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Foreign. Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history unt legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Koflik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And welcome back. I missed y'. All. It's been a very, very long summer, very tiring summer. We've done a whole lot of things this summer for the podcast and I can't wait for you guys to hear them all, experience them all. It's a really exciting time. Lot of changes here at Broadway Breakdown and I need to tell you guys all about them. Now. This episode is going to be a review of the production of Heather's. It's at New World Stages, followed by an interview with Ron Fassler, author, new book, the Show Goes On Broadway, Hirings, Firings and Replacements. Before we get into all that, we have some housekeeping to do. I know some of you really hate that, but I'm telling you, this is very important. Housekeeping. You need to hear all this stuff because we got some changes, some announcements and so if you're running late and you really don't want to hear all this, you want to get right to the Heathers, then you know, fast forward, maybe like eight, nine minutes. We're going to keep it tight, but we got a lot of stuff to get over. But try to listen if you can because you want to be up to date on all of this. There's a lot of exciting stuff. First exciting piece of news, November 14th at Green Room 42. Broadway Breakdown is going to have a live musical episode. One could call it a cabaret. In fact the title of it is Broadway Breakdown. A cabaret. Now we're in the middle of brainstorming it, but the gist is basically a 70 minute shrink wrapped edition of Broadway Breakdown. Hosted by me. It's gonna offer some insights and historical trivia on all things Broadway. Accompanied by a three piece band because there will be singing, yes, singing. There might be a guest or two. There might be some audience participation. There might be an appearance by Sally Bowl. The only way you can know for sure is to buy ticks at the link in the description box. November 14th at 7pm at Greenroom 42. We're gonna try and sell this baby out. I will remind y' all in episodes to come. I don't think I've remember to tell people in the first two deep dives, but I'll put it in the description box anyway. So just remember that and we're going to announce it everywhere on social media and we're going to keep pumping it out. Creator doom42 November 14 Next up, substack. If you remember from Tony time, Broadway Breakdown has launched a substack. Substack in a lot of ways is like, you know, a newsletter or like a blog. And many people use it. Sort of like a blog meets people. Patreon and a lot of amazing writers and huge names for joining Substack and getting followers, and we've decided to do the same. Many people who found me on Instagram found me because they loved my writing, my reviews of Broadway shows, my, you know, little opinion pieces on theater at large random. I sometimes use Instagram like tweets, which is not really how you're supposed to, but whatever. And a lot of you have joined the substack, almost 200 of you @ this point. And it is free. Right now you get access to a whole bunch of new written pieces by me for the podcast. Why should you or why should someone you know join Substack? Well, if you're listening to this, clearly you're a podcast person, but there are a lot of people who are not podcast people who might enjoy what Broadway Breakdown has to offer. I know plenty of people who follow me on Instagram solely for the writing and have even written on Reddit that they would listen to Broadway Breakdown, but they just can't do podcasts. But they like my writing. So we're trying to have it both ways. We want to have the podcast and we want to have writing and we want to connect the two. So Substack will have written transcripts of the episodes from Broadway Breakdown for those who maybe want to read it. We also will have articles that sort of summarize and give hot takes and pieces of trivia from our Deep Dive episodes. It will also have reviews that will be translated from our review episodes on Broadway Breakdown as well as reviews that will only be on Substack. Case in point, two reviews that will not be on the podcast but will be on Substack are my reviews of Ginger Twinsies and Masquerade, the all encompassing interactive Phantom of the Opera experience. This is sort of for maybe your sister or your best friend or your cousin or your teacher, people who really enjoy reading or like to sort of scroll through stuff but can't really do the whole listening experience. Plenty of people can't do that and I totally get that. So we are trying to combine the two. There will also be exclusive podcasts, podcast content on there. We are going to start launching video content from the podcast on YouTube, on Instagram, so you can see all of that. As of right now, Substack is free, but we will be eventually, at the end of the year, I believe, launching a tiered payment system. So you can still get access to plenty of content on our substack for free at the end of the year. But if you choose to, you can get more content for whatever tier that you choose to pay. And that's helpful because your donation, your support will help Broadway Breakdown continue. You'll also get announcements for us, like for merch. You and I can have wonderful interactions because even though we have a Discord Channel and it's thriving well over 300 members, I am less on the Discord Channel now. And Substack is where I can answer your questions more specifically to you. So I do recommend that with substack. Another reason why we need the substack is because you may have noticed that there hasn't been a bumper for BPN for Broadway Podcast Network on this episode or anytime you've been listening to Broadway Breakdown. That is because Broadway Breakdown is no longer a part of Broadway Podcast Network. There is nothing dramatic there. It's just a change that we felt really ready for for the podcast. We're expanding, we're making changes. We're really excited about a lot of it and it made sense for us to kind of go out on our own in the meanwhile. And BPN was, you know, they were, they were disappointed that we were leaving, but they gave us their blessing. It was very clean, it was very smooth sailing. All is good on both ends. We still like them, they still like us. So please, nobody write any burn book stuff. All is good over here. It really is very boring. No drama. Also another thing, I asked y' all to give us some nice 5 star ratings, even reviews, if you could. Because we were submitting Broadway Breakdown to the Broadway League so we could be an official member of the so we could guarantee reviews for every show each season. We have wonderful relationships with all the press teams for Broadway shows. So we've been able to see quite a few shows on press seats. And the ones that we couldn't, we did have to pay out of pocket. And it's an expensive way to go about. So we're trying to not do that so much. Unfortunately, Broadway League did not accept us. You don't have to be so disappointed. Plenty of our friends and contemporaries also did not get accepted. But you guys have been doing a great job with the reviews, with the ratings but both on Spotify with over 150 at this point, I think, and over 340 on Apple. So we just want you guys to keep it up. I know some of you have reached out to me saying that you plan to write a review, you just haven't done it yet. Now's the time. If you are sort of not sure if you want to post review, but you like the podcast, just give us a nice five star rating. That's all that matters. People really like to see the high numbers and as we are, you know, going to wait till next season to try again, in the meantime, we are going to keep contacting the Broadway press teams and the higher our numbers are, the more advantageous they will find for us to, you know, be included in their press tickets for upcoming shows. Okay. Yeah, so with bpn, we had ad breaks. We still have ad breaks on Broadway Breakdown, you'll still hear your Billy. I beg to differ with you transitions, but because we are working independently, my producing team and I are looking into acquiring sponsors of our own. This is a process. So while we will be cutting to commercial frequently in the episodes, you may not always hear a commercial, not yet anyway. This will continue down the road. This is the way we hope to make more revenue. This is another reason why it's very important to support the substack as we, you know, really try to make Broadway Breakdown a committed, consistent enterprise. You know, no one here is trying to become a billionaire who wants to be a person. I'm sure a lot of people want to be billionaires. I do not. I, I want to still be an ethical person, but I would like to be able to, you know, live and, and be comfortable in a way that I can keep doing this for you guys and not be stressed about it and also like maybe pay one or two people to help me out because I'm still very much a one man band. Recording, researching, editing, writing. It's all still very much me in that respect. So. We wanna, we wanna make it grow. And you guys have been so great about making it grow, but this is just another thing. Speaking of the episodes and we were getting to Heathers and Ron Fassler in literally two minutes. But something you guys should know about the episodes themselves as well as the look of the podcast. You might have noticed we've got new artwork with my beautiful face on it. Ain't it wonderful? It's part of our rebranding. It's all about branding, it's all about expansion. And not for nothing, but this artwork is by Gunkle of the pod, Adam Ellsbury. So everyone say thank you. Gunkle. Adam. Sorry, I might sound a little manic. I'm on Prednisone, so Ivy Lynn on Smash really was onto something with her manic behavior. Long story short, I've been sick and my throat has been going through the wringer. And the only thing that CityMD could do other than antibiotics, which they didn't feel comfortable prescribing just yet, was Prednisone. So it's helping with the pain, but I'm also a little insane. Now, after this episode of Heather's and Ron Fassler, our first deep dive will be. Drumroll, please. Dream Girls with Jason Vesey, star of Strange Loop, Only Murders in the Building and the upcoming Best Madison on Fox. Woo. We also have Hedgehog and the Angry Inch with Preston Max Allen, friend of the POD and author of the musical We Are the Tigers and the upcoming play Caroline at mcc. We will have who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? With Ginger Twinsies, Mad Scientist Kevin Zak and Drowsy Chaperone with social media siren Eli Rallo just as a starter. And then, last thing, we have updated our equipment so we've got some new microphones. We have a new recording software. It's all very exciting, but it's also very brand new to us. This software requires us to record more remote episodes with guests rather than in person as we used to. And I know you guys are aware that we have technical mishaps sometimes on Broadway Breakdown, inconsistent audio is sort of the name of the game. We are trying to have more consistent audio this time. It's a little tricky at the jump. So you will hear a couple of episodes where audio is not as great as we would like it to be. Just know that these are kinks that we've been smoothing out ourselves. So you will hear progress very quickly in the first few episodes. So just be aware that we're aware. And with these kind of changes comes a few bumps, but we're smoothing it out, and it's part of the exciting part of growth. And we're really happy that you guys get to see this. And I really hope that in a year's time, Broadway Breakdown can be at a place where those of you who've been with us forever can say, you know, oh, I'm an OG breakdowner, and just be happy to include more people into the fam. So that's it. We're gonna take a quick break and then we will get into Heather's. And then after Heather' Ron Fassler. So let's take that break. You're an arrow caller. You're the top. You're a coolage dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Est. Veronica, Veronica, Veronica, Veronica. And you know, you know. And we are back. So next up on the agenda we have my review of Heather's back off Broadway at New World Stages. Now, Heathers has been playing at this point for a good two months, so I'm sure everyone's heard word about how it is or how the actors are. But. So you're only really listening to this because you want to hear what I have to say because I did do a deep dive on this show with Chelsea Williams about a year and a half ago. You can definitely listen to more of that. There's a lot of intricate discussions on what it means to be a woman in this country, what it means to be bullied and outcast, what toxic relationships are and mental health and depression and so on and so forth. So I guess as I go into this trigger warning for those who don't know Heather's this musical does deal with a lot of upsetting subject matters such as suicide and depression and assault and bullying and things like that. The musical also takes a very sardonic tone to it, a kind of campy tone to it. I will get all into that in a second. Also, if you don't know Heathers, I'm going to be giving a brief plot description. It's got a couple of spoilers, but those of you who do know the show will know that I do not give away a good chunk of the story. It's really only spoilery up until halfway through Act 1 1, and then I kind of rush through the rest of the show briefly in my summary. So that's to say plot description of Heather's it is based off of the 1989 cult classic starring Winona Ryder and Christian Slater. The musical follows Veronica Sawyer, a high school senior and outcast in 1989 Ohio, who, after proving herself useful, joins the popular clique the Heathers, aptly named because all three members are named Heather, run by the canonically titled mythic Heather Chandler. Veronica feels morally confused as she is now immune to high school bullying by being a member of the Heathers. But now she must be complicit in the bullying that they do to others, primarily Veronica's former friend Martha. At the same time, a mysterious and most definitely dangerous bad boy who's new to town, Jason Dean comes on the scene and he and Veronica instantly click. After a high school party goes horribly wrong, Veronica is cast out of the Heathers. She and JD bone then plot revenge on Heather Chandler, which goes horribly wrong, resulting in Heather Chandler's death and Veronica and JD impulsively forging a suicide note to avoid arrest. The note ends up being too good and too moving, however, and the two accidentally turn Heather Chandler into a beloved martyr. Things go further off the rails. Just cuz Heather Chandler is dead doesn't mean that another Heather won't take her place. There are vicious rumors, sad reveals, childhood traumas resulting in more deaths accidental by some, planned by others, more suicide notes, and of course more high belting. There is an epic showdown between Veronica and JD debating whether humanity can be saved or if it is better to just destroy it all and build anew from the ashes. Veronica's viewpoint does win in the end. Spoiler and she makes she takes the mantle as the school leader and chooses to rule with kindness. And again everyone belts that is Heather's in a nutshell. Now we're getting more spoilery. So if you want to know what I thought but don't want to hear any other things like that, I will say my history with Heathers is I came from the movie first as a kid. I'm a Winona Ryder fan, Little Women, Mermaids, Edward Scissorhands, Beetlejuice, Age of Innocence, Dracula, Come on, Bram Stokos, Dracula and of course Heathers. And this movie was very much in my DNA. This clueless and mean girls were like, those were my high school movies. So I wasn't not into the idea of it being a musical. I was just interested to see how they did it. And when I saw it in 2014 at New World Stages, I was very underwhelmed, I will admit. And I have since come to appreciate a lot of the score as I've listened to it over the years since it came out. And of course the show has taken on a huge following since its original Off Broadway run, which is why it has come back to Off Broadway more popular than ever and now doing, you know, a whole bunch of other productions around the world. That's to say, I had a better time at Heather's at this production. This production is much better than the previous production. It has money, which is not always necessary for a show to be good, but for something like this, the original production was so bare bones that there was really nothing to go off of the set for. This actually gives a better idea of a darker tone to the show than the original production did. And a Lot more of the performances feel less cartoony, which helps. And everyone in the cast is very well synced to their roles. It's phenomenally sung. So, yeah, I will say I did overall enjoy this production a lot more. And they also made some tweaks to Heather's the Musical, some of which I think are good, some of which I don't think are good. I will get you all of that in a second. If you want to hear no more, you can skip to my interview with Ron Fassler, who wrote the book. The show goes on at the end of this episode. The rest of you can stick around. My biggest MVPs of the cast would be at number one, Mackenzie Kurtz as Heather Chandler. My biggest thing about Heather's the Musical, and I'm saying this now, and I'll delve into it further in a second, but I'm saying this now as I talk about the performances, is that musical theater overall is a more optimistic medium than any other medium. Even shows like Les mis, where, like, 90% of the characters are dead, ends with an uplifting do you hear the people sing? And Heather's ends in a very uplifting note. And Heather's is based off of a very, very biting satire of a movie, a movie that could never be made now, because a lot of the humor from Heather's in 1989 was a response to all the John Hughes films of the 80s, describing high school as this sort of magic kingdom where, like, fairy tales could come true. Quirky, sexual fairy tales, but fairy tales nonetheless. The geek could get the girl, or the, you know, the girl geek could get the guy, and class could be overcome. And then it didn't matter if you were pretty or popular, and everyone had a story and everyone was special. And Heather's movie sort of came out and said, no, high school's awful. Kids are awful. They're vicious. They are cruel. And all the things you say don't matter do matter. Attractiveness matters. Money matters. Class and status matters. How you act matters. Saying the right thing, wearing the right thing, matters. And then it went one step further with the violence of it all, with the shootings and whatnot, which in 1989 was not a reality in schools. Columbine 10 years later would really change all of that, which is why Heather's could never be made today. They even tried to make Heather's a TV show a few years ago, and it failed miserably. So the musical already has to kind of lighten up a bit on the violence, because we live in a post Columbine World. And it also has to lighten up on some of the bitterness because this is ultimately a musical. And even though this is a more bitter musical than a lot of other teenage musicals, it's not as bitter as the movie. I say this because the characters in the movie, while they are satirical prototypes or archaeologists. Satirical archetypes is what I meant to say. While they are satirical archetypes, there are nuances to a lot of them. It's not, you know, this intimate, grounded movie that does a deep dive into all of these characters souls, but they give the movie gives so many of the characters a couple of facets, which mostly just keeps them interesting. The musical's not really interested in that. Everyone is created pretty broadly as a character, you know, everyone. Some characters will get like a little bit more of a turn. Heather McNamara, one of the Heathers, gets a little bit of an introspective moment. JD Gets Freeze youe Brain, but that's really kind of it. Otherwise the musical goes very broad colors. And that's really hard for me to watch and to really appreciate what an actor can do because you have to do what the material requires while also elevating it in a way. So that way you're not copying the movie, but you are not desecrating its memory. Which is why I am putting Mackenzie Kurtz as Heather Chandler as my number one mvp, because I felt that she was able to have that balance perfectly. As I said. Again, this is overall a very well cast production. Mackenzie has, in my opinion, the most fully formed specific performance. Vocally wonderful and like has that mean girl energy to Heather Chandler that makes you terrified of her, but also has a seductive energy to her. What she doesn't really have, and that's not. This is not her fault, it's not in the script, is that her Heather Chandler doesn't feel like an adult in kids clothing or a kid in adult's clothing, if you will. Heather Chandler in the movie, you often forgot that she was 17 because. Or 16 actually, because she walked with such poise and such grace and kind of looked at high school as beneath her. It was something she had to get through to go to where her people were. Heather Chandler in the movie only went to college parties and stopped dating high school boys and started to only date college boys. She needed to be better than everyone. And she knew also how to manipulate everybody. She knew how to act like a kid in front of parents so they wouldn't suspect. She knew how to compliment the right kids even if she didn't like them, so she could get what she wanted from them. And in the musical, Heather Chandler is just like a blunt, vicious dictator with no real grace to it. Now, it's fun on stage, but it's less interesting to me. And that's not something mackenzie Kurtz is failing at. That's something that the musical just doesn't do do. And I still want to give her her flowers for going the furthest in this musical that I've ever seen of a performer getting as close to the movie while honoring all the things that the musical does. After her, I would say, would be Elizabeth teeter as Heather McNamara, who is doing something that I really appreciate, which is, I think we've talked about this on the podcast before, of when you're playing comedy, and specifically one that goes to pretty big extremes, like Heather's. You don't really want to play it for laughs. It has to be real for your character, but your character has to be a little ridiculous. Therefore, it doesn't feel super dramatic. It can still be funny, but also, when shit does get real, we maybe feel a little something. We're invested in it. And I thought that Elizabeth Teeter did a really good job of having that hero. Heather McNamara is a bit more of a bimbo than the one in the movie or even in the original 2014 production. And I don't mean bimbo like super slutty airhead, just like she's. She's a bit of a space cadet. And it comes through in her voice and her mannerisms where she's just sort of gliding. And she has the privilege to glide because she looks the way she does. She's probably as wealthy as she is and has been in this clique for a very long time. So for her, life isn't all that hard, which is why Lifeboat is actually a very wonderful song and shows that she's not quite as dumb as we think. And if life is tough for her, then it's got to be tough for everybody. And I thought that Teeter had a really good blend of that. Aaron L. Morton as Martha, I thought was so sweet. Martha is a composite of two roles from the movie. Martha Dunstock, who does not speak, and Betty Finn, who does speak. Betty Finn in the original movie is Veronica Sawyer's former best friend, who Veronica keeps trying to reconnect with to kind of get back to her roots of being a nice person. More about the differences between the two in a second. And then Martha Dunstock is a heavyset character who's always getting bullied. And we Never hear from her until she finally tries to end her life. And luckily she doesn't succeed. But she comes back to school in a scooter and Winona Rider as Veronica comes to her after everything's gone down, and she says, you know, I would love to hang out with you. Can we hang out? And Martha says, I would love that. And that is what the lesson that Veronica learns, that the only change you can make is the change you make yourself. There's no easy out. You don't get rid of one problem, and then there are no more problems. There's always going to be new problems emerging. You have to be the change you want to see. So in the musical, Betty and and Martha are together. Martha Dunstock in this show, and Martha is a very kind soul. She's also very, very innocent and very naive in a way that can be very grating when played, you know, put in the wrong hands. And maybe it's because Aaron L. Morton is probably the youngest in the cast. I believe it said that she was a sophomore in Michigan, so she's going back to school after doing this for three months. But she was so earnest and just natural as Martha. She. It was very much. She just truly believed what she believed. And she did not play up the little girlness of it all. She let the costume and the word speak for itself. And when she sang Kindergarten Boyfriend, it was less of a powerhouse stop the show moment. Although it did, you know, get a very wild response. It was more of a slow and sad realization, which I thought was very helpful for the likes of this show. Then next up, we have Casey Likes as JD Who I thought did a very good job, my only concern with Casey, it's not a concern, but my only note, I should say, is that while JD Is ultimately the villain of the piece because he's the instigator of so much of the crimes that happen. There has to be a seductive quality to him. He can't fully read as disturbed right off the bat. And Casey kind of does. He plays JD Very, very troubled and very, very angsty right at the jump. And once the show starts to take a darker turn, like once we get to honestly, Our Love is God is like when I thought that Kayce was perfect from Our Love Is God to the end of the show. But before that, it was a little trickier because in order for someone like Veronica to trust him, there has to be something about him that seems trustworthy. Kayce, for me, was kind of playing the end of the show at the top of the show, which I think is a mistake. It's entirely possible that that's not what he's intending to play. That's just what I got from it. But he sounds great. And as I said, when we get to act two, he's really in the thick of it, and he just nails all of it and really has that danger about him, which I really appreciated. There's also Xavier McKinnon as Ram, Cade Ostermaier as Kurt, who are both very. Kerry Butler, of course, sounding amazing. My only true mixed B performance was Lorna Courtney as Veronica. Lorna is an incredible singer. Just voice like an iron tank engine. I don't know. Sorry, guys. It's been. It's been a day. But I was interested to see what her take on the role would be. And in a lot of ways, what I thought was interesting was that she incorporated Veronica at the top of the show into Veronica for the rest of the show. So Veronica always was kind of nerdy. She's just in hot girl clothes, but she's still, you know, that outsider inside. The thing about Veronica, at least how I view her in the writing, both in the movie and in the musical, I will say, is that Veronica as a nerd isn't goofy so much as she's dry and witty and very above it all because she's honestly so much smarter than the rest of her peers. There's a note in the movie that's not in the show where you learn that Veronica's parents had gotten her IQ tested and she tested super genius level and could have actually skipped two grades. And her parents said, no, we want to get her socialized. And Veronica says that's the irony, is that now I'm super socialized. All I. I use my genius IQ to figure out what lip gloss to wear tonight. And part of what makes her gel with Heather Chandler is that while she fears her, she is also able to stand up to her sometimes. And again, this is where one of the major differences between the movie and the show comes into play in terms of nuance. But Lorna's Veronica was kind of goofy in a way where it was. How would I describe it? I know that Annaleigh Ashford did Heather's in Concert at Joe's Pub. I'm interested to know what her Veronica was like, because it feels a bit like how annaleigh Ashford did Mrs. Lovett and Sweeney Todd, where it was like. And I think that can be included occasionally. But I have always. This is. Maybe this is my own rigidness, having lived with the material for so Long in my life. But I've always viewed Veronica really as the dry narrator outsider, not the goofy, struggling underdog. Especially because Veronica does do a lot of bad crap and. Or lets a lot of bad crap happen and walks away from it. More so in the movie, but also a bit in the musical. And so that was sort of my big issue with Lorna. I just. I. I did not care for a lot of her takes in scenes. And there was actually a lot of laughs that she lost because of that. But she sang the absolute shit out of it. And, you know, she was. She gave a very emotionally involved performance that I won't lie, like, very much hit. She had very good chemistry with Aaron L. Morton's Martha. And that was very nice. As I also said, another positive. The aesthetic of this production, the design, I think is pretty inventive. Or, sorry, it's not terribly exceptional. And it's. I won't know. I won't say. I won't say it's inventive. It's mostly a unit set with a couple of things that pop out to like, be a bedroom, be a classroom, I guess, or a church. And it's not quite fluid enough in the scene changes with this to keep the show running because the show runs long, I will say. But it gives you a better tone of the show and a bitter landscape of sort of where everything takes place as opposed to like the giant psych with colors for. Projected onto it from the original. And I will also say some of the rewrites do help. I think that you're welcome. Is an improvement over blue. My issue is that I just don't think that that scene should be a song. The scene I'm referring to. And again, you can hear more about this in the. Heather's deep dive is the scene where in the movie it's Heather Chandler after the. Sorry. Heather McNamara. After the funeral of Heather Chandler, sort of strong arms Veronica into going on a double date with her with Curtain Ram, the football jocks. And they end up going cow tipping. And we cut to. I think it's Ram. Ram. Sorry to trigger anybody but date raping Heather McNamara. I remember when I was a kid and I was watching it, I didn't realize that's what it was. I thought that they were having very messy drunk sex. Because clearly Kurt and Ram were very drunk in the scene. But as I'd gotten older, and then, of course, as I read the screenplay, I was like, oh, that's an assault. So, yes, Arem is date raping McNamara and Veronica is Just sort of walking away to get away from Kurt. And it's all very laissez faire. And when Heather McNamara thinks about it later, she doesn't refer to it as an assault. She thinks of it as just, oh, the last guy I had sex with. And the musical makes that a moment where Veronica shows up because she gets a call from Heather Chandler and Heather Duke, and they tell her that they got, you know, strong armed into going out with Kurt and Ram, who are out cow tipping. And the only way that they could get out of there is if Veronica showed up. And they took her car and left Veronica for them. They needed an exchange. So Veronica was like, oh, so you set me up to get assaulted? And they leave her there. And the song you're welcome becomes this song where Kurt and Ram are like, you used to be a nobody and now you're hot. And we did that for you. You're welcome. We want to bone you now. You're welcome. Meanwhile, Veronica has an inner monologue of self defense and self awareness of how do I get out of this? Which he eventually does. And it's not a bad song. I just think it's a scene that doesn't need to be musicalized. I really do. You can disagree. I know a couple people on the production team who have reached out to me after the Heather's deep dive, and they disagree. But they did appreciate how I spoke about why I thought it shouldn't be musicalized. That's something that I will take pride in on this podcast is 99% of the time, the people who I speak of in my reviews, they'll hear it and they will say, you know, whether they are appreciative of the praise or not, if. If there's criticism, 99% of the time, they go, oh, yeah, like, either it's I agree with you or I disagree, but, like, I see what you're saying and thank you for saying it not in a totally dickish way, which I appreciate. I have another song in here that I actually think is the opposite of youf're welcome. It's a song that is actually. I won't say it's. It's a. So it's a scene that needs to be musicalized. It could be. I understand why it would be. I just hate the song. And the song is an ACC2. When Veronica and JD have just finished the funeral for Kurt and Ram. After 17. I think it's before Martha. Yeah, it's before Martha. It's before Martha. They learn that Martha tries to kill Herself. Martha does sing Kindergarten Boyfriend. And then there's a scene with JD and Veronica. And in this scene, Veronica realizes that she's got to get out of whatever she has with JD and not say yes to any of his plans. So she sings the song I say no. And I. I will be blunt about this. I hate this song. Now, has Lawrence o' Keefe and Kevin Murphy written stuff in this show and in other shows that I do love? Yes. So I feel okay saying that I hate this song because, a, it doesn't sound like any other song in the show. It goes on for far too long. And I think that it is not as clever or razor sharp as any of the other pieces in this score. A score that I think over time I've come to improve in my mind in terms of its ranking. But this song, I just can't get behind. I think that it is so power, Anthony, in a way that feels so anti. Heather's not just the show like Heather's the brand. It's a moment that is so concise on film that is done for three and a half minutes on stage and only exists because it stops the show because Lorna Courtney is an amazing singer and she sings the fucking shit out of it. And the audience does go crazy because that is what audiences do now. They go crazy for when a song allows an actor or actress, any performer, to sing their face off. We're applauding the agility, not the artistry. And we all know it. So, like, let's just calm down. Right? Yeah, that's. That's just a rewrite that I can't deal with. I also think that that song is very pandering. And I just. Yeah, you all know how I feel about pandering. The. The other new song, I won't shut up ever again, which is for Heather duke in Act 1. It's fine. It's not great. It's fine. I get why it's there. I think it's important for Heather Duke to have sort of a turning point moment for her musically. I wish they could take another pass at it, but at this point, you know, it's working for enough fans that I'm sure they're okay with it. And the show still does feel long. Act one feels very, very long. But act two also then drags before it gets to the final showdown. This is why I think you're welcome. And I say no can be cut. I also think that this is where things like scene transitions taking 10 seconds too long or even 5 seconds too long. Really kill momentum. When you're in a musical, you can't let the momentum die. It has to keep moving. And I'm not talking. You'll hear us talk more about this in the Dreamgirls episode, but not like a Dreamgirls where it's like nonstop, nonstop, nonstop. But there is an energy that you have to have and a rhythm you have to follow, a pacing you have to follow with a musical. And when you have blackouts with 10 second scene changes, I'm sorry, but, like, it kills momentum a little bit. It's death by a thousand cuts. So I think two songs can be cut. I think a couple of lines here and there can be cut. And then I think just some tightening up of scene transitions and some scene work. Shave off, you know, 10 minutes of the show be. Yeah, a whole lot of good. So back to what I was saying about optimism in musical theater. As I said, even shows that are sad and suffering, like Les Mis tend to end on a very big, hopeful note. I think the only mainstream musical that had commercial success, like all over the World, that ends in a way where you're like, okay, depressing is miss Igon, honestly. And Miss Igon could be depressing or vengeful, depending on how you view it. We call that final scene Kim's last chess move. That's. That's a little Broadway breakdown insight for y'. All. Yeah, it's.
- [36:38]
B
It's.
- [36:38]
A
The Heathers movie is so acidic and it's so bitter and it's bitingly funny, but it's also nuanced. Right. Veronica is a flawed, often hateable protagonist. Heather Chandler is villainous, but she has demons. In the movie, the party that Big Fun takes place at in the show is a high school party that everybody is at. So in some ways there is a safety net. It also is. It being at a high school party infuriates me for two reasons. One is in the movie, Heather Chandler takes Veronica to a college party where they meet up with Heather Chandler's sort of college boyfriend and his friend, who they're trying to set up with Veronica. And they get separated and Veronica gets sick and pukes. And Heather Chandler reams her out and tells her, like, you know, you'll be history on Monday. I'm going to tell everybody about this. But the reason why she's being extra bitchy is because half an hour earlier, Heather Chandler and her sort of boyfriend were alone in his room. And he will say, well, he forces her to give him oral sex. He doesn't physically push her, but he coerces her in a sense where she clearly doesn't want to, and he makes her do it. And she does it because she wants him to keep liking her. She's also alone in this room, so like both peer pressure and her own safety. And so we cut back to her after the fact in the bathroom, taking a sip of water, looking at herself in the mirror, and spitting at her reflection afterwards. And that spit kind of does two things. In one way, it's possibly Heather Chandler, slut, shaming herself, victim, blaming herself of you, slut. How could you do that? You're cheap. Go fuck yourself. Or it's Heather Chandler being mad at herself for being weak because Heather Chandler doesn't think of herself as weak. And so she's spitting at her own reflection for having the audacity to be vulnerable for even a minute. And then when she finds out that Veronica has spurned the advances of the other college guy, that makes Heather extra bitchy because she was like, I went through with it. What's your problem? The fact that Heather Chandler goes to college parties in the movie, as I said, it's representative of who she is as a person. She thinks she's above it all. She's elevated. And in the movie, they're all juniors, by the way, there's a great line where she says, I'm worshiped at Westerberg and I'm only a junior. Which means that she's got a whole nother year to a year and a half, really, to reign at this school. Also in the movie, Veronica has been a member of the Heathers for a while now. We don't see how she got in the group. As far as we know, she's been in the group for all of high school. Because Veronica is very much, as we learn from all the other guys in school, she and Heather Chandler are considered the two hottest girls in school, which is clearly why Heather Chandler took her into her flock. And Veronica wanted it because she wanted, as we said in the plot summary, she wanted protection. She didn't want to get harassed, and she wanted control. She wanted power. So when Heather Chandler dies in the movie, it has a lot more nuance because she and Veronica have a lot more years of history together as friends slash enemies. Back to the party for a second. In the musical, big fun is the high school party. So already it's less elevated and there's no danger for Heather or for Veronica. And when Veronica throws up and they were gonna do this whole big prank for on Martha Dunstock and Veronica ruins it Heather Chandler tells her, oh, you're gonna be ruined on Monday. Then Veronica and JD's revenge doesn't really do anything because everyone already knows what happened. It doesn't matter if they. If she grovels to Heather the next day, everyone still knows. So I'm not sure what the motivation is. Whereas in the movie, no one else knows and she's going to grovel to keep her from ever telling anybody, which all while also making what she thinks is the orange juice and milk drink to get her to throw up other things. There's. There are certain small moments in the movie that I think reflect this. What I. What I keep saying, nuance, but it is. It's nuance. Well, multifaceted dimensions of these characters and this story when Heather dies and the school starts fetishizing the suicide note that Veronica wrote. Veronica is so thrown by how everyone is acting about Heather. But she's also seeing positive changes in the school. She's seeing less bullying at first. She's seeing Heather Duke, who used to having eating disorder, had bulimia and was under the thumb of Heather Chandler, terrified of Heather Chandler. She sees her happier and eating and digesting, and she sees some positive results from this, but still has that guilt. And she's sort of processing her own grief and her own guilt with all of this, while also kind of distancing herself by viewing everyone in her school sort of like they're animals in a zoo. And you see her kind of try to get back to her roots with Betty Finn a couple of times. You see her being a genuine friend to Heather McNamara, even to Heather Duke. At the beginning of the movie, you see her relationship with Heather Chandler earlier on. Like they. The way that Veronica and Heather Chandler speak to each other. Pretty college party. It is like friends. Heather Chandler is being a bitch. But Veronica does not come off as scared by her. She's used to her. She describes them as her co workers and their jobs are being popular and shit. And in the musical that doesn't really land because in the musical we start senior year, Veronica is an outsider and she becomes a member of the Heathers in the opening number, beautiful. And she gets three weeks with the Heathers and that's when all the shit goes down. That's when we meet jd, that's when big fun happens. And so she does not have a long history with Heather Chandler. So the line, I just killed my best friend doesn't make any sense. It's not as funny. There's also less. There's less complication to how she feels about this stuff. And you don't see any positive results from Heather's death. You just see the school going insane for her letter. And you see Heather Duke instantly becoming a monster and having no development with her character. Because in the movie, Heather Duke doesn't really become a monster till the third act. She's a meek little, you know, field mouse who is able to blossom. When Heather Chandler dies, she's able to eat. Her eating disorder is cured, as cured as it can be, I guess. And she's able to be happier and more confident. She's still hanging out with Heather McNamara. And she only starts going into the Heather Chandler mode of queen bee when JD Sort of blackmails her into to it. She then ends up enjoying it. But it's not as if she is power hungry and goes for it. The musical kind of paints everything with a very broad stroke. And as I said, this production is definitely an improvement from the last production. And there's a lot of casting that I think helps with that. I think some of the tweaks have really helped with that. Other tweaks I disagree with. I've also, you know, come around a bit on the score. But what I'm realizing is that. That there's. I. I have found that there are two camps of people with Heathers. Those who know the movie, who saw the movie first and have a history with the movie and then see the show, tend to like the show less than those who came to the show first. And I will say, I think as an adaptation, as a musical, Heather's is a pretty solid one. For all the things I said about what it misses from the movie, that's all still true. But in terms of making it into a musical, they don't do a bad job. There's just a lot of stuff that makes me wonder if Heather should even be a musical. Because the movie is this tennis ball covered in barbed wire. You know, it's this lollipop covered in barbed wire. It's sharp and it's mean and it's very cynical, but it's also very stylish and weird. And sometimes it felt like the musical the first time around. And a little bit this time around was almost making fun of the original movie. Which is odd because the movie itself is a comedy and it's very heightened. So a lot of the dialogue is meant to be absurd because it's almost like this warped alternate reality of America while still being very much a realistic depiction of America. Almost like an American junior in the Midwest had a fever dream. One night about their high school. So there's all these realistic details in there. It's all just like one level up. And again, because musical theater is heightened as well, you would think that could make sense, but this heightens it even further and again, goes more into an open hearted, earnest direction, which makes sense for being a musical. I don't think it makes sense for Heather's. So I don't know if anyone else could do a better job than this, because I don't know if this is, you know, something that we should adapt. But a lot of people love it, so who am I to say? But I wanted to ask you guys, like, how did you come to Heathers? Were you a movie person first or a musical person first? Were you a movie person who hated the movie and then saw the show and loved it? Were you a movie person who loved the movie, then saw the show and loved it? Like, if you're a movie person who saw the movie first loved the movie for many years, and then saw the show and loved the show, talk to me. Tell me why you did. Because I've yet to meet anyone that is that way. Maybe it's just that those people keep seeking me out because they know that I'm a movie person who loved the movie and then was not keen on the show. But I don't know, it feels like it could be. Could be larger than that. That's really it. In terms of staging, choreography, there's not really much to say. It's, you know, it gets the job done. Where I was like, oh, my God, that's a brilliant stage picture. That's such a clever device. Mostly I was just like, yeah, this is getting it done. It's fine. I also say my audience. I've heard a lot of horror stories about the audiences at Heather's. My audience was actually very respectful. It was. They applauded and they screamed at all the right moments. There was no insane cheering during inappropriate times. There was a good chunk of laughter. The applause for songs was very encouraging, but it did not go on forever. So I will say that I was very pleased with my crowd. I don't know if I can tell you guys confidently that that's the crowd all the time anymore, but that was at least my crowd. So good for you guys. So hopefully this gives you a better idea of whether you want to see Heather's or not. And if you do, great. If you don't. Okay, that's all I really have to say for you right now. Let's take a quick break and Then we will come back with Ron Fassler, author of the book the Show Goes On. All right, so take five seconds, and then let's meet Ron. Really, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire. Ron Fassler, thank you so much for joining Broadway Breakdown.
- [47:24]
B
Oh, thanks for having me, Matt. It's great to be here.
- [47:27]
A
So tell the listeners a little bit about your book, the Show Goes On. What's the gist? Elevator pitch. But it's a long elevator ride.
- [47:34]
B
Well, all you need is the subtitle, the Show Goes On Broadway, hiring firings and replacements. So basically, it's the first book of its kind in which it's nothing but stories about Broadway legends who have come up the hard way, replacing in a Broadway show, being the understudy, being the swing, being the standby, going up to Boston when you're told, we're gonna fire this actor, can you take over this part in three days? And they do. It's really a love letter to actors and the bravery and heroism, actual heroism. Shows have literally been saved a hundred jobs just because they finally get that right actor when somebody's been fired. And the stories of firings, you may have heard a few of them before, but the thing that makes me really proud is people who read the book and say, I thought I knew the Shirley MacLaine pajama game story. But you had new information and just brought it back to life in such a way that I felt like I was reading it for the first time. And I've also unearthed stories that people simply don't know. And I spoke to a hundred people, actors mostly, but also directors and scenic designers, publicists, just to get these stories in print, on paper, in a book. Old school.
- [48:50]
A
Yeah. Well, that answers my next question, which was. Well, two. Well, my next two questions. You Certainly, sir. The first was, what inspired you to write this book? Then the next question was gonna be, what was your research like for this book? So let's start. Let's just go back to that first one, though. Like, so what inspired. Other than looking around and going, there's no book about this specific subject? Why? Why? Why did this interest you?
- [49:11]
B
Well, I was an actor for the majority of my adult life, and I'm so sorry, Ron. Well, as I like to refer to myself, I'm a recovering actor.
- [49:21]
A
Same.
- [49:21]
B
And ever since, I've. I'VE taken pen to paper and published my first book about eight years ago and have become a full fledged, fully credentialed drama critic here in New York and a member of the Drama Desk organization. And I've been writing and writing and writing and I really feel like this is it. This was my destiny. I was put on this earth to write about the theater. It's been a part of my life since I was a little boy. My first book, up in the Cheap Seats, is about my life as a kid going to the Broadway theater every week the way a kid usually went to the movies or maybe to a ball game. I went to a Broadway show and because it was 50 years ago, the ticket prices were manageable. It was $3 to sit in the last row of a Broadway show. So up in the Cheap Seats is my story of that. Jo and I interviewed a hundred people for that. And then as I've been writing columns on my website that are called Theater Yesterday and Today, where I write about past shows and new shows, I did a series of columns about three years ago that got a lot of attention and it was about replacements and about firings and really very interested in how an actor makes a role their own when it's had the imprint of somebody who's become famous for it, what a Tony for it, you know, gone on to do the movie and you're the actor stuck in the show and in its fourth year. I mean, it's happening right now. We've got so many long running shows on Broadway and I wanted to get into that. And so after writing these columns, I suddenly had this thought in my head, you know, this could be another book. And everybody I said that to, I said, I'm thinking of writing a book, they went, write it, write it. Right? There's never been a book like that. So I realized I was onto something then in terms of your question about research. Well, I mean, that is my. That's my. I always use this quote. It's from the great Winnie Holtzman who wrote Wicked. She says, I love research because it's not writing. And when you think about it, you know, there's nothing scarier than the blank page. But research, oh, you can do that for weeks and months on end. So I'm very fortunate to live in Manhattan because the Lincoln center library is close to my home. I can walk there and that's an invaluable resource. And then for those looking at this on YouTube, you'll see behind me, my library. I have a legitimate theater library behind me. And there's still some stuff you can't really find on the Internet. A good old fashioned book is the best way to go and find it.
- [51:40]
A
Absolutely.
- [51:41]
B
I just adore the process, especially those eureka moments when I find something that I know nobody's really ever read. Some little tiny thing in a gossip column from 19 that puts the piece into the puzzle. And so I just. I love it. I'm passionate and it all comes through in my writing, or so I'm told.
- [51:58]
A
I mean, wonderful. First of all, yes. When video footage of this will be out, whether on YouTube or on Substack, what have you. Yes. Take a look at Ron's library behind him. It's very impressive. It's very orderly, very ornate and impressive. I also.
- [52:11]
B
The painting. There's a painting on the bookcase. And you might think, well, I'm wasting space. But behind that are all of my Blu Rays, my collection of DVD Blu Rays.
- [52:21]
A
There's Method to the Madness. Also, in the spirit of recovering actors, we should say Winnie Holtzman, also famously actor in the movie Jerry Maguire, for those of you who want to be my friend.
- [52:32]
B
Yes. And I will tell you how she got that part, because Winnie's a dear friend. She was. Let's see, she. Oh, Cameron Crowe was in love with My so Called Life. And Winnie had a small part on My so Called Life.
- [52:45]
A
And he went, well, she also created it.
- [52:46]
B
Right, exactly. So he was like, I want that woman who was in. He had no idea. It was the woman who created the series. And then they bonded as writers. And it's quite wonderful.
- [52:57]
A
She has one of my favorite lines in the movie because all those divorced women.
- [53:00]
B
I know which line you're gonna say. Yeah, I know which one.
- [53:03]
A
Don't you usurp me. You did it twice already. I want to say it. Give me my moment. I'm a recovering actor. But for those of you who haven't seen the movie, it's these groups of divorced women. All the scenes are improvised. And it's towards the end and she's holding this little tissue and they go, what's wrong? She goes, I'm sorry. She's. These stupid holidays. They always make me feel more and more divorced. I mean, it's the first thing. And then. And then the constant chocolate eating.
- [53:27]
B
It's the song and the constant chocolate eating.
- [53:30]
A
Yeah. With the songs and the constant chocolate eating. Like, this woman is a genius. Yeah. So what I was interesting to me about the book was so Replacements, I think, because in the. In the subtitle, you see firings in There people think replacements like, oh, you know, someone who comes in and replaces at the last minute out of town or in rehearsals for a show, which is, which is in the book. But also you do pay a lot of respect to a lot of actors who just replaced in long runs of shows, some more attention grabbing than others. And I thought that was really wonderful. Something that was also interesting was for a lot of the contentious replacements, or let's call it what it is, a firing, you do include a lot of different perspectives and sort of like a Rashomon situation. The one that comes to mind is Henry Goodman replacing Nathan Lane in the Producers, which was a combination of a high profile show, a high profile star, the very first replacement, and a case where it was a very talented, esteemed actor who on paper could either not make sense or make all the sense in the world, depending on how it resulted. And then what happened, happened. And getting multiple perspectives during the process after the fact, people looking back on the fact and talking about it. And I thought that was very fair to all parties.
- [54:46]
B
Yeah, that was a swing and a miss. And I did talk to everybody involved with it, you know, Brad, Oscar and Roger Bart and Stephen Weber, who was playing opposite Henry Goodman when they were replacing Nathan and Matthew. I also go into when Richard Dreyfuss took over the role of Max in London.
- [55:04]
A
You sure did.
- [55:05]
B
Never even got to opening night. It's quite a section on the Producers, which was one of those shows that replacing was a very difficult thing. I mean, Phantom of the opera, not difficult. 35 years, all those guys, it wasn't never a problem. But Producers was very specific, comedic talents required and very often the combinations were not. And no one ever clicked like Nathan and Matthew. They couldn't. I mean, it was a look. We had Hugh Jackman sell out the Music man for a solid year. You couldn't get a ticket. But when his contract was up, they chose to close the show rather than replace him.
- [55:43]
A
Well, I think part of it is tying it into the star. Right. Because with Phantom, you write in Phantom that there was concern when Michael Crawford was leaving. Like, how will Phantom be able to run without him? And I remember when, I remember when Wicked first opened, the thinking was, when Adina and Kristen leave, will the show continue succeeding? And what Phantom and Wicked were able to do was elevate their star's profile, but be able to become their own things, which the Producers was never really able to do.
- [56:14]
B
No. And, you know, certain actors get, you know, just bad luck. John Stamos took over in how to Succeed. That was the production that Matthew Broderick died, went into nine after Antonio Banderas died, you know, and other actors have had. It's not even their fault. It's just you realize they were the muscle of that production, the Matthew Brodericks and the Antonio Banderas of this world. And. And sometimes people are irreplaceable. I go into the people who replaced Harvey, and I go into so many of these different eras, and there were eras when it really was the thing to replace. When David Merrick had his seven dollies, they were all major stars and all the women who played Mame. And I go into all of that. And then, of course, I go into some of the great war stories, the famous Patti LuPone and Glenn Close fight with a little bit of Faye Dunaway on the end. So for those of you who are listening, who love theater, these stories, even though you think you may know them, there's something to be said for good, solid journalistic research and shoe leather and pounding the pavements and getting the stories from people. And in fact, I opened the book with a recent brouhaha because I really wanted to grab my readers. I tell the story of Beanie Feldstein and Lea Michele in Funny Girl, one of the big replacement stories of this century or any other. And I could have opened the book with some great Mary Martin Ethel Merman story. But, you know, I figured. I figured everybody knows Beanie Felstein and Lea Michel now. Let's play with that. It's still in the zeitgeist. It only happened three years ago, and that was a great one to bring back.
- [57:47]
A
It's still a potent story, and it is a good one. So I think that was wise to open the book with that. The book is over 400 pages with many, many stories. So I would love to ask. And it will not be spoiling the book because there are just so many in there.
- [58:01]
B
Yeah.
- [58:01]
A
Would you regale our listeners with a story that you cover in the book that you are very excited to share with with readers?
- [58:10]
B
You know, I've done a number of these podcasts, and I. I told kind of the same story. So maybe for tonight I'll tell one that, you know, borders on, like I said earlier, on the heroic. And. And that's the story. She did it twice. Liza Minnelli stepped into Chicago. And a lot of people probably know this. Not the Chicago that's been running on Broadway for the last 30 years, but the original Chicago in 1975, which starred Gwen Verdon and Chita Rivera and Jerry Orbach. And you hear those three names and you think, my God, I mean, how did people even get tickets? It was not a sellout. It didn't even get that great reviews. And it was totally usurped within a two or three week period by a little show called the Chorus Line that opened on Broadway. It had moved up from downtown and took the entire theater world by storm. And there's Gwen Verdon and Chita Varengarbach just going, where's our audience? They're all over at the Shubert. Gwen Verdon had a mishap and was going to have to miss the show. And it was actually touch and go whether they could continue or not. Would people see an understudy with Cheetah and Jerry Trouble? And Fred, Ed called his dear friend Liza Minnelli just to get some solace, basically. And she said, well, well, Fred, I'll do it. And he goes, what do you mean? She goes, I'll come in, I'll do it. Just give me a little time. And he was like, you really would. She goes to work with Bob Fosse again. I mean, she'd done Cabaret only two years earlier. She'd won the Oscar. It was like.
- [59:39]
A
And Liza with a Z, like, it's. Yeah, all failed.
- [59:42]
B
Oh, my God. Yes. And she was in her prime. And she went in and she said, here's a stipulation, though. Don't put my name on the marquee. Don't even put it in the program. Just have the slip of paper. Just have the announcement before the curtain. And she did this, you can say, well, she was being egoless. She was also protecting herself a little bit. You know, what if she failed? Well, she didn't fail. She was amazing in it. And that first night when that theater was sitting there waiting for the show, and they announced tonight the role usually played by Gwen Verdon. Oh, you're the holiday. I was gonna say. It will be played by Liza Vanilla. The place went insane. Even though a lot of those people in the audience fully well knew that it was Liza Vitali that night. People knew Gwen Verdon had gotten sick. And so she did it. She did it for a. And then there was a perception out there that Chicago was a hit, that it was a tough ticket. Yes, it was a tough ticket. You couldn't get one for the three weeks Liza Minnelli was in it. But once she left, it helped that show to. To be able to run for another year, a full year. It was a two year run and then a full year on The Road. So she made it a hit. And then flash forward about 20 years later and Julie Andrews is having terrible difficulty doing Victor Victoria on Broadway and her voice is just. And that show was not doing well, but yet she was selling tickets even though, you know, they still didn't know if they were gonna be a profit making show. But boy, if she went out of the show, there was just simply no show. It would fold. And again, a hundred people out of work and they called Liza Minnelli. They remembered she had done it for Gwen and would she? Possibly. And at this point, you know, Liza had just come off a tour. She was tired. But she really is that great trooper. She's really got that grease paint in her blood. And she stepped forward and she did the show for a month and sold it out. And her fans just came and they just adore her. And this is why, you know, there's just so much love for this woman as a true theater person and someone who will step in and help just as a friend. And I just found that very touching. In fact, when she. I found out this little tiny bit of information that when she left Chicago, she threw a party for everybody. And Fred Ed gave her a present which was a gold necklace. And he had taken a little lifesaver and he'd had it made in gold. He'd covered a lifesaver in gold and gave it to her.
- [62:04]
A
Well, that's wonderful. That's adorable. I feel like with replacements there's always this stigma against it where it's like if you are a name or if you have a Tony, replacing is a step down in your career. But so many amazing people have done it over decades and decades. Yeah, they have. And I feel like people keep forgetting that.
- [62:26]
B
Well, yeah, a guy like John Cullum is replaced in many shows. And that comes off a story where he was approached to replace Len Cario in the original Sweeney Todd and he went, no, I'm John Cullum, I'm not gonna replace. And he just regretted it because George Hearn went on and made a wonderful, wonderful stab at the role. And John Cullen feels like he really made a big mistake.
- [62:48]
A
I mean, for all of us. What I would have given to see John Cullum do Sweeney Dodd. My God.
- [62:54]
B
I know. So I think the stigma's a little off. It. A bigger problem that you bring up, Matt, is actually maybe someone wants to, but they're just afraid of the comparison. You know, Mel Brooks called Billy Crystal and said, would you please go into the Producers now? Billy Crystal is a great choice for Max. And he went, no, I don't think so, Mel. I really don't want to be, like, you know, the fifth guy to do it. You'll be the 12th. It didn't hit, so Billy never played the part. But, you know, I love replacements. I mean, I'm very curious. I may go back and see purpose again because latonya Jackson's out. She's been replaced by Brenda Presley, who is a marvelous actress who I saw in New Jersey do A Raisin in the sun and blew my mind. And I think she'd be great. And that's a show you really warrant seeing twice.
- [63:39]
A
Yeah.
- [63:40]
B
I may go back and see John Proctor as the villain. Cause Sadie Sink is out. I understand her replacement, whose name isn't coming to me. So, yeah, I'm all in favor of it. I even take a part in my book. Cause I've had these 50 years of theater going under my belt to discuss certain replacements I saw and how fantastic they were. I saw Ann Miller as Mame on Broadway, and I didn't get to see Angela Lansbury. I was too little at that time. But by the time I was 12 and it had been running for three years, I went to see it with all the energy and enthusiasm of somebody who'd never seen Mame before. And I got to see Ann Miller, and she was incredible. And I talked to people who were in the show and who just loved her. Annie, as everybody called her. They even worked in a tap dance number for her. The original choreographer, Anna White, came back. And the number in the second act. That's how young I feel. Perfect for a tap break. And she did not fail. Did not fail.
- [64:33]
A
It was true. Yeah, well, when you know you've got butter on stage, you get cooking, right? You're not gonna leave it standing there. Not gonna leave it standing there in the fridge. My God.
- [64:40]
B
What?
- [64:40]
A
Yeah. Can you tell me about some. So what would you say is. Outside of Paddy and no Sunset, what would you say was another major, contentious Broadway firing? That sort of Broadway lore?
- [64:52]
B
Well, I mean, I talk about a very sad situation when they did a revival of La Casa Foll back in the early 2000s that had starred Gary beach and Danny Davis. Danny Davis was giving a great performance and he got great reviews, but he was a very difficult, difficult person. And he was making it miserable for everybody. And they did not want to fire him. They really. They liked his work, but they could not handle his attitude. And he was probably shocked when they said to him one day, don't come back on Monday. The understudy went on for a while while they readied Robert Goulet. And Robert Goulet stepped in and was the exact opposite. He was just. Gary beach called him my knight in shining armor. He just came in and rescued the. And it's an absolutely beautiful story. It doesn't happen very often that someone's fired like that. It didn't happen often for somebody like Beanie Feldstein. I mean, believe it or not, that cast recording of that production of Funny Girl is the only cast recording there's ever been that does not have the person who was in the opening night performance.
- [66:01]
A
This is true. Yeah.
- [66:03]
B
I mean, yes. I mean, there's been other times we've.
- [66:05]
A
Had replacement recordings as well, but there's been an original cast before it. Like, there's a Pearl Bailey, but there's also a Carol Channing in Dolly, Vanessa Williams and a Cheetah Spider Woman. This is a case where there's no Beanie Funny Girl. It's just the Leah now.
- [66:17]
B
In fact, it's called the new Broadway cast recording. They do not call it the original Broadway cast recording. They can't.
- [66:23]
A
It's not. They sure can't.
- [66:25]
B
But that's an ignominious thing to have on your. As a factoid about yourself. Gee, I was the one who didn't get to be in the original cast recording because I didn't last long enough in the show.
- [66:35]
A
After a while, a battle scar just becomes an anecdote. You have to listen. You got more life to live, Beanie.
- [66:42]
B
Every great actor and not so great actor, but every great actor's been fired. Robert De Niro, Katharine Hepburn, you could just go down the list. And in fact, I didn't quite know the story that would end my book because, I mean, I kept thinking, gee, which one am I gonna leave till last? And as I got to the end, I got a little scared. I was like, well, how am I gonna end the book? And then it came to me and I realized, ron, you have your own firing story, and it's a doozy. And I thought to myself, well, wait a minute. I mean, do you really have the right. In a 400 page book where you've been talking about Pearl Bailey and Hugh Jackman, all these giants, to include yourself, I was like, you know what? I think my readers will kind of get to know me through the book because I'm in the book. Cause I'm talking about so many of these performances that I personally saw. And you get my opinions. And it's not. This is Not a cut and dry doctoral.
- [67:32]
A
Yeah, no. You have a lot of your memory sprinkled in there.
- [67:35]
B
Very, very much so. So I figured I'm gonna end with this story. And sure enough, so many people have said to me, ron, the last story, the last firing story. And it really, like I said, it's a doozy. And it was great. And I'd never really told it before, so that was great, great fun. Yeah. And I'm hard at work on another book because I just want to keep telling stories about the theater. And as I say, I love the research. And running to the next book is gonna be all about really what it takes to succeed on Broadway by nature, by virtue of showing the history of certain shows that were absolute colossal failures out of town and by the time they came to New York were smash hits. Camelot is one of them. Billy Joel's Movin Out. I mean, wait until you read like the out of town reviews for these shows. You would think it's never gonna happen. But boy, when the smart minds get to work, it's kind of amazing. I'm also gonna talk about. About certain failures that are truly in a class by themselves. The shows that actually open and have previews and never make their opening night, the plug is literally pulled before the critics come to see it. It hasn't really happened on Broadway in about 15 years. The last one was a play that the late Farrah Fawcett starred in called Bobby Bolan. And, you know, the producers just one night just got together and went, we are insane to let the critics come and destroy us. Just close it. And David Merrick famously closed the musical version of Breakfast at Tiffany's with then massive television stars. Mary Tyler Moore fresh off the Dick Van Dyke show and Richard Chamberlain, fresh off Dr. Kildare had an advanced sale of like $2 million. And David Merrick returned, earned the money. He just said, I'm not gonna let anybody come and I won't do it. He called it his Bay of Pigs. And so there's a lot of shows like this and they're really fun to write about. So the book will be a lot about success, it'll be a lot about failure, but they'll all be interesting stories about Broadway and about people you're gonna wanna read about.
- [69:43]
A
I look forward to it. One more question with the show goes on and then a question related to the show goes on. So with show goes on, was there anything that you came upon in your research? Because you have. You're a, you know, fountain of knowledge. But is there anything in your research that surprised you? That something maybe you. You didn't know nugget here or there? Yeah, any, any one or two you are willing to share with us that surprised you?
- [70:06]
B
Yeah, my, my favorite one was. I forget I found it by accident. It was about the time when Richard Burton was playing Hamlet on Broadway and I mean this was unbelievable. You could not get a ticket to see Richard Burton and Hamlet Hamilton. The year was 1964. Cleopatra had opened in 63 and Elizabeth Taylor finally got out of their divorces and got married. They were Dick and Liz and just 46th street in front of the lunt Fontaine. It was worse than Hamilton at its height. I mean you couldn't. It was. People were just to get a glimpse of Elizabeth Taylor and maybe Richard Burton. Anyway, big, big show and Richard Burton, you know, famous, you know, boozer and Richard Burton never missed shows. He was very professional even if he was drinking all during the show he went on but he had some kind of terrible tonsil abscess and they called his understudy on to go on at the last minute. And I thought well, let me see what kind of story that. This story had such legs, I can't even begin to tell you. And then I'm having lunch with a friend, casually goes wait a minute, that actor's name was Robert Burr. I think I know his daughter Betsy. Next thing I know I'm on the phone with Betsy who is telling me oh my God, I was a nine year old girl. Wait till you hear. And the stories, the stories, the stories. I found a great interview with him in his hometown newspaper in New Jersey. You know, that's the other thing. I just adore reading old newspaper articles and I love going to the library where you actually hold them in your hands. The yellowed, they're crumbled in your hands. Hope they get to digitize this stuff because some of the things I was holding were only 60 years old. But you know, know, time takes its toll on.
- [71:41]
A
On newspaper and all of us really.
- [71:44]
B
And what was your other question?
- [71:45]
A
You said the other question I was gonna ask was what was a replacement casting? You saw that surprised you in a positive way where maybe you went in a little skeptical or, or open minded and maybe a little skeptical and walked out going I gotta hand it to this person. They nailed it.
- [72:00]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean it happens a lot. I do tell a story about an actor named Cliff Gorman. He was the original Emory in Boyz in Book the and after that he played Lenny Bruce on Broadway in a play called Lenny and He took the town by storm. He won the Tony. I saw this play, it was a phenomenal performance. And then I read he's leaving the show and he's going to be replaced by a guy named Sandy Barron. Well, I used to love to watch television when I was a kid and Sandy Baron was on all the sitcoms he did, like the Mike Douglas show and the Merv Griffin Show. He was a stand up, I thought, hmm, stand up comedy, you know, maybe this. So I decided to buy a ticket and see Sandy Baron. Now mind you, Cliff Gorman blew my mind. I was not expecting him. And here's the thing. Sandy Baron was every bit as good as Cliff Gorman. I mean, when you've got a great part and you've got a handle on it, you can go in and do the same miraculous thing. You really can. You know, I mean, I saw Bette Midler play Dolly, I saw Bernadette, I saw Carol Lee, I saw Betty Buckley, I saw Pearl Bailey, I saw Ethel Mermaid. And you know, I mean, you can these parts. I mean, why do you think revivals are always happening? Because, you know, Death of a Salesman is always going to be attractive to someone. Streetcar Named Desire is always going to be attractive to someone, but that was the specific time. And I was young, I was only 14 years old when I saw the Cliff Gorman Sandy Baron thing. And I went, my God, it was like, it really was a light bulb moment where I went and boy, another actor can really be just as good, if not better. And you know, I wanted to be an actor. So all of those things that I was learning, the education I got from seeing so much theater at a young age was just irreplaceable. I mean, you can't put a dollar value on it, but we can't put.
- [73:50]
A
A dollar value on your book. The show goes on. Which can you tell the listeners where they can find the show goes on?
- [73:56]
B
You can buy it directly on my website, ronfassler.org or just Google show goes on and that's where you'll get it. You cannot buy it on Amazon. I'm not giving them my business. And I'm proudly making money the old fashioned way all by myself. And I don't need Jeff Bezos to help me sell the book.
- [74:13]
A
We appreciate that.
- [74:15]
B
Yeah. And it's $32 and a little bit of shipping and trust me, 400 pages, it'll be on your shelf out part of your library. And I'm also happy to say I'm finally going to have the email ebook next week. And after that I'm gonna go in the studio and record the audiobook. I can't tell you how many people have told me, Ron, I can't wait to read it. But I don't read books, so tell me when the audio's out.
- [74:37]
A
Well, I'll tell you this, you might have some listeners for that as well because this is a podcast that's been known for its long form content in the past and the listeners have been conditioned to enjoy the long listens on car rides, train rides, work trips.
- [74:51]
B
Yeah, and I'm telling these stories off the top of my head, believe me, the words I choose and the way I write in the book. Very elegan, very stylish, very funny. Yeah, I can't wait to read it out loud.
- [75:02]
A
Yeah, I can confirm, you guys, we're talking over 400 pages worth of stories and names and Broadway shows. There's just, it's overflowing. So I definitely recommend that you go out and take a look for it. The show goes on by Ron Fassler. Ron, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it.
- [75:17]
B
Thanks Matt. Had a great time.
- [75:18]
A
We had a great time with you. Thank you so much, Ron. All righty, that's gonna do it for us here at Broadway Breakdown. Let's all thank Ron Fassler for giving us a very fun interview. And once again you can find his book. The show goes on everywhere except Amazon. If you missed us, show us some love by giving us a nice 5 star rating or a little review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It helps with the algorithm and hopefully will finally get us on that official press list for next season. If you haven't yet, make sure to join the Broadway Breakdown Discord Channel to chat with over 300 fellow listeners about the podcast theater news. Or you can share your own accomplishments and fun stories. It's a really great place. If you want more Broadway Breakdown content, you can join our substack where there will be exclusive articles and reviews such as one coming up for Ginger Twinsies and then Masquerade after that. Oh, and also do not forget November 14th at Green Room 42. Broadway Breakdown is doing a live musical episode for your enjoyment. Me, a three piece band, some guest artists and Sally Bol. What more could ya want? Join us next week for part one of our Dreamgirls deep dive with star of a Strange Loop and only Murders in the building, Jason vc. Woohoo. Let's see, I'm thinking today for our diva since she was such an MVP in this new production of Heather's we're gonna close out with Ms. MacKenzie Kurtz. So that's that, I guess. Enough of my yapping. Let's get on with it. We'll see you guys next week. Take it away, Mackenzie. Cassandra.