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Broadway Breakdown
So. Let's Talk WICKED (PART 1) w/ Joel Guerrero-Sparks
02:02:44
Part 1 Discussion of a Two Part Movie
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- [00:07]
A
Poor governor forced to reside with someone so disgusted can't find. We just want to tell you we're all on your side we share your love what are you feeling so sudden.
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B
And new I thought the moment I.
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A
Laid eyes on you. Hello, all you theater lovers, both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the rawipodcast hosts. And we are doing something a little special today that was specifically requested by the listeners on the Discord Channel, which, again, if you haven't joined yet, please do. There will be a link in the description box. I do understand sometimes that the links get messy. Discord is a raging bitch, and even though I set the links to never expire, that doesn't stop Discord from doing whatever they damn well please. As the great Gia Gunn, what you want to do isn't necessarily what you're going to do. So if you're having problems with the link of the Discord Channel, please message me on Instagram, Matt Koplik, usual spelling, let me know. I will send you a direct link. But the Discord Channel requested that I do an episode about the wicked movie, Wicked Part 1, which came out this November to massive acclaim and huge box office, and listeners wanted us to talk about it. So we will. And that's going to happen very shortly with friend, dear friend and guest, Joel Sparks. But before we do any of that, guess what? A little bit of housekeeping. Sorry, not sorry. If you don't want to deal with this, just jump ahead like three minutes. That's when we're going to get to the good stuff. I'm reading this now because I'm recording with Joel the day after I record this. And our time, even though we're carving out a large chunk of time, we don't have unlimited time when we record, so I didn't want to, you know, eat up our however many minutes. We end up recording Wicked with reading these reviews, and we got some new reviews, and they're all amazing, and I want to give them their due. So like I said, if you don't want to hear any of this, just jump ahead like three or four minutes. And that will be right where the Wicked episode really kind of kicks into high gear. In the meantime, I need to start off with a big one, a very long one, and it's actually 1, 2, 3. It's five reviews. So let's get to it. Cue the Light in The Piazza Overture 5 Star Best Broadway Podcast this podcast is the top one. Could compare it to an arrow collar coolidge dollar or the nimble feet of Fred Astaire. On a more serious note, this podcast is great for any fan of Broadway and or musical theater. His deep dives of shows are so intense, but you learn so much about the show in addition to Broadway history from the episodes. His knowledge of the Great White Way is insane, but listening to his show you feel as if you're part of the conversation. Also, while episodes are released weekly, the older episodes are relistenable and worth listening to. Additionally, his knowledge on current Broadway also helps someone stay up to date on all the current news and shows. I was in a bit of a Broadway drought as life got busy with work, but after binging his show I literally said enough is enough and got myself a ticket to my first Broadway show in six years. Six years. My God. Okay. Lastly, the guests he has on his show are all top notch. This show has led me down the Broadway rabbit hole to listening to his guests podcast and seeking them out. Shout out to Rob Schneider. Don't shout out Rob Schneider. That bitch. Overall, great show. Would recommend to anyone who loves Broadway or musical theater in general. P.S. this is more personal. My apartment has never been cleaner because of Matt and this show thanks to the runtime being 23 hours and my ADHD need to constantly be doing something something. I clean to his show and next thing you know three hours have passed which felt like 30 minutes and the place is spotless. Lol. Thank you very much. Nickv1 Next up, smiley face five stars. I look forward to this podcast and enjoy Matt's reviews even if I sometimes don't agree with him. I appreciate that Matt makes me think about things from a different perspective. Thank you so much. As I said, you don't have to agree. I just hope that we can all think about these things together. Next up, Anna in Louisiana. Just fabulous. Five stars. I live far, far away from NYC and Broadway and am a passionate theater lover. The history and knowledge that Matt shares on this show makes me feel like I am connected to the beating heart of theater. His opinions and thoughts, whether I agree with them or not, are and based around trying to make a piece as good as it can try to be. Listening to reviews of shows he's seen makes me feel like I have access to what's happening in the theater scene and that is worth its weight unfold. I also love the episodes when he takes a deep dive into particular shows and delves into their histories and unearths details of the creation and development. Bravo, Matt, love. Thank you, Annie and Louisiana. That's very nice. Now, next up, five stars. Dramatic mask, comedy mask. It's an emoji. So okay, I love this. The reviews are very thoughtful, honest, non biased, and fair. When Matt discusses the shows, he has the high energy that makes this podcast so special when compared to other Broadway podcasts. As a massive theater geek myself, I love this. Keep up the good work, Matt. Smiley face, smiley face, smiley face, tongue sticking out, winky emoji, smiley face, smiley face, smiley face. And their name is so Gay. I love it. Thank you so much. So gay. I love it. And last but not least, we have Brian with five stars. The best around. Matt's saucy but fair podcast is my favorite Broadway podcast. Go to. I see most musicals each season and I like that his reviews corroborate much of what I'm thinking in a more articulate manner. Oh, God, I'm articulate. His humor, insight, and knowledge work together to present a kitchen table conversational podcast that flies by even during longer episodes. When he wraps up, I inevitably look at my watch. Surprised. The time flew by. Bravo to him. Best find of my podcast listening experience. Thank you very much. And without further ado, everybody. First of all, just saying, awesome job with these reviews, guys. You are wonderful and I appreciate it very much. Keep up the good work. As I mentioned, BPN will email me from time to time and be like, no, you get a lot of reviews and they're all very nice. And I'm like, yeah, the people who listen to this podcast fucking rule. So without further ado, let us get wickhead and we've begun. Broadway breakdown listeners, uncultured I often call them, please welcome to the pod for the very first time. My dear, dear, dear friend, one of my bosom Buddy sisters, Ms. Joel Sparks.
- [06:59]
B
Hi, Joel Guerrero Sparks. She's a married lady now.
- [07:02]
A
Oh, that's right.
- [07:03]
B
Yes.
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A
Property now, baby.
- [07:10]
B
Exactly.
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A
Joel, thank you for coming on to talk about Wicked.
- [07:15]
B
Oh, no, thank you necessary. I'll talk to anybody with a heartbeat about it.
- [07:19]
A
Absolutely. I mean, well, when I think of the song, what is this feeling? There's only one person in the entire world I could sing it with, and it is indeed you.
- [07:29]
B
That is very true. That's very appropriate. Yeah, that is very appropriate. I. I'll go into my Glinda track for that.
- [07:36]
A
I was about to say, I think you and I can flip flop on that. It's one of the Few things about us that's versatile.
- [07:42]
B
That's also true. Yeah, no, I am definitely the Glinda to your Elphaba for sure.
- [07:46]
A
You're definitely the Glinda to my Elphaba for sure. I would say after like noon, you are the Glinda to my Alphabet. But if we were to do like a theater works kids performance at 10am I am the Glinda tier Alphabet.
- [07:58]
B
I'm a curmudgeon. Yes.
- [07:59]
A
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- [08:01]
B
All in black, Bat Boy, no matter what.
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A
So I'm gonna do my best to kind of keep us on track because we got a lot to cover. We gotta talk about the movie. We gotta talk about both of our relationships with the show. I also PhD medication.
- [08:14]
B
I'm good to go.
- [08:15]
A
Phenomenal. I also have entries from the Broadway Breakdown Discord Channel from all the listeners who wanted to discuss things there. I also asked the listeners on the Discord Channel to give me their three. The three numbers that they thought were the most successful in the movie. So I have the tallying of all.
- [08:32]
B
Of that in order.
- [08:34]
A
Yes, I will. Yes, I have in order the most votes to the least votes that people judge of that. Well, you know, things. These things do happen. So Jolie, before we get into the movie itself, what is your relationship with Wicked?
- [08:53]
B
I. I am of the Wicked. Wicked was the thing. Wicked was the early. I was in the early 2000 drama club. We are living. Wicked was Bible. But like if you were. If you were like super into it, then like you really understood the intricacies of Avenue Q. Like we're able to discuss why Avenue Q1 and then you just listen to all of those soundtracks on repeat.
- [09:19]
A
Actually Wicked, the sound past albums on repeat. Uncultured soundtrack is for movie.
- [09:26]
B
Oh, leave it to the comment section. Come at me.
- [09:29]
A
Oh my God. Country bumpkin on my podcast God down.
- [09:34]
B
To Georgia now called a soundtrack on.
- [09:36]
A
That disc you got real there can call it soundtrack.
- [09:40]
B
No, we. I was renovating a townhouse when Wicked was first released and so I was listening to that recording on repeat while I was pretending to do construction as a little 13 year old gay boy in Washington D.C. so like Wicked, Wicked was the thing. And the thing that was really cool for me with Wicked is that I. There's not a track for me in it. Like there was never a world where I was like, I'm going to be. Nope. Never was happening like it. So what was interesting about that was it was kind of the first show that I dissected from an actor standpoint of all the motivations of how the whole puzzle piece comes together. And so, you know, I'm of the generation where Wicked was on my rent, you know, and that was the thing that got me hooked into this could be a career. This is what I want to train in. This is the thing I want to sit with for the rest of my life. Like, so seeing the original cast, I think it was in June 2024 or 22,004, not 24, so like 20 years ago now was, was earth shattering. It was a life changing experience. And, you know, there's a lot of things to say analytically about that show now. Now that I know, you know, but it is one of those things that is. I think that Wicked at its core is nostalgic. It was nostalgic when it came out because all of us that were in the wizard, you know, we went to go see Wicked and within the first viewing of it is nostalgic. And now 20 years later, it's even more special.
- [11:21]
A
Yeah, it's. And, and you've seen Wicked since 2004. Yeah. So you've seen. Yeah, yeah. Well, maybe not live, but I've watched videos on the two of you.
- [11:33]
B
I've, I, I, I've, I've definitely gone down the boob tube. Rabbit holes. I would, I knew this is Eden's option. This is what shos. This is Megan Hilty, what she does, you know, Like, I knew every replacement cast and saw all of those things. But I saw it live. I saw the first national tour.
- [11:53]
A
Oh, shit.
- [11:54]
B
I did. I saw it at the Kennedy center. And Jenna Lee Green, who was the Nessarose on that, she was in Little Sabrina, the TV show, and she was the Elphaba cover too. So she went on for Elphaba on that performance. So I did not see Ms. Block.
- [12:12]
A
That's all right. That's fine.
- [12:15]
B
That's okay.
- [12:17]
A
But it would have been nice to.
- [12:18]
B
Hear it sung healthily.
- [12:20]
A
Sure. Okay. I'm okay. This is where I'm gonna be. Kind of blinders on. I also saw Wicked with the original cast. I saw the entire original company the week before it opened. And it was a, that's a core memory for me. And I saw it again, I want to say that August, because Chenoweth and Norbert and Joel had left. So it was George Hearn, Joey McIntyre and Jennifer Laura Thompson. And then I hadn't seen it live.
- [12:53]
B
She was so tall.
- [12:54]
A
She was so tall. I hadn't seen it live again since post Covid. And I don't remember who was in the cast when I saw it post Covid, but I'd seen like, you know, videos of all the different Alphabas and Glindas and everyone has their takes and some voices are stronger than others. But I. And we'll get into all of this when we talk about the movie, but I maintain that that original cast is still the best cast of Wicked. And the unfortunate thing is that they would never be cast in it today because of how we perceive those roles on Broadway to be, of how we now expect them to sound and what we expect in terms of riffs, in terms of type, in terms of vocal quality. I. When I saw it again post Covid, some I had been asked on, I think on the, on Instagram or on the podcast camera, somebody was like, was it just as good as when you first saw it? And I said, no. And it's not the fault of any of the actors. But like, the show has now been running for 21 years. Joe Mantello has not stepped foot into that building more than five times since the show has opened. It is. Every associate under the sun is running that show. And this is not hearsay. Like, I, I have many friends who have been in Wicked, Broadway, national Tour, and they all say, like, you know, it is run like a machine. They'll tell you, they will tell you, like, what a character's intention is. So they won't be like, if you ask a question why you have to stand there, they won't say like, because I say so. They like, have a notebook be like, yes, you, you go stage left because your character's very sad in this line. And the thing is, like, you can't argue against it. So that's where it's still a machine. But it's not as if they're like, I don't know, you just lift up your hand like they have a 10,000 page Bible. But it is very rigid in that respect. And so when I said it wasn't as good, like, I saw, we both saw a cast of all stars, people who had either won Tony Awards or were going to go on and win Tony Awards or be nominated for Tony Awards personally directed by Joe Mantello. And we were in a room full of 1800 people who, the night I saw it, none of us had heard Defying Gravity before. The night you saw it, most of the room hadn't heard Defying Gravity before. So it was just like, you can't recapture that in a moment. And I think that the first thing I'll say about this movie that I enjoy is that when it was over. So I saw it twice so I could get a clear opinion of it. The first time I saw it with my mom.
- [15:18]
B
Did you see it?
- [15:19]
A
Which one?
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B
How long, how far apart were your viewings?
- [15:22]
A
Four days.
- [15:23]
B
Four days?
- [15:24]
A
Yeah.
- [15:24]
B
24 hours.
- [15:27]
A
That sounds about right for you. That sounds about right for you. I needed some distance because I see every movie musical twice more if I love it. But I always. I always see them twice to lock in my opinion, because I don't trust my first go around. But I cried at the end of the first showing with my mom. And it wasn't necessarily that I was like. Of wicked.
- [15:46]
B
Yeah.
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A
There wasn't so much that I was like, so super moved, but I. My mom was like, oh, so did you just like love the movie? I was like, I really liked it. It's just that that's the song. And like, I haven't felt so excited.
- [15:57]
B
About the song in 20 years.
- [15:59]
A
Like, it was. It was very exciting to have that moment.
- [16:02]
B
I completely agree. And having it in two parts, I was so excited to just get to the theater and see it and have that moment. And I think I saw it twice in 24 hours because the first time I saw it, I feel like the whole way through, every single landmark that we hit, by the time we got to end of Dancing Through Life, I was like, oh, thank God. Okay. Oh, thank God. It was just such a relief. Every single chapter that we through that I didn't like, enjoy the storytelling and the added elements as much as I did in the second viewing of it. And also, if you have not seen it and you are listening to this podcast, IMAX is kind of an important viewing.
- [16:45]
A
I would say the biggest screen you can possibly find. I will also say the second time I saw it, we did Dolby Digital, which was a huge improvement on the coloring of the movie, which is. We will also discuss because that is something that has been controversial on film Internet is the cinematography and the coloring of the movie. I agree, yes.
- [17:06]
B
But also the sound mixing is a little tricky in terms of the vocals because those big booms are ready for the explosions of action movies. And then we're needing to have the nice treble come through for the mixing of these beautiful female voices coming through. And sometimes that is lost in the IMAX experience, which I feel like should have been fixed. But that's my.
- [17:29]
A
I mean, that's sort of the problem when you have a widespread movie that was made. I'll be clear. Like, whatever you think of the movie, it was made meticulously by These people in like a specific room and with certain decibels and, and specific color grading, and then they carried out to 4,000 screens across the country where they just hope that every theater will do it how they ask. And 50 of the time they won't. But, yeah, and that affects how people feel about the movie. But, yeah, I think, yeah, I, I have thoughts. I think I agree with you. The first time, it was also just nice that there was nothing so blatantly terrible about any of the choices that I. That we could relax. Because I do have notes, but none of them are like, how dare you notes. None of them are cats, Phantom of the Opera level. It's like minor quibbles for me.
- [18:21]
B
I. I mean, when I direct a show, the better the show is, the more notes I have. So, like, any sort of critique that I might say in these next few minutes is in that light of, like, the better something is, the more I.
- [18:38]
A
Have to say about it, you know, Sure, I think. But I'm also just me. So it's really hard for me not to have notes about anything that I see because. And it's not because. It's not because something is bad. It's just because, like, I come from stock that has eyes for the faults, for the problems. Because it's like, well, if I fix that, then it'll be perfect. But that's. Nothing's ever perfect. So, yes, when we go ahead with this, I do want to clarify for myself and my life. I do really like this movie. I can say that officially now, having seen it twice. There are parts of it that I adore. There's. And there's nothing in it that I. I dislike. It's more that there are things in it that I'm like, I would love to go in there and just make it a little bit better. Because that thing I just saw five minutes ago was exceptional. And this part is fine. I would like for it to. I would like for it to be non stop exceptional, but that's also. It's a hard. That's a hard, you know, bar to cross. Somebody asked me on the Discord, or maybe it was. Maybe it was Instagram, I can't remember. But where this ranks in movie adaptations of stage musicals for me.
- [19:45]
B
Number one and the podcast.
- [19:48]
A
You guys heard it from Joel. It's his number one.
- [19:50]
B
Number one. And the podcast. Nothing's wrong. Everything's perfect.
- [19:53]
A
It's not. It's not my number one. The question was whether it's in my number five. It's in my top Five or my top ten? I thought about it this afternoon for a little bit and I can safely say it is definitely in the top 10. I'm going to need to talk with Joel throughout this episode to decide if it cracks the five, because my five are pretty locked.
- [20:11]
B
I will crack your five. I will absolutely. What are your five? What is the top five that are locked?
- [20:16]
A
The top five that are locked. And it's not just because they're faithful or anything like that. Like, no, they're just. They are extraordinary adaptations of those shows. And it's Sound of Music, Oliver, Chicago, Little Shop of Horrors, and Hedwig and the Angry Inch. For me, that's like an All Star 5. And if you crack it. I'm not sure if I would put Wicked in the five just yet. I need more convincing and I'll. We'll talk about why. We will talk about why.
- [20:43]
B
Jolie, start the overture.
- [20:50]
A
So let.
- [20:52]
B
I have a question.
- [20:53]
A
Yes, baby?
- [20:53]
B
For that top five, was that because of nostalgia? Is nostalgia factored into that time of life that it came in out in childhood memories, or are we strictly looking at film?
- [21:04]
A
Well, yes. I was famously very young when the Sound of Music movie came out. I was so. I was like three or four. No, I. I've watched all of these movies multiple times, and I marvel at how well they're done. Chicago, I still think is an airtight film. Like, there's not a wasted second. That thing moves like a bullet train. And it's incredible if I have one note about it. And I mean, listen, I've got like maximum four notes on any of these movies. Chicago. My only note is, like, sometimes the film editing is a little quick, which is. That is of the time it came out. It was the year after Moulin Rouge. It was like. And like five years after Evita. If you were doing a movie musical, it had to be edited like mtv. So I get. I get that. Little Shop also, I think, airtight. The controversial subject is the ending. But if you want to know my thoughts on the ending of the. The theatrical ending of the movie, you can listen to the Little Shop of Horrors episode with Sutton Lee Seymour. Oliver is almost perfect. The only thing about Oliver is that the young woman they had dubbed the singing voice of Oliver is not a good match. So, like, there's a little disconnect there. But otherwise that movie is incredible and has, in my opinion, the ultimate adaptation of a song from stage to screen, which is Oompapa. No, you. You. You laugh, but no, I don't think.
- [22:23]
B
That that's where you're gonna go with that. But, yeah, I completely, completely agree with that.
- [22:27]
A
For those of you who don't remember when we talked about. In the Oliver episode, Oompapa is is the dumbest song. It has no reason to exist in the stage show other than it opens act two, and it's like, hey, you got three more minutes of dumb song to get back from the bathroom. The movie. They're like, okay, we're actually going to make Nancy's opening song, It's a Fine Life, and not have her be with the dumb orphans. She's going to do it in the pub and we're going to establish, like, she's with Bill and she's really good at, like, riling up a crowd at the pub. Second half of the movie, she makes the plan with the old dude to get Oliver back to him, but. But a burglary goes wrong. And so Bill and Fagin have Oliver trapped in the pub. It's like 15 minutes to midnight where she has to get him to the bridge, and she doesn't know what to do. And she hears the band playing Oompapa. So she starts singing Oompapa and over the course of three and a half minutes, gets the whole bar to join in so she can distract Bill while she gets Oliver out. And the entire time, you're aware of how little time there is left. The stakes are getting higher. The song builds and builds. It's incredible. It's the best adaptation ever of a song because it's so dumb on stage, and they make it so incredible on film. Sound of Music, I think what works is just how cinematic they make it. It's both very faithful to the stage show while making certain tweaks to make it flow better. Like, they take some songs and they move them to later spots. Like Doremi. Happens a lot later in the movie than it happens in the show. In the show, Maria shows up and they're like, we don't like you. She goes, I'll teach you how to sing. And they went, okay. And in the movie, like, they add pranks. They. My favorite things happens with the children in the movie, the stage show. It happens with the Mother Abbess because, you know, menopausal women need songs, too. And Hedwig is just, like, maybe the most visually creative movie adaptation of a stage show. And all of it just really works. And so the reason why I'm debating if Wicked makes it in the top five is that it's not as airtight as Chicago or Little Shop. It is as visually creative as Hedwig, but it's not as out of the box in its thinking. Visually, it's very faithful, which is also why I'm not sure if it can compete against Oliver, which takes a mediocre show and turns it into a thrilling movie by being faithful to the story and the structure, but also being like, hey, this song that you thought was kind of filler, what if we moved it an hour later and put it in this setting? Why would that do? And you sit there peeing your pants. Same thing with sounding music. Wicked's like, no, no, no. Something bad is going to stay exactly where it is. Because why. Why would we put it before what. What is this feeling? Why would we put it right before Sentimental Man? Like, it's going to stay where it is. And it works. It all works. But you know what I mean? Like, there's no, like, reimagining of any song. It's just like, this is such a beautifully cinematic representation of the song and.
- [25:08]
B
It'S fleshed out, right? Like, so there's a couple things that. With the movie musical medium, that is very, very difficult, because in theater, you are going from speaking these scenes into song and having to justify that as a reality, right? And you are able to do that on stage in a proscenium, in a quote unquote, wide shot, right? Like, all you have is the white shot.
- [25:33]
A
Because you go into a stage show, you sign an invisible contract, knowing what's happening is in total reality.
- [25:39]
B
Absolutely, absolutely. And so, like, your physicality, your line deliveries, your heightened emotions are all far more acceptable on stage than they would translate onto screen. So just putting the two with Chicago and Wicked, because I feel like they're very two top contenders. Chicago was creating two worlds, right? Like, you went into the world of musical, and then we had the other world where it was like, the reality and the going back and forth with the musical numbers was a really cool commentary on what was happening. Wicked is one world all the way through. And extending those moments and extending all of those scenes and having Defying Gravity be a different style of sequence, I think completely builds the emotion into those moments, creating it much more cinematically and not having almost a crutch of being able to go back and forth between these two worlds.
- [26:39]
A
Chicago is a tricky analysis in regards to that, because the songs of Chicago are not seamless, they're not organic. The whole point of Chicago on stage is it's a vaudeville, so everything does comment on the scenes. So the movie actually is a great. It wouldn't even call It a crush. Like, it's a great way to do the songs, having it all be in Roxy's imagination. Because even if they were to create a world in Chicago where singing makes sense, the songs would feel like they were just stopping the momentum because you're like, well, why do we need three and a half minutes of Mr. Cellophane? Like, we need to get back to this plot here. Like, everything is commentary. And I think it was a harsh.
- [27:16]
B
Word, but I have to know.
- [27:17]
A
But I know. But I know what you mean. I think. I think that. But where the comparison with Wicked, I think is more apt for something like Sound of Music or even Oliver, because it is about creating an environment where singing makes sense. That's the first thing in a movie you have to do. Does singing make sense in this world? And say what you will about the Sweeney Todd movie, that movie opens up and you're like, yeah, this is a London where people sing. Like, this is not real world London. Yeah. And Wicked, I think A has the benefit of being in a fantasy land that we also do associate with music because of the wizard of Oz.
- [27:50]
B
And it's already been established.
- [27:51]
A
Exactly what I also give Wicked a lot of credit for, which is something that all these other movies do as well, is like, they open and it's like, this is a musical. Get the fuck in or get the the out. Right? Like Little Shop of Horrors. Those urchins come in immediately and sing into your mouth, Hedwig. Like, they come in right in with Tear Me Down, Chicago. Even like, yes, it's done. What's it going for? Like, in the realistic world, but like, they do that overture into all that jazz cross cutting with all the stuff with Roxy and they're like, song and dance, baby. In or out, Sound of Music, she's trolling on that hill. Oliver. They're like, children are going to sing. I know that sucks, but I, like, look at how much they suffer. It's going to be okay.
- [28:33]
B
And look at Mean Girls. Mean Girls went in with being like, it's not a musical.
- [28:39]
A
We don't talk about Bruno. Joel.
- [28:41]
B
No, it's important to talk about it.
- [28:43]
A
Okay. We can talk about the shitty one.
- [28:45]
B
Musical as not being a musical was a mistake.
- [28:48]
A
When you're. When you are embarrassed to be a musical and you try to comment on the fact that you're a musical, you fail. And that's like, one of my biggest sins of the Mean Girls movie musical is how much they tried to make jokes about the fact it was a musical. I'm like, You're a theater kid. Be a theater kid, you fucking dumb, dumb. I digress. I could. I could talk for hours about how much that movie blows, but whatever, Joel, we're going to get further into this, but first we need to take a quick break.
- [29:18]
B
How do you mean?
- [29:19]
A
You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Freddy. And we're back. So Jolie for the uncultured fucks. What is. What is Wicked about.
- [29:41]
B
Oh, Wicked. The untold story of the Witches of Oz. It's. It's.
- [29:47]
A
It's not a Jacqueline Suzanne novel. You find the untold story of the. You sound like Megan Hilty. And death becomes her. Oh, doable, huh?
- [29:59]
B
It's. It's the. It's the villain origin story and. Or the hero origin story for a villain. Well, kind of. And this. Well, I want to get into this later, but it does make a certain character a villain that I. Is not necessarily that much of a villain in the stage show. And the interesting choices that they added into this adaptation, I was like, oh, that makes that choice a lot more intentional. And it does color it in a much stronger way where I feel like the musical allows you to be on the journey that the actor playing the role takes you on.
- [30:36]
A
Yeah.
- [30:37]
B
And so that's an interesting point, but the whole story is about how the Witches of Oz became to be who they are. Their time together at school, their friendship, their mismatch friendship. And the timeline of Wicked is a very long timeline. And the story of the wizard of Oz happens in a very small section towards the end of the show. Wicked. So Wicked covers the whole timeline of Oz before and slightly after the story.
- [31:09]
A
Of wizard of Oz. Yes. The show and movie begin at the tail end of where the wizard of Oz ends and then flashes back however many years that leads up to how wizard of Oz happened, specifically with the Wicked Witch of the west, whose name is Elphaba. Yes. And Glinda, whose original name is Galinda. Yes. And Nala. They're friends and lovers and teachers because they met at Skill, as you said. Yeah. So I'm just going to jump into a couple of discord questions and we can just sort of go from there. How does that sound?
- [31:44]
B
Perfect.
- [31:44]
A
Phenomenal. So the first question was, did this need to be two parts? Short answer. Yeah. I think that what seeing how good this first part is proves that, hands down, did it need to be 2 hours and 40 minutes that's another question that I will get to actually later, because my short answer is no. It could have been 15 minutes shorter. But I have a reason for this. There's no scene or song that I would cut. It's if one of my major notes about the Wicked movie, if we're talking about like genuine notes, is that it shares a similar issue in my brain with the west side Story remake. It's less of a problem in Wicked than it is in west side Story. And I'll talk about later. And it's an easy thing to fix. Like, it's just a, It's a little sucking that just needs to be done. Joel. We know what that's like, a little like, though. But I, I.
- [32:39]
B
Okay, but you say Harry Potter, beautiful film series changes a great deal from the books. Right. And now HBO is making it into a series so that we can really flesh out all of those moments. And because it kind of should have been done like a Game of Thrones style miniseries from the get. But fleshing out those moments. I remember when those movies were coming out saying, make it six hours long. I want to sit in that world for six hours. Yes. And so Wicked did it like, Wicked was like, okay, you want to sit in the world for six hours? Okay, we'll sit in the world for six hours. I'll give you three here and we'll give you three here and a year later. So, like. Yes. Could it be tightened? Sure.
- [33:22]
A
But I don't, I don't say Titan like it could, the whole thing could be one movie. I'm saying. No, I'm, I'm, I'm. I think part one has proven that it needs to be two parts.
- [33:31]
B
Yes. But also you're saying, like sucking a little bit of the air out of those moments could have taken 15 minutes out. And I totally agree. And see those places that it could happen. Being the child that was listening to the Wicked soundtrack on repeat while I was pretending to do construction work at a house was like feeling all of those beats and all of those different moments and all of the different times of listening to the score, seeing all of those play out on screen in a really beautiful way of watching the actor go through that journey where on the stage show that is a bullet train and it goes. When it starts, it goes. And if you miss that beat, you're done. You just gotta keep it moving. So having time to sit in those moments, as a fan of the work. Yes. I, I didn't mind it. But I think your point.
- [34:24]
A
Yeah, I think it's the dichotomy of what it's making us feel versus, you know, objectively, where it could be streamlined a little bit to maybe reach across the aisle to people who are not fans of the stage show. I agree. I think by. By expanding the time of it and letting us live in those moments, it does improve moments of the stage show. Because somebody then asked, like, changes from the stage show enhancements. There are no changes from the stage show. It's only additions. Like, it's just taking everything we already had and delving a little deeper, adding a little more backstory, adding. I think the only real change they did was in the stage show. Elphaba is enrolled at Shiz to care for Nessa. And in the movie, like, she's not afterthought.
- [35:08]
B
Yeah, but I think in the stage show, like, they don't. They don't. He doesn't sign her up for housing. And that's why the thing, like. But she was always gonna go, yeah.
- [35:17]
A
The dad is still a douche. He's like, he totally forgot to.
- [35:20]
B
Yeah.
- [35:22]
A
Oh, no. I think what it was was they just expected that Elphaba was gonna live with Nessa. That, like, that's what their family thought. Yes, but she was like, no, Nessa's gonna stay with Madame Marble and Alpha. Mean, you can go somewhere else.
- [35:36]
B
But, like, also in the movie, that was the only piece about the movie that I was like, so the dad's like, go, go, go look after her. At least see her to her room. And I'm like, did you not play that out in your head beforehand? Like, did you not think about what this moment's gonna be? You know? So, like, in the stage version, I think it makes a little more sense where they were in the movie. They were trying to make a point a little harder.
- [35:56]
A
It's also. It's just a matter of economy by having her just be enrolled to be there with Nessa. I think they tried to make that change to sort of just show that the father only just sort of leads by irrational emotion. And, like, they probably did talk about on the trip over touches, like, Nessa's going to have a room here. And, like, this is what we're going to do. She's okay. She's. She's a grown girl. It's all going to be fine. And, like, the moment happens and the dad flips and he changes his mind irrationally. I think that's what they were trying to do. And I made sense in a way, but I was like, we also kind of shaved on 45 seconds of this scene and gotten to wizard and I a little sooner if she just was already enrolled. But that's the things that. I mean, where it's like most of the scenes, you could. You could suck out somewhere between 10 to 40 seconds. Some of it is like dialogue we don't necessarily need. Some of it is just a pause that stays a little too long, lingers a little too long. And by doing that with every scene, you immediately shave off 10 minutes. And it allows moments like the Oz Dust Ballroom between Glinda and Elphaba to really land when we have a little more not speed, but momentum and then sit in that dance. Agreed.
- [37:04]
B
But the addition of the welcome to the room scene in between wizard and I. And what is this feeling?
- [37:10]
A
Thrilled.
- [37:11]
B
Brilliant. Like, needs to be there.
- [37:13]
A
Put it.
- [37:13]
B
Put it into the stage show.
- [37:15]
A
Oh, I love.
- [37:15]
B
I love the fact that the first time that we see their dorm room is popular after Dan, we get all the way through dancing through life until we see that giant rack of shoes come in on the stage show. That's a. There's a lot of character building that in that first scene that I was loved.
- [37:32]
A
Loved. Yeah. The thing that I realized, seeing the show again 20 years later was how much the score really does do heavy lifting in Wicked, the stage show. Because time is of the essence in a stage musical. You, you know, even. And the show is long, it's still like 2 hours and 40 minutes. And still, like, we have to kind of rush to get to Elphaba and Glinda becoming friends. And we don't get a lot of their rivalry. We just are sort of told about it in what is this feeling? And like a little jab after that. They're becoming friends very quickly. Yeah.
- [38:04]
B
Originally the story. It's an animal rights story. Like, that's what the story is about is this character come in the musical made it more about the friendship.
- [38:14]
A
Yeah. Because that's where the heart. Yeah, the heart. They realized that the heart was in the friendship. And there was so much they still had to cover. The romance of Fiero, the. The animal rights stuff. And they're like, well, we can't flesh this out as much as we want. We just, like, we have 10 polls now. We have. What is this feeling? End of dancing through life and then popular. And then like one. The very end of one short day. So it all just sort of feels like when you watch the show, you feel like we're being told that these pivotal moments have happened with them, but we haven't. They haven't felt earned. They feel more earned in the movie. To me, that said, there are things that don't make it because one of the questions on the Discord Channel was, any favorite lines of yours that got cut, Joel? Oh.
- [39:01]
B
No, I. Nothing comes to mind on that.
- [39:04]
A
I. The.
- [39:04]
B
A delivery of a line changed, which I actually really appreciated.
- [39:08]
A
Yeah. Well, I'm assuming it's either Ari or Cynthia's line delivery. Yes. Yes. Don't worry. We're. Then, after the next commercial break, we are dedicating the next section solely to their performances because, my God, do I need to talk about it. The.
- [39:23]
B
There's lots to say.
- [39:25]
A
I have so much to say.
- [39:27]
B
But.
- [39:31]
A
One has. One has heard it said that people come into our lives for a reason. But the line that I missed because, like, there are a lot. There are a couple of jokes that got cut. Like, in, no one warns the wicked innuendo out. You endo things like, yeah, yeah, but I miss.
- [39:47]
B
Too soon for that, though.
- [39:48]
A
You need it. You. It would. It would.
- [39:50]
B
It wouldn't have landed.
- [39:51]
A
No, they. They didn't go for humor at the beginning.
- [39:54]
B
Yeah.
- [39:55]
A
With Glinda. I appreciate it. I appreciated that because they were about.
- [39:58]
B
To burn an effigy.
- [39:59]
A
I know. Oh, we can. This all goes into the discussion of Ariana's performance, but I also want to say I knew we were going to be in good hands when the movie began. And they just had shots of the floor of the castle, and you heard the voiceover lines that are in the show, but they happen midway through the Song of the how dead is she? And then going right into, yes, the Wicked Witch of the west is dead. I was like, oh, they're doing this. Well, it was, like, good for them. But the line that I missed.
- [40:32]
B
You don't have the cast crawling out of a. Of a giant wicked hat.
- [40:36]
A
I know. Oh, I meant rip that hat.
- [40:38]
B
Rip the hat.
- [40:40]
A
The line that I miss is in one short day, when they are in the middle of the song, they're talking, and Elphaba's like, I want to remember this moment. No one's staring, blah. And Linda says to her, you look positively emerald. I love that line. It's such a sweet line. But, like, I'm not. Am I mad? It's cut. No, there's plenty of other wonderful things. But, like, part of me goes, I really would have loved to have seen Ariana say that. I feel like she would have landed that really beautifully. You look positively emerald.
- [41:11]
B
But they already gave that to her at the end of Popular. She Landed that in the Dancing Through Life when she comes out and she sheds a tear and she comes goes.
- [41:21]
A
It's okay.
- [41:21]
B
You're good.
- [41:22]
A
Yeah. Another. The bond is there. You see it? Absolutely. I'm just like. I don't know. That was a question. Was any. Any favorite lines? Cut. Next question. Okay. Okay. So this is one of the controversial things we hinted at this. The film coloring and the lens flare. So Jolie, do you know that this is something that's kind of controversial on film Internet right now?
- [41:41]
B
That the color is not as vibrant as it.
- [41:43]
A
As people were expecting, but also the lens flare. You know what, the lens flare. Yes, yes. Okay. So for those of you who don't know what lens flare is, I'm going to do a terrible job of explaining this, but it's basically like light exposure on film. You see it a lot, actually in the west side Story remake. Sometimes it's the sun, sometimes it's a very bright stage light where it's like the camera hits it directly and it sort of washes out the screen a little bit. It's very intentional. Directors do it for on purpose now because a lot of lens flare can actually be added in post. And I believe a lot of the lens flare was added in post for this. And it all ties into, according to John M. Chu, the director, was that he didn't want it to be too fantastical of a look. He wanted it to feel lived in and real, which I totally get. And as I said, when I saw it in digital, the colors actually were a little more poppy because when. Because when we first saw it, I was like, I get they want it to be lived in. Like, they could have dialed it up 10%. It doesn't have to be like OG wizard of Oz, Technicolor, but just a little bit. And then in digital, it actually was that little bit. And so I was happy. The lens flare, though, I do get, because there are shots in Dancing Through Life because that library is in the open air that sometimes you don't really see Fiyero because he's directly in front of the sun. And that shot of him and Ariana with their duet, like, they also are a little washed out from time to time. So I get that.
- [43:06]
B
Is the lens flare an added thing? This is a question for that transition between. Between the pieces that are real and cgi, is that like one of the tricks that they would use for that?
- [43:17]
A
I'm not sure. I think that's a trick they could use if maybe there was a piece of CGI that Wasn't as great as they would like it to be. And they're like, well let's wash them out with some sunlight. But I don't know because I feel like a lot of the CGI is pretty prominent.
- [43:32]
B
Well, yeah, because most of the set is practical. Like it's, it's.
- [43:36]
A
Why not know. And all the, all the enhanced stuff with the sets, like it blends in so well. Like it's practical sets with trick photography. Like people talk about like with Barbie, they're. When they, when they say like there's no cgi, what they mean is like nothing was created from a computer. But they. Barbie land. What they would do is they would film like toy models and then use that footage and put it in post where there was like a blue scrim on set. So it's not built from a computer. It is practical that way. And a lot of that I believe is the same with Wicked. Like the tulips that we see. They talk about the nine million tulips. Nine million tulips is not a large ass field in London. Like that's not enough to cover that much. It's enough to cover like a third of it. So they shot a third of that and then doubled that in post, which is.
- [44:25]
B
Yeah, that's not to fill it in because getting them all to bloom at the same time is not a thing.
- [44:30]
A
Yeah, it's. I'm like, I'm sorry, John, I'm chu. You're not God. But you know what I mean. So when people talk about, oh they, they say there's no cgi. But that. What about that? I'm like CGI means built from the ground up with a computer. So that would be like the monkeys Dr. Dillamond in terms of the scenery. That's all practical. And then post production trick photography to make it room larger. Yeah, yeah. But so I think that the lens flare. I don't know, I think the lens flare was mostly just to be like, see, this is Oz is just a real dimension somewhere. Like it's not CGI fantasy land. So I get why. I think that's similar to the air that I object to. I think if the lens flare, if there was half the amount of lens flare, people wouldn't have. Some film people would have a problem with it. And this is really like a film buff critique. This isn't like things that theater people are critiquing about.
- [45:27]
B
Well also that last shot of the wizard and I when she's standing on the edge of that cliff. Yeah, that was desert. Was it clouds. Desert clouds. Because Oz is technically surrounded by desert.
- [45:41]
A
Yeah, apparently it is desert, but it kind of looked like clouds.
- [45:46]
B
No, with the addition of the rainbow, like in the standard edition version that I saw the first time.
- [45:50]
A
Yeah.
- [45:50]
B
And the second time in imax, I was like, oh, no, that, that might be desert there.
- [45:55]
A
Yeah, no, I think it's. Yeah, it's definitely desert, but I know what you mean.
- [45:58]
B
It puts Oz on this, like, elevated place that you can travel to from over, quote, unquote. The rainbow.
- [46:04]
A
Yeah.
- [46:05]
B
Adding more lens flare, you're closer to the sun. I, I agree.
- [46:08]
A
Yeah. Because, I mean, and when I, when I, when I. Because when I first saw it as she was running towards the end, I was like, oh, she's gonna jump into the ocean. And then I realized, like, no, that's a full blown desert because it's gray. It's like it's.
- [46:18]
B
That's a sand dune.
- [46:19]
A
Yeah, exactly. Because, like, it will. Because it's like bluish, cloudy grayishness. Which is why at first he thought it was clouds, I thought it was C. And I think that's. That ending of that number is actually a case where I was like, that. This is where I would love it for the coloring to have been bumped up just a little bit because it's such a dynamic ending and she's surrounded by muted yellow and gray. And I was like, like, can we make the corn or the wheat or whatever it is like, pop just a touch more. Jon, like, because you're filming this so incredibly. She sounds amazing. Like, everything's good. It doesn't even look ugly. It just looks like a little washed out. But I think that that's sort of the long game they're playing. Is that because, like, once they get to the Emerald City, that's like that green is green. Right.
- [47:05]
B
Well, you also have to build to that. Right. So, like, everybody going into this film is going to try and tell the story from their specific department. Al, you know, like, costume is going to tell the whole story strictly through costumes. And so the idea of building to the moment where you finally get to the wizard and having that be the most popping emerald color, making this a little bit more washed out in the I Want song. I could see that being a choice of having it, having. Giving you someplace to start. That gives you a place to build too.
- [47:34]
A
Yeah. And I think that it's totally valid to do all that. I. I think that, that you're never going to please everybody. And sometimes you're playing a long game and not everyone's Going to recognize that with something like the wizard and I again, it's sort of. It's one of those things where I go, I see what you're doing, and it's your taste, it's your choice. You do what you want to do. But if you want my take, I'm like, can we up the coloring just 10, just a little like a Scotia.
- [48:02]
B
Yeah, I agree.
- [48:04]
A
Yes. So, but like, yeah, but are we sitting here being like, you know, death to James Corden in your movie? No. Are we. Yeah. Are we sitting here going, you cut what song? Death to all of them.
- [48:19]
B
How dare you. No, you're not that girl.
- [48:24]
A
Am I, though?
- [48:26]
B
I cut it.
- [48:28]
A
I. I had someone message me because I. When I. When I said on Instagram, teasing that we were going to do this episode, I'm like, here are the top 10, like, without a doubt, ironclad movie adaptations of stage musicals, not including Wicked, because I'm not spoiling that. And then people started entering ones that. They were like, but what about this? What about this? And some of them, I'm like, I see where you. How you got there. Like Fiddler on the Roof. That is a very good movie, but it's like, also a slog. Other ones, I was like, you're trolling me. They're like, what about the 82 Annie? I'm like, like, girl, when was the last time you watched her? I said, that's Broadway. 1982 Annie is Broadway Kid Maga. Because it's like. But I. My, My. My nostalgia for it. I'm like, when was the last time you watched it?
- [49:15]
B
Not the Broadway Maga knock amount.
- [49:20]
A
This one will not come out that tomorrow. But then someone also. Oh, someone also was like, what about hello, Dolly? I was like, girl, have you watched that movie Barbara Sings the House Down? But it's. And then. Well, this is where I am that girl about cutting. Because someone wrote in Dream Girls. And I responded on my Instagram, I was like, dream Girls is vocals, A plus, acting, C plus. And like, also very. It's a bumpier ride than people remember. But someone wrote in my DMs, they went, that's not fair. Not when Anika Nani Rose is doing one of the, like, one of her best screen performances. I was like, how can she. They cut her song. Song. Yeah, they cut. They made her audition with Ain't no Party, and then they had the audacity to cut it.
- [49:57]
B
Get it? Yeah.
- [50:00]
A
It was dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.
- [50:02]
B
Well, and also the Annie thing, that's nostalgia.
- [50:04]
A
It's Absolutely.
- [50:05]
B
At the beginning. Like, is this based off of movie merit, or is it based off nostalgia's time of life when you saw it?
- [50:12]
A
Yeah, that's why. It's why we come back to them over the years and see, like, what's actually there. It can still bring you joy. I'm not going to take that away from. From anybody. But, like, the day someone comes into my classroom and does a PowerPoint presentation of why the 1982 Annie is good, actually, I'm gonna be like, okay, did you feel heard? Because you're done now. Do you feel good? You feel better? You feel better? You let it all out. Let it all out, baby. All right, next question. Oh, okay. Did either one of us have an issue with the riffing on I'm not that Girl and overall, the riffing in the movie and how much riffing is too riffing? Too much riffing. I love this question because this actually brings us to the stage show as well.
- [50:58]
B
It's a great question. The great.
- [51:00]
A
The.
- [51:00]
B
The stage show has a lot of limitations. So, like, there is a book of riffs that you are allowed to do as an Elphaba. Like, you're allowed to do this one, this one, this one. But, like, kind of creating your own is not. Not necessarily an allowed thing. I loved it. I loved it. I mean, Idina Menzel did her own. Ah, that's her. Like, they were like. And so Cynthia came in and she said, ah, she auditioned with that. And Stephen Schwartz said to her, and, like, what's your battle cry? And so having her come up with that, I think is important, especially making that character yours. They also approached Ariana Grande saying, let's make Populac a little bit more like, like, pop. And, like, put a little beat underneath it. And she was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Ariana Grande is a bigger fan of Wicked than I am. Like, she. In all of these interviews, she is the one that wanted to respect the original source material the most. Well, I don't know the most. I wasn't there. But based off of the.
- [52:04]
A
I mean, just. Just say to her, hey, Ariana, you know that you're in Wicked, right? And she'll start crying, like, how much she cares.
- [52:11]
B
She cares a lot. And she would say. She said in an interview that she was like. I would say to John Chu, like, you can't change that. That's Bible. You're not allowed to change that. That's Bible. And they wanted her to do a more poppy Glinda. And she was like, no, I'm not here to be like Ariana Grande as Glinda. She's like, I want to play Glinda and do the source material justice. She stopped her tour to come back to New York just to get into vocal lessons and get her acting up so that she could sing in a proper way. That a Galinda should be singing that score.
- [52:43]
A
Yes. I think that Ariana has very, very, very few riffs in the movie. The only two I can count on her end that, like, would count as a quote unquote riff would be in popular when she goes exactly what they need. And then she also does instead of dreary who you were. But, like, I don't consider that overly riffy. Like, it fits in the scale. It sounds good on her voice. And there's like also a little minor riff at the end of what is this feeling when they combine at the end of the loathing you. But, like, that's not. I don't think that's too much riff, as you had mentioned as well. Joel and I mentioned this on the Discord Channel to people when we talk about riffing and the score and all that. Like, just, first of all, understand that a lot of the Alphabet songs as we know them are not actually how they are written. If you look at this sheet music for no Good Deed and Wizard and I and Defying Gravity, there are things that Adina added little flourishes that she added that are not in the score. First of all, famously, it is in the score now, but famously, Defying gravity, the final 90 seconds did not start how it started with a. So if you care to find me. It used to be exactly how it was originally written, which was so. So if you care to find me look to the western sky and then, like would go up the octave. And so she went up to Schwartz. She was like, can we go. Can we go up the octave on this? Like, I feel like I need to be singing over the orchestra and things like. And I'll stand vocal damage. We're feeling vocal damage. Like, and. But, like, things like. And I'll stand there with a wizard feeling things I've never felt. That's not how it's written. That's something Adina did. But now everyone does it.
- [54:23]
B
They do things I never felt.
- [54:25]
A
Yeah, they also do that. Things like that. So riffing in general, it's not such that I'm a fan or not a fan. I think that there's a taste level you need to have and that a music director needs to also be there for to be like, now you're just indulging like you've abandoned the. The path and you're just sort of wandering through the woods.
- [54:47]
B
Well, is it justified? Like, is the choice justified?
- [54:51]
A
Yes.
- [54:51]
B
Eden Espinosa did the Fiero. Like, audiences went nuts over that because it was justified. He's dying. Get your man back.
- [55:03]
A
It felt like a cry.
- [55:04]
B
It really is.
- [55:05]
A
It made sense. And you can do it other ways. But that, like, I think that was not just. As you said, it wasn't just about where her voice went. It was how it fit in the moment to bring it back to Wicked. Cynthia, I think, is getting a little unfairly maligned with. About the riffing, because she doesn't riff that much throughout the movie. Her wizard and I is pretty by the book. Her Defying Gravity is. Is mostly by the book. What her biggest, like, riffs, I'd say are in, like the second half of Defying Gravity, and they're not even that much. And her. So the thing with I'm not that Girl, I remember when I first saw it, my initial instinct was, oh, like she's kind of indulging a bit. Each time I've listened to it, she riffs less than I remember. What she does that. She sings the first verse exactly as written, and then the second verse, she has one riff. And then the third and fourth verses is when there are more riffs. It's not a lot, it's just more than we're accustomed to. But it's naturally where she feels it. Because I'm. I'm assuming that she was sort of channeling a world of R B with it where there is more of a soulful groundedness to it because the rifts are not going all over her coloratura. They are remaining within frame.
- [56:23]
B
I think that's an important distinction on this question, is that there's a difference between it being an option and a riff.
- [56:30]
A
Yes.
- [56:31]
B
I feel like some of the options are being deemed as riffs, whereas riffing is. It can be one of two things. It could be justified. It can also be like, I can't sustain that note, so I'm going to riff off of it. In the early 2000s, that was a really big thing with riffing. But the options up is more character driven. And I feel like most of the changes to this score fall into that category. Like that I'm not that girl having that be a close up shot. It's not Elphaba standing on stage in. I think she's in white in that moment. And she has that white jacket on and she's talking to another, she's putting herself across the stage, and it's much grander. So having those little intricate little riffs there as you're having a private moment with yourself, it didn't take me out of it at all.
- [57:16]
A
All it was, I think it only took me out of it the first time because it's just what I wasn't used to. And sometimes things can take you by a pleasant surprise. And sometimes things are more like, oh, that we turned left when I, I usually go right. It's, it's, it's like. I mean, you know what it's like now that you're a boring married woman, but like, when you have sex with your boring married person and all of a sudden, like, they tried to do something new in bed and like, excuse you, you used to go, 1, 2, 3, and stop, stop for nine months. And now you're going, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and stop. Like, it's just. It's not that it's bad. It's just like, yeah, yeah, I'm sorry you added a kickball change when it's usually a pot of beret. And I'm not mad. I'm not mad. It fits. It always fits. But, you know, that's Han Joel's business card. Perfect.
- [58:04]
B
Now I can send this, let's say your full married name, get rid of Sparks.
- [58:08]
A
And underneath, it always fits.
- [58:14]
B
A high tenor. That's not true.
- [58:18]
A
You're a tenor who gets high. There's a difference. But no, I understand what people mean by two and triffing. There is absolutely a point where it can feel indulgent. And I think that. What I appreciate is I don't think that Cynthia went overboard. I think. Think, listen to I'm not that Girl again with the intention of. With the mind frame of, oh, she overriffs it. You'll be surprised. That's not the case. There are riffs in there that you might not find to be supported character wise, but it is not a full blown Melisma marathon.
- [58:54]
B
And this they didn't. So making the movie version of this, you're going to have the audience that's like, well, what's going to be your version of this? What's going to be your verse? You know what I mean? And we lose so much of the story in all of that. So I don't feel like they played into the. This is going to be the Cynthia riff of this particular line. And I'm not that girl. It was just where cinematically and character driven. That line needed to go.
- [59:22]
A
Absolutely. I mean, listen, there's, as you said, there are compilation videos out there of every Elphaba's Divine Gravity or every Alphaba's battleground. Like all of them.
- [59:32]
B
And I've seen every single one of them.
- [59:34]
A
I mean, there's one that my friend, there's one that Sarah Devini and I love. It's Patrice Tapoki, who's like the first standby of New Zealand or something like that, because she goes up to an even higher note. I think she goes up to an A. At the end of Fine Gravity. She goes, tell them how I am defying gravity. I'm flying high defying gravity.
- [59:54]
B
Absolutely not. There's no way. It's.
- [59:57]
A
It's hot. It's really hot. But also, like, it's one of the things where the rest of Patrice Tipoki's Defying Gravity is so by the numbers that when she does that, it's just like, Jesus Christ, kickball change.
- [60:10]
B
Instead of pas de bourre, she adds in the best of the best. And she is so solid. I think she's the longest running Elphaba. Like, she goes into all of the different touring companies. Emma, Stan. Hi, Laurel. And she has taken all of the best of's and places them in a perfect plays on every single show that she does. 10 out of 10.
- [60:30]
A
10 out of 10. Yeah. I. I mean, I don't know. I'm. I re. Listened to the soundtrack this morning in preparation for this, and I was listening to To Find Gravity. I was like, there's no section of this that feels off. Like, I think the only thing where Cynthia, like, maybe finds a different alternative is in the middle. But like, Even her final 90 seconds, she gets to certain notes maybe sooner than Adina did or Stephanie did, but she, like, it's all the same notes like her. So if you care to find me, look to the western sky. She just uses the me to get herself up to the look rather than. So if you care to find me, look to the western sky. She goes, so if you care to find me, look to the western sky. I'm like, yeah, fine. It's all there. It's all there.
- [61:14]
B
I love the. The new It's Me. It's me adding that into the movie Love.
- [61:20]
A
Okay, so that was a question people had, was Defying Gravity, the chopping up of it all.
- [61:28]
B
You have to.
- [61:29]
A
Well, Jolie, tell us why.
- [61:32]
B
Because it is. It builds. It builds on itself. And so you have to expand all of those moments because we're Doing it in that close up shot. So in the show, it is in that widescreen. So again, the bullet train is going towards the end of the station and we have to get Elphaba back in the chair so that she can get re greened for the second act. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, that is a drive, drive, drive, drive, drive, drive, drive, drive, drive.
- [61:59]
A
Plot wise, yes.
- [62:01]
B
This movie, allowing it to be a close up of Elphaba deciding. I've literally been on my own this entire time. I finally have a best friend. Hey, will you come with me on this journey? Because I have a friend that I actually trust. In the movie, there's a really fun flip where Popular is where Elphaba starts playing by Glinda's actually. It's actually right. It's in Dancing Through Life where she makes this. I'm gonna start playing by Elphaba's Glinda's rules. Meaning when Elphaba comes into the Asda's ballroom in the movie, it is the first time her costume has like any sort of like 3D element of frill on it. Very plain. Until that moment. And so adding that little Glinda touch of like, okay, let me start playing by Glinda's rules. I'll wear the hat that she got me. Okay, we'll do all that. And by the time we get the Defying Gravity, Elphaba takes the reins again and she's like, hey, this is how we're going to do this thing. You in or you not? Yeah. And having that beat to beat moment in the movie is very important. So the Defying Gravity is able to build, but the choices that you're. That each one of these characters is making is very, very intentional. Where in the show it drives so fast that you can argue a lot of things. Like Glinda at that point saying, what do you. She said Elphaba, instead of flying off the handle. What's the first line of that? Oh, my God. For once, instead of flying off the handle. My, my. In my. The meaning I got from that from day one has always been like, hey, girl, there's a system in place, okay? Like, let's not try to break down the whole system before you understand the system. So, like, let's work with the system a little bit and see if we can get to this end goal in this Defying Gravity. It is a. A lot less of that. You know, it is like Madame Morrible coming out declaring her wicked. And then Glinda embracing Madame Morrible like 5 seconds after that happens makes Glinda Choice a lot stronger and not a lot of room to interpret what's happening there.
- [64:19]
A
Yes, we will talk about the Glinda Elphaba performances. I swear it'll be after this next break. But so I think again, the breaking up of Defying Gravity, the second time I saw it, I was very on board with it. It again, my only thing was, like, if I could go on with John M. Shu into the editing room and just, like, shave five seconds off of here and three seconds off of here. Because every beat that we're hitting, I love. Just some moments I was like, I'm okay with sitting in on this moment with her and, like, seeing her younger self before the final It's Me. If you would shave off six seconds from the previous break. But that's just my own brain chemistry of, like, you made me sit for 30 seconds in this one. I can't. I don't want to sit another 30 seconds on this one. One. Especially since, like, we all are here waiting for the It's Me. So if you made me wait 18 seconds for the last one, I will wait the 30 seconds this time for the It's Me. But that, again, that's just. That that is me. I think it's me. It. The It's Me on stage is so exciting, right? The whole song is just building to that moment. And it is like, it is magic. It's. It's. It's science. It's magic and science all at once because it is so meticulously put together, that finale. And yet the effect feels just so spontaneous and, like, indescribable. And the movie, it still gives you that effect. But whereas the It's Me is like a pushback of, like, full on, almost like blind fear, right? Like, I. I always. What I loved about the way Adina did the ending of Defying Gravity is like her Alphabet was starting to come into her power. But she still was a little girl and was kind of like, like two steps forward, one step back. That's what made her. Nobody in all of Oz was so, like, powerful to me. She didn't do it. Like a big, dramatic actress. I've seen so many alphabets on YouTube, including the one I saw when it come back, like, acting like Mother Karaage going, like. And nobody in old and like, Adina was always kind of like on the verge of tears. And you can make a joke about vocal health. I'm not going to go there. It felt to me like she was like her alpha was like through hell or high water was going to become a woman, and she just had to will it because it was sort of like, still teenage girly in that moment. Cynthia's it's me is truly an. It's me of confidence and comes from the. Of the. Recognizing how far she's come from, like the little girl that had to be shut up and ostracized. And she's like, no, I. I have powers that no one else has. It's me. And very powerful.
- [66:44]
B
Very, very true. And. And I think that breath is a very important part of this discussion.
- [66:49]
A
Yeah, you.
- [66:50]
B
Idina's breath is. Goes no lower than her clavicle. You know, like, that breath is so high. So high. Which is also why it can't be in tune ever.
- [67:02]
A
But so you say, well, I'm sorry.
- [67:05]
B
Let'S look at that Tony performance. That breath was so high. High. It was so high. Yeah. You have to breathe lower just physically, vocally. But Cynthia's breath being more grounded and lower allowed that to be the power coming from within. I do agree that that shift of it's the wizards who should be afraid of me happened very fast in the movie where it's like, in the show, it's like, I know that the wizard should be afraid of me. So I'm going to say that out loud and it's going to take me a couple bars to really dive in on that, because I'm scared shitless right now.
- [67:39]
A
Yeah, I think. But that also is sort of where both. Because Cynthia and Adina. I'll talk about those performances in a second, because I swear to God, I have so many opinions about it all positive, I swear. But, yeah, Cynthia is so much more in control at the top of that number, whereas Idina was very scared at the top, and as you said, like, said it out loud to will it into existence, even though her heart hadn't caught up with her mouth yet. Yet. And you weren't quite sure how she was gonna get out of there, whereas Cynthia, it was. She took a moment sort of outside of her body and collected herself and then continued. But I also think there's a lot that comes with that, with the baggage of the lives these women have led in this world of, you know, Adina being a white woman and Cynthia being a woman of color.
- [68:29]
B
Very important piece of the puzzle.
- [68:31]
A
Yes. Which will lead us, by the way, to.
- [68:34]
B
Wait, no, there's one thing I want you to say about that. Yes, I have exactly what you're saying, which is it changes the role of Glinda. In that scene where in the stage version with her having that moment of, oh, God, oh, God, oh, God, oh, God, what's happening? Glinda's able to truly ground her in the bridge right before we send her off on her way to know. Is this the decision we're making here?
- [68:57]
A
Yeah.
- [68:58]
B
Ariana had a much harder battle as a scene partner with Cynthia to try and ground somebody that's already grounded. So then it was more of, like, a fight of will and intention there.
- [69:10]
A
Yeah.
- [69:10]
B
Whereas the stage version, it does make it a little clearer of where Glinda's role in that scene lies and also.
- [69:17]
A
Just where Glinda is emotionally in that part of the story. Because there's sort of this false hope with all the progress she's made as a human that she'll make the leap to and you realize, oh, no, like, she's made progress, but she's not. Yeah. There's a reason why Ariana is going to be pitched for the lead actress for part two and not for part one. And that's because we. We have just finished step one of Glinda's emotional arc. Like, we are halfway through Elphabas. Glinda has a whole bunch of to go through in Act 2 to get where Elphaba is, is.
- [69:55]
B
I want to see her. Thank goodness she's talked about it. I want to see it. She gets it. Nobody gets thank goodness like she does.
- [70:01]
A
It's going to be so, so good.
- [70:03]
B
I'm also has been out there for how long? Like, she has lived that so many times. I cannot wait to see what she does with it.
- [70:11]
A
Girl, girl. Cannot wait. We're going to get to the performances of Ariana and Cynthia in just a second. But first, Jolie, we got to take. Take another break. A break? Really? I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet. And we're back. So we back. We back two things. Before we get into the performances of Ariana and Cynthia, somebody asked about our thoughts on Michelle Yeoh's performance as Madame Morrible. I'm into it. It's not my favorite Morrible. I like the drollness that she has. It makes the sort of slow burn of her heel turn, maybe less shocking, but it feels more natural. Like, you're like. But of course, like, this is who she is. And I did find there was a warmth between her and Cynthia. In the first half, which was very nice. I wished that we could have gotten a little bit more of a biting camp from her. There are certain moments that I miss the, like, cheekiness of it. But she ultimately was going for, like, very dry, strict sensei, which is fine.
- [71:25]
B
Totally fine. Again, like, a film medium would translate in the same way.
- [71:30]
A
I don't think it would.
- [71:31]
B
Like, it was. It was a real human.
- [71:33]
A
I think it's the difference between, like, if Olivia Colman played it, you know, like, Olivia Colman would find a way to make that campgrounded, like, godmother in fleabag. You know what I mean?
- [71:42]
B
Yeah. I agree with that. It's a tricky part because you're trying to have it be a reveal. And her name's moral.
- [71:47]
A
Terrible. Exactly. Rhymes with Right.
- [71:51]
B
That's an uphill battle.
- [71:53]
A
Yeah. And also in this. In the stage show, she comes out looking like the oldest drag queen in all the land who's, like, incredible. She was like, not only was I there when the first brick was thrown at Stonewall, I built that brick 100 years earlier. And I was pissed because I made a perfect.
- [72:07]
B
I took it from the pyramid and brought it to Stonewall to break that window.
- [72:11]
A
Yes. And I. Because I built that pyramid up for my 16th birthday. Thank you very much. It was. It's very that. But yes. The other question somebody had was about the cameos of Adina and Kristen in one short day, how we felt about it. I liked it. Listen. Was it fan service? Absolutely. Did I guffaw in gay Glee when Adina did her battle cry? Absolutely. My only note once again is like, I think the whole grimory section of one short day could have been 80 seconds shorter. I agree.
- [72:38]
B
That was total fan service. It was. And it was just as making fyro bisexual was totally pandering to the gays, but also, I love representation, so I didn't mind that at all. But the grimory sequence, it could have been shaved down. I liked honoring the two of them. I definitely enjoyed seeing Kristen do it a little bit harder. But I think Adina in an Adina Kristen battle, having Adina try to be, like, a big. The same star thing that that Kristen did. That dynamic worked so well because Kristen was Kristen and it was, like, on the side. So I thought that that moment shined the best when Ariana Grande opened her mouth to sing and Kristen just, like, slapped it against her face. I guffawed. I guffawed in the theater.
- [73:27]
A
I guffed if I were being a harsher critic and being like, okay, you gotta Kill some darlings. I'd be like, yeah. What I would do is, is I would just have them be the soloists on the. Who's the mage? Who's major? I like, just go right into that.
- [73:42]
B
I mean, we had the Winnie Holtzman and Stephen Schwartz cameos in that sequence too. And, like, that was enough. Like that. That's all. That's all we really needed there.
- [73:51]
A
Stephen Schwartz playing your track in the show. Like, that's. That's rejection. Wicked. Off. The wizard will see you now the.
- [73:59]
B
Wizard will see you now Now.
- [74:00]
A
It really is a shame that I'm a boy because I would be a phenomenal Nessarose. And I hate that I'll never get the chance to show the world my Nessa.
- [74:07]
B
It's. It's. It's tough. It is. It is tough.
- [74:11]
A
So, okay, let us now get into the performances of Ariana and Cynthia. I have. My overall feelings about the casting in this movie is that it is pretty strong across the board. There's no one in it who's bad. Michelle. Walter. Michelle thinkers is. Is good, if not as, like, over the top as we're used to and maybe not as impressionable for some new viewers. I think my weakest point, she was nervous.
- [74:36]
B
Like, I. I think that she was, like, feeling like a fish out of water. Like in that scenes where she was trying to sing with Cynthia Riva. Like, I could feel Cynthia almost like being like, girl, you got this. You're good. Sing, you're good. Just saying. Not. Not in the acting of any. Any means, but, like, the feeling of I need to tell. Singing.
- [74:54]
A
Yeah. If Ruma Clanahan can do this, so can you. Right. But I think if I. If I had to pick a weak. My weakest link in the cast at the moment, it would be the Nessa. And she's fine. Here's. And listen, I am thrilled with the representation. It's more that my Nessa is Michelle Federer, who is like, actress with a capital A and very much played the insecurity and the vanity of Nessa, which is important because we have to remember she becomes the Wicked Witch of the East. So, like, right now, I don't see any hints of that Nessa yet. I see, like, a very sweet girl.
- [75:36]
B
Correct. Like, that character has to drive and she. She was almost like the product of her circumstances.
- [75:41]
A
Right.
- [75:42]
B
Like, yes, that. That. That character becomes the actual evil one. You know, of the two of them.
- [75:49]
A
Yeah.
- [75:49]
B
Where that starts and how she functions and how she would lead a social group, like how she would enter that orientation and be and how that character would function. This interpretation is just kind of a product of what happens.
- [76:06]
A
Exactly. And also it gives you an idea of why she would glob onto box so immediately. Because she's so insecure and she's so self conscious that when someone gives her attention and like as well they should, she's a beautiful person. But like Bach giving her attention, she's also. Her opinion is, well, we belong together because he's the first one to ask me. And like height wise, it's great. Like we can see eye to eye because he's a munchkin and but like in the movie she shows up to shiz and like she's nervous but she's already like introducing herself to people. And like there's something about her. There's gotta be a pride in Nessa that ultimately is her undoing.
- [76:42]
B
Which brings us to a lot of in the stage version critique of not. Not developing the relationship with the sisters. And that's something that they wanted to push more in this movie of having a softer moment so that you're not. Because they were having a hard time in the stage version making Nessarose likable at the beginning. And I think that they kind of went too far on the movie on that particular element just because it makes the motivation softer.
- [77:10]
A
To which I say women don't have to be likable for you people. Okay? Okay. Let them be flawed. Let them be wonderful and bitchy. You know, I'm about to do an episode about the women. The play the women. And like I love my women when they're cunts. I'm just gonna say it.
- [77:23]
B
We like a powerful. Like that's the reason why Wicked did so well with the gays. Like powerful from every corner.
- [77:30]
A
It's why we're all obsessed with Morrible. Am I right? But so although I will say I like that it's worth having a sweet Nessa if only for baby Nessa. And the no one warns the Wicked.
- [77:40]
B
Going, yep, she was so cute that little girl. So cute. And also shout out to ethan slater that 10 out of 10.
- [77:47]
A
He did great again. I think they'll cast in general is great and like Bailey, I'm sure we'll talk about. But okay, Cynthia and. And Ariana, here's. Okay, I'm gonna this, I'm gonna start with this and we can talk about it more in detail. I have been saying for Yaz that what made Wicked pop off originally, not just like, like the catchiness, the songs and the spectacle, but like we talk about the core friendship of. Of Glinda and Elphaba. Right. And when you re watch the show, as is with, like, the 90th replacement that's being directed by, like, the fourth associate that's yelling at them through a megaphone, you lose a lot of the nuance. And Dina and Kristen did a lot of work on that relationship and on those characters to give us proper arcs. And over the years, as I've watched, you know, it gets sort of. Of trickle down and trickle down. Those characters now become something very different on stage than what originated and what I loved about what Ariana and Cynthia did while still doing their own thing with it. I felt they went back to the blueprint of Kristen and Adina, of, first of all, making them people, making them legitimate people. But also Cynthia's take, she talked about in an interview. And I watched it. I was like, that's. But that's also what Adina did. And I'm thrilled, which is like. Like so many alphabets come out at the top of the show, and they, like, start yelling and they're broody and they're morbid. And Adina was like a nerd. She was. She had a dry sense of humor. She would try to laugh off the pain, and she wasn't angry because it was her life. She didn't know anything else, so she had nothing to be angry about. And that's absolutely what Cynthia does. And you watch, like, when people react to her, she's never like, oh, my God, I'm so ugly. She's like, yeah, no, that happens. And it's. I mean, it's heartbreaking, but it makes her arc more powerful when she realizes, no, she can command attention. She is worthy of attention. She has something that people want, and she is powerful. And Glinda. So, Joel, you know Light in the Piazza? Yes, I've heard of it. You know Clara Johnson, you know what happened to her when she was post horse. Yes, exactly. Here's the thing. Most Glindas, and I don't want to name names, but there might be a Tony nominated.
- [80:00]
B
Their names drag them.
- [80:02]
A
I think, much as I love them, I think that the. That the problems began when Megan Hilty took over of people playing glinda in Act 1, like Clara Johnson, Post Pony Kick.
- [80:17]
B
Wait, with including Megan Hilty in that.
- [80:19]
A
Category, I think Megan is not the worst offender of it because she had a very specific take. What I'm saying is that when Megan went into the role, the intention of actresses playing the role changed from then on, and 19 years later, what Megan did cut water down into what a lot of actresses have done since, which is like, so, you know, I'm gonna roll around on the floor and check Elphaba's vagina during popular and, like, just do anything to break anyone.
- [80:46]
B
Plenty. Yeah. Slapstick.
- [80:48]
A
Slapstick, slapstick to the point that, like, they're not a person anymore. And then the turn in Act 2 when she becomes all serious, like, it's just a different person. I. And Kristen, Shana with, like, can be kooky. And I'm sure, like, as the run of Wicked went on, she got more bored and did more insane things. But she always comes from a place of truth with her comedy, and that's what Ariana did as well.
- [81:10]
B
Glinda is saying at the beginning that none of the original cast would be recast in if it were to originate again.
- [81:17]
A
Absolutely.
- [81:19]
B
I think that Kristen would be cast if she was younger. I do. I think that her. That role is so difficult to be the mean girl that you're rooting for.
- [81:32]
A
I think that's the thing that is hard to do because Glinda is a bitch for most of act one, but she's hilarious and she's. And she's insane. And so we get off on.
- [81:45]
B
And it was also opening before a lot of the politically correct 2008 started, you know, so the art of being steamed line in the movie, I was like, oh, that's a harsh line. But in 2003, we were goodbye.
- [81:58]
A
Yeah, we're like, well, that was way harsh type. But it's. But it's fun. And I think what Ariana does is, again, Glinda is a ridiculous person, but she takes herself so seriously and that is where the comedy comes from. From. So. And that's what Ariana does. And I was talking to a friend of mine who's been in Wicked multiple times and he's now seen the movie a few times, loves it. And he was like. What he said was he found Ariana's performance actually comedically very brave. Because there are certain lines that normally get a laugh on Broadway that didn't get a laugh in the movie. Not because she wasn't funny. She chose to go more earnest and then give you a new laugh later on.
- [82:33]
B
That's what I was saying.
- [82:34]
A
Like, it. It.
- [82:35]
B
Letting that poof. It's tomorrow. Leaving that alone leaves so much more air for what you are going to be doing with it. And that element of truth being added in there. I mean, there's the unspoken backstory of all the Glindas that She was going to be probably. What class did Glinda take as a little girl? Ballet. So, like, all that with that bad ballet form is what the stage version of having this, like, Jimbo the drag queen playing Shirley Temple, I think that's what that sequence turns into. Ariana Grande, she's foot pointed turned out. And the seriousness that she took herself, like, you know, I'm not a ballerina, but I have taken a dance class of five. And that technique looked beautiful. Like, she looked gorgeous doing that. But it was hilarious because of the truth she put behind taking herself so seriously in those moments.
- [83:29]
A
Yeah. I mean, and the thing about the law dancing and Popular you watch, it all starts with Cheno. Right? Like, so do you know the story about how they staged Popular originally on Broadway?
- [83:39]
B
Tell me.
- [83:40]
A
I will. So the story goes, first of all, it's Joe Mantello, who's, like, an actor's director and all. And it became increasingly clear by the time they got to San Francisco and went to Broadway, like, Winnie Holtzman and Stephen Schwartz weren't taking any more of his writing notes. Like, they made the changes they wanted. So basically all Joel really had was, like, the cast at that point.
- [84:01]
B
Yeah, there was a coup. There was a coup in the writing.
- [84:03]
A
Yeah. And so he was like, okay, fine, like, get us the pages. Like, I'm gonna work with the actors and, like, I'm gonna sell this. And so there's. He's doing, like, one big company number, and to save time, he's like. It's like, Kristen, you and Adina go into the next room, run popular a million times, and when I'm done with this number, like, in four hours, come back and show me what you got. They come back and Kristen shows them everything. And he's like, cool, you're gonna keep that. You're gonna cut that. You're gonna keep that. You're gonna cut that. And it, like, pieces it all together. You edit Kristin Chenoweth. You do not just let Chenoweth fly free. And. But so the. The dance thing she does, and it's. She. When you watch it, she does it for, like, two seconds, then abandons it. And it's because Chenoweth's Glinda is, like, playing whatever the Oz version of a movie montage in her head is of, like. Yeah, like, I don't know if Oz has movies, but she's like, oh, it's the. It's the. It's the dance makeover sequence. And so she's, like, so into it, and she's like, okay, well, this is the part where I would dance la. And she's like, well, I can't dance. Forget it. But then she just moves on. Like, you watch her do the la la. Forget it. And then just goes, we're gonna make you popular. And then. And I love that Ariana's is just like nothing but confidence the entire time, which makes it. It so sure. And. And again finds moments that are always there but make something new of it. Like when she does the glasses off of Ela and then puts them back on, she goes, never mind.
- [85:35]
B
I actually thought about you. That's what Matt would do.
- [85:38]
A
Absolutely. I'm just gonna put these back. Put these right back right here. I also would like to say go. And. And I swear I'm gonna let you talk more. But going into like Defying Gravity, that moment they have together because like we have that beautiful emotional moment with them at the Ozdust Ballroom where it is a genuine like watching somebody slowly crumble before your eyes. And you're the only one who can recognize it because everyone else is just like making fun of Alphabet. Glinda can see the pain that's there. And she's like, I could either hold onto my social stature or I could should be empathetic. And she does. And it ends up being a good thing. And you think to yourself, is it.
- [86:21]
B
About Glinda giving up her social stressor or using her status?
- [86:26]
A
I think she's ultimately what the good thing she does is using her status to elevate Elfie. It's the. It's the clueless line of D. Don't you want to use your popularity for good? And D saying, no, but it's because, like, you can either self protect or you can actually help. And it's foreshadowing Glinda's final lines at the very, very, very end of the show. But when she gives that helping hand to Elphaba and that sort of immediately bonds them and you see their friendship just sort of grow from there and they balance each other out. Like, Elphaba starts to bring her down a little bit. Glinda sort of brings her out of her shell. You see them at Oz. It's all very lovely and defying gravity. You're watching Elphaba fully come into her own. And because Glinda has been on her side this whole time, she's like, so you're coming, right? Right. And what Ariana's face gives you is it says so much. She said it's. It's a. I can't because That's. I just. I just can't. I love you so much, and I can't. And I won't like this. I love you. But this is where I draw the line.
- [87:33]
B
It was the moment where she went to the cape and she was looking at the greens.
- [87:37]
A
Yeah.
- [87:37]
B
She was like, no, not green.
- [87:39]
A
Black. Yeah. And it's because she, she cares for this person, and it's sort of where her. It's the limit of her empathy at this moment. And Cynthia's face when it happens is similar. It's actually a slightly more pained face than when Morrible calls her a wicked witch. I love how Cynthia's face drops to a very natural state of like, I let somebody in and they disappointed me. Me. And that's been my life. Every time she's like, basically sort of like, and there's the other shoe. Like, it's just sort of something in her has always been wary of.
- [88:13]
B
Just that moment comes twice. Like, she, she has that in Dancing Through Life when she walks in and she's like, how stupid of me to think that this wouldn't be a setup. You know how that's dumb. It's always gone this poorly. And then by the time we get to Defying Gravity, she's like, no, no, no. This is a true friend and has that too. But she also adds in this moment where when she's putting on the cape and she gives her this wink that's not written in the script. It was something that Cynthia just did of, like, it's okay. I'm okay. Because it's not just a decision for Glinda. There it is a. All of the skills and tools that Glinda has requires having a mass of people behind her. You know, like, that's, that's all she knows how to navigate. And so the idea of going with just one other person on this broomstick is so foreign to her that she, she's. I, I, she can't go. Like, she can't go.
- [89:10]
A
Yeah, it's, it's. It shows just how brave you are if you actually have something to lose, if you're willing to sacrifice it for a greater good, let's say. And it's touching at the Ozdust Ballroom because we're talking about school popularity, which ends up still working in Glinda's favor. Nothing she can do at shiz really can harm her. But in Defying Gravity, it's like, no, this is actually a real world stake that I don't want to lose, and I, I can't. And I Won't. And it's you. You don't vilify her for it. It's more sort of like, how can you be angry at someone for doing something that's totally in line with who they've always been?
- [89:51]
B
Yeah. I mean, it's. It's almost like the Regina George moment of having her titties cut out and she's like, I'm gonna rock it. Like, in Dancing Through Life. I. I don't think that the stakes for Glinda is losing her status. It is. I have this status, and I'm gonna use it to smooth this moment over. Like, I don't think that Glinda's doing that in fear of losing her status.
- [90:12]
A
I don't think she's doing it in fear. What I mean more is, like, in the stage show, you never have any doubt out that it's. That it's gonna work out okay for her. The movie they do sort of show that people don't immediately go on board with it. Like, there's. There is a fear with her two gays with Shenzhen and Fanny being like, what are you doing? Stop it.
- [90:30]
B
And yes, that's in the stage version, too. It's not as fleshed.
- [90:35]
A
I don't recall that. I recall in the stage. So her coming up to Elphaba and going, may I cut in? And then they just start.
- [90:42]
B
Friends that are on stage left, I think, and they, like, give her like a.
- [90:46]
A
What are you doing? What are you doing? But. Yeah, but it's not text and it's not like a beat beat. The two friends have always been there in the stage show. They're the ones who say, yes, you do. And I. It's. It's the same names. Fanny and Shen Shen again. Another friend wanted to make it known on the podcast when Bowen Yang was like, people are going to want to play Fanny in the stage show. And there is no Fanny. It's like, yes, there is a Fanny. It's just. It's not a boy and it's a. And it's in the. It's an ensemble track. Sorry, it's not principal. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Las Culturistas.
- [91:15]
B
But. So I did enjoy their added lines. That was funny.
- [91:18]
A
Yeah, I liked most of them.
- [91:20]
B
I mean, raise your hand.
- [91:22]
A
Yeah, Raise your hand was great. I love that one. I also love. Enroll here often. Yeah. What's something. I mean, I also want to talk about Ariana's acting and no one mourns the wicked, but what. Give me some things about Cynthia Ariana.
- [91:37]
B
That you you loved Cynthia I knew was going to be great. Cynthia I knew was going to be a 10 out of 10. There was never a question about that. And then Ariana Grande's casting, in her own words, was if as a fan of the show, if I heard about my casting, I would be pissed. And she wanted to earn every moment as an actor in this. And I think that that's not just respectable or commendable. It is executed. Did great. I think she did a great job.
- [92:07]
A
She really does.
- [92:08]
B
She was completely believable. I think that transferring that character into a palatable role for a three hour film, that's just half of it, is a very tall order. And I think she did a brilliant job of playing the truth of each one of those scenes. I have not seen Agalinda drive the popular scene through her scene partner completely. There's a lot of like, let me do this stick shtick for the audience to get my laugh and throw myself on the bed to get those laughs. But like, she played the intention of the scene from start to finish and had to because of the medium that they're doing it in.
- [92:49]
A
Somebody asked about Ariana singing in the movie that they found it lighter than they expected and they. They were asking questions about her upper register, perhaps, of like, is this choice. Is it about the delicate style of singing you have to do for film? It's harder to listen to the soundtrack in certain pockets and understand why she's as light as she is, unless you're watching the movie. Because there are moments when the camera is like up her nostril. So things like the. Where she gaslights Bach into asking Nessa to the dance. Like the camera is in her pores. So she's not gonna belt it like Cheno because it just. It would be ridiculous. That's why. That's a little more whispery singing. And I will also say, watching the movie, maybe it's the sound mixing, I don't know. But the beginning of no one mourns the wicked. She sounds better when I watch it than when I listen to it. And she doesn't sound bad on the soundtrack. Not at all. So, like, just first of all reminding people this, this is not a Russell Crowe situation. This is more of like, Ariana Grande is one of the best singers around and she sings this beautifully. But her break is also much higher than Chenoweth's. And this score was written for Kristin Chenoweth. Yes, but Ariana's Passaggio is much higher. So she. And she's choosing not to belt as much as she can. Because the whole point of Glinda is that she is light, she is airy. It's why, as we said earlier, Ariana was so gung ho about popular staying as it is, because she is a traditional sound, Glinda, and very light and fluttery. And so there are moments where she could absolutely hit it in chest voice. She has the notes, she has the rain change, but she's going into Nick's head voice. And because her break is higher, some of those notes are in the lower part of her passaggio. So it's not as with much gusto as it would be with Chenoweth, but it's not bad and it's not unsupported. Do you know what I mean?
- [94:34]
B
I completely agree. I completely agree. I also. This is so silly, but also this.
- [94:39]
A
Is why Joel and I are talking to you guys, because we are trained singers who discuss this all the time and we. We have these phrases.
- [94:46]
B
Well, I think that there is. As somebody who grew up without voice lessons, you are listening to these recordings and you are going to learn how to sing through mimicking. So, like everything about the actual show, the source material aside, I do think that there is an. There is a responsibility in these recordings to sing with a little bit of a technique that is going to support the future generations. So we don't have Annie's coming out and screaming for 75 million years. You know what I mean? This changed the Broadway ingenue expectation. You know, this show changed what is expected of you as a performer. And putting in the mixing and all, Eden Espinosa really helped that Elphaba be a healthy Elphaba in terms of her mixing, whereas Idina was a lot more acting based on. And then we had a whole generation of women coming after that, training their voices in a different way. So, that being said, having this version of Glinda that might be a little bit more fluttery and doesn't have that southern belt underneath it too, that there is. There is absolutely merit and beauty in having that sort of restraint and having that healthy technique in that score.
- [96:11]
A
Absolutely. And again, I think the lightness is intentional. It doesn't. It's not unsupported, it's not unhealthy. And her. The vocals of Ariana fit when you watch the whole come together, because it's again, like, this wasn't recorded or sung in a way to be like, well, this is about the listening experience when you're home in your car. Like, that's an added bonus. It's being sung for a movie. Movie. Everything is about how it comes together visually and audibly and it comes together phenomenally. No one mourns the Wicked. I need a moment to just say first of all, many positives I have about this song and we'll get to that as we get to the final tally of listeners most successful numbers. But I need to give major props to Madame Grande because this is the first time I've ever watched this number number and watched Glinda and can see the ties to where this song ends up when the story actually ends. Ends for us. Every other time I've watched no one mourns the Wicked. I'm like, awesome opening number. Love it. So. And then when we get to the end of the show and we come and we come full circle, I always feel a little bit gaslit because I'm like the Glinda we're watching Enter the Bubble now is not the Glinda we saw at the top of the show. It was much more veneery that it's not what like Ariana because it's part one. She can't give away too much. But if you or if you're a fan of the show, you watch her, you know exactly what she's doing. If you don't know the show, you're like, something's up. Because she's not. She's putting on a face. But I see cracks. What's happening here? And watching like when they come in with no one warns the Wicked. You watch how she's reacting to the Munchkins sing and she kind of like she's trying to keep pivoting the conversation and they keep coming back to the Wicked stuff. And then when they show up with the giant statue of Elphaba and they have the torch, you watch Ariana's face as she's looking at it and then they give her the torch and you watch her make the decision to throw it in like it is.
- [98:10]
B
She is.
- [98:12]
A
She is doing some phenomenal work. And I just need to say it. Yes, you. Well, you are.
- [98:17]
B
She's putting the scene leading into for good into when more it's the Wicked.
- [98:21]
A
Which is.
- [98:22]
B
Is so important. Yes, you have to.
- [98:24]
A
That is so important that her Glinda in no One mourns the Wicked is a Glinda who has just done for good. That is absolutely true.
- [98:30]
B
Completely agree.
- [98:31]
A
Whereas.
- [98:32]
B
Completely agree.
- [98:33]
A
Whereas other Glindas. And part of it is just like the nature of starting a show and then doing a 2 and hour and 40 minute journey. Glinda's come in and you're like, you're doing an opening number, and it's real. And I think part of it is because, like, this is the movie version. It's going to be immortalized. We're going to look at it forever. It's. I think it's just so intelligent and creative and artistically sincere to think about all of that and come at it with that approach. And.
- [99:01]
B
Well, especially because this is. This is a source material that is one giant Easter egg. Right? Like, yeah, everything about this is Easter egg, Easter egg, Easter egg, Easter egg. So being immortalized and having access to it, it 24 7. Because I will have a daily viewing of Wicked every single day. Like, they are going to hand you things more gratuitously. Like that opening sequence with the horse driving out of the castle. Like, yeah, come on. Who's.
- [99:27]
A
Who's on that horse? Yeah, who's on that horse, baby?
- [99:30]
B
Who's on the horse? I can think of it.
- [99:32]
A
And seeing the magnificent foursome walking forward on the yellow brick road. Yeah, it's. Someone also asked, and we can't really talk about it too much because it's a Part two question, but they're like, is act two of Wicked a little overly reliant on our knowledge of wizard of Oz? Like, does it actually work on its own? And I would argue that it works because the show's still running, so clearly something about Act 2 works. But I do think that they abandoned a couple of the threads that they start weaving in Act 1 in favor of now tying everything together to wizard of Oz. And I'm hoping with part two, because it's probably gonna also be two hours and 40 minutes.
- [100:12]
B
Probably five.
- [100:13]
A
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That'll allow them the time to delve into, like, wrapping up some of the stuff that act one had while still connecting things. Because you're right. The whole point of the story, even with the Gregory Maguire novel, is a giant Easter egg of, like, oh, so that's what happened there. And that's what that means. And I'll. Unless, like, it's. It's the most successful fanfic of all time. You know what I mean?
- [100:35]
B
For sure.
- [100:36]
A
Yeah.
- [100:36]
B
At its core is. Is nostalgic.
- [100:39]
A
Yes. Okay, we have a couple more questions, and then we're gonna do the tally. But first, Joel, we gotta take one last break. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're okay. And we're back. So Last question somebody asked. What? Oh, somebody also asked about the time dragon clock. It's just something in the book that. Yeah, I think it's like God in the book or something like that.
- [101:12]
B
Yeah, it's. It's like the official history Keeper of Oz.
- [101:16]
A
Yeah. And it's like ties into Elphaba's birth and all that other stuff. The musical used to talk about it and they cut pretty much all references of it and they just kept the dragon, so.
- [101:25]
B
Because the dragon was expensive and pretty.
- [101:27]
A
Yeah. And it was a fun way to start the show.
- [101:29]
B
It was.
- [101:31]
A
Next up we have A lot of.
- [101:33]
B
The show is bringing spectacle. Bringing a lot of spectacle into Back to Broadway. And that was a big piece of it too. Of like why the story kind of veers into these belting ladies and not focusing on the animal rights because it's just.
- [101:50]
A
It's epic, Epic, epic all the time. Epic. I also want to say I. I do listen to a couple of movie podcasts and two or three different ones that I listened to had the audacity to say that all of the good songs of Wicked are in part one and so they're worried about part two.
- [102:05]
B
I saw that too. How dare you.
- [102:07]
A
Yeah, I was like, listen. I'm like, listen. Is Defying Gravity like the most iconic song in the show. Inarguably. Yes. But like the anthem. Yes, but like I'm sorry, Act 2 has as long as your mind, no good deeds or good. Thank fucking goodness. We're just to be Ariana's second Oscar clip. You're welcome. Yes. Thank.
- [102:25]
B
And. And the I'm not that girl reprise. Like that. That one is the heart wrenching one. I actually one of those podcasts, it's. It's new rock stars. I really like new rock stars. And they were saying that Glinda's lines at the beginning of. And goodness knows the wicked lives are lonely. Goodness knows the wicked die alone. Is hers internally speaking about herself.
- [102:47]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [102:48]
B
I was like.
- [102:49]
A
Because think about it. By the end of the story, she is alone.
- [102:53]
B
It's this. It's the same story. It's almost parallel of these two women coming from completely different worlds, completely different tool sets, having to navigate the world alone.
- [103:02]
A
Yeah. And well. And when it's over, Elphaba may be out ostracized from Oz, but she is with somebody. Glinda, like Glinda has lost her friend. She has lost her fiance. She had. There's no one around around her. It's almost like she's doing a respawn at the End of the show. Slash when no one warns the Wicked. And there's a reason why she isn't clearing Elphaba's name. There's. There's a whole scene about that in the show. And so you're what. Which ties into Ariana's acting with the torch and all that stuff.
- [103:32]
B
But your way. My way. Your way. My way.
- [103:34]
A
Yeah. Yeah. It's just. It's. I'm very excited to see what they do because I think they did so much beautiful work on the. On this. And I actually don't mind the 40 extra hour and 45 for part two. Other questions somebody had was about the expanded orchestrations versus the Broadway orchestrations. And then also asking about can vocals be nuanced in a movie of Wicked? We already kind of discussed that. Orchestrations. I'll put it this way for me. Me and my life. Similar to the. You. You did a kickball change in bed. When I'm used to a pot of beret. There's things in the original orchestrations. We love a callback. There are things in the original orchestrations that I am just so used to and I just so associate with Wicked. So when I didn't hear them, it did take my ear a couple of re listens to get used to it. Like the original. Well, so like the original orchestrations I would describe as like quirkily epic, magically grand. Like there's a. There's a lot of. Of touches to it. Like there's that weird Harpsy Cordy thing in popular. There's like a. There's something in Dancing Through Life. Not just the guitar, but there's another instrument being used in it that gives it like a light aan touch. That's the only way I can describe it. And the movie is a little more Hollywood. I don't want to say streamlined, but just like Hollywood lush. And there's nothing wrong with it because it adds to the epicness of this movie.
- [104:54]
B
It just did take a nice nod to wizard of Oz, you know?
- [104:57]
A
Yeah, exactly. It just. It did take me a couple of listens to get used to it. The only thing that I miss and a friend of mine and I were wondering if it's maybe because they couldn't use this transition in Dancing Through Life because it's a dance transition. And maybe Wayne Cilento was like, you can use my dance music. But it's after Glinda gives Elphaba the hat out of the goodness of my heart drum. And the drums are going absolutely insane. I love it so much. I miss that. I miss it with every fiber of my being. I wish we could have had it. The transition we have in the movie.
- [105:36]
B
Is lovely in that cue going into the asda's ballroom and the proscenium lights up with those, like, oh, yeah. Seeing that for the first time was breathtaking.
- [105:45]
A
Also, also, I want to say, in regards to the orchestrations, people know how much I love of a percussion that in a stage show. And when I listen to the soundtrack and when I see the movie, I'm like, oh, they let the drummer go to town in this movie.
- [105:59]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [106:00]
A
Especially in. What is this feeling? There are moments when I'm like, oh, they, like. They gave him three lines of cocaine and they said, go nuts. And he.
- [106:06]
B
Well, they also allowed the audience to be smart on these orchestrations. They put in so many. They added the Easter eggs in all over the place. The wicked witch theme, but in a major key, when she's driving with the basket, like, 10 out of 10.
- [106:21]
A
Oh, there's. There's over the Rainbow in, like, two different transitions all over and follow Yellow.
- [106:25]
B
Brick Road and Ding dong, the witch is Dead. And the poppy field in the tulip field. I mean it. 10 out of 10. 10 out of 10.
- [106:31]
A
Yeah. Okay, so, Jolie. Yeah. Now's the part where I tell you what the listeners of the podcast voted in on Discord. I said, give me what you thought were the three most successful numbers of the movie. Now, now tell me, do you want me to go from most votes to least or least to most?
- [106:50]
B
Least to most?
- [106:51]
A
That okay? Oh, my God.
- [106:52]
B
Yeah.
- [106:53]
A
Not, I say not. You being predictable. So with one vote each is something bad, of course, which someone did write in legitimately because they said this song is. They said this song is always a skip for me on the cast album. And watching the movie, I was like, oh, I don't want to skip this. I like how this is being done. So it's like, like, yeah, no, they did. They did a nice job. One short day only has one vote. And I maintain it's because The Grimory is 90 seconds too long. That's not what they said. But I'm like, I think people would have been more into it.
- [107:27]
B
I just imagine watching this version of it that every single time somebody arrives on that bullet train, the whole entire, entire city of Oz is like, okay, guys, we got another one. Back to one. One short day. And they just sing it all on repeat all day long. And just every time the bullet train rolls in, they're like, ah, back to one.
- [107:49]
A
Yeah. It's the welcome. What a perfect town. Like, but, like, at an 11.
- [107:56]
B
Imagine the people in Manhattan having to do that every single time somebody rise into Penn Station.
- [108:01]
A
Yeah, Absolutely. Not like an Annie when they're singing nyc, I'm like, in real New York, we'd be like, get the. On my street. I got places to be. Okay, so again, with one vote each. Something bad. One short day. And I'm not that girl with.
- [108:16]
B
I'm not the girl. Really?
- [108:18]
A
Yeah. Then with three votes, we have the wizard and I And Defying gravity. Okay, with five votes, no one mourns. The Wicked with six votes. Dancing through life. With seven votes, Popular. And with nine votes. What is this field feeling?
- [108:38]
B
Wow.
- [108:38]
A
I will say, I think what is this feeling? Is the correct choice. I think there might be a bias because it's the one song that's on YouTube and so it's taken over all of social media with the choreography.
- [108:48]
B
The choreography is insane.
- [108:51]
A
I will say, though, even when I saw the movie, both times I was like this. I have no notes on this number. Not a single note. I think it's done perfectly.
- [108:58]
B
There's even down to the flex foot and that, like, Rhonda jam and that loathing you. I went back to, like, see the detail in the choreography of that as.
- [109:07]
A
But even, like, the storytelling because it's. It's something you can only do in a movie of. Right. Making it a montage of, like, all the times that they get on each other's nerves and how they're dealing with each other in school. And then I think it's ultimately the. It's the ultimate of, like, who's winning in this battle. Like, Glinda has all the school on her side and, like, Elphaba is being ostracized. But at the very end. At the very end of the song, like, Glinda catches Elphaba and Morrible, like, corresponding and being intimate with each other. And watch seeing Morebel be be, you know, so loving towards Alphabet. Like, it doesn't matter how many of the student body are on your side, Glenda Elphaba ultimately has what you want.
- [109:42]
B
Yeah, that. That.
- [109:44]
A
My.
- [109:44]
B
My, that. The added line of guess what. I can't hear your guesses because this is clever.
- [109:53]
A
Yeah.
- [109:53]
B
Amazing. 10 out of 10.
- [109:54]
A
Oh, also. Also the. The flipping back to each other in the beds of being inner monologue and then singing to each other. Yeah, well, my face is flushing. Yeah, it's so good.
- [110:03]
B
Hilarious. My only. My only note on that number. What the fuck are they eating on those Plates. What is happening in the dining hall? There is no food. There is no food on that fork or that knife. Go back, roll the tape. There's nothing. They are doing choreography, putting scratches on the flatware.
- [110:24]
A
My question is, what is it that alphaba is getting from that. That faucet? Because it's like steam is coming out. I'm like, is she getting. She's coming. A cappuccino extra hot. Okay, so then, Jolie, what are your. What would you say are your three favorite numbers from the movie?
- [110:41]
B
The things that I. Oh, that's a very, very tough question. I think that the numbers that were going to be the most difficult translating to screen, that were the most most successful were the changes that they made into Defying Gravity. I think that was absolutely necessary in order to make the buildup of the green girl flying for the first time. And that took a lot of building that to everything around her flying her entire life. And then now she's choosing that it's me and really, truly changing how that moment works. I don't think that. That. I don't think I've ever seen somebody make a choice of.
- [111:22]
A
Of.
- [111:23]
B
No. The actual flight comes from within side of me, and I'm the one that makes things fly. So therefore it's me that. That is something that is brilliant. And the way that they translated that to the screen. 10 out of 10. Popular was another one. Popular was very difficult to translate onto screen. And the gidgets and the doodads and the way that they did that while honoring ball gown. Toss, toss. That was incredible. And the ending, the added key changes on the end, that was fantastic. And they. It's on Interview. Stephen Schwartz, it said that he wanted to add that into the stage show. So things that they've added to this movie that they want to add into the stage show, we'll see how they do that down the line in 2026. I think I have an idea of what's going to happen.
- [112:11]
A
But.
- [112:12]
B
Yeah. And the dancing through life. That little tornado wheel that they created.
- [112:18]
A
Yeah. The library.
- [112:18]
B
I would say that those are my top three. Acting wise. I'm not that girl. Like, she acted the.
- [112:23]
A
Out of that. Yeah. Hot take. Cynthia is very good at what she does. My three are. What is this feeling popular and no one mourns the wicked.
- [112:36]
B
Yeah, that one's in there too.
- [112:38]
A
I. I was so pleasantly surprised. Still am, having not seen a total twice with how well they pulled off that number. Because it's ultimately like, for that show, you need to pull off the opening you need to pull off the finale. You. There. There can be bumps on the road in between them and with major highs. But, like, if you do not open strong and end strong, people are going to get lost.
- [112:59]
B
What did you think of the choreography adding, like, there was a lot of stomping.
- [113:03]
A
There was a lot of stomping. I view it like the 94 carousel when they did June is busting out all over. And they all stomped at the end. It's like. Like, eventually you get to a point where, like, when. When you can't speak anymore, you sing. When you can't sing anymore, you dance. When you can't dance anymore, I don't know. You stop. You stomp, stomp. Like, I don't know. I'm just so damn happy, but also angry. Stop. Stop.
- [113:27]
B
I loved it. I. I think that at. In Oz, it's not really electricity based. Right? Like, there's a lot more magic involved, so. And being connected to the earth. So having the choreography, having that energy drawing from the ground almost like in, like this almost Lion King ensemble number way, I think was very effective.
- [113:47]
A
I think my only notes on no one Mourns the Wicked. And they're not real notes, but it's just we had more than one child speak in it, and I wasn't thrilled about that. But then once that number was over, children didn't speak ever again. So I'm okay. I think I just got. I got nervous. I was like, oh, God, is this gonna be a child talking movie? Which is ironic for someone who thinks that Matilda is one of the best movie adaptations of a stage musical in years. But I went in knowing Matilda was gonna have children speaking. Right.
- [114:16]
B
Part of the contract.
- [114:16]
A
Exactly. With Wicked, I was like, oh, God, Children talking.
- [114:23]
B
Children will listen, not talk.
- [114:25]
A
No. Children must be seen. Never heard. Okay.
- [114:29]
B
Think of the animal story.
- [114:31]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [114:34]
B
I also thought Peter Dinklage did a fantastic job. And we never saw his.
- [114:37]
A
I mean, he did a fine job. His. His. Listen, his English accent, it's better than Annalee Ashford's. It's worse than Meryl Streep's. It's somewhere in the Middle Namin. Fair. It's fine. He does a perfectly fine English accent. I feel like he does the one that we all do at the end of freshman year of college where it's like, I'm getting better, but I'm still a little much.
- [114:56]
B
That's true. That's fair. That's very fair.
- [114:59]
A
Yeah. But I like Peter overall. Alrighty. I think that's where we. We leave things Off Jolie. Final notes, thoughts on Wickhead.
- [115:08]
B
I. I love Ice Dan. I. I think that so many movie adaptations and remakes and hocus pocus twos that are created, I think that so many of them are done so poorly. And this is. It knows the medium that it's in, and it knows the source material that is not the same medium. And they do a great job of picking the things that work on stage and changing the things to make it work in cinema. And also, really, truly honoring the wizard of Oz, I mean, Wicked on stage makes zero attempt at creating the world of wizard, of Ocean of Oz.
- [115:55]
A
Right.
- [115:55]
B
Like, it's very dark. The stage looks like a gymnasium. The. The. The floor is all tracked and everything's very industrial with the clockwork and all of that.
- [116:04]
A
And looks like the Musee d'. Orsay. The Musee d' Orsay in France. Right.
- [116:08]
B
And this.
- [116:08]
A
This me being a.
- [116:11]
B
You have that little.
- [116:13]
A
You.
- [116:13]
B
It starts with the. The. The pinwheel of the yellow brick road. And. Oh, loved that addition, too. Of which color should the yellow brick road be? That was super cute. Can't wait to see how that turns out in part two.
- [116:24]
A
Oh, that's another great Ariana line. I don't know. It just says road to me.
- [116:29]
B
I think they did a great job of doing fan service also while servicing the material and pandering to their audience, but also having their audience live in this world that means so much to so many people and also creating something that stands on its own.
- [116:46]
A
Absolutely.
- [116:46]
B
I think that very few movie musicals are able to do all of those things in one go.
- [116:53]
A
Yeah.
- [116:53]
B
And dividing it into two was ballsy. And I love it because I get to be an opening night of Wicked one more time, you know, after I've already done it as a teenager, you know, 1000%.
- [117:04]
A
I think there's a lesson I would like Hollywood to take away from this and the people making movie musicals going forward is if you're gonna be a movie musical, be a movie musical.
- [117:13]
B
Yes.
- [117:14]
A
And on top of that, like, the material you are adapting. Don't. It's not about. About how do I put my spin on this. It's not about how do I fix this. It's how do I take material that I really enjoy and make this fit a new way to tell the story. Right. Because no matter, like, even just being in the medium of film, it already alters it in some respect, as we were talking about, as you just said. And so I think that they do that very well here. And I think that the best movie adaptations of stage musicals do that shows movies like Chicago and Sounding Music in Olive silver. And then even ones that I consider silver tier, like, that they're on the roof or somewhere between gold and silver tier, like Hairspray. I can't rightfully say where in my top 10 it is definitely higher up. Like probably around like six or seven.
- [118:01]
B
Top five for you.
- [118:03]
A
It's top five for me. No, it's not. It's not top five for me. I. I think I've con. I think I've convinced myself tonight it's not top five. That top. That top five is really hard to crack. It's possible that part two could top. Could crack the top five if they. If they do what I think they.
- [118:19]
B
Could Story in part two, there's way more story.
- [118:21]
A
I know. I'm. I'm just saying bridges you crossed you didn't know you crossed till you crossed.
- [118:25]
B
I hate you.
- [118:27]
A
I'm getting that tattooed on both butt cheeks because I need to be reminded of it twice every day.
- [118:32]
B
Bridge over your T. Yeah.
- [118:34]
A
Well, the first thing I do when I wake up in the morning is I go into the bathroom and I look at my ass in the mirror. So I need to see. I need to see it on both cheeks to remind myself. Myself that there are simply bridges I crossed that I didn't know I crossed until I crossed them.
- [118:46]
B
Mazel tov.
- [118:47]
A
Thank you. So that is what I want people who are making movie musicals to remember in the future. Someone also asked about, like, Oscar chances. We don't know until we know. I. Right now, Wicked is sort of like halfway between Chicago and Barbie, where it's like, it is truly a massive box office hit. It is well received critically. Not Chicago level of praise, but more than Dreamgirls and more than Les Mis. So, like, it has respect, it has enthusiasm. And unlike Barbie, it has come out much later in the year and closer to Oscar season. That that momentum actually helps it right now. And musicals always have a prestige factor to them, so we'll see. I think there are a lot of things we can count on. Picture Ariana, Cynthia, even. Everything else is just bonus.
- [119:35]
B
What are you excited about in part two? Character development wise?
- [119:38]
A
I'm excited to see Ariana's final scene. I'm excited to see Cynthia's no good deed. I'm excited to see all of the Easter eggs crack the open.
- [119:46]
B
Megan omelet girl.
- [119:48]
A
Megan omelet girl. Supposedly Dorothy is in the movie. I don't think she talks much, but she's in it.
- [119:54]
B
She shouldn't.
- [119:55]
A
And The. But there's a rumor of who they have playing her and if it's who they say it is, I will be pleased. Who? The rumor is that it's the actress who played Matilda in the movie Matilda.
- [120:08]
B
Really?
- [120:09]
A
Yeah. And she's so exceptional in that movie. I'm like, yeah, please give her more work.
- [120:12]
B
Yeah, she was fantastic. Yeah, she's fantastic. I want to see. I want to see vocally how Cynthia Erivo gets us into the voice of the Wicked Witch, that there's that iconic no good deed moment where let of.
- [120:26]
A
All the odds be agreed, I'm wicked.
- [120:29]
B
So.
- [120:30]
A
And the cackle she does in the cat fight.
- [120:31]
B
Yeah, I'm excited for the cat fight.
- [120:34]
A
Yeah.
- [120:34]
B
I really want to see where she takes us vocally with that.
- [120:38]
A
Yeah.
- [120:39]
B
Very exciting. I can't wait to review part two with you. I'm inviting myself back.
- [120:43]
A
As well you should. I'm excited for it too. I'll see you in a year, baby. Jolie, where can people find you if you want them to find you?
- [120:49]
B
They shouldn't. No, I'm just kidding. I'm on Instagram.
- [120:52]
A
Thanks.
- [120:53]
B
And I. My Instagram handle is Joel M. Sparks on. In. In. In Instaface Place.
- [121:03]
A
Phenomenal. If you want to find me, guys, I'm on Instagram at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, give us a nice 5 star rating or review. I already read all of the new five star reviews in the first part of this episode. Thank you guys for all of that and I have nothing else to say. Join the Discord Channel yet if you have not done so join us back in two weeks when Gunkle of the Pod, Adam Ellsbury comes on to talk about the women for the Grab Bag series. And we're going to wrap those episodes up soon enough. It's going to be a little in and out from there. We close out every episode, Joel. With a diva that I put in post. But I was. And I normally ask the guests who they want, but I think that we're just going to close out with Ari and Cynthia. See you.
- [121:46]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [121:48]
A
Yeah, baby. Yeah. My.
- [121:52]
B
My initial idea. Absolutely. 10 out of 10.
- [121:55]
A
10 out of 10. That's what you always wanted. Okay, that's it, guys. We'll see you next week or in two weeks. We'll see you in two weeks. So take it away, gals.
- [122:03]
B
Bye.
- [122:04]
A
There are buildings tall as ques There are wonders like I've never seen it's all green, it's all green I think we found a place where we belong I want to be in this boy for long. So I'll be back for good someday make my life and make my way. But boy will wonder and enjoy the Emerald City One short day to have a lifetime of fun.