SIGNIFICANT OTHER w/ Adam Elsberry

Summary

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Broadway Breakdown: "Significant Other" w/ Adam Elsberry (July 20, 2023)

Episode Overview

Theme:
In this emotionally raw and deeply personal episode, host Matt Koplik and returning guest Adam Elsberry delve into Joshua Harmon's play Significant Other, a bittersweet comedy-drama about friendship, loneliness, queerness, and the evolving dynamics between gay men and straight women, as well as the pain of watching your friends move on without you. This episode marks the finale of the Big Move series, focusing on shows that made the leap from Off-Broadway to Broadway. Through personal anecdotes and incisive analysis, Matt and Adam unpack why this play devastates its audience, how it mirrors their own lives, and the nuanced challenges of navigating adult friendships as a single gay man.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: The Hosts & the Aesthetic (00:22-02:18)

• Matt and Adam introduce the episode with playful banter and an unapologetically queer, Barbie-inspired setup.
• Adam, dubbed "Gunkle of the Pod," embraces the vibrant, campy set, referencing queer literature and Broadway icons visible in the background.

2. What is Significant Other About? (06:24-08:17)

• Adam’s summary: Significant Other follows Jordan Berman, a twenty-something gay man in NYC struggling as his three closest female friends fall in love, get engaged, and marry, while he remains single. Central to the story are his familial bonds, particularly with his grandmother, and the recurring tension between romantic aspirations and the broader need for connection.
• The nuances of "social life" as code for "anyone special?" in family dynamics—relatable for many closeted or recently out gay men.

3. Play Structure & Joshua Harmon's Approach (02:48-04:06; 17:04-17:50)

• Harmon’s intentional scene flow: Scenes "should bleed into one another… because love bleeds"—their pain is seamless and inescapable.
• The hosts underline the specificity and intensity of the play, noting both its passionate devotees and those left cold by its laser-focused angst.

4. Themes: Going Beyond “A Gay Guy Who Can’t Find a Boyfriend” (04:19-06:08)

• Matt stresses that the play is about far more than Jordan’s romantic failures: it speaks to the terror of being left behind and the struggle to remain relevant and connected as your chosen family pairs off and drifts away.
• The discourse touches on the broader existential fear of “erasure” prevalent in gay male experience.

5. Character Deep Dives

Jordan Berman (21:18-22:27; 25:02-26:34)

• Described as neurotic, self-deprecating, depressive, but with an “earnest bleeding heart.”
• "He is sort of a bit of a Carrie [Bradshaw] in that respect. A lot of the conversations… revolve around him a lot. He makes it about him a lot." (21:38)
• His “unlikable” qualities are defended: “Blanche DuBois—a likable protagonist?… She’s a messy cunt.” (16:08)

Jordan’s Friends (30:19+)

• Kiki: Brash, exuberant, basic, but sincere—“She’s a little ridiculous, but she’s also 100% earnest.” (30:42)
• Vanessa: Morbid, anti-conformist (in theory), but ultimately falls in line with societal expectations.
• Laura: Jordan’s “true best friend”—introverted, “schoolmarmish,” but finds unexpected confidence through romance.

6. The Dreaded Wedding Arc: Gay Men and Straight Women (53:02-65:39; 66:26+)

• Matt shares deeply personal experience—mirrored in the play—about the pain when a straight female best friend’s wedding signals a turning point, making their parallel lives “perpendicular.”
• “That wedding is the last day your best friend and you have lives that are parallel. That day on, they are going to become perpendicular, and it’s just gonna go further and further apart from there.” (58:13)
• The “Bridesmaid/Groomsman” debate as a microcosm: being “included” in a gendered way versus truly representing your emotional rank in a friend’s life.

7. The “Fight” Scene and its Psychological Horrors (90:06–123:18)

• The Fight: Jordan finally explodes at Laura over being excluded from her wedding’s bridal party, voicing years of accumulated pain.
• “Your wedding is my funeral. Can’t you understand that?” — Jordan, to Laura (92:10)
• "She can only hear the hatred, not the pain… and that has always upset me." (119:53)
• The audience’s (and sometimes the play’s) inclination to side with the bride—often missing the complexity and agony of the other party.

8. Friendship, Loneliness, and Change (80:43–89:13)

• Adam shares his own bittersweet experience of feeling “left behind” when his gay best friend’s relationship heads toward marriage and a move across the country.
• Both hosts reflect on how time, geography, and life milestones inevitably alter even the tightest bonds, and that recognition often hits the gay friend harder, sooner, and with more existential dread.

9. The Scene with Grandma (144:12+)

• The recurring wisdom and emotional clarity of Jordan’s grandmother (played by Barbara Barrie).
• “It’s a long book and you’re currently in a very difficult chapter, especially because you don’t know when it’s going to end. But it will end.” (179:55)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

"It's a play that has not won over a ton of people, but those it has won over left pretty devastated, I'd say, by it."
— Matt (03:25)

"That wedding is the last day your best friend and you have lives that are parallel. That day on, they are going to become perpendicular."
— Chorus friend to Matt (58:13)

"Your wedding is my funeral. Can't you understand that?"
— Jordan in Significant Other, quoted by Matt (92:10)

"None of us are happy all the time. But there is a difference between not being happy all the time and having depression."
— Adam (108:38)

"Try as they might, his female friends are never going to fully understand what he's going through. And he needs somebody who does. Just one person."
— Matt (128:22)

“You have this vision of yourself that's just not true.”
— Vanessa to Jordan, paraphrased (16:23)

“We are the protagonists of our own movies...It’s something you should acknowledge and just be aware of, because it can be exhausting trying to bend for you all the time because sometimes you break.”
— Matt (120:33)

"The book is long."
— Grandma’s advice, as Jordan suffers (179:55)

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Important Timestamps

00:22 - 02:18
Opening banter, “Barbie” and queer set, guest introductions.

06:24 - 08:17
What is Significant Other? Quick plot rundown.

16:08 – 16:25
Defending “unlikable” leads; comparing Jordan to Blanche DuBois and Carrie Bradshaw.

30:19+
Character breakdowns and wedding/relationship dynamics.

53:02–65:39
Gay men/straight women friendships, weddings, and personal story of being left out.

90:06–123:18
The climactic fight—Jordan and Laura’s confrontation.

144:12–146:20
Grandma's "talking about suicide" scene; generational perspective.

179:55
Grandma’s advice: “It’s a long book…”

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Tone & Style

• Fiercely opinionated, foul-mouthed, with humor and self-deprecation throughout.
• Shows intense emotional vulnerability—Matt references personal heartbreak, therapy, and crying fits with candor and wit.
• Adam brings a reflective and empathetic counterpoint, sharing his own struggles with friendship transitions and depression.
• Interspersed with theatrical insider jokes, deep-cut references, and self-aware tangents.

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Conclusion

Matt and Adam use Significant Other as both an autopsy of gay-millennial urban loneliness and a springboard for cathartic, often hilarious confessions about their own lives. They interrogate not just Broadway dramaturgy, but the messy, real dynamics of friendship, love, and the feeling of becoming obsolete in other people’s lives. The result is a blend of therapy session, theatre masterclass, and unapologetic ode to the queer experience.

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Additional Resources

• Broadway Breakdown Substack
• Find Adam on Instagram: @adameels
• Matt: Instagram @mattkoplik

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Next series: TBA (Matt puts the topic up for a vote, while gleefully preparing for BARBIE).

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Closing out with: Barbara Barrie (“Barbie” for this episode’s purposes), in honor of both the play and the film event of the summer.

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"Dance the night away, it’s summer vacation. Enjoy Barbie, guys. Fuck knows I will."
— Matt (189:04)

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Transcript

[A]

They're riding songs of love but not for me Are lucky stars above but.

[B]

Not for me with love to lead.

[A]

The way I found more skies of gray than any Russian play could guarantee. Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called the Big Move and it's covering shows that had such success off Broadway, they just had to transfer to the Great White Way and try some luck over there. And this is the final episode of our series. We're kind of a little short this time because papa's a little tired. And we have an idea for a new series, we think, but we won't say it just yet. And I am your host, Matt Kopflik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me to close out this mother of an episode is Gunkle of the pod, Adam Ulsberry.

[B]

Hi, Gay.

[A]

Hi, Barbie. For the listeners at home who won't be seeing any of this video content, Adam, how would you describe the set today since the last time you were on?

[B]

It's very vibrant. Yeah, there's like a. An Elton John explosion piano behind us.

[A]

Yeah, there's pink, green, purple.

[B]

Your baby is sitting on a pile of Sondheim.

[A]

Yes, ma. Paddington. He's on top of a Sondheim. We also have a whole bunch of books abound. Very colorful, some queer, some theater related. We have all of the Heartstoppers. We've got the Velvet Rage and Red, white and royal blue. And I wearing a nice sharp purple. You are wearing yellow. It is very. It's a colorful day today. We are leaning into the Barbie aesthetic.

[B]

And on the front of the table is Larry Kramer's faggots.

[A]

That's so true. No, but that is in reference to the play we'll be talking about today.

[B]

That's right. They do talk about that book in the play.

[A]

They sure do.

[B]

Well, shit.

[A]

Well, well, shit. Well, I got it. Speaking of Barbie, by the way, this episode comes out the day I see Barbie, so hallelujah. I know. Could not be more excited.

[B]

Party.

[A]

What show are we talking about today?

[B]

We're talking about significant Otter, Other significant other.

[A]

Significant other by Joshua Harmon. By Joshua Harmon. Soon to be Tony nominee Joshua Harmon for Prayer for the French Republic. Oh, yeah. Another off Broadway to Broadway transfer.

[B]

I'm looking forward to seeing that. I missed it in its off Broadway run.

[A]

It was, you know, it was good. So if you open up the script for significant other. The way that Joshua Harmon describes the scene changes are basically that it should be instantaneous. Like each scene should bleed into the other because. And he says love bleeds. Ugh. That's right. Yep. And I. I know that because I have a copy of that script signed by him. It was part of the Tony swag of that year. And my step grandmother was a Tony nominator. It was her second year as a Tony nominator. And when the play received zero Tony nominations, she said to me, matt, I guess now's a good time to tell you I didn't really like significant other.

[B]

Well, can't win them all.

[A]

Can't win them all. It's a play that has not won over a ton of people, but those it has won over left pretty devastated, I'd say, by it. Would you not?

[B]

Yeah, I would say in re examining it because I hadn't watched it since it was on Broadway in 2017.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. When. Spoiler alert. Matt and I rewatched it on a bootleg. Yeah. And revisiting it. It was a lot more specific than I remember it being.

[A]

The.

[B]

Just the. No, just the vibe of it.

[A]

Yeah. No, it's a very.

[B]

So it doesn't. It didn't surprise me as much thinking about it now in, you know, in retrospect, that it was that the fan base wasn't as broad as it could have been.

[A]

Sure. It's so like, full disclosure, everybody. Who knows what's going to happen with this episode? Because this play devastates me every time I experience it. And it's true.

[B]

I watched it happen.

[A]

He sure did. We were watching a goddamn motherfucking bootleg. And I.

[B]

It was a very clear bootleg.

[A]

It was. It was a very well done bootleg with the exception of those two kerfuffles, but otherwise very well done. But still a boot, you know, And. And we were in my living room watching it and I still was a puddle of tears at the end. Not as bad as I was when I saw it on Broadway for the second time because we'll go into both of our journeys with this show, but the play hits home in a lot of ways. And then just, you know, I've also just become far more wide open in the last year, actually. Yeah. Speaking of this episode coming out, the day I see Barbie, this episode will also be coming out around the one year anniversary of when I met Bub and that whole journey began. So it's just going to be a fun time today, guys. We're trying really hard not to make it a therapy session. But I do think the only way to kind of go about this play for me anyway is to talk about, like, some personal experiences of why I relate and why I think so much of it hit so well. And just. Yeah. Kind of discussing major themes about this play that I also think a lot of people who don't like it don't realize it's talking about. A lot of people take it on the surface level of it being a gay guy who just can't find a boyfriend. And I'm like, that's part of it. That's just part of it. And if you can't see some of the larger elements in that play that's going on, like, I don't know what to tell you. But. Adam. Yeah. For those who are uncultured or who have just been waiting for this episode to learn about it, you're trash, all of you. They're all trash. We don't have to talk about what we were describing me as before we started the pod today, but it wasn't PC, we'll put it that way.

[B]

But you said worse on this podcast. How dare you.

[A]

I was simply quoting Christine Ebersol. It's her opinion, not mine.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Oh, so we're not talking about 9 11.

[B]

God.

[A]

Ooh.

[B]

Oh, we're going in deep and hard today, kids.

[A]

Well, no, that's Patty. But for anyone who maybe was waiting for this episode to learn more about it and what is Significant Other aboot?

[B]

Significant Other is a play about a young 20something gay man in New York City named Jordan Berman. And it pretty much just revolves around his relationship with his three closest female friends and his longing to fall in love and be in a relationship while throughout the play watching his three best female friends fall in love, get engaged, and get married one by one. And sort of side story is him interacting with his grandmother, mother and her views on relationships and the importance of having people in your life.

[A]

Yeah. And not just romance, but people just in general and her.

[B]

And yeah, family.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. She. There's a. Every time he's with his grandma in person, I think he's only with her maybe two or three times.

[B]

Three.

[A]

Three. Yeah. But he's very caring. You know, he picks up her medicine. He. He tells her where he's going to leave it. They have these nice intimate conversations and anytime she brings up something he doesn't want to talk about, he whips out a photo she has on like the counter so she'll tell him the story of the photograph. Yeah, there's there's like a.

[B]

Like, a tabletop full of old framed photos, and he'll just sort of at random, grab one and shove. Literally shove it in her face.

[A]

Yeah. Because anytime she says, how's your social life? Yep.

[B]

That's the.

[A]

Yeah. And that is. It's her code for, like, are you dating anybody? Because she knows he's gay. She does. But, um, he is. He is out. But it's one of those things where, you know, sometimes parents or grandparents, even if they're accepting, they don't love to say, you know, do you have a boyfriend? They just want to say, how's your social life?

[B]

Right. Well, I mean, I. Listen, if we're getting personal, I mean, I had plenty of family members over the course of. I'm gay, by the way. Everybody just.

[A]

It's true.

[B]

Let me put that out there right now.

[A]

He can name more than three Madeline Khan movies.

[B]

I almost wore my Madeline Khan T shirt. It's in my backpack. I literally have my shirt that says, this is outrageous. I'm the Eunice Byrd Burns. You're welcome.

[A]

That's actually a pretty good con impression.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Path of Madeline Khan. Howard.

[B]

Howard Bannister.

[A]

Stop it. Keep going. Keep going.

[B]

But wait.

[A]

What were we talking about? We were talking about your trauma with your family. Trauma?

[B]

With me, it wasn't trauma. No, but my. But I was. I was out to my family by the end of high school. And all through my 20s, whenever I would, like, go home to visit, people never knew how to ask, like, are you dating anybody? It was. You know, I would always get, do you have anybody special in your life? I was like, oh, God.

[A]

Well, at least they ask. My. I came out freshman year of high school. I mean, I came out as bi, and then pretty much just was like, three months later, I'm gi. Which does not help with the bi erasure in this world. But that was sort of what you did in 2004 was like, when you were young and coming out, you basically were like, I'm bi, and then would say you were gay.

[B]

Oh, yeah. That was the path for.

[A]

For a lot of us for, like.

[B]

The 90s and early 2000s, because it.

[A]

Was, you know, I'm taking a graphic. But it was. It was sort of like the prepping before the full penetration. Because your parents and your family could at least say, well, there's a poss. Possibility you could be with a girl still, even though you now have said, like, you find attraction to guys, and then eventually it's like, no, it's. It's Men. You're sitting there going, no, it's fully men. But you know, I mean like my dad has. It took my dad until probably like honestly last year to ask me about dating. And it took honestly him finding out about like the really awful that happened last year to finally be like, well, let. Now let me ask. Yeah. And it's not because he's uncomfortable. He claims, like, well, I never asked your sister. I'm like, that's. First of all, that's bullshit.

[B]

You do.

[A]

But it's more that when it comes to that. The thing about like queerness with a lot of people and why people always like to talk about, you know, the sex component of it, which is unfortunate, is the idea of, you know, what differentiates a homosexual from a heterosexual is that we are attracted to a specific gender. Right. And for a lot of people it makes them uncomfortable because sex makes them uncomfortable. And like, well, we don't have to talk about the sexual stuff with a hetero because it's just sort of unspoken and we all know it. But the moment we talk about a homosexual, it's like, well, that now for them becomes part of the conversation. And that is sort of where a lot of people in my life had issue for a time because they thought by asking me about if I was dating anybody, it's like, well, who are you? And it's like, I'm not. I would like to date someone too, you know. Right. Well.

[B]

And that's something that's to bring it back to the play a little bit.

[A]

The.

[B]

Something that's really interesting about this play is that it's not a horny play.

[A]

It's very asexual.

[B]

He has. I mean, when, when he's initially talking, having his sort of like fantasy talk about what's his name?

[A]

The. Oh, the one that.

[B]

The John Bellman character.

[A]

Yeah, I'm gonna look it up because he. John Bellman plays, there's a guy in.

[B]

His office that ultimately his friend talks him into being into. Kiki. Kiki. His friend Kiki, who's the most assertive of his three friends.

[A]

Kiki is a character that doesn't totally exist in real life, but she kind of exists in real life.

[B]

Yeah, well. And I'm sure we'll end up talking about these three friends a bit more in a few.

[A]

But girl, this is gonna be a five hour episode.

[B]

No funny girl.

[A]

I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

[B]

Okay, but even when he's talking about the physical description of this guy, it's. It's kind of sexual, but it's almost kind of like a. Like a. It's like an adolescent talking about.

[A]

Sort of so Will.

[B]

Juvenile description of Will.

[A]

Will, yeah. Yes, It's. It's juvenile, sure. But also like, so Will. Yeah. Will is this guy in his office. And anyone who's ever seen John Bellman in a Speedo knows that he's a very attractive individual.

[B]

No one's mad at it?

[A]

No. And yeah, like, basically, we learned about him early through Kiki at. At the bachelorette party. And she knows that he's gay because Kiki works in human. So Kiki and Jordan. Jordan work in the same office in an advertising agency. Jordan actually works, as in the advertising part. He's a creative and Kiki works in hr. And so she did, like, all the paperwork for Will and has, like, hyping him up to Jordan. And then Jordan actually meets Will, realizes he's attractive, and then what happens is at a company, like, retreat, they call it, right?

[B]

Oh, yeah, it's the company pool party.

[A]

Yeah. At the, like, CEOs country club out in Connecticut. And they. He sees Will get out of the pool, and immediately he's like, infatuated and basically fawns over him for the majority of Act 1. But yet the monologue you're describing is the monologue as he's watching Will come out of the pool and stand there in slow motion. And it's a little juvenile, but it's also like someone objectively looking at a work of art almost. It's not because Jordan thinks so little of himself, he doesn't think that Will would ever be into him. Therefore, the way he talks about him isn't like, oh, my God, like, and we would have such hot sex. It's more like. It's very innocent.

[B]

It feels kind of. Yeah, it feels kind of innocent and like a little chaste, almost. Kind of like season one. Sarah Jessica Parker, Sex and the City a little bit.

[A]

In what way?

[B]

I don't know. Just like. I mean, Sarah Jessica Parker talks about sex on that show, but it's always kind of. It's. It never feels as intense as her first friends.

[A]

Sure. Well, first of all, Sarah Justice Parker clearly is not comfortable talking about sex because Carrie does not talk about it at all on. And just like that, she mentions come once. It's a. It's an annoying friend. I'd miss it if it were gone. That's the one thing she says about sex. But no, she talks about sex in the first season. It. I would argue it actually gets less so as the show continues. But Carrie's always more sort of like an innuendo rather than just outwardly talking about it. Right. But.

[B]

But. But to. Sorry to expand on the.

[A]

The. The.

[B]

This. It's this. It's not a sexless show. But it's. Like I said. I was saying, it's not really a horny show. There's never. Because one aspect of. Of. Of gay dating culture that is never explored is apps. And apps existed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When this play came out and Which. And I. I wonder if it was done in. If it was done to make it feel more universal.

[A]

Yeah, they. They reference apps. They. Jordan. They talk about in an early scene. So basically, like, the structure of the play opens at the bachelorette party for Kiki, the first friend to be with somebody. And at Kiki's wedding is when the second friend, Vanessa, meets her future husband. And then at the bachelorette party for Vanessa, at the end of Act 1, we learn that Laura Jordan's, like, true best. Best friend. She is now dating somebody. And so the play finally ends at Laura's wedding. And it's at. I think it's. Yeah, it's at. It's at Kiki's bachelorette party. She's. Jordan's talking to Laura as Kiki. Vanessa are away about, you know, dating and all this stuff. And Jordan mentions an app where a guy messaged him who he met either. Unclear if it. He does. I don't know if he. I don't know if he says specifically what app it is. It could be Grindr, it could be Tinder, whatever. But the guy says, you have a face that was made to be. Come on.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And then what? I like Jordan saying, I don't know. I feel like I had a face that was meant for other things or maybe additional things, like. Which. It's just. It's a. It's a fun line, but it's.

[B]

But still, it's.

[A]

It's the.

[B]

That's the only reference to that. That part of the culture.

[A]

I. Yeah, I always got that. Like, after that, Jordan just deleted them all.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And not to, you know, on him too much because, like, he's got issues and we'll talk about it. And the character of Jordan is a main reason that a lot of people don't like the play because a lot of people, quote, unquote, say that he is unlikable as a lead character, to which I say off is Blanche dubois a likable protagonist? A Streetcar Named Desire, like, kindly sit on a cat, says Gary Bradshaw.

[B]

Likable.

[A]

No she's relatable, though. That's right. She's a messy cunt. But with Jordan, I think part of the reason why he would delete the apps is to lean into the narrative of I'm desperately single.

[B]

I'm gonna die for something real.

[A]

And. But also, like, looking for something real. Yes. But also by making it harder for himself to find someone, he can also continue to project the narrative of, like, I'm undateable, which I don't think he wants to be undateable, but he does have. Vanessa says to him, like, you have this vision of yourself. That's just not true. And I think it's hard to know if that's meant to be accurate or not, because on Broadway, the part of Jordan was played by Gideon Glick, who is, I'll be honest, a very stunning individual. Like, he's so angular and, like, toned and very pretty looking. So it's easy to watch the character Jordan think, like, oh, manic, depressed, like, major body image issues and all these things. But I'd be interested to see it done with someone who doesn't look profoundly attractive and somebody, you know, maybe not necessarily Shelby, but, like, someone who's not where everyone in the theater goes. What are you talking about? You could be in a Calvin Klein ad or, like, if you're getting, like you were in a Gap ad with the casting awakening and, like. Because those photos, the. The promos for Broadway, you know, it was those photos of them in their, you know, party outfits. Right.

[B]

Oh, right. It was like. It was like the photo booth kind of.

[A]

Of like. Of a party.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which they had in the theater as well. But, I mean, there's a. There's like, one singular photo of Gideon as Jordan up close, and it's, like, meant to sort of be pensive and sad, and all I could think was like, damn, you're a handsome dude.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Angular as fuck. I know.

[B]

Yeah. I wish. I always wish that they had expanded on the original Off Broadway poster for the show, which is him getting hit in the face with a bouquet.

[A]

Yep. I loved that.

[B]

I thought it was a great. Just a great visualization of kind of the feel of the show.

[A]

What was your journey with the show? Because you. We have different journeys.

[B]

I think I've talked about this on. On here before, but I worked at Roundabout Theater Company for a while in. In audience services. If I ever talked to you on the phone and I was mean, I'm sorry. It was exhausting there.

[A]

You serviced audiences.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He says as he wipes away the mouth uh huh.

[B]

But we, but working in that department a lot of times most of the time, as long if the scripts were available ahead of time, they would send them to us so that we could read them. So that when we were talking to subscribers, single ticket buyers, we would be able to, you know, expand a little bit on whatever the crummy synopsis was that was in like the, you know, the season brochure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Bad Juice had been such a huge hit, so we knew that there was a new Josh Harmon play coming. And even, even the topic of it hadn't been announced for the longest time. And finally I found out through a reliable source in the office who always divulged secrets that the reason that they were waiting to announce the play was because they were asking him to retitle the show. And I don't know if that's totally true, but it's what I was told and at the time the title of the play again allegedly was Franco Prussian War, which does factor into the plot of the show as it's the, the, the subject of a documentary that, that Jordan and will finally go and see at like the IFC or somewhere downtown.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But they quickly got them to change the name and, and the, and then we were given the scripts and on a really slow day at the office, I sat and read the whole thing and had lots of feelings.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I mean I thought it was hilarious. And given my association with them and having seen Bad Jews a couple of times, knowing that Josh Harmon, you know, is a very funny writer but very dry and will like go for the jugular at some point in the show. I assumed he would based on the plot about Jews. And so I kept waiting for the bomb to drop. Insignificant other. And like, you know, sure enough, about a little over three quarters of the way through, it hits real hard. And I remember sitting at my desk with tears rolling down my face and luckily it was, there was, there was nobody sitting around me. So I was. So it made me, it really struck home. And like you already said in terms of the main character with Jordan Berman, not Jewish, but very gay and understanding what it's like to be a gay 20 something, especially in New York really. And having had somebody, a best friend recently had gotten married. Just lots of things that I connected to in reading it. But also the. I think the thing that I realized the most as I was reading it was what a massive challenge that role was going to be for whoever played it, just because it isn't a quote unquote likable Character. He. He is somebody who is really difficult and really. Oh, God, what's the word? Help me.

[A]

I don't know. What do you want to say?

[B]

He's neurotic. He's a really neurotic person. And so it makes him just not. There are times where he and his friends interact and they're very funny together, but anytime he's alone and voicing his problems with himself or monologuing to a friend about whatever he's going through, you're sitting there going, oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God, stop.

[A]

I mean, he is sort of a bit of a Carrie in that respect, because a lot of the conversations of the play revolve around him a lot. He makes it about him a lot. At least in the. In these scenes. That of his life that we get to see.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There are other times where he's. Where he does talk to other. You know, about other subjects with the women in his life. But, you know, he is. He's very manic. He clearly has. He suffers with depression, which is. It's hinted at a lot throughout the play. And then there's a final line in the. Not a final line. There's a line in the final scene that he has with Laura, which we'll get to, that I didn't pick up on until I think I. I got to do a reading of it last year, and that line made me go, oh, his. His character makes a lot more sense to me now. And it always did. But. Yeah. Sorry, you're. And continue.

[B]

Oh, just. So, anyway, long story short, Roundabout put on the play at the Laura Pell's theater. I don't know. It's. I have to say, it's rare that I'll. That I'll. I'll read a play and see it. And it's kind of exactly what I expected in the best way possible.

[A]

Yeah. And.

[B]

And I really. And Gideon was somebody that I. That I knew peripherally through other friends. And I was like, oh, he's such a nice guy, and he is talented. I'll be curious to see what he does with it. And, you know, I mean, jumping ahead, I'm still kind of shocked he didn't get a Tony nomination. Once it transferred, he found he. And probably. And I'm sure that was it Trip Coleman that directed it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm sure that working with Trip also, the amount of, you know, just amazing depth they found for this character in presenting it to an audience to make him so relatable in the end was really impressive. And. And it. And it really. And I. I think is honestly what made the play work. I think, you know, his. And he and Lindsay Mendez together also. Their.

[A]

Their.

[B]

Their chemistry was. Was. Was a major factor in what made the play work and. And, you know, and probably be reviewed so well besides, you know, the decent writing. It was.

[A]

It's pretty good. No, it was his not lack of a nomination is to me. Yeah. I mean, that production was so well cast to begin with. I know Rebecca Naomi Jones did not do it off Broadway.

[B]

No, she didn't play Vanessa. And I. And I apologize to the actress whose name I don't know is that, who.

[A]

Did it on Broadway. Rebecca Naomi Jones. Yeah, I forgot the actress's name off Broadway. I apologize. But it was everybody else very well cast. Show and kind of launched Sass Goldberg from there into other stuff, doing which way to the stage and a whole lot of other things.

[B]

Yeah. I wasn't familiar with her before, and.

[A]

Yeah. And.

[B]

And she was immediately charmed by her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She also is also somebody who takes a character who you could really want to smack the shit out of, and you still want to smack the shit out of her. But she's hilarious. And you.

[A]

You.

[B]

You look forward to her appearing every time.

[A]

Exactly. She's someone who I don't think I'd ever could be friends with, but she's.

[B]

Like the basic est of basics.

[A]

Yes. We'll get into all of that. I'm looking at the Tony nominees for 2017 Leading Actor in a play. The winner is Kevin Klein. And present Laughter, which I know a lot. Yeah, neither did I. I know it was filmed, but a lot of people were like, whatever, I guess.

[B]

And it had just that that play had just been on Broadway like, three.

[A]

Years before with Victor Garber. Yeah. Dennis Arndt in Heisenberg, Chris Cooper in A Doll's House Part 2, Corey Hawkins in six degrees of separation, and Jefferson Maze in Oslo. Kevin Klein, 1.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I heard him. I heard amazing things about Dennis Arndt and Heisenberg. I'm gonna say something very controversial here. I would. I would take out Jefferson Mays in Oslo. Sure, Oslo. Which I found boring as Jefferson Maze's character, even though he's technically the lead. Dull, dull, dull.

[B]

That was a long play. That felt long.

[A]

Yes, sure was, and sure did. I saw a significant other at the Laura Pels that summer of 2015, and I did not know what it was about. I. I had, like, a general concept, but I did not realize how true it was going to be. And I went with my best friend, who is a woman and that is important to note as we go forward with themes of display. And we were sat on opposite ends of the theater. And act one ends. And I will save what I said at the end of Act 1 to the girls next to me until we talk about that scene. Oh, Lord. It's just a perfect encapsulation of sort of what that play is covering. And then the show ends. I meet Sarah in the lobby, and I'm just like a little puddle. I'm not sobbing intensely, but I'm crying. And she has, like, hold me. And we wait up for Sass afterwards, because I know Sass Goldbrick a little bit. And so we waited for afterwards to say hi. And then a year and a half goes by, it moves to Broadway. And so much of my life had lined up at that point with the play, more so than it was in 2015. First of all, Jordan starts the play at. At the age of 27, and I believe ended at 29 or 30. About two years go by in that play, between two and three. And, you know, very close to this grandmother, New York City Jewish, gay boy. Best friend's name is Laura. My sister's name is Laura. One of my good friends was getting married when the play happened. And then a lot of stuff that happens with Laura is stuff that happened with me. My best friend, who I saw the play with the first time, which we'll get into. And it just. I was, you know, I think third row center of the orchestra in the Booth Theater where it Normally sits, about 700. I would want to say about 110 people are in the theater that night. But that cast still gave. The audience was super into it. And I. It hit me so hard, I could feel the tears coming when it ended and they were doing Broadway Cares, Red Bucket at the end. And I remember pushing past Rebecca Naomi Jones because I had to get on the street. I had to start stopp. I couldn't get on the subway, so I ran back to my mom's, where I was staying at the time. And now I'm staying again. But I remember, like, coming home to her. She was sitting on the couch watching tv, and I just collapsed in her arms, sobbing. It was. It was just. I mean, in a good way, though, because that play doesn't make me feel upset. It just hits me in a very harsh place, right? And a very raw place. And then last year. So this is actually a funny story, though, so last year I was kind of in a spot, and I said to best friend Sarah, shout out to her, hi, Baby, I said, I really want to do a reading of this play. I just, like, I feel like my soul needs to let me play Jordan once in my life. Sure. It's like, great. She's like, a lot of our friends are actors. She's like, here we go. So we did it at her apartment and my friend Caitlyn did was literally like a last minute replacement to come in. And Caitlyn's husband, Mike. Yeah, they were married by that point. Her husband Mike decided he wanted to sit in and watch. And it's like, you know, it was the. How many of us? Like, 3, 4, 5, 6. It was the seven of us acting it. And then like maybe another 10 people sort of sitting around us as we did it. And afterwards, Mike comes up to me. He goes like, wow, man. Like, thank you so much for being so, like, vulnerable and raw with us tonight. I was like, oh, I didn't know. My performance was not great. And then he leaves and texts us. And she goes, so I'm in the cab with Mike and Ally. She goes, mike thought that Matt wrote the play. Oh, he totally thought that. Matt just, like, wrote this about his life.

[B]

Well.

[A]

Well, I was like, well. Which it just justified to me that I was right to find all these parallels to me in the play. And I know it mirrors a lot of people in their lives, but I definitely watched it being like, oh, Josh Harmon hacked my Facebook and wrote a play. Yeah, yeah. And then some things that happened in the play happened later in my life. But, yeah, it's a play that just. I think I have no objectivity, really about it because it is just so personal to me. And I'm gonna try to analyze it objectively today, but I don't know how well I'm gonna do because ultimately it just. It just hits so hard. But before we do any of that, let's take a break. Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[B]

How do you mean?

[A]

You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow caller. You're the top.

[B]

You're a Coolidge dollar.

[A]

You're the nimble tread. And we back. Okay, okay. That was.

[B]

I'm exhausted.

[A]

Yeah, well, you're welcome, baby. I stretched you out good.

[B]

My God, if you say that again, I'm going to say what you. What you told me to put on that Instagram post.

[A]

Watch it.

[B]

Watch it, mister.

[A]

I just realized, by the way, you're very color coordinator for both chairs.

[B]

Actually, I do what I can.

[A]

It's very smart. So we open the play. We are at Kiki's bachelorette party. And Kiki is talking sort of about how she found Conrad.

[B]

She just stopped looking. She wasn't even looking.

[A]

She wasn't even looking. She just made it about her. And she became obsessed with herself. I even fell in love with myself a little bit. I didn't want to. I didn't want to tell you guys. I was a little too embarrassed. And it's. It's this monologue where it immediately encapsulates who Kiki is as a person. Right. Like, she is a little ridiculous, but she's also 100 earnest. She's not putting on a show. This is who she is.

[B]

Yeah, she's just kind of like a no filter kind of person.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I do think she kind of lives her life thinking that there's a camera crew nearby, but I don't think she's acting for it. I think she's maybe being a. Like just a heightened version of her true self. Yeah. Because she even acts that way in the fucking office. I can't seem weird because I'm not weird. But she's talking sort of about how she found her guy and, you know, going to Jean George because she has the money, sort of. And then they all start, you know, being friends and Kikiing and she and Vanessa go off and Jordan and Laura talking. We just sort of get a sense of who everybody is and where they are in their lives. No, Kiki's about to get married. Vanessa has this on again, off again again relationship with this much older man she works with. And we also learn, like, Vanessa is a very morbid person. Vanessa kind of fantasizes about death and she just. She thinks that the world is sort of bullshit and she doesn't like. So. So she claims she doesn't like social norms. However, we will find out that's not totally true. And then Laura is a school teacher. Oh, and do we know what Vanessa does?

[B]

Oh, I don't know.

[A]

I don't think we ever do.

[B]

Were at the museum a few times. I don't know why. I just always assumed she was like a curator.

[A]

I know she's not, but yeah, she and Jordan, they have a game that's specific to them at the museum. And I like that they all sort of have different. They all met in college, but they all have different things with him that he can hold on to. So he works with Kiki. He and Vanessa have their museum game. He and Laura are probably the closer of friends and they are more alike in terms of mind frame. They lived together for a Long time.

[B]

So we.

[A]

We are seeing them, I think, pretty soon after Laura has moved out and moving, living on her own. And they both are still kind of like hopeless about love. And they fantasize about what if we got married? And it's this.

[B]

Oh, yeah, by. By 40, if you don't find anybody, let's marry each other. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And they had an idea for kids. Boy and a girl, obviously.

[B]

Irma.

[A]

Irma. And what was the boy's name?

[B]

Oh, it's. Oh, they want to go biblical. It's like Noah or Jonah, I think.

[A]

Yeah, I think maybe Noah. Noah. Yeah. Yeah. And. And they talk about what they're. What. They talk about what their wedding song would be. And I bring this up because it. Again, it comes up at the end, but they. They figure out, like, what it would be. And first. And the idea is like, oh, it would be ironic, though. Like, it would be something that's so earnest that we would do it ironically. And this is how I love their dynamic, as Laura's like, oh, it's like Whitney and Jordan just goes, whitney is not ironic. And they eventually come down to doing Celine Deal. And first, the obvious one is, my heart will go on. But no, that's too obvious. So they do. Because you loved me. And they. They have this whole bit where they just sing to each other and to Laura, it's very clear that, like, it's not real, it's a fantasy. But, like, Jordan's definitely got, like, the colonel in the back of his brain, just in case.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we immediately bleed into. From that scene into him meeting Will at the office. We've heard from Kiki, has just moved in, is gay. He seems gay. And you should totally hook up with Will. You should bring Will to the wedding. Because the question becomes about who's everyone going to bring to the wedding. Vanessa's. Vanessa's not going to bring her much older lover, even though Kiki's like, you should totally bring him. That's totally disgusting. Bring him. And I love, like, how old is he? Like, early 50s. Oh, my God, that's so gross. You should totally bring him. She's so fun. And then Laura and Jordan are going to bring each other, and they do. They go together and, you know, they talk about other, you know, the minutias of all their lives. And then Jordan meets Will, and then everything kind of just Jordan's narrative for the rest of act one changes because of the will of it. All. Right.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He just obsesses about Will. And the thing about this and this is one of those things where you can talk about what makes Jordan a very realistic character and why he's not like a perfect protagonist. Because he obsesses about Will and. And idolizes him almost in a way that Will doesn't deserve.

[B]

Will's just boring.

[A]

Will's boring. He's just hot.

[B]

Yeah, that's.

[A]

Or, you know, objectively hot. You know, Will. And he's reading a book about Pearl harbor. And, you know, Jordan tries, like, make conversation with him, but, like, Will doesn't really have a sense of humor. Will. And we learned that he's, you know, on Fire island half of the summer with all these hot guys. I'm like, oh, he's that gay.

[B]

He's just. He's not vapid, but he's just kind of bland. Yeah, he's hot and bland.

[A]

Exactly. He doesn't need a personality because he's never. He doesn't have a personality because he's never needed a personality.

[B]

Yeah, he's John Hammond, 30 Rock, 1,000%.

[A]

Except, like, not nearly as endearing and nice.

[B]

Right. Just boring.

[A]

Just boring. But Jordan thinks the world of him and says things, you know, like, I think you're a really great guy. All this stuff. I'm like, you don't know anything about him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, and they talk about this. His friends all say, like, you obsess. You get. You do this a lot where you get to this point with somebody where you just. You start fantasizing about a future. You start thinking highly of them in a way that's, like, not realistic. So he's done it before. It seems like with Will, it's a little different. Maybe because it's someone he's around more often, so it could be more tangible.

[B]

I think it's that and I think it's the. The urgency of the situation for him.

[A]

Sure. I gotta fight.

[B]

I think the clock is ticking.

[A]

Sure, sure. And that's the thing about the. People have this thing about, like, the clock ticking, which I don't understand.

[B]

It's just like, it's been brought into our consciousness by social, quote, unquote, norms.

[A]

Yeah, well, especially as we've progressed with life. I mean, some people go, well, my biological clock, I want to have kids. I'm like, okay, cool. If you meet someone later in life and you can. Or maybe, or like, past the childbearing age, there's adoption. There's, you know, like, science has helped us so far that, like, we can do this.

[B]

Kids can be had.

[A]

Kids can be had. Like, maybe take the time to Find the person and stop being like, well, I can't look back now. Right? That's. No, I said I wasn't gonna bring my outside life into this, but yeah, that's like. That's sort of my thing with Will. I want to. I do want to talk about that a bit more with like, the Jordan Will dynamic. Right, Because. Because we've all been there where we find someone who we maybe think a little too much of at first.

[B]

Oh, God, Yes, I know that's how.

[A]

You felt about me.

[B]

And then I was so disappointed the moment you met.

[A]

You met me and you went, oh, God. Oh God, is this it?

[B]

This is it.

[A]

Oh, Jesus Christ.

[B]

I thought there'd be some depth, but nope.

[A]

No, you looked.

[B]

You looked at me and said, smile, Carousel. And I don't know.

[A]

Oh, I thought you were talking about my actual smile, not the show, that smile.

[B]

Smile, Carousel.

[A]

There you go, there you go. And Mermaid, Little Mermaid, and now Barbie. But everyone just needs to be ready. That movie is going to be my personality for all of August.

[B]

I think it's going to be the entire homosexual personality for the rest of the summer. It already is.

[A]

It's. We've decided. But we digress. Will and Jordan. Yeah, we can identify. Yeah, totally.

[B]

Yeah. No, I mean, I. That whole experience of making an idol out of somebody who doesn't deserve it and, and then sort of being given the opportunity to discover it on your own is.

[A]

Yeah, he never discovers it, though.

[B]

Sadly, he does not. We as an audience discover it.

[A]

But.

[B]

Yeah, but no, he does not discover it. His. His obsession remains in place. How does it event is. Does it just end because Will starts a job at a different place. Pretty.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Will. Jordan. So Jordan meets Will and then like, tries very hard to find a way to, like, connect with him. Especially after the office pool party, which is very Gatsby esque.

[B]

Well, and it's. Sorry to interrupt you. It's. It's. It really is that whole annoying thing and it, and it, it's addressed at one point in the show not with. With Will, but with. With another person where, like there sometimes really is that feeling when you're like the gay and there's another the gay and you're like, supposed to know each other or connect somehow because you have that quote unquote in common. But like.

[A]

Well, yeah, it's because there's another office gay that Jordan can't stand. That Jordan can't stand the hey gay. Yeah, the. The hey girl. And. And can't what? He can't say stop Saying, oh, my God, is that what it is? Every time. Every time. HE laughs. Yeah, because Kiki's talking about her wedding, the story that Jordan is telling Vanessa. We learn a bit more about the day that Jordan became obsessed with Will while going to the museum with Vanessa and playing their game, which is they look at a painting and they have to pick who they are in the painting. And Vanessa, I forget who Vanessa says in her. In her decision, but Jordan, someone.

[B]

She's the bird.

[A]

She's the bird. And Jordan is like the flute player off in the corner playing to someone who's asleep and can't even hear it. Right.

[B]

And.

[A]

And Vanessa's like, well, let's unpack that. Like, this is. That's even. She's like, that's even more depressing for you than usual. What's going on? He goes, well, it's the office pool party. And he goes. And I even ha. I hate that I have to even say that. He's like, it's just so weird and like adult and corporate. But then because he's a manic person, he admits, like, in the same breath, it's also kind of nice. He's like, I hate that I even have to say, like, it's just so gross. But like, it's also kind of nice. And Kiki's talking with the other office gay who he can't stand about her wedding, and he's like, oh, my God, I can't wait to meet your mother in law. That. And Jordan's like, he's not even invited. But he sees Will come out of the pool and that's when all time stops and he starts. And that's when his obsession begins and he tries to find this way into me, sees Will reading the Pearl harbor book and we're not going to go into the whole monologue because then, like, Jordan does some really creepy stuff with shoes. But it, you know, right in the locker.

[B]

Oh, I know.

[A]

Yeah. Do you want to talk about the shoes?

[B]

No. Well, the only thing I'll say is that he obsesses over his shoes and ends up buying a pair that he keeps in his apartment.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That he eventually throws out a window.

[A]

Sure does. It's his like ceremonial Angela Bassett burning the car where it's like, I mean, he doesn't. He doesn't. He doesn't do it with a plum. But that is his version of it.

[B]

That.

[A]

But so we were getting to how the. How the. How it ends with Will.

[B]

Basically, he.

[A]

He invites Will out to see a movie at some point. A Documentary about the Franco Prussian War, hence Franco Prussian War. And his reasoning for it is basically like, you're into war stuff. I guess this is.

[B]

It sounds Pearl harbor esque.

[A]

It sounds Pearl harbor esque and it's not at all. No, Franco Prussian War was in the. What was it, the 1700s, 1800s, something like that. Yeah, I think it's the late 1700s. Don't quote me on that, guys. If you want to know more about it, you can listen to the Phantom of the Opera episode because that the Franco Prussian War actually has a lot to do with the building of the Opera Garnier, so. And I learned all that in my research for that episode. So listen to her. And I remember none of it. It was two and a half years ago.

[B]

But it's a great episode.

[A]

It was a good episode.

[B]

Know thyself.

[A]

Are you going to talk about what I wanted you to call me before the pot?

[B]

I'm not going to say it unless you provoke me.

[A]

No, we're not going to say it. We love teasing this, but. So he invites Will. They go. And Will's kind of. He can't go. And then eventually he can go and like, you know, to Jordan, it's life or death, you know, drafting these texts, drafting these emails. And Twilight's always like, sure, yeah, whatever. Can't. Sorry. And the joke, obviously, for the audience, as we see. We can see how it means nothing to Will and he has nothing. There's no meaning to any texty sense other than face value when he says, I can't make it. It's not a power play. He probably, like, had other plans now, right? Better plans.

[B]

Maybe he's. Well, I mean, well, and it feeds into his blandness. I mean, he's just a person of few words. Yep.

[A]

And.

[B]

And yeah, and. And it. And it shows us his basic disinterest.

[A]

Absolutely. Because he. He does not view Jordan as a sexual prospect. And most likely because someone like Will is attracted to someone who looks like Will. He is one of those twin gays. And eventually Jordan is able to get him to come out to see the movie. They go. And the date's pretty much a disaster. I mean, not the kind of disaster where you're like, oh, you should go, you know, hide in a ditch somewhere. But like, we as the audience are watching, going this, first of all, because it's not really a date, at least not to Will. Will's just kind of going. And, you know, he's hanging out with a co worker. Exactly. That's exactly what it is to Will. And to Jordan, it's a date. And Jordan, he's like, Jordan changes his outfit 9 million times before he goes, only to see that Will shows up in the same clothes he had from work. And they go. And Jordan offers to Jordan, buys the tickets. Will's like, oh, I can pay for my ticket. He goes, no, you can get the popcorn. Will doesn't eat popcorn. So now Jordan's feeling fat because he wanted popcorn. Right. They watch the movie. It's a bad documentary, but it moves Jordan in a way because he's, he looks at the, I mean, sort of how I kind of view stuff sometimes was like, the world is so large and so many people have lived on it. And how many of those people ever get to, you know, forget even being remembered, but get to accomplish what they hoped to accomplish, get some of the things they wanted to get? So many never did. Yeah. And Jordan's realizing this, watching this documentary about the Franco Prussian War, watching these men who died for a war that they probably, you know, didn't even really know what they were fighting for to begin with. History has forgotten so much of the meaning of that war in general. Like, you know, Jordan's not a dumb. Dumb. So for him to not know what the Franco Prussian War means, majority of people his age don't. And he's like. And these men lost their lives for it. And here we are sitting around forgetting about it. It's like. And that's just really crushing. And so it makes him cry. And in his mind, that makes Will think of him in a new light. Like he's soft and he's, and he's deep. And I don't think Will actually does.

[B]

No.

[A]

Will's just sort of like, huh, that made you cry.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, Jordan spends the date just really grasping at straws completely. They, they, they go out for a drink afterwards. There's like, they have a couple of very minor things in common.

[A]

Yeah. Well.

[B]

Oh, because, because Will is from Maine.

[A]

Yeah. And Jordan doesn't know Maine at all. He knows Portland. Right.

[B]

And he. I doesn't. He. Maybe it's just that he likes New England. I can't remember. But.

[A]

Oh, he says, oh, in Poland Spring. Right, Right.

[B]

Yeah. He, he's. They spend the entire day trying to grasp at straws and ultimately end like on a corner saying goodnight to each other. And Jordan kind of has half haphazardly going in for a kiss. And with Will being like, well, bye.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it, it's, it's, it's a failure of a date.

[A]

Yeah. I Will say to be not. Not fair to Will. I have also been on the other end of that where I've gone out with someone who I thought was a friend.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And like, either a dinner or a drink or whatever. And at the end, they've either made a move or they've reached out later that night via text or Instagram. Just being like, so, like, all cards on the table. Super into you. And I thought tonight was magical. I was like, oh, I thought we were friends and today was just hanging out. I'm so sorry.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. There's. There's always that moment when. When you realize that the other person thinks that it's something more than what it is.

[A]

But see, that's the thing is I'm. I'm a pretty intuitive person. I have had moments where I never. I just didn't realize it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Well.

[B]

And, you know, I. There are. There are some people in my life who, at one time or another. Not specific people that I'm close to, but, like, people whom I've met at parties or whatever, who have said, let's hang out sometime. And I can tell based on that interaction.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That there's an interest there. And I'm like, I don't want to lead you on and go out with you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because that would just be. I don't know.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

I don't want to feed your flame.

[A]

Yeah. It's. It's shittier now for me because not to. This is not any kind of boast, is just, like, the fact of the matter. I get a lot of those, like, we should totally hang out from certain gays. And it is very much like a drink and chill vibe. And until that moment, I'm like, oh, I thought we were becoming friends, but I don't think that's what you're interested in. I don't even think you're interested in dating me. I think you're interested in, like, getting naked with me for a night and then, like, then I'll never hear from you again. And that kind of sucks.

[B]

The first half of that is fun.

[A]

The getting naked and getting naked is.

[B]

Fun, but the other part, not so much.

[A]

Depends who you're getting naked with.

[B]

Well, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And I don't know. Sometimes I'm not in the mood to get naked. Sometimes I don't feel like my body is meant to be seen. Correct. There are days when I'm like, no, she doesn't.

[B]

I'm agreeing for myself, not for you.

[A]

You can agree. For me.

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

We Are those kind of friends now? You're allowed to say that?

[B]

I would. No, I would not say that to you, no. But, but I, I, I completely understand. There are, yes, plenty of times when you, like, reach that point of the evening and you're like, oh, these clothes ain't coming off. Yeah, this is not tonight.

[A]

But anyway, like, did you see, you didn't see sign in Sidney Bruste's window, did you?

[B]

I missed it.

[A]

It's a shame. Rachel Brosnahan has a sister in it who's a sex worker. Tony Award. No. Yeah, that's the older sister. Yeah. No, not, not Miriam Silverman, Daddy. No, the younger sister who's a sex worker who shows up in Act 2 for a period. And there's a moment where she thinks she's, like, really connecting with one of the characters. It's like super late at night, and she's. This is clearly like a woman who's still a kind of a young girl in a lot of ways. Kicked puppies sort of thing. And she thinks she's found, like, a moment with this, with this person that is just real and honest and something close to friendship, even though it's. They've just met and it's late at night, and then he makes her an offer and you can just watch the hope drain out of her face. And that is something that happens to me sometimes with, with some people in this world that said, like, that's not really what Jordan said. Like, Jordan's coming at this with Will much more romantically speaking.

[B]

Yeah, he is definitely a hopeless romantic. And yeah, not coming at it from a, from a thirst perspective.

[A]

Although one wonders if the second guy that Jordan goes out with, who he does have a legitimate connection, what that's about, because that relationship ends before it could ever begin.

[B]

And that's the saddest part of the show for me.

[A]

It's very sad and it's very relatable. I've had that happen. But that, again, that has happened to me after the physical has happened. And I wonder, part of me wonders if that happened with Jordan because it's never said and it's never shown because they have the date. They have plans for the next date. And you don't know if he's told this on the date, if he's told this before the date, that this guy's like, I can't date you. I'm not over my ex. I'm not in a spot to date anybody. Right. Because Jordan is, like, despondent and it happens very quickly. It's a great moment that Gideon does. And it's difficult for any actor because he has to go from giddy to distraught in five seconds because he meets this guy who he knew from pre. College or. No, from, like, an internship or something.

[B]

School or something, like, early 20s, who's.

[A]

Moving to New York or. And Jordan reached out to him on Facebook, and they go for a drink, and it goes great. Like, it's a legitimate date that actually hits off well, which I also like. They show that because it shows that, like, Jordan is not a disaster of a human. He's capable of being a human being and connecting with somebody. Yeah. He's just so desperate to find it that he's, you know, trying to make, you know, flowers out of a rock. And with this guy, it's a legitimate opportunity. They do have a connection. It's. It's real. And then before it can ever really begin, the guy. We find out that the guy has told him that he can't date him because he's not over his ex and he needs to be on his own. And of course, the question is, when was this said? We don't know how much time has passed. Was this said before their second date? Was the. Said during the second date? Did they have the second date and have sex? And then he told him. Because that has also happened to me, where I have. Where I've been with. Where I. Two people can name names. Not gonna do it. But not because they're famous. They're not, but they are in the theater world. But, like, had amazing first dates. Like, the kind of dates where you're like, holy. Like, this is a great connection. Texting constantly. We go on. We go on an amazing second date. Then a third date happens. Things get physical, and they get very withdrawn. And I call. I had to call both of them out six years apart. You thought I would have known better by now, but here we are. And they both said, like, I'm not over my ex. I'm like, oh, did you. So you waited to discover this until after we hooked up.

[B]

I want people to. If you're listening to this and you're considering doing that to somebody, just come up with a better excuse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because that is a more hurtful excuse than most that you could give to somebody who is. Who you. You know, is genuinely into you.

[A]

Yep. First of all, if you're not into that, just stop. Just stop it. If you are into them and. And something else happens, that's something else. But also, like, oh, it took being naked with me for you. To go, wow, I miss my ex.

[B]

Man, do I feel great about myself right now.

[A]

Yep. Looking at, looking at your body, I thought to myself, God, my ex had an amazing body. Like, go fuck yourself, man.

[B]

I miss my ex's dick. Gotta go.

[A]

Listen, no one has ever said that about my dick. Looking at my dick. No one has ever said, oh man, I missed this other dick. Everyone has always been very into it.

[B]

You heard it here first.

[A]

You heard it here first, everybody. It's on main. It's on the pod. No one has zero complaints. People have dinged that dong. Five stars on Uber. Uber. Yeah. It gets around to quote in the Heights, he's packing a stretch limousine.

[B]

Thank you, Andrea.

[A]

Yes. And Daphne for being, for being all inclusive. Daniela for being all Daphne. Ruben Vega played her in the movie All Inclusive.

[B]

I know, it was just the Andrea delivery.

[A]

Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. But yeah, so that's just one of those. But those plot lines ultimately are not, in my opinion, the most important plot lines of the play. No, no, I think one of the major themes of the play and there are, that's this is like the umbrella of which other things are underneath this. So we'll talk about all of it in general, but like the relationship, the friendship between a gay man and a straight woman is a very complicated one because it can be so wonderful. But life has a way of constantly trying to pull you apart from each other. And I think it's something maybe I'm projecting, but I don't think I am because of all the gays I've spoken to, it's something that I think gay men are far more aware of than straight women and I. And to be honest, it's one of those things where. And I'll talk about my life experience as well in a second. But like when the world is made for you, you're not aware of it. You just think that's how the world works. And the world's not made for women. It's a misogynistic world. We know this. But it is made for heteronormativity.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Custom made. Like 5 star hotel, turn down service, chocolate on the pillow. And it's not really for queer people. We've had to constantly not just fight, but also bend. We've had to figure out ways to maneuver ourselves into our straight friends lives.

[B]

Well, I mean, you know, growing up, I'm sure you would say yes to this. Like the, the all of the rom coms that came out that you're like superimposing your emotions into on A straight couple.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where, where you're like, oh, I want to feel that way about somebody. But it's not, it's not two gay people on screen. No Meg Ryan and somebody. You know, it's, it's, it's having to project. Whereas a straight person could watch that and go, oh, that's just like me and my husband or, or what, you know, it's. And so, so yeah, growing up gay even, and even now to a large extent there, there's still a lot of just, you know, having to find a way to project yourself onto that scenario to make it more relatable to you.

[A]

Or just a way to exist. Like I, the people in my life who I am friends with, first of all, friendship in general takes work. Right? Like, but the work is not hard if you love each other and care about each other. It's like, no, like I just make, I remind myself to text you, I remind myself that I should see you in person again. And you know, with good friends you can go a while without seeing each other in person and it's fine.

[B]

Some of my closest friends I don't see for months. Yeah, years.

[A]

And then I put your communication with them.

[B]

Sure, yeah.

[A]

You're, you're in each other's lives. I mean, I've got people who still will call themselves my friends where it's like I can't get you on the phone. I, and I like and I make an effort and I just can't. It can't be that kind of one sided thing anymore. At least not at this point in my life. I can't put in 90 of the effort. It has to be more than that because I learned in my life and watching this play, it's very much the same again with queer people, with the straight people in our lives, we do have to find a way to maneuver our ways into their lives as, as things keep going. Because when you are single, you have a lot in common. You're both single, you're young, you both like men. But then one of you finds a partner. Usually it's going to be the woman first that already is slightly different. But as each milestone that you have in life comes along, your lives get further and further apart. So this, okay, so this is, well, this is where I'll get into my own life. And it's important only in the sense that it actually mirrors a plot line in the play, which we'll talk about. So my best friend, who I did see significant other with in 2015, still my best friend, everything's all good. And I actually, I saw her this afternoon, by the way, and I asked her if it was okay if I could talk about this. And she said yeah. So we did. So we're good. So, like, I want everyone to know, like, do not, do not feel sad. This was a moment that was actually very mature on both of our parts. I was very happy about this. So I have had a couple of friends get married and I didn't really have any part in any of those weddings, which was fine. They're, you know, I'm, we're close. But I would, I didn't think I would be really part of their weddings. One wedding. I was like the chaperone for one of the buses from the hotel to the space because it was an out of town wedding. Sure. It was sort of like, hey, can you like make sure that everyone's on the bus? I was like, yeah, sure.

[B]

Did you get a clipboard?

[A]

I did actually.

[B]

Yes, I know. See, that's.

[A]

They gave me a prop. So I'm like, okay, you know, you knew what you were doing.

[B]

If you want to put me in charge of something, give me a clipboard. I am, I'm in.

[A]

But also, like, Ethan, I was happy to do it. It was fine. Because usually people go, well, the invitation is, is the proof of our love for you. It's like, sure. And I can make sure to remind me to talk about my friend Josh in a second in terms of like actual straight people who are fake about this. But when my best friend got engaged, I remember telling her we were drunk on New Year's and I was like, oh, I'll play any part you want in your wedding because I'm there to support you. But I did think that my role in her wedding would reflect my role in her life, which is that she is my best friend. And I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. I am hers. She, I, if we want to be more like congenial, like top five for her, for sure. Like, definitely top five. And when they were planning the wedding, it took a while for everyone to figure out what roles they were going to be getting. And I realized pretty soon I wasn't going to be in her bridal party. I wasn't going to be officiating. I was going to be asked to be a groomsman, which is fine. You're still in the wedding. Right. And you know, he is such a lovely guy. He is my friend as now as well, but. And he like, he this really cute way of like asking me to be a groom and like, he made me, like, a gift, and he wrote a little card. Like, when it comes to asking someone to be in your party could not do it any better. Like, and any more text message. I don't know. It was like, he. And the part of the reason why it took so long for me to find out was because, like, everyone was finding out throughout the summer. And it wasn't until September that I found out about mine. And I was like, I know what it's going to be. Just tell me. They're like, no, no, no. We have a whole thing. And it's because he, like, ordered something, and it was taking for a while to get back. Like, speaking of Smile, he made. He ordered. He had. Sorry. He had made for me a notebook with the script of Smile on the COVID Oh, that's like. Like, went above and beyond. These are. These are. These are good, wonderful people who are truly my closest friends. And yet I was kind of a little bummed. I was a little sad, and I couldn't figure out why for a minute. And I had finally. I had just joined the New York City gay men's course at that point. So it was. And. Which was very lucky that I did, because I was asking my female friends who were all a part of this wedding, either they were a bridesmaid or singing or. And all of the responses were, it's not about you. Stop making it about you. Which I wasn't trying to do because I hadn't even told Sarah yet my feelings. I was. I was trying to figure out why I was feeling what I was feeling before I ever talked to her about it. And I just feel like I can't understand. Like, I'm. I'm. I don't feel great about it, and I don't know why. And the response is, all of a sudden, it's. It's not about you. Stop making this about you. Which is. I knew it wasn't about me, right? But I also assumed that my friends would hear that I wasn't feeling great and would hear me out and try to figure it out with me, rather than just shut it down immediately. And I spoke to a few members of the chorus who I was becoming friendly with, and they were like, I've been there. Let me tell you why. And they said, that wedding is the last day. Your best friend and you have lives that are parallel that day on. They are going to become perpendicular, and it's just gonna go further and further apart from there. She's gonna have a baby, and she's pregnant. So she's gonna have a baby. And she's like, and no, even if you get married and you, and you do want to have kids, like it's not going to be as easy. You have to adopt, you have to do a surrogate. Like it's, it's a process. And even so, like you're further behind than she is in that respect. Even if you want it or don't want it. So it would. And so they said, what I'm understanding is that you were hoping on the last day that your lives are parallel, you could reflect in on that day who you are in her life. And she ultimately chose not to do that. She ultimately chose gendered wedding parties. Mm. And said to me, but I want you at my bridal shower. I want you getting ready with me on the day. And it's like, cool, then why am I not in your party? Because I love her husband. He's great. He's so fucking dope. I, I consider him a friend, one of my closest friends. But he's my friend because of her, not the other way around. And I realized this, I internalized it. And then I also thought about, this is something I could only come to realize with the gays around me who have been in this position before. And I could have maybe figured it out on my own, but none of the women in my life were willing to let me figure it out. It was just shut down. And then someone else who was a friend at the time just said to me, matt, you know these girls, they love us, they do, but ultimately they've been thinking of their weddings for years. And, and we're all, listen, we're all self centered, right? We're all the protagonists of our stories. Everything is ultimately in our own self interest. Just the sooner we all can accept that, the sooner we can be healthier because we can, we can try to go against that as often as we can and think of others as often as we can. But we are ultimately self centered. We're the protagonists of our own movies. And he said, these girls, they see Meg Ryan, they see Julia Roberts. And it's not that, it's, you know, those movies are what do it that make them think this way. But ultimately that day is the biggest day of their life until that point. And they had a vision of how it was going to look and they, they're going to do that no matter what. And I don't want to throw women under the bus in general. My other friend, godmother of the pod, Ali Gordon, she had gays in her bridal bridal party. I was at her bachelorette party. Like it. There are women who are willing to do that, but also there are women who don't. And they don't do it maliciously. Which, if they did it maliciously, that would be easier, because then you could get angry and it could be a fight. But they. It's when it. Someone hurts you, and they. Unintentionally. Someone who's really close, because let me be very clear to you, the GOP is not going to make me cry. They can try to strip my rights away as much as they want. It just makes me exhausted. I'm like, I'm going to still be alive. Go fuck yourself. I'm still standing. You can't get no hot take. You can't get rid of the queer community. It's genetic. Either figure that out or, you know, jump off a cliff.

[B]

Deal with it.

[A]

Deal with that. But the people you let in, the people who get inside of you, who you are vulnerable with, who then hurt you in even the smallest of ways, that is something that is really difficult to sometimes comprehend. And that's the stuff that makes me cry. Now, let me be very clear. We figured this out. I still was a groomsman on the day, and her wedding got postponed due to something called Covid. But, you know, she and I had a talk about it when I realized what it was, and I. And I came to this conclusion and I sat her down. You know, we went to the ballet, which was our tradition for a long time, and we got drinks afterwards, and I talked her about it, and it was all good. We. She understood. We figured it out. She was like, I want you to know that's not what it was. He really wanted you in his. In his party. I was like, yeah, but, like, let's be honest for a second. And it's. It. They'll come and we'll get to this. Because of the fight Jordan and Laura have in Act 2. It's one of those things where, like, real life, if you are honest and think through it and. And you want to hold on to your friendships, the actual conversations are not traumatic. They are so boring. Yeah. And that's ultimately where it's at. So, like, it's something that is. It's part of our history. And, like, I've hurt her in the past unintentionally. And it's just. It's one of those things, like, we're. We're so good now, but it's just a fact. Like, we don't deny It. It happened. She knows that that wedding up and no. For a minute was a little hurtful. But we figured it out. We got over it. And then a year and a half later, she got married. And on the day, it could not have been lovelier, and I gave a speech and it was wonderful.

[B]

So when, you know, when you went out for drinks and divulge this information to her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Were you like, so remember back in summer, summer of 2017, we went and saw that play 2015. Oh, you. This was the Pels that you saw with her. Yeah. Okay. Remember back in summer of 2015 when we saw that play and that gay totally freaked out at that girl who was getting married and like. And she screamed at him and then they both cried and.

[A]

And then he still went to the wedding.

[B]

And then he still went to the wedding. I'm feeling that way with you right now.

[A]

Yeah. Well, so, yeah, we can. Let's jump all over the place. This is ultimately the plotline when Laura Lindsay Mendes gets married herself. We find out at the end of act one that she has met a guy named Tony, a fellow teacher, and.

[B]

She considers herself the least likely of this friend group to get married, as we've already sort of said. But she even, like, self. Admittedly sort of calls herself a school marm. She views herself as being rather plain.

[A]

Yeah. And.

[B]

And introverted.

[A]

She's. She doesn't dress hyper sexually. Yeah. She wears very boxy clothes. But the. And it's really smart costuming. Like, as she meets Tony, her. Her. It's not that her costume becomes sluttier, but, like, she becomes less marmy. She's more confident in herself and she's able and she. She walks about and she's styled in a much more mature and confident way, which is great.

[B]

And it's really subtle, actually.

[A]

It is. The. The. A lot of thought went into it, and I love that because it's not. Doesn't hit you over the head. I love that. Doesn't hit you over the head. Unless it is Lee Pace. He can hit me over the head anytime he wants. And he is 9, 000ft tall, so he could. But.

[B]

Say it again.

[A]

Ding. Dion, we need to bring that back. Thank you. But. So, you know, Laura gets engaged to Tony, you know, Midway through Act 2, I want to say. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

After Vanessa's wedding.

[B]

I think we find out about it at Vanessa's wedding.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

Oh, no, that's right. It's. It's when they're. It's. We find out that he's gonna propose after Vanessa's wedding. After Vanessa's wedding. Laura and the. And what's his name?

[A]

Mike. Tony.

[B]

Tony.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Laura and Tony are over at Jordan's apartment for dinner.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And they. And they both separately make an excuse to have to come back and talk to Jordan.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

She says, I forgot my sweater, and comes back and says, what do you think of him? Tell me everything.

[A]

I need to know. I need to know.

[B]

I need to know. And then. And leaves. And then Tony shows up and is like, oh, yeah, babe, I dropped my keys. Hold on one second. And he asks what kind of ring Laura would want.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's sort of when the bomb gets dropped on Jordan that this is impending.

[A]

Yes. And in a sweet moment, you know, Laura could have brought Tony to Vanessa's wedding. That's how we actually find out about Tony is. Oh, right.

[B]

Because the Tony reveal is at Vanessa's Bachelor at present.

[A]

Because Vanessa is saying like, oh, who you're gonna. Who are you going to bring? And Jordan says, I'm. Laura's my date. And she goes, well, now she. Now she brings Tony. And Jordan doesn't. That's the first kind of, like, hurtful thing, is that Jordan doesn't know about Tony.

[B]

She's so weird. She.

[A]

Laura's been with Tony probably, like, for a month at that point.

[B]

She says they've been seeing each other for. For a few weeks.

[A]

Yeah. Which could mean anything. That could be between three and eight. Maya's, you know, but, like, you know what I mean? Yeah, I know. Such specific numbers. But, like, when it's. When it's three weeks, it's like, that's still early.

[B]

Between three and eight.

[A]

Sounds good. Sounds good, but you know what I mean? But, like, three. It's like, okay, you've been on, like, a handful of dates. It's still relatively new. You like each other, but he's not real yet.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But when it becomes, like, two months, it's like, no, no, no. You're staying the nights at each other's places. You. You talk every day.

[B]

Like, the fact that it's obvious that she's divulged it to both of the female friends and not to him is, yes. Not cute.

[A]

It's not cute. And he even says, like, why? When she comes back with Kiki, the first words out of his mouth are, why didn't you. Who's Tony? Who's Tony? And it takes, like, three. It takes three asks for her finally to, like, sit down, like, oh, he's a guy I'm seeing. And then he's like, why didn't you tell me? And then she doesn't respond. And then. Okay, so this, this will talk about end of act one for a second. End of act one is Vanessa's bachelorette party. And it's all very nice and we'll talk. I want to talk about Vanessa's bit later when she talks about she doesn't like social norms and like you're doing them. But we find out about Tony, the guy that Laura is dating. And Vanessa is engaged, about to be married. And Kiki is fully married, like probably a year in at this point.

[B]

She's pregnant?

[A]

No, she's not pregnant yet.

[B]

Oh, she's pregnant at the Adventist's wedding?

[A]

Yes, I think she's. She's definitely pregnant at Laura's wedding. She's like eight months in. I think she's. I think she's. She might be trying to get. I think she knows she's trying to get pregnant. Vanessa's wedding. Right. Because she tries to find Conrad to get. Oh, right.

[B]

She's ovulating.

[A]

She's ovulating. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She like feels the overhead. She's like. But they start talking about. They start. Laura starts talking about how she met Tony for a second, sort of to Jordan, but not really because the way the staging works, you realize is that Vanessa, Kiki and Laura are on a different couch than Jordan. And they just start talking to each other overlapping about their, about their men. Their what? They, you know, the sex, all this other stuff. And the music gets louder, the spotlight tightens on Jordan and them, and they just start talking about whatever overlapping. And then they just start shouting, boyfriend, fiance, husband, boyfriend, fiance, husband, boyfriend, fiance, husband. And then the lights go out. And when I saw it at the Laura Pills theater, I was sitting next to two girls. My Sarah was on the other end. And the two girls just say to each other, oh my God, this place is hysterical. And I turned to them and I said, this play is devastating. Oh my God. And honestly, that is significant other in a nutshell is two straight girls seeing it and going, oh my God, so funny. And me crying my eyes out.

[B]

Well, did you ask them how they felt after. After the, after the Act 2?

[A]

No. They probably were like, what's his problem? He's reading a poem at her wedding. What the.

[B]

But so he's so whiny.

[A]

He's so whiny. It's not about him, but. So the point is, is that the next, as you said, like it begets. It gets real when Tony says You know, what kind of ring would you want? And then Tony says something where, you know, that he thinks he's being really sweet and it is such a dagger.

[B]

In the heart because Tony isn't. Is a good guy.

[A]

He is a. I'm a good guy. I'm a nice guy. Yeah, that. No, but no, you know, he is. He's a well meaning guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he says to Jordan, thank you so much for all you've done. And Jordan says, oh, it's no problem. You know, I like cooking. Laura doesn't like to cook. Laura doesn't know how to cook. And he goes, no, no, I mean like for taking care of her all these years, she's in good hands now. Which is. I know he's earnest and means well. It is condescending and it's like, thanks for keeping her warm up the hook. Thank you, thank you for keeping her warm till someone real came along. Huh? It's God. I mentioned this in the title of the show episode about the person who had said to me, thinking they were going to get the Nobel Peace Prize for how they were talking to me, saying, it's such a shame we had to meet this way. We could, under different circumstances. My person and I could have introduced some of our lovely gay friends. And then before.

[B]

Oh, right.

[A]

And then before hanging up with me saying, I don't know what it is you're looking for, a partner, a lover, what have you, but I hope you find someone who really does love you. And then hangs up and what a cunt. And before anyone comes for Adam, just know my mother.

[B]

Sorry, my mom.

[A]

No, my mom said the exact same thing and she.

[B]

Thank you, Danny.

[A]

She uses that word once every five years. And also I will say speaking my friend Josh, this is the same person who has known my. So I know this. I know my friend Josh now sort of because of this person in ways as well as another person. But Josh has known this, let's call it like we sees it this kind for the last seven years and has known the person that they eventually married for longer. Has known the person that this person is married to for 13 years. Got to know this gopher for. Because of their relationship and very close with them like they were in a. They were Covid zoom pods with other people. They get. They get engaged and Josh is on a wait list to be at the wedding. It is not until a month before the day that he gets called up and says, can you make it? And there are reasons why. We both know why we've talked about it, it's. But, but just like fully vile. And what. This is somebody who like, whereas my friend was leading with love and you know, it's not that she made a mistake, just, you know, it. Some unintentionally did something that hurt and we talked about it and it was fine. This gopher is a fake ass person who says things like lovely gay friends who says things like, I hope you find someone who really does love you, who puts their gay friend on a wait list so that their straight, slightly more famous friends can hopefully make it to their wedding. That is what we call bullshit. And this is why sometimes we gays get angry at straight culture. However, I need to put that in my back burner so people don't think that I have a vendetta against heteronormativity. I don't. This is just someone who has taken what the world is offering them, the turn down pillow service at the five star resort and being like, oh my God, thank you so much. Can my gay friend sleep in the bungalow like, like outside, please? Yes.

[B]

And, and, and, and full disclosure, anybody listening? I've, I've heard in depth the story, so I don't use that word lightly either.

[A]

It's no. This person has earned the title and Adam is not the only person who's heard this story. A lot of other people have this, this story is out there. It's out there and if you want to hear more about it, it is in the play. Both of those quotes are in my play. Love the lovely gay friends and the hope you find someone really does love you. Because I, first of all, I remember hearing it and thinking to myself, wow, that was condescending. But I'm not sure if like she means, if she's, if she's just making the saying the wrong words. And then as time went on and other things were revealed, I was like, no. She chose her words very carefully and she knew what she was saying. And I put them in my play because I just was like, at the end of the day, those are good lines to put in.

[B]

I was gonna say, did you have a moment like in all that jazz when Roy Scheider is yelling at. That is. Is fighting with Ann ranking for sleeping for her sleeping with somebody else. And she says, I just wish you weren't so generous with your.

[A]

I mean like, that's a good line.

[B]

That's a good line. I gotta use that.

[A]

Yep. No, Absolutely no. That was. Listen, she'll see the play at some point and she'll be like, did I say that? That doesn't sound like me. I'm like, oh, you said it. Wrote it down and everything. Because she said a whole lot of other stuff that I just remember thinking to myself, like, this is kind of bonkers. But it, it's so wild that I have to remember as much as I can because I could never come up with dialogue like this. So I have to write it down and I did. And it's honestly one of the more compelling moments of the play. Not to boast, but it's the scene that it goes on for nine pages and everyone's like, I wanted it to be shorter and longer at the same time. But we digress. Laura, basically, you know, Vanessa and Kiki both have Jordan Reed poems at their weddings.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And Laura, Dr. Seuss. Dr. Seuss for Kiki's one. Yes, most likely are the places you'll go. For Laura, he's doing the same and it clear. And there's a lot of stuff going on. At Laura's bachelorette party. Jordan is in a bad place because of his own romantic life. He is watching his friends succeed but also move on without him. Him in, in their own ways. Because there are also all these, I don't want to call them microaggressions but like these moments where you go, you know, yeah, like your friends are going to up sometimes and, and, but also like sometimes the street women in your life. Don't forget sometimes that you're a complicated person who's not just going to go off with the other gay. Like when at Vanessa's Bachelorette, she says to him, like, I have someone to send you up with at the wedding. It's so and so. And he's. And he's like, are you only setting him up with me because he's the only other gay there? And she's like, no, kinda. And like it's sort of meant to be a joke in the play but like it's unfortunate that you're, you know, super intense friend. It's like that's what it comes down to. And she's like, but he's such a nice guy. He goes, so that's code for ugly. She's like, no, yeah, he's kind of ugly. And it's like, oh, cool. So you wanted to set your close friend up with someone who you thought wasn't attractive just because he's gay? Not right.

[B]

Well, no, it's like I was talking about earlier when it's like that's, that's the thing you have in mind, the.

[A]

Thing you have in Common. They're both the gays. And, And I mean, that's all the reason why Kiki's like, oh, you should date the new guy at the office. He's gay. He seems gay. And, you know, Laura's the one that Jordan really has always had, like, the more honest conversations with. And we'll talk about this in the final scene later with the one line he has where I'm like, oh, they've, like, they've. They went through a very dark period in Jordan's life at one point that he made it out of because of Laura. And despite all this, he's still just going to read a poem at the wedding, but is still expected to go to her bridal shower, her engagement party. Two engagement parties. They have one in New York and one in, like, Baltimore for her family, I think, plus the bachelor party, plus gifts for all of them. And then also flying out to a destination wedding for a long weekend. Right.

[B]

It's lots of traveling, plus expenses on top of that.

[A]

And he's just. And he's expected to be there. So all of this is going on in addition to all the other stuff. And Jordan says to Vanessa at one point at her bachelor party, he's like, just don't forget about me. She goes, I'm thinking about you all the time. Like, I just tried to set you up. It's like, that's. No, you're not. That's shallow. You're thinking about him, but you're not thinking about him. And ultimately what he means by that line is there is. We were. We were talking about this earlier about, you know, in this world of heteronormativity, it is so difficult sometimes to just exist. And, and when your friends are straight, you always have to find ways to. You to find crevices to get in there to like, stick your flag in and just be a part of their lives, even when they're making an effort as well. Like, it's no one's fault. It's just that's sort of how it works. Especially if you are not in a marriage yourself with kids, like, if you are single and just trying to figure it out. And for me, maybe not all queers feel this way, but I feel this way. I have always had this very intense phobia of just, like, being erased from people. People I know you know, of just, like people who you care about, who meant so much to you, just being forgotten and, and, and again, fully erased. And. And that's not just straight people, that's gay people. Like friends. You get over the years. Sometimes you fall out with people, but when it's just so if. Sometimes it feels like it's so easy for people to let go of you and that is really shitty.

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean here, here's, here's my quick side of, of things when it comes to stuff like that and friends, marriages. So my best friend who is gay. He's a gay.

[A]

He's a, you know.

[B]

Is he.

[A]

He is.

[B]

So he and his now husband met at a holiday party that we were all at. And I, it's. And I, and I, a couple of close friends of mine just moved away who were also at this party and we were reminiscing about it recently where it was kind of hilarious where we all saw it happen and I don't know that I've ever experienced that before with, with anybody where like everyone like gazes over and goes, oh, they're into each other. Like where you watch the connection happen. And he and I had been incredibly close friends for about two and a half, three years and he was the closest friend that I had since moving to New York. I, he was the first person that I met that I felt like I really connected with on a level where it wasn't, you know, I mean, I, I'd hobnobbed and made acquaintances and you know, lots of friends that loved, that loved theater and things that were, you know, not face value conversation but, but things that, that didn't run as deep as, as, as other topics. And this was the first person that I, that I met that sort of met me on every level. And we, we met on a date, but it didn't, it, but it wasn't romantic. Like we just, it, we never felt that and, but we recognized both of us that it was, it was too good to let, to say good to let go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just. And just completely write each other off. And so over the course of like two and a half years, we, we became close, close, close friends. We were each other's plus one to everything and you know, and, and, and it was complicated for a little bit, but ultimately on the other, we just were besties. And when he met this person at this party, I had an association with that per. That person through an old roommate of mine. And I was like, oh, interesting. Okay. I wouldn't have imagined this happening. But great and fast forward, they'd been dating for four years, five years, and the, the other half of the two of them had gone out to California to start working at a job. And ultimately my best friend I knew was Going to relocate and move out there. But the partner came back to New York for a holiday and for a party, and they had everybody over, and we're all up on the roof and having drinks. And apparently a couple people knew about this, but I didn't know. I wasn't informed because they didn't want me to spoil it for my friend. But the other one was proposing to him at this party on the roof. There is a video that exists. I'm not proud of it. You can't really hear it unless, you know, unless. Unless it's pointed out to you. But one of our close friends was standing next to me and filming the whole thing. Filming the whole. Why do we still say filming? Recording the whole thing on his iPhone. And he.

[A]

The. The.

[B]

The other of the two got on his knee, and you can hear me go, I'm not proud of this. I'm not proud of this. I've told them about this. This is not a secret.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

But it was in very short form, that moment of, oh, I've lost this person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And I had already felt that our friendship had grown apart because he had already moved in with him in Brooklyn, so he lived way further away than he did before. It was, you know, like our. Our lives had already started to separate, and then they were moving to another coast. And then it was. So it was just like. Like layer on layer on layer. And for some reason, even, like, the moving to the other coast should have been the big thing, but it was the proposal that was like, sealing the deal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that was. And it was just like knife. And then, you know, I ended up being my best friend's best man at the wedding.

[A]

And.

[B]

And I was involved and I felt included. But I did have that feeling, especially, you know, even just standing up at the. In front of the crowd at the. At the. The ceremony going, oh, this is. This is final. Like, you're. Even. Even the. The closest of friends are going to have to reconfigure their life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, and, And. And he's somebody. He's who I was referring to earlier when it's like somebody you don't talk to for weeks or months at a time. But I know that when he and I are finally able to, like, schedule a time to get on a phone together that we're going to talk for five hours because we'll have to catch up, but it feels like no time has passed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so. But I. But I remember, you know, reading Jordan's frustrations with With Laura, which I know we're getting to shortly, but, but being like, man, have I felt that before? Yeah, it's, it's not a fun feeling. Well, and I have. And I, and I'll also say on the other side of things, a friend whose name I will not say, but somebody who, who I still care, Care about very much. This is, here's my therapy session moment, but a friend who I still care about very much, who, when I started to see my current boyfriend, my live in boyfriend, he decided that I was too busy for him, which was not true. But rather than talk to me about it, he just stopped talking to me, which was equally hurtful. And so it was kind of like reverse significant other almost. But I felt like he had created this narrative that Jordan Berman has created a little bit in this show where it's like, you know, he's decided that he's being written off and I'm like, I never wrote you off. Yeah, I'm, I'm right here. Call me, text me, you know, so that was why in watching the show with you the second time, I had a different reaction to it. Even though there were parts of it that still just instinctually I felt deeply because I'd felt that way in the.

[A]

Past myself.

[B]

Was such a mixed response for me because I was seeing it from two different sides and not, you know, I'm not married, but like, but, but, but I, but it was interesting to see it from the perspective of somebody who ultimately, I'm not going to say he's, he's, he's not playing. He, he never played the victim. But I felt that he had created, created a narrative that wasn't true of the situation.

[A]

Sure. Well, how many of us have done that where we create this? Yeah. Because nobody wants to feel like, oh, I'm the here. It's. How, how am I the victim here? How am I the hero here? How am I the one who's been wronged? And you know, the one thing I will pride myself on in the last, like five years is I. Enough has gone down in my life and I have. And some. And many wonderful things have happened and things haven't happened and things have taken a long time, things that I've worked very hard for, things that, you know, know never came to be. I've got a very strong perspective of who I am as a person. And, you know, when I up, I don't, I've, I have never done anything with mal intent. At least like, not for as long as I can remember. Maybe when I was a child when we're all psychopaths. But in my adult life, I've never done anything with Malato. So if I've done a up, if I've hurt someone, I will apologize. I will listen to what I did so I can learn. Yeah, but it doesn't benefit my narrative to up.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I, I, I would.

[B]

No one wants to look like an.

[A]

No one wants to look like an. But I, I've always. I've, I've tried to do the right thing. And if something is right but doesn't feel right or, you know, whatever, like, I try to own up to it. And even, like, even ugly feelings that we have, we have to acknowledge, because if we ignore them, they just boil over. Which leads us to the Jordan Laura fight scene, which we will talk about after this next break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the field. Ding dong, we're back.

[B]

Ding dong, we're back.

[A]

That was so loud. Well, yes, and there's so much more to discuss in this play, but, yes, this fight. So.

[B]

Well, let's get the fight out of.

[A]

The way so we can talk about other stuff, because the fight's big. So everything that I talked about, what happened with me and Sarah happens to Jordan and Laura times a million. Because. Whereas I thought to myself, hmm, I'm feeling a lot of the same feelings. Let me figure this shit out now so when I tell my best friend about it, she can hear me, understand me, and we can move on from it. I don't want to lose her. I don't want to yell at her. I don't want to make her feel bad. I just need to tell my truth. And that's exactly what happened. And, like, therapy. Gold stars to both of us. It was. I was like, look at us go. No one would ever write a TV show about this moment. It's great.

[B]

You should really get better Help to sponsor this episode.

[A]

No, because my therapist left Better help. And now I have no therapist. So he was, like, in the middle of my, like, breakthroughs and, and needing shit. He was like, so I'm starting a private practice in about three weeks, and. And you can charge you three times as much. Yeah. And like, we, I. He kept on postponing our session. I was like, oh, are you trying to make me? I was like, colton, don't do that. So I just ended it And I ended better help. And so I'm in the need. I'm in need of a new therapist. Better help sponsor me so I can. I can have free therapy.

[B]

Oh, my God, Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Better help.

[A]

Help him. Help. Help me now.

[B]

Help him, please.

[A]

But. So all this shit that we've been talking about is brewing inside of Jordan in addition to his mania and his major depression and even he internalizes a lot of stuff. Yes. And the thing about this is he tries very hard not to have the fight. He excuses himself. I mean, he's being obviously mopey. Everyone's aware that he's going through it.

[B]

He's being dramatic a little bit.

[A]

Yes. But he excuses himself. And when Laura confronts him, rather than say, I'm gonna say what I need to say, he's like, I'm gonna go home. Because I just think, like, I can't. Which, listen, being dramatic and wopey as you are, like, just to recognize that the situation is not for you and you are not helping the situation and saying, like, I'm just gonna remove myself. Yeah, you guys keep having a good time. Because, like, I'm not gonna help with that. Without respect. That. That is an. I would argue, a good move on his part. Yeah. And Laura says to him, you. Which then begins the fight, because she says, this is not any of other friends. This is me. I'm the one getting married. Why are you being this way? And Jordan starts to talk about it in a aggressive way, but not super hurtful yet, where he's basically just saying the truth of, like, you're happy. My life is not where yours is at. And, like, your what? The words he says are, your wedding is my funeral. Can't you understand that? Which is dramatic, but it's true.

[B]

It is.

[A]

It's the dramatic way of what I said, where my friends in the chorus were like, your lives will go from parallel to perpendicular. And her wedding is the death of him as being the number one person in her life.

[B]

That line was when reading the play for the first time, was my Joshua Harmon, like bad Jews. Needle. Needle in the scratch, needle in the heart.

[A]

Yeah, it's Margot Robbie going, you guys ever think about dying? It's that moment where you go, what? All right, you haven't seen the last trailer of Barbie.

[B]

Sorry, I don't want to spoil.

[A]

I know. You've only seen the first two trailers. You didn't see the third one. That's like, the main line in the third trailers. They're all dancing. She goes, you guys ever think about dying? Wow. It's fine. There's no more spoilers.

[B]

Matt ruined all of Barbie for me right now.

[A]

Sure did cancel me. So that line makes Laura kind of guffaw because she doesn't get it. And she's like, this is supposed to be the biggest day of my life so far. Like, why can't you be happy for me, the person I care about the most, my best friend? Which then triggers Jordan saying, don't call me your best friend. We're not best friends anymore. We have been for a while. Which the truth is that they probably. No, they are still best friends. She's always still thought of him as her best friend. What he is saying is, you have not treated me like your best friend for a while now. I have not felt like I've mattered to you. And she's saying, well, you can. She's like, call me, text me. Say you need more time. And he's like, I can't do that because I can't tell you to not be happy. I can't tell you to not be with your fiance.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He's like, but. He's like, but. And. And, like, sure, we hang out a little more right now, but then after the wedding, what happens? You get married, you have a kid, you maybe move away.

[B]

Well. And he makes the point also of, you know, when he's saying, we're not best friends, he's like, you know, when something happens, who do you. Who do you reach out to first? It's him.

[A]

Yeah. When your mom upsets you, you call him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And she's. And she. She rightfully says, like, he's my fiance. He's about to be my husband. Like, why wouldn't I? And he's like, yes, but I used to be that person for you, and I. And you have found someone else now, and I haven't. So, like, you are still that person to me. And now I am fully replaced, Erased, in a way one might say. And, you know, even though Vanessa, Kiki, and Laura have no intention of cutting ties with Jordan, they don't realize how further adrift they are from him than they were. And the reason why they haven't realized that is probably because the three of them are still as close at that moment as they were before. Right. Those three women. I mean, it's.

[B]

Yeah, it's. Well, it's the thing that, you know, sort of comes with being. Being a straight married woman. And then especially, like, once. Once you're a mom, there's the whole thing about, like, oh, my gosh, we're moms. And it's.

[A]

So this is. But. And this is not where I want to vilify women.

[B]

No, no, I'm not saying that to vilify anybody.

[A]

No. But this is true of anybody. Right. Like, you think about why. Why are there clusters, friends? Why are close friends of women? Friends? Like, we. We gravitate towards the people we have the most in common with.

[B]

And there's commonality.

[A]

Yeah, it's. I mean, the number one thing that people always complain about on Sex the City is those women have nothing in common. Why are there. Why are they friends? To which I go, that's actually kind of a goal of mine to have people who are not totally like me to challenge me in my mind frame. Like, we learned this on the show. Like Samantha on her own. If she finds another Samantha, that woman's gonna be dead in a ditch fucking, you know, some random guy in an alleyway. Charlotte. Charlotte on her own, is never gonna have sex again. So they balance each other out. Miranda brings another.

[B]

Motivate each other.

[A]

Carrie is, you know, a romantic, but she's a little hardened. But no, Charlotte brings out the romantic in her. Miranda brings out the realist in her. Charlotte helps soften Miranda. Like, they all help each other in a lot of ways, but still, like, they. They share the female experience and the female response. That is their thing in common. And how they come about it is different. And of course, there's the other thing of, like, most of them, you know, have financial balance and stability so they. They don't have to worry too much about. Money carries the one variable in that. But, you know, Kiki, Vanessa, Laura, they now have men. Vanessa's now married. Laura's about to be married. So they. They can talk about wedding shit. They can talk about, you know, gifts and what to do with things you want to have returned or buying an apartment and all this other stuff. Stuff. And that's not their fault. It's. It's. They don't realize they're doing it. But it's what I talked about earlier, like, when you need to make a little more effort with your friends. And like my. You know, Sarah, we're talking about this today. You know, we have friends that she doesn't talk to as much anymore who are women. So it's not a gender thing necessarily. But I will say with that, with that dynamic of gay men, straight women, like, it is a little harder. It's just a little harder. And. And I do think the work that needs to go into it is something we are More keenly aware of at first than women. And Jordan does not go about a great way of telling Laura, we need to work harder at this because I'm feeling forgotten. And it's not a comment on you're getting married, but, like, I am. I am feeling like I'm about to be erased. He doesn't say that in the super healthiest of ways, but that is what he is. That is what he is saying ultimately. But because Laura keeps pushing him and pushing him and pushing him, he then just goes off on a. A four page tirade where he has a lot of good points, but because he is so violently aggressive about it, all the points he's making get lost in the. In the.

[B]

It's just venom.

[A]

It's venom. Yeah, it's. It's truth coded in venom. And a lot of things he says he doesn't mean, but a lot of things he says he does mean, and there is truth to it. And a lot of people, Laura included, don't end up hearing it. They just hear the hatred. But he talks about how, I am going to all of these events for you. I am buying you all these gifts. I am paying to travel. I have to be at these places for you. And so many. So many other people are doing the exact same. And it's just expected. It's just expected. And this is where, like, kind of the Vanessa thing bugs me too, because Vanessa's whole thing is like, I don't. I don't do the norms. But Vanessa does have an engagement party. She has a bachelorette party. They do get married.

[B]

Standard wedding.

[A]

She has a standard wedding in the white dress. I think they get married in New York though, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because Kiki goes. Kiki's in Kentucky.

[B]

Kentucky.

[A]

Lars is in North Carolina, I think. Yeah. I think Vanessa's stays in town. So that's the one.

[B]

I don't think they mentioned it, but it's. I. It's pretty safe to assume that they probably.

[A]

Yes. But even so, like, does all the other stuff. But she says, like, she's the most.

[B]

New Yorky of the three of them.

[A]

Yeah. Because at Vanessa's bachelor party, they. They do a game. We're like, okay, we asked your fiance these questions. I forget his name.

[B]

Which one?

[A]

Vanessa's fiance. Husband. Oh, God. Fiance, husband.

[B]

Gordon.

[A]

No, I'm gonna look it up. But they say, oh, we asked him these questions and he answered, and now you have to guess what he answered. And it's fun because.

[B]

Right. It's like Newlywed Game without him there.

[A]

Yes. And you know, the joke first is, you know, Vanessa keeps answering these vulgar questions, and then he ends up giving sweet answers. And she's like, okay, he's fucking with. So what's his name? It is Evan. No, Roger. Roger. Roger, Roger. You know. Oh, when did. When did you know Vanessa was the one? She goes, oh, when I let him finger me in the luggage department at Macy's. And she goes. When? It's like when we walk through Central park. And she's like, that fucker is like, oh, my favorite thing about her. My tits, her eyes. Like, he's. And then he says, there's one thing you could change about Vanessa. What would it be? He said he would make you an orphan. That's right. But then Vanessa and Jordan have this alone moment together because she pretends to be upset, and Kiki and Laura like, oh, we'll go get you a drink. And Vanessa laughs. She goes, I wrote those answers to him. And Jordan's like, why did you do that? She goes, because fuck this shit. This is so stupid. And Jordan really loves that because he feels like he's losing her for a second to the conformity of it all. And he is still. Because even though she is complaining, she still does the bachelorette party. She does the bridal shower, the engagement party. She has the wedding in the white dress, and she has a moment of optimism, and they do the dance and they start having a life together, right?

[B]

Oh, well, so what? Since you say that, we should say that at each of the weddings that happens. There's. So there. So Jordan and Laura in the first scene, joke about the sappy song that. That happens with the first dance. So when we're at the first wedding, at Kiki and Conrad's wedding, the song is. What song is it?

[A]

I don't know what the songs are. I don't remember.

[B]

You don't?

[A]

I don't remember. They are.

[B]

I don't remember what they are either.

[A]

But.

[B]

But they're all, like, sort of equally.

[A]

Like, I might have it on my phone because I had to make a playlist for significant other when we did the reading.

[B]

It's not. It's not Breathed by Faith Hill, but it might as well be.

[A]

It's Tracy Chapman, Stand By Me. That's Kiki's wedding. And then it is. I think so. No. Is it?

[B]

I think. No.

[A]

That's.

[B]

That's Vanessa.

[A]

Oh, I know. I hope you dance. Dance.

[B]

I hope you dance.

[A]

Tracy Chapman. Stand By Me is Vanessa's wedding.

[B]

So. So, so, so at Kiki's wedding, the they start to do. I hope you dance. And you watch Laura and Jordan and Vanessa all kind of look at each other and go, oh, Jesus fucking Christ.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they all sort of end up doing this very silly dance together. The, like mock jazz dancing, but during the, the dance, you, Vanessa is greeted by Roger, who is the cousin of Conrad, and, and, and you watch the two of them pair off and make their way off stage. And while Jordan and Laura continue to. Around.

[A]

Yes. And then at Vanessa's wedding.

[B]

At Vanessa's wedding, the Stand By Me plays. And at this point we know that Laura is getting married to.

[A]

I don't think they're engaged yet, but she and Tony are together.

[B]

They're very serious.

[A]

They are very serious.

[B]

And so, you know, I don't even remember if you see Kiki and Conrad dancing. Oh no, she goes off because she's ovulating. But it's a very. But you're left with this awkward moment of watching Laura and Jordan stand and watch this dance with this song going on. And they both. You can see that they're both sort of emotionally hit by the moment. And it is a moment where you do, where you do know that Laura cares very much about, about Jordan and their friendship because it ultimately ends in them slow dancing and hugging and, and, and we, and, and it sort of bleeds into the next scene. And, and the very, at the very end of the show are we. Should we just say.

[A]

Yeah, so we, we said that Jordan and Laura joked but also kind of said for real, if they ever got married, they're song would be because youe Love Me by Celine Dion. Right. And then at Laura's wedding, they're standing around waiting, watching them do the dance off stage, obviously. And what's the song?

[B]

Oh, right. So. Oh, sorry. So for anybody who hasn't seen the show, the, it's the, the first dance is presented with the characters looking out into the, into the audience as though they're watching the dance happen. So it's all reaction to whatever is off in the past, the fourth wall. And, but yeah, so we get to, to Laura's wed and so you have to sit and watch Jordan go through about 57 emotions when he hears this Celine Dion song start. You see him recognize the humor of it and that Laura kind of remembered it is, I think in my view of it, it is a nod to him and how much.

[A]

That's a very positive way to look at it. No, I do. That's not how I took it.

[B]

No, see, I do. I think that it's a combination of the two. I think that she. I think that because youe Love Me starts and he sort of recognizes that there's still that. That some. Somewhere. I think that's. Maybe it's his optimism that I'm seeing that. That. That there is still a little bit of irony that she's used to pick this song as their wedding dance. But you. But you sort of watch a wave of emotion take over him as he has to, I don't know, accept that this is a symbol of her exiting his life in this way and being.

[A]

Comfortable with being alone, because now he's really actually alone.

[B]

Right. So at the top of the dance is flanked by Vanessa and Kiki and their respective husbands. And the. And they start to dance and go off. And you're left with Jordan watching it happen on his own and watching him sort of have to go through it by himself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it. It's. It's very effective, especially after. Especially as you sort of gradually, you know, go through the steps of these dances with the other. In the other weddings also.

[A]

Yeah. It did not hit me as like a nod to him. It hit me more as like a repurposing of what they had for her new life. But that's maybe me just being negative.

[B]

I mean, I think I want it either way. There's a million open for interpretation.

[A]

I. For me. And again, it. I guess it depends on where you are in your life when you're watching it. Right. Like, what that moment can mean. So. Because I, you know, am me. And ever since, you know, 2022, I probably cry every couple of days just for no reason.

[B]

Feels great.

[A]

Sure. I'm just.

[B]

I. Happiness feels good in a place like this.

[A]

Thanks, Nicole. No, I'll. I'll be honest. Like, I. Honestly, since. Since November, yeah, I've, like, I've pretty much just been sad every day, but it's not. I. I've learned to be a person with the sadness, and I'm able. Debbie. The depression. But it's. I'm able to, you know, have these moments with you and. And. And enjoy myself and laugh. I can. I could laugh again. That took forever. And it took also took a while for me to eat, but, like, I had to do the podcast. I had to write, I had to go work, and so I had to figure it out. I mean, that phone call with the gopher, that was the night before I recorded the Hamilton episode with Brian Nash. So just. So just remember. So just know this, everybody, if you listen to that episode. I'm. I am 16 hours post a major trauma and not fully, you know, knowing what to do. And you can even hear my mom burst in to like, give me a waffle and, and bacon. And, and that was literally because I hadn't eaten since the phone call. And my mom was like, well, I'm ordering you food. I was like, well, I'm recording. She's like, okay, sure, fine, whatever. And then as we're recording, she's like, well, here it is. She's like, and you're on mic, so I'm going to, I'm going to know if you ate it or not. So it's.

[B]

Yeah, well, I, you know, and, and, and, and I, as somebody who also has gone through a, a long period of depression and didn't end in denial about it. Like, I, I didn't, I didn't want to admit to myself that I was depressed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, and, and found a therapist that I really liked and worked through, through quite a bit of it and came out on the other end feeling, you know, pretty okay.

[A]

Your skin's never looked better.

[B]

Thank you. But, but do, but doing, you know, sort of a rethink of, of my life and, and figuring things out, but I don't forget in any way, shape or form the, you know, the moving through, through life every day with that undercurrent of sadness about everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, and to, to a point where, you know, you just, I don't know. For me, it would happen when I was at work because at the job I was at, at the time I was alone, and it would, it would just manifest itself in ways of, I don't know, just, just talking myself down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's, I don't know. I, I don't, it's, it's not a fun feeling. And I'm, and, and I, I don't know. I think I still have days where I will get down. But I, I've, but having worked through, I would, I don't know, I guess, I guess I can say I've worked, worked through everything to an extent. I know how to come back out of it and to not live there, but it is not a fun place to be. And I don't, you know, and I, I, I sympathize with anybody who deals with it. I really do. I mean, it's because, it's because it's a balance. And that's the other thing too, to, you know, that we all have to remember is now we're in therapy, but, but, you know, none of us Are happy all the time? No, but there is a difference between not being happy all the time and having depression.

[A]

Yes, absolutely. And again, it's. I think, because I am not as despondent as I was, or at least not consistently despondent, a lot of my friends just assume that, like, I'm good now and it's like, I'm better now. I'm. I can function, I can eat, I can sleep. But I mean, like, talking about Bub with Sarah today, because she just, like, told the story to a friend of ours who actually turns out knows him. But, like, the friend's response was like, not. It wasn't that. It wasn't sympathy. It was like, I think she heard it as such a salacious story. And I was like, did you tell her that, like, I couldn't eat or sleep for a month afterwards? That, like, I spent all of December crying and writing the play, but crying and, like, you know, spending half of January crying. I mean, for listeners who want to know just, like, how bad it was, first of all, there's a reason why there was like a two month gap in between Heidi Chronicles and Love Valor Confession. Because I tried really hard. I was like, I have two episodes I have to record and I just got to get them out of the way. But Adam and I went to go see the Matilda movie at the Quad. Fun.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Classic. You're already here. Poor thing. That was like, what, I think two weeks after. No, a week after. So it was, it was.

[B]

It was within a week or two after.

[A]

Yeah. And we went to see the movie and like, I had my cries during. But like, that. That material has always, like, given me the feels. It. Yeah, it was, it was.

[B]

It's a. It's got. The material is very clumpy.

[A]

Yes. But we went for a drink afterwards and like, we're talking about it and then.

[B]

And I got the whole story.

[A]

You got the whole story? And I, like, just talking about it made me cry. And it was, I think my first time crying in front of you. It was a. That was a major milestone for us. You're like, well, I've now seen Matt at his wettest. But yeah, I.

[B]

You know what? It's so funny. Not. You're crying. You're crying was not funny. I, I truly felt for you.

[A]

I cry very beautifully. Thank you very much. But.

[B]

No, but it's, it's. It's funny because I, I recently had somebody else else cry in front of me and for what, I think for what they thought was the first time that it wasn't. But then afterwards they were like, was it weird to see me cry? And I'm like, no, I think, I think that, I think that a lot of people get used to people who aren't terribly emotional.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm a very emotional person.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And, you know, and I don't always let it show. I, I can, I can put up a bit of a hard front sometimes, but I, but, but as somebody who, who ultimately wears his heart on his sleeve, you know, I, I don't, I, I, I don't know. I, if I, I understand that in order to cry in front of another person means you're terribly comfortable with that person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that you are, and, and that you're emotionally open enough to, to let it out. And so I don't know. I, I, because for me to cry in front of somebody, that's definitely what it means. Like, I, I will, I will hold it in well.

[A]

So at that point, I, I was just so raw that I, I, I, it, it took nothing to make me cry. But basically that, what, that, what that was, was I was only hanging around people who I trusted because I was like, I'm gonna fall apart and I need to not feel self conscious about it.

[B]

Right. Well, I wasn't about to, like, reach over and like, you know, hold your, grab your hand or hold your arm when, When Matilda hugged Ms. Honey and.

[A]

I.

[B]

Like, vomit cry. I felt so bad for you. I was like, oh, no, are we gonna make it through this? We're halfway through. This movie is not over.

[A]

So, like, I always get misty when I see things where people, like, connect and are good to each other and, and show up for each other. Especially because, you know, when you are depressed, it's hard to remember the times when people are there for you. And this is something to remember when we get back to Jordan of, like, when things are at their darkest. You can't remember any of the good stuff stuff. And, well, it's just easy to write it off. Yeah. Or it was a fluke that they didn't mean it now. Like, their true intentions are that they don't care. And here we are. Which is, you know, and that also just makes the bub stuff more complicated because that's not a case where, like, the feelings weren't there. It was, it was a case of the feelings where there were too much that I had to be erased, which is what that choice was for him. But for me, no one likes that. No one likes that. And especially when you're blindsided by not giving the information upfront. So you're just, like, left with your dick in your hand, naked in the middle of the street, being like, oh, okay. I thought it was simply Wednesday.

[B]

That really happened, folks. It didn't happen. It didn't happen.

[A]

Did no one read that story in the New York Post about a crying homosexual in the middle of the street with his dick in his hand, fully naked? It was in front of the Kimberly Akimbo Theater, and it was like, where are the Tonys? And they said, matt, it's November. I said, I don't care.

[B]

And Vicky Clark said, wow.

[A]

Vicky Clark said, I must study with you. You must continue in the theater. No, the Matilda thing. First of all, that moment has always made me stop. What Adam was talking about is, like. It was the difference of me getting misty and me having a violent cry. And that's where he was like, oh, she's not okay. She's not okay. She's not okay. She's not okay. She's okay. But I was able to get it back together. It was very Jordan and Will at the Franco Prussian War documentary. Like, Jor is sobbing, and Will's like, wow, so you're crying. And I didn't know that.

[B]

That's not true. I didn't. I. I did not feel that way.

[A]

And. And in Adam's defense, he also knew. He knew that cry was going to come back again, and it did.

[B]

My. My only thought was, oh, no. That was all I really thought was just, oh, no.

[A]

Yeah, I felt bad for you. No, it was. Listen, that moment always makes me cry. It was just a very different kind of cry that day there. It's the difference of I am moved and having. Wiping a silent tear and just, like, sobs. And there are, like, a couple of things that do that for me. As I mentioned, every time I watch the Christmas episode of Bob's Burgers from this year, it doesn't.

[B]

Oh, man. It was good.

[A]

First of all, it's a brilliant episode. It's perfect. But even now, I still will weep in the third act reveal, which. Okay. Spoiler alert. It's been nine months when Tina shows up for Louise's poem. I. I cry every time. That said Adam. That episode dropped, I think pretty soon after we saw Matilda and I.

[B]

It was the Sunday after.

[A]

Yeah, it was the Sunday after.

[B]

Because you were like, have you watched this episode yet? And I said, no. And you were like, I can't watch this again for a really long time.

[A]

That was. Well, that was one where I couldn't. So, like, the Two things at that point for the month, the month of December, I could not talk about me and Bub without crying. And I couldn't talk about the Bob's Burgers episode without crying. Yeah, I remember telling my mom about it and I got to the point of talking about Tina and I just started sobbing. And what happened was so. It was the Sunday after. It was a night I couldn't sleep. I was on the couch. We had moved me into the office where you and I watched significant other so I could at least watch TV in case I couldn't sleep. It was. Guys, December was bad and half of January, but it was, it was bad and I couldn't sleep. And I realized it was 3am which meant that Bob's Burgers had dropped on Hulu so I could watch the new episode. And I was like, oh, this will pick me up because Bob's Burgers picks you up. Anyway, was a funny episode. I wasn't laughing, but I was. It was funny. And then that moment happened with Tina and I wasn't expecting it and I, and the music that's playing is gorgeous and like the whole thing is just very, very moving. And I was like hysterical and I couldn't do anything about it because it was 3:30 in the morning on a Monday in December. I had just finished my temp job. Like I had nowhere to go. I was, it was bad. It was awful.

[B]

But it was funny when you, when you messaged me about it because my, one of my very, my one of my other close friends who's like obsessed with Bob's Burgers. I, I texted him shortly after you had reached me, reach out to me about it. And I was like, have you watched this Bob's Burgers episode yet? And his response, all capital letters was girl. That was it. And I said, I said, is it really that emotional, girl? And I was like, okay, I guess I have to watch this episode of Bob's Burger. And then, but then of course, you know, expectation. And I'm like, oh, no. But then it got to the end of the episode and I was also emotionally manipulated into crying. Not manipulated.

[A]

You were emotionally, you were.

[B]

I was connected.

[A]

You were pried open, baby, like a walnut. It was, it's, it's, it's just a beautiful moment. But again, when people connect, that's what does it for me. Which is why like those moments of friendship and significant other, so lovely. And it's a gut punch when you, it doesn't go to shit. But you just watch these really harsh moments and the Jordan, Laura fights. Like, when he's yelling at Laura, he's yelling about the expectation of having to buy all these things and go to all these places and like, your life is getting so great and you don't realize that mine's going to. And like, he's. And. And he's. And he's shaming her for the wedding because she's having a gender. She's having gendered wedding parties. And he's reading a poem. Like, why? Because he all. What the. What the. The straw that breaks the camel's back is. He shouts at her, why am I not a bridesmaid? She's like, it's. He says, you are. Your cousin is a bridesmaid who you don't speak to. And she goes, well, she doesn't have anything. I thought this would be nice for her. And he goes, I am. He's like. She's like, because it's my sisters. He goes, your sisters and your cousin. He goes, you are like, you're barely close with your sisters. You're not at all closer to your cousin. It's like, I'm closer to you than all of them. It's like, and I'm reading a goddamn poem. That is. That is garbage. And it. And you know it. You're doing gendered wedding parties. You're doing a destination wedding for a long weekend where we all have to buy.

[B]

I.

[A]

You know, it's. It's expensive to get out there. Like, this is not who you. Who I thought you were. You are becoming that girl. And that is, first of all, part of that is true. She is being a little bit that girl in the same way Vanessa was that girl and Kiki is that girl. But what he's ultimately saying is, like, this is supposed to be the biggest day of your life. Why am I not representing to you on that day who I am in your life? Do I actually not mean this to you, or is having a picture, having a heteronormal, formative, picture perfect wedding more important to you than telling everyone else that matters to you? This is the second most important man in my life, right? Because if either one is true, that is devastating. And she can't hear that. She can only hear the hatred, not the pain. So when it's over, she says, I don't want you coming to my wedding. And he goes, no, I'm. And first he's hurting. I don't want to come anyway. But then he's like, no, of course I'm coming. I would never not go to your wedding. And she says, well, when you meet someone, I'll be there for you. And he goes, if it's not. When it's. If it doesn't happen, everybody. And he goes, and if it doesn't, she goes, then you figure it out. And she goes, and then she shouts at him, and you figure out when moments are and are not about you. Which is true. And he. And let me be very clear, Jordan totally crosses the line in this scene. Yep. He goes for a jugular that he never should have, but it is due to a lot of things, and it's very upsetting that nothing he says ends up registering with her. She only hears the hatred, and she can't hear any of the other shit that he's telling her. And that has always upset me. And then in the bootleg, we watch, like, you hear a couple of women cheer for her at the end. And I'm like. I'm like, oh. Other people who totally don't understand what's happening in this moment, they cheer her.

[B]

Yelling, this is not about you.

[A]

It is. It is the people telling you it's not about you. And ultimately your pain isn't valid because it's not about you. It's about me. And let me just say this. I know it's not about me. Jordan also knows it's not about him because we've always known. It's never been about us. It's always been about you. You. But it's, you know, like, we. I was. This is what all connects of, like, the heteronormativity of the world and of society. And it's not something you should have to necessarily apologize for, but it's something you should acknowledge and just be aware of.

[B]

Of.

[A]

Because it can be exhausting trying to bend for you all the time because sometimes you break. And this is where, like, kind of then depression will come in because then you will forget about all the times that your friend bent for you or was there for you. Like Sarah, God bless her, came to the ER with me at one in the morning when we were 24 years old because I had a kidney stone. We didn't know what it was. We just knew it was major pain in my stomach. Granted, at the time, I was on the floor crawling from the bathroom, trying to call her name. She ignored me. I called her on the phone. She finally came out. She goes, what is it? I said, said, my stomach hurts. I think I need to go to the hospital. She goes, no, it doesn't. No, you don't.

[B]

That's a true friend. You're fine.

[A]

You're fine. Shut up. And finally we do leave. She. She saying, I'm. I'm trying to call a cab company. I'm like, sarah, we love Central Park. Let's just go outside and get a cab.

[B]

You live in New York?

[A]

Yes, we. We got a cab when we get there. Ended up being a kidney stone. And, like, it was. It was a serious thing, but she was there for me the entire time. The other thing was, I woke up after my morphine haze was like, sarah, I need a bucket. I'm going to throw up. And she was so slow. She was so like, la dee da di da. He says he needs a bucket. It took, like, I. I had to throw up in my bed sheet. It was bad. But, like, girlfriend was there. She was there. She tried to tough love it. She tried to, like, be there for me. She know she was there for me every now and then. She tried to do tough love when it actually wasn't the moment for tough love. And she learned it was too late for tough love, like, five seconds after the fact. You know, me having to be in the hospital, me throwing up, her trying to make me walk to CVS with her to pick up my bed. Well, as medicine, which I don't know if you've ever had a kidney stone, folks. It is someone literally stabbing you from the inside over and over and over as it passes through you. But it was a. It's a great story. And that's. That's a story for another day when Sarah eventually comes on the pod and we talk about, I don't know, Titanic or something.

[B]

But I cannot wait to hear you relate a kidney stone to Titanic. Oh, wait.

[A]

The iceberg.

[B]

Going downstone is the iceberg. Oh, my God.

[A]

We found it, baby.

[B]

We found it.

[A]

Ding, dong, ding dong. But, yeah, it's like, you know, I say all this, you. It's so easy to remember the pain and the times you've been wronged, but it takes a little more time. It takes a little more effort to. To remember the good that you have with somebody. And even though Jordan is being a nasty little. At that moment, he isn't totally wrong about stuff. And that is sort of what makes it a beautiful scene or say, a very compelling scene, is that he has a lot in his corner and he's going about it terribly. And thus all the actual meat of what he's trying to get at is getting lost. What makes me upset is when people watch it are like, you go, girl. Yeah, tell off the fag. And I'm like the fag is in pain. Can we at least acknowledge that.

[B]

Yeah, that. That he's having real feelings.

[A]

Real feel like. And. And they're tied to so many other things. And it's. And it's the. And it's the. And. And her. Well, she boils it down to. So you're upset that you're not a bridesmaid. Fuck you. It's not about you. Which is, again, missing the forest for the trees. Right.

[B]

He just. He wants to be more included in a closer proximity.

[A]

He. In general. Just in general. And. And again, we talked about this before with everything else, and I wanted. But I just want to reiterate, you know, know, with these weddings with the, like, it's all right and everyone. No one ever acts like their best self when it comes to planning their weddings.

[B]

It's all for. It's all for show.

[A]

It's all for show. And it's. Every time I've sat at one, it's always been such a weird feeling because I'm like. I feel like I'm. I'm in a cult. And we're all watching this, you know, ancient ritual happening of, like, two people melding. It's. I'm like, when does the blood sacrifice happen? This all just feels very archaic, but, like, the actual joining of two souls and, like, starting a life together. That's lovely. It's just the ceremony of it all where I'm like, no matter how pretty this is, I'm always going to feel a little weird about it, but two souls joined together.

[B]

Sorry. Sideshow reference for.

[A]

Thank you. I was going to mow edge.

[B]

I just remember Ken Jennings saying, joy.

[A]

Joy. Well, isn't he Irish or Scottish or something?

[B]

Irish, yeah.

[A]

He's. He bevels like a. Like a weird man. Evil bevels. Even on musical bevels. That's what he said about his character in Urinetown. Evil bevels in a music musical. But great, great. But even so, even if I feel a little weird about it, it is supposed to still. You say it's, you know, the biggest day of your life and it. And even though it's not about me, if we truly are that close, why wouldn't I reflect on the day, who I am to you? And that is ultimately what Jordan is trying to get at, especially when he has been jumping through hoops himself, or at least he feels he's been jumping through hoops doing, you know, doing all the things he's supposed to be doing. Yet again. Third friend. And.

[B]

Well, and it's Unfortunate. In terms. Just in terms of timing.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That the. That the friend who it ultimately matters the most is the last in a line of friends that he's had to do this with.

[A]

You wonder, if Laura were first or second, would it be this bad? And the answer is probably not, because he also would have been more optimistic about his future at the time. But even so, like. But context is everything and timing is everything. So you would think, like, why? What. You know, knowing all this stuff about your best friend, what he's been going through, how hard it's been to watch everyone go through it. Like, you can say, it's about me, it's my wedding, like, be happy for me, but it's also like, I don't know. For five seconds, I know this is your movie, Laura, but for five seconds, think about the side character for a second and what's going on off screen. Just for a minute. Because that one minute of understanding could have saved you that whole rant that he gave you. Sure. You know? Yeah. Me going off and talking to the gays about what I was going through saved that for me with. With Sarah and the. And I'm glad that Josh acknowledges this sort of in. Towards the end, because much as I love all my friends and they are. And they are there for me, you know, my female friends, especially, like, now, and they've been so supportive of the play and they. And they're supportive of the podcast, but, like, you know, there's. There's always just gonna be a little. That bit of a disconnect, and I'll. And part of my brain always does go back to that moment where, like, I was just earnestly trying to reach out about something I was going through, and their response was like, shut it down. It's not about you. Which I think they assumed was tough love. And me being like, I'm not being heard, and I. I don't know what to do. Right.

[B]

It's like when people just keep saying, don't take things personally.

[A]

Yeah. How else am I supposed to take it? Right. Well, it's like when everyone tells Jordan, that was just talking, he goes, that's what everyone does. It's talk. Talking is important. Words matter. And words matter so much, guys. And ultimately he gets drinks with the co worker from the office who he hates, the gay guy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And he's like, well, if you didn't want sex, why are. Why are we here? He's like, I'm trying to. I'm trying to make some more friends. It's. It's really difficult. And that. I think that was when finally I started to cry when we watched it, the Bootle. Because it. First of all, making friends is difficult, but what he's realizing specifically at this point is he needs to make some friends who are a little more in line with the life he's living. Not to be clique, not, you know, to only disavow his female friends, but he's learning that, try as they might, his female friends are never going to fully understand what he's going through. And he needs somebody who does. Just one person. Because if he had had that gay co worker as his friend earlier and he was going through this with Laura, he might have had a chance to talk to him about it and figure out what it is he's going through. And he. But he didn't. He learned it a little late, but there's maybe a chance that he will now. And I really appreciate that. Josh has that scene in the play. It's. It got me this last time, man.

[B]

My God.

[A]

Because I was sitting next to you. You. And I was like. And I was. Because, listen, like, you know, so I don't. I. I can't go into too much of the December, November shit, but just like, you know, know when things were still kind of messy, but trying to work through it before, like, actual shit hit the fan with bub, most of my female friends just, like, were not really great about it. They couldn't really understand what it was that the situation was. And their. Their alliance did, I will say, did not really line up with me. Even though they loved me and they cared about me, mostly they were like, you're not protecting yourself and, like, I don't like how you're acting. But when I would tell them the situation, they. Their first impulse wasn't like, oh, poor, you know, you. It was something else entirely. My gay friends were more sort of like, oh, girl, are you okay? Like, what are you going through?

[B]

Well, because it felt like. It felt more. It felt more closely related to a situation that you would have with. With a gay couple.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At least from the. From the connection perspective.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because, you know, I. I've certainly had my own experiences of, you know, meetings. I. For a long time, my tracker, my track record was going out on dates with people who ultimately, like, were okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or it was like somebody who, like, on paper it was like, this is a great idea. And then there just was nothing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then unfortunately, the guys that I ended up having the most connection with and nothing that ever turned into anything scary. Scandalous. But like, the guys that I ended up having the most connection with were guys that were in relationships because I think they felt a freedom and, and that, that some guys who are, like, out to impress. Yeah. On a date don't have because, you know, if, because you're not. And, and these, These connections were not like, we weren't like, sleeping behind anybody's back or anything. It was just a, you know, you. But there was a connection because all of a sudden you're like, oh, this person doesn't care.

[A]

Yeah. They're just talk.

[B]

We, we're like, actually, you know, meeting and interacting on a deeper level because there's. There are no stakes.

[A]

Yeah. It's not going anywhere.

[B]

So where, where on a date, there's. Well, there's whatever stakes you put into it. But usually we put pressure on ourselves for there to be heavy stakes.

[A]

If it goes well, I'll put my stake into it.

[B]

Hey, but, but, but in these situations, I would find myself becoming emotionally invested in this, in a, in a, in, in a person, because it felt like a deeper connection than it was because there was no pressure behind it. And so to pivot back to, to your situation, I understood what it felt like to have a connection with somebody who in the long run, was not available.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And to have a. And, and to, and to have to figure out how to reconcile that with yourself and with that other person depend. You know, however deeply they involved, involved. They were a little more deeply in your case than ever was in mine. Why. But I. At least, but I, But I was able to, you know, understand and empathize and sympathize with your. Your, Your base plot.

[A]

Sure. Well, I think the difference is I did not know how unavailable he was when we met. He didn't, he did not tell me and waited a bit, and then when he did tell me, did not give me all the information.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that the more information just kind of would keep coming over time. And I just kind of kept rolling with the punches until eventually, like a, A couple of big chunks happened where I was like, I, And I thought that I was, you know, I again thought, no future here. So, like, it's fine. I will adhere to whatever rules you have and we'll move on. And of course, feelings got caught because how can they not when you're being open with each other and there's a connection. Yep. And we were like, okay, so we're going to figure out a way to pivot this. We care too much about each other to never see each other. Again, we'll take some time apart. We'll figure it out. And then he revealed more information, and I was like, oh, so everything I ever thought is different. And, you know, when I. When I had to convince him to do the right thing and I did, and then I did not expect to be thrown under the bus when I was trying so hard to just. Just like, hold everyone accountable to being good people, thinking that it was just an accident and not just a very. Not intentional mess, but like a bad mess. We'll put it that way. And it was when it was when the things blew up that the women in my life finally were like, okay, now I feel bad for you, because I was. Because they saw how desperately I was trying to make. Make the right thing happen. And when I was. When it did, rather than, like, respect the fact that I was trying to do that, I just got discarded and. And labeled as the problem, which is not. No one ever wants to be that, especially when it's not true.

[B]

No one wants to be the villain.

[A]

But what I mean is that, you know, it took. It. It honestly took me getting to that very low point of that really awful happening, Winning in general. I don't want to say to me, because I, you know, if I were smarter, if I were protecting myself, I would have left a lot sooner and just said, like, clean your own mess. Sure, but you care about somebody, and you see somebody for, like, this is sort of why it kind of. When I see moments like Matilda Miss Honey hugging or. Or Tina showing up for Louise, or people come. Come and support each other, it makes me cry because I don't see it happen a lot in my own life. And I try very hard to do that for the people I care about. And that's something that I. I was trying to do for someone I cared about. And when you show up, I show. I. I was trying to show up and thought I was protecting myself. And in a way, I was. But, like, ultimately, when everything happened, I did not. I was not thought of, or at least not as a person. I was thought of as sort of a problem slash a victim, but, like, not a victim that you want to help, but rather a victim you want to pity out and like, give the bare minimum to and then brush aside. Right. And that. That was the part of the devastation of that all. And. And when that happened, that was when the straight people in my life who were aware finally kind of, like, snapped to and realized, like, oh, my friend is broken. I should probably be there for my friend, and I'm Grateful they were. They helped me as you did and as Brian did and as my friend Danny did and Josh. But like, I, I wish that they were kind of a little more up to the plate at the front at the beginning of it all. You know, Sarah, God bless her, you know, she. As more information kind of kept coming her way, she was the only person on the straight side who kept being like, I don't like this, I don't like this. And I would, My response would always be like, I'm not telling this to you. Right. I'm not getting the cadence right. And she's like, no, you're saying exactly the right things. It's not good. And, and it's. But I say we're bringing all this up just to like, go back to the play in the sense of like the disconnect sometimes with our friends when they are not necessarily leading similar paths of our own. They can't put themselves in our shoes and thus they can't help us navigate and get ourselves out of it or help us figure out the emotions. Instead, it's more of sort of like, I can't really relate. If this were a female friend, this is what I would say. It's like, well, I'm sorry to tell you, being a straight woman in this world is different from being a gay. Hey, man. And the world is made for us half of the time and not made for us the other half of the time. And I can help you with one, but not the other. And you know, I try to listen and absorb and, and, and do what I can, but there's. At the end of the day, there's so much that I just can't know. And I recognize that. I recognize those limitations, but it's. Yeah, it just sometimes sucks when, when you ask for a hand to hold and they just don't do, do it. They just don't do it. And that is sort of, kind of. I mean, ultimately, like you imagine that scene with Laura and Jordan. How many different ways go. Like, what would happen if. When he's shouting at her, if she just went up to him and she just sort of like bear hugged him into submission, right. He would just fall apart into pieces. And, but everyone's just so in their own heads of who's being wronged and whose narrative it is, is that no, nothing's getting healed in the end.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Well, and, and, and in viewing it and, and even reading it for the first time, it was like, I, like I said before, this was, you know, this play coming off of his success with Bad Jews, which was really intense and became, and, and, and has quite an intense physical altercation in it. I, I don't know why I assumed that something equally intense would happen in this show, but I figured it might. And so once this fight started, I was like, where is this gonna go? Because, you know, when you become familiar with a playwright and for a style or a, not a tactic, but you know what I'm saying, When you're used to how a playwright sort of approaches, Approaches things, you, you sort of go, oh, I wonder if they're going to pull that again in a different way, but equally shocking or grabbing or emotional and this. And, and so I kept, you know, being like, is it going to happen here? And it, and it does, but it's all verbal because I wondered if there was going to be, you know, if, if it was going to lead to a slap or. You know what I mean? Which could have, which would have really.

[A]

That would have changed everything, then it.

[B]

Would have, then it would have actually probably ruined my opinion of the show. I'm, I'm glad that it remains just verbal between the two of them. But it's, you know, it, it still ends the show on such a, on such a bittersweet note because you, you know, they, they end up sort of reconciling at the wedding. You know, she thanks him for, for reading the. He.

[A]

Well, he, he came first of all. He, he showed up, he showed up.

[B]

He read, he read and you know, and, and, and it's, it. And so by the end of the play, it sort of becomes what's unsaid in term and, and just showing up that you can tell is gonna ultimately lead them down, making things a bit better.

[A]

Better. Yeah, probably.

[B]

But, you know, but it, there, there's, but it's, it's that, that's one of those moments where, God, if I, if I asked a playwright and he'd be like, well, what do you think? I would love to hear what Joshua Harmon feels happens to their. If, if he ever, if he ever thought further about what happens to their friendship beyond the end of the show. Like if, if he felt that this was sort of the end of things for them, if this was like a send off ultimately or if they did just sort of. Of gradually grew apart but still considered each other, you know, in each other's lives, but in a different way. I, I don't know. I, I. Rather than come up with my own answer, I would love to hear what he, what he thinks happened to Jordan and Laura.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which sounds like a soap opera. Whatever happened to Jordan and Laura?

[A]

So my taking of that scene at her wedding, because, I mean, first of all, he has no beef with Vanessa and Kiki. They're still there. And they. And they even come up to him afterwards like, you're next. And it's not as. Like, it's not the boost of confidence that I think they think it is to him, but that's another story for another day. But, you know, he and Laura have their conversation, and the way that. At least. At least I should say the way that Gideon and Lindsay played it, to me, it felt a bit like Gideon was saying goodbye and Lindsay was. And I felt like in that moment is when Lindsay realized she didn't want to yet she, like, he came. Unclear how she felt about it. Ultimately glad that he was there. But, like, what does this mean? And it was when his tone became a little final is when she's like, nope, nope, nope, nope. Which is. Which is good. He has. So he has two lines, and I was sort of beating around the bush with one of them. The first line he says to her, I think, no, I don't know which one comes first. I'll say the. The. The sweet, sad one first is when he says to her, laurie, you're going to have such an amazing life, which is a bit of a goodbye. And it's. But it's meant with so much love and care and honesty. And it's really hard to be happy for people when you're not there, you know, when you're not where they're at. It's like, you know, oh, when two people are in a relationship and both their careers are going fast, like when you see actors together, right, and both of them have, like, solid careers going, they're both in shows, they're both doing stuff, it's like, better than ever. It's like, yeah, sure. 1. You're both working at the same level right now, right? What happens when one of you gets a little bit more success and you don't have anything for nine months and.

[B]

The other one has a guest Contracted a community theater in Birmingham, Alabama?

[A]

If that. If that, if that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What if one of you, you know, is temping for two years after having had, like, a lot of success, but then you have to temp for two years and while the other one is, you know, doing TV and Broadway? Like, it. No matter who you are, that gets in there. But. But even with friendships, it can be difficult sometimes to be happy for your friends. When you feel like you're not in a good place. And it takes a lot of effort for Jordan to say what he says and mean it and not have any hint of pain in there. And I recognize that when, especially when it. Because for him it is a bit of a letting go. Laura, you are going to have such an amazing life. Which also, like, he's not sure if he is. Is. But he knows that she is. And that makes. And he's happy for her, if not necessarily happy about the fact that he's unsure if he'll be a part of it or not. The other line, he says to her, and this is the line that I think really makes Jordan make sense as a character and how you kind of have to. What you have to think about the entire time you're playing the role is he says to her, you know, basically how much she means to him. And it's like. And then he says, I wouldn't be alive today if it weren't for you. And he says, I just. I wouldn't be alive. And you know that something went down because he says that and Lauren. And Laura goes, no, I can't. I'm. I'm about to mess up my makeup. Like she's about to. She's already starting to cry because she's thinking about what he's talking about. And they don't say and it could mean anything. My interpretation of this is because he also talks about being on antidepressants and you know, his off years. But. But I would assume there was a moment either towards the end of college or early in their lives in New York when he and Laura were living together when, like, it got really bad with Jordan.

[B]

Like he start.

[A]

And he got very close to suicidal, if not maybe even made an attempt. Right. And Laura was the one who helped him get out of it or saved him. And it's something they don't talk about ever again. It happened. Maybe it's possible Kiki and Vanessa don't know about. About it. Or like, maybe he made it. Maybe it's something simply like he had started to make a plan about it and she figured out. Who knows, who knows, it could truly be up. It's up to the actors. It's up to the director. You can figure it out for yourself. But that line is there for a reason. And you have to imagine that something very dark and scary happened or was about to happen. Right.

[B]

Well, we should say that the topic of suicide is in the play because of his grandma. He talks with his grandma other in these Interstitial scenes. And she's sort of like jokingly talks about oh, how could I kill myself? I could do this. I could take a lot of pills. I think I'd like to take a lot of pills and just never wake up. And she says it in, I mean this is all based on Barbara Berry's delivery, but she says it in the most calm and rational way. And you know, and, and Jordan says, grandma, don't joke like that. And she's like, I'm just talking. That's all we're doing. I'm just talking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think, but I think that the casualness with which that topic is introduced certainly can, could, could open the, you know, the, the, the, the, the mind process for, for what you're saying for, for him, you know, going unseen, said within the, the subtext of everything.

[A]

Yeah. You watch Gideon and he does get like visibly upset when she talks about it. And because for her, when she talks about suicide and first of all how much she's joking, who knows? And she, she even says later on it that was just talking. She doesn't want to die because she's upset or sad or in pain. She's like, I, I had a great life. I've had enough. Like, right. Cuz especially old. And at this point of her life, you know, it's all the same and it's not going to get better. It's probably going to get worse. And everything she's done up until this point has been pretty good for her. She's, she's done all the things she wanted to do. Her husband is gone now. Her children are all grown and moved away. Right.

[B]

Well, and I don't, I don't, I don't know how old Barbara Barry was when she played the role, but it's, I mean, safe to say that, that the character came across as being at least in her mid to late 80s. Yeah, like a, very, like a, an, an elderly human being and slow moving and you know, a youthful energy. But, but, but somebody who had, who was very physically aged her, her, her.

[A]

Mind was still there. You could have conversations there. I mean she obviously would sometimes be a little forgetful, but her mind was there. It was just that physically she was slower and less agile than she once was. There is a great moment where at the beginning of act two. So also when at towards the end of actual one, not knowing what's going on with Will, Jordan writes the longest email of all time in which he.

[B]

Uses the word actually probably 50 times.

[A]

Probably 50 times and says to Will, I'm just putting my feelings out there, blah, blah, blah. And I think you're really amazing, and I have a. I feel like we have a connection. And if this is not going to work for you, fine, but just know that there's someone out there who thinks you're terrific. And of course there's.

[B]

I don't know why that line makes me laugh. So far.

[A]

No. Just know there's someone out there who thinks you're terrific.

[B]

But something a teacher would say.

[A]

Yeah, except it's just so like, love me, love me, love me, love me, love me. He. And the way that Trip Coleman has the actors react to it is great because he's reading it. First of all, he's reading it at Venus's bachelorette party, which is like, dude, wrong room. Yeah. And he's in the middle of it, too. And they're, like, trying to be patient and understanding. And every time he think it's over, there's more. So you see, like, Rebecca Nomi Jones or Sas Goldberg, like, about to make a comment, and then you realize he's got another paragraph. And then they go, okay, so did you send that? He goes, no, this is just a draft. Should I send it?

[B]

No.

[A]

They all say it. No. And then Act 2 begins, and, you know, he's home from the bachelorette party, and Laura's not answering. And then he tries Vanessa, and Vanessa's not answering. And then he tries Kiki, and Kiki's not answering. And then in a moment of desperation, he calls Grandma, who picks up, but he doesn't know what to say. How do you tell your grandma, Grandma stopped me from sending this email to a guy I am obsessed with.

[B]

Right.

[A]

How do you tell her when she doesn't know anything about what's going on in your life?

[B]

Right.

[A]

When every time she asks about your social life, you just say. And so he doesn't say anything. And she's. She's like Joyce. Joyce whatever her name is, like Carol. And then he just hangs up. And he keeps telling himself not to do it, not to do it, and then he does it. He ends up sending the email to what Will.

[B]

It's a great bit of physical comedy on his part.

[A]

Yes, It's. It's. It's pretty fantastic. And it's a meal for an actor and a director to figure out together. But, I mean, what do you think makes Jordan send that email to Will in the end? What's the thing that moves him? That tiny kernel of, well, what if. Or is it something else?

[B]

I. Oh, man.

[A]

A need for the drama.

[B]

I think it. I think he just. I think he gets to a point where. Well, because he immediately regrets doing it. Like, literally the second he hits it, he screams.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think that it's. I don't know, haven't. I think we've all had that moment in our life at one point or another, maybe more than one moment in our life where you're like. You're like, oh, don't be such a wimp. Just do it. Just do it. Just do it. Just do it. Like, what. What's.

[A]

What.

[B]

What could happen? What's. What could go wrong? And a lot of the time your instinct is right and it is something you should do. You should make. You should take a leap.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean? And I think that it's one of those moments where he knows he should not send it, but he has that split second of, oh, fuck it, I'm just going to do it, and immediately regrets it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think it just comes out of. Of trying to talk yourself out of something so much that you just say, well, fuck it, I'm gonna do it anyway. And it is the splittest of seconds.

[A]

Yes. The way that they have Gideon do it. He's basically marching around. Marching around. I'm not gonna do it. Don't do it, don't do it, don't do it. And then, yes, as you said, split us a second, 0.5 seconds, covers his eyes, hits it, and then just shouts into the void. Because I think it's the one that 1% of him that does want to send it takes over for one minute and that's all that it takes to send it. Because 99% of him knows not to do it.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, because I think that he. It's so interesting because over the course of the, of the. The will obsession within the play, I think you even, you even start to see him kind of realize that it's pointless and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That it, that it. Then it just becomes a goal instead of an actual. There's no heart left in it. It's all just a, like a, A, an end point.

[A]

Well, and it's also kind of validation. Right. Yeah. Because Jordan has all these body image issues. Right. He thinks that he's fatter than he is. You know, I can feel my love handles up against the armchair. Right. And God, there's this moment where. So the other thing is, like, the. Josh Harmon is also really good about showing the progress of how his female friends. Lives start to progress once they get with a person Right. Specifically, like that person starts incorporating themselves into your everyday routine. So Vanessa and he have that game at the museum and their second time doing it, Roger joins them. Right. And he can't contribute tribute. And rather than Vanessa being like, oh, that's kind of awkward. She's like, oh, my God, babe. He's like, you know what? I think he's like, I think this is your game. She goes, oh, my God, look at you. And Jordan just sort of stands on the side being like the, like, this is our activity. He can't even contribute. And she's still obsessed. Like the. Are we doing here? Yeah. And so it's the. And. But also in that moment, he's talking about how fat he is. And. And Vanessa's like, you're not fat. And. And because significant other, as you mentioned, has these things where like, people will be talking in different moments in different scenes all over the place. Right. So like, he's talking to Vanessa while also talking to Laura in two different moments of his life. And.

[B]

Right. Yeah, yeah. There's. There's a moment where you see him on a, on a phone call.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's ultimately the same phone call that he's had that he's having three different times with all three of the girlfriends.

[A]

Yes. He's talking to the Kiki and Vanessa and Laura in different moments of his life. He's at work with Laura. He's at the museum with Vanessa. He's on the phone with. Sorry. He's on the phone with Laura. He's at work with Kiki. He's at the museum with Vanessa. Which I. I realized now, actually I have a scene in my play that kind of does a similar thing, although it's a little more chaotic. But he talks about being fat. And Vanessa's like, you're not fat. Kiki's like, you're adorable. Laura goes, you're not fat. Okay. You used to be a fat kid, but you're not fat anymore. And then Roger goes, you're not that fat. Fat. Right.

[B]

The person who has no idea what to say in the moment or like.

[A]

The person who has no history with you.

[B]

Right. There's no perception.

[A]

Cuz the way that the actor who played it on Broadway. Anyway, he doesn't say like, as sort of like a. What do I say? He says, very honestly, you're not that fat. And he's got. Clearly he's no. Someone with no to give in general. You know, he's the, he's the one who finger blasts his girlfriend at the luggage department. Amazing. But he tells Jordan, you're not that fat, because he doesn't need to placate him. He doesn't know him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He doesn't have any. Any history. And that's what I love about Roger.

[B]

Hey, if we can say anything about.

[A]

Roger in his guitar.

[B]

He doesn't play Kate.

[A]

No, in his guitar. And he writes a song called your eyes. And he goes all the way to Santa Fe and back. Oh, my God. It's true. He's such a guitar and bet a cat. It's true.

[B]

I'm not talking about that show again.

[A]

We talked about it for so long. We're so far talking about significant other for less. Fewer minutes than we did about Rent. It's true, it's true. But I think more of our moments about significant other are about significant other and things related to it. Whereas I think with Rent, we went on a few too many tangents. But I don't know, that has. That still has the most listens of any episode of the series. That's wild. 2000, baby.

[B]

That's wild.

[A]

It is wild. Wild.

[B]

Thanks, everybody.

[A]

You're famous. Love. Do you find sometimes when you come on the podcast and an episode drops, you get a new follower too?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Fun. Every.

[B]

I can always tell when sometimes I, like, I won't have realized that it's come out.

[A]

Uhhuh.

[B]

And then I'll have. Yeah, I'll have like two or like maybe two or three random people that. That follow me and I'm like, who are they?

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that makes sense. That's not a read.

[A]

No, not a read.

[B]

No.

[A]

You do a great job. No, but that makes me feel good because that means I have a following.

[B]

I get nervous when I come on here because you talk to some very funny people.

[A]

You're funny.

[B]

I. Thank you. I. I'm not apologizing for anything that I'm saying. I'm just. I'm just. No, no, no.

[A]

Who have. First of all, who have I had on that's so hysterical? Okay. Who name names because. Because this is my house and I am the funniest one here. I'm the bride. I'm the person prettiest.

[B]

We're not turning into this. Hi.

[A]

No. You said you feel self conscious. Sometimes you come on because I've had good guests and every time you come on, you've had.

[B]

Well, and the. And. And every time I come on, I feel like. I feel like I'm rambling, but I don't know.

[A]

I mean, maybe I'm not, but that's Also, I don't know. That's the vibe.

[B]

Hopefully that make. That's what makes me funny.

[A]

I don't know. That's the vibe. Intelligence and humor, they coexist. I. I think there's nothing worse than a smart person who has absolutely no sense of humor to. Don't you?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because a funny person with no intelligence, at least, hey, you can laugh at the clown if you're smart. But dry as, you know, paste. What am I going to do with you?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's all about the delivery.

[B]

Well, and it's. I mean, to. To get back to significant other. It's what makes Will so unappealing in the end.

[A]

Yeah. Honestly, pretty much every man except for Tony and the dude. I think Evan's the name of the dude that Jordan goes on the date with. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Evan and Tony are the only two guys who come out of that looking solid. But even Evan, again, I'm. I'm gonna calls it like I sees it. Exactly at what point did Evan tell Jordan that he can't date him? It's never made clear because time is also. Time will go very slowly and very quickly in this place. Play. Sometimes three weeks go by in a moment, and we don't know. So I am not.

[B]

Put that on our list of things to ask Josh Harmon exactly his opinion on. Because I, I, that's. I, I would love to hear what he believes is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The case.

[A]

Exactly. Because it was clearly before Evan had ever met any of the girlfriends, so it couldn't have been very long. Definitely not between three to eight weeks. But it was probably. Was probably more than a week. See? Funny.

[B]

But bringing it back, kids.

[A]

We do so many callbacks. This is the Arrested Development drag race of podcasts, of Broadway podcasts. Anyway. Don't you think? No. Okay. Indulge me. Okay. I'm sad a lot.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

It's Arrested Development. You wouldn't hold my hand when I cried at Matilda. The least you can do is indulge me today.

[B]

If you had put your hand out, I would have held it. I didn't want to make you more uncomfortable because I thought that you felt self. I could feel you feeling self conscious about it, and I didn't want to draw attention to it. Me.

[A]

Me self conscious. I literally made Philippe Arroyo call me pretty on the last episode of this podcast, and we had just met. I said, say I'm skinny and pretty. Say it. Say it right now. No, I'm. I could not be more self conscious. It's a Problem. I really need to have no to give. I have no to give. When it comes to my intellect. I'll say that when it comes to my opinions and my taste, I'm very open about that because I put it out there because I stand by it. And I think I'm pretty good about how I go forward with it.

[B]

You have not seen Matt angry and shutting something down until you try to play him an audio of Dove, Cameron and Light in the piaza and watched him get so mad. So mad.

[A]

She was very good on Chicago or the episodes that I watched.

[B]

I'm just saying you that, that, that's all just to say that you are very solid in your opinions.

[A]

Well, okay, first of all, I don't think I got angry. I think I was. I think I, I, I just recall called me like, nope, not into it. Was I angry?

[B]

You're like, no, I don't like this. Turn this off.

[A]

Oh, my God. I don't remember that. That makes sense, though. That sounds like me. That does sound like me.

[B]

A glimpse into our friendship.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, y' all. Never want to spend a movie night with me at Adam because it's just. It depends on where we're at. If it's at my place, we are probably watching a movie. It's at your place. We are watching five minutes of nine different bootlegs. Legs.

[B]

Yeah. Although we've watched movies at my place before.

[A]

No, we have, but that's. We never just watched the movie. What I'm saying is, like, that is entertaining to us, that we have a ball doing that. I can't imagine another person on this earth being like, oh, yes, please show me where my hubby gone blues with Beth level. And then show me the three different versions of.

[B]

If you haven't watched that clip on YouTube. It's on. I am. It's on YouTube. Watch it.

[A]

Did. Did Aurora post it?

[B]

No, it's. It's. I can't remember. I, I. If you search, search. If you search Beth level. Where is my hubby gone? It'll come up the. I mean, besides the entire performance of that number, that number ends. I saw that show live. The audience went apeshit. She has 15 reactions during the applause of that number. Yeah, it is incredible.

[A]

Okay, so actually, I will say this, and then we can start closing things out with significant other. We actually haven't gone on that many tangents. I gotta say most. I think most of the things we've talked about have been at least in relation to the themes of this. Yeah. But good for us. Took Us nine years to do it. But we did it. I know we did it, Joe, but.

[B]

So you can edit out any of my stories.

[A]

I don't know. I don't. I'm keeping it all. I'm honest. I don't know if I'm going to edit most of this episode. I think I'm just going to keep it raw.

[B]

But how long are we going with. How long is this?

[A]

We're under three still. Are we? Because we started. We started at 6:30.

[B]

Oh, we did.

[A]

Yeah, we started. We started late.

[B]

We're just under three.

[A]

Yeah. Sorry, everybody. Whatever. Literally, the Rent episode is three and a half hours long. And again, 2,000 downloads. People can. People can. People can suck my five out of five Uber rating. Okay, here we are. They can. They can eat my magnificent peach of a butt.

[B]

They can visit your family friendly cum dumpster. I said it. I said it. That's what he said. Before the podcast started, I was going to use that on the Instagram and I didn't. The Instagram. On the. In my Instagram post and I didn't do it. Your family friendly cum dumpster. Mad cop, like.

[A]

Oh. So, yeah, that's what happened. Adam took a photo of me for Instagram and he said, how should I describe you? Is that it was like a garbage baby or something?

[B]

I said, I said. I said, would you.

[A]

How would you like me to refer.

[B]

To you as a trash baby? And you said, no. How about a family friend? Your family friendly cum dumpster.

[A]

I did. The truth is that it's not true, though. Like, I am. I'm not. I'm not a freaking prude. But no, I'm not the town bicycle that said, okay, let's. No. So I. I was on a podcast recently. I don't think it comes out for a few weeks anyway, but it was about Mamma Mia. Mamma Mia. With Christine Baranski. And this is relevant because I had a revelation with Adam Elsbury watching the Where's My Hubby Gone Blues with Beth Leavel at your apartment.

[B]

Oh, I can't wait to hear what this is or be reminded of what this is, because I don't remember.

[A]

We were watching Beth Leavel finish and doing her multiple reactions to the audience. And I turned to you and I said, adam, there are some women in this world, mostly actresses, who are faggots. Yes, I said, and I mean this with all the love in my heart. And I said, and you know when a woman is a faggot. Because if I were to say that to Beth Leavel that she is a faggot. She would go, thank you so much. Because she knows what that means. This is a woman who has been surrounded by gays who have taught her the ways of life. Life who have introduced her to all of the things and she has grabbed onto it.

[B]

And she's a drag queen.

[A]

She. But that's also kind of where the flagon is with a woman anyway. And I said, Christine Baranski, faggot. Classy faggot, but faggot.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yeah. No, no. Jennifer Simard.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah. But if, if you. If you haven't watched the. Whereas my Heavy Gone Blues performance from Beth Leavel on YouTube. YouTube. Do it also Aurora Spider Woman, I think it was Aurora Spider Woman recently posted that Beth level performance of it's not about me from the prom.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if you haven't. Even if you didn't love the prom, I get it. People didn't love the prom. It's fine.

[A]

It has its issues. I get it.

[B]

It does. I happen to be in the right place at the right time. However, if. Even if you watched it and you've forgotten it, go back and watch Beth Leavel perform, it's not about me because that is some. That is some high futin drag.

[A]

It is camp.

[B]

And I could watch Beth level say, you bet your ass I am, bitches.

[A]

I like to tell the people love whatever the sound's called. And I also. It's also. I don't know if it was her idea for. It was Casey's idea. Whoever it was. Brava. And they repeat the joke in the movie where she mistakes Emma for a different girl because this girl is super dowdy and like holding a basketball. Yeah. Lesbian looking. And they have to like, direct her to Emma like a grandma too. With her, like, they're steering her with her arms out to a different girl. And she's like, it's great. It's so good. She's a. And. But I didn't have that realization until watching that clip with you and watching her because her, her. Her emotions are like, basically she's in character for like a second of just sort of like, I finished and I'm sad, but also like, I'm a diva. And yes. And like looking at the audience like, you're welcome gaze and like walking away.

[B]

Well, there's a you're welcome, but there's also a thank you and a. Oh, yes, it's. And then.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

The piece de resistance is when she turns upstage and visibly wipes the tears away from under her eyes and turns back around again to go.

[A]

You know what it is? It is the performance incarnate of Kim Cattrall posting that she was going to be on it just like that. And captioning it Happy pride. It is the that in performance in a musical. That is exactly what that moment is.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

God bless Beth Leavel. God bless this Beth mess. Happy Beth mess. So final things we want to talk about with significant other. We talked about a lot, but is there anything we didn't mention? I can't think of it. Let's see.

[B]

Let me think. No, I don't know because I was going to say we can't end this podcast without discussing the sending of the email most moment.

[A]

Yeah, but we did.

[B]

We did. I, I don't, I don't know.

[A]

I think I talked about the girls at the Pels. I talked about when I did the play and Kalyn, Frank's husband thought I wrote it.

[B]

I think I would just say that, like, overall, as far as, like my opinion of the show in terms of how it's written, I, I do think it's a great, I think it's a great play. I think it really did deserve a lot more love than it got in terms of. I know awards don't necessarily mean anything, but you know, just in terms of recognition.

[A]

Oh, actually, you know what I do want to talk about because we hinted it, but I just want to talk a little bit about Jordan as a character and this and my opinion, the stupidity of the criticism of so and so is not likable. The only time a character should really be likable is in a full blown rom com where everything is kind of shallow. But also being perfect means you don't make any interesting decisions in a story. No, you're boring. You're boring. You're Will. And Jordan is not, not a perfect person. I think he is likable because he ultimately leads with a very bleeding heart. But he has a lot of obstacles in his way, most of which he has made for himself in addition to all the other obstacles that the world gives you as a gay man and being a gay man in New York City. Right? But like, yes, he's manic. Yes, he can be a little self centered. He talks way too much. Ha. Know what that life's like. He, he, he goes too deep too fast. Also know what that's like and that can be a lot. But there's an earnestness about him that I think you just can't deny. And I don't appreciate when people are like I can't get into him. Like, his problem is that he can't find a person. Whatever. I'm like, first of all, as we have discussed for three five hours. Three five hours. Five hours. It's not just about not having a person. It's about, you know, just trying to survive and not. And, and, and be able to stay relevant to the people in your life while also. Yes. Trying to have, like, that other person in your corner. Having a person in your corner when all the other people who are in your corner have gone off.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Well.

[B]

And I think, you know, it's, It's. I'm not going to get super deep here, but, like, I, I think it's safe to say that, you know, for the majority of the play, Laura is his significant other.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so to lose her essentially at the end is, you know, is, Is what's more painful to him than not having a boyfriend. It's, it's the, it's the loss of his.

[A]

Who.

[B]

Who is effectively really his significant other throughout his early adulthood.

[A]

Yeah. And the thing is, like, all of act one, he's obsessing about Will to everybody, but, like, especially Laura. And, you know, she'll tell him about, like, all dating horror stories.

[B]

She has rational of. Of the three.

[A]

Three friends, and she's the most willing to listen as well. And I think that maybe. I'm trying to think of, like, what would maybe hurt most with Jordan about the fact that Laura never told him about Tony and then never really divulged much after. Like when, when he finds out about Tony, it's sort of by accident. And then she's kind of telling details about him to the girls more than to him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it's like, why can't you? And I don't know. I don't know what her deal is, why she wouldn't do it. Maybe she's aware that something maybe would be off if she started divulging stories about her life, about her romance to Jordan. But, like, we see him be very comfortable about just talking all openly about Will to her. And she doesn't really do the same when it comes to Tony. And it's interesting that the same actor plays both roles.

[B]

Yes. Well, I don't know. I think to relate to Laura for a minute. I mean, I've had friends. Oh, my God, what's happening?

[A]

My headphones came off.

[B]

I know. I mean, I've had friends who are definitely much more, Much more open and sharing lots of things about their lives than I can be like, one of My. I have a very close friend who.

[A]

Who.

[B]

Who always used to accuse me of being a very private person, which I am. I mean, I don't. I don't post a lot on social media in terms of, like, my, you know, my everyday life. It's. And it's mostly just because I don't. I don't work. I don't need. I don't. I just. I don't know. I don't need commentary on it. But, you know, but. But I. For me, the other thing, even with this very.

[A]

This other.

[B]

This close friend who was always like, oh, my God, you never tell me if you're going on a date. You know, it's. And it's. For me, it was partially because I didn't want other people getting their hopes up for me.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

And. And. And. And making. Making something out of something that wasn't there, because then my mind would go the Jordan Berman route of, like, oh, well, it could be this thing. And, you know, and. And. And because of all of that, you know, just kind of like if I did meet somebody that I found a connection with that that I thought might be going somewhere, I might hold off on some saying something directly to the people closest to me because of that, because I didn't want them to blow it out of proportion. I wanted to. I wanted to keep it. I wanted to keep it small until I. Until I was sure that it was something. And so I. So speaking from my own place, I. I have a feeling that's probably where Laura's coming from, because she doesn't want to tell.

[A]

Tell.

[B]

She doesn't want to tell Jordan and have him immediately blow it out of proportion of, oh, you met somebody. Well, now what?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she's. She's trying to, in her own way, protect him from getting his feelings hurt over nothing before. It's something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And unfortunately, it back. It backfires on her. And, you know, and. And he's more hurt that she didn't tell him that he didn't. That she didn't tell him to begin with.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I've also had happen to me. Like, I've. I've. I've totally been in that place before. So I. But. But I. I think that that's why. Why she doesn't say something.

[A]

Listen, you hope that your friends don't have, you know, ill intent with their actions towards you. Right. It just some. It's just sometimes when the chips are down, people show either their true intentions or, like, you know, what really matters to them, or sometimes in A moment of panic. People just act poorly. You know, as I've. I say this in my play, desperate. When people are desperate, they tend to do stupid things and desperation can come in any form, in any situation. So it doesn't have to be like, you know, getting yourself out of a literal. Well, it can be like my best friend who I also know like has manic depressive suicidal tendencies and is like so focused on being someone I've met someone, it's going really great. But like I know how he's gonna be if I tell him he's gonna start like spiraling and, and, and just going to start planning our wedding, you know, before he and I even move in together. Like what, what do I do? Like, let me just hold off a little bit. And then he ends up finding out through another person. Because that's usually how it goes if you ever see a movie. Kids, I just saw no Hard Feelings Yesterday with my 99 year old grandma because she's literally Jordan Berman, everybody. There's the, the reveal that Jennifer Lawrence has been hired by Andrew Barth Feldman's parents of course is revealed to him accidentally because that's always how it goes. Goes. Right. It's always how it goes. Yeah. Don't, don't hide things from your friends that are important. They, they should know. Let, let them know. Sure. Let them know. And if you're, and if you're a Jordan, you know, take things one day at a time. Grain of salt, you know what I mean?

[B]

Yes. And. Well, and yeah, maybe, maybe just don't, don't go so hard.

[A]

Yeah. Well there's so much about life that's so difficult and you kind of. You gotta learn how to accept the things you cannot change.

[B]

Right. I was. This last weekend I was, I went to see a. For lack of better terms, I'll call it a variety show. But there were a couple of comedians and one of them was a, a woman who was a stand up and she had worked as a. I don't. She, she, she had a like a study studied in, in, in like biological studies but was working for some, for some volunteer organization where she was teaching kids about the environment.

[A]

Uhuh.

[B]

And. And they, she, they'd given seeds out to all of the kids to each plant a seed in this garden in the back. But she was alternating. And there were pumpkin seeds and sunflowers seeds and then, and she gave a sunflower seed to this kid and then, and then to the kid next to them she gave a pumpkin seed and the kid, she gave the Pumpkin seed to started freaking out because their best friend had a sunflower seed. And she said in that moment I wanted to look at that 6 year old dead in the face and say, none of this fucking matters.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And I, and I had, I had a solid laugh because I was like, man, the number of times that I've had that told to me when I've, you know, maybe started to overreact about something in talking to something, talking about something to a friend of mine where they're like, none of this matters. Get over it. And I think, but it, but in the moment it feels like it matters.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think it's, it's, it's the, it's having the perspective and ability to take a step back a little bit and go, okay, okay.

[A]

And sometimes you gotta.

[B]

What am I reacting to?

[A]

Well, sometimes you just gotta process through it and then, and then move on. You know, it's like you gotta scream through the scream in your pillow so you can not have the ulcer later.

[B]

You know, but maybe if you're Jordan Berman and you've already taken step one to say, I think I need to remove myself from this occasion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And someone comes at you and says, you maybe go, listen, I really don't wanna fight with you right now. Now I'm already in a really tough place. I want you to have a good evening. It's best for me if I just leave.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I love you and I'll talk to you tomorrow.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that's where that conversation should have ended.

[A]

Should have.

[B]

But it didn't.

[A]

Yes. But also Laura should not have said you.

[B]

She should not have. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not saying that that was the right choice. I'm just saying.

[A]

But that's, that's, that's the human element.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's. There is the part of me that goes, goes. I understand that it, this is important to you and like, this is also cumulative because you. He apparently was like pissy at her engagement party or something like that and like, you know, staring daggers at me like he thought I wasn't going to notice. I noticed. So, yes, I understand, like this is a buildup for you, but also this is not a moment where he's being pissy. This is a moment where he's legitimately looking depressed.

[B]

He's trying. Well, and he's trying to proactively remove himself.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, he, he does. He. In that moment, Jordan actually does the correct thing and then gets poked a million times with a saber.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's, it's bad, but it's fine. They, they eventually get on. If you have these issues with your friends, let me just say, like all out brawls make good theatrical drama. They do not make good moments in your life.

[B]

No. Talk it through.

[A]

Talk it through and really like try to figure out exactly what it is you are trying to get across to another person, especially when they're a friend. Right. It's if, if it is someone who you do consider a friend, even if you're angry with them, you ultimately still want to be their friend afterwards. So you have, and think like if some, if your friend was angry with you, how would you want them to tell you? Would you want them to shout in your face?

[B]

Right. Well, and, and yeah, I, I think the, the hardest part with the, with their particular fight is, is the. God, I'm, I'm glad this has never happened to me. But the use of information as a weapon against somebody is really hurtful. Well, that's not true. I've had it. I've had that happen to me before, but not to that degree.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And I, and you know, and we're, we're all sensitive beings.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, and having the truth thrown at you in a hateful way and used in a negative way when it's something that maybe you don't have control over is just not, not helpful in moving forward in the situation.

[A]

What's the information that gets thrown out? Is it like all the stuff he says about her wedding and stuff? Just.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, just. It's. I, I think it's, it's, it's. Yeah, it's just the stuff that he, that he uses to. That's, that's been building up over the last several months.

[A]

Okay. I was about to say, like, I don't remember him being like, yeah, Laura, you and your fat earlobes. Like, she's like. That's what I'm sensitive about.

[B]

Oh, he's not, he, he doesn't say anything physical without her, which, which I'm grateful for. I think, I think that even, even in that fight he, with, with some very low blows, he doesn't take it to a physical place. He doesn't take it to, you know, to, to anything other than just deep. He takes it to deep emotional connection, which in some ways, in many ways is worse. But you know, but, but sometimes throwing in a cheap physical jab can just be icing on a cake or, or.

[A]

A jab at the past, you know, like. Did you watch Succession?

[B]

I did not.

[A]

You don't need to. I just, My mom and I just. My, my mom and I just finished it last night. And when I say we, I mean, she was watching and I was sort of sitting there because she wanted someone to be there while she watched it. Sure, I did not care for it much. But yeah, like towards the end, you know, one of the siblings, Shiv, says to Kendall, you know, like a very personal thing that's like from his past, like a past he did sort of as like a major jab. And that's another sort of like double edged sword with friendships is like, you have a lot of dirt on each other, a lot of stuff that you've forgiven each other for that you've placated each other about. Like if, when you've done wrong and your friend is there to kind of confirm for you, like, you're actually not a piece of, like, you made a mistake, it's fine. And then like, God forbid you get into a major heated argument, they will bring up the shitty thing you did and be like, yeah, you're a shitty person. Actually. Actually. Right?

[B]

You're like, but you said it was okay.

[A]

It's like, I lied. I lied. I wanted your money. I wanted your money. I wanted your man. No, it's, that's, that's, that's always the danger of letting somebody in, right? And you, you just hope that the people you do let in ultimately care about you and have your best interest at heart, so. Which is why it's easy to forgive in the end. You'll. It'll hurt in a minute. As Jordan's grandma says. We didn't quote this yet. He calls grandma on his way to Laura's wedding. He's in the hotel, about to head to the ceremony. He's like, I don't know how I'm going to get through this. It's. I. It's so bad. I just feel awful. And she says to him, it's a long book and you're currently in a very difficult chapter, especially because you don't know when it's going to end. But it will end. The book is long. Mm. And it's true.

[B]

It is true.

[A]

It's true. And that's sort. I mean, think about, like, you know, 10 minutes can seem like an eternity if you don't know it's 10 minutes, right?

[B]

Oh, yeah. When you don't realize that something's only going to be 10 minutes long.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And unfortunately with life, you don't know, Right. You don't know when the next chapter is.

[B]

You can't always get a heads up.

[A]

You can't always get what you want. That should have been Laura's song at her wedding to Jordan is a big fuck you like rubbing her boobs. Boobs. And be like, you can't always get what you want, Jordan. But I did and like run off. Yeah. That's truly the Straits versus the gays. Okay, that's, I think that's a wrap on significant other, don't you? What a way to wrap it up. Lindsay. Lindsay. Lindsay Mendez rubbing her breastesses. That's, that's, that's, that should be the opening image of Merrily We Roll Along. And then, and then Jonathan. I know. I'm saying and then Jonathan Groff coming on with a giant says, it says you're family friendly. Company dump.

[B]

I think there are a lot of people who would appreciate that.

[A]

Oh sure. Sell 10,000 more tickets.

[B]

Ting dog.

[A]

You and I really are the Trixie and Kati of the Broadway podcast universe, wouldn't you say?

[B]

With less meth. Yes.

[A]

Less meth. And, and just as much teeth, though. True. And more hair, less makeup. Less hair, less meth, more hair. And this has always been a delight. You're always a delight.

[B]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for.

[A]

Color coordinating with our chairs today.

[B]

I, I do what I can.

[A]

Where can the listeners find you if they want to find you?

[B]

As always, Instagram is the best. Adam Ells A D A M E L S 80 Yep.

[A]

I will say you don't post a lot, but your stories are fun. You, you do share nice stuff on your stories.

[B]

I try to, I mean, I think, yeah, for me it's, I, I, I would rather I try to share actual moments where I'm like, I, I try to not share cute curated stuff. I try to not like to be overly curative when I'm posting. I, I try to, like in the moment, take a picture of something that I'm actually enjoying and post it right then instead of, you know, trying to find the, the perfect way to, to expound the information, I will vouch if.

[A]

You can try become a good friend of Adam Ellsbury. Because if you become, if you follow each other on Instagram and you become his friend, he will send you some fun meme on DM. DMs. He, he knows he finds some good up there. Oh yeah, that's true. Yeah. It's maybe the only reason I'm still friends with you. You sent me some good.

[B]

There's, listen, there are some great meme creators out there and I live for the work.

[A]

Yeah, I.

[B]

Wait, I'm sorry. And I misquoted my. I don't know why I put the 80 on the end. That was my. That was an old screen handle of mine. It's just Adam Ells at 80am Els, there you are.

[A]

If you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram only at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, give us a nice 5 star rating or little review.

[B]

Review.

[A]

We're recording this a couple of days after Philippe's episode, so there are no reviews in between, but maybe there's one after that episode comes out. So if I don't read it on this episode, I am truly sorry. We are going to take a bit of a break after this episode and starting a new series, part of which is because this, as I said, this comes out the day I go see Barbie for the first time and then I'll be seeing it the day after that. And then I'm actually. Okay. Oh, here's a little plug. If you are in New York City this weekend, this is the weekend of the 21st, the 22nd. If you're going to BroadwayCon, I'm going to be on a panel there on how to stop. At the first time, I thought you were just gonna say Jesus.

[B]

Jesus Christ. Broadway Con.

[A]

How'd you get in there?

[B]

Who.

[A]

Who did you blow to get into Broadway Con?

[B]

She's the cum dumpster of Broadway.

[A]

Oh, no, that's someone else we can mention.

[B]

Probably is.

[A]

No, I'm gonna be on a panel about how to start a Broadway podcast and I'm gonna be on there with friend of the pod, Connor McDowell and Alana.

[B]

Oh, from. From Drama.

[A]

Yes. With Dylan. Brother Dylan. And then also Alana Levine, a little known for. Yes. And then there's another person. I don't remember who. That's all I have to say. Really. Yeah. If you want to. If you want to see me at BroadwayCon with Connor and Alana, then please come and see us. Otherwise, that's it. I'm trying to think who. I'm not going to tell you guys what the next series is about because it's between two and I'm actually going to put it to a vote either on Instagram or on Threads, if you want to follow me on Threads.

[B]

Oh, right, you're on another social handle all of a sudden. But so are you. I am. I'm on threads, but I haven't posted a.

[A]

No, it's new. I've had three posts on Threads. I stand by all three of Them. I think they're all good.

[B]

I won one of them.

[A]

You did one?

[B]

In quotes.

[A]

It was the name three Madeline Khan movies. But I actually hadn't. I. My first one was about Barbie on brand, which was that Barbie is gonna be as big a franchise as Harry Potter, except better because the only turf and Barbie is Astroturf.

[B]

But I'm also speaking of Madeline Khan. If you have never seen what's Up Doc? Highly recommend.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Also if you've never seen Paper Moon. The whole movie is good. It's a little slow in the third act.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Act two is the best part. It's the Meline Kahn section and she has one of my favorite movie monologues ever. If you just. Honestly, even if you don't want to watch the whole movie, if you watch. If you. If you look at Madeline Kahn Paper.

[A]

Moon monologue on YouTube.

[B]

On YouTube. It's like a two and a half minute monologue. And it's incredible.

[A]

It is incredible.

[B]

Son of a.

[A]

Son of a. When everyone. The. It's one of those Oscars, it's one of those Oscar things everyone talks about. Like, if Tatum o' Neill had rightfully been put in leading actress, Madeline would have won featured and Tatum could have possibly won lead that year. I don't remember who won that year. Was it Glenda Jackson, 73?

[B]

It might have been.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Little Trixie sit up front with a big tit.

[A]

The big tits are big old tits.

[B]

Big tits.

[A]

Big tits. Yeah. Oh, Kanzi, she's great. Kanzi Kunzy. Yeah. No, you can follow me on Threads.

[B]

Played Amalia.

[A]

They did Meline for only one night, though. And with a piano.

[B]

She sounds great. And a harp. There's a couple other instruments.

[A]

Okay. No, she does sound good. She also does a really good Glitter and be gay. She does. And. And that audience is going so insane that I wish there was video because I want to know what the she's doing.

[B]

Oh, yeah, sorry. Two more things for everybody to look up on YouTube. Look, look, it's. It's just audio, but look at Meline Khan singing Vanilla Ice Cream and Glitter and be gay. You will not. Not regret.

[A]

You will not regret it. Her Glitter Me gay is going to end fast. It's fast. It's.

[B]

Those runs are real fast.

[A]

That's how you know that Bernie, that Lenny was conducting. Because that. That's a fast tempo. He, he.

[B]

Leonard Bernstein conducts faster than Paul Gemini. And that's saying something.

[A]

That is saying something. All right, so that's it. I'm trying to think who I Should have close this out today. Broadway diva.

[B]

You've got Lindsay Mendez. Have you done her before?

[A]

I think I have. Okay. Yeah, I did, because I had her. I think I had her close out with, of all things, the Ballad of Rachel Berry from 35 mil of meter. Because I was. I was being an.

[B]

You can have dear sweet Gideon Glick in Spring Awakening.

[A]

We haven't done a boy yet. And maybe this is the episode where we do a boy.

[B]

Maybe. I mean, just to hear him going, oh, God, touch me. Just like I was thinking of his duet with.

[A]

I know. Aren't you. I know what you're talking about. Or speaking of. Okay, first of all, another reason. Watch. What's up, Doc? Barbara Streisand in that movie. In a way. Way that coccyx.

[B]

I hope it's not your coccyx.

[A]

It's the same way that Hanson in All Spring Awakenings.

[B]

You could also. I mean, you've got Rebecca Naomi Jones.

[A]

Yeah, we do. Let's do. No, I think I did Rebecca on Murder, Ballad 1. So we won't do Rebecca then.

[B]

You could do Barbara Berry doing her. Harry, you want to come here?

[A]

What? You want to stand there? Yeah. You know what? You know what? Let's honor that a. Let's do Barbara Berry dialogue. Dialogue. Dialogue.

[B]

Oh, she sings. Poor baby.

[A]

Yeah, we could do. Well, it's either the dialogue or the poor baby. We'll decide which one. Unclear. Unclear. We'll figure out next week.

[B]

But Bar. But yeah, broad, Broadway hair.

[A]

You want. No, no. You want to know why we're gonna do Barbara Barry? Why? Because this is seeing Barbie and it's. And it's coming out on the same day, so Barbie and Barbie.

[B]

All right. Barbie Berry.

[A]

Barbie is shorter. Barbara, ain't it?

[B]

Tina is Barbara.

[A]

Mary. Barbara. Barbara. Barry. Barbara Barry. Barbara. Hey, Barbara Barry. Hi. Hi, Ken. Hey, Gideon. Yeah, that's it. So join us in a couple of weeks when we will start up again and God knows what. And that's it. Thank you so much for lasting this long, guys. I hope this episode was as good for you as it was for us. I did cry, but silently. You guys did not hear it, but I. I had a tear.

[B]

If you're on the Patreon, maybe it'll. It'll be captured.

[A]

Maybe.

[B]

Maybe you'll see him wipe away the tears.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I didn't call it out. Are you so proud of me?

[A]

I am.

[B]

I wasn't going to.

[A]

No. But. But I. I was always. Maybe because you didn't. I wasn't sure if you saw.

[B]

Oh, I. I clocked it. But I. Like we already talked about it. I'm not going to judge anybody for no, I got.

[A]

I got close. I was on the verge tears a couple of different times during this episode, but I only had I. I noticed one where you were getting a little choked and that's saying something as both of our gag reflexes are gone with the wind. But. Shut up. I'm making a joke. But no, I only had fat, fat, fat tears come down my face once and it was all. You were talking but I did it silently. But yeah, so tears did happen. Anywho, love you all. Thank you so much for listening. And that's it. Have a great couple of weeks. Enjoy Barbie, guys. Fuck knows I will.

[B]

It's summer vacation.

[A]

It's summer vacation, baby. And that's it. Dance the night away. Takes away Barbie. Bye Harry. Huh?

[B]

Do you want to stand there?

[A]

Okay, I'm standing here. Now what, darling?

[B]

Just come at me.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You like it's the little things.

[A]

You do together do together do together that make perfect.