Broadway Breakdown Episode: Matt Reviews: KISS OF THE SPIDERWOMAN (2025) w/ Ali Gordon Release Date: November 6, 2025 Host: Matt Koplik | Guest: Ali Gordon

Episode Overview

Matt and returning “podmother” Ali Gordon dive deep into Bill Condon’s 2025 film adaptation of Kiss of the Spider Woman—a conversation ranging from Broadway history and queer representation, to the messy legacy of the source material and how the new film stacks up as both drama and musical. The episode also features a heartfelt segment about Ali's debut novel, We Have Reached the End of Our Show, drawing parallels to the themes in Kiss of the Spider Woman.

Main Discussion Points

1. Personal Histories with Kiss of the Spider Woman (03:09–12:49)

• Ali’s Introduction:

  • Long-time fan; first saw a large-scale student production at Michigan’s Power Center and fell hard for the messy musical.
  • “Every girl is entitled to one musical that’s kind of a wreck but is her favorite... For me, that is fully Kiss of the Spider Woman.” —Ali (03:19)

• Matt’s Introduction:

  • Familial connection to Chita Rivera; initial interest came from curiosity about Rivera and later the album and Brent Carver’s performance.
  • “Whoever this waif of a man named Brent Carver is... This is the role I want to play.” —Matt (05:42)

• Shared memory lane: Both recall watching the pro-shot at the Lincoln Center library (some details fuzzy, some text receipts laughed over).

2. The Source Material: Book, Movie, and Musical (13:13–23:25)

• Ali breaks down Manuel Puig’s original novel:

  • Unique structure: No quotation marks, dialogue runs in long passages, clinical “footnotes” describing research on homosexuality and psychology.
  • “It’s like overhearing a conversation through a wall... it almost feels like inheriting letters from a family member.” —Ali (15:40)

• Romanticism Across Mediums:

  • Book: Intimate but not overtly romantic.
  • 1985 film: More reserved, with a complex take on queer/trans elements and relationship ambiguity.
  • Musical: Adds tenderness, but “has an amazing score and a really inconsistent book” (03:22).
  • 2025 Movie: “Hardcore went, no, they are now in love and they’re a couple completely.” —Matt (16:43)

3. Strengths and Flaws of the Original Musical (19:36–22:05)

• Praise for the score (Kander & Ebb) but criticisms of the prison scenes:

  • “The musical has trouble with the prison stuff... The prison is where it all takes place.” —Ali (19:41)
  • Lack of menace and dramatic stakes in staging.
  • Prison songs often “melodramatic and silly”—specific call-out: “I Draw the Line” (21:32).

• The “machismo” depiction of Valentin is challenged:

  • “He comes across quite an asshole in the musical... I was pleased that in this [film] adaptation, they went for more of the route of just like, he’s a revolutionary. He’s a serious guy.” —Ali (22:05)

4. Context of the 2025 Movie Adaptation (24:55–37:20)

• Bill Condon’s Adaptation Choices:

  • Hews closely to the 1985 movie, not just the stage musical.
  • Trouble setting musical “vocabulary” and cinematic language in the first act: “There’s singing from JLo over the opening credits, then no song for 20-30 minutes.” —Matt (30:51)
  • All fantasy numbers are from one fictitious Aurora film, rather than a series of different movie pastiches as in the show. This limits opportunities for varied musical/dance numbers and JLo’s characterization.

• Impact on JLo/Aurora:

  • “Part of, like, I would have loved to see her in, like, six different wigs. Oh, my God, I would like the movie more just from the wigs.” —Ali (37:20)
  • “It robs JLo of the chance to show different facets of campy fabulousness.” —Matt (43:55)

5. Cast & Performance Highlights (24:55–33:30)

• Diego Luna (Valentin):

  • Surpassed expectations: “I didn’t hear shit about him before the movie... I was like, damn.”
  • “No one for the first 40 minutes impressed me... but [Luna and Tanațiu] improved immensely.” —Matt (25:37)

• JLo (Aurora):

  • Vocals better than expected (“didn’t sound super autotuned”), solid dance chops (especially when allowed to do “her kind of movement and not Sid Charisse”).
  • Missed opportunity: Needed sharper choreography and direction to maximize her strengths.

6. Critique of the Movie Musical Form & Execution (26:37–47:43)

• Condon’s Direction:

  • Reluctance for non-diegetic musical numbers (songs happening “in real life” instead of just as fantasy/movie-within-movie numbers) echoes choices in Dreamgirls.
  • “With a movie musical, you have to establish it’s a musical immediately... tell us in the first 10 minutes what the vocabulary will be.” —Matt (30:10)
  • Numbers (like Where You Are and Gimme Love) generally not shot or staged inventively; choreography, costumes, and tone sometimes mismatched.

• Score Issues:

  • Dropping some of the show’s best numbers (“Day After That” among others), truncating Kander & Ebb’s vision.
  • “If you watched the film and didn’t know the show, you’d think it was a terrible Kander & Ebb score—which makes me sad because I love the score.” —Ali (32:12)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “All the threats with Molina are incredibly heavy handed... It’s effective the first time you see that in a Player or a movie. But after like the 40th, you’re like, this is the well we keep coming back to.” —Matt (20:50)
• “When you have a star and the number’s about the star... you work for the fucking star.” —Matt, discussing JLo’s choreography and director responsibility (33:28)
• “I’m not a JLo hater, and I’m not a JLo stan. I’m just sort of like, JLo exists in the world.” —Ali (34:52)
• “For me, this movie is kind of just nothing. It’s not compelling enough as a drama to stand up to the ’80s film... It just does not know how to do either.” —Matt (69:13)

Key Segment Timestamps

• Ali’s Introduction to Spider Woman: 03:09–04:39
• Book Structure & Adaptation Differences: 12:49–16:43
• Romantic Dynamics Across Adaptations: 16:43–19:36
• Musical’s Prison Scenes Critique: 19:36–22:05
• Discussion of 2025 Movie—Cast, Direction, Musical Choices: 24:55–38:30
• Movie Musical Critique/Bigger Picture: 26:37–38:30, 47:15–58:51
• Transness of Molina & Representation: 58:51–60:15
• Final Movie Verdicts: 69:13–70:37

Ali's Novel: We Have Reached the End of Our Show (75:55–90:07)

• Overview: End-of-the-world road trip, three main characters (Josie, Leezy, Gabe), meditations on death, caretaking, and managing trauma.
• Themes: Coping mechanisms, family, queer relationships, honest (not idealized) portraits of illness and sexuality.
• “It is a very beautifully written book. If you guys are a fan of podmother, you’ll be a fan of this.” —Matt (90:08)

Bookshop.org listing for Ali’s novel

Final Thoughts

• The 2025 Kiss of the Spider Woman film is a slick, well-produced entry with standout moments and strong performances, but its lack of risk, reduction of musical invention, and indecisive tone leave it in the muddled middle: neither a must-see nor a disaster.
• Fans are encouraged to revisit the original cast recording, the stage show, and explore the source novel.

Closing Diva: Cheetah Rivera, as requested (92:02)

For More

• Subscribe to Broadway Breakdown on Substack
• Follow Matt and Ali: @mykoplik (Matt) | @missalicenutting (Ali)

End of Summary.