Broadway Breakdown: "PASSION" with Ali Gordon

Podcast Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Ali Gordon
Episode Title: PASSION w/ Ali Gordon
Release Date: November 28, 2024

Episode Overview

This week, Matt Koplik welcomes back Ali Gordon for a deep dive into Stephen Sondheim and James Lapine’s 1994 musical, Passion. True to form, the conversation is a raucous, opinionated, and profoundly nerdy discourse, with the pair dissecting the show’s controversial legacy, strange beauty, and the messy intersection of love and obsession at its core. Expect plenty of four-letter words, drag queen references, and sharp theater kid banter as they traverse the landscape of Broadway’s most divisive Tony winner.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

The DNA of "Passion"

[03:47-07:47]

• Setting the Scene:
  • "We're talking about the drag queen's dream, Passion." – Ali [03:50]
  • Passion is identified as a role and show full of high-intensity emotion, ripe for theatrical excess and queer fandom.
• Background:
  • Matt and Ali reminisce about their early (teenage) obsessions and the experience of "discovering" Passion, particularly the allure of the character Fosca for young theater weirdos.
  • Ali: "The role of Fosca, I was like, this is the culture that makes me say culture is for me. I identified with it and was obsessed…"

Why Teenage Geeks Love Fosca

[05:39-08:10]

• Fosca's Appeal:
  • Ali confesses that, as a teenager, she connected more to Fosca than to typical ingenues like Mrs. Lovett or Joanne:
    -"When you're 15, you think you are the ugliest person in the entire world… Fosca became like a dream role for 15-year-old me." [05:39]
• The Romanticism of Obsession:
  • Both hosts discuss the fantasy of loving so hard that it kills you—idealized in teenage sex-obsessed minds:
    • "How hot to come so hard that you die." – Matt [06:14]
    • "Especially when you are young and sex is still a weird, scary concept… you're dreaming about what adulthood and life means, you're like, that's the most romantic thing I've ever heard!" – Ali [06:18]

Plot & Themes of Passion: For the "Uncultured F***s"

[25:10-29:10]

• Brief Synopsis (Ali):
  • Giorgio, an Italian soldier, is sent to a remote outpost and becomes entangled with Fosca, a chronically ill, emotionally intense woman—the cousin of his colonel—while continuing an affair with married Clara. Fosca’s obsessive love, initially repulsive, ultimately overwhelms Giorgio, leading to emotional dissolution and tragedy.
  • "[Fosca's] not well necessarily. But over time, [Giorgio] starts to become more enamored… her love is so straightforward and so intense." – Ali [27:05]
  • "The show culminates with [Giorgio] a shell of a man, as Fosca's obsession has 'infected' him," referencing Sondheim’s reading of the Donmar Warehouse production [51:45-51:58].

The Nature of Love – What Is Passion’s Point?

[29:07–40:00, revisited: 120:00+]

• Clara vs Fosca: Two Models of Love
  • Clara represents sexual passion, societal conformity, and conditional love ("I have a child, I can't be with you"), versus Fosca’s unconditional, obsessive devotion.
  • Giorgio's arc is about discovering the destructive, transformative power of being loved completely—at a cost.
• Messiness and Relatability:
  • Ali: "Love is not simple… it's got toxicity, pride, confusion, disgust. I think love is the seed of the show and everything that sprouts from it is what it's actually about." [66:01]
  • The hosts discuss modern fixation on "relatability" in fiction and why Passion's characters aren’t designed to be likable or morally legible—“Get a load of this.” [55:01]

Passion in the Sondheim Canon & Broadway's Reaction

[59:38–66:00]

• Greeted with Hostility
  • Previews saw audiences literally jeering—"Die, Fosca, die!"—and cheering at her lowest moments.
  • Resistance to the show’s musical style (operatic, non-hummable), subject matter, and especially to a romance with a physically and emotionally "unattractive" woman at the center.
  • "Audiences wanted to like Fosca. They wanted to get on board with this love story… They just hated her so much." – Matt [61:55]
• Critical Reception
  • Mixed to hostile reviews, with some critics labeling it "the nail in the coffin" for Sondheim's career—a view disproved by Passion’s enduring cult status and continuing reassessment.

The Anatomy of Fosca: Performance, Looks, and Legacy

[88:09–95:04 and scattered]

• Does Fosca HAVE to Be Ugly?
  • Discussion of interpretive tradition vs. open possibilities:
    • "It's too… it's not about, can't… why must we de-glam all these beautiful actresses? …Make her unappealing in every way you possibly can and then watch this story unfold anyway." – Matt [112:44]
• Donna Murphy’s Original: Strength or Hindrance?
  • Her riveting, room-commanding performance considered both a key to the original’s legacy and (potentially) an obstacle. Later productions (Kennedy Center, Donmar Warehouse) clarified Giorgio’s arc by shifting focus onto him.

Passion and the Experience of Obsession

[117:14–120:00+]

• The Uncomfortable Truth of Loving (or Being Loved) Too Much:
  • Fosca as a proto-pick-me, depressive queen:
    • "She is the thing our society is always kind of rejecting… The pick-me girl, the Debbie Downer—but brash, raw, and earnest without sarcasm." – Matt [117:14]
  • Modern discomfort with vulnerability and full-throated yearning; the role’s appeal both for the performer and for the audience who see a secret self reflected.

Broader Reflections: Relatability, Friendship, and "Passion" vs. "Love"

[136:00–148:00, 150:06+]

• Healthy Love vs. Obsessive Love
  • In love, one needs to be "another whole, not another half," and not define oneself entirely by another person.
    – "If you can't love yourself, how the hell are you gonna love somebody else? Can I get an amen?" [126:55]
  • Clara’s "conditional" love, Giorgio’s obsession, and Fosca’s total devotion—all shown with nuance, outside simple judgments of right and wrong.
• Passion in Real Life
  • Ali describes the difference between enduring, communicative, safe love, and the wildness depicted in Passion:
    • "That's really love… That's why the show's not called love, it's called Passion." [148:22]
  • Matt: "When it comes to matters of the heart, doing an about face is very easy to do and going to happen all the time." [157:40]

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the show’s appeal:
  "The role of Fosca… I was like, this is the culture that makes me say culture is for me." – Ali, [04:11]
• On first discovering the show’s “scandalous” sex/death theme:
  "How hot to come so hard you die?" – Matt [06:14]
• On being a weird theater teen:
  "When you're 15, you think you are the ugliest person in the world." – Ali [05:39]
• On what Fosca wants:
  "She never says, 'you will fall for me.' It's at the end where you realize… I am someone to be loved, which she never thought she could be." – Matt [41:53]
• On the structure of Passion:
  "As close to opera/operetta as [Sondheim] ever tiptoed. There are a lot of parts that are sort of transitionary… they're not super memorable…there are a couple little arias throughout that you remember." – Ali [17:33]
• On the repulsion and seduction of Fosca:
  "It's about how [Giorgio] is going to fall in love with her. And at the same time thinking, they're never going to convince me of that…all the while knowing they would." – Sondheim (quoted by Ali) [49:04]
• On representation, identity, and why relatability isn’t everything:
  "We're obsessed with, 'can I, as the audience, identify with this character?' …To me, that's not the point of fiction. The point is to create characters like Fosca and be like, get a load of this." – Ali [55:01]

Discord & Listener Feedback

[22:26]

• The Broadway Breakdown Discord channel is a recurring feature, with listeners submitting questions, praise for Ali ("please just tell her that we love her...", [24:24]), and debate over what the show is about and how it resonates.
• Running jokes about possible T-shirt slogans: “Proud Uncultured Fuck”, “Die, Fosca, Die”, “The least famous and most opinionated Broadway podcast host.”

Segment Timestamps

• [03:47] Introduction of Passion – Matt & Ali’s personal connections
• [05:39] Fosca’s appeal for theater kids
• [25:10] Ali summarizes the plot of Passion
• [29:07] The show’s take on love & obsession
• [59:38] Broadway audience reactions and previews debacle
• [88:09] Donna Murphy, the legacy of Fosca, and how later productions reshaped the show
• [120:00+] Real-life relationships contrasted with Passion’s brand of love
• [148:22] The difference between love and passion in narrative and in life
• [160:34] The show's place in the Sondheim canon, its inaccessibility, and enduring mystique

In Conclusion: Passion’s Place in Broadway and Sondheim Lore

Passion endures as a rare, audacious experiment—a musical without easy songs, tidy moral lessons, or conventionally “likable” leads. Matt and Ali champion its willingness to make audiences uncomfortable, providing no authorial hand-holding, and offering instead an intimate, unsettling examination of devotion, desire, and self-abandonment.

As Ali concludes:

"I think it's not for everyone, and I think that's to its credit… I really admire that, and I want to believe I am that person, but I don't know if I truly am."

It is a show that continues to polarize and fascinate, much as love—and passion—itself does.

Further Resources

• Watch the Original Broadway Recording with Commentary: [YouTube link recommended by hosts]
• Recommended cast recordings: The 2013 Classic Stage Company album (Judy Kuhn, Ryan Silverman, Rebecca Luker) for its completeness and nuanced performances.

For more banter, facts, and theater history, follow Broadway Breakdown or join the Discord Channel. And don’t forget: If you’re lost in love, look for another whole.