Broadway Breakdown: MISS SAIGON w/ James Seol
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: James Seol
Date: January 11, 2024
Episode Overview
This episode delves into the history, legacy, and controversies of Miss Saigon, the mega-musical by Boublil and Schönberg, with actor James Seol (Come From Away, KPOP). The conversation spans personal memories, structure and themes, Asian representation, the star-making turn of Lea Salonga, problematic elements, and whether the show offers opportunities for narrative redemption. Expect humor, passionate opinions, explicit language, and in-depth analysis throughout.
Main Themes and Purpose
- To unpack the problematic elements of Miss Saigon, including racial representation, gender tropes, and historical context.
- To revisit the show's legacy, both artistically and socially, with firsthand experiences from guest James Seol.
- To question what “redemption” for a controversial classic might look like, and what stories need to be told next.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. First Encounters & Personal Histories
[07:51–13:00]
- James recounts first hearing Miss Saigon’s London cast album in high school, captivated by its Asian representation and spectacle ("the awe and the wonder of the stagecraft" – James [10:00]).
- Matt discusses the musical’s visibility as a “mega-musical” in '90s New York and shares the impact of seeing Miss Saigon live only during its final months.
"I loved it. I loved that there was a story...there's like Asian people, and it's a story about Asian people, and there's really beautiful music and it's loud music."
— James Seol [09:00]
2. Miss Saigon—Plot Overview and Stagecraft
[26:11–67:38]
- James gives a detailed plot summary, with frequent tangents on music, staging, and cultural details.
- Miss Saigon is set in 1975 during the fall of Saigon; it follows Kim, a young Vietnamese woman, the American GI Chris, and the aftermath of war and abandonment.
- Attention is paid to the "heat is on" opening, the helicopter scene, the “wedding” ceremony (including faux-Vietnamese lyrics), and the "American Dream" number.
"I think as a role of musical theater, Kim is incredible...Kim is a baller character in a lot of ways. She's a survivor. The only person who can kill Kim is Kim."
— Matt Koplik [34:46]
Notable quote on stage effects:
"I remember the feeling of just the awe and the wonder of the stagecraft...that helicopter was very effective."
— James Seol [10:00]
3. The 'Problematic' Question: Asian Representation, Gender, and Tropes
[68:22–86:48]
- James voices the core critique: Miss Saigon popularizes a reductive, tragic Asian narrative, dominated by tropes (the “suffering, self-sacrificing Asian woman”).
- Lack of stories centered around Asian agency and joy; the need for new stories (e.g., Vietgone).
- Matt pushes back: he finds Miss Saigon’s Kim more empowered than often credited, reading her choices—especially her suicide—as agency within bleak circumstances and even as a kind of “checkmate” toward the other characters.
“It's time maybe for other stories that in and around the same time period, more or less about similar kinds of characters.”
— James Seol [72:54]
4. Miss Saigon's Artistic Construction: Structure, Music, and Melodrama
[91:59–99:10]
- Discussion of the source material: Madame Butterfly and how Miss Saigon adapts/opposes it.
- The operatic sweep and "mega-musical" technique evoke epic feelings but sometimes undercut personal, psychological realism.
- Flaws in Kim’s suicide: the moment is under-motivated onstage, pushing a tragic template rather than dramatizing her decision.
- Matt’s emotional high point: the “Sun and Moon (Reprise)” moment, which spotlights Kim’s hope despite knowing she is doomed.
"Choosing optimism, choosing hope, when you've been through as much as she has, is, in its own way, an act of bravery."
— Matt Koplik [94:30]
5. Chris & Ellen: Weak Points and the ‘Villain’ of the Piece
[65:25–89:00, 176:59–181:59]
- Chris is continually called the “villain,” not through malice but through obtuseness, lack of agency, and emotional cowardice.
- Ellen as a character is problematic; her songs (“Now That I’ve Seen Her,” “Maybe”) fail to address her genuine interior life, instead bending toward making her a “sympathetic” obstacle.
- Suggestions for making Ellen’s character more dimensional, e.g., writing her a song that grapples with her own complicity and confusion.
- Chris’s choices and the show’s construction make him the actual male Becky of the show—a privileged bumbler who evades responsibility.
Notable running joke:
“Chris is a Chris.”
— Matt Koplik & James Seol [194:00]
6. The Engineer & ‘American Dream’—Charisma, Satire, and Yellowface Controversy
[106:42–122:58]
- The Engineer functions as comic relief, survivalist, and is often the audience’s favorite, despite the show nominally being Kim’s story.
- American Dream is discussed as a biting, satirical showstopper—an intentional send-up of American capitalism and broken promises to refugees.
- Deep dive into the original Jonathan Pryce casting, yellowface, and the resulting Actors’ Equity scandal:
- Price as a non-Asian “Eurasian” in heavy makeup; Equity objected.
- The larger conversation on casting, authenticity, and white supremacy in theater.
- Pryce was both lauded for his performance and emblematic of a shameful industry practice.
"I will say this...There's zero justification. Like it should have. It should have been stopped in its tracks from the very beginning, you know, even before the show tried to come to New York."
— James Seol [112:15]
7. The Show in Revival: Attempts to ‘Fix’ It
[160:15–175:12]
- Discussion of what, if anything, a revival can “fix”: changing lyrics, intensifying the darkness, recentering perspective, recasting.
- Ultimate consensus: changing cosmetic aspects (like Ellen's song) does not address fundamental issues in story structure and perspective.
- Recent attempts at "radical" productions (e.g., female Engineers, Black Chris/Ellen) offer new lenses but can't fully solve embedded tropes.
- Eva Noblezada's Kim is praised as a high point, but the criticisms of the text remain.
"The moment you say, I want to fix this—done, you're dead. Not a single one has ever worked. I think the best revivals come from directors who look at a text and go, there is so much here that people haven't discovered when they genuinely like the show they're doing."
— Matt Koplik [163:54]
8. Towards Broader Asian Narratives
[189:03–193:00]
- Miss Saigon’s legacy is mixed: it’s employed generations of Asian performers and inspired significant critical engagement, but has constricted the scope of Asian narratives to suffering and tragedy.
- There is pressing need for new works (e.g., Vietgone) that center different realities and voices, challenging and expanding theatrical representation for Asians.
"Great. This show exists. Wonderful...now it's time for something else. Even within the framework of, say, the Vietnam war."
— James Seol [196:22]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “The only person who can kill Kim is Kim.” — Matt [34:54]
- “Chris is a Chris. Male Beckys are Chris’s.” — James & Matt [194:00, 181:40]
- “Kim is always playing chess and everyone else is playing checkers.” — Matt [81:38]
- “When people say it’s gibberish, it’s not like they were like, ‘let’s make up some…’” — Matt (on the faux-Vietnamese lyrics) [19:34]
- “Frank Rich, you know…I adore Frank Rich…but even he, around the time of the revival, was saying…‘a director should have the ability to cast whomever.’” — James [115:21]
- “I was a sultry nine years old, and so I didn’t know shit about the show.” — Matt [20:45]
- “Miss Saigon is a show where you don’t get a lot of Asian joy…It’s mostly Asian suffering.” — Matt [135:21]
- “Sun and Moon, for me, is a song that is musically beautiful and lyrically stupid.” — Matt [92:00]
- “Chris only goes balls deep with sex; he doesn’t go balls deep with emotion or accountability.” — Matt [158:14]
Timestamps for Important Segments
- [07:51] — James’s first Miss Saigon experience
- [13:31] — The mega-musical marketing pack & Macintosh
- [19:13] — The fake “Vietnamese” used in the wedding scene
- [26:11–67:38] — Thorough act-by-act musical synopsis
- [68:22] — "Problematic" aspects and Vietnamese/Asian-American perspectives
- [80:03] — Parallels to Madame Butterfly structure; where Miss Saigon diverges
- [106:42] — Jonathan Pryce, yellowface, and the Equity controversy
- [112:15] — James on the moral failure of Pryce’s casting
- [122:04] — The star-making impact for Asian-American actors
- [160:15] — Discussion of the revival, what it tried to “fix,” and why that didn’t work
- [189:03] — Miss Saigon's mixed legacy and the need for new Asian stories
Final Thoughts & Takeaways
- Miss Saigon is a musical of contradictions: soaring music and flat characters, opportunities for representation and reinforcement of stereotypes.
- Its legacy is both to provide a launching pad for Asian artists and to stall the proliferation of more diverse Asian narratives.
- Kim stands as a simultaneously empowered and restricted character, while Chris (and to a lesser extent, Ellen) encapsulate a particularly white, American obtuseness and irresponsibility.
- Attempts to “fix” Miss Saigon—whether via revivals or retooling—cannot escape foundational flaws; real progress will come from new stories.
- The best moments in the show are when it embraces its epic, emotional, messy heart; the worst when it shortchanges complexity for melodrama or cliché.
Episode Closing
Matt and James celebrate actor Marin Mazzie as their “diva of the week.” In the final moments, Matt reads reviews of the podcast—both glowing and critical—highlighting the show's strengths in humor, expertise, and emotional insight, as well as the sometimes sprawling, digressive format (“bloated but brilliant”).
“Kim’s chess move. That’s how I prefer to call it. Chris—villain, male Becky. Ellen—not a villain, Vill-Ellen.” — Matt [193:53]
Listen to This Episode If…
- You’re a Miss Saigon fan, critic, or ambivalent
- You care about Asian representation and Broadway history
- You love deep dives, digression, and profanity-laced truth-telling
For more Broadway Breakdown: bwaybreakdown.substack.com