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- [00:16]
A
None of it seems to matter anymore.
- [00:22]
B
Like a comet.
- [00:38]
A
Hello, all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. Welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history un Legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And this is a review episode of one and only Wicked Good. And my guest today, you may know him from Hamilton, from UNT Juliet. You might know him from his first appearance on TV in Moesha. Yes, I did. Look at that at IMDb. But let's be real. Or his own podcast, Tactful Pettiness with Cody Rigsby. But after today, you're gonna know him from this podcast. So please welcome to the stage, Andrew Chappelle. Hello, Andrew.
- [01:19]
B
Oh, my gosh. Insert applause here.
- [01:23]
A
Cheers. Standing ovation. My lord.
- [01:25]
B
I love your intro. I think the idea of a DL Broadway Stan is. It's very niche and I think has the seeds of a really great Law and SVU episode premise.
- [01:37]
A
Absolutely. Law and SRO is what it's going to be called. Yeah, I can.
- [01:41]
B
Yeah, I could. I could just see some really good lines coming, you know, from the studio. This DL person, we can't go down.
- [01:48]
A
This rabbit hole too much because we've got. We've got a full movie to talk about, but I do kind of have. Take qualm with the quote unquote cool theater kid. Like, the person who's like, I do theater, but I'm a cool guy. I'm like, no, theater's not really cool. It's awesome. I love it so much. Like, it's inherently a very passionate thing to do. So when people are like, I'm too cool for school, I'm like, you're in Les Mis. You're not too cool for school. Just, like, be. Be a nerd like me. It's fine. It's okay.
- [02:15]
B
Well, you know, that's. That you raise a really interesting point, because when I was reading all of the paperwork you sent before this podcast, which, by the way, wow, you are very thorough. Which. A very theater kid of you.
- [02:30]
A
Yeah.
- [02:32]
B
You have an outline. Okay. But I was, like, thinking about my relationship to Wicked and how when I discovered Wicked, I was a theater nerd. Like, big time. Big time. Like, I remember, like, the first time I listened to the. I was. I went to my friend's house, and he was, like, talking about A Chorus Line, and I'd never heard of A Chorus Line, and he was like, oh, you have to listen to it. And he gave me the CD and I put it in my Discman. Yes, that's the era that I'm in. And the sleepover was done. I was listening to Chorus Line for the rest of the night. And that was the kind of kid I was. And that is about the same era that I found out about Wicked. I remember one of my high school classmates had taken a trip to New York, and he saw Avenue Q, he saw Assassins, and he saw Wicked. And he was explaining to us the end of Act One. And he was like, she rises, she's flying, but her cape takes over the entire stage. And I was just like, I have to see this. I have to see this. Fast forward to me now. I feel like I actually am a little bit more like that person that you just described.
- [03:45]
A
The. I'm a cool theater. I'm not like a regular theater.
- [03:48]
B
I'm a cool mom, you know, I prefer to get you to drink inside of the house. I still do love performing in musicals, but I can't say that I'm like, coming home and listening to Dear Evan Hansen after I leave work. Sure.
- [04:04]
A
I think when it becomes your life for so long, when I talk about the cool thing, it's not like, oh, you don't listen to musical theater on your days off, but when it's. When it's sort of around you all the time. Yeah. Like, you want to respite from it. You want to listen to other stuff, you want to watch other stuff. You can't make it your whole identity because there's so a. There's so much in the world to expose yourself to and explore. But also, you. Sometimes you need a break from the stuff. I do this now full time. And I won't lie to you. Like, I get food poisoning from shows a lot. And I come home and I'm like, I want brain rot. I'm gonna watch British Bake off, and I'm gonna listen to Sabrina Carpenter, and I'm not going to listen to a single vibrato for a week. And that is. So. I absolutely hear you on that. I will say, when did you finally see Wickhead on the stage?
- [04:52]
B
Okay, so I didn't. I did not get to see it in New York. Although I'm jealous. My boyfriend got to see the original cast.
- [04:59]
A
So did I, and.
- [05:00]
B
Oh, did you really?
- [05:01]
A
This is. Guys, this is where we tell you I am Andrew Chappelle's boyfriend. Hard launch. Hard see.
- [05:06]
B
Oh, my God, you guys. I didn't get to see. I didn't get to see Wicked until it came to LA and I got to see Stephanie J. Block.
- [05:19]
A
That's a good one to see.
- [05:20]
B
I. I mean, I've been a Stephanie J. Block fan since Boy From Oz. I saw her as Liza Minnelli, and I just. I've always responded to, like, hefty voices.
- [05:33]
A
Yeah.
- [05:33]
B
You know, I just, like, love, like, a big. A thick voice.
- [05:37]
A
Yeah.
- [05:38]
B
And she's got that. And I mean, also to hear her whole story, her relationship to Wicked and how. I believe she did the early workshops of Wicked when they were workshopping it in la. So it was, like, kind of a nice. It was nice to see her do the role. But I remember in college, so I went to CCM for musical theater, and we were obsessed with Wicked. And when we were at school, Shoshana Bean was playing Elphaba. And so we. Of course, we know that was back when YouTube was like. I mean, I guess YouTube is huge now, but it felt even bigger to us then. And we would go to the dorm room and we would watch Eden Espinosa defying Gravity. Eden Espinosa, no good deed. Shoshana Bean, wizard or die. Shoshana Bean. No good deed. Like, and we would just, like, memorize the riffs, and then we would take it one step step further. And one of my classmates would call the stage door and ask, is Shoshana Bean playing Elphaba tonight? And. And then we would like, either hear yes or no, and we would be like, okay, great, she's playing tonight. This is good. She's on. That's how nerdy we were first.
- [06:49]
A
I fucking love that. Cause, you guys, it's not like you could even see the show. You were just like, we wanna know, is she working tonight? She's working.
- [06:53]
B
Yeah. We just wanted to be. We wanted to be informed about the. About her attendance.
- [06:57]
A
Thank. Thank you ever so much, sir, for your. For your service.
- [06:59]
B
How lucky that audience was to get to see her and hear her.
- [07:02]
A
Absolutely. I saw Wicked the week before it opened with the entire original company. I then saw it that following August. And then I didn't see it again on stage until Post Covid, where I saw a very lovely, very talented replacement cast. But listeners of the podcast had asked me, oh, was it just as magical as the first time you saw it? And I said, no disrespect to the actors in that stage who were very talented, working very hard. But no, it's not the same, because when I first saw it, 1800 people never heard Defying Gravity before. You cannot replicate that now. 1800 people. If you're lucky. 500 people in that theater have never heard Defying Gravity, but usually you're talking about 80 to 90% know it. And especially now with these movies, everyone's like, going and being like, okay, let's see how this girl flies today. So you just can't replicate that. But what I loved about the first movie was Defying Gravity was able to capture that energy again for me. I remember when Cynthia Erivo sang that anymore and you heard, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. I started to get choked up. And my mom was like, are you okay? And I said, yes, it's just. It's the song. And I had no other way to describe it other than that. Where did you see Wicked Part 1? When it came out?
- [08:16]
B
I was with my boyfriend in Houston for Thanksgiving. And so we went with his dad and saw it downtown Houston. And then I saw it again, like, the next, like, I think three days later with Jasmine Cephas Jones in LA in a better theater. Cause the sound in Houston at the Houston theater was not giving. And I was just like, I need the sound to really hit for me.
- [08:38]
A
Yeah, no, it needs to enter. Enter you. What did. What did your boyfriend's dad think of the movie otherwise?
- [08:45]
B
Joe, did your dad like Wicked? His dad was lukewarm on it.
- [08:49]
A
That's okay. He's allowed to be. We did do a review episode of the first part a year ago, and much as I enjoyed it, I did have some qualms with it. So I do understand where people can be a little tepid on it.
- [09:01]
B
You had qualms with Part one?
- [09:02]
A
I did. I did nothing that was bad. More that I thought things I. My big thing with movie musicals right now is I feel like pacing is an issue. I had just. I've just done an episode on Chicago for the podcast and rewatching Chicago, I'm reminded of how fucking airtight that movie is and which that show is.
- [09:25]
B
Airtight.
- [09:25]
A
It is. But the thing about the movie of Chicago that they do that I'm surprised more movie musicals don't do now is when a number ends in Chicago, the. The button of it is a sound cue for the next scene so there's no room for applause. You just go right into the next thing. And I really like that it keeps the momentum going. And there are times in Wicked and Wicked for Good where I really wanted that to happen, just to kind of keep the momentum going, because it's for me. Wicked Part one, there was nothing that I would cut, but there was just air that I would like to sort of suck out. I felt like I like the air in things. Like the dancing through life when they dance together. That moment I'm like, let her breathe. But other moments where I'm like, I wanted us to get to wizard and I a little bit faster. I wanted us to get to one short day a little bit faster.
- [10:11]
B
See the thing. Okay, so this is what I really enjoyed about the format of these two movies was that. And this only became clear to me when I went to go see Lincia in Wicked when she had her debut as Elphaba. I had, you know, seen Wicked Part 1 twice at this. Twice or three times at this point. But I hadn't seen the stage show since like 2019 maybe. Oh, no, not true. 2022, 2023. Anyway. And it occurred to me how fast paced the Broadway show is like, I mean, that thing is going boom, boom. We're here, we're here, we're here. The lights are up here. The lights are up here. And in that moment I was just like, oh. I actually feel like they were so smart to put the pauses into the movie. Because when I think About Wicked Part 1 and Part 2, while it is a musical, I feel like they formatted it more like an epic like a Harry Potter or a Lord of the Rings style film where, like, when you sit down to watch Harry Potter, like, you know you're gonna be sitting there for over two hours, like, get yourself ready to like go into another land. And so what I really enjoyed about part one in particular, and we'll get to part two, of course, was like, just. Just going to your point about how, like, if you go to see Wicked now, most of the people have heard these songs before. These movies have given us a gift by showing us things, us wicked fans for 20 something years, showing us new scenes, going into new characters, new places. Because it's like if they just mounted what we've seen on Broadway forever, which I think is like closer to what Chicago does. Even though they did the whole like, you know, jailer mind thing, like, and that. That music is conceptual anyway. Like, if they did just kind of like a direct transfer, I think it wouldn't have been as big of a smash because there's just so much to chew on in this world from the book and from, you know, there's just so much.
- [12:21]
A
Oh, absolutely. I think what. What the movies get right, first and foremost is making sure the music is well taken care of. Every song sounds fantastic. And if there's one. Yeah, exactly. And there's one thing About Wicked, that, like, you know, there are. The show has its bumps as. As does Wicked for Good, but the one thing that keeps it all together, that keeps it iconic, is that that music, you can be an esoteric, fuck all you want, but, like, that music hits in a way that is chemical. And so when you're doing the movie, you have to make sure that those songs are treated well. And I think most of those songs have been treated extraordinarily well, and that is important to me.
- [13:01]
B
Pippa turned to me during thank Goodness. And I was her date. We went to the premiere together. What is Time? I don't even know when that was here in New York. And she turns to me during thinking, Goodness, she goes, that sounds like hundreds of people singing. And I think it probably was like, maybe like 75 people singing, but then their vocals doubled. Like, it's just. It sounded tremendous.
- [13:28]
A
Yeah, yeah. Very, very full, and I appreciate it greatly. I love the lush old school. This is a movie element of that. I did not get to go to the premiere of Wicked for good. They kept begging me to go.
- [13:47]
B
No. When I was there, they were asking, like, where is Matt?
- [13:50]
A
Yeah, I was. I was. I was busy that day. I. Okay, yeah, I was. I was. I was busy. No, but, yes, I.
- [13:57]
B
You were missed. I mean, many, many. I heard a lot of people asking where Matt was.
- [14:02]
A
Yeah. Cynthia Erivo didn't have laryngitis. She wasn't speaking out that I wasn't there.
- [14:07]
B
Correct. Yeah.
- [14:08]
A
She said. Yeah. She said, if that voice comes, put her foot down.
- [14:10]
B
She said, enough is enough.
- [14:12]
A
Not here.
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B
I will not do an interview.
- [14:15]
A
What would you say was your biggest highlight from For Good Seeing music? Whatever.
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B
You know, I think. I think you're talking about, like, the material, not my experiencing. Seeing the film.
- [14:28]
A
Yeah, yeah. Not what happened in the theater, but you in the movie itself. What was the highlight for you?
- [14:32]
B
Well, I think there are no notes to be given for the way that they presented no good deed, period. I mean, no good deed had me feeling the way I felt the first time I saw Wicked and Defying Gravity ended. And then the lights go down and then they come up and it's intermission, and everyone's like, that's the way I felt after no Good Deed. So I would say the highlight for me in the movie was no good deed.
- [15:03]
A
Wonderful.
- [15:05]
B
What was yours?
- [15:08]
A
Well, I don't know if it was a specific number or moment. I do feel I have absolutely no notes for Ms. Ariana Grande and her performance. I thought that she was pretty exquisite in This. I thought she was equally heartbreaking and funny and sounded beautiful. I think my biggest highlight, actually, was because it was a new moment. I did not find all of the inclusions of Dorothy worked for me. There's that one shot when the monkeys grab her from the troupe, and it's like a POV shot of her flying in the air and you see her feet dangling in the frame. I wasn't a very big fan of that shot. It reminded me of those simulation rides at Disney World where you're on the Avatar rides, but when Glinda's with Morrible and it's the wizards leaving in the balloon and you see Dorothy in the distance being like, wait for me. Wait. Don't go away in the balloon. And Ariana Grande just goes, ugh. It's always something with that girl. And I just thought that that was very, very funny. And so that was. That was a big moment for me. I would say no good deed and for good were probably my two biggest musical highlights. I loved how thank Goodness sounded. I thought Ariana sounded great. I wanted a bit more movement from the ensemble in it. I didn't like how stationary they were because the only movement came from those women in pink who were like. I don't know what you would call them.
- [16:24]
B
Those, like, bubble ball girls. Yeah, yeah. And, yeah.
- [16:28]
A
Interpretive dancing with the balls. I wanted. I want. Because what I love in this stage show is sort of like the constant twirling that the ensemble does.
- [16:37]
B
The coats. Everybody's slipping discs in their backs because the asymmetrical coat is there. They're dancing on a rake and going like this.
- [16:43]
A
Exactly.
- [16:44]
B
Everyone is now in wheelchairs. Yeah. But not Nessa.
- [16:47]
A
No, no, no. Not NASA. Nessa's no longer in the wheelchair. I. I guess I don't want this to be an overly negative episode because I did have a lot of qualms with this film, but I also think I did. I wasn't. I did not enjoy Wicked Witch of the east in this film. I just did not like the. Yeah. And again. But I can. I'm. I'm. I can talk about why. Because I. My big thing is, you cannot like something, but you have to talk about it. It can't just be. She was bad. End of story. Because I don't think that's conducive to conversation.
- [17:25]
B
Yeah. What stuck out for you?
- [17:28]
A
Well, so, again, I always. That scene has always been fun for me on stage because Nessa, as little stage time as she has, I always found to be a very fascinating character. In the musical of a young woman who could have so much in life because she's beautiful, she's, you know, well liked, she's well connected. But because she is, you know, wheelchair user, she defines herself by this part of her. Of her body. And she projects that everyone else pities her because of it, which is, I think, a very human thing to do. When we all. When we all have things about ourselves that we're insecure about, we put in our head that it's all everyone else sees.
- [18:07]
B
All trapped in our own mind.
- [18:08]
A
Yes, exactly. And of course, there's been conversation about an ableist narrative with Nessa, with that. And I think maybe in the film I would have liked the opportunity to keep that element of Nessa's character because it's a very human flaw that we all have not of to define ourselves by the things that we can't do and that everyone else thinks less of us for. But having that not be the case for other characters like Bonak doesn't not love Nessa because she's in a wheelchair. He doesn't love Nessa because he's in love with Glinda. And that is the hard fact. And so I always appreciate it in Wicked Witch of the east, when she's able to. To walk. Now, she still doesn't get what she wants, which is Bach. And we watch how she turns because she and Elphaba both get the label Wicked Witch. But Nessa actually earns her label because she's entrapping the munchkins in Munchkin Land. She's becoming into the travel band.
- [19:01]
B
She invented the travel ban.
- [19:03]
A
She invented the travel ban. But she did also invent the black chic, simple look. I mean, Michelle Federer with that tight ass bun, I'm like, she may be evil, but she looks fierce.
- [19:14]
B
I mean, she looks like Foska.
- [19:16]
A
Yeah.
- [19:18]
B
She'S a young Foska. Nothing is original. Everything is, is, is recycled. She looks like Donna Murphy, who is sitting behind me, by the way, at the premiere. I was so gagged.
- [19:30]
A
Donna Murphy, I would love to see what her marble would look like.
- [19:33]
B
But yeah, Murphy would eat the way.
- [19:36]
A
She would do that Wicked Witch speech, my lord.
- [19:39]
B
The go to text. She would go to text.
- [19:43]
A
Go to text.
- [19:44]
B
But.
- [19:45]
A
But again, Nessa is, is Foska with the glow up. But what I remembered about Michelle Federer because she had this sort of this ingenue esque timbre to her voice that made you really want the best for her. And so when she takes that hard turn in Wicked Witch of the East, I'll never forget her sobbing when Chris Fitzgerald was like, I, I need to go see Glinda. And she goes to the desk and she. I remember she, like, put her head down in her hands and then he said, I lost my. Know that. And then I just remember Michelle's face going, boom. And the music going. And I was like, oh, shit, what's she gonna do? And I didn't get that. In this. In the movie, I didn't. It felt like they didn't want to let Nessa go full blown bitch because they didn't want a backlash about that. And I'm sort of like, she's more interesting if she goes that route, especially because, like, she needs to earn the title Wicked Witch of the east because she. She also gets that. So if in this film, if she's dying two hours later from that cyclone, her evil legacy is the travel ban, which at that point is like four days old. And for me, that's not quite enough.
- [20:50]
B
Yeah, I think, you know. Yeah. I think that the role, the actual part of Nessa Rose is just. It's a tough part. It is, because it's one of those parts where you have to, as the, like, the person who is playing the part, really figure out your through line because you don't have a ton of stage time. And, like, you figure out, like, where you're, where you sit. I think what I'm hearing from you is this classic issue that we have now with Beyonce's Internet, which is like, everyone's worried about getting canceled. Everyone's worried about how is this gonna play, who's gonna come after us, what's the hashtag gonna be? And I'm not super tuned in to all of the minutiae about why she didn't walk. I do remember hearing if they make her walk, this is gonna be, you know, people are gonna be really upset about it.
- [21:45]
A
Yeah.
- [21:46]
B
And look, if people are gonna be upset, then they. They are allowed to be upset.
- [21:50]
A
I mean, that's the world. You get upset by something every day that's being alive.
- [21:54]
B
Yeah, I'm upset right now.
- [21:56]
A
Yeah, you're regretting being on this podcast every second. My God.
- [22:01]
B
But there is that weird thing that happens when you make art, when you are a little too tuned into the possibilities of somebody else's opinion. And then you have someone walk away from the movie like you did, being like, I feel like maybe that could have been a little bit more intense. So, you know, you kind of end up losing both battles because it's like those people weren't offended, but they're also like, maybe not even the core audience. And then you have people who are the core audience who are, like, feeling a little gypped.
- [22:36]
A
But. And I think that's sort of the problem, as you were saying, when you're trying to make art that doesn't offend anyone. Like, you don't want to get canceled. You're out of fear. Right. It's hard to make something that packs a punch. The. The things that you do, you have to do with your full chest. And it's going to rub someone the wrong way because there are 7 billion people in the world, and everyone has a different walk of life, a different experience. Someone's going to get offended by it. Someone's going to accept. Get upset by it.
- [23:03]
B
That's their.
- [23:05]
A
That's their journey. For example, I'm sure there's someone listening to this right now who's like, I'm sorry, I thought Wicked Witch of the east ate in the movie. And that is fabulous for you. Thank you. Love that for them. But that is sort of. That is what we're doing here, is we talk about things that have come out in the world, and once a piece of art, whether it's film or theater, once it is released, it belongs to the people now who are absorbing it. And every take is gonna be a little bit different. And that's why we have podcasts like this, Andrew, where we have conversations.
- [23:33]
B
You know, this reminds me of when we were doing Hamilton downtown and then in previews uptown. Tommy, the director, was really good about insulating us from all of the chatter, which, like, I think was really helpful to us as we were all putting it together because we weren't really thinking about what other people were saying for the most part. It also did this weird thing to us where, like, a lot of us didn't realize really the magnitude of the show until the Tony Awards this year at the 10th anniversary when we were, like, standing on stage and people were like, like, Oprah Winfrey was, like, crying, and we were like, oh, like, you guys really liked this. Wow. You know, like.
- [24:21]
A
And so now he learns.
- [24:23]
B
Yeah, yeah, we live and we learn for sure.
- [24:26]
A
Yeah, but. And the thing about Wicked is when the show came out, it was not well received and audiences kind of went with their guts of what they enjoyed. People like us went. I don't know. I read Ben Bramley's review, but I gotta say, something about this really hit for me. Even with stuff that doesn't maybe objectively work when you're watching it and you get wrapped up in it. Something hits a chemical part of your body which is I think a magic of musicals.
- [24:54]
B
Well, and it's also playing on one of the most famous movies ever made. You know that everyone is like the cult following of just the wizard of Oz alone is enough to intrigue you as to what this, this movie is about.
- [25:08]
A
Yeah.
- [25:09]
B
Story is about.
- [25:11]
A
Yeah. But I think that's also kind of one of the points of contention for a lot of people about Act 2 and with this movie with the tie ins to wizard of Oz. Because this is not bothered by that.
- [25:22]
B
They really were bothered about how much wizard of Oz was tied in.
- [25:25]
A
Yeah, well, and that's something that I guess. Okay.
- [25:29]
B
You're one of those people, aren't you?
- [25:31]
A
No, I'm not.
- [25:31]
B
I'm not.
- [25:32]
A
I'm.
- [25:32]
B
Nothing was said to leave.
- [25:34]
A
Let her live. I like Dorothy, but I'm. But I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. What I will say is I had an epiphany watching the second movie because act two has all the same issues that, that the movie has that people are complaining about. And for me, Act 2 on stage works a little bit better, I think because it's so quick. As you were saying before, like the stage show keeps moving and when you don't allow yourself enough that much time to like sit and stew with something, you don't have enough time to really think things over. You're just, you're along for the ride. It's something. I talk about this a lot with Phantom of the Opera. The original production famously has like two applause breaks. The rest of the show moves like a movie. And I do think it's because hell Prince went, if this audience stops to think about the plot for five seconds, they are going to jump off this train immediately. We have to. It was also.
- [26:21]
B
It was the 80s. Everybody was doing coke and drinking chardonnay. You know what I mean? Like Cats was a big, big deal. Are we not doing that anymore? Oh well, no. Now I'm just drinking chardonnay. And that's also. And that's a big. And that's a big part I like with Act 2. Like Wicked has. Right, Listen, the art, there's no art that's perfect. There's always going to be something here or there that people can like be be like, oh well what happened here? Like this doesn't make sense. And it's like, all right, well babe, then you write it. But I do think what like going off of what you just Said, when you go to see Wicked on stage, you are born just completely aghast. At the end of act one, you're. You're catching your breath, even if you've seen it before. You're like, wow, that's a beast. Right? And then you have 15 minutes to go to the bathroom and get a chardonnay and get back to your seat. So the adrenaline is, like, pumping. You're like, okay, I've got things to do. And especially if you're a seasoned theater goer, like you and I, you know how you're. How you're getting all that done.
- [27:25]
A
Yeah.
- [27:26]
B
And so your. Your body, your, like, spirit rhythm, hasn't had time to, like, rest. You're. You're still moving forward so that when act two starts, you're like, okay. And then there's nothing, like a good downbeat to, like, hook you back into the story. But what I felt like they did really good about with this, with the second installment of the movie, was they basically gave us the opening of a Superman film. Like, I was sitting there and I. The first image started with those animals, and I said, now, what is this, honey? You know? And while at first I did not understand it, I did like that it was unfamiliar. It made me pay attention. Because if it had just started the way it starts on stage, I would have been like, okay, guys, here we go. This time I was like, what is happening? And then when I saw they were building the brick road, and I turned to Pippa, I said, what are these animals? And then she has this, like, hybrid Batman, Superman opening. Because it was, I think, so smart to kind of frame her like a superhero in that way. She's got this, like, amazing, like, magical villain backstory, but that we know isn't villainous, but she's misunderstood. And now she's, you know, righting the wrongs of this, you know, tyrannical person, which I feel like we need it. I think that was what I'm. The chatter I'm hearing on the Internet, some of the things that people are saying they didn't love about this movie. I'm like, you know, if you're gonna do Act 2 of Wicked, and you've got, like, millions and millions of dollars, and Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo are there, and, like, the set is built. You might as well give us as much as you can, you know, like, if they filled in. Listen, to their credit, they filled in a lot of blanks in this Part two.
- [29:23]
A
I like this image you have of Jon M. Chu on set being like, well, we already built a set, so.
- [29:28]
B
We'Ve got the tulips. So, like, we gotta do something else. In this tulip field, we have the tulips. We had these people in Amsterdam planning these tulips for a year.
- [29:40]
A
When there was that close up of the tulips towards the end. I think it was after the melting scene, around the time when Glinda was coming back to the Emerald City. There was that close up of the tulips of, like, oh, they made sure to get that shot in. They're like, we planted a million tulips, and, my God, we will show them again.
- [29:56]
B
And now everybody knows they're real, real tulips. So, like, now they can really, like, revisit the tulips.
- [30:01]
A
Absolutely. I liked the beginning. I. That was another. That whole first section for me. Pre thank Goodness was another moment. I was like, I like everything we're doing. I just. Like, if I were in the editing room, I would have gone into, like, shave off a second here, shave off a second there. Because it was a full 10 minutes before we got to thank Goodness. So I liked it. It incorporated what Elphaba's been up to. I did like that the movie showed more of Elphaba's efforts to try to, you know, help liberate the animals. I thought that was a nice touch because in the stage show, because there's not a lot of time, she's kind of. She kind of forgets about it after a while.
- [30:36]
B
They really drill down on her with these animals in the second part.
- [30:39]
A
She really loved them animals.
- [30:41]
B
She was full snow white in that forest scene.
- [30:44]
A
Yeah.
- [30:44]
B
And those animals say, honey, forget about you. You can sing at us all we want. We. We. That lion told us what you did to him. You took him out his cage. And I said, why is this lion. This lion is over here complaining. This is one of those. The lion is one of those people that's always complaining about something. He's a parent. Like in a musical theater program, they're like, it's hot in here. And then you turn the cool air and, like, it's cold. My hamstring is tight. And you're like, girl, then go outside. Yeah, can't sing today.
- [31:13]
A
I think I have nodes. It's like, yeah, it's always something you do.
- [31:15]
B
And still you need to sing on them. We all have nodes. Everybody get with the program. And it was so funny because all those animals, they weren't in cages. And then they were just like, well, yeah, I can't believe you did that. To that lion. I said, this lion is in the woods with you. And he would have still been in a cage. Spoiler alert. In the wizard's sex dungeon if she hadn't released him. Is that not a back room?
- [31:41]
A
I said, just call it Sondheim's sex.
- [31:43]
B
Dungeon where he had all those animals. Honey. Chained up. I said, that wizard is coming in here and doing all kind of nasty shit to these animals.
- [31:50]
A
Yep.
- [31:51]
B
I mean, look so scared. They look so hungry.
- [31:53]
A
I was gonna say, I wish I had seen an eagle in there. Because then I would have been like, oh, that's a hat on a hat. Oh, the eagle. Yeah.
- [31:59]
B
There are a lot of chestnuts in this movie.
- [32:01]
A
Very. Yes. There are Easter eggs that people don't even realize are eggs. The what I was gonna say, oh, the thing with the lion, that's always been something that people have kind of come for as like, but why is he mad? And I understand, I think I, I, I think I understand why what they were going for of the, of the sort of no good deed goes unpunished. Right. Of like, she tries to do a good thing, but it doesn't matter. The propaganda against her has gotten so out of control that even the people she's tried to help think the worst of her. But I, I don't think they ever really were able to land the plane with that narrative for the lion because it's so quick and because people like us go, I remember where you were at. Don't try to gaslight me. I saw, I saw what had happened in that moment. And she did, she did know evil. But it's, it's. I under, I think I. That is what they're trying to do.
- [32:47]
B
Oh, go ahead.
- [32:48]
A
I also, I was, I had an issue with the two new songs both being ballads because act two was so ballad heavy already. And I wanted there to be a moment for some kind of.
- [32:58]
B
I agree with you on this. I wanted, I wanted there to be some like up tempo moments. But I think that they had to give them ballads because everyone's trying to go for these statues. Yeah, everyone with a statue on the wall.
- [33:11]
A
I know, but there have been some bops that have won in the past and it's looking like golden from K Pop Demon Hunters. That's probably gonna take the statue this year. And that is a full blown high belted bop. I mean, not since Pippa, who I don't know, but I call her Pippa myself. Not since Pippa's high note and no one else have I heard such a high Note in musical theater. Have you heard golden from K Pop Demon Hunters?
- [33:34]
B
Maybe. I don't know. My podcast co host Cody Rigsby is obsessed with K Pop Demon Hunters and have tried to watch K Pop Demon Hunters now three times and I just can't get through it. And. And it's one of those moments where I'm like, oh, I wish I could get through this. And at the same time I'm like, do I? Does it say more about me just like as an adult that I'm like, I can't get through this.
- [33:58]
A
You don't owe anybody anything to watch a movie. You know what I mean? I haven't actually watched it myself, but I have heard it. I have. I have a couple friend with an 11 year old kid. Hi, Steve. Hi Patrick. Hi, Daisy. Daisy loves K Pop Demon Hunters. And Alex, I have gone over there on numerous times where she has been playing the movie and so I've heard Golden a few times. And I will say she. She is a bop. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Freddy. The top of the movie. When. When Elphaba is singing her reprise of wizard and I, you know, when I. When I expose the wizard and everyone knows he's a fraud. You know that much.
- [34:41]
B
Which was new.
- [34:42]
A
Which is new. Yes.
- [34:43]
B
As in I like that.
- [34:45]
A
I did too. I thought that though could have been a good inspiration for a new song for Elphaba of showing us all the time she's trying to. Almost like a precursor to no good deed. Of like her making this effort constantly of like trying to liberate, trying to expose the wizard and not going well. But like, I will still try. I will still do it.
- [35:01]
B
And then it becomes another I want song.
- [35:03]
A
Exactly.
- [35:04]
B
I want song.
- [35:05]
A
A second. I want song for. For part two that then kind of has a response to like it's the call to. And the response is no good deed. Of like, I will do the good deed. Yeah. And I. That's.
- [35:15]
B
Yeah.
- [35:16]
A
It would have given us a nice energetic moment for Girl in the Bubble. I. My issue with that is I thought March of the Witch Hunters was such an energetic slay in this movie. Like I really was feeling the pulsation of that. Of that moment. And also like Ethan Slater just eating breakfast, lunch and dinner with his solo. And then when it kind of stopped for Girl in the Bubble, I was a little Frustrated. And what I wanted instead was I wanted March of the Witch Hunters to reach this fever pitch that Glinda runs to Madame Morrible and is like, we have to stop this. And Morrible's like, absolutely not. And in that chaotic moment, that's when Glinda's like, God, what do I do? Does Girl in the Bubble and have that actually also reach to a belted fever pitch that launches her onto the horse to go see Elphaba. So, like, it can still be a ballad, but it reaches a nice, like, exciting conclusion because something that I thought.
- [36:06]
B
You'Re such a musical theater gang, you just want the girls to belt everything to add in a giant belt. To do the split, like Sutton Foster and Drowsy Chaperone.
- [36:21]
A
Yeah.
- [36:22]
B
You're like, you know, in Girl in the Bubble, it would have been great if she could have figured out a way to do a cartwheel into a split while belting a G. No.
- [36:28]
A
That's what I wanted from Nesteros when I wanted Nesteros out of that chair and going into a split.
- [36:33]
B
I want to be. This is good that you bring about. About Nessa Rose, because, like, I, you know, I don't. I don't want people, you know, to. To be offended by, you know, something like this. Right. But why was she. She just was levitating, like, you know what I mean? Okay, like, fine. You don't want her to walk. Fine. But they just kind of, like, lifted her up, and she was just kind of, like, hovering there like the Ghost of Christmas past. And I'm like, elphaba, let her twirl around the room. Let her, like. Like, feel what it feels like to fly a little bit. She was just kind of like, yeah.
- [37:08]
A
I'm not sure what the magic was supposed to be or what it was supposed to mean for her. She talked about, like, I want to go back to the moment when Bach said I was beautiful at the dance. And we, as audience members are watching it, going. But that moment was false. He wasn't in love with you. He was acting. Yeah, he was acting like, I know.
- [37:25]
B
That moment felt lying. Like all men.
- [37:27]
A
Like all men. He was acting. Yes. Lying about everything. What I was gonna say about the wizard of Oz stuff, though, was, the more I think about it, the more I realize that Wicked, both on stage and in the film, doesn't really want you to remember the wizard of Oz, the book, or the movie intricately. Like, they want you to remember, like, the basics of it. Because when you think about the actual intricacies of the movie and the wonderful wizard of Oz novel, a lot of it doesn't necessarily line up. It's more sort of like a clever tie in, in theory. But then when you, like, give it another minute, there's that. There's that video that goes around every couple of weeks ever since the first movie came out of Judy Garland as Dorothy in the dungeon being like, I'm friend and, yeah, my friend, like, genuine tears in her eyes. And the caption is like imagining for good being sung like, a floor above her as this is happening. It's true. Like, she. She throws Dorothy in the dungeon, and five minutes later, they're singing for good. And it's. Your brain just is thinking of, like, Judy Garland sobbing on the floor while this is happening. I mean, that's the fun of it. But that's also like. I think that's where people who maybe didn't know the stage show watch this movie, and they know wizard of Oz so well that they like. To them, they're going, that does. That's not a real, like, tie in. That's a retcon. And I say no. And so I've always viewed it as, like, you just kind of have to, like, have the.
- [38:41]
B
Just go with it, hon. Yeah. It's a movie about witches and magic. It's gonna be okay.
- [38:46]
A
It's all fine. It's just a movie. It won't hurt you. But because the stage show kind of keeps moving, like, the reveal of Bok being the Tinman and all that stuff, it happens so quickly. It doesn't give you enough time to stop and ponder and think, wait a second. In wizard of Oz, what does happen in that moment? It's like, nope, you can't think about that. We're already at the engagement scene for Fiyero and Glynda. I did like that they incorporated Glynda in. Wonderful. I thought that was really nice tie in.
- [39:11]
B
Yeah.
- [39:11]
A
Yeah.
- [39:11]
B
That was important.
- [39:12]
A
Yeah. I think it helped with the almost seduction of bringing Elphaba to that side of the conversation. Yeah.
- [39:19]
B
Yeah. Also, I thought Cynthia did a really good job of, like, building that out. Like, she did really consider it.
- [39:25]
A
Yeah, well. Cause I always viewed it as. At that point, Elphaba is just so exhausted of fighting what is clearly a losing battle. And part of her is, like, it would be easier to just do this. And maybe, like, Glynda's saying that she's trying to work the good from the inside. Maybe I can, too. And then seeing, like, oh, no, there is no good on the inside, like, Glinda's just complicit in all of this as well. And how that she like, wants her friend there.
- [39:48]
B
She was like, come on, it's not so bad.
- [39:50]
A
Yeah, be my girlfriend again. Let us be full on lesbians this time. We can do it for real now. I did like the, the glowing of the. Of the tower as well. And then I did like sort of the upping the stakes of it's. They're not just engaged anymore. Like they're about to get married.
- [40:06]
B
Yes, honey. Left at the altar. It was giving a stampede in the Pride Lands.
- [40:12]
A
It was. What was it?
- [40:13]
B
It was giving crazy rich Asians wedding.
- [40:15]
A
Yes. Death.
- [40:18]
B
No. Yeah, with meets Mufasa's death ending with Cinderella with the shoe in. In into the woods.
- [40:26]
A
1,000%.
- [40:27]
B
I think Ariana also did like the like the famous like Gen Z thing where like when she cried, she was like, like, is that a Gen Z.
- [40:33]
A
Thing covering your mouth when you cry?
- [40:36]
B
A Gen Z thing?
- [40:37]
A
Yeah. You said the Gen Z thing of the.
- [40:39]
B
Yeah. Like, I feel like Gen Z. Like you guys are always like. Like I feel like you guys are always covering your mouths. Like when you laugh, when you cry, when something's awkward or embarrassing. You guys are like, yeah, they.
- [40:50]
A
They either say it's cringe or they cover their mouths. Yeah. I wonder what that's about. Do they want to bottle up their emotions? Are they afraid to let it all out?
- [40:57]
B
Ask your people. Or are we. Are you. You're not Gen Z. You're millennial.
- [41:02]
A
Do you think I was Gen Z?
- [41:03]
B
Yeah, I thought you were Gen Z.
- [41:05]
A
No, I'm millennial. I was born in 1990.
- [41:07]
B
Oh, that makes sense. Yeah. I mean, if you have a podcast, you're a millennial, first of all. Wow.
- [41:12]
A
What?
- [41:13]
B
Gen Z people have podcasts. I feel like they're like, that's too cool. I'm just putting on baggy jeans.
- [41:17]
A
You truly are a man. Because you were giving me such a compliment and then you back slapped me so hard and I don't know how you feel about me anymore.
- [41:27]
B
You also know I'm a man because I have a podcast.
- [41:30]
A
Yes, you do have a. Yes.
- [41:32]
B
Listen, if you're a millennial and a man, you definitely have a podcast.
- [41:35]
A
Yeah. But good luck to the rest of the world because there are just so many of us, us saying our opinions on Mike.
- [41:41]
B
Yeah. Whether you want to hear them or not. And like, and full disclosure, I'm doing this Wicked episode. Our Wicked episode for our podcast comes out the same day. So if you enjoyed this conversation, you could Get a double dose and listen to tactful Pettiness right after this. But listen to this one first.
- [41:56]
A
This is the out of town tryout, so Andrew can get his much clearer, Instagram worthy opinions out for his own podcast.
- [42:03]
B
Well, no, see, this is a more theater. This is a more theater theater, dramaturgical based discussion. Cody and I are gonna. We are. We're pop culture podcast, so. So our. The takes on that are gonna be very different.
- [42:14]
A
Okay, well then, pop culture for his moment. What character and wicked for good do you think is most likely to have a podcast?
- [42:23]
B
The Wizard.
- [42:24]
A
That's what I thought. But then I wondered, would he want. Would that spoil the, like, elusive illusion of him or would he not care?
- [42:32]
B
Oh, no, no. And I don't even think he would have guests on the podcast. I think he would just be, like. Just him. Like, Heather McMahon, like, just like, talking at his laptop.
- [42:40]
A
This is what I did today.
- [42:42]
B
Yeah. And, like, it's a great way to get propaganda out. There's also, like, probably no one else that has podcasting equipment in Oz.
- [42:49]
A
This is true.
- [42:50]
B
It would be the biggest podcast in all the land.
- [42:53]
A
Yeah. It would be the wizard of Pods, I guess is what it would be called. Although I wonder if. Would I want a wizard podcast, or do I just want more morning musings from Jeff Goldblum? Like, I want to know what that man thinks first hour of every day.
- [43:08]
B
Oh, I know. He's so kooky, right? He is.
- [43:10]
A
I really like his casting in this movie because I feel like the wizard is so hard to get. Right. Because he does have to have a sinister edge to him, but he also kind of has to have a warming first approach. Totally. Yeah. And sometimes people cast him too cuddly or they cast him too sinister. And Goldblum has that like, oh, my God, you're just like my weird uncle. But. But are you my weird uncle? Like, it's that.
- [43:35]
B
Yeah.
- [43:35]
A
Like, how. How SVU are we about to go here?
- [43:38]
B
Well, you know, when everybody's talking about all of these other people that auditioned for Elphaba and Glinda, I want to know the other men that were in for the Wizard. That's what I want to know. Because that list, I mean, even just like the list of men who played it on Broadway, like, a lot of those guys are big enough that could have. They could have done it in the movie.
- [43:54]
A
They absolutely could have.
- [43:55]
B
So I'm just like, so who else was it? Or was there no one else? Maybe it was always Jeff.
- [44:01]
A
Yeah, there's. There is a Wicked podcast out right now that's hosted by Chris Murphy. I listened to a little bit of it. They talked about the casting process a bit. They would not say who was in, who was coming in for a lot of the roles, but they did say that, like, there were a lot of Elphabas and Glindas. I don't think there were really many wizards, or if there were, it was like, very few. From what I understand, there was no other Morrible approach other than Michelle Yeoh. Jon M. Chu specifically wanted her.
- [44:30]
B
Oh, yes. We are very well versed in that particular plot point in the casting process with Wicked. Yeah.
- [44:35]
A
And I.
- [44:36]
B
They've really said that to us. They did not want to do the movie. They had to beg her multiple times to the point where they had to get on a zoom with the two lead actresses to continue to beg her, in which she finally said, well, okay.
- [44:53]
A
I'll beg you anything. It was like the president of the Academy got on the zoom as well and was like, like, I'm just saying, your movie is eligible for Oscars this year, and do you want to get nominated or not? Maybe do this movie, babe. But I, I, I do ponder who other Morribles could have been, because I like Michelle a lot. But I, this is not my movie for her. I don't think it's a match for this character. That's all I will say. And I watched her and I was like, you know, who would eat at this? Like, Glenn Close. And then someone else texted me and said, emma Thompson. And I was thinking, Emma Thompson and Cruella. I'm like, oh, Emma Thompson would have have annihilated telling Ariana Grande to shut up. Like, it just. You imagine you're like, who could give Drag Queen without being too much?
- [45:39]
B
Well, you know who I saw as, as Madame Morrible, who I also was on Moesha with, was Shirley Ralph. Shirley Ralph. That's a Mattamora ball.
- [45:50]
A
That is a Matamora.
- [45:51]
B
That's a, that's, that's like, she's, she's not giving full drag, but she's like, she's right on. She's right on the, on the, the line.
- [46:00]
A
Oh, Ms. Dina Jones absolutely knows how to toe the line for you. The woman who survived Michael Bennett knows how to give the gays what they want.
- [46:08]
B
Truly. And I mean, listen, when it comes to Madame Morrible, the limit does not exist. There are so many women who can play that role. And listen, we can dig up names till we are blue in the face, but those are not the names that did the role. So we are, we have what we have and we have to just accept this. And.
- [46:33]
A
There are other joys in this movie and there are other Michelle Yeoh joys. That is the fact.
- [46:38]
B
Well, absolutely, Absolutely. I mean, I, of course, I'm chronically online, so I've seen all of the takes about her in the movie and I think it just like. And I guess I can be like this too. People have to be upset about something. They have to scream into the void about something. But I just don't have the. I guess I don't have the energy. I'm like, you know, okay, like whatever.
- [47:03]
A
Very old. You're, you're, you're, you're Grandpa Jen's your grandpa. Millennial. I am baby Millennial. But I think for me it's less like, I get, I guess I get angry if I, if I can see potential and I feel like it's not realized. So it's less me being like you. I'm offended so much as I'm like, like, can we do another take? I really would love another take of this, but that's, that's neither here nor there.
- [47:25]
B
Books on you. That was the other take.
- [47:27]
A
That was. God damn it. I, I have tea about Carol Shelley's interpretation of Mad Morrible. And I won't say who told me this, but it was somebody who worked with Ms. Shelley on the, on the role. And this was not something that was openly expressed, but how Carol Shelley interpreted the role and she worked with the wig and costume department on this to create this narrative, is that Madame Morrible herself is part animal and in fact has animal tendencies that she is suppressing as the show continues. So when you first see her with her wig, she's got the like Mrs. Lovett buns that are hiding her hooves and, or her, her horns, that which she is shaving as the show continues. And you realize her wigs are getting smaller. So by the end of the show, she is just in the airtight.
- [48:16]
B
Ramen noodle.
- [48:17]
A
Yes. And by the end of the show they have been shaved down. But also in early scenes, every now and then she would have like a slip up. She would like do a snort or she would do like a thing. But it would. It's one of those things where you, you're not catching it. It's not obvious. But when she tells you what she's doing and you go back and watch, you're like, oh, I see it. It's very like Usual Suspects Sizer cos words you don't see it at all when you're watching it. And then you look back and you go, oh, there. There are the clues. And so that was. I'm sorry. This is.
- [48:47]
B
This is what I have really enjoyed about having these movies come out is like, all of the deep dives. You know, there was a video I saw of they, you know, do that moment in wizard, and I. When she goes to Celebration throughout Oz. It's all to do with me. And there's like, the projection on the wizard statue, and it's like, oh, it is the celebration, but it's that she's dead. And you're like, oh, my God, that's crazy. And, you know, I enjoy that everyone is, like, having fun with it. I think, really and truly, if you think about the spirit of this property and you think about the spirit of movies that come out at this time of year, it's all about community. It's about feeling good. It's about kind of just rediscovering something you love. And I think that was kind of the spirit I went into watching Wicked for good. Part two, you know, retrospective was just like, you know, let's just disassociate for two and a half hours and, like, be taken away into this new world, into another world, because, my goodness, do I want to be taken away into another world.
- [50:03]
A
Most days, yeah, that is. That is most days, indeed. I will say, when I was. I was very. There's an expectation that you can have over the years when you're being told, like, oh, one of your favorite shows is gonna get a movie version. You start imagining how it can go in your head. And truly, the best moments are when it doesn't go how you expect, but it works even better. And that is how I felt. I felt that way a lot about part one, where there were scenes where it was like, oh, I didn't. I didn't imagine that. But, like, I really like how they did that. And I knew Part one I was in good hands at the very beginning, when it didn't happen. Immediately opened with a bom, bom, bom, bom, bom. But it started with the voiceovers that then went into the monkeys crashing through the wall and was like, oh, okay, we're good, we're good. And I was very excited to see sort of how that translated into this. And there were moments where I was like, oh, that's really different than how I planned it, but I like how that went. And other moments where I was like, can I get in there? I Would like to like the top of as long as you're mine. I do not enjoy them being on opposite ends of Elphaba's bird's nest when she's singing.
- [51:09]
B
Oh, really?
- [51:09]
A
She's like, kiss me too fiercely. Hold me too tight. I'm like, well, he's outside. He can't do that yet.
- [51:14]
B
Oh, see, I thought that that was, like, her. My understanding was that that was her inner monologue, wanting, like, letting us in on her yearning that she wanted him to do that.
- [51:28]
A
But, like, you know, that's entirely possible. I might just be dumb.
- [51:34]
B
And when I was, like, very horny, watching, you're like, sing it to him. Yeah.
- [51:38]
A
I'm like, why are you not riding him already?
- [51:40]
B
He's here.
- [51:41]
A
He's with you.
- [51:41]
B
Like, get him like that broomstick. Okay, girl, hop on.
- [51:45]
A
He has a face for sitting. Get on that face, girl.
- [51:48]
B
Like, well, not when it was the burlap Patty. Don't sit on that. You'll get an allergic reaction.
- [51:52]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah. You're gonna get scratches all up.
- [51:54]
B
I mean, that's the. That's the true crime in all of this, is that she only got to have sex with him once when he was hot.
- [52:00]
A
It's true. It's true.
- [52:00]
B
And now she's. Now she has to be with the burlap man. Although he was still turning as burlap. I mean, it's hard to make. It's hard to make him look not cute.
- [52:07]
A
People were saying. People were saying, oh, I didn't know Ryan Reynolds was in this movie when he became scarecrow because he. When you look at the screenshots, he is giving a bit. Ryan Reynolds. It's.
- [52:15]
B
It's true.
- [52:17]
A
Can we.
- [52:18]
B
Can we have a moment for the sex shawl?
- [52:21]
A
The sex cardigan.
- [52:22]
B
Yes, the sex cardigan.
- [52:23]
A
That is what the Internet is calling it. Her sex cardigan.
- [52:26]
B
The sex cardigan had me cackling in that movie theater. It is so auntie. It is so auntie. It's like, yes, I've got the Anita Baker on. I lit a candle. But I'm not. I'm not giving him too much because I'm a lady.
- [52:44]
A
I. I say normalize not being fully naked during sex. Normalize covering up the parts you want covered with a cardigan.
- [52:52]
B
Well, well, because also, she didn't know she had him in the bag yet. So she was like, I gotta just give him a little this, you know? She was like, she's. I'm a marathon runner. I'm gonna give him a little bit of the shoulder I'm gonna give him some clavicle, but I'm gonna keep it. Some other things covered. Even though body t. Cynthia Eriva, honey, she wasn't covering up to hide. She was covering up for seduction. Let's get that. Let's get that straight. Point blank, period. But I think there's also something to be said for, like, well, I'm not gonna get let show you all of the goodies. No, my goodies, my goodies. Like, I'm not gonna give it all to you up front. And then it's like, after, you know, the throes of passion, you do need to have a little something, you know?
- [53:28]
A
Yeah.
- [53:29]
B
Pillow talk afterwards.
- [53:30]
A
We were animals just then. I need you to remember that I am a person now. Even though you treated me like the animal I was, now you need to talk to me like the lady I am.
- [53:40]
B
Also, something that's always been so devastating for me about the book of this musical is like, baby, I will. I'm ready to end it all. If somebody says, you're so beautiful, and you're like, no. And it's like, well, no, you are. I'm just looking at it in a different way than everyone else who thinks you're hideous. You're like, oh, thank you.
- [53:57]
A
Yeah, that's a Winnie Holtzman. I need to tell you that line is not the. Come on. You think it is. I always. I didn't like it in the show.
- [54:06]
B
I don't like it in the movie, by the way. Deep, deep, deep, deep, deep. Cut. But I went to drama school with Winnie Holtzman's daughter, Savannah, together.
- [54:16]
A
That's amazing. Final takeaways from Wicked for good.
- [54:21]
B
If.
- [54:21]
A
If you. I know. I know. We're trying to keep it positive, but, like, if there was one thing you would want to kind of go in and, like, twist. Is there anything in the movie that you would like to kind of get a redo on? You're allowed to pass, but one offer I did.
- [54:35]
B
I mean, you know. Okay, so in Girl in the Bubble, I know everyone's really obsessed with Girl in the Bubble, and I liked it for what it was. The camera moves in that song were so cool, but they did kind of take me out a little bit. I was just like, wait, are we in the mirror? Are we on their side? I was like, where are we going? And it did kind of feel like an REM Makeup ad a little bit to me. Like, you know, the palette and everything. And listen, a lot of that is just, like, Ariana Grande's branding is flawless. So, like, of course. Like the song where she's playing like a fairy princess dressed in pink in a pink and white salon with beautiful fashions. Yeah. With flawless skin. Like, of course that it all. It all works. But it was just like. I was like, there. Maybe there could just be a little something. Maybe something more here. Because. But then again, it's as. Even as I say that sentence, I want to slap myself in the face. Like, what do we want? Like, I feel like this when we. When we watch RuPaul's Drag Race and people are like, I don't know. And you're like, that person was in makeup for hours, wrote this comedy, did the thing, put the wig on. Like, you know, we as consumers of art are just like. Like, at some point, just, like, so unpleasable and gross as an audience, because we can. Because we can look at something like Girl in the Bubble and be like, well, I didn't really like it. Like, you know, but I hear what.
- [56:08]
A
You'Re saying, and I. I thought that that number was shot really well. And I liked the sort of trick photography of constantly going in and out of reflections. And I thought that was sort of a good metaphor, I guess, for the point of the song. I think. Think for me, all of the set dressing and the camera work was for. Not because the song itself didn't do anything for me. And so. And so there. I. For me, there felt like a disconnect. Beautiful as it looked, as you were saying, you know, you maybe wanted a little more from it. I think it was the disconnect of the beautiful visuals from the song that I wasn't feeling anything towards it. Just it. It didn't blend in a way that I would have liked. But that's not to say that the number wasn't shot beautifully, but I also do find sometimes with John M. Chu, with. I felt this way a little bit in the Heights sometimes of, like, this is a great music video. I'm not sure if this fits narratively. Like, it's really cool to look at, but I don't know what I'm getting from it, storytelling wise. And that's something that I feel, but that's not necessarily a thing that everyone feels. But, yeah, I think.
- [57:06]
B
Yeah, I think what we're kind of dancing around. I mean, listen, I think that, like, the best movie musicals are in recent years are Chicago, Dreamgirls and Wicked Part one. And, like, you know, Dreamgirls gave us that extra song and gave us three extra songs. What way?
- [57:25]
A
It gave us three extra songs. We have. Listen we have Love you, I do. And Patience.
- [57:32]
B
That's right.
- [57:34]
A
Oh, yeah, I remember that medley at the Authors.
- [57:37]
B
Yes. Oh, my God. Patience. Patience was a little too on the nose for me, but sure. But, like, I feel like Dream Girls, Andrew. Really? I feel like. I feel like, listen, is, like, what you wanted, like, you want, like, Cynthia Erivo to have a song like that. Like, you wanted her to have, like, that moment. And. And I. And I. So, like, I understand this. Like, you know, you're not the first person to say this about these two original songs.
- [58:03]
A
Yeah.
- [58:04]
B
But there's also. There's also a trap when you put original songs because people are, like, extra hyper focused in on the original song. I even told Pippa on the red carpet because it hit me. Cause the music team took pictures before we took pictures. And so we were talking to some of them and whatnot. And I turned to her after they went to the red carpet. I said, pippa, we get two original songs this evening. And she goes, we get two original songs this evening. You know, like, there's something like, wow, we get to hear two new Stephen Schwartz songs. Yeah. And it's like, It's. Honestly, it's like a really ambitious undertaking to put two new songs in a musical that every song is iconic at this point. Yeah. And I will be. And I'll be honest, the first time I heard Listen from Dreamgirls, I was not obsessed. But over time, and, like, you know, you kind of sit with something, you watch the movie again, you hear it on the radio. So I wonder if these songs will grow on us.
- [59:03]
A
It's possible. I often wonder if things that are new or changed are good or they're bad or if, like, we just get more used to them and thus we embrace them. It's hard to tell. It's always hard to tell. I don't want to listen for Elphaba. That's not what. I'm not sitting here being like, belt for me, Cynthia Erivo. I demand it. But I think more. The idea I had was, did you see Suffs on the Broadway?
- [59:32]
B
No, I missed it.
- [59:33]
A
Okay. It's early in the show, Shana Taub's song when she meets Jen Colella, and she's like, I want women to vote. And Jen Colella is like, me, too. But, you know, be more of a woman about it. And then Shana Tabb has this, like, I want song where she's. It's like getting the band together. She's like, I'm gonna have this woman help me and this woman help Me and the constant. And it's like there's a motor underneath it. So no one's belting, but there's like, a drive to it. It's the how will we find a way when there isn't one? And that was the energy I kind of wanted from Elphaba's song of this storytelling forward, like motor running song. That's not necessarily another no good deed, but had some energy to it. Ariana must be belting at all times. That is what I've decided because I am a gay man and I'm a misogynist that way. No, I was actually surprised how much Ariana sounded like her pop self in Girl in the Bubble. That was the least Glinda she sounded. And that's not a criticism so much. As she sang, I was like, oh, right. This is the voice she sings like, problem and we can't be friends with.
- [60:33]
B
Yeah.
- [60:33]
A
So it was an interesting moment for sure.
- [60:37]
B
She really only let her voice out, like, out. Out in. Thank goodness. When she, like, just the belt crossing across, like, that was like. She actually, like, let her voice, like, live in that musical theater pocket for like, two seconds. And it was thrilling. It's true.
- [60:57]
A
I want to say, though, and I know we gotta wrap things up, but people always come for the bridges. You didn't. You didn't know you crossed until you crossed line. And they were like, oh, that's the worst lyric in Wicked. The worst lyric in Wicked is in Wicked Witch of the east, which is, you're going to lose your heart to me. I tell you, if I have to, I have to magic spell you. And this is coming from someone who.
- [61:17]
B
When you do it, like Craig Carnelia, would ask you in a masterclass to do it as a monologue. That is tough.
- [61:22]
A
It is. It is. She is too. But I will say I in the movie, for all this, all the cutting they did on that number. I watched that moment. I was like, jon, I'm chu. I'm not telling you how to do your job. Lord knows you're a better film director than I am. But I watched this moment. I was like, that's something you. Actually, this is my moment that I would have fixed. Which is if you're gonna have that moment where Nessa sings, you're gonna lose your heart to me. I tell you, if I have to, I have to have her look cut to the Grimmery. Don't say magic spell. You have her just. Just see that. And then book to the grim re. But they did that, and she still said Magic spell you. I was like, no, no, just get.
- [61:57]
B
It out of there.
- [61:58]
A
Get it out of there. I felt like Sigourney Weaver and aliens. Get away from her. You like, get that. Get that lyric out of there. So that was my big. Like, if I could make one change, it would be that. Because I think that was a way to have the lyric but not have the lyric. Got it. Yeah. But I agree with you. I think Ariana sounded amazing on thank Goodness. And I appreciated that the camera was mostly on her for that solo. In fact, I think there was one take that lasted for like half of the. Half of the solo. It was very nice.
- [62:25]
B
The camera loves that girl. I mean, she's stunning. She like, she. Wow. I mean, there was just. There's something. I went and saw Leslie and Hamilton last week or the week before, I can't remember, but there I was sitting there. Of course, I've seen Hamilton 7,000 times and been in it more and more. And I was just sitting there marveling at how lovely it is to watch people at the top of their game do what they do best. And I was thinking about that in terms of the dancers and just like the lighting. I was just like, wow. I mean, it just like that show still really hits for me. But then I was also thinking about that when I was watching Ariana and Cynthia and I was just like, wow, we are getting to see these two women at the top of their game with eating the best food, flying first class or private, like, drinking, like alkaline water, like, going to bed early, massage in the morning, like yoga ready, showing up to set 17 hours before they even have to shoot. Like, you know, like, we are getting to see, like, the best version of these talents now. So that was something that I really enjoyed. Just like marveling in that.
- [63:43]
A
Yeah. And I think that these movies are a wonderful showcase for both of their talents as well as them being just so tuned into what this story requires from them, which I appreciate.
- [63:54]
B
They were fan. They were theater kid fans. I mean, it's all come out. Not to bring it all back and tie it in a bow, but like, these girls have been campaigning to play these roles for like 20 years.
- [64:04]
A
Yeah, yeah, it's true. And, and, but that, but that is why you don't have to try to pretend to be cool. Because being passionate isn't cool. Cool is aloof. Cool is sort of the austere quality that Michelle Yeoh is trying to give to Madame Morrible. And it's okay to say you want something. It's okay. To say that you love something and that when you do, you get women like Ariana and Cynthia, who, make no mistake, these are women. They say, I'm not that girl. I'm like, that's right, because you are that woman. But these women who cared so deeply and love it so much and gave us these really wonderful performances, that's the outcome. That's what you get from just openly being like, yeah, I'm a theater fan and I love it, and it's not super cool, but watch me give you a gift anyway. And I think that that's a beautiful payoff. I also will say I did enjoy that infamous shot that everyone now loves of them with the door, with their foreheads against the door, crying because life is about to tear them apart. Also, people were asking, how did Elphaba know about the plan with Fierro as the scarecrow? People forget that one moment before for good happens. She gets Chisri, gives her that little, like, patch of cloth with a note in it. That patch of cloth is from Fiyero. The note in it is from Fiyora being like, here's what's gonna happen. That's why she goes and she starts pumping out the water. That's the one thing that people are like, plot hole, Ding. Where I'm like, eh, it's there. They're just not. Jon Em Chu is not showing you what's in the note, but you clearly watch her read something and then go into action. So for me, that wasn't a plot hole.
- [65:35]
B
And then they gave us the ultimate gift at the end where they recreate the fan art. Oh, are you being Glenda B. Elphaba? Okay, wait, there.
- [65:47]
A
There it is. There it is.
- [65:49]
B
Cause, you know, they kind of allude to this, whatever day that was where they all went to have a picnic under the tree. We saw it in act and we were like, what? Like, even when, like, I saw that footage in Act 1, I was like, what is this, like, magical day where they all went to this field and Elphaba has this hat on.
- [66:06]
A
Yeah.
- [66:07]
B
And they're just like, ooh, we're sitting. And then it's like, to see, you know, what it was. It was a very inside baseball moment. You know, like, I feel like, you know, my boyfriend's dad wouldn't get it, but, like, you know, we all got it.
- [66:21]
A
Which is, I think, what I appreciate about that. Because, yeah, they do sort of hint at that flashback in Part one, and you're like, oh, what was so special about that day? And then in part two, it sort of that moment aside, what I liked about it was, oh, there was nothing special about that day. And that's what made it special. It was a day where they were all just together and everything was fine and they were happy and they were friends and it was good. Like, that was just a happy memory that seemed inconsequential at the time, but it means so much now. I call it. It's part of that montage that you see in rom coms, the falling in love with each other montage where you watch Diane Keaton and Jack Nicholson over the course of a day and. And something's got to give. Just like have a picnic and walk on the beach and laugh and it's all stupid little things. There's no grand gesture. But at the end of that montage, you're like, oh, they're falling for each other. Those little moments are the moments that are real. And that's what that scene ended up being. Which I appreciated trying to think of anything else. Oh, the Grimory opens up for Galinda and implies that possibly she might be able to do magic in the future. So I guess part three be happening. Wicked. Glinda's magical. Now.
- [67:26]
B
I honestly, I don't think that, that these, these women can, can do a third movie. Like, I, I know they're so tired. Like, the amount of press and outfits. Even if just like, I'm sorry, even just me having to put a T shirt and this on today. I was just like, who? Like, imagine how many times Cynthia and Ariana change clothes in a day.
- [67:49]
A
Absolutely. Andrew. I am not wearing pants for this interview and I am exhausted. They have to wear full body outfits and you just like, look at them. And I know that they're so happy to have had this experience. It means so much to them. But like, also, this is three years of their lives. It almost ate them alive, really, when you think about it. So, no, I don't actually think there will be a Glinda third movie, but they have said that they are toying with the idea of a third movie in some respect. But I think, I think Short said though that, like, it's not going to be a continuation of their stories. It's not. It's not. It's going to be other characters. And I feel like he put that in the press to be like, ariana, we're not calling you up. Cynthia, we're not calling you up. You're okay. You can breathe, you can sleep.
- [68:23]
B
Sleep. But if it's not, why would we want to who?
- [68:28]
A
Like, it's gonna be the many. It's gonna be the many. Adventures of Dulcibear. Dulcibear is liberated now and she's gonna get her Z. It's how Dulcibeart got her groove back. That is wicked. Three.
- [68:39]
B
Oh, my gosh. And you know what? After. After being in servitude for so many years raising all these bad kids, she deserves to get her groove back.
- [68:47]
A
Absolutely. It's the Nanny Diaries meets Sex and the City. That's what it's going to be.
- [68:53]
B
Meets Jungle Book.
- [68:55]
A
Yeah. Oh, honey, the Jungle Book. She's going to get up with all those animals. She's going to get dicked down all over us, and we are going to live for it. Get what? Read her sex diary. I love it. Can't wait to see it animal style. Yeah, she's going to get Dulce Bear back. Are you. Are you kidding me?
- [69:12]
B
Oh, you went there?
- [69:14]
A
I. That's. This podcast goes there. What can I say? We. This is the real journalism right here, right now. I see this has been delightful. I know you have to get going soon, so I'm gonna. I'm gonna let you go. Where can people find you if you want them to find you?
- [69:27]
B
Oh, my gosh. Well, you can find me at a C, H, A P P H, A W, K. That spells A chap Hawk. That has been my Instagram handle since I started on Instagram. And if you wanna listen to my podcast, it's at Tactful Pettiness and on Instagram and I think on TikTok too, even though I'm not a big tiktoker.
- [69:51]
A
But we do have our.
- [69:52]
B
We do have our producer Ren, who. Who runs our TikTok, which is great.
- [69:56]
A
Perfect.
- [69:57]
B
Yes. That's where you can find me if.
- [70:00]
A
You want to find me. Guys, I'm on Instagram only at Kopplick. Usual spelling. You can join the Discord Channel if you want to talk to the other listeners about the podcast or things going. Going on on Broadway. There is a chat for the Wicked Movie on the Discord Channel. So if you want to get more thoughts. Thoughts out, you can do that there. You can also join the substack to read more of my articles or get exclusive content that will be releasing at the end of the year via the podcast, including footage from our live musical episode that we did to green room 42 just a week ago.
- [70:28]
B
Oh, yes.
- [70:29]
A
It went all right. Yes, yes, yes. We will be having more shows there in the new year. It's a very exciting development. On this front because I'm not just a hard hitting journalist, Andrew. I also happen to be a decent writer and sing like a damn angel. That would make even Philippa Sui.
- [70:45]
B
Wait, wait. No, this is great because I was on your Instagram. My friend Gabby McClinton was in one of your things.
- [70:52]
A
She did the reading of my play. Yes, yes, yes.
- [70:54]
B
Yeah, she's like my sister. We grew up together. I've known her since she was like six.
- [70:58]
A
So when this is over, I'm gonna. I'm gonna group text you and Gabby and talk about this. Yeah, Gabby did the live stream reading of my play.
- [71:05]
B
She's a professional and she has a lot of time because she's not on social media.
- [71:10]
A
That is why she is better than the rest of us.
- [71:12]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [71:13]
A
But, yes, I do write, I do perform, I do sing. But this is my baby, this podcast. So people should just keep listening to the podcast. Although I will be releasing some content from the concert soon enough, so people stay tuned for that. Andrew. Oh, I didn't warn you this. We close out every episode with the diva, Usually Broadway. I will put her in post so you won't hear her right now, but when you listen to the episode, you will hear her play you out. What diva would you like to close out your episode?
- [71:44]
B
Patty, come here. Come here. Patty, Come here. Come, come, come. Some people probably aren't going to like this answer. Come here, come here. My dog's name is Patti Lubone.
- [72:03]
A
That's a. I had never heard of that before. That's amazing.
- [72:06]
B
Lin Manuel Miranda named her.
- [72:08]
A
Oh, so she's royalty.
- [72:10]
B
I was just gonna name her Patti LuPone. And he was like, you can't just name your dog Patti LuPone.
- [72:17]
A
And so he said, It's Patti LuPone. I love that.
- [72:19]
B
Actually, right before I walked out, I was playing Thomas Jefferson. I walked out. I was about to walk out in a room where it happens, and he comes up to me, goes, chappelle. It's Lubone. And I was like, great, Alexander. Happens.
- [72:34]
A
Excuse me while I do my job. Lynn, thank you so much. I love that. Okay, that's perfect. So, yeah, we'll close out with Patty. We've closed out with Pati before. People deal with it. In fact, Patti is the sound cue for when we cut to commercial. It's Patty. And anything goes. Going. Billy, I beg to differ with you. Every time we take a break, which I'm sure will happen in this because of the technical issue we had earlier, that'll just be a Patty transition. But, yeah, we'll go with her. Do you have any specific pick Patty moment you want or do you want me to pick for you?
- [73:07]
B
He adores you.
- [73:11]
A
If not, how could he love me? I love that. We'll do that. Patty Lepant coked out of her mind doing a new Argentina. That's what we're gonna do, baby. All right. Thank you so much, Andrew. We will see you guys next week. Take it away, Patty. Bye. Bye.
- [73:24]
B
Bye.
- [73:31]
A
The desk and his sonas are those he is marching with now.
- [73:37]
B
He supports.
- [73:38]
A
You for he loves you, Understands you.
- [73:41]
B
Is one of you. How could he love me?