Broadway Breakdown with Matt Koplik

Episode: "OH, MARY vs. JOB: Off-Broadway Transfer Battle"

Date: August 8, 2024
Host: Matt Koplik

Episode Overview

Matt returns for a bonus episode during the summer "hiatus," diving into two buzzy Off-Broadway-to-Broadway transfers: Job and Oh, Mary. With characteristic candor and wit, he delivers in-depth, irreverent analysis, exploring why each show has captured critical and popular attention (or not), their strengths and weaknesses, and their places in the broader theatrical landscape.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Podcast & Review Format Update [(00:36-06:05)]

• Season Breaks & Format:
  Matt explains temporary changes to the episode structure: less frequent "historique" deep dives for the summer, with grouped review episodes of current Broadway shows instead of one-off recaps.
• Press Access:
  The show now qualifies as press, allowing Matt to see more productions. Reviews and ratings from listeners have contributed to this – "So thank you for your reviews and your ratings and I actually have two new ones I got to read for you..." (05:25).
• Listener Reviews Read Aloud:
  Matt reads new fan reviews, riffing hilariously on being called "the Jagged Little Pill of musical theater podcasts" –

  “Matt is the jagged little pill of musical theater podcasts – rude. He’s fun, he’s loud, he’s so 2019…” (04:23)

Job (by Max Wolf Friedlich, dir. Michael Hurwitz)

(Discussion starts at 13:20)

Context & Expectations [(13:20-16:34)]

• Transfer Journey:
  "Job" premiered at Soho Playhouse to critical acclaim, had a successful commercial Off-Broadway stint, and transferred to Broadway's Hayes Theater for a limited summer run.
• Surprising Reception:
  Despite its Off-Broadway buzz, Broadway reviews are "decidedly mixed, leaning towards negative."

  “...the reviews for Broadway were decidedly mixed, leaning towards negative. Which took a lot of people by surprise because it was so well received Off-Broadway...” (06:17)

• Theater Space Difference:
  The shift from Soho (intimate) to Hayes (ten times larger, ~500 seats) could have affected the show's impact.

Play Synopsis, Characters & Staging [(16:35-27:40)]

• Premise:
  Two-hander, set in a psychiatrist’s office, San Francisco, Jan 2020.
  • Jane (Sidney Lemon): Tech worker, returning after a viral breakdown.
  • Lloyd (Peter Friedman): Psychiatrist, targeted when Jane arrives holding a gun.
• Staging:
  The set: Lloyd's office in a wall-less, black box space with colored light boxes acting as “audio memories” and triggers for Jane's mental unraveling.
• Plot Unfolds:
  Over 80 minutes, an interview-turned-interrogation reveals Jane’s psychological trauma and her morally ambiguous job—“content moderation” removing violent and illegal material from the web.

  “She would see these horrible videos and images ... and in her mind, she was doing good and she had power because she was able to clear it from the Internet…” (21:47)

• Psychological Toll:
  Jane becomes obsessed with tracking down the worst offenders, believing she has identified Lloyd (her psychiatrist) as a notorious child abuser she hunted online.

SPOILER: Final Twist & Ambiguity [(27:41-30:45)]

• Twist Ending:
  Jane accuses Lloyd of being the abuser, describing evidence ("degree from Berkeley, handmade tchotchkes") matching his earlier statements.
  • The moment:

    “It’s you. It’s you. I know it’s you. This is... It’s why my hand reached for the gun when I first walked in here, some part of me knew that it was you, and you’re never going to stop. And I got to kill you.” (27:31)

  • Lloyd bargains: offers to clear her for work if she puts the gun down.
  • Play ends ambiguously: does she kill him? Was he really guilty? Matt notes, “...on stage, it’s definitely open to interpretation... in the script, I think it’s pretty clear that she chooses to not shoot him and go after more people... but also kind of gave me the feeling that maybe it wasn’t him, that she was mistaken.”

Thematic & Performance Analysis [(30:46-41:00)]

• Themes:
  • Trauma and digital content's psychological effects.
  • Moral ambiguity of internet vigilantism.
  • Performers' showcase:

    “...it is a platform for two actors to work well off each other. And it’s 80 minutes, it’s tight. And that’s a pretty engaging argument for me…” (29:21)

• Critique:
  • Script remembered less than the performances or staging; "doesn't linger" in memory compared to shows like "Mary Jane."
  • Mixed critical reception: “Between Thursday and Tuesday, I haven’t thought about it all that much. I reread the script... but there was a lot about it that I kind of forgot or has become fuzzy...” (38:41)
  • Strong direction and design, especially the "memory box" lighting concept.

Notable Quotes

• On the Play’s Longevity:

  “...with sort of each passing day, I started asking myself, what is this play really about?... I slowly sort of started to pivot away from those questions and it just became like, what do I remember about this play?” (38:41)

• On the Performances:

  “...Peter Friedman and Sidney Lemon... both are fantastic. I would love to see the next thing that everybody does because... if Hurwitz and Friedlich have the careers I hope they have, this could be a really cool beginning.” (41:03)

Oh, Mary (by Cole Escola, dir. Sam Pinkleton)

(Discussion starts at 32:40)

Show Overview & Origins [(32:40-35:50)]

• Premise:
  A camp, ahistorical farce about Mary Todd Lincoln's final White House days, with drag and deliberate anachronisms. Cole Escola stars as Mary.

  “...a telling of Mary Todd Lincoln and her time in the White House as the Civil War is coming to an end... completely fictional...” (33:30)

• Creative Process:
  Escola did "almost less than no research," relying on "second grade memory" of the Lincolns.
• Style:
  “Very silly... very stupid... also 80 minutes... much like Job. And like Job, we have a leading lady and a gun on stage...”

Transfer to Broadway [(35:51-38:40)]

• Off-Broadway vs Broadway:
  • Broadway version is “tighter, faster, zippier,” but Matt misses some of the "dryness" and "unique edge" of the intimate downtown run.
  • Energy adapted for larger house, trades some intimacy for “zanier, buzzier” pacing.

    “...built up for Broadway... everyone’s energy is playing to the back of the house. What it misses a little bit for me is some of the dryness that it had Off-Broadway. There were certain moments that were milked a little bit longer... but the overall effect of Broadway is still good.” (36:30)

Performances & Direction [(38:41-43:56)]

• Cast:
  • Cole Escola as Mary: “...doesn’t do tongue-in-cheek. Plays it straight, but a very broad straight.”
  • Conrad Ricamora as Abe Lincoln: “not really in love with Mary... gives him all this kind of anxiety... has all these homo tendencies.”
  • James Scully as Mary’s teacher: “an edge to his character... you buy into him earlier on Broadway than Off Broadway.”
  • Bianca Leigh as chaperone: “...mostly exists to be a punching bag for Cole’s Mary."
• Atmosphere:
  • “Very downtown mentality,” evokes Charles Busch, John Waters.

    “...there’s this idea of you’re making art and it’s art for an audience, but it’s not art for everybody...” (43:10)

  • The joy is in specific, bold characters making “bad decisions spiral into worse decisions.”

Audience & Structure [(44:00-48:27)]

• Mixed Generations Laugh Together:
  “It was very heartwarming to watch... Gen Z, Gen Xers, couple Boomers... collectively finding the show hilarious.”
• Form:
  Structured as sketches/vignettes, moving swiftly; “a lot of one-liners and recurring jokes.”
  • Example recurring joke:

    “Mary doesn’t understand really that the war has happened... every time the south is brought up, her response is: ‘The south of what?’ and it’s very funny and everyone always loves it.” (46:16)

• Dramatic Arc:
  Despite chaos, “there is a forward momentum and it does move at a steady clip.”

Artistic Insight [(49:16-51:24)]

• Matt’s Creative Philosophy:

  “...if you’re never happy with your work, why ever do it? But if you’re always happy with your work, why ever show it?” (49:34)

  • Praises Escola’s rare combination of “talent and intelligence.”
• Performance Style:
  Escola “plays the drag element... incredibly straightforward, camps it up so that you always know they’re in on the joke, but they’re not commenting on it... plays ridiculous earnestly.”

SPOILER: Plot Details & Climax [(51:25-56:24)]

• Revelations:
  • John Wilkes Booth appears as Mary’s acting coach and eventual would-be lover, part of a conspiracy with Abe (who is gay and using John).
  • Mary discovers her cabaret dreams, acting lessons, and even her theater audition have been part of a grand ruse to distract and dump her.
  • At Ford’s Theater, Mary, not Booth, takes the gun and shoots Abe, then drops the gun in Booth’s lap, framing him—

    “...Mary stands up, fed up, points the gun at Abe and shoots him. Drops the gun in John Wilkes Booth’s lap and shouts, 'Help! This man just shot my husband!' Blackout.” (55:10)

• Finale:
  Mary gets her cabaret wish, ending with a wild medley (e.g. “I’m a Little Teapot,” “She’ll Be Coming ’Round the Mountain”).

Transfer Value & Recommendation [(56:25-58:00)]

• Should You See It?
  • Highly recommends, but notes ticket price caveats:

    “This is not a show that I would say pay $350 for. But... if it’s in your budget and you want to see it badly enough, it is such a fun time, such a special time.” (57:28)

  • Flags potential for stunt casting in future runs.

Notable Quotes and Moments

• On "Job's" Aftertaste:

  “I think what Job has to its credit is ... it is a short show, it is a relatively tight show for 80 minutes, ... when you have two really good actors, it can really go by well. But ... I started asking myself, what is this play really about? ... Job really isn’t staying with me.” (39:05)

• On "Oh, Mary"'s Appeal:

  "It’s a play that is ... for an audience, but it’s not for everybody. ... leading with what interests you, and then tailoring it so that way other people can understand what you see, is a real gift ... Cole is someone who is very smart and very talented and has spent many years figuring out exactly what that talent is." (49:16)

• On Tackling Insanity Onstage:

  "This isn’t a Diana situation where we’re sitting there going, are you aware that this is insane? They are aware it’s insane." (53:48)

• On Art and Audience:

  “If you’re never happy with your work, why ever do it? But if you’re always happy with your work, why ever show it?” (49:34)

Segment Timestamps

| Time | Segment / Quote / Topic | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------| | 00:36 | Matt recaps podcast/season structure | | 05:25 | Listener reviews read, banter | | 13:20 | "Job" introduction and transfer context | | 16:35 | "Job" plot, set, and cast breakdown | | 27:31 | [SPOILER] Twist: Jane accuses Lloyd | | 30:46 | Analysis: themes, performances, memory | | 32:40 | "Oh, Mary" Off-Bway/Bway intro and style | | 36:30 | Transfer notes: energy, loss of "dryness" | | 38:41 | Cast breakdown, performance style | | 44:00 | Audience reaction, play structure, recurring jokes | | 49:16 | Matt’s “artist happiness” philosophy | | 51:25 | [SPOILER] "Oh, Mary" plot twist & ending | | 56:25 | Recommendation, future casting speculation | | 58:38 | Sign-off, tease upcoming episodes |

Final Thoughts

• "Job": A challenging, tightly wound two-hander with excellent performances, gripping in the moment but less memorable in the days after. Its ambiguity and topical subject matter may intrigue or frustrate, depending on the audience’s appetite for nuance and psychological thrillers.
• "Oh, Mary": Joyous, irreverent, boundary-pushing queer camp; both a loving (and very silly) satire and a surprisingly structured, character-driven play. Both for devotees of the downtown scene and open-minded Broadway crowds seeking something wild and new.

Coming Next…

• Review of Once Upon a Mattress
• Interview with Andrea Grody (Suffs music director/vocal arranger)

“More to come soon... Stay tuned next week for two episodes!” (57:50)

For more, follow Matt on Instagram (mattkoplik), and check out bwaybreakdown.substack.com.