SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS w/ Jon Reilly

Summary

---

Broadway Breakdown: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS with Jon Reilly

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Jon Reilly
Release Date: July 18, 2024

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Matt Koplik and guest Jon Reilly (host of the "Life’s But a Song" podcast) take a deep, brutally honest, and frequently hilarious look at the legacy, challenges, and problematic nature of the beloved MGM musical, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers (1954). They scrutinize the cinematic classic's impact, its notorious plotline, its translation to the stage, and whether it deserves its esteemed place in musical theater history. This forms part of Matt’s ongoing series examining “problematic shows you’re mad at and their possible redemption.”

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers?" – Context of Its Legacy

• Unusual for the Podcast: This is a rare episode focused primarily on a movie musical, not a Broadway show, because the film's influence on musical theater is so outsized.
• Cultural Impact: The movie remains beloved, had box office success (top ten in 1954), was Oscar-nominated for Best Picture, and spawned TV shows, remakes, and notable regional stage productions.
  • "This movie was in the top 10 highest grossing films of the year. It was a nominee for Best Picture at the Oscars. That's super embarrassing." — Matt, [11:24]
• No Major Backlash: Unlike others in the "problematic" series, this film was never publicly reevaluated or especially condemned; most reactions remain nostalgic and affectionate.

2. First Encounters and Enduring Appeal

• Jon’s Nostalgia: Watched as a child, chiefly remembered for the barn raising dance.
  • "A lot of people forget about the rest of the movie. Except for the barn dance." — Jon, [15:40]
• Matt’s First-Time Watch: Only knew of its reputation—discovering the “problematic” plot and the unexpected horniness of the movie in real time.
  • "I did not know about the kidnapping. I did not know about the misogyny. I did not know about... how horny this movie is." — Matt, [23:39]

3. The Plot: A Wild, Problematic Ride

• Plot Breakdown: Set in 1850s Oregon, Adam weds Millie after knowing her for moments, and she discovers she’s expected to cook, clean, and civilize his six unruly brothers. The brothers, after Millie’s “training," kidnap women they fancy to forcibly bring to the homestead, inspiring an avalanche to cut them off from town. Over time, the women warm up to their captors—a plot loosely based on the Roman myth of the rape of the Sabine women.
  • "Adam comes in at the top of the movie being like, I'm going to get a wife today. Today's the day that I'm getting married." — Matt, [40:14]
• The Barn Raising Number: Universally recognized as the film's high point—a technical dance masterpiece and the scene everyone remembers.

4. Agency, Misogyny & Stockholm Syndrome

• Agency Debate: The screenplay’s credited writer, Dorothy Kingsley, claimed she gave Millie (the main female character) “agency.” Matt disagrees after reading both the original short story and watching the film, finding Millie mostly passive and righteous but not actually active.
  • "Dorothy Kingsley is absolutely wrong... in the short story, Millie actually hatches the plan to kidnap the wives. In the movie, she's just kind of there to admonish men." — Matt, [50:54–55:19]
• Stockholm Syndrome: The hosts note the classic “falling for your kidnapper” dynamic, with Jon frustrated by the quick reversal of outrage to desire among the brides.
  • "Ladies, ladies, you are better than this! Remember what, a few months ago, you were mad at them!" — Jon, [65:01]

5. The Musical's Gender Politics & Attempts at Adaptation

• Attempts to Fix the Story: Various stage adaptations (including a Broadway attempt in the 1980s) unsuccessfully tried to “fix” the story’s gender dynamics, often making only surface-level changes.
• Frank Rich’s Scathing Review: The infamous NY Times critic called the 1982 stage adaptation a “threadbare touring package” and criticized everything from the inexplicably red-haired brothers to the new, uninspired songs.
  • “How does one begin to describe Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, the threadbare touring package that mistakenly unpacked on Broadway last night?" — Frank Rich (quoted by Matt), [112:00]

6. Queerness, Horniness, and Choreographic Glory

• Covert Gay Appeal: The movie’s parade of shirtless, color-coded, dancing brothers, its “1950s horniness,” and the subtext of isolated men living together, all get the hosts’s irreverent, queer reading.
  • "If Pride Weekend was a movie, it would be this movie. Because on the surface level, they’re doing so much for the gays. But if you actually stop and pay attention—like, oh, you don’t care about the gays at all." — Matt, [31:51]
• The Barn Dance as High Art: Despite everything, the barn raising choreography remains iconic and, arguably, the single justification for the film’s cultural memory.

7. Why the Stage Versions Fail

• Stage Challenges: The central barn raising dance is so athletic and cinematic that stage versions inevitably disappoint; the story’s issues only magnify on a modern stage.
• Still a Regional Staple: Despite its Broadway flop, the show remains a perennial favorite for community and regional theaters.

8. How Could The Story Actually Be Fixed?

• The Hosts’ Consensus: Ultimately, the plot is so tied to kidnapping and forced marriage that it’s likely irredeemable without fundamentally changing the story’s DNA.
• Modern Sensibilities: Attempts to soften or justify the abductions—on stage or in reboots—fall flat. Audiences today find the central premise "creepy and weird."

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Musical’s Enduring Popularity:

  • “There isn't a major public backlash about this movie. When I shared on Instagram that we were covering this, the majority of the responses were 'I love this movie.'” — Matt, [10:34]

• On Agency in the Story:

  • "In the original short story, Millie—the 'bride'— actually engineers the kidnapping plot! In the movie, she's just a bystander." — Matt, [50:54–55:19]

• On Stockholm Syndrome:

  • "Nobody talks about the Stockholm in this!" — Jon, [20:06]
  • "The brothers never enforce violence or reward submissiveness, but outside of that, every other thing you would see in a textbook definition [of Stockholm syndrome] is here." — Matt, [63:35]

• On the Film’s Horniness:

  • "I did not know... how horny this movie is. And that was a pleasant surprise." — Matt, [23:39]

• On the Broadway Flop:

  • “Its scenes don’t so much end as lurch into darkness... Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, the fifth musical bomb to be planted in the Alvin in ten months.” — Frank Rich, [112:00]

• On Attempts to 'Fix' the Show:

  • "You can't really escape the kidnapping plotline. I guess what you can do is maybe try to frame it in a way where it's so obviously wrong—and hilariously wrong—but then how do you come back from that?" — Matt, [126:02]

• On the Queer Appeal and Costuming:

  • "If Pride Weekend was a movie, it would be this movie... hot men, rainbow shirts, but the narrative doesn't care about the gays." — Matt, [31:51]

• On Possible Revivals

  • “Do you think that it’ll ever come back to Broadway?” — Jon, [127:18]
  • “God, no. ...I don’t know how you come back from the kidnapping, or Adam being the absolute worst.” — Matt, [127:22–128:02]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [06:46] – Introduction of the topic & why it’s unique for Broadway Breakdown
• [10:34] – Lack of backlash/why people still love the movie
• [15:20] – How Jon & Matt first encountered the movie
• [23:06] – Matt’s first time watching: real-time discoveries of film’s issues
• [37:42] – Detailed plot summary with context and comic asides
• [50:48] – What the original story is, how the film changes (or doesn’t) female agency
• [63:02] – Stockholm syndrome segment
• [76:28] – The barn raising dance and why only the film could pull it off
• [111:45] – Reading of Frank Rich’s iconic review of the 1982 Broadway version
• [126:02] – Discussion: Is there any way to “fix” this property?
• [130:00+] – What makes a good revival; thoughts on current state of musical theater revivals
• [141:08] – How modern audiences and even conservatives might react to the movie’s plot today

---

Tone & Style

Matt and Jon are razor-witted, foul-mouthed, and fiercely opinionated, but their bone-deep love of musical theater is infectious. The episode swings rapidly between deep research, sharp social critique, high-camp humor (lots of sexual innuendo and queering of Golden Age tropes), and bursts of musical geekery, always maintaining an irreverent, insider-y, and queer-informed viewpoint.

---

Final Thoughts

Seven Brides for Seven Brothers is a paradox: a film revered for its athletic choreography and suppressed for its aggressively misogynistic plot, which no amount of revision or stage adaptation seems able to redeem. Matt and Jon’s verdict is that, while the movie holds nostalgic and even queer-camp value for many, its legacy is fraught, its story deeply flawed, and its musical numbers (save for the barn dance) largely forgettable.

As Matt puts it:
"I could appreciate some of it but I could not enjoy all of it." [141:47]

---

Closing Diva

The episode closes with an ode to Audra McDonald, the ultimate Broadway diva, as chosen by Jon for the show’s "Diva of the Day."

---

For listeners:

Join the discussion on the Broadway Breakdown Discord. Share your own takes, barn-raising clips, or production stories in the episode thread!

---

[Episode available at: bwaybreakdown.substack.com ]

Transcript

[A]

Hey guys, it's Matt. Doing a little quick preamble before the episode. I wanted to give you a bit of an update on BroadwayCon. As you know, I am going to be doing an hour long episode at BroadwayCon on July 27th. That is a Saturday. BroadwayCon will be at the Hilton on 6th Avenue. I mistakenly said the Marriott in an earlier episode because that's where it was last year, but it is at the Hilton. And if you don't have tickets but you're thinking about going, I totally suggest it's a lot of fun. And not just, you know, our panel, but there are going to be other panels with Broadway Podcast network and there's going to be meet and greets and there's going to be a whole like, I don't know how to flea market, I guess you would call it. Yeah, flea market and Broadway merch trading and things like that. But I can announce who our guests are going to be for our episode. They are Breakdown favorites Will and Rachel Anderson, otherwise known as the theater lovers, that Instagram account that we all love. As you guys know, Will and Rachel are awesome. They are smart, they funny, they have so much knowledge of Broadway history, but they've never actually done a traditional episode of Broadway Breakdown. They've always done Tony episodes. So this is, you know, dipping their toes in the pool of a traditional Broadway breakdown. So it's going to be exciting to talk with them about that. What show will we be discussing? Well, that's kind of up to you guys. Will and Rachel and I are coming up with four shows that we are super informative of, that we're super passionate about, that we would have no problem talking about on the fly. And we will announce what those four shows are shortly. And once we do, if you are at BroadwayCon, you will get to vote on which show you want us to cover. Now, this isn't going to be a tallying system. This is going to be a choose at random out of a bowl system at the recording, in the moment on the fly. So if there's a specific show that you want to desperately for us to cover, you got to vote for it. You got to have your friends vote for it. You know, put in there's little slips of paper into the bowl. And if you come to the recording, you get to vote a second time. So bring yourself and your friends and vote more times just so that way the show that you want has a better shot of getting picked. We are either going to be recording at 1:15pm that day or at 2:30 it's still being a little not debated, but we wanted 115. That's what we requested. But we then found out that there's going to be a Disney sing along around that same time and there was a bit of concern of like whether we would have to compete with that because I don't think I can compete with Disney. So we're seeing if we can make 2:30 work instead. But Will and Rachel have very justifiably busy schedules, as do I. I'm very busy and important. But we will find out more about that shortly. BPN will release some information, do a big press announcement about that soon. But I'm giving you guys the early exclusive. Also, if you can't make it to BroadwayCon. But there's stuff about any of the shows we announced that you want us to cover. Every day leading up to BroadwayCon, I will have a link, the NGL link, which is the link I use for my anonymous ask me anythings. I will post that on my stories and each day to ask about a specific show of the four that we have. If you want us to talk about something. So let's say one of the shows is A Chorus Line. On day one I'll be like, okay, option one is A Chorus Line. Here's the link. What is something about the show you love? Something you want us to acknowledge? Day two. Oh, Annie or Angels in America, whatever, so on and so forth. But that's it for now. Yeah. So stay tuned for more info on Instagram and on next week's episode before BroadwayCon. And that's it. If you haven't yet, make sure to join the Discord Channel for Broadway Breakdown. The link will be in the description for this episode. Last week we had almost 50 members in the Discord. Now we have over 80, which is amazing. We're well on our way to getting to 100 and it's very exciting. The channel has been awesome. You guys are so passionate and smart and funny and the conversations have been wonderful and I really would love more people to join just because it's a great community. It's only weeks old and it's already a great community. And also, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe. And that's it. Enjoy the episode, guys. Bye. Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This is a continuation of the series problematic question mark shows you're mad at and their possible Redemption. This is. It's a return, but it's like, probably going to be a shortened return. We'll see. I'm. I'm flying by the seat of my pants here. I'm your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And I also want to say before I introduce my guest, some of you have been hearing on recent episodes and on podcasts that I guessed on us talking about the graphics of Zoom when we record on Zoom, and my guests can confirm this with me, that Zoom has decided to have opinions about the episodes as we record them. And so you'll hear us exclaiming sometimes about a thumbs up or a thumbs down or a bubble or a gobbledygook. And it's because Zoom will just say, I liked what you said. I didn't like what you said. So if you hear me and my guest exclaiming anything that sounds out of the ordinary, it's because Zoom has made itself known. So please welcome. After I just said that, after I just said that my works, my screen exploded with fireworks. Zoom was like, we enjoy being recognized. Thank you so much. And they also recognized that I, I. And I just got a thumbs up. Recognize that I am iconic. I am the moment. The moment is me. So please welcome my guest. He's been on before. You've heard me on his podcast, Life's put a song. He's opinionated, but the opinions are like sorbet. And for that, we love it. It's very light, very sweet, not big on the calories. Please welcome back John Riley. Hi, John.

[B]

Hi. I think today, though, it's not going to be the John Riley survey special. No, it's going to be. It's going to be the entree. We're going to have. Yeah, you're going to have a five course meal.

[A]

It's not a moose this time.

[B]

It's not an amuse bouche. No, John.

[A]

John stands by all of his opinions for this one. So, John, what material are we covering today?

[B]

We're here to talk about the. Hold on, let me get the year. The 1954 movie, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers.

[A]

Yes. This is the only time in the history of Broadway Breakdown that we have exclusively covered a movie. We will talk about the stage show as well, because they are connected and that's more sort of its legacy in the Broadway community, I suppose. But no one really talks about the stage version. They talk about the movie and the movie. And the movie has a very large shadow in musical theater and is A pretty beloved piece. So what's interesting about this one, Jan? And then we'll get into the details.

[B]

Hold on one sec. I gotta. We gotta go back to talking about Zoom for a hot second. Because before we even started recording, we were, like, making fun of me, and Zoom agreed with us. See, it agrees. And now I think Zub is trying.

[A]

To flirt with you.

[B]

Like, it's giving you so many thumbs up. And then that fireworks happened, and I was just like, we're done. I'm interrupting you in Zoom for a second.

[A]

I don't know what's going on right now, because between Zoom and all the quote unquote straight bros at the gym, like, people just keep talking to me, and I don't know why, because it's.

[B]

Because you are the Met Koplik, I.

[A]

Am the Matt complex. Maybe at this point, I've gone from the least famous to the second least famous and thus people anymore.

[B]

You and Kathy Griffin are like Ryan in the D list.

[A]

Yeah, well, we're writing something. Yeah. Something with a D.

[B]

Speaking of writing.

[A]

D, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers.

[B]

So I'm going to. I have a. I have a thesis statement for. For this episode. I'm going to be very angry, and.

[A]

Then I'm going to be a little.

[B]

Horny, and then I'm going to be very angry again.

[A]

So I think that's correct.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, you're right.

[A]

So this is an interesting one in terms of just, like, covering problematic, right? Because most of the shows that we covered for this series were shows that were initially critically acclaimed. Maybe not all of them were huge commercial successes like the Prom, but, like, got strong reviews, you know, did well, maybe at the Tonys or. Or what. What have you. And it was over time that there became a new narrative about those shows of, like, oh, this is actually a problem with it. Oh, that makes it problematic. And then it's been just a constant battle back and forth of, like, you know, is it actually problematic or are you misunderstanding this thing? Did you see a bad production? Is the movie version bad? Yada, yada, yada.

[B]

Did you not pick up on the main plot of this movie?

[A]

Yeah, well, and. And John, as you know, because I've been on your podcast many a time, and as my listeners know, I do try to find the nuance in things. I don't like to sort of just boldly label things as whatever. And these things aren't created in a vacuum. Art is always both a response and a reaction to the time that it's made in. It's A little different for Hollywood musicals of the 1940s and 50s, because those.

[B]

Are the Wild west with those musicals, by the way.

[A]

Well, they're a response in some ways to the Hays Code, censorship, but also, like, what they consider hardcore American Christian values. But then also because they live in their own universe, they. There's a lot of, yeah, as you said, Wild west politics in them. And some of them stand the test of time, like Singing in the Rain. Some of them are a little trickier, but I do think hold up in their own way, like Gigi. And then there are movies like Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. And what makes this one different from the rest of the series, John, is that there isn't a major public backlash about this movie. When I shared on Instagram that we were covering this, the majority of the responses were, I love this movie.

[B]

Right. And. And even when I was rewatching it and I was telling people, they're like, oh, that didn't age well. And I really looked them and I went, it wasn't good. From the beginning, like, no matter if it's 1860s, when I believe that this is supposed to be taking place, or if it's 1954 or if it's today, 2024, it was never a good idea. They should have been like, maybe not this one.

[A]

So, like, it's. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. What's crazy, what is absolutely crazy is that this movie came out in 1954 and this is the year of, you know, Sabrina and I think on the Waterfront was. Was this year at the Oscars, which, by the way, I want to emphasize, this movie was in the top 10 highest grossing films of the year. It was a nominee for best Picture at the Oscars.

[B]

That's super embarrassing.

[A]

It. It spawned two separate TV shows, both failed TV shows, but TV shows nonetheless. It had. I didn'.

[B]

There were TV shows about this.

[A]

Yep. One was something like. There was one that's a different title.

[B]

And Five Brides for Five Brothers.

[A]

Here. Here Come the Brides is what it was called.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which ran for two seasons. And they said, oh, it was inspired by Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, but it's not, like, directly based off of it. And then they actually had a. A series called Seven Brides for Seven Brothers in 1982, and that ran for, like, half of a season, but launched two different TV shows, had two different remakes. A Bollywood remake, I think a German remake or Swedish remake, something like that.

[B]

And then I would love to watch the Bollywood remake because, you know that they're gonna be even wilder than this one.

[A]

The only thing it's missing is Katherine McPhee. Do you remember that dream sequence in Smash?

[B]

I tried a black where she's at.

[A]

An Indian restaurant with her Indian boyfriend and she's like having a fantasy about it all and she leads a Bollywood number because that was smashed. And we all said, second season, please.

[B]

Well, we needed Hit List. We needed Hit List.

[A]

We needed. Andy Mienta is just fucking eating dust. We needed By a car like a little bitch.

[B]

We needed Kathy McPhee's character to leave a Broadway show to go do an off Broadway non union show.

[A]

Like, then that what is comes back, but that just comes back to Broadway anyway.

[B]

But then, yeah, gets. Gets greenlit automatically to Broadway because that's how it happens.

[A]

Well, again, to be fair, it's because Andy Mantis wasn't looking both ways. Got hit by a car, and then his show went to Broadway.

[B]

You know, nothing like Jonathan Larson's storyline or anything like that.

[A]

Like, except John Larson died because he was misdiagnosed with a heart aneurysm. Whereas.

[B]

Right, but it was a sim. It's.

[A]

But like, no, I don't. But that's. Things like, that's the narrative they want. And I'm sitting there going like, Jonathan Larson was failed by this system. Andy Mienta simply didn't look where he was going because he was so upset by Jeremy Jordan, which we've all been there. But, like, no matter how upset that man makes me, I know where to look when I'm crossing the street. My grandmother has been hit by too many cabs and survived for me to not look where I'm walking. You know what I mean?

[B]

Did I almost get hit by a bike yesterday walking to work? Yes, I did. And do I care? No.

[A]

Well, in your defense, you were distracted because you were thinking about Seven Brides for Seven Brothers.

[B]

Oh, God, yes. Yes, was.

[A]

So, John, you have a podcast that's all about movie musicals. I don't really cover movie musicals all that much.

[B]

And Zoom agrees with you. And like, I think Zoom actually does like my podcast. And it's one of my. One of my tens of listeners. See? And it agrees. It gives it a thumbs up.

[A]

Hey, listen, it's dozens of listeners when I'm on.

[B]

You're right, you're right. Because all your. Your massive fans come over to me and they're like, oh, Matt's on another podcast. Let's listen. It's true. Every.

[A]

I have legions of people who will listen to me talk about anything and for that, I'm a monster. So what was your introduction to Seven Brides or Seven Brothers?

[B]

I know I watched this as a kid. Like, it was one of those movies. I feel like my. My parents would watch it because there's. There's. There's a whole list of movies of, like, older musical movies that I would watch. Greece was like, my go to. Surprisingly, I turned out gay. And, you know, we would. It was in, like, the rotation of, like, old Hollywood, classic Hollywood movies that we would watch, because it is. Because, you know, the barn raising scene. And that's really all we're gonna talk about, because the rest of the movie is terrible.

[A]

Well, it's not that the rest of the movie is terrible. It's just that the rest of the movie is wild.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like. Like, to. To say that it's terrible is to imply that, like, the terrible bad. Like, they're like, you. There are things to watch and be like, I get why people would like this, but, like, how much of our brain are we turning off?

[B]

Well, because I feel like a lot of people forget about the rest of the movie. Except for the barn dance.

[A]

That's the. Everyone thinks about the dancing. And that number in particular.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because even the other. The other choreography in the movie, it's not much. Isn't much. And it's. And, like, they literally, like, climaxed during the bar racing scene. And then there's still another, like, what, half hour, 40 minutes of the movie after that, and you're like.

[A]

Like a full hour after that movie. Yeah, the bar raising. So, yeah. Okay, so continue with how. How you were introduced to this, because then I'll talk about how I got introduced to this.

[B]

Oh. So, yeah, it was probably my parents who introduced it to me. And then years later, when I started my Life's Better Song podcast, we did it as episode seven. Because I'm stupid like that.

[A]

Yeah, Well, I mean, listen, in terms of cultural significance, the National Registry preserved this movie in the early 2000s because it was culturally significant. And I think.

[B]

Did they watch it, like, honestly, that's that.

[A]

Well, so that's the thing is, like, this movie was such a huge hit and has remained very beloved. And the stage musical, which everyone agrees is incredibly inferior because, like, they can't do the barn raising dance on stage because that choreography is bonkers. You can't do that eight times a week and was never meant to be done eight times a week. It was meant to be shot once and then never done again.

[B]

So.

[A]

No. So no one can do that. Craft. But the thing about the stage show is, no matter where it goes, as long as it's not Broadway, it does well. Like that show kind of saved Playhouse for a minute. It's had national tours that have done really well. It did really well for good speed.

[B]

It's done got a bunch of regional theaters. Yeah. I'm remembering. It's been a few years since I actually looked into this and in the early days, I did research. I actually did research and everything like that. So I remember all of this. And then there was another podcast called My Favorite Flop which talked about flops and they covered the musical of this. I wish there's some listeners if there's some video of a. Of a state of the stage version with the barn raising scene, just like send it our way because I would love to see how they did it.

[A]

Well, I don't think anyone ever does it like the movie again, because you really can't.

[B]

Well, that's fine. I just want to watch hot men doing dance. Doing some dance.

[A]

Doing some dance.

[B]

Doing some dancing.

[A]

But. Yeah, but I mean, that's sort of the thing of. And I'll talk about the Broadway incarnation later because I want to fully read Frank Rich's review of it because it's. It's one of those pans. It's. It's not a terribly long review, but it's very specific. And he also. Frank Rich agrees with us about the movie. He's a little kinder than I think we're going to be, but his overall feelings are similar of like, the movie was never great to begin with. The songs are sort of mediocre at best in the movie. It's really just about like the dancing in the movie and specifically that one number and.

[B]

And Keel's sexy, sexy voice. Yeah, well, yeah.

[A]

And I think he will dubbed in it too.

[B]

I'm able to disassociate the characters from the actors in this.

[A]

You got it. Because the actors are hot.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yes. Especially the brothers.

[A]

There are like three or four brothers that I was just like. Yeah, no, I. I'd stay in that house too and. And never want to go home.

[B]

Huh. I would. I would be wet like one of the brides with the Stockholm syndrome.

[A]

Yeah, well, so I was actually thinking about that on my watching of this movie because I get really annoyed when people make the joke of Belle and Beauty and the Beast having stock.

[B]

I was about to literally say the same thing because. Because you watch that scene. Are we. We're just going to jump into it.

[A]

I want to get to my. To my.

[B]

Oh, sorry, sorry.

[A]

But remember what the scene you want to talk about?

[B]

Pin pin. Pinpin. Yes.

[A]

Well, so, like, Lindsay Ellis, who was an amazing YouTube vlogger, doesn't do it anymore. She has. She has a whole other career now. But she has a great video about the animated Beauty and the Beast breaking down why Belle doesn't have Stockholm syndrome. And it's a really dumb thing to say because it shows that you don't actually know what Stockholm syndrome is. You just, like, know the basic premise of it, and you never actually watched the mo. Movie. And she breaks down very clearly and, like, yeah, no, it's. She doesn't have it. But watching this movie, I was like, they.

[B]

These women don't do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Nobody talks about the Stockholm in this.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It is. It is. I mean, I wouldn't say it's, like, exactly Stockholm syndrome, but it is a kissing cousin to it for. With. For all of the women. And just because Millie as a character is perhaps the most outspoken, and she is, like, a very tough gal, it doesn't negate the fact that, like, she bends to Adam's will a lot. She apologizes to him a lot for, like, speaking her mind. And I'm like, girl, he tricked you. You married him after three seconds. He didn't tell you about his brothers. He didn't tell you about his living situation. Tell you. Damn. Didn't tell you what he expected out of you. So, like, you're like, you get in that house, and you realize in five minutes, oh, you want a cleaning woman, you want to cook, and you want someone who, you know, for you to come in daily so you can eventually make a baby and to take care of. Of your brothers. And. And then she, like, gets mad at him. Rightfully so. And then that night, she's like, I'm sorry. I guess you should come inside. I was like, well, he's gonna. Because you're gonna have a baby later. But also. But also, I'm just like, like, what the are we doing here? Let her be angry. She's right to be angry.

[B]

Yeah. And. Yeah. Yeah, this movie's on the men's side completely.

[A]

Very much so.

[B]

They're like, what?

[A]

Like, and what? We. We kidnapped these six other women because we. The only way for us to marry them. And again, they're rightfully traumatized. They're so.

[B]

So. Okay. Yes. We're getting too angry, too fat or too hot. Too fast.

[A]

Way too hot. Way too fast. Coming in hot. Coming in hot. So, fun fact, ladies and germs, as we all know. I, I watch so much, I read so much. I, I've been, you know.

[B]

You can read.

[A]

Zoom, zoom. Really like that.

[B]

Zoom. Thank you. Zoom.

[A]

Yeah, a little bit. I can read a little bit. Usually I can just read for filth.

[B]

But there we go.

[A]

Yes. We're talking, we're talking about a four year old who was watching wizard of Oz and Singing in the Rain on, on the reg. And I had that VHS compilation that's Dancing, which was a spin off of that's Entertainment. So it was just, you know, constant clips of all these dances from, from movies. And that's actually, that was the video that got me into the Red Shoes because they had a whole four minute segment on the Red Shoes. There was a bit on Seven Brides for Seven Brothers and that was all I had ever seen of the movie or heard of the movie until this week. I had never seen this first time, never saw this movie until this week.

[B]

So you knew that it was problematic before. Like you heard about it.

[A]

I didn't know the premise. I had only heard that it was a classic, that it was beloved, and that it hadn't aged well because of, you know, maybe a little old fashioned gender norms and, and like marital stuff. But that's all I knew. I was like, oh, I guess like it's very Ozzy and Harriet. You know, it's just like very 1950s domesticity kind of thing. Like that's, I assumed that's where it was coming from.

[B]

Oh my goodness, Matt. So this is your first time seeing it start, start to finish.

[A]

So. And I, and I watched it twice. I watched it with my mom a few days ago and I asked her like, what's your experience? She goes, oh, they used to make us watch it every summer at camp because it was just, it was just like a go to. And all she really remembered was the barn raising number. She kind of blocked everything else out. So we watched it. Yeah, we watched it, I think Thursday or Friday. Friday.

[B]

Okay, Thursday.

[A]

We watched it Thursday and. No, Friday. We watched it Friday and.

[B]

Oh, I watched it Friday.

[A]

Yeah, I watched it Friday with her. And from like the jump, we both were like, is this movie for real with the. The moment Howard? How Howard Keel is singing Bless her Beautiful Hyde. My mom was like, I'm out. She was, I, she's like, I'm gonna hate the rest of this. And I didn't know. I did not know about the kidnapping. I did not know about the blatant misogyny. I did not know about The. The one thing I also didn't know is how horny this movie is. And that was a pleasant surprise.

[B]

It's 1950s horny, though, so, yeah, it's horny. But it's still like, we gotta.

[A]

Julie Newmar. When Julie Newmar in the second half of the movie is asking the girls, like, because they're staying. The. The women that the brothers have kidnapped. And then Jane Powell is kicking the brothers out. She's like, the women will stay in the house because you're all a bunch of criminals and animals. So the women are sleeping in the bedroom of the brothers. And it's. It's basically. The whole first half of the movie is basically Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. If the dwarves were really hot woodsmen. And. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, if. If you were just like, how about.

[B]

A sex party maybe, possibly, where Jane Powell not only has to, like, cook, clean, and, like, be the housewife to all these men, but then she's like, you guys, I'm gonna teach you how to be human. So.

[A]

Yeah, well, yes, yes, yes and no. Because then there's still the Howard Keel Adam of it all, who might be one of the biggest douches in all of cinema.

[B]

Well, yeah, but, like, she's. She's teaching the other six to be like, no, no, you can't be animals. You have to be human. Yes. You have to learn how to talk to people. You have to compliment women. You can't.

[A]

Do you think this is where Jody Foster got the idea for the movie Nell, about a woman living out in the woods and has to come into society and learn how to be a person?

[B]

I would. Yeah, probably. I mean, this. But, like, this is bad.

[A]

No, this is bad.

[B]

Bad.

[A]

So, okay, we watch it and I'm. I'm making notes. I did not know about the kidnapping plot. I did not know about any of that. So I'm just. My mind is getting thrown. There's also a line where. So I can't. I can't. I can't. I rewatched it. I watched. I rewatched the first half of it last night when I came home after seeing my friend Elena in Water for Elephants. And I ended up falling asleep halfway through because it was like one in the morning. And so I closed it, went to bed, woke up this morning and finished the second half just because. Well, just because I was like, I want to make sure that I'm not misremembering stuff. I want to make sure that I'm not coming in super hot now that I know what to expect. Like, how do I see it with. With. No, no longer with fresh eyes. But I know what to expect now. And it made me angrier because there were moments when it was. When, again, things were like, Jane Powell, as Millie is speaking her mind and like, yes, movie, yes. Like, that was a bad thing that happened, but then the movie still rewards the bad behavior anyway. And I'm like, what are we doing here? Right. Crazy is. So this movie, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, it is based off of a short story called the Sabin Women. I want to get the exact name of the author correct.

[B]

I'm sorry to be singing, but that. They turn that into a whole goddamn number. But they're talking instead of saying, is it Sabin?

[A]

So it's. Yeah. So the original story that it's based off of is called the Sabin Women by Stephen Vincent Benet, who was, I'm assuming, French Canadian. And that, in turn, was. And that was, I think, written in the 1920s. And that, in turn, was a sort of modern adaptation of the Roman legend, the rape of the Sabine Women. And Sabine is written S, A B I N E. And.

[B]

Oh, and he's writing S O B B I N G. Sobbing S O.

[A]

B B I N. Yes, he is. Yes.

[B]

Sobbing. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

The crying.

[B]

Yes. Okay, well.

[A]

And so what, It's. It's a play on words because it's both how, you know, rural would read Sabine, they would go, oh, the Sabin.

[B]

Which is what they did in the movie.

[A]

Exactly. But then also, because, yeah, like, they're talking about the Roman legend, but they're not calling them the Sabine women. They're calling them the Sabin women. And then also, like, yes, the women are crying when they get kidnapped and taken to this remote farm up in the mountain. And in the. So, okay, the. The short story was optioned by Joshua Logan, who wrote. Who directed Picnic, and directed and co wrote the original South Pacific. And, like, Joshua Logan was known for having plays and musicals where men would be shirtless a lot. So in a weird way, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers is a very good property for him. But. Okay, but those op. But those stage rights ended up dropping. So he has actually nothing to do with this movie.

[B]

He's just.

[A]

You can understand why he would be attracted to it. He's like seven men in a hut in the forest. And they're horny.

[B]

Sounds like a job and whatever. But, like, they're in the. They're gonna be chopping wood. They have a farm. Yes.

[A]

Hard men being hard. Sounds like A job for Logan like that.

[B]

Is that shirtless, glistening chests. Yes.

[A]

It's like a running joke with Broadway nerds who know about, like, Broadway history. If you see photos of a Broadway musical from, like, or any Broadway show From, like, the 1940s through the, like, early 1960s, and there are, like, more than four shirtless men, you're like, is John. Is Joshua Logan on the production team for this? And, like, half the time he is, but. So the stage rights drop, and MGM ends up picking them up. And they worked on this as a. I know, right? And they work on this as a. As a film project with Stanley Donen, as a musical.

[B]

And they, like King, by the way, he is the king of, like, MGM musical movies or just musical movies of this time.

[A]

Yeah, he's done a bunch. And, like, the. The big one is Singing in the Rain. He also did one of my favorite non Hitchcock movies, Charade, which, if you haven't seen Charade, Audrey Hepburn, Cary Grant in Paris, Walter Matthau. It's funny, it's sexy, it's scary. Watch it. Watch it yesterday. It's amazing. It's considered the best Hitchcock movie that Hitchcock never made it. Oh, God, it's so good.

[B]

Anyway, interesting. You have me sold.

[A]

You're. You're very welcome. If anything good came out of watching Seven Brides or Seven Brothers again, it was that.

[B]

I'm gonna watch Charade.

[A]

Yeah, you're gonna watch Charade, and you're gonna love it.

[B]

Great. So the.

[A]

They're writing the script, they're coming up with the songs, and they. They get Michael Kidd. They get. They get the same songwriting team from the musical Lil Abner, which was a huge hit at the time, but has never been done since. And they're.

[B]

That's another one I got really angry at, by the way. The movie.

[A]

Yeah, well, I. Familiar with Lil Abner all that well. I've heard the score once or twice, did not care for it, and there are conflicting reports from people now of, like, how good Lil Abner actually is. So, you know, it's.

[B]

Yeah, it was another instance when. When I did my. My podcast. Life's about a song. Sorry. I'm here to plug my podcast. I need listeners where I was. I came at it very strong and angry, and my guests were both like, what? We love this one. I'm like, oh, we're.

[A]

I know. Well, that's. That's the. That's the thing about movies and musicals from the 40s and 50s is there are. I think there are a good number that do hold up. You just like, have to maybe be smart for a second and not like, take it at face value. And there are also a lot of bad 50s movies, versions of those shows. Like, I've been very vocal about how like, the majority of the Rodgers and Hammerstein movie versions are actually kind of terrible because they're just so surface level and the Hays Code has to censor so much. But. But sometimes they also just like, don't hold up. And like, stopped holding up a full decade after they came out. But, you know, we digress. A lot of people have their, like, sick day movies, the movies they watched when they were sick as a kid. And so there's like a love in their heart of, you know, when I was 7 and home from school. Exactly.

[B]

Like, like this one as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where but like all you remember is the barn raising scene and the colors.

[A]

And the horniness and the.

[B]

Well, in that order. Yes. Because you. Because then you're like, oh, they're all gay with their, with their pride shirts.

[A]

Yeah. No, this is very much a movie that isn't an ally. But they're doing so much on the surface level. Like, if, if Pride Weekend was a movie, it would be this movie. Because on the surface level, they're doing so much for the gays. But if you actually stop and pay attention, like, oh, you don't care about the gays at all.

[B]

Yeah, you're, you're, you're the major corporations who are like, hi, gay. Yeah, on, on June 1st. And as soon as the clock strikes to July 1st, you're just like straight man only.

[A]

Yeah, there's that, yeah, there's that Brandon Rogers video about CEOs during Pride Month. And it's his, it's his female CEO character just like for two minutes being like, hey, fag. The choice to be gay is the choice to slay. And I love gay people. Try to put a stopper in my popper, like trying to sell all these products, selling all the products, not knowing anything about the queer community. They keep adding letters, I keep adding tolerance. And then her assistant is like, oh, ma', am, it's. It's midnight. He goes, why would I care if it's midnight? He goes, well, it's July 1st. She's like, get all this gay shit out of here. Get it out of here.

[B]

Get out of. Take out the rainbow. No more rainbows. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And, and that's, that's. For me, that Seven Brides was like, we're gonna give you hot, hot men dancing up a horny storm. With flaming red hair, total flamers in Pride shirts. You know, tiny women, horny as well. But you don't get to be a part of any of it. The narrative with this. With this movie is that they talk about how the studio kept cutting the budget because they were throwing all their money to Brigadoon, which is why everything in Seven Brides or Seven Brothers is pretty much on a soundstage. It was like it was going to be on location.

[B]

There's that. There's that one song at the end when it becomes spring again, that I think that they're actually outside.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because there's moments where you're like. I don't see a painted backdrop. Yeah.

[A]

Like when Jane Powell sings her first song about, like, the beautiful day or whatever the it is. That is a soundstage.

[B]

You can see a thousand percent.

[A]

Yeah, there are. There are pockets where they are truly outside. But it's. I would say it's 80 of soundstage. But the. The story goes is that it was supposed to be like, you know, 80 real locations. And the budget just kept getting cut. And so.

[B]

Oh, poor the.

[A]

Well, so it's one of those, like. Oh, we overcame it because the movie was a big hit and it's had this big cultural legacy. And if I liked the movie, I would be like, see how amazing that is when, like, you have all these limitations, but you succeed anyway. But so one of the things that was troubling them, and I bring this all up because the original screenplay was by Albert Hackett and Francis Goodrich, and they got fired because they. They couldn't make the story work and Stanley Donen wasn't getting along with them. So they bring in Dorothy Kingsley, who had a reputation for fixing scripts. She wrote a couple of her own. I think she wrote Angels in the Outfield. She was also an uber Catholic, so she was very much about, like, hardcore Jesus values. This is also, I want to say, by the way, a woman who. I believe she wrote the first draft of the movie version of Valley of the Dolls.

[B]

What?

[A]

Which was 12 years after this movie. 14. 12 or 13 years after.

[B]

Yeah, she is. I'm on her IMDb right now.

[A]

I don't think she wrote the final draft, but I think she sort of got the. The structure in. But also Dorothy Kingsley, the woman who loves Jesus, who wrote Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. You're gonna have her adapt Valley of the Dolls? What. What are we doing here, John, is what I want to ask you.

[B]

You know what? A job's a job.

[A]

Some days a girl's got to pay a mortgage. Not. I mean, yeah, I know. I understand why she would take it. She would want the money. I'm saying, as a studio, why would you approach Dorothy Kingsley? It's like asking Nicholas sparks to adapt 50 shades of gray.

[B]

Although now I want that. I really do. I really want. I want him. I want to see him on some sort of talk show or something. Being like. So I had to read this piece of book and turn it into a movie.

[A]

Like the inverse of that is Brett Easton Ellis adapting Bambi. Like the dude who wrote American Psycho.

[B]

You know, it's just why I want this now. You're giving me better options in this movie, by the way.

[A]

Yeah, you're like woman writer. This movie about woman come right script about woman. And Dorothy Kingsley's like, as long as there's Jesus. And they went, whatever you want. But so I say all this because I'm reading this interview with Kingsley and my research and my four hour research, by the way, this is the most unprepared I've ever been for an episode of, of the podcast, ever.

[B]

Listen, you're putting as much energy into this as like, this movie gave positive light to everything.

[A]

Fantastic. So Kingsley was saying in an interview, she goes, well, the problem is that in the original story, the woman has no agency. She does nothing. It' all the husband's plot to like kidnap the women. Like, he's the one who's encouraging the men. So we really had to fix that. We had to make sure that, like, Millie was truly a part of the plot. Now, before we recorded this, after I finished the movie, I did read the short story, John, as well as, you know, watching the movie twice in. In 48 hours.

[B]

I am so sorry.

[A]

And I.

[B]

To yourself.

[A]

Well, I don't want to say don't believe women, but Dorothy Kingsley is. Alex is absolutely wrong. She is so incorrect about both what the original story is and what she did. Because the original story.

[B]

So the seven women story.

[A]

Yeah, the sobbing woman story was first of all the movie. Before we get. Actually. Sorry all over the place before we get to any of that. John. Yes, to my uncultured fucks. Okay, can you tell them what the plot of Seven Brides for Seven Brothers is? Okay, so start with Millie.

[B]

So we open with Adam going to town, basically singing the 1950s version of Baby Got Back. And he runs into Millie, who's a tough broad, who's a. A cook.

[A]

Question mark in the short story. She's basically an indentured servant. Like she's. They call her like the Second, like the next door neighbor to a slave.

[B]

She, she works at like a bar.

[A]

Yeah, she works, she works at a, at a bar, at the saloon.

[B]

As the cook.

[A]

As the cook and housekeeper. And like she does, she's sort of like the one like all in one.

[B]

Deal she does 1850s or 1860s Oregon by the way. It should have set, I should have said that at the top. But he runs into Millie and he's horny for her because she's a tough broad and everything. They get married, knowing each other for 10 seconds and then he kind of tricks her. And by kind of, I mean he really does trick her into like we said earlier, being a housewife and sort of mother for his six unruly brothers. She in turn tries to teach them manners and in the end, Adam and his. And his six brothers decided to kidnap women.

[A]

Yeah. Well, so what happens is that Adam come. Adam, I'm cutting a lot out, but we, well, Adam and his six brothers live in this farm like outside of town. It's like a good 12 miles outside of town. So they're, you know, Adam comes in to trade for stuff, you know, get goods to cook with and all this other, all these things. So like the whole point is that he and his brothers very much are isolated from the rest of society.

[B]

And they have a reputation as well.

[A]

Yeah, they've got a reputation for being like tough and, and unruly and no one really likes them.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the other thing is that we hear constantly how this is a more male populated town than women populated town. So they say like all the women basically have their pickings of who they could marry because there's like seven men for every woman, like in terms of the ratio. So everyone's like, all the men are just like fighting over each other to find someone. And Adam comes in at the top of the movie being like, I'm going to get a wife today. Literally he's like, today I'm getting away today.

[B]

Today's the day that I'm getting that I'm getting married.

[A]

Yeah. 20 familia. Also, because he like, he's, he wants someone who's pretty, but he doesn't like super care about that. He more cares about like can she work? And he sees Millie chopping wood. He's like, that can work.

[B]

Right. But then also she holds her own against the other men in town when she's serving them the rule thing. Yeah. And so he's, he, he pops a woody for her. Haha.

[A]

And then so that with the brothers, you know, Millie Claims later on in the movie, she falls in love with Adam on site. And that's ultimately why she says yes, because she also says, I've been proposed to before, and I thought about it, and every time I thought about it, it gave me a sinking feelings. And when you proposed, I didn't get that. So I'm gonna marry you.

[B]

I'm like, it's the same day they get married. Yes.

[A]

Yep. Absolutely. No, they get like. It's the same afternoon.

[B]

It's. Yeah. Okay.

[A]

It doesn't take very long.

[B]

This time in this movie is weird because you have this whole opening is in a day, and then I don't know when the barn raising scene is, but then once they kidnap the women that they dance with at the barn and fall in love with. It's snowing. And they keep talking about how the snow is forever in at this point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. And then also, she's preg. She's preggers.

[A]

But it's pregnant.

[B]

Yeah, but, like, she still has a snatched waist. I don't know what's going on.

[A]

Well, that's not. That has nothing to do with the weather. That has to do with the 1950s movies.

[B]

Yeah, but. And. And then she has the baby, and it's spring, and everyone is. And then they get married.

[A]

So. So the kidnapping thing, though. So Millie. Millie goes back with Adam to his house. She also says a line that I put on Instagram. I was like, no woman in the history of time has ever said this. When she's like, oh, I. I don't have any clothes but the one I'm wearing. And Adam's like, oh, well, if you go, have my mother. He goes like, there's all my mother's clothes. He's like, if you know how to sew. I mean, I'm saying this a lot nicer than he says it, but he's basically like, if you know how to sew and alter, like, you can use. You can alter her clothes. And she goes, oh. She goes, oh, I'd like that. I like to wear something your mother wore. It's like a woman. Unless it's like. Unless it is jewelry worth millions of dollars. No woman has ever said that. But.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So she gets there and realizes that the brothers are there because he never told her that he lived with his brothers. He never told her, like, the state of the house and exactly what he expected of her as a wife and.

[B]

How much they act like animals.

[A]

Because she thinks, like, oh, I'm going from being a servant at this inn. And, like, you know, not really having any prospects to being a married woman now. Like, I'll be respected in the community now, and I. I'll only have to serve one person. And he's like, yeah, about that, so.

[B]

And she has a whole goddamn song singing about how happy she is to be married and how she's looking forward to this next chapter in her life. And he's standing behind her this whole time being like, oh, I'm not gonna tell you about my brothers just yet. Then.

[A]

Yeah. Rather than be like, hey, so, pretty song, but I should probably tell you something. He's like, I'm gonna let you finish, and then just sort of see for yourself, you know, Actions speak louder than words.

[B]

P. S. Matt, which do you prefer, Howard Keel with the beard or Howard Keel with just the mustache? I prefer the beard, personally.

[A]

I prefer the beard too. And there's one other brother I prefer with the beard. Everyone else clean shaven. I was like, yeah, no, you can stay.

[B]

But yeah, yeah, yeah, because when. Because when she goes and hangs and starts to live with the brothers, she gives them all a makeover because there is the. There's The. The barn raising scene that we are. We've been teasing you about.

[A]

The makeover is just her being like, you need to shower.

[B]

That's what you need to shower. Put on some. Put on your rainbow shirts. Everyone. Well, it's not. Everyone's wearing a rainbow shirt. Every brother. The six brothers have a corresponding color in the rainbow, except for. And then Howard Keel wears a green shirt as well. And I'm like, like, give him a different color. He's out. He's not.

[A]

They're all just like basic bold colors. It's very, you know, they want to give each brother an identity of some sort without actually writing one for them. But.

[B]

And what's interesting too, is that some of them have, like a little print on them. So when you do, like, get a little close ups, you can be like, oh, it's not just a solid yellow shirt that you're wearing. Whatever brother you are, it has a check pattern or something. You know, it's. That's very interesting.

[A]

The ones that have patterns on their shirts just means that they're open to butt stuff. That's all that means.

[B]

That's true. Yeah, it's.

[A]

It's. It's Walmart language. But we. Sorry, we're beating around the bush because I want to. I want to get to the whole point of this kidnapping thing. Millie, yes. She teaches the brothers, like, how to be pleasant, how to be gentlemanly. Because she whips them up into basically being obedient to her immediately. She. She washes their clothes. She makes them bathe and shave and gives them food and like, really good food. And I got them how to, like, say grace and like, have manners. And so when they're in town, they don't know how to act around women, so she teaches them. Over the course of like a month or two, we find out then it's the barn raising scene where they are doing their best to be gentlemanly and the women are super into them, but the men in town are like, fudge these guys and start beating the shit out of them. So the brothers beat the shit out of them back.

[B]

Well, because now they. Now that they had the. The like, she's. All that moment where they come in and now, now they're hot and they're respectable and the women are horny for.

[A]

Them because they were always hot. It's just that the, like, the beards are off, the glasses are off, and the women are like, oh, hello.

[B]

And. And they took a bath.

[A]

And they took a bath. Yeah.

[B]

And. And now they're wear. And they're wearing these brightly colored shirts because they stick out. I mean, I get it, it's a movie. We want our leads to stick out and everything, but they super stick out.

[A]

In this because no other men in town wear colors. All the other men are wearing black, gray and white. Like it's a. It's very on purpose that they do this. And it's a very much a 1950s choice. And it's the world of musicals. We let that go.

[B]

I also, I. I have one more point. I'm sorry about this scene.

[A]

You've never had a point in your life.

[B]

I have a point about this that I said on my podcast. I remember talking about it, and I'm going to talk about it on here. I got so mad at the color choices for this scene because musical theater rules, right? You have. It's either you're in complementary colors with your partner or you're in the same color. And when the, when the potential bride and the brothers, like, start dancing, I'm like, none of this makes sense. None of costume wise. None of this makes sense. You will be the same. Be the same color or be different colors or something. Like, because the women are also in a rainbow of dresses, but in pastel colors.

[A]

Yeah. So I don't necessarily find the movie aesthetically gorgeous. I don't find it aesthetically unpleasant. But it's like there are some movies like An American In Paris or Red Shoes, where I just go, oh, God, I want to, like, just live in this frame.

[B]

Oh, of course. But still, like, we're. This is. This is golden age musicals. Like, there. There are that. Follow the costume rules, please. Thank you very much. Irene wasn't part of it, I think.

[A]

I. Sorry. We're, like, 20 minutes away from where my original point was talking about Dorothy Kingsley saying the main female role had no agency in the original story. And so we wanted to alter that. And that's what makes the movie version work, right?

[B]

No, no, no, because.

[A]

No, because, because, because, because the whole point of this barn raising scene is that the. Is that the brothers find their female matches and, like, they all fall in love on site. Everyone falls in love on site in this movie. And ultimately, the. The. The. The barn raising element of the. Of the movie because it's. There's the dance number, and then there's them actually, like, raising the barn.

[B]

The barn.

[A]

Yeah. And that all sort of going to pot. Because all the men in town hate the brothers so much, especially now that they're cleaned up and the women like them. They're just, like, really out to get them. And so the brothers regress because Adam, the douchebag of all douchebags, is like, forget when Millie ever told you, like, listen to me. Stop being like. Whereas Millie's like, you should learn to be intuitive and sensitive and empathetic. And Adam's like, that's all dumb. You need to use your fists. And. And they're men. He's like, we're men. We're not gay. It, like, we just happen to look gay. Punch these men with your fists. You know, you're. Knock out your teeth if you have to, but so they go back to the farm after that, and. And some time passes and all the brothers are really depressed because they're in love, and they know that they can't be with the women they're in love with. And when one brother tells Millie, oh, I'm gonna leave soon. And Millie goes to Adam and she's like, the brothers are all depressed. Like, Benjamin's gonna leave. If Benjamin leaves, they're all gonna leave. She's like, we have to do something about this. She thinks like, hey, let's, like, bring them into town to, like, court the women. Adam's like, hey, I was reading this thing in. In Millie's book about these sobbing women about the Romans who stole these women. He's like, y' all should do that. And he's like, oh, yeah.

[B]

And then. And let's let's. Let's. Let's hatch this plan in a musical number.

[A]

Yep. And I'll. And I'll drive into town. We'll do it. They have a whole kidnapping sequence. They bring. They bring them back. They cause an avalanche so that way no one from town can get to the farm until spring when the snow melts. And so it's like a solid five months of the women being there. And at first, like, they're all terribly traumatized and upset. And Millie's like, you all. You're all animals. You go sleep in the barn. The women are gonna sleep in the house. And then over time, the women, like, start to warm up to the brothers again. Like, they go back to how they felt before they got kidnapped. Of like, oh, yeah, that's right. I forgot. You make me very horny and I want to marry you. I say all of this because. And then, yeah, Millie is like, the morally righteous one. And she's like, you are all terrible criminals. How dare you? But she mostly. So she's just, like, there to be righteous and sit on the side and be pleasant. And that's Dorothy Kingsley's interpretation of Millie Needed Agency Millie. In the book, in the. In the actual short story, John is the one who hatches the plan for the brothers to kidnap the wives.

[B]

Are you kidding me?

[A]

You want to know what Millie do in that. In that short story? You wanna know what that woman do?

[B]

What does she do?

[A]

Here's what she do. She shows up, realizes. She shows up, wedding day, realizes, oh, I'm alone here.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's me and the brothers. And the brothers are not animals. Like, they're. They're messy, but they're not barbarians.

[B]

Of course. Of course. Yeah.

[A]

And they get more refined because they're so beholden to Millie. Like, she. Because she's feeding them so well, because she's treating them kindly, because she's also tough. They all, like, worship her. And Adam, too. Adam is, like, so respectful to her. In the short story. He's like, my God, I love you. You're incredible. And she's the only one working. And she goes, okay. She says in her head, she's like, I've got a plan. She's like, I can't be the only woman here. So over the next, like, three months, Adam notices that Millie's getting thinner and paler. And he's like, we're working you too hard. Like, you. Like, you need to let us take up the rest of her.

[B]

She's.

[A]

No, no, I like to work. I Like, to work finally by like three to four months. She goes, well, Adam, it's not just because I'm working so hard. I've also been with child this entire time. Like, you got me pregnant day one and I just didn't tell you. She goes, so yeah. She's like. And she's like, now that I think about, probably would be good to have other women here, because at some point I'm not going to be able to work anymore and you're going to need other hands on deck. And he's like, yeah, I guess you're right. And the bro and the brother's like, but, Millie, we've gone to town. The women don't like us. She's like, like, that's. She goes, I've been to town. She's like, I talk to those women. Those women like you. They really like you. They want to ride that D. She goes, the problem is society. And. And she's like, so she's like, here's what you do. She goes, there's a whole story about these sobbing women who got kidnapped. She goes, why not do that? She goes, marry them first and ask them later. And their brother's like, okay, Millie. So they go, Millie goes into town with them, brings them back, and all the women who get kidnapped are so upset. And Millie's like, oh, my God, girl, I know. I'm so upset for you. How utterly terrible. And she's like, it's like, I'm gonna put those men in the barn. It's okay. Like, I can't believe they did this.

[B]

However, I'm pregnant and I'm about to, you know, expel a baby from me.

[A]

And, and, but, but, but does this whole long con for like the next five months of the women being kidnapped, and she's like, like, she's like, I am expecting a baby. Don't worry about it. I'm totally fine. Like, I'm here for you, girl. And like, slowly introduces the men back into the house. And she's like. I was like, oh, hey, like, Dorcas, whatever you. Your name is, like, this is Benjamin. He's got a 10 inch dick and he's really sweet and pleasant, but, like, don't worry about that. He's a. You shouldn't be paying attention to him. Like, don't worry. Like, that's just. That's my silly brother in law. And then like, after a month or two, when she notices that the women, like, are always peeking at the men and like, wanting to be around them, Millie takes out a wedding Dress. I'm like, oh, my God, what a beautiful dress. She's like, oh, don't worry about this. Adam made me so this, like, in case one of the brothers got married one day. But, like, don't even look at it. And they're like, no, but we. We. We kind of want to wear, like, she. That dress kind of slays.

[B]

So she's like.

[A]

She's pulling the volume. Yeah, she's absolutely bathing. Until finally then she's like, okay, you know what? She's like, okay, the brothers can have dinner with us, but that's it. Don't worry. Like, they're only have dinner with us. She's like, okay, they can have dinner with us. Like, and then tomorrow, like, I guess you guys can all, like, play it. Like, play out in the yard for, like, but only for an hour. Like, it's like, I don't want to encourage this behavior. And then, like, it just keeps growing and growing until finally all of the women end up being married. And when the snow melts, everyone from town rushes in. All the parents show up and with shotguns. And Millie has had the baby at this point, and the girl's like, what do we do? She's like, go about your daily lives. Like, do all of your chores. Like, I got this. Shows up at the front door with her baby, and she's like, hey, townsfolk. Oh, you see I'm holding a baby here. What? You're gonna shoot my baby? She's like, I thought you maybe want to christen my baby instead. And they're like, oh, well, we can't shoot a baby. She goes, but where are all of our daughters? She's like, why don't you shut the up for a second? She's like, just shut the up. Shut the up. Take a listen. Take a listen, because what do you hear? They go, well, we hear a spinning wheel. We hear butter churning. We hear cows being Milton. A bunch of female voices singing and humming. She's like, yeah, those are your daughters. They're all married. Do they sound traumatized to you, or do they sound super happy and, like, I guess they sound happy? She's like, yeah, so go say hello, give them a quick hug, and, you know, reconnect, and then get the out. Let them be happy. She's like, because they live here now, and that's how the story ends. And Dorothy Kingsley is like, that's not agency. You want to know what's agency? Quoting the Bible every 10 pages and then sitting on the sidelines and admonishing men that's agency. I'm like, listen, Millie in the, in the short story is a psychopath, but the girlfriend has agency.

[B]

I, I think I would prefer that if I'm being totally honest because like far more interesting.

[A]

Yeah, it's just as problematic, but it's interesting.

[B]

It's interesting because it's. Because it's not as misogynistic as this movie is.

[A]

Well, misogynistic viewpoints, but like she herself is hatching the plan.

[B]

Right. It's not an alpha male.

[A]

Yeah. Like, and the, the men in the short story are all kind of sub bottoms. It's actually even incredible. It's more gay because we've got like Joan Collins and Dynasty, Vanessa Williams and Ugly Betty just like hatching this master plan, playing absolutely every side of everything and then having these seven sturdy red haired penises attached to, you know, tree trunks.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Just.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Being her submissive bottom slaves and everything. She says.

[B]

And one of them being a New York City Ballet dancer, Jacques d', Ambois.

[A]

Father of Charlotte demoir.

[B]

So, okay, so in the book they get married one, one at a time. Or is it like a, like a big massive wedding?

[A]

Listen, it's first, first of all, it ain't no book. It is a short story. It is.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

It is like it's eight pages.

[B]

Oh, wow. That a lot happens in eight pages.

[A]

Well, because not a lot happens in the movie. True.

[B]

They had, they were like, we need, we need to fill like a good 10 minute gap with a dance number.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Barn raising.

[A]

One of the few things that the movie does keep from the short story is that Adam doesn't. Some of the names are different of the brothers. They like, they. Because one thing they do with the names with the brothers in the movie is that they all have bible names and it's in alphabetical order. Yeah. The mom wanted Bible names and the father wanted to be able to tell the brothers apart. So they're all in alphabetical order.

[B]

See, that's kind of funny. I'll give it, I'll give another positive about this movie. The names are hilarious because then, because then when they get to Frank and.

[A]

They'Re he's like, Frank's. Millie's like, Frank's not a Bible name. Right.

[B]

And they're like, his name is Frankincense and that's like a trigger for him that he starts beating up anybody who calls him Frankincense. But then he learns to love it.

[A]

Kind of, I guess maybe because like. No, they keep calling him Frank. The, the way that the movie ends Is the girls get kidnapped. They're very upset. Millie's all like, I hate you all. She eventually reveals she's having a baby. Adam is told she's having a baby, even though he's, like, cast out into, like, the far reaches of the mountain.

[B]

He, though, leaves on his own accord.

[A]

Yeah. Well, no, I thought. She doesn't. She cast him out.

[B]

Well, she casts all of them out to sleep in the barn. And then he's like this. I'm going to our other place.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To our hunting lodge or whatever it is.

[A]

Yeah. And the. When the brothers find out that Millie's gonna have a baby, the youngest one goes up to Adam. He's like, you need to come back and, like, see your kid.

[B]

And he's like, no, this one is also. What's his butt?

[A]

It's Russ Tamblyn from West side Story, father of Amber Tamblyn. So again, talk about gay rights.

[B]

And this is before west side.

[A]

Yeah. So he's seven years older. He's. He's very Twinkie in this. Very Twinkie.

[B]

Very Twinkie. But also in west side, I think they forced him to learn how to dance. And this one, he's like, I know gymnastics.

[A]

Yeah. Well, so two. He and one of the other brothers, like, in my opinion, brother, they are not dancers. So you don't see them doing much. Like, Russ comes in every two minutes to do a tumble, and then some, like, very sloppy clogging. And then the really hot brother, he'll do, like, a box step or a kickball change. But that's really it.

[B]

The. He does it. He does a do. Si do. At one point, the.

[A]

The movie ends, though. So, like, the women, they. As the. As the snow finally melts in May, because they're like, this is a very long winter. Like, it keeps snowing every day. So May comes around. They're doing. They're, like, falling in love with the brothers again, and they all want to get married, and they love them so much. And then when the snow melts and Millie has her baby, the townsfolk are like, we can go up to the house now and, like, get our. Our daughters. And when word gets around that the townsfolk are coming back first, Adam's like, these are your wives. Keep around. And Millie's like, no, you got to send them back. And the brother's like, yeah, we got to send you back. What we did was wrong. And the. But the.

[B]

Because. Because he learns from. Have, like, having a daughter that, oh, this is a bad idea. And you're like, no toy.

[A]

Yeah. I guarantee you, in 1954, that was considered really heartwarming for everyone to be like, now that he has a woman in his life, like, he has a daughter. He understands now, like, if someone tried to kidnap my daughter, I'd be so mad. But today we're like, you shouldn't just have a daughter to understand that, like, women shouldn't be kidnapped. Like, kidnapping. It should not take.

[B]

That is bad.

[A]

Kidnapping is bad. Kidnapping is bad. Hot take, John. Kidnapping.

[B]

She bad, right? Yes.

[A]

At any age. At any age, at any.

[B]

At any time period. You know, it doesn't. Doesn't matter if it's 20, 24, 19, 1954, 1860s Roman times. Yeah, it is ancient Roman times. It's a bad idea. And people are not property.

[A]

I will say this is one of those. This was something that did make me laugh, though, about the ending of the movie. So everyone comes back to. To get the girls back to town, and the girls are all screen. It's. It's the actual chase and fight sequence made me upset because the implication is that the brothers are, like, forcing the. The women down and, like, all over the house, in the barn, because they want to leave and they're, like, keeping them there. But the. What. The reality is that the women don't want to leave, they want to stay. And the brothers, like, or like, you have to go home. So, like, they're trying to, like, like, pull them. But the. But the women are, like, forcing themselves to the ground. And so the townsfolk see this and, like, holy. They're trying to like women. Yeah, yeah. Only to find out that that's not actually the case. And so. But no one knows about Millie's baby. They just hear a baby crying and they go. And one of the dads goes, girls, we won't be mad.

[B]

That was the priest.

[A]

The priest. But the priest is one of the fathers.

[B]

Oh, that's right. That's right.

[A]

Because he goes, girls, we won't be mad. Which is. Sorry, he's a preacher, not a priest. Because I think priests can't get married, but preachers can. He. He goes, does that baby belong to any of you? Whose baby is it? And all the girls look at each other and they smile and they go, it's my baby.

[B]

At the same time.

[A]

At the same time. And then they have. And then it cuts to immediately a shotgun wedding. Because the girls knowing. Oh, they, like. They won't let us marry these brothers because we say so. They will make us marry these brothers if we claim we had a child out of wedlock. So here we go.

[B]

It. Yeah, with the. With the five dads and their literal shotguns draped over their arms and then the preacher dad, you know, wedding them. Getting them married, wetting them. Wedding them. Yes, you're right.

[A]

Before we. Before we go further, John, before we go further, we do have to take a break. Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[B]

How do you mean?

[A]

You're the top.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet. And we're back.

[B]

Wow. What a great commercial.

[A]

A couple commercials, if I have anything to say about it.

[B]

Yeah, make that money.

[A]

Make those fives and fives of dollars delicious. It's enough to keep me in pretzel bites for. For days.

[B]

So. So can we talk more about the Stockholm syndrome? Can we go back to that for a hot second?

[A]

Because we can talk about everything.

[B]

Because that was one of the things I put a pin in and I want to pull a pin out.

[A]

So, John, Stockholm syndrome. Describe her. Who is she?

[B]

So Stockholm syndrome is like, when you fall in love with your captor. Like, in this instance, you are kidnapped, and then you fall in love with your captor.

[A]

Not just fall in love, but, like, empathize with. Start to view your. Your circumstances in a different light. That. Yeah, you think.

[B]

You think that this is. This is it. This is. This is how life is.

[A]

You know, your sense of. Your sense of reality, your perspective on reality is altered because of your situation. Now, granted, there's one thing about the movie that isn't Stockholm syndrome, which is that the brothers never enforce any kind of violence or reward of submissiveness to the women, which is very important to Stockholm syndrome of how that happens. But outside of that, every other thing you would see in a textbook definition is here, right?

[B]

Because they are secluded in this house. The. After they're kidnapped, they see there's an avalanche that happens that cuts them off from the main town. So they are. They are isolated and so they're kidnapped. They're crying in the. In the wagon. They're crying at the house. And then somehow over time, the. The women turn. They. They're not. They're no longer upset and angry that they were basically ripped away from their families and everything.

[A]

They.

[B]

There's that one scene that I got really angry where, like, the brothers keep coming in to the main house to grab something so. So they can look at their. Their respective girl, and their girl is just, like, drenched by their sight.

[A]

Flooded basement, one might say.

[B]

All the basements are flooded. And I just got so angry because I was just like, ladies, ladies, you are better than this. Remember. Remember what? A few months ago, you were mad at them.

[A]

See, John, normally I would agree with you, but last night when I was at Water for Elephants, there was a lot of. A lot of teenagers in the audience that night. I think it was, like, a large school group. And I don't know if you know this, but one of the stars of Water for Elephants is TV star that flashes Grant Gustin.

[B]

You mean from Glee? Yes.

[A]

What is Glee? Who. What is that? Who. What happened there?

[B]

She was. She was another. Another problematic musical TV show that Grant Gustin was also in. Oh, he was actually. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, I see. I stopped watching Glee after, like, episode five, so I truly know nothing.

[B]

Warbler.

[A]

What? The is a Warbler?

[B]

The. Another group. The. The one that Darren Chris started out as and then became in the. In the McKinley High School. It's. It's a whole. Don't. I'll get my charts out later.

[A]

I know. I don't. I don't want to hear another word. I don't. Don't continue. It's not right. But, like, no, it's gonna make me mad now.

[B]

These flash girlies, like, there's that one episode where there. There's. There's a musical episode, and they're all like, oh, my God, Grant. Grant Gustin could sing. And it's like. Like, yeah, just watch Glee.

[A]

Yeah, truly. But so. So we're at the show and, like, it's a mostly okay audience. I mean, a couple of, like, talkers here and there, and then obviously some crinkly rappers. But it's like, no cell phones are going off. No one's being super unresponsive.

[B]

So Patty didn't yell at anybody. Great.

[A]

What happened was act two. There's a. There's a. Like, this 11 o' clock number. I guess it's like. It is a song he is singing, but it's also, like, kind of ballet.

[B]

This.

[A]

This thing. It's. It's his character kind of reliving the. The trauma of his parents getting killed in a car crash and then, you know, all the people in his life that he cares about getting. Going away. And I don't know. It's. It's. I. I don't love the show, and so I can't fully tell you the whole meaning of the song, but I can tell you parts of what that song means. But at one point, and it's like a. It's a dark song. And it goes on for like seven minutes. So this isn't a moment for him to come forward, be swarthy and hot. It's like his character is going through it. And we're also in the last 20 minutes of the show. And at some point in the number, like, truly, in one of the more dissonant tones of the song, you just hear the shriekiest of shrieks from the. From the mezzanine, a girl going, wait, what?

[B]

You cut out for a second.

[A]

Sorry. I was trying to impersonate her. She said, I love you so much. But it was like, I love you so much. Yeah. So when you say to these. To these future brides, for these brothers that were better than this, part of me is like, I don't know if all women are John I. In same way. In the same way that not all gay men are created equal. Some are just born to do poppers, and some are actually born to be a person. There are some women who are born to be, you know, Eleanor Roosevelt and the Millie of the short story. And some are just Julie Newmar in that bed being, like, flicking her being. Being like, which brother do you think slept in this one?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which also, like, girl, same. If I knew that I was sleeping in in one of those brothers, I'd be like, gorgeous.

[B]

Yeah, like that. That one number where they're all in their undergarments and being horny for the men also.

[A]

Or they're like, horny for being brides.

[B]

They're horny for being brides. Yeah.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's just like, oh, my God.

[A]

That, that's.

[B]

But also the ladies there. I think all but two of them are dubbed, if I remember correctly.

[A]

Yeah, there's. Well, there's a lot of dubbing in this movie. Most of the brothers are dubbed too.

[B]

Well, yeah, because Ephraim, the Mr. Ballet man doesn't sing at all.

[A]

Yeah, it's Howard Keel, Jane Powell. And then I think, like, two brides are undubbed. Everyone else is dubbed.

[B]

I also got very concerned while watching this because one of the actors name is Mark Platt. And I was just like, what?

[A]

It's the same Mark Platt.

[B]

I. I had to look it up. I mean, it's not the same Mark Platt. I don't know if he actually has any relations to the Mark Platt, the producer.

[A]

No, first of all, I think the Mark plot of the Seven Brights or Seven Brothers movie is fully dead, most likely.

[B]

No, he is. But I'm saying, like, I don't know if he's like an uncle or something to, to. Or a great, great uncle to Ben Platt.

[A]

I mean, I don't think that Platt is a singular name. I don't think it's as widespread as like Williams or Stone or Smith. But I. Right, yeah. I think on the scale of least popular last names to most popular, I think it would be a four. I, I think there are other plats out there not related to those plats.

[B]

Oh, of course. But, but, but for a hot second, you know, watching this on, on, on prime and the X ray comes up, I'm just like Mark Platt.

[A]

The. Well, in the same way that Jane Powell is probably not related to Colin Powell. But you just, you never know. You never know.

[B]

You never know.

[A]

The thing about that number, though, with the, with the women, when they're all in their undergarments singing in that. In the brother's bedroom about how horny they are to be brides. It's interesting because the beginning of the scene, they're horny for the brothers. Like, they're talking about how they're all like. They've all been taking sneaking peeks out of side the window to catch their eye and always like walking by the window in their undergarments in the hopes that the brother might see. And they said, And I, I said to my mom after we watched, I was like, the scene starts and they're all Samantha. And then we get to the number and they're all Charlotte. And I don't like the shift with Randa in between to get like, to transition through.

[B]

So this is where my brain went while watching rewatching this for this episode, I think I realized that all the brothers are virgins. Because, like when he, when Adam takes Millie and they go to bed that first night, there's that whole like, o, he's going to bed. And then the bed breaks because of comedy happens. Yeah.

[A]

Nothing sexual happened. Just the bed has broken, but the bed breaks.

[B]

And the other brothers are all just like, yeah, boy, you did it. And you're like, okay, I guess you're all virgins.

[A]

Wait, why do you think that makes them virgins? If anything, that means that they know that good sex breaks the bed.

[B]

But like, they're just assuming things. And then obviously, because. Because Adam is Adam, you know, the next day he just went, yeah, I'm a man. Yeah.

[A]

Well, first of all, Adam is the kind of guy where, because he's, he is a man and toxic and wants to save face and, and the universe's biggest douchebag, he shows up to his bedroom and Millie's like, I'm not sleeping next to you. I'm mad at you. And he's like, okay. He's like, I guess I'll sleep, like, out in the tree.

[B]

But.

[A]

But first he, like, steps out of the bedroom, sees all the brothers looking at me. He's like, well, she wants water, where everything's fine. She just wants some water. And then comes back. And he's like, well, you told me not to sleep in bed with you, so I'm gonna sleep outside in a tree branch, which is. I'm sorry, that is total manipulation. He's like, no, it's totally fine. I'll be. I'll be comfortable here outside.

[B]

Don't worry about me. I'll be okay.

[A]

I'm doing what you told me to do.

[B]

Are you having.

[A]

Are you second guessing your decisions, woman?

[B]

Do you. Do you not want me to sleep on a tree where the birds are?

[A]

And that's what really. After Millie again holds her ground, she's like, you fucking lied to me. You. You. You gaslighted me. And you. You have no empathy for me as a person. You only view me as a working hand. He's like, well, I won't lie to you. Part of the reason why I wanted to marry you is because I knew you could work, and this place requires work. He's like, you know, there were other parts. Your hair, your eyes, the fact that you can stand on your own two feet. I suppose that you can say my name back to me. And it's like. It's like it's always sunny in Philadelphia. Max says to Dennis, I will not return to the table until you say one nice thing to me. And what?

[B]

Oh, and.

[A]

And Dennis goes, your hair's looking small today. Like, it's just. That's an out of compliment. He's like, you know, Millie, what I really appreciate you is how you do what I say. And you only fight back a little bit.

[B]

Like when. When we are at the barn raising picnic dance thing, before the dance even starts, where the women are, like, helping them unload their wagon and everything. And. And the brothers, after going to, you.

[A]

Know, Millie's Finishing school, you.

[B]

You have it better. Millie's finishing school.

[A]

Millie's finishing school.

[B]

And Adam is just looking at them like they're all aliens and everything. And it's like, no, no, they're humans. They're just being human right now.

[A]

Well, he also doesn't know what's going on because what it is, is they arrive at the. So what we're talking about is after it's like, it's the first 30 minutes of the movie. So Millie got married to Adam, and they're, like, now kind of on good terms, and two months have gone by, so the brothers have really, like, warmed up to her. They took and also, like, and cleaned up their act. Yeah. Like, they. They're. They're taking to her like a fish to water. And they get to the barn raising scene because they also want to meet women and they want to, you know, court women. And because Millie's taught them well, they have all these pies and cakes and things that. That Millie baked for the thing. And all of Millie's female friends show up and run over to her, say hi. And they see the brothers, and they. They notice because they're human beings that these boys are hot. And they go, oh, like, let us help you unpack the wagon. We'll bring. We'll bring the cakes and the pies over. And each brother, one by one's, like, I was like, oh, no, don't take that. Like, I'll carry that for you. Like, let me escort you over. And each time Adam, like, brings out another pie, he's like, what the is going on? Like, he doesn't realize that they are a. Being gentlemanly, but also, like, it's a courting ploy. He doesn't. Like, he has. He's such a buffoon. He's like, why would my brothers want to carry a cake that that woman could clearly carry herself? Like, why?

[B]

Because he didn't. He didn't go through the courting process. He literally just went to town and was like, I need a woman.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then found a woman.

[A]

And Millie even says, like, you think because you got a wife so easily that, like, everyone else can just make that happen. She's like, that's not how it is. But I love the moment at the end because it's. It's the last brother and woman, and there are no more pies or cakes left. And she has her arms out. She's, like, looking for a reason to go with the last brother. And Adam's like, there's nothing left in here. Why are you still standing here? And so the brother's like, well, I'll escort you anyway. And Adam.

[B]

Oh, Russ.

[A]

Oh, Russ. And Adam's just like, the. The is going on. Like, it's. It's. It's a genuinely funny moment because I do think it's. The joke is on Adam there, not on anything else. It's Adam being in total dunce.

[B]

I do have to say, though, like in. When they actually raise the barn. It's very fascinating when you. When you watch classic Hollywood movies, it's very fascinating the rules of things. Because like, that's them actually raising those walls. They. There's no wires. There's no stunt work or anything. No, that's. That's them pushing up that wall and doing all of that. There's very limited wire work in this. I will say.

[A]

Huh.

[B]

There's two moments I can think of. One is on the.

[A]

The.

[B]

Well, during the dance moment with one of the brothers. And another one is Russ Tamblyn climbing the side of the barn. It's so funny during the fight. During the fight scene where he's climbing and he climbs the side of the bar and walks across the roof and then just jumps down. You're like, what is this? But like, yeah, this movie is weird. I don't like it.

[A]

It's an odd movie. And I gotta. So, okay, we've. We've talked about the plot and all this other stuff. We can talk about more sort of details about certain dance moments or whatever as we continue. As I said, this movie was a big, big hit.

[B]

Top.

[A]

It's hard to locate exactly how much money it made and exactly where it placed at the box office that year.

[B]

Right. But.

[A]

Because I've had conflicting reports of. Of that. But the consistent thing is that it was totally in the top 10 movies of the year, which is nothing to, you know.

[B]

So this was a B movie, you're saying?

[A]

Yeah. This was not a priority for MGM that year. They. They thought it was going to be Brigadoon. That was their big. What they thought was going to be their big cash cow. And Brigadoon, I think, ended up flopping. And this did really well and actually ended up making them a profit of like 3 million, which for 1954 was huge. That's a lot. Yeah. Because it was like tripled the budget of this movie, maybe even like quadruple the budget. And was nominated for best picture alongside on the Waterfront, the Cane Mutiny, the Country Girl and Three Coins in the Fountain. On the Waterfront is the Ilia Kazan Marlon Brando movie. Now granted, on the Waterfront is sort of Ilya Kazan's artistic statement of. Sometimes it's good to rat out. Because Ilya Kazan was famously someone who snitched during the McCarthy era trials. And it was him being like, sometimes it's good to tell on your friends. But it is like ultimately a very classic, powerful movie for many, many people. Kane Muni was a very gripping stage drama that got turned into a movie. And then Country Girl is like a very depressing movie about alcoholism and just sort of rotting herself from the inside out. This is also the year of Sabrina or starring Audrey Hepburn. This is the year of Rear Window. Have you seen Real Window? Have you seen Rear Window? Yeah, Rear Window.

[B]

Jimmy Stewart.

[A]

Jimmy Stewart. And. And the best use of Grace Kelly to date. Although I say that in the same year that she wins her Oscar for a different movie. And I'm like, yeah, no, Rear Window is the good use of Grace Kelly.

[B]

That. And like, that's a. That's very compelling story that you're watching, is gripping and everything. This one, you're just like, what?

[A]

Rear Window is a movie where you think, like, you watch it in the first 10, 15 minutes is, like, pleasant and. And funny and cute, and then it just, like, is tense the rest of the time. And it's so good.

[B]

The. The opening of them going through the. The shot of it trailing through the different apartments will forever live in my brain.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Rent free. Rent free. I should. That's a movie I should probably get on dvd. And that might be my favorite Hitchcock. Rear Window. I. I adore it so much. But this again, same year as Audrey Hepburn and Sabrina. This is the Judy Garland star is born. We've got Dorothy Dandruff history being Oscar nominated for Carmen Jones, which already was a very groundbreaking musical on Broadway. And then you got Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, which is just like, I think was even considered hokey then, but was considered a welcome hokiness.

[B]

Yeah. Because it's got that. It's. It's also a western. It's a musical.

[A]

It's bright and colorful. It's got Christian values in it. Like, they're talking about the Bible every 10 minutes. So a lot of American could be like, oh, thank goodness, a musical that mentions the Bible. Because Gigi never mentions the Bible. And how dare they's a few years after this. But, yeah, like, it's. This is. This is just very much. I know. I feel like Sight and Sound would have a field day with this. With this musical.

[B]

And, like, one of the two books that Millie has is the Bible, and that's how she learned how to read.

[A]

And how she teaches the brothers how to be men. And she's like, reading the Bible to the women, too. Like, pass the time. It's. It like they are doing all this. And in my brain I'm going, nothing sounds more like torture than being in the middle of nowhere, not being able to fuck the hot man across the Alley. And listening to the Bible every goddamn day.

[B]

Like, because it's one of two books.

[A]

That you have, and wearing a dress that's made out of, like, a fitted sheet. What. What are we doing here? Get me out of here.

[B]

The quilt they. That they have during that June number is, like, very well done. I will say costume wise, but then you. But then you have to listen to that whole song about them being like, oh, it's spring, and we forgive the. We forgive you for kidnapping us.

[A]

In your defense, brother, I am very desirable. I understand why you'd want to kidnap me. I mean, kid, all this body.

[B]

I'm also very horny.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So me in this field, please.

[A]

This. This is where it's like, why it's not total Stockholm syndrome. Because also, like, yeah. If I were within spitting distance, and I mean that in every sense of the word of any of those brothers for a long period of time, watching them work the way they work, I'd be like, yeah. So about that whole kidnapping thing. I'm willing to forego that. If you will just get naked and lie on top of me. Just do it.

[B]

Destroy me. Just destroy me.

[A]

Or let me just. Or let me destroy you. I don't care. Just like, I need to touch you.

[B]

Like, Howard Keel is hot. I will say that his voice. I would love him to sing me the. The phone book or, like, my grocery list or something. He can. He can do no wrong. This character is terrible.

[A]

That's it. He's the biggest douche in the universe.

[B]

He's the biggest douche in the universe. Yeah. And it's like.

[A]

And he barely learns anything.

[B]

Well, no, he learns how to be empathetic because he finally has a daughter. So he's like, oops, I did an oopsie.

[A]

But does he learn to be empathetic, or does he just learn that the kidnapping plot was wrong? Because he doesn't even really apologize to Millie for how he treated her at the beginning. Oh, yeah.

[B]

No, no, no. He doesn't do that. You're right. He. He just learns, oh, we did a bad, so now we have to fix the bad.

[A]

Yeah, we made an oopsie.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

You know what it reminds me of? I know you've seen Burlesque.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Starring Oscar denied Christina Aguilera and.

[B]

And also Oscar denied Cher.

[A]

Well, for that movie. But she's an Oscar winner, I think Tony denied Cher. So in the movie, Christina Aguilera gets very close with one of the bartenders, and they live together, and they end up falling in love. And her all because she thinks, oh, he had a fiance and they broke up. But no, they're in bed. And that girl from Glee, Dan Agron. Thank you so much. I just noticed that she was the mean cheerleader, right? In Glee.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

The pregnant one. Yes.

[A]

Yes. I stopped watching, like, right after she revealed she was pregnant because I was like, I don't care. I really don't care what happens to your body at this point. But I. She comes in, seeing them naked in bed. She's like, hey, so we're still engaged, and Christina Aguilera gets kicked out of the apartment and is basically homeless. And at the very end of the movie, he shows up. He's like, listen, I know I lied to you and slept with you when I still had a fiance. I know I kind of kicked you out of my apartment, leaving you homeless, but listen, I'm really, really sorry. And she's like, well, you are very hot. And that's pretty much Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. It's like, listen.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, it's Howard Keel being like, listen, Jane Powell, I know I kind of lied to you about my living situation, and I. I expected you to basically be an indentured servant, more than an equal spouse. And I know I, you know, kept telling my brothers to ignore all of your good advice and stop trying to be actual human beings and just be barbarians who kidnap women. But listen, I'm really, really sorry. And she's like, well, you are seven feet tall. You do have a voice deeper than the Red Sea. And, yeah, that sex was good that one time.

[B]

And your dick is thicker than my forearm.

[A]

Yeah, anything is thicker than her forearm. That woman is two pounds soaking.

[B]

Listen, there was a. There was a shot of her where you saw her teeny, tiny waist, and I was just like, you're giving Vera Ellen a run for her money.

[A]

You watch her and you're like, how do you have organs? I don't.

[B]

And this is a time period where they had to wear corsets for these movies.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, they. They had no. Like, there was no Emma Watson being like, I don't want to wear a corset.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So everything doesn't fit right. This is a time period where these. These actors had to deal. They had. They couldn't. They couldn't complain. Otherwise they would be considered. You know. What's the word that I'm looking for? If they complain that they would. They would, like, be black.

[A]

Difficult. Yeah. Yeah. And listen, I'm not. I. Again, I'm all for progress, and I'm all for, you know, comfort, but let's be real. Jane Powell looked better in this movie than Emma Watson did in Beauty and the Beast. That. That yellow belt dress was ugly.

[B]

100.

[A]

But, like.

[B]

But. And then also you see the other women in their corsets with their teaching changing away as well, and you're like, I guess we're not breathing for this week.

[A]

Well, I'll just. I'll say this for Legacy. You know, there is a. There is a beloved queer film named after Julie Newmar. Is there one named after Emma Watson? Thought not.

[B]

Julie Newmar has the. Gets the most unfortunate character name in all of film history, Dorcas. And it's not a joke. And it's not a joke.

[A]

But, like, she's also the horniest of all them. She gets one of the hottest brothers. So I'm like, I guess if your name has to be Dorcas, like, yeah, get the brother who's absolutely gonna give it to you good that night and look the way you do.

[B]

But Benjamin.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, he.

[A]

That's the.

[B]

That's the hot brother.

[A]

So that actor used to be a baseball. A professional baseball player. I don't think he made it to major leagues, but he would, like, made it to the very top of the minor leagues and then became a contract player at mgm. And MGM puts him into this movie. And Michael kid's like, so we have this really big dance number, and MGM's like, well, this guy can't dance, but Godspeed, so good luck. Like, he's very handsome. He can act okay. He can't really sing, but we'll dub him. That's fine. And, you know, just have him whip that dick around if you really want to distract from the lack of dance.

[B]

But, like, they. And they dyed all the. These guys hair red.

[A]

And they look good. Listen, I. I have a sweet spot for a redhead. I'm not gonna lie. Usually it's for women. I've realized, like, my favorite. My favorite characters in cinema tend to be redheads are like, strawberry blondes. Ariel, Mermaid. Moira Shearer in the Red Shoes. Melanie Griffith and working girl Emma Stone in, like, half of her. Julianne Moore. I love a good redhead, but.

[B]

And I don't. Because I don't think any of these guys were natural redheads. I think they just did that for the movie. And I don't know why.

[A]

They said they wanted to distinguish the brothers from everyone else in town.

[B]

Oh, yeah. To make them stand out a little bit more. So redheads are.

[A]

Are weird? Well, yeah, they're yeah, they're isolated, they're weird. And also, like, because there's so many fight sequences in this movie just to, like, make sure you knew which one was a brother and which one was a townsperson. Because they. I guess they thought, well, the bright purple, green, yellow, blue, red shirts won't distinguish them enough. Let's also fuck with their hair.

[B]

The. The gayest of gay shirts. Happy pride, everyone.

[A]

These are the wizards. These are the Weasley siblings that fuck these brothers.

[B]

And I. I like that, though, that even during this time that they're not all the same hair color. It's all like the. Whatever they can do with their hair. But, like, still, they're not all, like, cookie cutter. Same red.

[A]

Yeah. And also different textures. Like, some have curly hair, some have wavy hair, some have shorter hair. I think they do a good job of giving each brother something of a personality that's. That distinguishes them because it's a movie musical. Right. They can't have nuance, but they have to have, like, one specific traits. Like, one may be a little sweeter and younger one's, like, a little more burlier one's kind of hyperactive one's ganglier.

[B]

The dancer one's.

[A]

And one's the dancer. A few of them are the dancers. Come on.

[B]

Like, one is the dancer, you know, Ephraim is the dancer.

[A]

It truly is the seven dwarfs, because they each have, like, one defining characteristic. And there are seven of them.

[B]

Where Adam is misogyny, Benjamin is.

[A]

Russ is tumblery. It's just.

[B]

No, Russ's baby. Baby?

[A]

Yeah, Russ is baby.

[B]

Because he is. He gets the most scenes. I feel like out of all the brothers, he does.

[A]

He's the one who goes up to Adam. He's like, hey, you know that you made a Bebe, right? And you should probably go see the Bebe. And then Adam goes, well, no, Millie did that to trap me. He's like, why would Millie want to trap you? She's awesome and you suck.

[B]

And how would she trap you with a baby? Like, both of you are consenting, already married. You.

[A]

You dumb. Dumb how? Like, and we're already out in the middle of nowhere. How much more can she trap you? Like, if anything, you trapped her, you tall drink of dumb.

[B]

So in the short story, do they mention how old these people. These people are supposed to be?

[A]

No, just that their parents are dead.

[B]

Okay. Because, like, Howard kills, is clearly in his 30s when he made this movie. But, like, I think he's supposed to be, what, like, 25, the character.

[A]

So my. I would assume that the brothers are like, I would say the shortest amount of time of age between brothers is probably 11 months. And then the longest might be like a year and a half. Like these were parents who were around the clock and like right. If she wasn't pregnant her. But it was because her body was recovering from the last baby and was probably going to get pregnant in a month or two.

[B]

But. And also you have to think about this time period where they were just making kids.

[A]

They were, you didn't know how many were going to survive. That's the dark undertone of like how many brothers could there have been? How many brothers were there?

[B]

Almost siblings. Siblings. Because they had sisters.

[A]

I don't know. I, I have a feeling something about those parents. Their, their genes were like, no, we're not making women. Not when you, not when you got seven.

[B]

Or, or the sisters were just like I see the writings on the wall. I'm out.

[A]

Yeah, they all ran away. It's only the brothers now it's looks. No, but we got, we got A through G so we, we can't, we have to assume there are no other letters unless there's H, I, J.

[B]

Well they, Adam and Millie pick up that, that tradition.

[A]

Millie picks up that tradition.

[B]

Well yeah, but he's the one who, he's. She brings it out as an olive branch to be like, I saw we. But like you're still a dick. But I saw it. We fought.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know. I, I think for the first 80 of the movie she's constantly giving him olive branches. She's truly doing all of the emotional mental work and he's giving breadcrumbs. And then at the end it's more sort of like despite everything, we have a baby and I'm part of this family so I'm going to continue your parents legacy. And that moves Adam. So she says, I'm. I was thinking something with an H. And Hannah, she said it truly is Heptifa. Yeah. Like it's truly a.

[B]

Well, two rules.

[A]

Right. One, like she gives him one good name, Hannah, and then two like two bonkers names.

[B]

Well, because it, because the, the rule for the names are alphabetical order. Bible names.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So Hapsiba is actually a character. I don't remember what her story is, but I do remember the name.

[A]

Well, it's like it's, it's, it's the equivalent of going like saying to your partner, like if you really wanted to give. If you had a name that you really wanted, but you wanted to make it seem like it was a mutual vote. You were like, so what, what are we thinking? Like, well, I have three options. The first option is Karen, and the second option is rapist, and the third one is murderer. Which one do you want? Yeah, like she says, like I was thinking Hannah, Hepsiba or Hop. He's like, he's like, I think Hannah's really nice. She goes, I agree. When. Yeah, you wanted Hannah.

[B]

You basically named the kid Hannah because you have to assume it's been a couple of weeks.

[A]

I think it's been a solid month at that point. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. So what were you calling baby Hannah? Baby.

[A]

Yeah, I think little accident. Little. Little Chia Pet. Chia Pets weren't a thing yet, so they couldn't call it a Chia Pet. Overgrown skin tag. Human souvenir.

[B]

The. The byproduct of. Of a one night stand.

[A]

Loaf of bread. I call newborn babies loaves of bread because that's all they're really the equivalent of. When, whenever I see people bring newborn babies to Disney World, I go, you brought a loaf of bread to Disney World?

[B]

Yeah, I, I see your point now.

[A]

Because they go, they go, oh, I want my baby's first memory to be Disney. I'm like, your baby doesn't know what the sun is. That thing's not gonna have a memory of Disney.

[B]

Your baby just sees shapes and colors right now.

[A]

Like, it doesn't know what. Your baby's not gonna have real actual memories till after they're two years old. And like, even then, it's more sort of like basic images. They're not gonna have a memory of what they said or did until like three probably. Yeah, but like, my four month old should really meet Mickey. I want them to know that they met Mickey. I'm like, go yourself.

[B]

That's for you. That's not for your kid. Just say you want your kid to. You want a picture with your kid and Mickey.

[A]

That's you. You're. That. That is. That is not a human being with memories. That is our fermented cum sock that you just brought to Disney World.

[B]

Oh, my God. Wow.

[A]

Speaking of fermented cum socks, let's get back to Seven Brights for seven brothers, because you just know that every sock in that household is crispy and broken in half. You.

[B]

You, you know, you know when Dorcas is, is flicking her bean, wondering who. What bed she's slip sleeping in, you know that there's some, some stains.

[A]

I. I wanted a moment where Dorcas is like, it's so odd. The mattress is soft, but the sheets are. Are stone cold hard. Like, how odd. Soft mattress. And the sheets could not be crisper. It's like, what is happening here? What do you think's happening, Dorcas? Benjamin was thinking of you for four months in a hall in the deep winter.

[B]

And also, Benjamin is probably 2 years old, so, like, he had to figure some stuff out.

[A]

There's. There has been 10 years of self harming in that house, of just constant abuse with the right hand, occasionally the.

[B]

Left, but mostly agrees with you.

[A]

Yeah, Zoom agreed with me on that one. When I said that that house had been seeing masturbation for 10 plus years, Zoom was like, thumbs up.

[B]

Well, yeah, because presumably Adam is the one who probably started jerking it because he's the eldest. Unless. Unless Benjamin is the one who started before Adam. You never know. I thought it's a weird conversation.

[A]

Adam isn't super like Howard Keel is, but Adam is not super. For me, Benjamin as both the actor and the character, I'm like, yeah, I think, yeah, he would be very open to a ride. But it's. And Zoom agrees with me on that one too. But, like, this is what we mean when we say, like, this is a movie that is incredibly horny and yet incredibly wholesome at the same time. And not in a way that I think is intentional, just in a way that you and I pick up on and might also be a reason why a lot of people still have a soft spot for this film.

[B]

Oh, no. Julie Newmar, I agree with you, is 100 horny in that one scene.

[A]

Yeah. And she was also getting dicked down off camera. You just, you know, that woman had a good time making this movie. She was. She, like every other week was like.

[B]

Brother, brother, am I sleeping with.

[A]

Yeah, like, brother number two, I pick you this week, and then brother number four this week.

[B]

You know, it's. It's. It's fascinating because while I was watching this to go to the barn raising dance moment.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

There's. I. I was wondering about, like, what the women's mindset is during this, because there are two groups of men fighting for them. You have the. The Pontoby brothers, who are the. The ones that we've been following. And then you have the town douchebags. I don't know what else to call them. They're. They're town douchebags.

[A]

And.

[B]

And it's like, are we flattered? Are we angry that because we're seen as property? I mean, I know I'm looking at it through a 2024 lens. So grain of salt with this. But it's just like, what is. What is their mindset? I wonder.

[A]

I couldn't tell you the moment.

[B]

I know this is. This is just a que. This is just a rhetorical question I just want to throw out. It's like, it's. It's fascinating because you watch this now and you're like, okay, so clearly during the time of filming, none of you thought any of these deep thoughts because. Because this is the 1950s and you're. You're an actor and want to make money, but it's. So I don't. That's the one scene, though, that, like, I do every. Every once in a while, put on the barn raising dance scene because it's. It slaps so hard.

[A]

Michael Kidd was a very good choreographer. He was very known for his athletic choreography, which is why he was such a good fit for this movie, because he came in also, like, a lot of people involved in this movie were involved in Lil Abner in some way. So it's the same songwriters as Lil Abner. Michael Kidd choreographed the original production of Lil Abner. Julie Newmar was in it on Broadway, I think. I think she was a smaller part originally and then got promoted to whatever.

[B]

She's the weird robot character.

[A]

The weird robot character.

[B]

You watch the movie.

[A]

Okay. Is she in the movie? Because I know she's in the stage show.

[B]

I can't remember if she reprised her role because they were. They. It was one of those things where they brought the cast, the Broadway cast to the movie for the most part.

[A]

She Stupefying Jones.

[B]

Yeah, that's the robot.

[A]

That. There's a robot.

[B]

Just watch the movie.

[A]

What. What a crazy thing. Because Edie.

[B]

So bad.

[A]

Daisy May. Okay, I want to double bar.

[B]

She's one of them. I think it's her. Daisy May is like, they needed a name.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the guy who played little Abner is the one who I believe originated the role on Broadway. Broadway.

[A]

Peter Palmer. Leslie Parish plays Daisy May in the movie. Yeah. Julie Nor reprised her role in the movie as well. Five years after Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, so. So go Julie. When. But when did the stage show actually wait. Oh, no. I'm sorry. I'm so wrong about this. Lil Abner, the stage show came out two years after Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, so this isn't. I thought it was the Ladner came first, and then people involved with that moved to Seven Rides.

[B]

But no, no, no, no, no.

[A]

It was that the songwriters of Seven Brides, the Choreographer, seven brides, and one or two people from. In the. From the cast all went on to do Lil Abner together. So that. That's that connection. I. I had it inverse. I apologize, everyone. This is what happens when I don't do as much research as I usually do is that I. I say just fully incorrect things sometimes.

[B]

Welcome to podcasting.

[A]

Thank you. Welcome to life's but a song.

[B]

Yes, I do that. I do that all the time. Conjecture and wild theories.

[A]

I want to get a little bit to the legacy of this movie now, but before we do any of that, we have to take one last break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble thread of the feet. Be back. So sorry.

[B]

I was gonna buy everything that you just had a commercial for. I'm just gonna buy everything, you know?

[A]

Please do. I don't even know. I don't even know what these commercials. Someone messaged me once, like, did you know that you just got, like, had an ad for trucks on your podcast? I was like, I don't know what my ads are. They. It's whoever wants them. Whoever wants the time slot.

[B]

It's the BPN that does that, right? You don't actually put them in.

[A]

Yeah. And I think I. I don't know if everyone gets the same ads or if you get. Get different ads based on, like, your numbers, because I know that when my numbers increased, the. The ads I got started to become more widespread. Like, originally it was, you know, today ticks and. And like, random Off Broadway musicals. And then I was getting things like, now you're getting lay's potato chips and trucks from Canada. And I was like, oh, I guess I'm extraordinarily popular now because those major corporations want my listeners.

[B]

Well, I hope this episode you get some John Deere commercials or something, because it'll be on brand, it'll be on theme with this episode.

[A]

I hope that this episode is a commercial for dental dams because God damn women. Protect yourself from men because good.

[B]

And get a shotgun. Because, yeah, good is really protect yourself from these men.

[A]

Say good as the dick. May be, no one should. No one deserves to go through an avalanche for dick. I'm just gonna say that when Gideon.

[B]

Meows to get his woman, you're like, I don't remember their names except for Dorcas, and that's.

[A]

And one is also named Alice.

[B]

Yeah. And that's the thing, and that's part of the movie as well, where they're like, they're not important. They're just objects. That movie treats them like objects even.

[A]

They give them one scene of introspection. And it's just like only half of us are willing to admit that we're horny for the brothers. The other half are trying to all be Charlottes from Sex and the City and that's it.

[B]

But when he meows, you're just like, that's not a cat. Come on, guys, just try a little harder.

[A]

Really, John, with all the things this movie to talk about, you really want.

[B]

We talked about everything else. I was. I was scraping the bottom of the barrel. This is true.

[A]

I think I would be more thrown if that was. You're like, I. I'm sorry. Before we talk about this movie at all, I have to say, that's not a cat.

[B]

That's not a cat. Well, what is also interesting is that Bless yous Beautiful Hyde, Baby Got Back is the theme song. Like, music is the theme throughout the whole movie. It's the. It's the barn raising dance music. You hear it, like, as interstitial scene change music.

[A]

Yeah, it's.

[B]

It's. It's. I like the music. I just don't like the lyrics of this movie. How about that? Is that possible?

[A]

Can I. I don't even totally love the music in this movie. I. I think Lesser Beautiful Hyde is a perfectly fine tune. So is the song that Millie sings after that. Like, they're. They're both fine. Like, Go and Court. And I think is dumb. Go in Court. I hate it. And then I don't love the songs in the latter half. Like, I just. I think the songs overall are pleasant at best and just. Just dumb at worst. But again, that's me. Yeah. And I know that not every song in original movie musicals are gonna be bangers, but, I mean, these guys also wrote good. Gene DePaul, I think he wrote. He wrote music for Disney, so he did Bambi and Dumbo. And Johnny Mercer is like a very famous lyricist.

[B]

Johnny Mercer, Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Moon River.

[B]

And he probably farted this out while writing other things.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It kind of sounds like that because it's. It sounds to me, from what I. From what I read, it seems more like the songs were written not because they were like, we're looking at the script and figuring out, you know, how do we make these characters think? But more because the director, Michael Kidd, said, we need a song here. And this is the vibe. Go and they're like, okay, let's write a vibe song for 1860s Oregon. But.

[B]

And honestly, it feels like, like they put all their time and effort into Bless your beautiful Hyde. And then I guess Michael Kidd was just like, we need 10 other songs. And they're like, fuck.

[A]

Well, to be fair, there are a lot of movies that do have, like, one main song that they use as the theme for instrumental stuff. Like, I would argue 60% of the instrumentation in Little Mermaid is just variations of part of your world. And Working Girl, famously, like, all of that instrumentation is just Let the River Run, but in various ways. Like, it's an organ, it's a string quartet, it's a lone oboe.

[B]

It's.

[A]

For me, the fun of that is like, how are they going to reorchestrate or rearrange Let the River Run again?

[B]

And then they always do.

[A]

I love that movie so much. But the legacy of the movie, obviously major cultural touchstone in cinema and becomes just a classic and reruns on TV and two TV spin offs and all this other stuff. So, of course, naturally we get to the point where it has to be a stage musical because movies getting turned into stage shows isn't a concept that's, like, very new to Broadway. People like to say, oh, we're so lazy. We've run out of ideas. The truth is that Broadway was using movies as sources for stage shows, probably starting in the late 50s. I think O Captain might be the first one. The difference is that the stage versions were not necessarily beholden to the movies. They almost never used the original title. They came up with a new title. Lily becomes Carnival. The apartment becomes Promises, Promises. Knights of Kabiria becomes Sweet Charity. Every now and then you got something like La Strada that just becomes La Strada the musical. But mostly they're like, we want this to be its own thing. We want to. We want this to stand on its own. And it's not really until 42nd street that it becomes was an enterprise of, like, movie, you know, The Musical and Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. Technically speaking, predates 42nd street as a stage piece because they adapted it for the stage quote, unquote, around 1978, 1979, and had Jane Powell and Howard Keel reprise their roles a full 25 years later.

[B]

Yes, now I'm remembering. I'm remembering all this. And you're like, like, oh, yeah, was.

[A]

About to turn 50 and Howard Keel was fully 60 years old.

[B]

Yeah. And they're playing 18 and 20 year olds. Yeah. Like something 25 year olds.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And when everyone else in the cast is like 25, 26 and it's like one of these things is not like the other. They go on this cross country year long tour with the intention of it going into Broadway and it just totally dies. And one of the major reasons that Jane Powell always says is that they, their main producer was also their director, a name, a man by the name of, I think Lawrence. Yeah, Lawrence Kasha who started off as a stage manager and then became a producer and then turned into directing and was just, he had some success as a producer, had almost zero success as a director. And she and Howard Keel kind of banded together and we're like, you don't know what you're doing. We want a new director. And he was like, well suckers, I'm also the producer, so you're not firing me. And they're like, okay, well then like when the tour's over, the tour is over. This isn't going to Broadway. Also, Lawrence's brother Al Kasha co wrote the score because they added like seven new songs for the show.

[B]

Oh, of course. Because there's not really that much music songs in this movie.

[A]

Yeah. And it's not that many songs for an hour and 40 minute movie. And then you make it a two and a half hour musical and it's especially scarce. So they, they added quite a few but they also cut some, they cut the, the song the brother sing. It's like Lonesome Pole or whatever the, that thing.

[B]

Oh, that one was fun though because they're, they're, they're chopping wood in, in a choreographed way. And they're sad and they're sad and they're hot and they're sad and they're, they're all bundled up and no one grows a beard again. Which is weird.

[A]

If you're gonna be, if you're gonna be a hot boy, be a hot sad boy. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah, Hot sad boy.

[A]

And their fiery red hair in the, in the winter snow. But.

[B]

And Benjamin. I mean, what.

[A]

And then, then there's Benjamin.

[B]

There's Benjamin.

[A]

Sorry, what we were talking about again. But so this happens, this is like 7879 and it falls apart. Nothing comes of it. And then 42nd street happens and is a ginormous hit it. And so Seven Brides for Seven Brothers gets brought back up again and they sell well on the road and, and do well with critics on the road. They once again they do like a multi city tour before eventually coming to Broadway this time it is starring Debbie Boone, the singer of you Light up My Life. Yes.

[B]

Fun fact, David, who's also probably in her 40s or 50s at this point.

[A]

Like. No, I think she's probably like mid to late 30s at this point. This is 82 and light up my life was like five years earlier.

[B]

I'm sorry, I'm think I thought you Light Up My life was a 60s song.

[A]

No, no, it's like, it's late 70s, I believe it's late 70s. You know, Debbie Boone, I think she's early to mid-30s at this point. She's playing Millie. David Carroll, who listeners of the podcast will know from Chess and Grand Hotel, he is playing the Howard Keel role. And it's pretty much the same thing that was the production with Jane Powell and Howard Keel. Right. It's expanded book, added songs. They don't really do anything about the gender politics. It's, it's, it's the Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, you know, but longer and without. And, and the choreography is different. And they go on the national tour where it's selling well because again, this is a property that tends to sell well for the masses. And it comes to Broadway and it gets, gets eviscerated. It lasts like one or two weeks. The poster is up at Joe Allen. Now, I would like to read to you, if I may, Frank Rich's review.

[B]

I mean, it's your podcast, so it.

[A]

Is my podcast and I will do as I damn well please.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

July 19, 1982, seven brides for seven brothers at the Alvin Theater. Now the Neil Simon Theater.

[B]

Dear diary.

[A]

Dear diary, today I met a boy. That's a Britney Spears cut for all of you people who weren't born in 1990. So how does one begin to describe seven brides for seven brothers, the thread bear touring package that mistakenly unpacked on Broadway last night. Whoa.

[B]

Oh, she's coming in hot right away.

[A]

Sure is. Sure is with it was like you and me earlier on this episode. Perhaps it's fitting to start with the brothers themselves. They are indeed. There are indeed seven of them, all singing, all dancing. But what in heaven's name, one wonders, has happened to their hair? On close examination, it seems that someone decided to transform all the brothers into redheads. Now, you and I both know this is because of the movie. I think Frank Rich has forgotten this, this detail of the movie. He goes on and says. And then they abandoned hope in mid dye job. The result is an unmatched collection of strawberry streaked chorus boys who, while purporting to be rugged farmers in 1850 Oregon. Look for all the world's like clowns. Seven brides for seven brothers. The fifth musical bomb to be played in the Alvin in ten months. There was also Merrily We Roll Along, Prince and the Aviator, Little Johnny Jones and another one I Can't Remember to be planted in the Alvin in the last 10 months has other lunacies too. As directed by Lawrence Kasha, its scenes don't so much end as lurch into darkness. The sets by the sometimes admirable Robert Randolph are flimsy and dreary in a 1950s fashion that hasn't been seen since. Well, since Mr. Randolph's last show at the Alvin. Little Johnny Jones. This musical also marks the Broadway debut of Debbie Boone, to which one might well say, bring back Donny Osmond the inspiration. That's because Donny Osmond starred in Little Johnny Jones. Got it. Inspiration for this enterprise is the 1954 Metro Golden Mayor movie musical of the same title. In its original incarnation, Seven Brides was less than thrilling. Yet let's be grateful that this show's collaborators didn't choose to monkey around with the bandwagon or sing it in the rain. Both movies slap, by the way. Nonetheless, the original Seven Brights or Seven Brothers did have one major strength. It's Galv. Galvanic. I'm saying that word terribly wrong. I'm so sorry.

[B]

Let's go with it.

[A]

Michael Kidd Choreography danced by an illustrious high flying team of brothers that included Russ Tamblyn, Jacques Amoise, Matt Maddox, Tommy Ra and Mark Platt. He doesn't include Benjamin here. I forget Benjamin's actual name, but he's not listed here. But that's because Benjamin didn't dance. And you and I both know that.

[B]

Jeff Richards.

[A]

Yes, yes, he was an actor. I think he was in one of the Little Women movies at that point. The movie also offered a few pleasant songs in its generally Standard issue Gene DePaul John Johnny Mercer score, which is correct. Not. Not all of the songs are terrible, but not all of them slap as well. Yeah, some of those songs, notably Wonderful, Wonderful Day and Going Courtin, have been preserved here, outfitted in appealingly old fashioned Broadway arrangements by Erwin Castle. They are, however, overrun by eight new numbers from Al Kasha and Joel Hirshhorn, last known as the perpetrators of Copperfield, which was a failed musical earlier. For this occasion, this team has come up with one tuneful cornball ballad, Love Never Goes Away, Jesus Christ, as well as a shameless God invoking inspirational piece that apparently aspire aspires to repeat the success of Ms. Boone's legendary hit single, you, Light Up My Life. The rest of the score might benefit by being left unmiked. The energetic choreography attributed to Jerry Jackson attempts with fitful success to to simulate Mr. Kid's style. But one waits in vain for a full rendition of the movie's famous barn raising number. In fact, one waits through most of Act 1 for a full fledged dance period. The two hoedowns in Act 2 are pretty much variations on the first, though one of them, set in the spring, is framed by plastic flowers for Alad. For added ballast, the choreography is often accompanied by cartwheels, clapping jags, mock fisticuffs and cries of Yahoo. And Yippee. The remainder of the time, which doesn't pass like lightning, by the way, is devoted to Lawrence Kasha's and David Landes. David David Landay's book. As in the film, the scant story is Stephen Vincent Benet's transplanted reworking of Lutak's tale of the Sabine Women. But it's not until after intermission that the brothers finally get a move on and kidnap their unwilling bride. Up until then there are gags about the brothers long johns, about a bed that collapses on the hero and heroine's wedding night, which we know is from the movie, about the etiquette of courting. Actu's big knee slapper is a line containing the word outhouse. The hero is played by David James Carroll, whose sturdy singing voice and colorless personality valiantly uphold the Howard Keel tradition in the Jane Powell role. Ms. Boone sings ably and smiles constantly in the remote, rigidly ungiving manner of a veteran professional glad hander or beauty pageant contestant. The star's acting skills are minimal, but when her hair is up and her forced good cheer is particularly frosty, one can picture her doing a rude impression of Nancy Reagan on Saturday Night Live. And that is the end of the review. And there's a little thing at the end. The seven brothers and some other red haired cohorts saying that I was killing Family entertainment picketed the Times to protest this review. An old fashioned publicity stunt, infinitely more charming and entertaining than their show. Yeah, that's true. The A lot of the cast of Seven Brides for Seven Brothers were picketing the New York Times saying that Frank Rich should retract his review because it was good old fashioned family entertainment and that he was killing that for Broadway.

[B]

I mean, with a review like that, I'm surprised it's a flop.

[A]

Listen, I got a One star review, kind of like that recently. But when people say that I'm too mean on shows, I'm like, read that, read that.

[B]

Like that. That, that probably caused them to close early, right? Like that.

[A]

I think a lot of things caused them to close early. They weren't selling well. But the other book I was reading, not since Carrie, which is a book about famous Broadway flops, Ken Mandelbaum was like, it wasn't a good show. It was selling on the road because tours can do that. You know, you don't have a lot of other shows to choose from when you're in Cleveland, Ohio. And you also don't expect necessarily Broadway caliber sets because everything's got to get packed up and moved once you're on Broadway. And there are 25 other shows to choose from, all of which like have put time and money into their sets. Have like actually tried to craft something. This is also 1982. We are host company or post Cabaret or post Sweeney Todd in the Chorus Line. Like audiences are expecting something different. Yes, we're loving 42nd street and I think Cats is just about to open, but like 82. Yeah, Cats is opening that, that fall, I think.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So there is that spectacle, old fashionedness to both of those shows, but also like Annie is a family entertainment that's like smart and well done and, and was a Tony winner. Just the expectations of what a Broadway musical should be and what it should deliver had changed by that point. And it just sounds like that this, that the producers of this were like, oh, well, people in Arizona flocked because they love the movie. They will do the same in New York. No, it's like, no, they will not.

[B]

No, they will not. Because the people in Arizona are paying one price and the people on the.

[A]

Broadway are paying another price with different expectations as well. And, and we see that happen here. Still like it.

[B]

The, oh wait, this is 80s. I mean it is probably still a, a difference between non Broadway and Broadway ticket prices, but it's not hundreds of dollars like it is today. I believe this is still around like 40 to $50 for a ticket, which was a lot.

[A]

It was a lot. I think, I think 40 might have been the top ticket price at that point. But if that's the thing is every time a ticket price goes up and you read about it, everyone's like, they're so high already and blah, blah, blah. And people want their money's worth. I think Phantom was the first, the first like 55, 60 top ticket price because then Miss Saigon is notorious for being the first hundred dollar ticket price and people, people paid for it.

[B]

But the, I mean the helicopter alone.

[A]

Yeah. Such an unnecessary helicopter. But it got people in the theater. The interesting thing is so the days of like the one week flop on Broadway are. They're not gone. We get like the two to three week runs now, but we, we don't really get the closing in one night. We don't really get the one week anymore.

[B]

Yeah, there's. Because what Amazing Grace was the last one that. That was allowed for it to happen.

[A]

No, Amazing Grace ran way longer than you realize.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Which is the Amazing Grace I think ran almost 100 performances. But not because it was selling in the same way like Paradise Square ran for a little over 100 performances. Not because it was selling but because the producers were just stubborn and were just sinking money into it. They. So something like A Gentleman's Guide or nine are these Broadway productions that are famous for. They didn't really catch on at first. They got good reviews but audiences didn't really start flocking until they won the Tony.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so. And then made their money back. And so producers were like, we just need time to build our audience and we need to like make it to the Tonys and everything will be great. And there's merit to that. There's something really noble about that of producers, you know, wanting to give their shows the opportunity to find an audience. But like when the reviews aren't good and no one's buying tickets already, it's like things aren't going to change in a matter of weeks. They're not going to change in a matter of months. Like if people aren't buying tickets right now, it's because word of mouth isn't good. Even if they're giving you a standing ovation in the theater, half that audience is going to go home and tell their friends and miss it.

[B]

Yeah. Because like beat on guys. Round one needed time to get the word of mouth out and do social media and everything and that.

[A]

But you can see the. But you can see the uptick with Beetlejuice a lot quicker than some of these other shows.

[B]

Like, like, of course. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Beetlejuice wasn't like an out of the gate, sold out thing, but like it, it did over comments, reviews and through smart marketing and tick tock and what whatnot. It turned around relatively quickly within like two months. It was no longer losing money. Money. And that's very. But I think the producers also were starting to see that trend in ticket sales quickly. Like it maybe wasn't jumping up 200k in sales every week. But they're like, oh, we're, it's going up every week. People are buying more full price tickets. And like, we think that by two months we will be at a break even point and then making money, which is exactly what happened. But something like the opposite of that, which is what I think the producers of Seven Brides for Seven Brothers were hoping for was people knowing the original property, loving it and flocking to it. But if the thing isn't good, if it's a watered down version of the movie they love, eventually they will stop flocking to it. It used to be they stopped flocking pretty quickly. You know, you see this with the original Broadway productions of Singing in the Rain and meet me in St. Louis. They're like, the movie's just better. You know, I don't need to see this. I could, I could watch this somewhere else.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's a little slower now. Things like Back to the Future, Pretty Woman, like those shows ran for about a year. Well, Back to the Future still running. But Pretty Woman ran for just a little over a year. But you look at the growth. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, continue.

[A]

I was gonna say, like, you look at the grosses for Pretty Woman, you look at the grosses for Back to the Future like they came out of the gate hot and then cooled off like at the six month mark and never got back to where they were. And for shows that many people thought were like guaranteed successes that were gonna, you know, run for five to six years to not be a hot ticket six months into the run based on such a hot, on such a major property isn't no really desirable. And so it's the same narrative as something like Seven Brides for Seven Brothers with the stage show, it's just prolonged. Like those shows close at a loss and forgotten. They just run for a year, whereas this ran for three weeks.

[B]

I feel like also, so not seeing nothing, never seeing the stage version of this. I feel like also there's. The audience may get a weird feeling while watching this. Like when I saw Back to the Future, the one song that the dad sings when he's on the branch and basically talking about stalking, thinking about stalking. You know, it's weird. And you're like, oh, what? This makes me feel weird now. And I have a feeling that the audiences of Seven Brides, when they went to go see it, were like, oh yeah, I remember nostalgia. And then they watched this and now there's more music and it's probably even more problematic and everything. And they're like, oh, this is now creepy and weird. Like, you're doing a whole dance sequence while you're stealing women. Yeah, you know, we're making. I'm making assumptions here because I have a feeling there. There is no videos of this.

[A]

Probably not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But. So that's what's weird is. Yeah, I think that audiences were watching it being like, oh, this. This story is not the wholesome story. I remembered it being like, these songs aren't as good as I remember them being. And I guess, like, if I'm. If I'm gonna enjoy this story, it's gonna just be the movie. What's. What's weird, though, is it didn't. The stage version doesn't die here. It goes to London, where it does better, if not amazing. And just, like, constantly is getting reworked over the years in the 90s and the early 2000s. It's being licensed by MTI now. And, like, Goodspeed does a production, the Muni does a production. Paper Mill does a production. They do it at Regents Park Open Air Theater in London. And they keep reworking the script. And I don't know what the changes are now. I understand that they're. They try to make it less overtly problematic, but.

[B]

But they still steal women.

[A]

Yeah. It's like, I. You can't really escape this. The kidnapping plot line. I guess what you can do is maybe try to frame it in a way where it's so obviously wrong and hilariously wrong. And then. But then I'm like, but then how do you come back from that? How? How? Because it has to end with them all getting married. It's in the title. And it's the kind of show where it has to. It's the kind of show that builds to a happy ending, or should I say builds to a wedding, let's put it that way, to heteronormativity, monogamy, which neither of those things are actual. It's just in this story, because everyone defines.

[B]

Very important.

[A]

Everyone defines happiness and success as matrimony, and you should never view matrimony as that. It should be an inevitable progression of a relationship. Not a. Not a goal, but. So I don't. I don't know. I don't know how you come back from the. From the kidnapping. I don't know how you come back from Adam being the absolute worst. I just don't know. And I also just don't think the songs are terribly great. So I don't know. But people have claimed that it's more enjoyable now on stage. Which may be true. I just. I. Part of. Part of me wants to see a production now out of just sheer curiosity.

[B]

Right. But do you think, though, that it'll ever come back to the Broadway?

[A]

God, no. No, no, no, no.

[B]

What about, like, an encores.

[A]

Maybe? I. Not as. Not as long as Lear is artistic director there. The one good thing I'll say about Lear is that a show like Seven Brides for Seven Brothers probably makes her puke. And she. There's no way she would agree to that.

[B]

It's. It's not a. More so just one giving thought questions to be like. So is like, obviously it's having a success quote unquote, in like, regional. There is no actual tour. So do like, do you think that there will ever be like, a New York City production of it?

[A]

And I mean, never say never. I think that there would be another massive overhaul of it for that to happen. But I don't know. I think someone really. Someone with a lot of clout would really want to have to do it. I don't, like, I would say, I don't know. There's no real director choreographer right now who has the kind of clout to make that happen on their own. It used to be Susan Stroman, but she hasn't had a hit since the Producers, so she can't. Like, that's not really enough anymore. I would. Would argue Casey Nichola, but he hasn't really had a. Had a hit since Aladdin, granted. Like, he has Aladdin. He has Book of Mormon. He has Drowsy Chaperone and like, other critical successes to his name, but he hasn't had a show make money since Aladdin. So unless Mean Girls recouped on tour, which maybe it did, but, like, I.

[B]

Don'T think he's still going. So I'm assuming so.

[A]

Yeah. And. And it's now playing in London. But, like, Casey isn't the. I can. Can get anything greenlit if I want sort of clout. It's more sort of. I don't know. It feels more like Casey is. He's able to get investors for workshops. And then if the workshops are good, then I'll get Greenland. But no one's like, oh, yeah, blank check, whatever you want.

[B]

Right. And especially with this. Because I think people are finally coming to their senses. Although, yes. There's still that weird nostalgia to it. It.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I feel like if. If some. If anybody, no matter who. Who the director is, was like, I want to do Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. I have a Feeling at least Broadway is going to shut that down. Because they're like, this is not good, this. This.

[A]

I. I think you would need someone who has a respect and enjoyment of the original material while also having a bold vision for it, because it reminds me of. Have you seen Cats? Jellicoe Ball?

[B]

I'm going to see it.

[A]

Okay. I. I will have recorded my episode about it by the time this comes out.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I'll just say, without repeating myself too much, that that is a revival that I think all directors should go see. Not because, you know, everything needs a wild twist, but for me, it is ultimately what a revival is supposed to do, which is make a show exciting again. And in terms of, like, text, it's very respectful. They don't change. They don't really change much of the text. They cut one song. Everything else is mostly just pronoun shifts. They don't really. With the music all that much. They add a couple of, like, ballroom club beats every. Every now and then. But musically, it's very much the cast people know. And it's. It's a concept that's wild. And yet you watch, you go, this is kind of fitting perfectly. The majority of the, like. This is someone who clearly enjoys the original material and had this idea and worked really hard to make them, like, balance with each other. And is it kind of like.

[B]

Is it kind of like Deaf west in a way where they introduce the new element of, like, sign language to something? The Deaf west production of Spring Awakening made me understand that show.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I will say that.

[A]

And that's. I think that's what a revival should do.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, you should. Like, I. I wanted to see that Oklahoma that happened in Oklahoma.

[A]

What? Oklahoma. We call it Oklahoma. Yeah.

[B]

Because I. I love. I wanted to see how they. What's her name? Ali Stroker. Ali Stroker. Stroker. I wanted to see how that was incorporated in. Or not incorporate, like, her in a. Being in a wheelchair. If they actually talked about it, I doubt it.

[A]

They. They don't talk about it.

[B]

They.

[A]

What they did was they just. You. They incorporated into the staging and used it to her advantage as a performer. Yeah. Staging wise, they set her up for success, which is great. The. The, you know, the best revivals find a way to make the show fresh and exciting again. And there are so many ways you can do that. It all depends on the show. Some revivals, it's about giving it just a fresh coat of paint and a line of cocaine. Like the hello Dolly revival. Some revivals, it's about stripping it down to its essence and just putting good actors on stage to tell the story. Like the Color Purple. Sometimes it's about, like, finding that, like, the rich subtext that people have been missing. Like when they did carousel in the 90s, when they did Oklahoma at the national, when they did Cabaret with, you know, Sam Mendes and Rob Marshall. And then for something like the. This Jellicle Ball with Cats, it's like, what if we just threw a bold new concept on it? Because this show has been an international phenomenon and joke at the same time for decades. And the only way we can get you to sort of take it seriously while also having fun again is to just completely throw you for a loop. Yeah.

[B]

And have fun.

[A]

Yeah. And have fun. Which you do. There's also a lot of pathos in it.

[B]

They.

[A]

They. It's not like all camp fun all the time. Like, they actually find some gravitas in there, which was very.

[B]

Of course. But as somebody who hasn't seen it yet, I'm only going off of, you know, the. The little that they are showing on their social media, which I love that too, because they're not showing you everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At least for the Jellicoe Ball, they're giving you.

[A]

They're giving you that. A little moose boosh. Yeah. Which is great. No. I look forward to your thoughts when you see it. I. It is currently my favorite revival playing in New York right now. Now.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yes. Over Merrily. Over Cabaret, I'm sure. I think, yeah. It's probably my favorite musical revival since. Probably since Color Purple. Yeah.

[B]

Wow. That's bold.

[A]

Yeah. Well, there have been other musical revivals I have liked in between. Like, that's true. I really liked Company. I really liked Parade, and I. I enjoyed Merrily. I really liked Once on this Island. I really liked My Fair lady and hello Dolly. But, like, Color Purple is the last revival where I was like, this is what a revival should be. Because I went into Color Purple ready to just roll my eyes and I was blown away. And I kept being blown away each time I saw it. And Cats, I didn't know what to expect. I was hoping I would enjoy it, but I didn't know what to expect. And I was just like, me up. This is so good.

[B]

Can you imagine this, this supposed thought experiment of Seven Brides revival done by John Doyle?

[A]

I would. I would enjoy that. I would enjoy that thoroughly.

[B]

They would be walking through the barn so many times.

[A]

The whole set would just be the barn and four chairs and a purple. And a purple light, and everyone would Be playing the banjo. Everyone. It would. The whole. The whole thing would just take place at the bar at the barn raising scene. And. And everyone would be playing the instruments during it. And it would all be happening on. On the barn set. That's what it was.

[B]

But also very minimal. Like, there's zero. Like, they'll have. They'll be miming the horses and everything. Like, holding on to the.

[A]

And facing front the entire time during dialogue scenes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I love John, but, like. Like, yeah, he's got. He's got certain traits. And I'm like, you don't need to do that for this one.

[B]

It. Let's let him do this. John Doyle, if you're listening. I know you're listening. Do the revival of the Seven Brats for Seven Brothers musical.

[A]

It. I hate him so much. But, like, let Evo Van Hoffe do it. Let's see what the. That brings to it.

[B]

That's the one that did the.

[A]

The.

[B]

The Sunset that's Coming.

[A]

No, that's Jamie Lloyd Ivo did the west side that Reigned during the Rumble. He did the View from the Bridge where it Rained Blood. He did Network with Bryan Cranston. He did the Crucible where all the.

[B]

Girls were flying that I wanted to see because I. I just looked weird.

[A]

Yeah. It was the only show. I've talked about this before. It was the only production of his that I've liked because at that point, I had seen View from the Bridge and then Lazarus and New York Theater Workshop. So I went into the Crucible being like, sure, Eva. Like, what are you gonna bring me? Bring it on. And I was like, oh, there's a wolf on stage. Cool. Oh, one of the girls. One of the girls fly. Fantastic. The whole thing takes place in a classroom. Go off, sis. And like, I. I wasn't sitting there being like, yeah, I love what you've done with this. I sat there being like, I'm enjoying myself, because I just now know to, like, expect the unexpected.

[B]

And zoom agrees with you on that.

[A]

All right, on that note, I think it's a good time to wrap up. John.

[B]

Oh. Oh, we did it.

[A]

We did. Well, we've been talking for over two hours, and you have places to be.

[B]

I've. I'm a very busy lady.

[A]

You are a very busy lady, John. This has been delightful. Where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[B]

Well, so I have a podcast that we may have mentioned once or twice throughout this episode. It's called Life's But a Song. You can listen to it anywhere you're listening to this.

[A]

This.

[B]

All the socials are at. But a song pod. Do you know when this is coming out? Like what month?

[A]

Let me, let me check. So the cats episode will be coming out on. Oh, the cat's episode's coming out July 4th. How do you like that? And then Ben's episode is the 11th, so this is coming out July 18th.

[B]

Okay. So in. On my podcast, we like to do. I'd like to do some theme months sometimes. And in August, we're going to be doing John's Picks, where I pick the. The whatever we're talking about. And the guest, Matt is coming back for one of those, which we'll keep as a surprise. A case of priests. Yeah, yeah, just. Just follow me, please. Listeners.

[A]

Yeah, you do like listeners. If you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram only. How dare you.

[B]

Zoom.

[A]

Oh, Zoom didn't like that one.

[B]

Zoom gave me a thumbs down for listeners. I guess we. I guess I'm not getting any listeners from your podcast. Okay.

[A]

I don't like Zoom having opinions about us. Like, I need Zoom to all the way off Zoom.

[B]

I'm sorry that I'm taking you away from Matt for a hot second, but we're almost done here. You can go back to dating.

[A]

Oh, you know what I realized? It's. What it is is that the AI companion has. Is turned on, so I need to. And Zoom's like, oh, you figured it out. Let me turn off the AI companion. Oh, no, I can't turn it off just yet. I have to do that in Settings. So, yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna turn that off at some point. I don't like Zoom having opinions about what we talk about. It's not Zoom's place to say fucking boo. That said, but then you get the.

[B]

Fireworks and it's a. And it's glorious.

[A]

Yeah, but I don't know what I did to get the fireworks other than just you. Yeah. God, I really am that special, aren't I, John? I'm just that amazing.

[B]

Yes, you are. And we're recording this on Pride.

[A]

So, like, yeah, I am all seven brides and all seven brothers in one person. I'll raise your barn, baby. So if you like, if you want to follow me, you can follow me on Instagram only at Matt Koplik usual spelling. If you like the podcast, you can give us a nice 5 star rating. If you're feeling compelled to write a review, please do so. The. The listeners of this podcast write kick ass reviews. Also, at this point, our Discord Channel will be open. So you can find the link to our Discord channel for Broadway breakdown in the episode description and chat with each other about this episode. If you fully disagree with me and John and you need to come to this movie and show's defense, please do so. If you know the changes that they made to the book for the show now, now for the licensed version, please talk about that in Discord. I would love to learn more about it. If any of you saw the Debbie Boone Tour and Broadway revival, please, like, tell us more about it.

[B]

If anyone has a video of their. If they were in a production or if they did a slime tutorial of a production, I would love to just see the barn raising, whatever they did with that. Yeah, we like choreography.

[A]

We. We love choreography. We. We love it when people dance. Especially when hot, hot, hot men dance.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Just send it to us.

[A]

We want to see the Outsiders. There were the Seven Brothers.

[B]

Well, before the. Well, yeah. And then after the Seven brothers, there were west side Story.

[A]

West side Story was after this.

[B]

That's what I said.

[A]

I thought you said before Seven Brothers.

[B]

I started, and then I remembered.

[A]

So this movie is both later in. Later in time and earlier in time than I realize. Every time whenever I talk about it, part of me is like, oh, it's 1954. This feels like something that should have been made in 1942. And then I go, but, oh, it still predates a lot of, like, golden age musicals. Like, this is. This is post Oklahoma. Carousel, King and I. But it is pre Sound of Music.

[B]

It's so weird, isn't it?

[A]

It's that. It's that weird time.

[B]

This is.

[A]

Yeah, it's post Guys and Dolls, but I'm pretty sure it's right before My Fair Lady.

[B]

This show or the movie you're talking?

[A]

Oh, the show. It's way.

[B]

Okay, okay.

[A]

The movie comes out in, like, 64, so.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's. Yeah. And then we get. We get other problematic things after this, which you're gonna explore.

[A]

I hope nothing was ever problematic after this movie ever again. We solved it. We did it, Joe.

[B]

You're right.

[A]

Yeah. It's everything. Everything was fixed after this movie came out. We were like, oh, this is all that matters. No, listen, I, I, I am. I was trying to be judicious. I probably failed miserably today because I. As I said, so many people reached out saying how much they love this movie or they saw it done at Muni or they saw it done at Paper Mill, and they loved it so much. And there was, like. There is definitely an energy about it and a brightness about it that I'm sure people find very comforting. It's. This was a movie that was very difficult for me to turn off part of my brain for. I. I could appreciate some of it, but I could not enjoy all of it.

[B]

No, if you. If you're, like, even the slightliest of slightly liberal, you're gonna be very mad at this movie.

[A]

I think even if you're, like, semi conservative, you're not gonna love this movie. Like, moderates would hate this movie. Yeah, moderates would hate this movie because it's dumb. And I think semi conservatives would be like, I don't know. I don't like that those women had opinions about sexuality. Right.

[B]

But then. But then I hope everyone agrees. Kidnapping bad.

[A]

Kidnapping V. Bad.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. I'm trying to think of any musicals that had kidnapping in where I was like, that's okay. None that I can think of.

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I. I will do anything for musical theater, but I won't do that.

[B]

All right, Meatless.

[A]

All right. And on that note, John, we gotta close out with a diva today. What diva do you want to choose for us from the.

[B]

Like, from the movie, or is it just in general?

[A]

Whatever diva you want, baby.

[B]

Oh, my God. Can we. Can we have Audra be our diva?

[A]

Sure. We haven't had Audra in a minute.

[B]

Because we love Audra.

[A]

Yeah. Our next mama Rose, baby.

[B]

She's coming back.

[A]

She is surely coming.

[B]

I am so excited for that. I don't care if it's going to be a terrible production. I just want to see her, like, with that music.

[A]

I. I adore her. She is one of my goats. I was. I'm. I go into every show now as I call. I go in open mind at arm's length because it's like, I want to enjoy it, but also, like, I'm not going in blind, just being like, yeah, I'm gonna love you. I just like, well, let's see. I'm gonna keep an open mind, but let's see. And I feel. I felt that way about her casting in general, but when they said that George C. Wolfe was directing it, I went, okay, this is a little harder for me to be objective about because I love him so much, and I'm so pumped for what he might do with this show because he's so smart.

[B]

Now you're, like, too excited that it can. There is no up.

[A]

He. They said his name, and it lit A fire within me because I've post covet. I was like, I need a Joe Mantello show and I need a George C. Wolf show, stat. And we finally got one in the summer of 2023, and it was Gray House for Joe Mantello. I was like, okay, Joe, come back. But like, where is George? Where's my Georgie? And George said, oh, I'm coming back. Only one more time. You get one more from me, but it's going to be Gypsy. And I was like, God damn it. Because I wanted him to direct Gypsy for so long. I wanted him to do with Toni Collette. But I'll take Audra. I will absolutely take Audra.

[B]

I want it. I want it. I want. I just want Audra to sing Rose's Turn. Like, I want to see what she does with it.

[A]

You know what she's gonna do really well with? She's gonna do really well with you'll never Get Away from me, which is a song that most people don't care about, but she's gonna. That one's gonna be a baller one. Anyway, we're closing out with Audra. That's it. Thank you so much for listening, guys. We will either have next week off or it'll be the last episode of Problematic before we take a vacation to the next season. But either way, yeah, stay tuned. It's either, you know, one or two more episodes. We'll see. It's as I said, flying by the seat of our pants. And now we've got Audra closing us out. So take it away, Audra. Bye. Or cool. Important or not, friend or fool. I'll play ladybird Rosalina, Pat. I'll play Jackie better than Jackie did and not use a hat. I'll play the good wife, the murder, the asses, the plus I'll play myself with the movie of us and the movie of us and the movie of us. You need a lover.

[B]

I.