MISS SAIGON w/ James Seol

Summary

Broadway Breakdown: MISS SAIGON w/ James Seol

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: James Seol
Date: January 11, 2024

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the history, legacy, and controversies of Miss Saigon, the mega-musical by Boublil and Schönberg, with actor James Seol (Come From Away, KPOP). The conversation spans personal memories, structure and themes, Asian representation, the star-making turn of Lea Salonga, problematic elements, and whether the show offers opportunities for narrative redemption. Expect humor, passionate opinions, explicit language, and in-depth analysis throughout.

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Main Themes and Purpose

• To unpack the problematic elements of Miss Saigon, including racial representation, gender tropes, and historical context.
• To revisit the show's legacy, both artistically and socially, with firsthand experiences from guest James Seol.
• To question what “redemption” for a controversial classic might look like, and what stories need to be told next.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. First Encounters & Personal Histories

[07:51–13:00]

• James recounts first hearing Miss Saigon’s London cast album in high school, captivated by its Asian representation and spectacle ("the awe and the wonder of the stagecraft" – James [10:00]).
• Matt discusses the musical’s visibility as a “mega-musical” in '90s New York and shares the impact of seeing Miss Saigon live only during its final months.

"I loved it. I loved that there was a story...there's like Asian people, and it's a story about Asian people, and there's really beautiful music and it's loud music."
— James Seol [09:00]

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2. Miss Saigon—Plot Overview and Stagecraft

[26:11–67:38]

• James gives a detailed plot summary, with frequent tangents on music, staging, and cultural details.
• Miss Saigon is set in 1975 during the fall of Saigon; it follows Kim, a young Vietnamese woman, the American GI Chris, and the aftermath of war and abandonment.
• Attention is paid to the "heat is on" opening, the helicopter scene, the “wedding” ceremony (including faux-Vietnamese lyrics), and the "American Dream" number.

"I think as a role of musical theater, Kim is incredible...Kim is a baller character in a lot of ways. She's a survivor. The only person who can kill Kim is Kim."
— Matt Koplik [34:46]

Notable quote on stage effects:

"I remember the feeling of just the awe and the wonder of the stagecraft...that helicopter was very effective."
— James Seol [10:00]

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3. The 'Problematic' Question: Asian Representation, Gender, and Tropes

[68:22–86:48]

• James voices the core critique: Miss Saigon popularizes a reductive, tragic Asian narrative, dominated by tropes (the “suffering, self-sacrificing Asian woman”).
• Lack of stories centered around Asian agency and joy; the need for new stories (e.g., Vietgone).
• Matt pushes back: he finds Miss Saigon’s Kim more empowered than often credited, reading her choices—especially her suicide—as agency within bleak circumstances and even as a kind of “checkmate” toward the other characters.

“It's time maybe for other stories that in and around the same time period, more or less about similar kinds of characters.”
— James Seol [72:54]

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4. Miss Saigon's Artistic Construction: Structure, Music, and Melodrama

[91:59–99:10]

• Discussion of the source material: Madame Butterfly and how Miss Saigon adapts/opposes it.
• The operatic sweep and "mega-musical" technique evoke epic feelings but sometimes undercut personal, psychological realism.
• Flaws in Kim’s suicide: the moment is under-motivated onstage, pushing a tragic template rather than dramatizing her decision.
• Matt’s emotional high point: the “Sun and Moon (Reprise)” moment, which spotlights Kim’s hope despite knowing she is doomed.

"Choosing optimism, choosing hope, when you've been through as much as she has, is, in its own way, an act of bravery."
— Matt Koplik [94:30]

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5. Chris & Ellen: Weak Points and the ‘Villain’ of the Piece

[65:25–89:00, 176:59–181:59]

• Chris is continually called the “villain,” not through malice but through obtuseness, lack of agency, and emotional cowardice.
• Ellen as a character is problematic; her songs (“Now That I’ve Seen Her,” “Maybe”) fail to address her genuine interior life, instead bending toward making her a “sympathetic” obstacle.
• Suggestions for making Ellen’s character more dimensional, e.g., writing her a song that grapples with her own complicity and confusion.
• Chris’s choices and the show’s construction make him the actual male Becky of the show—a privileged bumbler who evades responsibility.

Notable running joke:

“Chris is a Chris.”
— Matt Koplik & James Seol [194:00]

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6. The Engineer & ‘American Dream’—Charisma, Satire, and Yellowface Controversy

[106:42–122:58]

• The Engineer functions as comic relief, survivalist, and is often the audience’s favorite, despite the show nominally being Kim’s story.
• American Dream is discussed as a biting, satirical showstopper—an intentional send-up of American capitalism and broken promises to refugees.
• Deep dive into the original Jonathan Pryce casting, yellowface, and the resulting Actors’ Equity scandal:
  • Price as a non-Asian “Eurasian” in heavy makeup; Equity objected.
  • The larger conversation on casting, authenticity, and white supremacy in theater.
  • Pryce was both lauded for his performance and emblematic of a shameful industry practice.

"I will say this...There's zero justification. Like it should have. It should have been stopped in its tracks from the very beginning, you know, even before the show tried to come to New York."
— James Seol [112:15]

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7. The Show in Revival: Attempts to ‘Fix’ It

[160:15–175:12]

• Discussion of what, if anything, a revival can “fix”: changing lyrics, intensifying the darkness, recentering perspective, recasting.
• Ultimate consensus: changing cosmetic aspects (like Ellen's song) does not address fundamental issues in story structure and perspective.
• Recent attempts at "radical" productions (e.g., female Engineers, Black Chris/Ellen) offer new lenses but can't fully solve embedded tropes.
• Eva Noblezada's Kim is praised as a high point, but the criticisms of the text remain.

"The moment you say, I want to fix this—done, you're dead. Not a single one has ever worked. I think the best revivals come from directors who look at a text and go, there is so much here that people haven't discovered when they genuinely like the show they're doing."
— Matt Koplik [163:54]

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8. Towards Broader Asian Narratives

[189:03–193:00]

• Miss Saigon’s legacy is mixed: it’s employed generations of Asian performers and inspired significant critical engagement, but has constricted the scope of Asian narratives to suffering and tragedy.
• There is pressing need for new works (e.g., Vietgone) that center different realities and voices, challenging and expanding theatrical representation for Asians.

"Great. This show exists. Wonderful...now it's time for something else. Even within the framework of, say, the Vietnam war."
— James Seol [196:22]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The only person who can kill Kim is Kim.” — Matt [34:54]
• “Chris is a Chris. Male Beckys are Chris’s.” — James & Matt [194:00, 181:40]
• “Kim is always playing chess and everyone else is playing checkers.” — Matt [81:38]
• “When people say it’s gibberish, it’s not like they were like, ‘let’s make up some…’” — Matt (on the faux-Vietnamese lyrics) [19:34]
• “Frank Rich, you know…I adore Frank Rich…but even he, around the time of the revival, was saying…‘a director should have the ability to cast whomever.’” — James [115:21]
• “I was a sultry nine years old, and so I didn’t know shit about the show.” — Matt [20:45]
• “Miss Saigon is a show where you don’t get a lot of Asian joy…It’s mostly Asian suffering.” — Matt [135:21]
• “Sun and Moon, for me, is a song that is musically beautiful and lyrically stupid.” — Matt [92:00]
• “Chris only goes balls deep with sex; he doesn’t go balls deep with emotion or accountability.” — Matt [158:14]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [07:51] — James’s first Miss Saigon experience
• [13:31] — The mega-musical marketing pack & Macintosh
• [19:13] — The fake “Vietnamese” used in the wedding scene
• [26:11–67:38] — Thorough act-by-act musical synopsis
• [68:22] — "Problematic" aspects and Vietnamese/Asian-American perspectives
• [80:03] — Parallels to Madame Butterfly structure; where Miss Saigon diverges
• [106:42] — Jonathan Pryce, yellowface, and the Equity controversy
• [112:15] — James on the moral failure of Pryce’s casting
• [122:04] — The star-making impact for Asian-American actors
• [160:15] — Discussion of the revival, what it tried to “fix,” and why that didn’t work
• [189:03] — Miss Saigon's mixed legacy and the need for new Asian stories

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• Miss Saigon is a musical of contradictions: soaring music and flat characters, opportunities for representation and reinforcement of stereotypes.
• Its legacy is both to provide a launching pad for Asian artists and to stall the proliferation of more diverse Asian narratives.
• Kim stands as a simultaneously empowered and restricted character, while Chris (and to a lesser extent, Ellen) encapsulate a particularly white, American obtuseness and irresponsibility.
• Attempts to “fix” Miss Saigon—whether via revivals or retooling—cannot escape foundational flaws; real progress will come from new stories.
• The best moments in the show are when it embraces its epic, emotional, messy heart; the worst when it shortchanges complexity for melodrama or cliché.

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Episode Closing

Matt and James celebrate actor Marin Mazzie as their “diva of the week.” In the final moments, Matt reads reviews of the podcast—both glowing and critical—highlighting the show's strengths in humor, expertise, and emotional insight, as well as the sometimes sprawling, digressive format (“bloated but brilliant”).

“Kim’s chess move. That’s how I prefer to call it. Chris—villain, male Becky. Ellen—not a villain, Vill-Ellen.” — Matt [193:53]

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Listen to This Episode If…

• You’re a Miss Saigon fan, critic, or ambivalent
• You care about Asian representation and Broadway history
• You love deep dives, digression, and profanity-laced truth-telling

For more Broadway Breakdown: bwaybreakdown.substack.com

Transcript

[Sam]

Sam.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Problematic Question Mark and it's covering shows that you're mad at and their possible redemption. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is an actor. You might have seen him on Broadway in Come From Away, Off Broadway in K Pop, where he got a Lortel nomination. Nbd. You might have seen him on your computer screen in Flight Attendant with Kaley Cuoco.

[James Soule]

Wasn't that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, multiple times. According to IMDb, you are in many episodes I never watched.

[James Soule]

I think I did five total across two seasons.

[Matt Koplik]

Also, are you the one?

[James Soule]

I'm like your least favorous guest, so I feel like this is a good pairing, like least famous podcast host, least famous guests.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, I've had my mom on and my dad, so I really don't think that's true.

[James Soule]

I'm gonna have to listen to those episodes.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, you have an IBDP credit, baby. Not everyone who's been on this podcast has that, you know what I mean? Please welcome to the podcast, James Soule.

[James Soule]

Aww, thanks so much. Happy to be here.

[Matt Koplik]

I hope when you do your one man show you call it poor Unfortunate Soul that will.

[James Soule]

I'll consider that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, please do. Just make it be so self pitying. I'm the least famous Broadway Breakdown guest.

[James Soule]

My God, that's what the entire three and a half hour show will be about.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, three and a half hours. Oh, you're going easy on us. Yeah, I just saw Here We Are yesterday and that felt like three and a half hours.

[James Soule]

Oh gosh. Can we talk about that? No, no, we won't talk about that.

[Matt Koplik]

We talk about it for a minute. I have to do an actual episode on it because I did do a Sondheim series at the beginning of this rebranding of the podcast and I've been asked by people who listen if they. If I can do one.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

First of all, I don't know how much I'm actually going to remember of the show by the time I record it because I got to say there's so much that just left my brain when I watched it and it was sad. It was sad because it's so many people who I love and I think the cast is great. It's very well cast, everyone. And it is very talented and very different from each other. Rachel Bay Jones is giving the gays everything they need.

[James Soule]

Oh, my God, she's amazing.

[Matt Koplik]

She also looks incredible.

[James Soule]

It is an incredible cast. I mean, they got. I mean, David Hyde Pierce is in it, right?

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

In the most princessy track of all time, Tracy Bennett.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, talk about princess track.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Tracy Bennett. David Hyde Pierce. Dennis o'. Hare. Rachel Bay Jones, Bobby Cannavale, Michaela Diamond, Stephen Pasquale.

[James Soule]

I've seen the production photos too. It looks like a million bucks. I mean.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, it's gorgeous to look at. The design is beautiful.

[James Soule]

All the money on stage.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, absolutely. And you know, I made some opinions felt towards the end of my Sondheim series because we did that in chronological order. So we started with west side Story and we ended with Roadshow.

[James Soule]

Oh, wow.

[Matt Koplik]

And you know, after 1996, it gets.

[James Soule]

A little.

[Matt Koplik]

Upsetting covering Sondheim because.

[James Soule]

You mean like post Passion.

[Matt Koplik]

Post Passion, yes.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

A musical that I have sweetened on a bit more since I recorded that episode, if only because of the toxic love and heartbreak I have also now gone through where I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm in love with you and it's awful. I feel that so hard. Foska, I love you and I'm dying.

[James Soule]

It's definitely a grown up show. Like you understand it more because I saw it in high school, but yeah, you know, a lot of it went over my head, certainly. And it's only now in middle age that you know, because I listen to that score a lot because it's such a beautiful score and I think it's so sweeping and romantic and. And also complex and. And really understands the psychology of that kind of love and. Yeah, but you only understand it as grown up.

[Matt Koplik]

I very much love shows. And this is how we're transitioning to where we're actually talking.

[James Soule]

Yes, because we've talked a lot.

[Matt Koplik]

Because.

[James Soule]

Because James.

[Matt Koplik]

James Soul. What motherfucking musical are we talking about today?

[James Soule]

We're talking about Miss Saigon. And you're right, there is a segue here.

[Matt Koplik]

There's a segue here. I really love shows that sort of investigate the subject matter of love, of romance, and show you both the amazing highs that you get from it and the could kill you lows of it, as well as the complexity and nuance of human beings. Because it's so easy in a love story when you're with someone to think that, you know, everything shines out of their pores. They are amazing. To quote a character, you are the sun, I am the moon.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And and to eventually realize that they are just a person who's trying to make it day after day, and they're gonna fuck up and they're gonna hurt you. You hope that when they hurt you, it's not on purpose, and you hope that it's not something that will permanently scar you. But they might. It can happen. It do happen a lot. And I think that the shows that are pure romance are the shows that we tend to criticize the most because it doesn't always follow our trajectory with love. The shows that have love and it doesn't always pan out great are the shows that were like, oh, I kind of really like that.

[James Soule]

Yes. Because there's truth there. Right. Honesty, the messiness, the terribleness, the beauty. All of it together, you know. Right. All of it existing at the exact same time.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Right. So the romanticized love is the false stuff that we're kind of like. Oh, yeah. You know, Hollywood endings. That kind of. That kind of thing that rarely rings.

[Sam]

No.

[James Soule]

Never rings true. I would say. Not rarely. Never rings true. And I think it's interesting that we're talking about passion and we're segueing to Miss Saigon, because there is. They both have elements of love at first sight. Interestingly, they're both sung through for the most part. Right. So, like, there's a connection between the sort of, for lack of a better word, operatic quality of these large emotions. Right. And this largeness of love and what it can do and the ways it can hurt you and the ways that it can. That it can also, you know, make you feel more alive. But then, of course, I think the parallels have to stop.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because, well, you know, I think for a number of reasons, Passion is the show that's like, you know, oh, you could go with the easy choice, the expected choice, or you could go for the person who actually, like, understands the sewer rat inside of you and loves you anyway.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Although I guess that doesn't really make sense with Mysticon, because both women think that, you know, sunlight shines out of Chris's asshole, which I think is absolutely untrue. But that's.

[James Soule]

That's.

[Matt Koplik]

We'll get to it. So, first of all, James, how did Miss Saigon find its way into your life?

[James Soule]

Oh, gosh. Okay. I don't think my story is going to be uncommon. I went through a phase early in middle school, high school, where I was introduced to musicals via the big Broadway shows. Right. So my sister had a cast recording of Phantom Les Mis eventually, and then Miss Saigon, and, you know, I'd Never encountered music like this before. And I remember just sort of loving the lushness and the spectacle elements of it, even through just the recordings themselves and looking at the pictures that came in the little booklets that came with the cd. And so that was. So I heard the recording first, the original London cast recording, and I loved it. I loved it. I loved that there was a story. I don't think I would have been able to articulate this at the time, but I think what I was connecting to was that there's, like, Asian people, and it's a story about Asian people, and there's really beautiful music and it's loud music. And then it was also the first Broadway musical that I ever saw. I saw it at the Kennedy Center. I can't remember which. Weren't there, like, eight national tours at that point, but I saw it at the Kennedy center on a Sunday evening, I think, because I remember I opened up the program and, like, seven of those little slips fell out. It was like there were seven standbys on, and it was great. I went with my sister and a bunch of her friends, so they were all older than me, and I was so giddy with excitement. I remember reading the program. Nicholas Heitner had just done his Carousel at Lincoln Center.

[Matt Koplik]

Not familiar, Right?

[James Soule]

Right. You don't know anything about that. And. Yeah, and I was just like. I remember just being so excited and in my seat before the show started, and then it happened and I watched it, and I don't. I tend to forget things. Like, I can't. I rarely remember specific moments in shows that I've seen, even if. Even if I love them. I just. I more or less remember feelings. And I remember the feeling of just the awe and the wonder of the stagecraft. Things coming in and out is my first sort of exposure to big commercial theater where there's automation and a giant helicopter coming down. And I remember specifically that Fall of Saigon scene. It was so cinematic. The thing, you know, things are coming on left and right, back and forth, up and down, and it was so cool. I remember thinking, like, oh, wow, this is like a movie. This scene where, like, scene where things are happening for different perspectives and we're large for a moment, then we get really small because Kim has to sing or Chris has to sing. But then we get back to the ensemble and. And, you know, that helicopter was very effective. And, you know, I was. I think I remember being moved by the end of it, too. You know, at the end, spoiler alert. When Kim shoots herself. And I remember the Curtain call. And I think this is the. This was the tradition. And I think this is what happened in the revival, too, where, like, the kid gets the last bow, right? They, like, get him to come on, and the audience goes crazy. And so I loved it. And, you know, after watching it, I remember listening to that recording even more. And, you know, Lea Salonga's voice. I don't think I'd ever heard a voice like that.

[Sam]

That. It.

[James Soule]

In a way, I feel like it was. I'm about to say this. I don't think this is true, but for lack of a better description, ahead of its time, because the voice was. There was so much control in it. I felt like. And, you know, she knew. I don't know when to go straight tone, when to use vibrato, like that kind of stuff. And I remember listening to it and thinking, like, Jonathan Price, he's really good, a really good actor, very skilled. So that is the. That is. So this was. This would have been when I. In my teenage years that I.

[Matt Koplik]

So 1982.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

So, I mean, if you saw the Kenney center right after Carousel happened, it was probably like, maybe early 1995. I want to say.

[James Soule]

What year was Carousel? What year was Carousel?

[Matt Koplik]

Carousel opened in March of 94 on Broadway. So I would have.

[James Soule]

Because it would have been 90. You're right, exactly right. 95. It would have been 1995.

[Matt Koplik]

So then you probably saw. You either saw the beginning, like the first leg of the Second national or towards the end of the First National.

[James Soule]

I wish I had the program still.

[Matt Koplik]

I. I could go on IBDB and look it up. But also, IBDB is usually only like 75 accurate with this.

[James Soule]

Right? But, yes, my mom threw away all my stuff that I had. What a. I had a. I had a Kiss of the Spider Woman poster that Cheetah Rivera autographed.

[Matt Koplik]

Why does your mom.

[James Soule]

I don't know why she threw it up. It's homophobic.

[Matt Koplik]

It's homophobic. I. So wonderful, wonderful intro. Beautiful gowns. So I grew up around and in the city. I only knew Miss Igon partially because of the mega musical quartet Cats, les Mis, Phantom, Ms. Sagan. And there was a time in New York when those four were always just advertised with each other, like in a pack. It would be. There was like, a slice of each one. It would be a certain image, and they would.

[James Soule]

And that is because Cameron Mackintosh produced all four, right?

[Matt Koplik]

All four. He sure did. He sure did. And tells you something like, Macintosh had other shows on and off during that decade. But for all of the 90s, those were the four that he advertised together.

[James Soule]

Right, The Moneymakers.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And, you know, usually, sometimes it would be just the logos. Sometimes it just be the title. Sometimes it would be the title with an image from the show Phantom. It was usually Christine in the Phantom, Les Mis. It was usually Valjean. Cats. A bunch of cats. And then Miss Saigon. The image that they usually showed was the photo of Kim's body as she was dying and Chris holding her and sort of like looking up to the sky going, why?

[James Soule]

Oh, interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

Or why, God, Why?

[James Soule]

That would mean that Kim was facing away from.

[Matt Koplik]

Kim was usually camera or profile. If I recall correctly, Kim's face was usually turned inwards towards his chest. So it was profile.

[Sam]

Okay. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And he was looking up. That is how I remember it. And I knew nothing.

[James Soule]

That's very telling, actually.

[Matt Koplik]

Right.

[James Soule]

Well. And.

[Matt Koplik]

And then it's also telling when you look at the posters for the revival. But again, we'll get into it. It's like they always played into the tragedy of the show.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And Phantom, they always tried to play into sort of like the mystery of it all. And they played into the romance of Phantom later on. But for the 90s, it was very much like, everything's in the shadows. So Miss Saigon, that's all I knew. My first true pure introduction to the show. There was a concert in 1999 in London. It was called hey, Mr. Producer. It is.

[James Soule]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It is, in my opinion, still the greatest musical theater concert of all time.

[James Soule]

I had that on vhs.

[Matt Koplik]

I sure did, too.

[James Soule]

BAE B. I love it so much.

[Matt Koplik]

That concert is incredible. The talent alone on stage. But. So I. I also didn't know everyone was in that. Everyone. Everyone but Patti. And I'm sure she has issues with that, but, you know, whatever.

[James Soule]

I mean, Judi Dench and Bernadette Peters and Ruthie Henshaw. Ruthie Henshaw.

[Matt Koplik]

Lea Salonga, Colm Wilkinson doing both Sondheim.

[James Soule]

And Lloyd Webber making that video.

[Matt Koplik]

The dual piano thing.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Fun. That. And. But, like, kid me did not know the magnitude of Sondheim and Webber doing that duet together. I also didn't know that it was honoring Cameron McIntosh. I didn't know who the fuck he was. I was like, oh, I just thought it was like this big old musical theater concert.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I believe Miss Saigon was the first mega musical that they did, because I remember.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because it opens with a big overture, which is just the overture to Cats, and then they go into food, glorious food from Oliver, and then with, like.

[James Soule]

A billion kids A billion kids.

[Matt Koplik]

A million. A million. Every child in England is on that stage. But so then they, like. They do a whole bunch of other stuff. They do some revivals. They do some of his lesser known shows. They do Little Shop. Then they do Miss Saigon. And then Miss Saigon goes into Phantom. And Phantom is what closes out Act 1. And then the actual. And then the show. Show, it closes out with Cats doing Jellicle Songs or Jellicle Cats into Memory. And then that goes into the Les Mis stuff. And so the show ends with one day more. But Miss Saigon, they open with. He does on In Saigon. Okay, with the Kim solo. And then that dissipates with an ensemble.

[James Soule]

I don't remember this at all.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah, it's all the GIs and the bar girls. The bar girls mostly just sort of do their shtick because they do like, one chorus of Heat is on into I'm 17 and I'm new Here Today. And then they do one more chorus of Heat is on a Saigon. Everyone goes off stage and it's just Chris and Kim and. And the women come back on stage and they do the ceremony.

[Sam]

The.

[James Soule]

The non Vietnamese.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

The gibberish. It is technically speaking gibberish, but I have found out that the reason why it is gibberish is because Claude Michel Chambert and Alain Mobilil, wonderful French accent. Thank you so much. That's the only time I'm going to refer to them with that accent. After that, it's going to be hardcore American. But they. They had done research and they had, had. They had done a session. This is also to tell you, first of all, that they were French and that this was 1986 when they started writing it, or 85 when they started writing it. 86 when they had a first draft of act one sent to Cameron Macintosh. They had a conversation with. They had like a group session with some people from Saigon and they wrote down words phonetically. So they were French writing down Vietnamese phonetically. And they used certain. They used certain phrases that they put in the song. So this. The words are incorrect, but they kind of sound like real words. And I have it written down at some point, which we'll get into.

[James Soule]

But wait, unpack that for a moment. So there they were speaking to. They were speaking to native Vietnamese speakers.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And they were writing down.

[James Soule]

The Vietnamese speakers gave them words.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, they were like.

[James Soule]

But like, words for what? Like, are they, like, listing a gro. Like, is it a grocery list or something?

[Matt Koplik]

Or so the. So we're. So we're getting all over the place. Welcome to the pod.

[James Soule]

Sorry. Yeah, that's my fault.

[Matt Koplik]

No, it's all good.

[James Soule]

We.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen. We spent 90 minutes talking about passion.

[Sam]

We.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure. So, yes, I think the jui voyvei, I believe, is the first one. And it's. It derives from chuk voyvei, which I believe means have fun or happiness, like, are wishing you happiness. So sorry, guys. That means love forever.

[James Soule]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

And then vao neumoi means wishing happiness.

[James Soule]

So it is contextual.

[Matt Koplik]

Those are the. Those are the actual terms. Interesting. And then again, because they wrote it down phonetically and they are French. They.

[James Soule]

I see what you're saying.

[Matt Koplik]

So it's.

[James Soule]

Okay. So it's like a Frenchified version of.

[Matt Koplik]

These Vietnamese phrases from a game of telephone, essentially. Right. So it's not. When people say. It's gibberish. It's not like they were like, oh, let's make up some.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

They did have a moment where they were doing some research. And then, because it's the 80s and I'm sure they were on cocaine, they. You know, invariably. Yes, it's over time, it got watered down from the actual words into the gobbledygook, we now know, which then got changed again for the revival into actual Vietnamese.

[James Soule]

The Broadway revival. The Broadway was still like that.

[Matt Koplik]

It was still.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

It was still gobbledygook in London. But. So, yes. Him as a producer, they do that ceremony into Last Night of the World, or. Yeah, that's the song.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

In a place that's still.

[James Soule]

Yes, the duet.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, their duet after the ceremony. The one that's not sun and Moon. They do that.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Then they go into. This is the Hour.

[James Soule]

Got it.

[Matt Koplik]

They. They run off stage in the ensemble choreography and stuff.

[James Soule]

No, just like a. Yeah, it's just park. Park and bark.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. It's a hundred people in communist attire singing this Is the Hour. And then they run off stage and Jonathan Price comes on to do American Dream. And that's how it ends.

[Sam]

Okay.

[James Soule]

Like when you heard. When you saw that sequence.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

What did you. What was your experience of it? Like, did you. I mean. Because I feel like if you watch it, even if you just watch those excerpts.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

I don't know. You more or less get the story. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I didn't know. I did not. Okay. Because, remember, I was a sultry nine years old, and so I didn't know shit about the show. And my parents wouldn't take me my. With it. When it came to the musicals, Les Mis was the only thing in my household that everyone's like, we all agree that this is the good one.

[James Soule]

Gotcha.

[Matt Koplik]

And so my parents took me to see that when I was very little.

[James Soule]

Do you know why they wouldn't take you to Miss Saigon?

[Matt Koplik]

They just didn't want to go. Like, my every. Everyone in my family hated Cats. No one would take me. It finally it took Cats closing for someone in my family to take me. My grandmother, nanny Nancy Tickton, she took me to see Phantom when I was 9, and I think that was considered, like, a step above Cats. Like, so it was Les Mis I got to see then Phantom, then Cats because it was closing. And then I finally got to see Miss Saigon on Broadway when that was closing, and my dad took me to see that. And we specifically went in the last month when Lea Salonka had come back to the show. I don't know.

[James Soule]

And again, people probably started caring about it again, too.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah, the last month was totally sold out. But either we didn't know or we had gotten misinformation about it because, like, I think when she first did the show for her first year, she didn't do Saturday nights or Wednesday matinees because Kim has had an alt. Has had an alternate forever, right?

[James Soule]

Six performances, right?

[Sam]

Yeah. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I think Eva did four in London, but. And then did six here.

[James Soule]

Oh, wow.

[Matt Koplik]

But also, she was 18 in London, so, yeah, she's allowed. But yeah, Leia, I think someone had told us, like, oh, yeah, no, like, she'll be at the Saturday matinee. Those are the ones she does. And so we went, and it wasn't her. It was her alternate.

[James Soule]

Gotcha.

[Matt Koplik]

So we were disappointed, but we still had good seats. Everyone else was in. Will Chase was our Chris Lee. Ruthie Henschel was our Ellen.

[James Soule]

Oh, wow. Really? I didn't know she did in New York.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, she. She came in at the end of the run to do it in New York. I don't know why, but she did. And so that was. I finally got to see the show. And what's so interesting is I didn't know much about the helicopter. I think I knew of it, but I didn't know it was, like, such a thing.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

When I told. I remember telling, like, a teacher I was going to finally see it because all my teachers knew what a Broadway freak I was. And when I said I was seeing it, they were like, oh, wait till you see the car. And I didn't know anything about the plot of Miss Saigon from the hey, Mr. Producer concert. I just knew, like, there was a love story. But like, it sounded so 80s to me, the whole thing that I, like, in my mind, I was like, oh, well, like. And I think maybe I had, like, grease on the mind. So I was like, oh, like, they're gonna neck in a car like Kaniki and Rizzo. So, of course, like, the whole show is, like, not what I'm expecting.

[James Soule]

Right, of course. Meanwhile, there's a backdrop of this terrible, terrible war.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. And the helicopter happens before the car, and then the car happens. I'm like, that's what I was. What I was told about. Some bitch sits on a car for.

[James Soule]

A minute to tell a young person about the show. Wait till the car moment.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, the car moment was also iconic for a lot of people, because I know it levitates, but, yeah, for some reason, like, that teacher, I forget her name. Maybe it was like, Ms. Sayari or somebody. They were just like, yeah, wait till you see the car.

[James Soule]

Interesting.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I also remember it was on a raked stage, and that was really huge because it was the perspective that it gave.

[James Soule]

It was. I don't remember.

[Matt Koplik]

It was on a raked stage.

[James Soule]

Was the revival on a raked stage?

[Matt Koplik]

Probably not. The revival didn't do anything, including the rake stage. But so, yeah, that was my only experience. And then eventually I got to know Emily and Charlotte Malpy through summer camp, so I got to know Richard a bit. And so I got to learn a little bit about the show from that. And then I saw the revival, and that's pretty much it.

[James Soule]

Yeah, I saw the revival, too.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I did not know this show had any controversy when I was a kid. Even when I saw it, I didn't know about any controversy. It really wasn't until I think the revival opened in London that I learned about all of it.

[James Soule]

That makes perfect sense.

[Sam]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because I also didn't know about, like, the Jonathan Pryce stuff. Because also, Jonathan Pryce, they like to claim after Price left the show, no actor that wasn't of Asian descent played the engineer ever again. And I don't feel like that's true, because I remember in my souvenir program, there's the souvenir program towards the end of the run. Had photos from all the different companies.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

From London, Broadway, obc, Replacements, and there's one engineer that I could swear is Caucasian. That's not Jonathan Price. I don't have it on me. It's in my storage facility. But I want to know who the fuck it is, because I want to point.

[James Soule]

It doesn't understudy or stamina. I mean, because I wonder if maybe in that moment or in that realm of, you know, performers, there must have been a standby, like a. Maybe like a third understudy that, you know, that might have been Caucasian, that would have had to go on.

[Matt Koplik]

But they don't usually.

[James Soule]

But you're right, they do say that. You know, like Tara Rubin says that, you know, after Jonathan Pryce, it was only Asian American actors playing that role.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Nicholas Heitner says so in his book, I think, called Balancing Acts. He's like, you know, equity lost the battle, but they won the war. Because after Price, it was always Asian actors after that. And we'll talk about that whole situation as well as what everyone has said about it in the moment, and then post.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

But before we get into any of that, James, we gotta take a quick break.

[James Soule]

Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[Sam]

How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar.

[James Soule]

You're the top.

[Sam]

You're a coolidge.

[Matt Koplik]

And we're back.

[Sam]

Yay.

[Matt Koplik]

So even after this break, we still haven't even gotten into it. James, for the uncultured. Sorry, no, no. But for the uncultured fucks out there, what is Miss Saigon about?

[James Soule]

Oh, gosh. Okay. I'm terrible at synopses. It takes place in 1975, which happens to be a period of time where the Vietnam War is wrapping up. So we meet the main character, Kim. She has fled the countryside because presumably the Viet Cong has destroyed her town and killed her family. And she needs. She comes to Saigon and, you know, needs to make some money and to be able to survive. And so she comes to this bar called Dreamland. Dreamland. Run by this character called the Engineer. No name, just the Engineer. Also, Kim doesn't have a last name and.

[Matt Koplik]

Or that we're told the Viet Cong took it away.

[James Soule]

They burned her last name.

[Matt Koplik]

They said this is a communist country now. Everyone has the same last name.

[James Soule]

And so she's come to work at this bar. Now, this bar, I guess. Well, number one, it's frequented by a lot of American soldiers, Marines, military members. And I guess it's a strip or. I don't know, what kind of establishment is it?

[Matt Koplik]

It's basically a strip club, brothel.

[James Soule]

And there's a raffle where you win, you pay and you win one of the girls. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So it's unclear. Well, so it's unclear if this is something that happens a lot or if this was like a one time thing.

[James Soule]

Oh, yes, that's true.

[Matt Koplik]

Because it is unclear, because there's Also, a documentary about the casting of Kim, as well as the rehearsal process of the London production of Miss Aigon.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

It has that very famous clip of Lea Salongo, which everyone assumes is her audition. It's actually her first callback, which I.

[James Soule]

The one where she asks for the autograph.

[Sam]

Yes. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then sing sun and Moon.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because. And we'll get to that as well. But everyone's always like, oh, my God, that Lea Salonga audition. Imagine she walks in the room and, like, they're all just blown away. And the truth is, they'd all heard her sing already.

[James Soule]

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's her callback, not her audition. She tells the story of when Cameron McIntosh asked her, because they were. They did this whole search, like, around the world. They went to, obviously, London, but then in New York, Hawaii, California, the Philippines, and. Because they were looking for very specific age.

[James Soule]

Yes, right.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, the chances were that the actress they hired wasn't going to be terribly experienced, at least professionally speaking. And they had no idea that Leia was so huge in the Philippines. And they're like, if they didn't perform in the West End or Broadway, like, what experience could they have? So a question. Cameron McIntosh asked every young woman who auditioned for Kim, who progressed the next round. He said, what's the largest room you've performed for?

[James Soule]

They don't show footage of that.

[Matt Koplik]

They don't.

[James Soule]

For Leah.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, for Leia, for. They don't. This is something Leia has said in. In interviews since.

[James Soule]

Oh, okay.

[Matt Koplik]

That, you know, I like it.

[James Soule]

She's.

[Matt Koplik]

She. Because she sang On My Own. And then they asked her for a second song and she sang the Greatest Love of All. And Cameron's like, leia, what's the largest room you've ever performed in? Thinking she's gonna be like, oh, you.

[James Soule]

Know, like my living room.

[Matt Koplik]

Or like, you know, like a thousand seats. Because the Drury Lane in London is huge. 1900 seats. And she goes, well, I opened for Stevie Wonder, so that was like maybe 10,000 seats. I don't know. It was dark out there and I.

[James Soule]

Didn'T know the story.

[Matt Koplik]

And Kara McIntosh was like, excuse me.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So I just love that she has absolutely no fan.

[James Soule]

Again, another sort of telling interaction slash behavior from a prominent member of the creative team. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, Dreamland, the bar and all that stuff.

[Sam]

Oh, yes.

[James Soule]

We're back to the synopsis.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry, there it is. There is.

[James Soule]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm sorry.

[James Soule]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

So I had. I had someone mess. Messaged me, and they Said, please make this a five hour episode. I was like, I'll do my goddamn best. But. So.

[James Soule]

So we meet Kim.

[Matt Koplik]

But you asked about the raffle in. He does on they talk. There's a scene where Heitner's talking to them over the script. He's like, it's still not clear what this raffle is. And Alain Boublil and Richard Malpe Jr. Like, it doesn't really matter. Right. Like, the whole point is that whoever wins it doesn't matter. And Heitner's like, no, yeah, but like, we still want to make it clear, like, what the fuck's going on? And they make it a little clearer. Essentially, the raffle is the. The gis vote on who is Miss Saigon in the bar and they all pay money for the raffle. And whoever wins the raffle basically gets to like, go off and bed Miss Saigon.

[James Soule]

And I guess if this is a regular thing at Dreamland, I guess that.

[Matt Koplik]

It won't be such an. It won't be such an event. It might be like an annual thing.

[Sam]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Soule]

Like a monthly thing.

[Matt Koplik]

Bi. Monthly. You gotta make. You gotta make it somewhat special.

[James Soule]

That's true. Well, because it is a money making venture.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Right. So. And if you want to die in bed, he goes, that was my.

[Sam]

That.

[Matt Koplik]

This one was my greatest creation. Not because of like the glory of it, but he's like, I got them to pay extra money for basically, like a girl who won't be Miss, like on tomorrow.

[James Soule]

That's right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, that's right.

[James Soule]

So it was a money making.

[Sam]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Soule]

He was a. He was a capitalist. So we meet Kim. She's new to this bar, very inexperienced.

[Matt Koplik]

She's 17 and she's new here today.

[James Soule]

Yeah. Coming from the countryside, she captures the eye of an American marine named Chris. And Chris. No, wait. So then his friend John is like, we're gonna get you a girl tonight.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Because Chris has been feeling blue.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Which I have some questions about, like, you know, because as far as, like, who he is exactly. And why he expresses during this opening number that something about him is different today. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

He's been. He's been feeling different for a minute.

[James Soule]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so John, his. His best friend buys him Kim.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Because he recognizes that Chris likes her there.

[James Soule]

It's the.

[Matt Koplik]

It's the famous line. Great. Jesus, John, who is she?

[James Soule]

Yes, that's right. Brilliant lyric.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Musically, it does get me every time.

[James Soule]

Well, you know, and. Well, we'll talk about specifics about the music a little bit later. So let's finish this synopsis because I'm terrible.

[Matt Koplik]

We're only in the first eight minutes of the show.

[James Soule]

I'm so awful at it.

[Matt Koplik]

I apologize.

[Sam]

They.

[Matt Koplik]

They go off and they have sex.

[James Soule]

Yes, they go off and have sex. They basically. It's the beginnings of their love. Right. They sing some. A duet together. Then there's like the sort of marriage ceremony.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And I know I'm skipping a bunch of things, but they get to the marriage ceremony. Then it's. Well, first of all, before the marriage ceremony, they decide. Chris is like, do you want to come live with me?

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So there's that Chris has come to Jesus moment. Why God?

[James Soule]

Why a literal come to Jesus moment.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Where he basically says to God, like, I'm leaving Vietnam soon. And I was so ready to leave because I'm so over it. He goes, and now I've met this girl, and she, you know, makes me feel anew.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Smells of orange trees.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm like, all you've done is fuck her. Like that's all you've done.

[James Soule]

Exactly.

[Sam]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But so she wakes up and they basically have a heart to heart, and heart to heart. Well, basically in quotation, he tries to give her money. She won't take it. And then.

[James Soule]

And she has like four stanzas of like, here's my background. Here's where.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because. Well, this is something about Kim that I actually really do like. Because he's. She's like, you're my first. He goes, that can't be true. All the girls lie. He goes, I don't know. Maybe you're different. I don't know anything about you. And rather than her be like, I like pizza. I'm not like other girls. She goes, she said, I love her opening line, where she basically, like, do you want to hear another song about it? About a Vietnamese girl. She was. Do you want to hear about how, like, the life I fled, Right.

[James Soule]

The.

[Matt Koplik]

My. My parents are dead. Everyone I know is gone. I was originally going to be married to a boy I don't love. Important. Yes. And then she says, I've had my fill of pain. I will not go back again. I would rather die. And it's like, very intense. And then the first thing Chris says is like, well, do you want to stay here?

[James Soule]

Which, you know what? Now that. The way that you just explained it, I feel like it's a good example. Or maybe one of the earliest examples in the show where she does have these flashes of agency. Right. These flashes of moments.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I think she's got total.

[James Soule]

She has control, and she exhibits control over her life. She makes very, very courageous choices.

[Matt Koplik]

One of the conflicts people have with the show is they feel that it projects a demure and submissive female Asian person, which I don't agree with personally in regards to Kim or any of the Asian women in the show. But we'll talk about that in a second. Kim in particular, I think, has a ton of agency. Here's my hot take. First of all, as we continue on with this. I think as a role of musical theater, Kim is incredible. That is a monster of a role to take on, just in general.

[James Soule]

Definitely a challenge.

[Matt Koplik]

But I also. I personally think that Kim is a baller character in a lot of ways. She's a survivor.

[James Soule]

Definitely a survivor.

[Matt Koplik]

The only person who can. The only person that can kill Kim is Kim.

[James Soule]

Good point. I will say that we should re. Examine this point. Toward the end of her story.

[Matt Koplik]

There's. There's a. There's a conversation to be had of what's the difference between optimism and naivete? And I think that is something that the show itself struggles to define. But I think that a lot of times that where people have issues with Kim, I actually find very inspiring, if not necessarily realistic. Again, difficult for a show that's trying to find a hardened edge about the Vietnam War. But again, it's also a giant opera.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Which is also true.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And so there's a part of me that wonders, like, okay, to. To parallel Madame Butterfly, which.

[Matt Koplik]

Did we say this is what it's based off of?

[James Soule]

Oh, no, we haven't mentioned that at all.

[Matt Koplik]

It's based off of Madame Butterfly.

[James Soule]

We were too busy talking about passion.

[Matt Koplik]

Should we talk about passion again? Puccini's Madame Butterfly, which is based off of a short story.

[James Soule]

So is it the obligation to sort of adhere to that particular narrative that then informs why we end why Miss Saigon ends in the way that it does? I think we should. We'll touch back on this, you know, as we talk more, a little bit in depth about Kim's narrative.

[Matt Koplik]

Chris basically pays the engineer for Kim to leave. They spend two weeks together in a hotel room in love. Chewie, who is the boy that Kim was originally promised to come back, finds her. Finds her after having deflected, which is.

[James Soule]

An interesting dramatic thing that gets a little bit underplayed. Like, he comes from North Vietnam to South Vietnam, dangerous journey, all kinds of things.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, also because he switched sides, he's with the Viet Cong now.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

But I feel like his journey is, you know, it Was probably very fraught, to say the least. Sure. But he finds her.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And so there's a confrontation. It's during that wedding scene.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

He basically comes back to get her. And then she says off. You switched sides the day my parents died. You're dead to me.

[James Soule]

Again, another moment of agency. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And he's like, well. And then he basically is like, you're dirty. You're with an American. She was like, and what? I'm happy. Fuck off. And I like her. But interesting that you find nuance with the man with Tui and not with the woman.

[James Soule]

Don't. Not like the character of Kim. Let me just say that I think you're right.

[Matt Koplik]

Am I saying his name correctly? It's Tui. Right.

[James Soule]

Tui.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

I think. Again, I think we should continue.

[Matt Koplik]

We'll continue.

[James Soule]

We'll continue with the synopsis.

[Matt Koplik]

We flash forward three years back to.

[James Soule]

The nuances of Kim. Yes, that's right. Which I think is an interesting. I remember thinking was a cool device.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[James Soule]

When I saw the show as a teenager.

[Matt Koplik]

Because before we flash forward three years, the last thing we see is Kim and Chris basically being like, it's us against the world. And, like, he's like, I'm gonna take you to America.

[James Soule]

And it's gonna be wrapping up their duet or their second duet.

[Matt Koplik]

Their second.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And then we get this sequence where now Saigon has fallen under north Vietnamese control. It's under communist control. And then we get to Kim singing a song. And so there's like this.

[Sam]

Well.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so Tui now is like a general.

[James Soule]

Oh, yes, that's right.

[Matt Koplik]

And he finds the engineer who has spent the last three years in the rice fields. Basically.

[James Soule]

In the re education camp.

[Sam]

Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Quote unquote, being deep.

[James Soule]

Yeah. Post RE education.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

He's been deprogrammed. Quote, unquote. Or so he has them believe. He says to them, I speak Uncle Ho. I. I think Uncle Sam. Yes, that's the line.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so basically, Tui says, I have spent the last three years. I cannot find Kim. He goes, you find her. And so are we to assume, too.

[James Soule]

That Kim has been sent to the re education camps?

[Matt Koplik]

It's unclear. It's unclear exactly what Kim has gone through. All we know is that she has evaded.

[James Soule]

Yes. For three years with a child. Which. 100% what you said earlier. She is a survivor. Yeah. I mean, she figured out. We don't know exactly how she did it, but she had to do all kinds of things, I'm sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

To survive, protect her. Kid for three years.

[Matt Koplik]

The one thing, the only thing we know they've. The one thing that thing is very smart of the writers to do is to not give us that much information about what Kim had to do because the more factoid bombs they would drop, the more questions we would have. Yes, but yeah. So Kim now has a child, which Tui discovers and attempts to kill Tam, her son, because he's mixed race. And Tui will have Kim as his bride because that is what they were promised to each other. And now that he's like a general in the new regime, he can't have a stepson in general, but especially a mixed race stepson. So he's going to kill Tam. Kim whips out a gun.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Which, which also an important prop.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, super important. We find out how she got it. Which it's like a very throwaway moment of how she got it. But it's important that she kept onto it. She was able to hold on to a gun and a child for three years and no one knew.

[James Soule]

Let's also give birth to the child.

[Matt Koplik]

Somehow hide a pregnancy. Give birth, hold onto this child, this overgrown skin tag of a person named Tam, and hide a gun on her person for three years. In a communist regime where even the engineer gets into a re education program.

[James Soule]

Your country is in all kinds of turmoil and flux and.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[James Soule]

And economic disaster.

[Matt Koplik]

This baller ass.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Is able to figure it out a.

[James Soule]

Way she found out. Stay alive.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

I, and I might have misspoke. I, I, I'm not actually sure if Tui comes in his first time seeing her in that wedding scene. I actually am not. I'm unclear as to where he was coming from and, like, what he had.

[Matt Koplik]

It's on.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's unclear if he came to Saigon for Kim so much as, like, once he got to Saigon, he started inquiring.

[James Soule]

So I might have misspoken.

[Matt Koplik]

But he does know that she's now with an American because he says something along the lines of like, oh, it's true.

[Sam]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[James Soule]

So there's that, you know, guilt and shame from his perspective.

[Matt Koplik]

But more importantly, what does Kim do to Tuohy?

[James Soule]

He shoots. She shoots. She shoots him.

[Matt Koplik]

Shoots his ass dead.

[James Soule]

Yes. With. With the gun that she's been keeping.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Engineer runs in and is like, what have you done? And then this is the first time he sees the kid.

[Matt Koplik]

She actually seeks out the engineer.

[James Soule]

Oh, no. That's right.

[Matt Koplik]

Because. That's right.

[James Soule]

He went to dreamland and found his little secret stash of stuff. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Because he was going to find a way to use it to get his passport.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And his visa to America. And Kim runs in, and she goes, engineer, I killed Tui. Here's my. And by the way, here's my son.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And he realizes that Tam is half American.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's going to be their ticket out. So they fly. Flee to Bangkok.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Which I guess was like, I don't know the history of this or like. Or what. What the journey would have been if you're.

[Matt Koplik]

They said in the. In the show they were on a boat for about a month.

[Sam]

Right.

[James Soule]

But was Bangkok some sort of, like, neutral zone where you could go?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bangkok was. It was definitely a neutral zone. I mean, it's. You know, it's not exactly great, but.

[James Soule]

Right. They.

[Matt Koplik]

They didn't have to. They, you know, they didn't have to go to re education program.

[James Soule]

Right, right, right. So then the. That's the end. Oh, and then she sings the song of I give my life for you. That's what wraps up act one.

[Matt Koplik]

Act two.

[James Soule]

Act two. Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

In our defense, we have also been kind of going into details and discussing that as we go along.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Act two. So act two opens, and they're in Bangkok.

[Matt Koplik]

Act, I hope, is in America. Oh, wait, hold on.

[James Soule]

We didn't talk about the specifics of that time jump. That's in act one. So it's. It's a little bit like M. Night Shyamalan light. Like, there's a little bit of a twist because Kim's singing. Right. And she's like, last night I.

[Matt Koplik]

The I still believe number.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Right. And you're like, well, who she is. Because she's sort of. And the. The clues are starting to slowly unravel.

[Matt Koplik]

Kim is not in America. She's still.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And she's alive.

[Sam]

And.

[James Soule]

Then we cut to America, and Ellen is singing, and Chris wakes up. And so we know for sure now, well, they've been separated.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And we don't even know her name is Ellen. Unless you're looking at the goddamn Playbill. You're like, who's this? Singing about sleeping, Chris? Like, who's this?

[James Soule]

But the indication that they're in America is hilarious because Ellen wears a sweatshirt, at least in the leg that I saw, that said UCLA on it. So it's like, oh, she's American. We're in America.

[Matt Koplik]

Is that the Manila video? Yeah, I think. And yeah, on Broadway, because we talked about this. Manila is pretty much the Broadway version.

[James Soule]

With, like, with some design, slight tweaks.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, because some things they can't do due to hydraulics, whatnot, but other things are just, you know, I'm sure they, like, can't do all the exact same costumes, but Liz Calloway wears a sort of, like, pink off the shoulder, like, night sweatshirt. There's no. There's no emblem on it.

[Sam]

Yeah, but.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but you know, you know, they're in America because, you know, it's. They're wearing clothes that are not from a communist country.

[James Soule]

Yes. And she's a white lady.

[Matt Koplik]

She's a white lady. Yes. And again, we're just like, I'm sorry, who's this bitch? Who's this goddamn whore in bed with Kim's man?

[James Soule]

Yes, that's right. And then we don't fully discover that until after. Well, but until Kris wakes up in that moment.

[Sam]

Well, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Chris wakes up from a nightmare.

[James Soule]

Yes, From a nightmare. So we know that there's some sort of relationship there.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. She just thinks that he has PTSD from Saigon.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Little does she know that every night he goes to bed and he thinks about Kim.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Right. And also, I want to clarify the time jump here. It's three years later. That's three years later. So three years from the time that he and Chris. Sorry, Chris and Kim had their. Their relationship. Okay, so there's a time jump. Great. So then we're like, what happened?

[Matt Koplik]

We don't know yet.

[James Soule]

And act one ends. Act two. Boy doy. Right. So we're in some sort of like, un. Kind of situation.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So John, who was originally kind of like a FuckBoy in Act 1, is now hardened because he realized. Because he realized that they all left Vietnam a giant mess. And so his cause de celeb is weirdoi, which is children, the mixed race children of Vietnam who, you know, fathers, were GIs and mothers, are enemies and are basically left as sort of like scum of the earth from where they're from because now, like, mixed race children in Vietnam are considered, like, lesser than.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And so basically he's. He's calling to American GIs to go back and, like, care for the children that they've now sired.

[James Soule]

Right. Or maybe bring them back to the States even.

[Matt Koplik]

It's.

[James Soule]

It's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. I think it's more sort of like just do better. Either, like, start supporting them financially or bring them back here.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And so he calls up Chris, and Chris, like, Chris shows up, basically. He's like, great speech, buddy. So why'd you ask me over?

[James Soule]

Yes. Right. He's like, what does this have to do with me? Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He's like, great song, John. But what.

[James Soule]

Why.

[Matt Koplik]

Why am I. Why am I.

[James Soule]

Great gospel number.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But why am I here?

[Sam]

Yeah. And.

[Matt Koplik]

And John's like, well, you know, in musical theater, it's all about economy. So that whole song I sang about, it applies to you, bitch.

[James Soule]

Right, Right. And that's when he shares the news. Right.

[Sam]

You.

[James Soule]

We found Kim. She has a kid. He's.

[Matt Koplik]

He's yours.

[James Soule]

Yours.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because the Engineer, I think, apply. He submits them into the system once they get to Bangkok on purpose, because he wants Chris, I guess, like a.

[James Soule]

Sort of refugee status.

[Matt Koplik]

Right.

[James Soule]

And then mentions that this kid on this application would have a relationship to this particular American soldier.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And Kim gives the name Christopher Scott, which is his name. And because until then, Kim has been able to stay off of anyone's radar. Because Chris says, like, I looked for her for a year. I couldn't find her.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

John says, I look for her too. He goes now. And the only way they were able to find her is because she made herself be found.

[James Soule]

Yes, that's right. Again, with help from the Engineer. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Again, another detail of. In my opinion, what makes Kim kind of baller is like, the only person who can kill Kim is Kim. The only person can find Kim is if Kim wants you to find.

[James Soule]

If she wants you to find her.

[Sam]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

With. With the gun somewhere up her butthole.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm sorry. When I. When I see a badass bitch like Christy Thomas in Babysitter's Club, I'm like, I must pay my respects.

[James Soule]

Understandable. Understandable. So Chris finds out. Now, how much does Ellen know at this point?

[Matt Koplik]

Ellen knows nothing.

[James Soule]

Ellen knows nothing. Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Another reason why Chris is the enemy.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Right. Chris is the villain of the story. Okay, so then. But does John. John only tells Chris in this moment.

[Matt Koplik]

Chris.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And basically, Chris. Chris is.

[James Soule]

But doesn't he end the scene with, like, Ellen has to know or something?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, first, Chris is like, what am I supposed to do? I have a new life now. I'm married to Ellen. And John's like, that's not my problem. You have something to do. You have a responsibility.

[James Soule]

It's a responsibility. And a true responsibility, an actual responsibility, a flesh and blood responsibility.

[Matt Koplik]

I also love because Chris is always talking about, like, you know, he's got these night terrors about Kim, and so he's first relieved that she's alive, then to find out he has a son. And he has. The lyrics are something along the lines of like, you won't believe it, John. But, like, I dreamt about this, you know, in my nightmares, Chris can literally suck on a grenade.

[James Soule]

He is definitely. He is the villain.

[Matt Koplik]

Worst. But he basically says, like, I can't tell Ellen. She knows nothing about that. That's like my past life. And John. And basically John's like, well, you have to go to Bangkok to get your son.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then Chris basically says, like, okay, yeah, you're right. But first, Ellen's got to know.

[Sam]

Yes. Right.

[James Soule]

And that's how that scene ends.

[Matt Koplik]

So we know that he's gonna tell Ellen, but he all. He still is the worst because he doesn't tell her everything.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

We go to Bangkok. Kim is now a dancing bar girl. And the engineer is basically like, one of those guys you see in Vegas. He wrestles people up.

[James Soule]

Yeah. He's like tourists to Bangkok.

[Matt Koplik]

He's those guys in Vegas with, like, the flip cards. And he's like, hustling you on the street, like, come to this bar. Come to the spar. So he's not necessarily selling women. He's selling a club where women dance.

[James Soule]

Also, he has very little power because there's the owner of the club.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

So he doesn't own anything.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

No, he's.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

He's been demoted.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He's not happy.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They're in a safer space.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And John shows up. The engineer takes John to Kim.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Where they. Where John then meets Tam. And John keeps trying to tell Kim.

[James Soule]

That Chris is not married. And I remember thinking in this moment too, like, why doesn't he just say it? I don't. I. I feel like it doesn't. It didn't. That didn't ring true to me because.

[Matt Koplik]

Drama, but also.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Right.

[James Soule]

Manufactured drama.

[Matt Koplik]

The thing they try to do. So they take that song Too Much for One Heart, which got cut in London, and then they repurposed it in this scene. And it's basically like, Kim. He keeps telling Kim things about Chris. Like, you understand, like, yes. Chris came back. He didn't talk to him for a year. He was super depressed. He kept trying to find you. He thought you were dead. And she goes, I know. Like, I felt the same. And he goes. But then he finally picked himself back up. She's like, I'm so glad. And now we can be together. Right.

[James Soule]

And so basically, he's getting closer and closer. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And every time, John keeps trying to get to the issue of, like, you don't understand, like, he had to move on from you. Kim doesn't hear that. She just hears, like, Chris loves me. Chris was upset, and now he's like a person again.

[James Soule]

And then. And then he says he's here. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And John says something along the lines of in his inner monologue, like, they don't tell you in files. Like, there's a person here with feelings and hope. He's like, I can't be the one to dash your dreams. Also not totally John's job anyway. Like, Chris should be the one to be like, Kim, I'm sorry. I'm married now. But John is a stronger man than Chris, so he probably should have anyway.

[James Soule]

True. And I just think based on what we see of him at the beginning of Act 2, I don't know, it just rang a little false to me. He's like, I can't tell her now. I came all this way and I can't tell her. You could argue that it's the more humane thing to do in this instance. But you know what?

[Matt Koplik]

John has also been painted pretty much up until that point, is the only actual addition adult in the show. And there's. You could paint.

[James Soule]

Oh, that's true.

[Matt Koplik]

You could paint, like, reasons. And I say that as someone, like, adult in the sense of he's the most realistic. He's the most.

[James Soule]

Maybe diplomatic.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And he's willing.

[James Soule]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Willing to make the hard decisions and do the hard things. So this is, like, the first time he doesn't go through with it. And his reasoning is kind of dumb. And I think you could always argue.

[James Soule]

It is a little tenuous, the reasoning. Yeah, but, but, but, but that does propel the next yes moment of the story.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

So he tells Kim that Chris is in Bangkok. He just arrived. And the engineers goes out to find out exactly where he is.

[James Soule]

Yeah, well, but he says he's gonna bring him here.

[Sam]

Yes. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

He's gonna bring Chris over.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

John says he's gonna bring Chris here. So stay here. We'll be back.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

And then the engineer, I think sort of mistrusting that or something, or like he might get pulled out of this arrangement.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

The engineer does not want to leave anything to chance, so he goes out and finds out where Chris is. And in this exact moment, Kim has a nightmare where she remembers the night that Saigon fell.

[James Soule]

The ghost of Tui comes back.

[Sam]

Yep.

[James Soule]

And then this explains that gap in Act 1.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Basically, Chris was dumb and has been dumb for a very long time.

[James Soule]

Yeah. Why did he say. Because it's so. It's so flippant, and I can't. I don't know why it's so flippant because they. They knew what was happening. This was not a surprise. The day of the fall of Saigon.

[Matt Koplik]

Chris knew that Saigon was falling.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

And he's like, stay here.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, the day. The day that.

[James Soule]

Stay outside the base.

[Matt Koplik]

The day that he called jon in Act 1 to be like, I'm kind of in love.

[James Soule]

Totally.

[Matt Koplik]

And Jon's like, dude, Saigon is falling. Like, we maybe have like two weeks left until the new regime takes over.

[James Soule]

Things are not safe. This is not. This is not a stable time, so you should act accordingly.

[Matt Koplik]

And so Chris's thinking is, oh, great, I will start setting up paperwork so when we do go to the States, like, I can marry Kim and we can get her out of here. But he's not thinking, like, time is of the essence in terms of, like, let's start packing. Like, let's be ready to go at a moment's notice.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

He's more just like, oh, I'll start taking care of, like, the precautions so we don't have to sign any stupid paperwork once we get to the States. He's like, but until then, like, let's keep fucking. And so when the flashback, they get her paperwork and it's like, not really enough, but it's enough to get her on the helicopter or on the boat or whatever they intend to go.

[James Soule]

Yeah, whatever that specific detail is. But then he leaves. That's the part where I'm like, they.

[Matt Koplik]

Go back to the hotel and then like, yeah, he.

[James Soule]

He goes back to the. He goes to the embassy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, he has to.

[James Soule]

And he's like, here's my gun again.

[Matt Koplik]

He goes to the embassy because it's his job. Like, he thinks he's going back for another day at the office.

[James Soule]

Yeah, that part. Because he's dumb, James.

[Matt Koplik]

He's dumb. I don't think it rings false. I think the show has definitely painted Chris to be an idiot. Or at the very least, like, Chris is not young and naive and not forward thinking.

[James Soule]

Yeah, okay.

[Matt Koplik]

He gets a lot of warning signs that he just blatantly ignores where.

[James Soule]

So, like, in the Eva Van Hoff production, Chris would be cast as like a 13 year old boy.

[Matt Koplik]

In the Eva Van Hoff production, I am no longer alive because I will ever, ever, ever want to see it. I don't want to see that production ever.

[James Soule]

I don't know. Light it on fire.

[Matt Koplik]

Can we put Eva and Jafe on a raft and set him out to sea? I don't want to deal with that ever again.

[James Soule]

I'd be curious what liquid would like, start raining down onto the stage.

[Matt Koplik]

Come. Yeah, he would rain. Come on stage. Okay, wait.

[James Soule]

We still haven't finished the synopsis. Okay, so we find out Saigon falls, the helicopter scene, dramaturgically. Well, historically, and I would even say dramaturgically. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

It happened.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And it was Operation Frequent Wind. It was the last two days of basically, America's presence in Vietnam. And it was the massive evacuation of everybody, like military personnel, embassy personnel, but also, like, any sort of. Any Vietnamese that were associated. Remotely associated with. With the South Vietnamese and with the American. With the American side.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

And so, yeah, historically, dramaturgically, sound.

[Matt Koplik]

That's how Kim also has Chris's gun. He leaves his gun with her while he goes to the embassy. And she. She immediately runs the embassy because she realizes everything's falling apart. She tries to get on the helicopter. She can't. Chris.

[James Soule]

Well, she tries to get in the embassy. She can't get in the embassy.

[Matt Koplik]

She can't. In the embassy. Chris. I don't know what Chris's plan is when he's calling her and he's like, please answer the phone. Hurry up and get here.

[James Soule]

I don't know, take a taxi.

[Matt Koplik]

Would it be, like, instructions of, like, here's how you. How you get through the doors or something?

[James Soule]

Maybe I don't, like, why are you calling? I'm gonna send a pedicab for you.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, Just like, tell the people at the front. Be like, hey, my wife. My unquote wife is out there. But anyway, he gets away. He can't find her. And so he peaces out. And his last words before he gets on the helicopters.

[James Soule]

Cr.

[Sam]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Soule]

He yells at Kim. Although John at one point has to, like, punch him to be like, you're getting on this helicopter.

[Matt Koplik]

He keeps on trying to get to the gates to find Kim. And basically John's like, you have to survive. I'm not leaving here without you.

[James Soule]

And also, I like, you know, I feel like there are these lyrical moments that are, like, that ring true to me as far as the larger context of this terrible war. And so at one point, John says, she's not the only person. Will have failed.

[Matt Koplik]

Will have betrayed.

[James Soule]

Will have betrayed. Yes. So I feel like there are these moments where it's like, oh, yes, that lyric is an example of what these creatives were trying to do with this story.

[Matt Koplik]

I think there are definitely nuggets in the show where the intention of the execution perfectly sync up and flashes of it.

[James Soule]

I'm gonna.

[Matt Koplik]

That's why I say that's why I say nuggets.

[James Soule]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Nuggets. Not. I didn't say pockets. Nuggets. And I think that they're frequent enough that you can see the potential of the whole show, but they're not frequent enough where you're like, you know what? I can forgive the flaws. Like, it's. It's every. It's uneven that way.

[James Soule]

I think that's right.

[Matt Koplik]

But yeah. So then we flash back to present day.

[James Soule]

Yes. We get back to present day.

[Matt Koplik]

Engineer gives Kim Chris's hotel information.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

So she runs off. Yes.

[James Soule]

She goes to the hotel.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

And she meets Ellen.

[Sam]

Yep.

[James Soule]

Ellen thinks she's the maid. At first she says, microaggression. Yes, totally. She's not the maid, she says. But then Kim's like, oh, you must be John's wife. Yeah. And Ellen realizes, like, Kim, like, clicks in, and it's like, oh.

[Matt Koplik]

And then another microaggression. Ellen says, please come in. No one will hurt you.

[James Soule]

Oh, right.

[Matt Koplik]

See, when people are like, ellen's not the villain, and I have. I have listeners who sent in stuff they want us to cover. One person's like, ellen's not. Ellen is not the villain. She is a human being with emotions and complications. I'm like, ellen is not the villain. First of all, I guess society is the villain, but Chris is the villain.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Ellen, I do think sucks.

[James Soule]

Cameron McIntosh is the villain.

[Matt Koplik]

But Ellen I do think sucks in a lot of ways. And we'll talk about her big song as well.

[Sam]

Yes, but.

[James Soule]

And I think that what you just said about the character might even explain this weird evolution of, like, how many songs has she had? So, like, the London cast recording version. The original London cast recording version is a song that's slightly different from Broadway, which is very different from the revival.

[Matt Koplik]

So the first one she had was, it's her or me. And then it was now that I've seen her.

[James Soule]

Now they've seen her, and then.

[Matt Koplik]

And then maybe take a song from.

[James Soule]

Annie and they put it in.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. I don't know when they changed it to now that I've seen her. Because it's. I think it's on the London cast recording, isn't it? Claire Moore is definitely starting to sing it. You know what?

[James Soule]

You know where it is. It's that symphonic recording.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Well, that's.

[James Soule]

So it existed, I guess, somewhere in.

[Matt Koplik]

It's on that original.

[James Soule]

In the realm of that original production.

[Matt Koplik]

Is. Wait, is. Is what's. What's her song, though? And the London recording.

[James Soule]

Am I. I think that's. It's not now that I've seen her. That's the one on the. The London recording is her or me.

[Matt Koplik]

No, the London recording is now that I've seen her. So I have. I have to imagine it's her or me was maybe what opened the show, because I don't know.

[James Soule]

And then they changed. Like, this evolution.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

I feel like. Or this attempt to try to futz with these songs is an indication of. They wanted Ellen to be something. The creatives. I mean, wanted Ellen be something.

[Matt Koplik]

They wanted audiences to like Ellen.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They wanted to make it a true love triangle. And the truth is that it's not one.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But it's not. I also have issues with the point. It's not even. First of all, some people are like, ellen shouldn't have a song because you don't care about Ellen. And I'm like a true. But also my other issue with the song is what the song is about. And I'll.

[James Soule]

But also which song. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

All of them. All three of them. All three of them. All three of them I had issues with.

[James Soule]

So back to the synopsis. They meet. There's a sort of this confrontation.

[Matt Koplik]

And first, Ellen is like, no, maid. Don't turn the bed. Then Ellen is like, okay, not maid. Asian woman, come in. I ain't gonna hurt you. And then she was like, I'm Chris's wife. And Kim is like, da. Fuck.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And she.

[James Soule]

And understandably so.

[Sam]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And we learned that Ellen didn't know the full story. Yes.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is fair, because when she says, I'm Chris's wife, and she says it's sensitively thinking. All she knows is Kim and Chris lived together for two weeks before Chris left for Vietnam.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And in that time, they were. And.

[James Soule]

And they know. And she knows about the kid.

[Matt Koplik]

She knows about the kid.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But that's.

[James Soule]

So this is just like a tris.

[Matt Koplik]

She does it.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

She. She assumed that, like, they were. Yeah. That they were sort of kind of just hooking up on the slide.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then she finds out that. No, there were emotions. There was a ceremony.

[James Soule]

Ceremony. A wedding ceremony.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

The way that she. Because Kim at one point refers to him as her husband.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's. Leia does it. Absolutely. The best. Because it's basically what it is is Kim. First, Kim has a moment of heartbreak, and then she puts herself back together.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Because then there is a whole journey there. Microaggression number three. Ellen going, as for the child, you say it's Chris's.

[James Soule]

Oh, yes. That's Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I know I haven't said this word yet on the podcast, and I say it at least 10 times every episode, so I gotta say it now. What a cunt. And again. And the writers know that it's a microaggression because every. Kim has to look at her, be like, yes, Madame, my child is Chris's.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And then she basically says, I want my son to have a good life. And. And Ellen goes, well, we. Chris and I are in agreement that, like, we're gonna help take care of Tam. And so Kim goes, great, so then Tam's gonna go with you, right? Kim doesn't say, you're gonna take us. She doesn't say, I want Chris. She says, whatever. She says, you're gonna take my son right?

[James Soule]

Directly to.

[Matt Koplik]

And Ellen says, absolutely not. We can't do that. We can't separate you from.

[James Soule]

From.

[Matt Koplik]

Miss. From.

[James Soule]

Well, and also she says, we're gonna have kids of our own.

[Matt Koplik]

We want kids of our own.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Chris and I are married. We want kids of our own. And Kim just keeps saying over and over again, you'll take Tam with you. And then Ellen says, it can't be. And then Kim again, baller move. She turns around and then just stares daggers at her and sings on one high note, if you're saying this because you made him change his mind, and then he's got to leave us both behind. And then the way Leia says, if you're saying that because my husband has another wife. And then she says, you are going to take Tammy, I will not have my son be disregarded. She goes, and if. And if neither of us is so significant to him, he can come to my hotel and say that to my face and runs out of the room. What's Ellen's reaction? She wants my husband, bitch. That's not what she said. That's why I hate the song.

[James Soule]

Oh, my gosh, that's all true. All three of the songs have some.

[Matt Koplik]

Variation now that I've seen her. And maybe. And even maybe, she's like, oh, and it's just a trick. She's trying to trick me. She wants my man. She didn't say nothing about wanting your man.

[James Soule]

All she just said was what she actually said. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And they're like, but we want people to care about Ellen. I'm like, then listen to what Kim was saying, you fucking cunt.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

There's this weird intro to the song, and then it switches, like, so jarringly, abruptly to this other completely different kind of song, and it's just.

[Matt Koplik]

And Listen, we have some very talented white women play Ellen. We've had Liz Calloway. We've had Ruthie Henschel. We've had Katie Rose Clark. We've had.

[James Soule]

There was Margaret Ann Gates, who was Asian American. She played the role.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

We had Claire Moore. We also had Christian Knoll on tour. Oh, we've had some also baller men play Chris, which I'm just like, oh, just putting lipstick on a pig. Having Steven Pasquale and Will Swenson and Jared Emick and Will Chase all play Chris at one point.

[James Soule]

Oh, I saw Jared Emick. He was on the tour then.

[Matt Koplik]

You saw the first national, baby.

[James Soule]

Yes, I saw Jared Emick, if I remember.

[Matt Koplik]

And it was right before he did. Or maybe he went back to do it after Dan Yankees, because I think.

[James Soule]

It might have been after Damian Key, because he.

[Matt Koplik]

He opened the tour and then he might have come back. I mean, but that's also like, you're a theater. You know, this life where it's like sometimes people who did the show three years ago come back in for like a week to do the show.

[Sam]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Soule]

Make a little extra cash.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah, that's. That's what they do at Mormon all the time.

[James Soule]

Something, something. A show they already know. They don't need to rehearse. Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

They just go right into it. They do that with Wicked all the time. They do it Mormon all the time. Anyway. Yes. Ellen basically sings her dumb song. Chris comes back, she goes, hey, you missed some information, skipped a few steps, bitch.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And rather than be justifiably pissed at him, she's like, what's going on? And then he sings his whole sob story and she goes, I forgive you, Chris. Hate it again.

[James Soule]

Rings false. Because also he is the kind of character, I guess, that just attracts these women who are, to a fault, gracious and grace filled and give him so much benefit of the doubt because he sings about four stanzas and then she's like, it's okay, come here, let me hold you. He, he.

[Matt Koplik]

Chris gets grace from strong women who he. And he doesn't deserve it.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And anyway, I don't. Because his song, also the song he sings when Ellen's like, the. Is up. He says it. There's. I think it's actually smart to kind of acknowledge this truth about his relationship to Kim, which we'll talk about. But basically he's like underwriting everything they had by basically saying, like, you know what? I was depressed, Saigon was awful, and I sort of projected all hope and optimism onto her and I thought that that was love. And then I came back here and you pulled me out of the gutter and you're what's true. And Ellen falls for a hook, line and sinker and she's like, oh, it's okay baby, come here.

[James Soule]

Right. And also here's the other thing about this is the timeline of it.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

I don't know if that's enough time to like have epiphanies and to change and evolve and like, so, so that means to me then, okay, the construction of this Chris character, which is why, you know, half facetious but half truthful that he's the villain, that from the start of the show there's no actual introspection, self reflection that he's done, ever done, has done in the three years.

[Matt Koplik]

Let's get to the current because Chris is another 90 minute episode. We're gonna talk about him and Ellen and all of it, but basically Chris and Ellen, okay. We will send money all the time and that will help.

[James Soule]

To Bangkok. They'll be in Bangkok. They'll be in Kim and Tam will live in Bangkok.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And we'll send money.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And basically John's like, that won't work. And meanwhile Kim starts formulating a plan. She goes to an engineer, she goes, we're going to the US Start packing your bags. Go take care of like I'm gonna go grab Tam. Whatever. Engineer sings his song American Dream, which people want us to cover as well. Just in terms of why does he get the 11 o' clock number. People call the engineer a secondary character. It's fascinating. And then the show, it is worth also talking about.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

We then come back to Kim who brings Tam with her to her room. Basie sings to him, says, you know I love you. Look at my face. Remember me.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And look how happy I am.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

She goes, don't ever think of me as anything but happy like I am. You're gonna go see with your dad. And she says some very double sided lyrics. Basically saying like, I. Even though I'm gonna seem far away, I'm always gonna be with you.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Chris shows up with the engineer and John and Ellen and Taehyung's off to see them outside of the room. Kim looks off stage with that. God will get you for that. Walter Stair closes the curtain, shoots herself.

[James Soule]

Oh, I got a mod reference.

[Matt Koplik]

I love it. Shoots herself. Chris runs in and then Kim is in his arms. He goes, why did you do this? And she says, just hold me, please just hold me.

[James Soule]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

And then she sings one Line dies. And Chris goes, no. And the curtain falls. And that's the end of the show, Right?

[James Soule]

Right. Yes. And then curtain call, and the kid gets the last bow.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

We did it.

[Matt Koplik]

The synopsis, end of episode. So first. Okay, so there are a lot of things we can cover in terms of.

[James Soule]

Problematic hitting this thing. Sorry.

[Matt Koplik]

You do. It's your top energy, baby. You keep hitting everything in your way.

[James Soule]

Totally.

[Matt Koplik]

You guys aren't looking at James right now, but he's just, like, swinging around this whole room being like, look at me, look at me.

[James Soule]

I take up so much space.

[Matt Koplik]

You do, Yep. So there's. We've covered things sort of as we've been doing. Part of the reason why this synopsis took so long as we, like, kept getting sidetracked, talking about things, things that people wanted us to talk about. There's a lot to cover in terms of the quote, unquote, problematicness of it. Is there something immediately burning on your brain that you want to cover? Right now? We have to put a pin in Chris, because that's 45 minutes.

[James Soule]

Okay. Yes, there is. And I don't know if I'll be able to articulate it very well, but I'm going to try.

[Matt Koplik]

You won't, so try.

[James Soule]

I think that the show exists. It is what it is. And I think it's the argument with a lot of Asian Americans, particularly Vietnamese. Vietnamese Americans. Is that great, okay, this version of whatever the Vietnam War or this version of. Or this particular kind of story exists. There were so many other kinds of stories that exists and that. That. That exist or existed at the time. And so it's like, great, we have these tropes. Do we need to keep seeing them over and over and over again? In another revival of Miss Saigon and regional productions of Miss Saigon, I think that that argument is valid because you're right. Kim has these moments of agency. But for me, thinking about this woman who starts the show in the way she does has this gap of three years. We don't know exactly what happened, but we know some basic biographical details that are very telling about the kind of woman, the kind of person that she is. I have a hard time connecting that to the way the story ends. Now, it's true, it is a decision and a choice that she makes, but it doesn't feel like the choice that that kind of survivor would make. So that part of it rings true. And, you know, what's interesting is that, you know, the creators talk about, you know, at length about how the inspiration for the show came from this Picture.

[Matt Koplik]

That they saw this woman, the ultimate sacrifice.

[James Soule]

Yeah, yeah. This woman that was letting her kid go to leave with some, you know, her father, I guess the kid's father was in the state, was a gi.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

But the woman, the mother doesn't kill herself. Like she's there at the airport. The pictures of her at the airport. Yes, I guess from her, the mother's protector, giving her child a chance at a better life, whatever that means.

[Matt Koplik]

Right.

[James Soule]

To go to the States. So this whole thing of like the ma, the Madame Butterfly thing, it just feels like this sort of, for me, this false obligation to connect it back to this other story that, you know, is fine. But going back to our conversation about it's this just sort of romanticized version of love. At least that's what it feels to me.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And you know, so I think about things that exist now, works, stage works that exist now, like Vietcon, you know, that, that make an attempt to sort of take back some narrative power.

[Sam]

Right.

[James Soule]

And the kinds of characters that populate, like that play and its sequel, poor yellow rednecks, they're survivors, just like Kim, just like the engineer. Right. They figured out all the ways that they could to stay alive. Right. And to thrive wherever they were. And none of those characters, the option, the option was not to kill myself. The options, there were other options.

[Sam]

Great.

[James Soule]

And so I, I, I do feel like, okay, look, this show is, has become more or less a dominant narrative. Right. Because, you know, the most recent Broadway revival, the tour that traveled the country, it's a title that's often done now in a lot of regional theaters. Fine. It's the, I guess this is my long winded way of saying the point I'm trying to make is that it's time maybe for other stories that in and around the same time period, more or less about similar kinds of characters.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I think that is true of everything. Sure.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Miss Saigon included. It's, oh, I always want more stories. Different kinds of stories. Yeah, let's tell like 20 more stories of this era from different perspectives. So let's actually work backwards then, since we're starting from that. So, yes, as you mentioned, the inspiration for the show was that photo, the, the Ultimate Sacrifice, which Claude Michel Chamber found and brought to Alamo Bleu. And of course, because they are them, it reminded them of the opera Madame Butterfly, which they decided that they wanted to adapt. They had. Just like Les Mis had just transferred from the Barbican at Royal Shakespeare Company to the Palace Theater, where it was now officially open ended Right. And they were sort of like in a Rodgers and Hammerstein, Oklahoma. Situation. Although minus the critical praise, because Les Mis was famously trashed in one day. That's an interesting parallel. It got much better reviews.

[James Soule]

But there was the glow of success.

[Sam]

Yes, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Like this huge, huge phenomenon that was very quickly sweeping the whole world, actually, at that point. And so it was like, what the fuck do we do now? And so Claude Michel found the photo. He really liked it. They decided they were going to go with Madame Butterfly. And they were like, well, how do we adapt it? And I don't know which one of them had the idea. It was probably Alain, if I'm being honest, of, well, why don't we bring it to the Vietnam War? Which I gotta say, like, if you're like, okay, we want to do a modern retelling of Mountain Butterfly, but we're setting it against the Vietnam War. Part of me is like, that's a. It's a really good idea. The question then goes into the details in the story of it all, but, like, an execution. But, like, you know, when we hear, like, oh, like, I want to set it on this backdrop. Like, that's a. The synergy is good. It's there.

[James Soule]

And so they, like. There's a scaffolding. Yes, that exists. I agree. I think that's true. I think that's true. And because if we're talking about epic human events that elicit epic human emotions.

[Matt Koplik]

I know they brought on Richard Malpy Jr. To do the American translation of the lyrics as well as a collaborator. And was that.

[James Soule]

Was he involved in the London production?

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Oh, he was.

[Matt Koplik]

That's right.

[James Soule]

I remember he was at that first day of rehearsal in that documentary.

[Matt Koplik]

So they. Schomburg and Boublil, they did, like, one year's work on basically, Act One, and it was all in French, and they sent it to Cameron Mackintosh. And then I think Cameron brought Richard on because they said they wanted an American. They needed an American perspective.

[Sam]

Totally.

[Matt Koplik]

Because what they said was, Europeans famously don't know a lot about the Vietnam War, specifically its impact on the rest of the world and America. So they wanted that perspective. And Richard's a smart dude and he's a good lyricist, and I think he had just done song and dance for Cameron. So he was like, I'm a big fan of Baby. Richard is a much better lyricist than Miss Saigon would have you believe. And he's got some good ones in that show. But then there are other ones where, like, the scanning is just terrible.

[James Soule]

Scanning. Yeah. And I'm sure that that has a lot to do with the specific requirements of this project. He wasn't coming up with the lyrics out of thin air. They had to adhere to whatever the story.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. And if you listen to the London recording and then the changes they make for the symphonic recording Broadway, they do, I think, change a lot of the lyrics for the better.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Just in terms of scanning one of my personal favorites, in terms of just like. In terms of just like the fuck. In the opening number, the Tonight I Will Be Miss Saigon, one of the girls sang originally, Tonight you'll be misjumped upon.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

But the way it's sung, the way it scans, it sounds almost like she's. I always thought it was a person. Like, I thought it was Tonight yout'll be Ms. John Devon.

[James Soule]

I'm like, who?

[Matt Koplik]

I was like, who the fuck is John Devon?

[James Soule]

Because it's like a bunch of. Like, I'm not a musician in any way, but, like, it's just so fast.

[Matt Koplik]

Right. Jumped upon Tonight you'll be Miss Jumped Upon. Yeah. And so now it becomes. I spread the word. It's Miss Jump Saigon from the engineer, which, to Heidner's credit, that's them being like, oh, let's re. Emphasize, like, what's going on. The engineer is telling everyone on the street we're doing Miss Saigon tonight.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So they bring in Malpy. Heitner got involved because originally macintosh wanted him to direct the London Follies that he did in the 80s. Because Heitner was, like, this huge wunderkind for the opera world, Right. Yeah. He comes in hot doing stuff for Eno and a bunch of other stuff. And macintosh wanted him to do Follies after seeing a production of Scarlet Pimpernel that he did, and Sondheim came to see it, and basically he was like, he's very talented. I have absolutely no idea if he can handle Follies, though. Like, it's a musical. It's not an opera.

[James Soule]

And who ended up directing that revival? I don't remember this one with Diana Rigg.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. It's Mike. It was Mike Akrand.

[James Soule]

Oh.

[Matt Koplik]

Who went on to do Crazy Freedom.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, that London Follies is very divisive in general, so who knows? But Heitner has said, like, I'm glad I wasn't asked. I wouldn't have been able to do it justice.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But by the time Miss Saigon happens, he's done Magic Flute, he's done a whole bunch of other stuff. And Miss Saigon Is very. A different assignment than folly. Truly an opera, just in terms of scale, in terms of emotional proportions. They said, we need someone who can handle this scope and can sort of, like, hoard lots of people on stage and all this stuff. And as Heitner has said in interviews, he was like. It was a really big show, and at the time, I was into big, so, like, he was, like. It was very easy for me to do.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So they do their research, they do the casting, all that stuff. It opens in London. It's a huge, huge hit. They get ready for Broadway, where there's already controversy because of the Madame Butterfly stuff. Which brings us back to our point about the ending. Kim has always had to commit suicide at the end. That was always like. That's always where it had to build to. Now the question you're bringing up is like, does that make sense in this. In this story? I think it could, potentially. I think where the show fails is giving enough time for that moment to make sense, at least emotionally for us. We don't really get to see the moment where Kim decides she's gonna do that.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

We kind of see her, like a thought process or like a. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

She makes that decision off stage.

[James Soule]

Yeah. When does she make it? Exactly. Right. Because does she make it in the confrontation with Ellen when she realizes and, you know, I mean, who knows? It's unclear, I think.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

If you're asking me, I think she makes the decision between her leaving the hotel room and when she comes back on.

[James Soule]

Sure. So off stage. Yeah, exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Which, you know, and there are some shows that have had to do that, where characters have these giant arcs off stage.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, you know, Nelly in South Pacific basically has to become unracist in between a scene change. But to be fair, they plant the seeds that she's going to become unracist before she goes off stage.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And the Kim in the show, basically, like, she's in a fury. She basically is like, if Tam. And I mean nothing if, you know, if Tam can't go with you, Chris has got to tell me to my face and then runs off. And then the plan sort of formulates off stage. And she comes on, and we see that she's now determined. And so I think that's what makes the suicide not land so well, is that we don't get to take that journey with her. Instead, we get.

[James Soule]

We get.

[Matt Koplik]

We have. Instead, we are treated to Chris explaining to Ellen why Kim doesn't matter anymore and why Ellen matters.

[James Soule]

That's right. Which, again, that's Right. Like his reassessment of that. You know, because in the moment when we saw it all in act one, okay. Being who he is. Fine. Understanding all of his flaws and weaknesses, but he was ready to take. Bring her to the United States. Right. And live their lives together.

[Matt Koplik]

He was.

[James Soule]

And so then in his reassessment in this, you know, I can only imagine is a dramatic three years of his life back in the States. His reassessment is exactly what he describes to Ellen in the hotel room.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And I just. And so. Right. So we don't share in her journey of arriving at that decision. And then all we've seen of her up to this point is the survivor is the character with enormous. Everything, enormous heart, enormous moments of the agency. This person who's figured out a way, what. Whatever. All the things that she had to do to arrive in Bangkok.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

In this moment. And so in the span of, like, 20 minutes, she decides, well, this is the only option. And they.

[Matt Koplik]

They won't take my son. So I got it. Can I tell you something, though, that I thought of? And this is not really her intention. This is not her plan. It's not what the writers are going for. But this is why I think actually Kim killing herself is secretly baller. Because this is where Kim is playing chess and everyone else is playing checkers.

[James Soule]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

So Ellen and Chris, their journey.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Again. You know, Ellen finds Chris after a year of being depressed and, like, she becomes the new Kim. She gets him out of his funk. He's able to be a person again, but she can't totally. Because he still has these night terrors.

[James Soule]

Right. And she's. And he's still keeping some big secret from her.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Chris was haunting you. Something you can't comprehend.

[James Soule]

Bitch. And they've been married for two years or a year.

[Matt Koplik]

They were. They basically. They courted for a year. Married and married for one.

[Sam]

Great. Great.

[James Soule]

It's good to be with people who keep huge secrets from you. Great.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Keep going. Sorry, you're interrupted. So.

[Matt Koplik]

Ellen feels like there's. There's something going on with her and Chris that's like, keeping them from truly, like, taking the next step. They don't have kids of their own. He wakes up in these night terrors, and she doesn't know what it is. So also another wonderful, healthy thing to do. Yes. Commit to the man where you're like, there's something between us.

[James Soule]

Right. And you're not telling it. You're not saying it to me openly or freely.

[Matt Koplik]

The man I married But I'm gonna stay with you. The man I marry, the man I married wakes up in the middle of the night in sweat, shouting someone else's name. We're fine. We're totally fine. To the point where I still believe.

[James Soule]

To the point where it's deciphered. She can say a woman's name.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. When Chris comes back, what should be the moment where Ellen goes, you are far more fucked up than I realize. We shouldn't have gotten married. Like, there's a whole thing going on here. And this is also far more complicated.

[James Soule]

How could you not tell me this thing?

[Matt Koplik]

There's something so much.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And basically he goes, like, what do you want me to do? And he.

[James Soule]

And he.

[Matt Koplik]

And he's taking on. He's. He's admitting fault while not totally taking on responsibility. He's doing that thing that a lot of people do where it's. I know. I fucked up. I know, and I feel terrible now. What are you gonna do about it, Dick?

[James Soule]

Yeah, right.

[Matt Koplik]

What do you mean, what am I gonna do about it? I'm gonna send money to this kid while my white wife and I go back to the States. He's willing to feel guilty because that's his penance, but he won't actually do shit. He won't do the hard thing. And Ellen is not doing the smart thing.

[James Soule]

So.

[Matt Koplik]

And so what Chris's soliloquy does for both of them is it makes them go, it's fine. We've cleared the air, and we're better than ever. Like, the problem really is, like, the Kim and Tam of it all. But, like, we'll figure it out. We'll do it. We'll do. We'll do. We'll do the honorable thing.

[Sam]

Ish.

[Matt Koplik]

We'll give money, and we'll help support. But, like, we want to live our own lives because we're gonna be better than ever now. And. And.

[James Soule]

And Chris, we've had a really meaningful talk in this hotel room.

[Matt Koplik]

And Chris is like, I always thought that I had Kim's blood on my hands, but I don't. Like, she's alive. She'll do just fine. And they even say together, like, the girl is smart. They call her the girl. The girl is smart.

[James Soule]

The girl.

[Matt Koplik]

And so now when Kim kills herself and dies in Chris's arms, this is not her intention, but this is me being like, girl, you're playing chess. Now. Her blood is literally on his hands. He cannot escape that pain. And he and Ellen are now forever fucked because they have to take Tam with Them. So now they have a child that is only biologically Chris's. It's not Ellen's. And physically, everyone knows you can't hide that shit.

[James Soule]

And so every day.

[Matt Koplik]

Every day is a reminder. And the reason why Tam is with them is not because of their own due diligence. It's because Ken did this. And also, Ellen is going to have to forever live with the fact that actually, no, this person that he had before me is actually a deep connection that I can't just underwrite. Our relationship is kind of forever.

[James Soule]

So.

[Matt Koplik]

And so they. Even if they stay together, and maybe they will, it is not gonna be good.

[James Soule]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

Tam might have a better life in terms of, like, capitalism, but, like, I think Tam will. I think Tam will overall be fine. But in terms of, like, Chris is.

[James Soule]

Gonna be a raging alcoholic if he's not already.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Kim has Chris and Ellen's happiness or forever. And for that, I say, good on you, Kim. Kimberly. Okay, Kimberly.

[James Soule]

No last name.

[Matt Koplik]

Good on you.

[James Soule]

Let's run with this.

[Matt Koplik]

Fuck those people's lives.

[James Soule]

Let's run with this idea. So now what I want is the creative team to go back and the curtain comes down. Curtain comes back up. I want an epilogue where Kim just comes out in a white dress and she explains all of this.

[Matt Koplik]

It's them. It's them going. So we watched that movie Saltburn, and what we really loved is the moment where Barry Chiodi. Oh, my God, don't worry for. Very cozy.

[James Soule]

Running through the streets of Saigon naked.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

I love it. I love it.

[Matt Koplik]

And she goes.

[James Soule]

And she's like, that would fix it for me. I'll be honest. Yeah, that would fix it for me.

[Matt Koplik]

No, but that. It goes against her character, obviously, but I.

[James Soule]

That she's manipulative for the beginning, but.

[Matt Koplik]

But also, like, what makes it kind of Baller as well is, like, clearly she didn't mean to do this. She was leading with her heart. The fact that she. That that's what's gonna happen, in my opinion, is what makes Kim Baller, while still kind of, like, a good soul. Like, she's still gonna go to heaven because she didn't do that intentionally. The fact that it's gonna happen is an amazing bonus because literally, Chris and.

[James Soule]

Kind of Ellie or maybe the show opens just in their future with an older Tam. And it's just a terrible situation. It's just terrible.

[Matt Koplik]

In that minute, in that two minutes of.

[James Soule]

We get a prologue, a dream ballet kind of thing.

[Matt Koplik]

Terrible.

[James Soule]

Like. Like, they just all look older than.

[Matt Koplik]

They are Tam pulls out a knife on both of them.

[James Soule]

Tam's a delinquent.

[Matt Koplik]

And John comes in and grabs Tam. He's like, I gotta get this kid.

[James Soule]

And they both gained a lot of weight because they're just unhappy, all that kind of stuff.

[Matt Koplik]

If Chris didn't look like Chris, if Chris did not look like Will Chase, Stephen Pasquale, a young Willy Fock, would anyone gift you shits? We talked. So we talked about this, actually, with the Heathers episode. Like, if JD did not look like a young Christian Slater, would anything he say sound profound? No, it would sound like a crazy person, but it's because he's young and hot. Everyone's like, oh, my God, what a bad boy. If Chris did not look like a Gap model or the very. Like a blandly handsome Broadway leading man, who would give two shits?

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I think another issue with the show is actually that there are too many characters that the writers want us to have so much investment with.

[Sam]

Yeah, Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So, like, we have to watch Chris and Ellen and their pain. We have to, you know, watch John tell everyone how they're being dumb. We have to watch the engineer be an engineer. And it takes away from what I think is the most interesting story, which is Kim's.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Every time Kim is on stage, I'm like, this is, for me, this is the show. And I think that the humanity she has, the optimism she has, would feel less sunny to some people if we did see more of the struggles she has. I think where the writers try to make it that her survivalist instincts ties into her suicide at the end is that, like, it's all pinned on Chris. Like, she keeps surviving with Tam because she knows that Chris is at the other end. She even says at one point, like.

[Sam]

You'Re on that boat.

[Matt Koplik]

We almost drowned.

[James Soule]

But I thought it basically waiting for him.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And we've. And we've been living and, you know, I think.

[James Soule]

Which I don't mind either. And the thing about the love story, I do buy it. Like, I mean, I don't.

[Matt Koplik]

I. I buy Kim's love. I don't buy Chris's.

[Sam]

Well, yes or yes.

[James Soule]

Okay, that's. That's a good distinction.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's because, James, I believe women. And when they. And when they tell me that they're in love, I believe. And you should.

[James Soule]

Now, it's the. Maybe the placement of her love on this particular person is a terrible choice in general. But. So I don't have problems with that.

[Sam]

The. The.

[James Soule]

The narrative element of that. Like, you know, Wait, now, I forgot.

[Matt Koplik]

We'Re talking about the love, her survivalist instincts, all that pinning it on Chris, I think that in Madame Butterfly, and what's interesting also is that the original short story that the op was the opera, is based off of a play that was produced by David Belasco, which was based off of the short story. In the short story, Madame Butterfly does not die.

[James Soule]

Oh, interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

She's about to attempt suicide. She gets the knife, like a little bit in.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And her maid Suzuki stops her. And then supposedly the story. I haven't read it. This to is supposed. What I've read about it.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Apparently the story ends with like, I think the general and his wife come to pick up the kid and everyone's gone.

[James Soule]

They gotcha.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know Madame Butterfly super well, but supposedly in the opera, her reasoning for killing herself is twofold. One is truly to, like, make sure that the American takes their son. And in the opera, the American is truly a dick.

[James Soule]

Right, Right. Pinkerton is an asshole.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Because he doesn't think of her as real.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

She's someone to have around until he goes back to America. And I think that's important because what he does is so unconscionable. Like, the only way it can make sense is if he truly is an asshole. And. But then you ask yourself, why would. Why would someone fall for him if he's treating her so flippantly? And so the opera's answer to this is that she's a woman. She's a young girl of, I guess, like, I think Madame Butterfly in the opera, she's like, kind of. Of means she's not from, like, low society. She's. I think she's like, you know, a sheltered, semi privileged young child. And her shelter ness and also her pride and her belief that Pinkerton loves her is what kind of keeps her going. And then when she realizes that he doesn't, it's all a sham. The shame of that. Of, like, what she basically built her entire identity off of for the last three years, combined with giving their son to him is what ultimately leads her to kill her son.

[James Soule]

Is there like a family element? Like a shame on the family element kind of thing?

[Matt Koplik]

Probably. Yeah, yeah, something like that. And like, she. But she also, like, had offers to remarry, which she didn't take. And just a lot of just, I think a lot of shame in the idea that, like, your whole life is not your whole life. Like, the last three years have been a lie. And in some respects, I do get that. I think with opera, because it has to go to the nth degree. Of course. It goes to, like, the most illogical conclusion.

[James Soule]

Right, right.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And what I appreciate is that the writers take that element of, like, it's all been a lie out of Kim's equation of killing herself. It's purely strategic with the Tam stuff.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

How successful it is.

[James Soule]

Meaning the. The love that she. That she and Chris had.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Something that she says in her final night, in her final lines, because she also sings it earlier in Act 2. This is the one that makes me cry. So sun and Moon, for me, is a song that is musically beautiful and lyrically stupid. I hate it. I think the lyrics are terrible. And we meet in the sky. I fucking hate it.

[James Soule]

And I will say that Schoenberg knows how to write a melody.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Chris has a line, how in one night have we come so far? Which I think is a great line.

[Sam]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

So the moment that always makes you cry in Saigon, and I hope I don't cry now. It's after Kim's nightmare, after the flashback to the fall of Saigon, and she wakes up in her room, and she checks to make sure that Tam is still okay. She even checks behind the curtain to be like, is Tui there? He's not there. And they start playing the sun and moon music. And she takes out her attire from.

[James Soule]

The ceremony from candles and all that stuff, right?

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

She takes out a box, and in the box is her wedding attire from that ceremony.

[Sam]

Oh, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is another thing. Like, girl, you were able to keep that a secret for three years.

[James Soule]

That's right. That's right. She was just carrying this box. She found a way everywhere she went.

[Matt Koplik]

Kim finds ways.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

But so she. And she's.

[James Soule]

She's taking.

[Matt Koplik]

She is covering up the, you know, scantily clad outfit she had in Bangkok to again to survive and make money. And putting back on the outfit she wore.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

For the ceremony the night that he left, she starts singing sun and Moon. And she sings particularly a line that he sang, which is the how in one night, how have we come so far? She still remembers the things that he said to her. He never repeats a single thing she ever said to him.

[James Soule]

Of course not. Why would he?

[Matt Koplik]

Because why would. But so it's. That alone shows like it is real to her.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

It meant something to her.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And so, first of all, it's a moment of optimism with Kim that I love because she has this nightmare of something very real that happened to her, this flashback. And also let's remember, it's not literally the ghost of Tzuyu who comes back to her.

[James Soule]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

It's her subconscious.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And first saying, like, because she kills Tui and she has all this shame.

[James Soule]

Yeah. Guilt and shame around that.

[Sam]

Of course.

[Matt Koplik]

So he's reminding her of that, but then also saying, like, you think your gi is not like other men. Where was he the night that Saigon fell? So clearly these are questions, like, Kim's not dumb. These are questions in her brain. She's thinking it herself.

[James Soule]

But she decided, she imagines, too, that he tried.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

He made attempts. He did everything he could have done.

[Matt Koplik]

Because why wouldn't he?

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Kim, when confronted with all that, says, you know, he tried and he's back now and it doesn't matter anymore because we're here. And choosing optimism, choosing hope, when you've been through as much as she has, is, in its own way an act of bravery. We say that from our comfort here in this room being like, you know, shouldn't you be a little more vengeful? Shouldn't you have more spite? And I think we all have that inside of ourselves. The fact that she could and chooses not to shows that there's a level of maturity and growth in her that we don't have. Again, Kim is always playing chess. And I mean that in both the Saltburn way and in, like, the Sound of Music way. I truly. I think there's one takeaway I want everyone to know is that throughout all of Miss Saigon, Kim is playing chess. She's the only bar girl to get a GI to, like, take her in and buy her.

[James Soule]

And there's a lot of implications to that. I mean, you know, the level of savvy and intelligence, and the girls are.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, the girl, like, girl. What about that magic vagina got you all this? She goes, he simply asked me, I said yes. So the moment that makes you cry every time because of this is we already know about Ellen. We know what Chris is already planning. We know that Chris isn't back there to be with Kim.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And Kim, in this moment of optimism, of choosing hope and light, and she sings the. You know, she's singing about how, where she's. What she's expecting to happen. I. I reach your door and our love is reborn. First of all, musically gorgeous.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Leia with the amazing mix for the.

[James Soule]

Gods and those orchestrations just, like, swelling.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because she also goes for that low note. How in one night have we come so far? And then goes up to that high note. But emotionally speaking, it's very painful for me to watch Kim, a character who I clearly like a lot and want to root for, knowing what we know, keeping aside the Madame Butterfly ending of it all, but just knowing that, like, where Chris is at, it's really. It's really fucking shitty to be so open with your heart, with your emotions, with your love for someone and then have it basically get chewed up and spat back in your face.

[Sam]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

In a way, Kim is a bit like Fosca that way. The difference is that all Fosca has ever known is rejection and pain and sickliness. So she comes with this openness with her love for Giorgio, knowing that he doesn't love her, knowing that she's repulsive and being like, but I'm going to persevere. I'm going to wear you down. And Kim is like, but why should I have to wear anyone down? He loves me.

[James Soule]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

Isn't this right?

[James Soule]

Why. Why wouldn't it just pick up where we left off? Where we left off?

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

We love each other. We're married to each other. Why wouldn't we know? Why wouldn't we wait for each other and reconnect? I knew that he was alive. He should know that I'm alive. Isn't that wonderful?

[James Soule]

And. And you know what? To that point, Tam, as the actual physical manifestation. Right. Because she sings about how, you know, was that a lie? Was it ghost? And she turns and looks and sees this, this. This. This thing that they both created.

[Sam]

And.

[James Soule]

And so how could she not think.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

How could she not choose the optimism and hope.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And the love. And I. And especially after, like, that really intense flashback that. That she. She relives it probably all the time, but in that moment specifically, and then decides to go in that direction and we know it's not gonna end. Great.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

It just.

[Matt Koplik]

It just really hits me in the balls. I can understand that like, it's my own.

[James Soule]

Also. I've never thought about that sequence being her. Her consciousness. Like, it's her interpretation of what she imagines happened that day, because she could obviously never know what John was doing, what Chris was doing. So, like, I think we're meant to.

[Matt Koplik]

Take it at face value that it's truly what happens.

[James Soule]

But it's interesting to sort of have as a prelude to that moment, Kim.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And the ghost. And so that even if it is the accurate way that it all happened, that something about her, the stamp of her perspective being on that makes it, I don't know, somehow more part of.

[Matt Koplik]

Me, if I were to Poignant. Or if I were to stage.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

If I were to stage from a Saigon, which I should, because I'm brilliant.

[James Soule]

I would see it.

[Matt Koplik]

I would. I would do that whole flashback with Kim basically, like, never moving. I would have her kind of just be there remembering it all.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

In a nightmare moment and all happening around her. This is like John Doyle esque of me, to have, like. Basically, she's doing all of it out front.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And have certain moments be sort of like, on a rewind. We're like. We're watching and you're right.

[James Soule]

And she's facing out, saying whatever she said to the characters, but she's with us.

[Matt Koplik]

And part of it is, like. And everything's happening around her, behind her. And we'll sometimes watch moments of Chris doing the shitty, selfish thing, like, over music where he's not singing, obviously, and then, like, her kind of rewinding and then when he's singing. It's what she's hoping that actually happened, that he did that she's choosing to believe happened.

[James Soule]

I think that's right. And, you know, it's set up for that already because of the nightmare she has with Tui coming back. And it is. That establishes that there's something going on in her head. And then to immediately just oppose that with the. The Fall of Saigon sequence. Yeah, it's set up for that. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

No, it's wonderful. It's a whole show has. Again, it's one of those things where, like, there are nuggets where you're like.

[Sam]

Yeah, this is good.

[Matt Koplik]

Or moments where you're like, I could maybe find a way to make this work better.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

The.

[Matt Koplik]

The flashback has gotten. Got a lot of flack from critics at the time because the perspective from the people who championed Miss Saigon when it came out. For example, Frank Rich, the New York Times critic at the moment, he said that he felt that Miss Saigon was the best of all the mega musicals when it opened. And there are people today who still believe it's the best of the four. And I think it's because it's the one that deals with the most hard issues. It's the one that deals the most in, like, gray area. I don't think it succeeds a lot of the time, though. So I don't. Like. I. My personal belief is that Les Mis is the best of the four. Maybe it doesn't deal with, like.

[James Soule]

I would agree with that too, actually.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Now it doesn't. It's not contemporary. Right. But I don't know, dramaturgically speaking, Story wise, I feel like it's the most coherent for my money.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think that it uses. And I think it uses motif the best in terms of repeat repetition.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And I would say Miss Saigon is, you know, a good, well intentioned. A well intentioned attempt at something to. To. To tackle complicated things, complicated issues, complicated events, complicated emotions, where. Whether or not it's actually successful at any of those things.

[Matt Koplik]

But I think, because at the time, you also have to remember the time that it was being developed, you know, the 80s with Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, this sort of, you know, more is more, etching is more. And you have to remember sort of West End musicals at the time, which, you know, that's where the mega musical was born. Cats, Phantom, Les Mis, Miss Saigon. But then also these other epics that never made it over here, like the musical Time, which ran for two years.

[James Soule]

What was that?

[Matt Koplik]

It was a musical about time, James.

[James Soule]

And it was just called Time. Yep, Time the Musical.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep, it was called Time the Musical. I think it ran for two years. And even in London they were like, this is garbage. But the spectacle is impressive. Starlight Express, Children of Eden in London had this big epic.

[James Soule]

It definitely feel like there was a period in the West End 80s and 90s where they were trying to figure out what exactly. What's. What's quality, what is. What is a West End musical? What should it be? What is it? You know? Well, Frank Rich, what are our standards and priorities?

[Matt Koplik]

There was in his review for Carousel when it was at the national in 92, before it came to the States, Frank Rich began his review being like, even in the era of Andrew Lloyd Webber, the Brits are still kind of mystified by musical theater. They don't really get it. And he's right. Because every time that something comes out of the West End that is a great musical or even a great revival, we then get like 10 more after we're like, what the fuck were you thinking?

[Sam]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

And we thought, we have our duds.

[James Soule]

Here too, of course.

[Matt Koplik]

But, you know, there was a time in the 80s because cats, Les Mis, Miss Saigon, Phantom were all so successful around the world, there was this belief of like, oh, we cracked the code and we. And we now, not only do we do it well, we do it better than you.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's not true. But also, I would argue Americans don't necessarily do musical theater as well as we used to.

[James Soule]

But I would agree with that.

[Matt Koplik]

Frank Rich said in his review for Ms. I Gone, he found it to be the best of the Four and found yet another moment to dig Phantom. He was like, I still don't get why people are obsessed with Phantom, but he goes, this is the most mature. It deals with the most heady stuff. His criticisms were, this shouldn't be a mega musical. He goes, this needs to be.

[James Soule]

Oh, interesting.

[Matt Koplik]

He goes, this needs to be on a much smaller scale. He goes, it's all. All the stuff that goes mega British epic. He goes, is the stuff that I think doesn't work in Best Saigon. He goes, I think the design is too large. He goes, I. I think that every now and then, they go for the grandeur of music when they shouldn't. And he found the flashback to be indulgent. And he thought the helicopter was stupid. He was like, they're doing this for the marketing ploy. It doesn't do anything. And part of me is like, yeah, you know, maybe the fall of Saigon should have happened in Act 1, so we just keep the narrative going. But also, as we were saying earlier, part of me does kind of like the mystery of flashing forward three years ago. But wait, how did we get here?

[James Soule]

I thought it was effective.

[Matt Koplik]

It is effective. And I think.

[James Soule]

And I think it can be all things meaning. Yes. I think the choice. It's not a subtle choice to fly a helicopter on stage. So, of course, like, it's going to be part of the poster design. Of course it's going to be a part of the marketing. It's, of course it's going to be a part of the lore of the show. But it can also be historically correct and dramaturgically sound. Yeah, it can be, you know, another example of, like, multiple things can exist at the same time.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think it's. It does have this spectacle special effects moment that's very impressive. But it's a harsh special effect.

[James Soule]

Yes. And I think it gets a bad rap because of the. Because, like, the chandelier and Phantom, the tire and cats, you know, you could argue about, like, I guess the chandelier is. Works in a way. I. I don't know. But. But the helicopter makes sense. Like, it makes sense within the story. It was. They had to evacuate American personnel in. In 48 hours.

[Matt Koplik]

The chandelier ultimately is a check that doesn't fully cash out. Because. So it's.

[James Soule]

So.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Not.

[James Soule]

Not in the same way that the helicopter is part of. Because.

[Matt Koplik]

Because they promise this whole shit with the chandelier at the beginning of Phantom.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I think the prologue and the overture of Phantom is some of the most effective in the last 40 years. And they write this creepy check for it that they don't end up cashing out, because then Act 1 ends, and that thing comes down a mile an hour, and then just goes right back up in Act 2. They go, we bought a new chandelier. Everything's hunky dory. And I'm like, okay.

[James Soule]

And we haven't heard from him, and somehow we know that this skeletal costume person comes out, and we know exactly who he is.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Fan was like, God damn it. My, my. I was gonna crash the chandelier and everything was gonna go terribly. That didn't work. Let me go write an opera instead that nobody likes.

[James Soule]

They should have had a different chandelier, a bigger chandelier in the second act.

[Matt Koplik]

And with. With. And in the crystals, when you peek really hard, you can see the lettering. Lol. Phantom. Nice try, Dick. Now, James, we've got another thing we got to cover.

[James Soule]

Oh, yeah? What do we. What's left?

[Matt Koplik]

Girls. So much.

[James Soule]

Oh, you're right.

[Matt Koplik]

We haven't talked about Jonathan Price. And before we do that, we gotta take one more break.

[Sam]

Yay, Billy.

[James Soule]

I'd take the zipper with you. How do you mean?

[Sam]

You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top.

[James Soule]

You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet.

[Matt Koplik]

Of Fred and me Back. So his name has been brought up. Jonathan Price. He was the original engineer in Miss Saigon in the. In London and then on Broadway. Another reason why the show was deemed problematic for a while. Right now I also want to talk about the sexuality of the show, because that's something that a lot of people brought up to me as well, the sexualization of the female characters. My basic argument is, like, I think the show is not sexy and intentionally so. So the sexually sexualization of those characters is meant to show, like, look how disgusting this is.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

But also, you know, girls in bikinis.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

But I don't think we're seeing. Seeing sort of suggestions of. Of physical violence and abuse.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. It's showing something that did truly happen and still happens to this day. I don't think the show is saying, like, isn't this sexy? The show is saying, like, isn't this gross?

[James Soule]

You talked about this in your Carousel episode, too, you know, with Julie, the relationship between Julie and Billy.

[Sam]

Right.

[James Soule]

Like, just because something exists in a thing doesn't mean that it's celebrating or that it's advocating for it. Yeah, I think that's.

[Sam]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

We've regressed In a lot of ways, both as audiences and as writers, because we're sort of like in this pre. In this Hays Code era again, where it's like, no, we need a show to tell us outright that this is wrong or something. And then on top of that, writers are. Are creating these songs that are, like, hanging their kitty posters with a pop beat to it being like. Just so you know, we don't condone this.

[James Soule]

And it's. There's like program notes or something.

[Sam]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like every time at Roundabout, you go now, and they're like, we acknowledge that this theater is built on Native American land. And I'm like, cool, but you're still pocketing all the money. Roundabout land.

[James Soule]

Acknowledgments Anyhow, but.

[Matt Koplik]

So Jonathan Pryce, as far as I know, I don't know how exactly it was that he was picked to play the Engineer, but he was always picked by.

[James Soule]

Yeah, they never auditioned anyone. He was it.

[Matt Koplik]

He was it from the beginning.

[James Soule]

There's a. An interview with Cameron Mackintosh. He had seen him in something, and Jonathan Pryce had rung him up one day, I guess, when you could do stuff like that and said, I want to play the Phantom. And so Cameron sort of clocked that. And then when this came around, he was like, oh, we should throw his name into the mix. And then they. He didn't ever audition. He was always the Engineer.

[Matt Koplik]

That's hilarious to me that Jonathan Pryce wanted to play the Phantom. I know he could never have sung that. Yeah, he would have acted the shit out of it, though. But Price was, by that point, he was an established actor.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And in London, he was particularly famous. He was sort of known in the States.

[James Soule]

He had won a couple of Broadway shows.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

He had won a Tony for a play called Comedians that launched.

[James Soule]

Oh, I didn't know he had a Tony Award by this point.

[Matt Koplik]

He had a Tony Award by that point. That's part of the reason why they were able to kind of get away with the, like, star casting, Equity ruling, but also why Equity sort of challenged it. He also played the lead in the Terry Gilliam movie Brazil.

[James Soule]

Gotcha.

[Matt Koplik]

So he was like, you know, he wasn't some rando. He was. He was known. Far more known in the uk, but he was known.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And the. The Engineer is written to be a Eurasian character, mixed race. Yes, he was. His mother.

[James Soule]

Right. French and Vietnamese. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

His mother was Vietnamese, his father was French. His father was a tattoo artist in Haiphong.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And when the French sort of Deployed, he was left. So he. He has always felt like he was of two different worlds. He wanted to be part of Western culture and was never allowed to be and always felt sort of better than everyone because of that, even though he was never treated as such. Now, and we learned a lot about his. We learned all of this, like, within one verse before American Dream happens. So we're going to try to cover all of it in one fell swoop. Both why he gets the 11 o' clock number and Jonathan Pryce and all this now because he is Eurasian, because he was mixed race.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

That is something that Cameron McIntosh thought would work for Jonathan Pryce. Oh, he doesn't have to be fully Asian. He can be white. And we can, we can. We can do some yellow face. To.

[James Soule]

Which they did in London.

[Matt Koplik]

They did do. Yeah, they did for a minute. And you can see it a little bit in the documentary. I don't know how much got changed by the time they filmed American Dream in the documentary, because at that point it looks mostly just like his hair is black. But you do see in his dressing room at one point, like, they do some, like, heavy eyelid.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Apparently there's some pictures of him floating around the Internet of. Yeah, like something.

[Matt Koplik]

Something.

[James Soule]

They use eyeliner.

[Matt Koplik]

There was a time in. In the West End where like a lot of promo photos and stuff, like, happened during tech and then early previews before, like, major changes were made. So, like there are some photos of some costumes and wigs in Phantom before, like, they fully change shit for Carlisle and Christine.

[Sam]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Because, you know, they made.

[James Soule]

I mean, that makes sense.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Because you're trying to get early buzz about something and so you're gonna take pictures early on in a process.

[Matt Koplik]

But like Les Mis and Miss Saigon made major changes in previews or at least major changes for a mega musical where you couldn't, you know, a lot of stuff was already set. But so I know that, like they gave him fake teeth. They yelled his skin a bit. And I think they. They walked back on that during preview. So by the time the show opened, he had the jet black hair and basically the eyelids, but he didn't have the skin or the teeth anymore.

[James Soule]

I will say this about all of that, that this, this casting controversy. I don't. There's no. There's zero justification. Like it should have. It should have been stopped in his tracks from the very beginning, you know, even before the show tried to come to New York. And then Cameron McIntosh probably should never.

[Matt Koplik]

Have played the role to begin.

[James Soule]

Yeah, 100% 100%. Because if you have to do all those things, then there's something wrong. Yeah, right. Because, you know, just because it's a certain time period, there's no excuse or justifications. Right. You know, you just, you just think ahead. Just know better have common sense, whatever it is. Because, you know, I, I often apply the substitution method here. So. Okay, great. You're gonna do a play that features an African American lead. Jonathan Price should do that. Great. Same thing. Exact same thing. We should not do that ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. So, you know, I get it. He's a star, a talented actor, all those things. I would, I would even say a transformative actor because he's so good and so much. He was great in the GI Joe movie. But it, that doesn't, that doesn't. That none of that justifies or excuses and, and, you know, I did a little. I went down a rabbit hole recently, you know, because of the. Being invited on this podcast of the statements that were made publicly. You know, the thing about when Cameron McIntosh, you know, canceled the show, coming to New York, and the things that he was saying about how, you know, the things that Actors Equity is advocating for, the exact same problems that, you know, you're being racist against white people is basically what, what the statements were. And it's like, how embarrassing. Yeah. How embarrassing for you because you're, you're an educated person. You're. You know, and not to say that artists or creatives have to have the ability to, I don't know, predict the future, but I do think that some measure of foresight, and as I mentioned earlier, common sense has to come into the picture. I really think a lot of the statements come off as just power grabs. He's just showing how powerful he can be to control a union, an American union, and say, well, I'm just not going to bring it to New York.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And then, you know, of course the union relents because it's like, well, do we want 30 Asian American actors to have jobs? Yes. Is that better than, you know, this current situation of not having a show? Of course. So, you know, but again, going back to my point, it's all a little bit embarrassing. It's like all the creatives, all the public statements that were made, the interview with Jonathan Price, the stuff that he said publicly about it all, it is embarrassing. Like, you're, you're. We're being racist against a majority group.

[Matt Koplik]

And people who should know better and, and were so ahead of the curve in other respects, like Frank Rich had a Whole article. Having seen the show in London, and.

[James Soule]

I adore Frank Rich. I read his autobiography. I have that collection of. Of reviews. Listen, the hot seat. So he's clearly very smart. Yeah. And I know that he loves theater. This is what I love about your reviews. Like, I know that you. I can see and read and feel palpably how much you love this art form. And even he, Frank Rich, you know, around the time of the revival was saying things, was emphasizing how great Jonathan Price was. A director should have the ability to cast whomever he or she wants to cast.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so when the show was coming to New York and, you know, Equity first said no and, and. And all this stuff, Frank Rich did write an op ed about it, basically saying, like, this is an embarrassing decision on Equity's part.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Saying ultimately saying, first of all, Price is magnificent in the role. He helps the show immensely. And I want to put a pin on that because I have to talk about that as I went to the library to watch the original company for this, and, you know, then says, you know, the argument that you said, like, we're being racist to white people. And I think he even says, like, it's either he or Cameron Macintosh that says, like, should a white man not play Othello? And. Yeah, exactly. Now, this is not me justifying so much as me saying, like, think of where culture was at this point. A lot of people involved with Miss Saigon came from the opera world, where at that point, people were still having. White women were playing Madame Butterfly, white men were playing Othello. And especially in a lot, though.

[James Soule]

So the director, I guess, designers too, maybe.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, okay, maybe not a lot, but, like, half of the team. And then, sure, Macintosh, but also, like, London as well, was very different in regards to racial casting, of course. And Heightener would very much course correct this with Carousel famously, you know, going the opposite end of, like, let's be super inclusive and let talent prevail. But I also know that, you know, for the Price of it all, hint. And Battle was a black actor they cast in what had been a white role.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And then made that the template. Now, two things are very true. I watched Price at the library, and I have to say his performance is fantastic. He should never have played the role, though.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And Heidner has now changed his tune. He has said as much in his book or other. He claims he always was a little. Not feeling good about it from the beginning. Sure. But he basically kept his mouth shut because he's like, this thing was bigger than me. I was Basically a high hired hand.

[James Soule]

And I believe Macintosh said something relatively recently about like, oh, it should never have been a thing either, or, you know, or something. He said it was a weak apology.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't think Macintosh will ever say I was wrong. I look back and I'm embarrassed. I've learned now, like, times have changed.

[James Soule]

And I don't think billionaires are, you know. No, I don't think they're. I don't think they're known to apologize and admit wrongdoing.

[Matt Koplik]

This is where Macintosh, you know, fully lied at the time, saying in his argument to Equity that it needs to be Jonathan Price. A he start casting and Equity is like, he's sort of famous. And then him basically implying that they looked for actors of Asian descent to do it instead and couldn't find anyone comparable to Price.

[James Soule]

Oh, I don't think I ever read this.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, that was that. He never. He was very sleazy this way, if I'm being honest, because these are things in that are not on the record. Like, he didn't make a public statement so much as, like, you have to go to Equity to make your case.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And it is stated by Equity or implied by Equity that Macintosh implied that they looked and they couldn't. It has to be priced. And I also understand when you're putting together a big show that the whole world's got its eyes on, you want the best products going forward.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

So when it's introduced to the world, it's the people who can really sell it and commodity.

[James Soule]

Yes. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

To which I say, then explain Willie Falk. But no, that's. That's me being an actual. I don't. I don't mean that. Will Willy sings the absolute out of that score, at least at the video that I watched. But Frank Rich did say in his review, he was like, the casting of Chris, like, he's so bland. Have Henton Battle play Chris, please. Which is which? It's. Again, it's so funny that, like, he goes on about, like, the ridiculousness against Jonathan Pryce. And then in his review, he was like, why must Hidden Battle play John? Have him play Chris, you assholes. He's better than the guy you have playing Chris.

[James Soule]

Right, Right.

[Matt Koplik]

But we digress. In order for Chris to truly be a villain, he's got to be a pretty white man. Because we need to all look at. We need. As an audience, we need to collectively look at Chris and go, you. You suck.

[Sam]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

And we all. And we. An audience can only really collectively, right.

[James Soule]

Off the bat, too and so, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Being like, oh, poor baby. Are you having. Are you having the Monday blues? The Friday saddies? Yeah. Well, look at these. Look at these sex workers who are clawing their way to make money while you live a comfy life in a hotel room at the embassy.

[Sam]

Fuck.

[Matt Koplik]

Why? He's also not even fighting. Like, Americans had stopped fighting at that point. He was literally just, soldier, soldier. He's almost. Yeah. When people go. Think of all the trauma he had from fighting. No, he wasn't on the battle lines. We. America had fully pulled out of the fight of the Vietnam War.

[James Soule]

That's right. And they were. They were. They had sort of dumped all the responsibility back onto the South Vietnamese and they were just kind of there.

[Matt Koplik]

They were there to kind of supervise.

[James Soule]

And, like, because the evacuation process was prolonged.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Like, it wasn't just the two days that the fall of Saigon takes place. It was a very protracted. Which, you know, which just goes to show, Americans are terrible.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And the fall of Saigon wasn't even like, oh, it fell because Americans left. It fell because the President of Vietnam, he resigned.

[James Soule]

Oh, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Thinking that that would create peace between north and South Vietnam. And then. And his. And his successor basically lasted all of two weeks.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Right, right, right, right, right.

[Matt Koplik]

And then the Viet Cong came in and they went, nope. Bye. In America. And when that happened, they'd all been.

[James Soule]

Already been making efforts to. To take over parts of.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And when it became clear that they were just going to fully succeed, America was like, bye.

[James Soule]

Yeah, peace out.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So, like, it's not even. Like, Chris has been fighting on the. On the battle lines and, like, is feeling blue. He's just feeling blue. He's like, you know, man, fucking horrors. Doesn't have the thrill it used to have. I don't know. I don't know why, man.

[James Soule]

It feels like something about it.

[Matt Koplik]

He's going. He's going through Buffy Summers is plight during. What's more, with feeling. He is like going through the motions fucking every.

[James Soule]

Wait, what were we. What were we talking about before this?

[Matt Koplik]

Who cares? Before we got Jonathan Price.

[James Soule]

Jonathan Price, Yes. Wait, but what. What specific point about Jonathan Price were we.

[Matt Koplik]

I was talking. What I was saying was that he is magnificent.

[James Soule]

Oh.

[Sam]

Oh, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

But so.

[James Soule]

And he's. Sorry, just to. Just the clips that I've seen of him. He does bring something very special to the role.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

His. The skill that he has as an actor.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so I'll say what I find in his. So magnetic as we also talk about the revival, because the revival was something that felt like it was trying to retcon Miss Saigon and for me failed worse than the original version in a lot of ways. The only thing for me about the revival that worked was Eva.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And I want to say this now. One of the questions I got from someone was, did Eva Noblezada deserve the Tony Award in 2017 against Bette Midler, Patti Luponen, Christine Ebersole. And who was the fifth? It was Patty and Christine for War Paint.

[James Soule]

Bet for Hela Dolly.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Eva for Miss Saigon. And then, oh, Danae Benton for Great Comic Con. And so I'll just say this as we go back to Jonathan Price. My answer is, yes, she did. But. So back to Price.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

And I do want to know. Exactly. Not exactly, but some of the things you didn't like about the revival. So we'll come back to that. But back to Price. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So when Equity reversed their decision, Macintosh came out. He's like, oh, we never looked. We never looked for Price. I don't know. I don't know what. He goes, I don't know what you thought I said, but we never looked. He goes, no, we looked for a Kim, and we think it's got to be Leia. And then Equity tried to, like. Then Equity tried to put their foot down about Leia for a minute, and they were like, well, she's not a star. And then Macintosh was like, no, but we've looked. He goes, we literally spent a year looking for her in London. He goes, we're not going to waste our time and look for another year. Nothing's changed in two years. It's her.

[James Soule]

So he lied to Equity about having done a casting search because, yeah, I read in this New York Times, and maybe again, it's an excerpt of interviews that he must have given a long time ago. But, yeah, he said it was always. It was always Jonathan.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, and so. And that is something that Heitner says in his book. He was like, we always assumed that Jonathan and Leia would go to New York. And Cameron was also kind of, like, shady about Leia for a minute. He's like, we don't know about Leia, but it's got to be Jonathan. And I think he said that to emphasize how much he wanted Jonathan to come over and probably saw that there was going to be a lot more trouble with Jonathan than with Leia. It worked out in the sense that both gave stunning performances that won them Tonys.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Jonathan, to his credit, he wins. He says some very lovely words. He doesn't acknowledge the controversy at all. And I think the whole. And if you watch that Tony words when he and Leo win, the room is so excited for their wins. I think sort of like, you know what your. Your names were, like, thrown in the mud for a year.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, and you.

[James Soule]

And you have to go back and.

[Matt Koplik]

Watch, and you persevered. It's back in the time when Tonys were still at Broadway theaters. And so it's pretty much just the community in the room.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So when people win, you really do get a sense of, like, how the community feels.

[James Soule]

Is there any. Because, you know, the 90s on Broadway, sad time, relatively speaking, did the show. But I guess Les Mis was already there. Phantom was already there too. So it didn't necessarily inject, you know, a huge amount. Like, it was, you know, we knew it was gonna be a juggernaut. So, like. Well, so that's a lot of money coming into Broadway season.

[Matt Koplik]

That's the thing is, as we move away from Jonathan.

[James Soule]

That's a factor too.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

As we move away from Jonathan, as. I also want to talk about the revival, and I will connect Jonathan to that as well. I mean, Ms. Seagon came in with the largest advance in Broadway history at that point, I think something like 36 million. It pretty much was sold out for a whole year at that point. And Jonathan, Leia and Hinton were, you know, they won, but the show did not. And there was this.

[James Soule]

What won that year?

[Matt Koplik]

Will Rogers Follies. And again, you look, if you watch the ceremony, you can get a sense of how people are feeling about everything. Because the room isn't vibrating for Miss Saigon. They're vibrating for those two actors.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And Leia, Queen that she is, the first thing she thinks when she wins is Actors Equity.

[James Soule]

I love it.

[Matt Koplik]

Queen. And I always remember Jonathan Price being the one to thank Actors Equity. So when I watched his speech, I was like, oh, where's that? Thank you. And then Leia's happens, and I'm like, oh, there it is. Icon. But Will Rogers Follies wins the Tony that night. And there's a lot of celebration from the audience that an American show wins against the mega musical. Because even though Miss Saigon was this big juggernaut that was clearly gonna run for, like, at least five years.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And employ a lot of people and bring a lot of dough to Broadway. Everyone's like, but, but, but, but. And, like, the reviews were kind of split. You had Frank Rich, who thought it was great. And then a lot of views were like, it's not worth it. Like, it's messy, it's dumb, it's whatever, Right? And so the room was like, do we give it to Miss Saigon because it brought in all this money? It's sort of the argument people are sort of having with Barbie right now with the Oscars of, like, is Barbie weirdly gonna win Best Picture because it made the most money?

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Which it's not going to, because if that's true, then Avatar 1 and 2 would have won.

[James Soule]

That's. And that's not an uncommon problem from season to season, Right. It's like, do we give the Tony to the thing that could really use it and it would boost sales, or do we give it to the thing that has clearly been the winner, all financial winner, all season long?

[Matt Koplik]

And the thing is that if you really. There was a time when the Tony did go to what was, like, the biggest musical of the year in the same way, like, Best Picture used to kind of go to what was, like, one of the biggest movies of the year.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And something changed in the 90s after Miss Saigon, where it became more like, we gotta give it to more, like, home turf stuff. And if something's gonna be. If we're gonna give it to, like, the big titty tit, we gotta give it to the big titty tit. That also, like, kind of has a cultural impact, at least for Broadway. So, like, crazy for you. Frank Rich said, like, this is the moment when. When Broadway took back the musical from the British. And so Broadway was like, fantastic, let's do it. And something like the Producers or Book of Mormon or Hamilton, these shows that get, like, critical praise while also being immense, you know, ticket sales. Then I want to say it was. It was probably like Gentleman's Guide where the Tonys went. Maybe we give it to the show that kind of needs it, the show that we like.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because, oh, anyone can give it to Beautiful. Anyone can give it to Aladdin.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

But Gentleman's Guide is actually good. And if we give it to it, it could run another year. Right. And then it goes back and forth, because for every Gentleman's Guide and Fun Home, you then give it to a Hamilton or Dear Evan Hansen. But those shows also still had the critical raves behind and the.

[James Soule]

The homegrown thing. Yeah, right.

[Sam]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think actually we're. I think there's still a bit of an edge against that. The British musical. We'll give it to a British revival and we'll act, and we'll always give it to a British Play. But we'll. In terms of British musicals, when Billy Elliot won that kind of dug Matilda's grave for Best Musical, because people were really resentful of Billy Elliot winning when people thought that next Normal should have.

[James Soule]

Right, right. That makes a lot of sense to me.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Well, because of stuff we've talked about earlier, you know, the sort of pompousness that we can do American musicals better than you can. Right. It's an. It's an American art form.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

That makes perfect sense to me.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's. It's why. And I'll talk about it in the future episode as we talk about the Tonys again. It's interesting to me of what's going to happen with revival this year, because Merrily right now is swinging its big old dick around like, we've got this shit in the back. We've just announced we're going till July. So, like, you know, it's us now. It's us against the world. And what they have in their favor is like, yes, it's a British import, but all the cast is American. They have really sold that. It's the three lead. Oh, sorry, Daniel's not American. Take that back. Yeah, but that. It's the three leads that make it successful. It's Sondheim and he's American.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And, like, the only other real competition they have is the Cabaret revival, which is also a British Empire import.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is why part of me sort of wants, like, Tommy to be so amazing and then win. To be like you, Merily, for thinking you just had it.

[James Soule]

It could be. And there's a lot of potential.

[Matt Koplik]

Who knows? Who knows? But there is that sort of that cavalier pompousness that I do also think. Bit Miss aigon in the ass of. Of Macintosh being like, I don't care. I have so much money and. And other. Everywhere else in the world can get this show but Broadway, if you're not going to do it the way I want.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And maybe that. I mean, maybe that is a factor, you know, because again, you look at the statements that were made at the time of all the controversy, and he is. He's. He's. He's a power play and. And he wants to show that, you know, I don't know if he was a billionaire by that point, but he certainly had a lot of money and a certain amount of power, and he wants to show that he can. He can control a lot of things.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Including, again, as I mentioned earlier, including an American labor union.

[Matt Koplik]

And I don't think he's won a Tony since then.

[James Soule]

Oh, really?

[Matt Koplik]

Since. Since Phantom, anyway. Yeah. I mean, I don't count Carousel, which he was a co producer on, because really, that was a national Lincoln center thing. He just gave money to Carousel.

[James Soule]

He didn't.

[Matt Koplik]

He had. No.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They. He did not go up there to accept the Tony for that.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But I definitely know Mary Poppins nominated. Didn't win. Didn't win. But I mean, I. And none of the revivals of his shows have won.

[James Soule]

Miss Saigon didn't win.

[Matt Koplik]

Cats wasn't even nominated.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But, yeah, I think Leia, Jonathan, and Hinton winning were a way for the community to be like, we've given Miss I got their Tonys.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Like, we. We acknowledge its presence.

[Matt Koplik]

And Leia has said in interviews that, like, the feeling at the theater was that they weren't gonna win. They all felt that there had been too much blood in the water.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

For them to win.

[James Soule]

Yeah. Or.

[Matt Koplik]

And like. And. And I think they had even won a precursor or two at that point, and they were like, it's not gonna be us, and in truth, we don't need it. But also, you know, we know how the community is feeling. So when she. When she won, she was genuinely surprised because she didn't think it was a far gone conclusion. Whereas I'm looking and I'm like, you've got Kathy Rigby for Peter Pan.

[James Soule]

Who were the other nominees?

[Matt Koplik]

Kathy Rigby for Peter Pan, June Angela for Shogun the Musical, and Dee Hody for Will Rogers Follies. I wonder if has there been another year where two Asian women were nominated for Best actress in a musical? That might be the only year.

[James Soule]

Probably not.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's with four. Only four.

[Sam]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's an interesting year because you have Secret Garden as well, where Daisy Egan wins featured actress.

[James Soule]

Oh, that was the Daisy Again year.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Secret Garden wins book. And. And it's sort of every category where Miss Saigon starts to lose. The room is super excited because it becomes clear that, like, Miss Saigon may not just sweep or win.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Which, again, like, so when Leia and Jonathan didn't win, people are still pumped for them.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You know what's fascinating to me, two things are fascinating. Then I want sort of come back to the material. It's David Henry Huang, which somebody had asked me about his rewrites, and I was like, you have this incorrect. He didn't do rewrites for Miss Saigon, but he was at the forefront for the backlash when the show was coming to Broadway. Definitely to the Point that he wrote a play about it.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

That really.

[James Soule]

She's wrote two plays about it, but the one that was a not. Didn't do very well.

[Matt Koplik]

No, the first one closed in previews. What was it called? I think Face Value.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which was in previews and closed after two or three previews. Gene Griekowski was in it. And then he.

[James Soule]

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then there's a character in Yellowface College. He just, like, fully is, like, here. All the people.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

The verisimilitude of yellowface. Because, like, BD Wong is in it as a character. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Sam]

Well.

[Matt Koplik]

And so this is what I'm getting at. The year that Phantom of the Opera won the Tony for Best Musical Miss, like, they were in the middle of casting Miss Saigon for London. I don't think they'd gone to the Philippines yet, because they. Miss Saigon opened, I think, like, September of 89. August or September. September of 89. And I think Leia got cast around, like, November of 88. But they had been auditioning that whole year.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And the show had been in development since 86.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

So this was already something Cameron was working on.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And he's in the room for Phantom of the Opera. Miss Saigon is like, fully the thing he's working on right now. And M. Butterfly wins best Play. And this is a year where they do excerpts from the play.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

So BD Wong is on stage with John Lithgow.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Tearing the opera Madame Butterfly to shreds.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Talking about the ridiculousness of it and how if it was a white woman who turns down marriage from a young Kennedy to go off with the Japanese fans.

[James Soule]

I've seen that clip.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Everyone would call her deranged.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And you got to wonder, did Karen Mackintosh sit there and think to himself at all about Miss Saigon, or was he like. Or he's like, what a lark.

[James Soule]

Yeah, that's. That's. That's an interesting. That's an interesting question to pose. I think that.

[Sam]

That.

[James Soule]

That idea of creating a message show. Right. Or a show that is the nucleus is some sort of activist message. Right. Always runs into problems because, you know, how far can you take it? You know, is it all. Is it all expository? You know? Yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me.

[Matt Koplik]

I think any show that's ever tried to be like, here's the message. This the show that fails. And I think that's where actually Miss Saigon falls back into play. Because Miss Saigon is a show where you don't get a lot of Asian joy on stage. It's mostly Asian suffering.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which, I mean, to be fair, I don't think anyone in Miss Saigon as a character has much of a good time. I think the Engineer comes closest.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which brings us back to American Dream, where people are like, why does this secondary character get the 11 o' clock number? First of all, every major production of Miss Saigon before Tam the Engineer gets the last bow, which is so fascinating to me.

[James Soule]

Oh, except in Manila.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, in Manila, it was.

[James Soule]

Well, because, yeah, she's like, it was Barbara Streisand in the Philippines. Yeah, she sure is.

[Matt Koplik]

But every other production, and maybe. I think when the show closed on Broadway with Leia, she got the last bow. But you watch. You watch the original Broadway production at the library, it's Jonathan. When the revival came to Broadway, it was John John.

[James Soule]

And you're right, I do remember that because he's the one that gets the kid to come out. So he's the last. Second to last.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's so fascinating to me because it truly is Kim's story. But I think the Engineer, if Kim is the character that the audience roots for, the Engineer is the character that the audience tends to gravitate towards. And I think it's for a few reasons. There's a lot of ties to him, to characters like the MC and Cabaret.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So it's an opportunity for a very charismatic actor to get kind of nasty.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so when the actor is good, we're enticed by this character, even when we're sort of slightly repulsed by him.

[James Soule]

Right. He.

[Matt Koplik]

He is our only comedic break at all in the show in that way that people enjoy. Thenardier. And he's also the only one outside of maybe John who kind of sees the world for what it is, is.

[James Soule]

And sure.

[Matt Koplik]

So whereas John is like, the world is cruel, the world is wicked. And, you know, he's like, but I'm gonna. You know, you gotta kind of tough it up. The Engineer is like, yeah, the world sucks, and I'm so into it.

[James Soule]

Right, right. It sucks, but there's a lot of you gold to be mine.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. If you know how to be ruthless and smart, you can still come out on top.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He's like, I'm not gonna make it any better, but I can still win.

[James Soule]

And yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And he. And he even sees, like, through the veneer of. Of capitalism and all that, but it's the only way you can win.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's why American Dream is. Is such a sleazy number.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

And. And you're right. And. And for this particular show with these particular characters. That's right.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I think the reason why American Dream happens in between the hotel scene and Kim playing chess is. Which is how I'm going to refer to Kim's suicide from now on forever. It's always just that final scene.

[James Soule]

Kim's final chess move.

[Sam]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

Kim's checkmate. Bitch. By having American Dream in the middle. It's weirdly a way for the show because Kim wants Tam to have this better life. And audiences are like, well, who's to say that Tam's going to have a better life in America? And it's the show's way of being like, we're aware. We're aware that, like, this is what Kim.

[James Soule]

The American Dream number is.

[Matt Koplik]

The writer is saying, like, just because Kim thinks that America is going to be better and is willing to make the sacrifice doesn't mean that we think that America is better than any other country in the world. Where we are showing Kim's trajectory and then we're showing, like, what, you know, are not necessarily what we're thinking, but, like, just adding in this flavor to let you know that, like, we are not personally saying America, like, America's perfect.

[James Soule]

Exact dream that everyone should strive for, to live in.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think that the engineer also is a character where. Yes. He doesn't necessarily do much for the plot. Like, he. Other than giving Kim that hotel number, an Act 2, there's not much he actively does that propels the plot forward.

[James Soule]

Getting the Bangkok tickets and stuff, as if it's like a cruise. I don't know. Whatever he does to get. I think he's part of that. He.

[Matt Koplik]

He orchestrates them.

[James Soule]

I keep hitting the mic. I'm so sorry.

[Matt Koplik]

He orchestrates them going to Bangkok.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But Kim is the one who's like, we gotta get out of here.

[James Soule]

Do you know the writer, Deep Tran? Do you know of her?

[Matt Koplik]

Of.

[James Soule]

Okay. She wrote this piece around the time of the revival. And I feel like I would be remiss if I didn't bring up some of the things that she brought up. It's this great piece because she's Vietnamese American. And the thesis of the article is that the show is ostensibly about her people that look like her, people with a similar cultural background. But she does not see herself in that show. And. And this connects to the point I made earlier about how. Okay, great, Miss Saigon exists, has these tropes, these kinds of characters. Now, let's see a bunch of Other things that actually live in a similar context. Right. In terms of the history. And so she talks a lot about how, like, she brings up her mother, for instance, and how the love story between her mother and father so different from, like, a story like Miss Saigon. She brings up how there were Ho Chi Minh T shirts sold in the lobby of the Broadway theater at the revival and how just sort of repulsive that is for a lot of reasons. And. And. And one of her big points, too, is how disposable both Vietnam and Vietnamese characters feel in the story of Miss Saigon. It's not a place that's worth fighting for. It's a place that you leave, that you do whatever you can to get out of and to get away from. And I just think these are interesting. Not. I don't want to use that word because that's such a bullshit word. I think it's useful now to look at the piece Miss Saigon specifically within the context of viewpoints like this. Is context correct? From. From the viewpoint or vantage point of. Of pieces like. Of Op Ed pieces like this. Because, you know, it's. We've never had Vietnamese American writers ex. Expressing their personal, specific opinions about this piece that has existed so loudly. I wouldn't say in American culture at large, but certainly Broadway culture. Right. And so I just. I. Like I said, I think it would be remiss to not to not bring up those. I think that. Very valid viewpoints. And again, the whole reason that I'm even talking about is because I think it connects to what I was saying earlier about, great, now we're at a time where this thing that was part of this specific moment of Broadway history, specific moment of how musicals were at a given time. What else is there that has yet to be explored and to be touched on? And it gives me a lot of hope that, like, for instance, Viet gone. Every regional theater was doing it, you.

[Sam]

Know.

[James Soule]

Three or four seasons ago. And it's a piece that. It certainly doesn't directly have any parallels to Miss Saigon, but it offers us a lot of. What's the word? Not twists, but, like, tropes that might seem familiar.

[Matt Koplik]

Sort of turned it on its head.

[James Soule]

Yeah, and turns on his head gives us another angle to examine that particular idea or that particular kind of character.

[Sam]

I feel that. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I think, again, the problem outside of Missigon is just the lack of stories between, you know, King and I and that. And between that and now.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I talked about this with King and I, you know, in terms of trying to create. You're trying to use your power for good. You can't do better than Oscar Hammerstein in the 40s and 50s.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

As a powerful, creative white man.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

He did his damnedest.

[James Soule]

Yeah, I know exactly where you're going with this.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And when he. And when he died, he was like, surely the rest of Broadway will do it. Because I was so successful at it. And then the rest of Broadway was like, oh, no, we've got King and I. We're good. Yeah, we don't need anymore.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And because I listened to that episode too, and that's.

[Matt Koplik]

You're welcome.

[James Soule]

That's a. You're. Thank you. Yeah, and that's a very good point too. Like, there was no mantle being taken up. There was no, you know, baton being passed off to someone else to widen, to expand on the kinds of stories, the kinds of narratives, the kinds of characters.

[Matt Koplik]

Broadway failed the Asian community with King and I, Broadway failed the Hispanic community with west side Story, Broadway failed the queer community. When we didn't transfer Boys in the Band to Broadway and, and create more like there.

[James Soule]

It's. It.

[Matt Koplik]

It's time. What's the line in Carolina? Change Time. Change comes fast and change comes slow. So it's like for every breakthrough, you expect like, these trickle effects. Yes.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And it doesn't always happen that way, you know, because especially with Broadway and Hollywood too, like, they need sort of a handful of successes about one particular thing before they're like, oh, clearly we'll keep doing this now.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, they talked about this with, you know, sorry to bring it back to Barbie. But, you know, there's always a narrative of like, oh, we can't make women's films because women don't go to the movies. They don't. They won't pay. No one will see a women's picture.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And it takes many, many movies about women to gross like $200 million. Like, it takes a First Wise Club and then a Devil's Devil Rose, Prada and then a Barbie for them to be like, oh, I guess now we, we can say it.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's like it's always existed. It's always been there. You just have to fucking step up to the plate.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

The opposite end of that argument where it's stupid is Ryan Murphy's miniseries Hollywood. We're like, well, if we just had a black woman in a movie in 1945, Racism in America would have been solved. And if we just had Rock Hudson come out in 1952, homophobia would have been solved. I think with Miss Saigon, though, you know, I think we're a little more forgiving of King and I than Miss Saigon. And I only said say this because there's less vitriol towards King and I. And I think it's. For me, it's that King and I is objectively just a better constructed show for every flaw that it has. It is just a better musical.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And does actually have moments of joy and intelligence. I know I said this already in King and I. I know you already heard it, but I think what people forget with King and I is how smart Oscar Hammerstein makes the King for, like, as.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

As, you know, totally childlike and. And selfish and stubborn as he can be. I said to not only speak another language, but be able to have wit in someone else's language shows immense intelligence.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And that is something that the show is very big on. But Miss Saigon, I mean, the language barriers out the window. Everyone just speaks English all the time.

[Sam]

Yeah, right.

[Matt Koplik]

With a little bit. With a little bit of French from the engineer.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Where I think Miss Saigon, if Miss Saigon was more successful, I think that there would be less vitriol, but it's not that successful. And for every moment that does work, there are two that don't. And whether it's an idea that just could never fully function, whether it's that Cameron McIntosh was always the wrong director to do it, whether it's that, you know, Claude Michel Schomburg and Alan Mobile, for all of their good intentions and talent, just were not really right for it, whether a mega opera about this situation was never enough.

[James Soule]

And, you know, speaking to that moment we talked about earlier, where we don't get to see Kim's thought process and how she arrives at her that, you know, as you said, her check. Final. Checkmate.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And it's so. It's like this strange thing of, like, why was that the thing that wasn't dramatized, you know, why. Why were certain things prioritized in terms of the things we get to see as an audience and other things weren't right. And that speaks to skill level. That speaks to process and workshopping things and figuring out what an audience responds to, what an audience needs to really be transported.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I think that comes from what interests the writers more than Vietnam and what interests Cameron macintosh from a marketing perspective as we tie now into the revival is romance. Most people, not everyone in the world can relate to the Vietnam War, but a lot of people can relate to being in love.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And so the romance is what's at the Center. And I think that is for such a main ingredient. It's something that doesn't bite for me. And I think the writers do try to have it both ways. By then having Chris kind of explain an Act 2, he's like, I thought it was this. It wasn't. And I think that's something that could be. There's so many elements of mystic island, like, that's its own play. And you're doing all of them in one, two and a half hour time.

[James Soule]

Exactly. Totally. So, meaning, like, I mean, could there be something about the three years that she's trying to survive a montage of that? Right. Also the falling in love, you know, whatever that. That happens in those two weeks where they're living together. Like, you know, I'm not a writer, so I don't know how to do that. But again, like, what. What should be dramatized and what shouldn't. And by dramatized, I mean what should be put on that stage? So we see it, we experience it to then get to the next story point, right? And then to be able to truly empathize, be transported, you know, connect with these. These. These people, right? These characters, these fictional characters.

[Matt Koplik]

The. The thing that Chris and Kim have at the beginning, I mean, ah, it's such. It's so Madonna hori. Because essentially, like, yes, it's totally, totally. Because Chris is like, I'm tired of this life. I don't like having sex with sex workers anymore. I'm done. I don't like it. I'm in a funk.

[James Soule]

And he sees this girl in a dress, not a bikini, virginal white dress.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is totally orchestrated, because at first the engineer is pissed that he sees her in a dress, like, what are you doing? That dress? And he goes, oh, no, wait, I got it. You're my virginal bride.

[James Soule]

This is the. What's the word? This is the scheme I'll use.

[Matt Koplik]

He says, men will pay the moon to get fresh meat. And the girls are pissed because as far as they're aware, the virgin stuff is trite. And over.

[James Soule]

They've all done it. They all did it, like, three years.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, It's. Honestly, it's. One of my favorite lyrics in the show is when Kim shows up and they say, give the virgin act the rest. And they, like, go up to her, they mock her, they go, you are my first aunt, Mary Ken.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, we've all had to say it before. Like, it's fucking dumb. And like. And yes, they all buy it, but, you know, come on, girl, get to art level.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Kim. Kim likes Chris in the sense, you know, she's told she's got to say she likes the Johns that she's with. But also, he's not groping her in the way that these other men are.

[James Soule]

Yeah. And there's a directorial moment, too, right. Of, like, one of the other soldiers, like, almost takes, like, physically abusive, and he doesn't. And so there's a moment where, like, she could. You could, you know, in the way you direct it or whatever, you could show that she's actively choosing this person over the other.

[Matt Koplik]

He dances with her. And it's a way that. Showing her some respect, because the way that. And as I said, you know, the show is not sexy. The show shows sexuality, but it shows in a very gross manner the way that the men treat the bar girls in the opening number. It's very rough and, like, they're objects. And the girls know that.

[James Soule]

And sort of amped up in the revival, too.

[Matt Koplik]

They went for. They went further with that in the revival, which I will get to, but this is a very long episode, and I do not care.

[James Soule]

Well, you're not gonna use all of it. You'll cut out the passion thing stuff.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe. Maybe I will. But, you know, also.

[James Soule]

And I'm gonna publicly apologize and say it's all my fault because I've been meandering so much in this conversation.

[Matt Koplik]

We both. To your listeners, this is how the podcast works, though. And actually, we have to. When we get to the end, and I have some reviews I gotta read, one reads me for filth about this. But so Kim, all she knows about Chris is, you know, he is relatively kind. She does. When she does her. I'm 17 and I'm new here today. Certain GIs, like, are fussing with her dress. They're trying to, like, get a peak.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And so he's the only one who isn't doing that. So that's all she really knows about him. All he sees is a virginal girl.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's what takes his breath away. And the fact that she's, you know, looks like Leia Salonga or even Elizada.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

That's a goddamn beautiful woman.

[James Soule]

Beautiful, beautiful women.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And so. And so the. And he originally doesn't want to have sex with her. He, you know, he finds it.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He's over and done with.

[James Soule]

But that.

[Matt Koplik]

That.

[James Soule]

In that thing. Yeah. Of. Oh, oh, my God, you're in the midst. I. I can buy that. Like, I. I'm. I'm not. That doesn't. So that doesn't that doesn't feel like a. A challenge for me to latch onto.

[Matt Koplik]

And we talked about this with Carousel because one said sort of happened to him, you know, fall. You know, instant love. Love at first sight. That's not really what it is. It's a.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

It's an attraction. It's a connection.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

That you can't totally explain. It usually turns into love. And the same is true of Kim and Chris, where I'm. I don't buy the romance as much, only because, like, how the time that we spend with them falling in love for me is not laid out. Well.

[James Soule]

Yes, that's right. So that's the problem.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Is that the initial thing of, like, oh, my God, Jesus, John, who is she? The white dress, Even her reactions to him? Because he's like. He seems to be slightly different. We're not sure yet, but seems to be slightly different. Right. So they're both kind of like, you know, edging towards each other. But it's the. It's after. After they sleep, they do the dance. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And the engineer first is about to raise hell because John's paid for her. Chris won't sleep with her.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so the engineer's like, what did she do? And basically, Kim is like, just. She's like, just come with me. Like, we'll get out of here. And all they really need to do is just get out of there.

[Sam]

But they.

[Matt Koplik]

They go. And they do have sex.

[James Soule]

They. Yeah, so they go. They have sex. He sings this song, why, God, why?

[Matt Koplik]

Which at the time, a lot of people said, sounds like there's a small hotel. Which I understand why, God, why today? Which is there's a small hotel. I had someone tell me that it sounds like a Barry Manilow song that I've never heard before. And I didn't. And I didn't. And I didn't listen to the song. But this person claims that they. The chord progressions are exactly the same. I'm gonna take them at their word because they do this for a living.

[Sam]

I love it.

[James Soule]

I love it. You learn so much on this podcast. And then they have their first duet, Right. Which is supposedly the moment where.

[Matt Koplik]

After she's read him for filth.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

When he's like. When he's like, I don't know anything about you.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And she's like.

[James Soule]

And she tells him all that stuff, and then they sing the duet. And I guess that's when we're supposed to. What are we supposed to feel as an audience in that moment? Are we supposed to feel that of.

[Matt Koplik]

Their love of the love song.

[James Soule]

Like. Yeah. Are they. They're on their way. Like, they're on their way to being something real and meaningful. And what. What do you think he wants out of this? Like, after the. The first duet.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And he's gonna bring the. The thing and. Do you want to live together? Is what he says.

[Matt Koplik]

Why don't you get out of where you're at?

[James Soule]

Like, does. Stay with me. Is. Does he say. I can't remember? Does he say, like, you're gonna come with me to the States or something?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, he doesn't know that Saigon's gonna fall just yet. He also doesn't know it's gonna be in two weeks. Okay. So as far as he's concerned, it's like, we're just gonna live. We're gonna live together.

[James Soule]

Okay. And when does he have a phone call with John?

[Matt Koplik]

He has the phone call with John literally the day he tells Kim, come live with me. And he says, I'm taking all my leave.

[James Soule]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

She and I basically are gonna, like rabbits. He literally says, we were not gonna see the sun for 48 hours. It's like, oh, so you're gonna keep. Because that's the thing. YouTube.

[James Soule]

And then John's like, wait a minute. Stuff isn't great here. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He's like, it's gonna. It's gonna go bad soon. But there's already, like, Whispers on the street. It's not gonna go well, because the engineer even says in the opening at Dreamland, he goes, they say Saigon has.

[James Soule]

Yes, right? And there's a lot of lyrics. The soldiers even sing some lyrics, too.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Sam]

Yeah. About that.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, it could happen anytime now.

[James Soule]

So then it's like, okay, so then what. What is he. What. What is this relationship? Does it matter? I don't know. But, you know, but I think in order at the end of it, Kim has to think they're married. Like, this is real. This is real love. Right?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, okay, sort of. Here's. Here's the thing. The ceremony with the gobbledygook ishness. When he says, what are the words? What do the words mean?

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

She says, it's what girls sing in weddings.

[Sam]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

And then he does, like, the double take.

[James Soule]

Her.

[Matt Koplik]

Her answer for that is, well, they didn't know what else to sing because ultimately what they were doing was blessing the room.

[James Soule]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

She's basically gonna be living in sin with another man for the foreseeable future. And so it's not unclear if she's like, we're getting married. Now, so much as she's like, this is, you know, the most honorable thing I can do for my ancestors. And when Chris sings to her, it's the prettiest song I've ever heard. To her, that's sort of like, oh, you're into it. I do, yes.

[James Soule]

And then the traumatic thing of Tui coming in and, like, the gun and the chaos that he creates, which then that also makes sense once he's gone, of, like, them coming back together.

[Matt Koplik]

Right.

[James Soule]

Because they've just. Holy shit. What was that? That, you know, that kind of energy, and it's like. And then they sing their second duet last.

[Matt Koplik]

Last night of the world.

[James Soule]

Yeah. And so it's like, okay. By the end of that song, are they married? Are they. Is it real? Is it real love?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I think for Kim it is.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Then this is where Kim is relatively naive, and I think if we're gonna put any blame on her, and I don't want to, because I like her very much.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

She does put a lot of faith into Chris as sort of a savior. He's taken me out of something that was already very bad, could have potentially gotten a lot worse. In so far, in her world, he hasn't done anything for her to doubt him.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think so she puts a lot of faith.

[James Soule]

Misplaced faith in. In this. In this person who turns out to be very young, very, you know, not particularly smart or emotionally intelligent.

[Matt Koplik]

He's incredibly dumb.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Okay. Okay, okay. I buy that. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Chris. I think when you ask about what was Chris's end game with Kim and all of this.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't think Chris had one.

[Sam]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't think he ever.

[James Soule]

Because he doesn't know that Saigon's gonna fall. So he's, like, beyond that.

[Matt Koplik]

I think Chris is just mostly following a feeling.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's ultimately what leads to him with Ellen as well. You know, he's. He says, you know, for the first time, I could feel again. And it's because. And ultimately it was because of Kim. So he get like a junkie, kind of just kept chasing the feeling. He felt happiest with her. He felt most alive, like he was doing good with her, he could protect her, and he was going to continue to do good. And I think as his time.

[James Soule]

As profoundly as he can be. Yes. Profound.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly.

[James Soule]

As deep as he can be.

[Matt Koplik]

As deep as he goes.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

All right.

[James Soule]

I buy that too.

[Matt Koplik]

Which, you know, Chris only goes balls deep with sex. He doesn't go balls deep with emotion or, you know, accountability. But I think once last night of the world happens, that is when he's like, okay, we're gonna go to the States. We're gonna get married. I think that is as close to a concrete plan as he makes for them.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

But of course, dumb dumb that he is, he doesn't start planning ahead or thinking about how, you know, scary everything truly is.

[Sam]

Right.

[James Soule]

And how it's gonna actually happen.

[Matt Koplik]

And what makes him extremely dumb is that he's being told this by people and he's still not doing jack shit.

[Sam]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Even Kim is like, don't go to the embassy without me. Like, let me go with you. And he goes, no, I'll give you my gun. It'll be great. And he says, when I come back, be in this bed so we can fuck.

[James Soule]

Yeah, right, right.

[Matt Koplik]

Dum dum. He's a horny little dum dum. But apparently Kim knows how to fuck good, so good for her.

[James Soule]

I. She's.

[Matt Koplik]

That's why she's my icon, I think about.

[James Soule]

So, okay, since we are. We do need to talk a little about the revival.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

To sort of segue into that portion of the conversation. I do wonder about. Okay, what. How far can we go with reinterpretation, right. If. If the. If the genetics of any show is the text, right. The. The script, the. The lyrics, the music. Right. Those things that, in theory, are implacable. They are as they are. Like, how much can we do to, you know, go back to this word problematic? How much can we do to think, fix a problematic thing? Like what. How much. How much can a director do? How much can a choreographer do? You know, if. If the conceit of this game is, like, you can't really around too much with the text. Right. Or the music. Right. So I've been grappling with this question a lot, just as an audience member and seeing things so, like, you know, I. That revival of King and I, it was beautiful, right? It was beautiful to look at. I. I didn't see Kelly and Ken Watanabe. I saw Daniel D. Kim and Mary May Rest in Peace. You saw the better duo, and Ruthie was still in it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, no, that was. That's. That's the correct trio.

[James Soule]

And I did walk away from that revival thinking the only reason to do it was for her, for the new stuff that I saw about her reclaiming Lady Tiang.

[Sam]

Yeah. Yeah.

[James Soule]

But the thing is, like, as. As rich as. I mean, God, Ruthie's so good. She's. I just think she's wonderful. But there's only so much that can be done.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

You know, maybe a silent presence in the back of a scene that she's not. She's not originally written into, but she's there and she's, you know, casting a glow, a presence or whatever. And it helps to an extent. I don't know if it fixes anything. I don't know if I'm not implying necessarily the king and I needs to be fixed per se. But what I am saying is that, okay, how much. If a director is going to come in and do something different, how much can be done? How much actually can be done? So. Which leads to the, to my real question is, like, how much could ever be done with this piece? Because I don't, like, I'll be honest, I don't remember a ton from the revival. I remember that the opening number felt a lot. I don't know, for lack of a better word, bolder in the choices that were being made in terms of how these women were handled. Right. By these American soldiers. But I don't remember a ton else. I don't remember that there were like big, sweeping directorial signatures that really like shifted focus of the show or, you know, I.

[Matt Koplik]

That's not what Lawrence Connor does with a Macintosh revival.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So first of all, any director who ever has said, I think I can fix the show first nail in the coffin.

[James Soule]

Because there is that. That production that happened a few years ago at some regional theater in the uk.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

The Sheffield Crucible, I feel it's called.

[Matt Koplik]

It was. They had a female engineer.

[James Soule]

Female engineer.

[Matt Koplik]

Chris and Ellen were black.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And they did some other stuff that I don't know about. I. Because I didn't see it, but I read.

[James Soule]

I've been wondering about stuff like that because, you know, if certain things cannot be changed with the things that are a bit more plastic. Like, because I thought, you know, as I was. As I was watching stuff, you know, for the show, for this, for the recording of this podcast, I thought about, like, I wonder if there were like, were there Asian American GIs serving in Vietnam? And it turns out there were. And I was like, what would it be like if there were. If Chris were an Asian American, would that do anything? Would that shift the focus? Not to say that it would necessarily solve a pro, solve a show, but could it offer something? Could it refocus things in a certain way?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, it's why we don't use the term colorblind casting anymore. We use color conscious casting because every. When people say, oh, I don't See race, it's like, no, you do. Because it exists. And every person's walk of life is different based off of, you know, their experiences. And that changes, unfortunately, based off of gender, sexuality, ethnicity, religion, and. Yeah, so I think having an Asian Chris immediately changes shit. Just. And you ask the actor, like, okay, like, what's this journey he goes on now because of this being in the situation. But so, as I said, first of all, the moment you say, I want to fix this. Done, you're dead.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Not a single one has ever worked. I think the best revivals come from directors who look at a text and go, there is so much here that people haven't discovered when they genuinely like the show they're doing and they want. They go, I want the world to see what I see.

[Sam]

Love it. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Those are the ones that work the best.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

I totally agree with you about this revival opinion because, you know, I keep going back to your previous episodes, but the thing that you talk about with Carousel like that, there's so much sex and guts in it and, you know, maybe previous iterations of it prior to the Lincoln center revival or the National Theater revival, it just wasn't directed or there wasn't. It wasn't appropriate for a given period of Broadway or theater where that stuff could really exist on the surface.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Or maybe that's the wrong way to put it, but it just couldn't exist in a really vibrant, you know, especially in music, punctuated way.

[Sam]

Yes. Yeah.

[James Soule]

And so for it to come through and for it to be sort of revealed in this piece that everyone thought, you know, we knew from the movie or whatever, there's a politeness, a niceness to it or pleasantness to it. And it's not that there's actually a lot of edges. There's a lot of sharper, sensual, sexual edges to it. And I think that's. That's right.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so you have to ask yourself, what is it that makes human beings ultimately make their dumbest decisions or their most irrational decisions? And I think it comes down to survival, greed, and horniness.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And Miss Saigon actually has all three of it.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

The engineer does what you said.

[James Soule]

Each of those words in my brain clocked a moment in my own life.

[Sam]

Like, yep, yep, yep, yep.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. And I think that, you know, when we're. When we're desperate to survive, to get out or whatever. Greed. That's the engineer. Everything he does is for the greed of. It's greed and survival combined.

[Sam]

Right.

[James Soule]

And it's not just money necessarily. Agreed. For money. It's agreed. For ways of living and ways of existing. That.

[Sam]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

For acclamation, you know, and. And Chris is for horniness and survival, essentially. And Chris's biggest failure as a human being ultimately is just his obtuseness and his inability to see past his left arm. And I think that. I mean, more so than my question of Kim and Ellen being about him, because I think, again, good sex can do that to a person. It's what keeps Julie around with Billy for so long, in addition to the love. But, like, love and good sex absolutely. Can get combined. You can both love someone and have very little chemistry. You can hate someone, have amazing sex with them when you.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

When you love someone or think you love someone and have really good sex with. Where it's, like, really compatible.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Good luck to you. Trying to unlock. Because, you know, once it gets toxic, you need, like, people to truly pry you.

[James Soule]

Yes, right.

[Matt Koplik]

But with my biggest, like, question, dramaturgically speaking, though, is like, why is John friends with Chris? Why is a smart man like John friends with a wet blanket dummy like Chris?

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But I guess we're meant to assume that before. Before the show began, they were more similar.

[James Soule]

Yeah. And there's a history.

[Sam]

Yes. Yes.

[James Soule]

And they were going out every night.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They were doing the same things for a long time.

[James Soule]

And, you know, maybe they don't have to be besties. You know, they. They. They might have a sort of a work proximity, a work colleague thing that. That. That's specific to, like, the military. You know, I'm not obviously in the military, but. But, you know, And. And also that. That's forged in this really challenging, difficult time of the, you know, the last couple years of the American presence in Vietnam. So. But maybe that doesn't necessarily mean that they're, like, you know, that they hang out every weekend or, you know, so maybe they don't have to be, like, the best of friends, but they are relatively intimate.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Where the revival for me fails because we're talking about, like, oh, can you fix something? I. I don't think that the revival tried to necessarily fix Miss Saigon. You're right.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Because Lawrence Connor, other than the Vietnamese.

[Matt Koplik]

On Broadway, other than rewriting the lyrics. For Broadway. Yeah. For the Ceremony.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which, you know, they still are relatively close to what the gobbledygook was, if only because you want those vowel placements to land where they land.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, nothing sounds better than Leia Salonga singing that gobbledygook. It's. She sounds so beautiful on It. But the revival tried to do a couple of things, and I think it pretty much failed at all of it.

[James Soule]

Do tell.

[Matt Koplik]

It tried to get us to care more about Chris and Ellen by writing another new song for Ellen.

[James Soule]

But then maybe is just for Ellen. Ellen. But in this. The revival last.

[Matt Koplik]

The last revival is just her.

[James Soule]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's replaces. Now that I. Now that I've seen her.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Now that I've seen her. Lyrically, is less about Kim trying to steal Chris and more like Ellen going, well, now that I put a face to the name, I can't. Like, she's not just some distant problem. Although then, like, immediately afterwards, Kris shows up, and they're like, well, we're still in love. And Kim. We can put Kim aside as a distant problem. So, like, that song ends up meaning nothing.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But maybe, like, it gets completely canceled out.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe it's just, like. It's the same difference. Right. It's.

[James Soule]

It's. It's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's this song that is a retaliation to a scene where Ellen ultimately didn't sink in. Anything Kim has said just said to her.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Which if the writers were doing that on purpose.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I would say it's a brilliant commentary on Becky's and Karen.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

But that's not what they're trying to do. They're trying to get the audience to feel for Ellen.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And we've, again, we've had some amazing act. Actresses play her. And I think because Ruthie Henschel is just, like, a beautiful presence on stage, and Liz Calloway sings like a damn angel, Part of us, like, has that conflict of, like, you're so compelling. But I don't care about this song.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think if.

[James Soule]

And if you're really listening as an audience member, it's like, this doesn't make any. This makes you unsympathetic.

[Matt Koplik]

And the show, I think, tries to lean into again, tries to lean in so much of the romance and that. And the revival tried to have that and that. And that tension of that triangle, which I just don't think exists. And I think a better, more interesting show is the idea of, like, whether Ellen realizes it or not, that, like, she's recommitting to a man she shouldn't have been with to begin with. Like, he had far more work he needed to do on himself. And she. She is just as at fault for thinking that she could fix him or thinking that, like, they would grow together and interesting.

[James Soule]

That, like. Like, a bunch of male creatives couldn't See that. Like, I think that's exactly right. I think that's the much more compelling journey for her. And it's not that that would necessarily automatically make her sympathetic, but it would certainly make it more plausible.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Like her. Her. Whatever you want to call it, her journey. More plausible.

[Matt Koplik]

But also, let me say this.

[James Soule]

It's like a bunch of dudes aren't going to see that. It's.

[Matt Koplik]

But she can. No, she can still commit to Chris. Because let me say this as well. Women are human beings. Hot take.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And like human beings, women can make just as much of a dumb decision.

[James Soule]

That's right.

[Matt Koplik]

I. I don't want to give too much away about my own life. I have seen plenty of women. I have unfortunately been involved with a woman where they make bad decisions.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And you can't. And smart women, too. And you can't tell them nothing.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

This is the Julie Jordan of it all.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think it would be if the writers. If one. If one more gay man besides Nick Kightner were in the room to be like, hey, let's investigate more of, like, Ellen's. On the precipice of this discovery, of this breakthrough, of walking away. But she doesn't do it in the end, because ultimately this is a tragedy. Wouldn't that be fascinating? But they don't do it again. Nine different things.

[James Soule]

But we see her grapple, like, we see her genuinely grapple with something human, with something real. Not. Not some sort of.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, that should be her song rather than, like, now that I've seen her. What. You know, I love Chris. Her song should be, like, who. Like, who was I anyway? Like, yeah, was I. Does he actually love me? Was I just another person he projected, you know, hope onto?

[James Soule]

Like, I see the parallels of her. She just told me that, you know, she's married to him. She was there for him. She bore a child for him. Like, she's willing to leave the child with us.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Like, what kind of woman is she? Is she. Are we the same in any way? You know, because the. The folk. The. The thing that connects us is Chris.

[Matt Koplik]

If he loves us both, we must be the same in some way. Or are we so different? What does that say about Chris? Or does it. Did it matter who the next woman was?

[James Soule]

Is it always, like, that's the more.

[Matt Koplik]

Questioning who she is in this. In this narrative, I think is a much better song for Ellen and would actually make us like Ellen more. Yeah, but that.

[James Soule]

I don't know if it. Again, I don't know entirely Sympathetic towards her, but.

[Matt Koplik]

But like her.

[James Soule]

Yeah, but I think, like, yeah, there.

[Matt Koplik]

Is make her a better character.

[James Soule]

There'd be more there for us to grab on.

[Matt Koplik]

That's actually Karen. Ellen can be someone.

[James Soule]

Karen.

[Matt Koplik]

No, Ellen is someone who can have three microaggressions in one scene and then be. And then have like a watershed moment.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And then ultimately still make the bad decision in the end. I think that's human. But.

[James Soule]

But we. You know what? We would see the messiness. We would see genuine messiness.

[Matt Koplik]

But the revival wasn't interested in that. They were interested in making us like her. They wanted us to sympathize with her. They want us to buy the contrived way.

[James Soule]

Not in a. Not in a genuine, like, I'm grappling with something.

[Matt Koplik]

No. Because ultimately the structure of the show was always going to stay the same. They could only make small changes within the moments. The show then also tries to go for the darkness, like the Deer Hunter element of the Vietnam War, of the roughness and the drugs and the drinking. And how did it do that exactly?

[James Soule]

Other than like, maybe the opening number.

[Matt Koplik]

But I don't know the physicality of that opening number. But also they did something.

[James Soule]

Were there, like, interstitial things?

[Matt Koplik]

Something that Lawrence Connor does as a director of these mega musical revivals he did with Les Mis 2 that I want to punch a wall is he added a lot of spoken ad libbing during numbers, in between scenes, during scene.

[James Soule]

Transitions, which Miss Saigon has a history of. Like. Yeah, in the original productions, like, a lot of the jokes are sort of spoken text that goes bonding to a song lyric.

[Matt Koplik]

But that's on purpose. That's. That's to. That's to be a punchline line, though, when. When Kim says, I killed two evil blah. And then the engineer goes, you did what? Like, that's meant to be funny. Or when Chris sings to John over the phone, she's like, she's not a April moon, she's the April moon. And John goes, the fucking April moon.

[James Soule]

So he.

[Matt Koplik]

Beyond this, he adds, like, I remember when. When Kim and Chris went up to her room to fuck for the first time. And like, John and the other GIs are walking off like they're all talking to each other in a way that was like, gritty, realistic.

[James Soule]

And I understand what they were saying.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, you could hear it. I remember the audience, like, chuckling because somebody said something as they went off stage. Like, almost came off like a laugh line. And to me, I hate it. And they did it with Les Mis, too. You Want to know why? Because the majority of the time, things are sung. And when you have a world where people speak longer than one sentence, you've now established this is a world where dialogue can happen. So when you have scenes of just straight music, it sounds even more ridiculous. It's why the Les Mis movie Blue, because there would be dialogue in between recitative. I'm like, no, no, no. Either everything is sung or nothing is sung.

[James Soule]

This is what I meant, though, about, like. Seems a little facile.

[Sam]

Like. Yeah.

[James Soule]

You're just kind of. It's a little bit of a cop out. Because if the thing that you establish is a sung through. Exactly.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Dream Girls gets away with it because they go back and forth a lot. That's woven in and out.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And they wait. And when things are heightened is when things are sung through all the time. But it's why the movie also, in my opinion, kind of blows because they do away with a retrograde to you at the opening scene of Heavy, but they keep it for it's all over and it looks stupid and it's all over because we haven't established that vocabulary.

[James Soule]

Yeah, right, right. And. But again, it's a question of, like, skill. Right. Ostensible skill. Because it's like if that's the thing that you choose is the conceit of your piece, but then you break the rules and you break them frequently. And then it's like sometimes you rely on that stuff for this, for story to progress. Is that. Is that skill? I don't know. It's arguable. Because if you're. If we're getting story, potentially even crucial points of story from these ad libs, the interstitial ad libs that are happening, what does that say about the writing of the piece as a whole?

[Matt Koplik]

Again, there's so many times Miss Saigon wants to have its cake and eat it, too. And I think where it's at its best is when it just sort of wholeheartedly commits to one thing.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And because it doesn't do it that often, that's why we call it nuggets. Yeah, but like.

[James Soule]

Yeah, right.

[Matt Koplik]

To bring it back to Chris again, because we've been talking about him off and on this entire time.

[James Soule]

Again, Chris is the villain of the story.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Fist him with a spiked dildo. But so, you know, Chris waking up with night sweats because of PTSD and imagining Kim, even though it's been three years later and he's now married to Ellen. That is to try to get us still to believe that he Has a conscience that he's conflicted.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

To which I say, great. He's not a sociopath. Fantastic. Like, if anything that makes me feel better for Kim. Like, Kim, you didn't put all of your faith into a monster like he is.

[James Soule]

Bare minimum. He's not a sociopath.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Bare minimum. He's not a sociopath.

[Sam]

Sociopath.

[Matt Koplik]

However we're not defined.

[James Soule]

We should.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't. While we shouldn't define ourselves by the worst things we've ever done, because we're all gonna up and some of us will up worse than others.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

You can try to do better and try to. And try to fix as much as you can of what you up.

[James Soule]

Right, right.

[Matt Koplik]

Ultimately, with carousels, I talk about, you know, what ends up saving Billy in the end is when he stops trying to think of saving his own soul and just try to help two people. He fucked up supremely.

[James Soule]

Yes. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And all it takes is 90 seconds. And in those 90 seconds. Yeah, it's not a total fix, but ultimately it's enough to get them to move on from him and that Chris.

[James Soule]

Should kill himself and come back as a ghost.

[Matt Koplik]

What Chris needs to do is write out a will, specifically leaving everything he's got to Kim and Tam.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Write a letter to Ellen saying, I'm so. I'm so sorry. I absolutely used you. You're better than me. Please find someone else. And then, like, provide Kim and Tam with all the paperwork to get them to the States. Provide a reference for Kim so she can get a job in an office building.

[James Soule]

Full support.

[Matt Koplik]

Full support. Or like, get, like, a teaching degree so she become a teacher.

[James Soule]

Love this idea.

[Sam]

Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

And then fucking throw himself into the ocean. That's what he needs to do.

[James Soule]

That should be the ending of the show.

[Matt Koplik]

The ending of a Saigon. Yes. Well, so again, we're not always the worst things we do, but we are the decisions we continue to make.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

And after we do bad things.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

And totally.

[Matt Koplik]

So Chris feels guilty.

[Sam]

Who?

[James Soule]

He has dreams that are keeping him up at night and waking the person up next to him and affecting the.

[Matt Koplik]

Person that he chose to marry.

[James Soule]

Yeah. So what is he going to do about it?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, especially now that he's been told, hey, the girl you have the nightmares about.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

She's alive. Guess what? You have a child with her.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

What are you gonna do?

[James Soule]

Where's your agency?

[Matt Koplik]

And what's his first response is? What can I do? I've got a new life now. I'm Chris.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Fucking dunce. And it ultimately first, his first response is, I can't tell Ellen. And then finally he's like, okay, I'll do the right thing. I'll tell Ellen. Tells her just enough so they. So they can go to Bangkok with no tension. And then she finds out the full story on her own. And his ultimate response is like, a cop out. I still feel guilty, but again, won't actually do the thing. It takes Kim playing murder on the dance floor to get him to fucking, you know, do the thing.

[James Soule]

Well, we don't know what he's gonna do exactly, but. But. But.

[Matt Koplik]

But if he doesn't do it, then he actually is a sociopath. And that means that Kim was wrong to put her trust in him. And I will not live that narrative.

[James Soule]

Okay. Fair, given. Given, again, who we know her to be.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[James Soule]

I know how smart and how savvy and how practical, pragmatic in all the best ways that we know her to be.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I am willing to give Kim 10% of mistakes because we're humans.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And her biggest crime is that she trusted Chris too much.

[James Soule]

Sure. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

He's not a bad person. He's just a dud.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And so I would like to believe now that he's holding a dead body in his hands.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Of someone he claimed he once loved.

[James Soule]

And has a kid with this person.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because what's a. What's a male Becky? Because he's not a Karen. He's a Becky.

[Sam]

It's.

[James Soule]

Is there a word for.

[Matt Koplik]

There's a male Becky?

[James Soule]

A Chad or something? Isn't that what it's.

[Matt Koplik]

I think Chad was, like, the male Karen, because that's like. That's the bro who's like, drinks for the table.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

I don't know what male Becky is.

[Matt Koplik]

Drew. I don't know.

[James Soule]

Drew.

[Sam]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

You know what? You want. You want to know what a male Becky is, Chris? Male Becky.

[James Soule]

Perfect. Nailed it.

[Matt Koplik]

Male Becky's are Chris's.

[James Soule]

Nailed it.

[Matt Koplik]

Chris. Because, like, he. God, he just wants, like, to be so clean of everything. He wants to be absolved. And so it's very, like, that Catholic guilt of, like, I. I admit I did wrong, and I feel guilty. Isn't that enough? It's like, no, get your hands dirty.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And make something right out of this.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Because there's a lyric he sings in that scene, too, that is reminiscent of the. You know, the truth of the history. Like, you know, I'm an American. How could I not do good?

[Matt Koplik]

Which was him trying to mock himself. Like, I thought I could do. Do good. How could I not? I'm an American.

[James Soule]

Right. So again, another nugget of like. Oh, right, yes. Okay. There's an awareness, a nugget of awareness.

[Matt Koplik]

But not in the moment, only of three years prior.

[James Soule]

Yes, that's right.

[Matt Koplik]

Because you're sitting there going, you're still an American. You still could do good. You're choosing not to. Instead, you're choosing to placate the woman who chose to marry you. So she wants to be.

[James Soule]

What have you been doing for these three years?

[Sam]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, my God.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Straight people, James, they're messes. They're fucking messes. Straight people, get your shit together. I'm done.

[James Soule]

Get it together. Straight people. Get it together.

[Matt Koplik]

Straight people. I hate them all.

[James Soule]

So then the revival is ultimately very. From a directorial viewpoint, it was very sort of workmanlike. Right. It just sort of like it. It tried to throw in some things to connect scenes better, make the sort of presence of the war, the context of the war, grittier, more violent. Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I think also because. Because, yeah, they wanted. They wanted all that. It was them sort of responding to criticism. So they.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

When they moved to Broadway, they altered the lyrics for the ceremony.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

They made it grittier. They gave Ellen a new song.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe trimmed a little bit here and there. But ultimately, like, it's the same. It's a very similar aesthetic. It's a similar singing style. They don't do any overhauls with the show. They even open it. I remember they opened it with the sound effect of the helicopter.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

They even actually, I think, made the engineer more cuddly and friendly because I did not get from Jon Jon a desperate need to survive and to come out on top. It was much more like anger, anger, anger. Joke. They added a Trump joke at the end of American Dream. Do you remember that?

[James Soule]

Oh, yeah. What was it?

[Matt Koplik]

After every. Because, like, the dream disappears and he's trying to catch them all, and Jon Jones says, oh, come back. We can make it great again.

[James Soule]

Oh, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And I remember thinking that was so fucking cheap. But ultimately, when you're doing a Cameron Macintosh.

[James Soule]

Did you get it? Did you get a sense of desperation from. Because, again, I didn't see Jonathan Pryce, like, from beginning to end. I've seen clips of his performance I.

[Matt Koplik]

Did from Jonathan Price.

[James Soule]

I got.

[Sam]

I got that.

[James Soule]

It's because, like, it's either this or death, basically. Right. Well, it's either this or.

[Matt Koplik]

And desperation can have many different forms. It can be willing to survive. It can be greed, even. Like, even. There's his Engineer Jonathan Price's engineer genuinely enjoyed the work that he did. It's what made him kind of like his genius was at like the scum level of the earth, but he was really good at making it work for him.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And sort of relishing that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So, like when he was. When. When the GIs show up at Dreamland, he is playing sort a of smarmy mc.

[Sam]

Yes.

[James Soule]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And very Alan Cumming and Cabaret. And when they're backstage, like, his. His focus with the women in the way that he's singing to them, it's not of a taskmaster because he's not saying to them, like, get on stage because you work for me. He's like, your passports could be out there. Go like. And the passport you get is the passport that I get. And it's just it. That's the kind of desperation that I hear from him. And it's a very theatrical style of performing that he does that I think also taps into the show really well, that even if you're not like, sure of what his motivations are, you're at least pulled into the theatrics of him.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

And because the revival wanted it both ways. They wanted to be big spectacle, musical theater, hullabaloo while also being like, but this one's so real.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I'm sitting here going, you wanna know what's not real? Two and a half hours of non stop singing.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's fine, that's great. But, like, you gotta give us a level of performance that justifies it. I think Eva did the best in terms of giving us that grandeur of singing while also giving us raw emotion.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I think mega musicals work best when it's not realistic acting, but raw acting.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

I buy that.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's why the 90s, the 90s are an interesting decade for American musicals because it's sort of like it was Broadway taking back musicals from the English, but every now and then their influence would still be infiltrated. It's the best stuff about Sideshow. It's the best stuff of Titanic, of just like epic, epic, epic. Even if you're still kind of being like, wait a second, so Emily Skinner's getting fingered on a fairground ride and Alice Ripley can feel the orgasm. And this whole thing is a musical number.

[James Soule]

Excuse. I do think. I do think that the excuse. There's no segue out of that. So I'm just going to talk about something. Do it. It's just, I think the balance of that. You're right. I think the musicals of that time are.

[Sam]

Are.

[James Soule]

Are striving to find that balance of, like, well, it's not naturalism, but it's not opera. So it's like, where do we live?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And. Yeah, I guess I just don't remember enough about the revival. I did. I do remember liking Eva a lot.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And Jon Jon, too. I loved his performance. And, you know, to that point, you know, Tara Rubin and one of. In that same New York Times article that I brought up earlier, where it's like snippets of people's, you know, thoughts on the show, you know, she brings up how the show has cast a lot of Asian American actors throughout the years, and maybe, she speculates, is even part of giving Asian American actors the platform to be able to learn and to improve and to get better and better and better. So I. I'm just saying this completely, you know, just without any context that, you know. You know, even with everything we've talked about with the show, you know, one of its amazing saving graces is. Is that it has employed a lot of Asian American actors and challenged them and help them learn how to rehearse, help them learn how to sustain eight performances a week.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And created the community and all that.

[Matt Koplik]

And has even given current playwrights something to write about. We have.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Totally untitled. Fuck. Miss Saigon play.

[James Soule]

Yes. The Kimberly play. Yes. And I would even argue. I. And I. I don't know the genesis of. Because Vietcong is ultimately going to be part of a trilogy. You know, I'm. I'm not going to. I'm sure I'd be misspeaking. I don't know if any of it has to do directly with Miss Saigon, but I imagine that because Miss Saigon has a large presence in the culture that in response to it, the CUI must have, you know, used some of that whatever, frustration or whatever to fuel the creation of these plays. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And you paved the road to hell with good intentions. Right. The writers in Masagon were trying to do something. They were trying to go beyond their scope and do something different that was out of their comfort zone. And, of course, it leads to a whole thing. And then you have writers since then who have tried to do their own thing or almost sort of in response to Miss Saigon of, like, this is the most internationally recognizable musical with Asian faces in it. Let me.

[James Soule]

This is the only way that we can get on stage.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So let me create something else that can go the distance in another way. And there may be a musical or two that came to Broadway with that response that I think, for, as, you know, bumpy as Miss Saigon is, or worse than Miss Saigon, maybe one in particular that starred Lea Salonga and an Ellen from the revival, Katie Rose Clark. I'm just saying I watched it. I went with a Tony Nominator, and we walked out and she said to me, matthew, you know, I cannot tell you my thoughts on this because I have to keep them private. She goes, but I could feel your energy during the final number, and I feel like we had similar thoughts. Would you mind telling me yours? And for 10 blocks, I said everything I thought was wrong was for Schmidt.

[James Soule]

All I'll say is that I auditioned for it and got down to final callbacks for one of the. For one of the.

[Matt Koplik]

Another reason I don't like. They didn't cast James Soul. They didn't cast James Soul. Listen, you and I. You and I had a private conversation on dm. I won't say about what show, but a show that, yes, is pro. Has, you know, very big in terms of the Asian community with its prominence and. And whatnot. And we talked about its faults that, like, no one was willing to talk about.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which. And I. And I think the problem is that because now, and this is sort of what the whole podcast series is discussing, is a lot of people don't know how to discuss structure or character or music or script or things like that in a way of, like, okay, how can we make this better? This. All this stuff here is rotted. Just on an objective level. Like, I find it rotted. You can't just go with, well, we're doing this great messaging or this great political thing. It's like, no, no, the show only succeeds if it's good.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Make it good.

[Sam]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Make it. Make it so that way no one can. Or people. You know, if people come at you with criticisms, you can come back at them with fire. And when you. When people don't like something, the first thing they want to say is problematic because that feels like a shutdown comment. Well, it's problematic. And if. And don't ask about it because you're problematic. If you're questioning my. My statement, that is problematic.

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think it's more interesting than that. And I think there are shows that try and fail, because as I also said on this podcast, many of these creatives are not Trumpers. They're. They are people with the right intentions.

[James Soule]

Yes, totally.

[Matt Koplik]

I think when we come at fire with. With people with this kind of stuff, it makes people not want to create because. Because Then they get in their head about, well, who's this gonna be offensive to? Who's this gonna be? What's that gonna be offensive to? I'm like, well, anything that's good is gonna make someone a little uncomfy.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And as you said this, I think off mic. I don't know if you said this on Mike. We've been talking for so long, but the question for some people is like, well, is this a problem or are you just uncomfortable?

[Sam]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Because then you have to ask yourself, you know, what that says about you.

[James Soule]

Yeah.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

There's. There's. Gen Z is sort of like now on this diatribe of, like, not having sex scenes anymore and everything's too sexualized and can't, you know, can't things be chased again? And I'm like, that's just a reaction to our generations that had a reaction to the previous generations. Our generation became more overtly sexual because the generations before us were so covered up. And now Gen Z is like, well, now everything's too sexual.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And, like, sex is a part of life.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And if it makes you uncomfortable, that doesn't necessarily mean there's a problem with the piece.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

There is a difference between. There's a line, a solid line between something that's offensive, but something that versus. Versus Something that makes us uncomfortable.

[Matt Koplik]

I think we should come up with some takeaways finally.

[James Soule]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

With Miss Saigon. My takeaways from Miss Saigon. I think Kim is a great character, at least. At the very least is a great challenge for an actress.

[James Soule]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Physically, vocally, emotionally. I have a lot of praise for her as a complex character. I see the criticisms. I think some of them are sound. I like to challenge them. With the Agency. The girl kills somebody. The girl gave birth during a communist regime and no one noticed. She does what it takes to survive. As I said, the only one who can kill Kim is Kim. And the final scene kisses. Kim's. Kim's chess move. That's. That's how I. That's how I prefer to call it. Chris. Villain.

[James Soule]

Total villain.

[Matt Koplik]

MALE Becky. Ellen not a villain.

[James Soule]

Chris is a Chris.

[Matt Koplik]

Chris. Chris is a Chris. Ellen is a. Not a total villain. She's a Vill Ellen. Vill Ellen. That's what I'm gonna call her.

[James Soule]

Maybe by the time they write the seventh song for her, they'll get it.

[Matt Koplik]

I hope that they listen to this episode and hear what we have to say about this. That song, about what that song should be and what I hate about all of its previous incarnations. If you're gonna make Ellen the kind of person that gives three microaggressions in two minutes, then you gotta ask yourself, who is she when she gets four minutes alone on stage?

[James Soule]

Yeah. Right.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

And. And can those four minutes have her really grapple with something that an audience can, number one, relate to and. And experience?

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Give her the journey of someone who is questioning everything but ultimately wants to hold on? I think we need a little more. I think we need a tad more cynicism in Miss Saigon. Because earnestness is something that a lot of people get turned off by.

[James Soule]

Oh, that's a good point too.

[Matt Koplik]

But I want the cynicism to be more. In the romance of it.

[James Soule]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Of that quote unquote triangle. Because I think in that triangle we've got two rotted points and one very nice point. The one nice point is Kim. The two rotted points are those assholes. I think the engineer is an interesting character that I don't know if he totally works. Because if you need a really compelling actor to make it work, I don't think that's necessarily great writing, but it is an opportunity for a compelling actor. And then the other question is, how big do you go? How small do you go? And how interested are people in our interpretation of Miss Saigon, of our Eva Van Hofe Lite production, where Kim doesn't move an ounce for her entire nightmare, where we do an epilogue where Kim gets up and talks about. This whole thing was a salt burn escapade.

[James Soule]

And we have that opening scene during the little two minute instrumental sequence of Chris, Ellen and Tam in sort of a modern day or, you know, 15 years after the story. And Tam is a teenager. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And Chris ultimately throws himself into the ocean. Baby.

[James Soule]

After writing the will.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, Kim's dead at this point, so it's just for Tam.

[James Soule]

It'll be just for Tam.

[Matt Koplik]

Just for Tam.

[Sam]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Soule]

Okay, I'm gonna repeat what I said earlier. Great. This show exists. Wonderful. That features these kinds of characters and these kinds of stories. Now it's time for something else. Even within the framework of, say, the Vietnam War or Vietnam at this time, the fact that they're the Vietnamese are that Vietnam feels disposable, that a lot of the Vietnamese characters. Like there's Tui, but he's sort of the ostensible villain, the conniving engineer. Great. But let's see what else there is. Let's explore what other kinds of stories there are. I think I'm going to reiterate that all the ideas I Think for the changes to show all the creative team should listen to and then give us points for any time it's revived. Absolutely. And. And again, all things are true.

[Sam]

Right?

[James Soule]

So it has its dramaturgical problems. It has legit criticisms as far as portrayals of. Of the certain kinds of people. And it's given a lot of employment to a lot of Asian American actors, a lot of great, talented Asian American actors giving them platforms to learn their craft and all that. So, you know, pros and cons exist. Are those all my takeaways?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, to go with what you were saying, as Tommy Tunes said in the musical seesaw, it's not where you start, it's where you finish. So just because you got your start with Miss Saigon doesn't mean you can't move on from Miss Saigon. My other takeaway again, sun and Moon reprise, makes me cry every time. I think it's gonna keep making me cry until I'm less broken as a person.

[James Soule]

All right, on that note.

[Matt Koplik]

On that note, James, this has been delightful. So great. I got wonderful.

[James Soule]

Thank you for having me.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you for having me. James. Where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[James Soule]

I'm on Instagram Amesoule. That's really it. I mean, I'm on Facebook, but I'm not on Facebook.

[Matt Koplik]

You can watch him on the Flight Attendant.

[James Soule]

Oh, I am on the Flight Attendant. Oh. I'm also in a new movie coming out. I can plug it now, Right. Because the. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Strikes over.

[James Soule]

It's called Problemista.

[Matt Koplik]

You're in that?

[James Soule]

Yeah, I have. I haven't seen it yet.

[Sam]

Okay.

[James Soule]

But reliable sources tell me that. But I'm not cut out of it.

[Matt Koplik]

Fantastic.

[James Soule]

I think the scene that I had two scenes in it. I think they've been reconfigured to do something that was not their original intention. But, yeah, I'm in it. It's this movie starring, written by, directed by the amazingly gifted Julio Torres. Google him if you do not know. Actually, I don't know what pronouns you might use. They. Them pronouns. But an amazing talent, writer, performer, stand up, does everything. This movie also features Tilda Swinton and is narrated by Isabella Rossellini. So, yes. So I don't know when it's coming out. It was supposed to come out in early August, but because of the sax strike. Yeah, they. They postponed the release. So.

[Matt Koplik]

But it is coming.

[James Soule]

Yes, it'll be coming soon.

[Matt Koplik]

If you want to follow me, Instagram only. Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, you can give us a nice 5 star rating or a review. And fun fact guys, we've got a couple out there. I found a few from a website. I think when it's not the United States, I don't read. I don't get to read them on Apple podcasts. So I found a few from outside of the United States. And so we start the lighting the piazza oorTure Music Now. Five stars. The best Deep Dive. Truly the funniest and most informative podcast on theater out there. Wonderful. Thank you Luke from the United Kingdom. Next up. So much fun and so insightful. I happen to stumble on this podcast and it's clear the host and his guests love and respect musical theater. We also do straight plays. It is thanks to this podcast that I watched the musical and if you haven't listened to that episode, do so then watch the Netflix movie. Deep dives into your favorite musicals laced with laugh out loud moments and genuine insight. A standing ovation from me. Thank you. Changing Lives Next up we have a two star review from I think it's Shanghai. It's called Great insights but bloated.

[James Soule]

That might be relevant to this depending on how you cut it. This three hour episode we've just done.

[Matt Koplik]

It'S a bloated episode starring two very lean boys. Pros. Very knowledgeable host, especially about the creatives and developmental process Cons. Unstructured? Sure are. Too many unrelated ramblings. Lampshaded but not fixed. What does that mean? Lampshaded? Uneven guest quality.

[James Soule]

Oh damn it.

[Matt Koplik]

Occasional chewing noises. I used to eat a lot on the podcast.

[James Soule]

I keep. I kept hitting my mic.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, I stopped eating. My guests are better except for today. Good for. Good for interesting tidbits and analysis about shows you know very well. Bad for learning about shows you don't. Enjoyment depends a lot on tolerating the hosts indulgences.

[James Soule]

Again, podcasts in general, come on.

[Matt Koplik]

But also, you know, ain't wrong. Just, you know, it's who I am. But also I've had people be like, no, the longer the better. Like I got the these long drives. I go on these long walks. Last one. This is a. This is the most recent one on Apple and it's a good one. Five stars. The only Broadway podcast you need. First and most importantly, Matt Koplik is the only Broadway podcaster with an appropriate appreciation of Judy Kuhn with his encyclopedic knowledge and unapologetic opinions. I don't know what you're talking about. I never said that Chris should go jump in the ocean. He offers inside, insightful Critiques and engaging historical context, making this podcast a must listen for any Broadway fan. In addition to dissecting plot direction, design, and performance, he also weaves historical references into his discussions, providing important background stories and enrich the listening experience. Most episodes hilariously follow a stream of consciousness and often go from not suitable for work discussions to profound analyses. Match shares, personal anecdotes and reflections. I have been doing that a lot lately, Reminding us of the emotional power of live theater and its ability to touch our hearts. This vulnerability makes the incredibly adorable host engaging and accessible. Five out of five Kunzies.

[James Soule]

That's so cute.

[Matt Koplik]

Isn't that an amazing review?

[James Soule]

That's an amazing review. And I think we did all of that in this episode.

[Matt Koplik]

I think we did. We didn't talk about Judy Kuhn once, but you wanna know why? Because Judy Kuhn would not touch the role of Ellen with a ten foot pole. She would say that she goes that way. Lies. Disgusting.

[James Soule]

She's too good for that.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, Kunzy, Kunzy, Kunzy. James, we close it every episode with the diva. Who would you like to play us out today?

[James Soule]

Oh, God.

[Matt Koplik]

No Ellens.

[James Soule]

No Ellens.

[Matt Koplik]

No Ellen. Luckily, no Chris's.

[James Soule]

And we can't say Kunzy. Right? Because we just talked about her.

[Matt Koplik]

We do Kunzy. We could do Leia. We could do Eva.

[James Soule]

We could do anybody. I love all those ladies. Obviously.

[Matt Koplik]

Can we have the three of them join together to do the angeloid Webber love trio?

[James Soule]

Oh, my God. The thing from the. My favorite Broadway thing. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Leading ladies.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

Oh, my gosh.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[James Soule]

You know what? You know who I will bring back up because I think I miss her a lot and seeing her in things is Marin. Maisie.

[Sam]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I love that.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Just for that, I'm gonna play her I hate men from kiss me Kate where she's giving birth on the picnic table.

[James Soule]

That's totally fair. That's totally fair. Or will you use that because it's on YouTube when she did it on some morning show? Yeah, you'll use that audio.

[Matt Koplik]

All right, so we're gonna do. We're gonna do Marin.

[James Soule]

I love that.

[Matt Koplik]

All right, thanks so much for listening, everybody. If you don't have a new episode next week, then that means we're taking a two week hiatus. We are taking a two week hiatus at one point. Either it's next week or the week after. So just know if you don't get a new episode next week, there will be a new one in two weeks. If you do get a new one next week, there will be a two week hiatus after that. It's been a very complicated time. I'm. I'm editing. I am. We are recording this on a Friday. It's coming out on a Thursday. It's a very wacky time.

[James Soule]

Podcasts are a lot of work.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

All right, take it away, Marin. We love you guys. Thank you so much for listening to this whole thing.

[James Soule]

Bye, everyone. Avoid the traveling salesman? Though attempting Tom? He may be from China? He will bring you jade and perfume from around gravy? But don't forget? Tis he who'll have the fun and the the baby?

[Sam]

Oh.

[James Soule]

If thou shouldst want a businessman? Be wary? I'll be wary? He'll tell you he's detending town on me?