Matt Reviews: KISS OF THE SPIDERWOMAN (2025) w/ Ali Gordon

Summary

Broadway Breakdown Episode: Matt Reviews: KISS OF THE SPIDERWOMAN (2025) w/ Ali Gordon Release Date: November 6, 2025 Host: Matt Koplik | Guest: Ali Gordon

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Episode Overview

Matt and returning “podmother” Ali Gordon dive deep into Bill Condon’s 2025 film adaptation of Kiss of the Spider Woman—a conversation ranging from Broadway history and queer representation, to the messy legacy of the source material and how the new film stacks up as both drama and musical. The episode also features a heartfelt segment about Ali's debut novel, We Have Reached the End of Our Show, drawing parallels to the themes in Kiss of the Spider Woman.

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Main Discussion Points

1. Personal Histories with Kiss of the Spider Woman (03:09–12:49)

• Ali’s Introduction:

  • Long-time fan; first saw a large-scale student production at Michigan’s Power Center and fell hard for the messy musical.
  • “Every girl is entitled to one musical that’s kind of a wreck but is her favorite... For me, that is fully Kiss of the Spider Woman.” —Ali (03:19)

• Matt’s Introduction:

  • Familial connection to Chita Rivera; initial interest came from curiosity about Rivera and later the album and Brent Carver’s performance.
  • “Whoever this waif of a man named Brent Carver is... This is the role I want to play.” —Matt (05:42)

• Shared memory lane: Both recall watching the pro-shot at the Lincoln Center library (some details fuzzy, some text receipts laughed over).

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2. The Source Material: Book, Movie, and Musical (13:13–23:25)

• Ali breaks down Manuel Puig’s original novel:

  • Unique structure: No quotation marks, dialogue runs in long passages, clinical “footnotes” describing research on homosexuality and psychology.
  • “It’s like overhearing a conversation through a wall... it almost feels like inheriting letters from a family member.” —Ali (15:40)

• Romanticism Across Mediums:

  • Book: Intimate but not overtly romantic.
  • 1985 film: More reserved, with a complex take on queer/trans elements and relationship ambiguity.
  • Musical: Adds tenderness, but “has an amazing score and a really inconsistent book” (03:22).
  • 2025 Movie: “Hardcore went, no, they are now in love and they’re a couple completely.” —Matt (16:43)

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3. Strengths and Flaws of the Original Musical (19:36–22:05)

• Praise for the score (Kander & Ebb) but criticisms of the prison scenes:

  • “The musical has trouble with the prison stuff... The prison is where it all takes place.” —Ali (19:41)
  • Lack of menace and dramatic stakes in staging.
  • Prison songs often “melodramatic and silly”—specific call-out: “I Draw the Line” (21:32).

• The “machismo” depiction of Valentin is challenged:

  • “He comes across quite an asshole in the musical... I was pleased that in this [film] adaptation, they went for more of the route of just like, he’s a revolutionary. He’s a serious guy.” —Ali (22:05)

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4. Context of the 2025 Movie Adaptation (24:55–37:20)

• Bill Condon’s Adaptation Choices:

  • Hews closely to the 1985 movie, not just the stage musical.
  • Trouble setting musical “vocabulary” and cinematic language in the first act: “There’s singing from JLo over the opening credits, then no song for 20-30 minutes.” —Matt (30:51)
  • All fantasy numbers are from one fictitious Aurora film, rather than a series of different movie pastiches as in the show. This limits opportunities for varied musical/dance numbers and JLo’s characterization.

• Impact on JLo/Aurora:

  • “Part of, like, I would have loved to see her in, like, six different wigs. Oh, my God, I would like the movie more just from the wigs.” —Ali (37:20)
  • “It robs JLo of the chance to show different facets of campy fabulousness.” —Matt (43:55)

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5. Cast & Performance Highlights (24:55–33:30)

• Diego Luna (Valentin):

  • Surpassed expectations: “I didn’t hear shit about him before the movie... I was like, damn.”
  • “No one for the first 40 minutes impressed me... but [Luna and Tanațiu] improved immensely.” —Matt (25:37)

• JLo (Aurora):

  • Vocals better than expected (“didn’t sound super autotuned”), solid dance chops (especially when allowed to do “her kind of movement and not Sid Charisse”).
  • Missed opportunity: Needed sharper choreography and direction to maximize her strengths.

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6. Critique of the Movie Musical Form & Execution (26:37–47:43)

• Condon’s Direction:

  • Reluctance for non-diegetic musical numbers (songs happening “in real life” instead of just as fantasy/movie-within-movie numbers) echoes choices in Dreamgirls.
  • “With a movie musical, you have to establish it’s a musical immediately... tell us in the first 10 minutes what the vocabulary will be.” —Matt (30:10)
  • Numbers (like Where You Are and Gimme Love) generally not shot or staged inventively; choreography, costumes, and tone sometimes mismatched.

• Score Issues:

  • Dropping some of the show’s best numbers (“Day After That” among others), truncating Kander & Ebb’s vision.
  • “If you watched the film and didn’t know the show, you’d think it was a terrible Kander & Ebb score—which makes me sad because I love the score.” —Ali (32:12)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “All the threats with Molina are incredibly heavy handed... It’s effective the first time you see that in a Player or a movie. But after like the 40th, you’re like, this is the well we keep coming back to.” —Matt (20:50)
• “When you have a star and the number’s about the star... you work for the fucking star.” —Matt, discussing JLo’s choreography and director responsibility (33:28)
• “I’m not a JLo hater, and I’m not a JLo stan. I’m just sort of like, JLo exists in the world.” —Ali (34:52)
• “For me, this movie is kind of just nothing. It’s not compelling enough as a drama to stand up to the ’80s film... It just does not know how to do either.” —Matt (69:13)

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Key Segment Timestamps

• Ali’s Introduction to Spider Woman: 03:09–04:39
• Book Structure & Adaptation Differences: 12:49–16:43
• Romantic Dynamics Across Adaptations: 16:43–19:36
• Musical’s Prison Scenes Critique: 19:36–22:05
• Discussion of 2025 Movie—Cast, Direction, Musical Choices: 24:55–38:30
• Movie Musical Critique/Bigger Picture: 26:37–38:30, 47:15–58:51
• Transness of Molina & Representation: 58:51–60:15
• Final Movie Verdicts: 69:13–70:37

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Ali's Novel: We Have Reached the End of Our Show (75:55–90:07)

• Overview: End-of-the-world road trip, three main characters (Josie, Leezy, Gabe), meditations on death, caretaking, and managing trauma.
• Themes: Coping mechanisms, family, queer relationships, honest (not idealized) portraits of illness and sexuality.
• “It is a very beautifully written book. If you guys are a fan of podmother, you’ll be a fan of this.” —Matt (90:08)

Bookshop.org listing for Ali’s novel

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Final Thoughts

• The 2025 Kiss of the Spider Woman film is a slick, well-produced entry with standout moments and strong performances, but its lack of risk, reduction of musical invention, and indecisive tone leave it in the muddled middle: neither a must-see nor a disaster.
• Fans are encouraged to revisit the original cast recording, the stage show, and explore the source novel.

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Closing Diva: Cheetah Rivera, as requested (92:02)

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For More

• Subscribe to Broadway Breakdown on Substack
• Follow Matt and Ali: @mykoplik (Matt) | @missalicenutting (Ali)

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End of Summary.

Transcript

[Ali Gordon]

And the moon grows dimmer at the tides no ebb and her black be smile and you're aching to move but you're caught in the.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address. Broadway. You are not confused. I am indeed your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. I just have a very sexy laryngitis voice today. With us today is a woman. She. You might name a woman. Name a woman for a dollar. Name a woman. You might have heard that she wrote a book, her debut novel. We have reached the end of our show. I'm surprised. I did not know she knew how to write or read, but it's a shocking thing. Even so, you mostly know her as Podmother of Broadway Breakdown. She's coming on to talk about her book, but also to talk about the new movie musical version of Kiss of the Spider Woman. So please welcome back podmother, my favorite gay man, Ally Gordon.

[Ali Gordon]

Thank you so much. That was the perfect intro.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you.

[Ali Gordon]

And also, I love Kiss the Spider Woman so much.

[Matt Koplik]

You really. Okay, so let's just jump into it because we're going to. We do want to talk about the book. We don't have a lot of time. Full disclosure, guys, I do have laryngitis. I am recording a 22 part episode after this. So, like, Ally and I have a lot to talk about.

[Ali Gordon]

We're going. And, and also my clarion voice is feeling a little raspy today. I also have a cold. I have. I don't have, like, laryngitis because, like, Matt, like, needs to one up me on everything. I just have sort of. Just like a regular sort of cold. You know what I mean?

[Matt Koplik]

But Ali, there's only. There's only one way. Well, two ways in which you. One up me. One is your very, very thick hair.

[Ali Gordon]

That you have to care.

[Matt Koplik]

No, you know, you got thicker hair like ice could not get through your hair. And I mean both the substance and group.

[Ali Gordon]

And also cocaine.

[Matt Koplik]

And also cocaine. You know, your hair does look like it's on cocaine. It's just like, don't trust me. But also you have a rack that I just can't compete with.

[Ali Gordon]

Oh, thank you so much. And again, I do want to just. I feel like this comes up every podcast, but it's important to me.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, maybe I should just say when Allie inscribed her book to me, she wrote her little Autograph. On the inside of the book, she wrote, matt from me and my, in capital letters, huge tits, heart.

[Ali Gordon]

That's so perfect.

[Matt Koplik]

It was perfect. I laughed and then I cried, and it was beautiful. But, okay. Kiss of the Spider Woman. Ally, what is your introduction to this piece?

[Ali Gordon]

Okay, so I feel like we've probably mentioned it before on the podcast. I have, like, loved Kiss the Spider man for a very long time. I think the musical is sort of a wreck, but I adore it. Like, I always say, like, every girl is entitled to one musical that's kind of a wreck. But, like, is, like, her favorite musical. And, like, for me, that is, like, fully Kiss of the Spider Woman. I think Kiss the Spider Woman has an amazing score and a really inconsistent book. It kind of doesn't know what it wants to be, but I'm so moved by the sum of its parts. Like, the first time I saw it was. I saw a student production in college. I saw, like, a. There was, like, a student group. There was, like, a big student group at Michigan that was called Musket, and they did, like, huge shows in, like, the biggest stage, which was called the Power Center. So there was tons of budget and things. And, like, this is kind of where, like, student directors go to, like, dream big. And they did this production of Kiss the Spider Woman. And I. I, like, loved it. I saw the show and then came back the next day and saw it again because I was like, what did I just watch? So I really love Kiss of the Spider Woman, but the more that I've lived with it and the more that I've loved it, the more I'm like, this show is kind of not a great show. It might even be my second favorite musical behind Sweeney Todd, which is a perfect show. So I kind of can't. I can't justify why I love it so much, because I know that it has problems, but I really love it.

[Matt Koplik]

I love that, like, your. It's not great, but I love it. Show is Kiss the Spider Woman. For, like, most of us, it's like Diana. It's Carrie.

[Ali Gordon]

I mean, Kiss the Spider and Diana have so much in common. They kind of do beautiful women in black dresses.

[Matt Koplik]

Songs where maybe there shouldn't be songs.

[Ali Gordon]

Songs where maybe there shouldn't be songs. Sequences.

[Matt Koplik]

I always knew of Kiss of the Spider Woman. I never knew what it was actually about. Cheetah Rivera is very big in my family. She was a family friend. I never personally knew her, but, like, she was a client of my grandfathers.

[Ali Gordon]

Okay, cool.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I know. When he died. My grandma got flowers from Cheetah. But so anything Cheetah Rivera has ever done in her career, as far as the complex are concerned, like, the show could be bad. Cheetah is never bad.

[Ali Gordon]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So, like, that was how they feel about Boss or. But so I always knew I was Spider Woman. I think I finally listened to the album our senior year of high school, I want to say, because I had finally gotten into, like, what the premise was. And I started listening to the album more and I was like, Whoever this waif of a man named Brent Carver is playing this bleeding pulse of a character named Melina, this is the role I want to play.

[Ali Gordon]

I mean, it's. Have you. Have you gotten a chance to watch it at, like, Lincoln center or like, even like a quote unquote slime tutorial?

[Matt Koplik]

Alexandra Elizabeth Gordon.

[Ali Gordon]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Not only. Not only did I watch it at Lincoln center library, I watched it with you.

[Ali Gordon]

Oh, good. Wait, why? We watched it together.

[Matt Koplik]

Do you not remember this?

[Ali Gordon]

Was it a pod or were we just, like.

[Matt Koplik]

This was in college. We were just. We went.

[Ali Gordon]

That's what I wanted to know.

[Matt Koplik]

We went. I. Oh, my God.

[Ali Gordon]

I believe. I can fully believe this to be true. Like, when you said that, I wasn't shocked to hear it. I just don't remember.

[Matt Koplik]

I still have. Somewhere on my phone is a saved text from you because I had said something to. To you during lunch after the fact. That was so, like, off the cuff. We were sort of talking about the show and all the ways it was done, and you sent me a text later that day. I was like, why would you send this to me? And you said you sent this. This is what a lot of which is foreshadowing for how listeners are on the podcast when they will write something on the Discord or they'll write it to me in a DM on Instagram. I'm like, why would you send me something so foul? And they're like, you said, you said this. You like, you said this on the Angels in America episode. Like, I did.

[Ali Gordon]

That's so funny. Is it too foul to say on the punch?

[Matt Koplik]

No, no, it's just. It's just shallow. It's a 19 year old shallow thing to say. I was talking about Anthony Crivello, who wears a lot of tank tops in the shower or wife beaters, whatever. And I had said to you at one point, like, due to the lighting and the camera angle, I was like, oh, for a minute I thought he had like a lot of back hair. And I realized it was Just freckles. And I found him hot again. And you texted me that. I'm like, that's a really mean thing to say. And you're like, no, you said.

[Ali Gordon]

You said that. That's so funny. And also, I would never say that, because I like when men are hairy.

[Matt Koplik]

I like hairy men, too. And listen, I. I was 19. I was very particular about where hair should be. I'm much less so now as I've experienced more of the world. I like many different kinds of bodies. I won't say all bodies, but many more different kinds of bodies than when I was 19. I also had not been naked with a man yet at 19, so I was very judgmental of how men looked.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah. And sounded.

[Matt Koplik]

And sounded. Yes. But so we. I was gonna bring that up about how you and I went to the library together on a flashlight.

[Ali Gordon]

I mean, I have a horrible memory. I'm learning, so.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry. Was this freshman year at Michigan that they did Spider Woman?

[Ali Gordon]

It was early, so it was no later than sophomore year. It was either freshman or sophomore year because.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it was. It was either our summer.

[Ali Gordon]

It's like, that's the summer following that or something.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I think it was either it was either the summer after freshman year, or it might have been. Well, muskets in the spring. That's when they do the show. Because part of me is also like, could it have possibly been winter break of sophomore year?

[Ali Gordon]

No, I think it must have been the summer of sophomore year. That's my guess now.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, that makes sense. I. I was in the city on an internship with MTI that summer, so we. I would have been around, but, yes, we. That was actually. That was my second viewing at Lake and Center Library ever. First time with you, though. Yes, but. So I also watched the show with you, and I was like, huh? This show is weird.

[Ali Gordon]

It is weird.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. I always find it. I find it effective, but it is weird. And you're right. I do think it has a lot of tonal inconsistencies.

[Ali Gordon]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I, I. My hot take. So you have a hot take about the. About the book by Terence McNally. I'm gonna support it a little bit just because in a few weeks, I'll be doing my review on Ragtime, and that is where I will be kind of undermining Terrence McNally's libretto. So I'm.

[Ali Gordon]

I also. Well, I'll clarify. I don't want to, like, undermine. I just think that the show can't decide what it is tonally.

[Matt Koplik]

No. Ali. Shit on the Grave of a dead man. Please do it right here, right now.

[Ali Gordon]

God. If you insist.

[Matt Koplik]

I want Tom Kurdahy to know what you think of his husband. Stop. I love love. Listen, I have a almost three hour episode about love, valor, compassion. Guys, you can hear me wax poetic about that bullshit of just like how much I love that show. And I do enjoy McNally as a writer and actually I do think he's possibly a better librettist than playwright. Just in terms of structure. I think he structured Spider Woman really well. He structures ragtime well. Ragtime. I more have issues with timeline and also tone. But that's also a 90s thing. The 90s are an interesting decade for American musicals because especially like Spider Woman had a very long development, right? It was, I think they tried to develop it at SUNY Purchase in 1990. It famously bombed. They then taken.

[Ali Gordon]

It also was like reviewed there, which they were furious about. And it was sort of like inappropriate to do so because they were like, this is not even an out of town production.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, they're like, this is the workshop. But Frank Rich's criteria was, you're charging Broadway prices for this and it's Broadway talent involved. Like, no, we're gonna come see it. And I'm like, the talent thing is not where the argument is for me. It's like, oh, if they're charging the same ticket prices like Miss Saigon at the Broadway, then yes, by all means, go to SUNY Purchase and do that.

[Ali Gordon]

It's a show. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

If it's a workshop, let your audiences pay for a workshop, not for a full blown production. But anywho, between the SUNY Purchase and the Broadway premiere, Bill Clinton became president and there became a new attitude in America of like, ease and not just like optimism, but sort of like, we're gonna be good. Like, we. He got us out of the national debt. We, you know, the country as a whole was sort of like, oh, it's the end of history. That's why for the first three seasons of Sex and the City, it's so like, ugh, there's nothing worse than being a woman who's single. You're such a pariah. And then the rest of the world is like, I can think of something that's worse than a single woman. But, you know, like, that's sort of like where ragtime is at. And we talked about this with Angels in America, of when Angels in America was being written, when it was getting workshopped. And then when it finally came, it was three different American presidents. And so the tone of each production changed. So with Spider Woman, it's sort of this. The boldness is just the fact that Melina exists as a homosexual, and so it leans more into an emotional component with him and actually shies away from the transness that is underlying in what I imagine is the novel, which you know much better than I do.

[Ali Gordon]

Yes, but.

[Matt Koplik]

But is quite prominent in the 80s film, I have now discovered, because I watched. I watched the 80s film the Day after I watched this new movie musical. And I will say, interesting. A lot of Bill Condon's decisions for this movie make more sense to me. Not that I agree with them, but that I get now why he did what he did. Because my hot take is Bill Condon did not adapt the stage musical Kisses of the Spider Woman. Bill Condon made a remake of the 80s movie, and then where there were reenactments in the 80s movie is where he put in Spider Woman songs.

[Ali Gordon]

Interesting. Okay, So I haven't seen the 80s movie in a while because it's hot. I'm not crazy about it, I think. I don't. I'm not like, oh, it's horrible. I'm just like. It's just not something that, like, calls to me being like, I really should rewatch it. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed with it.

[Matt Koplik]

It's not exciting. It's weirder. I think it actually might be weirder than the musical because, well, the book.

[Ali Gordon]

Is super, super, super weird. That's what I want to, like, say for people. The book is really innovative and shocking and exciting. I have, like, if you want a difficult read, you should read Kiss the Spider Woman. I'm not saying difficult because you're like, oh, the subject matter is so difficult. It is literally written in a way that I've maybe never seen books written like this before. I'm gonna. I pulled out my copy because I want people to see. There are no quotation marks and there are no descriptors, right? So it's not like, blah, blah, blah said or like, blah, blah, blah, paste to the other side of the room and da, da, da, or first person, I said, he said, whatever. It's written like this. So you can see that there are markers for where new dialogue starts. But it never says who's talking first. And this will go on for pages and pages and pages. But then there are. What are these called? Footnotes. My God. Sorry. So, like, there is a page of the footnote, right? You can see where the footnote starts there. But sometimes the footnotes will go on for their own sets of pages. And so you are reading the footnotes at the same time as the dialogue, and you're like, okay, I'm having a hard time keeping up, especially because the footnotes are all very clinical.

[Matt Koplik]

So this is how Jesse Green wrote the Mary Rogers biography, by the way.

[Ali Gordon]

Is that true?

[Matt Koplik]

The exact same way. It's so many footnotes that take up half the page.

[Ali Gordon]

I love that. But so the thing that's very interesting about the novel, besides being such an unusual way to write a novel, is that the footnotes are extremely clinical. It's largely a person who. We don't know who they are, as if they were a researcher from another time talking about, like, psychology and homosexuality and the ways people act under duress and political science. And it's almost like a person from the outside trying to make sense of what's going on on the inside. And then on the inside is this, like, unbelievably tender and intimate portrait of these two people who. What I realized as I was reading it is I used to get really frustrated forgetting who was talking or knowing who was talking, because sometimes it's extremely easy where it's like. Like, you know, Valentin will ask a question that's like, I'm just trying to understand people with your. With your proclivities better. And you're like, okay, cool. Obviously, we're. Now I understand who's talking, but sometimes they'll talk for so long that you're like, who's talking to who? They're starting to sound the same. And it actually is, like, kind of beautif. Because it's like this. It's like overhearing a conversation through a wall and wanting to understand better who these people are, watching them kind of, like, fall in love a little. Do you know what I mean?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ali Gordon]

And then being like, wait, when did this happen? They're suddenly so intimate, and it's like. It's like getting. I don't know, it almost feels like inheriting letters from, like, a family member and, like, trying to, like, make sense of their lives and being like, ah, I didn't know you, but now I know you. And I'm getting all these, like, intimate portraits of your life, and. Do you know what I mean? And then at the same time, the clinical footnotes are encroaching on their, like, little personal space. And so sometimes you're angry because you're like, oh, they're in a really good part. They're, like, talking about some emotional stuff. And, like, the footnote would take up half the page of like. Shut up. Shut up. Footnote. Do you know what I mean? It's really very interesting. Okay. It's a lot less overtly, truly romantic as I think, like, some of the further adaptations have. Have skewed most most specifically this most recent adaptation, the most. Most, most romantic.

[Matt Koplik]

This one, Hardcore, went, no, they are now in love and they're a couple completely.

[Ali Gordon]

So, like, the book doesn't really tread that way, but it definitely shows you that they really, really trust each other and have talked for intimate and long hours. And so that it is not purely like one person's a spy and did a bad job doing his job and one person's manipulator and did a bad job doing his job. You know what I mean? It's like, you can tell that there's like something. There is something truly special there.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah. So the book is crazy, but I really think people should read it.

[Matt Koplik]

I would like to read it. It's the last thing I have to do for my Spider Woman. Intense research, especially now that I've seen the 80s film, because it's interesting actually kind of going backwards on this, having seen the new movie, remembering the musical and like rereading the libretto of the musical and seeing what's there and what's not, and then watching the 80s film and seeing how close this movie follows it as well as like the libretto and. And watching sort of the romanticism get scaled back with each iteration as well. Because as we said, like in this version, Molina and Valentine be like, they fall in love with each other. They. When they finally have sex, it is lovemaking. And there's a post finale scene when liberation ensues in Argentina and Valentin gets released from prison and he takes out that red scarf that Molina gave him, kisses it, and goes, we did it, my love. And holds him to the air. And that's the last shot. It's Bill Condon. Loved reading Simon versus The Homo Sapien Agenda. And he was like, I want that for my movie now. Yeah, the musical is less romantic than that, but it's more romantic than the 80s film because Molina does fall very hard in love with Valentin pretty early. And Valentin does not fall in love with Molina, but he does fall into him. He. He cares for him a great deal.

[Ali Gordon]

And when it's clear that it. It is not just, oh, I'm seeing an opportunity to get something that I want and this. This person will do it for me.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ali Gordon]

Because. Because I can tell that they love me. And that is actually a thing that I think the musical does well was. Is like using the moments of introspection and, you know, like the fact that an audience can get into a character's head in a musical. So I think that's excellent. Like, there's a lot of things I really, really like about the adaption adaptation of Kiss of Spider man, the musical. Obviously, my biggest thing is just like, it's so. Well, okay, I feel like we can get into this because then it'll sort of lead into the movie in a way.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ali Gordon]

The musical has some trouble with the prison stuff, which is tough because the prison's where it all takes place.

[Matt Koplik]

There's a lot of fantasies.

[Ali Gordon]

There's a fantasy element to it too, and those moments are excellent. But the. The prison stuff is really kind of silly at times. Like, it does not truly feel dire. There are a couple moments where I feel like it really succeeds. There's like, there's a moment in like one of the over the wall sequences where a guy's trying to escape and they shoot him and you're like, okay, Gabe, damn. Okay, stakes. There's also some, like, there's like one little mini scene where they're trying to like, force some information out of Valentin and so they put everybody into a tiny little cell altogether and like a guy dies while they're in the cell. Again, pretty effective. You're like, oh, damn, stakes. Basically everything else feels a little silly. It's not scary enough. And no offense to these guys who are probably better singer, dancers and actors than I'll ever be, but like, the guys who play the guards are like, kind of doing like musical improv impressions of tough guys. And so, like, they'll come around to threaten them. And I'm like, I've never been threatened in less in my life.

[Matt Koplik]

All the threats with Molina I find to be incredibly heavy handed. And it felt. I felt that way in the movie too. Just like when, like. What did you say, Molina? I said I'm a pathetic little faggot. And like, I know that's effective for some people. It's always effective. Like the first time you see that in a Player movie. But after like the 40th, you're like, this is the. Well, we keep coming back to. And.

[Ali Gordon]

But the movie, at the very least, at the very least, you get to see like, when they're like, okay, this guy was tortured to death, you get to see it. I'm sorry, that doesn't. You don't get to see a man die, but, like, they'll show you a guy who's clearly dead. And you're like, damn, that guy's dead. And like, in the musical, it's so overblown. Do you know what I mean?

[Matt Koplik]

I think there's a similar moment in the musical. It's harder to get realism on stage, and. Which I think actually is to the musical's benefit for the overall arc of the show, of the. Of the fantasy sequences and a lot of the prison scenes. I hear what you mean. I. It never. You're right. It never really feels dangerous in the musical. And I would argue, I think, that a lot of the weaker songs are the prison songs. I think a lot of over the Wall is kind of melodramatic and silly. I hate. I Draw the Line. I think that song should be cut from, like. That is some of the worst Fred Ebb lyrics of all time.

[Ali Gordon]

Well, and also, another thing that I want to. Is a credit to this movie is that they get the character of Valentin a lot more. Right. A lot more closer to the book where, like, if you've only seen the musical, you are introduced to him as, like, Mr. Machismo, a real tough guy. Quite mean to Melina at first, kinda for no reason. Like, you know that Melina's sort of like a lot and is like a big personality and that, like, for a person who's been thrown into jail and is stressed, like, maybe that's not the person you want to be in jail. But, like, he really comes across as quite an asshole in the musical. And I think that was clear. He's angry, he's dismissive. He's. He's like, don't come to my side of the room like a teenager. Do you know what I mean? It's like, all that stuff is kind of, like, silly. And so I was pleased that in this adaptation, they went for more of the route of just, like, he's a revolutionary. He's a serious guy. His life has been very difficult. He doesn't understand the sort of frivolity of, like, what escapism even means. There's been no such thing as escapism in his life. So when he hears about a person being like, well, I like to turn off my brain and go someplace to dream. It's like, that's insane. It might even be pathetic. Like, what? You can't deal with reality? Do you know what I mean?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ali Gordon]

And so, like, there's still a conflict there, but it's, to me, a lot more believable than this guy who's like, I'm Mr. Tough Guy.

[Matt Koplik]

Do you know what I Mean, yeah, I think what. The reason for that. There. There could be a lot of reasons for it. I think the making him so machismo would make a lot of Broadway audiences a little more comfortable with the dynamic of those two when they do eventually have sex. I. We will talk about this more with Ali Gordon's book, Everybody.

[Ali Gordon]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

I have found that a lot of straight people have an easier time with gay couples when either they are completely sexless and they can't think about who does what in bed, or it's very, very obvious to them, and they don't. Therefore, they don't have to think about it anymore.

[Ali Gordon]

It's like a cartoonish.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I can very clearly see who's the wife and who's the dad.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And so with Valentine and Melina, like, that is kind of that trope of Homelina is so obviously effeminate, and. And Valentin is so obviously masculine. And when they do have sex, like, Valentin isn't gay. He's doing this for a reason. And we know what he's. What position he's gonna be. It's also, I think, because it is a musical and because those prison scenes have to be sung, characters have to be pushed a little further into a mode where singing will make sense. Like, the Valentine that Raul Julia plays in the 80s film is not a valentine who sings because he's so dropped in and calm.

[Ali Gordon]

And I like his performance. And I gotta say, I really liked Diego Luna. Diego Luna? My God, the name.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. We can start talking about the actual movie itself now as we've kind of done all this preamble. I. Going into it, what I had heard was that Tana tiu, who plays Molina, was like, the breakout star of the movie. That there. I had heard split opinions on JLo, either, like, it's the best she's ever been or she's fine. And then Diego Luna was sort of like, he would either get mentioned or he wouldn't get mentioned at all.

[Ali Gordon]

I didn't hear shit about him before the movie. And so I kind of wasn't expecting much. Then I was like, damn.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ali Gordon]

I will say he's a great actor. I think he was a great dancer. Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

I will put it this way. Nobody for the first 40 minutes of the movie impressed me.

[Ali Gordon]

Those first 30 to 40 minutes were tough.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And not just. Sorry, I'm not even talking about, like, musical numbers, like, the prison scenes. For me, I was like, I don't like the acting in this.

[Ali Gordon]

No, no, no. The directing was terrible. It felt claustrophobic. Nothing happened. Yeah, there was a really rough start to the movie and it got much better. But that's a tough start to that movie.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And it's, it's, it's hard to start a movie musical poorly. But I will talk about that a little bit more in a second. But like with Diego and ton of you, they for me, improved immensely. I would say, kind of post where you are. I found their scene, their scenes in particular, to really take off after that. Not in a sense where I went, oh my God, Oscars, Oscars, Oscars. But I was like, oh, I'm enjoying your performances now. And I enjoyed their performances until the end. I have something I need to say. This movie was written and directed by Bill Condon. I don't know where people got in their heads that Bill Condon is the godfather of the movie musical.

[Ali Gordon]

Uh huh.

[Matt Koplik]

I know it started with Chicago and I will have an episode about the Chicago movie coming up soon.

[Ali Gordon]

I mean, it has to. That must be where the opinion.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, that's where it started. But, But Chicago really wasn't more of a blank check for Rob Marshall than it was for Condon, I would say. And I mean, hot take. Full disclosure. I know I'm sort of showing my hand now before that episode comes out. I think Chicago remains the best movie musical of this century and one of the top five adaptations of a stage musical of all time. I will get more into the details of that in that episode. But we, and the truth is we don't have a lot of great movie musicals, especially now. We have some that are fine, some that are quite good, but a lot that are actually quite bad, Bumpy, that have had a. That have a stronger fan following than I think they deserve. One of which is Dream Girls, which I talked about that in the Jason Vesey episode. But like, I think that is where people started to go, oh, he wrote Chicago and he made Dreamgirls. This man should do all the movie musicals. And I'm like, dream Girls, isn't that good? Dream Girls is extraordinarily bumpy. And something that Dreamgirls does that should have given me hesitation for Spider Woman is that Bill Condon is actually deathly afraid of just a genuine musical on screen.

[Ali Gordon]

Aha. It has to have like a point of view, a thing.

[Matt Koplik]

It has to be like as close to realism as possible, I guess. And Chicago, it makes sense because the majority of those songs are commenting on the action. They're not seamlessly integrated. So having everything take place in Roxy's Mind makes sense. And that was a Rob Marshall decision, that wasn't a Bill Condon decision. But that makes sense for me. And also why I was surprised that Rob Marshall didn't incorporate that into nine as well. Or he did with nine, but like, didn't make Guido's movie a musical. And that's why he's thinking of his life as a musical. I'm like, it's so easy. It's so easy, Rob. Anyway, but so Dream Girls, he wanted to make that movie as realistic as possible.

[Ali Gordon]

All my coughing out at this final edit.

[Matt Koplik]

No, no, mute me. The problem is. The problem is he wanted like all of most of the numbers to be production numbers, performance numbers. The problem is, is that and I Am Telling youg I'm Not Going is the most famous song of the show. You can't do that movie without it. And it is a non diegetic song. It takes place in a scene and there's no way around it. And so Condon kind of builds outwardly from there of like, how much non diegetic singing can I get away with and not have as much? Which is why 85% of the wretched Steve and Dreamgirls is cut. It's why so much of Cadillac Car and somebody on the bad side is just performance stuff. The first moment a charact sings and it's not a performance in Dreamgirls is two lines in seven to the bad side, which is 30 minutes into the movie. And it is a quick cut of Jamie Fox in an alleyway. And it's like a blinky and you miss it. And we don't see anything again like that until Family and I don't remember, I don't know what your experience was like seeing Dream Girls in the theater. I saw it three times and all three times the audience laughed. When Jennifer Hudson went, what about what I need? Everyone was like, the fuck are we doing right?

[Ali Gordon]

Because it seemed to come out of nowhere.

[Matt Koplik]

Came out of nowhere. And he didn't really do it ever again after that. I think the. The next time after, and I'm telling you, there was like non diegetic singing in a song. In a scene was Laurel going, and Laurel loves Jimmy. Like everything else was just performance. And with a movie musical in particular, you have to a establish it's a musical immediately get people on board that there's going to be singing, there's going to be dancing, and you have to tell us in the first 10 minutes maximum what the vocabulary of musical theater is going to be.

[Ali Gordon]

Yes, you really have to be like, this is what kind of musical we're watching.

[Matt Koplik]

And, like, how the songs are going to be used.

[Ali Gordon]

Agree with that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, yes. Chicago tells you right up front, like, and this is actually the smart thing of having Roxy have that, like, cut of Roxy on stage is like, we are going to be seeing performances, but Roxy has an imagination, and you're going to see that happen a lot. And then within two minutes, after all that jazz, she shoots Fred Kisley and we go into Funny Honey, and we're like, okay, this is what the movie does. And you have to kind of pack it with numbers for the first 30 minutes. And you also have to have a momentum. You have to have a rhythm. You have to have a tempo. And Case of the Spider Woman, they're singing from JLO over the opening credits, and then there's no song for, like. For, like, 35 minutes, 20 to 30 minutes.

[Ali Gordon]

Really tough. Really tough. Yeah. Yeah, that's tough. And all of the music is in fantasy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ali Gordon]

Which leaves a lot of the best music from the score on the cutting room floor. Which also means that they had to find some sort of, like, trunk songs to put into the movie musical, which are fine. But I can't say much more than that. They're fine. Do what I mean, like, some of the. Some of the best writing of the show, and honestly, some of my favorite Kander and EBB writing of all time is just gone, which really sucks. It sucks. If you're a fan of Kiss of the Spider Woman, do you know what I mean? Like, sorry. Ah. I think it probably sucks for the movie overall, because I'm not watching this as a newcomer, being, like, with brand new eyes, being like, wow, what an incredible score. But I read a bunch of reviews that were like, this is a terrible Kander and EB score, which makes me sad because I love the score. I'm, like, one of its primary defenders in this world. And so, like, it makes me crazy because I'm like, no, you're right. What you watched was an okay score. This show actually has a lovely score. Amazing motif. Just great shit. I just think that, like, if you did. If you are happen to be a person who's listening to this, who saw this movie and has no other references because of the Spider Woman, Please. Oh, my God. Like, just listen to, like, one of the soundtracks, like, the Cheetah cast recording.

[Matt Koplik]

It's so good.

[Ali Gordon]

I mean, that's my personal favorite. I think you should listen to the Cheetah cast recording. I was trying not to, like, input my Opinion on it.

[Matt Koplik]

Vanessa is incredibly well sung. She's a. She's a wonderful replacement. Like you, Cheetah is a Broadway legend and star for a reason.

[Ali Gordon]

And you can fully feel her performance just. Just from listening to it. It's like such a sense of it.

[Matt Koplik]

And you understand what's missing from JLo's performance, who I will say, whatever AI auto tune magic they did, she sounded vocally better than.

[Ali Gordon]

I agree. Also, I thought that she danced fantastically. I just didn't love the choreography.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, so here's my thing. I didn't totally love all of her dancing. I loved her dancing when they were like in the clear, you know, that was incredible. When she's doing the pas de deux with Diego Luna in the photography in the black room and it's supposed to be very funny face esque. When the choreography is going more golden age, Sid Sharice, Debbie Reynolds style. That's where I think JLO shows that she doesn't have classical dance training or she does. She hasn't been doing it for 30 years. Like, some of her lining is off. You know what I mean? Where it's like, it looks like me. If I were to do it, I.

[Ali Gordon]

Don'T think that a really, really astoundingly great choreographer could have communicated that better to her.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yes. No, no, no. This is. This is. This hearkens back to my epiphany seeing follies in 2011 where I bl. I stupidly. My young, stupid self. My stupid young, not slutty, but very sexy self blames Jan Maxwell for story of Lucy and Jesse not working when I should have blamed Warren Carlile for not helping her.

[Ali Gordon]

Jan Maxwell, you should have known you were wrong because you can't blame Jan Maxwell for any.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm Allie. We all make mistakes. Hillary Clinton did not support gay marriage until like yesterday. So we are all about to come to the right side eventually.

[Ali Gordon]

Okay, you're right. As long. As long as you get to the right side.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly as. As Dan Savage said, when the person comes to the right side, you don't parade them for not coming over sooner. You say, welcome. But. So I at the time was like, well, what can Warren? Because I also just come off of Finian's Rainbow, which I. And I thought his choreography that was so beautiful. And I went, well, what could he do? Jen Maxwell can't put her feet together. And then I was like, well, Alexis Smith couldn't do the exact same thing. But Michael Bennett found a way. And when you have a star and the numbers about the star. Figure out you work for the fucking star. Exactly. And so, like, with JLo, she cannot do Sid Sharice dancing. Unfortunately, the movie that she's in is in that era. But it's like, you know what? Figure it out. Do something else instead. I will also say the. With JLo, but what I mean about, like, how JLO sounded, she sounds fine. And she doesn't sound super autotuned. So, like, that's what's really impressive. She doesn't eat the lyrics in the way that Cheetah does.

[Ali Gordon]

I really agree with that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, yes.

[Ali Gordon]

And that's also a very easy fix. Like, I think, look, I am not a JLO hater, and I'm not a JLo, Stan. I'm just sort of like, J. Lo exists in the world. I'm just saying that just so people.

[Matt Koplik]

She's given me joy and she's given me nothing.

[Ali Gordon]

Exactly. So it's like, cool, J. Lo cool. I think, if anything, though, she is a person who can take fucking direction. Do you know what I mean? Like, if there's anything that I believe to be true about JLo, it is that she wants the project to be good. She wants people to see her as, like, a legitimate theater star. And I think that if somebody had been like, well, here's the vision. This is what I want you to sound like. Can you eat the lyrics more? Can you? I want to be able to see your performance just from listening to the soundtrack of this movie. I think she would have been like, got it. Do you mean like.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, and this is where I think Bill Condon failed her, not just as a director, but as a writer. Because I didn't understand watching the movie, why he made this decision that all the numbers are from one movie. You want to know why? Because that's what it is in the 80s movie. It's all one movie. Well, I think it's one movie at the very beginning. And then after that, the opening scene, and then Molina finishes telling that story, and then the rest of the movie's all one giant movie. The thing about it being one giant movie is in the 80s film. And it's in. I know. It's in the book as well. Valentine clocking that Aurora is in. Or whatever her name is in the 80s film because her name changes in every iteration of Spider Man. But I'm gonna call her Aurora from now on. I don't know. La Luna. I never heard of La Luna. I don't give a about. Her name is Aurora.

[Ali Gordon]

Aurora Spider Woman.

[Matt Koplik]

Her name is Aurora Spider Woman.

[Ali Gordon]

Her name is Aurora. Spider Woman. She has a YouTube channel.

[Matt Koplik]

She's the YouTube channel. But Aurora in the 80s film and one of her movies in the book Valentine Clocks, as Melin is talking about it, that she's in a Nazi propaganda film.

[Ali Gordon]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Moline is like, I just remember the beautiful gowns.

[Ali Gordon]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And Valentine's. Beautiful gowns.

[Ali Gordon]

Beautiful gowns.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ali Gordon]

And also that it's romantic.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And it's glamorous and it's. And it's. And it's the kind of escape that he loves and many of us love.

[Ali Gordon]

Yes. I think this is, like, a huge thing that's, like, missing.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. In the musical. In the musical, they make the choice that Molina is talking about multiple Aurora movies.

[Ali Gordon]

This allows pander, which I like personally. I'm just gonna say.

[Matt Koplik]

No. Same, same. And this is where it. This failed JLo and I also think failed the movie because it would have provided JLO opportunities to play different bold.

[Ali Gordon]

Bonker scenarios and wigs. Beautiful wigs.

[Matt Koplik]

Beautiful wigs. Because part of, like, I would have.

[Ali Gordon]

Loved to see her in, like, six different wigs. Oh, my God. I would like movie in more just from the wigs.

[Matt Koplik]

The running joke sort of of Aurora in the musical is like, she's doing all these different films, and she's not necessarily versatile, but it doesn't matter. It's like always. It's like a Joan Crawford thing where it's like, she's always gonna die for love. She's always gonna be beautiful. She's always gonna be a little, like, sexy. The one time she does something different is the movie Kiss of the Spider Woman, which Molina doesn't like because while she's glamorous and beautiful, she's dangerous and she's. She's scary. Yes. But so, like, give me love and where. And where you are and her name is Aurora. Like, all are different movies she's in and those. And we don't need to be so in the weeds of what the plot is. It's like, Melina can give us the byline, and we get in there and the joke is, like, the ridiculousness of it. We. I don't care.

[Ali Gordon]

It also has the benefit of not just the ridiculousness, but what you learn about Molina from the parts of the movie that he likes. So, okay, the musical does away with the, like, realizing it's a Nazi propaganda film, which I think is fine, because I think that would have been too complicated. And to.

[Matt Koplik]

He also doesn't go anywhere for.

[Ali Gordon]

For a musical. Like, it works in the book, but it doesn't work well. It's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like. It's a detail adding to the things that Molina chooses to ignore. But, like, as a plot point, it goes nowhere.

[Ali Gordon]

Correct. But it's like. It's a beautiful little, like, character portrait of just being like, well, I saw a thing on TV once, and it was gorgeous. So that's what's important to me.

[Matt Koplik]

Especially, like, post 1980, that kind of thing would be like, a major plot point of, like, this whole time she was doing Nazi propaganda.

[Ali Gordon]

It basically ends up in the musical becoming a. Like, a Russian Revolution. But so here's what I think is so wonderful about choosing to make it different movies is that you learn a little something about Melina from all of them. But in response, you learn a little bit about, like, Valentin because of, like, his response to the things as well. And so it actually works as this, like, lovely little kaleidoscope that you can, like, put the movie through and watch the reactions to it. So, for example, the one that, like, it becomes this, like, very overblown Russian Revolution movie. It's like, you know, she dies for love. She's gonna marry the Count. But no, she's not. She's gonna marry the revolutionary. Oh, my God, she dies. And, like, Molina loves it because it's like, oh, my God, a woman dying for love. What could be cuntier than that? You know what I mean? Whereas, like, Valentin listens to it and is like, you don't understand what's going on in our country around us right now. Because if that's what you can take from that movie, this bloodless revolution where it's all about love and it's all about the individual and, like, you don't even see the proletariat around them. Like, you don't. Like, what are you. What are you learning about the world? Which then allows him to sing the Day after that, which is one of the best songs written for musical theater, period.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't care what Bill. Bill Compton has been in so many interviews talking about how people were mad at him for cutting, dressing them up. And, like, I get why people are mad about that. I love that song, too.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah, good song.

[Matt Koplik]

I was like, oh, you're avoiding the hot button topic, which is that people are more. More furious that you cut this.

[Ali Gordon]

It makes me so angry.

[Matt Koplik]

It's also. It was just wrong. It was a wrong decision to cut it. And there's a way you can do it of, like, Valentine understands in his own way now the, like, disassociation and being in his own movie world, but his movie is this movie. And this is the song. And there are no dancers. There's no fancy sound stage. It's him on a mic to the camera, singing straight about that. And, like, that would be powerful. That would be Diego Luna's Oscar clip. I know I'm helping everyone today.

[Ali Gordon]

And I think he's so good.

[Matt Koplik]

He is. I also. I understand the enjoyment of putting them in the movie, like, as characters.

[Ali Gordon]

I actually like that, too.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I like that. I think I would have liked it more again if it were multiple movies. And they're not always. Either it's a running joke of who, which characters are they playing in this movie, or sometimes they're characters in it, and sometimes they're just observers and, like, they get to pop up in the world and just sort of watch as Molina narrates. And it's. That would make it a much more fluid way of having the numbers be in and out of the movie as opposed to having to do always hard cuts of jail. Scene, movie, scene, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. Like, there needs to be a point.

[Ali Gordon]

I so agree.

[Matt Koplik]

Especially, oh, sorry, you go, well, just.

[Ali Gordon]

Like, sorry, we're talking, like, around it, but haven't said it. Which is, like, the only movie that is being told in this current movie adaptation is Kiss of the Spider Woman.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Ali Gordon]

And we lose this important thing that, like, it's the only movie Melina doesn't like because he's afraid of this character, where he's like, I love Aurora and I saw all of her movies, but I can't watch this one again because it was so scary to me. And it's like, okay, let's look into this a little deeper. It's not just like, I was a kid and I saw this movie and, ugh, the Wicked Witch was so scary. She represents in that movie that when you give in to your desires and love, people die. Which becomes this huge fucking theme of the musical, which I think is fantastic because it is ultimately what happens in the musical, which is that they both try to resist each other and in becoming intimate with each other, doom each other.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. But it's also the fact that death is constant and it's always looming. And, like, because it's not just spoiler that Molina dies and Molina's afraid of death. Molina's mother is sick and is and could possibly be dying, and that's a constant threat to him. And that's something he does that. That is, like, the one real world fact that he is always thinking about and. And aware of. And it destroys him. It also. But also you need to sort of blend the lines between reality and fantasy more in this movie. Because otherwise the. The scene that they. They cut the day after that, but they kept the Spider Woman Molina interaction that comes right after Morphine Tango.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah. It's in his mind.

[Matt Koplik]

Because it's in his mind. It is still a fantasy, but it. We have never established that this kind of can happen before we are over an hour into the movie.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Condon doesn't even alter the lighting of the scene. He doesn't do, like, girl. Watch the original Nightmare on Elm street and watch how Wes Craven makes Tina's house look perfectly normal and then become, like, scary as shit once she's in the nightmare with nothing but lighting. Yeah. Just make it clear that we're in a haze here. But he doesn't do that. And he's a smart dude who loves movie musicals, so I don't know why he didn't do this. But the problem with making it all one giant movie a. It robs JLO of the chance to, like, show different facets of campy fabulousness.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah. And even different kinds of dance and stuff, too.

[Matt Koplik]

It also robs Condon of being able to include more songs because it's. He's so in the weeds of. What is the plot of this movie that Aurora La Luna is doing and how can we make it fit? Spoiler alert. The. The movie is lady in the Dark in Argentina. That's what the plot is.

[Ali Gordon]

Right. Whereas, like, the kiss of the Spider Woman movie is, like, kind of in the. In the novel. One of the stories that Molina tells from the movie is from movies is Cat People, which is like a real movie, which also has a very similar thing, which is like, this woman becomes a panther when she wants to have sex with men. And so it's like. It's. Again, it's about, like, fear of sexuality and fear of desire and want and lust. And that sort of is what becomes Kiss of the Spider Woman in the adaptations in the movies. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's the. It. But it's, like, becomes this giant lore of. Instead of, like, dooming yourself or others, sacrificing your love for, like, the greater good. Because it. Be. It becomes.

[Ali Gordon]

In this current movie.

[Matt Koplik]

In this current movie.

[Ali Gordon]

Yes. Which I. Which I thought was not, like, bad, but, like, just sort of unnecessary.

[Matt Koplik]

It was just so convoluted. And Graziella Danielle plays, like, the fortune teller who tells J. Lo the whole, like, myth of it all. Supposed to be Cheetah Rivera. But my theater laughed at because she, like, she gives this 10 page monologue of like, who the spider woman is and all these things, like, and the lore. And this is like, meant to be in the third act of this La Luna movie, by the way.

[Ali Gordon]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And JLo's sudden you were finding all.

[Ali Gordon]

Of this out in the third act of this movie.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And La Luna goes. It all makes sense now. And everyone erupted in laughter. And I'm sure, like, there was meant to be like a little bit of cheekiness to it, but the way that the movie is scoring that moment and like, where it's intercutting into the Molina Valentine scene, I don't think content meant for it to be a total laugh out loud.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah, exactly. A little funny, but a lot funny.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, I think it meant to be like a little bit of a chuckle of like, oh, the. The melodrama of it all. Like, we were all laughing because it was the most convoluted monologue someone could say. It came so late in the game and it didn't explain anything. She goes, this explains everything. Why we had to leave the village, why I cannot love. And I'm like, no one cares. We don't care.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah. Stop it.

[Matt Koplik]

Just stop it. And I was also mad. I was. I loved the design they did for Gimme Love. I did not like the choreography, but I wish. God, I wish it could have still been Aurora in a birdcage dancing like a go Go girl at a. Yeah, that is fierce.

[Ali Gordon]

Although I did. I mean, like, I loved. I loved the desire to shoot it like, and stage it like, and costume it like a classic movie musical. Because she's like, in this like, chartreuse dress that feels extremely Sid Charisse.

[Matt Koplik]

And the whole scene looks like one of the moments in the Singing in the Rain.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like Broadway Melody in the club with her. Yeah.

[Ali Gordon]

Things. Yes. And so it's like, it's lovely because I like, see the love. And as a theater and movie musical lover, I feel it. But I think, unfortunately what happens is I appreciate the initial image. I go, oh, that's fun. The red background, the green dress. How. How Singing in the Rain. Love that. But then I have that thought once for 30 seconds and then there's five more. More minutes of storytelling that, like, there's not like a lot of storytelling going on. Do you know what I mean?

[Matt Koplik]

It also doesn't help that I do think. I think the musical numbers are shot terribly for all of this shit. I'm. And I'm gonna say their names now. Because I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be ripping them a little new bit of a new asshole on the Chicago episode for all the. That blank check gives Rob Marshall for how he, like, shot and edited Chicago. They've got a lot of nerve with that when there are so many other movie musicals that are shot so much worse, including this one.

[Ali Gordon]

Oh, yeah, Chicago's fantastic. And anybody who doesn't think so is unfortunately wrong.

[Matt Koplik]

So a lot of movie podcasts will be like, well, we all know Chicago didn't deserve Best Picture. And I'm in the middle of watching all the best picture nominees of that year to. So I can say with my full chest if it deserved it. And I know you're a Lord of the Rings girl, Ali, but I will.

[Ali Gordon]

Say, oh, no, no, that was 2001, right? No, that should have absolutely won in 2001. Absolutely not. Not Lord of the Rings. I'm saying, like, Chicago.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, Chicago. It was. The year was 2002 for the 2003 Oscars. So it was Two Towers that year.

[Ali Gordon]

Oh, definitely should have won.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And I, I saw, like, no offense to Two Towers.

[Ali Gordon]

I'm a girly, but like, you know, but I'm not. I'm not a movie.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm not a fantasy person. I literally watched Fellowship so I could get context for Two Towers. And I will say Fellowship I watched was like, you know what? This is not my genre, but this is very well made. It's beautiful. It's like it. There stuff happens in it. This is good. Like, if this had beaten Beautiful Minded that year, absolutely, I probably still would have voted for Moulin Rouge because I'm gay. But like, if Fellowship had won, I'm like, go for it. People who go like, well, it's like, yes, it was. It was part two of a three parter. But the only reason why Two Towers didn't win is because Return of the King was coming. I'm like, I'm sorry. I think Two Towers. Nothing happens. Nothing happens.

[Ali Gordon]

It's a middle movie. It's a middle book. That's kind of. That's, that's, that's sort of the danger of adapting a three part thing is that the middle one is always, things are about to happen. I still think things do happen. Like, there's crazy set pieces, battle sequences, character development, but it's like, it's just every 10 minutes.

[Matt Koplik]

But nothing happens, baby. Nothing happens.

[Ali Gordon]

It also has my favorite performance ever, maybe put to screen, which is Brad by Brad Gorath. Oh, how did I know?

[Matt Koplik]

How did I know? You so much.

[Ali Gordon]

Greatest performance ever.

[Matt Koplik]

Call you Anatole. I'll call you Anatoly. Call me Florence, Svetlana, because I know you so well. I.

[Ali Gordon]

You do. I think he's incredible in that movie. I think. I think it's anyone's ever acted on screen.

[Matt Koplik]

I can't tell. I was talking to a few people as I was doing this, like, mini Lord of the Rings rewatch. And it was either you or it's my friend Josh or it might have been my friend Scott. All of you. Well, Josh is in a Lord of the Rings girly, but he likes fantasy. But I was like, brad Dwarf is great. It's like, it is a little ridiculous that no one in that kingdom looks remotely like him. And no one is like, hey, it's like, person who looks like inbred evil, maybe you should be kicked to the curb.

[Ali Gordon]

I said to you first thing. Well, I was like, it's my favorite thing about that movie is that there's a man whose name is Wormtongue and everyone's like, the king's friend. We love it. That guy's cool. We love him.

[Matt Koplik]

It was you that I said this to, like, Brad Dwarf looks like inbred evil. And everyone's like, no problem.

[Ali Gordon]

What can we do?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but that. But like, he get. He does get kicked to the curb in the first, like 45 minutes of a three hour movie. So, like, he's problem for just 45 minutes. It's very funny.

[Ali Gordon]

Anyway, he also has one of the best line deliveries ever, which is when he's running away in shame after, like, like, get out of here. There's a woman standing in his way and he goes, get out of my way. It's so cut. I love it so much.

[Matt Koplik]

So I just. I'm only saying this because I. I do love movie podcasts more than I like theater podcasts. They know what they're talking about pretty well and they're passionate and they're all this stuff when it comes to listening to movie people talk about movie musicals because they do like them. But when I hear the ones that they go to bat for, I'm like, oh. And then I'm like, oh. And you're giving Chicago a gentleman's B. Like, oh, you think in the Heights should have been Oscar nominated with that messy ass screenplay. But Chicago, that's tight. As I was when I was 19.

[Ali Gordon]

19 and hairless.

[Matt Koplik]

19 and hairless and. And a literal pulse by Anthony Crivello until I wasn't. And now I'm just like, come To Daddy. I'm like, how I. I sit there listening to these people sometimes. I'm like, you indoor boys. Yes, you are. Yes, you are nice boys. But you are boys. Sit down. Who are like, well, we all know that Spielberg's west side Story is a masterpiece. I'm like, the movie that fumbles the last 30 minutes. No, it's not.

[Ali Gordon]

We'll talk about that some other time.

[Matt Koplik]

You think it's a masterpiece?

[Ali Gordon]

I think it's incredible.

[Matt Koplik]

You were very mid when we came out of the theater.

[Ali Gordon]

I think upon. I think more that I think about it, the more I'm like, that was a. That was a miracle that that exists. It's so earnest. It's so. Everything that we're talking about with this movie.

[Matt Koplik]

I think that Spielberg's west side story is an 8 out of 10. I think when it is great, it is gorgeous. I think it has three major flaws. One, while I actually understand Ansel Elgort's casting, and I don't think he's bad. He is by far the weakest link in the movie, like, by a wide margin. My second thing is, I do think that they fumble the last 30 minutes. I think that. I think that the ending kind of blows, and that is where it has to pack a punch. Like, that is what lost Rachel Zegler. Her nomination for the Oscar was that Spielberg made her rush that monologue which Kushner had already chopped in half. And which is ironic because my third complaint is that Kushner, I think overwrites in that movie. There is way too much that I agree with.

[Ali Gordon]

And, you know, it takes a lot for me to.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, no, I. I, you know, we. We love our cushy Kush, but I'm just saying, like, that's also a movie where Kushner and Spielberg went for the children of today. Let's write this movie and have the kids, like, explain why they're making their decisions. I was like, no, this isn't. This is a story. This is Romeo and Juliet. It's. There's. These are teenagers who are young, horny, hot, and angry. They're not thinking rationally. Stop giving Maria lines to rationalize why she's gonna Tony 5 seconds after finding out her brother's dead. That's true.

[Ali Gordon]

That's true.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, everyone's going through trauma. Everyone's going through anger. So that's that. But. So once we come back with Spider Woman.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah. I'll ask a question before Spider Woman, because I feel like we need to wrap this up at some point, Right?

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. We got against your buck.

[Ali Gordon]

Wait, I feel like I have to be done by like, 10:15.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, about that time.

[Ali Gordon]

Okay, great.

[Matt Koplik]

But we'll probably end it a little sooner than that.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah. Okay, Say what you're going to say.

[Matt Koplik]

No, what's your. No. What's your question?

[Ali Gordon]

No, that wasn't my. My question was that.

[Matt Koplik]

No, my question. So I was just gonna say with. With. As we talk about, like, this movie alongside Chicago, one of my biggest issues with this movie is, like, a lot of stuff that happens is stuff where I'm like, that's an on paper decision that I totally get. Casting JLO for me is like, that's a great on paper decision. But sometimes. But when the execution for me doesn't work, that's when I start picking it apart. I'm like, well, now I see all the flaws.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And for some people, they're like, well, it worked for me. So, like, I watch and. And. And that's. You know, when I debate people about Les Mis, I'm like, all of your complaints about it are totally valid. I don't know what to tell you. It just works for me in a way that, like, other musicals have the same exact flaws as Les Mis. And I'm like, no, to the. To death, all of you. And.

[Ali Gordon]

Whereas Les Mis doesn't work for me.

[Matt Koplik]

There we go. And you've. You've been in it, though.

[Ali Gordon]

And I ha. And famously, I have been in it.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, as have I, but I did not get to play your part.

[Ali Gordon]

But you'd be a really good eponine.

[Matt Koplik]

I would. I. I don't have the eponine hair, but I can wear a trench coat. Like, not another. Especially now that I've lost ten pounds.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah, it's like. It's like the belted trench coat. And it's like the trench coat's so big. But, yeah, it's like. It's like your dad's trench coat, but you gotta, like, belt it because it's like, so. It's so big on you. Do you know what I mean? That's really laughing.

[Matt Koplik]

Tiny gowns because I'm small. That's. That's what I think about all the time. That lyric from Death becomes her tiny gown because I'm small.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, my God. Hey, everybody, it's Matt from the future. I'm just dropping in to do a quick little correction here. As I was editing this episode, I realized that my mouth was too slow for my brain and I didn't properly communicate that when I was talking about Les Mis. I was talking about the stage show, not the movie. I've spoken about this a bit on the podcast about how I feel about. Les Mis is a stage show that I think that it's more about the whole. And it is about necessarily all the little intricacies because you can find a lot of flaws in it. But overall, the impact of it for me is so great. And that's sort of where I was coming from. But I realized while listening to it that it sounded like I was praising the film and that I felt that the film had similar flaws to other movies, but that I gave the film a pass, whereas I didn't give other movies a pass. And that is also what Ali Gordon thought I was referring to. So when I texted her, I was like, oh, this is what. I think. It's implied that I'm. That I'm promoting. And Ali's like, yeah, I thought you were talking about the movie. Ali Gordon likes the stage show. Les Mis. She does not like the movie. I also do not like the movie to give it props. I do think Anne Hathaway is the best thing in it and her Oscar win is deserved. There are some numbers that I think work well that I didn't think were going to work well, like, at the end of the day. Other numbers that I thought were totally going to slap, like lovely Love Ladies, blow, and there's some solid performances in there, but they all kind of get undermined by Tom Hooper's direction. Anyway, that's it. Just wanted you guys to know, I wanted, on the record that I do not think that the LES film is great. I do not find it effective. Done. Done. Back to the episode.

[Ali Gordon]

Giant trench coats because I'm small.

[Matt Koplik]

Giant, giant trench coats because I'm small. So other thing I was going to say, I had gone in hearing how, like, great where you are was in this movie, and I think where you are is objectively the best. The best. No, no, no. Not the movie. I think it's the best song in the score. Oh, I actually don't love how it is in the movie. I think Gimme Love is maybe the best number in the movie for me.

[Ali Gordon]

Oh, I really liked where you are.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't. I didn't dislike where you are. I had two issues with it. I had two issues with it. One was. I thought that they incorporated Molina too early into it. And I. That was. I was like. Of any number. We're like, we need to have cuts of Molina in the prison watching torture and, like, compartmentalizing that into a Musical number, like, that's where we begin. And then he eventually jumps into the number. That was my first complaint. My second complaint was the aesthetic where they're giving JLO the Judy Garland and summer stock version of Cheetah's original outfit with the white hat and white jacket.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But all the chorus boys are wearing sheer black see through tops and, like, leather pants. And I'm like, so this looks like Sid Sharice is starring in the movie Cruising.

[Ali Gordon]

Like, yeah, okay, I agree with that. That felt kind of lazy.

[Matt Koplik]

But it was. I did think, choreography wise, it was the best number.

[Ali Gordon]

And also lighting wise, it was, like, fun lighting. And, like, there were moments where, like, things would come up in silhouette and, like, a block.

[Matt Koplik]

They took what they did on stage and just put it on film and, like, expanded it. Because when you watch the Tony performance, I mean, I. This. I swear, this is not a Rob Marshall, like, love fest here. But, like, Rob Marshall did choreograph the number on Broadway, and, like, that number is sort of credited for steering the show in a new direction. Part of me wishes, like, they had sort of scrapped the whole score once they had where you are and built again from that. But they, you know, I was only three at the time. What was. What was I gonna do?

[Ali Gordon]

What was you to do?

[Matt Koplik]

But not. And I love a lot of the score that they have. What I mean is, like, there are certain moments that we don't like that I think might have been better if they had come from that element of, like, well, now, this is our. This is the seed that we're planting. But so moments in. Where you are in the Tony performance, like when guards are bringing prisoners across the stage with sacks over their heads, and then Cheetah grabs one at the end, whips the sack off, and he's got a top hat on. I'm like, that's the kind of cheekiness, cheeky darkness, that.

[Ali Gordon]

Yes, it's really genius.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah. And they do that in the movie. They, like, do those exact things in the movie. And that's why I think. I think. I think the number works mostly in the movie. I have issues, I guess I said, with the aesthetic of the costumes. I have an issue with including Molina so early. And then again, I just don't always think it's shot well. But I like how it's interpreted because it's the same interpretation as it on stage. And then also, there was a lot of talk about sort of, like, the transness of Molina in this version, which I get. But I actually find that it's less so than the 80s version. Like, Molina is much more overt about how much he doesn't want to be a man or how much they don't want to be a man. In the 80s version, more so than in this version. Whereas this version is more sort of like, I identify with women. I love women. If I could, I would be a woman. And, like, sort of leaves it at that. And I think part of it is, in this day and age, Condon didn't want to make Molina such a tragic figure, which I understand. I felt the. The first half made Melina an archetype because of that, of. Because he didn't want to show too much vulnerability. He wanted Melina to be strong. A lot of Melina, for me, felt unreachable. And then when there was that vulnerability in the second half, not because Molina themselves are a weakling, but because the circumstances have finally just sort of gotten to them, have broken through. I was like, it's like, that's. I was like, I needed more of this in the first half because in the first half, it felt like Tanatillo was doing, like, their tight 10 at the comedy Cellar there.

[Ali Gordon]

Something that I think is great about the musical that is not explicitly in any of the previous movies or book or anything, but I do actually think it's, like, a lovely addition for the musical, is that I like that they chose to make Melina good at surviving prison. That people kind of like Melina. Like, the other prisoners. Like, the guards are horrible, but the other prisoners are kind of like, that's Melina. Melina's been around. Melina makes us laugh, really pragmatic. Do you know what I mean?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ali Gordon]

And there was something that I really enjoyed about that, especially in conjunction with Valentine, who is, like, in the musical. That's like super machismo. Do, do do that. Like, he's actually not doing great. Like, it can't deal with the boredom, can't deal with the taunting from the guards, and you know what I mean? And Melina's the one who's sort of like, hey, I'm gonna show you. I've been in here, and I can kind of show you how to, like, get through the day. I think that actually added to the character in a way, because you still see this dreamer and this person who w. Could be somewhere else and could even be someone else in a way, but, like, is still really adept at dealing with the day to day. And I. I, like. I understand that person. Do you know what I mean? Like, that character. I'M like, I know you. I've met you. I totally like. You know what I mean? Like, a person who has like. Like Valentin thinks of Molina as being this dreamer who can't deal with anything of reality and actually learns and that Melina can deal with quite a bit of reality. Maybe not the same parts that he's able to see and deal with, but, like, is. This is a caretaker and is pragmatic and is good at. You know what I mean? Like, he gets what he wants.

[Matt Koplik]

Mileena. Mileena. I wouldn't say that Melina necessarily deals with reality. Melina knows how to survive reality.

[Ali Gordon]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Where Valentine.

[Ali Gordon]

Yes. There's a credit in that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Valentine is so busy dealing with reality that he's actually not surviving it.

[Ali Gordon]

Yes. Yes. That's an extremely good way of trying to phrase what I was trying to say.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ali Gordon]

Thank you. And you should read. You should try rewriting mine if you can. It's not too late.

[Matt Koplik]

I have some thoughts, but. Well, so I will say also in the. Something that surprised me was that in the 80s movie. I don't know how it is in the book, like, when Molina eventually gets out of prison. Molina has friends. Yes. That they go back to and. And we hear. I don't know what it was that. So there's a character that Melina talks about in all the versions. A waiter at a restaurant.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah. Gabrielle.

[Matt Koplik]

Gabrielle, yes. That they frequent, that they fell in love with. But it was like, always from afar and we just became friends. And in the musical and movie version, it was. It was sad in the sense that, like, he clearly was pining but understood the circumstances. This was not a gay man who.

[Ali Gordon]

Was using a handsome man who was nice to him.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And. And Melina's like, I write him letters. I don't hear back. I. But also, I don't really expect to because the letters are more for me. And in the 80s film, when I watched it, after watching the musical, I was surprised at how moved I was of watching the flashbacks of starting with Melina. Melina goes to this restaurant with two friends of theirs, and that's where they meet Gabrielle. And for some reason, that moved me because up until then, I'd always just assumed from the musical, from the new movie that, like, Melina had no friends. It was just. Yeah, yeah. It gave me, like, a warmth to see Molina with people. And then when it gets out of prison, goes to a drag show that their friend hosts, and everyone's like, welcome Molina back from prison, everybody. And I was like, that's really Lovely. Because it shows that Molina was a person outside of prison and was not somebody to be pitied. And maybe Valentin, with their stigma on what it is to be a man, what it is to be a survivor, sees how Molina survives and pities that until he realizes there's merit in it. But in. But in. In trade gives Molina a bit more of a backbone because it's. Eventually, Valentine stops being like, you have to wake up to the world and blah, blah, and start saying to Melina, stop making a joke of yourself. Yes, you're. You're good people.

[Ali Gordon]

You're a person.

[Matt Koplik]

You're a person. You're. You're not just a good people. You're a person. Yes, you're smart, you're strong, You're.

[Ali Gordon]

You're compassionate, smartly.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, Creative, insightful, and. And don't take yourself for granted. Which is another. You could also view them having sex in the previous iterations. Not just. It's why. It's like two things are true at once. It is a manipulation. Valentine is doing it to kind of ensure that Molina will do this thing for him with his comrades. But also it is a coming together. Two people who care for each other. And Valentin's kind of showing Molina, you. You do not realize that you're someone worth caring for. And if this. And, like, this will show you that you are worth caring for, someone you care about is going to have sex with you. And that is. Some people can say, well, that's a shallow way to feel confidence. I'm like, it's not your story. It's Melina's.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah, well, and also, like, in the book. God, I hope I. I hope I'm rephrasing this. It's so well written in the book. But I. I hope I'm phrasing it well. Basically, like, Valentin asks Melina, like, so with gay men, aren't gay men having sex? Like, aren't you guys hooking up? And Melina's like, oh, yes. Oh, yes. Don't worry about that. We're hooking up. And he's like, so then, like, what's your hang up? Like, aren't you popular? Can't you get guys? And he's like, yes, but the kind of guys that I want are attracted to women. I'm not into. I. I am not. I don't want the kind of men who want to fuck me. I want men who want wives. I want men who are like the. Like. Like, that's basically what he says, which is like, I want to be the woman that. That man wants to be intimate with. Because that's the kind of man I'm attracted to. And so there is also in that thing, like. I don't know. It's like. It's both nice because it's like sort of like an affirmation of like, well, here's the man that is into women. Here's the man who would want. Who would. Wants a wife and grandchildren, and he wants you. Do you know what I mean? But it's also that thing of, like, I don't know. Valentine's also like, well, gender's a construct. Who gives a shit? I read Marx. Like, whatever. You know what I mean? He's like, men and women should be equal. And Melina's the one who's sort of like, no. Like, hold on a second. There's some fun in the roles here. And Valentine's like, no, abolish the roles.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I wouldn't go as far as, say that Valentine's Day thinks that gender itself is a construct so much as he thinks that gender roles are constructs.

[Ali Gordon]

Sure, sure, sure. You know what I mean? He's just sort of like, I don't like thinking about, like, the man's the provider and the woman's at home, and the man, the strong man, comes home, and Melinda's like, well, I kind of like it. Don't take it away from me. I like it.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like.

[Ali Gordon]

It's just like. It's just. It's just a nice, sensitive portrait of two kinds of thinkers in the world. That doesn't necessarily. Like. Like you said, like, it doesn't ascribe. Like, that's a manly way of thinking, and that's a woman's way of thinking. It's like. It's such a. It's just so much more. I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, but it kind of. But it shows you sort of how both of them are fluid and strict in their thinkings in different ways of life. I think it's. I think it's. I like that it.

[Ali Gordon]

Sorry.

[Matt Koplik]

I think that it's. It's. It's fascinating to sort of flip the script that Molina, the queer character who has dealt with more oppression and conforming than Valentine, has had to have as a very masculine presenting person, being like, no, I think that there should be gender roles. Yeah.

[Ali Gordon]

Because it's part of the fantasy. Like. Like, in. In the fantasy of, like, what would it be like to be a woman? I mean, live this life. It's like, that's what he. That's what that's what the fantasy is.

[Matt Koplik]

That's the simplistic nature of these movie musicals of like, it's so easy. She's a glamorous, beautiful woman who runs a magazine and there's a strong guy who loves her. Yeah, it's all good.

[Ali Gordon]

Okay, let's. I. I have to pee. Do you want to wrap this up while I go pee?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, why don't you. Why don't we wrap up? Yeah, we'll do a little pause, but. So while Ally goes to pee, I will just finish my final thoughts on this, which is to say that despite all the ways that I have been kind of dunking on this movie, I hope that I've also given it some positives. I know we talked about Diego Luna and Tonight, who I think after a kind of rough first start, really kind of take off for the rest of the film. I do think Gimme Love is a solid number. I don't dislike where you are. I think I was maybe just a little underwhelmed because I'd heard such great things, things about it going in and I think it's perfectly fine. It's my favorite song in the show. In general, for me, this movie is. This is gonna sound harsh, but I think this movie is kind of just nothing. This movie musical, it's not compelling enough as a drama to stand up to the 80s film, which I understand Ali's issues with it. I think maybe it's because I'm new to it. I think the 80s film is effective. It's a little long, it can get a little tedious towards the end and it gets a little odd. But that's sort of Spider Woman in general, that it's an odd story. But I think that the 80s film with William Hurt and Raul Julia is a very compelling drama in and of itself. I think the stage musical is a odd, messy, but overall very effective musical. And I think that the current movie musical just does not know how to do either. It wants so hard to be an Oscar worthy drama, but has these songs that are the reason to do it and to have JLo in it. And thus things just don't. Don't clash. What I was saying, Ali, before you left was like, my take on this movie is like, I don't think it is. So I read somewhere someone on talking Broadway was like, I think this is the best movie musical since Cabaret. To which I say, oh, so you think it's better than Little Shop of Horrors? You certain? Sit down. And then some people saying, oh, this is. I think this is just Terrible. And I go, it's neither. For me, this movie is just sort of nothing.

[Ali Gordon]

I don't think it's terrible. I don't think it's earth shattering. I think it's nothing. I think if you like musicals, it's worth seeing. Do you know what I mean?

[Matt Koplik]

Like, sure.

[Ali Gordon]

I mean, I feel like if you're a person who's like, I go see Broadway musicals, I like musicals. Like, I don't. I don't see any reason why you wouldn't go see the movie and make your own opinion. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm not like, oh, it's horrible. Don't see it.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, I'm more of a. I think that. I actually think it's more worth seeing movies like this to see. Why, for me, like, why I. Why all the ways I think this movie doesn't work is important more so than it's the other ways that a movie does work. Because you learn, you always learn from the quote unquote, mistakes.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think that there are a lot of major mistakes that Condon makes in this movie. I think not having a genuine number early is wrong. I think not having quite a few numbers back to back is wrong. I think making all of La Luna's songs in one movie is the incorrect choice. And as I said, I get now why he did it. Because that was the choice in the 80s film. So many things that are in that film are in the movie. Like the Molina telling the warden, I'm gonna need all these foods to make Valentine think that my mother visited me. Then the hard cut to him unbagging out of the bag straight out of the 85 movie. Just things like that. Like even. Even ending with Valentine alone is similar to the 80s film. It's. It's a different ending alone. And I would argue that while the ending is weird in the 80s, it does sort of thematically tie into now Valentine knows how to escape. And Valentine enjoys the joys of disassociation. Whereas this movie, because Condon wants to give queer love joy, even if it's, like, tragic. He's like, well, now Valentine is fully in love with Melina. And it's a gay romance. And it works for some people, doesn't work for me. Especially that final scene. I'm sorry, I rolled my eyes harder than I was when I realized Anthony Crivello didn't have hair on his back.

[Ali Gordon]

19 and hairless. That's the name of your book.

[Matt Koplik]

19. The thing I wasn't hairless at 19. These arms have been these arms since I was, like, 17.

[Ali Gordon]

That is true.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. My arms could compete with your head. That's the thickness of the hair we're talking about. But, yeah, that's just my thoughts. I don't think it's terrible. I think they're fun. Far worse. But I also. I would like to challenge theater people to look at these movie musicals. Not just of, like, of this entry, but, I mean, Even, like, the 50s and 60s, we had some bad ones. Like, I. I would argue we don't have actually a lot of great movie musicals. We have some. We have a. We have a good chunk. We have a. A good pile of good. And we have a lot that are actually kind of messy with some high points, but. Messy.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah. Oh, wait. Also, last thing I want to say is, I thought that the last number, Only in the Movies, was pretty good. I. I kind of wanted more, like. I think it could have used, like, more sets. This is kind of like, that was, like. That was the number where I was like, oh, I see the budget now. Now I see the budget is in this number. I also think.

[Matt Koplik]

I thought it was a mistake not to end on it either.

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah, I agree with that. But I liked it, and I think it was two of the best moments of performance from both of those actors in the. In the whole thing. And it always moved me. I. I didn't love the movie. I didn't hate the movie, but I wasn't like, ah. But, like, I still cried at that number because I love Kisses of Spider Woman. And that. That number just works for me. I like it better in stage because they kind of do an all that Jazz ripoff where there's, like, people in the audience. There's, like, audience on stage.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ali Gordon]

In the seats.

[Matt Koplik]

Molina's mother is escorting everyone to their movie seats.

[Ali Gordon]

Yes. And it's like, the warden is there and Valentin is there, and it's like all these people from his life are there, and it's. It's all that Jazz. And I think because all that Jazz is also one of my favorite movies, I think I'm just like, that's what I like, and I like it and everything, so I sort of missed that a little bit.

[Matt Koplik]

It was also. It was down to you and one other person to cover all that Jazz on this podcast, and I think we're going with the other person just because that's fine.

[Ali Gordon]

Look, I can't do every single piece of media I love, because my fear is that the more that I come on here and talk about things that I love the more it will reveal what an idiot I am. Do you know what I mean? Because I think my taste is good. Do you know what I mean? I'm like, the things I like, I can stand behind being great Kiss of Spider Woman. I know it's a mess, but I love it. Angels in America. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's like I can stand behind my taste, but then I get on here and I'm like, so anyway, something that's fun about it is that it's really good.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. But also, I just think I want listeners to know you're not a total Pollyanna. Like, you're a. And when you don't like something, you're so. You.

[Ali Gordon]

You.

[Matt Koplik]

You and I are very similar in that when we don't like something. I mean, listen, there's a difference to how I talk on the podcast versus how I talk in life. Life, when you and I are sitting down and just chatting and no one's around it. No hold. No. No bars. Hold. Hell, whatever. The whole part, what is it? No holds barred. Yeah, yeah, that. It's that. And on the podcast, I try to be more mindful a. Because it's public, but also just because if it's going to be on the record, I want it to be a conversation. I don't want it to be like, Matt says this, everybody bow down that.

[Ali Gordon]

And also, like, if you're gonna. If you're going to engage in negativity, it's not particularly fun to hear somebody be like, well, I didn't like it. And then to be like, okay, why? And just be like, well, I didn't. It's like, well, then, okay, well, you then, yeah, if you can really genuinely. I've heard many people say that they hate things I like, but they explain the reasoning behind it in a way that I might not agree with. But I'm like, what am I going to do? Are you with your reasoning? Your reasoning solid. I totally understand why your taste or whatever has taken you to this opinion. I think your opinion is not my opinion. I might even go ahead and think your opinion is wrong, but at least you have an opinion and you. You've like gotten there. Like, you haven't just like in a knee jerk reaction way been like, well, I don't like that. And that's all I'm gonna think about that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ali Gordon]

So I'll. I'll always respect that and make it.

[Matt Koplik]

About the material that's there. Don't project onto it what a narrative tells you online, like, don't go, well, because it says this about this. I'm like, you don't know what that. That's what it says, right?

[Ali Gordon]

Totally.

[Matt Koplik]

Actually watch it. Actually experience it. You might be surprised at something nuance. So that's our take on Kiss of the Spider Woman. And it's good that we close things out with this gay story because we have another gay story.

[Ali Gordon]

Hey, how about that?

[Matt Koplik]

Ali Gordon wrote a book, everybody. This whole. This whole review has actually been propaganda to. To get you all to go out and buy. We have reached the end of our show, the debut novel of Alexandra Elizabeth Gordon. Elizabeth's not actually your middle name, is it?

[Ali Gordon]

No, my. I sort of gave myself that name because I don't really have a middle name. It's too long of a story. I can't say everything legal about me just in case some freak is out there, some Brad sitting right here, some Brad Dourif is out there. But, yeah, so anyway, but my name, My novel is under my working name, which is Ali Gordon, A L I.

[Matt Koplik]

So I just finished this two days ago.

[Ali Gordon]

That's crazy. How fun. I'm glad that you read it slowly. I actually find that to be quite. I like that, personally. I think when people rush to finish a book, it's usually because it's not great. It's either incredible and it's like, can't put down, like. Like Hunger Games, like, oh, my God, what's gonna happen next? Or people are like, well, I have to get to my reading goal, so I might as well just finish this one.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ali Gordon]

So like, when people text me and are like, hey, sorry. It took me a while to get through this, but, like, I finally finished your book yesterday. I'm like, thank you. Thank you for living with it for, like, multiple days of your life. You know what I mean? I find that quite moving.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. I know what you mean. All the time, always. You don't have to keep asking me. You make. You make more sense to me than algebra. So. Wow. Why don't you explain to our listeners what this little piece of paper is about?

[Ali Gordon]

Okay. So my novel, we have reached the end of our show, started for me with an idea which was like a question which was like, what if you already knew you were dying at the end of the world? That just seemed like an interesting narrative in to me, which was like, well, how would that make you act? How would that make you feel if you found out you were gonna have to say goodbye to all your friends and family and then suddenly weren't gonna have to because you were all gonna die at the same time. How would that affect the last couple days of your life? Like that was sort of the big question for me. So essentially it is a road trip in the Last 25 Days of Earth and the protagonist, who is a 30 year old and was a dancer before his diagnosis, his cancer diagnosis, has gotten some not so good news recently and knows that he's gonna die like within the year and suddenly there's an asteroid coming and Earth is gonna be hit and there's nothing really to do about it. And suddenly everybody's got 25 days to live. So he, with his boyfriend and his young cousin drive to Sacramento to take her home to say goodbye to her parents because there's no other way to get around. Because like nobody's like flying airplanes or anything. It's the end of the world. So like I always say that it's like genre fiction wearing like sunglasses in disguise. Because it's really just like literary fiction. It is really truly just a family drama. It is very much about these three people and how this bad news affects their lives and how they flint against each other and some of their family history, like their histories coming together, needed to be for each other, be there for each other in the last 25 days of Earth, you know, and like the genre stuff is sort of like my like gotcha. I'm like, woo. It's about the end of the world. Fucking got you. Now that you're here, it's actually gonna be like a very sincere meditation on like grief and loss of potential and the different ways people are able to deal with bad news at this age. Like something that I discovered is that like people in their 20s to 30s have very different concepts of death, grief and how to deal with like life changing news. It sounds like a big part of my inspiration also behind writing this, which was like to write about that in an extremely unjudgmental way of not being like there's one right way to do it and this is the right way and everyone else is wrong if you can't deal with it in this way. Because these three people really wildly vary in their response to finding out time is limited. Yeah, that's basically it. I just, I wanted to be able to write a sensitive portrait of that.

[Matt Koplik]

Question and do you think you did that?

[Ali Gordon]

I have no fucking clue.

[Matt Koplik]

Do you really think you did that, Alec?

[Ali Gordon]

I have no fucking clue. That's the truth is I'm like, I hope so. I, you know, well, the other characters.

[Matt Koplik]

Names are Josie and Leazy. Put some respect on their names.

[Ali Gordon]

Sorry? Put some respect on their names.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Josie, who's a former Mennonite, right?

[Ali Gordon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Lizzie, who is a former actress because no one's acting anymore in the last 25 years.

[Ali Gordon]

Exactly. Well, I would say she's an actress up until the fucking end. And that. That. That's something I fucking love about her.

[Matt Koplik]

She. She has a very interesting development for me in the book of how she starts. And you meet Leezy and you're like, oh, I know this girl. Anyone who's ever either lived in New York or, like, been friends with actors knows someone like Leezy. Absolutely.

[Ali Gordon]

And that was also, like, a huge part for me, which was like, I love actors, and I also know everything that's bad about actors. So I was like, I really would like to write a character that is a pretty accurate portrayal of, like, a woman in her mid-20s who came to New York with lots of money and, like, kind of has, like, a lot of, like, opportunities at her fingertips. And it's like, you know, the beauty of the actor and how actors can be great friends and partners, but how also they can be absolutely absolute nightmares. So my hope is that people will read it and be like, I know Lisi. I know that person.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't want to give too much away. I will say something about Lisi. This actually ties into Spider Woman a little bit. You have a flashback with her that ties into her overall arc for the last 25 days of the. Of the world, which is that she is somebody who, when confronted with the harsh cold, you know, dose of reality, can't really deal if there's a way. If there's an escape route, right?

[Ali Gordon]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

If she's given an escape pod, she resents that she, you know, has to do it. And she doesn't like that people know that about her. She wants to feel like she's a mature adult, but she isn't. And when there's an escape pod, she takes it. However, there is no escape pod for the last 25 days. And as each day gets a little bit closer and. And hardships come the way of this trio, she. Oh, she slowly but surely steps up.

[Ali Gordon]

Yes, she gets better at dealing.

[Matt Koplik]

She does not become Lara Croft, Tomb Raider by the end. Like, she doesn't become, like, I am woman, hear me roar. She still has her traits because, like, no one does. No one ever really does a 180, but especially not in 25 days.

[Ali Gordon]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

But she learns how to be a pillar for somebody else. A caretaker for somebody else while, you know, still having her own stuff. But I really. So I really enjoyed that about her.

[Ali Gordon]

Good.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm so glad.

[Ali Gordon]

I know she's like a. She is sort of like the difficult character in this novel. And I knew that that would be true as I was writing it. I was like, people are going to have some strong reactions to this character, especially if you are a person who's, like, been a caretaker or been through really tough times. People like Lisi make you fucking crazy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ali Gordon]

So it was really my intention to be like, can I make people really change their minds about the. This person? Can I make them understand her? They don't have to act like her. They don't have to go like, oh, well, that's the right way to act. Then. I get it. I get it. But can you. But, like, can I get somebody who's like a Josie to understand the way somebody like Alicia thinks or behaves or fears? Do you know what I mean?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I think the thing about Josie is Josie is such a wet blanket.

[Ali Gordon]

When we meet him, he is a. I have been calling him a humorless scold. That's what he is at his worst. At his best, he's many other wonderful qualities. At his worst, he's a humorless scold.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's why it's good to have those flashbacks. But we also. We learned that there's a reason why Josie is the way he is and why he acts certain ways to different people. Like, there's a reason why he acts this way to Leezy and why he never really gives her the benefit of the doubt. And until she eventually pulls through and she, like. She shows moments where she really, like, earns her keep among the three of them, I. I'm not. I would argue for me, the one who frustrated me as a person the most was Gabe. Just because Gabe is as the glue between these two polar opposites. Like, they. They both love him, he loves both of them. They don't love each other. And so he has. He's sort of. He's. He's Switzerland. And so he's always trying to find peace with everyone all the time. Always.

[Ali Gordon]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And that frustrated me. Not because of anything you wrote. You did a very good job with him, but you actually were so accurate about him. Because I know Gabes.

[Ali Gordon]

Oh, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I know Gabes, too, who, like, will say and do anything to make sure there is always peace and.

[Ali Gordon]

Well, and also, it's because his time is limited.

[Matt Koplik]

You know what I mean?

[Ali Gordon]

So it's like he Wants to enjoy himself. I'm not entirely sure that that is who he would be without. Without knowing that he was sick and that he was gonna die. And having known this for a while, I do think that it. He, at least my opinion is that like, he is. I think he's been on his own for a while. It's clear that he did not have a good relationship with his parents. So I think he's massively self reliant and self sufficient. But he's also extremely good looking. So I think a lot of things can come to him. Do you know what I mean? I'm serious. You're laughing. Like, I think that, like, I think that he knows kind of how to be impassive and let things sort of come his way. Whereas, like, there are other people in the world who have to like, fucking like, work, grind, make a version of themselves to exist in the world. I think one of the only things he's ever had to not do is like, make a version of himself to exist in the world. He's very comfortable just being himself. But sometimes people like that who are just like, what? Like, that's me and that's the world and people like me and. Or if they don't fuck them like that, that can be a very admirable quality. And like, I think people like that are so attractive. Like, we are attracted to those people in the world who like, know who they are and aren't afraid of who they are and are sort of like, fuck you if you don't like me. But another sort of funny quality of those people is that they're like, well, I don't want to fucking fight about it. I'm just like, like, don't come to me with the drama. Do you know what I mean?

[Matt Koplik]

But he does have breaking points. There is a moment where he does snap with Josie when they're in Vegas and we realize that he does feel these things. It's just like he has to be pushed to such an extreme. And that was the moment that I realized and I was glad I was reading slowly and I texted you about that moment. I won't say what the moment is, but when I finished the book, I texted Allie and I apologized for being such a slow reader. And she said what she said about slow readers. And I was like, well, if I had sped through and I wouldn't have noticed this and all he said, you are the only person to say anything to me about that.

[Ali Gordon]

No, no, because, well, no one in the world would fucking. No one in the world is reading my book and being like, I need to text you about the sexual relationships of these characters.

[Matt Koplik]

But I was trying to be vague. Can we not have the listeners know that? That's all I think about, is just talk.

[Ali Gordon]

I respected it. I genuinely mean that. I mean, I. First of all, I laughed because I was like, I'm so glad that of all the people in the world who noticed, it's you. But it's also one of those things. I was like, I really, you really do have to think about it. Like, if you're writing characters and you're living with them for like four years worth of edits and things, like, you do have to know a lot about them. There are things that I know about these characters that no one will ever know because they're just like in word documents for myself to help me understand the characters better. Do you know what I mean? I know things about these characters no one ever needs to know. Who gives a shit if they do or don't. But I know, and I thought that honestly, the, the sexual relationship between these two characters would matter because, like, they're in a long term relationship. They're not a fling. They've been together for like nearly six years.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ali Gordon]

So, like, it is a part of your fucking life.

[Matt Koplik]

It's.

[Ali Gordon]

It is.

[Matt Koplik]

It is a very big part of your life. Yeah. And as we learned with Spider Woman, it's there, there. You can put too much importance on sex, and you can put too little importance on sex. It is a manifestation of care as well as of passion and desire.

[Ali Gordon]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And when you have someone who you care about, desire, are passionate about, what better way other than, you know, I guess, sending them flowers on Valentine's Day. What better way to show them you care than be like, hey, you wanna not make a baby today, but do the way you could.

[Ali Gordon]

Exactly. But it's also like, you know, a big part of their lives in the recent past has been dealing with bad news and sickness and weakness and chemo treatments. And it's like, how can you make sex coexist with those things? And like, those are like. I do think those are interesting questions. And I will say not to, like, fucking toot my own horn, but like, something that people I've been appreciative, that they have responded to has been being like, thanks for not having Gabe be like the perfect sick patient. Because like, a lot of people who are either chronically ill or sick or disabled or have partners who are, are like. I read a lot of books with this theme, and usually the Person who is ill or othered in some way is like an angel. Like, and it's like they're untouchable and never say or do anything bad. And like, it's so sad that they're sick. And I was like, I really do want to make sure that, like, Gabe is like a fully realized person, including wanting to fuck his boyfriend and that like, his boyfriend who's like, way more concerned about his health and his safety and blah, blah, blah, is the person who's much more happy to let that fall off, off the table. You know what I mean? Because, like, when you step into a caretaker role, it sort of becomes a singular focus and sometimes you start to see the person you're caretaking for as, you know, this, this little precious thing. But the person who is the person being cared for is not this precious little thing. They're a fully realized human who like, wants their boyfriend to them. So I don't know, I was trying.

[Matt Koplik]

To be coy and Ali just left it all on the table. I think that's where we should leave this with. We have reached the end of our show by Ms. Ali Gordon. The best case I can claim for. So someone's thesaurus. If ever.

[Ali Gordon]

I don't have a. Wait. Actually, that's Troy. Do you have a thesaurus?

[Matt Koplik]

Everyone has a thesaurus. I was making a joke, I will say as I was reading and I went, I did not know Ali knew this many words.

[Ali Gordon]

I know a lot of words, unfortunately.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. It's very beautifully written. It definitely made me go, oh, I need to bone up on my vocabulary.

[Ali Gordon]

Wow.

[Matt Koplik]

Because it is, it is very well written. It's a lovely book. If you guys are a fan of Podmother, you'll be a fan of this. It is, it is. It is a wonderful read. I highly recommend it. Ally working people, where can people order it if they want to order it?

[Ali Gordon]

You can kind of get it anywhere. That's the truth. You can get it on Amazon, you can get it on Barnes and Noble. There's a really great website that's called bookshop.org that supports like independent bookstores. So if you have a bookstore in your neighborhood and you're like, I love that bookstore. That's like my go to place. That's where I'd like to pick the book up. You can either go to them in person and be like, hey, do you have this in stock? And if not, can you order it? Or you can order it via bookshop.org through them to like pick up at the place. Or even deliver to your home. That's really beneficial because I get a cut of that. But also the bookstore gets a cut of that. So that's a lovely way to sort of like, support your community.

[Matt Koplik]

Allie, where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[Ali Gordon]

You can find me on Instagram at Missalice Nutting. M S A L I C E N U T T I N G Also, I feel like we, like, really sold this book as being, like, a sexy little spicy thing. It's really not.

[Matt Koplik]

No, it's sad. It's very emotional. There is sex.

[Ali Gordon]

Really just sort of like honest portrait.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't think anyone hears. I don't think people hear Death and End of the World and go, oh, yes, jerk material. No, no, this is not for the spank bank. Everybody got their things? All right, if you want to find me on. On Instagram, only at my cop. Like usual spelling if you like. The podcast Next five star rating or review really helps us with the algorithm. Make sure to join the Discord Channel. The substack. I believe this is coming out right before our live show at Green Room 42, November 14th. Probably break down a cabaret now with Ms. Natalie Walker, who spent five seconds on this episod episode, as well as Broadway's Josh Daniel. So please come join us for that. It's gonna be amazing.

[Ali Gordon]

When she comes back, tell her I love her.

[Matt Koplik]

I will do just that.

[Ali Gordon]

Also, speaking of reviews, if you did read my book and like it, please put a review someplace. It helps so much. I'm sorry to say that.

[Matt Koplik]

Ally. Ally, we gotta go. We gotta go. So what diva do you want? What diva do you want to close this out with.

[Ali Gordon]

Let. I mean, we gotta do Cheetah.

[Matt Koplik]

We're gonna do Cheetah.

[Ali Gordon]

You gotta.

[Matt Koplik]

We're gonna do Cheetah. I love it. I love it, love it so much. Okay, I love you.

[Ali Gordon]

Love you.

[Matt Koplik]

Bye, everybody. Thank you so much for listening. Take it away, Cheetah.

[Ali Gordon]

You've got to learn how not to do what you've done the pistol shot can't kill if you unload the gun so build a palace where you're the shah and we'll embrace in that Shangri La if you run away so imagine from where you are on.