]

Arthritis. Horizons does not count. Unless it was a production of Playwrights Horizons. Like, if a production of that Violet production. Someone in that show connected to love, Violet, compassion. I'll start with Sally Murphy, because this one's easy and short. Terrence McNally wrote the libretto to man in the Unicorns.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, that's funny.

[Matt Koplik]

There we go.

[James Crichton]

Yeah, that's no fun.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. Terrence McNally wrote the libretto to Ragtime with Audra McDonald, who's in carousel with Sonny Murphy.

[James Crichton]

That's more fun. Sure, Janine is harder, but I think there's something with the public, but I just have to figure out what it is.

[Matt Koplik]

So we've got Fun Home, Carolina Change, Violet, Thoroughly Modern Millie. We could also do when she did the vocal and dance arrangements for how to Succeed or for the revival of Sound of Music. We can also talk about how she was the. She did, I think, the vocal arrangements for Secret Garden and was even the music director.

[James Crichton]

But, like, is it so. I feel like I'm doing a terrible job with this, but, like, Janine Tesori wrote Caroline or Change.

[Matt Koplik]

Great.

[James Crichton]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay.

[James Crichton]

She collaborated with George C. Wolfe.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. No, that counts. So what you could say is Steven Spinella.

[James Crichton]

Stephen Spinella in Angels in America, directed.

[Matt Koplik]

By George C. E Wolf.

[James Crichton]

C. Wolf, who directed Caroline Change for Janine's story.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[James Crichton]

So I found it.

[Matt Koplik]

You just found it? Yeah.

[James Crichton]

Great.

[Matt Koplik]

Also, Joe Mantello, Angels in America.

[James Crichton]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. All works out. It's all coming back to Manhattan.

[James Crichton]

So I did it.

[Matt Koplik]

You did it. You did it. You did it, Joe. We did it. Joyous. This has been delightful. Where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[James Crichton]

At James Underscore Crichton.

[Matt Koplik]

Amazing. If you want to find me at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, give us five stars. Give us a nice review. We have a new review. I need to. I need to give it out. Yeah. Get a credit where it's due. Okay. Are we ready, Hugh? The Light in the Piazza Overture. Music. Five stars. The big move to another rating. I had left a review for this podcast when it first started. 5 stars then as well. But since the podcast has changed a lot since then, I have decided to edit my review. This podcast is so much fun because it shares so much Broadway history of shows. Exclamation point. Always worth five stars. Exclamation point, love. Exclamation point. Valor. Exclamation point, compassion. Exclamation point. Bringing it all back together. Thank you so much, James. We got to close this out with some Broadway diva. I just. Just don't know who. And there are no women in this show, so we can. Let's do some overlap. There's reference to Judy Holiday, Lucille Ball, Ethel Merman, Barbara Cook, Barbra Streisand, Judy Garland.

[James Crichton]

I think you need to end with hey, look me over.

[Matt Koplik]

Hey, look me over. Lend me anything. That's what I was saying.

[James Crichton]

Or Elaine Stretch singing something from Sail On.

[Matt Koplik]

Sail away, sail away, sail away.

[James Crichton]

But you've already used her.

[Matt Koplik]

I have done Elain. We'll do Lucio. We'll do hey, look me over.

[James Crichton]

Hey, look me over Over.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's. It's, it's. It's still the first musical number reference in the show.

[James Crichton]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Hey, look me over. There we go. Done. Join us next week for God knows what, because this whole thing's being done out of order, and, I don't know, it's all a mess. And that's it for now. Have a great week, everybody. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you, James. Take us away, Lucy. A little bit short of the elbow room, but let me get me some.

[James Crichton]

And look out, world, here I come. Come on, Jamie.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, wowy.

[James Crichton]

Them laugh at us.

[Matt Koplik]

Not if we sing loud enough. Come on.

[James Crichton]

Follow along, she says and paint him a rosy view and tell him a story.